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Kentucky Jersey. >> Steven Spielberg has a horse running. >> Who? >> Steven Spielberg.

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>> Oh. [LAUGH] >> It's part of a horse. I don't know how you have part of.

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Okay, I am rolling. >> Okay, I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. This is our 100th WASP to interview. >> Take a bow, Tex.

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>> Today we are interviewing Tex Meacham. She was a WASP class 43-7. We are in her apartment in a condo in Pompano Beach, Florida. Today is the 3rd of May, 2003.

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The videographer is Nancy Parrish. Okay, Tex, welcome to the 100th interview. Let's start off, if you would please tell us your full name and when and where you were born.

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>> My name is Tex Amanda Brown Meacham. I was born in Tallahassee, Florida on the 4th of February, 1918. And I was named after both of my grandmothers. One was named Tex Anna and the other was Amanda.

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But my parents got to thinking and decided that Tex Anna Amanda Brown was a little heavy. And since my grandmother Tex Anna was called Tex, that was my mother's mother. She didn't think it was queer to name a girl Tex, so I ended up being Tex Amanda.

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>> Okay, tell me about your mom. What was your mom like? >> My mom was the most enthusiastic person. Her name was Josephine, and my in-laws called her Jo-Go.

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My mother, you never invited my mother to go somewhere unless you really wanted her to go, because she always said yes. One time I said to mother, mother, you've been there ten times. Why do you want to go again?

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She said, but honey, I haven't been there on this day with these people. [LAUGH] So that was, she was just full of that vigor. But I was born to my parents after they had been married for ten years. I thought it was on purpose because my father was one of 12 and

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my mother was one of 11. And they never had any privacy in their whole lives. I mean, really, what can you do, being born in a farm family, that many youngins around all the time?

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So after I got old enough to know about these things, I asked my mother one time. I says, mother, were you surprised and sorry when I came along? She says, no, honey, we wanted children, and we had an awful lot of fun trying. [LAUGH] That's the kind of sense of humor my mother had.

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And when I was born, I was the most beautiful baby, the most wonderful thing in the whole wide world. My father, when I was two weeks old, while my mother was still in bed, that was in the days when they stayed in bed for three weeks,

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did something that men just didn't do. He took that carriage and he drove me down College Avenue in Tallahassee. And mother said, I think he knocked on every door on each side of the street, showing you off.

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So I came into the world greatly, greatly loved. And I think that makes all the difference in someone's life. And then I was also, according to them, very, very smart. And that's the way they made me feel, that I was smart and could do anything.

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And then I was beautiful. And I wasn't, but I thought I was, because that's the way I was brought up. >> Were you born at home? >> Yes, right across from the- >> With a midwife or a doctor?

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>> A doctor. And when I was nine months old, my parents moved to Winter Garden. But when I went back to Florida State College for Women, the doctor that was in charge of the infirmary was the doctor that had

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delivered me, which was kind of fun. Because he remembered my parents had lived ten years in Tallahassee, so they knew lots of the people there. >> Okay, tell me about your dad.

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What was your dad doing when you- >> My father was a fertilizer salesman. He went around to groves and told people what they needed and so on. When he was younger, he'd been a shoe salesman. And the reason I'm mentioning that is, he died of a heart attack when I was 16.

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And until I was 16, when I wanted a pair of shoes, he went with me. I could pick out the style I wanted, but he made sure that those shoes fit my feet. Because that one year when he had worked as a shoe salesman, he had seen women with so many deformed feet that he did not want that to happen

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to me, so my shoes fit. And today, my toes are straight, and I make sure that my shoes fit, even though Daddy isn't there to make me. >> Right.

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When you were born, where was your family living? Were you in town, or were you in the country? >> We were in Tallahassee. They were in Tallahassee, but they were renting.

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Because one of the things, my father would never have a debt. They rented for, let's see, it would have been 14 years, until they had enough money to pay cash for the house. Because when the first four years I was alive, they were living in rented places.

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And when Daddy believed that after two years, the car was unsafe because he was down in groves and giving really pretty hard wear to his car. So as soon as he bought one car, they started putting money away for

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another car, because they didn't buy it until they had the money for it. Every two years, he bought a new car. >> What was the first car you remember? >> It was a touring car.

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And it's strange, but I can remember that from before my brother was born. And he was born when I was four years old, because I had that whole back end. And Mother said they used to take little old ladies for Sunday afternoon drives. And said they had the worst problem with me, because I'd be back there and

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I'd say, because I'd had the whole back seat, I'd say, Mama, I'm crowded. [LAUGH] Didn't make the old ladies feel very good, I guess. They probably laughed at it.

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>> Tell me about your grandparents. >> Well, I only knew grandfathers, because both of my grandmothers died when I was a year old. Now my mother's father, and most people called him Mr. Mac,

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and we called him Grandpa, lived with us six months out of the year. He was very bald and just had a fringe around his hair. And he lived six months with us and six months with my uncle down here in Fort Lauderdale.

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And my mother and father were wonderful to put up with him. He insisted on having his main meal in the middle of the day, which is what he'd done as a farmer. So Mother had to fix him a regular meal in the middle of the day.

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And then at night he'd have gruel and tea. >> What is gruel? >> Almost liquid oatmeal. >> Okay.

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>> You know, you cook it with lots of water in it. And one thing I did enjoy doing when I was little, I could have tea with Grandpa, but it was really Cambridge tea. Do you know what Cambridge tea is?

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It's mostly milk with just a little tea board in it. >> Would you have a little tea party? >> No, just have tea while he was having his supper. And then he had lost his voice, but

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he'd sit on the front porch and he wanted to tell my friends what it was like when he was a boy. Well, my friends had to come in the back door so we didn't have to do it. So we weren't always happy with Grandpa.

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I mean, he was sweet. But the thing I remember most about him was newsprint on his nose. He had to read. He just couldn't give it up and his eyesight was so bad.

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He'd read the newspaper and he would have it so close that he'd end up with the newsprint and Mother said my father was a total angel because he would come home and want to read the paper and as soon as he got there and sat down on the porch with Mr. Mac, Mr. Mac would tell him everything that was in the paper.

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[LAUGH] His interpretation of it. >> What did you learn from that grandfather? >> Well, one thing, don't move in with your children.

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[LAUGH] >> I don't think that was what I was looking for. [LAUGH] >> I really don't remember too many of the stories that he had to tell us

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because I was, he lived to be 89. Both of my grandmothers died when they were 62 and both of my grandfathers lived to be 89. >> How about the other grandfather?

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Did he live close? >> No, he lived up in Lodgeway on the farm. And boy, was he independent. He was one of the last of the old patriarchs.

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He ruled the roost. He lived there and he managed the farm. The day to day operations were run by a bachelor son that lived with him. But Papa Brown, we called him Papa Brown instead of Grandpa,

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would not eat butter for lunch. It was made the day before except on Sunday. They had cows and butter was made every single day. [LAUGH]

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I was so naive. It was, they didn't make it with one of those churns. It was one of the ones that you turned like this. Somebody told me, I was a seven or eight and

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would have to do the churning right when you were there. That if you stopped, the butter would never gather. I can remember holding my arm and keeping on thinking it was going to drop off for fear.

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That if I stopped, I'd have to start all over again. [LAUGH] And Papa sat on the front porch and he didn't believe in drinking in front of the ladies, but

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he wanted his toddy before midday dinner and before supper. And when he got ready, he would say to his son, John, I'm ready for my toddy. And all the women would get up and go to the kitchen. He wouldn't move to drink, but they knew they had to get up and get out.

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[LAUGH] And I didn't know until after he died that my grandfather couldn't read. He went to town on Saturday and bought the groceries. And I said to him one time, don't you want a list, Grandpa?

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He says, I can remember everything I can afford to buy. And he used to give us a nickel to read the Jacksonville Times Union to him when we were there. Somebody had to read the paper to him, but

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I thought it was just because he liked for us to read to him. He carried it off very well. >> Did you visit? >> But he was very successful.

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And when he was 85, he bought 40 acres of land, because he'd been after that 40 acres for years and years. And he wanted it to square off his place. He had 600 acres when he died.

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And he rode horseback till he was 85. He had a cyst on his bladder. And that was in the days when the doctor told the family, instead of talking to the patient.

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And they told the family, and the family got together, and my widowed aunts cried, and my uncles cursed. And because they said he'd only have 10% chance of surviving an operation. And they were worried and worried, and finally one of them said,

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well, I guess we better ask Papa. So they asked Papa, and he says, hell, operate. I can't stand this. He was home from the hospital in three weeks, and

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he never got on a horse again, but he was just fine for the last four years. He'd be alive today at 140, I think, if they'd had a cure for pneumonia. Because he got pneumonia when he was 89. >> Would you visit, how often would you visit your granddad?

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>> Well, until Daddy died, we went up there every other weekend. Which of course, as you got to be a teenager, was a bummer. Because we didn't want to go. And we always went up for holidays.

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And then after Daddy died, we would go up sometimes and spend two weeks in the summertime up there. There'd be eight or ten cousins. >> So he had a large house.

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>> Yes, mm-hm. Well, we kids, it was a dog trot house. You know what a dog trot house is? You don't know what a dog trot house is?

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And you were a Florida Cracker? >> That's right. >> [LAUGH] It's the house with the open hallway down it. >> Okay.

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>> And rooms on each side. And then there was a covered passageway that led out to the kitchen and dining room, which were in a separate building. And but we kids slept in the dog trot and on quilts.

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It'd be, we'd- >> I just didn't know the name of it. >> Mm-hm. >> Yes. Did you learn to ride horses there? >> Yes, Papa had three riding horses and lots of mules.

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They were still using mules for plowing and so on, and five saddles. And the fastest ones got the horses with saddles, and the next two got mules with saddles. And the rest of us, if you were young and slow, rode the mules bareback.

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And we'd take a picnic and go down to Blue Springs and go swimming. >> Did you learn to milk a cow? >> I tried, but they didn't. That wasn't one of the things they demanded of us.

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We did have to help shell the peas. And as I say, take our turns at churning. And we had to pick the beans. They always had a big garden.

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And in later years, Papa's hogs were the best slopped hogs in the world. He never got over the idea that somebody might come by in a horse and buggy near mealtime, and you'd have to feed them,

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which is the way things were when he was younger. And even when it was just my various widowed daughters took care of Papa, they did have colored help all the time. But,

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I've lost my train of thought, what was I talking about? >> Hogs. >> The hogs. He insisted that there's enough food for 10 or 12 people,

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even though they were just Papa and his daughter and his bachelor son that always lived there. And later on, his bachelor brother came in. And later on, his brother's widow came to live with him.

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They were always taking people in, as we did too in our childhood. >> Did your granddad physically work the farm? >> I don't think, I don't know whether he ever did. He didn't during my lifetime.

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But I'm sure he did when he was younger and starting out he and the other one too, must have. >> In your family, did you just have the one sibling? >> Yes, I did, just my brother.

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>> Tell me what a Christmas was like when you were growing up. >> [LAUGH] It was a very interesting Christmas. My mother was from a two family. She had, her mother was married twice, and she was in the second family.

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And she had some half sisters and brothers that were old enough to have had children that went to school with her. And one of them was a sister who was a half sister who lived in Fort White. And so we always went up Christmas Eve to sisters, to mother's family.

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And that was about 20 miles from Papa Brown's place. And we would go out and cut down a tree, Christmas tree, bring it in and decorate it. And we would have supper, Christmas dinner it would be,

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just a regular big Christmas dinner, Christmas Eve night. And then we would go outside and build a bonfire and have fireworks, always on Christmas Eve. And the fathers would be out there and we'd have Roman candles and

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all sorts of things out there. And when we came back in, Santa Claus had been there. >> [LAUGH] >> And we believed in Santa Claus a lot longer than other kids because our daddies were there.

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It had to be Santa Claus, of course, our mothers weren't out there, but we didn't pay attention to that. [LAUGH] And so we had our presents Christmas Eve. Then Christmas morning, we got up and went over to Papa Brown's.

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And under the Christmas tree there were some presents that Santa Claus had forgotten to leave its sisters. So we had to believe in Santa Claus. And then we had Christmas dinner at Papa Brown's.

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And there would be 60, 70 people there because everybody would come with their kids, not everybody, but a great number of them. And in later years, the Browns and the McCombs, my mother was a McCombs, got together for lots of holidays.

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I had to always think, is this daddy's family or is it mother's? Because when there was a funeral or a graduation or a wedding, and it eventually included Thanksgiving, there was many McCombs's Browns and it was always at, [COUGH] excuse me,

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at Papa Brown's because Grandpa Mac had given up his farm before I remembered anything about it. >> When you had these big Christmas dinners, did your children have chores? Did you help with the dishes or?

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>> No. >> Who did all that work? >> The colored gal. And the women, of course, everybody did bring something. Except we didn't because we'd come from a long distance, but

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any of them that were close around brought it. And one of the things we always had was a barbecued kid. And that was my favorite. I don't ever remember eating either turkey or ham.

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They had turkey and ham. And we had one aunt who always made the best fresh coconut cake. She would grate the coconut herself. And you tried to be close enough to when they cut that cake to get a piece,

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because it went fast, it was just like that, gone. >> Do you recall the last time you went to a big dinner like that at your granddad's? How old were you? >> It was when I was working at the University of Florida, so

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I was in my 20s, yes. >> So you did that all through your childhood? >> Yeah. It was, we always had to be there no matter what.

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And now after Daddy died, my mother had been a housewife for 26 years. And she had to go back to school to get a job, and it was in the midst of the Depression. And so we didn't get up there every other weekend like we did when Daddy was alive.

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We made it up there, and we'd go up in the summertime and do the vacations. >> Yeah. Where did you start school? >> Winter Garden.

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>> Was it close enough to walk? >> Yes. About six blocks. >> Okay.

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>> And we'd had, I guess all 12 grades were in that building. But by the time I reached seventh grade, they had built a new high school, which included seventh through 12, called Lakeview High School. >> During that elementary school time,

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do you recall any teachers that made an impression on you? >> Oh my, yes. [LAUGH] There was, as a matter of fact,

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somewhere I've got a book, a photo album, that has my fourth grade teacher's picture in it, and I had written under it, "She is the best teacher in the world, I wish I could have her always." But I remember a gal who was later a principal,

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she was my second grade teacher, and I remember more my brother's run-in weather than mine. When one day on the way to school, we carried our, we had to come home for lunch for a long time, and then eventually we got,

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were allowed occasionally to bring our lunch. Well, for some reason or other, my brother did have a paper bag with him, and on his way to school, he saw a bee go into a Turk's cap. You know, that's the hibiscus that stays closed, the Turk's cap.

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Well, he put it in the bag, and he kept pulling, looking to see whether the bee was still in there. And the teacher made him bring the bag up and told him to open that bag. He tried to protest not to, and when the bee fell out, she gave him a Padlet.

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[LAUGH] >> What did your family say about that? >> They paddled him. [LAUGH]

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>> If the teacher was always right, absolutely. If you got in trouble at school and you found out about it, that- >> You got reprimanded at home, huh? >> Yes.

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One of the, you're talking about it, walking to school. The next block over from our house was a total vacant lot, and there was a path right kitty corner through the middle of it and some small trees and bushes.

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And a lot of the kids at our school went barefoot. Well, Mother wouldn't let us go barefoot, but we didn't want to stand out with shoes. So, [LAUGH] my brother and I would go to this vacant lot and

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we'd take our shoes off and put them up in one of these trees and then go to school. Of course, Mother couldn't tell we'd been barefoot from the condition of our feet, but we didn't think about that. And then we'd stop by and get our shoes and put them on and go home.

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Well, one day, we came back, shoes were gone. [LAUGH] We looked and we looked all over the ground. We looked, it was overgrown there.

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Well, finally we knew if we didn't get on home, we'd be in worse trouble. So we finally went on home and there on each side of the front door, was a pair of shoes. Mother, of course, had picked them up and brought them home.

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Well, we went in and we didn't say anything. And do you know that my mother died at age 81 without ever mentioning those shoes? We kept waiting and waiting and waiting to be punished. But that's the way my mother punished, was by making the punishment fit the crime.

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And she just made us anticipate this punishment which never occurred. >> Do you think, did the other children not wear shoes because they didn't have shoes? >> Some of them didn't. >> Okay, and everybody wanted to feel equal?

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>> Yeah. But anyhow, we took our shoes to school and put them in the desk. So we didn't really wear them when we took them off. We didn't continue wearing our shoes all the time.

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>> Do you remember what you enjoyed in elementary school? What subject? Or recess? >> [LAUGH] Well, I liked everything in school.

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And I guess one of the things we really liked was that, as I say, we had to go home for lunch. And if you made the honor roll, there was a day when you could come to lunch and have a spread, we called it.

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Everybody would bring something that was on the honor roll, and we'd, whether it was a blanket or a tablecloth or something, spread it out on the ground out there and put our food in. So that you tried hard to be on the honor roll, so that you could.

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And they had a different day for each grade, so that it wouldn't be too big a mess. >> Did you have several different classes of first graders, or were you all in one class?

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>> I think pretty much all in one class. >> And then when you finished seventh grade, then you went to another school? >> Yes, for sixth grade. >> Sixth grade.

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>> Went in the seventh grade. >> Okay. >> And that was about a mile out of town. But we still walked. They didn't have any buses that I know of.

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>> When you finished sixth grade, did you have a graduation? >> No, we just went on. >> When you were going then from seventh grade through 12, was that all considered high school?

