00:00:03.880 - 00:00:13.620

Army, Navy, Air Force. Army, Army, and he was in anti-aircraft. Okay, what was his rank? Master Sergeant.

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We perish with wings across America. Today we are interviewing Shirley Cruise. Shirley was a Wasp, Class 44/6. We are in her home at Pompano Beach, Florida.

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Today is the 30th of April, 2003. The videographer is Nancy Parrish. Okay, Shirley, if you'll start off by giving us your full name and when and where you were born.

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My name is Shirley June Chase Eggler-Cruz. That's a mouthful. I was born on June 22, 1922 in Kearney, New Jersey. And Shirley, what was your mom like?

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My mother was a mother to end all mothers. I have to tell you, she was not a very well-educated person as far as schooling was concerned, but she had a great know-how on how to communicate with children, and especially her own children. We went through the Depression together, and she was probably very keenly aware of how that would affect us perhaps in later life,

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And she always tried to make the best of every situation and let us all realize, the three of us at home at that time, that there were better days ahead and that is what you had to look forward to. And your dad, what was your dad like?

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My dad was a funny little guy. Had not a great sense of humor. showed a great amount of affection, but loved to fish and if you wanted to get on the best side of him all you had to say was, "Hey Dad, let's go fishing." And you could rest

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assured that that's where you'd go, you'd go fishing. But he was a fine dad, he was a disciplinarian, and yet he had a very soft side to him, so he was a great dad. What did your dad, what was his occupation? Well, my dad did many things and during the Depression he did anything that he could bring

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home some money for. He worked as a mechanic during those years. Actually he had been an accountant on Wall Street when the Depression came and so he fell from a nice position to practically nothing and always kind of managed to keep us going.

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So I guess he was pretty sure. Tell me about your siblings. Well I had two half sisters. My mother had been married several times.

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Both of them a bit older than we three. I was the youngest of the three children. I had an older brother who became a doctor. I had a sister who became quite accomplished at managing a resort and a restaurant, and

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then myself who worked for the Postal Service. And your step-step-sisters? Yes, my two step-sisters actually were a lot older than I. And my eldest sister, Helen, actually was like a mother to me.

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She kind of replaced my mother when my mother was busy with other things. She would come home from work and bathe us and put us to bed as youngsters. So she was really a second mother. Right.

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From the time you can remember, were those stepsisters living in your home? Did they live with you? Well, my eldest sister Helen was married when I was about four, I believe. I served as a little flower girl at her wedding.

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And then of course she moved out. And I don't remember much except that even when she was married, she would come home and spend a lot of time with us. And she was into the routine of taking care of Gertrude

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and I during the evening. And so she would bathe us and put us to bed or read to us or do some of the menial tasks that my mother was free. When you were young, before you started school, where did you live?

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Did you live in town or on the outskirts? No, we always rather lived in the city. My grandparents, during the Depression years, owned a home up in the Bronx. So we lived there, which certainly helped us to go through the Depression years.

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lived there, I'm sure, rent free. And that had to have been a tremendous help to my parents. But I lived in the Bronx and then summers we would go to the grandparents' home in New Hampshire and the other up in Ulster County, the other grandparents, we'd go up to Ulster County, New York in a little town called Rosendale and they lived up there.

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What are your fondest memories of those grandparents? Let's see That's kind of a hard question. I remember Grandfather a fisherman also. No, he was a carpenter and

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He taught me as little as I was about seven or eight nine years old He taught me how to sigh, you know, one of these great big sigh things He taught me how to cut grass with it and my when my grandmother saw me out using it And she scolded him because she was sure I was going to cut off a foot.

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It was as big as I was. But anyway, they were very loving people, but really disciplinary. My grandfather on the Chase side was really a Yankee, came from New Hampshire, and generations from New Hampshire and Massachusetts.

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The other grandparents had come from Europe. So I had kind of a nice childhood with both grandparents, spending a month in New Hampshire and a month in Rosendale. Okay.

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When you would go up to New Hampshire to visit, did they live out in the country? They did. They lived in a little town, and it was at the foothills of the White Mountains, and they lived there for, it was a summer home, no heat in it, and a huge rambling, white,

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typical New Hampshire home. Okay. What would you do there? Would you, were there other children that you played with, or was it just your siblings?

