00:00:01.380 - 00:00:15.840

He said that the insurance has just gone wacky. So I guess we'll be bringing it over from under the other wing of the P4. We are going to. And you can just look at mom.

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Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish. We are interviewing Suzanne Parrish in her office at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

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Wasp, Class 44-6. Today is the 19th of July, 2001. Okay, Susie, if you will start off by giving us your name and when and where you were born. Okay, thank you. I'd love to. When I was born? Okay. My name is Suzanne Upjohn Delano parish with one R. And I was born in New York City on November 13, 1922.

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Very lucky day. Tell us something about your mother and your father. My mom, well my father was a stage director in New York City, and my mother was a blooming actress in New York City, and she even acted with Eugene O'Neill and people like that.

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And someone once told me that if Mom had stayed in the theater, she would have been even better than Ethel Barrymore. But she was living in Greenwich Village, and my grandpa, W.E. Upjohn, did not like his daughter being in New York City trying to raise three young

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children alone. And he kept telling her that wasn't the place to raise a family, and wouldn't she move home. And she told him, "Dad, I want to be an actress, and I want to stay here to do it."

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And finally he said, "Well, Dorothy, I'll build you a home in Kalamazoo." And she said, "No, really, Dad, I want to be an actress." And he finally said, "Dorothy, I'll build you a theater." And so she finally moved back with the three of us, a sister who was four years older and

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my younger brother who was two years younger, who seemed older. Kelly: Right. And did your mom and dad work together? Litz: No, they really did not.

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In fact, apparently they did not get along very well. Dad would go back with Mom and they would try and make up and another baby would come. And by the fourth time that happened, she said, "Alan, I'm sorry dear, but I'm going to leave you and we're going to get a divorce."

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And she moved to England and got her divorce there. And the only thing I remember about being overseas, and it turned out to be in France, was a sandy road and a yellow daisy field. That's all I remember about that.

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And I do remember the crossing of the canal, because all the people on board were passing this wastebasket to each other for everybody to throw up into. How old were you? I would have been six at that time.

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And then I guess we were there about a year in England and then came back. And when you came back, your mother moved to Kalamazoo? Yes, where Dad was, and where she had lived before going to New York City. And your dad stayed in New York City?

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He did, and became enamored of a young actress that apparently Mother's best friend introduced him to. And before I knew it, she was my stepmother. What a wonderful cook, just a marvelous cook.

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She had her own herb garden and everything. Kelly: When your mom came back to Kalamazoo, did your dad build her a house? Reed: My grandpa did, her dad did. Yes, a house and built the Civic Auditorium, which is now the Civic Theater in Kalamazoo.

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Kelly: What are your first remembrances of living in Kalamazoo? I think my first remembrances were riding a little pony, because I loved to ride. And I was riding a little pony that we had bought from neighbors out at the lake. His name was Bobby.

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He was a little Shetland pony, and whenever I'd squeeze him, if someone was standing near, he'd bite them. Oh, I loved that about him. But he was a nice little pony.

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When you were living in Kalamazoo, was your house in the city or were you out in the country? No, we were up on a hill. It was called Orchard Hills, a little area actually that Grandpa had bought, in which my Aunt Winifred lived there and Uncle Don and Aunt Jane and Mom.

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And one was for Uncle Rudolph. But he would not take it because he felt he wanted to pick his own house. So there was an empty field there for a long time. So they had more or less their own little compound of family.

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And I inherited my mother's house, and that's where I'm living now with my friend. When you started school, how far was school from your house? School was one, two, three, about four blocks, four or five blocks. And I went to school at that time to Western State Teachers College Training School, or

00:06:06.880 - 00:06:21.940

called the Normal School. And at the Teachers College, the teachers would come over and get their practicing teaching with all of us, and that was sort of fun. How large a school was your elementary school?

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How many in your class, for example? How many children? I think maybe thirty, about that. And your siblings, were they older or younger?

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My sister was four years older, and my brother was two years younger. During the summertime, when you were growing up, how did you spend your summers? Did you go on vacations? No.

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We would go out to Gull Lake, which was 110 feet deep, and a spring-fed lake, just a lovely lake. It was five miles long and it is a mile wide. And my Aunt Jane and Uncle Don went out there, and also Uncle Irving went out there, and

00:07:09.980 - 00:07:26.640

Uncle Stanley rather. And also people around the lake, and we'd live there just in the summertime. But all of us at the north end had quite large houses, whereas the ones down near Yorkville had very rather small houses.

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And I had horses, because I loved to ride. And later on I had my own cow pony that I had bought for my brother, actually. He rode him too, but he was a very joggy, jaunty horse, and Bill couldn't get him to walk.

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I finally did get him to walk, and also taught him to jump. I had a big Irish hunter also. During the summers—oh, first of all, I went to Oldfield School in Glencoe, Maryland for two years, my prep school.

00:08:06.760 - 00:08:22.060

In those days, everybody for graduation was given a diamond ring. Now, apparently not everybody, but most of them were. I really did not want a diamond ring, and I told Mom that. She said, "Well, dear, what would you like?"

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I said, "Well, frankly, I would like a car and a trailer to take my horses to the horse shows." She got a driver and drove to school for my graduation in this car, dragging the trailer. It was just a wonderful present, which I used.

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Let me go back to your elementary school. Do you recall any teachers that you had in elementary school? I do. Miss Gish I had.

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I think she was our math teacher. I remember her from the second grade, but she also taught math. I know I wasn't good at math at all, but I loved it. And the thing I liked about it, I later learned in high school, was because you could see

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that something was either right or wrong. In high school, I loved my teacher, Miss Walker, but I thought, "Why weren't my interpretations of readings just as good as anybody else's?" But theirs were always right, and I could never understand that.

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[SW:] In growing up, Suzanne, tell me what Christmas was like at your house. [SR:] Oh my, it was wonderful. I mean, there wasn't a dad, but there were the four of us—the three of us—my sister and brother and mom.

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And one time, for instance, she gave me a saddle for my Christmas present, and she had I brought it up to my room so that the first thing in the morning when I'd wake up I'd see it. And I think she often did that, and I think the purpose was so that she could sleep in

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after a night practicing at the theater. You know, they practiced till one and two o'clock in the morning. So I'm sure she had a reason for doing that. Birthdays, she did the same thing.

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At Christmas, would you have a Christmas tree? Yes, we had a Christmas tree. Did you have stockings? Yes, we had stockings on the fireplace.

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Tell me what you would find in your stocking. You know, I don't remember. Well, of course, in the bottom of the stocking were always oranges and nuts and things like that.

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But small, very nice gifts in the stocking would stick out. I remember one year she had given me for Christmas a rocking horse, and I'd ride on it. And my neighbors would come over and write on it, and even Norm would write on it, with whom I am now.

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And we played together as children. Kelly: When you were young and your mother was going to the theater, do you remember any plays that you saw that she was in? Can you recall anything?

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Well, George Washington slept here, I remember that. You know, we didn't go to that many of them, but she was in a lot of them. I know one she always wanted to be in was the solid gold Cadillac, and she never had a chance to do that.

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But you know, there was something magic about Mom. when she'd come on the stage, the whole aura of the stage would change, and you just knew that there was a real pro there now. Because this was a theater of amateur people, and some of them were very good.

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Kelly: As young children, did you have chores? Litz: No, we didn't. No chores. Kelly: Okay.

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Tell me some of the games you would play. Mom had a colored couple that helped for her. They were wonderful, wonderful people. Sometimes I think that really they were the ones who brought me up because Mom was so

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busy with her civic things and being in the theater and doing all that. How often would you get to see your father? You know, it was strange about Mom and Dad. I was asking you about how often you saw your dad.

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Oh, yes. Dad and Mom worked out a situation where we spent our short vacations with Dad. That would be Thanksgiving and Christmas and Easter with Dad and Gladys, because she was an actress also.

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And Mom had given Dad some up-John stock and gave him enough so that he would have money to take care of us when we went to visit them. Gladys was also a playwright. Well, it turned out to be enough income for them that they lived on it.

00:13:08.900 - 00:13:25.280

I did not know that until later. Describe a typical vacation with your dad. What would you do? With my dad, he was an avid golfer, so I would walk with him around the little nine-hole

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golf course, at least I think it was just nine, up in Woodstock, New York, where he and Gladys lived. Sometimes at home, he would go out and shoot frogs so we could have frog legs. And she said she'd cook them if he would clean them.

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They were marvelous. As I mentioned, I think she had her own herb garden, and everything they had was just delicious. And now and then they'd have parties, and of course I'd go to them, or eat early, I forget which.

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And there was nothing to do, but they had a nice little library up in the two rooms where Bill and I both would stay, and full of books that I never read at home because I was too busy. But I loved to go there because I'd have time to read, and I loved that about it.

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Did your dad live in a house or was it an apartment? It was a house, yeah, and he had quite a bit of land and on it this pond where the frogs were and also some fish. Once in a while he'd catch one.

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Can you recall how you felt when it was time for you to go see your dad and spend some time with him? I was always happy to and happy to go home. Because they were friendly.

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Both of them just did not see any point in not being friendly when they had loved each other and had the three children. They just thought, "Why do people waste their time being the other way?" And especially when you had—we were well off—and when you had that, as I have learned,

00:15:06.940 - 00:15:26.180

it is much more fun having it and sharing it than not. What are your remembrances of your other grandparents, your father's parents? Litz: You know, very little. Oh, my father's parents, I hardly knew them, but they lived on a farm north of Kalamazoo,

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and we would go there once in a while, but not often. Kelly: Do you remember anything you did at the farm when you would go visit? Litz: Well, yes. I do remember that they had stored oats in a particular huge room, kind of, and you could

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get to it. That was where they filled it, I guess, from the top. You could jump in there and play. It had the most wonderful feel, the oats did.

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We loved that. Did those grandparents ever come and visit in your home at a holiday or something? I'm sure. But mostly we went down to Grandma and Grandpa's—Upjohn's.

00:16:09.680 - 00:16:25.480

We went down there. And where did they live in relation to you? Grandma and Grandpa Upjohn, Grandma Carol, they lived in Kalamazoo. We were up on the hill in Kalamazoo, but you felt that you were not still in it because

00:16:25.560 - 00:16:43.720

there were not many houses around at all. Describe a visit to your grandfather Upjohn's home. It was a big Victorian red brick home with a big entrance to it, and sat back from the street a little bit and a red brick fence going around it.

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When you drove in, you went around to the side of the house and there was, do they call it a porte-courtshire? Porte-courtshire? Yeah, the over-covered sort of porch where you drove the car, and it would be covered.

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Then we would walk into the house from there. And I remember Grandma Carol, because each of their spouses had died, and then they married each other, and they lived next door. She always had candy around in these spindled glass containers, always had that.

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The dinners, of course, these were celebrations, so they were usually a roast turkey in a formal dining room that the maid would come in and deliver it and serve the dinner. Would the children get to eat at the big table? Yes, we all did.

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Do you ever remember a Christmas that you spent with them? Always. Oh no, that's right. For dinner we would go there.

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We'd have our Christmas tree and all at home, but then for dinner we'd come down there. And then part of the other families would be there too. Then we were distributed through the bottom floor of the house at different tables because

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we wouldn't all fit at the big table. During the Christmas season, were there ever times that you spent in celebrating perhaps a religious type of concert or something like a midnight mass or something of that nature? Reifeldt: No, we had a very nice symphony orchestra that was developing in Kalamazoo

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beginning, and my Aunt Jane used to go to it and Uncle Don all the time. And my mom never took us, except she would once in a while, but she'd get the preferred seats which were right in front of the orchestra down low, and it was so loud I just—it hurt my ears.

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I didn't like it. So unfortunately I've never grown up with the love of the symphony. I'm sorry now because one of my sons is very musical. Let me take you back and after you started elementary school, you had that one teacher.

00:19:13.140 - 00:19:31.220

What were the activities at school that you enjoyed? And Miss Stevens was our seventh grade teacher. I loved art and I loved gymnastics in the school and those were the things I really liked.

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Were you into music? And once in a while we would sing. Music. Music, yes.

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But every now and then the music teacher would ask for a request from one of us, and I always had a request. It was always the Star Spangled Banner. I do not know why that was.

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Wow. I know. As you moved from elementary grades to junior high school, did you change schools or was it all in one building?

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We changed schools and we went over to the high school. Was that a private school or a public school? You know, there is one awful thing I did as a child, and I don't know if I should tell you this or not.

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Why not? No one is going to know. Well, we had a dog, and then Mom let me get my own pet, and she got me a couple of white rats from the Upjohn Company, I suppose, because they used them there to experiment on.

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So I had my two little white rats, and they kept multiplying and multiplying and multiplying, and we didn't know what to do about it. But every now and then—oh, and then, what an awful thing, they started eating each other. I suppose it was because they were inbred or something.

00:20:57.300 - 00:21:14.580

So sometimes when I'd get a dead one, I'd take it to school with me, and I'd put it in the teacher's desk drawer for a present. Well, that wasn't very popular. I don't know, my mom must have heard about it, but I didn't do it for long.

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And then another thing, I used to go to school chewing gum. I loved gum. And the teacher said, "Susie, if you're going to come in here chewing gum, you bring enough for everybody."

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So I did. I don't think she liked that very much either. I'm afraid I wasn't a very nice child. At home, when you would do something that needed correcting, how were you punished?

00:21:46.080 - 00:22:08.840

I think we were just talked to by Mitchie and Vivi, who were Mom's help, and they sort of say, "Susie, you shouldn't have done that." But you know, I never had any discipline, none at all. How about in school, when children would be naughty in school, how were they disciplined?

00:22:10.420 - 00:22:27.720

I don't remember. I think we must have all been little angels. I don't remember that part of it at all. You finished after elementary, you go to a different school, junior high school.

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Public school or private? This was all sort of a private school, I guess. Was it a religious backing or just a private school? It was the normal school for the teachers' college, so their teachers could practice

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on it. And then how did you get from home to junior high? Was it farther away? Oh no, it was just across a little driveway.

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So you could walk. Into another building, yes. And the junior high, then there wasn't a junior high, it was just high school. And it went from the ninth to the twelfth grade.

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And growing up with your winters here, did you? Well it must have been both because we did graduate from the other grade school out of seventh grade. But then I—

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Do you remember graduation ceremony from seventh grade? No. No, we didn't do that in those days. I remember an Egyptian tea that we used to have every year, and they'd put cinnamon

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in the tea, and it just smelled so good, tasted good, too. And all the parents, you know, would come into this. Was this for a special occasion, you would have this tea once a year? Rose in the rotunda, which was round.

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Kelly: And would the student serve the tea, or would someone else? Reifeltieff: I think maybe each class had the tea on a desk or something. I don't remember any serving of it. Kelly: Was your mother ever involved in your school, for example, PTA, or any of that?

00:24:08.680 - 00:24:33.900

She might have come to the school when I flunked out of the second grade, I'm not sure. I know why I don't remember this. I flunked out of the second grade because there was a young man I really liked in it, and I used to chase him around the second grade all the time, and the teacher didn't

00:24:33.980 - 00:24:50.240

like it very well. she flunked me, I guess that's how I was punished. But Mom knew that there was a very nice school up the road a ways called Hillcrest School that she could get me into, and that way I'd only flunk half a grade.

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So she took me there, and our chauffeur would drive me to the school. Did your brother and sister change schools, or did they stay? No, they stayed in the training school. Do you remember how you felt about that?

00:25:06.390 - 00:25:22.980

Lowdermilk Honstein No, I don't, except it was fine with me because I met a young girl, a little girl, who became my best friend, and we were very good friends. Oh, and I remember at that school when I got up to the sixth grade finally, or fifth maybe,

00:25:26.720 - 00:25:49.060

There was another yet nice young man, and his father was the detective, I think the chief detective on the police force in Kalamazoo. I had decided by then what I wanted to do when I grew up. We could hear the train at home as it went by, way down the hill, but you could hear

00:25:49.180 - 00:26:04.860

it. And, of course, Tom Mix was my favorite actor. And when I was growing up, Mother did say one thing. She said, "You are not to go to the Fuller Theater, and you're certainly not to go

00:26:04.940 - 00:26:16.840

to the movies barefooted." Well, I did both. And I saw Tom Mix in Ace of Aces, where he had a little lion cub back in his airplane. I think it must have been a biplane.

00:26:17.840 - 00:26:38.320

I went to see it six times. One time I was caught coming out of the girls' room. Mother brought us home from France after the divorce, all of us with boy's haircuts. So I had this little boy's haircut, and he said, "Little boy, you are not to go

00:26:38.480 - 00:26:48.080

in that. That is not your bathroom." And I said, "But it is, I'm a girl," and had some time convincing him that I really was a girl.

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Oh, and let's see, I was telling about Hillcrest School, the son of the detective. So I had decided that I really did want to go out west and join Tom Hicks and the circus, but I also knew that I should have a weapon to protect myself. So I got Digg Tedra to go home and get a gun for me, because I needed the protection.

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And that day it was rainy, and we both wore big raincoats so that he could say, "Sue, I've got the gun." And he passed me the gun, and I put it in the pocket and went on and finished the day of school and hid it under my bed.

00:27:35.880 - 00:27:50.580

You know, nobody would find it there. And I went out, and he gave me a bullet too. And I put the bullet in the gun and went out where all these apple trees were. And I did not know how to load it, but I thought, "Well, I must go in this way."

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It was a six-shooter. And I would load it, and I would try and shoot it into the tree, and nothing would happen. So I thought, "Well, maybe it goes the other way." I kept trying to shoot it, but it just would not.

00:28:02.780 - 00:28:22.120

So I would just go back and hide it under the bed again. Well, Ginger, one time when she was making the bed, felt it and told Mother about it. And Mother called the detective and said, "Do you know, Mr. Tedrow, where your guns are?"

00:28:22.120 - 00:28:44.760

And he said, "Of course I do, but I won't tell you who are you." And she told him, "I'm Mrs. Dorothy Delano, and I think you better go up and look at your guns in your upstairs, in your middle top drawer." He said, "Why, I don't understand this," but barged up and back down to the phone and

00:28:44.880 - 00:29:06.680

said, "I don't know how you know this, but I am missing a gun." And Mother made me drive up to the house, and I remember to this day it had an oval front door window in it, and I had to go up. And Don Moses, our driver, knew that I was to go up there and give it to him, and I had

00:29:06.760 - 00:29:19.040

to and apologized. How old were you? Let's see, twelve probably. If I was in the sixth grade, eleven or twelve.

00:29:20.600 - 00:29:33.420

Yeah. And the little boy that gave it to you was about the same age? Yes, and I'm sure reprimanded. How long did you stay at Hillcrest School?

00:29:33.750 - 00:29:52.160

I graduated through the sixth grade, then went back to the normal school and was there for the seventh and eighth grade. That was it. And then when we were finished with the eighth grade, there must have been a little ceremony,

00:29:52.320 - 00:30:09.260

but I don't think there was. We walked across the street then to the high school for the next four years. While you were in high school, what was your favorite subject? English, even though my teacher would never agree with me.

00:30:10.380 - 00:30:20.040

But I did like it. I loved to write. Well, and again, though, basketball and all the athletics and art, those two things. Were you on a basketball team?

00:30:21.240 - 00:30:32.260

The intra-school one, I suppose. But you know they never let us dribble. I don't know if girls get to dribble or not, but I always thought that wasn't very fair.

00:30:34.160 - 00:30:54.240

[Laughter.] Kelly: Were you interested in anything in drama or speech or any of that? Mildred: I liked speech, and no, we didn't have drama in the school. And actually, I left it at the eleventh grade.

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I went through the eleventh grade. I had gone to camp out in Montana, and Aunt Jane had decided that probably I should go away to school, to a prep school. What kind of camp did you go to?

