00:00:00.000 - 00:00:29.960

[AUDIO OUT] --any major issue. The official Catholic Church of China was swift to follow suit. Its vice president declared, in his words,

00:00:29.960 - 00:00:40.360

The students have good intentions. They want to give the country a better future. In Beijing, the defiant mood went all the way to the grassroots of the state church.

00:00:40.360 - 00:00:53.400

Half of the 70 students studying at the Beijing Theological Seminary skipped classes to join the demonstrators in Tiananmen Square, even though they were warned by officials that it could mean expulsion.

00:00:53.400 - 00:01:01.400

Even house churches made a show of support. They rarely make public appearances for fear of discrimination. One house church leader in Beijing

00:01:01.400 - 00:01:13.720

carried a 10-foot high cross to the square. He led his 50-strong congregation to serve congee, a Chinese porridge, to the hungry students. Another congregation went to the students

00:01:13.720 - 00:01:24.880

and prayed with them, urging them to carry on in their campaign. With the hardline elements winning power now, the church can expect to be dealt some harsh blows.

00:01:24.880 - 00:01:37.320

Yet the Beijing Christians are not afraid. One said, in his words, "Either way, we win with God. If the hardliners do their worst, the persecution will only drive more towards God.

00:01:37.320 - 00:01:50.760

If the reformers are restored, the freedom will be exploited to spread the gospel more widely." A three-week hunger strike was staged on Moscow's Arbat by supporters of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

00:01:50.760 - 00:02:03.960

The first week involved 200 people. After that, 30 to 50 people were on strike, replaced on a rotating basis by a new contingent of strikers arriving regularly in the capital from the Ukraine.

00:02:03.960 - 00:02:17.640

Except for arrests and brief detention of five strikers on May 26, the police and KGB did not interfere. The strike was the focal point of daily religious services attended by hundreds of Moscovites.

00:02:17.640 - 00:02:29.860

The strikers were calling for the complete legalization of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Meanwhile, Metropolitan Philaret, Russian Orthodox Exarch of Ukraine, has reaffirmed his church's

00:02:29.860 - 00:02:41.100

resolute opposition to the legalization of the Ukrainian Catholic Church or the restoration of the Ukrainian autocephalous Orthodox Church. His comments were recorded in an interview

00:02:41.100 - 00:02:55.500

in the Kiev government daily, Radiansk Ukraina. For the first time in its 45-year history, the registered Baptist Church in the Soviet Union has issued detailed statistics on its membership.

00:02:55.500 - 00:03:07.700

Information available indicates there are 260,000 believers, mostly in the Union of Evangelical Christian Baptist Churches. 15,000 are reportedly from unregistered churches,

00:03:07.700 - 00:03:19.700

and 8,000 in independently registered churches. In addition, the union knows of 40,000 Pentecostals, equally divided between the unregistered and independently registered.

00:03:19.700 - 00:03:32.020

The union consists of over 2,500 congregations. Figures given for the unregistered Baptists are much lower than those claimed by the movement itself. Western spokesman Georgi Vins has

00:03:32.020 - 00:03:42.740

reported up to 2,000 congregations with 100,000 members. Roman Catholic activists in Lithuania have announced they are re-establishing

00:03:42.740 - 00:03:54.820

a Christian Democratic Party in the republic. Their 15-point program is summed up in the call on the state to end all interference in church affairs and abolish the post of government overseer

00:03:54.820 - 00:04:04.340

of religious affairs. The new organization is not recognized by the Soviet authorities because it openly calls itself a party and thus contradicts

00:04:04.340 - 00:04:15.860

the constitutional monopoly of the Communist Party. Atheists and believers recently met in a televised dialogue on spiritual problems in Riga, Latvia.

