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[BEEP] Yeah. We're rolling. Well, I'm Deanie Parrish, and we're in the home of Suzy Bain,

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a WASP class 44W4. We're in Austin, Texas. It's the 9th of June, 2000. And Suzy, just start off by telling us who you are

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and where you were born, and let's go from there. Oh, OK. Back to the very beginning. To the beginning.

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OK. I'm Suzy Winston Bain. I was a Winston, of course, during the WASP. I was born in Markham, Texas, a little town about this big.

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I mean, there probably weren't 15 or 20 people there, maybe a few more. Maybe that was a sixteenth. Anyway, very, very small town.

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And then we moved to Bay City. When? Oh, gosh. When were you born?

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When was I born? Oh, July 21st of '22. Yeah. So I'm getting along.

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For sure. Then we moved to Bay City. I have a brother, just one brother, two years older than I. The love of my life, my hero.

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In fact, if this would be a thing of any import, the first thing I remember-- and when I was two, I had an emergency appendectomy. And they dashed me over the hospital

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and did all this stuff. And of course, I don't remember any of that part of it. But I remember the next morning, my brother, who was four, comes in with a little bouquet of-- what were they?

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Oh, sweet peas in his hands. And they were so wilted, they'd fallen over. And he held them out to me like that. And it was the dearest thing in my life at that point.

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Here, I'm two years old. That's the first thing I remember. And I don't remember anything before that. And he does.

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He's old elephant ears. He can remember way, way back before he was two. But not me. But anyway, we lived there in Bay City for a while.

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Then we moved down to the valley. And while we were down there, my brother had a terrible accident and broke an arm. And they had to amputate.

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And that was maybe the saddest moment of my life at that time. He was seven. I was five. And it was a bad time.

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It was a very bad time for all. But during that-- Why did they have to have you? Well, he fell on it wrong somewhere or other.

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And in those days, that was a long time ago. I was only five. And probably didn't have maybe the doctors that we have now down there.

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I'm sure we didn't. And gangrene set in. And they were afraid he'd lose his life. But they didn't.

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It was just a simple break, we thought. I mean, another little paper boy. We're casting papers around. And they got into a little battle.

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And he just fell and slipped on his shoulder, on his arm. Could I ask you, Suzie, why did you move? Well, I had an uncle down there who was in the automobile business.

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And he had a nice position open for my father. And so we moved down there to get into that business with him, my mother's brother. And that's the reason we moved to the valley

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and loved it down there. And that's where I first-- I'll say more later about my cousin, Libba, because we grew up together.

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That's whatever heart she is now. But we were very best friends for years and still are. She lives right around the corner from me now. But anyway, one time, I'll just kind of tell things

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that pop into my mind. Is that what you want me to do? Well, anyway, in the valley-- well, you've lived down there, Deenie?

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In the valley? No. Well, anyway, they have what they call ressacas down there, which is just like a little stream.

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And that's all I can remember about it, except that my cousin Libba and I were playing on the bridge one day. And of course, we couldn't swim.

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We were only five. And I fell off into the ressaca. And I can still feel myself going down and coming back up again.

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And my cousin Libba's standing right there. And when I finally got up to the top again, she grabbed my hand and pulled me in. And she saved my life.

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She really and truly did. So anyway, that was a crazy experience, but interesting, I thought. And anyway, that afternoon, our parents

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had us down to the swimming hole, teaching us how to swim. So I very much advocate children learning to swim at an early, early age. Tell me about starting school.

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Oh, starting school. Well, then we-- let's see. We came back when this accident happened to my brother. We came back to Bay City.

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And my father found a position there with Bay City Auto Sales Company, a Ford dealer. And I guess he was there for years and years. And that's where I started school.

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You had to be seven years old back then to start in the first grade. And there was no such thing as kindergarten in my little town. So I was seven.

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So that made me a little bit later than most kids that start school at six. But anyway, let's see. And your brother was already in school.

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Yeah, he was two years ahead of me. He was two years ahead of me. And we just had more fun. Of course, the biggest problem in my household with my brother

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was that he felt like that we should always be playing cowboys and Indians instead of dolls. And he tore all the heads off all my paper dolls. And he didn't want me to play dolls.

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So I got to be the bad guy. And we had these little slingshot things where you put a rock in this little thing. And I got executed so many times for being the bad guy.

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But anyways, because I was two years younger and he was bigger than me, then I had to be the bad guy all the time. But I got through it.

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And I loved him dearly. We had wonderful times together. And went on through high school. Let's back up.

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Go through grade school first. Oh, OK. So let's see. What kind of school-- how large was the school?

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Who were your classmates? I don't know exactly how large it was. It was small. They said it was 5,292 to the person when I was living there.

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So that school, did it pull from counties or areas around? No, I think it was just Bay City. I think they had a county school that the other kids went to. And I think they had a language differential school,

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however you put it diplomatically. A lot of the kids couldn't speak English. And so I think they went to the primary grades and transferred Spanish--

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learned to go from Spanish to English. And then they came into the higher grades at school there with the rest of the school. But--

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Did you have elementary and junior high and high all in the same building? No, we had elementary and then high. We went through the seventh grade in elementary.

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And then the eighth, ninth, tenth, and eleventh were high school. We only had eleventh grades back in those days. But it was all in the same school building?

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No, a different building. But in the same area? In the same-- not too far apart, but not on the same complex. In elementary school, do you remember

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any of your classmates? Oh, yeah, we had a gang-- a wonderful gang, seven of us. And there are three of us left.

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But anyway, we had a wonderful, wonderful time together. Probably we were very snooty. We didn't think we were, but I understand that we were later on.

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It's like we were a little older. But we went all through school together. And two of the girls went off later to private schools-- private junior boarding schools because they could afford it.

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Most of us stayed right on public school and loved it. And had wonderful times. We had grandteachers. And I'm going to ramble a little bit,

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but as it comes to mind, I think of when I first came up here to the university that my English teacher was just appalled, not that I was so smart, but he was appalled that I knew as much as I did coming

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from a little, almost country school. And I said, well, this size of school doesn't make any difference. I had wonderful teachers.

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And we, I'm sure, studied the same thing they did in the big cities. And I didn't think it was so appalling that we had pretty good vocabularies and we got along pretty well

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with everybody. But that's just a rambling thought. But one thing that stands out in my mind about the grammar school, it was a two-story.

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It had these little sliding things that you come down, fire escapes, little black things that you could slide down. Wonderful fun.

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But anyway, I got the idea that it would be really a lot of fun to go up on the second story. They had bricks that stood out, about half a brick outside, all the way around.

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I guess it's just a little-- identify-- that's not the word. Anyway, they were there all the way around the building. So the challenge was to sneak out the window

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and get on this little ledge and walk all around the building on your tiptoes. And if you got back in one piece, that was good. And that was just lots of fun.

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My mother would have died, absolutely died had she known it. But that was the challenging thing that we thought was so much fun, me and my gang.

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And one would lead and the other would have to follow. And that was a lot of good stuff. And another thing, I guess I remember, when I was, I guess, 10 years old, my mother--

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my grandmother was wonderful. She lived with us. We called her Mamaw. She would tell stories about the deep, dark forest.

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And we'd sit there with our eyes hanging wide open, you know, so exciting. But she was a daughter of a Baptist minister. She knew the Bible back and forth.

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Well, I didn't know very much about the Bible, but I did know you prayed. And we grew up as Episcopalians. And somehow or other, maybe our ritual

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got in the way of our study of the Bible. I don't know. But I didn't know near as much as I should have known at that age.

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But she was teaching me how to pray. Now, Susan Marie, they call me, if you want anything, you just ask God and he'll give it to you. I said, well, that sounds great.

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So when I was 10, I asked him for a pair of roller skates. We had totally no money. I mean, nobody in those days had any money at all. It didn't matter.

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We still thought we were top of the heap. And so I said, gee, God, you know, I'd like to have some roller skates this year. Well, somebody in my family had discarded

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an old pair of roller skates. And I got them. I said, boy, this is a pretty good thing. So the next year, I asked for a bicycle.

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Same thing, somebody else in the family had outgrown theirs. And I got that. And boy, this is going good. Then the third year, I guess I was 12,

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I decided I need a horse. I absolutely have to have a horse. And so I said, God, you know, I'd like to have a horse this Christmas.

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You've done pretty good the other two times. I need a horse this time. And so I got a horse. And he was the most pitiful looking thing

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you've ever seen in your life. He was-- oh, I can't describe him. I loved him, though. His name was Billy.

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And he didn't let anybody else ride him. He just liked me for some reason. My father would get on, who was born on a ranch, grew up on a ranch.

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Well, Billy would pitch him off every time he got on him. And it was very humiliating to my father, who was such a good cowboy, you know, wouldn't let my brother near him.

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And he'd run away. And I'd have to pick him up and put him in some situation. They'd call me, and I'd have to go and get him. I was the only one that could get anywhere near him.

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But I thought that was strange, that he just liked me and nobody else. But of course, I loved it. And I taught him how to jump and how

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to do the different gates and everything. So we just had a grand time. Then somehow or other down the trail, I realized, maybe that's not exactly the sort of thing

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you pray for. So I let it hang in there. I started praying for a little bit of different things, maybe the health of my family and different things,

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help me to get through this grade and blah, blah and stuff. But I stopped asking for material things at that point. I realized my grandmother, I think, got wind of that I had taken her maybe a little bit out

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of character. She didn't mean to put it quite that way. You don't ask for a bicycle. But anyway, she was such a wonderful person.

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She lived there with us, she and my grandfather. And it was a wonderful experience. We just had more fun. And I think the good thing about it

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was we didn't feel poor, Deanie. We were poor. But as my mother said to me, she was so cute. She was just a prissy little old thing.

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She had about a 23-inch waistline, what I would give for that now. But anyway, all of her life, she just looked like that, dressed up, fit to kill, whatever we did.

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And she'd say, Suze Marie, I want to tell you one thing. The absence of money does not make one poor. And I've thought about that so many times, Deanie. It really doesn't make you poor.

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And we didn't feel poor. And I know one year, a couple of the girls, as I said, that went off to finishing school, they did have money. They had properties and stuff.

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But most of us in our little gang did not. And we had to kind of skip. And my brother made-- he learned how to do the jigsaw. He made a map of the United States for all of us for gifts.

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And he painted them all and put the names of the states on them. And it was so exciting. And the girls just loved them, even better than the things that other parents had gone to Houston

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and bought all this wonderful stuff. But this was something that my brother had made for my friends. And they were just thrilled to death with it.

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Don't let me ramble now. You ask me whatever you think. No, that's-- no. I want you to say what's in your heart.

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Let's say we've been through grammar school. Oh, I was salutatorian in grammar school. I got to make this speech. Gee whiz, that was so wonderful.

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And then went on to high school. And I was in all the clubs, foreign language clubs and all that kind of good stuff. And I know one year, the Latin club married the--

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silly thing, but they married the Spanish club. And we had a great big ceremony in the church. And we had to go through all this stuff to get the priest to say it was OK to use the Episcopal Church.

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They had this wedding ceremony of the Latin and Spanish club. But we finally got by with it. And all kind of interesting things. It was just a wonderful life.

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One time, a friend of mine-- no, this was in grammar school. I have to tell you this, because it's been brought so many times as my children have found out these various things that I did when I was young.

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And when I say, now, honey, you couldn't-- you mustn't do things like that. That's very dangerous. But we lived at one point next to a railroad crossing

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on the way to school. And my friend Martha and I, this train, oh, it kept coming back. And cake coming by with all these cars on it. And Martha and I said, you know, it's going so slow.

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Let's just jump on that train and ride it down a little way. And then we'd run back and catch another car and see how long it takes. Well, that was just lots of fun.

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So we had no idea anybody would see us, of course. And didn't think anything was so wrong with it. Of course, word got back to the principal. And we do not hop freight trains on the way home from school.

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We're still on school premise and so forth and so on. So we got punished pretty severely for that little act. But-- What was your punishment?

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We had to stay in and ride all this stuff for, oh, I guess was about a week or so. I will not ride freight trains anymore. I will obey the school rules.

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And I will do this. And I will do that. And we tried after that because it took up a lot of our play time sitting there in the school room

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doing all that dumb stuff. But I guess it wasn't important. How old were you? We were-- I guess we were about sixth grade,

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something like that, and about 12, 13-something, somewhere in that area. And then gradually-- Tell me about discipline in your school.

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Well-- And about respect, what the teachers expected from children. They expected mine.

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And more or less, you did. But one time-- I'm very aggrieved to say this, but one time we had one teacher that my gang just didn't like too much.

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I mean, she was a nice lady, but she was so totally colorless. And we just thought we were the cock of the walk. And this teacher's coming in here. And she didn't offer us anything.

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She gave us the basics and so forth. And somehow or other-- and I don't know what put this in our minds, but we were just children. I keep saying that we were just children.

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And so she was staying later at school one day. And for some reason, my gang and I picked up rocks and threw them at the window. And I don't know why we did that.

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We were just trying to tell her that we really don't like you very much. And she was a really sweet lady. It was a terrible thing to do.

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And she came to the window and great big tears were rolling down her cheeks. Well, we were devastated. I mean, that hurt us more than if she'd

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brought us in and beat us half to death, I think, just seeing those tears come down. We had hurt her feelings to the bone. And oh, we went out and we gathered up flowers.

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And we took them to her in all kind of notes we wrote to her, asking her to please forgive us. We didn't realize that we hurt her that bad. And I'll never forget it.

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It was a terrible thing to do. But we did it. -I was starting to say, how did that affect the rest of your life?

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-It affected me pretty much. I try not to throw rocks at anybody anymore if I can help it. You know, everybody's different.

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Her personality was different. But most of the teachers, it was so much fun. They were lighthearted. And they had so much to offer.

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And she was just-- in a matter of speaking, now maybe double-double, nothing really that we could put our finger on. But she didn't interest us.

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And why do we have to fool with her? Let's make our position known. And as important as we are, ho, ho, ho, maybe they'll get rid of her and we'll get somebody else in

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who's just lots more fun. But terrible thing to do. I'll never forgotten it. And none of my companions ever forgot it either.

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We learned a better lesson then. Just like with my mother's discipline, Deanie, I don't know-- she never was one to do the quack, quack, quacking.

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But she and I were so close, I could see the disappointment in her eyes if I did something bad. And that really broke me up. I had a really hard time getting on the other side of that

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and trying to figure out what I had done that would have brought such a look into her face. Because she was so jolly. She was a musician.

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She graduated from Baylor Belton in music, waiting on tables, and was quite a musician when she met my father. Taught music and everything. Could have gone on, I'm sure, to be a concert pianist.

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She was that good. But when she met my father, of course, they got married and we came along. But here's one thing that I think,

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when we were 10 years old, speaking of the piano, we'd roll back the carpets. And carpets, yeah, let's talk about how poor we were. But they were rugs.

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You know what I'm saying? We'd get them out in the middle of the floor, and my mother would play the piano. Nobody had any money to buy sheet music, of course.

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So one of the kids in our group, in our gang, who could sing would sing the latest songs. And my mother would sit there and just paddle away, you know, on the piano.

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And she picked up the tune right away. She played by ear as well as by note. And so that's how we learned how to dance. All the little boys rolled over on the bicycles,

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and my father picked up all the little girls, and they came over to our house. And we learned to dance. Just not expertly, but it was fun.

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And that was a big part of our lives. And it always grieved me when my children came along that they kind of didn't do much dancing anymore. They stood and shook a little bit

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and kicked around a little bit, and their partner might be clear across the room. And I had a hard time with that, but that's the way it was in those days when my kids came.

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So who am I to say what's right or wrong? But the overall childhood was very, very pleasant. - Tell me what a Christmas was like at your house.

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- Well, one Christmas, a tragic Christmas, my aunt was there, my father's sister. And at our house, Santa Claus came to put up the Christmas tree.

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We couldn't put it up before because that's just the way it was in our family. And my poor mother, I guess she was Santa Claus, she would always put it up on Christmas Eve.

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And this particular Christmas Eve, poor Aunt Lila, bless her heart, she just backed into the Christmas tree, and the whole thing fell on the ground,

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and every ornament broke. And my mother was devastated. She said, "Oh, Leland, we'll never be able "to replace these ornaments here at Christmas Eve.

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"What will we do?" Anyway, they put together a few little things and straightened the tree, and of course Aunt Lila was devastated.

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But you get through a broken Christmas tree, it's not the end of the world. It wasn't quite as pretty as it usually was. But later on, as I got a little bit older,

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my mother would put a sheet around it so that we wouldn't see it, because Christmas to us was seeing the Christmas tree for the first time, with all the gifts,

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all five of them, you know, under the tree. But it was always a joyful occasion, 'cause we were always steeped in the Episcopal church. We always went to midnight mass,

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and that was a big part of our life. And we just, it was just wonderful. Three of our friends were Episcopalians. - [Interviewer] What part did your grandmother play

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in Christmas at your house? - My grandmother was there telling us stories and smiling and being kind. She, at this point in my life, as we grew older,

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she was beyond doing the cooking, the things that grandmothers are supposed to do. I don't do it for my grandchildren, but I know that's the grandmotherly thing to do.

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But she couldn't. But she was there and was always a tremendous influence on us. She was good personifying.

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She said, she said one thing, we were talking about the devil, or am I being too religious? But anyway, we were talking about the devil one time,

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and I said, "Well, ma'am, I just, "I really don't understand the devil." You know, as all kids do, how could God have put this devil in the world

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that's so good and everything? And she said, "Well, honey, I really believe "you don't have to worry about the devil, "because if your heart is so full of the love of God,

00:22:05.620 - 00:22:15.160

"there's no room for the devil in it." And that made good sense to me. I could accept it, and maybe that's not the regular theological way to look at it,

00:22:15.160 - 00:22:22.800

logical, whatever you say. But it made sense to me. And I could get by, and I could say, well, okay, God really didn't put this horrible guy,

00:22:22.800 - 00:22:30.840

you know, with a pitchfork and everything, getting ready to stab us and burn us in hell and this kind of stuff. And I got through the early days of the doubt,

00:22:30.840 - 00:22:38.480

which I guess all kids go through, grownups too. - Do you remember any of the stories that she read to you? Does one stand out?

00:22:39.480 - 00:22:49.720

- Her stories were mostly made up about the deep, dark forest. And she was such a gentle little lady that you would never believe

00:22:49.720 - 00:22:59.720

that she could think of such stories. But all of us cousins would gather around, and she would start telling them this story, and each one was different every time she told it.

00:22:59.720 - 00:23:06.000

But there's always this little boy and a girl, and they were going out and walking through the deep, dark forest, and he would be an animal over here on that side,

00:23:06.000 - 00:23:18.080

peering out, and we'd stand there with our eyes falling apart, scared to death. And because I think coming from her, and her gentility made it even harder to explain

00:23:18.080 - 00:23:27.800

that she could come out with these things, but she was always a wonderful animal lover. And she'd bring all the animals into it and what they did, and they'd start out being frightening to the children.

00:23:27.800 - 00:23:36.520

And then before it was over, then the children would learn how to handle the different animals, and the fear would kind of go away. She didn't tell us to be, you know,

00:23:36.520 - 00:23:45.520

stick our head in a snake's mouth or anything like that, but she said you don't always have to be in total panic every time you see an animal in the woods, that they're God's creatures too,

00:23:45.520 - 00:23:52.760

and let them have a chance. Don't kill them all just for the fun of killing, that sort of thing. But she was a wonderful teacher.

00:23:52.760 - 00:24:05.280

She was, and in the sweetest way of putting things, the gentleness of her just was wonderful. Now my mother, my mother was a mixture of her mother, Mamaw, and Papaw.

00:24:05.280 - 00:24:17.560

Papaw was kind of a rounder, he, well, anyway, he was different. He was Papaw. And anyway, my mother, my father,

00:24:17.560 - 00:24:29.800

my father was very, stayed in his ways, and very upright and all this kind of good stuff. And my mother would delight in irritating me, it was just so much fun.

00:24:29.800 - 00:24:39.760

I'd sit there as a child and say, why do you do that? Mother, you know you're gonna cause a problem. Well, she was just laughing at the best of it. She'd come and say, oh, Leland, I'm off to Reno today.

00:24:39.760 - 00:24:48.640

And he'd say, Liam, you are not going to Reno today or ever, you know, you're just all right. And then she'd say, well, isn't it a beautiful day? The sun is shining.