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>> Yeah, they didn't have junior high those days. >> In high school, what was your favorite subject? >> I don't know, I didn't have time to figure it out, and I'll tell you why. When I was in the eighth grade, we had a principal, by the way,

00:28:13.280 - 00:28:30.400

I'll start out with that, named Mrs. Cretan. And she ruled that place with an iron fist. I'm telling you, we marched between classes. And if you got sent to Mrs. K, you were in trouble, and you knew it.

00:28:30.400 - 00:28:47.160

Well, in the eighth grade, I talked in study hall, and the teacher sent me to Mrs. K. She said, well Tex, if you don't know how to use a study hall, I guess you don't need one.

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She supervised my schedule till I graduated from high school. I never had another study hall. She looked, I would sign up for the college classes, and then she would find something.

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I ended up, in addition to all the college prep classes, I had two years of typing, two years of shorthand, two years of bookkeeping. I even had home ec, which the college-bound kids didn't have. And I was the first girl in the school to ever take physics, and

00:29:21.880 - 00:29:37.040

the first junior to ever take it. It was a senior boys class, and my junior year, when my schedule was made out, the only thing in that blank spot that I hadn't taken was physics, so she put me in the physics class.

00:29:37.040 - 00:29:52.680

So I ended up with, I don't know how many credits, and there were only 27 in my graduating class. And I was supposed to be the valedictorian, and my best friend, Jessie May, was going to be salutatorian.

00:29:52.680 - 00:30:12.000

And we were the class officers, and we were in the plays, and so on and so forth. We were the top dogs. [LAUGH] When the final showdown came for who was going to be who,

00:30:12.000 - 00:30:30.040

there was one little gal who was the daughter of some German immigrants who had never done anything except go to school, and she'd never talked to us about what she'd made, everybody else would pass the information back and forth. And she ended up valedictorian, and I was salutatorian, and Jessie got left out.

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[LAUGH] >> As the valedictorian, did she get to give a speech? >> Mm-hm, yeah. >> And as the salutatorian, what did you get?

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>> I had a speech, too. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Do you recall what that speech was about? >> No. [LAUGH]

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But I do remember one thing about my graduation. My boyfriend lived just half a block down from me, and he was class president, and he had to give a speech for giving the gift to the school, we always had a gift that we gave.

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Well, I wrote the speech for him, and he practiced that speech every time we went anywhere. He could say it backwards. He practiced and practiced that thing.

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Well, graduation night, the end of the speech was, we are happy tonight, for we have reached our goal. Well, Franklin got up there and he said, we are happy tonight. We are happy tonight.

00:31:40.720 - 00:31:54.480

[LAUGH] We are happy tonight. And then he turned to me and he says, heck, Tex, I forgot it. [LAUGH]

00:31:54.480 - 00:32:04.600

Which of course brought down the house. People still remember it. [LAUGH] >> What extracurricular activities did you participate in in high school?

00:32:06.280 - 00:32:26.600

>> Well, I was in Girl Scouts, and we lived in Titusville one year, my tenth grade. And I was in the Bluebirds over there because they didn't have scouts. I played a lot of tennis, we played tennis on the play court. And I was always in the plays.

00:32:26.600 - 00:32:47.320

And- >> Did they have a speech department? >> No, but I had elocution lessons. [LAUGH] That skit that I did was based on my elocution lessons that I had in school.

00:32:47.320 - 00:32:57.040

>> Do you recall what place you were in? >> No. >> Nancy wants to know what's elocution. >> Elocution, do you remember,

00:32:57.040 - 00:33:25.000

the rain in Spain? Well, elocution is proper enunciation and includes gestures to make your conversation more enjoyable. >> Were you in, did your high school have competitive sports with other schools?

00:33:25.000 - 00:33:34.800

>> Yes, but it was only for boys. So, that was that. And we didn't have cheerleaders or anything like that. We all went, but.

00:33:34.800 - 00:33:47.280

>> Okay. >> And. >> And your social life in high school? >> Well, I was a bit of a snob, I guess.

00:33:47.280 - 00:34:07.840

We started a sub-deb club, and there were ten of us in it. And we rushed people, and then we'd drop them. [LAUGH] And when we had our dance, I can remember my mother and

00:34:07.840 - 00:34:25.040

Frank's mother begging us with tears in our eyes to ask some more people. There were three boys to every girl in our group. We had ten girls and 30 boys at our dance. Had a little three piece band.

00:34:25.040 - 00:34:49.280

And when I was getting ready for college, I was being rushed by Tridel from Orlando. And I thought, I can't go to college if I'm not in a sorority. Well, in those days, well, that's getting on in beyond.

00:34:49.280 - 00:35:01.120

I'll go back to the high school. But anyhow, when we had that dance, we could see people standing outside that we'd rushed looking. But it didn't bother us.

00:35:01.120 - 00:35:19.440

I mean, we were just, as I say, we were the top. And the thing about it is, our parents were not. I can remember one time when I was about 12 or 13, I guess. We were walking into town, my mother and I, and

00:35:19.440 - 00:35:28.760

this kind of scruffy person was coming towards us. And I said, mother, please don't speak to him. Mother spoke to everybody. And I said, don't speak to him.

00:35:28.760 - 00:35:40.280

And when we got close to him, she says, how to do? And he says, how to do, Ms. Brown? And as we walked, her mother said, see? He knew who I was, and supposing I'd been uppity like you wanted me to be.

00:35:40.280 - 00:35:50.600

So it wasn't an example from home. It was just a phase, I guess, we went to. I hope I've outgrown it. [LAUGH]

00:35:50.600 - 00:36:04.000

>> Texas, you were growing up. Were you involved or was your family involved in church activities? >> My God, excuse me, yes. [LAUGH]

00:36:04.000 - 00:36:24.040

I was a Southern Baptist, and my mother was a Sunday school superintendent. And so I started teaching Sunday school when I was about 12 or 13 years old, because mother made me learn the lesson in case somebody didn't show up. For any of the younger ones.

00:36:24.040 - 00:36:41.280

And we had to be over there about 9, 15 to make sure all the stuff was out, because the Baptist church was the biggest church in town. And then we were, so we'd be there at 9, 15, and church at 11. And sometimes it didn't get out till 1 o'clock, as you know.

00:36:41.280 - 00:36:59.040

You said you were a Southern Baptist too. And then I had to go to BYPU, and then Sunday night service. Except once in a great while, mother would let me go, most of my friends were Methodist, would let me go to the Sunday night service.

00:36:59.040 - 00:37:11.120

For, with my Methodist friends. And then we went to Wednesday night prayer meeting. And mother never would have let me go to the Methodist church if she'd known what we were doing.

00:37:11.120 - 00:37:26.040

[LAUGH] That of course was non-air conditioned days. And had fans. And this was the fan that had, was it Firestone?

00:37:26.040 - 00:37:38.560

Time to retire. Remember the little kid that, and there was a dog there. He was in his pajamas and he was yawning and then it said time to retire, and the tire's in the background.

00:37:38.560 - 00:37:54.000

Well, the choir faced the congregation. And we would take these fans and sit on the back row and look at the fans until we yawned. And we wouldn't cover our mouths or anything.

00:37:54.000 - 00:38:03.760

To see how many in the choir we could get to yawn, we'd look up. [LAUGH] And you would be yawning. [LAUGH]

00:38:03.760 - 00:38:19.720

As I say, mother never knew about that or I would have always gone to the Baptist church on Sunday night. Now, daddy went to church, but he didn't, he was not a real heavy participant.

00:38:19.720 - 00:38:37.880

As a matter of fact, one time at Sunday dinner, my brother said to daddy, Daddy, don't you wish he'd say, Brother Brown, would you please lead us in prayer? He says, hell no, he knows better than I do. [LAUGH]

00:38:37.880 - 00:38:58.160

The Baptist minister lived just two blocks south of us. And he had the most contagious laughter you could ever imagine. And we could hear him laugh down there. And we'd fall out of our chairs laughing on our porch just from hearing him laugh.

00:38:58.160 - 00:39:14.160

And one Sunday, or not one Sunday, one day, he was driving past and I went out and held him down. And I said, Brother Sebastian, when you finished your sermon, you left Job sitting in the ashes with sackcloth on.

00:39:14.160 - 00:39:26.200

What happened to him? [LAUGH] The next Sunday he said, well, I guess I better take my sermon where I left off before, said Tex Brown told me I left Job in a terrible position.

00:39:26.200 - 00:39:35.680

[LAUGH] So. >> During the summer, did you ever go on youth camps or anything with the church kids?

00:39:35.680 - 00:39:48.280

>> Not with the church kids. I did go to Girl Scout camp one summer. >> Okay. >> At Wee Kiowa, right near Apopka. >> Had you already learned to swim before you?

00:39:48.280 - 00:40:06.240

>> Yes, when I was, summer I was four years old. My family spent a month on an island in Lake Hancock, which is about 12 miles out of town. There were three families and they had a tent platform and tents.

00:40:06.240 - 00:40:22.400

And all three of those mothers were nursing. My mother was nursing my brother and Mrs. Henderson and I've forgotten who the other one was. But anyhow, there were those three babies and

00:40:22.400 - 00:40:39.800

two other kids and I was four years old. And then there was one eight year old boy and he was bored out of his tree with all these little kids. So he asked mother if he could teach me to swim.

00:40:39.800 - 00:40:54.880

She said sure. So at the end of that summer, I swam a mile when I was four years old. Mother and Raymond, who had taught me, got in a rowboat and went down the place. So, yeah.

00:40:54.880 - 00:41:00.580

>> Okay, she has to change the tape. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Would you like a glass of tea or something?

00:41:00.580 - 00:41:17.240

And the, you're starting it over again? >> Yeah, but I want to hear about the outside privy. >> Between the privy and the house was the wood pile. And if you didn't take some wood and put it either on the platform outside

00:41:17.240 - 00:41:31.520

the living room where the fireplace was or the kitchen where the wood stove was, you got sent back. When you used the privy, you were supposed to bring it, turn the wood and bring it in so somebody wouldn't have to make a special trip out there.

00:41:31.520 - 00:41:41.160

>> What kind of soft tissue did they have out in the privy? >> Well, they had toilet paper. >> Oh, did they? Okay. >> [LAUGH]

00:41:41.160 - 00:41:54.320

I never had to use a Sears rowboat catalog that I know of. But fortunately, I can only remember once going out there at night, and I was scared to death. >> Right.

00:41:54.320 - 00:42:13.400

And what kind of, what did they use for lighting? >> Oil lamps, and you had to wash the lampshades every day. And one of the things about the farm, they had a smokehouse. And you used to hate to go out to the smokehouse,

00:42:13.400 - 00:42:25.240

because it was so dark and smelly in there. And the sausage hanging over those things looked like snakes, and I'm scared to death of snakes. There's no such thing as a non-poisonous snake.

00:42:25.240 - 00:42:41.880

They're all snakes are poisonous, and they're all out to get you. So I can remember one time, my aunt sent me out, I think, for a side of bacon or something. And I came back with a ham or something else,

00:42:41.880 - 00:42:59.240

because I was so scared trying to get away from those things that were, looked like the snakes were crawling out there. So, and we had, they kept a bucket on the front porch with a dipper in it.

00:42:59.240 - 00:43:14.080

That's people. Right by that bucket on the ground was the most beautiful blue hydrangea, because it got lots of water. Because when people would take a sip of water from the dipper,

00:43:14.080 - 00:43:32.560

they'd put the rest of it down on that hydrangea. And at that time, when I was younger, when that particular aunt was in charge, the yard was clear, it had a fence around it to keep the hogs and cows and everything else out of it.

00:43:32.560 - 00:43:48.880

And it was swept, had to sweep the leaves off every day. Going back to the horse, Papa had one horse that was pretty much put out to pasture.

00:43:48.880 - 00:44:10.880

And it was belloused, have you ever heard of a horse being belloused? It was when the wind was broken, when you'd run them. And so we were threatened with dire things if we ran pet. So, but one time we could run it.

00:44:10.880 - 00:44:25.320

And of course we would do that on purpose when we had to go round up the cows, because there was a no fence law in Florida. So the cows were just out in the woods. And when we went out to round up the cows, if we were on pet,

00:44:25.320 - 00:44:38.120

we would get somebody to cut a calf out so we could go running down and run the horse. [LAUGH] >> When you were growing up, who were your role models?

00:44:41.520 - 00:44:53.960

>> I don't know that I had any. I mean, it would have been our family, I guess, because- >> Could have been your mother? >> Probably, mm-hm.

00:44:53.960 - 00:45:11.080

>> And what was your ambition? Do you recall dreaming? >> No, I really don't remember thinking what I wanted to be. I just know that when I finally started college, my mother wanted me to take

00:45:11.080 - 00:45:23.840

education courses along with other things in case I needed, because this was in the Depression. And I was afraid if I took education courses, I might have to teach. So I wouldn't take any.

00:45:23.840 - 00:45:34.440

>> I didn't want that. >> But I can't really remember anything. Of course, I can remember that I wanted to be a nurse for a little while, but anytime anybody else vomits, I do too, so that wouldn't work.

00:45:34.440 - 00:45:45.760

[LAUGH] My children learned very young in life not to vomit in front of Mama, because I'd dash them into the bathroom, let them do it into the toilet, and I'd do it into the tub.

00:45:45.760 - 00:45:57.280

And then I'd do it again when I had to clean the tub. So that was, being a nurse, that was out. >> Right. >> And- >> Before you graduated from high school,

00:45:57.280 - 00:46:12.800

did you know what you were going to do after you graduated? >> No, I thought I wanted to be an accountant. >> Okay, but did you know you were going on to school? >> Yes, my father died my senior year in high school in October.

00:46:12.800 - 00:46:31.240

And I had already been accepted at Brunel College up in Georgia. But that was out when Daddy died. And so I knew I had to go to Florida State College for Women. And did you go to Florida State?

00:46:31.240 - 00:46:49.480

And so I enjoyed the bookkeeping that I did. So I thought I wanted to be an accountant. And I did take economics, they didn't have a major in accounting, they had a minor in accounting.

00:46:49.480 - 00:46:55.840

So- >> And you knew you couldn't go to Brunel because it was a private- >> Yeah, private school. >> Expensive school. >> Too expensive.

00:46:55.840 - 00:47:14.480

And plus, there would be that extra transportation to get there. >> When you went to college, where did you live? >> I lived in dormitories always, yeah. >> And tell me about, did you join a sorority?

00:47:14.480 - 00:47:36.080

>> Well, I'll tell you about that, before I left for college. By the way, go back to my mother again. She started very early making us make decisions. I can remember being very angry with Mother because she wouldn't tell me what to do.

00:47:36.080 - 00:47:49.600

If somebody asked me to spend the night, I'd say, Mother, can I go? She'd say, well, do you want to go? It's your decision to make. Or she'd do something else, and I'd say, well, Mother, please tell me.

00:47:49.600 - 00:48:05.600

She says, you're old enough now to decide between this and this. I can remember, I guess I was a junior in high school, and I had been wanting a date with this boy for a long time. And he asked me to go to a Sunday afternoon movie.

00:48:05.600 - 00:48:21.560

Well, in the Baptist church, Baptist family, you didn't go to church on, I mean, to movies on Sunday. But I thought, well, I'll take a chance. So I said to Mother that John had asked me to go to the movie Sunday afternoon.

00:48:21.560 - 00:48:32.760

And she said, well, wait a minute, let's talk about it. So she told me why she didn't want me to go. Didn't think it was the thing to do. But she said, you're old enough now to make your own decisions.

00:48:32.760 - 00:48:49.200

Well, I decided to go. And I didn't have a very good time because I felt like a sinner. [LAUGHTER] But-- and before that, we were--

00:48:49.200 - 00:49:02.080

Sorority. Oh, Mother said, here are your choices. At that time, in the Depression, if you belonged to a sorority, you couldn't get a job through the college.

00:49:02.080 - 00:49:14.760

Because they figured if you could afford the sorority, you didn't need the job. Somebody else needed it worse. She says, you can go one year, join a sorority, not worth it,

00:49:14.760 - 00:49:22.440

and have one year. And I'll do my best to get you through. She didn't have a very high-paying job. And Daddy didn't-- hadn't left much insurance.

00:49:22.440 - 00:49:31.320

The house was paid for. And the car was paid for. But she said, R, if you don't want to join-- I mean, don't join a sorority, you can--

00:49:31.320 - 00:49:48.120

and don't want to work, I'll try to get you through two years. She says, if you want to work, I'll do my darndest to get you through the four years, provided you say you'll help your brother.

00:49:48.120 - 00:50:01.200

And I left for college without having made up my mind. Because I thought maybe if I got there and I wasn't in a sorority, I wouldn't have a very good time or life would be miserable.

00:50:01.200 - 00:50:17.960

As I say, I was a bit of a snob. And God winked at me, because my big sister was Kitty Blood, who was the president of the student body. She was a dining room girl.

00:50:17.960 - 00:50:30.480

She didn't belong to a sorority. She worked, and that was the ultimate job. So well, if you could be president of the student body and not belong--

00:50:30.480 - 00:50:45.040

it's all right not to belong to a sorority. So I went right over and applied, and I got an NYE job working in the library for-- I think it was $0.20 an hour.