00:31:11.820 - 00:31:24.940

Western camp in the Teton Valley area. Describe that experience. Oh, I loved it. Boys and girls were there, and we'd even go out on a pack trip.

00:31:26.000 - 00:31:40.220

But the boys and the girls would camp about a mile apart, and then the boys would walk over and have a bonfire with us in the evening. Did your siblings go also, or were you by yourself? No, I was by myself.

00:31:41.460 - 00:31:47.240

My cousin, Martha Gilmore, came. And she was there. Was that your Aunt Jane's daughter? Yes, it was.

00:31:47.780 - 00:32:01.120

Yeah. We were very close, like another sister near my age. So when your Aunt Jane decided you should go to a prep school, where did you go? Went to Oldfield School in Glencoe, Maryland.

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How did you get from Michigan to Maryland? I went on the New York Central Railway to New York. By yourself? By myself.

00:32:14.380 - 00:32:32.700

with wearing a hat and stockings and white gloves to this school. But I had met a girl at the ranch that I liked at the camp very much, Ruth Porter, and I looked her up and found out where she had gone to school. She must have told me.

00:32:33.560 - 00:32:46.020

And that was the school I picked for that. And also they had writing. And that was—you had finished eleventh grade or you were going into eleventh grade when you did that?

00:32:46.400 - 00:32:56.500

Both. Both. I went to the eleventh grade, but you had a better chance at the new school if you could stay two years, and so that's what I did.

00:32:56.860 - 00:33:10.620

And that was when I took typing, which was the most valuable course of anything I took. Where did you— Because I had more time to spend and more credits to use. Where did you live when you went to this new school?

00:33:11.080 - 00:33:22.960

In these dorms. It was an old, old school, and I stayed in the old house. In fact, we only had one dorm for the whole school, and there were sixty students at the school.

00:33:25.780 - 00:33:42.340

Do you remember getting homesick? Oh, I must have at first, yeah. And was your mother still in theater at that time? No, Mom had had a nervous breakdown, so she was in Stockbridge, New York, and she was

00:33:42.420 - 00:34:02.340

there for two or three years. And you know, I'll never forget a meeting I had with her psychiatric person, the head of the place, I guess, really, who said, "You know, Susie, I think I better tell you that your mother will never be better."

00:34:02.340 - 00:34:22.380

you can imagine. And I came home and I told Barbie and Bill that, and we said, "We're not going to let that happen." And we got on the phone with Mom, and she had a lady taking care of us who was a good

00:34:22.460 - 00:34:37.960

friend of hers, who we felt was trying to usurp Mom's job. And we called her and we said, "Mom, you have to come home. We don't want Sarah here anymore. You've got to come home."

00:34:37.960 - 00:34:53.260

And she was so touched. She said, "You mean you really want me?" And she said, "Well, you know, I can't come home. I can't stay at home at first because I'm not used to being around people."

00:34:53.260 - 00:35:11.680

But she said, "I can come and stay at my cottage at Lake Michigan. I'll do that and then I'll come home." And we were so pleased and we said—because we were each on a phone throughout the house, she had phones all over—and we were so pleased and we said how pleased we were and we said,

00:35:11.700 - 00:35:26.460

"Mom and we'll get Sarah an apartment nearby but not here." And so we did that. And she moved out and then Mitchie and Vivi would stay with us and they really kind of brought us up at that point.

00:35:27.690 - 00:35:48.100

And they were the ones that had been with you since you were small. Yeah, and their cousin Ginger who had found the phone—a knife, I mean, gun. And at that point were your grandparents, were they still living? Oh yes, very much, yeah.

00:35:48.820 - 00:35:56.680

How did that affect them? Which? With your mom. You know, my aunt was not understanding about it.

00:35:57.320 - 00:36:08.080

And she would say, Dorothy, get hold of yourself. You're perfectly all right. Just get well. And you know, that's how they treated it in those days.

00:36:08.860 - 00:36:19.480

And there was no such thing as depression or a nervous breakdown. And Aunt Jane must have thought she was pretending or something.

00:36:20.180 - 00:36:36.840

But we know now these days, indeed it is a condition, and now they have things to do about it. Did you visit then your mom up at the lake when she came there? We did, and I visited her, of course I did in Woodstock.

00:36:38.620 - 00:36:58.920

Yes, we'd go out, but she wasn't there long. She began getting used to things again quite quickly because her friends would come out, friend Louise Carver and Norm Carver and they were very much in the theater. He was the first head of the theater, in fact helped build it, and so they were there.

00:36:59.170 - 00:37:06.120

Kelly: And then eventually did she come back home and then go back to the theater? Lowry: Yes, she did. Yeah. Kelly: Oh, that's great.

00:37:06.120 - 00:37:12.120

Lowry: Yeah. Kelly: All right. Okay. And then you went ahead and finished at this prep school.

00:37:13.500 - 00:37:19.520

Do you recall, did you have a prom before? Before we graduated? Yes, we did. Describe that prom.

00:37:21.760 - 00:37:45.700

No, we did not have a prom because it was very much a single-sexed girls' school. In fact, we could not even receive calls from men, boys, and poor my brother Bill would have a terrible time getting through to me, but he had to prove that he was my brother. Now, I do not know how, but some of the girls skirted around that and got all kinds of things.

00:37:48.460 - 00:38:06.340

Could you describe your graduation then from high school? It was held out on a hillside outside where we had the Maypole dance also. And it was there and the parents were over here. Well, you know how a typical one would be.

00:38:07.300 - 00:38:28.080

For children. When I was in high school, I found out that I was neither christened nor baptized. So if you can imagine, as a senior in high school—it was an Episcopalian school—I did get baptized and christened, and oh my, but I did.

00:38:31.300 - 00:38:47.960

How did that make you feel? I'm sure it made me feel more like one of everybody and made me feel very good, as well as very embarrassed that I wanted to do this because it had never been done before. Did your mom come for that?

00:38:50.100 - 00:39:02.240

I don't think so. It was just along with her service. And your graduation, did you have caps and gowns? Yes, we did, I think.

00:39:03.300 - 00:39:20.280

I don't think we did, but very pretty dresses. Did your mom and your grandparents and your dad, did they come for graduation? I'm sure mom did, because she came with this horse and trailer, but I think she was the only one in the family.

00:39:21.400 - 00:39:38.400

Maybe Aunt Jane and Uncle Don came, I don't really remember. Then when you graduated, well let me ask you, while you were in high school, what were your social activities like? Like none.

00:39:39.100 - 00:39:55.280

My interests were in horses, and I was riding and training my horses, and that's all I did really. I so wish that Mother—Mom built a tennis court, and it was for my cousin Carol, because she was a very good tennis player.

00:39:56.420 - 00:40:09.420

But she never said to me, "Sue, you ought to take some tennis lessons," you know, "Or Sue, you ought to sail the boat." Well, Bill and Barbie didn't want me to sail the boat anyway because that was what they were doing.

00:40:10.540 - 00:40:22.880

They each had a 22-meter boat. And Barbie would take me sailing, but she would pick the roughest day of the year and scare the life out of me. I didn't like that very much.

00:40:23.930 - 00:40:37.920

When you were growing up, did you learn to ski and to skate? No. My ankles were weak, so I was never good at skating. But we could have pushed an air—well, no, we weren't at the lake though in the wintertime.

00:40:38.330 - 00:40:52.900

We moved back into town, which is what everybody did then. And we had big houses out there, but they'd all move into those and then move back to town. Okay, you want to change film?

00:40:53.240 - 00:40:57.660

Okay. Hey, we're doing great. Is that all right? Oh, you're doing great.

00:40:57.680 - 00:41:13.300

Oh, dear. What an interesting life. Okay, Suzanne, as you were growing up, what kind of family did you have? Were you a touchy, lovey, feely family, or were you more reserved?

00:41:14.280 - 00:41:18.920

We were very reserved. Never touchy-feely. I wish we had been. Okay.

00:41:21.120 - 00:41:32.720

As you were growing up, who were your role models? Tom Mix, I suppose. What was fascinating about Tommy? Let me see, did I have a role model?

00:41:34.400 - 00:41:45.140

Well, in Mitchie and Vivi, I loved them. I don't really think I had a role model. Any teachers that— That I wanted to be like?

00:41:45.260 - 00:42:02.920

Uh-huh. Not really. I think the people who were good horse people, maybe I liked. Do you recall, did your grandparents come to your graduation?

00:42:04.470 - 00:42:18.660

Do you recall what they gave you for your graduation? No, I don't. I'm not sure they gave us anything. I recall what my uncle and aunt gave me because Uncle Don was working with silver, and he

00:42:18.760 - 00:42:28.380

gave me a very pretty bowl. But other than that, I don't. And your dad and stepmother, did they come over for your graduation? No, no.

00:42:28.480 - 00:42:41.940

No, okay. When you were in high school, a senior in high school— And nor did my brother and sister either, because they were both in school. Or else I would see them and forget whether they were still in school at the time or not.

00:42:43.220 - 00:42:56.780

What was your ambition when you were in high school, knowing you were going to graduate? What was your ambition? I had planned to go on to college, and I picked Sarah Lawrence College. I was going to go there.

00:42:57.620 - 00:43:14.900

Kelly: And why did you pick that particular college? Lowry: Because it was the most progressive one in the country and they would accept me. That's why. Kelly: And what did you want to study in college?

00:43:15.200 - 00:43:27.760

What were your goals? Lowry: My goal was just to get through. And actually, you did not even have to go to classes at Sarah Lawrence if you could pass all the exams.

00:43:29.480 - 00:43:56.780

My problem was I did neither, but I did learn how to get around New York marvelously. The roads there were north and south and east and west, depending on even or odd streets that you were on, and I did know that. The summer that you finished high school, graduated, what did you do during that summer

00:43:56.920 - 00:44:10.760

before you started college? I showed my horses. Went to horse shows. Do you recall any incidents that happened with your horses that you remember?

00:44:12.100 - 00:44:26.700

Yes, my cow pony would jump beautifully. She was an interesting horse. She would get in just right for every jump and jump it. And so many horses will get in, but then they need to take a short stride and then jump

00:44:26.780 - 00:44:39.560

it, or take off way far behind and jump it. But this horse got in just right each time. Did you ever win any ribbons or trophies with your horses? Yes.

00:44:40.540 - 00:44:55.200

I did well with those, but I was always second. I wasn't first in winning trophies at that time. When you left to go to Sarah Lawrence, what happened to your horses? Well, they were in a barn at home.

00:44:56.440 - 00:45:12.580

Then who took care of them? We had a barn out at Gull Lake, and a couple lived in one end of the barn, and Fred would take care of them. And with my cousin, Martha Gilmore, she had horses too.

00:45:13.620 - 00:45:40.560

his brother, we called him Baldy, would take care of their horses. So it wasn't an uncommon thing. And then down the road was a family, the Ordways, that had even an indoor ring. And one of my goals after I graduated was to show in Madison Square Garden, oh, I wanted to do that. But they would never invite me to go with them, so I never did that.

00:45:41.420 - 00:46:00.840

When you went to Sarah Lawrence, where is Sarah Lawrence? It's in Bronxville, New York, outside of New York City. Did you see a lot more of your dad once you went to Sarah Lawrence? Maybe a little more, because they had an apartment in New York City, and I could visit them there

00:46:01.060 - 00:46:18.100

on weekends a bit. Do you ever recall going and seeing your stepmother in a play? No, she wrote plays. She wasn't an actress anymore, and the biggest play that she wrote—and I'm not sure if

00:46:18.140 - 00:46:34.440

it was published—was next week, East Lynn. And apparently East Lynn is a little tiny town where you travel—if you're traveling around with the plays, that was one stop. Did she ever write a play that was performed?

00:46:36.000 - 00:46:49.240

Possibly that one. I remember my sister was mentioned in it, and I was always jealous a little bit because I wasn't. When you were going to school at Sarah Lawrence, where did you live?

00:46:49.980 - 00:46:59.100

In the dorm. Describe the dorm for us. There were several dorms. It was a big brick building and very nice.

00:47:00.100 - 00:47:21.020

As I recall, it had more than one dorm at Sarah Lawrence. And I was in the one right above the entry, I remember. Did you make any lasting friends at Sarah Lawrence? Not really, although I do remember one friend that I'm sure that I kind of kept contact

00:47:21.120 - 00:47:48.600

with was Betsy Inches, and she was a very good tennis player, and I believe still is. lives in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, and I think her husband is possibly a pediatrician. At Sarah Lawrence, what were your other activities other than academics? Oh dear, well, as I grew up I loved horses so much that I had had a pair of hoofs made,

00:47:49.180 - 00:48:06.040

and I could do all the gaits of a horse. And so I would go out under the trees or bushes where I hoped no one could see me, and I would practice going along with my hoofs, cantering along or trotting or whatnot. And that's all.

00:48:06.140 - 00:48:23.620

They didn't have athletics there, as I recall. I wasn't in them. Were there other activities that you were interested in, for example, drama and speech or journalism?

00:48:23.830 - 00:48:40.660

Litz: Yes, I was interested in drama. And actually that was at my prep school, and I was in some plays there in the school. With Dad, we would go to plays because they were very interested naturally in the theater, and I'd go to plays with them.

00:48:41.500 - 00:48:59.600

And then once I had met a young boy at camp in Montana, and he was at Cornell, and he invited me to one of the games. And I was terribly excited about that, and that was my great exciting weekend when I was at Sarah Lawrence.

00:49:00.790 - 00:49:26.000

Kelly: How many years did you go to Sarah Lawrence? With mutual consent, I left and they said goodbye. I had determined I wanted to be a veterinarian, so I took chemistry that summer so I could be ready to go to veterinarian classes at Cornell, because that was the best place for

00:49:26.080 - 00:49:42.520

that. I remember coming home from New York City one time in the taxi. That was when I heard that we were at war, December 7, 1941. How did that affect you?

00:49:43.940 - 00:50:03.180

Well, I could not understand it. I did not know anything about anything like that. I did not even read very much, so it was a complete surprise. When was the first time that you became interested, other than Tom Mix, in airplanes?

00:50:04.820 - 00:50:25.340

Outside of that, when is the first time that you became interested in airplanes? Mildred: The first time I became a little bit interested was when my cousin Dick Light took me for a ride in the plane that he and his wife on their honeymoon had flown around the world.

00:50:25.700 - 00:50:41.060

It was a Blanca Cruiser, and they took me for a ride in that. And we were at the airport, and he was giving rides to anybody who wanted one, and I did too. How old were you at that point?

00:50:41.900 - 00:50:58.360

I would have graduated. It was between Sarah Lawrence and Cornell, it was that summer. They had returned. And you know what, they flew around the world in a plane with pontoons, if you can believe

00:50:58.460 - 00:51:14.560

that, and no navigation equipment in those days. And Mary Light, his wife, was the navigator. It's amazing to me. How did Pearl Harbor affect your family?

00:51:16.860 - 00:51:38.320

Well, everybody was shocked, as we were in those days, and we all wanted to do our war effort. I had a boyfriend, and he went off and was a pilot. So that was when I decided, no, no, by then I had fallen off my horse that summer and

00:51:38.360 - 00:51:51.040

had fractured my ankle. Now in those days a fracture was a crack and not a break. But they had put an ace bandage on it and said I couldn't ride for six weeks, not even bareback.

00:51:53.140 - 00:52:13.580

So I was following Mom around the house on my crutches, and one day she said, "You know, Sue, your cousin Dick flies. Why don't you go out and take a few flying lessons, dear, until you can ride again?" So I said, "Well, all right," and went down to Austin Lake and fell in love with

00:52:13.640 - 00:52:35.620

it, of course. This was a little tiny airport in the middle of some trees on a lake. And Irv Woodhams, who was my first instructor, they had seaplanes and land planes, Aronca Chiefs and Champs, and we would fly whichever one was in, the seaplane or the land plane.

00:52:36.740 - 00:52:59.980

I began to learn to fly, and I loved it. And then, of course, I was determined to have my war effort in a flying way. I remember one thing that happened after I had soloed and finally had enough experience to go out to the practice area where I would practice my pylon eights and S-turns along

00:53:00.260 - 00:53:13.620

a road. And I did that very diligently and watched my watch, and when the half hour was up, I knew it was time to fly back. So I looked down there for a lake and headed back and got down on Downwind and suddenly

00:53:13.760 - 00:53:30.420

realized it wasn't an airport. And I started looking around for more, and there are so many lakes here, as there are still, I couldn't find Austin Lake. So I kept flying and looking at the lakes and watching my gas tank, which was right

00:53:30.460 - 00:53:48.120

up in front, and the cork coming down as it got emptier and emptier. And I thought, "Well, I know Irv is not going to be happy, but I know one thing. It would be better to land with some gas than without any and have to land at a particular spot."

00:53:48.120 - 00:54:05.820

So I found this one field that had—it was a hay field and it had been mowed. And I remembered the direction I had taken off at home, and so lined up to be in the wind the same way and landed. up, the people in the farmhouse came running out and wondering what was happening.

00:54:06.520 - 00:54:21.520

Why did I crash the plane? I said, "I didn't, I landed." And "Could I use your telephone please, and where am I?" And I was ten miles south of Three Rivers, which is a town down here, and I called Irv,

00:54:21.580 - 00:54:41.840

and I said, "Irv, it's me, Sue. The plane's fine, and I am too." He said, "Where are you?" And he came down in another Aronca and landed and marched over to my plane with his gallon

00:54:42.040 - 00:55:01.960

of gas and put it in the tank and got in the plane. And I had rushed to get in before he started it up and was ready to take off. And he took off and flew us back. And as we got into the traffic pattern of Austin Lake, he said, "Well, you may land

00:55:02.040 - 00:55:16.140

it now, I suppose," and took his hands off the controls. And luckily I made a nice landing and landed. Did your mom know about that? I'm not sure she did.

00:55:16.560 - 00:55:30.980

I didn't tell her. Were you ever able to take your mother up? Yes, I did. Mom, as the years went along, would go to Phoenix, Arizona in the winter because of

00:55:31.100 - 00:55:55.680

Bill's asthma and hay fever. And Barbie was already away at school at Madera in Washington or Maryland, I guess. Incidentally, one of our graduates from Old Field School was the Duchess of Windsor. Did you know her personally?

00:55:55.960 - 00:56:18.080

No, not at all. I wasn't aware of her until later, and I realized she was a fellow graduate. As you kept flying at this little airport, when did you first hear about a training program for women to learn to fly military aircraft?

00:56:18.320 - 00:56:36.600

I think, wasn't it in '42 that the WAPs were formed by Nancy Love? I found out about it, but it was only for experienced pilots, so I couldn't be one. But I still thought somehow—I thought I guess I would get the experience and then become one.

00:56:37.460 - 00:57:03.480

And then after that, the WASPs were started. But you had to be twenty-one, and you had to have a private license at that time. So I wrote my mom and my uncle and my dad and said, "Won't you please tell them I'm twenty-one so I can get in?"

00:57:03.480 - 00:57:20.480

Well, of course, nobody would. And so I started contacting Jacqueline Cochran, and I wired her when I soloed again out in and said, "I've soloed, may I come?" She said, "No, you're not old enough," and sent back a wire.

00:57:21.180 - 00:57:38.000

And this went on back and forth. First of all, I did solo again in a Taylorcraft, and then got my private license, and then began flying a marvelous plane, the Luscombe. It was all metal, just like the T-6.

00:57:38.160 - 00:57:49.520

Oh, I thought that was the best plane. And then I had my private license. I was building up time in order to get a commercial license, and on the way got my instrument rating.