00:24:48.640 - 00:24:56.720

And he'd say, no, it looks kind of gloomy to me. And this was the difference, total difference in their personalities. And I guess maybe my brother and I

00:24:56.720 - 00:25:05.040

got a little bit of both of them in some way. But our mother was always up, she was always on top of everything. It was such an exciting world.

00:25:05.040 - 00:25:12.260

And one of the funny things, since you, I think, are a Baptist, aren't you, dear? Well, anyway, of course, she was brought up in the Baptist church.

00:25:12.260 - 00:25:22.680

And I'm sure expected to stay there for the rest of her life. Then she met my father, and my father's people were all Presbyterian. And the funny thing, I guess, about that deal

00:25:22.680 - 00:25:32.680

is that my grandmother held, my great-grandmother held the reins, she had all the money in the family, and she was gonna send the kids,

00:25:32.680 - 00:25:38.320

all the kids through school, all the boys needed to go to school. And that was fine. And my father worked real hard,

00:25:38.320 - 00:25:45.000

graduated from high school in two years, working at night and everything, so he could hurry up and get to college. Then he went to my great-grandmother and said,

00:25:45.000 - 00:25:52.880

well, grandmother, I'm ready to go to school. And she said, well, what seminary are you planning to go to, Leland? He said, I'm not planning to go to the seminary, grandmother.

00:25:52.880 - 00:25:59.960

I want to be a doctor. And she said, well, I'm sorry, Leland. We have decided, the family has decided that you are the best one of the bunch

00:25:59.960 - 00:26:08.200

to be a Presbyterian minister. And so I'll select a seminary for you if you don't know which one. He said, I'm sorry, this is not my vocation.

00:26:08.200 - 00:26:21.320

And so he did not go to school. And I think that kinda is the word, queered him, I hate to use it, anyway, queued out that church for him somewhere,

00:26:21.320 - 00:26:29.880

or rather, I mean, that solidarity, that point that he had to be something just because she decided that he was the one to be it. You know, nowadays we let our kids

00:26:29.880 - 00:26:39.640

kinda make their own selections as to what they wanna do. We don't say, you will be a lawyer, you will be a doctor, you will be a horseback rider and stuff. But kids back then didn't have that option, apparently.

00:26:39.640 - 00:26:52.000

I mean, the family gave them the money to do this, and they were expected to do what the family wanted them to do, but anyway, when my mother and father married, my mother wasn't tuned into the Presbyterian church,

00:26:52.000 - 00:27:00.640

my father was not tuned into the Baptist church, so they said, well, let's just find a church that we can both agree on. And that's when they all became Episcopalians.

00:27:00.640 - 00:27:11.720

And that worked out just fine through the years. They had to, of course, go through a lot of training and stuff, and we were all brought up in the Episcopal faith, which is not all that different,

00:27:11.720 - 00:27:21.240

it's just a difference in the rituals and stuff, but they all believed the same thing, so I've come to understand a lot of religions better as I've grown a little bit older and not be quite so biased

00:27:21.240 - 00:27:33.760

and think mine is the only one. - As you were growing up, what were your earliest vacations like that you remember? - My earliest vacations were nil, Nene.

00:27:33.760 - 00:27:45.480

We didn't have vacations. I occasionally, well, occasionally, almost every summer, they'd find some way for me to get with my cousin, Lova. We'd go to her house one summer, she'd come to our house.

00:27:45.480 - 00:27:53.120

But that was vacation time. There was not money for vacations, there just wasn't. I mean, a lot of the kids went to camp, and I always wanted to go to camp.

00:27:53.120 - 00:28:01.440

Never had the money to go. And can I jump ahead a little bit since I'm on the subject of camps? Anyway, here I am in college.

00:28:01.440 - 00:28:10.880

I'm in between my freshman and sophomore year here at the University of Texas. And this two or three ladies come around, and they said, "Well, we're looking for counselors

00:28:10.880 - 00:28:19.820

"for the Camp for Our Girls camp." And I thought, oh boy, this is my chance. I'm gonna get to go to camp and be a counselor. I can never afford to go and pay for it.

00:28:19.820 - 00:28:32.120

So they said, "Well, what are your specialties?" And I thought, let me see, what are my specialties? And I said, "Well, I'm an expert horsewoman, ho-ho, "and I'm a good swimmer,

00:28:32.120 - 00:28:40.020

"and I've passed my life-saving course and everything." And she said, "Well, it's just wonderful "because we need somebody in both of these fields." And I said, "Well, that's just grand.

00:28:40.020 - 00:28:47.900

"Would love to come." So I was so excited, and I did. I felt a little guilty about it because I was not an expert horsewoman.

00:28:47.900 - 00:28:53.780

I did know how to jump and things like that, but I did not know how to post. And they were trying to teach all these kids. A lot of them were from the city,

00:28:53.780 - 00:29:03.540

and they had written English style and all that stuff. And I remember the first time I got on a horse and didn't sit the saddle. I was trying to learn how to post and everything.

00:29:03.540 - 00:29:08.600

My father looked out the window. "What are you doing? "Sit your saddle, girl. "You do not post.

00:29:08.600 - 00:29:17.900

"Nobody in our family posts." And I said, "Well, Daddy, I've got to learn how to do it "because I've got to teach all these kids at camp." They need to learn to sit the saddle.

00:29:17.900 - 00:29:26.160

Now, that's not acceptable, but anyway, I've learned how to post. And so then I went on to camp, and really, I got along pretty well, surprisingly,

00:29:26.160 - 00:29:37.640

except that the horseback riding teacher left, and she'd been there for years and years. And she put on these fabulous shows and all these kids, and some of them were almost 17 years old.

00:29:37.640 - 00:29:45.900

They start from the bottom on up to 17. I was just 18. But anyway, she did all these horse, I'd never even seen a horse show, let alone put one on.

00:29:45.900 - 00:29:55.920

But I got some books and read up on how to do a horse show. And we had a really good time. Maybe we did some different things because I didn't know what they had been doing or anything.

00:29:55.920 - 00:30:03.480

And so that was fun. That was a real fun year. And it was interesting 'cause the other day, a friend of mine from the church,

00:30:03.480 - 00:30:11.960

she's knee-deep in the camp for our girls, and she wanted me to do some flowers. I'll get to that later if we have time, but anyway, I'm kind of into gardening and things.

00:30:11.960 - 00:30:20.660

And she wanted me to pick some little flowers to go in a cup for each one of the campfire counselors that would be there. It's kind of an appreciation thing.

00:30:20.660 - 00:30:28.980

So I worked that out, and I found some, two old pictures of me and the girls over there at her house got the biggest kick. I said, "It's only been 60 years

00:30:28.980 - 00:30:40.260

"since I was a counselor at this campfire girls' camp." But they got a kick out of that, you know, 'cause it was a little bit different than they are now. But that was kind of a fun experience.

00:30:40.260 - 00:30:54.260

- Let me back up to high school and ask you what you were studying to become. What was your ambition when you were in high school? - Well, my ambition was to get married.

00:30:54.260 - 00:31:05.460

I mean, I thought that's what a woman's ambition was. I knew I needed an education, wanted an education, and surprisingly, I was a pretty good student. I'm not bragging, but I was valedictorian,

00:31:05.460 - 00:31:15.260

and that gave me $25, what do you call it, scholarship over here to the university. That helped a lot. But anyway, that was a good experience for me.

00:31:15.260 - 00:31:31.500

- And as you went through school, who was your role model? - In school, who was my role model? You know, Deenie, I don't believe I can put it down to any one special person I really wanted

00:31:31.500 - 00:31:40.340

to grow up and be like. I guess my mother would be more like, between my mother and my grandmother. But I was so different from what they were.

00:31:40.340 - 00:31:50.540

They were both very gentle people. I didn't think that I was gonna last too long in that category, but I was so sports-oriented and did all the swimming and the tennis

00:31:50.540 - 00:31:59.180

and the volleyball and basketball and all that stuff and intramurals and stuff that I thought, well, gee, you know, in case somebody does ever ask me to marry 'em, I won't know how to cook.

00:31:59.180 - 00:32:07.420

My mother never taught me to cook. She didn't ever like to cook, and so she didn't teach me anything about it. I knew how to clean up and dust and mop, stuff like that,

00:32:07.420 - 00:32:19.700

but I thought I probably need to learn how to cook if I'm ever gonna have a household of my own. So I decided when I graduated and went to university, that's what I would major in, would be home economics,

00:32:19.700 - 00:32:31.460

so I would learn how to be a good housewife. And the other stuff would just fall in. I could always play tennis and swim and horseback riding. - In high school, were you in any clubs

00:32:31.460 - 00:32:40.700

that specifically like the tennis club? And did you compete with other schools? - Yeah, we competed with all the little schools around Bay City, and it was very exciting.

00:32:40.700 - 00:32:51.500

And we had all this wonderful school spirit, which I have seen lacking a little bit in later years as the other generations came along. I've worried about that a little bit

00:32:51.500 - 00:33:03.540

because we were totally sold to the Bay City Black Cats, man. They were in their pitching all the time, and it was such a small school, but it was total dedication to the school.

00:33:03.540 - 00:33:12.060

I mean, we gave it everything we had in every sport that we got into. - Did you have high school prom? - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:33:12.060 - 00:33:21.900

I was, and you know, I've got some stuff in the book in there of all the different little categories and different parties that we went to. And I'm thinking back about my own children.

00:33:21.900 - 00:33:29.220

There just wasn't that much. There were a few little luncheons, prom, and things, but we had all kinds of fabulous dances and things prepared for us.

00:33:29.220 - 00:33:37.460

And one of mine, this was just when Gone with the Wind was coming out, and this friend of my mother's gave me a big Gone with the Wind party,

00:33:37.460 - 00:33:45.660

and she had everybody dressed up with their wigs on, and we had all these hook dresses and everything. It was just adorable. I just thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen,

00:33:45.660 - 00:33:54.100

and I was so thrilled to be a part of it, you know, and that she had done it in my honor. But we danced. I mean, I don't mean bad dancing.

00:33:54.100 - 00:34:04.900

I mean, danced for the sake of dancing. It was a wonderful outlet, and there was no evil at that point in our lives into the dancing world. It was just a fun thing to do.

00:34:04.900 - 00:34:14.980

There was the jitterbuggin' and everything that went with it, but it wasn't the slow-moving dances, and there wasn't the across-the-room dancing. It was ballroom dancing.

00:34:14.980 - 00:34:24.740

- And where did you have these dances? - Well, my big dance was at the hotel, but most of the school dances were in the gym, and we did have a lot of school dances.

00:34:24.740 - 00:34:36.940

- Right. Do you remember any special boy that you-- - Oh yeah, let me tell you about one of the boys. Well, anyway, my father was, I was his little girl,

00:34:36.940 - 00:34:45.500

you know, and Susan Marie's gonna do this, and Susan Marie's gonna do that. Now anyway, he decided that there was one place out on the edge of town called The Gables,

00:34:45.500 - 00:34:53.420

and all the rest of the kids would go out there, and they'd dance, and maybe the boys did have an occasional beer. But of course, the girls never drank anything at all

00:34:53.420 - 00:35:04.300

at that point of our lives, in fact, not even till, I guess I'd been married for some time. But anyway, he would say to me, "Now Susan Marie, I know what goes on

00:35:04.300 - 00:35:14.040

"out at those beer joints. "Now I want you to promise me," pulled me up in his lap, and I'm just shaking like this, "I want you to promise me that you will never, ever

00:35:14.040 - 00:35:24.080

"go in The Gables." And I was just heartbroken, because everybody went. All my crowd went, all the girls and all the boys, and they had a nickelodeon, and it was just a fine place.

00:35:24.080 - 00:35:32.320

Now up in the front, there may be some truck drivers that did have a drink, a beer, or something, but they never invaded our high school area. But anyway, he didn't know that,

00:35:32.320 - 00:35:40.880

and he was trying to take care of my honor and all that good stuff. So anyway, he said, "Now don't go inside The Gables." And I said, "Okay, Daddy, I promise I won't."

00:35:40.880 - 00:35:49.320

And I didn't. But so what I did, of course, he didn't have any idea, but I set out in the car with my date, which was 10 times more dangerous

00:35:49.320 - 00:35:57.680

than going in there and dancing with all these different boys. But I thought I was keeping my promise. I did not go in The Gables.

00:35:57.680 - 00:36:03.760

I sat out there in the car, but I thought, "Now I'm gonna be careful about this "when my kids come along." And I put them in this position

00:36:03.760 - 00:36:15.280

where they can slip out and do all these strange things. - Tell me about graduation. - Oh, it was just really beautiful. It was out on the football field.

00:36:15.280 - 00:36:25.240

- How many students? - I think there were either 56 or 70, something like that stands out in my mind. So it was not such a great thing that I was valedictorian.

00:36:25.240 - 00:36:34.360

There weren't that many to compete against. But anyway, it was a beautiful, beautiful ceremony. And all the bands played. I was in the band.

00:36:34.360 - 00:36:44.720

I played the first clarinet in the band. - What gave you the love of music? - I guess I was just born with it from my mother. But-

00:36:44.720 - 00:36:55.760

- Why did you choose the clarinet? - I think somebody in the family had one. And who could afford to buy one? (laughs)

00:36:55.760 - 00:37:02.560

But we had just started the band when I was in my junior year. This young man came in and started the band program. And it was really wonderful.

00:37:02.560 - 00:37:11.640

We had a lot of fun with this particular program. - Did you have uniform? - Yeah, yeah, we had uniforms. Bay City Black Cat uniforms.

00:37:11.640 - 00:37:23.000

Oh, we were the hottest stuff you've ever seen. But, oh, I'm sorry to tell you about my love of music. It came back to my mind while we were speaking. My mother, of course, who was an accomplished musician,

00:37:23.000 - 00:37:29.720

she tried to teach me, but you don't teach your own kids anything. I had trouble teaching my own kids to swim. But anyway, she tried really hard.

00:37:29.720 - 00:37:38.840

And then she said, "Well, I'm gonna enroll you." I think I was 10, over with Miss, can't even remember her name now. And let's see if she can bring out the music.

00:37:38.840 - 00:37:45.040

You have to have music in your soul. It's all through the family. You have to have some music inside you. So it's really not, where are we gonna get it?

00:37:45.040 - 00:37:56.800

And so I tried and I learned how to play the pieces. And at the recital, we went home and my mother, she didn't mean to hurt my feelings, but she said, "Susan Ray, I have to tell you,

00:37:56.800 - 00:38:04.220

"you played the notes well, "just like you could type a typewriter well. "They go plunk, plunk, plunk, plunk, plunk, "but there is no feeling.

00:38:04.220 - 00:38:15.560

"There is no depth of emotion within you." And now my brother got it. He's a big operatic, excuse me, enthusiast now. But I didn't get that.

00:38:15.560 - 00:38:24.400

I just didn't get it at all. And then she said, "Well, maybe we'll try dancing." She played music for the dancing teacher and made a few little extra dimes there

00:38:24.400 - 00:38:33.720

from my clothes and stuff. My father hated every minute of it because he said women in his household did not work. That just made it look like he could not provide

00:38:33.720 - 00:38:40.120

for his family. He didn't approve of it. She said, "I don't care, Leland. "This child of mine is going to have some decent clothes.

00:38:40.120 - 00:38:48.940

"I'm playing the piano." So she stood up to him that time. And she played for the dancing teacher for several years. And so in exchange that she was kind enough

00:38:48.940 - 00:38:57.780

to teach me a little bit of ballet. And when it came time for the recital, all my friends were dressed up in the gorgeous little ballerina costumes.

00:38:57.780 - 00:39:06.940

And the teacher looked at me and she said, "Well, I believe we'll make a farmer boy out of you." And so they put on all this great big hat and a farmer's thing.

00:39:06.940 - 00:39:16.200

My mother said, "That's it. "I am not training her to be a farmer's boy. "If she doesn't have it in her, "I'm not gonna go into it any further."

00:39:16.200 - 00:39:26.300

So that's the extent of my education in dancing until it came to Austin, really got into it. But I loved it. I just didn't have the flair for it.

00:39:26.300 - 00:39:34.060

- Right. Okay, let's go back to your graduation. - Yeah, okay. - And talk about being valedictorian.

00:39:34.060 - 00:39:48.960

Were you the keynote speaker? Do you remember what you talked about? - Yeah, I talked about the... I'm sure that I ended it, the uncertainties of life.

00:39:48.960 - 00:40:01.720

And here we were getting ready to just engross ourselves in a whole new life and plan and play. For the first time, we were on our own. We had graduated and we were out of our family's households.

00:40:01.720 - 00:40:12.360

And now we were ready to do something absolutely on our own. And could we fill the ticket? Did we have the fortitude or whatever to get out on our own and cut the apron strings

00:40:12.360 - 00:40:23.920

and kick the fledging out of the nest and stuff and go out and do it? And I found I could. And I think my mother, really, she was so great.

00:40:23.920 - 00:40:32.520

She said, "There is nothing in this world "that you cannot do if you put your mind to it." And of course she wasn't, she was forgetting about the playing the piano,

00:40:32.520 - 00:40:43.340

the dancing when she said that. But she said, "Any goal you set in your life," she says, "You can make, you can attain it. "And you can work on it and you can get there,

00:40:43.340 - 00:40:53.160

"but you have to devote." Because as a musician, as you well know, she had to devote so much of her time to her music. And she said, "But you have to put almost 100% of yourself

00:40:53.160 - 00:41:02.660

"into whatever goal you try to attain. "Don't spread yourself too thin. "Find something that you really are totally devoted to "that you really can do and want to do."

00:41:02.660 - 00:41:14.220

She said, "Don't ever get involved in something "that you don't wanna do because it'll just be chaos." So she was a good teacher. - At the end of the first tape.

00:41:14.220 - 00:41:19.660

- Oh, okay. - How are you doing? - She's coming down through this canyon, she doesn't get a drop.

00:41:19.660 - 00:41:36.980

And vice versa, and it's just kinda so hard to think about. Did you ever get me out of high school? - Yeah, you're through high school. And my first question's gonna be,

00:41:36.980 - 00:41:50.780

how did you decide on the university? - I think that's where I had the scholarship to. I'm not positive, it might've been inclusive, but I thought that was the best school at the time,

00:41:50.780 - 00:41:59.460

and that's where I wanted to go. - How did you get to Austin? - Don't worry about it. - Jack's at the University of Austin.

00:41:59.460 - 00:42:08.740

- So he, my father brought me. - Where was your brother at this point? - He was at the university. Oh, and I have to tell you, kind of a funny thing,

00:42:08.740 - 00:42:14.780

maybe it'd be funny. It was very helpful to me, 'cause of course I was a brand new student, I didn't know anybody.

00:42:14.780 - 00:42:25.300

Well, I knew a few girls, but not too many people, and didn't have any big romances going for me at the time. But my brother had been there already for two years, going on his third year,

00:42:25.300 - 00:42:33.460

and so when they had the big Germans and things, a lot of times he and I would go together, and he'd line up the boys over there, and he'd say, "Now, you're gonna dance this dance with her,

00:42:33.460 - 00:42:42.740

"and you're gonna dance this dance with her." I was the belle of the ball. (laughs) And it was so silly, but I thought that was the sweetest thing in the world,

00:42:42.740 - 00:42:48.180

for him to do that for me, and I really felt good, and it made me feel, 'cause you go into a cold school like that,

00:42:48.180 - 00:42:58.940

and you don't know a soul, nobody's gonna ask you to dance or anything, but my brother had a hard time saving money, so we had a great uncle had left us a certain amount

00:42:58.940 - 00:43:08.860

to go to school as far as we could on it, and my father just didn't have it at that point. And my brother had already used up almost all of his, bless his heart.

00:43:08.860 - 00:43:22.500

Sorry, that's messed you up, that little ding-dong in there. But anyway, we had a real good relationship, my brother and I, at the time at the university,

00:43:22.500 - 00:43:31.220

and all through school, he did have this, I wouldn't even call it a handicap, but it wasn't a handicap for him. He got on the other side, he played football,

00:43:31.220 - 00:43:41.700

he played tennis, he was in track, he was in everything there was to be in, and was a wonderful, wonderful dancer. And all my girls, we stayed at,

00:43:41.700 - 00:43:51.180

oh, shoot, what's the name of that dormitory that we stayed in? I'll think about it in a minute. Oh, Kirby Hall, don't know if you've ever heard about it.

