00:00:00.000 - 00:01:11.000

Mr. Speaker, I think you're going to enjoy this rarity. I've never had anyone of this background in my classes before. His name is Vladimir Zhukov, and he is a Soviet citizen. He was born in the Soviet Union, which is now called Commonwealth of the United States. He was born in the Soviet Union in 1935. In 1935, in the city that used to be called Leningrad is now called St. Petersburg. Now his background and his story is a little bit different than probably you'll ever hear any of the stories we've talked about this summer. In 1940, he was five years old. Now, you probably don't know the background about Leningrad, but Leningrad has a very long historic history. By the way, the name now has been changed to St. Petersburg, the name that it was under the time of the Romanovs. But Leningrad came under, this is also very historic, it's 51 years ago yesterday, Operation Barbarossa, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union and World War II began for Russia. But his story is interesting because Leningrad has a very historic history.

00:01:11.000 - 00:02:06.000

When the Germans invaded 51 years ago yesterday, they invaded three-pronged invasion. One group toward the south, toward Rostov-on-Don, one toward Moscow, one toward Leningrad. And then Army Group North, I think General Lee was the commander, attempted to take Leningrad. But the Russians saw them off very valiantly. And that city came under siege for 900 days. With one of the probably most historic survivals of World War II. Well, our speaker today was very fortunate to be able to be out of the city before that began. Otherwise, chances are he would not be here talking to us today. Because the cost of human life was tremendous. The Germans never took Leningrad. And eventually the Russians fought them back and were able to maintain control of the city.

00:02:06.000 - 00:03:09.000

He was lucky to be able to go with his family many, many miles to the east, to Central Asia, to a city probably you've never heard of before, a city called Tashkent. And is it in Uzbekistan? Uzbekistan, which is in Central Asia. And he lived there during the Second World War. Pretty far from the fighting front. But of course I'm sure they got news broadcasts, they got word. I'm sure they were probably fearful because if the Germans wouldn't have taken Moscow, they would have gone all the way probably to Rostov. And Tashkent would have been included in that sweep across that broad country. So what he is going to talk about today, now he is still a Soviet citizen. Next week he'll go back? In two weeks he's going back by home again. And visiting here are friends and relatives of the United States. So we're very fortunate to be able to get a viewpoint of someone who is, oh I was just a little bit older than he was during World War II. In 1940 I was about 11 years old.

00:03:09.000 - 00:04:13.000

And we have certain memories of those times, especially if they're traumatic. Being in the United States it wasn't that traumatic. I mean everybody fainted. The Soviet Union of course was. Many, many shortages. Many, many hardships. So what I want him to do is try to think back as far back as he can of those very early days and what it was like during the war. But more importantly what it was like to return home to Leningrad after that nine-thirty siege. And to see the destruction and to find out what his feelings were at that time about World War II and about the Germans. And also maybe about the Communist state. Stalin was still the dictator of Russia at that time and will remain so until 1953. So we're very, very fortunate today to be able to get an eyewitness account, a viewpoint from someone who was in a country who was an ally of the United States during World War II. And then unfortunately during the Cold War we separated but now we're back together again.

00:04:13.000 - 00:05:14.000

So I welcome you today and you can tell us your story. We appreciate it. Thank you for having me here. I don't have any experience to talk with children, especially when I'm an American. Children so, and I never talked publicly about my memories connected to the war. So I will be maybe a little clumsy in my impressions of what I remember. But I think that you have some general picture of what happened and how little boy at that time felt. I remember that you see in our city, in Leningrad, it was custom for people to go to suburbs during the summer. And the summer means that it is June, July, and August.

00:05:14.000 - 00:06:19.000

And usually parents tried to take children south of the city because the city was industrial. And at that time, and now also, unfortunately it was very polluted. Our house was very near the power station which worked on coal. And the window of our room, which was just opposite this power station, was always filled with smoke. And so for children to go to suburbs was very fortunate. And eventually, 2nd of June was the summer. And I remember it was Sunday. And Germans began the attack on the Soviet Union in the night from Saturday to Sunday. They made attack on many directions.

00:06:19.000 - 00:07:26.000

And Leningrad at that time was very far from western parts of this country where Germans really attacked and where they took the tanks mostly and also infantry. I remember that in the morning of Sunday, people were shocked that there were some unidentified airplanes flying in the place where we stayed during the summer. The place was about 20 or 22 miles from Leningrad at that time. And the Finns' boat was very close. But some airplanes came. They didn't bomb at that time, but there were some shots at the place during the night. So the people in the morning knew that something happened.

