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communism throughout the world. [Music] Karl Marx said that in the new socialist order, religion would wither away. Today, one third of the world's population lives under Marxist rule.

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[Music] But at least 250 million Christians live in the same societies. Two systems of belief apparently at odds. [Music]

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In the world's first communist state, the Soviet Union, the party began by trying to exterminate religion. The church has survived, but at a cost. In the latest Marxist-inspired revolution, Nicaragua,

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the government has encouraged Christians to join with it, a unique experiment which has split the church. (upbeat music) In the first of a four-part series,

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every man looks at how Christians have adapted to the world's oldest and newest Marxist revolutions. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

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(singing in foreign language) These novice priests belong to a Russian Orthodox monastery. The ritual prayers and language have hardly changed in the church's thousand-year history. But none of these young men has ever seen Russia.

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They belong to the Russian church abroad. (singing in foreign language) Holy Trinity Monastery lies in the heart of the American countryside in upstate New York.

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It was started by two monks who fled Russia after the revolution. Now it's the largest Russian Orthodox monastery outside the Soviet Union.

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Father Theodosius teaches church history. The Russian Orthodox Church will celebrate its millennium in 1988. For over 900 years of that history,

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it embodied the spirituality of the Russian people. But for the last 70 years, matters have been more complicated. For these exiles, the partnership

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between their mother church and the Soviet state is heresy. So we regard the church in Russia now, in the Soviet Union, as a puppet church and not free to express the voice of the Russian church.

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And so for that reason we have no relations with it. The task of the church is to preserve it from anti-Christian and communistic forces. And that is what we see then abroad as our major role. In fact, there are some people here in the monastery,

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mostly of the older generation, who see the role of the church abroad solely as preserving the past. (speaking in foreign language)

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- As the monks eat, they listen to readings from the lives of the saints. These hundred monks and seminarians They call themselves the guardians of the forgotten past.

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Every day they say prayers for Tsar Nicholas II, the last Russian emperor, whom they canonized four years ago. Father Kiprian is the monastery's chief painter of icons.

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He grew up in St. Petersburg, but left Russia after fighting with the White Army against the Bolshevik revolutionaries. [ Speaking French ]

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there are a lot of people and a lot of younger monks who have a conviction that we are not far from the end of the world and before the end will actually take place there will be a return to Russia. So in that sense we all look forward to a return because it will be a resurrection of the old Russia. [singing]

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Marx said religion is the opium of the people, the sigh of the oppressed creature, a heart of a heartless world. Throughout the 19th century anticlerical feeling had been growing. For Marx, the need for religion is the symptom of the disease, capitalism.

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Religion would disappear once the disease had been cured. Freed from material deprivation, man would also be free from the clutches of the church. [Music] Russia, October 1917.

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the storming of the Winter Palace, and the triumph of the Bolshevik Revolution. Lenin leads the world's first communist state. Everything from the past,

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everything which stands in the way of change, is under attack, and that includes the church. Lenin detested religion, that unutterable vileness, he called it.

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Church leaders were paraded through the streets, anti-religious demonstrations encouraged. The new Soviet constitution separated church from state. Church property was confiscated, all legal rights were denied, priests opposing the Bolsheviks were imprisoned or shot, and within a decade the bulk of the church hierarchy had declared support for

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the new Soviet government. Under Lenin's successor, Stalin, the anti-church campaign was even more vigorous. Under Stalinism, Russia was to be transformed in 20 years. There was no room for the church and its spirituality in the world of new communist man.

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(upbeat music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music)

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(dramatic music) [Music] In the 1920s and especially in the 1930s, the Russian Orthodox Church and all religious bodies,

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it has to be said, in the Soviet Union, in the 1930s especially, were under extreme pressure. In fact, it was hoped that they would simply be exterminated as bodies, that religious belief would cease

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to be an active force, that believers would, in fact, not not be noticed, and that, indeed, religious belief would be abandoned by all and sundry, since it hindered progress, so it was said, since it hindered clarity of thought, since it hindered industrial performance, all sorts of phrases were used to justify combating religion.

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And combated it was in various ways, the closing down of churches, the multiple arrests of bishops, priests, and laypeople. By the time the Second World War began which in various parts of the Soviet Union was either 39 or 41 There was only a minimal Quantity of churches open and of clergy active for example the Russian Orthodox Church

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It is reckoned had only four bishops who were openly active The rest were in concentration camps or had been killed off [explosion] The Russians were unprepared for war.

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The invasion by Hitler's forces took them by surprise. And as the Germans marched deeper and deeper into Soviet territory, laying siege to key cities, defeat seemed inevitable. With the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941,

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there was a crisis in the establishment. Really, the question was, would the Soviet Union survive as a Soviet Union? Anything that could be used to sustain the war effort was important, even religion. Stalin permitted a sort of mini-council to elect a patriarch, the first one since 1925.

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he allowed the church to bless the war effort really in terms of making it a holy war to save Russian civilization. The word "Russian" was being used now with new relish

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as compared to "Soviet" merely. That concordat between the Orthodox Church and the Communist Party continues to this day. In essence, the state claims authority

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over everything political and material and confines the church to religious ceremonies within its own buildings. The church must stay out of politics and its leaders must swear loyalty to a government

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which is constitutionally committed to the building of an entirely communist state. (singing in foreign language) - Communist Party rules say that it is the duty of each member to lead a resolute struggle

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against the survivals of religion. Militant atheism is encouraged throughout society. For many believers, the restrictions demanded by the state are too great. Those who can get visas leave the country.

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On New York's Brighton Beach, you'll find hundreds of Russians who say that only in exile are they able to practice their beliefs without restriction. "The block is easy" Vadim Sheglov and his family

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came to the United States two years ago In Moscow, he belonged to a group of Christians who agitated for religious rights and publicized the harassment and imprisonment of believers

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[ Speaking Russian ] My wife was a teacher at the school. She was told that she was fired for religious propaganda. I was demoted to a position.

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Three times I was called to the prosecutor's office and warned that if I didn't stop, as they called the activities of the Christian Committee, anti-Soviet activities,

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I would be put in prison. A network of underground churches exists for those religious dissidents who stay behind in Russia. Services are held in secret and participants face imprisonment for taking part in the activities of an unregistered church.

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This secret orthodox service was led by Father Gleb Yakunin, now serving a 10-year jail sentence. These dissidents believe that their church is prostituting itself by its silence in the face of violations of religious and human rights. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]

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The church is often accused of being silent when it should speak out. Silence is not in itself an evil thing. When it's keeping silence in order to safeguard treasures

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which are but the property of millions, which therefore is a silence for pastoral reasons, I think there is a justification for it. If in the process,

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the reputation of the silent one is reduced, this can't be helped. The justification is called into question. But what is beyond question is a desire for religion

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which 70 years of communism has failed to eradicate. There are still at least 50 million Christians in the Soviet Union. The struggle for the soul of the Communist Party has been completely lost. Moreover, it can be said that now

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the interest of people and youth in religion is increasing, because the communist ideology is completely spiritual, and even the propagandists themselves, the communists, do not take it seriously.

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Marxism may have failed as a spiritual belief in the Soviet Union, the most successful revolutionary faith of the century. Outside the Soviet Union, 1,500 million people live in Marxist-inspired societies,

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and here different models for church-state relations are being worked out. As Marxism has spread and developed in different countries, the church has had to work out its own response.

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After the war, the Vatican confronted the largest communist party in the Western world on its own doorstep. The success of the Italian Communist Party would have been impossible without its pragmatic

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acceptance of the influence of the Catholic Church. Christians were encouraged to join the party. And the Church's attitude also changed. Pope John XXIII's ambition was to confront the Church with the realities of the 20th century. In 1963, he summoned over 3,000 bishops from around the world for the confrontation.

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Vatican II. They included priests from Russia with a lifetime's experience of Marxism and from Latin America, whose encounter was about to begin.

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It didn't see itself directly as a response to Marxism, no. But it was in the sense that it picked up a lot of the themes that were in the air. And there's a very remarkable text

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which says that he who neglects his duties towards his neighbor neglects God and so on. So there's a change in the attitude from fleeing the world to working within it for the kingdom.

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- In Latin America, the church's poorest and fastest growing territory, this new concern for the material as well as the spiritual well-being of the flock

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met with the greatest response. Here the church has a history of neglecting the poor and siding with the rich and the powerful. In 1968, at Medellin, the Latin American bishops met.

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This was a very important meeting because it was for them the application of the Council to the special conditions of Latin America, and they discovered that they were an oppressed continent. And so the message would have to be preached differently there,

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and they particularly liked the phrase in the Council text which said that the Church shares in the joys and hopes of all peoples, especially those who are poor or afflicted in any way. For some priests, this new liberation theology

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has meant using the tools of Marxist analysis to achieve what's called an option for the poor. Parishioners are taught Marxist as well as Christian principles.