00:57:50.840 - 00:58:11.840

And then, let's see, and Mother had rented a house seven miles outside of town, and there was gas rationing. Well, I was fearful that I would not get the coupons to get gas to go to the airport, because I felt flying was just playing.

00:58:12.740 - 00:58:36.260

I didn't think they'd consider the fact that I wanted to be a WASP would be important enough to give me the fuel. So I went to a nearby stable—I had brought my saddle—and bought a horse. And we fixed up a stall, a box stall, in Frank Lloyd Wright's garage, and I called my horse

00:58:36.340 - 00:58:53.360

Ration, of course. And every morning at dawn, Rayshun and I would start out to the airport, and I got permission from the date farmers and orange people to let me ride through their groves if I would close the gates, which I was always very good about doing.

00:58:54.400 - 00:59:18.000

And I'd ride down to Sky Harbor Airport and give Rayshun a drink in the canal that went around the airport at that time, and would ride out and ride right across the runway. And they had a big triangular wind tee, and I would tie him to the tee, and he would walk around in the shade of that all day long.

00:59:18.620 - 00:59:46.280

Well, I then had my ground school classes there, and at dusk we would ride home. And that is where I flew and how I flew, and got my ground school and my instrument rating. And then finally I had enough hours to get a commercial license. And let's see, a couple of my experiences in flying and picking up my hours, you know,

00:59:46.280 - 01:00:06.460

I would take anybody for a flight who would go. My daughter of the grocery man, she was delighted to fly, and she signed it in Japanese, because she was Japanese. And my mother had gone back for the summer, and she got me a room with a realtor lady

01:00:06.640 - 01:00:27.280

that had a house. And so I stayed in this room, and I'm not a person that sweats at all, but that summer it got so hot that there were beads of perspiration on my arm. I'd never experienced that, but I still rode back and went back and forth with my

01:00:27.100 - 01:00:43.580

horse, and by then I had a half greyhound and half Great Dane dog, so it too came along with me. Luckily, Mrs. Ketcherside had a little enclosure where I could keep my horse and dog right there.

01:00:44.800 - 01:01:00.140

And I gave her son, Dudley Ketcherside, and Dudley, if you ever see this, contact me. It would be fun to meet you again. So you do that. And so—

01:01:00.140 - 01:01:09.280

What was your dog's name? You know, I do not remember. I do not remember what I called him. He was a big, ugly, lovely thing.

01:01:12.360 - 01:01:23.880

And so we would ride back and forth to the airport, oh yes, and Mrs. Ketcherside wanted to ride. And I had given Dudley one. We had a great time, flew down to Phoenix and back.

01:01:24.880 - 01:01:40.640

And I thought, "Well, Mrs. Ketcherside, would you like to fly to Phoenix and back?" That's what Dudley and I did. "Oh, yes," she said, "I'd love that." And it never occurred to me about the time of day or anything like that, and I said,

01:01:40.720 - 01:02:02.700

"Well, we'll pick a nice sunny day," which of course they all were practically. We got into the plane and got about halfway to Phoenix. The plane was bumping, of course, as it was in the summertime, and very bumping and all. Pretty soon I looked over at Mrs. Ketcher's side, and she did not look very good.

01:02:02.800 - 01:02:27.780

She was sort of green. Pretty soon she lurched her head forward and tried to catch it in her hands, and they were dripping, and what she had caught were her teeth, all of them. And we landed in an airport, not quite at Tucson, which is where we were going, excuse

01:02:28.000 - 01:02:48.280

me, we were taking off from Phoenix, and at this little airport, it would have been Gilpin. Anyway we landed, and the man came up very quickly to the plane and said, "What can I do for you?" And he said, "Well, if you wouldn't mind," I said, "the plane needs cleaning out, and

01:02:48.340 - 01:03:03.940

we'll come in and rest a while if that's all right with you." And he took one look at her too and understood right away. And so we went inside and waited. They didn't have air conditioning in those days, but now this building must have.

01:03:04.000 - 01:03:19.660

It was a terminal, but I don't think we did. 1943 at that time. So we waited a while until the sun started down over the yard arm, and I figured that it would be smoother then, and we'd fly home.

01:03:20.190 - 01:03:35.460

And we did, and she was all right, and I was apologetic. And everything ended all right, and he cleaned the plane beautifully. And she said, "Oh, Sue, what can I get him for doing that? I know everything was a mess."

01:03:35.460 - 01:03:58.120

And she had me go down later—she had asked him apparently what he liked to drink—and she had me fly him down a bottle of whiskey. So I took that down to him and said, "Thanks again." Another trip I had, I had a friend who had driven up to the Buggy Owen Rim up near Prescott,

01:03:58.240 - 01:04:08.800

Arizona. Well, he had two blowouts in his car and called me and said, "Sue, can you fly me up two tires?" I said, "Sure, I can."

01:04:08.800 - 01:04:22.760

And then I thought about their weight and that I'd have to take out the two seats, or did I? But I had sense enough for some reason to go to the FAA and get permission. And I did get permission.

01:04:23.460 - 01:04:42.900

And I took off and we climbed, and I climbed, and climbed, and climbed. got up to the altitude that I would be able to land up on Magio and Rim. He said, "There is an airport here." Well, it was a piece of little land and they had moved the rocks, but he had to be sure

01:04:42.980 - 01:05:02.940

that the cattle would not wander onto it. I landed up there and I think it must have been 5,000 feet high or 6,000. I landed with no trouble, but I worried about the takeoff. But then I figured out, because it was flat, and I figured out if I just let it take off

01:05:03.000 - 01:05:18.820

and just kept going, when we got to the rim, you know, a big drop, that we would take off because we would be flying, and then we would go along. So that was pretty memorable, but it worked out. [Short Pause]

01:05:19.940 - 01:05:27.000

[Short Pause] [Short Pause] [Short Pause] [Short Pause]

01:05:27.000 - 01:05:44.660

And Mother was too, never thinking I'd do anything with it, just fly around, you know. And all this WASP business, I'm not sure she was much in favor of that, but she was a good sport, and it was her idea after all. So she went along with it.

01:05:46.300 - 01:06:03.660

Tell me what happened when you finally—how were you notified that you would be accepted for training? Well, on my last wire to Jacqueline Cochran, I said, "I have my ratings. I have every rating I can get.

01:06:04.930 - 01:06:20.440

You needed to have thirty-five hours and your private license when I join." I said, "I have three hundred and fifty hours now, and I'll be twenty-one on the thirteenth of November." I think I wired the first of November.

01:06:21.360 - 01:06:41.160

She finally wired back and said, "Sue Parrish, if you can pass the physical on your birthday, I will save you a place in 44W6, which is the January class, and will admit you." And that was how I got in. Do you recall the physical?

01:06:42.420 - 01:06:53.920

Not at all. Oh, no, I really do not. They looked in your ears and your eyes and checked your vision and your ears and how you heard.

01:06:55.180 - 01:07:02.660

Very skimpy. Do you recall where you went for that physical? Yes, to an Army Air Base. I think it might have been Luke Air Force Base in Phoenix.

01:07:02.840 - 01:07:16.580

At that point you were living in Phoenix? Yes, because I was there, you see, Mother had come, let's see, November. Mom had already come back out for the winter. So we were there in this Frank Lloyd Wright house.

01:07:17.780 - 01:07:25.960

Actually we were in another house. That house had burned down, unfortunately. Did you ever meet Frank Lloyd Wright? No I didn't.

01:07:28.140 - 01:07:35.680

But he had designed the home that you lived in. Yes he had. Did your mom own that home? No she rented it.

01:07:36.440 - 01:07:58.240

But actually we were in another home by now because the Frank Lloyd Wright one had burned down and we did not have it to live in that winter, that time. Kelly: So when you got your physical, do you remember anything outstanding about that physical? Was it an Army doctor that gave it to you?

01:07:58.270 - 01:08:11.300

Lowdermilk Honstein: It was. And I guess the most outstanding thing to me was the joy in having passed it, knowing I could go to the WASPs. Then did you have an interview with anyone?

01:08:13.050 - 01:08:22.800

No, I didn't. Or did you have to take any kind of test? Just the physical. And then how were you notified to report?

01:08:24.080 - 01:08:45.580

I do remember, well from this wire in Jacqueline Cochran, I guess she must have sent me papers then about what to do and where to report at Sweetwater. I remember the smartest thing my instructor ever said to me was, "Sue, I know you're leaving now to be in the WASPs, and I know that their qualifications are for thirty-five

01:08:45.620 - 01:08:59.680

hours and a private license, and you have—" Oh, and I also got my instructor's rating. I also had that, and had one student. And I think I saved his check. I wish I still had it, but he paid me.

01:09:01.260 - 01:09:21.120

And the smartest thing he ever told me was, "Sue, I know you have all this experience now, but don't tell anybody." He said, "You enter the WASP as though you had no time at all, except your thirty-five hours, and just fly their way."

01:09:21.120 - 01:09:29.800

And he said, "And you'll get along just fine." And he had me farewell. Good advice. Well, it was good advice.

01:09:30.140 - 01:09:41.880

And I followed it. sense enough to follow it. I realized that was good. How did you get from Phoenix out to Sweetwater?

01:09:42.300 - 01:09:53.460

On a train. We were to take a train, or I was, because there were not any others at that time from Phoenix going. I do not know.

01:09:54.840 - 01:10:10.200

And on the train, and it stopped at Sweetwater, and I got off the train and there was this great big cattle truck there. And other people at that time then did get off the train. We must have switched somewhere and gotten onto something else, but anyway, here we were.

01:10:10.920 - 01:10:35.340

And got onto this big open cattle truck and rode out to Avenger Field. I remember seeing the sign. At that time, what did you think this training program was for? At that time, for me, I thought that training program was going to teach me how to fly any

01:10:35.440 - 01:10:56.960

kinds of planes, but was going to let me fly pursuit planes so that I could fly them from the bases where they were made, the plants where they were made, to the bases from which the men then would fly them overseas. At that time, then, you felt that all the girls were being trained for the Ferry Command?

01:10:59.840 - 01:11:21.860

Well, yes, although during the—farther along in my training, I realized that there were other jobs, too, like instructing flying personnel around, flying airplane parts around to places where they were needed. And when I graduated, we were given a sheet of paper to fill out for what we really wanted

01:11:21.960 - 01:11:38.140

to do. I remember the lunches and on the tin trays and all. Now this was at Bryan, this wasn't at Sweetwater. Let me go back and ask you, when you got on this cattle truck to go out to Avenger, did

01:11:38.200 - 01:11:51.320

you meet then other girls that were in your class? I did, yeah. There were a few of us. When you got to Avenger Field, do you recall seeing airplanes or barracks?

01:11:51.420 - 01:11:58.420

And how you felt? Barracks I remember seeing because that's where they took us. And no, we couldn't see the planes. I didn't see them then.

01:11:58.860 - 01:12:18.900

Then what happened after that? When you got out to Avenger and you got off those cattle trucks, what happened? I think that we were all lined up and told to march, which we had never done, and we got our uniforms there, whether they fit or they didn't fit.

01:12:19.080 - 01:12:28.460

Most of ours did. I think when you all and the earlier girls went through, some of them didn't fit at all and were huge. And ours were not bad.

01:12:29.700 - 01:12:42.320

Describe the barracks where you were going to live, and how long did you think this program, training program would last? Well, I knew it would last 11 months. No, was it six months?

01:12:42.440 - 01:13:04.700

Seven months, last seven months. And the barracks were long white buildings that were divided up into rooms, and we were six to a bay, and we shared one bathroom between us with the other bay. So there were twelve of us sharing that bathroom.

01:13:05.800 - 01:13:26.300

I wonder now. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make in training? Well probably how we lived and how we had to make our beds and have them so tight and exact and also being on time.

01:13:29.000 - 01:13:39.620

That was a big adjustment. Had you grown up not having to make your own bed? Yes, Ginger always made it. I didn't even pick up my room, I didn't know how to.

01:13:39.920 - 01:13:51.260

This was a big adjustment. Huge, yeah. How many bags did you bring with you to Sweetwater of clothing? Do you recall?

01:13:51.560 - 01:14:11.980

I think just one, because I think we knew, I knew the situation, and I knew I'd have a uniform to wear, so I didn't need many clothes. Describe your five bay mates. We were all in the D's and E's spellings, because I was Delano, and Elizabeth Erickson,

01:14:12.220 - 01:14:47.800

and Helen Ferguson, and Irene Crum, and somebody, Eleanor Fairchild. And Eleanor Fairchild and Elizabeth Erickson were two that were killed during training. I think that Elizabeth Erickson was a collision, and Eleanor Fairchild, I think the oil line broke and we were told she could not see, and of course she could not land the plane,

01:14:49.060 - 01:15:06.860

so that crashed. That was way along in training, but you kind of remember those. Okay, let me go along in order here and then we'll get to those crashes. When you first got there, what were some of the rules and regulations?

01:15:07.020 - 01:15:19.320

Do you recall how many hours, what did the training consist of? McMillan It consisted of, first of all, as I recall, calisthenics in the morning. We would march everywhere.

01:15:19.420 - 01:15:31.900

We learned to march pretty quickly, and even to meals everywhere. And what would you do as you marched? They'd say, "Hup, two, three, four. Hup, two, three, four."

01:15:31.900 - 01:15:37.420

And we hadn't learned any songs yet. But later on we did. But eventually you learned songs? We did, yeah.

01:15:37.420 - 01:15:45.120

We'd sing. Do you recall some of those songs? "Rugged but Right," I remember that one. Loved that song.

01:15:47.120 - 01:16:04.680

And some of the others. Oh, yes. He had a little girl and taught her how to write, or was that her family who did that? But anyway, when she grew up, she fell in love with a salesman.

01:16:05.860 - 01:16:23.400

I kind of understood what happened. I did not know very much in those days. Kelly: You learned pretty fast, did you? Well, I did, but I didn't because, you know, it was strange.

01:16:23.640 - 01:16:49.120

Even though I had no discipline, I disciplined myself very much as far as boys were concerned. In fact, on one date I can remember of a boy that I dated all the time because Mom knew he was a good driver, so I could go out with him. I remember he put me out at one night and made me walk.

01:16:49.280 - 01:17:09.620

He told me he was going to make me walk home, and it's because I wouldn't smooch. I think I felt at that time and growing up that if you didn't really love somebody, you shouldn't kiss them. I don't know.

01:17:10.780 - 01:17:20.540

I didn't listen to my feelings or something, but I sure stuck to that. Do you remember how old you were when that happened? Kissing somebody? Uh-huh.

01:17:21.100 - 01:17:40.320

Yeah, I do. I was in the garage at home at the lake, and I must have been around nineteen, I guess, and my sister had a couple of boys visiting her that had come from Arizona. And it was George Judson.

01:17:40.450 - 01:17:58.960

Oh, he was the best-looking person I had ever seen. And he kind of grabbed me in the garage and he kissed me. That was wonderful. But you know I felt badly because he was Barbie's boyfriend, and so I never dared follow it

01:17:59.080 - 01:18:03.840

up or anything. Did you ever tell Barbie? No, no. I did know better than that.

01:18:09.360 - 01:18:16.720

Miss Barbie would get mad at me, and she'd chase me around the kitchen with a knife, if you please. Yeah. I didn't like that.

01:18:16.720 - 01:18:29.480

Kelly: She wasn't really serious, though. Reifeldt: I'm sure not. But one time she pushed me down and I just laid there. She got terribly scared, and I thought, "Well, serves her right."

01:18:31.660 - 01:18:54.280

Back at Avenger, describe what a typical day would be like. We'd get up in the morning at 630 and, excuse me, had calisthenics, and then we'd go to breakfast and we'd have breakfast. I suppose they were bacon and eggs and toast and really quite good.

01:18:54.400 - 01:19:01.660

I ate on these tin trays. And then— Did someone serve you the food? Oh, no.

01:19:02.100 - 01:19:17.300

We had tin trays and went in line, and we would not even serve—well, we would be served the food then. We could say what we wanted, but they were quite meager if you wanted two helpings. You had your helping, and that was it.

01:19:19.600 - 01:19:30.400

But the meals, I recall, was really fairly good. Of course, I did like to eat. Then after breakfast, what would you do? Then we'd go to ground school.

01:19:32.520 - 01:19:48.240

Describe ground school. What courses did you take? We took navigation and mechanics of the airplane, and then I think we also had night school. We'd learn how to fly at night.

01:19:48.300 - 01:20:03.420

And then the link trainer, that was part of ground school. And that was a small machine that we even have here in the museum. The instructor would come over and get the box and close it, and you would be completely in the dark.

01:20:04.220 - 01:20:26.660

And he would be at a desk outside here with a little instrument with a map on it. And then he would tell you to take off and do various things, and he would tell you to fly to Waco or to fly to Austin or different places that were on the map. And you'd be in there with your stick and throttle and would be flying the plane and

01:20:26.700 - 01:20:40.300

you could hear the box creak as you'd make it lean from one side to the other or climb or let down. And you'd fly completely on instruments in this box because that's all you could see were them.

01:20:41.000 - 01:20:55.920

I kind of liked that. And some of the other courses, do you recall taking Morse code? Oh yes, we did take Morse code, and I can still do a bit of it. What was the purpose of Morse code?

01:20:56.600 - 01:21:14.020

Morse code was how messages were sent sometimes, and you had to receive them if there was an SOS. But also the purpose of it was for us to identify the low signals that were given in the instrument flying.

01:21:15.540 - 01:21:37.500

Because in the instrument flying in those days there was a cone and a beam going out of it, and you'd fly on the A side, which was the right side, or the N side was the left side, but preferably you'd fly right in the center. And on the A side you'd hear "dit da, dit da, dit da," and on the N side it was "da

01:21:37.800 - 01:21:55.020

dit, da dit." But in the center they would come together and it was just a steady tone. And if you could keep the plane right in the center, then you'd fly over the cone of silence. And it was silent, and you'd cross it, and then you'd pick it up again, but it would

01:21:55.080 - 01:22:13.540

be "da dit, da dit," and "dit da, dit da" on the opposite side. And they would change sides there. In instrument flying, and also in this little link trainer, we would have to fly fades, we called them, to know where we were.

01:22:13.640 - 01:22:28.540

You would say, "All right, here you are. Now fly to such and such." And you would have to pick up the identification of the station with the Morse code. And then—but you did not know whether to fly in the direction you were already flying

01:22:28.540 - 01:22:45.960

or whether to turn around, making a turn, a procedure turn, or to fly back. So you'd turn down the radio as low as you could. If you were going toward the station, the sound would increase. If you were going away from the station, it would get quieter.

01:22:47.020 - 01:23:07.220

And if you were going away, you'd make this procedure turn and then fly back inbound to the station. And you'd tell him your position and when you would get there. Excellent. That's an excellent description of why you have Morse code, I've heard that.

01:23:08.820 - 01:23:40.160

I'll call Doris and see if she won' come to dinner with us. Ok. Describe for me the first airplane that you flew at Avenger. Well, that was the Stearman PT-17, and it was in January, and pretty cold. And of course, remember, we had those leather outfits that were lined with sheepskin.

01:23:40.900 - 01:23:53.960

Thank goodness they were warm. And our sheepskin-lined helmets. And it was in the PT-17, the bi-wing plane, and you'd hop up onto the wing with your parachute.

01:23:54.380 - 01:24:15.500

I can't imagine doing that these days because it was heavy. It weighed as much as my western saddle, and to haul it up there with us. It was an open cockpit, and we would look out through the two wings, and we had the struts that would go there and cross.

01:24:17.300 - 01:24:36.120

It was a fun plane to fly, of course the biggest one I had ever flown. my instrument rating, I got that in a Stinson, and that was a big plane. Do you recall your first instructor at Sweetwater? Yes, I think I do.