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Did you all go? >> Yes. When I say all, of course, the youngest, the three youngest, which was my brother Bill, Gertrude and I would go.

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And there was a little small river, you might call it, or a large stream, whichever, and ice water. And of course, we swam there every day. And we'd walk up the road on this dirt road

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and pick up milk at the next farm. So we always had something to do. We went berry picking with our grandparents and my great-great-aunts.

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So, yeah, we kept busy. It was a wonderful, wonderful month. >> Right. Did they have farm animals? >> No, my grandparents didn't because they lived in the city

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in the wintertime and then just went to this place in the summer. >> Would your mom go with you when you were little? >> Yes, always. >> And your dad, would he stay and work?

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>> My dad would stay in the city and work and then come up maybe every couple of weekends. >> Okay. When you were growing up, tell me what was a Christmas like in your home?

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>> Probably a lot different than the children have today. I think our Christmases were made up of very few presents and usually things that were needed in our life. I can remember the first long pair of ski pants that I had, and in those days it was

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almost unheard of for girls to go out in a pair of pants and go skiing or anything like that, and yet that's what I wanted one Christmas and got them and went skiing. >> I think the memorable part of Christmas is for us was always to get up on Christmas morning and see

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that wonderful decorated Christmas tree and a few presents underneath it and the loving mother and father. >> Right. Would your parents decorate the tree or would your children? >> No, we never saw the tree at night when we had,

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I think it was a typical German Christmas. You went to bed not even knowing you had a tree and you'd wake up in the morning to this marvelous, and mother and dad must have stayed

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up all night long to do it. Yeah. And I have to tell you, talking about Christmases, I have to tell you about one very special Christmas to me that will never, ever be forgotten.

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And that was during the Depression, and we were living on Belmont Avenue up in the Bronx, New York. And mother had been warning us that there would be no, you know, Santa Claus didn't always come, you know.

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And these were pretty hard times. So we were not to expect anything. So we were pretty happy with the thought that we weren't going to get anything. It didn't mean that much to us.

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And then of course on Christmas Eve, I think they told us that we probably wouldn't even have a Christmas tree this year. So we all went to bed thinking that, you know, we are just going to be another day. And we got up in the morning and we had a wonderful Christmas tree.

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And I get a little choked up. My father—I am sorry. My dad went out sometime after all the people had discarded their trees where they sold them and he brought one home.

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And it was probably my best Christmas. Kind of a sad one, but it was the best. Kelly: No, that is not sad, that is happy. Tell me about Christmas dinner.

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Would your grandparents come to your home? No, I don't think they ever did. I think it was just our family and probably my older sisters and their families. Do you remember Christmas dinner being different?

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No, very traditional. Where did you start school? Wow, I started school in New Jersey. Were you close enough to walk?

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How did you get to school? Well, Mother walked me to school the first day and I beat her home. She walked me to school the second day and I beat her home. So, I was determined I was not going to sit in that classroom unless she stayed with me

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because I did not like that teacher. But at any rate, I finally got used to the idea of being left there and managed to stay. In the wintertime, with all the snow, did you still walk to school? Yes, always.

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What was your favorite thing about school when you were small? What did you enjoy? I think I enjoyed being with the other children more than anything. I was into playing games and things like that.

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I loved to do anything that was exciting as far as playing ball or jump rope or any of that. I think my association, I think I look forward to going to school to see the other kids. Do you remember some of the other games aside from jump rope?

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Oh yeah, kickball, basketball, lots of other. Anything that had to do with sports I was into. Do you remember a teacher that might have had an influence on you? Yes, several.

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Tell me about those. One was a gym teacher and his name was Mr. Bishop. He probably has made more of an impression in my life as far as any outsider was concerned because I was aggressive and I guess I never wanted to sit still if I could run.

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And he kind of put everything for me into context. And he would talk to me about behavior, because I could be a bit of a problem in school and the teacher would ask a question, I would never raise my hand. I'd blurt the answer out, right or wrong, I'd blurt it out.