00:50:45.040 - 00:51:01.360

I worked 20 hours a week. And I learned a lot more from working in the library than I did from some of the courses I had to take. Because when I had graduated up to working on the desk,

00:51:01.360 - 00:51:11.720

you didn't have to read any of the new books, because they were saved for the teachers to read first. And they always wanted to talk about them when they came back. So you could talk about the books

00:51:11.720 - 00:51:34.760

without having to read them. And when I got to college, too, I found out that the first year after my freshman year, I got a job working in a nursery school, WPA nursery school.

00:51:34.760 - 00:51:47.120

Well, I'd never had any experience with little kids, because everybody that we knew had full-time colored help. And so we hadn't had any experience in babysitting or anything like that.

00:51:47.120 - 00:51:59.600

So I thought you were supposed to smile. So I smiled. One of the kids kicked me in the shins, and I looked down. I smiled and said, please don't do that.

00:51:59.600 - 00:52:09.720

I smiled. And about noontime-- I can see that little girl now with her Dutch bob. She pulled on my skirt, and I looked down, and I smiled.

00:52:09.720 - 00:52:27.720

She looked up at me, and she says, can't you shut your teeth at all? I didn't smile much the rest of the summer. But anyhow, I found out that the girls who went to Florida State

00:52:27.720 - 00:52:41.880

College for Women was for women only, and the University of Florida was for men only. But both summer schools were coeducational. So I found out that the gals that went to summer school

00:52:41.880 - 00:52:58.240

at the University of Florida had the best football weekend dates. So I was trying to figure it out. And so I put pen to pencil and showed mother that if I went to summer school at the University of Florida,

00:52:58.240 - 00:53:13.240

I could graduate in three years. So the next summer, I went to the University of Florida summer school. And it also enabled me to take a course

00:53:13.240 - 00:53:23.400

that I had not wanted to take under-- it was a required course that I didn't want to take under the professor that they had at Florida State College for Women.

00:53:23.400 - 00:53:35.680

So I was able to get that in, plus having a wonderful time and a little taste of coeducation. But I did have to live with an aunt. I wasn't allowed to--

00:53:35.680 - 00:53:46.080

During the summer? During the summer, yeah. Let me go back and ask you about the big sister. How did you get her as a big sister?

00:53:46.080 - 00:53:52.280

Well, they appointed a big sister to everybody as they came in. Oh, OK. And so you met with them.

00:53:52.280 - 00:54:11.160

And if you had any problems, she would go to them. And she is still alive. And let's see, it might have been about 10 years ago that I wrote her a letter and told her

00:54:11.160 - 00:54:24.160

how much she changed my life. And almost before she got it, she replied back again. She later taught at Florida State College for Women. And let's see.

00:54:24.160 - 00:54:37.480

So actually in college, she was your role model. Yeah. When you were at Florida State, what was your social life like before you

00:54:37.480 - 00:54:54.440

started going to summer school? Oh, well, I still had a boyfriend back at home. And he came up for some of the dances that we had. And otherwise, the big deal was to go to the sweet shop

00:54:54.440 - 00:55:08.240

for a hamburger. None of us had much money in those days. Things were tight all over. So you went through three years and finished.

00:55:08.240 - 00:55:16.040

And graduated from there. What was graduation like from college? Did your mom come? Oh, yes.

00:55:16.040 - 00:55:23.680

I graduated in August. The second summer, I had to go to Tallahassee for summer school. Yes, she came up.

00:55:23.680 - 00:55:33.120

Well, to go back a little bit, as I say, mother and daddy had lived 10 years in Tallahassee before I was born. And the people that they knew as young people starting out

00:55:33.120 - 00:55:42.600

had reached some pretty good pinnacles by the time I got to Tallahassee. One of them that was a teller in the bank was now the president of the bank.

00:55:42.600 - 00:56:04.920

And a friend of theirs was Secretary of State. And the doctor that delivered me was still there. And the dentist that they knew and had been good friends with was there.

00:56:04.920 - 00:56:19.320

And they were very nice to me when I was in college. Rob Gray, Mr. Robert Gray, was the Secretary of State. And he and his wife didn't have any children. But they invited me several times to dinner at their house

00:56:19.320 - 00:56:27.960

and had me bring my roommate. And then he took us to the governor's mansion for a tea and introduced us to the governor. Who was governor then?

00:56:27.960 - 00:56:39.320

Do you recall? It was the one before Fred Cohn. I don't remember. I don't remember.

00:56:39.320 - 00:56:52.520

But I do remember Fred Cohn. Do you remember Fred Cohn? He's from West Florida. I've never been so shocked in my life by that man.

00:56:58.240 - 00:57:08.760

But for those of you who don't know, in Florida, anybody can run for governor. And I think there must have been 15 people in the primary. And that was in the days of Tadabout time.

00:57:08.760 - 00:57:19.680

And if you don't know what Tadabout time is, in those days there were no Republicans in the state. It was all Democrats. And when the primary was over, whoever won the primary,

00:57:19.680 - 00:57:33.080

it was Tadabout to election because they didn't have any opposition. And somehow, Fred Cohn came up on top. And I don't think he went past the sixth grade.

00:57:33.080 - 00:57:43.600

At least he didn't act like it. Did you know him? I didn't know him. I was taking a government course when he was sworn in.

00:57:43.600 - 00:57:54.600

And so we had to go down and watch the inaugural address. His wife had a hat with a bird's nest on top with a bird in it. So help me God.

00:57:54.600 - 00:58:02.920

And she kept tilting her head. And we kept wondering if that bird was going to fall out or if she was right behind him. But he stood there on the steps of the Capitol,

00:58:02.920 - 00:58:21.760

on that platform, with the previous governor right behind him and called him a son of a bitch. Not an SOB, but a son of a bitch. I mean, all over the place.

00:58:21.760 - 00:58:40.840

All those Southern Baptists standing there. When you graduated from college, then what did you do? Let me go back to my graduation just for a minute. Mother did come up.

00:58:40.840 - 00:58:52.720

And Mr. Rob Gray, who was Secretary of State, was giving out the diplomas. So I got a special kiss. And another-- I'll go back a little bit in college,

00:58:52.720 - 00:59:04.480

if I may, for a minute. When Mother and Daddy lived there, for a while, Daddy worked for the Hotel Commission. And he had to go and inspect hotels.

00:59:04.480 - 00:59:23.760

And Dean-- I'll think of his name in a minute. He was Dean of the college that I was in-- was recruiting for the college at the time. And they often shared a room to save expenses on these trips.

00:59:23.760 - 00:59:44.640

And when-- after you'd been at Tallahassee for a semester, you had to have an interview with the dean. And so I went in and had a roomful of people and signed my name to get in line.

00:59:44.640 - 00:59:57.400

And I-- two people had gone in ahead of me. And the dean stuck his head out. He said, Tex Brown. I said, yes, sir.

00:59:57.400 - 01:00:08.760

He says, come in here. Well, he was a very gruff man. And when I went in, he said, was your father Alec? And I said, yes, sir.

01:00:08.760 - 01:00:15.360

Your mother Josephine? Yes, sir. He says, let me hug your neck. And he gave me a big bear hug.

01:00:15.360 - 01:00:33.400

And he had remembered that they'd had a child named Tex. And so I really had a good time at college. I mean, I was-- some privileges that-- and I did get the mumps after my freshman college--

01:00:33.400 - 01:00:43.800

Christmas vacation. And I was in isolation for 17 days. Every time-- I would feel fine. I was ready to go.

01:00:43.800 - 01:00:52.080

I'd have my bag packed. And the doctor, the one that had delivered me, would come in. And I swear it was my eyeball he felt. He said, oh, you could still feel a lump there.

01:00:52.080 - 01:01:01.240

They were having a flu epidemic. And he didn't want me to get out in it because he was interested in me personally because of my family.

01:01:01.240 - 01:01:09.080

Did they have a dispensary there at the school? Well, they had an infirmary there. An infirmary. Yeah, a place where you could go if you--

01:01:09.080 - 01:01:23.840

and now, that was-- that might have saved my college career because some of the people got into such a panic taking exams that they couldn't do it.

01:01:23.840 - 01:01:35.400

And I might have been one of them because one of the terrible things that happened to me in high school was that if you made a certain grade, a high grade,

01:01:35.400 - 01:01:50.080

and hadn't missed school, you could be exempt from your final exam. I had never taken a final exam in high school. I didn't even know how to approach a final exam.

01:01:50.080 - 01:02:03.400

Well, I had to take my exams in the hospital in isolation. So other people's worry didn't get to me. And as I say, that-- after that, then I didn't--

01:02:03.400 - 01:02:14.920

I was worried about it, but not panicked like I would have been if other people were panicking around me. So what kind of student were you in college? So-so.

01:02:14.920 - 01:02:32.320

Because I-- for one thing, I worked 20 hours a week. And I-- Bs and some Cs, occasionally, but not-- Did any of those professors have an influence on your life? Very definitely.

01:02:32.320 - 01:02:50.000

And the librarian had a great influence on my life. She also happened to take a very personal interest in me. The father of a friend of mine from Winter Garden had some business in Tallahassee.

01:02:50.000 - 01:03:02.960

And he used to have to stay up there for a week, and then go home, and then come back. And occasionally, I would go home with him, because it was 260 miles.

01:03:02.960 - 01:03:16.960

And to get there by bus took all day long. And one time, we were getting-- we didn't leave Winter Garden till midnight. And when-- by the time we got to Tallahassee,

01:03:16.960 - 01:03:33.400

he dropped me off at my dorm, which was right across from the library. And he-- the librarian was coming to work, and she saw me. So when I came to work, she said, did you drive all night?

01:03:33.400 - 01:03:41.160

And I said, well, most of the night. She said, you need sleep for your classes. You go home. I'll credit you for this time.

01:03:41.160 - 01:03:56.400

And she made me go home and take a nap. And then my accounting teacher was the only woman CPA in the state of Florida. And then there was an economics teacher.

01:03:56.400 - 01:04:05.880

And at the moment, I can't remember her name. But she made economics very interesting, if you can imagine that. It was fascinating.

01:04:05.880 - 01:04:19.240

-Tex, what was the difference, do you feel, with a girl coming out of college when you finished college, as far as work opportunities, than girls coming out of college today?

01:04:19.240 - 01:04:31.960

-Day and night. Because, of course, getting any job was like it must be today for somebody in this particular economic climate.

01:04:31.960 - 01:04:52.400

But the only job I could get when I graduated from college was at home as a bookkeeper working for the Watergarden Citrus Exchange, where they knew me. Because there just were not jobs in 1938.

01:04:52.400 - 01:05:12.520

-But how was your preparation different, say, from a male college student? What was expected more of them than of females graduating, as far as executive type jobs?

01:05:12.520 - 01:05:23.480

-Well, there weren't any executive type jobs for women that I know of. So there-- I can't-- -It just wasn't expected of women.

01:05:23.480 - 01:05:36.360

-You were going to work, maybe, a little while, and get married and have a lot of children. -And as far as studying to be a doctor or a lawyer, that was pretty much reserved for the male?

01:05:36.360 - 01:05:47.880

-They weren't-- they had no med school where I was. But our law school, that was only at the University of Florida, where the men were. And women weren't allowed to go there.

01:05:47.880 - 01:06:04.720

So there's one of your answers there. And at that time, there were only the three state universities, that and Florida A&M, which was co-educational. But that was for blacks only.

01:06:04.720 - 01:06:20.440

-So when you graduated, then you got a job as a bookkeeper? -And I lived with mother. And mother and I got along fine. But I was miserable, because I'll never know that much again.

01:06:20.440 - 01:06:30.840

I'll never be that smart again. I wore my hair on top of my head. I've got a picture in here of my hair piled on top of my head in the highest heels.

01:06:30.840 - 01:06:39.280

And every one of those men had known me all my life in a Citrus Cooperative. And they just mentally said, isn't she cute, patting me on the head.

01:06:39.280 - 01:07:00.720

I mean, I just didn't get any respect. So at the end of the season, I quit my job and borrowed money. And I went back to Florida State College for Women and took education courses.

01:07:00.720 - 01:07:18.880

I thought, God, I don't want to teach. But I'd rather teach than be stuck there. And I had good enough grades that I could carry nine hours. Usually the usual hours was six.

01:07:18.880 - 01:07:32.760

But if you had-- I had good enough. So I took two summer sessions, nine hours each, 18 hours of education. And I vomited all summer.

01:07:32.760 - 01:07:43.760

It was terrible. Some of those courses were just so awful. But I did get a job while I was there with the State Department of Education.

01:07:43.760 - 01:07:59.640

And I worked 20 hours a week at the State Department of Education, as well as taking a nine-hour load. And before the summer was over, I was offered a job at the State Department of Education,

01:07:59.640 - 01:08:10.920

a permanent job. But I finished and got my teaching certificate. But I never used it in Florida. So what did you do at the State Department of Education?

01:08:10.920 - 01:08:22.400

Well, I started out as a secretary to the man that was in charge of textbooks and transportation. And then one day I came in and he said, I guess you're going to change places.

01:08:22.400 - 01:08:32.840

And the director of administration and finance, under whom he worked, had decided-- his secretary left and he decided he wanted me. So I had to go and work for the director of administration

01:08:32.840 - 01:08:49.920

and finance. There were two divisions in the State Department of Education, then the finance and the instructional. And so we had transportation and textbooks.

01:08:49.920 - 01:09:09.960

And they didn't call it retarded. But the disabilities group-- Special Ed? Yes, more or less.

01:09:09.960 - 01:09:30.080

Except they didn't even call it Special Ed then. That man was a workaholic. And I was dumb enough, because I wanted to make good so badly, that I worked like a fool.

01:09:30.080 - 01:09:42.200

I would go in at 7 in the morning to file what I'd done the day before. And I would work sometimes till 10 o'clock-- well, that's the nights-- till 10 o'clock at night.

01:09:42.200 - 01:09:50.000

And on Saturday-- at those days we had to work till noon on Saturday. Everybody did. But I would work Saturday afternoon

01:09:50.000 - 01:10:03.680

and sometimes I'd go in Sunday before church. I did go to church. But I would go in at 7 o'clock, as I say, to file what I'd finished the night before.

01:10:03.680 - 01:10:16.960

And there on my desk would be four dictaphone records. He couldn't sleep, so he'd come down and dictate in the middle of the night. And I'd sit there and cry while I filed,

01:10:16.960 - 01:10:36.000

because I'd have to get started again. And so I was lucky, because a boy that I had dated in the 10th grade in Titusville was going through law school.

01:10:36.000 - 01:10:51.800

And he was at the University of Florida. And he was a student assistant to the dean of the Buss Ed College. And he called me one day and he said,

01:10:51.800 - 01:11:04.480

Texas hasn't been advertised yet, but the dean's secretary is leaving. And I bet you would enjoy working for Dean Matherly. Well, I thought, boy, I'm going to try.

01:11:04.480 - 01:11:18.320

It was getting me down. I didn't have time for any kind of a life. I was just work, work, working. And as a matter of fact, just before Virgil had called,

01:11:18.320 - 01:11:25.920

we had a big walk-in vault. And I had walked in the vault. And one of the men in the office had something he wanted me to do. And he just happened to follow me.

01:11:25.920 - 01:11:33.440

And he says, Miss Brown. And I said, ah! I didn't know anybody was there. I said, boy, I've got to do something.

01:11:33.440 - 01:11:49.320

I've got to get out of this. And so anyhow, I made arrangements over Labor Day weekend to have an appointment with Dean Matherly on Labor Day.

01:11:49.320 - 01:12:00.560

And it was at the end of my vacation. I had gone up to Philadelphia to visit my aunt. And we went to the World's Fair. And--

01:12:00.560 - 01:12:05.240

So what year was that? '38. Or '30-- no, wait a minute. '40?

01:12:05.240 - 01:12:16.080

No, I said I worked '38, '39. It would have been '39. Mm-hmm. In those days, they had a coast-wide steamer.

01:12:16.080 - 01:12:29.480

Did you know that? The Clyde Line used to go from New York, stop in Charleston, Jacksonville, to Miami. And so I wanted to come home that way.

01:12:29.480 - 01:12:43.920

So I made a reservation. And we went to the fair. And then I got on the ship to come home. And there were a guy from New York, a guy from Florida,

01:12:43.920 - 01:12:56.520

and a gal from New York, and me. And we got placed together at the table. And we'd gotten home in the afternoon and gotten our deck chairs.

01:12:56.520 - 01:13:07.640

We got our deck chairs together. And we went to dinner. And we were supposed to leave about 7. And there was an announcement that we wouldn't

01:13:07.640 - 01:13:20.560

be leaving until midnight, because there was a storm off of Harris. Well, by that time, when talking, the guy from New York had found out

01:13:20.560 - 01:13:32.640

that neither this guy from Florida or me had ever been to a nightclub in New York City. So he had parked his car in a garage there by the thing. So we had to go into town.

01:13:32.640 - 01:13:46.480

So we went into town and went to a nightclub. We got back at midnight. And they said, we're not leaving till 4 in the morning. So we danced on the ship and finally went to bed

01:13:46.480 - 01:13:53.600

about 3 o'clock, I guess. Woke up the next morning, looked out. I mean, it was so calm. We weren't rolling or anything.

01:13:53.600 - 01:14:05.560

Looked out. We were still at the dock. Well, I'd figured out that if I didn't-- I had this friend that was meeting me in Jacksonville--

01:14:05.560 - 01:14:18.600

that if I stayed on, we were going to be too late for my interview. So I said I couldn't stay. So they refunded every single cent, including my deck chair,

01:14:18.600 - 01:14:36.360

and paid my taxi, got me a reservation on the train. So I called my friend and went down on the train and had my interview with Dean Matherly. And I thought it would last half an hour.