01:24:36.430 - 01:24:53.300

He was a handsome, tall, half-Hawaiian man, and I've tried to find him, but I haven't been able to. He was an awfully nice guy, but I don't remember his name, and I can't find him in our yearbook.

01:24:56.080 - 01:25:16.940

Kelly: Recall your first solo in a Stearman. Did that make an impression on you? Lowry: You know it must have, but I really cannot remember that. You know because I had that, I had 350 hours behind me, but still it was—well, no, I

01:25:17.020 - 01:25:30.220

do kind of though. It was in the wintertime, and I think we were out at one of our—what did we call those other fields? At an auxiliary field, yes.

01:25:31.230 - 01:25:49.640

Oh, I remember I didn't drink coffee because I didn't like it. That's all we had to drink out at the auxiliary field, and the only way we could stay warm, so I did start drinking it, and of course then began to like it. Describe the auxiliary field.

01:25:50.320 - 01:26:07.940

What was it used for? Litz: The auxiliary field was a square out here, and as I recall, two sort of runways running from corner to corner. But we could also land any way we wanted with the wind, because there was a big windsock

01:26:08.020 - 01:26:23.220

we could see, and we knew we had to land upwind. land with the wind coming toward us, as you always do have to do. And so we landed there. Kelly: Were there buildings out at these auxiliary fields?

01:26:24.110 - 01:26:37.940

Martin: I think there must have been, yeah, that we could go in and get a little bit warm, weren't there? I don't think I remember any buildings. No, there were.

01:26:37.940 - 01:26:50.680

Kelly: Perhaps an outhouse. Martin: Yes, an outhouse, but that's all we had, was just that. Did any of your instructors, were they ever aware of how many firing hours you already had?

01:26:51.620 - 01:27:12.000

I didn't let anybody know, not even the other students. In the middle of the barracks area there was a little wishing well. Describe that well and what was it used for? Oh, that's right.

01:27:12.940 - 01:27:28.200

wishing well, I guess we would throw coins in it to hope we could have good luck. But also, we were tossed in it after we soloed, and it was cold. I do remember that, just freezing. But in we went.

01:27:30.920 - 01:27:47.840

But you were so happy to have soloed it, that was all right. Do you remember any incidents that happened when you were in primary training? How long did your primary training last? Lowry: A third of the seven months we were there.

01:27:48.340 - 01:28:10.460

No, a fourth, because we had primary training and then instrument training in the AT-6. We jumped all the way up to that for instrument training. And then we had cross-country, as I recall, in the BT-13. And then for advanced we went back to the AT-6.

01:28:11.620 - 01:28:26.680

I think that's how it was. INTERVIEWER: When you were in primary training, did any of your baymates wash out? GRAY: I don't think so. I think I kept the same baymates except the ones that were killed.

01:28:26.880 - 01:28:43.140

INTERVIEWER: Why were some students washed out? What were you told would be a reason to wash you out? The reason to wash you out would be if you couldn't do what they were asking of you and do it in precision ways.

01:28:44.440 - 01:29:08.500

Like I remember that, and this was all new to me, and if it was a ninety-degree turn you were to turn ninety degrees and roll out on the point. And the landings had to be, you know, three points. And of course, to be on time and get back and not get lost, be able to find yourself,

01:29:08.680 - 01:29:30.780

but that was in navigation. And it was, I think primarily it was that if you couldn't keep up with what you were supposed to do, that when we had stalls and we had aerobatics, and to come right out on the points with those, one or two turns in the spins.

01:29:31.980 - 01:29:41.900

Do you recall check rides? Yes. Describe what a check ride was for. A check ride was to check, to see that you could do the various things.

01:29:43.140 - 01:30:00.320

And we had Army people get in the plane to give us check rides, and often they were very gruff. You had to fly just exactly for them and it was always, "Yes, sir." Never "No, sir," because you didn't say that.

01:30:00.420 - 01:30:19.040

So it was, "Yes, sir." And he would talk to you through the mic and it was a little hard in the Stearman because of all the wind blowing by to hear in your helmet, your earphones. And they would check everything that you had learned up to that point, including spins

01:30:19.700 - 01:30:31.780

and stalls. As far as the personnel who ran this training school, what kind of personnel were stationed at the base? They all seemed very nice.

01:30:31.880 - 01:30:43.200

There was Miss Deaton, she was kind of the head of everybody, and there was a Miss Hagen, I think. Or was she a student? I don't remember.

01:30:43.540 - 01:30:55.480

But they all seemed very nice. And the commanding officer of the air base? He was a man, and I did not ever knew him, but apparently he was nice too. But he was Army Air Force?

01:30:56.000 - 01:31:11.020

Yes, he was Army Air Force. And we considered ourselves Army Air Force too, because we were completely under Army Air Force rules, and we were not to date anybody. That was a reason to wash you out.

01:31:11.480 - 01:31:26.720

Yes it was. And if you got pregnant was a reason. I think one or two of our class did have that happen. They were washed out, but I didn't know that would happen.

01:31:27.420 - 01:31:45.760

At the time that you were in training, what other uniform did you wear other than this zoot suit that you flew in? We had a dress uniform with pants or a skirt and the light blue shirt with a tie if you wanted.

01:31:46.000 - 01:32:02.580

No, I guess we did, yes, we wore ties. And a jacket, a Santiago blue jacket, a long tunic-length jacket, like a man's coat, really. Were you issued this uniform before you graduated?

01:32:03.800 - 01:32:18.860

Yes. Because that's what we would wear to town, I think. Surely we did, and we had this beret that we would wear. I don't know.

01:32:20.300 - 01:32:34.840

Do you recall wearing maybe tan slacks and white shirts? Oh, yes, excuse me. Yes, we had pinks, and they were tan slacks and white shirts. I think maybe the other was when we graduated we got this other uniform.

01:32:35.740 - 01:32:48.780

Yes. Yeah. Do you recall as a class would graduate, what would the trainees do for that graduation? We would march.

01:32:49.580 - 01:33:15.600

We would march right in front of the commander, the Army commander, who would come there to see us and oversee us, and see that we were up to snuff. And he would give an address, and then we'd graduate and we marched out, as I recall. While you were in training, do you recall Jacqueline Cochran coming to the Air Base?

01:33:15.760 - 01:33:36.060

Yeah, she would come to all of the graduations, and we were very impressed with her. And she was very good friends with Hap Arnold. In fact, it was thanks to Hap Arnold that she was able to start the training part of the WASPs, whereas the WAFs were already the experienced pilots.

01:33:37.760 - 01:33:57.300

Jacqueline Cochran started the training part of it. I remember she came to every graduation. I remember I heard that at the very first graduation of any—and was that down in Houston, Texas, I think. She was very ill at the time and was running a temperature. And of course

01:33:57.400 - 01:34:20.960

she told her doctor, "I've got to be down there. My first class is graduating. How shall I do this? Can you give me some pills so I'll feel better and can do the trip?" And he said, "You know, Ms. Cochran, I'm sorry, but you are in no shape to go to a graduation. got to stay in bed, and I don't like to tell you that, but you must, you're very

01:34:22.760 - 01:34:37.860

ill." And he left, and she was determined to come to the graduation, so she called a nearby funeral home and rented a hearse and said to put a bed in it and everything, and told them her condition.

01:34:38.640 - 01:34:50.080

She got in bed, and she went down to the Houston graduation, and she was there, and then she She came back up. She must have been quite a lady. I did not know her well.

01:34:50.380 - 01:35:04.240

Kelly: Dedicated. When you finished primary training, did you get some time off? Lowry: I do not think we did. Maybe a weekend.

01:35:06.320 - 01:35:20.480

You know something that surprised me? When I came home, Mother gave—it must have been a little time off because Mom gave me a big party. And I noticed this flagpole and flag out in her yard, and I thought, "Well, Mom, what's

01:35:20.560 - 01:35:29.740

that for?" "Well," she said, "everybody who has somebody in service is supposed to fly a flag, and that's mine." And bless her heart.

01:35:31.560 - 01:35:46.260

I thought that was neat. Kelly: Okay. During the time you were in training, were there some weekends that you might get off on a Saturday or something, and how did you spend that time?

01:35:46.950 - 01:36:09.100

Mildred: I had found a stable nearby, and I got a fellow classmate interested in riding, Jean Hickson, and she and I would go out to this stable and we would rent a couple of horses and we would go riding and have a wonderful time and then come back. Did you have your car with you?

01:36:09.290 - 01:36:16.060

Mildred: I did not. No, and I don't think she did. I don't know how we got a ride out there. I don't think we hitchhiked.

01:36:17.000 - 01:36:34.820

Sure not. We probably got—maybe someone gave us a ride. Kelly: When you finished primary and then started into a transition phase with the AT-6, what was the difference between that PT and the AT-6?

01:36:35.000 - 01:36:59.040

Well, the biggest difference was it was a low-wing monoplane, the AT-6 was, and it had a retractable landing gear, which was wonderful. The stearman was fabric and the AT-6 was all metal like the old Luscombe I flew. Kelly: While you were in training, there were also cadets, male cadets, in training at bases.

01:37:00.240 - 01:37:19.520

What was the difference between your training and what the male cadets were training? Lowry We did everything they did except we didn't have gunnery school, or fighting training school, but otherwise it was absolutely the same, aerobatics and all.

01:37:21.250 - 01:37:34.000

Kelly What was the most fun thing you did in that AT-6? Lowry I think the aerobatics. I loved those, and pulling it up into a stall and having it fall off and go into the spin,

01:37:34.940 - 01:37:51.260

or rolls. I loved to do rolls. And I loved instrument flying, really liked that. In the AT-6, do you recall your instructor in that phase?

01:37:53.360 - 01:38:08.880

And you did change instructors in each phase. Yes, that's right. And yes, actually he is an instructor who still comes to the reunions. I think I had him at one time, and it probably was in advance, I might have.

01:38:10.480 - 01:38:36.520

I liked him a lot because of the plane I was flying, you know. Do you recall anything unusual that happened to either you or one of your classmates? Well yes, and I forget which went first. I think it was Elizabeth Erickson was killed first, and in a collision I think in the traffic

01:38:36.620 - 01:38:48.620

pattern above the field. And goodness knows there were so many of us flying around now that I think about it. Now it's no wonder. Interviewer And she was a baymaid of yours?

01:38:48.620 - 01:39:00.520

She was a baymaid. What happened when you heard that she was killed? Well, of course I was shocked. And I began to think, I better be careful.

01:39:01.420 - 01:39:18.600

As far as her body, then, what happened? Did one of your classmates go home with her body? I think one of them must have, yeah. What did you girls in that bay—what was your responsibility as far as her clothing

01:39:18.600 - 01:39:29.200

what happened to her belongings? LittleWoods-Yeah, I think we all gathered them together and packed them in her trunk for her and got them ready to go home. Interviewer How did that affect the rest of you?

01:39:33.040 - 01:39:52.400

LittleWoods-Well, I think just—I'm afraid we all thought that, well, flying is dangerous and we knew it. And unfortunately it got one of us. And that we have to watch ever so more carefully and not let anybody run into us or we into

01:39:52.500 - 01:40:10.620

somebody else. Can you describe Miss Erickson? Oh, yes, she was a very sweet girl and always happy, always with a smile. She was a little girl and just a very, very nice person.

01:40:11.220 - 01:40:29.880

said anything wrong about anybody or against anyone. Were you ever in touch with her family? No, she was not a close friend, but she was just very nice. And then the next day, did you go right back out and fly?

01:40:30.320 - 01:40:52.520

Yes, as though it never happened, except somebody, of course, must have moved into the Bay. And I don't remember the other baymates, the other two, because it happened twice. Yeah. Kelly: And the other baymate, you don't recall what happened as far as how she was

01:40:52.620 - 01:41:09.900

killed? Litz: Yes, I do. She had flown to one of the nearby places, like Addison maybe or somewhere, and it was said that her oil line had broken, which would just slather her canopy full of oil, and she

01:41:10.000 - 01:41:23.960

could not land. And you know, now that I think about it, no, but we had goggles. Oh, but in the T-6, of course, we did not. And so that she could have tried to look out the window, but I guess if oil was coming

01:41:24.000 - 01:41:42.640

back, she could not see. And you just didn't have the experience then to even with your canopy closed, keep it closed and kind of judge how you were and to land. Can you describe, what was that trainee's name?

01:41:45.720 - 01:42:03.100

Yes, Eleanor Fairchild, or what, Elizabeth Erickson, Eleanor Fairchild. Okay, could you describe Eleanor? She was a quiet girl, kind of reserved, very, very nice, and tended to her business and flew hard and studied hard.

01:42:04.100 - 01:42:16.800

So did little Elizabeth, of course, too. Do you know whether or not one of your other classmates went home with those bodies? I'm sure. I'm sure.

01:42:16.820 - 01:42:40.420

Can you tell us what was the compensation for her family, for the families of those girls, what did they get or what happened? Lee: Oh, Jacqueline Cochran must have written them a letter and gave them her condolences. Kelly: But as far as the military, were they allowed to have an American flag on those

01:42:40.520 - 01:42:47.260

caskets or do you know? Lee: I do not know. I do not know. I never heard about it, so I bet they were not.

01:42:47.840 - 01:43:02.520

Or as far as any military funeral or military benefits? Litz: No. And benefits, in those days, I don't think we were thinking about benefits. But no, there weren't any.

01:43:03.800 - 01:43:27.940

No. Kelly: As you finished that second phase of training and then went into instrument training, anything unusual happen during instrument training that you recall? I think the most unusual thing was that he let me take off under the hood on instruments,

01:43:28.020 - 01:43:43.360

and I don't know if he was really supposed to do that or not, but he did, and that was thrilling when you realize you had done that. I remember our baymates, we would always have a baymate ride with us, not necessarily a baymate, a classmate.

01:43:44.480 - 01:44:08.340

And we would fly for each other and we would be the person watching out while the other person in the front flew the instruments and did all that. Kelly: And then when you finished that phase of training and went into cross-country training, can you describe one cross-country trip that you might have made?

01:44:11.280 - 01:44:19.580

Perhaps the long cross-country. Where did you go? I'd have to look in my logbook. I don't really remember.

01:44:20.080 - 01:44:33.140

I do remember that we would take off. We had two other landings we had to make. It was sort of a triangular cross-country trip. And, we'd take off and land wherever it was, and then we had to go in to where we

01:44:33.240 - 01:44:52.160

were and get a signature from that person to prove we really had landed there. And then we came off and took off for the other place, and the same thing with the signature would come back to the plane. And then finally on the final leg, we flew back with our two signatures to prove we had

01:44:52.240 - 01:45:13.120

done what they said. During the last months of your training, it was now summertime. Do you recall how you kept cool in those bays since there was no air conditioning? a fan, but we did have a little tiny swimming pool where we could use that too, but it was

01:45:13.180 - 01:45:32.080

not much of one. But no, I just recall the fan and trying to stay cool. Of course, you know, I graduated in June, so maybe I was leaving at the hottest part of the time, except I was to return right away too.

01:45:33.200 - 01:45:54.340

During the time you were in training, were you given bed checks? Oh, I think so. Yeah, I'm sure we were. While you were in training, were you aware of what girls who had graduated, what they were now doing?

01:45:56.660 - 01:46:14.320

I think we were, because when we got the slip of paper asking what we'd like to do, everything was listed on it of what they were doing. We were surprised about some of the things and didn't know everything they were doing. I sort of thought surely they were all ferrying planes.

01:46:17.180 - 01:46:30.340

Before your graduation, you got your new Santiago blue uniform and you were given a choice, supposedly. What was your choice? My choice was to fly pursuit planes.

01:46:31.160 - 01:46:51.460

I wanted to fly fighter planes and ferry them from the base where they were made to the plant where they were made to the base that then the men would take them. I could just see myself doing that. And there were two spaces for that, and I said I wanted one of them.

01:46:53.060 - 01:47:06.000

What happened on graduation day when you got your assignment? What were you assigned? I was assigned—or as second choice, I chose to continue with instrument flying, to do that.

01:47:06.700 - 01:47:27.440

And when I got my paper, it said I would go to Bryan Army Air Force's Instrument Instructor school in Fly AT-6s. I thought, "Well, it's not pursuit school, but at least it's my second choice." So that was where I went.

01:47:27.920 - 01:47:52.060

I later learned that the two girls that got the pursuit school places ended up being instructors in a Stearman and a BT, I think, or something like that. So I was very happy I hadn't gotten those spots. describe your graduation. Did your mom or dad or anybody come for graduation?

01:47:52.700 - 01:48:20.820

No, mom had already come out to visit the school. She had driven out, well with her chauffeur they had come out. And she then was in, no, and then she had gone back home, So she was way up in Michigan, and no one, nobody came to it. Do you remember how you felt when you put on that new uniform and it was graduation

01:48:21.060 - 01:48:40.380

day? I was just thrilled, really, really pleased, just excited. What dignitaries came for your graduation? I like to think Ab Arnold came, I don't think he did, and Jacqueline Cochran was there.

01:48:42.820 - 01:49:02.860

What did all the other trainees who were still in training and not graduating, what part did they have in your graduation ceremony? Well they marched as we had marched, and I think that we marched in, but it seems to me we were sitting in the two front rows or something, and they marched and did their

01:49:05.260 - 01:49:18.800

formations and then sat down behind us, as I recall. And who gave you your wings? I think Jacqueline Cochran did. Proud?

01:49:19.280 - 01:49:34.560

Yes, very proud and thrilled, really thrilled. What happened then, after you received your wings, you're through training, and you're going to be stationed at Bryan. Where did you go after you graduated?

01:49:34.740 - 01:49:42.340

Did you go home? Yes. That's when Mom gave me that party that I mentioned. Describe the party.

01:49:43.420 - 01:49:55.440

Oh, it was a party with everybody there, all of our relatives and friends of mothers. Did you wear your uniform? I did. In fact, she gave it just after I arrived.

01:49:55.540 - 01:50:02.760

I sort of walked in on it. So yes, I was in full dress uniform. Kelly: How neat. Lowry: Yeah, it was.

01:50:02.780 - 01:50:14.620

Kelly: Were you at the lake at that time or you were at your home in town? Lowry: I was at my home in town. Kelly: Did your dad ever see you in uniform? Lowry: I don't think so.

01:50:19.180 - 01:50:34.500

Were there other young people who were in military uniform, for example, male? No, they were all gone, away. So you were the star of the party? I was indeed.

01:50:39.300 - 01:50:53.880

Were some of your relatives there also? Your aunt? So my aunt and uncle, and I'm sure Grandma and Grandpa must have been there. Oh no, because Grandpa had died by then, but Grandma Carol must have.

01:50:53.880 - 01:51:10.680

Kelly: And how about the couple that sort of raised you? And how proud were they? Biddy: Very, very. Kelly: At the end of that leave time, then, you're in Michigan and you have to go to

01:51:10.760 - 01:51:28.080

Bryan. you get to Bryan? You know, I remember one of the flights either back to Mom's or back to Bryan was in Braniff Airlines, and they flew near, at least, or I thought through, quite a violent rainstorm.

01:51:29.300 - 01:51:46.960

And I thought, "Well, now what are they doing flying in something like this? They shouldn't be here." Because there was lightning and bouncing around, you know, and yet they seemed to be flying right through it. But also I knew that Brian would get there because that was

01:51:47.040 - 01:52:10.800

their reputation, that they would always fly you there. When you arrived at Brian, to whom did you report? There were two of us. Joan Michaels was the other one. Now, was that her married name Joan Michaels. Well, that's who she is now, so probably Joan Laverne or

01:52:10.890 - 01:52:34.120

something like that. And we both went to Brian. Dr.—or rather, Commander Duckworth, not Commander, anyway, he was— Colonel Duckworth, yes—was there. He was the head, and we walked in to his office, and of course wanting to be very proper. We were it, sort of dress stance and all.