00:43:51.180 - 00:44:02.380

It was a Methodist dormitory, and my reason for staying there was that it was less expensive than any of the other big dormitories. And, oh, one silly thing, I must tell you,

00:44:02.380 - 00:44:12.980

but I shouldn't. But anyway, it was called Hillenden Kirby Hall, and we had this, what do you call the lady who's in charge of the hall?

00:44:12.980 - 00:44:20.340

Yeah, of the hall, and oh, she was so strict, and had to be in at a certain time, and had to do this and had to do that. She was really, really strict.

00:44:20.340 - 00:44:31.180

And I was on the hall counselor, whatever you say. I was one of the people that was supposed to keep law and order on my particular floor. And something about her, I don't know,

00:44:31.180 - 00:44:41.420

got to me and the devil came out of me, I guess, got into my heart, as my grandmother said. He slipped in there some way. But anyway, I thought, now, wouldn't it be really funny

00:44:41.420 - 00:44:52.580

if we changed this A to an E up there and made it Hillenden Kirby, H-E-L-L? Well, that was a pretty tacky thing to do. But we did, and the girls had to hang me by my feet,

00:44:52.580 - 00:45:00.540

you know, and I kind of slid the thing down over the thing. We made a great big E out of a cardboard thing and put it in there. Of course, nobody noticed it for a while,

00:45:00.540 - 00:45:10.180

but then later on that morning, she, head mother, walked out there and she saw this. And oh, she was just furious. I mean, who in the world would have done such a thing?

00:45:10.180 - 00:45:17.140

And we hid the letter back behind the coat machine. I'll never forget that. And she came up to me and she said, we've got to find out who did this.

00:45:17.140 - 00:45:24.260

And I said, we certainly do. We're just gonna start looking and looking. And so we looked everywhere, and we just couldn't see if anybody did

00:45:24.260 - 00:45:34.220

not that terrible thing. But that was not a very nice thing to do. And I was sorry, I'm sure we hurt her feelings about that too, but it was pretty much about Helen.

00:45:34.220 - 00:45:40.500

It was gonna be Helen. She was too strict. - Did they ever find out? - Mm-mm.

00:45:40.500 - 00:45:47.020

They never would have thought about innocent me doing a thing like that, because I was on the student council thing, and I would never have done a thing like that,

00:45:47.020 - 00:45:55.580

ever in this world. And I didn't see any reason to confess at that point. - Did any of your gang of seven go to the University of Texas with you?

00:45:55.580 - 00:46:02.060

- Not at that moment. The two that had gone away to finishing school came the latter two years. But I was gone by then.

00:46:02.060 - 00:46:10.180

I just stayed a year and a half. When the war broke out, that's another part of history, I guess, that you'll want to ask me about. - How did you find out about Pearl Harbor?

00:46:10.180 - 00:46:15.860

Where were you? Do you remember? - Oh, yes, I do remember. I was at a sorority meeting.

00:46:15.860 - 00:46:22.980

We were sitting there singing. ♪ Ti-ra-ra-ra-boom-dee-i ♪ ♪ I'm a loyal lady pie ♪ ♪ Ti-ra-ra-ra-boom-dee-i ♪

00:46:22.980 - 00:46:30.700

♪ And I'll be one 'til I die ♪ And all of a sudden, over the radio comes this news. Well, we just sat there dumbfounded.

00:46:30.700 - 00:46:38.060

I mean, because I swear to you, Nanny, that I don't know whether I was just ignorant or my father never told me anything or never read anything,

00:46:38.060 - 00:46:46.080

but at this point, the biggest problem in my life was if I could get that cute boy I just met at chemistry class to ask me to the next German.

00:46:46.080 - 00:46:55.660

That's the biggest problem I had. And I never thought about anything like this. And imagine killing all those people in those planes. I was just dumbfounded.

00:46:55.660 - 00:47:05.060

But I thought, what a place to be when this thing broke out. And here are stupid girls didn't have any idea that there was, we knew a little bit about it,

00:47:05.060 - 00:47:14.500

but we weren't well read on the subject. And we had other things. We had chemistry and boyfriends to think about. So, you know, it was a bad thing.

00:47:14.500 - 00:47:23.720

But anyway, after this happened, my father wrote me a letter because being in the automobile business, we knew that we totally into the sale of automobiles.

00:47:23.720 - 00:47:32.340

And he knew I had a little bit of money left from what my great uncle had left me. And he said, I think you'd be wise, Susan Marie, as they called me in those days,

00:47:32.340 - 00:47:39.980

to go to Houston and take a secretarial course, because it's gonna be very hard. You're gonna have to totally work your way through school. Or maybe we'll wait, maybe,

00:47:39.980 - 00:47:47.960

'cause we didn't anticipate the world would be going anywhere near as long as it did at that point. Maybe the world will be over soon then you can go back to college.

00:47:47.960 - 00:47:57.280

But right now, I think you'd be wise to take your money, go into Houston and take this course, which I did. And it was a year course, and I took it in six months. You could go as fast as you could,

00:47:57.280 - 00:48:07.900

'cause I wanted to get on with my life and get to work. - Where did you stay in Houston? - I stayed with a preacher and his two children who were terrible.

00:48:07.900 - 00:48:14.220

But anyway, that's another story. We'll go into that. (laughs) He was so strict on those girls.

00:48:14.220 - 00:48:25.220

And I came out one time in an evening dress. I was going to a dance, and it was just a private home. And he looked at me and he said, "Well, you're certainly not gonna appear in that."

00:48:25.220 - 00:48:32.020

I said, "Well, yes, what's wrong with this? "I thought it was a beautiful dress." And he said, "Well, that's not the sort of thing "that his girls wore around at all."

00:48:32.020 - 00:48:38.780

Well, that kind of spoiled the dance for me, but I went on. And then the next night, I realized that his girls weren't the little darlings

00:48:38.780 - 00:48:45.220

that he thought they were, but I didn't tell him. Stayed out of that. But anyway, it just made me think, even at that early age,

00:48:45.220 - 00:48:53.020

that he thought he was doing the right thing by being so strict on those girls. And he was so strict to the point that they slipped out and did all kinds of things

00:48:53.020 - 00:48:59.980

that I would have never thought about doing, but I appear in an evening dress. I mean, that's the end of the trail. I'm just asking for trouble, you know? (laughs)

00:48:59.980 - 00:49:08.580

- What denomination was he? - He was one of the fundamentalists, extreme fundamentalists. I can't remember which one it was,

00:49:08.580 - 00:49:17.860

but you know, those things, they do change. And I think we-- - While you were in Houston, where was your brother? Had he finished school by this time?

00:49:17.860 - 00:49:27.540

- He had married and he hadn't finished school yet, so he had to go to night school and finish his education. He'd married and started his family. And of course, he could not be accepted in the service

00:49:27.540 - 00:49:36.180

because of his problem. - At the end of the six months, you had taken all the secretarial courses. Then what did you do?

00:49:36.180 - 00:49:46.580

- Then I went to work for an accounting firm called Heskinson Sales. And we do 12 copies of these ballot sheets and things. He didn't make a single mistake on it.

00:49:46.580 - 00:49:54.940

That was the end of the trail. And if you did, it took two hours to go through and erase it and try to put it back together again. But one day I thought,

00:49:54.940 - 00:50:06.860

"This just isn't really what I'm gonna spend my life doing, "sitting here typing ballot sheets for Heskinson Sales." And about this time was when somebody came through, I think a friend of mine had read something

00:50:06.860 - 00:50:15.340

'cause the whole movement was starting in Houston, the WASP movement was kind of started there in Houston, and that's where I was. So something came out in the paper.

00:50:15.340 - 00:50:25.340

And by then, they had backed it off, I had never flown a plane in my life, they backed it off to 35 flying hours that you could be interviewed.

00:50:25.340 - 00:50:33.840

And so I wrote my father and said, "I have investigated, "there's a little flying club out here in Houston "called Skyport, I believe it was,

00:50:33.840 - 00:50:44.060

"that if I join them for $25, "then I can take flying lessons for $5 a lesson "or $2.50 for solo. "And I think I'd like to try it."

00:50:44.060 - 00:50:49.100

Well, I'm sure my father mulled it over very long and strong, and I'm sure he said to himself, "Well, she won't make it,

00:50:49.100 - 00:50:57.580

"so I'll go ahead and do this, "then she'll think I'm being cooperative." But of course, as it turned out, I was accepted, I don't know how,

00:50:57.580 - 00:51:07.020

but I was accepted as you were. - You remember your first instructor? - Mm-hmm. - And the first airplane, your solo?

00:51:07.020 - 00:51:18.980

- Oh, in my solo, I've got it written down in there. One of the bad things about my situation was 'cause you had to have eight hours to solo back then,

00:51:18.980 - 00:51:28.900

but I think I had about five instructors during that eight-hour time, and you'll think this is real stupid, Deedee, but nobody had bothered to tell me

00:51:28.900 - 00:51:40.340

to look at the sock when you land. So anyway, I take off, and I'm my first solo, and boy, I'm really hot-pollied here. I'm in a solo, and I circle around,

00:51:40.340 - 00:51:47.100

I come back in, and I start to land, and everybody's standing on the ground saying, "Ah!" and going like that, and I said, "Isn't that nice?

00:51:47.100 - 00:51:56.100

"They're lauding me for making my first solo, "and isn't that nice of them to all turn out "and wave their hands at me and everything?" So I tried to land the plane,

00:51:56.100 - 00:52:06.060

and of course, I couldn't land it, and I went around again, and by then, everybody just got in a group and pointed to the sock. And finally, I realized that the wind had changed,

00:52:06.060 - 00:52:14.940

as it does in Texas, instantly sometimes, you know? And I was trying to lend downwind, and that didn't work too red-hot well, so I turned around and got in a different pattern

00:52:14.940 - 00:52:23.240

and got the plane in. - Were there other girls learning to fly while you were at the crack horse? - No, no, they were just guys.

00:52:23.240 - 00:52:36.660

- Did you have any involvement with the Civil Air Patrol? - Mm-mm, no, no. - What did your, was your grandmother still alive? - No, she passed away when I was 17.

00:52:36.660 - 00:52:46.180

My grandfather was still alive, but she was not. But she would've been all for it, anything that I wanted to do, she thought was wonderful. - How did your mother feel about it?

00:52:46.180 - 00:52:57.020

- She, she thought it was good. That was what I wanted to do. - Did they ever come over to do Houston and watch you fly? - No, no, they never did that.

00:52:57.020 - 00:53:05.020

I think, probably really, in all honesty, both of them thought, well, she'll get this out of her hair pretty soon, and we'll move on to something a little bit calmer.

00:53:05.020 - 00:53:18.500

- Do you remember, how did Pearl Harbor affect the whole nation? What were some changes that came about? - I think the horror of it was just almost unbelievable.

00:53:18.500 - 00:53:27.540

I just don't think that we were prepared for anything like this. I think we thought, well, our guys in Congress will take care of us, and they had chosen

00:53:27.540 - 00:53:38.460

not to get involved before, other than just send equipment and stuff over there. And I guess we just thought we'll be taken care of. We always have been.

00:53:38.460 - 00:53:49.820

First World War was supposed to end all world wars, and we thought we'd be okay. - Once you applied for the WASP training, what did you have to do then?

00:53:49.820 - 00:54:01.740

- Well, I had to, I believe it was Dallas I had to go to for the interview. No, I believe I had to have the 35th line there was first, if I'm not mistaken, 'cause I had to present them

00:54:01.740 - 00:54:12.940

to the interrogator. Can't even remember which one it was. But we chatted a while, and all of a sudden she said, "Well, fine, you're in."

00:54:12.940 - 00:54:24.020

And I just couldn't believe it. - What made you decide on the WASP rather than the WACs or the WAVES? - Well, it was, to me, it was just so much more

00:54:24.020 - 00:54:36.420

of a challenge and so much more to be learned that way. It was a whole new field. And I felt I had known a couple of people who did fly, and I had a lot of good, a lot of boyfriends

00:54:36.420 - 00:54:46.300

who were pilots at that time, who were into the service, and two or three of them had died in training. And it just, it was just a spot that seemed to fit me some way.

00:54:46.300 - 00:54:54.820

I thought I could do it. Even though I didn't know very much about physics, I had a hard time with some of that stuff, but the ground school.

00:54:54.820 - 00:55:04.940

- Once you got your orders, and then where did you go? - After I graduation? - Once you got orders to go into training. - Oh, to go into training.

00:55:04.940 - 00:55:14.260

Then I went back home to Bay City. I think I had maybe about a month or something. And I finished up my secretarial thing and gave them my leave, you know,

00:55:14.260 - 00:55:26.100

so that they could get somebody else in. And then I went home for a little while. - Did you know any other girls who had applied? - No, I was strictly and solely on my own.

00:55:26.100 - 00:55:36.540

- And once you got your orders to report, where did you go? - To Sweetwater. Straight into Sweetwater, and they did all the tests

00:55:36.540 - 00:55:49.660

and the blood work and the injections and all that stuff. And then we just started right off. - Tell me about Adventure Field. What were your impressions when you got there?

00:55:49.660 - 00:56:01.860

- Well, I just thought it was my place. I mean, it was a place made for me. And I loved the planes and I loved the... I really, I'm kind of a disciplined person, I guess.

00:56:01.860 - 00:56:10.740

I like the discipline of the military situation. I don't sound so disciplined in some of my silly things I'm telling you, but I like the order.

00:56:10.740 - 00:56:26.740

I like the fact that everybody followed in this one regime. We were dedicated to do a certain thing at a certain time. And we, by golly, better do it and better be there. And it was a challenge, really.

00:56:26.740 - 00:56:34.460

It was a... Not that I was trying to beat anybody else. I don't mean it quite like that, but it was something that I felt I maybe could learn

00:56:34.460 - 00:56:41.820

that I didn't think I'd ever have an opportunity to learn anywhere else. And I had always wanted, I joined a couple of little things at the university,

00:56:41.820 - 00:56:48.340

March, March, March, and thing. I wanted to do something in the war effort and they weren't doing anything. They didn't even know what they were doing.

00:56:48.340 - 00:57:02.900

It was just that everybody wanted to do something and be a part of the effort. And typing 12 copies of tax thing didn't appeal to me at all. But, Avenger Field was a...

00:57:02.900 - 00:57:14.700

It's something you don't ever forget. It's sort of in your blood. Anywhere else I was ever stationed, you do okay. But it wasn't Avenger Field.

00:57:14.700 - 00:57:33.020

Avenger Field was like, I feel about the tower here. It's part of my life and it always will be. - What was the most challenging thing for you during your training?

00:57:33.020 - 00:57:41.580

- Well, I guess it was when I had a slot check ride with a commandant of the field. What was his name? General, Major Early?

00:57:41.580 - 00:57:48.020

- Urban. - Urban. - Oh, girl. - Well, can I give you a little story up to that point?

00:57:48.020 - 00:57:56.820

I did okay during primary. And then of course we went straight on to 86 where we did cross country stuff. And that was a wonderful, wonderful airplane.

00:57:56.820 - 00:58:07.940

And I thought I was doing well with it. But I had this instructor who would shout across the things, four letter words, four letter words. Winston, you're doing blah, blah, blah.

00:58:07.940 - 00:58:17.620

I won't even call the names that he called me and all the things that, well, I'm sure you went through it. And he'd been sort of gentile, he brought up. I hadn't heard all those words.

00:58:17.620 - 00:58:26.420

I since learned what they all meant. But anyway, it just went on and on and on. And finally I thought, I just can't put up with this anymore.

00:58:26.420 - 00:58:31.260

I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. My pile on dates I thought were pretty good. My stalls were good.

00:58:31.260 - 00:58:37.900

And I know how to put the plane down to land it and everything. I thought I was doing okay. But he kept going on and on, just berating me to the point

00:58:37.900 - 00:58:45.380

I just lost my temper. And I turned him on the radio from intercom and he didn't know it. He didn't realize that all these four letter words

00:58:45.380 - 00:58:55.020

went streaking out across the whole situation. And he was not very happy about that. And he said, "You know, I'm gonna get even with you. It's the last thing I do.

00:58:55.020 - 00:59:01.380

This is a terrible thing that you did to me. Shouldn't have done it, blah, blah." And I didn't say anything. I didn't say, "Well, you shouldn't be talking to me

00:59:01.380 - 00:59:11.060

like that either." But anyway, we got back down. And then I guess it was, I don't know how long after that, I was sitting in the, what do you call it?

00:59:11.060 - 00:59:18.460

The ready room, whatever it was. And I think they wanted, we knew that Major Irvin was gonna come down and do a check ride with somebody.

00:59:18.460 - 00:59:30.620

And I think they wanted, what do you call it in San Antonio? I can't think, Betty's a good friend. 'Cause she was a real, real good pilot. Anyway, I can't think of her name

00:59:30.620 - 00:59:38.660

because she was, I'm sure, a better pilot than I to do the check ride with him. Because naturally we wanted to, my instructor and all the instructors wanted to show off their students

00:59:38.660 - 00:59:48.020

since this guy was gonna come down and do this silly check ride. So anyway, and the instructor comes running across the thing, points at me, he said, "She'll be glad to ride

00:59:48.020 - 00:59:56.780

with you, Major Irvin." Well, I was horrified. Certainly did not want to do a check ride with Major Irvin. So anyway, we got in the plane and we drove around

00:59:56.780 - 01:00:04.860

and I thought I was doing, drove, flew around. And I thought I was doing pretty well until all of a sudden he clicks off the thing, and he said, "Well, now will you show me

01:00:04.860 - 01:00:12.580

where you would put this plane down if this were in reality?" And so I saw this field over there and I said, "Oh, sure." To myself, "Sure, I can get into there."

01:00:12.580 - 01:00:21.860

So I go wheeling around and I come down to the field and I overshooted a country mile. And I knew I had, and I thought, "Oh Lord, I'm gone. I'm outta here, I'm going home."

01:00:21.860 - 01:00:30.180

He sent him on the next train. And he said, "Ha ha ha, you know, you didn't make it, did you? You overshot the field." I said, "Well, Major, I'll tell you."

01:00:30.180 - 01:00:38.020

I had to talk my way out of it. I said, "Major, I'll tell you what. If you'll let me make one more swipe at it, I will get you so close to the ground

01:00:38.020 - 01:00:46.900

that we'll mow the lawn." And I said, "Of course, with you and the thing." I was not about to put my flaps down. I was not about to, you know, what do you call it,

01:00:46.900 - 01:00:53.940

wheel it into the side like that, which cuts your speed. But that's what I would have done. He said, "Well, was that your plan all the time?" I said, "Well, yes, sir, of course.

01:00:53.940 - 01:01:01.260

But I certainly wouldn't do it with you in the plane with me, would I?" He said, "Oh, well, okay, I guess you paced." (laughs)

01:01:01.260 - 01:01:08.380

I totally flunked it down to the bottom of my car. I missed the thing. But anyway, got through that. I guess that was the scariest thing I ever did.

01:01:08.380 - 01:01:20.220

But I didn't have to take another checkride in the 86. They counted that as my only checkride. - Tell me about your bay mates and about living in those barracks.

01:01:20.220 - 01:01:34.340

- It was kind of close quarters, as you well know. But we got by, we didn't need any more clothes hardly. We had these wonderful zoot suits that came down to here, especially on a Winston.

01:01:34.340 - 01:01:45.260

And so I was one of the last ones to get a suit. And by the time they got to me, at five feet three almost, I was rolling up here and rolling them up there and bagged them up here and tucked the belt around here

01:01:45.260 - 01:01:55.900

and finally got to where I could fit into one. But my bay mates were wonderful. Betty Shively was my very dearest friend. And we just went everywhere together.

01:01:55.900 - 01:02:04.340

We went to church together and we got pictures of her in there all over the place. And she had a bad experience with my instructor. He tried to wash her out.

01:02:04.340 - 01:02:13.740

And somehow or other, she appealed to the board and she got another checkride and she passed. But I was really crushed, Betty Shively. - No, but you remember the instructor?

01:02:13.740 - 01:02:23.180

- Oh yeah, Lamar O. Lamb, something like that. I've got it in there in the other room. But he was a good instructor, but very tough.

01:02:23.180 - 01:02:29.380

- And he stayed there after that? - Yeah, he stayed there. - The message went out over the radio? - Yeah.

01:02:29.380 - 01:02:37.100

I'm not sure that anybody even heard it, but 'cause I'm sure he realized it very soon, what I had done. But it was such a horrible thing that I had done to him.

