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Now, on to, in a special edition, Bookmark looks at the life and work of a writer who is today beginning a nine-month prison sentence. He is Vaclav Havel, Czechoslovakia's best-known writer. The nature of his work and his role as a founder member of the civil rights movement, Charter 77, have made him a symbol of civic courage and independent thought throughout

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the world. [BIRDS CHIRPING] [FOOTSTEPS] [chatter]

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(people chattering) [ambient street noise] [Music] (soft music)

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(speaking in foreign language) - When I was a tiny baby, my father shot some scenes from my childhood with an amateur camera. When I saw these films recently,

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I realized a lot of things about myself. Things which possibly in some way influenced my whole life, my view of life, the roots of my writings. In those films, I am a small baby

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who is constantly the subject of everyone's attention. A pampered bourgeois child who is constantly around him his governesses, relatives, friends, even the mayor of Prague. [speaking in foreign language]

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And all these people keep admiring the child who is basically very alone, pestered by the love of his surroundings. This love is so overpowering and burdensome

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that the child seems to be constantly petrified and astonished. This, I think, developed in me at an early age, a strengthened sense of the absurdity of the world,

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a certain distance from the world, even a kind of fear of the world. All this is probably somewhere at the roots of my writing. (speaking in foreign language)

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(gentle music) (gentle piano music) (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language)

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- Havel, like many of his colleagues, hasn't seen a single play of his performed on Czech stages for over 20 years. There are no reasons not to play his plays provided that his civic attitudes are based

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on the attitude to the Czechoslovak state up to the level of the actions and behavior expected from the Czechoslovak citizens. In that case, of course, the theatres wouldn't refuse the author and would perform his plays. Currently, Mr. Havel has been active in other domains than that of the theatre.

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The things he's written until now are in certain respects simply a product of a certain period. And at this phase of our development, he hasn't offered to our theatres any new plays. Of crucial importance here is Havel's political activity. He was and still is one of the main dissidents, organisers of all the campaigns by Charter

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1977 all those demonstrations which it is trying to organize now I've never met him personally and I am not longing to either he could get back onto the Czech stage But only if he wants to get back to the Czech life and be part of our socialist society But I think that it suits him to live on this interesting margin

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[MUSIC PLAYING] Dear Olga, it appears the astronomers were right when they predicted prison for me again this year. I'm sorry about the many complications my new stint in jail will probably cause you.

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As I ponder this relatively stiff sentence, I can't help thinking that it is punishment for everything I've done in recent years, although no mention is made of this in the decision. Some may feel that I put too much into certain projects, and was not cautious enough. Perhaps. But a person cannot change his nature, and mine is such that when I set out to do something,

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I have to be completely involved. I'm glad that friends are thinking of us, but mainly, as ever, I'm glad that everything is as it was, which means okay. In short, that you, Pawsuk, and all our friends are still the same, just as I've always known you. Fidelity and In constancy, equalities are always valued above all else.

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And as years go by, I value them more and more. In any case, I don't suppose it is an accident that all my plays circle around the theme of the breakdown of identity and continuity.

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- You mean, who am I? I don't like this one-sided way of putting questions, I really don't. You think one can ask in this simplified way?

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No matter how one answers this kind of question, one can never encompass the whole truth, but only one of its many limited parts. I'm sure you yourselves must feel that

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what you feel today you didn't feel yesterday, and what you felt yesterday you don't feel today, but might perhaps again feel tomorrow, while what you might feel the day after tomorrow

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you may never have felt before. Do you feel that? Truth is just as complicated and multiform as everything else in the world. The magnet, the telephone, impressionism, the magnet.

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And we all are a little bit what we were yesterday and a little bit what we are today, and also a little bit we are not these things. We all are a little bit all the time, and all the time we are not a little bit. Some of us are more, and some of us are more not.

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I don't know whether you want more to be or not to be, or when you want to be or not to be. I know I want to be all the time. That is why all the time I must a little bit not be.

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My grandfather is the one who is responsible for my bourgeois background. He himself started out very poor, but he was hardworking. He graduated in architecture, borrowed some money, paved over some square in Prague, and became a construction entrepreneur.

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He belonged to the first generation of self-made men. My grandfather built many Art Nouveau houses in Prague. Also this house, where our family lived from the beginning of the century.

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- When young Vaclav was two, the German army marched into Prague. A year later, World War II started. In 1945, Soviet tanks rolled in to liberate Prague from the Germans.

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Three years later, the Communist Party assumed absolute power. [Singing] My grandfather's most important building is the Palace Lucerne, which was the first reinforced concrete building in Prague.

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At one point, the Lucerna was one of two or three really important halls in Prague where all the big important meetings took place, such as Congresses of the Communist Party.

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My father, who inherited the firm from my grandfather, rented the hall out to the Communists for the Congresses during the First Republic. Of course, after the war, after nationalization,

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the Communist Party took it away from him and gave him a bad time to boot. Of course I was influenced by my bourgeois childhood, but not in the way expected by the ruling ideology.

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As often happens to bourgeois children, the experience shifted me more to what in the West would be called the left. It heightened my sense of social barriers, social injustice, because I was myself somehow elevated.

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I was a son from a better family, and I felt a certain barrier between me and my classmates. (speaking in foreign language) (dramatic music)

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[music] if you were interested in making use of aids to amusement such as paper hats, gay papier maché noses, etc. Then you may pick them up via the head of your section at the sectional warehouse.

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And then you may go and amuse yourself with them within the area of Small Dance Floor C. Of course, you'll have to respect the queue which has been forming outside Small Dance Floor C since early afternoon, and which is, I'm sorry to say, inevitable because of the relatively large amount of interest in self-entertainment with aids to amusement, and the limited accommodation within the space of small dance floor C.

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The sooner you start queuing, the sooner you get in. Excuse me, but small dance floor C is clearly smaller than the large dance floor A. Why not move self-entertainment with aids to amusement to large dance floor A and the dance of sections to small dance floor C?

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At first glance, there's logic in it. Unfortunately this kind of logic is merely formal. What makes you think that larger dance floor A is indeed larger than small dance floor C? Why deceive oneself?

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Surely our colleagues of the organizing committee knew very well what they were doing when they restricted self-entertainment with aids to amusement precisely within the confines of small dance floor C. [music] I disagree most emphatically.

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There are truths which can never become trite. And I shall never allow any truths as dear to us as the truth that large dance floor A is indeed large to be maliciously belittled by any reference to its seeming self-evidence. For nothing is self-evident, as long as there lurks among us

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even one of those who would prefer to see us removed from every dance floor. Precisely what I was thinking of a short while ago. Well, well, well, how are things at the entrance, hmm? Having fun? Conversation flowing?

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This garden party's for everybody. Thank you. It's flowing. So what are you talking about? About love.

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Oh, well, that's lovely. Even love sort of belongs to man. The man of today has rich feelings. Much, much richer than any of his predecessors.

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But that's exactly why we must make damn sure that our love doesn't spill over a certain optimum level of manageability. Otherwise our love might awaken in people some temporary sadnesses as well. And these must be fundamentally eradicated. As long as they don't belong among constructive sadnesses,

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for we know those too, we mustn't proceed mechanically, so we don't throw out the bath with the baby. As long as the bath of constructive sadnesses

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doesn't conceal destructive ones as well, of course. Regarding the question of sadness, I'm an optimist After 1948 I became a permanent target of class struggle against the bourgeoisie. I couldn't go to university couldn't do anything And this being left out banished isolated also helped to form my view of the world

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and somehow it has transformed my life. Absurdity is always more visible for the person who is on the outside, as if left out, who does not identify himself with the routine flow of things, who sees the usual course of events from a distance, from below.