00:04:15.860 - 00:04:24.340

The conference was largely organized by the Lutheran clergy. The TV producer, Reverend Uris Rubinus, felt that the clergy needed more practice

00:04:24.340 - 00:04:36.700

in discussing spiritual matters with secular opponents. Although the conference participants were not entirely in agreement as to the meaning of the word "spiritual," they ended by adopting a viewpoint favorable

00:04:36.700 - 00:04:49.140

to Christianity and its values. The Marxist-Leninist view was rejected as irrelevant to spiritual matters. Romanian authorities have moved against the Baptist Church

00:04:49.140 - 00:05:01.420

in the town of Comănesti in Moldavia. On May 31st, the streets surrounding the church were blocked off and heavy machinery was moved in. The 200-seat church was completely demolished.

00:05:01.420 - 00:05:12.420

Even trees were uprooted and the ground was plowed up. Flowers were reportedly planted so that there was no sign that the church ever stood on the site. The authorities had already detained the church's pastor

00:05:12.420 - 00:05:30.500

as well as four church elders. All have now been freed, but all were reportedly beaten during their detention. Verbal permission from local authorities was given two years ago to convert a former home into the church, but new local authorities claim that it had been built without proper authorization.

00:05:30.500 - 00:05:58.220

That's the latest religious news in communist lands from Keston College. I'm Paul Esterbrooks. You can subscribe to the bi-monthly publication Frontier Magazine, focusing on religious life and events in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Please send $20, which includes postage, to Keston, Canada, 200 Balmoral Avenue, Toronto, M4V1J6.

00:05:58.220 - 00:06:17.980

You may also subscribe to the fortnightly news bulletin, the Keston News Service. It is full of up-to-the-minute news and background information about the religious scene in the communist world. 24 issues cost $48, which includes postage. Please send Check Your Money order to Keston, Canada.

00:06:17.980 - 00:06:37.280

[music] Thank you, Paul. We have a rare privilege today of visiting with two eminent churchmen of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. With us here is Bishop Isidor Beretsky, Eparch of Toronto and Eastern Canada for Ukrainian Catholics,

00:06:37.280 - 00:06:56.280

and His Eminence Cardinal Miroslav Lwaczewski, head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church from Rome. We're delighted to have you with us, and as I say, it's a privilege to be here with you. Welcome to our program. I think, first of all, Cardinal, the Ukrainian Catholic Church is not a church

00:06:56.280 - 00:07:08.280

that's the most familiar to many of our viewers, and perhaps we could start with a brief explanation about what the Ukrainian Catholic Church is and perhaps something of its recent history.

00:07:08.280 - 00:07:30.800

It started in 988 with the christening of Ukraine by our leader and king, Vladimir the Great. And since then it existed. was in the beginning of the Catholic, because we received the baptism from Byzantium when there

00:07:30.800 - 00:08:15.240

wasn't a split before. It started in 1854, and then they split Rome with Byzantium. And since that time, the Church existed without any difficulty. But then with the time came good friends of ours, especially with Moscow, which had its origin 250 years after 1988, and start a revitalization. They were trying to take more people of ours. So it was war against

00:08:15.240 - 00:08:44.640

us and it lasted until Peter I. After Peter I, we were occupied and he started to destroy the Catholic Church because of the Orthodoxy, of Russian Orthodox. And since then, we were, I would say, almost enslaved by the Russians. And we tried to defend ourselves,

00:08:44.640 - 00:08:57.240

but gradually we had to be moved west under Poland protection. The Catholic Church was still existing. And then finally, under Austrian,

00:08:57.240 - 00:09:15.340

the Catholic Church remained existing. But recently, in 1946, The Catholic Church was destroyed completely by Stalin's regime in the so-called Pseudo-Synod in Lviv in 1946.

00:09:15.340 - 00:09:29.620

All the bishops were taken prisoners, sent in Siberia or just killed in the prisons. With them, they have taken 1,000 priests together, kept them for 10 years, then released them.

00:09:29.620 - 00:09:39.260

Of course, many of them died. Some of them came back home, but they were unable to survive for a long time. - So since 1946, the church has been underground,

00:09:39.260 - 00:09:45.940

has not existed. - That's right, until now. - In the Ukraine. - In Ukraine. - But how large is the church bishop in the Ukraine?

00:09:45.940 - 00:09:54.740

How many adherents does it have, other bishops and clergy? - We have many, many adherents. First of all, we have at the present time

00:09:54.740 - 00:10:09.360

more than 10 bishops in the underground church. We have over 1,000 priests. We have several hundred nuns, sisters, and brothers, and our community is very, very strong underground.