01:02:37.100 - 01:02:43.900

And I realized that. But I just plain got tired of hearing those four letter words. - After that, did he treat you differently?

01:02:43.900 - 01:02:52.700

- Not really, after I passed the test. 'Cause I think he felt pretty sure that they'd point me out, that Major would point me out. 'Cause he was a little different anyways, you remember.

01:02:52.700 - 01:03:02.780

Major Irvin was a little different. But my instructor finally reconciled himself. And we got back to be pretty good friends, I think, after that.

01:03:02.780 - 01:03:11.500

But I realized it was a bad thing to do, now that I look back on it. One time I was caught in a dust storm. Somebody said something about a dust storm a while ago.

01:03:11.500 - 01:03:20.100

And I couldn't get the plane down. I mean, it was real, real bad storm. I was just going round and round and round after I finally found the field.

01:03:20.100 - 01:03:30.140

But that was hard. That was really, really hard to land it and all that stuff. But that's the only dust storm I've ever seen in my life. And I don't wanna see any more.

01:03:30.140 - 01:03:40.560

Dust just knee deep in the barracks. - Did any of your friends wash up? - Yeah. - How did that affect you?

01:03:40.560 - 01:03:50.520

- Well, I, of course, was saddened by it. You always want your friends to make it. But it just didn't. It just didn't work out.

01:03:50.520 - 01:04:06.160

And you never knew when the next time it would be you. - Tell me about the one girl in your class who was killed while you were there. - She was in your bay.

01:04:06.160 - 01:04:17.240

She was in the first flight. So I didn't really know her that well. But it was a very sad thing for the whole, well, the whole field when this happened.

01:04:17.240 - 01:04:30.160

And again, you think, well, this is gonna be me next time. 'Cause I could easily lose my way. And I'm sure she was probably just as good a pilot as anybody, but just these one or two little things happen

01:04:30.160 - 01:04:41.560

and that's the end of it. - While you were at Sweetwater, what were your expectations as far as being a pilot? - Wanted very much to fly a fighter.

01:04:41.560 - 01:04:52.680

I was just sure I'd be the hottest P-38 pilot in the whole world. But it didn't work out that way. I didn't get a chance to go to 38th school, P-38 school.

01:04:52.680 - 01:05:08.100

- Talk about your ground school, what the courses were. - They were hard, but I learned a lot. And so I had no idea about how fast a motorcycle went before it went over the hill

01:05:08.100 - 01:05:15.820

and how many feet you had to go before it flopped down, you know, all that kind of stuff. It was totally foreign to my character. And I'd had a lot of chemistry in college,

01:05:15.820 - 01:05:24.360

but I had had no physics. And I had a little bit hard time understanding all the lift and the banks and everything that made the plane go the way it did.

01:05:24.360 - 01:05:32.720

But I've made good grades. And that was good for me. 'Cause evidently, I was just reading my thing back there and at one point said, "She's a little rough

01:05:32.720 - 01:05:43.960

"on the controls." So that was one of the comments. 'Cause I was a little rough on the controls. - Tell me about the auxiliary fields.

01:05:43.960 - 01:05:57.560

- Well, they were pretty cold and we were dressed up like zombies, you know, with all that stuff. And then they'd herd us into these little cattle cart things

01:05:57.560 - 01:06:07.960

that way we'd go into the blistering cold. And I really had never even seen snow. Bay City, Texas, where I was reared, there was no snow down there at all.

01:06:07.960 - 01:06:19.560

But boy, there was snow at Sweetwater and two or three pretty bad storms. But I think it was a good place for us to learn to fly. We didn't wanna do all that stuff.

01:06:19.560 - 01:06:30.200

We couldn't do all that stuff over Vengefield. We need to go out somewhere else and learn. I think we got a lot of good points. One thing toughened us up.

01:06:30.200 - 01:06:41.340

And as I said about being gentilly bred, most of us were. We didn't just come in off the street. You know, most of us had some education and they wouldn't have taken us in,

01:06:41.340 - 01:06:52.400

but we had to learn how to tough it and be strong and make it on our own. And I think that was a good experience for us. - Describe what would happen at graduations.

01:06:55.560 - 01:07:08.800

- Graduations, well, they had marches and they had important people come in and we did all kind of maneuvers that showing them that we knew how to march and stuff.

01:07:08.800 - 01:07:23.620

And we got our wings and it was most glorious time in your life that you got through it, you made it, got your wings, by golly, I can fly. - What did you do between classes

01:07:23.620 - 01:07:31.780

when you had some time off? - Well, one time, three or four of us, we had a few days off. I can't remember what was the occasion.

01:07:31.780 - 01:07:40.540

We went to Carlsbad Academy and we rented this car and went out there. Betty was with us and about five or six of us rented a car and went to Carlsbad.

01:07:40.540 - 01:07:50.160

And that was a wonderful vacation for us. But there didn't seem to me to be a whole lot of time in between classes. There was something going or a lot of studying.

01:07:50.160 - 01:08:00.260

And I went to church two or three times, but I didn't get into it too much. It was so erratic, when we'd fly and when we'd do this, that and the other,

01:08:00.260 - 01:08:11.140

we just couldn't really get, or I didn't find it, that I could get into church too much to devote full time to it. - During that time, did you see your family at all?

01:08:11.140 - 01:08:19.660

During your time? - My mother came, no, I think my mother just came for her graduation. And that was wonderful.

01:08:19.660 - 01:08:33.620

But it's a long way from Bay City to Sweetwater. (laughs) I think one Christmas, well, the Christmas we were there, I kind of thought I could get home.

01:08:33.620 - 01:08:41.100

Some of the girls could. I don't think, I'm almost sure that I didn't get home that Christmas. Some of the girls that were close enough

01:08:41.100 - 01:08:50.880

could get home and back in time. But I wasn't sure about my transportation situation, so I don't think I was able to go. And I was telling somebody the other day

01:08:50.880 - 01:09:03.380

that they did not encourage us to read newspapers. Do you recall that? Because I see something, maybe something will come on TV now and I'll say, well, I didn't realize that's the way it was.

01:09:03.380 - 01:09:11.960

And it was a time I was at Sweetwater and I just wasn't able to keep up, but they didn't want us to. And I was talking to my cousin,

01:09:11.960 - 01:09:23.880

he said, well, they didn't have any restrictions. The guys didn't have any restrictions about newspapers and radios and stuff like that. But I guess they wanted to keep us in our little shell there

01:09:23.880 - 01:09:36.880

and not tell us all this bad stuff. - Talk about your graduation. - Well, yeah. - Your mother came?

01:09:36.880 - 01:09:47.340

- Yeah, my mother came and that was fine. And I can't remember anything except the ecstasy of getting my wings. I can't remember much about the,

01:09:47.340 - 01:10:01.200

we came by and everything and got all this good stuff, but just putting those wings on me was an important thing. And of course we were the first class to get our new uniforms and for a change, they fit me.

01:10:01.200 - 01:10:11.380

I got a size eight or 10, I can't remember what I was then. And gee whiz, the sleeves stopped here and I didn't have to roll them up every time I got in the plane.

01:10:11.380 - 01:10:22.540

And that was wonderful. - Suzy, on your cross countries, did anything outstanding happen on any of those flights? - Oh, when I was at Sweetwater?

01:10:22.540 - 01:10:35.660

No, actually, I think they came on through pretty well. I did almost have an accident. I can't remember what the airport was, but there was dual takeoff and landings.

01:10:35.660 - 01:10:45.700

And one of the students was taking off, I guess when I was landing and I looked outside and there were his eyes this big and we both peeled off and escaped each other.

01:10:45.700 - 01:10:53.300

I guess that's the closest I ever came. And I just wasn't expecting anybody there and I probably wasn't looking. But nobody's supposed to be on that side.

01:10:53.300 - 01:11:04.580

I'm on the path coming into land, you know, and there he comes up right on the side of me. But no, we drove into it, flew into Atlanta and then I didn't have any problem getting back.

01:11:04.580 - 01:11:18.900

- For you, what was the best part of training? - Oh, I just think the actual flying and the six, of course, the AT-6, I guess that was all of our loves.

01:11:18.900 - 01:11:29.540

We didn't care too much for the BT. It kind of rattled and carried on. The one that we did our instrument training in. But we loved the AT-6 and it could just do everything.

01:11:29.540 - 01:11:39.220

You felt the power behind you. It sounds silly now with the powers that they have, but it was a whole lot of power to us girls then. And we felt that.

01:11:41.620 - 01:12:01.020

- What was the worst part about training? - The worst part about training? I didn't actually, I didn't feel any real bad parts of it. It's something, as I kept thinking about

01:12:01.020 - 01:12:12.020

to what my mother told me, you will do this if it's something you want to do and there'll be some bad and some good in it, but you've got to turn it into good.

01:12:12.020 - 01:12:22.100

And so you don't get your eggs cooked the same way that your mother would cook them. You have to walk on the field, march on the field. The hardest thing I had to do just personally

01:12:22.100 - 01:12:29.780

was I couldn't chin. I just couldn't bring all my big 118 pounds up over that thing. I thought it was gonna flunk out because I couldn't chin.

01:12:29.780 - 01:12:40.980

But I finally drug myself up and did it. But I didn't even mind the cow's things 'cause I'd always done all that stuff in high school and keeping yourself fit was part of my life.

01:12:40.980 - 01:12:51.500

I didn't mind that at all. I had a little bit of trouble with, as I said, the physics of it, but when I learned the techniques a little bit better, then I could understand it better.

01:12:51.500 - 01:13:04.940

- Remember, what happened to your horse? - Oh, we had to sell him. Actually, bless his heart, he was operated on so that he wouldn't be a stallion, whatever you call it.

01:13:04.940 - 01:13:15.260

You've forgotten what you call it, but he still had instincts in this direction. I'd be riding him, fluting down through Lowell Bay City, and he'd take off, he'd see a mare way over there

01:13:15.260 - 01:13:23.700

and miles away, and I didn't even know there was one in the area, and off he'd go to attack the mare. But anyway, my father said, "He's just too dangerous

01:13:23.700 - 01:13:37.740

"for you to keep," says he, "He's evidently reverting back, and so we need to sell him." And by then I was older and in different fields. And so they sold him, it was a very sad day for me.

01:13:37.740 - 01:13:44.380

Very sad day because we was so close. - Did you ever have another horse? - No, I never had another of my own. I rode a lot.

01:13:44.380 - 01:13:56.420

Didn't have my own horse. - I just happen to remember that. Okay, on graduation day, had you gotten your orders? - Yeah, well, I'm on graduation day, I believe.

01:13:56.420 - 01:14:03.780

Went the second-- - And what did your orders? - I was to go to Love Field and be part of the-- - To take us from a danger.

01:14:03.780 - 01:14:13.260

Did you go home with your mother? - I believe I went home for a little while. We didn't have very long. When I see we graduated, the latter part of May,

01:14:13.260 - 01:14:29.100

I believe it was, and June 6th was when I had my orders, the same day, D-Day, that I had my orders to report to Dallas, and when I got there, all the places that were taken up by the other women,

01:14:29.100 - 01:14:40.300

they had just little tiny cabin things for us to live in, little barracks things, but there wasn't anything for me because everything was already taken up. It was so crazy back then.

01:14:40.300 - 01:14:52.260

We couldn't stay with a WAC unless you was an officer. We could stay with the nurses because they had a rank, and of course, we had no rank at all, so I had a hard time understanding that,

01:14:52.260 - 01:15:02.380

but I believe I did stay at the nurses' quarters for a little while while they built me a little shack thing on the very end of the thing, and I had to go get me some orange crates

01:15:02.380 - 01:15:10.300

to put my clothes in 'cause there was no furniture or anything in there at all, but I didn't do a whole lot at Love Field. - Who did you report to?

01:15:10.300 - 01:15:22.340

- What, officer? Oh, honey, I don't remember. I don't remember all that stuff. It's just not coming back to me, but I did--

01:15:22.340 - 01:15:35.020

- Were other girls out of your class also assigned to Love? - I don't think anybody from my class was. I didn't, it's not standing out in my mind if there were, but I didn't have a whole lot to do there.

01:15:35.020 - 01:15:43.260

We flew around a little bit, and we checked out a couple of things. - Who was, did you have a commander of some kind over you there?

01:15:43.260 - 01:15:54.340

- I'm sure we did, but that's vague in my mind now as it's turned out, but the one thing, let's see, I guess it was, no, oh, yeah, one thing while I was at Love Field,

01:15:54.340 - 01:16:06.340

we decided they wanted to take some planes from Tinker Field, I think that's in Oak City, to Enid, Oklahoma, because they wanted to get 'em out of this big airport and put 'em in this little one

01:16:06.340 - 01:16:18.500

so they could get rid of 'em, and the planes were so bad that they certainly didn't wanna waste a man pilot to sign 'em off and fly 'em 'cause they were that bad, and so they sent a bunch of us girls down there,

01:16:18.500 - 01:16:27.260

and we picked up this horrible, horrible little, I can't remember what they were, horrible little aircraft, and we take 'em over to this place that just had a, like a strip out in front

01:16:27.260 - 01:16:40.220

of where they were gonna store these things to get rid of 'em and make room for some better planes to come into Tinker Field in Oak City, and one time, I'll never forget it, I was so frightened,

01:16:40.220 - 01:16:48.740

I was flying around and trying to land, and 'cause the planes were so bad that an engineer wouldn't ride 'em off, you had to ride 'em off yourself as first pilot,

01:16:48.740 - 01:17:00.180

you could do that, and say, well, I know I can fly this plane if I can get it back in again, so anyway, I tried to land it and it wouldn't sit down, it just wouldn't stop. I tried about three times around and around the field,

01:17:00.180 - 01:17:09.300

and I'd get down to the end of the plane and I had to go back up again 'cause it wouldn't stop, and finally I said, well, I gotta put this plane on the ground some way, and it was kind of a muddy area

01:17:09.300 - 01:17:19.980

over there, so I flew right in as far back into the strip as I could and got down on, I was coming along just fine, just fine, and while I'm at the end of the trail, I didn't know anything else to do,

01:17:19.980 - 01:17:29.820

so I just nosed it over, that stopped me. They were not happy, I don't know why, 'cause it was a terrible plane anyway, it had no flaps, it had no brakes,

01:17:29.820 - 01:17:41.060

and there's no way in the world I could have ever stopped it but this was bad, I mean, they should have towed that old plane in and not had us girls fly it, but of course, we were totally expendable

01:17:41.060 - 01:17:51.760

and we didn't make it, that's too bad, but we didn't wanna lose the aircraft, somebody might wanna buy it later, but I took five or six planes in through there,

01:17:51.760 - 01:18:00.620

but that's most of what I did, except I did have one cross country, so I took a PT, what was it, PT-19, I guess, is that the fair job?

01:18:00.620 - 01:18:12.320

I took it to Newark, New Jersey to be shipped to China, and I had one of the other girls that I had known, I hadn't known but Newark at Love Field, and she was going on this trip too,

01:18:12.320 - 01:18:24.480

so we kind of flew buddies together. - How many stops did you make, do you remember? - A whole lot, it's in there on my log book, one stop we made we didn't intend to,

01:18:24.480 - 01:18:34.320

when we got out of Dallas and the weather was clear, and we got over, I guess, almost the street part, the weather was not clear, started just flowing in here,

01:18:34.320 - 01:18:43.880

we in these open cockpits, you know, and not really good radio control or anything, no beams to follow or anything except the railroad track or the next checkpoint,

01:18:43.880 - 01:18:52.800

and so she and I waved wings at each other, and we said, "We've got to get down, "we'll never be able to get to 'em." Our next destination was, I believe it was Monroe,

01:18:52.800 - 01:19:04.840

beyond the street part, so we dropped on down and landed, and this time I did land in the field, and it was a field long to these old farmers, and then my companion landed beside of me,

01:19:04.840 - 01:19:12.760

and here we were, and this god awful stuff, as you can remember what we looked like, we came from Mars, and we came out, she was a little like you and I,

01:19:12.760 - 01:19:19.760

and we got out of the airplane, here comes all these farmers up here, I don't know what in the world is going on, and they finally got close enough to us,

01:19:19.760 - 01:19:28.620

one of them said, "My lordy, they're ladies," and of course they never heard of a WASP in the world, and here we are landing, and they're patched, they're cotton patched,

01:19:28.620 - 01:19:35.280

so they called all the farmers around, and they all came over and greeted us, and we had to call in to Monroe and tell 'em what had happened,

01:19:35.280 - 01:19:44.240

that we couldn't leave until, no, I think they sent, I believe they sent a plane or something for us and picked us up, and took us to Monroe and spent the night,

01:19:44.240 - 01:19:52.960

but we ate supper with the farmers, and it was such fun, they were so darling, and it was just, they just couldn't understand how little girls like us could fly those big old airplanes.

01:19:52.960 - 01:20:03.680

- Do you remember your food? - Their house, it was pretty country food, and we had corn on the cob and chicken, all that good stuff, but it was fun,

01:20:03.680 - 01:20:10.760

it was a good experience, but I don't think the powers that be were too happy about us, because some of the girls did go ahead and go in,

01:20:11.800 - 01:20:16.920

but I didn't wanna fly in that weather, and neither did my companion, and we didn't see anything wrong going ahead and putting down,

01:20:16.920 - 01:20:24.240

we knew we could make it in this field, there was no danger to that. - So somebody came over and picked you up? - I think they picked us up,

01:20:24.240 - 01:20:30.880

and we went back and spent the night, and then they took us back, and we picked up our plane the next morning. See, it wasn't that far from Monroe,

01:20:30.880 - 01:20:38.840

and they wanted to-- - Did you have gasoline? Did they bring gas out and gas you up? - I think we probably stopped in Monroe on the way,

01:20:38.840 - 01:20:46.280

you know, to our next, I can't remember what all of our checkpoints were, to be honest with you, but at one point,

01:20:46.280 - 01:20:56.080

we had to lay over in, I think it was Jackson, Mississippi, and there were a bunch of naval pilots in there, we had the best time,

01:20:56.080 - 01:21:03.360

and they were weathered in, we were weathered in, and oh, we just had a grand time, and this was at the time that one of the naval,

01:21:03.360 - 01:21:10.000

two or three of the naval guys had flown under that big bridge somewhere, I can't remember which one it was, when they had all this big to do about it,

01:21:10.000 - 01:21:17.880

and the naval boys got into trouble, but I can't remember whether any of the guys that were there had actually been in on it, but that's all they could talk about,

01:21:17.880 - 01:21:25.160

was why they could not understand why the United States Navy got so mad at 'em, that was such a good feat, that you could fly right under that bridge

01:21:25.160 - 01:21:32.640

and come out, you know, was not a good thing, but anyway, we had a good time, and we went on to finally got in,

01:21:32.640 - 01:21:41.960

and in the meantime, I had broken my table wheel, so I had to stop in Wilmington and repair that, and my companion, of course, went on,

01:21:41.960 - 01:21:49.360

and I'd never been to New York City in my whole entire life, I'm a country girl, so I got my table wheel repaired,

01:21:49.360 - 01:21:58.560

and off I go, and then at Newark, and that's the first and last time I've been to New York. - Then how did you get back to Lockfield? - We came back on a,

01:21:58.560 - 01:22:09.800

I'm almost sure it was a plane, yeah, because I went into the airport, I can't remember which one it was, two or three times I'd come back on the train,

01:22:09.800 - 01:22:17.960

because I remember some of the guys getting up and giving us a seat, and I thought that was very gallant of them. - So you would bring your parachute back with you?

01:22:17.960 - 01:22:26.000

- Mm-hmm, yeah, I think, just kept that with you, as I recall, I just can't remember all the details,

01:22:26.000 - 01:22:31.800

it's been a few years, so. - Oh, okay, but who was the other pilot? - Yeah, I can't remember her name. - Who was the other pilot?

01:22:31.800 - 01:22:44.160

- I've thought about it a thousand times, and I just can't remember her name, but she was a nice gal, and. - Did you ever be in touch with those farmers ever again?