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The cat sees things from a distance, from above, from below. And if we have a bigger one, let's put it in the corner. [Russian] perhaps I am being prematurely anxious but my experience of prison is that it

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always pays to be prepared well in advance for any eventuality. parcels won't be permitted as frequently and it would be wonderful if I could take the maximum allowable with me. if only because at first I won't have any money at all. obviously I need some inexpensive shaving gear. the supply of toothpaste

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notebooks for writing, letter paper, scissors, a mirror, soap, etc. and mainly a lot of cigarettes. Every evening I listen to children romping about in an nearby playground, so I do have contact of sorts with the outside world after all.

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I'm trying to do a little yoga, but quarters are cramped and every movement must be worked out to within a millimetre. One of the tasks I've set myself during this long stay in prison a kind of self-consolidation.

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When I began to write plays, I wasn't as inwardly burdened as I have been in recent years. That's almost things in proportion. I had a sense of humor without a trace of uptightness, hysteria, bitterness. And I possessed a kind of inner certitude.

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Havel wrote his first drama as a conscript in the Czechoslovak army. (speaking in foreign language) Those days, the army promoted all manner of cultural activities.

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Individual regiments and divisions had to prove themselves by their cultural achievements. And so a friend of mine and I wrote a play on a military theme in the style of socialist realism,

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as it was required in those days. But at the same time, it was daringly and constructively critical. I wrote in a lot of male parts

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so that all our friends could join in and share the advantages. With this play, we started winning all kinds of competitions.

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And then, when we were supposed to win the highest, the all-armed forces competition, they looked into our personal files and, so to speak, exposed us.

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They cottoned on that we were making fun of them. But because they couldn't say so directly, they organized some tribunal where they denounced the play as anti-army

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because in it, a soldier falls asleep while on guard, which of course is impossible in the Czechoslovak army. Also, we didn't lay sufficient stress on the vital role of the regimental branch of the Communist Party.

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So these were my beginnings in theater. (speaking in foreign language) In the '50s, we had a period when, unlike today, theaters were not afraid of portraying reality around them.

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They boldly tackled such subjects as collectivization of villages or nationalization. Authors were, as it were, not afraid of tackling reality around them.

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Of course, today we cannot go back to such works. They fulfilled their purpose, and it's obvious that today we can't play plays that were played in the '50s.

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(singing in foreign language) In 1963, Vaclav Havel wrote his first play, "The Garden Party." and it was produced the same year by the Theatre on the Balustrade.

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Certain reviewers started describing this millionaire's son as a distinct dramatic talent. Havel's popularity substantially increased after The Garden Party was produced in West Germany.

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There is no doubt that he was helped to gain this glory by his ideological allies. Already at the publication of The Garden Party, Many Marxist theorists spotted the hidden undertone of the play.

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I started writing plays and then managed to get into the theatre on the balustrade which had just been formed. At first I worked as a stagehand, lighting engineer, secretary and eventually dramatic advisor. And all of my plays were performed there. And there I learned that theatre could be alive, that it doesn't have to be just a place

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where some spectacle is being performed, but it can be a kind of moral focus of the times or their barometer. Our theatre was the first of the small theatres which emerged in the early '60s. And each of these theatres had its own character.

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The theatre on the balustrade was different from the others, because it was interested in the absurd view of the world. We called it the theatre of appeal. Theatre which poses questions, provokes people, raises their awareness, trying to push their noses into the misery of the life they're living, uncovering the despair of this life. We did not think that

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we were smarter than our audience and that we had the right to patronise them as Brecht and explain to them how history or society works. I remember how in those days I used to come to see his plays here as an engineering student and it was said of them that they were the theatre of the absurd.

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But I never considered these plays as absurd. I saw them as strong, realistic plays about my life. Realistic, philosophical plays. Anyway, I think the term "absurd" plays an entirely different role in our country than in the West.

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I don't know his work directly. I know of a play which was performed in 1967 at the theatre on the Balustrade. And it made me feel at the time as if Kafka were being misused. A lot of people wanted to identify the problems of Kafka's world with the problems of the socialist world.

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And I think Havel was doing something similar. Incorrectly imputing the problems of capitalism to socialist society. Petit Dept, as you know, is a synthetic language built on a strictly scientific basis.

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You see, the vocabulary of Petit Dept is built according to an entirely logical principle. The more common the usage, the shorter the word. Thus, for example, the most commonly used term so far known,

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that is the term "whatever", is rendered in pretty depth by the word "he". Now, as you can see, that is a word consisting of only two letters. There exists, however, an even shorter word.

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This word does not as yet carry any meaning. I wonder if any of you can tell me why. Well? Well, Mr Thumb?

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It's being held in reserve in case science should discover a term even more commonly used than the term "whatever". Correct, Mr. Thumb. You get an A. Would you tell us, please, which is the longest word in "Pitidep"?

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Yes, certainly. It is the word meaning "a wombat". And it has... ...319 letters.

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Let us proceed. Interjections form an unusually easy part of the debate. It's quite obvious coming into the room. - As all over the socialist world,

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there's much talk in Czechoslovakia of reforms also in theater. Will these reforms enable directors to choose whose plays to perform?

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(speaking in foreign language) - About reforms, I suppose we could call them reforms, but I think I prefer to call it the enhancing of the quality of the theater organization process.

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The essential point is the transfer of the jurisdiction and the responsibility for the running of the theater organisms onto the umbrella function of the theater, which means mainly onto its director.

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In practice, for many of them in the past, it was convenient that there was still somebody above them who had to approve the drama program. We are not the ones to do the approving.

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We are consulting with drama programmers. We are coordinating their work. We are also consulting our superior organs, such as the Ministry of Culture.

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We have to consult with them and really we leave the sole authority to the directors. And this is the key idea of the enhancing of the quality of the theatre organisation process. Interjections form an unusually easy part of Petit Dap, which is quite obvious since their frequency in inter-office communications is somewhat limited.

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This is why interjections will form the first few lessons of your curriculum. Generally speaking, the interjection "boo" is used in the daily routine of an office company, a large organization, when one employee wishes to sham ambush another. In those cases when a hidden employee wishes to sham ambush an employee who is in full

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view and quite unaware of the impending peril, "boo" is translated by the word "gadirillion". The word "osonfterte" is used in substantially the same situation when, however, the imperiled employee is aware of the danger. "Osonfterte."

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"Assiste i tordo" is used by the superior wishing to test out the vigilance of a subordinate. Ishap Seror Nyax is used on the contrary by the subordinate towards the superior, but only on those days specifically appointed for that purpose. All right, let's see which of you's been paying attention.

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Who can tell me how one says "boo" in Petit Dep? When a hidden employee wishes to sham ambush an employee who is in full view and quite unaware of the danger Mr. Thumb Get an Aurelio. Correct.

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And when the employee is aware of the danger Mr. Groves Danger menacing an employee who is in full view who is aware of the danger. Yes, and whose perpetrator is hidden. Yes see Well, in that case one says...

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Mr. Fowler, can you tell us? We have to fulfill the role of a coordinator to prevent a situation where one fine day five theatres could produce the same play.

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Therefore, we have to coordinate. It means that we decide and have discussions with the directors which of the theatres is going to keep the play. But even this doesn't preclude incidents when a play by the same author can appear in the repertoire in two different theatres at the same time.