00:10:09.360 - 00:10:22.060

- Just not to make the picture more confusing, but I understand there also are two other large churches in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church,

00:10:22.060 - 00:10:28.940

and also the Russian Orthodox. - And the Russian Orthodox. - How do they compare in size with each other? - The Russian Orthodox, of course,

00:10:28.940 - 00:10:49.900

they are trying to take all the faithful into their churches. As you know, as His Eminence just mentioned, then in '46 they forced us into the Russian Orthodoxy in the Synod. And now they have seminaries, one is in Odessa and then in Leningrad and then Zagorsk.

00:10:49.900 - 00:11:03.500

They're educating their priests there. Most of them, originally they are Greek Catholics or Ukrainian Catholics. Some of the families been in Siberia, but now these young men, of course, they joined the seminary.

00:11:03.500 - 00:11:15.040

They educate them and send them into our villages. First of all, not in Russia, but in Western Ukraine, where we were all solidly Catholic. So put them in those villages.

00:11:15.040 - 00:11:28.460

And of course, the people, they have no other way to worship. They go to those churches. But still, they want to be in their own, as I went to my village. So they reopened the church after so many years.

00:11:28.460 - 00:11:39.920

But as I was there, so they allowed me only to enter with few of my friends. And the rest of my people, as they wanted them to come with me, they said to stay behind.

00:11:39.920 - 00:11:50.380

They couldn't enter with me. - Let's just then explain the situation of the third church, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church. - Autocephalous Church, of course,

00:11:50.380 - 00:12:08.180

till now they haven't shown up too much because they're partly, I'm sure they were worshipping with other Orthodox churches, but now they formed a group of autocephalous Christians and they want to be just as well liberated as the Ukrainian Catholics.

00:12:08.180 - 00:12:19.180

As the Ukrainian Catholic Church, yes. You personally had a very exciting celebration just recently. Yes. I understand that your 50th year as a priest and your 40th year as a bishop.

00:12:19.180 - 00:12:44.340

as a bishop. So we had the celebrations and we had the greetings from Ukraine from Archbishop Straniuk and they had special celebration, the Holy Mass, and they are praying on my intention, for the Jubilee. I'm sorry, I think we have a film of that event and perhaps we could show that now and you might comment on what we're seeing. So we see first of all

00:12:44.340 - 00:13:12.340

Paul, Basilik. We see several priests, we had nuns, and many, many people. And they are praying in the forest because there's no, they're not allowed to use any churches. So that's why in summer they had forests and fields and other places. But during the winter months they have to do it in their homes and basements and always in hiding. Even today, when they come, they had a big service in Zerbanecia in one of the places

00:13:12.340 - 00:13:25.060

places, where there were so many miracles of the Blessed Virgin Mary, there were about 15,000-16,000 people. In the background there we see, I think, militia. And there are militia watching.

00:13:25.060 - 00:13:37.260

Of course, they couldn't do anything because there were so many people together. So the church really is repressed and has a very hard time. It is repressed and still, and many times there are some arrests and detainment and so on.

00:13:37.260 - 00:13:58.260

So we are praying now and working for that moment that we will liberate it. I understand there was a hunger strike, as we heard in our news report from Paul, going on in Moscow and the Ukraine. I know that you were in touch with, or I think the Cardinal was in touch with my phone with Moscow.

00:13:58.260 - 00:14:24.300

Perhaps, Your Eminence, you could tell us something about your conversation and what they said. I talked with Bishop Paul Vasilik and he told me they went on a hunger strike because they wanted to see one of those leaders, rather from government. So I don't know how long they were striking, but nevertheless they had an opportunity to

00:14:24.300 - 00:14:45.840

talk to one of them, Orlov. And it was satisfied. I don't know what they talked about, but they stopped their hunger strike. It is wonderful that those striking bishops and striking priests were joined by the Russian

00:14:45.840 - 00:14:56.760

Orthodox people. And they were celebrating mass there. So many hundreds of the Russian Orthodox came and assisted the mass. In Moscow?