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But others believe liberation theology has gone too far. Leading the opposition has been Cardinal Ratzinger's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It says that Marxist analysis has no part

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to play in true liberation. Any commitments to Marxist ideas can only lead to totalitarianism and atheism. Liberation itself is an extremely ambiguous word. I saw the other day, a friend of mine had an invitation, and it was to an embassy here

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in Rome to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the liberation of the People's Republic of Albania. So they're using that word. And so you had the problem, at least the fact, that there were people who have highly political,

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if you will, Marxist solutions to people's problems, and you had the Catholic Church in the person of many bishops and priests and religious using the same language. [choral singing] When Pope John Paul II called his Extraordinary Synod last year

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to determine the future direction of the Catholic Church, many saw it as an attempt to discredit liberation theology and undermine its influence. [choral singing]

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I think the case of the Pope is really rather simple. He is Polish and he has his experience of Marxism, which is wholly bad. Marxism has brought nothing to Poland, it's an alien tradition.

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So when he sees people saying things that sound like what Marxists are saying, then he, in the most literal sense of the word, sees red. Of course, the classic instance of this was when he went to Nicaragua and making his usual speech,

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in which he begins by praising this noble people of Nicaragua, "I salute the noble people of Nicaragua "and commend you for your courage in overcoming," and they thought they were going to say the hated dictatorship,

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but he said, "the effects of the disastrous earthquake." And there was an ooo of disappointment went round, nothing good at all to say about the revolution. When the Pope came to Nicaragua in 1983,

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his first gesture was to wag his finger disapprovingly at Father Ernesto Cardinal, Minister of Culture in the revolutionary government. Cardinal is one of four priests

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holding government office in defiance of the Pope. This is a unique thing in history. We believe that we have the obligation to occupy positions in this revolution,

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not positions in the government to be served, but positions in a revolution to serve. Later, as the Pope celebrated Mass with the people of Nicaragua, his homily was interrupted by the crowd's chants for peace.

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(crowd chanting) [CHANTING] (crowd chanting) (speaking in foreign language)

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Pope John Paul had arrived in a country divided by war, not just civil war, but a war within the Catholic Church itself. (Man speaking in French) (crowd cheering)

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Nicaragua is a predominantly Catholic country in the throes of a Marxist-inspired revolution. Initially, the whole of the Church supported the popular revolt of 1979 the American-backed Somoza regime.

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But when the Sandinista coalition of Marxists and left-wingers became the ruling party, loyalties divided. Fidel Castro's blessing of the presidential installation of Daniel Ortega encouraged the fears of the conservative sectors of the church that Nicaragua was on the road to communism.

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But another radical section of the church has no such worries. It calls itself the popular church, the church of the poor. Father Uriel Molina has his church in the Reguero district of Managua. Molina worked with the Sandinistas when they were a guerrilla force.

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Today his church is a center for revolutionary theology. [ Music ] Now, is Karl Marx essentially an atheist? That's a question.

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It seems that the connotations of Marxist philosophy are not so clear. However, Marxism is a science that is evolving. And in Nicaragua and Latin America,

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the contribution we can see to Marxist theory is that religious belief does not necessarily contradict Marxist philosophy. I'm trying to make the people of Nicaragua understand

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that this revolution has many points of convergence with Christian doctrine and therefore with the Gospel of Jesus. In his sermons Molina speaks of the Sandinistas as brothers of Jesus, whose social policies are helping to build the kingdom of God in Nicaragua.

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[Spanish] Parishioners like Mrs. Felipe Obando share his revolutionary enthusiasm. [ Foreign Language ] [ Singing ]

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If Sandinistas adopt the social message of Christ, religion is no longer necessary. I think religion is still necessary because, in addition to a social message,

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religion points to the ultimate and transcendent character of human existence. So we have to fight, within the Christian perspective, for the construction of the Kingdom of God in the world.

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[ Music ] (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language)

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[ Music ] (singing in foreign language) [ Music ] [Spanish]

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Felix Tobias belongs to one of a network of revolutionary Christian communities in Nicaragua. The land they're harvesting was farmed for cattle under Somoza and confiscated by the government after the revolution. (leaves rustling)

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[ Foreign Language ] "I want to live in peace in my little house." Members of the community meet regularly for Bible study. For these people, present-day politics and the Christian faith are inseparable.

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"What?" "Denounce the injustices." "That's what Juan Bautista did." (speaking in foreign language)

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- Today's passage is about John the Baptist. Herod is compared to Somoza, and John the Baptist to Carlos Fonseca, the founder of the Sandinista party

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who was murdered under Somoza. Both, it's made clear, died to liberate their people. The links between the church and the revolution were forged in the jungle during the struggle against Tomoza.

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Father Ernesto Cardinal, reprimanded by the Pope for holding a government post as Minister of Culture, was actively involved with the Sandinista rebels. The treasures that we are in public possession

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We are in this revolution because we believe we are fulfilling a Christian and a priestly mission. It is the first revolution in the world with the massive support of Christians. We cannot be absent in it. As priests, we have to act in presence.

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It's a historical reality, an opportunity that for the first time occurs in the history of the Church. In New York, in self-imposed exile, a former editor on the Nicaragua's newspaper La Prensa

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and disillusioned Sandinista, Humberto Belli. Well, the Christian priests who are with the Sandinista regime are self-confessed Marxist Christians, Christians who are with the revolution because the revolution is Marxist. They have identified Marxist belief and Christian belief as meaning about the same thing and

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sharing the same goals. So the Sandinistas found this priest a very useful asset in order to deceive international public opinion into believing that the Marxist regime was not truly

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a Marxist-Leninist regime, as it is the case. - Nicaragua's Minister of the Interior, Tomás Borge, is the sole survivor of the original Sandinistas. - Our relationship with the Church and with the Christians

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is not a tactical relationship, nor to gain time. We have our feet on the ground. Christianity has survived and developed over 2000 years. We would be insolent and stupid if we wanted to end Christianity by decree.

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Regardless of my support of the moral principles of Christianity, they have been taken by the Sandinista revolution as the moral principles of the revolution. We believe that Christianity will survive and that the Sandinista revolution is not an enemy of Christianity

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and is not willing to destroy it. The head of the Nicaraguan church is unconvinced by these protestations of friendship. Cardinal Obando Ibravo insists that the government is communist and has given his blessing to the Contras, a guerrilla force opposing the Sandinistas.

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The issue is made even more confusing by the claim made by the US-backed Contras that they are fighting a religious war for the preservation of the church. - We are fighting to liberate the country

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from the communists. All the Nicaraguan people never want the communists because we love the God, we love to be free, we want to be free all the time.

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- The cardinal's support to the Contras is applauded by the United States government, which recently made persecution of the church a justification for its support

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to the contra freedom fighters. (speaking in foreign language) and other hierarchs of the Church, has led to religious scepticism

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in the consciousness of many young people in Nicaragua. In fact, the number of non-believers in this country has increased as a result of the hostile, sometimes rude, attitude of absolute silence

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towards the crimes of the US government against Nicaragua and of identification with President Reagan's speech and other hierarchs of the Church. So the revolution has not been the one that has been harmed,

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nor will it be the one that is harmed, but the Church itself. It's not just the government who are angered by the Cardinal's stance. Some 8,000 people have died in counter-attacks since the revolution,

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most of them civilians, and half of them under the age of 21. The town of La Trinidad has had its share of deaths. [ Singing ] Now that the counterattack against the Trinidad has begun,

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we were able to witness 17 corpses here in the church that celebrated the mass. [singing] A person who only comes to destroy, to hurt, to kill and to murder innocent people,

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like to say, disarmed peasants, cannot have the hope of being here again, sitting very calmly, when he is only trying to murder the people and to hurt them. Monsignor Obando does not worry because he, as a Christian and knower of the word of God,

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I should have felt the pain of the people's cry for all the murders that are committed on the border. Cardinal Obando sees himself and his bishops fighting for the survival of the Church.

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And although the government denies it, he has wide popular support. He travels the country presenting himself as the Cardinal of Peace and Defender of the Church.

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And his supporters claim there is growing evidence of religious persecution. Well, the Sandinistas have been depriving the institutional church and those protestant organizations which are not supportive of the Sandinista regime of any access to the

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mass media. The mass media is tightly controlled by the Sandinistas. The Nicaraguan Christian churches have become churches of silence. Several priests have been expelled, 20 Catholic priests so far.

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Several churches have been attacked by mobs. There is no freedom of expression for the Christian churches. The propaganda war extends to the airwaves. Last month, after a period of censorship, the church radio station, Radio Católica,

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was closed down for refusing to transmit the president's New Year peace message. No one has ever forbidden religious activity in our country. We have decided to oppose the instrumentalization of religious practices for strictly political and counter-revolutionary purposes,

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which is something else. But religious activity as such is not only fully guaranteed, but is even stimulated by the revolutionary government of Nicaragua. The feast of San Silvestre Papa.

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Don't be late for the next feasts. Long live Santa Catalina! Long live! The majority of Nicaraguans maintain their traditional loyalty to the Pope and to his bishops,

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in spite of the political battle being fought within their church. If the hierarchy is determined to divorce the Christian faith from social transformations, then naturally there will be a contradiction between Christianity and the revolution. That is precisely the task of us Christians,

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that by maintaining the specificity of the state and the church, the social foundation that the Christians and the people of Nicaragua are, are not harmed. [Music]

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For the moment the traditions of the church continue to be observed as they have been for centuries. Celebrations like the festival of St. Catharina are as popular as ever and are indeed actively encouraged by the government. [ Music ] [Spanish]

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Nicaragua is taking part in an experiment which the rest of the world is watching. Whereas in Russia the church's activities are confined to its buildings, here it's won a unique position in the vanguard of a Marxist revolution. In which location does the gospel stand a better chance of retaining its integrity?