01:52:35.260 - 01:52:56.920

And we stood in front of his desk and saluted, and he saluted back, and he didn't even say relax or anything. So we stayed at, whatever we called it, attention. And he said, "Now I want you two girls to realize one thing, and that is I didn't

01:52:57.240 - 01:53:15.060

ask that I get two wasps. I don't want you here." And when you wash out of the training course, you're gone, dismissed. And that was our greeting.

01:53:17.300 - 01:53:46.420

And it was then that I determined one thing, and that was—and I told Joan later, I said, we're gonna make him like us, and we're just gonna turn him around." And you know we did. We got through, we, you see, we had to go in through the instrument instructors course, and I remember one time in Michigan, you have wonderful

01:53:46.600 - 01:54:14.380

apples, Jonathan apples and all kinds, and I bet my instructor that he could not fly the instrument patterns, this particular one, on instruments with his hood on and all while I'm in back, that I bet him a bushel of apples that he couldn't fly it within five feet five degrees and five degrees and what

01:54:14.380 - 01:54:29.320

with the other, there was another, oh and five miles per hour. And he said I can and I will and I'll take you up on that bet." And he did. And I sent for the apples and they came.

01:54:30.500 - 01:54:45.860

Everybody enjoyed them. Fred Butterman sent those. Who were your instructors to teach you how to instruct instruments? I only remember Lewis Hallett.

01:54:46.340 - 01:55:02.960

Lewis C. Hallett was his name. And it ended up that he lived right up here in Grand Rapids. Was he a civilian or an Army officer? I think he was an Army officer and in the Army.

01:55:04.280 - 01:55:26.920

When you went through this instruction period, was it just you and Joan, or were there male pilots also going through the instructor's training? male pilots, because the purpose of this school was to bring back the men from overseas who had been flying on the A and the N signal only. Well, hardly that.

01:55:27.660 - 01:55:56.360

But they didn't have complete cockpits. All they had were the needle, ball, and airspeed. The way, that's what we had when we went into the WASP. That's all the way we had flown, too. But at Bryan, they had two new instruments, the artificial horizon and the radio compass.

01:55:58.740 - 01:56:16.540

We had those so that we could stabilize our planes just immediately, because it was immediate showing you that we had the horizon. If the wings were like this on the horizon, you were in a turn that way. Or if they were like that, you were turning that way.

01:56:17.420 - 01:56:39.620

And you still had the needle ball and airspeed, but these you had for immediate control. And the directional gyro was the other one, as well as the magnetic—no, he had that. The directional gyro, which would always—there was a needle on the cockpit, and it would always point to the station.

01:56:40.520 - 01:57:00.260

And then when you turned, unlike the magnetic compass, which north and south particularly would swing, if you turned one direction it would swing the other direction first. Then it would speedily catch up with you. And in a 180-degree turn, for instance, it would go past where you were going.

01:57:00.900 - 01:57:15.900

Or in a 360, it would again go past where you wanted to pull out. But with a directional gyro, it would turn with you, and you saw all the headings, and when you stopped, it stopped. And it was a wonderful new instrument.

01:57:16.780 - 01:57:34.580

So they were brought back from overseas to fly these instruments, and then go back to fly planes that had those, or take planes back, I suppose they did, and fly these. And it helped in the flying a great deal. And I just loved those instruments.

01:57:34.840 - 01:57:47.980

Were there other WASPs already at Bryan when you arrived? No, just us. Where did you live? We lived on the field.

01:57:49.310 - 01:58:03.500

We lived in the nurses' quarters where the nurses lived, and that's where we had a little pool. I'm not sure we had one at Sweetwater. I think I was remembering the pool we had at Bryan, which wasn't much of a pool, but

01:58:03.400 - 01:58:15.700

was a little one, where we could swim. Where did you have your meals? In the mess hall with everybody. That was where I learned to eat marvelous avocados.

01:58:16.440 - 01:58:35.660

They were split in half and just with a little salt and then ketchup on them with a teaspoon. They were good. If that's all you have, they were very good. How did you spend your spare time at Bryan, your off-flying time?

01:58:38.260 - 01:58:47.800

You know, I don't remember. Did you meet any— Maybe studying, because we had ground school and all, and maybe studying and keeping up with that.

01:58:48.300 - 01:59:08.960

How long did this course last that you had to take? I think it was a four-week course that we took. And at the end of four weeks, then what did you begin to do? By then there were other WASPs there, but we were called in to Colonel Duckworth's

01:59:09.060 - 01:59:29.300

office again, I think, or either we or I. And he said, "Well, relax." I mean, he relaxed us after we came in at detention. And he said, "We do have two spots here and we would like you to stay on with us."

01:59:30.020 - 01:59:42.600

And of course, secretly we were just delighted. And so we did stay on. Kelly: Was that the first time you had talked to him since he told you that you probably wouldn't make it?

01:59:42.920 - 01:59:58.140

Litz: Yes, that was the first time. One thing we noticed about Brian was that any time a storm came along, everybody would try and get an airplane and fly in it, including Colonel Duckworth. He loved instrument flying and he would study the storms.

01:59:59.360 - 02:00:16.740

And of course we were not allowed to do that because we were not graduates yet. And even when we were, we were girls so we did not get the planes. Kelly: Then once he told you you could stay, then what was your job? And then we were connected to the engineering division.

02:00:18.920 - 02:00:34.080

And when the planes, when the men would ground loop an AT-6 or something, they were very prone to that. And if you're not used to a plane like that, as they weren't, they were coming back from flying bombers, I suppose, and fighters.

02:00:35.740 - 02:00:53.700

Then they'd fix it, and then I'd take it out to be sure that it was fixed, to be sure it was flyable. Were there any incidents that happened at Bryan that you recall that were different? Well yes, now and then I'd get in the plane.

02:00:53.780 - 02:01:08.980

In fact, I remember one time Dad and Gladys had come out to visit. They wouldn't let me give my father a ride because he was the head of the family, but they would let me give Gladys a ride. Isn't that interesting?

02:01:10.060 - 02:01:27.760

Which I did, and I remember flying the plane and saying to her, "You know, Gladys, if this plane misses once again, I'm going to have to report it and tell them that the engine isn't fixed." And she didn't like that very well, but it was all right.

02:01:28.680 - 02:01:46.360

But I did take it back then and reported it. And we had a big board that we would check before we'd fly a plane to see what they had fixed and what the condition of the plane was supposed to be at that time. And then we would pay special attention to that part of it.

02:01:48.040 - 02:02:07.380

That was exciting, I liked that. Kelly: So this course that you took in instruments, were you ever able to use all that information to teach instruments? Reifeldt: No, not to teach, but they would let us practice instruments in our aerobatics.

02:02:07.480 - 02:02:29.040

We would get one of the planes now and then. And we were allowed to fly—when we could get a plane, we could go as far as a hundred miles away and come back. And at Thanksgiving time, I had arranged to fly with one of the instructors who lived

02:02:29.040 - 02:02:48.180

up in that direction. So that I—and then I got them to say that my hundred miles could start from Chicago to fly to Kalamazoo so I could have Thanksgiving with Mom. And so I got them to do that.

02:02:49.100 - 02:03:01.660

How did you get from Bryan to Chicago? I went—I was with my instructor and he flew it all that way. Oh, and then your time started at Chicago. I said, "Wouldn't that be all right?"

02:03:01.720 - 02:03:19.620

They said, "Well, all right." Tell me what that Thanksgiving was like. The weather wasn't very good, and I didn't get there for Thanksgiving Day. I spent it in the USO with other military people who were stranded also.

02:03:20.780 - 02:03:38.900

But the next day was better, and of course I was calling Mom and all. So I took off the next day and flew right across the bottom of the lake, because that was where they told me to fly. We already had a few controllers.

02:03:40.040 - 02:03:58.540

And flew to Kalamazoo and found the house, and of course buzzed it a little bit, and then found the airport and went out there and landed. And we had a wonderful Thanksgiving dinner. And turkey and mashed potatoes and peas and gravy and ice cream for dessert.

02:03:59.320 - 02:04:09.800

Do you recall who else? My eye, it goes fast. It does go fast, I'm afraid. These are what, forty-minute tapes?

02:04:09.820 - 02:04:35.120

They're forty-minute tapes. Who was at that Thanksgiving dinner? My sister and her husband and their children were there. Kelly: By this time, were your grandparents still alive?

02:04:35.680 - 02:04:52.700

No, Grandfather had died, Grandpa died in 1932, so a long time ago, or '37, or '42, oh dear. At any rate, he would not have been alive. No.

02:04:53.510 - 02:05:04.900

Kelly: But your aunt and uncle that you were fond of, were they there? They were cousins. Oh, she said uncle, though, yeah. No, just us.

02:05:05.680 - 02:05:16.000

Yeah. It was sort of spur of the moment by that time, because it was the day after Thanksgiving. Yeah. And then how about your trip back to Texas?

02:05:17.000 - 02:05:33.220

The trip back to Texas. Well, of course, I stayed for Thanksgiving dinner, stayed for a little while afterwards, and it was beginning to get dark. Maybe it was my instructor or somebody said, "Whatever you do, don't ever land at Midway

02:05:33.280 - 02:05:49.300

Airport at night for the first time. Never do that." Well, here I was, because it was getting dark. I was in contact with the control, and he sent me on a course, and it was right over

02:05:49.500 - 02:06:02.760

Lake Michigan. I said, "You know, I don't think I'm supposed to be over Lake Michigan, but I'm here because you've flown me here." And he said, "Well, what in the world are you flying?"

02:06:02.760 - 02:06:16.240

And when I told him, he said, "You certainly aren't. What are you doing there?" I said, "Well, you put me here." And so then he gave me directions to get back to Midway, and I saw what they meant.

02:06:16.480 - 02:06:38.560

Because when you'd line up for the airport at Midway, it of course was a black hole, But then it had the runways, but the highways, all those roads came into it too. And if you were not very careful, I could see where you would get confused. But I landed there all right, and I was to meet my instructor the next day.

02:06:39.440 - 02:06:56.960

And I did not say anything about that, but it was okay. And it was snowing, you see, too, so that I was picking up a little bit of icing. out here. Kelly: So you flew back to Bryan?

02:06:57.520 - 02:07:15.740

Reifelt: Yeah, I flew back to Midway, and the next day we went back to Bryan. Of course, he flew it because my hundred miles had been used. Kelly: When did you first hear about—and how did you feel when you heard about the fact that WASP would be deactivated?

02:07:16.440 - 02:07:33.760

It was announced to us that we were going to receive a wonderful Christmas present. We'd be able to be home for Christmas. That was the last thing any of us wanted. So it came as a lightning bolt out of the blue.

02:07:35.160 - 02:07:54.160

Never dreamed that we would be disbanded. Kelly: In looking back, why do you think the Watts were disbanded? Well, because the men were starting to come back, and our whole purpose in being a WASP was to take place of the men who had gone overseas to fight.

02:07:55.380 - 02:08:11.100

And since they were coming back, of course, our jobs were up. Kelly: While you were—after you graduated from Sweetwater, did you go to any other school than the instrument school? Did you go down to Florida to OCS?

02:08:11.640 - 02:08:28.680

No, no. I visited a friend or two that were nearby at bases, but that was all I did. No, no other schools. Kelly: When you were deactivated, did the air base do something special for the WASP?

02:08:29.110 - 02:08:45.300

Litz: I don't recall that. Of course, I don't recall so much of this. Kelly: How then did you get from Bryan—where did you go when you were deactivated? back to Kalamazoo. That may have been when that Brannith flight was.

02:08:47.500 - 02:09:01.940

And then what were your plans? Well, my plans were to get a flying job. And first I applied at the Upton Company and asked if I could be their first pilot and fly the mail around.

02:09:03.460 - 02:09:18.180

Mother said, "Well, Sue?" "Oh, first of all, let me go way back in training in Phoenix. I was on an allowance." I said, "You know, Mom, I will need a little more of an allowance to continue this flying

02:09:19.340 - 02:09:31.440

here." "Well, Sue, you go and see your Uncle Donald." I went in to see Uncle Donald, then the head of the Upjohn Company. He asked me questions.

02:09:31.600 - 02:09:45.640

I had written him first a formal thing saying what I'd like to do and asking for more of an allowance. Then he made me come in and talk with him. He was a very humorous but sarcastic person.

02:09:46.500 - 02:09:59.280

You'd never know if he was joking or just straight. He said, "Well, write me a letter describing what you're going to do, and then I'll think about it." That was how he handled that.

02:10:00.160 - 02:10:17.980

So I did, and apparently he approved because my allowance was increased. But then now, what did you ask me? Kelly: And then I asked you what you did after we were deactivated. Mildred: I tried to become a pilot, their first pilot for the Upton Company, and Uncle

02:10:18.060 - 02:10:41.060

Don finally decided they really just weren't ready for that yet. So that was turned down. So then I wrote all of the airline companies and sent them my qualifications, 750 hours I think by that time, and could I please be a pilot for your airline?

02:10:42.540 - 02:11:02.320

And they all wrote back no, but American Airlines wrote back. Some didn't even answer. American Airlines wrote back and said, "Dear Ms. Delano, if you were but a man with these qualifications we would hire you in a minute."

02:11:02.720 - 02:11:16.540

And you know what my feeling was? I was so pleased that they felt that if I were a man I was that good, that they would have hired me. But at that time they were not looking for female pilots.

02:11:18.880 - 02:11:40.080

So I joined Mother in New York City, and I had met the man who had loved her for many years, who lived in New York. And I said, "Oh, for goodness sakes, Mom, Mary Howard. He's a dear person."

02:11:40.080 - 02:12:02.340

And he was a composer, piano composer, and played the piano. And so they were engaged, and I put on an engagement party for them in New York City and took them to Le Chambord, which was one of the best French restaurants. And I learned later, also one of the most expensive.

02:12:03.840 - 02:12:20.560

And when I was at Sarah Lawrence, my birthday present from Dad and Gladys was to give me money to go to Le Chambord with a friend, and I took two friends. And Dad wasn't very happy about that. "Why did you take two, Susie?"

02:12:21.440 - 02:12:44.200

But anyway, here I was at my little engagement party of mother and Howard and Howard's sister and Aunt Jane and Uncle Don and me. And the bill came, and I thought I had plenty of money, but I didn't. I said, "Uncle Don, I don't have this much money with me."

02:12:44.200 - 02:13:06.620

And he said, "Well, that's all right," and he took care of the bill. I had no idea about money. Oh, one of the things I did in Bryan—or else it was Sweetwater, because we were finally getting checks, and with my check I bought a silver belt buckle and cowboy belt, which

02:13:06.680 - 02:13:22.180

I had earned, and I just loved that. Well, but where were we? We were trying to get jobs. So I joined—I didn't want to be a control tower operator for any of those other jobs

02:13:22.280 - 02:13:34.780

because I wanted to fly. Well, that was turned down. So I joined MOM, and then I joined the Motor Corps because I knew I knew New York. I remembered how the streets went and everything.

02:13:35.560 - 02:13:47.720

And I joined the Motor Corps and started delivering eyes to the eye bank, and that was what I did. Who was in charge of the Motor Corps? Was it the government?

02:13:48.380 - 02:13:56.960

Yes, I think. No, the Red Cross. Red Cross was in charge of it. And you delivered eyes?

02:13:58.700 - 02:14:10.020

To the eye bank there. And then Mom and Howard planned to go to Kalamazoo, so I did too. By this time had they married? Yes they were married.

02:14:10.280 - 02:14:19.360

Yeah, they were married in Juhura. Did you go to their wedding? I think Betty and I stood up for it because they were just married in a little courthouse. They didn't want a wedding.

02:14:22.220 - 02:14:40.940

So they came to Kalamazoo and you came back to Kalamazoo then? What did you do in Kalamazoo? Reddick: Drove for the motor car and went out to Fort Custer where we would bring amputees—it was a big hospital center—out to Gull Lake to enjoy the day and then take them back.

02:14:42.060 - 02:14:53.840

Yeah, that was what we did. Kelly: Did your mom and Howard then live in town? Reddick: Yes, and at the lake. I started showing horses again.

02:15:00.180 - 02:15:20.380

This was when Bill had gotten a load of horses that they had brought from the Dakotas. They were little wild ponies, and he had chosen this one pretty dark gray horse. But he was the one that Prince sewed that I told you about. He did not like him very much, so I bought him from him for $200.

02:15:24.000 - 02:15:45.840

And then I started training him, and he was the one who would get in just right for every jump because I taught him to jump also. And then I had this great big Irish hunter also, and I would take them in my trailer around to the horse shows and go in junior horsemanship classes, as we called them.

02:15:46.060 - 02:16:10.680

all their equestrian classes, I think, and would win ribbons with them. It was funny because half the time I would be dressed half Western or half English because I had both horses, you see, the English and the Western horse in these classes. And then they held for the first time a stock horse class up in Northville, Michigan, and

02:16:10.680 - 02:16:26.800

it was the first one that Michigan had ever had. And you'd rope a sack and your dally or rope and the horse would pull back as though it were a calf. And then you'd do figure eights and it would have to change leads.

02:16:28.200 - 02:16:48.220

And then it was sort of a show and ride part where you'd do whatever you wanted to do to show how the horse would do it. And the Ford Motor Company was donating the trophy for it, and it was a picture of three horses behind a new Ford car.

02:16:49.840 - 02:17:02.960

And they had brought in a cowboy with his horse so that they could be sure to win the trophy. And then there was all the judging and everything, and we went through all our paces, and Smokey won it.

02:17:04.560 - 02:17:13.420

And Ford was not very happy about that. Kelly: That is your horse? Reifelt: It is my horse, yeah. Kelly: Were you wearing that belt that you bought with that first trip?

02:17:13.420 - 02:17:36.200

Reifelt: I was, I was indeed. With each outfit I put that belt on. Kelly: And then what did you do next? Well, I would go out to Palm Springs with Mom and Howard when they would go out there.

02:17:40.700 - 02:17:59.720

And I met a young man on the Smoketree Ranch where we used to go, a nice-looking young man. And I was very impressed because he was able to blow hard-boiled eggs out of their shell. I was really impressed with that.

02:18:01.260 - 02:18:13.440

Aunt Jane thought he was very nice, too, and invited her to a party that she and Uncle Don were giving. We got to know each other, and he was a good writer. I liked that about him.

02:18:15.820 - 02:18:35.800

So then we went back to Michigan for the summer, and this was now 1947. At that time, he was working at his uncle's plant up in St. Catharines, Ontario, and he was the manager of it. He would come down and visit me in the summertime, drive back and forth.

02:18:36.880 - 02:18:58.280

By then, I was involved with the village players in Richland, Michigan, and being in the plays. Poor Pete, he would come down and I would practice until twelve or one o'clock at night. We didn't like that very well, we didn't say anything. But we became engaged and then in April of 1948 we were married.

02:18:58.630 - 02:19:12.400

Kelly: Describe your wedding. Lowry: Oh, it was a big wedding. We were married in our big St. Luke's Episcopal Church, now that I was baptized and all. We were married there, confirmed.

02:19:15.680 - 02:19:37.520

It was a big wedding. You know, I remember it couldn't be terribly big, the reception couldn't be awfully big even though our house was, but I wanted to invite so many people. And Mother said, "Well, Sue, invite them to the wedding, but maybe not to the reception."

02:19:38.660 - 02:19:54.680

And I couldn't understand it, but she thought it was the way to go, and I guess it was, because I wanted to invite everybody that I had met, and the stars who would help me. You know, everybody, I liked everybody. And so that was how we handled that.