00:14:56.760 - 00:15:11.760

Yes, and you don't know what the results are of the... No, I didn't talk about it. We had different things to talk about, so I didn't mention it. And he didn't mention it on anything. This has been the year of the millennium in Ukraine and in Russia, of course.

00:15:11.760 - 00:15:29.460

The celebrations are coming to an end. Perhaps you could say a few words about how those celebrations were celebrated and also about the conclusion of them now. Ukrainian Catholics all over the world celebrate, except of USSR.

00:15:29.460 - 00:15:47.940

But we celebrated in America, in Canada, in Brazil, in Argentina, in Paraguay, in Australia, then in Germany, in England, in Yugoslavia, of course, in Rome. The greatest celebration was because we celebrated with the Holy Father

00:15:47.940 - 00:16:01.520

five times he was with us, during the Holy Mass, during devotion and during the concert. And we had a big choir there in St. Peter. We had a high mass with 600 singers choir.

00:16:01.520 - 00:16:15.620

Then we had a concert with 750,000, 750 singers. So even Italian said, "We never heard such choir." (laughing) - A wonderful celebration.

00:16:15.620 - 00:16:24.660

- That's right. And in Poland we had also in Częstochowa. These are now coming to an end. Are they all concluded or are there still some events?

00:16:24.660 - 00:16:35.860

We now concluded here in Toronto. And what is... it has already been concluded? Yes, we had liturgies, a sermon, and then we had a big concert. Yes.

00:16:35.860 - 00:16:55.260

Bishop, you were, I think, a year ago in Ukraine, and perhaps you could say a few words about the words that we're hearing here all the time, Perestroika and Glasnost. What do you think that means for the people in the Catholic Church in Ukraine? For the Catholic Church it doesn't mean much. It means a lot for the Russian Orthodox Church.

00:16:55.260 - 00:17:18.260

As we hear now they are opening 50, 100, several hundred churches, and these churches are all Russian Orthodox. None of our churches has been opened yet. And then as I spoke to some of the clergy and Orthodox clergy, they believe that we have already some churches open. They say, "Well, how does it come?" They tell us that, "Till now they have opened many of your churches."

00:17:18.260 - 00:17:34.260

I said, "None of them has been opened yet." So, first of all, as I mentioned, they are sending their own priests, educated in those seminaries, to our villages, towns, and Perestroika works for them, but nothing for the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

00:17:34.260 - 00:17:47.340

What is the hope, as we look to the future, for the Ukrainian Catholic Church? First of all, we've had this hunger strike. We have this very large church working underground all these years with many bishops.

00:17:47.340 - 00:17:55.660

How do you see the future? What is going to happen? Well, we hope that someday they will allow us to return our churches, first of all, monasteries, schools,

00:17:55.660 - 00:18:07.220

and the rest of it, allow us to have our presence we used to have, because they are taking everything from us. As I was in Lviv, for example, or other towns, and we started with the seminaries in the academy

00:18:07.220 - 00:18:32.740

in Lviv. So the cathedral has been taken by Russian architects, and all the other churches they've taken over. So I felt like, as a stranger, because we couldn't celebrate masses in any of them. Of course, I visited all these churches, they are still decorated nicely, and many people there, but we felt strangers.

00:18:32.740 - 00:18:44.140

How do the people manage if they have no churches to go to? What do they do for worship and so on? Well, some of them, as you know, they're underground. They always celebrate in hiding places,

00:18:44.140 - 00:18:55.260

and in summer, outside in the forests and other places. But in the winter, as I mentioned, in their homes. And many of them, they would go to these churches, Orthodox churches, just for the sake

00:18:55.260 - 00:19:04.180

of being present at the services. But still, they do not go to Holy Communion. They do not go to the Holy Confession, because they don't believe in the Church.

00:19:04.180 - 00:19:25.780

And then they are sometimes they are afraid of this priest to go to the confession. Cardinal, you've made an appeal when you were in England for persecuted Christians throughout the world and for persecuted churches. What is being done here in the diaspora, for example, in Europe, in Canada,

00:19:25.780 - 00:19:39.260

for the Ukraine, and also what might Canadians do? So I appealed twice with President Reagan, and he promised me to support and demand the legalization of our church.