00:07:26.000 - 00:08:39.000

My parents knew about this, I think, after they were awake. And they went to the... You see, at that time, radio was the main source of information, no TV. And there were radios which were placed on the poles on which electric power went. Electric circuit. And those poles were also gadgets which made radio. And in the morning, one of the deputies of Stalin, he was a foreign minister at that time. His name was Volkov. He announced that the war began. And I remember how people were shocked because everybody knew that the war with Germans was inevitable.

00:08:39.000 - 00:09:47.000

But nevertheless, they hoped that it would happen so quickly because two years before that date, Stalin made a pact with Hitler. This pact he held, Stalin held, would postpone the beginning of the war. But that was, I think, and many historians now think that that was his mistake because it permitted him to begin the war in the West. To take France, to attack British isles, and so on. And at that time, our country had provided him with the raw materials such as oil, grain, because at that time we didn't buy. Our agriculture wasn't still so destroyed as now. So we provided Germans with many very useful for them things to carry out the war in the West.

00:09:47.000 - 00:11:10.000

So the war in that sense for people was unexpected, although Stalin himself obtained a mass information about the German preparation for the war because it was evident that it was not easy to begin the war without previous concentration of troops on the border. And the border between Russia and Germany at that time was in the previous Poland, which was divided for that war, Soviet Union and Germans, Stalin and Hitler. So there was a mass German concentration of troops. But Stalin was so afraid that he didn't really prepare for the beginning of the war. And that explained how Germans very quickly moved very deep into the country. And the people understood who were in Leningrad that the Germans would come in a very short time to Leningrad. And there was the beginning of so-called evacuation of the citizens, especially children.

00:11:10.000 - 00:12:19.000

I didn't go to kindergartens. After the beginning of the war, we returned from Dachau, as we call this place, during the summer. We returned to Leningrad. And the authorities decided to take all children of kindergarten age and maybe some of the school children, I don't know, and to take them to some... pack them together and in groups to move from Leningrad. And I remember, personally, I was in something, how some... a couple who came after me and they practically tried to take me out of the room where we lived. And my parents take me for another and didn't permit them to take me. And it was very fortunate for me because it was the time of cares.

00:12:19.000 - 00:13:29.000

And the children that they collected were put in the trail cars and these trail cars were moved not to the east from Germans, but they were moved to the, I don't say to the southwest, in the direction of coming German troops. And all these children eventually came into the region, was very shortly occupied by Germans. So the destiny of these children, I think they all were dead very quickly. So I was saved. And at that point there was a lucky accident that my father did not work at that time. The period during this, it's necessary to say some words about that period. Stalin was, maybe you heard that Stalin liked to have many people imprisoned. Most of them were imprisoned and sentenced as counter-revolutionary.

00:13:29.000 - 00:14:38.000

For example, what was counter-revolutionary? First of all, nothing at all. Just the position of this person was such that he had some power and in order for him not to make greater power and greater influence, he was just arrested without any serious, without any real crime. But after arrest he was usually accused of spying. At that time mostly for British people, for British, for French, for Germany, sometimes for Japan. At that time USA had not any strong relations with the US and it was considered somewhat neutral country. So most so-called spies were not connected with your country, but mostly from neighboring countries. But there were also people who were sentenced to long term imprisonment not only for this so-called counter-revolutionary activities. There was no such activity, but at least they were accused of that.

00:14:38.000 - 00:15:36.000

And the minimum sentence was 10 years of hard labor on campus. Minimum. And there were also people who were sentenced for every, basically for everything. And in one of the Solzhenitsyn's novels, there were people who were imprisoned, discussed at what time it was better to get into prison. 20, 30, or 40. What is better? For example, if you are arrested at 20, you are not more mature enough, so your life may be more ruined if you are arrested at 30, when you become more adult, and you will easily tackle the difficulties, and when you are released, you will continue to be a citizen, to have some life.

00:15:36.000 - 00:16:16.000

So everybody knew about the possibility of arrest. My father, he was a bookkeeper, accountant, such, some, all this kind. But he was a chief among some. And as a chief, he was accused of so-called negligence. It was anybody could be accused of negligence. For example, your teacher, some person would come and see that he did not fill, for example, necessary roles in his note. And he would be, maybe could be accused in our country of negligence and sentenced to three or four years of prison. It was so.