01:22:44.160 - 01:22:51.480

- No, no, we just moved out. I think one of the bad things about me is I get through one phase of my life, I go into another,

01:22:51.480 - 01:23:01.600

and I drop the previous one. I think that's not a good thing, I should have kept up with so many different things. Like when we had our 50th reunion

01:23:01.600 - 01:23:11.640

at Bay City High School a few years back, and I saw all these people, and a lot of them had lived around this area, so they had seen each other before,

01:23:11.640 - 01:23:16.240

and they looked at me and they said, "Well, you certainly have changed." And I started to say, "Well, you certainly have changed too,

01:23:16.240 - 01:23:23.260

"to me I haven't seen you for 50 years, "what do you expect?" (laughing) (indistinct)

01:23:23.260 - 01:23:35.440

- Well, you know, one of the guys there, and I can't even think of his name, but he was a real reprobate. I mean, he was killed while I was there,

01:23:35.440 - 01:23:42.680

do you remember that? If you don't, it must have been a different time then, 'cause I went to his funeral, and oh, you never heard such a--

01:23:42.680 - 01:23:54.040

- Oh, okay, good. Ready? Then I think I had a few days off for some reason, and I came to visit my cousins.

01:23:54.040 - 01:24:03.360

I guess it was here in Austin, yeah, I guess that's where it was. Anyway, I came to visit them, and her husband had been in the Air Force such a long time,

01:24:03.360 - 01:24:12.080

and I'd gotten these, I had a chance to go to B-26 school, and I said, "You know, I don't know if I, "that's not where I wanted to fly at all."

01:24:12.080 - 01:24:19.440

And he said, "Well, take my advice, "if you get offered something like this, "in this airplane, I would take it, "because else you'll be at Love Field

01:24:19.440 - 01:24:26.720

"for the rest of your life, "flying PTs back and forth, "and this would be a really good experience for you, "and then maybe you could go from there."

01:24:26.720 - 01:24:36.320

So that's why I went to the B-26 school. - Do you know how you were chosen? - I have no idea. You and I both were the least unlikely people,

01:24:36.320 - 01:24:43.840

because of our height, I think. And we had all these pillars back behind us, and the other guys would come in, and they went, "I know who's gonna fly on this plane

01:24:43.840 - 01:24:53.400

"before me," you know? It's 'cause we had all the pillars stacked up in there. The first time I went up, the stuff caught on fire, the, what do you call that thing,

01:24:53.400 - 01:24:58.880

the target caught on fire, and we had to bring it back down, so that was exciting. - Wow.

01:24:58.880 - 01:25:11.120

Were there other girls from Love Field who were assigned to the B-26 school with you? - Yeah, mm-hmm. - And where did you go?

01:25:11.120 - 01:25:24.640

- To Laredo, Texas, where I met my husband. - How did you get from Love Field down to Laredo? - Gosh, how did we do that? I just can't remember.

01:25:24.640 - 01:25:32.080

Either we went on the train or somebody flew us down. I can't remember. - Walk me through, when you got to Laredo, what happened? Where did you report,

01:25:32.080 - 01:25:40.840

and what did you think you would be doing? - Well, I really didn't know, to tell you the truth, what we were doing. We had our barracks over here,

01:25:40.840 - 01:25:50.340

way on the side, away from everybody. And I guess there were, I don't know how many girls were there, but there were quite a few, I think.

01:25:50.340 - 01:26:00.200

And-- - Quite a few, 10? - Yeah, yeah, I would say at least 10. And we all flew co-pilot.

01:26:00.200 - 01:26:09.240

Well, one or two of them were there, because, let me see, I think Dottie Swain, I believe she was flying fighters, because they were doing target practice

01:26:09.240 - 01:26:18.000

on the fighters, too, as well. 'Cause we were doing the 26, it's just going around the little square and everything. And we never were checked out,

01:26:18.000 - 01:26:28.760

at least I wasn't, as a first pilot. We just did co-pilot stuff, 'cause we did all the flying. And the B-17s, which, we couldn't keep our cruising speed the same as theirs,

01:26:28.760 - 01:26:37.080

because we flew so much faster than they did, it was awfully hard to keep them stalling out, as you remember, because they were just going on their regular little speed,

01:26:37.080 - 01:26:44.480

which wasn't anywhere near what ours was. And they'd yell across at us with more four-letter words, and keep those planes steady, I expect me to hit the target,

01:26:44.480 - 01:26:51.080

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. - Tell me about the training that you took before you started flying. Did you go to school?

01:26:52.760 - 01:27:04.080

- I believe we had a little, seemingly we had a little training. Not a whole lot. Seemingly, we just kind of started, as I recall,

01:27:04.080 - 01:27:16.280

just kind of started right out flying. - Okay, walk me through a mission, when you would fly a mission. From the time you put on your parachute,

01:27:16.280 - 01:27:21.520

what would happen? - Okay, well, after I finally got on the plane, which was not easy. Got on the plane,

01:27:21.520 - 01:27:29.640

got up there and start off. And they did the takeoffs, and most of the landings finally let us land some. But off we'd go,

01:27:29.640 - 01:27:35.800

and we'd find this pattern, just like a little rectangle, and we knew exactly where we were supposed to go. And we just flew around this thing

01:27:35.800 - 01:27:44.400

for hours and hours and hours and hours. And the gunners shot at our targets, which we towed back behind us. And it was,

01:27:44.400 - 01:27:51.380

I can't remember how long the missions were, but they were very long, and they were very strenuous. It was a big airplane,

01:27:51.380 - 01:28:00.120

and the head pilots were just thrilled enough to have co-pilots in there that they could turn it over to and let us do the work while they kind of sat back.

01:28:00.120 - 01:28:11.480

- And you were flying these gunnery missions for what kind of airplane? - They were the B-17s. Yeah.

01:28:11.480 - 01:28:23.380

- And the purpose of this mission was what? - I guess just to teach the guys how to hit the targets, the moving target. And they had even some refresher courses.

01:28:23.380 - 01:28:31.900

The guys would come back from having been overseas and flown regular missions, and we were always afraid they'd forget that we were not really the main target

01:28:31.900 - 01:28:40.680

that, "Please hit this thing behind us, not us." But I did hear that there were a few holes in some of the planes, but they did get hit occasionally.

01:28:40.680 - 01:28:51.060

But it was no big deal. But one of the things that we didn't have, people have always asked me about discrimination, about, what's the word for it now,

01:28:51.060 - 01:29:00.120

about men getting fresh with women, this kind of stuff. I didn't have a really whole lot about that. But when I first got off, oh, it was on a plane,

01:29:00.120 - 01:29:07.680

because I remember when I first got off the plane, the girls came up to greet me. And one of them said to me, "You know, you're really in luck." And I said, "Well, why?"

01:29:07.680 - 01:29:17.520

And she said, "Well, you have been selected to be the housekeeper of this so-and-so big wig." And I said, "I'm not anybody's housekeeper. I came to fly planes."

01:29:17.520 - 01:29:26.280

And they said, "Well, yeah, you'll fly too, but this is just the way it is." And every time a bunch of new recruits come in here, then they select somebody and you're the one.

01:29:26.280 - 01:29:33.520

I said, "We just forget it. I'm not playing that game at all." And I was very surprised, 'cause it just really hadn't happened to me that way before,

01:29:33.520 - 01:29:42.080

that I was designated to fit somebody's bedroom repertory and stuff. And I was shocked. I was very, very shocked.

01:29:42.080 - 01:29:52.160

But not too many times did that happen. The men were very courteous to me everywhere I'd go to have gas and stuff, refuel and stuff. They were very nice to me.

01:29:52.160 - 01:30:06.200

- Where did you stay at Laredo? - Same little bungalow type thing that we had at Love. It was just a little cubbyhole. (laughs) - Did all the girls who came in for B-26 training,

01:30:06.200 - 01:30:19.720

did they all become, stay as pilots there? Or did some of them go back to their bases? - I think they all stayed until and I can't remember why they decided to move.

01:30:19.720 - 01:30:30.760

It's maybe some other pilots came in, but all of a sudden I found myself transferred to Garden City, Kansas, to BT-13s to test hop those.

01:30:30.760 - 01:30:44.440

And that was an interesting experience. - Did several of you go to Kansas? - No, I think I went by myself, as I recall. - How long were you at Laredo?

01:30:45.440 - 01:30:57.280

- About, I guess almost a month. - And then you were transferred to Garden City? - To Garden City, yeah. - How did you get up there?

01:30:57.280 - 01:31:05.080

Do you remember? - I can't remember going on a train, so I guess they flew me. - So when you got to Garden City,

01:31:05.080 - 01:31:14.720

to whom did you report and where did you live? - I lived in a, just plain old barracks like they had here. They had separate barracks. There were some women there.

01:31:14.720 - 01:31:25.200

- And what was your assignment at Garden City? - Just to, if the plane had something wrong with it, then our first pilot had to test it out before the students.

01:31:25.200 - 01:31:32.280

It was a flying field for our students before they could fly it again. And so I get up. - Can we go back to Laredo?

01:31:32.280 - 01:31:38.240

- Sure. - Did you meet someone special at Laredo? - My husband. - Wanna tell us about that?

01:31:38.240 - 01:31:47.080

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was a buck private. He had not, things had not worked out for him well as he was entering pilot school.

01:31:47.080 - 01:31:56.320

And then something about putting the square holes in the round pegs, he didn't adjust to that too well. It was, it didn't work out for him. Anyway, then they sent him, as they did all the boys,

01:31:56.320 - 01:32:06.200

to either gunneries or bombardiers or navigators. And he didn't want any of those positions. If he couldn't be a pilot, he didn't want to be anything with the Air Forces.

01:32:06.200 - 01:32:17.160

And he got, well, I met him actually. He was dating a bae-mate of mine who was married. And I met him through her. And before I would date him, I checked with this other girl.

01:32:17.160 - 01:32:24.840

I mean, I wouldn't have thought about dating somebody that somebody else was involved with. And she said, "Oh no, go ahead and go out with him." Said, "That's fine.

01:32:24.840 - 01:32:30.160

"I don't have any ties on him. "I'm married anyway." She was just having a good time with him. And I didn't play that game.

01:32:30.160 - 01:32:39.180

And I didn't know how to play it. And I didn't want to play it. Anyway, I met him and we just fell instantly in love. - What was there about him that appealed to you?

01:32:39.180 - 01:32:49.020

- One thing, he was a real go-getter. He was a doer. He knew how to handle things. He got himself transferred

01:32:49.020 - 01:32:58.860

by slipping the papers under somebody else's orders. He got himself transferred out of that into the medical field where he was wonderful. He ran with people.

01:32:58.860 - 01:33:10.160

He got into rehabilitation, went to OCS. And then he got into the rehabilitation field of it. But he was exciting. He was, you know, you had your high school flings

01:33:10.160 - 01:33:18.200

and your college flings and stuff like that. But he's the first one that I really, really put my heart to. And I always will have it there.

01:33:18.200 - 01:33:27.960

- Right. Susie, I'm wondering, since you fell in love and since the Wasps were not restricted from resigning, why didn't you resign?

01:33:27.960 - 01:33:33.880

- Well, I did. - Oh, you did? - But I didn't resign until November. - Okay.

01:33:33.880 - 01:33:41.260

- After I found out they were gonna be deactivated. - Oh, okay. - That's when I didn't see any reason for me sweating out that school I was going to

01:33:41.260 - 01:33:49.620

that they sent me back to Sweetwater for additional training knowing all the time that a month later they were gonna, but I had to go through, you can't imagine the paperwork I had to go through.

01:33:49.620 - 01:33:59.620

And the reason I wanted to get out in November was that's when his furlough was. And that was our only chance that we would have. - Let me ask you, at Laredo, what did you do?

01:33:59.620 - 01:34:10.840

Where did you go on dates? - Well, we dressed up in civilian clothes, one thing, and he always knew somebody on the gate. And so he'd get us out some way,

01:34:10.840 - 01:34:19.840

and we'd go to Wimu, we'd go to Nuevo Laredo and eat a steak or something over there, and come back. And then one time we had a big meeting

01:34:19.840 - 01:34:28.800

and I knew they were talking about me, that Wasps were absolutely forbidden to date enlisted men. I mean, absolutely, there was no holds barred, everybody looks over at me,

01:34:28.800 - 01:34:39.180

and I just try to look innocent. But anyway, it was the real thing. And I said, for 37 years, and as I wrote in one time, after it all blew up,

01:34:39.180 - 01:34:46.820

I said, I've had 37 years of complete happiness. And that's a hell of a lot more, excuse me, heck of a lot more than a lot of people can say. So.

01:34:46.820 - 01:34:55.540

- So by the time you left Laredo, were you committed to each other? - Yeah. Then I went to Kansas and stayed a couple of weeks,

01:34:55.540 - 01:35:04.360

and then they call us back to Sweetwater for this intensive training. And then Carsten came up to visit me one time and we laid our plans.

01:35:04.360 - 01:35:14.160

- At Garden City, you were flying BT-13, kind of engineering test pilot. - Yeah, I was test piloting them after the, something went wrong.

01:35:14.160 - 01:35:22.520

- And then where did your orders come from to go back to Sweetwater? Do you know? - I think they came directly from Sweetwater.

01:35:22.520 - 01:35:34.500

- So tell me what happened when you got back to Sweetwater. - Well, I immediately started negotiating to see how you'd get out without being dishonorably discharged,

01:35:34.500 - 01:35:41.620

which would preclude my ever working for the civil service again. So. - Were there other girls back at Sweetwater?

01:35:41.620 - 01:35:51.460

- Oh yeah, there was a big school there. - What kind of training were you doing at that point? 'Cause there was still Waspon training, right? - Yeah, well, this was advanced instrument training.

01:35:51.460 - 01:35:56.500

- Okay. - Which we're gonna need really bad since they were gonna disband us in a month. And I thought that was foolish

01:35:56.500 - 01:36:02.820

and a terrible waste of money. And I said, so, which I shouldn't have done. I got in a lot of trouble about that because it wasn't up to me to say, I guess.

01:36:02.820 - 01:36:11.780

I was just supposed to follow orders, but blatant waste of money. But, let's see. - At this point, were you engaged?

01:36:11.780 - 01:36:22.780

- Yeah. I guess you could say I dated him a month in a. - Oh my. What kind of trouble did you get into?

01:36:22.780 - 01:36:32.100

- Oh. (laughs) Well, I don't guess I got into really a whole lot of trouble. My baby needs to back me up for one thing

01:36:32.100 - 01:36:44.060

'cause they knew I was in love with this guy. And I guess, see, I only dated him the month of September that I was in Laredo. And then I was shipped out to Garden City.

01:36:44.060 - 01:36:52.660

And then we went from there down. So he did come and see me one time. So I dated him one month and one day before we decided to get married.

01:36:52.660 - 01:37:04.580

And I guess that's what trouble I got into with yours, what trouble I got into. - So how long did you stay at Sweetwater? - It was about, it was the first of November

01:37:04.580 - 01:37:11.860

until about the, it was about two and a half weeks, something like that. I didn't completely finish this thing because they finally got my orders there

01:37:11.860 - 01:37:20.240

where I could be honorably discharged. And that's what I was waiting for. Finally got all that settled and then we went to basically and got married.

01:37:20.240 - 01:37:29.740

- Tell me about your wedding. - Oh, it was a beautiful wedding. Everybody there was over 60, of course. Two of my girlfriends were still there,

01:37:29.740 - 01:37:40.660

but most of them had gone. And married in the Episcopal church, in the gown type thing, the usual bed. And it was very lovely.

01:37:40.660 - 01:37:50.620

He was in his private uniform, which was just fine. I didn't care whether he was a private or whatever about him. And then we drove on to North Carolina

01:37:50.620 - 01:37:57.860

where his family were. See, I had not met them at all. And he hadn't met my family. And he stopped one time, he had my address,

01:37:57.860 - 01:38:06.260

something, Fourth Street. And he stopped, and I better not say this 'cause it'll sound terrible, but anyway, he stopped at the wrong end of Fourth Street.

01:38:06.260 - 01:38:17.980

And he told me, I thought to myself, if she lived here, I ain't gonna go on with this ceremony. Anyway, he was at the wrong end of Fourth Street. So he turned around and went up the other way.

01:38:17.980 - 01:38:30.740

But we had a happy marriage. - What was his job when you first got married? - He was-- - What was he doing? - Well, he was trying to get out of the situation.

01:38:30.740 - 01:38:38.620

When I first got down to Laredo, there was no place for women to stay, for wives. Is that messing you up, honey? I'm sorry. - That's all right.

01:38:38.620 - 01:38:46.900

Just means we've been here a while. - She'll be through calling in a while. Maybe one or two nights. And there weren't that many hotels in little bit of Laredo.

01:38:46.900 - 01:38:55.140

And of course, all the wives wanted to be down there with their husbands. I hadn't been married, but maybe a couple of weeks. And so I went from door to door, knocking on the door,

01:38:55.140 - 01:39:02.500

seeing if somebody would let me stay there. And I heard one time about a chicken coop being open. And I thought, oh, I can fix that chicken coop up, just like I did in my place in Dallas,

01:39:02.500 - 01:39:11.340

which was not much more than a chicken coop. But anyway, that was hardly taken. So I started knocking on doors. And finally, I found this wonderful Mexican guy,

01:39:11.340 - 01:39:21.620

had 10 kids. And most of them were all over the floor and in various rooms and he said, "I just can't turn you down, ma'am." He said, "So and so and so and so and so and so,

01:39:21.620 - 01:39:29.300

one and blah, blah, blah, would be glad to move out and let you have that room. Could you believe such a thing?" And so I stayed there two or three nights.

01:39:29.300 - 01:39:38.980

And by then, his orders had come through to go to OCS. And so then we went on up to Carlisle, Pennsylvania. And talk about snow, we really had it up there. It was terrible.

01:39:38.980 - 01:39:47.060

I got to see him on Sunday, little while on Sunday while he was going through OCS. But he made it. I hired his fatigues night after night after night.

01:39:48.260 - 01:39:59.580

Wouldn't do it again. - What was his ambition at that point? - He wanted to be in the medical field to help rehabilitate guys coming back from overseas.

01:39:59.580 - 01:40:09.140

That's where his talent lay. And it really did. And he was wonderful. He was so jovial and so happy and so insistent

01:40:09.140 - 01:40:18.500

that they do it, that they don't give up. He was just full of religion and all the good stuff. He was an absolutely remarkable person. Without any question.

01:40:18.500 - 01:40:30.780

And he did great at this job. And then it was finally the war was over, thank the Lord. And then by then we went back to Bay City. Yeah, for a little while.

01:40:30.780 - 01:40:43.940

He was not yet mustered out. Well, I guess, no, maybe that was just the war in, I guess that was just the war in England. You know, the German war over there at first.

01:40:43.940 - 01:40:54.340

And we went back home. And then I was pregnant and couldn't join. So that was a terrible thing. And every time I think about getting an airplane,

01:40:54.340 - 01:40:59.620

I get sick. Oh, and I'll tell you one story about Papaw. I haven't said much about him. He was such a character.

01:40:59.620 - 01:41:06.380

But we grew up playing cards, you know, everybody played cards. We didn't know it was a sin, meeting my people, being brought up Baptist.

01:41:06.380 - 01:41:14.780

There was no sin to that. My mother and I thought it was a sin, but my grandmother and grandfather didn't. So anyway, I was so sick and I just couldn't get,

01:41:14.780 - 01:41:22.780

I think a lot of it was being away from him. He hadn't been married that long and here I am pregnant and I can't go with him and what am I gonna do? And so I just up chucked.

01:41:22.780 - 01:41:31.660

And Papaw would come by the room and he'd say, "Get off out of that bed, young, we need a fourth at Ridge." I said, "Papaw, I can't get up. I can't even breathe."

01:41:31.660 - 01:41:40.500

You know, I was living on glucose and Hershey bars that Carson was sending me from the area where he was for the service. And, but Papaw just couldn't.

01:41:40.500 - 01:41:49.460

He said, "Listen, the ma'am had 10 kids and she never acted one time like you're acting now. Now get up out of that bed." I couldn't, I tried two or three times.

01:41:49.460 - 01:41:58.020

Finally he decided, "Okay, I'll just leave her alone." But that was the way he was, you know, he was just an interesting person. - Tell me about your grandfather

01:41:58.020 - 01:42:09.980

that was a Baptist preacher. - Well, I didn't, he was my great grandfather and I really didn't know him except that I had been told that he was instrumental in starting

01:42:12.180 - 01:42:22.580

when the Baptist church school moved from wherever it was before into Bader, that that's Waco, I guess it is, that he was instrumental in getting it settled there.