00:19:39.260 - 00:19:52.020

And he did recently, during the millennium in Moscow. In Finland, he was talking three times about legalization of our church. Then in Gorbachev, also he talked about it,

00:19:52.020 - 00:20:01.880

and he said that legalization of the Ukrainian Catholic Church would be a litmus paper that you not only talk about it, but you mean it.

00:20:01.880 - 00:20:12.000

That's a very good point, that in fact, beyond the talk, we'll see in the action whether there's any truth to it. The same thing was said by President Bush during the conference.

00:20:12.000 - 00:20:23.960

He said, they talk about many things, but we expect deeds, not the talks. You know, these recent events that we've been watching, the horror in China,

00:20:23.960 - 00:20:43.560

the oppression of the government on students, on young people, on the future of China, I suppose, in many ways. Do you see any parallel where one party government is in control in China with the similar situation in the Soviet Union, in Ukraine, in other parts?

00:20:43.560 - 00:21:09.880

We see the parallel because not now, but before, after the occupation, they destroyed by hunger seven million Ukrainians. Then by killing many of them, so we lost, they say, during the war and after the war about 20 millions of our people because before the war we had about 50 millions and 50 years after the war we had the same amount of people.

00:21:09.880 - 00:21:38.320

Yes as as you look to the future again could I ask the question what do you think here in Canada those who are watching both of Ukrainian descent and of non-Ukrainian descent what might they do for the situation in the Ukraine? If they want to help, as you said during the synod, to talk about the persecution, make it loud, that the world may hear, and to pray, that's all that they can do.

00:21:38.320 - 00:21:54.940

Yes, so that representation might be made both to members of parliament, I suppose, and... That's right, and they could make pressure upon the government. If someone were to ask, "Well, why should I be concerned about an event so far away, in the Ukraine or in China?"

00:21:54.940 - 00:22:07.400

What would you say to somebody like that? But we are people. We belong to the same race. And usually Americans and Canadians and other free countries, they are for the freedom of

00:22:07.400 - 00:22:25.080

speech, freedom of worship and everything. So for this sake, they should support our people. Thank you very much. It's been our privilege to be today with His Eminence Cardinal Miroslav Lubachewski, head

00:22:25.080 - 00:22:43.840

of the Ukrainian Catholic Church from Rome, and with Bishop Isidore Boretsky, the Eparch of Toronto and Eastern Canada for Ukrainian Catholics. We are delighted to have been with you, and thank you for this privilege. We hope that you'll be with us in our next broadcast.

00:22:43.840 - 00:23:47.360

I'm your starletus wishing you goodbye. [MUSIC PLAYING] [Music] ♪ (dramatic orchestral music)

00:23:47.360 - 00:24:16.340

[ Silence ] [The film is available on the YouTube channel "The Moonlight" for free.] [ Silence ] [ Silence ]

00:24:16.340 - 00:25:15.160

[ Silence ] [PAUSE] First of all, Cardinal, the Ukrainian Catholic Church is not a church that's the most familiar to many of our viewers. And perhaps we could start with a brief explanation about what

00:25:15.160 - 00:25:35.960

the Ukrainian Catholic Church is and perhaps something of its recent history. It started in 1988 with the christening of Ukraine by our leader and King Vladimir the the great. And since then, it existed.

00:25:35.960 - 00:25:48.160

It was in the beginning Catholic, because we received the baptism from Byzantium when there wasn't split before. It started in 1854.

00:25:48.160 - 00:26:02.180

So then they split Rome with Byzantium. And since that time, the church existed without any difficulty. But then with the time came good friends of ours,

00:26:02.180 - 00:26:17.520

especially with Moscow, which had its origin 250 years after 1988, and it started a revitalization.

00:26:17.520 - 00:26:31.400

They were trying to... take more people of ours. So it was war against us. And it lasted until Peter I.