00:16:16.000 - 00:16:52.000

And my father was accused, he was at that time accused and sentenced to three years of prison. But he was not put into prison because prisons were, I think, they were overcrowded. They were not placed. And as he was not a serious, his crime was not a serious one, so he was, his documents were with him. And he, and by his help, he was free from unnecessary army service.

00:16:52.000 - 00:17:33.000

And he was, at the beginning of this time, he was able to leave Leningrad. And his friend, a lawyer, said to him that, "For you, it was lucky that the war began because you are able now to leave the city without any trouble." And so we left. I remember we left in the end of July, about a month from the beginning of the war. At that time, what I remember, personally, I remember that people said that the bombing began from aircrafts, but on a very small scale.

00:17:33.000 - 00:18:11.000

Practically, it was some sort of a show from German part, I think, because it didn't make any serious damage to the city. Only some persons were killed or wounded, but mostly it had some psychological effect, very strong, because people in the big city, which were rather far from the western border, already felt the impact a little. And first of all, I remember how products from the store disappeared immediately.

00:18:11.000 - 00:18:59.000

Such products of long use, such as sugar, for example, flour, they disappeared immediately. And I remember also how the people were instructed to put tapes of paper on windows, in order in future bomb attacks or shelling by artillery, the window will somehow withstand the air wave, which develops after the blow, the explosion of the bomb or shell.

00:18:59.000 - 00:19:48.000

These were preparations. And we went at first in usual trail cars, then we were placed in so-called, I don't know the name, maybe cattle cars. Cattle cars, you know, the cars where the different products moved from one place to another, and they opened windows, they opened small windows, a couple of small windows for air, not for people. And to move people in such cars, they made special benches in the roads, and we went in such conditions.

00:19:48.000 - 00:20:18.000

Then we came to, it was a very long affair. Usually, the train at that time took from Leningrad to Tashkent five days, but we were more than 20 days, because we rode in these cattle cars. We came to Volga, and Volga has a large city there, which at that time was called Gorky, it was the name of Russian Soviet driver.

00:20:18.000 - 00:20:48.000

Some of you probably saw Gorky Park, that movie. It's for his name. There are many places and streets in Russia which were called Gorky. This was a large city, and there we were transferred from this car to, I remember, to some steamer, which at that time was a very wide river, and there were steamers to move people.

00:20:48.000 - 00:21:26.000

And we were placed in a good cabin, because we were three people, father, mother, and I. And so, I remember how people were disappointed, we were the first to catch this cabin, because most of the other people who were not so lucky were placed just on outside cabins, on open. And at that time, some Germans, I remember, it was at night, and Germans' planes came,

00:21:26.000 - 00:21:55.000

and not far from us, bombs fell, and people were very afraid. But I was less than six years old, so I didn't feel any fear at that time, because for me, I remember, it was just some interesting thing, because I heard explosions, somewhere fire began, and artillery from anti-aircraft artillery began to strike.

00:21:55.000 - 00:22:19.000

So there was one another in there, it was all interesting, and all was during the night, and people ran and shouted on this boat. And then we went along the river for several days, and then in some place, I don't remember, somewhere down the river, we were placed against into cars.

00:22:19.000 - 00:22:49.000

But this time, they were very funny cars, I think they were previous, beginning of the century, because they were very short, as carriage, horse carriage, they were so short. They were entry not on the, it was not a long car, in the modern car, there was entry mostly on the ends of the car, but there was every separate, they were divided into separate compartments,

00:22:49.000 - 00:23:19.000

and every compartment had an engine from the, his own, his own end. So we moved as carriage, and then we came to Tashkent. Tashkent at that time was very peaceful city, they did not feel any war at that time. And there were many, at that we were first evacuated people, we were first to come,

00:23:19.000 - 00:23:51.000

and we came to relatives, and we lived with them for the whole four years, in crowded condition, but at least we were relatives. But later, many people began to be evacuated to Central Asia, not only to Central, but what I remember. People were put, the people were obliged to give to these newcomers parts of their apartments.

00:23:51.000 - 00:24:16.000

So the condition was very crowded. But at least in Tashkent there were no hunger. Their food was rationed, so it was possible to get special, I don't know. Special books were in stash.

00:24:16.000 - 00:24:44.000

Yes, we went every day to some place where they sell bread, and sold bread, and they took some of this bread themselves. But there was no real hunger in Tashkent, it was rather peaceful. But later, there were many, when the people came from other places, from Ukraine, refugees,

00:24:44.000 - 00:25:18.000

there was a sharp increase in food prices, and there were many crimes, because people tried. And there were also, I remember, there were many people who bribed authorities not to be taken to the active army. Young and healthy men were paid bribes, and there were many well-known trials, for example, many famous doctors, medical doctors,

00:25:18.000 - 00:25:49.000

were accused of providing these people with false documents, which permitted them not to go to the active army. So there were, although the people really struggled against the Germans, and only their real struggle, and this is committed by the Soviet Union to survive and crush their real efforts. But many people elated, many people tried to elate.