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So I was a classroom problem. And I guess he realized that I had this kind of an attitude. And he really put a lot of things into context for me. How would you be punished for doing things wrong in the classroom?

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Staying after school, but I didn't mind because that was the second best teacher I had. I liked to stay with him, he let me clean the boards. And it was always fun to be with him.

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And I can't remember his name, but I can picture him very clearly. When you finished elementary school, was that the first six grades or eight grades? Eight. Eight.

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Then you went into high school. Did you have to change buildings? Oh, yes. We moved frequently while I was in grammar school.

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I attended a school in New York City and then we moved to New Jersey where I finished my schooling at my grammar school and then we moved up to New York State because my grandmother was ill and mother moved up closer to her. My father was commuting into the city, he had a job at that time.

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I went to high school up there and finished up in a school called New Paltz. In moving around elementary school, changing schools, how did that affect you? It had a definite effect on us. For example, we went from New York to New Jersey and there they were, I know at one

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time, I think in the New York school system you were on half year and New Jersey was not like that. So I can remember my sister being in the last half of the school term and I remember she she had to repeat that by starting all over into the year before that. So it was quite

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different and the studies were different too. For example, we would be someplace in history or in English and I would go to the other state and they would be in a different area or whatnot, so it was a little difficult. But, you know, grammar school is not very difficult to get through.

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Any idiot can do it if they apply themselves. So I guess this idiot got through. >> How about leaving your friends? >> Never minded that because I was always --

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I think really it has taught me a lot of good things. I mean, I realized people have said, "Oh, Shirley, you've gone to six grammar schools." It never bothered me.

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I met new people all the time and always enjoyed meeting people. To this day, I love to go someplace that I don't know anyone and meet somebody new. There's always someone so interesting.

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>> Right. >> Yeah. >> When you went to high school, did you live close enough to walk? >> Actually, no.

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We were bused to school, but they had no-- in those days, they had no buses after school if you stayed for any after school activities. So, I walked about two and a half miles home.

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You wouldn't let a child do it today probably because of the traffic on the road, but we did. We would walk home from school two and a half-- at least two and a half miles, maybe more.

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>> And even in the wintertime? >> Even in the wintertime. >> And for lunch, what would you do? And for lunch, we usually either packed a lunch,

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mother would pack a lunch, or we would have it in the cafeteria. - Do you remember your favorite thing in that lunchbox? - Probably fruit.

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- In high school, what extracurricular activities were you involved in? - I played field hockey, I played basketball, I played softball, and I guess any other sport

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that the gals had, we played. >> In some of those sports, were you in competition with other schools? >> Yes.

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>> Okay. How did your parents participate in school, in your school? >> Well, mother never missed any kind of a sport activity. She wasn't active in the PTA, and my father never,

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ever came to much of anything. But mother always was on hand to see us participate in sports or any other plays or, you know, singing, whatever. >> Okay. As far as homework, do you recall your mother

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or father helping you with homework? >> No. >> You were on your own. >> If my brother was quite intelligent and older,

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And I hated to, but sometimes when I'd be stuck, I would ask him. Okay. May I interrupt a moment? Sure.

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Could I? In high school, other than the sports, what else were you involved in? Drama? Yes.

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I was going to say in the theater and in singing groups. And we did some Pirates of Penzance and things like that. And both my sister and I danced. We had both taken dance lessons from my older sister Helen and went on after she passed

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away and then we went on and took other dance lessons. And so we did a lot of dancing. Do you remember a favorite part that you might have had in a play? Yes, I do.

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I remember playing in Dolly. I was the, I can't remember what her name was, but she was the old bitty, that's the part I played. I can't remember what she was or what her name was, but Dolly and, oh I can't think of the name, it was a number of years ago. I did that in a group in New

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Berg, that wasn't in high school. But in high school I think probably the Pirates of where all those hoop skirts and all of that was such fun. Did you play any musical instruments? No.

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In high school, what was your social activity like? Well, of course, the sports, and dated a lot of boys, and went to a lot of dances, and really. And then there was a very nice group of us,

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maybe about 16 or so, that kind of all would go from one house to the other and on a Saturday night would say, my mom says we can all get together here,

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that type of a thing. - In high school, for Christmas, did you still observe it the same way? - Yes, we did.