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In the next three weeks, every man will look at what's happening to the church in three countries, Poland, Cuba, and Ethiopia, who have had their own experience of revolution. (upbeat music)

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(upbeat music) [ Music ] (dramatic music) - Anatoly Sharansky, three days out of Soviet prison,

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appealed tonight for real detente between America and the Soviet Union. At his new home in Jerusalem, he said President Reagan could be the man

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to improve East-West relations. Moscow, in its first comment on Sharansky's release in Tuesday's spy swap, called him a renegade and a traitor.

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Israeli doctors say Sharansky's great mental and physical strength pulled him through the labor camps. At one stage, he weighed less than six stone. So far, Anatoly Sharansky had said little about his treatment in the labor camps and

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prisons where he spent the past eight years. This morning, though, Sharansky underwent tests at a hospital in Jerusalem. His doctors had little hesitation in spelling out the nature of his solitary confinement. Sharansky, they said, was held in a tiny room, four feet by six, with little light, no heating,

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no hot food. He was skin and bones, his condition deteriorated so much that he would feel extremely weak, he would feel his heart racing and pulsating very quickly and pain in the chest. Tonight Shurensky gave his first full press conference since his statements on arrival. A question on the minds of the hundreds of correspondents attending was put right away. Were you ever

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were tortured? Well, if you mean by the word torture, beating physical, no, I wasn't. But there is torture by punishing cell.

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That's torture by hunger and by cold. And in fact, it's real physical torture. Except in addition to this, there are a lot of ways of torturing morally

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by absolute isolation you from outer world. - Shorinsky was then asked to say a few words in Russian so that the Soviet people could hear him on Western radio. Somewhat reluctantly, he agreed.

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But he was quick to follow this up with an appeal to the West not to speak the language of hostility. (upbeat music)

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[ Music ] [ Music ] [MUSIC PLAYING] [ Music ]

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(singing in foreign language) [ Music ] [ Music ] (singing in foreign language)

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(singing in foreign language) [ Music ] [ Music ] Warsaw Cemetery, July the 31st, 1985.

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The anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising, a commemoration in the Polish Catholic tradition, a meeting of faith and nationalism. Victory Square, Warsaw. A state-organized ceremony also to honor the dead of the uprising. 40 years of state communism have done little to undermine the power of the Catholic Church to which 95% of all Poles now belong.

00:44:28.900 - 00:45:08.960

How has the church managed to survive? To what extent has the state succeeded in controlling and curbing its influence? [Polish] (guns firing)

00:45:08.960 - 00:45:40.960

[ Drum Beating ] [ Foreign Language ] [ Drum Beating ] I was raised in Christian faith.

00:45:40.960 - 00:46:00.960

Everything I do is dictated by faith. I don't want people to think I'm a fanatic. I'm not a fanatic. It's the 20th century, the age of reason and many areas of science.

00:46:01.960 - 00:46:35.360

But faith is fundamental and eternal. 25-year-old Wojciech left his job at the Lenin shipyards in Gdansk to become a painter. He just dreamed of me at night and told me to start painting him. That's the truth.

00:46:35.360 - 00:47:00.960

I started working at the Gdańsk shipyard in November 1981. It was a great time for the spontaneous restoration of our country and for the independent Solidarity Union. Then, to get used to a hard life during the war.

00:47:00.960 - 00:47:18.200

It's very hard to say, and you can't say it all. Many people, after the war, joined the Church to express their thoughts on the public forum.

00:47:18.200 - 00:47:28.320

Wojtek, listen, what are you painting, my child? I'm finishing the papyri. I have to do it. This year, as for the past three,

00:47:28.320 - 00:47:38.800

Wojciech will be making the 500-kilometer pilgrimage to the holiest shrine in Poland, that of the Black Madonna of Częstochowa. I'm a bit short of time.

00:47:38.800 - 00:47:47.280

Wait, we'll go and see. You have to pack, it's high time. Leave it, you'll finish it when you get there. OK, but there's still some time.

00:47:47.280 - 00:48:10.520

We don't have time, we have to pack. We are carrying the manifestation of our faith to the bright mountains, where we were always free, as John Paul II said, while he was in Poland. But above all, to experience a greater meeting with God,

00:48:10.520 - 00:48:35.520

through my sacrifice and my effort. (Bell ringing in the background) Maybe my closest friends and female friends, my girlfriend, for example, think very similarly to me, but I certainly know people

00:48:35.520 - 00:49:06.520

who have different views on what is happening in the church and our faith. I go to the pilgrimage because I want to meet people, I want to be with them,

00:49:06.520 - 00:49:27.520

in a community, I want to see if I can overcome her, if I can force her to do something. I want to go to Mary, I want to ask her for something, for my penance. I want to strengthen my prayers for her.

00:49:27.520 - 00:49:45.520

"The White-Green group!" The pilgrimages to the Black Madonna, an icon of Mary that's kept at the Jasnogora monastery in Czestochowa, have been going on for over 600 years.

00:49:45.520 - 00:49:58.520

Since the banning of Solidarity in 1981, there's been a dramatic increase in the numbers making the pilgrimage, particularly among the young. [singing in Polish]

00:49:58.520 - 00:50:20.460

Last year, eight million Poles made pilgrimages to the Black Madonna and for the most important pilgrimage of the year, in August, half a million converged on the Jasnogora Monastery. [speaking in Polish]

00:50:24.460 - 00:50:39.060

This year, the government, worried by the political implications of such a show of devotion, made a bargain with the church hierarchy. Pilgrimages could continue only so long as no political banners were carried. But would this compromise be accepted by the pilgrims?

00:50:39.060 - 00:50:51.980

(crowd chattering) and it may be interesting not only for theological reasons, but also for moral reasons. But we have to remember what the Gospel of John says

00:50:51.980 - 00:51:03.980

in chapter 18, verse 36. "My kingdom is not of this world." So treating the Church as a political party is a misunderstanding of the light of the Gospel,

00:51:03.980 - 00:51:35.860

which is obligatory for the Church. (singing in foreign language) The V for victory sign, the symbol of solidarity in church. (singing in foreign language)

00:51:35.860 - 00:52:02.860

[music] An ordinary Sunday service at St. Bridget's, the parish church of the Lenin shipyards in Gdansk. Father Henrik Jankowski is its priest and its most famous parishioner is Lech Wałęsa. [speaking in German]

00:52:02.860 - 00:52:28.260

At the height of Solidarity's success, Father Jankowski provided a bridge between the church and the Union. For the first time in the shipyard's history, a mass was celebrated inside the gates.

00:52:28.260 - 00:52:54.260

[MUSIC] My work hasn't changed, except that I can't go to the shipyard. But the contacts are still alive. Maybe even very well, because the workers have to come to me.

00:52:54.260 - 00:53:10.940

No, I have to go. (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) [Music]

00:53:10.940 - 00:53:53.940

[Music] [ Music ] In our reality, the law has become a tool of terror. The law cannot be respected and called the law of the name.

00:53:53.940 - 00:54:16.340

And this is very sad. I would like to thank you for your memory and at the same time remind you that it is time to work. And we are at the stage of formulating precise programs to be implemented. and that's why it's not time to talk, but to work.

00:54:16.340 - 00:54:45.340

I think you understand what's going on. There is no freedom without Solidarity! Solidarity is very strong, and it is immortal.

00:54:45.340 - 00:55:02.340

Of course, the forms of solidarity will change over time, but the ideals are immortal. In 1980, the workers of the Lenin shipyard

00:55:02.340 - 00:55:10.340

started to build a cross. With steel from the shipyards, they fashioned a monument intended to dominate the city

00:55:10.340 - 00:55:36.340

of the long history of the Polish struggle for independence. The anchor was the wartime symbol of the Polish resistance to the Nazis. A cross has become another place of pilgrimage. In mockery of the state, it towers defiantly over what's generally known to be

00:55:36.340 - 00:55:53.340

the headquarters of the Secret Police. [ Background Sounds ] Poland has been connected to the cross for centuries. Poland has survived thanks to faith.

00:55:53.340 - 00:56:15.340

Many times it happened that Poland was not on the map at all. And it was faith that allowed us to survive until the 20th century and faith, only faith, will allow us to survive a few more centuries. The Polish countryside has been fought over in almost every major European war.

00:56:15.340 - 00:56:37.340

The village of Grabów is typical in many ways of this tragic history. Father Kasprzyk is the priest. My Grabów parish is a very typical parish in Poland, which has always shared the fate of the nation.

00:56:37.340 - 00:56:53.340

It has experienced all the disasters, disasters, and misfortunes. Foreign troops always passed through this parish. The proximity to Warsaw caused that during all the wars, the parish was destroyed.

00:56:53.340 - 00:57:10.140

This is where the Lithuanian and Tatar armies used to come. This is where the war with the Swedes took place. This is the cemetery from the First World War, where 1,500 Hungarian, Austrian, Prussian and German soldiers were buried.

00:57:10.140 - 00:57:43.540

During the Second World War, the parish was completely destroyed. Only three houses remained of the parish. [ Background Sounds ] [ Foreign Language ]

00:57:43.540 - 00:58:19.540

[ Background Sounds ] The nation considers the Church to be the only refuge for its national identity. The entire ideology of atheism is perceived as foreign, imposed from the outside, which is in line with the entire tradition of the nation.