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I love logically constructed, totally convincing arguments which defend total nonsense. It interests me to explore the misuse of language, the special role that language plays in our conditions, where language is peculiarly misused and at the same time elevated, so that often the way we speak about something is more important than reality itself.

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And someone who has mastered a certain language can go a long way whatever the reality of the situation. It is as if language became a motor of events, the creator of reality, more real than reality itself.

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Veslav Havel, your play, The Memorandum, is a very funny satire about bureaucracy and the behavior of bureaucrats. Now, when you wrote it, was it a satire on a particular situation prevailing in Czechoslovakia at that time?

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The inspiration came, of course, from my experience in our country, but I didn't want to write it only as a play about our country, because I thought that these problems are more general. Well, your play was produced there. How was it received?

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Did people take it as being critical of Czechoslovakia? I think that people understood it very well, how I want it. One shouldn't forget also that this period resulted in the crisis of 1968, and that some dramatic works precipitated the crisis is undeniable too. And unfortunately the cultural

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front really very actively joined that clearly anti-socialist and anti-soviet campaign. I never wanted to be a political writer. I think that good art and particularly good Theatre is always political, but not because writers and directors want to be political, but because it is something that is in substance of theatre.

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- Thank you very much. [MUSIC PLAYING] In August 1968, Soviet tanks rolled into Prague and interrupted Havel's career.

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His last official work, My Beautiful Bohemia, was a radio program put together from archive recordings of Czech and Slovak politicians. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

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(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language)

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democratic Jewish capitalism. And with them, together with the Rats, one next to the other, they dared to enter the Visegrad.

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I assure you that in these things the election will be organized. We are entering the period of our new national and state building.

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Because the defense of our state borders is impossible. The state is the state! And therefore, once again,

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[SPEECH] The song is edited into the speeches of our statesmen. It's a poetic montage with small fragments edited in cycles. One statesman starts a sentence, and another finishes it.

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One follows from the other. and it's all put together to a very depressing effect. There is a moment, for instance, when President Svoboda is appealing to the nation for calm,

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saying that it is impossible to defend our borders, and it is said first about the invading Germans and then about the Soviet Union. (singing in foreign language)

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(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) [ Foreign Language ] The whole montage ends with a passage from a very well-known speech by Dubček.

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When Dubček returned from the negotiations from the Kremlin, where they'd carried off these politicians of ours, he delivered a speech to the nation. And there was a passage in it where he said,

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"Suddenly, ad libem." The rest was written beforehand. He said, "Do forgive me that I speak with such difficulty "and have to ad lib and can't express myself very well, "but you surely understand the cause of it."

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And there is this great long silence and then a great gasping sigh and it all ends on that, on the sigh about our national history over the last few decades.

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and I look forward to our national history for the next decades. [Music] [Ginn servirdingin unpå land] [ Finding single shots]

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[Making good cessosesions] [Door opened] (singing in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language)

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(airplane engine roaring) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking foreign language)

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in a very improvised speech and performance. I think you understand what this is about. I give my greetings to the crowd at the Slavia Cafe. I'm glad you still go there.

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One of the more frequent themes of my daydreams are the friends that have left the country. I feel a slight nostalgia, anxiety, even envy. I occasionally have what might be called

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olfactory hallucinations. Suddenly my lathe, my belongings, my fellow cellmate, or anything else, seems to emit a smell that arouses from the sleep of long years

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a memory of something once associated with a similar odor, the muddy aroma of the Labe River, the smell of Aida when she shakes the water from her fur after a swim in the pond,

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or the musty smell of old theatrical textiles mingled with makeup powder from my first years in the theater on the balustrade. You see, I haven't seen my play on the stage in 20 years.

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And the only possibility to see it is on videotapes. And I have a tape of production of a tapetation, my play from Royal Shakespeare Company. They made it for me, and they visited me,

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and gave me this videotape. And I like it very much. I shall show you. [ Background Sounds ]

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[ Music ] >> [Foreign Language] She's going to be in the gymnasium. Maggie!

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Yes, Doctor? Maggie, would you make me a cup of coffee, please? And one for you, please. And me.

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And three coffees, then. Right! [bells jingling] (audience laughing)

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- Well. - Each playwright has always written for a specific theater, even Shakespeare. And it's very important for a dramatist

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to cooperate with a specific theater. A play is created in a particular moment. It's connected with its times, with its audience, its place, and with its theater.

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It's impossible to write plays just like that, in general, and send them off somewhere. I was used to writing for a specific theater, the theater on the balustrade,

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where I could, during the rehearsals, influence and adjust the production slightly. But when I was later banned and my links with the theater were severed,

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I found it difficult to continue writing. It took me some time till I got used to the situation and started again. I always have to imagine while writing that it is going to be performed here for this

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audience, for this theatre. My plays still have the dimensions of the theatre on the balustrade as far as the number of characters and the size of the stage is concerned. But there are also those who put their signatures behind the Two Thousand Words manifesto and

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because of their various actions and attitudes, we have the right not to cooperate with them, because our concern is first and foremost, health. has the duty to serve the health of society. During the last 20 years or so, they've devastated all spheres of life, and have also succeeded

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in devastating the theatre. Autonomous social life has been obliterated. It means that also the theatre audiences have been obliterated. Now there tend to be anonymous gatherings of individuals bust in from their places of work and the like. As the audiences have become anonymous, so has the work of the theatres because the stage

00:40:54.940 - 00:41:19.180

and the auditorium are communicating vessels. (gentle music) There doesn't seem to be a single drama on Prague's stages which deals with contemporary Czech matters.

00:41:19.180 - 00:41:43.660

I don't think so. The theatres have in their repertoire titles by our classic authors, our contemporary plays, also from the camp of our socialist community, and of course Western authors as well. And also we mustn't forget our contemporary classics.

00:41:43.660 - 00:42:14.660

Let me take for instance the situation for last year's drama programme. I can tell you that in the last season, that is '87, '88, well, from the approximately 50 new productions, if we divide them up, we have 15 titles from contemporary Czech writing,

00:42:14.660 - 00:42:34.060

5 titles by Czech classics, by dramatists from the socialist countries we have 4 titles, I do stress only four. And from contemporary world drama, we have 12 titles.

00:42:34.060 - 00:42:46.140

And we have five world classics. This goes to show that in recent times, Czech and world classics have not been given the prominence that they might be supposed to have been given.

00:42:46.140 - 00:42:58.820

As a matter of fact, the situation is that contemporary authors have got 15 titles and Western theater is represented by 12 titles. [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:42:58.820 - 00:43:37.260

[SINGING IN POLISH] [ Music ] From 1970 to the mid-70s was the darkest period, when everything we thought had gone forever

00:43:37.260 - 00:43:57.260

started to come back in an even worse form. I was forced into a kind of seclusion. I was unemployed until 1974 when I got a job in a brewery. brewery.

00:43:57.260 - 00:44:27.020

and I see a little of it on his nappy. I was there. - Do you know what's the worst thing about all this? - What?

00:44:27.020 - 00:44:42.940

(water running) - What I'm supposed to keep telling him week in, week out? I mean, what do I know about you, eh? Not much.

00:44:42.940 - 00:44:53.460

And a few bits of gossip that come my way, no bloody good. You take extra breaks in the lavatory. Someone saw you in town a couple of times

00:44:53.460 - 00:45:02.700

with Marushka from Bodley. A couple of lads from Maidenhead's helped you fix your e-doll, so what? Do you know what I mean?