00:26:31.400 - 00:26:47.160

After Peter I, we were occupied, and he started to destroy the Catholic Church because of the Orthodoxy, of Russian Orthodoxy. And since then, we were, I would say,

00:26:47.160 - 00:27:02.280

almost enslaved by the Russians. And we tried to defend ourselves, but gradually we had to be moved west under Poland protection.

00:27:02.280 - 00:27:15.640

The Catholic Church was still existent, and then finally under Austrian, the Catholic Church remained existing, but recently in 1946,

00:27:15.640 - 00:27:29.680

the Catholic Church was destroyed completely by Stalin regime in the so-called Pseudo-Synod in Lviv in 1946. All the bishops were taken prisoners,

00:27:29.680 - 00:27:42.960

sent in Siberia or just killed in the prisons. With them, they have taken thousand priests together, kept them for 10 years, then released them. Of course, many of them died.

00:27:42.960 - 00:27:51.800

Some of them came back home, but they were unable to survive for a long time. - So since 1946, the church has been underground, has not existed.

00:27:51.800 - 00:27:57.720

That's right, until now. In the Ukraine. In the Ukraine. But how large is the church bishop in the Ukraine?

00:27:57.720 - 00:28:12.320

How many adherents does it have, other bishops and clergy? We have many, many adherents. First of all, we have at the present time more than 10 bishops in the underground church. We have over 1,000 priests.

00:28:12.320 - 00:28:32.860

We have several hundred nuns, sisters, and brothers. And our community is very, very strong underground. not to make the picture more confusing but I understand there also are two other large churches in Ukraine the Ukrainian Orthodox Church

00:28:32.860 - 00:28:54.620

and also the Russian Orthodox. How do they compare in size with each other? The Russian Orthodox of course they are trying to take all the faithful into their churches as you know that as His Eminence just mentioned then in 46 they forced us into the Russian Orthodoxy in that Synod.

00:28:54.620 - 00:29:07.460

And now they have seminaries, one is in Odessa, and then in Leningrad, and then Zagorsk. They're educating their priests there. Most of them, originally, they are Greek Catholics

00:29:07.460 - 00:29:15.620

or Ukrainian Catholics. Some of the families have been in Siberia. But now these young men, of course, they joined the seminary.

00:29:15.620 - 00:29:27.100

They educate them and send them into our villages. First of all, not in Russia, but in Western Ukraine, where we were all solidly Catholic. So put them in those villages.

00:29:27.100 - 00:29:36.760

And of course, the people, they have no other way to worship. They go to those churches. But still, they want to be in their own. As I went to my village,

00:29:36.760 - 00:29:49.340

they reopened the church after so many years. But as I was there, they allowed me only to enter with a few of my friends. And the Razmai people, as they wanted them to come with me,

00:29:49.340 - 00:30:00.180

they said to stay behind. They couldn't enter with me. Let's just then explain the situation of the third church, the Ukrainian autocephalous

00:30:00.180 - 00:30:10.180

church. Autocephalous church, of course, till now, they haven't shown up too much because they're partly-- I'm sure they were worshipping with other orthodox churches.

00:30:10.180 - 00:30:26.420

But now, they formed a group of autocephalous Christians. and they want to be just as well liberated as the Ukrainian Catholics. As the Ukrainian Catholic Church, yes. You personally had a very exciting celebration just recently.

00:30:26.420 - 00:30:35.240

Yes. I understand that your 50th year as a priest and your 40th year as a bishop. So we had big celebrations and we had greetings from Ukraine

00:30:35.240 - 00:30:49.780

from Archbishop Stryjnik. And they had special celebration, the Holy Mass, and they are praying on my intention. Yes, I'm sorry. I think we have a film of that event

00:30:49.780 - 00:31:01.820

and perhaps we could show that now and you might comment on what we're seeing. So we see, first of all, Bishop Paul Vasilik. We see several priests, we have nuns and many, many people

00:31:01.820 - 00:31:12.800

and they are praying in the forest because they're not allowed to use any churches. So that's why in summer they have forests and fields and other places.