00:58:19.540 - 00:58:50.540

[ Background Sounds ] Other totalitarian systems, destroying nations, take away their national consciousness, take away their history.

00:58:50.540 - 00:59:05.060

They want to cut people off from their roots, from their past. (speaking in foreign language) For us, Poles, and for the Church,

00:59:05.060 - 00:59:37.060

it is the defense of national identity and the awareness of our history. That's why we, priests, have to complement the knowledge of history among the youth.

00:59:37.060 - 01:00:04.060

I have seen many shortcomings in my years of priesthood. I have always tried to complement them. There is a saying that a Pole becomes great when he is free from pain. That's how history has shaped us.

01:00:04.060 - 01:00:33.060

Mother of God, I thank you for helping me. You didn't let me die in this war. [speaking Polish] The Gdansk pilgrims on their fifth day have traveled 150 kilometers.

01:00:33.060 - 01:00:53.060

[speaking Polish] [speaking Polish] [singing in Polish] [speaking Polish]

01:00:53.060 - 01:01:36.560

[ Background noise ] If we are talking about the whole of social, cultural, and educational life, it would be difficult to find any offensive to atheism in Poland. The views you mentioned are the views of ordinary people who are not tolerant,

01:01:36.560 - 01:02:09.560

who believe that the right to express their views is only for those who believe in one religion, the Catholic religion. Atheists also have the right to spread their views. Without God, society is just a human being,

01:02:09.560 - 01:02:35.040

which can be compared to an animal. Because an animal is also thoughtless. A person who is not connected to God is a thoughtless person. 42 year old Jerzy Zabicki is an engineer at a state factory making bulldozers

01:02:35.040 - 01:02:51.320

he started going on the pilgrimages after martial law was introduced [MOTORCYCLE ENGINE] [SPEAKING POLISH] Three years ago I left the factory.

01:02:51.320 - 01:03:13.320

Now I go to three factories. Some of the managers support me. My manager is very happy that I go to this pilgrimage. But there are people who think that the pilgrimage is too much

01:03:13.320 - 01:03:32.320

and they even try to make it harder. Every year I feel that it draws me in, that I am needed there. That my person... Of course, this pilgrimage would go without me,

01:03:32.320 - 01:03:48.400

but it draws you in, like a wolf in the forest. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Jezio, his wife, Agnuszka, his daughter, and her fiancé are all devout Catholics.

01:03:48.400 - 01:04:09.200

Friday is their fast day, and they take only bread and water. Enjoy your meal. I've been waiting for this. Why the middle one?

01:04:09.200 - 01:04:21.200

Because it's fresh. I've had three years of marriage. I'll eat it all. Tell me if I've packed everything.

01:04:21.200 - 01:04:31.200

Like the shirt and the socks. I don't know. - The most important thing is that I have a shirt and socks. Without a shirt, I can't walk.

01:04:31.200 - 01:04:54.200

- You need to have a pair of socks to be able to walk. - The Church should act for justice and for more violence. The Church is not only there to deal with spiritual and religious matters, but just as Christ taught us,

01:04:54.200 - 01:05:07.200

just as he created the earth and said, "I create you and send you my disciples, "so that you may be defenders." And you should defend your homeland through the church.

01:05:07.200 - 01:05:19.200

Warsaw, the old town, meticulously rebuilt after World War II. 30,000 more pilgrims prepare to leave. From all over Poland, pilgrims are already on their way.

01:05:19.200 - 01:05:41.360

In two weeks' time, they will meet in Częstochowa. There are more believers now than in the 1950s, when the faith was 20% less. After the election of the Pope, the faith rose.

01:05:41.360 - 01:06:26.560

Young people, especially young people, returned to the Church. [ Music ] The Council of the Polish people on the election of the Pope was expressed in Poland by at least non-believers, Catholics.

01:06:26.560 - 01:06:55.560

Many times, in various official government statements, it was said about our great compatriot. which does not change the fact that the statements of the Pope concerning the general affairs or the Polish affairs do not always have to be in accordance with what the government thinks on a given issue.

01:07:02.560 - 01:07:27.440

The leading independent Catholic newspaper, Tegodnik Povcekny, is published in Krakow. The paper's been running for 40 years. In that time it's been closed down only twice, once under Stalin and again during martial law. It's continually being censored.

01:07:27.440 - 01:07:42.220

[ Background noise ] The deputy editor is Krzysztof Kozłowski. [ Background noise ] I think it's mainly a lack of trust.

01:07:42.220 - 01:07:57.220

A complete lack of trust in the authorities. And that's the main problem. The inability to reach an agreement because neither the state nor the society trusts it,

01:07:57.220 - 01:08:08.220

nor is the society afraid of it. And at the same time, the society doesn't trust its authority and is afraid of that authority. To you, censor.

01:08:08.220 - 01:08:30.220

Hello? Yes. Discussions on the relationship between the Church and the state should be in the newspaper. Because it is one of the main topics, problems in Poland. But in practice, such discussions are not conducted in Poland.

01:08:30.220 - 01:09:00.220

It is not conducted because they are not allowed by the censorship to print. Everything is censored, including papal texts, even though the Censorship Act turns off these church texts. The Polish Church is certainly dealing with many internal issues

01:09:00.220 - 01:09:18.220

that would require a discussion, a confrontation, a position. But here the question arises, whether it is possible, or is it necessary, in a situation in which the Church has been attacked by external factors,

01:09:18.220 - 01:09:38.220

by the authorities, to have a sharp discussion within the Church. "For the majority of Polish Catholics, it's more important to demonstrate the unity of the church than to analyze its problems."

01:09:38.220 - 01:10:18.720

[ Background Noise ] At the highest point, we will ask the Queen of Poland to protect our homeland. We will ask her to be free, independent and just.

01:10:18.720 - 01:10:40.720

This request is being made by pilgrims from all over Poland. We will ask her to help us overcome evil with good. Blessed be the life of your Jesus Holy Mary, Mother of God,

01:10:40.720 - 01:10:57.720

pray for us sinners For Polish Catholics today, evil is most apparent in certain actions of the government, such as the imprisoning of Bogdan Lis, one of Solidarity's leaders. Lis is a non-Catholic, a socialist, but his mother prays for him.

01:10:57.720 - 01:11:22.720

Blessed be the life of your Jesus I go to church and pray a lot, but mostly rosaries. Some ladies come to pray with me, to help me and to pray for me. Holy Mary, Mother of God

01:11:22.720 - 01:11:42.720

I'm so proud of my son, he's such a brave boy. He doesn't give up, above all. He tolerated everything, he was so gentle, he didn't get upset. He didn't worry, he said there would be no mercy

01:11:42.720 - 01:12:02.640

for them to be released or for them to be signed. God protect them. In Poland, religion and politics are never easy to separate. Polish hymns are saturated with nationalist themes.

01:12:02.640 - 01:12:20.880

For the Pole to sing to Mary, Mother of God, is to sing to the Queen of Poland, who has rallied the nation through its long history of struggle. As the Poles see it, the struggle continues, and the Church is in the front line. Fr. Mariam was a friend and supporter of Fr. Papiewuszko,

01:12:20.880 - 01:12:36.280

who was murdered by the state police in October 1984. How strong a threat do priests like Fr. Papiewuszko pose to the state? (speaking in foreign language)

01:12:36.280 - 01:12:52.280

although it is a small group, but very noisy, which, apart from the BBC, is very good for advertising, disproportionate to their real meaning.

01:12:52.280 - 01:13:03.280

But Father Papiwuszko has become the symbol for this year's pilgrimage. It was a pilgrimage for the homeland to get, as I repeated, the second question,

01:13:03.280 - 01:13:16.280

so that there would be no persecution of the homeland, so that there would be in this homeland everyone who wanted to have the right to speak. Because the Constitution clearly states that there is freedom of speech,

01:13:16.280 - 01:13:50.280

so that there would be no people imprisoned for persuasion. and especially the last two years have brought significant cooperation between the state administration and church officials in preparing the unambiguous course of these pilgrimages. Unambiguous politically, meaning that these are religious pilgrimages, as the Church calls them,

01:13:50.280 - 01:14:10.960

religiously penitent, and not political manifestations. (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) [ Music ]

01:14:10.960 - 01:14:32.140

(singing in foreign language) [MUSIC] (singing in foreign language) [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:14:32.140 - 01:15:11.980

[singing in Polish] (singing in foreign language) [ Music ] The pilgrims finally arrive at Częstochowa.

01:15:11.980 - 01:15:25.980

They cover the monastery walls with political posters carried from all parts of the country. The ban on making the pilgrimage political has been ignored. The party's decree has proved unenforceable.

01:15:25.980 - 01:15:59.200

(crowd chanting) (speaking in foreign language) (dramatic music) [CHANTING]

01:15:59.200 - 01:16:23.200

The end to the weeks of walking. A brief glimpse of the Black Madonna, who was actually crowned Queen of Poland 300 years ago and is still a symbol of the nation and its faith.

01:16:23.200 - 01:17:02.200

[singing in Polish] It was a sign that people were dedicated to this homeland, to survive in this homeland. [music] Jarocin, a five-day music festival organized by the Ministry of Culture.

01:17:02.200 - 01:17:14.200

It takes place at exactly the same time as the pilgrimage. Is it an attempt to lure the youth away from the Black Madonna? I don't organize people not to walk. It's up to them.