01:42:22.580 - 01:42:31.580

He was a Kimbrough and his son's name was John Kimbrough. And my mother always said he was, Uncle John was a big grounder, even though he was a Baptist preacher,

01:42:31.580 - 01:42:43.700

but he was a big grounder. So all of my children are not just little saints. But I'm anxious to come and see if there is anything in the archives or anything about this grandfather

01:42:43.700 - 01:42:53.540

because my grandmother has spoken so much. - Right. - And now her husband was from, my grandmother's husband, Papa, was from Kentucky

01:42:53.540 - 01:43:01.780

and she was from Tennessee. And his father died, the story goes that he was shot by his brother, whether that's true or not, I don't know.

01:43:01.780 - 01:43:12.900

But anyway, he was shot and my grandfather was 10 and he had immediately to start taking care of the family. Now how anybody at 10 years old could take care of his mother and all these kids, I don't know, but he did.

01:43:12.900 - 01:43:21.620

And so I'll give him that. - When you were pregnant, was your Papa living with your parents? - Mm-hmm, yeah, the two of them lived with us.

01:43:21.620 - 01:43:32.500

I didn't bring that up, but that's a big part of my life. The two of them were living with us most of the time. And he retired, Papa retired and came to live with us. Then he traveled back and forth

01:43:32.500 - 01:43:39.020

amongst all the other nine kids, but Nana was never able to go. She wasn't well enough to go on all these different excursions.

01:43:39.020 - 01:43:50.980

So she stayed with us most of the time. - And where did you have this first baby? - In Greensboro. And finally after the third month, I told my doctor,

01:43:50.980 - 01:43:57.020

I said, "I'm going. Now you just get me in condition to go, give me another shot of glucose or whatever, I'm going home."

01:43:57.020 - 01:44:03.500

And so we did. And I was just, did so fine until we hit the airport and landed. And the minute I hit that airport,

01:44:03.500 - 01:44:13.980

oh, I was so mad 'cause I worked so hard to make myself look pretty exciting for my husband. And then I was so sick as a dog the minute I hit the airport.

01:44:13.980 - 01:44:23.340

But he didn't mind, I guess. So we went and he had gotten a place which we were very fortunate to get it. But he sold fuel oil at the time.

01:44:23.340 - 01:44:30.540

They had a little fuel oil business going. And he sold oil to this apartment complex. He was very good friends. This is his way.

01:44:30.540 - 01:44:37.980

He was very good friends with the manager. And so the manager just found us an apartment, one bedroom apartment. - Why did you choose North Carolina?

01:44:37.980 - 01:44:47.980

- Well, that's where he was. That's where he lived and that's where his business was. But his mother was an extreme fundamentalist and she never quite understood me.

01:44:47.980 - 01:44:57.460

I mean, I was just pretty, pretty bad, you know. I played cards and I danced and I did all these awful things. But long to the last, she finally accepted me.

01:44:57.460 - 01:45:05.420

But it wasn't easy for her. And I was sorry for her because we could have been good friends, but she just couldn't with all my sinful ways.

01:45:05.420 - 01:45:13.580

But back where she lived, the men would get up their little salaries that they made, very small salaries that they'd make. And then they'd go out in the woods

01:45:13.580 - 01:45:22.340

and shoot poker, drink it all the way. And they used those, what you call them, gambling cards or something, which to my family were bridge cards.

01:45:22.340 - 01:45:32.780

We didn't know they were necessarily gambling cards, but that's just the way it was then. - And this first baby was what? Who is that?

01:45:32.780 - 01:45:40.020

- Girl, Betty, our firstborn. And bless her hair, she was redheaded. All my mother's people are redheads. And she comes along, I thought she,

01:45:40.020 - 01:45:47.620

we both thought she was the most beautiful thing in the world, but her little hair grew from the middle back and then down to here. And she had this bald spot right in the middle.

01:45:47.620 - 01:45:58.860

But it finally had got together and grew on out there. But she was our pride and joy. And then another year, year and a half, Bobby came along. And Betty totally took care of Bobby.

01:45:58.860 - 01:46:09.140

I mean, if we touched him, even when she was two years old, she was very precocious, too precocious. I had trouble with her. But anyway, if we ever gave Bobby just the least of us,

01:46:09.140 - 01:46:15.540

my boss, she'd grab him like this and she'd give us the dirtiest look she'd ever seen, he was hers. Leave this boy alone.

01:46:15.540 - 01:46:24.140

Let me tell you one kind of funny thing about my daughter, Debbie, bless her heart. She was not the scholar. The other two kids were scholars.

01:46:24.140 - 01:46:30.660

I mean, straight A's, no problem at all, all through college and everything. Poor little Debbie, she's had to struggle, but she's worked for it and she's gotten there

01:46:30.660 - 01:46:37.480

and she did graduate from college and that was good. But it wasn't easy for her like it was the others. And maybe because she just didn't pay attention. I don't know.

01:46:37.480 - 01:46:46.380

She came along 10 years later and she was, we wanted four children and didn't have them, didn't have them, and all of a sudden, totally given up and here comes little Deb.

01:46:46.380 - 01:46:57.220

So, but she was the funniest little kid. Her best friend was a little Jewish girl and in North Carolina, there's no stigmas whatsoever, you know, between the religions and all.

01:46:57.220 - 01:47:06.100

There just wasn't any. And her very best friend was little Susan. And they were, she brought Susan home for dinner one night and I was serving ham.

01:47:06.100 - 01:47:14.340

And she said, "Oh, Miss Vane, we don't eat ham "at our house, we're Jewish, you know." And I said, "Well, Susan, of course I know you're Jewish, "but you've eaten bacon at my house a thousand times

01:47:14.340 - 01:47:22.220

"and I didn't know that you didn't eat ham." "Oh, no, we're Jewish, you know." So then a little while later on, Debbie was over at their house

01:47:22.220 - 01:47:32.300

and the mother called both of them in and said, "Now, you kids get in here and you get clean, "put you in the bathtub and I want you to take this soap "and get yourselves clean from your head to your toe."

01:47:32.300 - 01:47:40.820

And Debbie looked up at them and she said, "We don't use soap at our house, Miss Freeman, "we're Episcopalians, you know." Well, I just couldn't wait to tell our priest that,

01:47:40.820 - 01:47:48.900

he thought that was the funniest thing, that Episcopalians didn't use soap. But she thought she was getting back at her, you know, she'd hurt my feelings

01:47:48.900 - 01:47:55.940

and nobody's gonna hurt her mother's feelings. But it's funny, as you get older, the little things that come back to you, isn't it? - Sure.

01:47:55.940 - 01:48:06.240

- You know, just little tiny essences that wouldn't make a hill of beans difference, but as your children were growing through school, what were you participating in?

01:48:06.240 - 01:48:11.360

Oops. - I don't want to. - So you can think about that. - Sorry, do I ask how active I was in their affairs?

01:48:11.360 - 01:48:21.600

Very active. I also worked for my husband at Bain Oil Company and we started with one of the, almost half a truck and we built it up into a real nice fleet.

01:48:21.600 - 01:48:31.860

So we kind of did that together all those years. But I did have a lot of time with my kids. I worked that out, but I was an old PTA and all those good things and all the plays and stuff

01:48:31.860 - 01:48:43.220

that they were involved in. And Cub Scouts and, I can't think of so many different things, but it was a fun time for all of us.

01:48:43.220 - 01:48:48.900

We had a good time. We always went to the beach and spent most of the summer at the beach in our little cottage down there.

01:48:48.900 - 01:49:01.480

- What were your kids interested in in school? - Well, Betty was mostly interested, my first one was mostly interested in, brainy things.

01:49:01.480 - 01:49:08.600

I have to tell you one more silly thing that I'm trying to get off my dumb things. But she and I didn't get along too well, I guess because she was my first child

01:49:08.600 - 01:49:18.040

and I expected her to be perfect. And she was very different from me. She humiliated me by not diving off the diving board and getting her, what do you call it,

01:49:18.040 - 01:49:27.920

the swimming permit. And so we just had a hard time and she'd show these little fits of anger and I'd throw water in her face

01:49:27.920 - 01:49:34.860

and try to get to her. And Bobby was the calm one, my son, he was a calm one, but she wasn't. She was way out into another world.

01:49:34.860 - 01:49:40.480

And I went to my doctor one time and I said, "You know, there's something wrong "with this child." And they said, "I just don't know what to do.

01:49:40.480 - 01:49:49.580

"I never had any problem with any of your teachers now, "or any of your Sunday school teachers or anything, just me." And I said, "I don't know what it is, "but I've got to find out what's wrong with this child

01:49:49.580 - 01:49:58.540

"so that I can help her develop in a positive way." He said, "You want me to tell you the truth?" And I said, "Well, yes, please do." He said, "There's not a thing in the world

01:49:58.540 - 01:50:03.900

"wrong with your child, it's you "that there's something wrong with it. "And if you want to go see a psychologist, "I would pay the way almost."

01:50:03.900 - 01:50:09.360

(laughing) He said, "You're expected this child "to do exactly what you did. "She's not interested in sports.

01:50:09.360 - 01:50:16.380

"She wants to look down a test tube "and try to see what this article is "from this, this, and this. "She's not interested in how you roll up your hair properly.

01:50:16.380 - 01:50:26.240

"She'll put on a plaid skirt and a circular blouse "just to offend you because it's interesting. "And she's just different. "And so if you ever can get this in your mind

01:50:26.240 - 01:50:36.180

"and not expect her to do the things that you do." Well, I didn't know I was doing that. But that explained it all to me and I backed off. And we're the best friends in the world now, Dainey.

01:50:36.180 - 01:50:43.880

We really and truly are. But I had some hard years there. I did because I couldn't understand why wouldn't that child dive off that diving board?

01:50:43.880 - 01:50:55.260

I'm about to. (laughing) - And did those children grow up being able to visit their grandparents and were your grandparents still alive

01:50:55.260 - 01:51:04.220

that your children were growing up? Let me stop for just a second. - My husband's business got pretty good size. He needed more help than we had

01:51:04.220 - 01:51:17.340

and I needed to have more time with my children. And so he called up my father in Bay City and asked him if he'd be at all interested in coming to Greensboro and working in our business there.

01:51:17.340 - 01:51:23.380

So they were very pleased to do that and they would be able to be close to us and the grandchildren and everything. So that worked out just great.

01:51:23.380 - 01:51:33.340

He got a little house and he worked with my husband very well in the business and took over all the bookkeeping which relieved me from a lot of it because I'd been doing all of it before.

01:51:33.340 - 01:51:42.280

And it gave me a whole lot more time. And they were really close to the children. Both of them were. They had their little house

01:51:42.280 - 01:51:52.300

and my mother was still playing the piano 'cause Betty was pretty much an accomplished pianist herself and went as far as she could go in Greensboro. But then she married and went her own way

01:51:52.300 - 01:52:02.540

and married a doctor. He was in his third year at med school and she decided to quit school 'cause all the other kids, young people, young girls,

01:52:02.540 - 01:52:09.500

ladies were supporting their husbands and we were trying to help them so that she could stay in school. She decided she didn't wanna do that so she quit school

01:52:09.500 - 01:52:16.860

and didn't take any more money from us and supported her husband like she thought she was supposed to. So she's very, very independent.

01:52:16.860 - 01:52:29.780

But anyway, yes, my mother and of course, she were very close, both redheads and both fiery and both played the piano beautifully. And even to little Debbie that came on late

01:52:29.780 - 01:52:38.840

was very close to my mother. My father passed away in '68, I believe it was. He'd had a stroke and heart condition and a few little things like that.

01:52:38.840 - 01:52:52.500

But he was still very close to our children. But his was in such a dignified way and she brought fun and life and gaiety into their lives that maybe I was too humble or something.

01:52:52.500 - 01:53:00.540

She produced an extra aspect for them. They played cards together and she taught them all this fun stuff and the boys would come to call on Debbie

01:53:00.540 - 01:53:07.140

and they always wanted to stop and play with my mother. Debbie would say, "Look, you came to visit me, "not my grandmother." (laughing)

01:53:07.140 - 01:53:14.460

But it all worked out. And then she did live with us. We redid our house after the big kids moved out after they had gone to college

01:53:14.460 - 01:53:23.420

and made different lives for themselves. And the time had come for my mother to need more supervision. So we remodeled the house, a big house.

01:53:23.420 - 01:53:30.180

And she had her own quarters. And she played bridge with all the ladies and then she'd go to Cincinnati to all these bridge tournaments.

01:53:30.180 - 01:53:36.420

And she just had a really good time after she lost my father. So there's no reason for him not to start having a really good time.

01:53:36.420 - 01:53:46.540

And she did until she became ill and died at 91, the first year that I moved up here, then she passed away. - Let me ask you this, since she was a different denomination from you

01:53:46.540 - 01:53:53.500

when she moved to North Carolina, did she-- - No, she wasn't. - Oh, she wasn't? - She was Episcopalian from the beginning.

01:53:53.500 - 01:53:58.500

My mother was, yeah. - It was your grandmother who was. - Yeah, that's how we all grew up in the Episcopal Church. - Oh, okay.

01:53:58.500 - 01:54:03.860

- Yeah. - While you were in North Carolina, when the kids were growing up and the grandparents were there,

01:54:03.860 - 01:54:12.780

tell me what a Christmas was like in North Carolina. - Oh, it was just fine. We started this big caroling program, Carson. He was such an outgoing.

01:54:12.780 - 01:54:18.060

We just loved him. Such an outgoing person. And my mother would play the piano at the Christmas carols.

01:54:18.060 - 01:54:29.060

And when we first got started on this Christmas deal, and there were about seven or eight of the little kids, just my two big kids age, way before David was born. And they'd sit around the piano and sing Christmas carols.

01:54:29.060 - 01:54:37.500

And we always had, of course, a great big tree over there. And then they'd go out and sing around the neighborhood, carol around the neighborhood. Then they'd come back and we'd have refreshments.

01:54:37.500 - 01:54:49.500

And pretty soon that thing escalated until the last one we had was way after David was born. We just kept going years and years and years. And finally got to where there were at least 100, 150

01:54:49.500 - 01:54:56.960

that would come over. And some of them were staying in a great big basement with a pool table down there. We filled the pool table full of food and everything.

01:54:56.960 - 01:55:06.560

And some stayed and some went out caroling. But it's still the biggest part of my daddy's life. And bless her heart, she has tried so hard to get this thing going in her neighborhood.

01:55:06.560 - 01:55:13.540

She can't get anybody interested in caroling. They don't want to do that. She's tried for three years. And she said, I don't know what I'm going to do,

01:55:13.540 - 01:55:20.860

but I cannot get them moving. And I said, well, maybe this just isn't the thing. They didn't grow up with this. And it wasn't part of their background.

01:55:20.860 - 01:55:29.820

But she was heard about it. She wants to keep the same tradition that she had as a child at home. And she didn't know there was any bad trouble between us

01:55:29.820 - 01:55:40.860

until I left. She was a senior at Guilford when I knew I had to leave. And the main reason was that my son was going to be chairman of the GGO, the Greater Greensboro

01:55:40.860 - 01:55:51.980

Golf Tournament. He was a big JC wheel, as his father had been before him. And I knew it was going to be awkward for me to be there. And so I just picked up stakes and moved to Texas,

01:55:51.980 - 01:55:58.220

where my kids were. And it's funny when something like this happens to you. Pray God it never does. But I would see the tower.

01:55:58.220 - 01:56:06.460

And I wasn't here but a year and a half. But I would see the tower, and it gave me some stability. There was something about that. This is where I went to school.

01:56:06.460 - 01:56:15.820

This could be my place. And I could pick up the pieces, and I could start again. And I didn't have to go down the hills into the doldrums. But I had a bad time.

01:56:15.820 - 01:56:25.660

I mean, at first, I could hardly talk until I got myself going again. I just had to say, you will do this. You will not let this totally destroy your life.

01:56:25.660 - 01:56:35.460

And of course, Debbie had just graduated from school, and that was a bad time. So she decided to come with me. And then she fell in love with Texas and never wants to leave.

01:56:35.460 - 01:56:41.260

So-- I almost got out of it. I put another tape in. Oh, OK.

01:56:41.260 - 01:56:46.260

Wow. These are shorter tapes. Oh, OK. They don't-- last question.

01:56:46.260 - 01:56:51.280

Well, now, don't just keep on, you know, as far as I'm concerned. Stop any time you want to. OK.

01:56:51.280 - 01:56:53.660

OK. All right. Go ahead. Yeah.

01:56:53.660 - 01:57:05.060

Tell me, we all had bad times. How did you get through the bad times? Well, we had just kind of-- I guess it hit the middle age crisis.

01:57:05.060 - 01:57:12.020

I can't think of anything else to call it. A little late, I think we hit it. Or he hit it, or whatever. But my mother had been there with us,

01:57:12.020 - 01:57:19.660

and he totally adored my mother and was the sweetest thing in the world to her. I will ever and forever be grateful about how he was with my mother.

01:57:19.660 - 01:57:29.820

He'd come home from the office, and they'd play cards when she was so far beyond being able to play with her own friends. And anyway, he would do such kind things for her.

01:57:29.820 - 01:57:37.060

But when she became ill, it's just like he couldn't accept it. He just couldn't. And he'd walk through the room, and she'd say to me,

01:57:37.060 - 01:57:45.780

she says to me, why doesn't Carson talk to me anymore? I said, honey, he doesn't realize he's not talking to you. But he just couldn't face it.

01:57:45.780 - 01:57:51.820

Some people can face disaster, and some can't. He can't. Or he couldn't at that point. But can now.

01:57:51.820 - 01:58:03.500

But anyway, the time had come that I had to make a move. And I knew I was going to have to put her in a nursing home, which you do sometimes. I guess that's why I'm so heft on doing my thing

01:58:03.500 - 01:58:12.340

while I'm able to make the decision and not leave this to my children to fight over and decide what they're going to do with me and whose bedroom they're going to put me in.

01:58:12.340 - 01:58:21.540

So I brought her to Texas. And I found a little nursing home. Nothing like what they are now. The nursing homes are good.

01:58:21.540 - 01:58:29.820

Some of them are really fine now. And anyway, I found a place in Eagle Lake. And I had two cousins down there. I was still in North Carolina.

01:58:29.820 - 01:58:36.140

And so this didn't work out too well. But it was the best I could do. I had to do something. I had to do something.

01:58:36.140 - 01:58:45.340

And so then I'm going back home. I get a call, come quick, Miss Bain. Your mother's throwing her roommate stuff out the door again.

01:58:45.340 - 01:58:56.980

We have to have a roommate for her. So I come flying back to Texas and work that thing out. And I'd go back home again. And I guess everybody in North Carolina

01:58:56.980 - 01:59:05.260

knew that-- in Greensboro-- knew that things weren't going on so well. My husband was a former mayor. He would have been president of the whole county commissioners

01:59:05.260 - 01:59:14.180

of the United States, except that the Republicans got in on a fluke one time. Because I'm not saying anything against the Republicans. I'm just saying that at that time,

01:59:14.180 - 01:59:30.300

North Carolina was all Democratic. And you were conservative or liberal within your own party. But the governor decided to put a sales tax on things. And that just queued up the whole situation.

01:59:30.300 - 01:59:41.020

Everybody turned and voted for the other party. And so my husband was out on his ear. And it was very devastating to him, because he had all these plans, all the stuff he was going

01:59:41.020 - 01:59:54.580

to do, and all this stuff he was going to handle. And it was one of the organizations-- every organization in Greensboro he'd been chairman of. And even when-- I guess when the babies were real little,

01:59:54.580 - 02:00:03.660

the polio epidemic broke out there. Bobby had just been born, and Betty was two. And he was instrumental in moving all the things out of the polio hospital.

02:00:03.660 - 02:00:14.780

I mean, the hospital that they made into a polio hospital. Even with two little babies, he still-- that's the kind of person he was. I mean, he gave of himself just very, very freely.

02:00:14.780 - 02:00:23.820

And he knew how to do things. He could get money. I wish he were here now to help us get money, because I'm telling you, he knew how to do it.

02:00:23.820 - 02:00:31.780

But I mean, he just knew how to present himself. And that's the kind of person he was. But he was so outgoing. I think what happened to him--

02:00:31.780 - 02:00:40.060

there were no more fields to conquer for him. He'd done it all. He'd been everything. He was one of the three most influential men in Greensboro

02:00:40.060 - 02:00:49.060

elected to this big thing, which maybe doesn't sound so great, but it was then. And it was a big pie in the sky for him, and we were all very proud of him.

02:00:49.060 - 02:00:54.420

But what else do you do with yourself? You know, the time has come. Now, I play golf. I go fishing.