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At Christmas time, did you attend things like pageants, or were you ever in pageants or plays? No, I was not. I helped with them in our church when I was as an adult,

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and when I was teaching Sunday school. Then we all contributed something to that. Right. How did you start teaching Sunday school,

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after you got out of high school? I started teaching Sunday school after my family was born, after my two children. In high school, what was your favorite subject? Probably history.

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And who were your role models? I think my eldest sister, Helen, was a role model for me. I think she had such an active hand in my life that I kind of always remembered what I thought her to be.

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Do you recall what your ambition was when you were in high school? What did you think you would become? I wanted to be a race car driver. Yes, I did.

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Technically I did. But of course, you didn't, back in those days, you didn't stand a chance. My father was not very encouraging. When you graduated, before you graduated, did you have a high school prom? Yes.

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Tell me about that. Well, I went with a young man that I had been going with for about a year and had a very good time. And it was not as good a time as I thought it was going to be. I kind of always felt that there was such a buildup to it that it was kind of a letdown.

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Did he pick you up in a car? Yes. Do you recall what you wore? No, not at that dance, but I do at some of the other dances.

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I can't remember that one. I think it was a white dress with red polka dots, but I'm not sure. Not sure. But do you remember that young man?

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Oh yes, yes I do. And as a matter of fact, he lives up near my daughter, who lives up in New York State, And I'm hoping one of these days that I can visit him, he and his wife. Tell me about your graduation from high school.

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Very simple. We had a baccalaureate service and then we had the actual graduation. We got our diplomas. We all met in the hall and whooped and everybody went to a party.

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That was about it. Did you have caps and gowns? Yes, we did. How about how large was your graduating class?

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I think about fifty maybe. Before you graduated even, did you know what you were going to do after you graduated? Had you planned ahead? Actually no, I had not.

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I do not know that I even knew what I wanted to do at that point. I knew I would like to be racing cars, is what I would like to have done, but of course that was not readily available to me. Did you go to race car races?

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No, I did not. How did I ever know about them? I am not too sure. I think I just read about them in the paper, but it always sounded so exciting.

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The summer after you graduated, did you take a vacation? No, I don't think we did that year. I think that was the summer that I had decided I was going to do some flying. Growing up, did you ever go to summer camps?

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Never with other children, no. When is the first time that you saw an airplane that you got the idea that you would love to fly? Probably when I was about thirteen or fourteen and we lived.

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And those days on a Sunday, my father would take the children and my mother always after lunch, go for a long ride wherever Mother wanted to go. And I can remember driving past Teterboro Airport and there was a big sign out and it said "Fly with us" or something like that, five dollars, you know, for an hour, whatever

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it was. And I, of course, became very excited and reached over and said, "Dad, my birthday is coming up, can I do that?" You know, and he said to me, "Don't be silly, Shirley, you know, girls don't fly."

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Well when we got home, Mother took me aside and she said, "Shirley, if you want to fly, can fly. And it was always back here. So that, when I graduated from high school, I guess not knowing really what I wanted to do, I decided I was going to look into the possibility of flying and that's what I did.

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Did you know any other girls who were flying? None. What made you think you could do something that you didn't even know girls could do? My mother's confidence in me, believe it or not.

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Tell me about the first time you went out to the airport. Wow, that was exciting. I went out to the airport and I think I went out with some friends that had a little plane out there.

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We had met these people and went with them out there and they said, "Do you want to go up for a ride?" And of course my answer was yes. And I went up and I came down completely thrilled with what we had done and got myself a couple

00:27:32.860 - 00:27:52.880

of flights, lined up and went home and told mother. I was living at that point down in New Jersey and so it was about a forty-five mile, fifty mile drive up to the airport. And my father always made sure I had the car available to go and he helped.

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He had you gotten a job by that point? No, I think then I was still in college. I had gone to college that year and I think I took one or two lessons, that was all that year.

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And then when I stopped college I got myself a job and then I really went into farming. Let me go back and see when you started college. How did you decide which college to go to? Just the one that was the most convenient.