02:19:55.120 - 02:20:13.000

What was your dress like, Sue? It was beautiful. It was a white satin dress with a train the way they are, and a white veil that went over it and a sort of a thing, a cornet, not a cornet, but maybe it did have a little cornet

02:20:13.620 - 02:20:27.320

style to it, but very pretty. Did you meet his family? Yes, I did. His mom and dad had divorced, and I met his mother, who worked at Marshall Fields, in

02:20:27.400 - 02:20:46.840

the better-wear clothes. And she had wonderful taste in clothes. And then I met his uncle and his wife in Brewster, New York. And he had lived with his uncle most of the time, oh, because poor Pete.

02:20:47.660 - 02:21:10.120

They went to the foxhounds and all, and his dad did. And this one time, when Pete was just nine, his dad was riding this horse who had shied at something and slammed him over into a tree, and his dad had fallen off. Well, what happened was it had broken his spleen, and in those days there was nothing

02:21:10.120 - 02:21:20.580

they could do. And he was in the hospital, and in those days they would not let Pete go and see him, and he died. So sad.

02:21:21.320 - 02:21:32.080

Things were so different then. Kelly: Right. Beside being a good horse person, what were the qualities that you saw in him that made you fall in love?

02:21:33.760 - 02:21:49.540

Litz: I knew he'd be a good parent. He was in the Marine Corps and he told me his story about not getting his wings, but he had gone through and would have. And he just was a good, solid person, I thought.

02:21:51.700 - 02:22:09.920

And I don't know if I thought about discipline or not, but I felt he'd be a good father. I felt that he would manage money well because he was also used to it in his uncle's side of the family. After the wedding, where did you go on your honeymoon?

02:22:10.980 - 02:22:27.540

We had a business type honeymoon and went down to Mexico, drove down to Mexico, went to Acapulco. And our real honeymoon was one week there in a hotel that housed us back in sort of caves the rooms were.

02:22:28.420 - 02:22:46.920

And they were at the place where the people, the natives, would dive off and into the water way far below. I'll never forget when they dove off, the beach down there had no water in it, but it would come in by the time they got there.

02:22:47.180 - 02:23:00.200

Oh my, I would never have done that. But of course they knew how and how to time the water. And Pete would send back reports, and I would type them using the typing I had learned in school.

02:23:01.560 - 02:23:16.980

And it was a wonderful honeymoon, and we went around to different places, Flores and different places in Mexico for the company. Kelly: And then where did you live? Morgan: We lived at Gull Lake.

02:23:17.040 - 02:23:41.440

Mother lived in Kalamazoo, and we lived at Gull Lake, not in our old house, but at another the cottage that was being sold by Aunt Weldon, Uncle Arthur—they weren't really, but we called them that—in a neat place. And Aunt Jane wanted us and Uncle Don really to live in Kalamazoo so we'd be near Mother.

02:23:42.040 - 02:23:57.660

Well, we felt that fifteen miles was near, so we lived out there and started having our family. Kelly: Tell me about your first child. We were born in April '48 and she came in November '49.

02:23:58.720 - 02:24:09.020

And Mom was beginning to get discouraged, as you might think. Can't you start your family, Sue? And Pete? And we finally did.

02:24:09.980 - 02:24:31.460

Oh, and I was so pleased, because she was healthy and sound and a wonderful baby, beautiful baby. And then a year later, Katie came along, and we were pleased with her, too. And then we thought, "Well, we better take our breath a little bit and have a spin here."

02:24:31.460 - 02:24:51.920

So we let two years go by before we had Bill—Will now. And oh, I was so thrilled to have a boy, just so thrilled. And then a year and a half later, Press came along. Oh, and that thrilled me, another boy.

02:24:52.960 - 02:25:05.800

Oh, I thought. And then two years after that, David came along. And I thought, oh my, we're another boy. And I couldn't have been happier.

02:25:06.640 - 02:25:28.280

But then we decided five were enough. We had five and six years, and that was quite a lot. How were their childhoods different from yours? They were all disciplined, because I had had none, and really Pete had not had much either.

02:25:29.720 - 02:25:48.120

We both felt they should. We loved our time in the service, he in the Marine Corps and me in the WASPs, and it was very disciplined and directed. How were you involved in their activities as they were growing up and going to school?

02:25:48.560 - 02:26:14.940

Well, we were in PTA, Parent Teachers Association, went to their plays and things that they were in, helped them with homework as much as we could. But when they got into the new math, I couldn't do it at all. But you know, way back with Mitchie, that wonderful colored man, he was doing math that

02:26:15.020 - 02:26:21.820

way. He could look at a problem and say, "Well, now Sue, can't you see that that's the answer?" And he could.

02:26:21.920 - 02:26:31.300

He somehow thought that way. Yeah. While the children were growing up, did you continue to fly at all? No.

02:26:31.800 - 02:26:55.680

said to Pete, "We must not fly until we have time to really be the best again." And so in 1959 he came home one night and he said, "Here, Sue, have a martini." You know, we used to have two martinis every night. And he'd give me that.

02:26:56.800 - 02:27:09.140

My sister had kind of become a bit of an alcoholic. She and her husband had divorced. She had moved to France. I did not know this, I guess, quite that soon.

02:27:10.340 - 02:27:33.240

One day I realized that with all my five children, as I awakened one morning, I could hardly wait for five o'clock to come and our martinis. That kind of scared me. I started then, when Pete would say, "Here, have a martini," I'd have one, but I'd

02:27:33.300 - 02:27:48.280

leave and dump it out and come back with an ice full of water, water full of ice with water. And he never knew, because I knew I couldn't handle that. But anyway, he said, "Here, have a martini," so I did.

02:27:48.900 - 02:28:10.340

And he said, "I hope you won't be angry with me, but I own half an airplane." Well, I could not get in it fast enough at that point. And this was just, you know, our children, David was just in school by that time, and I just got enthralled with flying again.

02:28:11.500 - 02:28:31.700

And from that point, I really was not that good a mom. We were still strict about them and had our rules, and they had told us later, Mom and dad were so glad we had our rules. Because our neighbor boy even came over one day who was completely no rules, anything

02:28:31.980 - 02:28:46.700

went. And he came over one day and Mike looked at me and said, "You know, I wish we had rules." Because they liked knowing what they could do and what they couldn't do. They liked the parameters.

02:28:47.260 - 02:29:12.880

Could I ask you, in pouring out the drink and getting water, were you afraid, what were you afraid of with Pete? You know, I don't think I did it quite that soon, but I did later, and yes, I was afraid that he would feel he was drinking alone, and I didn't want him to have that disappointment.

02:29:14.020 - 02:29:28.240

I wanted him to think that I was still drinking with him. What kind of airplane did he buy? He bought half a Bonanza, and it was with the chief pilot of the Upjohn Company. Were you ever able to fly for the Upjohn Company?

02:29:28.700 - 02:29:46.940

Never, never. In fact, Pete and Ted both—and Ted was whom Martha Gilmore married. His parents were very best friends with Uncle Don and Aunt Jane. So at last Uncle Don had a son even before she married him, you might say.

02:29:48.500 - 02:30:06.860

And Pete and Ted were on the, or were the, search committee to find a pilot for the company. And he got responses, because the Upjohn Company, my word, a pilot, you know, got many responses. And Uncle Don, too, looked at them all, even though he had said for Pete and Ted to pick one out.

02:30:07.300 - 02:30:29.720

He wanted to check everything. And this one resume came back from Pan American Airways, who recommended this pilot, Joe Betty. But they said, "The only thing that bothers us about him is that he's too cautious." Uncle Don said, "That's the one we're hiring."

02:30:30.800 - 02:30:49.440

It is the one they did. I remember on one flight, by then we had a baron, and we were flying down with them with their Gulfstream, with them, you know. But we were going to meet in Florida in a particular spot on the way where they had

02:30:49.480 - 02:31:11.280

to stop for lunch, to have lunch with them. And the waitress came around and said, "Well, what would you like to drink?" And then she finally asked me—you know, everybody had ordered Coke, tea, coffee—and she asked me and said, "Well, I'd like a double martini, please, on the rocks."

02:31:12.620 - 02:31:34.820

And Joe Betty's mouth just fell open, and so did his co-pilots. And he said, "But Sue, Sue, we have this rule. We never fly or we never drink even before twelve hours if we're flying." couldn't bear but smile, and he realized then I was just making a joke.

02:31:36.560 - 02:31:56.800

Who would take care of the children when you would go on a flight, for example? We had wonderful help. Actually, let me go back to the babies. I can remember the first person I had to come and help me with the babies was a nurse that

02:31:56.740 - 02:32:14.020

mom had had, and she now was becoming our babysitter. She said, "Now Sue, just remember, don't ever go up to your baby while it's crying. Wait until it's stopped crying, then go up. That way you won't spoil it."

02:32:14.020 - 02:32:28.420

Well, my word, I listened to her. And that was my beginning of how to take care of children. What kind of grandmother was your mother? I didn't stick to that, but I did a little bit.

02:32:29.080 - 02:32:45.600

What kind of grandmother was your mother? A very doting grandmother who wanted to come out, and she'd come out some, not a lot, but some. But she didn't approve of the way we were bringing them up at all, I think because of

02:32:45.720 - 02:33:03.080

being so strict, because she had no rules. And yet she would hear from her friends about what good children they were. They were darling children. And so she was kind of betwixt and between.

02:33:04.020 - 02:33:17.120

Were they ever able to visit your dad in New York? No, they never did. By then he had moved to California actually. He and Gladys had, and they had divorced by that time.

02:33:20.260 - 02:33:45.680

Did you remain close to Gladys after they divorced? I did, but not close that I knew what she was doing really, though, no. She moved back to Woodstock because they divorced, and she married the lawyer that got them to the divorce.

02:33:45.940 - 02:34:00.880

Apparently that happens fairly often. I want to ask you about your mom. Did she go back into theater or was she in theater after she married Howard? Yes, and he was too.

02:34:02.800 - 02:34:21.020

I think George Washington slept here. At any rate, they were in a play together. At a community theater? Yes, in Kalamazoo we have a very fine community theater and that was the civic auditorium

02:34:21.100 - 02:34:33.660

that Grandpa built. And there are a lot of good people, actors and actresses. Well, he must have been very proud that his daughter would perform in a play in an auditorium that he built.

02:34:33.720 - 02:34:46.840

He was, yeah. After you got the Bonanza and then you bought another airplane. And then what did you do? After the Baron.

02:34:47.520 - 02:35:05.560

After the Baron, we bought a citation. We got our JET ratings and bought a citation, or vice versa, and we had it as spare unlimited S.P.A.R. Meaning, we were going to have a charter company.

02:35:07.060 - 02:35:20.540

And I know then, Pete was very disappointed with me because I wasn't in there keeping up the books and taking care of all the money part of it. What happens, I had never done anything like that. I wanted to fly.

02:35:21.660 - 02:35:38.260

So I was one of the pilots. It wasn't rented as much as we wanted it to be, so finally we sold it to CalAero, which was our local fixed-base operation. They bought it and used it as a charter plane.

02:35:39.140 - 02:35:55.700

And then we would rent it from them when we wanted to use it. Then what did you use it for, just pleasure? Going out to Vail, we always went to Vail for the vacations to ski, because we had a cottage, a cabin out there.

02:35:56.700 - 02:36:20.900

And Vail opened in 1962, and we went out to visit in '61, bought a plot of land, the farthest one away from where the village was going to be. And you had to build it right away or they wouldn't sell you the land. And we bought this little acre, I think it was an acre or two, for $10,000 and invested.

02:36:22.120 - 02:36:31.700

And now I guess if—oh and then—well anyway. So we'd always go there and ski. And would you take the children? Yes.

02:36:32.400 - 02:36:51.760

And the first year we had no plumbing, but we had a little stream that trickled by the cabin and we collected our water. He put the eaves trough in and the water would come out and trickle off and we'd collect the water and heat it up and pour it in these big containers and drink it and it was wonderful.

02:36:52.780 - 02:37:08.880

And then we'd go down for a shower every few days at a friend's. And we skied there for years. Would you go out and spend Christmas there, for example? Thanksgiving and then Christmas and then Easter.

02:37:10.280 - 02:37:24.800

No, I guess Thanksgiving we had at home so we could have it with Mom. Yeah. And then what did you do next? Let's see, we had the citation, which we would fly.

02:37:26.520 - 02:37:43.000

And then, well, I heard about the warbirds. Oh, of course. Then one day, Pete thought, "You know, I love that steerman we used to fly in the Marine Corps.

02:37:43.180 - 02:37:57.100

Wouldn't it be fun to have one of those?" And I thought, "Well, sure," except I didn't like it very much because of all the wind blowing all the time. And yet usually it didn't bother me at all.

02:37:59.880 - 02:38:18.140

The pilots for the Op-John Company had seen one down in Texas, just a wonderful one, that a father had bought his son, but son wasn't interested, so it was for sale. They told Pete about it, and Pete called the man and offered the money that he was asking over the phone.

02:38:19.140 - 02:38:36.740

The man said, "Well, don't you want to come down and look at it?" Pete said, "It's already been inspected, and I would like to have it very much." So he sold it to him, and one of the CalAero pilots flew down to pick it up and bring it back.

02:38:37.640 - 02:38:49.760

And Pete tried to get me interested in it, but I kept remembering the AT-6. And I said, "You know, hon, what I'd really like is a T-6, if you're going to have the Stearman. Maybe I could have that."

02:38:49.760 - 02:39:13.880

Well, he found one right here in Battle Creek and got it for my birthday. So then I had a T-6 and he had a Stearman and I had heard about the warbirds. Then Gunther Balz, who was from Kalamazoo and had won the Reno races long about that time with his spiffed-up P-51, had a Wildcat.

02:39:14.700 - 02:39:33.520

And he said, "Pete, that's really what you should have, you know." Well, Pete thought, "Maybe I should," and got the Wildcat. And then I thought, "Well, you know, I've always wanted to fly a pursuit plane, and I sure can't fly your Wildcat.

02:39:33.520 - 02:39:54.160

I couldn't even see out of it, let alone wind up the landing gear as you need to do in that plane." And so I had joined the Warbirds by that time and had flown to Oshkosh, and then Pete came over in the Wildcat this one year, and we talked with all the warbirds and said, "What

02:39:54.260 - 02:40:04.920

would be a good plane for Sue? A lady-like plane?" And Frank Sanders and everybody said, "Well, a P-40 would be—" Oh, that sounded great to me.

02:40:05.760 - 02:40:26.500

So Frank Sanders, who had a Sea Fury, found one for us down in Addison, Texas. It was all unpacked, but partly in a box. It did not have a spinner or propeller, but Frank said, "Oh, that would be easy to find." So we said, "Okay," and he was going to rebuild it for us.

02:40:27.460 - 02:40:51.320

So we hired him, and he took a trailer down there and drove it back to Long Beach, California, where he had a base. This was in 1970, and three years later, Pete sent me back out there, and I was trying to visit it every month or two, and also visit Dad at the same time in California.

02:40:51.540 - 02:41:09.940

He was up in San Francisco. And he said, "Sue, you go out there this time. Take your parachute with you, and don't come back until you bring it back." And I told Frank that, and they were practically through with it, but he seemed to be delaying

02:41:09.980 - 02:41:27.180

it after three years. And also he was building some smoke generators, and I could catch him with those under my wing and they'd hurry up and be working on the P-40, you know. And so he said, "Okay, we're ready for it."

02:41:27.320 - 02:41:56.440

And so I took lessons and rode in the back of a T-6 with this man who raced his T-6 at And then he'd let me fly it and land it and everything from this back seat. And I'd have that sensation of the long nose sticking out, albeit a huge wide nose. And then Frank would have me taxi the P-40, and here was this sleek long nose, and I felt

02:41:56.540 - 02:42:12.640

quite at home with that after the T-6. So I'd taxi it around the Long Beach Airport, and this one time I came back. Also we had put a seat in the back that I could sit in and at least see what it flew like.

02:42:13.820 - 02:42:27.240

I had had Frank promise me that he would spin it, so I'd have the confidence to know it would come out of a spin. He said, "Okay." This one time he was doing aerobatics in it, as we would do now and then.

02:42:28.080 - 02:42:49.840

He pulled it up in this steep stall and stalled it over and got it into a two-turn spin. I yelled at him, I said, "Frank, I didn't say spin it with me in it." He chuckled, I guess, and flew back to the airport. I was so shaky and I could hardly stand up when we got back.

02:42:49.920 - 02:43:10.300

He took my parachute from the back, put it in the front, and said, "Time for you to solo it." I was excited, but I was worried at the same time. I taxied it out there, and I heard later that Frank had called the tower and said, "Now

02:43:10.340 - 02:43:26.780

it's Sue in it today." This is her first flight, and the control tower operator hesitated. He said, "Ever." In anything, you see.

02:43:28.020 - 02:43:45.720

I heard that later. So I taxied out with my throat and my mouth and took off just as we had decided that I would take off and go out in the practice area and do some turns and things and stall it, which I did.

02:43:46.640 - 02:43:57.600

And then come back. Well, I had to go around a couple of times. When he said, "The first time I want you to approach it, let everything down, and then go around."

02:43:57.600 - 02:44:16.500

Because what the plane wanted to do, you see, was immediately roll. And so I had learned to—I was with everything down, and I'd give it the power slowly, and then put up the flaps first, milk them up, and then bring the landing gear up. And I went around.

02:44:16.680 - 02:44:33.380

Well, unintentionally, I had to do it two more times for planes that were coming in and airline and something else. And then, by the time I landed it—and it was a nice three-point landing—it rolled out on the taxiway and I turned off from it.

02:44:34.660 - 02:44:49.240

But I couldn't see because tears were in my eyes. I was so excited. I had to stop there a minute, and the tower said, "Is anything wrong?" And I sort of burbled back, "No, I just can't see."

02:44:51.340 - 02:45:02.640

I think they knew what happened, I don't know. By this time, how old were your children? Were they away from home by this time? This was in '70?

02:45:04.660 - 02:45:16.820

'73 this was. In '56, the last one came. So they were away at schools and things like that. What did they think of their mother?

02:45:19.920 - 02:45:31.900

Oh gosh, you poor guys. I'm sorry. Really? What did your children think about their mother in a pursuit aircraft?

02:45:32.800 - 02:45:53.220

Well, they thought it was pretty neat. I'll tell you one of the things first. With the citation, I'd fly them to school. Now, we always had a co-pilot because now it was a charter plane. I'd always fly them to school and we called it the Parish Express, I guess, or something like that. They thought

02:45:53.220 - 02:46:17.680

it was pretty neat. The boys went to Holderness School in New Hampshire, and the girls to St. Mary's also in New Hampshire. Poor David, he was our youngest, and so musical. If he just said, "I want a music school. I don't want to go to Holderness." We would have done that, but we didn't. So they thought that was pretty neat. If there was room, we'd

02:46:17.720 - 02:46:39.420

take a friend or two with us if they were going to a nearby school. They did. They liked it, and their friends liked it. I'd fly by the dock at the lake, and I'd do a roll. They just thought that was great. Of course, their dad would do the same thing, and he's a wild cat.

02:46:39.900 - 02:46:56.740

Finally, he got a Corsair. Kelly: So you were able to bring that P-40 back cross-country? Reifeldt: Oh, yes. We were able to bring it back on that trip, and we plotted the whole course and where

02:46:56.820 - 02:47:09.520

we would land and all. We were going to fly straight across the south and then up because the weather wasn't all that good. Frank would fly it and I would sit in back, because he did not want me to fly it.