00:45:02.700 - 00:45:16.460

What am I supposed to keep telling them, week in, week out? Well, you tell me, eh? Well? Well, what?

00:45:16.460 - 00:45:25.340

Afraid I can't be of much help to you there, I'm sorry. Oh, well, yeah, you can, you see. That is, if you want to. What do you mean?

00:45:25.340 - 00:45:44.860

Well, you're what you might call an intellectual, right? Yeah, well, I mean, you know the political setup, right? You know how to write, right? Well, then, who knows better than yourself the sort of things

00:45:44.860 - 00:45:51.860

that they want to know, eh? Oh, no. I see what you're getting at. Look, I'll fix you up.

00:45:51.860 - 00:46:00.940

I'll set you up in that little office in the fourth store. You have plenty of time. Can't be all that much trouble with a bloke like yourself. Put it down on paper for me once a week, can it?

00:46:00.940 - 00:46:12.460

I mean, I'm worth that much to you, ain't I? [COUGHING] I'm going to look after you. You'll be in clover in there.

00:46:12.460 - 00:46:26.900

You'll get as much beer as you like in there. It'll be child's play for you. I mean, you're a writer, damn it. You will have a direct influence

00:46:26.900 - 00:46:35.780

on what they know about you. Yes, I do see that. So what's the problem? I'm really very grateful for everything

00:46:35.780 - 00:46:46.620

that you've done for me. I do appreciate it, because I know myself how rare a stand of this kind is. Honestly, I don't know what I would have done without you.

00:46:46.620 - 00:47:02.300

That job in the full store would be a relief for me, probably greater than you know. But the thing is, please forgive me, I cannot very well inform on myself.

00:47:02.300 - 00:47:10.740

What do you mean, inform? Who said anything about informing? Not concerned about myself. Wouldn't do me any harm, but, um, well,

00:47:10.740 - 00:47:22.060

it's the principle of the thing. As a matter of principle, I cannot actually participate in-- In what? Go on.

00:47:22.060 - 00:47:45.220

What is it you actually cannot participate in? In a practice with which I do not agree. Well, that's marvelous. Now you've shown your true colors.

00:47:45.220 - 00:48:05.060

Now we know who you really are. What about me, hey? You don't give a damn about me. It's all right if I wait in the muck,

00:48:05.060 - 00:48:18.560

as long as the gentleman stays clean. The gentleman cannot participate. No one cares about a principle. Well, what about the rest of us, eh?

00:48:18.560 - 00:48:35.560

You couldn't care less. A principle means more to you than a human being. Well, you stick to your sodding principles, why not? You know damn well how to cash in on them.

00:48:35.560 - 00:48:53.000

What about me, eh? Or aren't you expecting to kick up the arse if I so much as mention a principle? A chance of Icon. Nobody's going to look after me.

00:48:53.000 - 00:49:18.280

Nobody's afraid of me. Nobody's interested in me. Nobody's going to write about me. The word totalitarian still evokes an image of rulers who hover above society as if it

00:49:18.280 - 00:49:35.360

was still possible to draw a precise line between the rulers and the ruled. This developed totalitarian system is more cunning. It actually seeps through the whole society. Each person carries within them a bit of the system.

00:49:35.360 - 00:49:45.960

are its creator and its victim. [SPEAKING POLISH] Our effort was to lend a helping hand, to help the people who made mistakes, who ended up

00:49:45.960 - 00:49:59.840

on the wrong side, because they were influenced, because they were pressured, because they just didn't know. We wanted to help these people to get back to serving socialist art, art which serves this society,

00:49:59.840 - 00:50:22.740

to the benefit of progress, to the benefit of peace. (applause) (audience applauding) (speaking in foreign language)

00:50:33.740 - 00:50:54.640

(speaking in foreign language) - Everyone has something to lose, so everyone has reason to be afraid. The range of things a man can lose is a very wide one,

00:50:54.640 - 00:51:07.360

extending from the manifold privileges of the ruling caste, the ability to work at all in one's field, the chance of higher education, down to the mere possibility of living in a limited degree of legal certainty.

00:51:07.360 - 00:51:27.200

Yes, everyone has something to lose. The humblest workman's mate can be shifted to an even more lowly and worse-paid job. Even he can pay a savage penalty for speaking his mind at a meeting or in a bar. The system of existential pressure embraces totally the whole of society and every individual.

00:51:27.200 - 00:51:41.000

But it would not work effectively if it were not backed up, exactly like the former more brutal forms of pressure, by that force which renders it comprehensive, complex, and robust, the ubiquitous and omnipotent state police.

00:51:41.000 - 00:52:03.400

In 1975, I wrote an open letter to Dr. Hussack, in which I attempted to analyze the whole situation. And then some other things started to happen, as if people were straightening up, waking up.

00:52:03.400 - 00:52:18.760

And this is the period when what the West calls dissent started to emerge. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language)

00:52:18.760 - 00:52:34.440

(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language)

00:52:34.440 - 00:52:55.600

- I'll take something out. - It's nothing. - It's nothing. Dude! - This is the expeditionary team. - Aha. - They're going to Brečany. - Yes, yes. This is what Vlksa had. He's a real cosmonaut.

00:52:59.360 - 00:53:17.240

-We'll just have to... -Okay, but... -We'll probably have to do it again. -We'll do it again. We'll do it again at the beginning of February. -At the beginning of February. -It's easier to do it at the beginning.

00:53:17.240 - 00:53:31.480

-It's always badly done. -Yes. -We'll have to do it again. -We'll have to do it again. In the 1970s, when we were all banned (speaking in foreign language)

00:53:31.480 - 00:53:43.140

- In the '70s, when we were all banned and all good journals disbanded, the samizdat started to emerge. The first samizdat outfit, until now the best known,

00:53:43.140 - 00:53:55.480

was the Edice Pedlice, whose leading figure is Ludwig Watzulik. And about a year or two after the Pedlice in '75, we started our own press, Expedice,

00:53:55.480 - 00:54:08.920

which still exists today. We published over 200 titles. Of course, I can't do it all myself. I've got a lot of other commitments, editorial boards and so on.

00:54:08.920 - 00:54:24.920

But there are others to look after Expedice, my brother Ivan and Jan Lopatka. The first title to be published by Havel's Samizdat editions was the open letter to Dr. Husak.

00:54:24.920 - 00:54:52.640

Václav Havel, that failure of a playwright, whose anti-socialist outpourings are no longer accepted even in Western European theatres, despite liberal financial assistance provided by his political protectors, has joined the anti-Czechoslovak campaign run by Dubček and co. by sending a so-called "open letter" to the Secretary General of the Communist

00:54:52.640 - 00:55:11.340

party, Comrade Hussack. Two years after writing the letter to Hussack, Havel co-founded Charter 77 and became its first spokesman. To me the Charter's great success seems to be in the fact that confronted with this document,

00:55:11.340 - 00:55:32.660

our society gained a better awareness of its own situation. A great many people, hitherto apathetic, realised their social responsibility as well as their ability to fight for their rights in a much more forceful and yet completely legal way. It was as if they had begun to realize that there are more precious things in life than

00:55:32.660 - 00:55:50.660

material possessions. Another success of the Charter is that it reinforced the idea of the indivisibility of freedom, making people of different convictions grasp that the freedom of each individual is the freedom of all, and that one has to defend other people's rights, whatever the

00:55:50.660 - 00:56:12.500

risk, with equal fervour as one's own. We are no longer divided into a handful of dissidents and the rest of the population. Every signature on the Charter carries the same weight, whether it's that of a factory worker, a student, or a former cabinet minister. I think it most important that this has been done, and perhaps even more important is the effect that the

00:56:12.500 - 00:56:37.580

charter has had on young people. I myself ascribe the greater claim it has won among them, chiefly to the fact that the charter is not basically built on political, but rather on moral principles. We rather dislike the term dissidents. It creates the impression that it's a kind of

00:56:37.580 - 00:57:07.940

profession, as if society was divided into artisans, peasants, workers, writers, and dissidents. But of course, it's not like this. The dissidents are simply people who've decided to say publicly what anyhow most of the population thinks. Nobody decides at any particular point to embark on the career of the dissident.