01:17:14.200 - 01:17:22.780

It's free. If someone wants to, they can come. It's not a relationship. (upbeat music)

01:17:22.780 - 01:18:18.620

♪ ♪ [music] No, I'm not interested in politics at all. It's a dark magic. Nobody's ever told me what I like about them.

01:18:18.620 - 01:18:48.620

"The camp is dying." "Thank you." "The martial law was enforced. It was always a bit different." Police, police, police station. Limitation of activity, police hours.

01:18:48.620 - 01:19:15.720

Of course, some changes. But you can get used to everything. (dramatic music) (shouting in foreign language)

01:19:23.040 - 01:20:02.820

climax of the pilgrims journey. Cardinal Glemp, Primate of Poland, celebrates Mass before half a million worshippers. It's one of the paradoxes of our time that the Catholic Church in Poland, under steady persecution from a communist state, is one of the most flourishing in the world.

01:20:02.820 - 01:20:23.060

It's uniquely well placed, providing as it does a focus as much for radicalism and dissent as for patriotism and reaction. And it's constantly invigorated by the opposition of the party, which has the power to crush all ideological opposition without any hope of replacing the Church in the hearts of the people.

01:20:23.060 - 01:21:02.500

(choral singing) (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) [ Music ]

01:21:02.500 - 01:21:27.300

[unclear] ...its union. It's reported that an increasing number of people, be they churchgoers or atheists, are taking seriously a passage of the Bible which directly suggests that the tragedy could have been an act of God. For the Soviet authorities, the crisis of Chernobyl can only be deepened by suspicions that the accident could have apocalyptic overtones.

01:21:27.300 - 01:21:49.100

But its people have nevertheless been turning to the Bible's book of revelations. It talks of a star called Wormwood, which heralded death and destruction. "And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp. And it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.

01:21:49.100 - 01:22:08.600

And the name of the star is called Wormwood. And the third part of the waters became Wormwood. And many men died at the waters, because they were made bitter." Chernobyl, a Ukrainian word, translates to Latin as Artemisia and to English as Wormwood.

01:22:08.600 - 01:22:35.100

Chernobyl, or Wormwood, once grew on the site where the power station now stands, hence its name. But the rumour now is that the biblical star of Chernobyl foretold the disaster there. The authorities have turned to the respected weekly Literatura Gazeta to try to put down the rumours. In an article, the Archbishop of Kiev blames Western theologians for trying to shake trust in Soviet policies.

01:22:35.100 - 01:22:55.100

He suggests revelations could be applied to several periods of history, and concludes that only God, not man, can foretell the end of the world. His response has been greeted with some skepticism. The effect of the Archbishop's response, I think, would be the opposite to what was intended.

01:22:55.100 - 01:23:14.620

Firstly, he's not a very popular figure. He's known in the Soviet Union generally as being the mouthpiece for the official policies on, for example, such matters as nuclear disarmament and so on. And secondly, there's a strange phenomenon in the Soviet Union.

01:23:14.620 - 01:23:30.100

I suppose in most closed societies, people tend to believe that an official statement is the opposite to the truth. So I think they've scored a known goal there. What effect would you say it's going to have?

01:23:30.100 - 01:23:47.100

I think it will certainly lead to an upsurge in churchgoing. That's for sure because there hasn't been a disaster on such a scope that so many people have known about. Former disasters like Kishtim in the 50s, they were all hushed up.

01:23:47.100 - 01:24:11.720

Whereas here you do have quite a lot of solid information but not total information. people will turn to the church. Why are the authorities so worried about it? I think they're worried because it is a dimension they can't control. This is one of the basic objections of the Soviet authorities to religion because it takes it out of the sphere that can be felt,

01:24:11.720 - 01:24:48.600

that can be controlled, and I think that is why they put it in the literary gazette. What we said earlier, we hoped we might have the communiqué from the Marlborough House Summit before the end of the programme. Good morning, and now the news in the South East. The police are appealing for help in catching the gang who stabbed and killed 19-year-old Terry Burns in central London.

01:24:48.600 - 01:25:09.600

Terry and a friend were attacked in Villiers Street by about a dozen youths who'd been drinking in the St. Martin's Tavern pub. The gang, believed to be Millwall football fans, knifed Terry's friend in the throat. Then Terry, a labourer from Maidstone, was chased 150 yards to the Embankment Underground Station. He was cornered and stabbed repeatedly.

01:25:09.600 - 01:25:38.720

Police at Cannon Row have issued this number, 01839 88888, and they want to hear from anyone who was in the pub or the Villiers Street area after 9.30 on Saturday night. Terry's friend, who comes from Birmingham, is stable in hospital. A 38-year-old woman is to appear before Marylebone magistrates this morning, charged with murdering a man who she claims had raped her. her. Stephen Koppen, who was 24, was found stabbed to death in a flat on the Mozart

01:25:38.720 - 01:26:02.480

estate in North Kensington. Scotland Yard is looking at complaints about alleged hooliganism by Metropolitan Police officers on a ferry from Folkestone to France. Staff on the Sea Link Hengist say they were threatened, a knife was thrown and curtains were set on fire during a day trip last month. The Complaints Investigations Department is making inquiries. And that's the

01:26:02.480 - 01:26:10.480

the local news from me for this morning. Now moving on to the travel news for the south-east, I've got some information for you about rail services. There was some engineering work which was taking place

01:26:10.480 - 01:26:17.760

over the weekend at Herne Hill and Brixton. That should have finished over the weekend, but I'm afraid it hasn't. And as a result of which, services from Kent

01:26:17.760 - 01:26:25.440

and south-east London into Victoria are being diverted via an alternative route. That means you get to see a section of rarely used track, but I'm afraid you're willing to incur delays

01:26:25.440 - 01:26:34.840

of up to about 20 minutes there. A couple of actual cancellations for you, 845 Dartford to Cannon Street, 855 Smitham to London Bridge and the 859 Sevenoaks to Cannon Street.

01:26:34.840 - 01:26:47.840

And I've got some information for you now about ferry services. And due to industrial action, none of Sealink's British-crewed ships are sailing, but the Dutch, Belgian and French-operated ships are running normally at the moment, as well, of course, as other ferry operators.

01:26:47.840 - 01:26:58.840

So it is best to check before setting out. And Sue will have the latest news, by the way, of that dispute in her summary at 8.30. And now let's move on to the weather for the south-east. Cloudy is going to break this morning and there'll be some warm, sunny spells today.

01:26:58.840 - 01:27:09.000

It should remain dry though. Temperatures 19 degrees Celsius, 66 degrees Fahrenheit, wind from the west at up to 15 miles an hour. And that's it. I'll be back tomorrow. Bye-bye.

01:27:09.000 - 01:27:26.200

Coming up, Jim Pryor, a Tory wet previews the party conference and veiled in mystery, will the experts solve the riddle of the Turin Shroud? It's 8.30 on Monday, the 6th of October.

01:27:26.200 - 01:27:37.480

Good morning to you if you've just woken up. you're watching Breakfast Time from the BBC. Let's have a look at the news headlines now with Sue Carpenter. Good morning. The Soviet nuclear submarine on which a fire killed three crew members

01:27:37.480 - 01:27:56.560

is being towed away from the United States by a Soviet merchant ship. It's heading northeast towards Europe. American Defence Secretary Caspar Weinberger said the vessel suffered a very great explosion which caused a lot of damage. He assumed there would have to be more than the three deaths reported by the Russians. The incident happened on Friday,

01:27:56.560 - 01:28:13.740

600 miles northeast of Bermuda and it's thought the fire burned for two days. First television pictures showed major damage around the missile hatch. The submarine, one of a number which patrol America's eastern seaboard, apparently made two attempts to move under its own power before going under tow. It can

01:28:13.740 - 01:28:32.780

carry 16 nuclear missiles but the Americans say there's no evidence of radioactive contamination. Soviet dissident Yuri Orlov, who arrived in America last night says he'll carry on fighting for human rights in his homeland. He spent nearly 10 years in a labor camp and internal exile and was allowed to

01:28:32.780 - 01:28:52.820

leave as part of the process that freed American reporter Nicholas Danilov. Talks on the Sealink ferry dispute resumed today after no progress yesterday. Crews are still occupying four ferries. The dispute is over Sealink's merger of its Channel Island services with another company losing 500 jobs.

01:28:52.820 - 01:29:07.420

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Runcie, says he's dismayed at reports that a woman priest has celebrated Holy Communion at Church House in London. He wants a full explanation. The Reverend Joyce Bennett was ordained in Hong Kong, but Church law forbids women celebrating

01:29:07.420 - 01:29:21.380

communion in this country. Finally, Nancy Reagan took a tumble at the White House while her husband was making a speech in honour of pianist Vladimir Horowitz. It seems she moved her chair too near the edge of the stage and toppled three feet into

01:29:21.380 - 01:29:41.140

flower box. To the relief of the audience Mrs. Reagan insisted she was unhurt and resumed her seat next to the pianist. The president assured that his wife had recovered then had a joke at her expense. Honey I told you to do it only if I didn't get any applause in.