01:14:36.360 - 01:14:51.280

I was there 2 and 1/2 hours, I think, and he offered me the job before I left. So I went back and resigned and worked for Dean Matherly for two years.

01:14:51.280 - 01:15:03.240

And it was daylight from dark. How I even had the nerve to go to the WASPs-- I went to something else after him. He was a perfect boss.

01:15:03.240 - 01:15:18.080

He had-- for one thing, he had photographic memory. He was in very great demand for speaking all over the state of Florida. And he never even carried notes with him.

01:15:18.080 - 01:15:28.760

I would type his speech up and he would learn it. And that was that. And I know he had the photographic memory because one time I had typed his speech up

01:15:28.760 - 01:15:40.040

and he had written something in handwriting up the side, sideways. People thought when he was looking this way and this way that he was looking at the crowd,

01:15:40.040 - 01:15:55.000

but he was reading his speech. And I saw when he came to that side spot, I happened to see him do that speech. And I saw his eyes go down the side to pick up that side

01:15:55.000 - 01:16:05.800

thing. But in the morning when I opened the mail, I would get the pertinent information that went with it and take it in to him.

01:16:05.800 - 01:16:16.680

And then he'd say, please close the door. And I was given orders not even to let the president of the university through to him when he was in there getting ready for dictation.

01:16:16.680 - 01:16:26.680

And then when he called me in, he knew exactly what he wanted to say. In the meantime, the man I had worked for before, when he put the stuff on the dictaphone,

01:16:26.680 - 01:16:34.520

he never knew what he wanted to say until he saw it printed. So he was always changing it. And that was in the days when you had to type the whole thing over again.

01:16:34.520 - 01:16:45.240

It wasn't like the computers today. And I'd sometimes-- six times I would have to type something before-- type the whole thing.

01:16:45.240 - 01:16:56.520

Dean Matherly knew exactly what he wanted to say. And his philosophy was, you do not write a letter on the second page. Nobody wants to read the second page.

01:16:56.520 - 01:17:07.960

I rewrote one letter for him in two years. And that was because the widest margin I could make and as much as I could put it up and down, I couldn't get it on one page.

01:17:07.960 - 01:17:23.480

Boy, I was wordy today. So he cut some out so we could get it on one page. And when I was learning to fly, he found out about it. And he called me in and he said, when are you flying?

01:17:23.480 - 01:17:32.880

And I said, after work. He says, I don't like that. Well, in those days, we had an hour and a half for lunch. He says, you can fly at lunch.

01:17:32.880 - 01:17:46.600

We'll worry about that another half hour later. So he made me go at noontime to fly. With that, let me ask you, when is the first time that you saw an airplane?

01:17:46.600 - 01:18:03.040

Or what gave you the idea that you wanted to learn to fly? I was always interested in planes, but not in flying particularly, because my father took a flight, one of the early flights,

01:18:03.040 - 01:18:27.480

from Tampa across years and years ago. And I always wanted to go up, but I never had. And going back to Gainesville, I roomed with three other gals. And one of them came to me one day and she said, Tex,

01:18:27.480 - 01:18:38.880

I found out-- I'd never been up in a plane at this point-- they haven't cut women out of the CPT program where you can learn to fly.

01:18:38.880 - 01:18:48.840

In the meantime, we liked to go to Daytona. And we used to work till noon on Saturday. We'd get the bus and it went up to St. Augustine and down to Daytona.

01:18:48.840 - 01:19:02.840

And then Sunday afternoon, it was about 5 o'clock and we'd have to get on the bus and do the same thing. So we didn't really have much time at the beach. And Ernestine said, I found out that we can learn to fly.

01:19:02.840 - 01:19:09.000

I said, I know the other two girls wouldn't do it, but I bet you would. She said, let's learn to fly. And I found out there's a flying club we

01:19:09.000 - 01:19:20.440

could join for $25 a year and get half price renting the plane. I said, I bet they'd go with us if we learned to fly. They might not learn to fly, but I bet they'd go with us.

01:19:20.440 - 01:19:29.740

So Ernestine and I went out. Neither of us had been up in a plane. Never been so scared in my life. I liked the first part of it, but when

01:19:29.740 - 01:19:39.760

he throttled back to land, I thought the engine had quit. We were going to die. I got down to the ground. I said, Lord, I'll never try to make like a bird again.

01:19:39.760 - 01:19:47.600

So help me. Well, Ernestine talked me into going back, and then the rest was history. What kind of plane was that?

01:19:47.600 - 01:19:59.360

A Cub, a Piper Cub. And then did you get in the CPT program? How were you able to do that? Just signed up.

01:19:59.360 - 01:20:09.560

Was there a quota for-- Not that I-- if so, they didn't tell us that. They let us-- we both signed up at the same time. Who was running that?

01:20:09.560 - 01:20:15.240

Was it the university? Part of their program? Now, that I don't know. All I know is we--

01:20:15.240 - 01:20:22.920

I don't think it-- I really don't know. I'd better say it that way. What did the CPT program consist of?

01:20:22.920 - 01:20:34.920

Did you also have ground school? Yeah. And best of his heart, my instructor let me fly the absolute maximum amount,

01:20:34.920 - 01:20:51.960

because he knew I was going to have to start paying for it afterwards. And I was very fortunate with my instructor. He had his own plane, a white Taylor Craft.

01:20:51.960 - 01:21:09.560

And he-- well, I'll go-- let me backtrack here a minute. One time when we were flying, I looked down, I said, ah, there's my grandfather's farm.

01:21:09.560 - 01:21:21.000

He said, would you like to see your grandfather? I said, yes. So we landed in the pasture in front of the house. And we walked up to the house, and Papa was on the porch.

01:21:21.000 - 01:21:30.320

And as I say, my grandfather never got up when he wanted a drink. The women got up. So I just expected that Papa would always

01:21:30.320 - 01:21:37.400

sit where they were on the porch. I introduced him to my instructor, and we talked for a while. And then my grandfather said, Tex,

01:21:37.400 - 01:21:47.560

could you go out in the kitchen with me? Boy, that startled me. But we went out in the kitchen. He says, is that man on parole for stealing cattle?

01:21:47.560 - 01:21:58.920

I said, I don't know, but I'll see if I can find out, Papa. So when I got back in-- this was a cross-country. I asked him. He said, well, yes.

01:21:58.920 - 01:22:09.320

He had this white tailor craft. And do you know Gainesville at all? There's Payne's Prairie, which is a great big prairie on the south side of Gainesville.

01:22:09.320 - 01:22:21.800

And that was, as I say, in the days of no-fence law. And a lot of people would put their cattle down in Payne's Prairie because there was water and lots of food for them.

01:22:21.800 - 01:22:27.200

And then they would come back and get them. They'd brand them and put them there. Well, what happened-- Hold it just a minute, Tex.

01:22:27.200 - 01:22:40.120

She's got to change the-- He had this white tailor craft. And what he would do is his father would come with a truck on the edge of the prairie.

01:22:40.120 - 01:22:52.360

And he would cut a cow out with his tailor craft and herd him over to the truck. And his father would load him on the truck. And they got caught.

01:22:52.360 - 01:23:03.760

Well, he was out on parole because they needed flight instructors so badly. This was during the war. And so instead of putting him in jail,

01:23:03.760 - 01:23:16.000

they paroled him, provided he wouldn't steal any more cows. I don't know whether he did or not, but he also had a farm. And when we started out in the morning, the first thing we did--

01:23:16.000 - 01:23:27.400

it was a woods on this side of the farm-- we would fly right over the woods and see if he could catch his colored man that was sharecropping for him, lazing.

01:23:27.400 - 01:23:37.760

And he'd see us coming or hear us coming. And he'd start running for the woods as hard as he could, because he always went down close to the ground. It's scary.

01:23:37.760 - 01:23:47.920

And sometime when he couldn't quite make it, he'd just flop down on the ground. And we'd go over his head. And one time-- so he was pretty adept.

01:23:47.920 - 01:24:02.280

We did quite a few aerobatics, things that I'm sure we weren't supposed to do in the plane. But then on my cross country, dual cross country, we went down to Cedar Key.

01:24:02.280 - 01:24:13.680

And it was a friend of his down there. And we kept circling and cutting back. And he'd talk to him and then put the gas on again. And when we got through talking to his friend, he says,

01:24:13.680 - 01:24:26.280

you want to see something really pretty? And I said, sure. So we went down to the swanny, or up to the swanny. And he flew right over the water about four or five feet.

01:24:26.280 - 01:24:36.160

And the trees were meeting over our heads. And we came to a curve. And there were two men in a boat with a kicker. And they jumped overboard.

01:24:36.160 - 01:24:48.240

They saw us coming. But I was really glad when we came to a clearing and he got up, because I was scared, frankly, flying that close down to the--

01:24:48.240 - 01:24:56.880

Do you recall where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor? And how did that affect you? Cost me a boyfriend.

01:24:56.880 - 01:25:09.880

[LAUGHTER] I'm not sure exactly when I heard. But I remember all of us being in the living room of our apartment there in Gainesville.

01:25:09.880 - 01:25:21.560

Our boyfriends had come. And this boyfriend that I had was a law student. And he was in ROTC. And of course, we listened, and we listened, and we listened.

01:25:21.560 - 01:25:36.440

And I eventually fell asleep. And he was incensed that with his having to go off and die, that I could possibly go to sleep. [LAUGHTER]

01:25:36.440 - 01:25:51.240

But I don't remember exactly when I heard it first. Right. Did that happen before you started taking CPT? No, I was taking CPT at the time.

01:25:51.240 - 01:26:10.280

How do you think that changed the role of women? Oh, totally. Because all of a sudden, they found out we could do things. They didn't know we could, because they wouldn't let us.

01:26:10.280 - 01:26:24.120

And when the men left and the women had to come forth and do things-- I mean, I always knew I could, because my mother had always told me I could do anything I wanted to do.

01:26:24.120 - 01:26:39.160

Said, you just have to want to do it bad enough. And so I was confident that I could do it. But I really didn't have too much aspiration, because the opportunities weren't there.

01:26:39.160 - 01:26:54.740

What did your mother say when you told her you were going to start taking flying lessons? I didn't tell her until I was five or 11. But she was the first person I took up when I got my license.

01:26:54.740 - 01:27:05.600

And it was amazing. I didn't realize it at the time, but I did after I started taking other people up. My mother was remarkable.

01:27:05.600 - 01:27:17.520

Most people try to stay perpendicular to the earth when you bank. She just relaxed, and I took and showed her where our place was that we lived and around.

01:27:17.520 - 01:27:28.520

And she was just as relaxed as she could be. It was amazing. But she wasn't happy when I was going into the WASPs. And I'll get to that later.

01:27:28.520 - 01:27:43.320

But my brother, who was-- my brother was at the university while I was working there. And-- Did he get good grades because you were working there?

01:27:43.320 - 01:27:51.640

Oh, no. But I did. At one point, I had to do all of his accounting homework when he was running for a political office,

01:27:51.640 - 01:28:01.040

because I could. But when he heard I had taken mother up, oh, he hit the ceiling. He said, that's my mother, too, and you

01:28:01.040 - 01:28:13.880

don't have to risk her life taking her up in that tiny little old plane. So I took him up, and I changed his life. He had thought he wanted to be in the Air Force.

01:28:13.880 - 01:28:23.120

Well, he was behind me, and I thought he would like the aerobatics. I didn't do any aerobatics with mother, but I thought he would like it.

01:28:23.120 - 01:28:32.880

So I shone-delled, and I looped, and so on. I didn't hear anything from him. I got down, and he was green as grass, so he went in the Navy instead.

01:28:32.880 - 01:28:51.880

When did you first hear about a training program to train women to fly military aircraft? It was after I went on active duty with the Civil Air Patrol. OK.

01:28:51.880 - 01:29:06.640

Let me ask you, as a member of the Civil Air Patrol, what were your duties? Well, I was doing bookkeeping work, but I also got to fly, because when

01:29:06.640 - 01:29:17.560

I heard about the opening in the Civil Air Patrol, when I went down, I said, hey, I've got a job I like. So I don't want to just do bookkeeping. I'll only come if you'll let me fly.

01:29:17.560 - 01:29:29.280

So I did do some flying, but I was not checked out as a pilot, but they let me fly quite a bit. Did you still have your job with the dean at that point? Well, I did when I went.

01:29:29.280 - 01:29:49.760

I mean, I had worked for the dean almost two years, and I had gotten my pilot's license. And a friend who knew I liked to fly told me about this job, so I went down to Sarasota to interview for the job,

01:29:49.760 - 01:30:01.520

because it was for a bookkeeper. But as I say, I told him, hey, I'm not coming unless I can fly, too. We were looking for submarines in the Gulf of Mexico.

01:30:01.520 - 01:30:12.160

So you quit your job? So I quit my job. And as I say, it was such a good job, and I never had to do any overtime.

01:30:12.160 - 01:30:22.720

And the dean was very thoughtful, and he was organized, and he was away a lot, and so I ran things myself. And the university was for men only,

01:30:22.720 - 01:30:43.800

so I had a great social life, because there were not only from normal points of view, but there were 22 South American students there. And at Christmas time, the president's secretary's father

01:30:43.800 - 01:30:54.560

had been an ambassador to Cuba, so she knew Spanish. So the boys that couldn't go home, couldn't afford to go back home, she had a big party and invited the secretaries.

01:30:54.560 - 01:31:03.000

Oh, my lord, did they-- you see, they hadn't had any contact with women at all. And so they really took to us. They serenaded us at 2 in the morning.

01:31:03.000 - 01:31:21.880

We thought we might get kicked out of our apartment. And I dated one guy whose name was Roberto Zuelo-Helpi. It was spelled G-E-L-P-I. Well, my brother had a fit that I was dating this greasy foreigner.

01:31:21.880 - 01:31:33.560

And Roberto would come to pick me up, and he'd say, I saw Jerry today. He called me Gelpi. I'd see my brother and say, hey, lay off.

01:31:33.560 - 01:31:44.600

I said, he was engaged when he was two years old. He's going back and marry this girl. I said, he can afford to take me out for dinner. I said, when I date these other guys, if we get a hot dog,

01:31:44.600 - 01:31:53.120

it's lucky. But he takes me out for dinner. He gives me orchids. And I still did date the other people, too.

01:31:53.120 - 01:32:06.440

And I saw Jerry today. He called me Gelpi. When you got down to Daytona-- was it Daytona? No, Sarasota.

01:32:06.440 - 01:32:15.160

Sarasota. Where did you live? Did you live with other girls? Well, when I first went there, I rented a room

01:32:15.160 - 01:32:28.040

for about two months. And then I got into an apartment with another girl. And her last name was Smith, by the way-- Brown and Smith. But we had the El Patio Apartments.

01:32:28.040 - 01:32:42.120

That's one of the few places I remember the name of it. And there were only three of us gals and 125 men in the Civil Air Patrol. And--

01:32:42.120 - 01:32:53.320

What kind of airplanes were you flying? Well, telecrafts and Roncos. All the planes were planes that the men that were in it had brought.

01:32:53.320 - 01:33:06.280

They were their own personal planes. We didn't have any government planes at all. And we were paid-- we weren't paid. We just had a per diem.

01:33:06.280 - 01:33:22.760

Could never remember whether it was per diem or per dime. So I used to say, well, here comes our per diem, per dime. Anything unusual happen when you were flying for the CAP? Well, it didn't involve flying.

01:33:22.760 - 01:33:38.600

But one unusual thing happened. I went with this guy to the sunrise Easter service at Bok Tower. And he had on his uniform with the red epaulettes.

01:33:38.600 - 01:33:48.960

And I just had a dress on. I didn't have my uniform on. And we had gone to the service. And we happened to be at the gate where the carillon here

01:33:48.960 - 01:33:56.080

was coming out. And he saw the epaulettes. So he was interested. And he came over to speak to us.

01:33:56.080 - 01:34:07.560

And when he found out that I also flew, he was just fascinated with the whole idea. So he said, would you like to go inside? It hasn't been open for years.

01:34:07.560 - 01:34:18.000

I went in when I was about 12. But I hadn't been inside. So I've got some pictures taken from the top of the Bok Tower. So we got to go because of our uniform with that.

01:34:18.000 - 01:34:32.240

But we never saw any-- our group never saw any submarines. I don't know what we'd have done with them if we'd caught them. Was it while you were there that you heard about the training program?

01:34:32.240 - 01:34:40.400

How did you hear about that? I really don't remember exactly. It's just that I heard about it. And I applied.

01:34:40.400 - 01:34:53.440

And they sent me to Tampa for my physical. And then they called me back. And this time, there was a major and a colonel. And they fluoroscoped me.

01:34:53.440 - 01:35:02.920

And they kept saying, hmm, never seen anything like that. That's odd. That's interesting. I said, what, what, what, what?

01:35:02.920 - 01:35:18.600

I didn't exist. They never answered my question. So I didn't know what was going on, what was wrong. But then I got my orders to come.

01:35:18.600 - 01:35:28.520

So I came. And then I just kind of forgot about it, except that after I graduated, when I changed bases, they found whatever it was.

01:35:28.520 - 01:35:47.600

And they had me come back again. Well, at Wilmington, I finally got hold of somebody from the x-ray department and batted my eyes out, even to tell me what it was.