00:25:49.000 - 00:26:26.000

This was my, I went to school, and I don't remember anything, anything which was more or less, we followed certainly all movements, because when the Germans took practically all European part of the, they went up to the wall, it's very far down, deep in the country. And so, if they crossed, if they had crossed the wall, in that case, all roads to Siberia,

00:26:26.000 - 00:26:58.000

and to the south, to Central Asia republics were open for them. And they also wanted to conquer Caucasus, and in that case, they were able also to enter Turkey. And there was another attack from Africa, so they wanted to make a circle and to take all Arab points into their hands. And from Central Asia, they could move into India, so Hitler split.

00:26:58.000 - 00:27:27.000

Fortunately, he failed. And I more, I, when, and after the war, the war ended in '45, in May of '45, and our family returned to the, to the Ukraine, in September '45. And during the war, I, my younger brother was born in Tashkent, so we returned home.

00:27:27.000 - 00:28:03.000

And you must know that in our country, after revolution, there appeared new phenomena in housing, so-called communal flats, apartments. This was previously, for example, before revolution, had a separate apartment, consisting, for example, of four, six rooms. Leningrad, St. Petersburg was a capital city, so there were many rich and wealthy people at that time.

00:28:03.000 - 00:28:38.000

And they occupied large apartments from ten rooms, the least were three rooms, with a kitchen. And after revolution, these apartments were confiscated from owners, and in, for example, if apartment had six rooms, in that apartment lived six families. Every family had only one room for them, and they had mutual kitchen, not every time lunch.

00:28:38.000 - 00:29:10.000

And this period, I remember very well, because, and before the revolution, we had only one room, but now, after revolution, after, before the war, we had, we had four, three men in a room. But now we have practically four, and room was rather small, I think, up to that wall, and here, such space was.

00:29:10.000 - 00:29:41.000

And in other three rooms, there lived two other families. And especially the crowded apartments in Leningrad were after the war, because many houses were destroyed during the siege of Leningrad. They were destroyed sometimes by shelling and German bombs, but mostly, mostly by fires.

00:29:41.000 - 00:30:13.000

Because people, for example, left fire and smoke fire, led to the destruction of the house, because fire brigade didn't work, they were not enough. Many, many buildings were destroyed by usual fire, not by bombardment. It was not very effective in bombardment, or they were shelled by artillery and bombs.

00:30:13.000 - 00:30:41.000

And so when we came, for example, when we returned our house, our buildings were, the house near it was destroyed, the next to it, on the same side of the street, was destroyed, and two houses opposite were destroyed. Not every, for example, one building stayed, remained, and our building was destroyed,

00:30:41.000 - 00:31:12.000

the neighboring building was destroyed. And the people were less numerous than before the war, and the conditions were very different after Tashkent, because the climate, for example, in St. Petersburg was much colder, very cold, winter especially. And when we returned, our room was very cold, I will say the temperature there was in the mornings

00:31:12.000 - 00:31:52.000

something like 45 in the morning, 25. And it rose up to 55 or 60 the most during the winter solstice, and it was very cold all the day. And there were many, many, many difficulties in everyday life, because, for example, my brother at that time was one year old, and for him, for such small children, they provided milk.

00:31:52.000 - 00:32:24.000

And I went usually, and at that time, most of the products, wheat and milk, imported from, it was given by your country. We had pork, canned pork, big, big canned pork, oxes of such size. They were very famous because all our army was friendly with pork, canned pork.

00:32:24.000 - 00:32:48.000

And also the milk powder, correct? Milk powder. - Convection water, right? - Yes. And from this, they prepared milk which was distributed among small children, baby toddlers. And I remember how I every day went to the special, it was in the store, but in some special apartment

00:32:48.000 - 00:33:17.000

they just distributed these bottles of milk for small children. No, you must understand that children at the age of 10, they don't very pity themselves that they don't have enough clothing. At that time, it was not. The life went for children. We played soccer. Soccer was the most, you know soccer.