01:29:41.140 - 01:29:55.820

Thank you Sue. Well on the eve of the Conservative Party Conference one of the the last remaining warts in Mrs. Thatcher's cabinet, has published his political memoirs. The book, "A Balance of Power" by James Pryor,

01:29:55.820 - 01:30:02.920

is often critical of the Prime Minister and warns of the dangers of extremism in British political life. It'll certainly be a major talking point

01:30:02.920 - 01:30:15.080

at the conference, which starts tomorrow. James Cox spoke to Mr. Pryor at his Hampshire retreat. - Mr. Pryor portrays himself as a modest and unambitious man who came into politics

01:30:15.080 - 01:30:30.760

and to power almost by accident. His view of conservatism is close to that of Ted Heath, whom he served as Parliamentary Private Secretary in the 60s. And Heath brought the Suffolk farmer into the Cabinet as Minister of Agriculture in 1970.

01:30:30.760 - 01:30:46.120

He was never sympathetic to Mrs Thatcher or her team of economic monetarists, whom he scorns as academic theorists out of touch with the real world. But prior was too valuable to be dropped, and the new Prime Minister made him her Employment Secretary.

01:30:46.120 - 01:31:01.320

and then as the tensions personal and political between the two of them increased she switched him to Northern Ireland in 1981. Earlier this year he announced he was leaving politics and as a final legacy has written a memoir which might also be regarded as

01:31:01.320 - 01:31:16.040

the Wets Manifesto, an appeal for a return to traditional conservative values. As he surveyed the rolling acres which have formed a permanent backdrop to his political life I asked him if this might not be seen as an act of treachery.

01:31:16.040 - 01:31:32.840

No, I don't think so. I think if you read the book you can't possibly say it's an act of treachery. And I thought very carefully about this and I think if you're going to write a book like that it's going to hold much more interest if you write it fairly soon after the events that you are portraying and if you want to have any influence on those events.

01:31:32.840 - 01:31:50.520

And I want my book, which I think is a fairly balanced book, to be regarded as a book of the style which I would like to see a modern Conservative Party adopting. Could you, had you got your act together in the early stages, have done more to restrain Mrs Thatcher and her more extreme monetarists in the Treasury team?

01:31:50.520 - 01:32:10.360

Obviously not. You say get our act together. The Conservative Party never does get its act together in that it doesn't have a cabal or anything like that. It would have been quite, well it would have been amazing if the Conservative in Cabinet had had this sort of cabal spirit. And so I don't think that Conservative cabinets

01:32:10.360 - 01:32:26.400

ever operate in that particular way. I personally think it was a mistake that we went in so much for, as it were, dogmatic policy in the early days of Mrs. Thatcher's prime ministership. And that's another reason for stating these things now.

01:32:26.400 - 01:32:40.760

Is it not the case, though, that you became much more increasingly isolated as time went by and as those with whom you agreed, like Sir Ian Gilmour and Norman Stevens were picked off one by one? Well of course there was an element there and I mean you've got to hand it to Mrs Thatcher

01:32:40.760 - 01:32:59.000

for picking people off in that way. She managed to pick people off without it appearing to be as it were a bloodbath such as Harry Macmillan indulged in in 1962. So from that point of view she was she was very successful. Well isn't this in fact a record of failure in that you and those who

01:32:59.000 - 01:33:27.140

thought like you never understood or recognized the phenomenon of Thatcherism? No, I think it's more a failure, if one likes to put it that way, of the understanding of the power of the Prime Minister's office and how difficult it is for people who have perhaps a dissenting voice within Cabinet, albeit a fairly powerful voice but a dissenting voice, to get their policies through against a determined and strong Prime Minister.

01:33:27.140 - 01:33:43.940

And that, I think, is one of the interesting things of the book. And that's something why, another reason why I think it's right that the book should come out at this time. So you're really saying this is a warning against the overweening power of prime ministers? It's a warning against the overweening power of prime ministers of any political party,

01:33:43.940 - 01:34:03.940

and the overweening belief that there is some doctrine which can solve Britain's economic and social problems, whether they be of the, whether the doctrine be of the left, socialism, or whether it be of the right, extreme conservatism. That, I don't think, will ever solve the problem. Jim Pryor.

01:34:03.940 - 01:34:11.940

Well, with me is our guest today, Eric Burden, lead singer of the great '60s band The Animals. His autobiography, which is just published, tells us what it's like rubbing shoulders

01:34:11.940 - 01:34:19.940

with legendary figures such as Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison. It must have been a great experience for a young, thrusting, upcoming musician

01:34:19.940 - 01:34:34.020

to mix with the all-time greats. Did any of them make a particular impression on you? Yeah, they all made an impression on me impression on me, for different reasons. Jimmy because he was able to keep up his pop persona

01:34:34.020 - 01:34:59.380

in private life. Jim Morrison because he couldn't hold it together anyway. Janis because she was a tragic, tragic character. But the people that impressed me the most were the blues people that I originally went to America to find, you know, and who've become friends of mine, since, personal friends of mine, people like Jimmy Witherspoon.

01:34:59.380 - 01:35:21.540

It's a tragic comment on that particular pop era, how few of them have lived to make old bones. Yeah, it was the fast lane, and a lot of people dropped off by the wayside. How did, I mean, how have you managed it? I mean, you're here, you're in one piece, you're perfectly healthy, how did you manage to resist perhaps the same temptation which

01:35:21.540 - 01:35:33.580

killed others? Well, you know, keep your feet firmly on the ground in the paint of reality now and again, you know. Well, you say keep your feet firmly on the ground, I mean you were a very, very big star,

01:35:33.580 - 01:35:52.740

particularly when House of the Rising Sun was at the top of the pops, as it was called then. How did it feel when it first happened to you? When did you realise you'd really made it after all that trying? We were at a show somewhere in the West Country near the Welsh border, a small gig, and we

01:35:52.740 - 01:36:13.660

walked in backstage and suddenly it was like the smiles on everybody's faces and the whole room had been lit up by magical candles from somewhere. Heavens had opened up. Nobody said anything but we just knew. We knew that the record, that record, House Rises, had become the number one.

01:36:13.660 - 01:36:28.660

Why did the Animals last such a short period of time comparatively? Well, that whole period of time was short spurts of energy. I mean, how long did the Beatles stay together as a performing band? For what they produced, a very short length of time.

01:36:28.660 - 01:36:45.940

Credit where credit's due to the Stones. The Stones were the one band that fought together, played together, and stayed together and made a monstrous business out of it. They made an awful lot of money, but it has to be said at the end of the day, I mean,

01:36:45.940 - 01:37:03.420

the animals did not make their fortunes really, did they? No, I think we were unfortunate in the fact that we were stuck in between the period, the early period of where the business was just picking up and getting monstrous in terms of the huge overtones of money.

01:37:03.420 - 01:37:21.760

We did make a lot of money, but it didn't reach our hands in terms of our game. Debbie and I were comparing notes earlier and we came firmly to the conclusion that your greatest legacy to music is the fact that the only, the first song which everybody plays when they've got a guitar or a piano is House of the Rising Sun. Those four chords

01:37:21.760 - 01:37:38.540

and a nice straightforward melody line. Did you play it as a small kid or you sang along? No, but I've suffered from people who've tried to play it to me. Well let's put you through a little bit more suffering now with a look back at House of Rising Sun, a great little song. Here you go.

01:37:38.540 - 01:37:51.260

There is a house in New Orleans. They call it... We must make people suffer. There is a house in New Orleans.

01:37:51.260 - 01:38:22.940

They call it the Rising Sun. And it's been the ruling of many a war. ♪ And God, I know I'm one ♪ ♪ My father was a tailor ♪

01:38:22.940 - 01:38:45.420

♪ He sewed my new blue jeans ♪ ♪ My brother's a gambling man ♪ ♪ Down in New Orleans ♪ - Wonderful stuff.

01:38:45.420 - 01:38:52.700

I would say, what a terrifically sophisticated video that was for the day. - Yeah, 35 mil. - Shot at some gruesome time of the morning, was it?

01:38:52.700 - 01:38:58.420

- Yeah, about nine o'clock in the morning in a small studio in Soho. Not unlike this. - Well, it didn't look like it.

01:38:58.420 - 01:39:06.580

It didn't look like it at all. Thanks very much indeed. Stay there, have another glass of orange juice and a cup of coffee. We'll talk later. Oldies but goodies, and now it's time to turn to the morning papers,

01:39:06.580 - 01:39:26.580

and many of the papers turn their attention to the Conservative Party conference which opens in Bournemouth tomorrow. The Times reports that the Minister for Housing, John Patton, in a speech to the Assembly tomorrow, will announce the party's plan to create one million more homeowners, while the Financial Times looks ahead to the publication of figures which show an upturn in Britain's growth rate.

01:39:26.580 - 01:39:33.460

many of the tabloids including today's national and has closely monitored the case of Yuri Orlov. Good morning to you, Reverend. - Good morning.