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We were living in the area and I went to New Paltz. In the meantime, my parents had moved back to New Jersey. So I stayed at college and then about, I don't know, sometime, maybe it was April of that first year, I went home and someone had called for—I can't remember how that worked out,

00:28:54.260 - 00:29:11.720

but I remember at that time, I think it was my sister Gertrude was going to have a job interview and she could not make it. So I went and I got a job at General Electric for $12 a week. Did you drop out of college?

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I dropped out. I went back up and dropped out of college. And of course the dean there was so nice. He said to me, "Well, Shirley, you can always come back if it did not work out." When you started college, what was your plan?

00:29:26.780 - 00:29:43.660

be a school teacher. And was that because that's what girls did? It was convenient. It was the school. It was inexpensive. And at that time my mother and dad were paying for my brother's college education and there really wasn't enough

00:29:44.200 - 00:29:55.460

money to go around for all of us. And was it the mindset in those days that the male is the one that really needed to go to college? Yes. Very much so.

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Once you dropped out and got a job with General Electric, did you still live at home? I did. And to get to work, how did you get to work? I had a car and I drove to work.

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And it was while you were at General Electric then that you went out to the airport? True. Up to New York State to the airport. Then when you decided to take flying lessons, how did you find an instructor that would

00:30:25.980 - 00:30:43.120

teach you? Just through that first experience that I had flown at the small airport. There were instructors around and I spoke with them and found one that was available and I was interested in teaching and so I went with him.

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And you worked during the—did you go up just on the weekend to fly? What was the first airplane that you went up in? I think it was probably just a little Piper Cub. As you began to take flying lessons, did anything happen that you might want to tell us about

00:31:07.980 - 00:31:25.720

out of the ordinary? No, I did meet a girl. I think I learned about the WASP organization or the WASP group and at that time I was flying at this airport and there was a girl up from the Jersey coastal area and I am not sure

00:31:26.700 - 00:31:46.040

where, and her brother was stationed. There was a big air base up there, Stuart, which was what West Point cadets were flying out of. Her brother was an Air Force pilot and he was flying up there, so she went there to

00:31:45.940 - 00:32:02.640

be near him and was flying with me weekends and I got to know her fairly well. And she told me about the WASP program. She said, "Why don't you enroll?" She furnished me all the information and she also had enrolled and she was in, I think,

00:32:03.080 - 00:32:19.140

a class, two classes ahead of me, which would have been, was that your class? 44-4. And, you know, I hadn't thought about that until just now. I'm not sure if she went or if she --

00:32:19.140 - 00:32:29.360

because her brother had a mid-air collision up there and of course was killed. And she went home after that. So I don't ever remember hearing from her again.

00:32:29.440 - 00:32:40.520

But I know she had been part of the CAP program on the coastal area where she was living. And to this day, I've never heard another word from her. But she is the one who enlightened me about the wasps.

00:32:40.610 - 00:32:54.700

>> Okay. Before that time, do you recall where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor? Yes, very definitely. My husband was home, and it was prior to his going to Panama.

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He was home and we were picking out an engagement ring, so yes, on that Sunday morning. Had you already married before you started flying? No. Okay.

00:33:11.240 - 00:33:35.980

How do you feel that Pearl Harbor changed America? Wow, I think I would have to think about that for a long time. As far as occupations for women, how did it change? That was a tremendous—first of all, the women kind of took over in all branches and

00:33:35.960 - 00:33:51.760

in all fields and in all endeavors. And I think, of course, we as women in the pilot organization certainly proved that women could and did do a good job. So I think it was a great opening for us.

00:33:52.760 - 00:34:12.600

I think after the war, I think they kind of tried to play us down a bit. But as far as aircraft factories, for example, how did the role of women change? Tremendously. They just, they did everything the men could do and it was a proven fact that they were

00:34:12.600 - 00:34:39.680

as equally as good. When you heard about the WASP program, what did you think they were being trained to do? I think we were just told that it was going to be part of the Air Force and that there would be different fields that you would be into.