00:33:17.000 - 00:33:49.000

It's not your foot, it's also called, in our country it's called football, but it's what's called, not your football, but only where the ball is moved by, pushed by, where it's all, hit and back. So this is the, it was very popular and we played every day. In the ruins of, practically near the ruins of the house, there were many small places

00:33:49.000 - 00:34:22.000

where we just prepared it and played there. I had a deodorant because there was always cold. Therefore, at the time, cold was one of the main providers of heat during the winter and cold. I remember the school where I went, it had always mountains of coal and we played near it

00:34:22.000 - 00:34:57.000

and so we went, we became colder as people who cleaned the chimneys. But for children, I think it was much easier. I remember, I didn't feel hungry myself, really hungry, because somehow my parents managed to provide me with food, but I remember when I went to classes and took sandwiches with me, always, I never ate them myself, only myself.

00:34:57.000 - 00:35:26.000

They were so-called "braided" sandwiches, expression "braided." Your friend came to you and said, "Braided" means that I divided my sandwich into parts, because some people were in the reverse position, went out. And that continued, I think, for a couple of years, such a very difficult situation with food.

00:35:26.000 - 00:35:45.000

For example, such thing as cake was a very great, very great rarity. It was some feast when it was possible to buy cake. And... How about eggs? Could you eat eggs?

00:35:45.000 - 00:36:19.000

I don't remember. I don't remember. I remember that, for example, my parents, at that time, if they, friends or relatives came to them, their main, what they ate was, we have special mixture of vegetables, it was beet, red beet, potato, and salt pickles. Not much meat.

00:36:19.000 - 00:36:48.000

Not much meat. Instead of meat, mostly curing, I think, salt curing, as a company, which accompanied vodka. So, they just prepared this, so it was called "vinegrette," this dish, this food. It was cheap and filling, and it was good with vodka. Vodka was always a flavor of the small quantities.

00:36:48.000 - 00:37:22.000

People also get some alcohol from the enterprise, the rock, and they diluted it, used it as vodka. Only wine was practically absent, and it was vodka, the four parties, and... But there was some, at first, there was some feeling of, some feeling of elation after the war. People hoped that somehow the life would be much better after the war.

00:37:22.000 - 00:37:59.000

But after the war, our great leader, Stalin, instead of trying to improve the position of his own people, tried to conquer as much as possible. For example, he subjugated half of Europe, up to Austria, and part of Germany, and many other places, he stole these countries, controlled by Russians, and he, at that time, the USA helped West Europe to revive

00:37:59.000 - 00:38:41.000

after the war by so-called "martials," where he gave money, the USA gave money, and Western countries used it very effectively. Now, for example, West Germany was in a very bad condition after the war, because besides destruction caused by the war, some of its most valuable factories and enterprises were just taken from them to Russia, for example, as a contribution. So they were in very bad form, the West Germans, until '48 or '49, I think, or at least three years,

00:38:41.000 - 00:39:20.000

they were in the condition which reminds our condition now. There were shortages of everything, black market, and then when Marshall began to work, and their own economic policy was very effective, they are now, as you know, one of the most forward countries in economics. But in our country, this didn't happen. Stalin refused to plan Marshall, and all resources after the war were directed to the sustained huge military force.

00:39:20.000 - 00:40:09.000

It was the beginning of so-called Cold War. But I remember that when I was, I think, 20, I read some book by an American author. It's not known, I think, by everyone. Stephen Gale was such an author. Do you remember such an author? Stephen Gale. Stephen Gale. In our country, we translated and published in English only books of communist writers here. And we didn't know anything about your country. But I was amazed that book described America during the war, '42, '43.

00:40:09.000 - 00:40:52.000

And I did not, when I read, I did not feel that your country was in the war, because there were no shortages in everything. Your grandparents and their grandparents just lived the same life on material sense. They were afraid that they would be murdered during, they were killed in the war. They were afraid for their children, for their relatives, and so on. But on material sense, there were no shortages. In all that thick volume, there was never any mentioning of any shortages of anything.

00:40:52.000 - 00:41:37.000

It was just that somewhere people, Americans, may be killed. This was the main, the only... It was serious concern. Serious concern. But, for example, in British Isles, they have also rationing of food and shortages. They felt war by bombardments and also by the shortages in clothing and everything. But in this country, we didn't feel it, fortunately. So, I remember that one of the interesting consequences, which, when I grew older, was that when I became interested in girls,

00:41:37.000 - 00:42:43.000

I remember that at that time, many girls of my age were bowlegged. Bowlegged. Let's demonstrate by bowlegged. Mostly, the doctors say that it was connected with the absence of vitamin D, which is in butter and some other things. And girls of all ages, which were younger, in 50s, they had normal legs. It was just I remember this. And the present generation is taller because they are taking more normal food. So, although, as a young boy, I did not feel so...