01:39:33.460 - 01:39:42.580

- Were you surprised that Orlov was linked in the Danilov deal? - I wasn't surprised because there's a tradition of this going back 10 years or more,

01:39:42.580 - 01:39:53.540

that prominent human rights dissidents in the Soviet Union are exchanged for people under accusation of spying, even if they're not spies, as in this case. - Well, the first story you've picked is in the Times today

01:39:53.540 - 01:40:17.000

and indeed it refers to Orlov. Amazingly, we just tend to think of people wanting to get out of Russia, just wanting to get out and that's the end of it, but it's not, is it? No, well I know a lot of people in the Soviet Union who do want to get out, some Christians and of course a lot of Jews, but there are also many who want to stay behind and it is an awful shame that actually in this case they've picked somebody who clearly doesn't want to go,

01:40:17.000 - 01:40:35.500

or at least his wife doesn't, and it strikes me this is trading in human lives, I don't like the principles behind it one tiny bit. How do people like this, how do dissidents who've been kept under terrible conditions in camps, how do they adapt to a new way of life? When they reach the West, it's always very difficult for them.

01:40:35.500 - 01:40:52.500

I mean, there might be some exceptions. I met Anatoliy Shcheransky a couple of weeks ago, and he is obviously reveling in his life in the West, but many people find it very, very difficult. Russians seem to find creating a new life for themselves in a new society particularly difficult.

01:40:52.500 - 01:41:13.300

We'll move on now to The Guardian, which you picked out a story with a musical note, Plan Booth Rattle's Orchestra. Yes, I'm very interested in this story. It's about the idea of creating a super orchestra in the Midlands, probably under the conductorship of Simon Rattle. Well, Simon Rattle is a magnificent

01:41:13.300 - 01:41:33.060

conductor, and the idea of regionalising British music is already well underway, of course, of Welsh National Opera doing absolutely great things at Covent Garden in the last few days with the Ring Cycle. But the more music is centred out of London, the better. There's too much music in London and not enough in the provinces. And if you go to Germany, you'll

01:41:33.060 - 01:41:45.460

find that there's tremendous music in every single provincial town, not in Britain. I think it's great that these plans are afoot. Well, I hope they have more luck with it in Birmingham than they did with the motor racing. Well, already the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra is a very fine orchestra, thanks to Rathbone.

01:41:45.460 - 01:42:04.460

got a good basis there. And then you turn to tennis. You're a referent with a lot of interests obviously, music, now tennis. Well I'm a Wimbledon umpire among other things, I'm always interested in tennis stories. Could you get me tickets for next year's final? Yes but you mustn't ask on the screen, otherwise everybody else will be asking. I'll ask you

01:42:04.460 - 01:42:25.100

later then. Tennis out of season as it now is doesn't get much of a look in in the British papers. The Guardian, the Daily Telegraph always does well in its tennis stories and John Parsons is a marvellous tennis writer. There have been two great tennis events, in fact they're both part of the same thing, the semi-finals of the Davis Cup, a great

01:42:25.100 - 01:42:49.160

game between Czechoslovakia and Sweden, which Sweden just won in Prague. But I'm even more interested in the as yet uncompleted game between Australia and the United States in Brisbane and there's been the most magnificent game obviously between them between for Australia Cash and Fitzgerald and for the United

01:42:49.160 - 01:43:06.960

States Flack and Anaco not a regular pair they're normally they don't play together but there was an injury and it was a five set match and it went to the last two sets were 13 11 9 7 now we don't get that at Wimbledon anymore because we have tie breaks, you see.

01:43:06.960 - 01:43:17.960

And I think it's marvellous that one competition still has the full... To the bitter end. Have you ever had any sticky moments being an umpire at Wimbledon? Oh, I've had many sticky moments, but on the screen I'm not allowed to talk about them.

01:43:17.960 - 01:43:28.960

You cannot, as an umpire, you're not allowed to talk about them in visual tech. It's a bit like the magic circle as it being an umpire at Wimbledon. Yes, it is indeed. Well, your final story then, you've had an interest in music, in tennis, and now breastfeeding.

01:43:28.960 - 01:43:46.320

I'm amazed by this. That's not my interest, it's my wife's really, because we've just had a baby, a three-month-old baby, and there's a story that somebody's been criticised in the newspapers for its left-wing councillor, Fran Smith, caused a storm when she decided to breastfeed her baby

01:43:46.320 - 01:43:55.560

in the middle of a public meeting. So I think really my wife should be talking about this rather than me. What do you think about it? I don't think breastfeeding should be done in public.

01:43:55.560 - 01:44:03.960

Why not? I think it's embarrassing to other people. In a society where breastfeeding is done in public, in Africa where I've been, for example,

01:44:03.960 - 01:44:09.420

it's absolutely acceptable to me and everybody else. But where it causes embarrassment to other people, I don't think it's right. - But if people did it,

01:44:09.420 - 01:44:17.840

the embarrassment would wear off, wouldn't it? - Well, it's very difficult for the-- - It is a difficult subject. Very briefly, why haven't you got a dog collar on?

01:44:17.840 - 01:44:24.320

- Well, I don't usually wear one. I do if I'm preaching a sermon in church, but I've got an academic job. I work for Keston College, by the way,

01:44:24.320 - 01:44:28.840

not Amnesty International, as your pastor said. You have links though? Yes. And the...

01:44:28.840 - 01:44:37.040

When I'm doing an academic job, I feel that I don't really need to have a dog collar on. If the tie fits, wear it. Thank you for joining us this morning. Guy?

01:44:37.040 - 01:44:47.960

Thanks very much indeed. Well, let's turn to another story in today's newspapers. The unemployed of Jarrow are on the march again, exactly half a century after the Jarrow crusade for jobs.

01:44:47.960 - 01:45:04.040

Last week, after four years in a Soviet labour camp, says she intends to stay in the West. She talked to journalists before she and her husband, another dissident, who campaigned for human rights, met Mrs. Thatcher at Downing Street. The Prime Minister told Irina that she'd read some of her poetry over the weekend and had

01:45:04.040 - 01:45:16.640

been deeply moved by it. Irina, who is 32, came to Britain for medical treatment. Liz Donnelly has been to talk to her. I really felt myself absolutely free now.

01:45:16.640 - 01:45:37.680

It's a wonderful feeling because all my life before I had never felt something like that. Irina Ratishinskaya conducting her first press conference in the West, indeed her first press conference anywhere. With her physicist husband Igor Geraschenko by her side, she was quick to thank those

01:45:37.680 - 01:45:55.560

who'd campaigned for her release. I understand if all of you wouldn't help us, I wouldn't be here now. Thank you very, very much. Sitting on the floor at the corner of the table was the Reverend Richard Rogers, who'd

01:45:55.560 - 01:46:10.440

taken a personal lead in the campaign to get Irina freed. He'd spent the whole of Lent in a cage in Birmingham, simulating the prison conditions Irina was then enduring. At this morning's press conference, he read out the first medical bulletin on her health.

01:46:10.440 - 01:46:29.840

First of all, she's very emaciated. She has put on 44 pounds in weight in the last three months, and yet her muscles are still very thin and she needs long periods of rest in between any appointments. She was reported in the camp to have severe pains in her kidneys,

01:46:29.840 - 01:46:54.020

terribly high blood pressure, chest pains and periods of blackouts. Luckily her blood pressure is now normal and there appears to be no sign of permanent damage to her lungs, liver, heart or kidneys. But we await the results of further tests. When Irina arrived in Britain on Thursday night, she was obviously tired, frail and

01:46:54.020 - 01:47:11.300

prone to coughing fits. But she was infinitely healthier than she had been on her release. There's now also an extraordinary change in her circumstances. From labour camp a few months ago to number 10 Downing Street this morning. It's the first tree I see after four years.

01:47:11.300 - 01:47:22.460

The first tree? Yeah. Irina's poetry started reaching the West in the late 70s. So far, two collections have been published, the most recent in the summer, No, I'm Not

01:47:22.460 - 01:47:42.100

Afraid. I was in prison only for my rhymes because all our other struggle for human rights, it It was a common struggle with my husband and me. So he was not arrested, but I was.

01:47:42.100 - 01:47:57.100

And only difference between us, it was more rhymes. Irina spent much of her time in a labor camp east of Moscow, so I asked her about conditions there. First of all, it was very cold there,

01:47:57.100 - 01:48:17.100

and we were not allowed to have warm clothes. Any warm clothes were not allowed for us. They gave us very poor meals and not every day. And when a person is hungry,

01:48:17.100 - 01:48:34.140

it feels cold very much. And it was very dirty there. we were not allowed to wash ourselves as we need. - How did you manage to write in prison?

01:48:34.140 - 01:48:51.620

- I tried to compose them in my imagination when I have not a sheet of paper and pen. And when I had sheet of paper and pen, I composed on this sheet of paper

01:48:51.620 - 01:49:10.620

and then remembered and then have burned up these sheets because our militarists were looking for all my rhymes and I had to hide them or burn. - Have you remembered them all?

01:49:10.620 - 01:49:26.700

- Yeah, I remember all my rhymes now. - Did you write a lot in your imagination in prison? something like 150 rhymes. None of these, of course, have been published in her own country,

01:49:26.700 - 01:49:50.900

but she hopes this will change. I think now it's impossible, but maybe in some years it would be so. When they arrested me, I learned that my poems were in Odessa, in Kiev, in Moscow, in Leningrad, in Obninsk, and in other towns.

01:49:50.900 - 01:50:12.400

And I learned that something of them are put into music, and students and young people sings their songs on my rhymes. Why do you think the Soviet government has really released you? I think because of Reykjavik only.

01:50:12.400 - 01:50:40.400

Can you explain? They wanted to show West people can trust them and there was not any way to show it besides (speaking in foreign language)

01:50:40.400 - 01:50:51.680

besides to play of democracy. - Before she starts her convalescence and a new life in the West, Irina agreed to read a poem she'd written in prison.