00:34:39.880 - 00:35:06.400

And I am not sure that I even knew exactly what that was, except that it was an opportunity for women to fly and to be acknowledged as pilots. It was kind of an opening for us that we had never had before. Kelly: When you were learning to fly, how were you treated as far as the male pilots

00:35:06.400 - 00:35:20.120

and instructors? Diveney: Perfectly well. That is prior to going into—yes, getting my private—my own time, yeah, fine. Kelly: Do you remember your solo?

00:35:20.330 - 00:35:30.060

Diveney: I do. Kelly: Tell me about it. Diveney: Wow. I can remember practicing landings and takeoffs with my instructor and feeling very confident,

00:35:30.320 - 00:35:39.300

"Oh, I could do this. This was easy." All of a sudden on one of them he got out and I said, "Whoa, wait a minute. You can't leave me here."

00:35:39.300 - 00:35:53.320

He said, "Yes, I can and you're going to do it." I think I sat there for five minutes and shook. I was scared. I said, "Well, I guess it's now or never and it's surprising."

00:35:53.320 - 00:36:06.660

I landed that plane, I took it off and landed it, taxied over to him and he gave me the sign and felt pretty good about it. It was exciting. Were you ever able to take your mom or dad up?

00:36:06.920 - 00:36:23.840

Never. I have never taken my children up, except for one daughter last year and she flew with me and she had white knuckles all the way. So you kept flying on weekends and kept your job.

00:36:24.660 - 00:36:43.280

Then when you heard about the WASP training program, who did you contact to even get an application? I don't even remember. I think this friend of mine from the Jersey coast gave me all of the particulars and I

00:36:43.340 - 00:36:56.620

must have done whatever it was suggested doing. I don't remember doing it, but I know I did it. Never thought much about it then afterwards. She left, her brother was killed, and she left, and I really didn't think too much

00:36:56.740 - 00:37:08.280

about it. I just figured, I guess, that I'd never hear from them. And lo and behold, I had a notification that I had to go down to Mitchell Air Force in Long Island for my physical.

00:37:10.920 - 00:37:32.820

And that was something that was not nice. I went through that with a bunch of cadets. If you can picture a bunch of cadets going through first with one single woman coming through later, it wasn't nice.

00:37:35.980 - 00:37:45.480

It was not a, if I had gone home and told mother and dad what had happened, I'm sure they would have been. Did they make you strip in front of them? Yes, yes.

00:37:46.360 - 00:37:53.320

Oh, okay. They did. And not only that, but they left me there for a while, while they left, and then came back.

00:37:55.200 - 00:38:05.100

Were these Army doctors? Yes. Army or Air Force, Mitchell Base, I don't know what it would have been. They were officers of some sort, and young.

00:38:07.960 - 00:38:18.460

Did they say anything to you? Never. They never said anything that was unkind or whatever, but they never furnished me with a robe or a towel or anything.

00:38:20.640 - 00:38:44.540

It was really a no-no. I have not told many people about that, I have to tell you, but it was an embarrassing situation for a 21-year-old young woman. When you, after you had your physical, did you have to have a conference with anybody

00:38:44.900 - 00:39:03.020

or an interview? Yes, I think there was an interview. I'm trying to place where that was and I don't know that I can. I'm not sure about that, but I do sort of remember an interview with someone and I can't

00:39:03.160 - 00:39:19.120

remember where it was. But then the next thing I knew I had gotten a notification that I was to report out at my own expense out to Sweetwater, Texas. What did your mom and dad think about your going into training?

00:39:19.720 - 00:39:29.340

They thought it was great. Good. Very encouraging. In the meantime, had either of your siblings gone into service?

00:39:29.820 - 00:39:44.880

My brother had. How did you feel about that, when he left? Of course, he was such a favorite of mine that I was really crushed, but I had every confidence that he'd be coming home, and he did.

00:39:47.360 - 00:40:04.680

I just felt good about the fact that he was coming. Were the two of you ever able to come home together in your uniforms? Never. When you got notification to report, had you ever been to Texas?

00:40:05.280 - 00:40:21.140

Never. That was across the world. How did you get from New York to Sweetwater? My parents took me down to Newark to the Penn Station, put me on a sleeper, and I went

00:40:21.000 - 00:40:37.540

through Chicago and met another girl, and I'm not sure, I think it was Marjorie Edwards that was on the same train that I was on, and we got into Sweetwater and went to that -- >> Blue Bonnet?