00:42:43.000 - 00:43:35.000

in such force, the circumstances which all adults felt because it was less... I wasn't seriously deprived. I was deprived of tasty things and so on. But it was not my burden to provide family. So, I was just... I studied. I played soccer and some other things. But the parents... The parents suffered more because they had some responsibilities to provide. And only in five years, in four or five years after the war, life became easier. And in 50s, it was more or less, by our standards, at least, was more normal. But food stopped to be a problem.

00:43:35.000 - 00:44:39.000

Although, we continued to live in the same crowded conditions. So, my... to sum up, it was... I was fortunate that I was left in Leningrad because I certainly wouldn't survive the practically impossible war. You know who died mostly? Mostly died children because they... Malnutrition. Malnutrition. And children, in some sense, demand more food than adults. And it was especially between 14 and 18 when they especially grow. And they got a very small... and they were forced to die of hunger during the siege. During the siege, more than a million people died. Most of them of hunger. And because of the hunger and cold. It was... the first winter of war was very cold. Very cold.

00:44:39.000 - 00:45:28.000

And this combination of cold and absence of food was... has very serious effect. People just died of this combination. And after the war, this continued, this shortages. But in three or four years, they somehow, this shortages lessened and life became more normal. Although, we didn't use opportunities to become more normal society at that time. As I said, all our main resources were directed into development of huge army and military installations. So these are my impressions. In short...

00:45:28.000 - 00:46:09.000

Now we might have some questions. I was going to ask you this. Were you conscripted into the Soviet army? Did you ever have to serve in the army? I was a student. And students were... we were so called... system... we in universities, we studied some military... we had some military training once a week. And after that we went to military campus for a month. Some camp. But you never had to serve actively?

00:46:09.000 - 00:46:14.000

No. Did you go to university? Yes. In Leningrad?

00:46:14.000 - 00:46:19.000

In Leningrad. And what did you major in? What subject? Physics. Physics?

00:46:19.000 - 00:46:32.000

Yes. Then did you teach that later or did you work in industry? I was in research science. In academia. Oh, I see. You were a research scientist and academic scientist.

00:46:32.000 - 00:47:13.000

Ask some more questions. Why pick his brain? It's okay. Yes. After the war, you said how it returns to normal life. I was wondering when Stalin died, was there like... what was the feeling? I remember very well the feeling because I was 17 at that time. I was also a student. I never felt any special love for Stalin. There were great admirers of him, even on his stereotype admirers.

00:47:13.000 - 00:48:15.000

And when he died, many people cried because they were so afraid that the life would stop. And the people... I did not really very much regret. But I don't remember for certain because the next year I was explained the lessons about society and from that period I understood what Stalin really was. But at that period I regretted his death but I didn't feel it as a catastrophe. But many people felt it as a catastrophe. And in Moscow, his body was exposed for a couple of days and people made great lines, crowds, and they wanted to see him before he was put into mausoleum beside the lake.

00:48:15.000 - 00:49:04.000

And the crowds were so huge and it was impossible for authorities to control them and many people were stupefied. They died of this. Because you must understand, millions of people moving in one direction and if somebody fell, there was no place for him to get up. And I remember very well that one of my acquaintances accidentally went to Moscow just at that period. And when he returned, he with such wide eyes described very dramatic stories how people were put to death by these crowds, trampled on, trampled on.

00:49:04.000 - 00:49:58.000

And also I remember I was a younger friend who, maybe at that time I was 21 or 22, who very vividly understood who Stalin was and what was the system. And when I told him about how people wanted to say farewell to Stalin, sincerely, and he said there were so much crowds, they all wanted to go to Stalin, and he said the following, I remember. I understand them. Everybody wanted to know by his own eyes that he was really dead. At that time for me it was a little shocking. Although I was not too shocked, but it was a little shocking for me because I still considered him a leader, maybe with some shortcomings.

00:49:58.000 - 00:50:39.000

I heard about arrest. We felt fear. For example, the sense of fear. What was the sense of fear at that time? Before the war, the people were, especially in '37 and '38, the people were very much afraid of arrest. And arrests were usually made during the night. And the knock at the door during the night meant that you would be arrested. And I remember how my relatives and their friends lived close to each other on the same floor.