00:57:07.940 - 00:57:22.340

It's not a matter of some single intellectual decision. It's a matter of gradual development, interplay of circumstances, chances, own decisions, pressures, which forces a person to make a move which

00:57:22.340 - 00:57:32.020

leads to reprisal. Then it's necessary to defend oneself against the reprisal, et cetera. And gradually, it all mounts up till you

00:57:32.020 - 00:57:47.340

find yourself in a situation where you become aware of the fact that you're risking long-term prison sentence. But by then you can't act in any other way. You can't leave that path if you don't want to leave yourself.

00:57:47.340 - 00:58:22.700

In Temptation, I use the legend of Faust in a moral and metaphysical sense. Some say the devil represents totalitarianism and all that that entails. Faust is somebody who wants to resist all this general demoralization. His whole uninspired, soulless interpretation of the world,

00:58:22.700 - 00:58:36.620

which is compulsory and official, is somehow not enough for him to explain things. He senses something beyond that. He senses the mystery, it attracts him, entices him, tempts him. (speaking in foreign language)

00:58:36.620 - 00:58:52.300

(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language)

00:58:52.300 - 00:59:07.980

(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language)

00:59:07.980 - 00:59:47.660

(speaking in foreign language) But at the same time, He lacks enough moral strength and consistency to break with the official world and choose his own path. He's not prepared to take the risk.

00:59:47.660 - 01:00:12.060

He simply attempts to outwit his fate and he wants to play along with all sides. And finally comes to a sticky end because by playing the role of a kind of double agent, he gives up his identity. He played the role of a double agent. I want to use my right and say no to the charge.

01:00:12.060 - 01:00:35.060

Mr. Prime Minister, Mr. Speaker, colleagues. In the trust in objectivity and consciousness, with which my case will be solved, I assume that at the right moment

01:00:35.060 - 01:00:50.060

I will have sufficient space for a more extensive statement and that some circumstances that I will share with you at this opportunity will lead to my complete purification. At this moment, I will limit myself to expressing my hope

01:00:50.060 - 01:01:07.060

that the whole system, in accordance with the scientific approach to reality and scientific morality, will be unbiased and fully oriented towards the only goal - to find the truth. It is not only in the interest of me and the interest of the scientific community

01:01:07.060 - 01:01:23.980

as such, which should be guarded and cultivated by the sending of this Constitution, but also in the interest of all of you. A different approach could, in my case, easily make only the first article (speaking in foreign language)

01:01:23.980 - 01:01:40.980

and they don't dare to look at it. Thank you for your attention. We live in the new age and nobody has the intention to organize some magic races.

01:01:40.980 - 01:02:01.780

We just revive the old darkness and fight fanaticism against it. The way Dr. Faustka's case will be handled will be an inspiring example of an exact approach to facts.

01:02:01.780 - 01:02:17.940

Truth must prevail, no matter who it falls to. Who will clear the garden? I will, Mr. Prime Minister. Thank you, Vilema, for coming.

01:02:18.140 - 01:02:40.900

- She's what? (woman screams) (people laughing) - Since its founding,

01:02:40.900 - 01:02:48.900

Charter 77 took up contacts with similar civil rights organizations such as the Committee for the Defense of Workers in the neighboring Poland.

01:02:48.900 - 01:03:12.580

(speaking in foreign language) - We established this tradition in '78 when we had our first meeting in Borders and we first time met Jacek and Adam.

01:03:15.260 - 01:03:30.140

and now after many complicated things which happened in Polish and our history. We were in prison there and we, et cetera, et cetera. (speaking in foreign language)

01:03:30.140 - 01:03:44.140

We are afraid that this is a trap. We are afraid that this is to make them say, "Look, intellectuals, everything, let them write, let them print,

01:03:44.140 - 01:03:59.140

as long as they are not Solidarity. And let them separate from the workers." And we say, "No, not a step, we won't give up." - It's not about that. - It's about the fact that if something happens,

01:03:59.140 - 01:04:07.140

- it's already happened. - I don't know. They won't fire anyone. They'll fire someone, they'll take away their pension. They'll do something.

01:04:07.140 - 01:04:36.820

And then it's worth taking care of them. We're changing the point. The third point. The report on the Human Rights Conference... It must be always very conspiratively prepared. And it is in the special place very, very far of Prague,

01:04:36.820 - 01:04:47.100

in somewhere. I cannot tell where. And Polish people from Solidarność, who works in the border, arranged it.

01:04:47.100 - 01:05:02.380

And their police and our police always investigated where it was. And it's very complicated to arrange it. ...the mass murder of Polish officers in Katyn and other unknown places in the 40th district of Wrocław.

01:05:02.380 - 01:05:35.260

The current state of the law, which sanctions the lawless, allows the persecution of political opponents and allows the repression of all independent political activities. The second chapter is the right to free development of national and religious life. You can feel some differences between Polish mentality and our mentality and Polish situation

01:05:35.260 - 01:05:57.540

and our situation. They have more self-assurance than we, because they know that factories are prepared to strike for them and they feel the support of millions of people. (speaking in foreign language)

01:05:57.540 - 01:06:28.860

(laughing) (men speaking in foreign language) - Since '77, Havel spent over five and a half years in a variety of prisons all over Czechoslovakia.

01:06:28.860 - 01:06:40.520

He received the toughest sentence, four and a half years in this labor camp in Moravia for founding VONS, the Committee for the Defense of Those Unjustly Prosecuted,

01:06:40.520 - 01:07:11.480

in 1979. In periods when he was out of prison, Havel found himself under strict police surveillance. - We have a custom here that in certain periods

01:07:11.480 - 01:07:22.200

we are put under what is called a stracha. It means that policemen are constantly on guard in front of our front doors. They change day and night, three of them at any one time.

01:07:22.200 - 01:07:30.640

And wherever I go, they go with me. Every person I meet has to show their papers to them and so on. (fire crackling)

01:07:30.640 - 01:07:44.240

That special house, what you see now, it isn't dream of Corbusier, but I think more dream of George Orwell, because it is house of police,

01:07:44.240 - 01:07:59.680

which it built three months ago, and the whole day, every day, they leave inside, and they follow all my steps and everything what I do in my country house.

01:07:59.680 - 01:08:14.920

Sometimes they are here also during the night, but mainly only during the day. They are my new neighbors. I'm sorry for that short interruption,

01:08:14.920 - 01:08:30.640

but police car drived around our house and we are a little bit afraid they see us. (airplane engine roaring) - The strangest things happen when I'm under surveillance.