00:31:12.860 - 00:31:27.440

But during the winter months they have to do it in their homes and basements and always in hiding. Even today when they come they had a big service in Zerwanitsa in one of the places where there were so many miracles

00:31:27.440 - 00:31:36.620

of the Blessed Virgin Mary. There were about 15,000-16,000 people. In the background there we see I think militia. And there are militia watching them.

00:31:36.620 - 00:31:54.560

Of course they couldn't do anything because there are so many people together. So the church really is repressed and has a very hard time. Still, and many times there are some arrests and detainment and so on, but still we are praying now and working for that moment that we will liberate it.

00:31:54.560 - 00:32:12.220

I understand there was a hunger strike, as we heard in our news report from Paul, going on in Moscow and the Ukraine. I know that you were in touch with, or I think the Cardinal was in touch by phone with Moscow. Perhaps, Your Eminence, you could tell us something

00:32:12.220 - 00:32:25.500

about your conversation and what they said. I talked with Bishop Paul Vasilik. And he told me they went on hundred strike because they want to see one of those leaders,

00:32:25.500 - 00:32:38.440

rather, from government. So I don't know how long they were striking, but nevertheless, they had opportunity to talk to one of them, Orlov.

00:32:38.520 - 00:32:50.780

And it was satisfied. I don't know what they talked about, but they stopped their hunger strike. It is wonderful is this,

00:32:50.780 - 00:33:05.460

that to those striking bishop and striking priest were joined by the Russian Orthodox people. And they were celebrating mass there. So many hundreds of the Russian Orthodox

00:33:05.460 - 00:33:10.340

came and assisted the mass. In Moscow. In Moscow. Yes.

00:33:10.340 - 00:33:24.580

And you don't know what the results are of the... No, I didn't talk about it. We had different things to talk about, and he didn't mention it in anything. This has been the year of the millennium in Ukraine and in Russia, of course.

00:33:24.580 - 00:33:38.180

The celebrations are coming to an end. Perhaps you could say a few words about how those celebrations were celebrated and also about the conclusion of them now. We have been in catholics all over the world celebrating,

00:33:38.180 - 00:33:54.820

except of USSR. But we celebrated in America, in Canada, in Brazil, in Argentina, in Paraguay, in Australia, then in Germany, in England, in Yugoslavia,

00:33:54.820 - 00:34:05.560

of course, in Rome, the greatest celebration was because we celebrated with the Holy Father. Five times he was with us, during the Holy Mass, devotion and during the concert.

00:34:05.560 - 00:34:24.120

And we had a big choir there in St. Peter. We had a high mass with 600 singers choir. Then we had a concert with 750 singers. So even Italian said, "We never heard such choir."

00:34:24.120 - 00:34:32.720

(laughing) - A wonderful celebration. - That's right. And in Poland we had also in Częstochowa.

00:34:32.720 - 00:34:40.440

- These are now coming to an end. Are they all concluded or are there still some events? - We now concluded here in Toronto. - And what is, it has already been concluded.

00:34:40.440 - 00:34:51.480

- Yes, we had liturgies, a sermon, and then we had a big concert. - Yes. Bishop, you were, I think a year ago, in Ukraine.

00:34:51.480 - 00:35:00.060

And perhaps you could say a few words about the words that we're hearing here all the time, Perestroika and Glasnos. What do you think that means for the people in--

00:35:00.060 - 00:35:06.980

Well, for the people-- --and for the Catholic Church in the Ukraine? For the Catholic Church, it doesn't mean much. It means a lot for the Russian Orthodox Church.

00:35:06.980 - 00:35:17.900

As we hear now, they are opening 50, 100, several hundred churches. And these churches are all Russian Orthodox. None of our churches has been opened yet.

00:35:17.900 - 00:35:26.820

And then, as I spoke to some of the clergy and Orthodox clergy, they believe that we have already some churches open. They say, "Well, how does it come?

00:35:26.820 - 00:35:45.180

They tell us that till now they have opened many of your churches." I said, "None of them has been opened yet." So first of all, as I mentioned, they are sending their own priests, educated in those seminaries to our villages, towns, and Perestroika works for them, but nothing for the Ukrainian

00:35:45.180 - 00:35:59.080

Catholic Church. What is the hope as we look to the future for the Ukrainian Catholic Church? First of all, we've had this hunger strike. We have this very large church working underground all these years with many bishops.