01:35:47.600 - 01:36:08.320

Your diaphragm comes around. And over where my liver was, was what looked like a lemon, just about the size of a lemon. And later on, when it flared up, many years later,

01:36:08.320 - 01:36:21.480

they didn't know whether it was a cancer or a hernia. But why they let me in, I don't know with that particular physical thing. I should have been in class three,

01:36:21.480 - 01:36:30.000

but for holding up for this physical. And then I got into seven. When you went to Tampa for the physical, did you go to the Air Force Base?

01:36:30.000 - 01:36:40.520

Yeah. Then did you have an interview with anybody? No. I don't know.

01:36:40.520 - 01:36:48.440

What did your mom say when you-- or did you tell her what you were about to do? Oh, yeah. I told her about that one.

01:36:48.440 - 01:37:03.800

Well, she was not enthusiastic, and she usually was very enthusiastic about anything I did. And I was trying to find it, but it must be filed away in my daughter's safety deposit box.

01:37:03.800 - 01:37:16.800

I only saved one letter from my mother. And she wrote that she was sorry that she had not been enthusiastic about it. She said, it's your life, not mine.

01:37:16.800 - 01:37:29.000

And she says, now that you're in there, be the best damn pilot in the Air Force. And my mother didn't curse at all. Did any of the other girls that you knew,

01:37:29.000 - 01:37:36.960

did they apply for this training? No. But I do have an interesting story about the gal who talked me into flying.

01:37:36.960 - 01:37:53.320

Shortly after Pearl Harbor, I guess in January, her boyfriend, who was a law student, graduated and took a job in Washington, DC. And she left and moved to Washington, DC.

01:37:53.320 - 01:38:03.240

Now, I had known her in college, but not well. She was two years behind me, because this was her first job in Gainesville. She had an identical twin sister,

01:38:03.240 - 01:38:18.080

and they were great in the Dolphin Club. But anyhow, I lived with her for a little over a year and lost track of her. And I moved in here.

01:38:18.080 - 01:38:27.200

I didn't know Seoul. I'd been here about two weeks when somebody tapped me on the shoulder, and I turned around, and she said, Tex, I'm Ernestine.

01:38:27.200 - 01:38:43.400

And she had married Julian, that I knew, too. And they had seen my picture and name in the newcomers that they put in the thing. And we've had a great time catching up

01:38:43.400 - 01:38:57.520

on what happened to us in our lives since then. She had four children, and I had three. And she was born in Fort Lauderdale, and then they came back down here for him to practice law.

01:38:57.520 - 01:39:09.680

How did you get from Florida to Sweetwater? I went on the train. Had you ever been to Texas before? No, and neither had anybody in my family,

01:39:09.680 - 01:39:17.480

as far as I know. Tell me, what were your first impressions of Texas when you got off that airplane-- I mean, off that train?

01:39:17.480 - 01:39:32.520

I couldn't say that because it was flat, because Florida's flat. I don't know. I was just so excited to be there.

01:39:32.520 - 01:39:47.640

Did you see all those beautiful hibiscus and palm trees? Didn't see any. When you were on the train, did you meet any of the other girls that were

01:39:47.640 - 01:39:59.320

going to be in your class? No, not until I-- Did you realize that there was going to be a lot of girls? Oh, yes.

01:39:59.320 - 01:40:10.640

I thought there'd be more. But I don't know. Maybe why I was sensible-- I had a sensible amount of clothes that I brought.

01:40:10.640 - 01:40:22.240

And there was one gal that came with six huge suitcases. She had to send all that stuff back home. Where was she from, do you know? I think she was from New York City.

01:40:22.240 - 01:40:38.280

And one of my bay mates was Sammy Chapin, whose father founded the Hudson Motor Company. So she had her own car. When you got out to Avenger Field,

01:40:38.280 - 01:40:50.280

were there already girls in training? Oh, yes. What were your expectations for this particular training? What did you think you would be doing if you passed it?

01:40:50.280 - 01:41:01.760

I just knew I'd be flying. And I didn't care what I had to fly or where I had to go, that I'd be flying. When you got out to the air base,

01:41:01.760 - 01:41:18.840

describe the buildings that you saw on the air base. What was there? Well, there were the dorms, or the bays, which looked like migrant camps to me.

01:41:18.840 - 01:41:37.160

If you went there, that's-- because that's the kind of thing you see here in Florida, the migrant camps. And I remember seeing where Deedee was.

01:41:37.160 - 01:41:45.920

Administration. Administration building there. And at the beginning, that's all I really noticed, and the control tower.

01:41:45.920 - 01:42:00.280

What was the makeup of the personnel who were stationed there, who ran the-- Well, Deedee is the one I remember. How about the instructors or the personnel

01:42:00.280 - 01:42:11.760

who were in charge overall? Major, Major, Major, what was his name? I can't remember him, but-- Urban?

01:42:11.760 - 01:42:23.840

Something like that. So the Army Air Force was in charge overall. Overall, but it was civilians. I mean, our instructors, of course, as you know,

01:42:23.840 - 01:42:36.120

were civilians. And I can only remember one name, and that was my 86th instructor, because he almost flunked me out.

01:42:36.120 - 01:42:50.720

And it was partly my own fault, because he did not shut his mouth from the minute you saw him, blah, blah, blah, blah, and this and that, and do this, do that, do that, do the other.

01:42:50.720 - 01:43:01.840

And he was driving me crazy. So one time when we came down, I said, could you give a little pause occasionally? And I said, you've got me confused.

01:43:01.840 - 01:43:15.720

He shut up completely and wouldn't even tell me what to do, just completely. Did you think he was going to wash you out? But I passed my flight.

01:43:15.720 - 01:43:27.880

Oh, why'd you stop it? OK. OK. How were you assigned to your dorm or your bays?

01:43:27.880 - 01:43:41.000

Alphabetically. Tell me about your bay mates. Oh, I had wonderful bay mates. And only one of our bay washed out, too.

01:43:41.000 - 01:43:55.600

Well, there was Sammy. And then later on, we did have somebody that was put in her place. She was the only one that was out of place alphabetically.

01:43:55.600 - 01:44:09.720

And her name escapes me right now. But she was the one that did all of the illustrations in our yearbook. We had W6 and 7 together in our yearbook.

01:44:09.720 - 01:44:28.000

And she did the illustrations in that. And Babette Demaux-- Babette, interestingly, had gone to private girls' schools since she was about in the seventh grade.

01:44:28.000 - 01:44:45.280

She would not take a group shower. When we would come in at 5 o'clock and have 15 minutes for all of us to take a shower and be in line to go to supper, we'd just shuck our clothes

01:44:45.280 - 01:44:55.720

and just turn the water on and everybody just as fast as you could get, Gretchen. Or she would wait till the lights were out and take her shower.

01:44:55.720 - 01:45:09.480

And one night, we were feeling so stupid. And we decided that we'd have some fun. We knew that Dede was on duty. We checked that out first.

01:45:09.480 - 01:45:31.080

And so we decided that we would all take our clothes off and get up on top of our tall lockers, wrap our heads in towels, sit yoga-like. And when the student would come and check and see no bed,

01:45:31.080 - 01:45:43.960

she would run and get Dede. And then we practiced and practiced, knowing that Dede would say, "What do you think you're doing?" And we were going to say, "We're thinking."

01:45:43.960 - 01:45:52.240

Very seriously. Well, of course, we giggled and giggled and giggled. But we practiced until we thought we had it down straight that we could say, "We're thinking."

01:45:52.240 - 01:46:08.600

Well, we got up there, but Babette kept her pajamas on. Everybody else was up there start naked. So it happened like we said. The student that was checking that night came,

01:46:08.600 - 01:46:20.240

and she went running back to tell Dede that there was nothing on the door that we were night flying, but that we were all gone. So Dede came and turned the lights on,

01:46:20.240 - 01:46:29.840

and she looked up at you and said, "What in the world do you think you're doing?" And we said, "We're thinking." We couldn't stop giggling.

01:46:29.840 - 01:46:37.520

We didn't pull it off at all. [LAUGHTER] And did she laugh? Oh, yes.

01:46:37.520 - 01:46:44.640

She just roared. That's a great story. Dede was still there when you-- she was there till the end, wasn't she?

01:46:44.640 - 01:46:52.240

Oh, yeah. Right. Were all of you in that bay from similar backgrounds? No, definitely not.

01:46:52.240 - 01:46:58.920

No. Or similar religions? I don't know the religion. I don't remember religion ever coming up,

01:46:58.920 - 01:47:07.760

because I don't think I went to church while I was in training. Did we have a chance to? Not much. I didn't even think about it, I guess.

01:47:07.760 - 01:47:22.040

Right. Describe what a typical day was like at Avenger. Well, we either had ground school in the morning and flow in the afternoon, or then we switched over

01:47:22.040 - 01:47:35.560

and did flying in the morning and ground school in the afternoon. And then eventually, we got to the night flying. And we--

01:47:35.560 - 01:47:47.560

Describe-- For a while, we slept outside at night. We'd pull our cots out. We got there in May, from May till November.

01:47:47.560 - 01:47:56.560

And it was hot. And then one night, when somebody was night flying, they came in and there was a rattlesnake coiled up on the steps.

01:47:56.560 - 01:48:10.040

That was the last time we slept outside. What were your meals like? Where did you eat? Well, we had the big mess.

01:48:10.040 - 01:48:21.680

And interestingly, one time they announced that they were going to have buffalo. Couldn't wait to taste the buffalo. Tasted just like the pork, just like the beef,

01:48:21.680 - 01:48:34.480

just like anything else that we'd had. Because it was typical Army food that was cooked in great quantities and no spices or anything in it.

01:48:34.480 - 01:48:50.960

And it was adequate, but it was certainly not anything you would write and ask for the recipe to put in the paper. When you would go from your bay to the flight line

01:48:50.960 - 01:49:05.920

or to the mess hall, how would you go? Would you go together? Well, we usually went together. We marched into dinner, as I recall.

01:49:05.920 - 01:49:20.280

And at the same time that we came in-- was Lieutenant LaRue still there when you were there? Well, Lieutenant LaRue came in at the same time we did. And I don't know whether you know the history of it

01:49:20.280 - 01:49:32.720

or not, but he was out in California. And he got these orders to go to this training school at Sweetwater. But nobody told him it was all women.

01:49:32.720 - 01:49:46.800

But he found out they did not have an obstacle course there. So he came on the train. And he spent his time on the train drafting a great obstacle course,

01:49:46.800 - 01:49:56.880

which he was going to institute as soon as he got there. And it wasn't until he went to the barbershop to have a haircut before he reported to his commanding officer that he found out

01:49:56.880 - 01:50:05.200

it was an all-girls school. Oh. And he'd wanted to go to combat. And here they were sending him to a-- and women at that.

01:50:05.200 - 01:50:20.960

He just-- he liked to have died. Well, he decided that he'd have to make the best of it. And he certainly dropped his idea of the obstacle course. And he decided to make our class the best drill team

01:50:20.960 - 01:50:37.520

in the world. So he gave us extra drills. And we could do all those without cadence and so on. And we were called on every time some VIPs would come.

01:50:37.520 - 01:50:51.200

They would call W7 to put on the marching display for the big wigs that were there. We were out there very often. Wow.

01:50:51.200 - 01:51:04.440

What were your uniforms like? GI coveralls. My first one was size 48. And the crotch was exactly at my ankles.

01:51:04.440 - 01:51:25.240

And the shoulder seam was exactly at my elbows. And so we boiled them. They didn't shrink a bit. And we had to get sailor's palm and pick up this waist

01:51:25.240 - 01:51:46.440

and sew it right under the arms. That gave us four layers of that canvas in the heat of-- to wear. And when each class graduated, we'd get up at daylight

01:51:46.440 - 01:52:00.560

and be there at the equipment place to try to get a smaller size coverall so that we could finally buy-- two months before you graduated, you

01:52:00.560 - 01:52:14.920

had one that you could get into without having to do all that extra sewing. And then we had to buy our own khaki pants and white shirt. I think they issued us those--

01:52:14.920 - 01:52:21.520

what did they call those caps? Overseas caps. Yeah. Issued those.

01:52:21.520 - 01:52:35.560

And so that was our dress uniform, was white shirt and khaki pants. Tex, what was the biggest adjustment you had to make to go through training when you arrived?

01:52:36.560 - 01:52:51.440

I kind of roll with the punches. I don't remember that I had any great adjustment to make, because I had lived in a dorm and lived in a situation where it was all women when I was in college.

01:52:51.440 - 01:53:15.120

And I'd worked so that I was able to get worked so that I knew you had to do what you were told to do. It wasn't that you could just go on off on your own. Right.

01:53:15.120 - 01:53:24.640

While you were there, did Miss Cochran visit? Oh, about three or four times, yeah. Did you ever meet her personally? Yes.

01:53:24.640 - 01:53:39.520

She was in-- she came to the ready room one time when I was there. What was the first airplane you flew at Avenger? PT-19.

01:53:39.520 - 01:53:48.520

And how was that different from the airplanes you had learned? Oh, for heaven's sakes, I'd never flown anything but a Cub. So it was like an airliner.

01:53:48.520 - 01:54:06.240

You don't recall your first instructor. Do you recall anything unusual happening? Yes, I do. Again, God winked at me because we were

01:54:06.240 - 01:54:19.880

doing strange field landings. And I was over-- I had just come in, and he had his notebook out, and we were going over what I had just

01:54:19.880 - 01:54:32.200

done when two Army planes landed on the field. And this Army guy came up and asked my instructor, do you have anybody that has 30 hours? And he checked my record, and he says, she has 31.

01:54:32.200 - 01:54:44.280

He says, come on. I got in the plane, had my check ride, and it was over. And I passed it. Later on, some people washed out because their names

01:54:44.280 - 01:54:57.200

were posted two days ahead of time, and they didn't sleep the whole time. And whole bays washed out with that contagion. Mine was over before I knew it was coming.

01:54:57.200 - 01:55:08.000

And then after that, I don't think we flew-- I flew flat after that because my instructor loved aerobatics. And we were upside down and around.

01:55:08.000 - 01:55:22.240

So that gave me a lot of confidence for the rest of my flying because I knew you could do all sorts of things with the plane. At what point did the one girl in your bay wash out?

01:55:22.240 - 01:55:31.280

It was about the second month. Do you have any idea why she washed out? No. She was just gone.

01:55:31.280 - 01:55:48.080

Her name was Jane NMI Bryan. Then eventually, they moved someone else into her cot. When you finished the primary training, then what aircraft did you fly?

01:55:48.080 - 01:56:05.040

BT-13, the Voltey Vibrator. And one of the stories, whether it's apocryphal or not, was about the Voltey Vibrator. This gal was on a cross country.

01:56:05.040 - 01:56:19.360

And she told her instructor, said, you know, this plane is falling apart, that it's just not going to make it. He says, that's just the Voltey Vibrator.

01:56:19.360 - 01:56:30.360

Well, she took off at Lubbock. And there was a railroad track and a power line at the end of the road. And she got part of the way up, and the engine did quit.

01:56:30.360 - 01:56:43.360

And she was gliding in, which you don't have much glide room in a BT-13, if you remember. And her wheels caught on the railroad track. And the plane sort of fell apart.

01:56:43.360 - 01:56:56.760

And she was all right. She got out. And somebody was running down the railroad track toward her. And the word was that she turned to this person and said,

01:56:56.760 - 01:57:23.520

I told him that god damn son of a bitch wouldn't fly. And I'm not sure whether it was Ellie, Bryant, or not. But somebody in our group fell out of a plane at night because they hadn't fastened their seat belt properly.

01:57:23.520 - 01:57:40.400

Anything unusual happen to you when you were flying the BT? No, except that it was scary, because it did sound like it wasn't going to always go. I remember one time when we were flying the BT

01:57:40.400 - 01:57:56.480

and we were going to Amarillo. And it was hot as it can be out there. And what we used to do is wear bandana and shorts under those coveralls.

01:57:56.480 - 01:58:07.280

And when we got out in the air, we'd unbutton them and drop them down to here so it could be a little bit cooler. And a Blue Northern had blown up.

01:58:07.280 - 01:58:14.700

When we were supposed to-- no, that wouldn't have been the BT-13. Because they didn't have flaps, did they? Did they?

01:58:14.700 - 01:58:29.360

Well, it could have been that. We were supposed to make full flap landing. And it was our first plane with a radio in it. And so when we got closer, the wind had really picked up.

01:58:29.360 - 01:58:45.040

So we were told not to use the full flaps to come in. And of course, we pulled our coveralls back up as we came in. And when we got there, it was so cold

01:58:45.040 - 01:59:03.680

the men were building fires in those oil drums in the hangar. So I remember that particular trip to Amarillo. When you finished the BT course, then what aircraft did you fly? '86.

01:59:03.680 - 01:59:13.640

Oh, I loved that plane. I guess everybody does. Because you can do anything with that one. Did you take some cross-countries in that '86?

01:59:13.640 - 01:59:20.160

Yes. Several of them. Tell me about your most interesting cross-country. Where did you go?

01:59:26.520 - 01:59:36.400

I get mixed up. Well, we went to El Paso. And it was a night one. That was the one I particularly remember.

01:59:36.400 - 01:59:49.880

We did daytime ones, too. But I remember we had to go south heading and over to come across Fort something or other out in the desert there.

01:59:49.880 - 02:00:08.280

I called it the desert. Because there were so few towns that we could use for checkpoints. I get mixed up with ferrying and training.