02:00:54.420 - 02:01:04.220

I do this, that, and the other. But just all of a sudden, I guess I just didn't feel the bill anymore. And it was a very sad time for me.

02:01:04.220 - 02:01:12.500

But people kept-- we had a little house down on the lake that we'd go down there and fish all the time. And people would call me from down there and say, you better come down here.

02:01:12.500 - 02:01:19.900

There's some hanky-panky going on. I said, get off my back. You're just jealous. Anyway, hanky-panky, you know, hanky-panky.

02:01:19.900 - 02:01:28.580

The time came, and I knew I couldn't have it. I came on three times, and three times I'd go back, and it was the same situation. So then I knew I had to leave.

02:01:28.580 - 02:01:37.500

And I went through a year of horror because he didn't want me to go. He didn't see any reason why I couldn't stay there. All of his parents, his father and his grandfather

02:01:37.500 - 02:01:43.740

had had these various privileges, and why couldn't he do the same thing? I said, well, I'm sorry. I love you too much.

02:01:43.740 - 02:01:50.580

I can't do it. If I didn't care for you at all, I could. But I can't stay here. What situation it is, so I left.

02:01:50.580 - 02:01:59.020

But we got the divorce proceedings straightened out so that I am able to live halfway comfortably. We didn't have any mutual property there

02:01:59.020 - 02:02:05.740

like you have in Texas. So of course, he had the bulk of it. But that's OK, as long as I have enough to get by on oatmeal and stuff.

02:02:05.740 - 02:02:12.020

-By this time, your children were grown. -Yep. They were all grown. Debbie had just finished college.

02:02:12.020 - 02:02:23.540

It hit her the hardest. I think the older kids maybe were a little more worldly than she was, even though she was born in a later time. She had no hint that there was any problem at all.

02:02:23.540 - 02:02:36.460

And I'm not blaming him for it. It was just a situation that happened. -What got you through that? -Well, I had to go have some psychiatric help for one thing.

02:02:36.460 - 02:02:43.680

And the last thing he said to me was that-- I said, I have to do something. And I don't know what to do. I'd been to my priest to talk to him.

02:02:43.680 - 02:02:53.460

And he was very supportive. But I said, I don't know. If you could just teach me how to live with this dilemma, I would be eternally grateful.

02:02:53.460 - 02:03:02.500

I don't know what else to say. I would like to learn how myself to deal with it. He said, well, you can't deal with it. I mean, it's a done deed.

02:03:02.500 - 02:03:11.180

And if you were of another personality, you might be able to handle it. And he said, I think that you would be fit for the nuthouse if you don't make some kind of positive move for yourself

02:03:11.180 - 02:03:19.660

and become a person again. Because I was a nothing. I was the lowest thing under a snail that could possibly be. That's the way I felt.

02:03:19.660 - 02:03:31.580

That's why he'd break up this beautiful, wonderful marriage that we had for 37 years and tinker around. But since then, I've learned a little bit. It's such an unusual situation.

02:03:31.580 - 02:03:46.980

Anyway, I did get some training from him. And then I came on back here and moved in with my cousin. And that's when I started taking dancing lessons. And I attribute a lot of it to just the activity of dancing,

02:03:46.980 - 02:03:58.100

the movement of it, the fun of it, and the finding that I could learn a few tangled steps, that I wasn't totally ignorant just because I had been abandoned.

02:03:58.100 - 02:04:08.420

So that was good for my morale. And then we built the house and drew up plans for that and went through all that furniture movement. And that took a year.

02:04:08.420 - 02:04:16.780

That was a good time. I had a lot to do then. I did. My cousins and I, we didn't have an architect.

02:04:16.780 - 02:04:24.140

We drew up what we wanted and gave it to our contractor. And he built it. It went along and changed things. And that's a good thing.

02:04:24.140 - 02:04:33.620

During this time, Susie, your mom, is in the nursing home. She died the first year. I came in September of '81. She died in January of '82.

02:04:33.620 - 02:04:47.900

So just three months after I came back here. So of course, I went to see her every week. But she got to where she knew me vaguely, but nobody else. Never knew my brother from the time she was put in the home.

02:04:47.900 - 02:04:58.420

But by then, of course, she was 91. So she was just losing her facilities, as we do. And I will not have that happen to my children. -So when you came back here, Debbie came with you?

02:04:58.420 - 02:05:13.460

-And she lived with my brother in Houston for a while. Their personalities didn't get along too well. So I decided I better go get her. And by then, I finished my house so that I

02:05:13.460 - 02:05:22.580

had a place for her to stay. I'm sorry, dumb old phone. It's just that you have to get through. I mean, you cannot just lie back on your laurels and say,

02:05:22.580 - 02:05:32.100

well, OK, this bad thing's happened to me. So I'm going to turn over and die. Or I'm going to turn over and not be productive. And of course, little Debbie just getting

02:05:32.100 - 02:05:41.980

ready to start her life, actually, just out of college. And I wanted to build a house where she could feel like this was our home. She will always feel like home in North Carolina was home,

02:05:41.980 - 02:05:51.980

because of course, they all grew up there. But she's made do with this. And then, of course, after a while, she got two or three good jobs and got her own place.

02:05:51.980 - 02:06:02.740

-And what else did you get involved with besides dancing? -Well, I got into landscaping. -Talk about that. -Well, after we built the house, I

02:06:02.740 - 02:06:10.820

had this professional landscape-- I had done the churchyard in North Carolina, the Episcopal churchyard. And I won a medal for that, something

02:06:10.820 - 02:06:20.060

to do with the city's most improved something or other. And I was really proud of that. So we just took nothing, saying-- and I went before the church.

02:06:20.060 - 02:06:25.500

And I said, now, I don't care what you have in your yard that you don't want. You bring it. If you don't have anything to bring,

02:06:25.500 - 02:06:32.180

bring me $5 or $100 or whatever. And we'll put all this stuff together. And we'll get out of this awful-looking yard that we have.

02:06:32.180 - 02:06:39.380

We have a whole block. And it was just disaster row with not even any decent grass on it. So I had the best time doing that one

02:06:39.380 - 02:06:49.180

and got that all fixed up. And we had a little playground in the back for the kids. And we had a little children's cut flower thing, which they use for the little children's altars.

02:06:49.180 - 02:07:01.420

And that was kind of fun to work with the kids. But back to my landscaping, I'm diverse. I called a couple of landscape companies. And they do up all these elaborate plans.

02:07:01.420 - 02:07:08.020

And they had all these curves going here. And I looked at it. And I got so dizzy, I couldn't stand myself. And I said, I don't believe I want that.

02:07:08.020 - 02:07:12.900

I want a country place. I want it to look like Texas. That's hill country. That's where we are.

02:07:12.900 - 02:07:24.220

And so I said, I believe I won't take that. So I just started in the backyard and started in one little area and dug out rocks and threw them back behind me until I made a little bed.

02:07:24.220 - 02:07:31.580

Because see, I go down just like this. And you have to build your bed up to where it would at least hold the water. So little by little, I just built it up.

02:07:31.580 - 02:07:41.860

And then the contract that built my house was building a condo over there. And he said, well, why don't you come landscape this? My little cousin was with me, Libba's little sister.

02:07:41.860 - 02:07:52.180

She had lived in California. I live in North Carolina. So that made us experts to do Texas landscaping, of course. But anyway, off we go to do this big condo over there.

02:07:52.180 - 02:07:59.300

And that turned out pretty well. And that was written up in the paper. So we were kind of proud of that. And it just went on from then to then.

02:07:59.300 - 02:08:09.340

And I got in real deep water, though, trying to install a watering system, what we called leaky pipe watering system. It worked in Dallas.

02:08:09.340 - 02:08:18.500

It doesn't work here. Lost a whole lot of money on that one. But anyway, got through that and got Uncle Sam paid back for all the stuff.

02:08:18.500 - 02:08:28.820

And then I just started in a much slower pace. Had about 10 or 15 guys working for me at one time. That wasn't any fun. I like to be in it and get my own hands dirty

02:08:28.820 - 02:08:41.940

and fix it the way I want to, move this rock and squirrel that around there and everything. So then Patsy, my little cousin, her husband retired. And so she said she didn't need to stay in the business anymore.

02:08:41.940 - 02:08:52.900

We were called Granny's Country Gardens because we were both grannies. But then as time went on, the guy that worked for me for years developed a heart condition.

02:08:52.900 - 02:09:00.900

I don't wonder because he worked like crazy. Pick up a railroad tie and sling it over his shoulder. But after he left, I just kind of lost the heart to stay into it.

02:09:00.900 - 02:09:09.380

I had to go to manpower and get help. And they didn't know what they were doing. I'd have to stay with them the whole time. So it never was a lucrative occupation.

02:09:09.380 - 02:09:18.300

I guess it was more of something I enjoyed doing than anything else. But I made ends meet. And I got through it.

02:09:18.300 - 02:09:27.020

But now I still love to do it. I do a lot of stuff. Just people call me up and I go and say, plant this here and that there just for fun of it.

02:09:27.020 - 02:09:35.860

-And then there was another love of yours that you started here. -The dancing? Yeah, well, I had taken dancing lessons.

02:09:35.860 - 02:09:44.980

I said when I first came back to try to fill in the lonesome times. And that was such fun. And I was spending an awful lot of money.

02:09:44.980 - 02:09:54.940

Dancing is expensive. And I had this big area down in the lower level. And I thought, now if I just knock this wall out and that wall out and move these glasses back like that,

02:09:54.940 - 02:10:04.420

I could have about 1,050 square feet of dancing floor. So that's what we did. And then I started getting private teachers to come in and teach.

02:10:04.420 - 02:10:09.860

And that worked out fine. I'm still doing that. And it's comfort for me. I'll sit at my table and they're working a jigsaw puzzle.

02:10:09.860 - 02:10:15.900

And I hear the music down there. And they're teaching a lesson. And it's kind of fun. But I had to get out of the dancing world.

02:10:15.900 - 02:10:26.060

Because I went to a lot of-- what do you call them? Competitions, you call it. Starzick tournaments were the competitions. And one time, my knee gave way.

02:10:26.060 - 02:10:36.220

And another time, my ankle gave way. And so I realized I was on the arthritis trip. So I just can't dance anymore. -What kind of dancing did you really enjoy?

02:10:36.220 - 02:10:45.420

-I liked all of it. We did everything. Tangos and the valses and the black struts and the jitterbugs.

02:10:45.420 - 02:10:56.620

-Can you tell me about some groups that come out and visit and about the little-- maybe a special story about a little boy? -Oh, about the gardens?

02:10:56.620 - 02:11:07.620

Well, people have been kind enough to ask me to do something occasionally with their children in schools and things. And so this class-- I think they were second graders.

02:11:07.620 - 02:11:13.860

I'm getting a crack in my leg. Anyway, they came. I guess there were maybe about 20 of them. And they came down.

02:11:13.860 - 02:11:21.020

And I was supposed to show them how to do the planting and how to feed this little plant. And this little plant gets hungry like you do. And this little plant gets thirsty like you do.

02:11:21.020 - 02:11:27.300

So you don't ever want to neglect them. How would you feel if your mama neglected you and gave you no food and stuff? And if a plant's up in the ground,

02:11:27.300 - 02:11:33.340

it's your responsibility. And you must take care of it. Because that's important. Just like you do your dogs and your cats and your animals.

02:11:33.340 - 02:11:41.460

So anyway, we were running all around the house and everything. And one little boy came up. And I was studying with the ones in the front, letting them plant their own little plants

02:11:41.460 - 02:11:50.380

and showing them how to do it. And he came up with a mouthful of green stuff. And I said, what in the world do you have in your mouth? He said, oh, Miss Benn, you have the best clover

02:11:50.380 - 02:11:59.380

I've ever tasted in my life. And I said, oh, my lord, that is not clover. It's whatever it is. Anyway, I said, it's not good for you to eat.

02:11:59.380 - 02:12:06.780

And another thing, do not ever eat anything at anybody else's house. Unless your mother tells you, OK, here's a carrot, here's an onion, that's OK.

02:12:06.780 - 02:12:14.100

But don't eat any plants. Don't ever pick up any plants at anybody else's house. Because they might spray them with dyes and none or some of the bad sprays.

02:12:14.100 - 02:12:21.340

And if you eat them, that would not be good for you. So they all wrote me little thank you notes about how nice it was. So I come to my house.

02:12:21.340 - 02:12:29.860

This one little boy said, oh, Miss Benn, thank you so much for showing us your garden and letting us plant things and everything. And also, thank you for not spraying your flowers

02:12:29.860 - 02:12:36.620

or I'd be dead. [LAUGHS] I just thought that was the sweetest thing, that little boy. He'd be so little.

02:12:36.620 - 02:12:49.660

He'd be just dead as a doornail if I sprayed my flowers. But see, I'm sitting right on top of the creek down here. And that's another reason I don't use any of the bad sprays. So we're trying to stay as near the environmental situation

02:12:49.660 - 02:12:58.240

as we can. -Since you've been back in Austin, have you done volunteer work of any kind? -Oh, yeah.

02:12:58.240 - 02:13:08.580

Well, everything I do at the church is volunteer. And I did a school program down there. They had a little atrium type affair that was pretty hard. It's pretty hard one now.

02:13:08.580 - 02:13:16.500

But anyway, I just can't go in and keep it. I just can't. I'd love to be able to do something and then stay with it and be sure that it's kept.

02:13:16.500 - 02:13:29.540

But I don't have the time to do it and keep my own yard since I lost my health. But I do a lot of stuff like that. And I did something for the-- oh, gosh, what's this?

02:13:29.540 - 02:13:35.100

Ronald McDonald. Fixed a little place. And they wanted a kind of a-- well, I started to say columbarium.

02:13:35.100 - 02:13:44.420

It's not that at all. But each of the little children whose parents had stayed there, if they-- when the child passes away, they put a little rock with the child's name on it.

02:13:44.420 - 02:13:53.460

And they wanted that fixed in a special area so that the rocks would show. They were just all kind of clustered together. So we fixed that in kind of a little drop-down place

02:13:53.460 - 02:14:04.740

with soft, soft little petals of a lighter color. And then put those in it and put some background stuff around. Turned out kind of cute, kind of restful looking. Anyway, they said they were pleased with it.

02:14:04.740 - 02:14:18.020

So I hope they were. -Of all the things that you've done in your life, what are you the most proud of? -Well, I guess I just have to say my family.

02:14:18.020 - 02:14:28.220

I mean, they are me. And they are my husband. And I loved all the different activities I was in. I certainly loved being in the WASP.

02:14:28.220 - 02:14:35.500

And I would have liked things to have been different, worked out a little bit different with the WASP through the years. But it didn't.

02:14:35.500 - 02:14:49.380

And I just hope against hope that something that we've done, some maybe contribution that we've made, will for one thing, give women incentive to know that they can do things.

02:14:49.380 - 02:14:56.300

I mean, there's so much stuff. Oh, well, she can't do that because she's a woman. She can't do that, and blah, blah, blah. A lot of stuff we can.

02:14:56.300 - 02:15:05.460

Some of the back-breaking stuff we can do. And I think we need to recognize that. But a lot of stuff that they thought years and years ago, we can't do, we can.

02:15:05.460 - 02:15:13.180

And we need to. And I think I'm preaching a little bit. But I think one thing, because I've been through it, that every woman needs to do

02:15:13.180 - 02:15:24.220

is have some kind of an education or a backdrop to fall back on the time may come. You don't think it's ever going to come when you get married. It isn't ever going to happen to me.

02:15:24.220 - 02:15:35.780

But I tell you, when all of a sudden you end up with no charge accounts and no money in the bank, and you're there all alone, and you don't know where to go, I had a little bit of money in my mother's account, which

02:15:35.780 - 02:15:47.140

I was able to spend to stay alive. I couldn't go back to my house till things were settled. But prepare for emergencies. I mean, you must prepare for emergencies,

02:15:47.140 - 02:15:57.540

because you don't know when it's going to come. And if you go down in your doldrums and just lie in bed all day and say, I can't do this, I can't do that, you can't.

02:15:57.540 - 02:16:14.820

It's just a will. -What do you think the legacy of the Watts will be? -I really think the time will come when we'll get rid of this little bit of negativism

02:16:14.820 - 02:16:25.020

that I'm reading in some of the reports that came out just as we were graduating, and even later on when they were trying to decide whether to give us status or not as veterans.

02:16:25.020 - 02:16:37.540

I think that's going to pass. I think that little by little, maybe through programs like this, whatever, people have to understand that we did what we did, not for glory and not for praise

02:16:37.540 - 02:16:48.380

and not for gee whiz, I can fly an airplane and you can't, hee hee hee. We really and truly thought we were helping. And I really and truly, from all my feelings, think we did help.

02:16:48.380 - 02:16:57.260

I'm not blowing my own horn or anything, but I'm just saying we did what we felt we were best qualified to do. And I could have gone out and pushed a broom around

02:16:57.260 - 02:17:08.420

the barracks or something, and I felt I could do better than that, I could do more than that. My life seemed like I could put more into it than that. And of course, you get out what you put into it.

02:17:08.420 - 02:17:19.380

So I think we're going to be OK, because I think the children now, my children and my grandchildren, are intensely interested. And they say, mother, why didn't you ever tell me that before?

02:17:19.380 - 02:17:28.300

Why do I have to hear it second or third hand? Well, honey, I guess I didn't realize that you were that interested. But they are.

02:17:28.300 - 02:17:42.500

They are interested, and so are their friends. And I have great high hopes for us. I really and truly do. And I think that so many of us are still positive in action

02:17:42.500 - 02:17:51.340

and not negative. And that's where you get in trouble. You go seeping down the drain pipe. You've been on a step, and you climb, climb, climb up

02:17:51.340 - 02:18:06.380

to the top again. -Susie, what do you think your legacy will be? -My personal legacy? I think it will maybe be brought out through my children

02:18:06.380 - 02:18:24.220

and through how they conceived of me as a person and how maybe I was able to get through a few difficulties and still remain open and above board and still have hope. I personally don't think I've done any great earth

02:18:24.220 - 02:18:35.100

shattering things, per se. But I think everybody gives a little bit. And if you give as much as you can of yourself, it has to be accepted somewhere.

02:18:35.100 - 02:18:46.700

As I was telling you when I made this talk to these people, they were so eager. This was-- I don't know whether I mentioned it or not, but it's from the University of Texas.

02:18:46.700 - 02:18:55.460

The older people were there. They had to be 51 or something. It's really hard to get into this organization because they have people from all over the country

02:18:55.460 - 02:19:02.100

come and speak. And I was very flattered that they asked me to talk about the WASP. But they were so, so sweet listening to me.

02:19:02.100 - 02:19:11.100

And I think I said one thing to them that maybe got us kind of on even footing. I said, well, somebody started asking questions. And I said, well, they said, weren't you scared

02:19:11.100 - 02:19:17.580

crying up there? And I said, I'm more scared sitting here in front of you guys, you learned people, than I ever was in an airplane.

02:19:17.580 - 02:19:21.500

And they said, oh, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. We're OK. You know, we're not-- just go ahead and tell us

02:19:21.500 - 02:19:29.380

now what happened. But they were so sweet. And it's fun to be in a group like that that really care. You don't-- I didn't see any negativism.

02:19:29.380 - 02:19:34.100

I didn't see anybody saying, oh, you spent so much of the government's money learning to fly. And then what happened?

02:19:34.100 - 02:19:41.900

You broke up. Well, we didn't break up. We were appropriately willing in all these times, as you know, when women could fly all these aircraft

02:19:41.900 - 02:19:50.340

later that the guys had not been privy to. And they couldn't fly them yet. I mean, they had to be trained in that. And we already had the trainees ready to go.

02:19:50.340 - 02:20:01.700

But I guess they do the best they can. But I'm confident, and I feel good about it now. All right. Do you want to tell us about your children now?

02:20:01.700 - 02:20:08.820

Yeah, well, let's see. My son is in North Carolina. Took over his father's business. He's president.

02:20:08.820 - 02:20:17.540

Fall right into his footsteps. President of this, chairman of that, and all that good stuff. So he came by that honestly. And he's doing very well.

02:20:17.540 - 02:20:28.340

My first daughter, her first marriage, tragic thing, but it ended in chaos. She married a doctor. And they had-- well, everybody has problems.

02:20:28.340 - 02:20:35.740

But anyway, things didn't work out for them. And she knew there was going to have to be a split. It was exactly the same time that I was going through my problem in North Carolina.