01:50:51.680 - 01:51:06.280

(speaking in foreign language) - The cockerel will weep freedom for me, and here, knee-deep in mire, my gardens shed their water, when the northern air blows in draughts.

01:51:06.280 - 01:51:17.920

And how am I to carry to an alien planet what are almost tears as though towards home? It isn't true. I am afraid, my darling.

01:51:17.920 - 01:51:29.480

But make it look as though you haven't noticed. - And it's been confirmed that Mrs. Thatcher will visit Moscow for three days. - And all around were little stalls

01:51:29.480 - 01:51:45.840

where you could buy sweets and lemonade. Also, there are sentanker chiefs and dainty articles. There are a lot of people about, but nobody very notable. [music]

01:51:45.840 - 01:51:53.840

[music] [music] [music] [music]

01:51:53.840 - 01:52:29.480

[music] [music] [music] George, I'm seeing life with a vengeance.

01:52:29.480 - 01:53:15.480

[crowd noise] [Music] [Music] [music]

01:53:15.480 - 01:53:34.520

do you want anything? well I'm seeking the Earl of Clincham. are you by any chance him? no not exactly.

01:53:34.520 - 01:54:10.480

my name happens to be Edward Procurio. I'm half Italian and I am the groom to the Chambers. What chambers? Follow me. Yeah after 11 holes against Hubert Green and Fuzzy Zeller. Severiano Ballesteros, Manuel Pinero,

01:54:10.480 - 01:54:28.000

Four down to Marco Mira and Lanny Watkins after nine holes and Bernhard Lange and Sandy Lyle. One down to Craig Stadler and Curtis Strange after eight. Well it's that final match we're going to join first. Here's Sandy Lyle playing his second shot to the ninth.

01:54:28.000 - 01:54:57.580

Now he's gone up to a four iron and ducked and judged it beautifully. Tom Kite at the twelfth. Howard Clark's on the green and two up. And a beautiful shot.

01:54:57.580 - 01:55:17.580

Two lovely shots. That ball at the back is Howard Clark's and a super shot from Tom Kite. Sandy Lyle with a putt Sandy Lyle with a putt for a birdie three. Now the lovely birdie.

01:55:17.580 - 01:55:44.580

And there you see the match is all square. No. Yes. It just toppled in. I thought it was going to catch the edge of very good two. Tom Kite. Back to one. The second match on the twelfth tee.

01:55:44.580 - 01:55:59.580

Wayne Woosnam versus Green and Zeller. You're three up. on the twelfth tee. Wayne Woosnam versus Green and Zeller. You're three up.

01:55:59.580 - 01:56:37.580

That's a very fine shot from Zeller. The tenth. How about that for a response? Anything you can do, I can do better.

01:56:37.580 - 01:56:57.580

Leonard Langer from the top of the bank. Had this shot yesterday. Twelve green. Green's had a look, given his advice, but it's really down to

01:56:57.580 - 01:57:14.580

Zeller now. This for a two. A minute or two ago, you'd have thought that with his ball there and he had to drive that it was going to be odds on

01:57:14.580 - 01:57:39.580

a US victory of this hole. This for a half a langer. At the thirteenth, United States team in the form of Tom Kite and Andy North

01:57:39.580 - 01:57:57.580

the Europeans are one up. Just watch how North gets way down the handle. This is for a birdie three. It would square the match.

01:57:57.580 - 01:58:17.600

Yes, sir. Good strike. And Kike very pleased. The match all square. All square. Ousmane Mouais. This to go back to four up.

01:58:17.600 - 01:58:27.600

This could really be the turning point in this match because it was looking as it might be slipping away from them. He's got four up again with six holes left to play.

01:58:27.600 - 01:59:04.600

That gets up. Yes, it's a fine shot. It's a fine shot. This is Howard Clark at the fifteenth. And the match all square. Torrance against Kite North.

01:59:04.600 - 01:59:28.600

Will he cling on to the top of the step? No. A birdie putt. This to win the hole at the twelfth. Oh, that's it. So the bottom match. The US go one up.

01:59:28.600 - 01:59:58.600

Clark set his putt much more to the right. The Englishman makes another birdie. And we have a Highland jig on the green. And Kite with a very difficult putt. He still has to come up that slope

01:59:58.600 - 02:00:13.360

and therefore allow for whatever swing it will create on the ball. Nice strike. Low side unfortunately for Kite. So Europe 1-0. (birds chirping)

02:00:13.360 - 02:00:33.580

- Don't you realize that if this thing goes down in here on the yard, or whenever it goes down, you could, you could end up dead behind these walls. - Yeah, I'd hate that, but I ain't ducking anything.

02:00:33.580 - 02:00:45.740

I mean, even the streets couldn't get me. Say, how's-- how's old Fillmore Street? Oh. How's it look now?

02:00:45.740 - 02:00:56.900

Well, it's run down poor, the same as usual, the same as it looked when you and my dad grew up. As a matter of fact, it looked the same now as when I grew up. Yeah, so I've heard.

02:00:56.900 - 02:01:09.920

Six one way, half a dozen another, I guess. Anything else, Thurman? Well, I-- (gentle music)

02:01:09.920 - 02:01:30.640

- I guess that's about it, Big William. - Keep your hands up. - Keep your hands up. - Half day today, Williams?

02:01:30.640 - 02:01:35.840

- Practically over. Deliver the food, watch a little basketball before the black show goes on.

02:01:35.840 - 02:01:45.080

Does everybody go to that? Well, it's not required. They got a pretty good Indian band, though. A couple guys sing, tell a few jokes.

02:01:45.080 - 02:01:53.640

Professional caliber, too. Well, I look forward to it, then. You know where you're working? Not so far.

02:01:53.640 - 02:02:01.280

Why? Well, just to get a better view of what's going on in some places than others, that's all. I'm sure I'll get to see some of it anyway.

02:02:01.280 - 02:02:08.600

Yeah, sure. Officer Watson. Yeah. Forget it.

02:02:08.600 - 02:02:15.200

Enjoy the show. You worried about something, Williams? Me? No, not a thing.

02:02:15.200 - 02:02:32.340

Thanks for the escort. (door opens) (door closes) (door opens)

02:02:32.340 - 02:02:52.080

(door closes) ♪ (ominous music) (audience cheers) (audience applauds) (crowd cheering)

02:02:52.080 - 02:03:03.020

(crowd cheering) (whistle blows) (crowd chanting) (crowd chanting)

02:03:03.020 - 02:03:34.140

(crowd chanting) (upbeat music) ♪ Can you feel it, word, yeah ♪ ♪ Can you feel the day, day, day ♪

02:03:34.140 - 02:03:45.060

♪ Smoking my soul ♪ ♪ Way down in my bones ♪ ♪ Yeah, down in my bones ♪ ♪ Soul in my bones ♪

02:03:45.060 - 02:03:59.160

♪ Soul in my bones ♪ ♪ Soul in my bones ♪ - Dennis, have you heard that we're gonna move the closed custody camp to two because of the show today?

02:03:59.160 - 02:04:19.800

[MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC] ♪ Storm, storm ♪ ♪ Storm, storm ♪

02:04:19.800 - 02:04:48.860

♪ Storm, storm ♪ (audience applauding) All of this goes back over 100 years ago. Along the way, there was a war, a civil war,

02:04:48.860 - 02:05:02.300

a strange and bloody one taking more years and more lives. How long are you going to keep hassling me, man? It's not up to us, Villegas. They're still keeping Gloria in the Marine

02:05:02.300 - 02:05:07.620

Contagion, why is that? Why can't she make bail? Because you lied to us, Richard. You told us she had never been in jail,

02:05:07.620 - 02:05:17.180

I've never even gotten into any trouble. There were some things when she was a kid, a few years ago. Hey, man, look, we are talking about possession of narcotics and suspicion of armed robbery.

02:05:17.180 - 02:05:31.460

She was only in the car when something happened. I mean, don't you guys know that she's sick? There's a child coming? How long are you going to keep her in jail?

02:05:31.460 - 02:05:39.820

She's not in jail right now, Richard. Apparently, she's had some problems. What kind of problem? Hemorrhaging.

02:05:39.820 - 02:05:52.580

She's been transferred to the county general hospital ward under guard. She's going to lose the baby. She's going to die without those people.

02:05:52.580 - 02:06:01.740

She needs to be with her own people down in LA. Where's the riot going down, Boykins? I don't know anything about any riot. You see, you're lying again, Richard.

02:06:01.740 - 02:06:09.980

Look, we've talked to the TA handling this case. You tell us the truth, she can make bail. Be out in 24 hours. I told you, I don't know anything about any riot.

02:06:09.980 - 02:06:21.940

It's the Blacks' turn. We are waiting. Then what's the reason Alonzo Sanchez went off the cocktail the other night?

02:06:21.940 - 02:06:35.380

Congress had acted after all. [CHEERING] What the Congress had said was that the Dred Scott decision wasn't Dred anymore, but was dead.

02:06:35.380 - 02:06:52.380

[applause] That those who had been slaves were no longer slaves but free. [applause] That freedom was passed on from ex-slaves to the sons and daughters of ex-slaves.

02:06:52.380 - 02:07:18.380

[static] [ Silence ]