02:00:08.280 - 02:00:20.040

Thinking back. To your knowledge, what was the difference between the training program you went through and the ones the male cadets went through?

02:00:20.040 - 02:00:29.840

Well, I assumed it was the same thing, except that they did give us quarters on the PT. They didn't make us do push-ups. And they didn't make us do chin-ups.

02:00:29.840 - 02:00:44.000

But we had the other PT even. And I assume they told us it was the same, the flight training and the ground school and everything. So I had no reason to doubt it.

02:00:44.000 - 02:00:52.720

Because I didn't know what the cadets did. So I just took their word for it. When you arrived at Avenger, do you recall taking the oath?

02:00:52.720 - 02:01:01.040

No. Did we? I did. I don't know about you.

02:01:01.040 - 02:01:08.000

What oath did you take? The one that says you'll serve your country. Well, I probably took it. But I don't remember it.

02:01:08.000 - 02:01:20.320

Oh, the cadets. Same one the cadets took. Were you-- what were your expectations as far as being military when you went?

02:01:20.320 - 02:01:36.680

We thought we were going to be put in the military. But I didn't think about it. I was too busy flying and having a good time. But I didn't--

02:01:36.680 - 02:01:40.600

Didn't dwell on it. --dwell on it. Right. When you were in training, were you

02:01:40.600 - 02:01:52.880

aware of what the girls were doing who had already graduated? Not particularly. At that time, they were all going to the Ferry Command.

02:01:52.880 - 02:02:03.440

I think our class was one of the first ones to have assignments other than Ferry Command. Right. So--

02:02:03.440 - 02:02:17.080

When you finished your prescribed course in the AT-6, then what airplane did you fly? Was it the AT-17? It was-- and I can remember sometime the wind was so hard,

02:02:17.080 - 02:02:29.360

blowing so hard, when we came in that they had mechanics out there when we landed to grab the wings because that thing was like a kite. It would take right off again when you landed if somebody

02:02:29.360 - 02:02:38.680

didn't hold it down. Since you were there in the summertime, tell me about the sandstorms. Oh, they were terrific.

02:02:38.680 - 02:02:51.080

And as a matter of fact, on the weekend, sometime we hardly recognized people that we should have known because the sun was so bad and that white gravel that it was paved with that everybody

02:02:51.080 - 02:03:09.600

put zinc oxide on their noses because otherwise your nose was just a raw sore from getting sunburned. And so when you'd see people on the flight line, it had this like a clown mask on.

02:03:09.600 - 02:03:19.240

And then when you saw them on the weekend, hey. So-- Need to change the tapes. I need to go to the bathroom.

02:03:19.240 - 02:03:34.040

Anybody else want to use that? No, I'm like a camel. [AUDIO OUT] OK, when you started flying the AT-17s,

02:03:34.040 - 02:03:44.160

what were those used for? I mean, what was the training on that for? Just for the twin engine. Just so we'd have some twin engine training.

02:03:44.160 - 02:03:57.400

When you flew in that one, did you fly with just the instructor or-- We usually had somebody with us. And we'd fly for a while, and then the other one would fly.

02:03:57.400 - 02:04:06.400

Of all those airplanes that you flew, what was your favorite? Oh, the AT-6. Far and away. While you were in training techs,

02:04:06.400 - 02:04:24.200

did any of the film companies or Movietone News or anything like that come and visit the field? Yes, I think they did. Do you recall them marching for any of that?

02:04:24.200 - 02:04:44.080

I think we probably did one time. Because as I say, our group was really pulled in to do lots of marching. Of all the things that you did at Avenger,

02:04:44.080 - 02:04:54.560

what do you remember the most? What is the most important thing you remember about Avenger Field? Was flying, just that.

02:04:54.560 - 02:05:08.120

I really am hard put to remember anything I learned in grand school. I was just about to ask you about ground school. I know I had to take it all or I could never have graduated.

02:05:08.120 - 02:05:21.640

What was your least favorite thing? Morse code. Oh, that was so stupid, I thought. I had passed it once as a Girl Scout,

02:05:21.640 - 02:05:32.120

so I didn't have any trouble with it. But I thought it was a waste of time. Of course, if I'd been downed in an airplane and trying to communicate, I might not

02:05:32.120 - 02:05:43.440

have thought it was so stupid. Da da, da da, da da, da da. When you were at Avenger, did you have some time off on the weekends?

02:05:43.440 - 02:05:52.000

Some time. Do you recall going into Sweetwater and meeting any of the citizens of Sweetwater? No, I don't.

02:05:52.000 - 02:06:10.840

During that time between phases, did you ever go someplace else? No. Like San Angelo or anything? Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

02:06:10.840 - 02:06:31.160

Yes, we went to Dallas one time. In Ellie Bryant's-- I'd forgotten about that. It was in Ellie Bryant's station wagon. And she drove just about 90 miles an hour,

02:06:31.160 - 02:06:48.000

which you have to do in Texas to get anywhere. And we were driving along when the whole tread came off the tire. Fortunately, she did not put her brakes on.

02:06:48.000 - 02:07:08.160

And it was a retread tire from the-- that's about all you could get during the war. And we went-- of course, it was dry in Dallas. So I've forgotten where we got our dates, but we had dates.

02:07:08.160 - 02:07:26.000

And we went to this club, and we put our bottles underneath the table. And two things happened to me. I had bought a dress because of the coat that went with it.

02:07:26.000 - 02:07:34.280

I didn't care about the dress particularly, but the coat was what I liked. And it was hot, so I put my coat over the back of the seat.

02:07:34.280 - 02:07:48.640

And we stupidly, all of us-- and there were-- it was a long table. All of us left at the same time to dance. And when we came back, there wasn't a bottle of liquor left.

02:07:48.640 - 02:08:06.120

Somebody had stolen them all. And my coat was gone. Never did like that dress after that. After you finished the training in the 17--

02:08:06.120 - 02:08:18.000

oh, let me go back and ask you, were any of the trainees killed while you were in training? Not in our class, no. But any in the other classes while you were there?

02:08:18.000 - 02:08:29.360

Not while I was there, no. When it came close to graduation, were you given choices of assignments? No.

02:08:29.360 - 02:08:36.600

We were just-- For graduation, did any of your family come? No. My brother was in the Navy by that time,

02:08:36.600 - 02:08:47.680

and mother didn't come, no. What was-- describe your graduation. Well, for the first time, we didn't have to do all the marching.

02:08:47.680 - 02:09:07.360

And Jackie was there herself and gave us our wings. And I don't even remember what the speech was, but I do remember that it went on-- it started later than it was supposed to,

02:09:07.360 - 02:09:31.040

and it went on longer than it was supposed to. And there were four of us that had reservations out of Dallas to go home. And we had hired a taxi to take us, split the cost four ways.

02:09:31.040 - 02:09:54.720

And he drove 90 miles an hour. And we turned in just as our plane was taken off. So there we were in Dallas, and our plane was gone. So we went to Love Field to see if we could catch SNAFU.

02:09:54.720 - 02:10:07.000

And we did. Three of us were going in that direction. And we was going out the next day. And it was going to be a seven-hour flight.

02:10:07.000 - 02:10:30.000

It was going to Fort Bragg. And so we knew we better not drink any coffee in the morning. And we went in a DC-3 that was set for parachute. And do you know that in the DC-3, the only john they had

02:10:30.000 - 02:10:47.160

was a hole right in the middle of the floor? We took apples along so that if we got thirsty, we could eat on an apple. And there was a doctor on board, interestingly.

02:10:47.160 - 02:11:05.720

And there were some Navy people on board, too. And he saw the yellow beginning to show in our eyeballs. So he made the guys all stand up and turn their backs. Couldn't go.

02:11:05.720 - 02:11:20.920

The wind was whistling underneath that thing when you sat down. Couldn't let it go to save our lives. We finally got to our place.

02:11:20.920 - 02:11:29.240

And we tumbled down first and got into a Jeep. We said, to the bathroom. They took us to this place. And there were only two stalls.

02:11:29.240 - 02:11:41.440

There were three of us. I got one of the stalls, but one of the girls went in the lavatory. I mean, we were in such pain from that trip.

02:11:41.440 - 02:11:57.120

And then from Fort Bragg, how did you get to Florida? We caught another snafu to Orlando. How did you spend your time during that leave time? Did you still have a boyfriend in Florida?

02:11:57.120 - 02:12:10.880

He was in the Mariana Islands. So I just was with Mother and my friends. And everybody was-- Mother was so proud. Of course, we had no uniform then.

02:12:10.880 - 02:12:30.280

We just had our wings because we graduated in our khakis and white shirts. Because it was a month after I got to Hondo before I got my uniform.

02:12:30.280 - 02:12:42.320

And what did your orders-- where were you to report? That was very interesting. I'd report to Hondo, Texas to fly navigation students on their missions.

02:12:42.320 - 02:12:58.360

And I went on the train. And I got there 1 o'clock in the morning. Nobody knew we were coming. We had had our orders for two weeks.

02:12:58.360 - 02:13:11.160

We got our orders before we left Sweetwater. They didn't inform Hondo that we were coming. So if we came in at all hours of the night, we either had to sleep in the nurses' quarters

02:13:11.160 - 02:13:22.240

where there was-- as long as there were beds-- and then in the hospital until they could clear out a BOQ for us the next day. Were there already girls there?

02:13:22.240 - 02:13:36.120

How many of you-- I think there were eight of us. And we were fortunate, very fortunate, because the CO was delighted to have us.

02:13:36.120 - 02:13:46.960

Some of my classmates, which I didn't find out until going to reunions, were at places that they had to ask to be transferred before they got to fly. Because the guys just--

02:13:46.960 - 02:13:56.560

COs didn't want them. So they dragged their feet. Well, he had us in transition within a week. And they cleared out a BOQ for us.

02:13:56.560 - 02:14:08.360

And we ate, of course, in the bachelor officer's mess. And-- And what was your assignment at Hondo? To fly navigation students on their missions.

02:14:08.360 - 02:14:21.560

What kind of airplanes? It was one that the small airlines were using. And they'd taken all the seats out. And they had made three navigation stations

02:14:21.560 - 02:14:35.160

for students. And that was the first one. And we flew the plane. And the instructor sat in the co-pilot's seat.

02:14:35.160 - 02:14:46.640

And we had the three stations. And our orders were to-- when the student plotted the course out, we were to fly according to his directions

02:14:46.640 - 02:15:02.200

until the instructor stopped it if it was bad. And sometimes he'd let you get kind of low to the ground before he'd abort the orders. Did you have to take some transition training--

02:15:02.200 - 02:15:04.960

Yes. Yeah. --to fly that? Mm-hmm.

02:15:04.960 - 02:15:20.560

OK. Go ahead. The guy in charge of transition looked just like John Carradine. So behind his back, we called him John Carradine.

02:15:20.560 - 02:15:31.320

And my husband was at that base for four years. So he knew everybody pretty well. And in later years, we tried to remember that guy's name. And all we could think of was John Carradine.

02:15:31.320 - 02:15:49.960

We never did remember what his name was. One time, Robbie Grace was in that group. And she was from South Carolina. And one time, John Carradine had called--

02:15:49.960 - 02:15:56.920

had sent for her. And she went in. And she says, did you want me, Colonel? And he says, ah!

02:15:56.920 - 02:16:12.480

Don't ever say that to me again. I'm scared to death. Of course I want you, he said. But we, as I say, we went right to work and kept busy.

02:16:12.480 - 02:16:20.000

And we-- Did you fly the same three students every time-- Oh, no. Mm-mm.

02:16:20.000 - 02:16:27.520

--you would train? Yeah. I mean, the instructor would have a number of students. So you just had three.

02:16:27.520 - 02:16:36.640

And then you'd have another three. And I was taking transition in the C-60 when I was transferred-- this was later on--

02:16:36.640 - 02:16:55.160

when I was transferred to Wilmington. One of my bay mates was Mary Canavan. She was Mary Coon then. And here's Mary Coon while we were in training.

02:16:55.160 - 02:17:08.680

And then she got married between-- on her vacation, her leave. And beautiful Irish gal. She later became Chief Justice of the Supreme Court

02:17:08.680 - 02:17:24.720

in New Mexico. And at first meal that we ate in the bachelor officers' mess, we all went in and sat at the same table, of course, because we didn't know anybody.

02:17:24.720 - 02:17:38.080

And my husband had been dating some of the nurses. And so he went to this nurse and he said, hey, could you get me a date with that cute Irish gal? I was married.

02:17:38.080 - 02:17:45.480

And she said, well, I can try. But she said she's married. He said, well, what about the one next to her? That was me.

02:17:45.480 - 02:17:58.400

[LAUGHTER] And what was this young man doing at home? He was a navigation instructor. But I never did get to fly any of his class.

02:17:58.400 - 02:18:14.000

I don't know why, just the luck of the draw, I guess. And where would you go on a date in Hondo? We stayed-- we would be the only ones at the officers' club every night, because neither one of us had a car.

02:18:14.000 - 02:18:30.000

And we danced 1,000 miles to begin the beguine. And what a beautiful morning. And Carlos was the bartender there. And when they had a party-- of course,

02:18:30.000 - 02:18:42.080

everybody had their own bottle there at that time. I don't know what they do now, but we had to have our own bottles there. They'd be lined up four or five deep at the bar.

02:18:42.080 - 02:18:55.600

And John, which my husband-to-be, would say, hey, Carlos, dos Presbiterianos. And over everybody's head would come out. We were drinking Presbiterians at the time,

02:18:55.600 - 02:19:12.520

which was ginger ale and bourbon. And then we would walk into Hondo. And there was a Mexican restaurant there. And it was run by a woman that was as big as this chair,

02:19:12.520 - 02:19:18.960

Mexican woman. And John called her Maria. I don't know what her name really was, but he always said Maria.

02:19:18.960 - 02:19:28.120

And he would go in there, and he'd say, dos bolos chilos, Maria. And she'd say, oh. And she would bring us a serving dish of chili.

02:19:28.120 - 02:19:40.680

Other people would get a regular bowl of chili. Because he kidded with her, we would get-- and then one of the navigators did have a car. He was from Texas.

02:19:40.680 - 02:19:54.800

He went with us from Texas, and we used to go out with them. But when we ate in the dining room at the base, they would always bring your steaks out for you to see before they cooked them.

02:19:54.800 - 02:20:05.760

And they'd be this big. And John and I would ask for ours to be done rare. And both these Texans-- oh, well done. Well done.

02:20:05.760 - 02:20:15.720

Well, they'd bring them back. And theirs would be this big. And ours would still be hanging off the platter. [LAUGHTER]

02:20:15.720 - 02:20:22.680

And at one point, then, you got orders to go to Wilmington? Delaware. Delaware. Do you know why they transferred you?

02:20:22.680 - 02:20:30.160

No, I don't. I have no idea. They only transferred two of us, and then they put some other people in there.

02:20:30.160 - 02:20:43.480

Mary and I were sent to Wilmington. When you transferred to Wilmington, what did that do to your romantic-- Oh, it did-- it just heated it up.

02:20:43.480 - 02:20:59.880

[LAUGHTER] But it really took some creative thinking for me to-- when I was preparing to let John know, and for him to get to do a proficiency flight so we

02:20:59.880 - 02:21:18.600

can get together, like we did in Dallas one time, and in Philadelphia another time. And-- When you got to Wilmington, were there already WASPs there?

02:21:18.600 - 02:21:27.920

Oh, lots of them. That was one of the original places. The only thing is you never got to know anybody there, because I never spent--

02:21:27.920 - 02:21:34.800

I don't think more than twice did I spend two nights in Wilmington. We'd get back-- I mean, get there.

02:21:34.800 - 02:21:46.120

And soon as we checked in, they'd give us an assignment to go someplace else. They were really moving planes around at that time. What were you primarily flying?

02:21:46.120 - 02:21:59.040

Mostly PT-19s. We would go to the factory in Hagerstown and deliver them all over the country. And deliver them to what?

02:21:59.040 - 02:22:04.920

Air bases. Training bases? Training bases. When you would go on these ferrying trips,

02:22:04.920 - 02:22:15.200

would it be just WASPs? Yes. Never had anybody else with WASPs. Anything unusual happen on any of your trips?

02:22:15.200 - 02:22:22.240

Mm-hmm. [LAUGHTER] OK. The worst trip I ever had, I guess.

02:22:22.240 - 02:22:37.920

It was after I had turned my resignation in, so I know it was probably retaliation. But this other gal, it was her first flight, so it couldn't have been retaliation against her.

02:22:37.920 - 02:22:57.120

We were sent to pick up two cubs in South Carolina-- starts with a W. Do you remember it? For salvage, and take them to Rome. They were going to pick up 1,500 of these cubs

02:22:57.120 - 02:23:17.600

and take them to Rome and try to make 500 out of them. Well, when we got to South Carolina and told them we were to pick up these cubs-- and it had the number of the plane on it and everything.

02:23:17.600 - 02:23:32.720

We were always taken to the CO, by the way. Anytime we landed anywhere, we didn't have to deal with the-- because we were so unusual, people wanted-- they wanted to see us and meet us and find out

02:23:32.720 - 02:23:43.840

what we were all about. And he just started to laugh. He was on the second floor, so he said, look out there. And there must have been 15 acres of cubs.