01:08:30.640 - 01:08:41.120

Once when I went to a sauna, three old men who were on duty followed to sweat with me. Just before going in, they asked me to be kind enough and wait a while

01:08:41.120 - 01:08:49.560

because they were afraid that the sauna would be bad for their hearts and they wanted to call some younger colleagues. So I waited for a quarter of an hour

01:08:49.560 - 01:09:07.400

and then these three rambos came in and we all went to sweat together. Sometimes they keep me at the police station longer than they need to because they want to hold me there for some other reason,

01:09:07.400 - 01:09:19.400

and the formal interrogation ends very quickly. We occasionally have a chat, which turns into a debate on political theory. I try to explain things to them,

01:09:20.040 - 01:09:36.680

while they try to explain their work and their attitudes to me. Most of the time, not very successfully. I used to quite enjoy our debates, but lately I get rather bored, because it's always the same.

01:09:36.680 - 01:10:02.920

In brief, we have here socialism. The guarantee of socialism is the power monopoly of the Communist Party. Who criticizes anything, who criticizes the totalitarian centralized power, must be de facto criticizing socialism, because he is criticizing that which guarantees it.

01:10:02.920 - 01:10:18.860

And therefore, he is a so-called anti-socialist force, regardless of the opinions of the given person, whether he is in favor of state ownership of enterprises or private ownership, or for cooperative or for self-management. All this doesn't matter to them.

01:10:18.860 - 01:10:43.220

One of the policemen who seemed to be in charge of my case is one Captain Cermak, whom I know well by now. Sometimes he's on guard in front of my house. He also does house searches and interrogations.

01:10:44.060 - 01:10:56.240

after an interrogation, he said to me, "And now, unofficially, off the record, "I would like to say something to you. "I behaved correctly, and I wouldn't like

01:10:56.240 - 01:11:21.480

"to hear my name tomorrow on the Voice of America "or some other station. "You really don't need to mention me or name me." It's a very absurd and paradoxical situation that this man who is the representative of

01:11:21.480 - 01:11:38.280

the omnipotent state and its omnipotent police, who can practically take anything from me and do anything with me, that this man turns to me, an ordinary citizen, totally at his mercy and begs me to let him retain his anonymity. on an imager.

01:11:38.280 - 01:11:47.280

Well, as you know, what's coming to you is coming to you because under the name of Leopold Nettles, you put together a certain paper. An essay, you called it.

01:11:47.280 - 01:11:57.280

You never denied it. And in effect, therefore, you brought the whole thing on yourself by this act of non-denial. As a man of wide knowledge, you must be aware

01:11:57.280 - 01:12:08.920

that if the perpetrator isn't known, one cannot proceed against him. This is known as the principle of the identity of the perpetrator. In short, therefore, if you would sign a paper here and now

01:12:08.920 - 01:12:27.960

saying that you are not the Leopold Nettles who wrote that paper, then the whole matter could be dropped and all previous decisions rescinded. If I understand you correctly, you want me to declare that I am no longer me. Well, that might do for a philosopher,

01:12:27.960 - 01:12:41.680

but of course, from a legal point of view, it doesn't make any sense. Obviously, you cannot write that you are no longer you, but rather that you are not the you who wrote that paper. Essentially, it's a formality.

01:12:41.680 - 01:12:53.480

One name being like another name. Or do you think the Nettles is such a beautiful name that you can't bear to lose it? You only have to look in the phone book to see how many equally nice names there are. - And most of them even nicer. - And most of them even nicer.

01:12:53.480 - 01:13:08.080

Do you want me to change my name? Not at all. You can choose whatever name you like. That's entirely up to you. Nobody, at least in this case, could care less. The important thing here is whether you are or are not

01:13:08.080 - 01:13:16.880

the Nettles who wrote that paper. If for sentimental reasons you want to keep your name, then by all means, keep it. Ed, though there's no denying it would be neater

01:13:16.880 - 01:13:25.680

if you were to decide otherwise. Well, it might be neater, but it's not essential. After all, there might be more than one Leopold Nettles. There are three just in the phone book.

01:13:25.680 - 01:13:35.360

So it doesn't really matter whether you're Nettles or Nichols, but whether you're the Nettles who wrote that paper. - You've got to admit it's a good offer. - I don't understand what you'll achieve by it

01:13:35.360 - 01:13:45.700

or why in that case you're proposing it. As far as I know, you never do anything without a reason. - Don't be a fool, man. Here's a chance with one stroke of the pen

01:13:45.700 - 01:13:56.680

to get rid of everything that's piled on your head. All this shit. It's a chance for a completely fresh start. - What wouldn't I give for such a chance?

01:13:56.680 - 01:14:26.220

- Mm. Hmm. Let's have a look. So what's it to be?

01:14:26.220 - 01:14:40.080

(fire crackling) Five years ago, something happened to me that in many regards had a key significance in my subsequent life.

01:14:40.080 - 01:14:51.220

I was in detention for the first time and after an interrogation, I wrote a request to the public prosecutor for my release. I wrote my request in a way that at the time

01:14:51.220 - 01:15:05.700

seemed extremely tactical and cunning and I said nothing that I did not believe that wasn't true. I simply overlooked the fact that truth lies not only in what is said, but also in who says it, and to whom, why, how, and under what circumstances. I sent

01:15:05.700 - 01:15:23.260

the request off the following day, and because no one responded to it, and my detention was prolonged once more, I assumed that it had ended up where such requests usually end up, and I more or less forgot about it. And then one day, lightning struck. I was given to to know that I would probably be released,

01:15:23.260 - 01:15:32.140

and that in the process, political use would be made of my request. Of course, I knew right away what that meant, that with appropriate recasting,

01:15:32.140 - 01:15:41.900

additions, and widespread publicity, the impression would be created that I had not held out, that I had given into pressure and backed down from my opinions and all my previous work.

01:15:41.900 - 01:15:52.040

I came out of prison discredited to confront a world that seemed to me one enormous, supremely justified rebuke. (thunder rumbling)

01:15:52.040 - 01:16:05.000

- As you're obviously aware, I'm not going to sign that statement. I'd rather die than give up my own human identity. It's the only thing I've got.

01:16:05.000 - 01:16:13.720

- But Leopold, why are you carrying on like this? You're not going anywhere. - Why not? I've just told you quite clearly,

01:16:13.720 - 01:16:21.760

I'm not going to sign anything. I'm not guilty. - You don't have to sign anything. Your case has been adjourned indefinitely.

01:16:21.760 - 01:16:27.200

Indefinitely for the time being. For the time being. Without signature. What?

01:16:27.200 - 01:16:32.640

Adjourned? That's right. Adjourned. You mean no signature and no there either?

01:16:32.640 - 01:16:40.040

For the time being, mind. For the time being. I don't understand what you mean. Why don't you want my signature anymore?

01:16:40.040 - 01:16:48.120

It's just a formality. Who needs it? It's become pretty clear by now that in your case, it would be superfluous.

01:16:48.120 - 01:16:58.040

- Are you saying I'm no longer me? - You said it, not me. - I don't want an adjournment. I want to go there.

01:16:58.040 - 01:17:14.480

I'm begging you. I beseech you, I can't go on living like this. - It seems you'll have to. - Largo Desolato is not a play

01:17:14.480 - 01:17:25.760

about someone coming back from prison, it's about someone who expects to be put there. Nevertheless, it contains a lot of my post-prison experience which somebody who hasn't been in prison won't recognize.

01:17:25.760 - 01:17:48.160

But friends who spent time behind bars spotted it immediately. What's it like outside? Stifling.