02:47:10.220 - 02:47:39.440

But when we got to our last stop, I think it was Louisville, Kentucky, and I said, "Frank, this is my plane and I am going to fly it to Kalamazoo. I will be happy to get you a ticket on a plane, or you can sit in back, but I am flying it." And by gosh, on the way back home, I turned around and looked at Frank, and he just shook

02:47:39.480 - 02:47:54.960

his head. And I know he was thinking, "What am I doing in the back of a P-40 with a girl flying it?" And no controls, of course. And when we arrived in Kalamazoo, there was a storm right over the airport.

02:47:55.960 - 02:48:13.320

So I thought, "Well, Frank, I'll take you out to Gull Lake and show you where I live." And by that time the storm would have flown off probably, and it had, it moved away, and we came back and landed. And oh my, that was exciting.

02:48:14.280 - 02:48:31.100

Could I ask you, why do you think the Upjohn Company never hired you as a pilot? Well they weren't ready to have any pilot at that time. They just—Uncle Don, as you see, when he said, "That's the one we'll hire," He was the most cautious one.

02:48:32.800 - 02:48:53.800

Flying still was new in the '40s. They had never had a flight operation, and they were getting their mail perfectly well and the people were going on the airlines just fine, so that they weren't ready for an air force, a flying department yet.

02:48:54.020 - 02:49:06.900

But when they did get ready, were you still available? And they just didn't hire you, but they hired a male instead? Oh, sure. Yeah, they didn't want to trust a female, you know.

02:49:07.880 - 02:49:28.900

Besides, this was a male with airline time, and he had learned how to fly the mountains. The airlines did say this, he could make better time than anybody else, but if there were a storm, he was just too cautious. But with all that time, it was logical that they would hire a man with all that time.

02:49:31.020 - 02:49:48.520

Once you got your P-40 back to Kalamazoo, then what did you do next? Went to Oshkosh. The first year, it did not have any paint on it. It was just anodized aluminum, because I could not spare the time to paint it.

02:49:49.140 - 02:50:05.820

And besides, I did not know what color scheme. So he had these camouflage books, and we saw this one that had this pink airplane. And I, of course, Pete, too, said, "Well, look at this." And he liked that color, and I loved the color.

02:50:06.660 - 02:50:26.420

And we sent chips down of the paint to the Smithsonian to verify which one, and they sent it back. And that's the color we painted it, the Libyan Desert paint scheme. And then, with the mouth and the eyelids—I didn't do that, but Frank DeRike painted

02:50:26.520 - 02:50:49.520

those schemes, and I knew I wanted it to smile. So I pretended that in the command that plane came from, from North Africa, they had an excellent artist, and this is how he painted them. And my flying tiger, that was how he painted that, you see, and the shark's mouth, and

02:50:49.520 - 02:51:09.780

together because apparently in those days that the P-40 was flown in the war the rules were very relaxed about all the the nose art and things that you could have. So that's what I pretended and verified my scheme that way. Warbirds didn't think much of it at first I'll tell you.

02:51:10.780 - 02:51:26.920

So this particular airplane had been flown in? No, I pretended it had. I didn't say it, but I just—you know, you had to have some sort of a color scheme. So that was my reason for doing it this way.

02:51:27.570 - 02:51:37.360

Do you know what this airplane had been used for? Oh, yes. It was one of the last ones. It was a P-40N, and it was one of the last ones developed.

02:51:38.440 - 02:52:04.060

And it later was bought by a school who had practiced on it, cutting it apart and welding Putting it back together, oh dear, poor thing had a terrible life. And then finally some people bought it to race it, and they realized it wasn't fast enough to be a racer, so they again took it apart and had it in this box, which is the

02:52:04.060 - 02:52:23.480

way we found it. And explain that color scheme that you selected. It was a pink color scheme, sort of between this color, kind of, a little bit, but it a sandy colored scheme. They called it Desert Sand. It was very pinkish because the Saharan

02:52:23.620 - 02:52:51.700

Desert is pink, or pinkish. They wanted it so that when the enemy would come from above looking for the planes, they would not see it very well because of being the color of this desert. The people shooting up from the bottom would not see it very well because The bottom of it was blue like the sky, and that was their reasoning because of the plane.

02:52:52.100 - 02:53:07.300

When you took that airplane to Oshkosh, did you fly it for the public? Yes. And what maneuvers would you do? We would fly in fly-bys, we called them, and we'd go one after the other, and we'd

02:53:07.500 - 02:53:28.620

right down low and then come up and then do an oblong circle and come around again. And I never flew formation, I didn't care for that. Nothing's ever happened in formation flying, but nor has anybody flown together, but nor had I ever had formation flying because that was—we

02:53:28.700 - 02:53:41.340

weren't taught that—because that was for the military to go overseas and fight. At some point, you decided to enter an air race. Tell us about that. I did.

02:53:41.700 - 02:54:05.500

I wanted to go in the Powderpuff Derby, which I had always heard about. And I had by then learned that one of my friends, well, Jean Hickson, whom I rode horses with at Sweetwater, had flown several of the races. So I called her, because she lived just down here a ways in Fort Wayne, I think, and said,

02:54:05.580 - 02:54:17.160

"Would you like to go in a powder puff derby with me?" "Oh," she said, "I'd love to." And she came up, and we were going to plot our route, because we knew what it was. They give it to you ahead of time.

02:54:18.340 - 02:54:45.460

And she came out and looked at our bonanza—or was it a baron? I think we had a Baron by then, and looked at the plane and said we had it completely equipped with the best radios and all, and looked at it and she said, "Well, we'll have to take off these aerials and we'll have to do this and we'll do that," and

02:54:45.500 - 02:54:58.580

I said, "Well, we're going to have to ask Pete," and she said, "Well, just explain to him that's what we're going to do." And so I kind of could not do that, but I asked him. And he said, "Oh no, we are not.

02:54:59.200 - 02:55:15.420

We are not going to do anything to that plane." And I said to her, "We are going to have all the aerials, Jean. We are not taking anything off." "Well," she said, "all right, I will still go in it, and we will see if we can

02:55:15.520 - 02:55:31.360

get there first." And so that would thrill me. It disappointed her, you know, because she was used to doing it the proper way. But so we flew out—we didn't fly the route backwards, we just got out there as

02:55:31.520 - 02:56:00.540

quickly as we could because—oh no, yes we did, we flew the route backwards, which was a Northwest route that year, from Los Angeles—no, from near San Francisco, Hayward maybe, all the way across to Atlantic City in New Jersey. Partway through the flight, I realized how disappointed she was, because she almost burst

02:56:00.620 - 02:56:14.460

in tears. She said, "Sue, I'd rather be flying it properly." I said, "But, Jean, we said we'd do this and try and just get there first." She said, "It's all right.

02:56:14.460 - 02:56:30.420

I did say that." We were doing pretty well. And you know you can fly the Powder Puff Derby only in daylight hours and VFR weather, and from sunup to sundown, the technical terms of it.

02:56:32.320 - 02:56:43.140

So when we hit Pittsburgh—poor dear. She said, "I know Pittsburgh like the back of my hand. Put away the maps." Well, we got lost.

02:56:45.120 - 02:57:05.240

I said, "Jean, I'm going to turn on the radios because we're going to get into Pittsburgh and land." And I got everything settled up, and we knew where we were then, and we landed. And Joan Lemley, then Joan Michaels, had—or else the other way around—had said, "Do

02:57:05.460 - 02:57:28.740

spend the night with us," and invited us over. And she thought to give us a little oxygen tank, just one. We had this little oxygen tank because there was a front between Pittsburgh and Wilmington. We either had the choice to just put down or to fly under it or to try and get over

02:57:28.840 - 02:57:42.300

the top. In those days, I don't think they could tell us what the top was because they didn't know. But so we took off at dawn with somebody else.

02:57:43.240 - 02:58:00.640

They were going to fly under and we were going to fly over the top. And my gosh, we climbed and climbed and climbed. Jean would hand me the oxygen and she would say, "Here Sue, I think you need some." I said, "I'm fine."

02:58:00.640 - 02:58:18.420

But I would take a big swig and then she would take it back. And then we did this back and forth and I said, "Jean, you better get some more oxygen." "I'm fine, Sue, you take some." Here we were, finally got to the top at 16,500 feet.

02:58:19.840 - 02:58:41.380

But it was also—we could let down right away. Also, the front hadn't approached yet, so it was kind of breaking off. And so we started down, and then we both got better. And we flew down, flew across the finish line, as you get to do, and came in and landed—by

02:58:41.380 - 02:59:04.940

gosh we were first. And we were handed the bouquet by the mayor and we were just thrilled. Where did you land? Wilmington, Delaware. Oh, I said New Jersey. I think it was Wilmington, Delaware. Yeah, and believe me when we landed we didn't taxi right in because we wanted to put on our lipstick and get on our proper

02:59:04.940 - 02:59:14.400

shoes and then taxi up. Did you get a trophy also or just flowers? I think just flowers. Okay.

02:59:14.660 - 02:59:29.140

Yeah. Yeah, but we were thrilled. Have you ever entered any other competition? Well, yes, I entered the last Powder Puff Derby with my AT-6 because they were taking

02:59:29.160 - 02:59:50.860

off from Palm Springs and those were my stomping grounds, kind of. Besides that, I wanted to go in the last one. So I flew out there, and on the way out, I wanted to know what a really hot, hot place was like, because I did not know whether what I experienced in Phoenix was like that or

02:59:50.880 - 03:00:03.900

not. It was a long time ago anyway. So I landed at thermal, and I thought, "Oh boy, this is hot," and opened my canopy. In my word, it was like a blast furnace coming in.

03:00:04.450 - 03:00:18.240

So I closed that because the wind was blowing and everything, and it was really, really hot. I think when we took off from there, it was 118 out there on the runway. Really hot.

03:00:18.320 - 03:00:31.140

Of course, that was in the sun, too. So here I was in this race. I was all set to fly it alone. I thought, especially with it alone, I ought to be able to get there first.

03:00:31.720 - 03:00:49.200

That was my goal, to do that once again. Our route was from Palm Springs. We had to land at El Paso and then up around Dallas. We skirted the bottom of the states and then down to St. Petersburg in Florida.

03:00:50.200 - 03:01:06.560

That was generally the route. So I landed at El Paso and all set to go on. And somebody kind of stopped me, one of the girls, as I was going in to check in, after I had checked in.

03:01:07.640 - 03:01:22.000

And she said, "You know, Sue, one of our girls has had a problem, and she was not able to bring her plane. She had to leave it in Palm Springs. And we noticed that you do not have anybody in your cockpit.

03:01:23.960 - 03:01:39.440

Would you mind taking this girl? She's just had her heart set on flying this powder puff derby." And I thought of what I really wanted to do, and I said, "No, of course not. I'd be happy to take her."

03:01:39.440 - 03:01:57.500

And I turned around to meet her. Well, there wasn't anybody there. They were both looking down on the ground, so I looked down on the ground, and here was this lady on the ground with legs about that long, and she looked up and said, "Hi, Sue,

03:01:57.620 - 03:02:08.920

I'm glad to meet you." And I said, "Well, hi, Alberta, I'm glad to meet you." And it was Alberta Williams who flew an aircube, because you don't need your feet to fly an aircube.

03:02:09.680 - 03:02:33.720

And somehow, through all kinds of fights, she had gotten her license. we roomed together, and boy, was she a person. Feisty and good-natured, always smiling. She was the only one in our whole group that at all of our stops at night received flowers

03:02:34.480 - 03:02:41.740

and had a date. The only one. [Shannon laughs] [Shannon:] Tell us about getting her in the airplane.

03:02:41.740 - 03:02:54.900

Yes, I said, "How are we going to get you in and out of the plane?" And actually, I'll skip to when we were going. Well, first of all, I had to get her a parachute because she had to have one to fly in our plane.

03:02:55.480 - 03:03:11.780

And by then, we had started a museum, and we had these rules. So I called my friend Connie Edwards, who had a flight of planes, and I said, "Connie," and told him about my predicament. And I said, "Would you loan me a parachute?"

03:03:11.820 - 03:03:24.160

And he said, "Sue, if you or anybody else would you, of course I'd say no, but yes I will." And we landed and stayed there all night and he outfitted her. No I think we just landed, no we did.

03:03:24.680 - 03:03:40.820

And then he outfitted her with a chute and we took off. And when we landed in the airport, the line guys come running up because they know about the powder puff derby and they'd say, "Is there anything we can do for you?" And of course I'd say, "Well, yes, there is.

03:03:41.520 - 03:03:58.080

I'd like both the tanks filled, please, as full as you can get them. And would you mind helping my co-pilot out of the plane?" And by then she had gotten herself up on the side of the plane and they'd look up at her and say, "Well, how do we do that?"

03:03:58.080 - 03:04:12.220

And she'd say, "Well, you put your hands right here, but don't go no higher and just down. And that's how she'd get in the plane too, they'd lift her up and she'd scramble into the seat.

03:04:12.780 - 03:04:19.020

She was just remarkable. Do you know what has finally happened to her? You know? Is she still flying?

03:04:19.380 - 03:04:33.420

I don't know and I'd love to find out. I guess I should go on the internet and find out. Yeah. Later, she came up to Oshkosh as one of the guest speakers, and I was too.

03:04:33.420 - 03:04:50.380

In fact, we were going to give our talks together. She talked first, and she said, "Well, Sue taught me manners, but I taught her how to have fun." That was kind of cute.

03:04:54.700 - 03:05:12.700

What other airplanes have you owned since you bought that first P-40? Well, a Conquest, with a Citation. The first one they made. And then we bought a Conquest.

03:05:13.900 - 03:05:31.860

The Conquest 1, and we had that, which we each flew solo. That's a twin-engine turboprop plane. And we'd go to flight safety every year after we started flying again, and get everything know, up to snuff.

03:05:32.880 - 03:05:47.560

And they'd have the FAA regulations and instrument flying and everything, every year to be sure we were best. I know at one point you got a tremendous honor. Oh, I did.

03:05:47.900 - 03:06:03.560

Tell us about it. The Warbirds and the EAA. I was the first woman elected to the Warbird Hall of Fame. And they did that and asked me if I would accept that.

03:06:03.660 - 03:06:09.220

Well, would I? Of course. Yeah. Interviewer: Explain what the Warbirds are.

03:06:09.580 - 03:06:26.500

McKenna: The Warbirds are really—they're the planes that went to war or the kinds of planes that were flown in the war. Whether they were observation planes or fighter planes, generally first they were the fighter planes and the bombers.

03:06:27.460 - 03:06:44.060

But then the other people who flew observation planes started to come too, and they were warbirds also. So that might be Forry was a warbird, and Pete's Wildcat, and Corsair, any military plane can be termed a warbird.

03:06:45.600 - 03:07:14.300

And now so many young people have them, and so they fly them too, and they're very proud to—oh, I remember one time flying back in the Baron, the control—the O'Hare—no, the Midhul—the O'Hare Control Tower said, no, it was the Love Control Tower, because we'd fly out to Love Field for our training with flight proficiency.

03:07:16.280 - 03:07:23.120

They said, "We'd love to meet you. Won't you come up and meet us?" And I said, "Well, sure, I'd be happy to." And I did.

03:07:23.220 - 03:07:43.880

I went up there, and there were all these young kids. They must have looked up at me and thought, "Oop, she's a grandmother," or something. And one of the thrilling things too was flying home. Often I'd land up at Charlebois, which is where my son lives, and then I'd fly over

03:07:44.000 - 03:07:57.280

the dock afterwards, and the children would say, "Hi, Grandma!" And these were my grandchildren, you know? And they'd tell me about it later, and all that was neat. How many grandchildren do you have?

03:07:58.360 - 03:08:20.680

I just have fourteen. And it is something to try and keep up with all their birthdays. Kelly: I know you have also had another honor as far as the museum here in Kalamazoo. Beall: Yes.

03:08:21.740 - 03:08:33.380

Kelly: You were inducted into something. Beall: Oh yes, the Michigan. I was inducted into the Michigan Flyers Hall of Fame. Kelly: When was that?

03:08:34.320 - 03:08:49.320

Martinez: That was about eight years ago, I think, maybe ten. And they did it over in Detroit. My family came to be here, which was—oh, I was just thrilled about that. I did not know they were coming.

03:08:51.320 - 03:09:03.180

And that was a thrill to be in that. In fact, that happened before the EAA one happened. Kelly: Have your children ever flown with you? Any of your children?

03:09:03.180 - 03:09:17.460

Reifelt: Oh, yes. I would fly them to school and pick them up and back. One of them, Press, flew in the P-40 with me. I had told Don Berlin that because I was so thrilled.

03:09:18.240 - 03:09:37.180

I must say, you know, when we were coming in and landing and stuff, it was something. And I told Don Berlin, and he said, "Sue, you take that seat out of your plane." He said, "Nobody would be able to get out if something happened." So we did.

03:09:37.840 - 03:09:58.400

And another thing he told me, often the guys flying the planes would get—their engines would kind of pop off. In fact, when I soloed it in Long Beach, this happened to me over at Chino where I'd land, it would pop off and then it would be all steam and all.

03:09:59.200 - 03:10:15.060

And Don Berlin said, "Sue, the guys are flying them with half water and half ethylene glycol." I said, "They're meant to fly all solid, 100 percent ethylene glycol, and that's what you should be using."

03:10:15.060 - 03:10:35.660

So I did switch, and he said, "It doesn't matter how high the temperature goes, because it won't. It will boil much at a higher temperature than water." And another thing, one time a man was inventing cool suits for the Indianapolis 500 people

03:10:35.740 - 03:10:53.420

to race with, and he called over to the museum and said, "Do you think that Sue would be interested in trying this out for us?" And of course I said, "Well, no, I'd be happy to." And we put the tub of ice in back, and it would circulate cold water through this vest

03:10:53.480 - 03:11:10.780

and also through the helmet. And in any hot weather there was, I could sit there with my canopy closed even, perfectly cool. The guys would look over at me and think, "What is the matter with her and how come?"

03:11:10.780 - 03:11:29.660

One time I was invited to fly the P-40 at the Merida Air Show in California. They call it the Gathering of Warbirds. And I flew it out there, and I called my paper boy, Gabby Gabreski—no, no, that's someone else, another warbird.

03:11:32.240 - 03:11:47.380

I called—I call him Gabby now. Well anyway, I called him and I said, "I'm flying the P-40 out to Madera," and I thought I'd give you a call. He was the commander of Lemoore Naval Air Station.

03:11:48.820 - 03:12:03.940

And he said, "Oh, Sue, how wonderful. I'll come with three F-15s and pick you up over Palmdale and escort you to Merida." Well, I was a little late, but I took off. I said, "Wonderful, of course."

03:12:03.940 - 03:12:18.220

I was thrilled and took off. And when I was in contact with LA Center, Los Angeles, I said, "Do you see three F-15s trying to catch up with me?" And he said, "Sure, lady, sure.

03:12:18.600 - 03:12:37.680

Just continue on your present heading." Then in a few minutes he came back and said, "My gosh, you weren't kidding, were you? They're coming up on your nose at 350 miles an hour—knots, rather." And they did join me, and the one was the camera plane, and then the two of them flew

03:12:37.820 - 03:12:49.480

along. They were flying as slowly as they could, and I was going as fast as I could. And we circled the airport and landed, and then later we circled over at Lemoore and landed there.

03:12:50.400 - 03:13:08.360

It was just thrilling. Tell us what has happened to that P-40 that you had. Well, it has retired. And I used to say that, and they got it confused and said, "Sue has retired."

03:13:08.360 - 03:13:20.920

Well, of course, that was not the case at all. It retired because I just was not as sharp with it anymore, and I just figured it is time. And I had one marvelous last flight.