02:23:43.840 - 02:23:54.660

Some of them had vines growing over them. He said, three more wars would be over before we found those two planes. So he says, I'll tell you what, we'll just get a Jeep

02:23:54.660 - 02:24:06.360

and go out there and see if we can find two that'll fly. So we went out. We tried some that we couldn't get started. So finally we got two that didn't look too bad

02:24:06.360 - 02:24:23.600

and could fly. So we took off. And every time we landed, something fell off. And so finally, I had them take my window--

02:24:23.600 - 02:24:35.160

the top part of the cub, you could latch the window up to get in and so on. And that fell off every time. We would be at a B-25 base, and they'd never seen a cub before.

02:24:35.160 - 02:24:52.960

All they had was bailing wire to put the part back on. So I had them take that off and put it in the back seat. And we were going from Fort Bragg to someplace in Virginia.

02:24:52.960 - 02:25:11.960

And we'd already had trouble at Fort Bragg. We had read the material about the condition of the base. And we were not supposed to land at the main base. We were supposed to land at auxiliary field.

02:25:11.960 - 02:25:20.640

Well, we got to the auxiliary-- we found the auxiliary field, all right. But they were practicing short field landings there, and they had these ropes across.

02:25:20.640 - 02:25:31.560

Well, this gal had never flown a cub in her life. Well, I knew how to slip a cub, so I went and slipped and landed. Well, she made about six passes, and she

02:25:31.560 - 02:25:43.440

knew she was going to catch on one of those things. So she finally went over and landed at the main base. My orders had been, since I had flown on other missions-- and this was her first mission--

02:25:43.440 - 02:25:53.680

I was to let her to do all the planning and the leading until she got in trouble, and then I was to take over. But she was supposed to do it, and she was doing a good job up to there.

02:25:53.680 - 02:26:10.520

And so I took a jeep to go over to the main building to find her, and she was in the CO's office. And he was reaming her out for landing, because we had no radio, you see.

02:26:10.520 - 02:26:26.640

Well, that was one time it was an advantage not to be in the Army, because I spoke up and spoke back to him. He ended up taking us for lunch at the officer's club. Well, then we took off, and that was

02:26:26.640 - 02:26:42.640

where I had him stow my window there, because it was in May, I think it was. And so we were flying along, and my map blew out the window. I stupidly had it in my lap.

02:26:42.640 - 02:26:50.320

Well, I thought, she's doing a good job. I just relaxed. Well, after a while, she flew around behind me to indicate she was lost.

02:26:50.320 - 02:27:03.240

So I flew behind her, and then she flew behind me. So I had to take over at that point. Well, I had the maps on each side, so I thought, well, no problem.

02:27:03.240 - 02:27:13.720

So I got out the map to the east, because it felt to me like we were east. Found a railroad. Hey, all we have to do is to look

02:27:13.720 - 02:27:26.000

at the end of the station. Do you know that they had taken all the names off the railroad stations, even the ones on top and on the side? We found two stations, and neither one

02:27:26.000 - 02:27:35.880

I've had a name for. Well, by this time, I didn't know where we were. And still looking all over this map, nothing seemed familiar at all.

02:27:35.880 - 02:27:47.960

And finally, it was late in the afternoon, and the cubs had it. Did you ever fly a cub? The gas tank, it was getting lower and lower, that bob there.

02:27:47.960 - 02:27:58.320

So I looked around, and I found a field that looked fairly flat and decided we were just going to have to land. That's all there was to it. So we went over it a couple of times and landed.

02:27:58.320 - 02:28:14.400

This farmer came running up, and I said, where are we? He said, Powlesville. I said, Powlesville what? He said, North Carolina.

02:28:14.400 - 02:28:27.960

We were farther from Fort Bragg where we landed then than we would have been if we had gotten to our destination in Virginia. Because when I lost the map, we were already

02:28:27.960 - 02:28:42.000

in the middle of this map. And I kept looking here for my clues, and it was over here. Well, they only had one phone in Powlesville. It was in the bar.

02:28:42.000 - 02:28:56.040

So we went to their phone and called back to Wilmington. So they said, well, for us to spend the night in a hotel. And they would send somebody from Norfolk to pick up the planes, because we weren't

02:28:56.040 - 02:29:04.400

allowed to take them off. And that if anybody asked us any questions, we would say no comment. This was wartime.

02:29:04.400 - 02:29:11.200

No comment. We weren't to tell them where we were from or where we were going or anything. So we went out.

02:29:11.200 - 02:29:23.840

They didn't have a hotel in Powlesville, so we had to go to Ahoskie. So we went to Ahoskie. And we were having dinner when the Ahoskie Journal's editor

02:29:23.840 - 02:29:31.880

came in-- editor and full reporter and everything else, because it was just a little weekly-- came in to interview us.

02:29:31.880 - 02:29:44.040

And we told him we couldn't tell him anything. But he just stuttered. And he said, where did you start from? No comment.

02:29:44.040 - 02:29:47.400

Where were you going? No comment. What kind of plane? And so on.

02:29:47.400 - 02:29:54.320

He kept it. Well, finally, I couldn't take it any longer. And I says, none of your damn business. Well, I didn't mean to stutter, but I'd

02:29:54.320 - 02:30:05.240

listen to him to-- you know, how you can pick it up. [LAUGHS] So anyhow, the next day, they came and picked up the planes and took us over to Norfolk.

02:30:05.240 - 02:30:14.560

And then there, the CO told us he would not release our planes with us. He said, nobody should fly those planes. He'd gone out and looked at them.

02:30:14.560 - 02:30:21.920

No way. Well, that's when we put on the tears and told him we were already in trouble and so on and so on and so forth.

02:30:21.920 - 02:30:32.360

So he said, well, I'll let somebody else sign, but I won't sign. So we took off, and we had to go back to Wilmington. And then the rest of the trip was--

02:30:32.360 - 02:30:45.400

well, those planes got practically no mileage at all because they were so old. And we went on to West Point, and the nicest thing happened to us.

02:30:45.400 - 02:30:58.120

It rained, and we got to stay there for four days. And we had a wonderful time in the ready room there at West Point. Did you know what the Air Force was using those cubs for?

02:30:58.120 - 02:31:08.160

Reconnaissance. Ah. While you were at Wilmington, did you get temporary orders to go someplace else?

02:31:08.160 - 02:31:16.360

No. Did you not go to instrument school? No. Wait a minute.

02:31:16.360 - 02:31:24.960

I took instruments there at Wilmington. OK. I guess that's what I saw on your questionnaire. I took it at Wilmington.

02:31:24.960 - 02:31:39.720

Of course. Because when we were-- I had a terrible time trying to have confidence in my instruments.

02:31:39.720 - 02:31:50.040

And I remember when I was flying, it was a fairly congested area, too, when the instructor pulled that curtain. I kept saying, you know, those instruments are wrong.

02:31:50.040 - 02:32:07.480

I was in a tight turn, even though I had already done the link bit there. While you were at Wilmington, how was your social life progressing?

02:32:07.480 - 02:32:22.240

Well, I was keeping in touch with John. And then the only time there that I had any time off, I got time off for a weekend. And we didn't want to announce our engagement

02:32:22.240 - 02:32:36.760

until we both had met-- Parents? --parents. And so his father was on the State Welfare

02:32:36.760 - 02:32:47.800

Board in New York State. And as such, he had to go to New York City once a month to have a meeting. And sometimes his mother went with his father,

02:32:47.800 - 02:33:00.160

and they stayed with friends of theirs there. So it ranged that if I could get off the weekend, they were coming. Daisy would come with Sabine, too.

02:33:00.160 - 02:33:12.600

And in the meantime, I had met a friend of John's sister in Wilmington. We went out for dinner, and we were going to a movie. But we stayed at the dinner table

02:33:12.600 - 02:33:30.040

till 1 o'clock talking at this restaurant. And she had told me that I would love John's mother. She was quite a lady, and that not to let his father scare me, because he was kind of gruff.

02:33:30.040 - 02:33:40.480

So that's what I was looking forward to seeing. But John was going to take some hour and hour time and meet me there. Well, I went to Philadelphia and spent the night with my aunt,

02:33:40.480 - 02:34:02.520

and was taking the train up to New York. And John called me, and he couldn't come. And his mother and father were already on the train. So I had to go by myself to meet my prospective in-laws

02:34:02.520 - 02:34:11.880

at the home of their friends. So I went. And while I was at my aunt's, I got my period, and I had terrible cramps.

02:34:11.880 - 02:34:23.680

So she gave me a whiskey sour to relax me. And then I thought, oh my gosh, I don't know whether John's parents drink or not. I knew he did, but I didn't know whether they did.

02:34:23.680 - 02:34:37.400

So on the train going to New York, I ate one of those awful cheese sandwiches without any mustard or anything else on it. And I got there before the Meachams got there.

02:34:37.400 - 02:34:52.080

And their host, the first thing they did was to offer me a drink. So I had a very nice weekend with them. And they played a lot of bridge, and we played cut in.

02:34:52.080 - 02:35:08.720

I'd play some time, and they'd play it. And when we left, when it was time for me to leave, they came down in the elevator with me and put me in the taxi. And both of them kissed me, and I was thrilled with that.

02:35:08.720 - 02:35:24.080

And then when I got back to the field in Wilmington and called John, he had already gotten a telegram from them. And I have that in my safe deposit box, which said, had wonderful weekend with your lovely Tex.

02:35:24.080 - 02:35:37.360

We want her. Can you get off to a better start with in-laws than that? And then another weekend, my mother came up to see her sister in Philadelphia.

02:35:37.360 - 02:35:53.120

And John flew in, and I got time off and met him there so that he could meet my mother. And the rest of the time, you were stationed in Wilmington? Yes.

02:35:53.120 - 02:36:05.800

When were you notified that the Watts were going to be disbanded? Were you still in at that point? I resigned in June.

02:36:05.800 - 02:36:20.320

What did you have to go through in order to resign? Write a letter of resignation. That was what was so foolish about not putting us in the Army, spending all that money on us.

02:36:20.320 - 02:36:32.040

But they didn't give us any money or any health benefits or anything. But you could resign. My husband had been four years as a navigation instructor

02:36:32.040 - 02:36:54.240

and constantly asking to be released for combat. And then it wasn't until in May that he was put with a combat unit. And I was 25, and he was 28.

02:36:54.240 - 02:37:08.800

And we wanted to start a family before he went overseas. And we figured that a weekend might not do it. So I resigned. It took a month, or two months, because our daughter was born

02:37:08.800 - 02:37:25.200

11 months after we were married. When you resigned, did any of the hierarchy in the Watts or any of the Watts that you were stationed with, was there any resentment about that?

02:37:25.200 - 02:37:39.480

Well, as I say, I got sent on that Cub trip. Right. So I figured that nobody said anything. When you were at Wilmington, who did you report directly to?

02:37:39.480 - 02:37:59.040

Was it to a WAF or to an Army person? I don't really remember. They were there in the office, and I reported. Did you ever feel any resentment from any of the WASP or WAFs

02:37:59.040 - 02:38:04.920

who were in charge? No. No. I didn't feel any.

02:38:04.920 - 02:38:15.800

While you were at Wilmington, did you ever meet Nancy Love? No. Never saw her. OK.

02:38:15.800 - 02:38:30.040

When you resigned, tell me about your wedding. Well, we were married in Winter Garden, and of course, it was in wartime. And most of my friends were away.

02:38:30.040 - 02:38:46.080

Some of their wives were at home. And one of John's friends was stationed in Orlando. So he asked him to come and be in the wedding, and now John's mother and father were coming down from New York.

02:38:46.080 - 02:39:06.320

And John's father had osteomyelitis, which is a disease of the bone. And he'd had that for years and had had so many operations that between here, his shoulder, and his elbow

02:39:06.320 - 02:39:19.080

was nothing but bone and scar tissue. And they were coming down a week before the wedding because there were several parties that we wanted them to go to.

02:39:19.080 - 02:39:31.360

And they were on their way. Dad knew that his arm was acting up, but he didn't tell Mother Meacham. And he even rigged up a strap to help

02:39:31.360 - 02:39:47.280

him carry the hand luggage. And they even got in the taxi going to the train when they went around a curve, and she felt his face, and he was burning up with fever.

02:39:47.280 - 02:39:58.720

So they went to the hospital instead, and he had to have another operation. So they didn't get to come to the wedding. And his friend got transferred out the day before our wedding.

02:39:58.720 - 02:40:13.920

He had absolutely nobody there on his side. Fortunately, I had lots of relatives and lots of friends. We filled up the church. I was married at the First Baptist Church.

02:40:13.920 - 02:40:35.640

I have a wedding album down there. And I had a maid of honor and one bridesmaid. And my brother was overseas in the Navy, and I had so many uncles on both sides, all of whom I adored.

02:40:35.640 - 02:40:46.600

And I didn't dare ask one of them to walk down with me because the others would be hurt. So I said, hmm, nothing to it. I can walk down by myself.

02:40:46.600 - 02:41:01.120

And so we had it all arranged through the gal that was putting on the wedding. And Mother would be taken down to her place, and then I would come by myself and then stop and pick up

02:41:01.120 - 02:41:11.960

Mother, and we would go up. And then Mother would give me away, and the best man would escort her back down, and then the rest of the wedding.

02:41:11.960 - 02:41:21.880

Well, I started out confident, but I don't know why I had any flowers left. I got to shaking so before I got down to where Mother picked me up.

02:41:21.880 - 02:41:35.240

And the father of my first boyfriend was there, and he says, why didn't you tell me I'd walk down with you? But it was a beautiful wedding, and we

02:41:35.240 - 02:41:43.600

had the reception at my very-- just a family reception at my home. And-- Was John in his uniform?

02:41:43.600 - 02:41:52.240

Yes. And we were married at 9 o'clock at night, because it was on the 14th of July, and the church was not air conditioned.

02:41:52.240 - 02:42:04.520

Of course, they hadn't even invented air conditioning. '44 had it. And he waited till the wedding march started before he even put his blouse on,

02:42:04.520 - 02:42:21.920

and still it had a spot in it from the heat. What was your dress like? Beautiful. And then after the wedding, did you have a reception?

02:42:21.920 - 02:42:37.680

At our house, and it was, as I say, just a family one. Then where did you go on your honeymoon? Well, it was during wartime, and John had a car by that time, but that was in Texas.

02:42:37.680 - 02:42:51.680

And so a friend of ours lent us his car. And of course, gasoline very heavily rationed, but he was a farmer, or at least he had a farm. And so we had plenty of gas.

02:42:51.680 - 02:43:08.060

And we had made a reservation at the-- I've just torn it down-- hotel in Orlando. And then we were planning to go over to Daytona Beach.

02:43:08.060 - 02:43:19.060

Well, when mother and dad couldn't make it-- and dad had had so many of those operations that they weren't sure each time whether he was going to pull through or not.

02:43:19.060 - 02:43:28.820

So we changed our plans, and we went to Orlando for the one night, and then we were taking the train up to Syracuse. We had to cancel out in New Orleans.

02:43:28.820 - 02:43:43.660

We were going to New Orleans on our way out to Hondo. And so we spent the night in Orlando, and then the next day we took the train and went to Syracuse. And so we spent our honeymoon with our idols.

02:43:43.660 - 02:43:49.760

Did you stay with his parents? Yes. Well, with his mother. His father was still in the hospital,

02:43:49.760 - 02:43:58.260

but he came back the day before we left, got out of the hospital. So we felt a whole lot better, and I have never regretted giving up New Orleans for that,

02:43:58.260 - 02:44:10.540

because he could have gone. And that was-- and also, that might have been the last chance, if he had gone overseas, that he might have seen his family.

02:44:10.540 - 02:44:24.100

OK. Got to change the tape. Moving along to Hondo from your honeymoon, where did you live? We had a bedroom with kitchen privileges.

02:44:24.100 - 02:44:42.980

We lived in Sabanal, which is about 20 miles away. And that first night, we picked up some groceries, and we were making, I think, tuna fish salad or something. And as I say, we had kitchen privileges,

02:44:42.980 - 02:44:56.380

so we were in there working together. And this LA lady kept saying, oh, that's so sweet. He's helping her. And then she started putting things in our salad.

02:44:56.380 - 02:45:06.860

We weren't sure what that was going to taste like. I mean, we were putting celery and green pepper and onions and stuff. She put some peas in or something like that.

02:45:06.860 - 02:45:30.460

So we had quite a nice time with her. She was so particular, though, and this was unbelievable. She had some cast iron cookware. And when you used it, instead of letting it drain and dry,

02:45:30.460 - 02:45:41.540

she had a rack out on the porch so that the sun would hit it. And we had to put it there. Of course, the dust also hit it. We had to wipe them out before we could use them.

02:45:41.540 - 02:46:08.140

And so John was not sent overseas. Well, see, he was put in-- let's see-- about five months after that, he was transferred to a B-29 unit.

02:46:08.140 - 02:46:29.660

In the meantime, then I had gotten pregnant. It must have been about seven months, seven or eight months after, because I had already seen about six obstetricians. And John was transferred to California

02:46:29.660 - 02:46:41.580

to be with this B-29. And the obstetrician said to me, do you have any place you can go and be still? Because she said, I know what happens when they get

02:46:41.580 - 02:46:52.700

into that, they're going to be transferred. And he was, about every three weeks, they were moved some other place. So I went back up to Winter Garden to Mother's

02:46:52.700 - 02:47:09.060

and had the baby up there. And then when she was six weeks old, he came to get us. And I had the car, so we drove out to Nebraska first. And then we were in South Dakota and back in Nebraska.

02:47:09.820 - 02:47:26.380

And it was very nerve-wracking, because every night, he had to have a pass to come home to spend the night. And when he left in the morning, I never knew whether he was going to be gone or not.