01:17:48.160 - 01:17:54.320

Lots of people. No more than usual? Do you mind if I open the window a bit? Go ahead.

01:17:54.320 - 01:18:04.660

How did you sleep? Essentially well. I would put it at six hours net. So you're all right?

01:18:04.660 - 01:18:15.320

At first glance, I would seem to have no reason to complain today, but in all honesty, I couldn't assert that I'm feeling up to the mark. Edward, will you think of me?

01:18:15.320 - 01:18:25.200

When? Well, when I'm there. You mustn't keep thinking about that all the time. I don't keep thinking about it all the time.

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It just came to my head. I'm sorry. Why don't you go for a walk once in a while? Are you mad?

01:18:32.240 - 01:18:38.720

Go out. Well, why not? And be a nervous wreck the whole time not knowing what's going on back here?

01:18:38.720 - 01:19:08.640

Nothing's going on back here. I know, but how am I going to know that if I'm getting about somewhere else? What if they came just then? Some of my friends have said that the return from prison is even worse than finding oneself in a prison.

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And I can confirm this. In the prison, one is permanently manipulated, like a small child for whom others, the adults, decide. Actually, from the moment you wake up

01:19:17.600 - 01:19:24.500

till the moment you fall asleep, each of your movements, each of your actions are set out for you with great precision. Everything has its order.

01:19:24.500 - 01:19:35.880

You go around in a procession led by prison wardens. You have no possibility of choosing or making decisions. And when you finally come out, you are choked by a constant pressing need

01:19:35.880 - 01:19:43.640

to make decisions. In the morning, you have to decide when to get up, what to put on, which trousers, which shirt. When you have to go somewhere, you don't know how,

01:19:43.640 - 01:19:52.560

by metro or a tram, a car or on foot. What do I need to have with me? In prison, you don't have anything. For years, you have only your toothbrush and toothpaste

01:19:52.560 - 01:20:15.240

in the cupboard on the prescribed place. (speaking in foreign language) In prison, you live in a thoroughly collective environment, a totally collective life,

01:20:15.240 - 01:20:25.920

so you are not alone even for a second. This goes on for several years. Even carrying out one's bodily functions has to be done in public in a cell for 12 or 20 people.

01:20:25.920 - 01:20:37.240

And to my surprise, I found that once out of prison, I was unable to be alone. I was afraid to be alone in the flat. And whenever my wife went out,

01:20:37.240 - 01:20:46.600

she had to arrange for our neighbor or some friend to come to the flat to stay with me because I couldn't face being alone. Many friends of mine confirmed this experience.

01:20:46.600 - 01:20:59.760

I was afraid to walk alone in the street, cross the road and so on, because despite having people around me, I felt alone, not being part of a regimented procession,

01:20:59.760 - 01:21:16.440

a collectively organized life. - In 1979, seven months into Havel's sentence, the authorities offered to release him, provided he agreed to leave the country.

01:21:16.440 - 01:21:47.680

Havel declined and spent four more years in prison. After re-reading Yvain's letter, the idea that someone has to start, that responsibility cannot be preached but only born, and that the only place to begin with is myself, corresponds exactly to my experience. In other words, I am responsible for the state of the world.

01:21:47.680 - 01:22:06.680

That's what we meant five years ago, too. You can even say that imposing heavy demands on others is an unfailing sign of unwillingness to take them upon oneself. Whether all is lost or not depends entirely on whether or not I am lost.

01:22:06.680 - 01:22:39.480

That's all for today. Lights out is approaching. Perhaps I'll add something tomorrow. December 10, 1988, the International Day of Human Rights, was marked by the visit to Prague

01:22:39.480 - 01:22:51.480

by the French president Mitterrand. Put under the spotlight of world opinion, the authorities allowed at the 11th hour an independent human rights demonstration.

01:22:51.480 - 01:23:04.320

The first in 20 years not to be broken up by riot police. Only three weeks after his last stint in jail, armed with toothbrush and toothpaste just in case, Havel made his way to the obscure square

01:23:04.320 - 01:23:22.580

where the demonstration was allowed to take place. (speaking in foreign language) (crowd cheering) (crowd chanting)

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(crowd chanting) (crowd chanting) (crowd chanting) (crowd chanting)

01:23:33.620 - 01:23:44.660

(crowd chanting) (crowd chanting) (crowd chanting) (crowd chanting)

01:23:44.660 - 01:24:36.660

[Chanting] [SILENCE] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]

01:24:36.660 - 01:25:21.120

[silence] [The video is paused for the rest of the presentation.] [Bell tolls] [Waves crashing]

01:25:21.120 - 01:25:29.240

[Boat motor revs] Arena on Friday pays tribute to the British people. We play a part still in the political life of the country on occasions like this.

01:25:29.240 - 01:25:38.040

President Reagan, remember, came here in the summer last year. President Gorbachev comes today. It's becoming a sort of political center, surrounded with a bit of the panoply,

01:25:38.040 - 01:25:49.720

the pikemen and the musketeers of the Honorable Artillery Company, there forming a guard of honor as the Prime Minister comes up. And it was this city of London that created the first links.

01:25:49.720 - 01:26:10.720

Back in 1555, when the Muscovy Company was founded to trade with Russia and to buy furs and make arrangements for importing various goods to Britain. So they've got long-standing links with what is now the Soviet Union. Prime Minister comes into the print room. This was the old print room which is next

01:26:10.720 - 01:26:24.360

to the old library. They now have very modern print rooms and libraries. And she is introduced to some of the city dignitaries down this side. There are a lot of other distinguished guests we may be seeing later on. Well, so that all happened about 10 minutes ago.

01:26:24.360 - 01:26:32.960

Now we're waiting for Mikhail Gorbachev and Raisa, his wife, to arrive here. And while we do, I have with me Mr. Garazimov, who you may have seen and are bound to have seen

01:26:32.960 - 01:26:46.640

many times on television. Mr. Gennady Garazimov, who's the Foreign Ministry spokesman, the senior one for the Soviet Union. Mr. Garazimov, this visit so far, from your point of view,

01:26:46.640 - 01:27:05.320

what is its purpose? The continuation of Soviet-British political dialogue is the purpose worth pursuing. And as a result of this visit, we see this dialogue on another level, maybe qualitatively another level.

01:27:05.320 - 01:27:27.320

But is it really seriously politically relevant to the Soviet Union, what's happening here? Because isn't it actually George Bush whose ear you've got to get, if there's to be any further progress on some of these important issues, disarmament and the rest? If we wish, we can criticize George Bush in any other place, including Moscow, because Secretary of State Mr. Baker comes to Moscow early May.

01:27:27.320 - 01:27:55.840

So this is not the place. We do want to establish political dialogue with Britain, because Britain is important, its role in European and world affairs is extremely important. So we respect Britain, we want to have dialogue with Britain. You seem to be suggesting yesterday that Washington might be trying to put a spoke in the wheels of this visit, to some way suggest that perhaps it wasn't such a good thing that Britain and

01:27:55.840 - 01:28:16.320

Moscow got on quite as well as the Prime Minister and Mr Gorbachev. Well, this was about these bombers to Libya deal. It was reported in the American press, I guess a month ago or something like that, and now played it up to hit the headlines, maybe also because of the visit to Washington DC by Israel's

01:28:16.320 - 01:28:35.080

Prime Minister Mr. Shamir. How do you think one should judge it though? I mean people listening today for instance to what the President is going to say here and how Mrs. Thatcher replies, should they be looking for anything specific, any real advance in agreements on any of the issues

01:28:35.160 - 01:28:54.020

that separate Britain and the Soviet Union, or should they be looking for some more generalities about the way people would like things to go forward? Generalities are also important because there are two ways of looking at things in an international scene. One way is in confrontational way, it's the old way, and the other way is new

01:28:54.020 - 01:29:10.620

way, new political thinking, when we emphasize the priority of global and humanistic values. That's the message. And are there going to be what I call water bombs thrown into the speech to surprise everybody, like he did at the United Nations at the end of last year?