00:50:39.000 - 00:51:34.000

And we would have a New Year party. And I remember I was two or three years old. I remember we were children. We were also not asleep. We were happy. There was such a merry atmosphere and many good things to eat and so on. And I remember how at 3 or 4 a.m. people usually don't sleep in Russia, on the first of January, on the 13th. And there was a sharp knock at the door. And all merriment disappeared because people decided that somebody came after the hostess.

00:51:34.000 - 00:52:16.000

But fortunately it was not KGB people, but maids. After that period, many families had very cheap servants, which were the victims of collectivization. And these girls went to the city and they didn't have any speciality. They just lived for food and room with their families. And these maids of my family went somewhere, drank a little, were very merry and cheerful. And when they returned, they just made a small knock, nobody heard.

00:52:16.000 - 00:52:52.000

And then they began to knock strongly. And this strong knock liquidated all merriment for the party. So the people were really afraid. And so I understood that Stalin was not a very good person in everything. But at least many people thought that he really saved the country from Germany. So the people were very disappointed. They had real sorrow that he had died. Very sorrow.

00:52:52.000 - 00:53:32.000

And still now there are young generation which consider him as a great leader and savior of the nation. But most people now understand who he was. But at that time, it was among most of the people, it was just a great disaster that he died. Everybody was afraid that the people, the life would stop. You talked about the blood purge in Germany in '34, the Moscow trials in '38. Those were very serious.

00:53:32.000 - 00:53:57.000

You talked about purging, purging the party. He just cleaned house and put his people in. But it is impossible to compare the scales of purging in Germany and in Russia. Much greater in Russia. In Russia it was several orders of magnitude larger. Hitler maybe destroyed tens of thousands, but he was tens of millions.

00:53:57.000 - 00:54:17.000

In fact, the casualties during the war, I think, in Soviet Union was over 20 million people. More than that. More than that. That was casualties. But there was also the Gulag. It was considered by some authors that it is half a nation. Before the revolution, Russia had 150 million people.

00:54:17.000 - 00:54:45.000

And during this tragic events from '14, from the First World War up to the death of Stalin, more than 60 or 70 million died. 60 or 70 million people died in World War I. Two wars, purges, collectivization, when the best peasants were sent away. And these were the main reasons for the collectivization.

00:54:45.000 - 00:55:04.000

But we now ask grain from everybody. Because previously, before revolution, Russia exported grain in great quantity. But they destroyed agriculture. It was very easy to destroy. Very difficult to destroy. Were you forced to join the party at all during the revolution?

00:55:04.000 - 00:55:11.000

No, I never was. And not your father either? No, not my father. That was very lucky.

00:55:11.000 - 00:55:52.000

But still you could go through and teach, but you did not have to be a party member? As a party member, I was not permitted to have an administrative position. And in science, especially older generation during the war, who produced armory, and science, scientific men were permitted to be also administrators without being party members. It was only for people working in science, such as physics, mathematics, chemistry, which was connected with armory, military interests.

00:55:52.000 - 00:56:17.000

But the persons who studied, for example, and made research in humanities, are all administrators. And not only administrators, but usually, for example, historians were necessary, had to be party members. Because humanities is considered to be ideological, and for these purposes they had to be party members. Did you ever have a chance to meet Sakharov?

00:56:17.000 - 00:56:23.000

I... Sakharov. What? Did you ever have a chance to meet him or see him?

00:56:23.000 - 00:56:30.000

No, no. Was he forced into the party? Probably not, due to science. He was not a party member. No.

00:56:30.000 - 00:56:44.000

He was not. He lived in Moscow. Yes, okay. One more question. Yeah. Was there, during the war, a feeling of great pride in your country, and was there a reason, like, for soldiers to fight for you?

00:56:44.000 - 00:57:13.000

Yes, after the war, there was a great pride. And this pride was used by Stalin to develop chauvinistic feelings. Because practically all ideals of socialism, they died during the war. And after the war, our country was not... it became a national chauvinistic society.

00:57:13.000 - 00:57:46.000

Because, for example, there was very strong anti-Semitism, very strong. Practically, if Stalin hadn't died, and he lived, for example, a year more, all Jews were destroyed. He prepared, and there were many executions of Jews. And the anti-Semitic feelings were very strong, and they were also stimulated mostly by Stalin.

00:57:46.000 - 00:58:15.000

And he used this pride of the war, of the results of the war, not for productive purposes, but for strengthening the chauvinistic attitude to other people. And, for example, our main enemy became Americans. See, they called him, too. He used a lot of psychological warfare concepts.