02:47:26.380 - 02:47:40.580

His footlocker had already gone to Okinawa. And a lot of the girls gave up. But I figured that every day I had was just one more day that I wouldn't have if I went home.

02:47:40.580 - 02:47:59.060

So I stuck it out. And fortunately, VE and VJ Day came. And he had plenty of points, because he had volunteered in February of '41 to get his year over.

02:47:59.060 - 02:48:15.700

Got out at five. So when he became eligible to get out of the Air Force-- He put his application in the first day, could. And the poor guy that was in charge of that unit

02:48:15.700 - 02:48:28.060

wanted so badly to take it overseas. And I guess it did eventually go overseas, but intact, because he hadn't had overseas duty yet, which meant he couldn't have any promotions and so on.

02:48:28.060 - 02:48:38.500

And John wasn't even interested in staying in the reserves. He just wanted to get out and get on with life. INTERVIEWER: So then where did you move? We moved to Mammalius, New York.

02:48:38.500 - 02:48:50.540

He had a good job to go back to. And at that point, I had never seen snow. Or I would have said, honey, there are ditch digging jobs in Florida.

02:48:50.540 - 02:49:04.900

And I'm sure we can learn to live on a ditch digger's salary. We don't have to come up here in this-- I never did, just to the cold weather up there. The main thing was there's no sunshine in Syracuse, none.

02:49:04.900 - 02:49:19.660

We had a rector that came to us from New Mexico. And he had developed a skin condition that was aggravated by the sun. So he did a research, and he found out

02:49:19.660 - 02:49:31.340

that Syracuse and Seattle were the two places in the United States with the least amount of sunshine. But bless his heart, my husband never complained about the electric bill.

02:49:31.340 - 02:49:45.340

And I got up every morning, and I turned every light and lamp on in the house and left them on all day long. But Syracuse, there's Lake Erie here, and Lake Ontario here, and Syracuse here.

02:49:45.340 - 02:49:58.900

And it got both snow-- Buffalo has quite a reputation for snow. They have almost 100 inches more in Syracuse. When the snow comes across Lake Erie,

02:49:58.900 - 02:50:10.820

it drops the snow on Buffalo. I mean, when it comes up the lake, it drops the snow on. When it comes across, it doesn't start dropping till Rochester, and then it really drops when it gets to Syracuse.

02:50:10.820 - 02:50:24.980

So what was his job in Syracuse? He was a purchasing agent for a gray iron foundry. And he was very happy with it. It was a good job, and the company went broke.

02:50:24.980 - 02:50:38.500

Well, he had always enjoyed his teaching in navigation. And I knew he was interested in teaching. And I said, well, look, he tried life insurance, but he was very British.

02:50:38.500 - 02:50:46.420

His mother was British. He would never interrupt anybody. There's lots of things my husband could have said that he never got said, because he would never

02:50:46.420 - 02:51:02.140

interrupt anybody. And so we figured it out. And so he went to school and got his master's in teaching. And taught math in high school from then on out,

02:51:02.140 - 02:51:08.980

and was very happy with it. In Syracuse? Outside of Syracuse. He was in a suburb of Syracuse.

02:51:08.980 - 02:51:19.220

And then at some point, did you have other children? Yes. Three years to the day after the first child was born, my second one was.

02:51:19.220 - 02:51:29.620

I was so mad at the doctor. I told him, I said, don't let her come on the 15th of June. Your birthday's the only thing you ever have of your very own.

02:51:29.620 - 02:51:37.860

And he told me, he says, oh, I've got a big supply of rubber stoppers. Well, he didn't get a chance to use them, because I was only in labor for an hour and a half

02:51:37.860 - 02:51:47.220

with the second one. Almost didn't make it to the hospital. And then three and a half years later, we had another one. Had the three daughters.

02:51:47.220 - 02:51:59.100

They are up there. Were those daughters ever able to enjoy their grandmother? Oh, yes. Very much so.

02:51:59.100 - 02:52:09.660

As she continued to work, she was so angry when they made her retire at 72. She thought she would just die on the vine. Well, six months after she retired, she says, honey,

02:52:09.660 - 02:52:21.700

I don't know when I had time to work. She went so much. And mother got a schoolteacher to take her place in the summertime.

02:52:21.700 - 02:52:39.740

She was secretary for the health department in Winter Garden. And she'd get a schoolteacher to take over for her in the summertime, and she'd spend July and August with us. And so mother helped me get my master's degree.

02:52:39.740 - 02:52:50.380

I had stayed home. I stayed home for 13 years until my youngest went to kindergarten. And then I was ready to get out, because I needed to breathe.

02:52:50.380 - 02:53:02.460

And so I went to Syracuse University and got my master's degree in library science. And I was a high school librarian. In the same high school as your husband?

02:53:02.460 - 02:53:13.300

No. And as a matter of fact, not where the kids were. My husband had been on the school board where we were, so he wouldn't even apply there.

02:53:13.300 - 02:53:25.300

We didn't want to be in the school where our children were, because that could create problems. It really can. And so he taught on the west side of town,

02:53:25.300 - 02:53:36.580

and I taught on the east side of town. Texas, as your children were growing up, were you involved in their activities? Oh, my lord, yes.

02:53:36.580 - 02:53:54.860

Fortunately, my husband sang. I cannot carry a tune in a bucket. If whatever you sing, I sing, flat or anything else. And all three of the girls inherited the singing voices.

02:53:54.860 - 02:54:10.580

And they all three made the advanced-- the select singing groups, the Swing 16. And they were in concerts all around. We never missed a concert.

02:54:10.580 - 02:54:29.260

And the two youngest girls were very involved in synchronized swimming. And we went to all of their meets. And one was very active in gymnastics,

02:54:29.260 - 02:54:41.780

so they were the gymnastic meets. And so they were involved. Right. How important do you think it is for parents

02:54:41.780 - 02:54:52.100

to be involved with their children? 100% they should be. My youngest daughter's best friend lived just about half a block from us,

02:54:52.100 - 02:55:04.980

and she was in the Swing 16. We had to always take her. Her parents never came to anything. As a consequence, she eloped.

02:55:04.980 - 02:55:21.660

And she didn't finish college, because they insisted that she only go to a local college so she could babysit her little brother. And as I say, they never supported her at all.

02:55:21.660 - 02:55:41.660

And you could see a whole difference in her life. No, I think that makes all the difference in their lives, because they are all happily married, and they're the same as the first one.

02:55:41.660 - 02:55:51.540

Tell me now about your grandchildren. Oh, boy. Now you want me to talk. My oldest granddaughter over there

02:55:51.540 - 02:56:10.980

is the bride in the odd position, lives in Dallas, married a native from Dallas. They were home for Easter. And then 18 months later, she had a little brother.

02:56:10.980 - 02:56:28.300

And he is in Washington, DC, in what is the other place? Alexandria. And at the moment, he has just been downsized out of his job. He's an engineer.

02:56:28.300 - 02:56:45.260

And that's going to be awful hard. He was with them for four years, I guess. And he bought a condo. I couldn't believe it.

02:56:45.260 - 02:56:59.900

Right out of college, he got this job at $45,000 a year. And he bought a four-bedroom condo in Alexandria now, in Virginia. But he had a purpose.

02:56:59.900 - 02:57:08.780

He was a very smart guy. He rented out the other three bedrooms. And it doesn't cost him a cent. It pays his mortgage.

02:57:08.780 - 02:57:20.300

So at least he might have a house. He might not have anything to eat without a job. But he's looking. And then three years later, Ryan came along.

02:57:20.300 - 02:57:34.580

And Ryan loves this area. And he bought a house about six blocks from his parents. He's not married. And he's finding out that it's real expensive to have a home.

02:57:34.580 - 02:57:50.940

So he's rented out his two bedrooms, extra bedrooms. And he's the one that, when I was moving from Mount Dora, I asked him if he'd like to come and take a look and see if I had anything he wanted.

02:57:50.940 - 02:58:02.020

And he came. But he said, Granny, I'll take anything you don't want. So I didn't have to have a garage sale or anything. I just gave him the extra stuff.

02:58:02.020 - 02:58:13.020

And so when I had stuff moved up, I had my stuff put in the back and his stuff. And then we put it in storage because he was still working on his house at that time.

02:58:13.020 - 02:58:26.660

And then my youngest daughter married a Frenchman. And she has a son. And he is so bright. They lived in a small town in the Loire Valley.

02:58:26.660 - 02:58:40.540

And they had a first, second grade and a third, fourth grade. And so he finished the first, second grade the first year. So they put him in the third, fourth. And he finished that in a year.

02:58:40.540 - 02:58:51.820

But it was not good for him because when he got into junior high, he was so much younger that he had a hard time for a while socially fitting in because he was much too young.

02:58:51.820 - 02:59:08.980

But he took one year of college. And he never did like school. So right now, he's working in the Alps in the wintertime at a ski resort.

02:59:08.980 - 02:59:22.020

And his younger sister is graduating from Oberlin here in the States this May. She applied to six-- she took the SATs over there.

02:59:22.020 - 02:59:34.780

And she applied to six colleges and got accepted to all of them. And since she couldn't be over here to look at them, I said, why did you choose Oberlin? She says, Granny, they gave me the best scholarship.

02:59:34.780 - 02:59:49.660

But she thinks they made Oberlin for her. She's just been so happy there. But she's applied for the Peace Corps. So I don't know what--

02:59:49.660 - 02:59:59.860

Are you able now to have family reunions? What's Christmas like now? Well, Christmas is-- my middle daughter is the one that lives here.

02:59:59.860 - 03:00:13.140

And this year, Sarah didn't get to come home because it was their year to have Christmas with his family. She'll be here next year. And the boys were both there.

03:00:13.140 - 03:00:27.380

And after Melissa moved to France, we didn't have whole family reunions. And I spent time with my daughter and son-in-law up in Buffalo.

03:00:27.380 - 03:00:39.340

They have no children. She was 42 when they got married. And it was first marriage for both of them. How do you spend your time now, Tex?

03:00:39.340 - 03:00:53.700

Oh, my gosh. Is that having the Red Hat Society? I do aerobics Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and swim aerobics Tuesday and Thursday, and Tai Chi Friday.

03:00:53.700 - 03:01:10.700

I play duplicate bridge Monday night. And I'm in charge of setting up the boards. And I play progressive bridge on Wednesday night. And I go to all of the field trips that they have from here.

03:01:10.700 - 03:01:20.300

They usually have two a month. But this month, with Older American Month, they've got so many things going on here on the campus that they're only having one field trip.

03:01:20.300 - 03:01:41.220

And I'm not going to be able to take that, because I'll be in Oberlin at my granddaughter's graduation. I go to the debtor's away. Do you have time to sit in church?

03:01:41.220 - 03:02:05.220

I go to church in Oakland Park. I have since become an Episcopalian. My husband was a-- well, he's a lateral descendant of John Donne, the poet, who was a priest in 1620.

03:02:05.220 - 03:02:15.100

His mother was a Donne. And so they've been Episcopalians all along. And I knew I'd never make a Baptist out of him. And if we were going to go to the same church--

03:02:15.100 - 03:02:27.020

and it took about three years. I went to confirmation classes for a long time before I could quite take it all. First time my mother went to the Episcopal church with us,

03:02:27.020 - 03:02:38.620

big the Baptist she is. Halfway through the service, she gave me the elbow. And she says, one more step and you'd be who know what. [LAUGHTER]

03:02:38.620 - 03:02:58.220

They revised the prayer book in the Episcopal church, for which we were much against, because it was such beautiful language. And now it's just ordinary language.

03:02:58.220 - 03:03:09.180

But they have right one and right two. Right one is sort of like the old prayer book and has some of the V's and the thou's in it. And the other one is just like any old buddy talking.

03:03:09.180 - 03:03:19.620

So I like only the right one. So I went to one church here, and they don't ever have it. And then I called another church, and they had it every other Sunday.

03:03:19.620 - 03:03:27.980

But it wasn't first and third Sunday, so you'd know which Sunday. It was every other one. And if you missed out, you'd know where to go.

03:03:27.980 - 03:03:38.500

And then I found this one at Oakland Park, that it's the 8 o'clock service. And I went for a long time by myself. And then I started going with a couple who had just

03:03:38.500 - 03:03:51.060

moved to the assisted living. And then we go out for breakfast afterwards. And I like this rector very much. What makes you happy?

03:03:51.060 - 03:04:02.100

Life. I like people. I like living. And I don't dislike many things.

03:04:02.100 - 03:04:18.500

And one of them is the Bush family, both of them. I'm sorry, didn't-- what did you say about the Bush family? I said there's very few things that I dislike. And that encompasses the entire Bush family.

03:04:18.500 - 03:04:31.660

I think they're ruining both the state of Florida. I think I've sinned greatly to have to have two of them, a governor and a president. I refuse to sing, "I'm Proud to be an American."

03:04:31.660 - 03:04:42.820

I'm ashamed to be an American, very much ashamed to be an American. But that son of a-- That makes me sad.

03:04:42.820 - 03:04:55.140

I thought maybe we'd be lucky when he landed on that carrier, but we weren't. He made it. In looking back over your life, of all the things

03:04:55.140 - 03:05:21.420

that you have ever done outside of having your children, what is the one thing that you are most proud of? Well, of course, being a WASP is one of them. And I'm just proud that I've had a wonderful life.

03:05:21.420 - 03:05:34.340

My husband and I got to do a lot of traveling. And he was the most wonderful person. Spoil the daylights out of me. We were married for 47 and 1/2 years.

03:05:34.340 - 03:05:53.580

And he even went out gracefully. He played golf and came home and had a heart attack and died. What got you through that hard time? My faith that I'd see him again someday.

03:05:53.580 - 03:06:12.660

Hold on to it. Let me ask you, what do you think the legacy of the WASP will be? Well, it'll be among the things that the history books will

03:06:12.660 - 03:06:33.540

teach the kids, but they have so much now that it's going to be hard for it to be much of an impact, I think, because it's a cumulative situation. So many things were released during war times

03:06:33.540 - 03:06:57.260

that freed women up that I find that the kids don't really understand what a leap it was. Because heck, they fly on planes with women pilots. You know what?

03:06:57.260 - 03:07:15.260

I have only flown once with a woman pilot. Guess you'll have to go over to combat. That was kind of funny, too. I always look.

03:07:15.260 - 03:07:27.060

As I say, I always go up in the cockpit. I have to stop and talk to the boys when I'm getting on. And I was waiting in Syracuse, and I saw a man and a woman. They looked like both pilots, and they

03:07:27.060 - 03:07:38.740

were going toward the door where our plane was going to take off. So I ran over, and I asked if they were the crew, and they said yes. And I said to the girl, let me hug your neck.

03:07:38.740 - 03:07:52.980

I said, I've been looking for you and looking for you. I said, I've been looking for a woman pilot, and she saw this. So anyhow, they talked for a little while to me.

03:07:52.980 - 03:08:01.540

And then when I was getting on board, the stewardess said, you're supposed to go into the cockpit. Good. What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran?

03:08:01.540 - 03:08:23.860

I think she was a very gutsy lady, and I think she was also very much of an egotist. But without her, we never would have been. Because if she hadn't been pushy and pushy and pushy--

03:08:23.860 - 03:08:36.820

I wouldn't be sitting here. No. I mean, I can see where she could be a great source of irritation, but it was her perseverance.

03:08:36.820 - 03:08:51.820

She got the job done. Yeah, right. I admire her, especially since she started out so poorly. And looking back over today, Tex,

03:08:51.820 - 03:09:02.500

is there anything that I have left out that you would like to talk about? Any stories that I-- Mercy, I have to owe so many stories now,

03:09:02.500 - 03:09:14.580

I think I better shut up. Well, let me ask you this one last question. When children are watching this in generations to come, and they will be, what would you like

03:09:14.580 - 03:09:25.980

to say to those children, perhaps some of your great, great grandchildren, that might inspire or motivate them? What would be your advice to them?

03:09:25.980 - 03:09:42.100

Would be what my mother used to say to me, which is, honey, you can do anything that you want to do. You just have to want to do it and go for it, as far as I'm concerned, if you want to.

03:09:42.100 - 03:09:53.420

But you've got to go at it. I find it very difficult here to find that there are people that have moved in here. One gal told me that she'd been here four months,

03:09:53.420 - 03:10:03.980

and she had never eaten in the dining room. She goes and gets takeouts and brings them, because she doesn't have anybody to sit with. When I came in, I didn't know anybody.

03:10:03.980 - 03:10:16.780

I went over, I said, I'm alone, would you put me with somebody? And 50% of the people right behind me would say, would you care to join us, if they had room at their table?

03:10:16.780 - 03:10:29.060

But you've got to go for it. You can't sit back and expect somebody to put anything in your lap. If you don't go for it, you'll never get it.

03:10:29.060 - 03:10:36.500

That's what I would say. Nancy, do you have anything? No. I'm going to go for it.

03:10:36.500 - 03:10:49.540

Tex, I can't thank you enough. For the children who watch you 50 years from now, I say thank you for them. Boy, were that funny people in those days.

03:10:49.540 - 03:10:58.060

I know this is a long time. But I sure appreciate this, Tex. I mean-- We are doing this.

03:10:58.060 - 03:11:06.260

If you don't go for it, you won't get it. Well, here we are, Tex. [LAUGHTER] That's kind of why we're here.

03:11:06.260 - 03:11:08.820

We came for it, yeah.