01:29:10.620 - 01:29:23.700

Are there going to be surprises? Well, we don't have an unlimited supply of these water bombs. There will be some specific. Well, now, with Mr. Garazimov is Alex Pravda of the Institute of International Affairs.

01:29:23.700 - 01:29:40.860

As a sort of, I don't know whether you call him an independent watcher, certainly you're not part of the Soviet foreign ministry, taking a sort of outsider's view, what do you read into what's going on here and what we're going to see in a moment here in Guildhall. Well basically this visit is taking advantage of the fact that British-Soviet relations

01:29:40.860 - 01:29:58.980

have improved markedly over the past four years, thickening the dialogue, establishing well-known positions. I think there's an agreement to disagree on fundamentals like nuclear deterrence. On the other hand, the fact that the disagreements can take place and yet the dialogue can go on is a sign of major improvements. Today's speech I don't expect will give us anything

01:29:58.980 - 01:30:17.740

remarkably shatteringly new, that it will be an opportunity to talk about the Soviet vision of our common European house, the whole notion of Europe being one, unity, and also perhaps mentioning, as it's London, and London has an Atlantic dimension, the role that the United States is seen to play from the Soviet point of view in this European house.

01:30:17.740 - 01:30:36.260

Are you slightly surprised that I called it the gush that's accompanied this, and it is extraordinary how the reporting of this event so far has dwelt on quite normal human things like Mr Gorbachev going to Western Strabo and being moved by it as one would expect. Do you think there's a danger of people getting an overblown view of the closeness of the

01:30:36.260 - 01:30:52.580

relationship simply because these two leaders get on well together? I think there's usual media hype about any visit of this kind. On the other hand, I think it's a healthy corrective to the old attitude that anything that the Soviet Union was doing was full of hostility and so on, and there's enough emphasis on the differences.

01:30:52.580 - 01:31:05.180

Well thank you very much indeed, and thank you Mr Grasemoff. I hope you'll stay with to the after the speech and we'll talk to you about what's in it. Yes, because the Soviet president is just on his way here. You can just see the lights flashing in Queen Street.

01:31:05.180 - 01:31:21.580

He comes led by a police escort. And I don't believe that is Gorbachev because it's the wrong kind of car. He doesn't travel in a Rolls Royce, not yet. Anyhow, he still travels in a Zil imported from Moscow, especially for this.

01:31:21.580 - 01:31:36.220

So that's another distinguished visitor coming here. Now here, on the other hand, is what looks far more promising. There's that line-- yes, indeed, the line of cars with the Soviet flag and the British flag,

01:31:36.220 - 01:31:55.620

bringing Mr. Gorbachev and Raisa to this entrance to Guildhall. [MUSIC PLAYING] Now, the ceremonial here will be kept to a minimum this morning. It's really a matter of coming in and Raisa there,

01:31:55.620 - 01:32:13.600

who's been all around London over the last few days. The Lord Mayor greets Mr. Gorbachev, the Lady Marys, interpreters on each side.

01:32:13.600 - 01:32:25.980

And Raisa, who cuts a great dash in the West, but isn't actually quite as popular in the Soviet Union, where wives of leaders are normally kept rather in the background, and there's some resentment of her style,

01:32:25.980 - 01:32:33.980

though it's been tremendously successful in the West, and particularly in the United States. The Russians are very excited by the reception that she's had.

01:32:33.980 - 01:32:40.780

They know how important it is, particularly in American politics, to make a personal impact. So we don't see much,

01:32:40.780 - 01:32:49.420

except the back of Mr. Gorbachev's head there, and the mace preceding him, and the marshal in the cocaded hat, Colonel John Howard at the front,

01:32:49.420 - 01:33:15.420

as this little procession goes into Guildhall and turns right into the corridor and makes its way to the Print Room. And here inside, again, Colonel John Howard. And then on the left, carrying the sword, Colonel John Ansell.

01:33:15.420 - 01:33:42.780

On the right, Colonel David Tucker with the mace. And the Lord Mayor and Mr Gorbachev. Raisa behind and bringing up the back of the parade the tall figure of the man called the Remembrance, Adrian Barnes in the little grey wig.

01:33:42.780 - 01:34:02.340

And so he will go as the Prime Minister did to be presented to some of the leading figures from the city here. The city has played host to other important Russians that Mr. Gorbachev no doubt knows about.

01:34:02.340 - 01:34:12.420

There was a big dinner here, for instance, in 1814 for Alexander I and the King of Prussia celebrating the defeat of Napoleon on the retreat from Moscow.

01:34:12.420 - 01:34:27.000

And on that occasion, the guild hall welcomed Alexander I. They put scarlet cloth all over these walls, they put out their best gold plate. It was a terrific reception after the dashing attacks that the Russians had made on Napoleon

01:34:27.000 - 01:34:41.640

as he retreated in that winter of 1812 from Moscow, losing 170,000 French troops as he went. And as I was saying earlier, this link between the city and Moscow is a very old one, goes back to the middle of the 16th century.

01:34:41.640 - 01:35:18.400

So he meets the remembrance here and the chief commoner, Peter Revel Smith. These figures who manage the hugely wealthy investments of the city in property and land. And then the crowd at the bottom of your screen waiting, a number of distinguished guests, guests, mainly politicians, some academics, some people from the think tanks.

01:35:18.400 - 01:35:34.040

Many of them who've been on this circuit over the last two days were perhaps at dinner at number 10 last night when Mrs. Thatcher talked about the quiet revolution that Gorbachev was achieving in the Soviet Union. And just a few of them are presented.

01:35:34.040 - 01:35:48.840

And after that, these distinguished guests will leave and go into the main hall, the Guild Hall, and the President will sign the Distinguished Visitor's Book. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Mr.

01:35:48.840 - 01:35:57.060

Runcie, who was in Moscow himself for the celebration of the anniversary of the Russian Church, and met Mr. Gorbachev then, the Prime Minister and Denis Thatcher,

01:35:57.060 - 01:36:08.320

on the right of the picture there. And the Marshal, in the meantime, arranging for the Distinguished Guests, who are not in the procession that goes in with Mr. Gorbachev,

01:36:08.320 - 01:36:31.320

are asked to leave the print room and make their way to their seats. And this is the third visit of the crowd bookshop to Britain. One of them was a very brief one. When he became head of state, he went to Brise, Norton, on his way to see Ronald Reagan in the United States.

01:36:31.320 - 01:36:52.800

And an earlier visit, which was rather longer, just before he became head of state, President Chernenko, which was the occasion when the Prime Minister talked about Mr Gorbachev being a man that she could deal with. And this visit was the one that was put off owing to the earthquake in Armenia in December

01:36:52.800 - 01:37:12.320

when he was going to pay a longer visit to Britain. and he's made this the first of his visits since he became in this year, which he's going to go as well to Germany and to France, perhaps in no way as politically significant as this visit,

01:37:12.320 - 01:37:14.320

but this is repaying...