02:20:35.740 - 02:20:42.500

But she wouldn't tell me because she didn't want to throw anything else on my shoulder. So I had no idea. And I was calling, I'm sure, and bawling my head off.

02:20:42.500 - 02:20:52.220

Blah, blah, blah, blah. But the one thing I really tried to do was to have the children not blame their father so much. I didn't want him to be pushed down the drain.

02:20:52.220 - 02:20:59.100

I didn't. It has to be part of my fault. It has to be. And I tried so very hard not to say negative things

02:20:59.100 - 02:21:10.980

because there were so many positive things about him that there's no need to go into anything negative. But anyway, she married an older man. And it's been better.

02:21:10.980 - 02:21:18.140

This situation has been better. The first marriage, there was a little problem with one of the children. And I think her first husband just

02:21:18.140 - 02:21:25.780

couldn't accept the fact that he could have a child that there was a problem with since he was this big, eminent doctor and all that good stuff. But we're over that now.

02:21:25.780 - 02:21:34.980

And Betty has done wonderful things. She only went to school two years, as I said. But she has, what do you call them, degrees from several different places where she's made talks

02:21:34.980 - 02:21:43.580

and where she's been instrumental in starting schools for children who had problems similar to her child's. And she could never be paid anything because she didn't have a degree.

02:21:43.580 - 02:21:53.140

But she'd start the schools, and she'd hire these people to come in. And she got them through a bad crisis. And then, of course, little Debbie then, of course,

02:21:53.140 - 02:22:04.340

will be my baby, even though she's 42 years old. But she's still my baby. And she has the three children, and she's doing fine. She's making a good housewife, and she's selling

02:22:04.340 - 02:22:11.660

discovery toys from her home. Try to get a few pennies come in. Her husband's doing quite well. He's with the state.

02:22:11.660 - 02:22:22.180

And so they're OK. My kids are OK now. -If you could say something to your grandchildren or your great-grandchildren or children

02:22:22.180 - 02:22:41.420

that you have never seen who watch this take 25, 50 years from now, what would you say to them that might encourage them to succeed? -I guess the first thing I'd try to say to them

02:22:41.420 - 02:22:53.480

is that you don't give up. You stay in there and give it your best shot. And if it doesn't work out, maybe it won't. But then you'll find something else.

02:22:53.480 - 02:23:03.660

If the first thing that you set your heart and your mind to and you spend all this time working out for yourself, I'm going to do this and give it everything you have, and sometimes it just doesn't.

02:23:03.660 - 02:23:11.900

Well, it may be that this wasn't actually what you were meant to be. Maybe you have skills in another area that you hadn't even thought about.

02:23:11.900 - 02:23:21.220

But don't say, OK, because I didn't make it this time. I give up. I'll go be a ditch digger. You go find something else that you can sink your talents to.

02:23:21.220 - 02:23:30.860

But stay in there and pitch and give it everything you have. I think that's what life's all about. I really and truly do. I'm not trying to preach.

02:23:30.860 - 02:23:41.100

I'm just saying that if you don't go in-- well, somebody was saying to me one time, you know, your family are so competitive. And I said, well, of course.

02:23:41.100 - 02:23:47.540

What else is there? I mean, you go in to win. And I thought that's what it was about. You don't go in to say, and it's not whether you win or lose.

02:23:47.540 - 02:23:56.300

It's how you play the game. I wanted to win. And I gave it my best shot I had. I remember one time my sorority beat the Pi Fives.

02:23:56.300 - 02:24:04.020

I think they were the big wigs on the sorority when I first came over here. And we beat them in swimming. And I was instrumental because I did some pretty good dives.

02:24:04.020 - 02:24:11.860

And I thought that was the most glorious thing in the world. We had beat the Pi Fives at something. Well, that was good for me. That built up my ego.

02:24:11.860 - 02:24:21.500

And that's a big part of it, I think, is self-esteem. And you've got to think you can do it. And I don't know. I guess my mother and grandmother were responsible.

02:24:21.500 - 02:24:32.140

And my father, too. He was very smart in his own way. He was just-- I don't know. Don't let me go sit outside the gables with this guy anymore.

02:24:32.140 - 02:24:47.260

Daddy, that wasn't the thing to do. I wonder, is there anything that I've left out or that you can think of that you would like to be included in your history

02:24:47.260 - 02:24:58.580

that I've forgotten? I don't know. It seems like we've talked a little bit too much and maybe told stories out of school.

02:24:58.580 - 02:25:08.140

I didn't mean to implicate anybody, certainly not anybody in my family, or cause any harm to anybody. But you want the truth in something like this, I think.

02:25:08.140 - 02:25:19.140

And telling a bunch of big stories about this, that, and the other is not going to get us anywhere. We need to know what really happened. But the one thing I guess I am concerned with more

02:25:19.140 - 02:25:30.420

is there's so much talk now about this ADD situation. I'm concerned with that. I don't know how far that goes. I mean, because a child doesn't pay attention in school,

02:25:30.420 - 02:25:39.820

does he suddenly have ADD? Attention deficit, of course. But they're given so many drugs and stuff for things like that that I'm a little bit opposed to.

02:25:39.820 - 02:25:48.420

There are children I know that have to have them. I'm trying to say, where do we draw the line? Where do we decide that a child just needs a little more time to grow up?

02:25:48.420 - 02:25:59.260

Maybe he's not quite developed enough to get A's in this particular subject this year. But does that mean that he has to go to a special school and take drugs so he'll feel up on top of the world?

02:25:59.260 - 02:26:11.460

And make him feel, if you can, on top of the world from his own volition, not from some outside resource. People have to have certain drugs. I know that.

02:26:11.460 - 02:26:18.980

And we have to survive. I do too. Take heart medicine, blood pressure medicine, and stuff. But let's not get so overwhelmed that we're

02:26:18.980 - 02:26:29.140

going to spend so much of our time coping with things that maybe we could handle ourselves if we just trained ourselves to trial a bit harder. And I don't know.

02:26:29.140 - 02:26:36.260

Maybe I'm talking out of school. I don't know. But those are the things I truly believe in. I don't want the drug scene.

02:26:36.260 - 02:26:45.020

I know my granddaughter, who was just here, said some of the kids in her class had been taking this-- what is it? Redline.

02:26:45.020 - 02:26:54.100

For years and years, said they just sell it to the other kids. And it gives you a little feeling of a high. And see, that's wrong. That scared the heck out of me.

02:26:54.100 - 02:27:03.740

But I'm no doctor, so-- I'm about to say. I just want-- I want happiness for people.

02:27:03.740 - 02:27:15.020

I want them to see that you can find happiness in different ways. And I don't think in marriage, anything else, that you should expect a total utopia.

02:27:15.020 - 02:27:29.500

I don't think God promises red roses or rose garden or whatever, however the cliche goes. But I think it gives you the strength to take whatever talent you have and move it into a direction

02:27:29.500 - 02:27:40.340

that you can be comfortable with and that you can be proud of. And you don't have to be valedictorian or something. You don't have to be the head of your class and everything else. But if you do it up to the extent of your ability

02:27:40.340 - 02:27:47.580

and as far as you think you can go, you probably know yourself if you could have done better on that test. If you couldn't, study a little bit harder the next time.

02:27:47.580 - 02:27:55.620

Don't just say, oh, gee, I made a D. I'll never get through that course again. Find out why you made a D and take it from there. But do something.

02:27:55.620 - 02:28:07.060

Don't sit on your laurels and rock. When I first came here, I came to retire. And I got me a little rock and put it down on the front porch. And I thought, oh, well, I'll just sit here

02:28:07.060 - 02:28:11.860

like a granny is supposed to do. Knit one, purl two. I'll learn how to do all this needlework. That's just a fine thing.

02:28:11.860 - 02:28:21.260

Well, I realized that is not me. Now, that's wonderful for grannies, that that's a part of. It is not a part of me. And I told my grandchildren, I don't bake very good cookies,

02:28:21.260 - 02:28:32.140

but I can buy cookies. And you are certainly welcome to come over at my house any time. But don't expect me to be a stereotype-type grandmother, because we're all different.

02:28:32.140 - 02:28:40.100

I guess I learned that from when that psychiatrist told me about my first daughter. He said, she doesn't need me here, but you sure do. [LAUGHS]

02:28:40.100 - 02:28:50.500

So I want things to be good for me. It's a good world. My mother was absolutely on top of the world all the time. And she had all kind of things happen in her family.

02:28:50.500 - 02:28:59.580

It's the oldest daughter would have. It was always her responsibility to take care of everything. All the children that things went bad with her mother and dad when things went bad, she was the one

02:28:59.580 - 02:29:10.980

that the responsibility was put to. It seemed like there's always one in every family. But she did it with such a fun-loving attitude that you never thought about my mother being put upon.

02:29:10.980 - 02:29:17.980

Well, of course she took care of it. She's my grandmother. Of course, my mother, the kid's grandmother. Of course she did it.

02:29:17.980 - 02:29:30.580

So anyway, I've really had a good time talking to you all. It's kind of fun to get this out of your system sometimes. And you wonder, have I blabbed too much? You've done beautifully.

02:29:30.580 - 02:29:39.900

Well, thank you, honey. And thank you all for coming. I hope we will get a log that's down on the archives so that people can get a general idea of how things were

02:29:39.900 - 02:29:48.900

with us back in the days, the good old days, as we say. You have moved it along. Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

02:29:48.900 - 02:29:55.660

It was my pleasure. OK. That's great. You don't have a favorite word, do you?

02:29:55.660 - 02:30:00.720

Favorite word? Yeah. I hadn't even thought about it. Flowers.

02:30:00.720 - 02:30:10.440

[LAUGHTER] I'm perfect. OK. Oh, that's terrific.

02:30:10.440 - 02:30:20.480

Well, I hope we got something out of it. Oh. I enjoyed doing it. I could go back and pick out lots of jewels.

02:30:20.480 - 02:30:28.640

Oh, goodness. Lots of jewels. That was great. Well, it just made-- as I said, while we go about getting old,

02:30:28.640 - 02:30:39.960

is that these things keep coming back to me. And I wonder where they're coming from. I mean, I hadn't thought about them for years and years. And that's kind of a fun thing that happens to you.

02:30:39.960 - 02:30:50.240

It's amazing how many things-- Are similar? In our time. Where did you go to school?

02:30:50.240 - 02:30:56.440

College? No, no, no. Too big for me sometimes. Yeah, Christmas, I don't know.

02:30:56.440 - 02:31:11.160

There's something about Christmas that I can kind of judge. But she has a collection of tens of chocolate molds. And they're worth like $5,000. Oh, wow.

02:31:11.160 - 02:31:15.400

You tell me what you want. I was going to get Bay City High School. I think that's pretty cool. OK, can you get that?

02:31:15.400 - 02:31:20.160

Mm-hmm, I got that. Oh, yes, it is. Big deal. Yeah.

02:31:20.160 - 02:31:27.000

It's a bigger deal than you think it is. Well, it was then. Absolutely. It was.

02:31:27.000 - 02:31:35.760

Let me see. That's where my boyfriend's-- Oh, wow. I learned the hard way it didn't work.

02:31:35.760 - 02:31:41.480

Kimbrough, K-I-M-B-R-O-W. Oh, yeah. Oh, really? I've never heard that before.

02:31:41.480 - 02:31:47.400

Oh, Pearson said so. Oh, really? Something about what? Her being--

02:31:47.400 - 02:31:52.320

About Cochran and Hep Arnold having a little-- Affair. Oh. Tony affair or something.

02:31:52.320 - 02:31:59.720

Cool. But it's just-- If you can get it with a camera, then maybe I can transcribe it.

02:31:59.720 - 02:32:13.080

Yeah, well, I can see if we can take some stills off of here. See, I can capture what I'm doing right now. I can then take this home and make it into a still picture. Oh, you're so--

02:32:13.080 - 02:32:20.440

See, we didn't know that. I asked you what you did in high school. Well, you know. Just a few things.

02:32:20.440 - 02:32:27.300

Your life's just been too full. Everybody did little stuff like that. UIL? What?

02:32:27.300 - 02:32:32.360

You did UIL? What is that? [PHONE RINGING] I don't know where to ask.

02:32:32.360 - 02:32:39.560

We'll check that. There's something interesting. I don't think I'm in that. That's just some kind of--

02:32:39.560 - 02:32:44.640

Oh, well. Yes, keep going. Just turn the pages, and I'll just-- that's OK.

02:32:44.640 - 02:32:53.800

I'm good. OK. These are passages and invitations. I just think there's a big advantage

02:32:53.800 - 02:33:00.400

to going to small schools. Oh, what did you do? All those parties that we're giving. We had the dress.

02:33:00.400 - 02:33:07.920

This was the lady that gave it. And that's me. Oh, wow. Everybody hung out on their big old hooped skirts

02:33:07.920 - 02:33:17.120

and everything, going with the wind, tea dance. How neat. But in certain grades back then, you'd have to take exams. But I knew it was ahead of me, so I was--

02:33:17.120 - 02:33:24.880

this was so sneaky. I shouldn't tell you all this. I was late to school enough times that if you-- to punish you, they made you take your exams.

02:33:24.880 - 02:33:33.040

And I didn't study real hard, and I beat him on the-- by the final exams. Wasn't that terrible? Oh, no.

02:33:33.040 - 02:33:41.160

But it was ahead of me. I knew he was going to win. No, that was important. I remember--

02:33:41.160 - 02:33:47.280

I needed the scholarship. No, I remember something you said in there. And for me, I wanted to win. Yeah, well, you do.

02:33:47.280 - 02:33:53.320

I didn't care if I didn't get anything. I know what you're saying. I don't think I got anything. That's true.

02:33:53.320 - 02:34:02.240

But this is all just a bunch of-- But I went-- Because I was always so-- oh, this is from my friends when I went down to visit my cousin.

02:34:02.240 - 02:34:09.840

And I had never been kissed. I wouldn't even kiss this guy in Springtown, Missousi, because I didn't want to be kissed till I was 16. I just thought that's what you did.

02:34:09.840 - 02:34:18.400

And so they sent me a telegram, and I had just turned 16. And they said, have you been kissed yet? Let your hair down. Good luck, Martha Bobbin Village.

02:34:19.120 - 02:34:28.520

And I wrote them back. And I'll never forget what I said. I said, nope, not yet. Hope so soon, found right guy.

02:34:28.520 - 02:34:37.080

Aren't those silly things, though, that you think about? Well, but you don't have that much-- you don't have that many places. --young and smart, I'll say, with many a heavy sentence

02:34:37.080 - 02:34:42.600

to pay. We kill and slay and murder, too. That's not a thing we seven won't do. Wasn't that dreadful?

02:34:42.600 - 02:34:51.920

We're handsome, aye, and clever much. That's why we never get in touch. People say as we go by, such darlings, they're sweet as pie. PS, we need a general name.

02:34:51.920 - 02:34:58.920

Everyone suggests something below. But oh, this was such a big deal. These seven little girls, they're always terrible. We never did, of course, any of that.

02:34:58.920 - 02:35:07.920

And I can imagine every other girl in school hating you. Well, yeah, we thought we were hit. Sure, if we didn't know, we weren't. I got one of those.

02:35:07.920 - 02:35:17.200

Thank goodness. Yeah, your writing seems lighter than on mine for some reason. I think what is it? I don't know.

02:35:17.200 - 02:35:24.440

It's an airplane. I don't think it's a 17. I don't know what it is. I know it.

02:35:24.440 - 02:35:33.320

It was a-- Mammaraw, I think his name was. They're a PT-17. But don't we look like we came out of Mars or something?

02:35:33.320 - 02:35:38.440

Oh, yeah. And snow, me too. I'd never seen snow before. Yeah, remember?

02:35:38.440 - 02:35:49.840

Wasn't that wonderful? I have a lot of Betty, because we were so close. Mom, if you see one that you want me to zoom in on, tell me, because I can't really see what I'm doing here.

02:35:49.840 - 02:35:59.160

I'm just trying to kind of get the overall general look how much fun Susie had in training. Oh, yes. This is--

02:35:59.160 - 02:36:03.820

Susie must have had a camera. I didn't have a camera. Oh, there's-- isn't that Tanner? Mm-hmm.

02:36:03.820 - 02:36:06.760

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this is blue.

02:36:06.760 - 02:36:15.080

I think that was mine. Where are you? This is one of our instructors. Let me know when we see one of you, because--

02:36:15.080 - 02:36:25.280

Was Tanner in your bay? Susie. Susie's scrapbook. I think they said she has some kind of cancer.

02:36:25.280 - 02:36:35.080

Well, certainly lung cancer. It was-- and I can't remember. Somebody that Nancy knows. Who?

02:36:35.080 - 02:36:42.000

But OK. Want me to move it down for the wishing well? That'd be good. Lens or something.

02:36:42.000 - 02:36:50.040

What are you wishing for? Pass that check, right? Yes, exactly. That's Betty.

02:36:50.040 - 02:37:01.320

That's good. It's kind of dark out. He's the one that washed her out. We had landed at the auxiliary field,

02:37:01.320 - 02:37:09.560

and I was shooting landings. And one time when I came in on a landing and started-- because it was just-- But Susie's not in there?

02:37:09.560 - 02:37:17.640

My wingtip was going to hit that fence, barbed wire, till I just stopped. But he never washed me out. But he didn't.

02:37:17.640 - 02:37:27.240

And I knew I could fly that airplane. I think he knew I could fly that airplane. Well, that's what Betty said when this guy washed her. They just didn't click.

02:37:27.240 - 02:37:32.000

And I'm sure she didn't care about the four-letter words either. Mm-hmm. But killed.

02:37:32.000 - 02:37:41.000

I can't think of her name. She's the one that landed belly up one time on the-- when we were at the field, the practice field, whatever you call it.

02:37:41.000 - 02:37:45.560

At the auxiliary field? Yeah. She landed belly up. She forgot to put her wings up.

02:37:45.560 - 02:37:50.520

And she was in our class? She was in your flight? Mm-hmm. Uh, no, I can't--

02:37:50.520 - 02:38:00.160

See, and I don't even remember that. I remember-- Got no one. Got it.

02:38:00.160 - 02:38:06.160

See, she can see what she's taking in this little side thing. Oh, a grin. Oh, I see.

02:38:06.160 - 02:38:17.280

And my sister does this a lot. But they will get a group together, and it depends on what you want to study. I asked that Nancy knows who was a fighter pilot in Vietnam.

02:38:17.280 - 02:38:31.040

Mm-hmm. He called and said, before winter would set in. Then another time, they went to the Amazon and toured that. So they're very educational.

02:38:31.040 - 02:39:19.120

But when I spoke to that group, I asked them-- Damn it. Yeah, that's right. See, now, isn't that tragic?

02:39:19.120 - 02:39:33.620

So you never heard of that story. Such extenuations could not escape militants by armed training. --recruited to release men for active service.

02:39:33.620 - 02:39:40.120

Now they say the WASPs are just replacing men, period. Do a person. I hate him. I really do.

02:39:40.120 - 02:39:50.120

Isn't that-- oh, that's terrible. Far from being picturesque heroines, the WASPs were now regarded as participants-- The challenge is to get the stuff on the glass off.

02:39:50.120 - 02:39:59.620

You know, it's got a glare on it. Oh, yeah. Now, this is your grandmother. That's really extraordinary.

02:39:59.620 - 02:40:14.120

What's extraordinary is that you have it. Yes, it is on top of the big picture. But I wouldn't take anything for them. It's just such a sweet-- such a sweet picture, just lovely

02:40:14.120 - 02:40:19.620

picture. With you and-- Yeah, we have a special deal. Sure.

02:40:19.620 - 02:40:28.120

And it's so hard for me to try to tell Debbie, because Debbie wants so much to help and be a part of this. She wants so much for everybody to know and love her children. But--

02:40:35.120 - 02:41:11.120

[WIND BLOWING] [WIND BLOWING] [WIND BLOWING] It's interesting to me.

02:41:11.120 - 02:41:19.120

I try to figure out what in the world's going wrong with my crazy family, but I'm not sure I can always tell. Well, listen, they all love you, and I

02:41:19.120 - 02:41:26.120

think that's the most important thing. Well, I do have a good, happy family. Right. And I'm glad that there's not tension.

02:41:26.120 - 02:41:34.620

Uh-huh. You know, if I-- Yeah, and they had a little cafe there. They had been there for years, 50 years or whatever,

02:41:34.620 - 02:41:40.100

that her grandparents had eaten there, everybody, All the farmers coming in eight days.