00:35:59.080 - 00:36:11.080

How do you see the future? What is going to happen? Well, we hope that someday they will allow us to return our churches, first of all, monasteries, schools and the rest of it, allow us to have our presence we used to have.

00:36:11.080 - 00:36:22.100

Because they are taking everything from us. As I was in Lviv, for example, other towns, and we studied with examiners in the academy in Lviv. So the cathedral has been taken by Russian Orthodox,

00:36:22.100 - 00:36:35.320

it is Bishop Nekodim. And all the other churches, they can take it over. So I felt like as a stranger because we couldn't celebrate Masses in any of them.

00:36:35.320 - 00:36:48.000

Of course, I visited all these churches. They are still decorated nicely and many people there, but we felt strangers. How do the people manage if they have no churches to go to?

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What do they do for worship and so on? Well, some of them, as you know, they're underground. They always celebrate in hiding places and in summer outside in forests and other places.

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But in the winter, as I mentioned, in their homes. And many of them, they would go to these churches, Orthodox churches, just for the sake of being present at the services. But still, they do not go to Holy Communion.

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They do not go to the Holy Confession because they don't believe in the Church. And then sometimes they're afraid of these priests go to the confession.

00:37:21.000 - 00:37:49.360

Cardinal, you've made an appeal when you were in England for persecuted Christians throughout the world and for persecuted churches. What is being done here in the diaspora, for example in Europe, in Canada, for the Ukraine, and also what might Canadians do? So I appealed twice with President Reagan, and he promised me to support and demand the

00:37:49.360 - 00:38:03.800

legalization of our church. And he did recently, during the millennium in Moscow. In Finland, he was talking three times about legalization of our church. Then in Gorbachev, also he talked about it.

00:38:03.800 - 00:38:19.320

And he said that legalization of the European Catholic Church would be a litmus paper, that not only talk about it, but you mean it. That's a very good point, that in fact beyond the talk we'll see in the action whether there's any truth to it.

00:38:19.320 - 00:38:41.340

Yes, the same thing was said by President Bush during the conference. He said they talk about many things, but we expect deeds, not the talks. You know, these recent events that we've been watching, the horror in China, the oppression of the government on students, on young people, on the future of China, I suppose, in many

00:38:41.340 - 00:39:09.820

ways. Do you see any parallel where one party government is in control in China with the similar situation in the Soviet Union, in Ukraine, in other parts? We see the parallel because not now but before, after the occupation, they destroyed by hunger 7 million Ukrainians. Then by killing many of them, so we lost, they say, during the

00:39:09.820 - 00:39:34.060

war and after the war, about 20 million of our people. Because before the war we had about 50 million, and 50 years after the war we had the same amount of people. As you look to the future, again, could I ask the question, what do you think here in Canada, those who are watching, both of Ukrainian descent and of non-Ukrainian descent, what

00:39:34.060 - 00:39:56.420

might they do for the situation in the Ukraine? If they want to help, as you said during the synods, to talk about the persecution, that make it loud, that the world may hear, and to pray, that's all that they can do. So that representation might be made both to members of Parliament, I suppose.

00:39:56.420 - 00:40:08.140

And they could make pressure upon the government. If someone were to ask, "Well, why should I be concerned about an event so far away in the Ukraine or in China?" What would you say to somebody like that?

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But we are people. We belong to the same race. And usually Americans and Canadians and other free countries, they are for the freedom of speech, freedom of worship and everything.

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So for this sake, they should support our people. Thank you very much. It's been our privilege to be today with His Eminence Cardinal Miroslav Lubachewski, head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church from Rome, and with Bishop Isidore Boretsky, the Eparch of Toronto and Eastern Canada for Ukrainian Catholics. We are delighted

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to have been with you and thank you for this privilege. We hope that you'll be with us in our next broadcast. I'm your Stzalitis wishing you goodbye. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC]

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