00:58:15.000 - 00:58:29.000

He called World War II the Great Patriotic War, and that was very important to the Russian people. The last time they used that term was during the Napoleon invasion. So that's what got the Russian people behind the war. They were some of the best and toughest fighters, because they were fighting for Mother Russia.

00:58:29.000 - 00:58:56.000

Not for communism, not for Joseph Stalin, but for Mother Russia. But it was a mixture, because most of the people attributed the achievement of the war, the victory, to Stalin. Do we have one more question? Anybody else have any comments?

00:58:56.000 - 00:59:12.000

Yes. How did you feel towards the Allies, because it took them so long to accept? It's a very interesting story, because during the war, you and the British were considered our allies. And we saw American movies, I remember.

00:59:12.000 - 00:59:57.000

We saw American speeches. And the only, I think, accusation that you have meddled, you didn't force very quickly, the opening of the war, the Second Front, so-called the Second Front. But mostly the attitude, official attitude, was as you are our allies. And so it was possible at that time to read, for example, there was a Russian English paper in Russia, newspaper, it was called British Ally.

00:59:57.000 - 01:00:21.000

I remember this. And they didn't jam, although during the war, all radios were confiscated. And after the war it turned. And for some period, for a couple of years, they didn't jam BBC, mostly at that time BBC translated, made broadcast, British broadcast.

01:00:21.000 - 01:00:55.000

From Russian to their BBC broadcast in Russian, so they could keep up with what was going on the rest of the world. Because the Cold War began not immediately, because for a couple of years it was just signs of it, not the real Cold War. But in '47, all the relations were practically broken, and the jamming was beginning at that time. And from the Allies, Americans and British became our enemies, Churchill especially.

01:00:55.000 - 01:01:21.000

Because Roosevelt always had a more mild attitude to Russia, to Soviet Union. Churchill understood, and he made a famous speech in '46 in Fulton, in some university. What's Mr. Collins about the anchor curtain? From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic. And he predicted how the events would develop.

01:01:21.000 - 01:01:40.000

He said that Russia would try to strengthen its influence over Eastern Europe and Western Europe. And he predicted, unfortunately, it would be... So, his attitude changed. During the war...

01:01:40.000 - 01:01:56.000

During the war with the Mendeleys and so forth, they kept Russia alive, the Mendeleys. Practically, I remember all the trucks were American. Ford, Studebaker was such a very powerful truck. General Motors, Ford, Chevy?

01:01:56.000 - 01:02:09.000

Cheaps. Cheaps, I remember very well. All our famous rocket fire... Bazooka?

01:02:09.000 - 01:02:21.000

Bazooka type. They were first used mostly by Russians, and they were placed on Studebaker. Oh, yeah, these were rockets, mobile rockets. Mobile, small rockets, not far away.

01:02:21.000 - 01:02:32.000

Very good. Several hundred meters away. They also probably had the best tank in the world in World War II, the T-34. Soviet tank.

01:02:32.000 - 01:02:45.000

Anything else? Any other questions? Okay, we certainly love you, I appreciate you coming in. I must compliment you on your English.

01:02:45.000 - 01:02:54.000

Par excellence. I could not be that good in Russian. I may adhere to history, how I became interested in English. Very good.

01:02:54.000 - 01:03:23.000

The story connected to our political situation. I wanted to know news. And it was practically impossible because newspapers were false, and jamming was of such strength that it was practically impossible to get anything on the radio. And I had a relative in Tashkent who had good English and always heard news, usually BBC.

01:03:23.000 - 01:03:52.000

And I at first began to listen to BBC in special English, slow. And then from when I became a little more advanced in English, I understood also that practically at that time there were no interesting literature to read. So in the '60s I began to read. And at that time the first improvement of relations emitted some people to bring books.

01:03:52.000 - 01:04:07.000

From the West. From the West, new editions, Bentham, Pantry, Penfield and so on, these cheap papers. And at that time they were not expensive. It was possible in some shops to buy them used ones.

01:04:07.000 - 01:04:23.000

And so I began to read them. And then there were again some conflicts. More and more Americans came to Russia. And so I didn't especially learn English by textbooks.

01:04:23.000 - 01:04:37.000

Just by such shopping. Very good. And so this was the consequence of our system. Thank you very, very much.

01:04:37.000 - 01:04:43.000

Thank you. This has been more than an hour. It was very good. Very good.

01:04:43.000 - 01:04:48.000

Would you like to take a nap? You people can take a five-minute break, okay?