03:13:21.920 - 03:13:44.300

Some people had come in, they wanted to film it, and so I took off and I went over to Lake Lake Michigan and I went up and down Lake Michigan doing rolls and having a wonderful time and realized my tank was getting low on fuel so I quickly landed over here at South Haven and then came back and finished my rolls and flying and Norm was taking pictures.

03:13:46.240 - 03:14:09.300

That was the last flight with it because I hated to give it up, but I was not flying it as well as I had been, and I felt that that was the time. So it retired at that time, and I didn't, though. I know that we are filming this in your office in the Air Zoo Museum.

03:14:11.040 - 03:14:33.260

Explain to us why you have an office. What is your connection with this museum? Well, let me explain that when I retired it, I did not want to give up flying myself. So I climbed up in several of these planes and then decided that really what I ought

03:14:33.340 - 03:14:52.020

to have is a T-34. So I got a T-34 and I could not resist painting it exactly like the P-40. Some of the people thought it was the P-40 over at Oshkosh. They said, "Oh, Sue, we're so glad you're back with the P-40."

03:14:52.020 - 03:15:04.320

And here it was on its tricycle landing gear. But even so, they thought it was. And I was thrilled, too, and the people would still come in to look at it. And that lasted for a little while.

03:15:05.820 - 03:15:19.140

And what else was I going to say? One time, Pete used to land at his alma mater near Williams College, and would land there when he would go there for trustee meetings. They kept begging me to come.

03:15:19.180 - 03:15:38.700

One time I finally did. I had flown into Holderness to a trustee meeting, and had flown it over there, and came by and made a nice roll, and flew on and back by again. On the top of my roll, I looked down, and who was there but the Plymouth State College

03:15:38.760 - 03:15:51.920

having their graduation? I thought, "Oh, no. If anybody tells anybody, they're going to know, and I'll lose my license." But apparently nobody did, because I never heard about it.

03:15:53.660 - 03:16:15.080

Another time down in San Antonio, I had landed and a friend was there. And he had said—it wasn't San Antonio—he had said, "Amarillo, Texas." And he said, "Won't you give us a flyby with a nice roll?" He said, "I've called the tower and they've said all right."

03:16:15.080 - 03:16:29.860

So I said, "Well, okay, if they say it's okay." So I did. I came by down the runway and pulled up and did a nice roll. And somebody in the FAA, talking with a fellow FAA-er, said, "You won't believe what I

03:16:30.000 - 03:16:43.680

just saw. It was a P-40 doing the most beautiful roll I've ever seen." And the other one down in Mr. Couch, down in somewhere else, said, "You did see that?" "Yeah," he said, "I did."

03:16:44.400 - 03:16:52.660

"Well, what did it look like?" And he suddenly realized what he had said and said, "Well, I don't know the N number, but it's a pink P-40." Of course, they knew me.

03:16:53.520 - 03:17:08.460

And I was contacted up here. And John Ellis, who ran CalAero, said, "Well, Sue, I—" He had gotten the letter. He said, "I see you got your tail feathers singed when you were down in Texas." I said, "What do you mean, John?"

03:17:08.460 - 03:17:27.420

And then I knew. And he had gotten a letter from them and said I had to take flying lessons so that I'd know how to fly and what to do. And he wanted a letter from me, this FAA man said, declaring that I had done all this.

03:17:27.460 - 03:17:49.280

And John said, "Don't answer them. Just don't say anything at all." And by the time a year went around, in January, I think it was, or February, early, I got a letter from this Mr. Couch, who said that it has been dropped and you are all right

03:17:49.360 - 03:18:02.820

now again. And I could not help it, but I sent him a great big box in a heart of candy for Valentine's Day. And I said, "Mr. Couch, you have made my Valentine's Day.

03:18:02.980 - 03:18:19.640

Thank you." That is all I said. Oh, all right, why am I here? By the time Pete and I had four planes, he had added the Wildcat and the Corsair, and

03:18:19.640 - 03:18:37.260

I had the T—well, to his—to his Stearman. I had the P-40 and the AT-6. I really did not desire to fly anymore. This was a handful for me, and it really is an acrosswind.

03:18:37.540 - 03:19:02.900

I loved it, all I could do with it. Gunther Balz, who sold him the Wildcat, had said, "Sue,"—and I'm ahead of my story—"when we had the four planes, he had said to Pete, 'Sue, if you and Pete will start a museum, I'll give you my Wildcat.'

03:19:02.900 - 03:19:24.420

We did, and he did, and that was when we started it. We were happy to do that because we wanted to share the planes with more people, and more than just going around to the air shows and doing that. Did you start from ground up as far as the museum?

03:19:25.520 - 03:19:43.960

No. Actually, this building was an FBO, a fixed base operation, that had gone under. We were able to buy it at a very reasonable price because the city did not want it anymore and have to take care of it.

03:19:44.440 - 03:19:59.160

So we bought this. Of course, it is enlarged from then. That was our beginning. First of all, we were in another hangar on the airport, and La Cala it was called.

03:19:59.420 - 03:20:22.880

Then we learned of this and being able to buy it, so we bought it. And then people started giving us their planes, and we got some wonderful planes this way. The Corsair was partly given—or the Corsair was given to us. Actually, Mom had bought it and gave it to the museum because she had learned about it.

03:20:24.580 - 03:20:42.320

But other planes really were given, and then others we would find out about and be able to buy. The B-25 is interesting. A man had called us from the northern part of Michigan, not the peninsula, and had said,

03:20:42.440 - 03:21:07.820

You know, I think you guys might be interested in a plane I now own." He was a collector of cars, and he had traded a car for a B-25 that had been stranded on a little airport down south. Apparently they had to land as a forced emergency landing on this airport, blown the tires of

03:21:07.820 - 03:21:23.880

getting it to stop, and had just left, left the plane. And he had known this man because he had traded cars with him or something. And the FAA had come out and inspected it. It was loaded with marijuana, loaded.

03:21:25.200 - 03:21:39.240

And so here they were with this relic plane, and we said, "Sure, we'd love to have it," and went down and took it apart and brought it back. What did you do with all that marijuana? They didn't let us have that.

03:21:40.760 - 03:22:04.700

I'm afraid they took that. You know, one time my kids had had a party out in the tennis court out at the lake, and one of their friends—it was a wild kind of a party—and I had invited everybody up and down the coast to come so that we wouldn't get shot down, so that nobody would complain,

03:22:04.740 - 03:22:23.940

and they didn't because they had been invited. And one of the friends had come around and was handing press this bag of stuff, and I had caught it and took it. And they were really angry about that and upset.

03:22:24.040 - 03:22:41.700

Well, later on I found it again, because I gave it to press, but I found it. And it was full of these little, tiny little balls that were seeds. And I later learned that they were marijuana seeds. So I went out in the backyard in the woods and I flew them, threw them around hoping

03:22:41.800 - 03:23:03.740

they would grow because I had never seen a marijuana plant grow. Well they did not. Kelly: Explain to us the name of this museum. We call it the Kalamazoo Air Zoo because we like the jingle of it.

03:23:05.960 - 03:23:29.140

And we called it that really because of all that we have a flying tiger, a hell cat, a bear cat, wild cat, now a tiger cat, and all of these animal names. We thought, "What better name than the Kalamazoo Air Zoo?" So it was named that.

03:23:29.760 - 03:23:56.340

What is your responsibility or your title in the museum? First of all, I was a curator and kind of helped us collect things. And then I was the chairman, and Pete was the president. But then I said to Pete, "No, you know, you really ought to be the chairman."

03:23:56.340 - 03:24:14.460

And he said, "Well, all right, then I'll be the—you be the president." And so I'm the president, and my husband now is the chairman. Yeah, I was the chairman still. Are your children involved in any way in the museum?

03:24:14.560 - 03:24:27.200

One son is. He comes all the way back from California when he can to be on the board. Are you and Pete still friends? We are still friends.

03:24:27.840 - 03:24:40.300

You know, we just didn't see the point in having an angry divorce because we had loved each other. And now we decided it was time to go our separate ways. And it just didn't make sense to.

03:24:40.500 - 03:25:03.400

Why make a battle out of it? And so we have stayed friends, and we settled everything the way we wanted. We had the same lawyer, Jane McDermott, and she said, "But now if you two get cantankerous, I can't be your lawyer, because you really each should have a lawyer."

03:25:03.400 - 03:25:15.480

But we did remain friends, and we knew how we wanted to separate things. And told her, and she said, "Well, if that's all right with both of you, that's what we'll do." And we still are friends.

03:25:15.720 - 03:25:22.880

Kelly: Tell us about your children now. We have two minutes left. Kiernan: Okay. Our five children are scattered.

03:25:23.480 - 03:25:48.440

I have one daughter here out at Gullah Lake in our old house. And I have a son up in Charlevoix, Michigan, and I have a daughter out in Colorado. She and her friend have a ranch together, a wonderful ranch, and they still ski at Vail, where we have this cabin.

03:25:48.540 - 03:26:04.960

Now the children own the cabin. And I have a son out on Orcas Island, and he's a music teacher and plays in the band out there, the orchestra. Is that five?

03:26:06.280 - 03:26:26.680

Two daughters, three sons. Oh, and my other son is a lawyer by training and lives in San Francisco. And he's in—well, all of them are very environmentally inclined. And he for many years was the head of the environmental air force called Lighthawk.

03:26:27.360 - 03:26:45.040

And they take people, fly them around to show them the clear-cut areas that you can't see from the ground, and to educate people why maybe a dam shouldn't be built here, but should be here instead, and show it to them from the air. And he's very active with that.

03:26:45.540 - 03:27:03.780

Now he is teaching a battery recycling class to his children's school. He has also written a book called Lighthawk and the Death Dust. Actually it is not, it is not published yet, but I am sure it will be. It is a wonderful story.

03:27:09.260 - 03:27:19.760

And your mother and dad have both gone. Yes, they both died. So now you're by yourself. Tell me how you spend your time.

03:27:19.860 - 03:27:31.220

Do you have hobbies or how do you spend your time? I do. I inherited Mother's house. My sister had inherited the one at the lake, and I inherited Mom's in town.

03:27:33.620 - 03:27:54.560

I have a friend who lives with me, he's the one who gave me this. In Morocco, he's an author and an architect and a photographer. Sort of a, what do you call those three-dimensional people? He's a Renaissance man, he really is, yeah.

03:27:55.040 - 03:28:06.600

Wonderful person. Tell us about your necklace that he gave you. Well he got it in Morocco on one of his photography trips. He got it there.

03:28:07.700 - 03:28:17.480

And it's a cross. What is the name of that kind of cross? It's not Celtic. Yes, it's a Celtic cross.

03:28:18.100 - 03:28:26.900

Thank you. That's just what it is. And that's very special. Because he gave it to me.

03:28:30.140 - 03:28:42.100

One time he gave me a butterfly and he said, "Sue, these are your wings." And I just loved that. I forgot to put it on today, I'm sorry. How long have you known him?

03:28:43.020 - 03:29:04.640

We've known each other all our lives. He was one of the ones who'd come over and ride on my rocking horse too when I did. His parents and my mom were best friends because they were all in the theater here in Kalamazoo. His father was the one who helped build the Civic Auditorium because Grandpa liked him

03:29:04.640 - 03:29:21.840

and had heard about him. Then he kept him on as the first manager. He managed the auditorium for twenty-five years. Then he trained his own son, Norm's brother, how to do it, and he ran it for twenty-four

03:29:21.920 - 03:29:30.800

years too. And Norm was in on all of that too. And so it's been— How do you and Norm spend your time?

03:29:31.900 - 03:29:50.160

He spends it doing photography and writing books. He's written his seventh book. One of his books, called Silent Cities, was about the Mexican and Mayan ruins. And he asked me if I would fly him down there so that he could get some aerial shots of

03:29:50.200 - 03:30:08.660

these ruins. And I said, "Sure, of course I'd love to, not knowing the complications." And but we—I did fly him down there, and we'd fly over the ruins, or directly over because by that time the Baron had a window that we could open all the way that he could

03:30:08.680 - 03:30:22.360

photograph through. And we had put an opening in the floor so that with his Hasselblad he could also photograph directly and fly directly over. And in this book he has some aerials in it.

03:30:23.860 - 03:30:44.900

And he continues to write books. He's just finished one about the Greek islands, the Cyclades, that group of them. And he has books about Portugal and Spain and Italian hill towns and Japan and the architecture in Japan.

03:30:45.200 - 03:31:00.240

He's fluent incidentally in Japanese. And also I love to cook and got that of course from Gladys. And what do you two do for fun? Photograph.

03:31:01.640 - 03:31:13.980

And, of course, I'm toying with trying to write a book. I don't know if I'll ever get it done or not, but I think this is going to help me remember about things. So thank you so much.

03:31:15.720 - 03:31:30.400

Is there anything that we have left out that you want to tell us about? Can you think of anything? Well, let's see, hobbies. I loved to ski, and I guess I've said we'd spent every day, every vacation at Vail.

03:31:31.400 - 03:31:40.000

Ours is still the only cabin there. The kids of course have— But now you have running water. Now we have running water, yes.

03:31:40.600 - 03:31:57.320

When he first put in the running water to architect Fitzhugh Scott, and it was leaking, said, "Well, aren't you glad you have a house where it doesn't matter?" hung up the phone because he had so many other leakers still happening that year. Yeah.

03:31:58.660 - 03:32:20.760

Sue, as you look back over your life, you've done so many things. What is the one thing that you are most proud of? Most proud of? I think flying the way I flew, and also for having the family we have, and that they're

03:32:20.820 - 03:32:38.120

all good kids. And I'm also so very proud about them, the way they're raising their children, because they're spending much more time with them than I did. And they're doing that, and they're being wonderful parents.

03:32:38.900 - 03:32:55.900

And yet they're all talented too in their own ways and doing their own things. And they're wonderful examples for people to see. What is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? I didn't know her well.

03:32:57.320 - 03:33:12.100

I think she did a wonderful thing. I think she was a very—well, I think she was like my mom. She was very forward-thinking. In fact, when my mom was on the board of Western Michigan University, the first time she handed

03:33:12.200 - 03:33:27.980

in her resignation, Governor Romney called Jim Miller, the president, and said, "What shall I do? One of your members has resigned." Jim Miller, the president of the university at that time, said, "Well, don't let her

03:33:28.240 - 03:33:46.920

resign. She's our youngest thinking member." What do you think the legacy of the WASP will be? I hope they'll remember that we were the first flyers and that we really did help win

03:33:47.420 - 03:34:07.960

World War II. And our legacy at this museum is of keeping these planes alive and in the forefront and reminding people of what they did do and helped us win the war, not fight a war, but helped us win it when we were attacked.

03:34:10.660 - 03:34:35.120

And we're hoping to enlarge it, and we hope that we'll be able to do that. We're so very sorry that this city of Portage, which split from Kalamazoo years ago when and every little town thought it had to be its own thing, is afraid of building the roads and spending the money to build the roads that it would need for this legacy of flight,

03:34:35.300 - 03:34:53.280

as we want to call it, to have it here, that they're afraid and they won't do it. They don't realize what it would bring to Michigan and to this community. I hope someone will. What do you feel your legacy will be?

03:34:54.520 - 03:35:06.040

Personally, you mean? I've never thought of a legacy. I hope. You mean what kind of an example do I think I am, kind of?

03:35:06.860 - 03:35:17.500

I hope. How will people remember you? What are you hoping? As well as being a good mother and a good grandmother and a good cook and a good pilot.

03:35:19.260 - 03:35:34.400

And, well, loving to be good at things, I guess. And loving to enjoy things even if I'm not the best. Even if it's a little thing and it doesn't matter that much. If you love it, it's wonderful.

03:35:36.480 - 03:35:52.520

And if it helps somebody. - During your lifetime and mine, there are good times and there are bad times. There are happy times, but there are sad times. What has gotten you through the sad times?

03:35:53.980 - 03:36:17.360

I think, well, the sad times would be when we got a divorce, but we both wanted it, you know? Although I don't think, well, I think being very proud that I had a wonderful family and that the guy I married was wonderful and is wonderful, but we just didn't get along

03:36:17.560 - 03:36:30.400

together in a marriage way, you know. And realizing all that and realizing too that I'm okay. You know that book, I'm Okay, You're Okay? That's a wonderful book.

03:36:32.300 - 03:36:55.420

And I think thinking of things like that has helped me get through. And also realizing how very, very lucky I am and how many blessings I have. Any of us can look around and, boy, we're pretty darn lucky. Do you think it's all luck?

03:36:57.580 - 03:37:21.680

No. It's being at the right place at the right time and making the most of it. No, it isn't all luck, but making the most of your situation, I think. Being a good example, which I hope I am.

03:37:24.060 - 03:37:47.880

And also realizing when you're younger, a lot younger, that really and truly you can do whatever you want to do. You really can, and anybody can, if they really work hard and do it. And don't get caught up in drugs and things, for goodness sakes, or drinking, because that

03:37:47.960 - 03:38:16.920

ruins the lives. That kind of fits in with this last question that I'm going to ask you is, in looking to future generations of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren, what would you like to say to them that might encourage them to become something or to do something that they never

03:38:16.900 - 03:38:43.500

dream possible, what would you like to tell those grandchildren or great-grandchildren or children of the future? I would tell them to believe in yourself and if you have something you really want to do, even if it isn't the normal course, as long as it isn't hurting somebody, then go ahead

03:38:43.500 - 03:39:08.680

and follow it and do it and make the most of your life because you can do anything but don't hurt anybody. Do you have anything that I have left out that you have thought of that you would like to have in this interview?

03:39:10.100 - 03:39:33.060

Not at the moment, I'll probably think of it later. Yes, I do, that flew. And he flew all around the southeastern United States and came back as his high school project. And that was what he did.

03:39:33.560 - 03:39:52.140

He even somehow, when Lyndon Johnson was president, called his office, somehow got permission to land on his ranch. And he did. He tells us how, but I do not know.

03:39:52.960 - 03:40:08.140

Of course, that is how he really called the office, and they gave him permission and said, "Yes, you may." Let me ask you this, we have told you something about this project that we are trying to do. What is your opinion of what we are trying to do?

03:40:08.260 - 03:40:28.480

Oh, I think it is wonderful, just wonderful. I think you should be commended and terribly happy with yourselves for doing it. And you are doing it in such a nice way, really a nice way. And I think it is just terrific to get the histories of each of these people because

03:40:28.480 - 03:40:42.080

all so different from each other. And I think it's a wonderful, wonderful thing to preserve. And to get them in the encyclopedia and the dictionaries and the way you're doing, it must be there.

03:40:43.220 - 03:40:59.960

Because you know the first Air Force ladies really thought they were the first, until somebody picked it up and said, "No, they weren't." Well, we're trying to get it into the education of children. Oh, that's wonderful.

03:41:01.380 - 03:41:07.900

And you have certainly helped today. Oh, thank you very, very much. Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

03:41:07.960 - 03:41:16.520

This has been awesome. Can I ask you one last question? What's your favorite word? Most used or favorite?

03:41:17.440 - 03:41:31.420

Well, give me your favorite. Gosh, I don't know what it would be. I use "wonderful" an awful lot, more than I should. "Grand."

03:41:31.920 - 03:41:37.240

I like those. Okay. That sums you up pretty good. Okay.

03:41:37.340 - 03:41:43.480

Sums me up? Yeah. Yeah, sums you up pretty good. Wonderful and grand, yes.

03:41:43.640 - 03:41:49.680

Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. This has certainly been a chunk out of your day. Oh, Nancy, but I appreciate it.

03:41:49.960 - 03:41:53.840

I've never had a chance to talk about me that way.