00:40:37.550 - 00:40:48.240

>> Blue Bonnet. That's what it was, the Blue Bonnet Hotel. Right. Met some other gals, and the next morning, out comes the cattle car for us, and we were home free.

00:40:49.860 - 00:40:58.340

Sheís got to change tapes. Okay. Okay, good. Oh, youíre doingóoh, I wish everybody were this animated and this excited.

00:40:59.580 - 00:41:19.420

Sometimes I ask something and they just say, ìOkay.î Tell me your first impressions. Well, first of all, your first impressions of Sweetwater and the Blue Bonnet Hotel. Well, I had never been into a hotel that had pictures of cattle on the wall.

00:41:20.500 - 00:41:42.060

All the prized cattle, I mean all the hotels that I had been to and my dad and mom in New York, you know, to a banquet or something, had beautiful pictures on the wall. In this little, darling little old-fashioned hotel, where everywhere you walked around Edward did these big bulls, pictures of big bulls.

00:41:44.000 - 00:41:55.720

I was absolutely flabbergasted. I was wondering what kind of country this was. I expected to see the cowboys come up with the guns in the hand. That was my impression of Texas.

00:41:56.810 - 00:42:28.240

Kelly: And when they picked you up in this cattle truck, describe this cattle truck. Oh wow, it was just a—look to me as I remember it, it was a truck body and it had this big cattle enclosed truck on the back that we sat in and they moved us all—and it was a large group of us—and they moved us all out to the base, to Avenger Field.

00:42:28.760 - 00:42:43.960

And it was very, very rustic, to say the least. And when you got out to Avenger Field, what was your impression of that? Well, I thought it was marvelous. I was so excited.

00:42:44.840 - 00:42:54.660

First of all, I remember seeing the picture of the big Fifi standing there up on—I think it was—I can't remember. All I can picture it. Being there.

00:42:54.660 - 00:43:04.480

On the gate? Yes, I think it was. And we went through this gate, and I am not sure if it was on the gate or if it was on a building, but there she was.

00:43:05.960 - 00:43:13.860

I was pretty impressed. I thought our accommodations were fine. I mean, I heard the gals complain about it. I was so happy to be there.

00:43:14.180 - 00:43:35.500

They could have put me to sleep on the floor and I would have been perfectly happy. Kelly: Describe what buildings were there. As I remember it, there were several buildings in the front as you came through, where we got out and we walked through and there were, I think, some offices.

00:43:36.510 - 00:43:50.160

And then there was some place where you could go in and buy some food. There was like a small restaurant. And I remember the first hamburger I had in there, I had never had it with mustard on, and they told me that was Texas style.

00:43:51.160 - 00:44:13.620

So to this day I like mustard on my hamburger, but at any rate I never had anything but ketchup on it until that point. But then behind those buildings where there was a ground school building in that area and then further on back were the bays, a large, rather low constructed buildings where

00:44:14.160 - 00:44:25.160

they had many bays. I do not even remember how many they had, but a whole grouping of buildings and six lived in a bay. Were these concrete buildings?

00:44:25.460 - 00:44:41.900

No, as I remember they were wooden. Were they air conditioned? No. When you got to Avenger, when you all got out, did they explain the rules to you?

00:44:42.920 - 00:45:00.400

And what were some of the rules? Well, as I remember, when we got out there were people to take us and they immediately took us to the area that we were going to live in. I think they put us in our bays and gave us some sort of instructions what to do from

00:45:00.480 - 00:45:06.220

there. I— How were you assigned to those bays? Alphabetically.

00:45:07.440 - 00:45:36.660

Tell me about your bay mates. Oh, they changed from day to day, especially in the beginning when we would take a lesson or two and someone would wash out. But I stayed with a few right from early on. We were all so interested in flying and we had such a common goal that they were very good sisters

00:45:36.660 - 00:46:02.640

And I had never ever looked forward to living with women before. Even as a youngster growing up, I had more boys that I played with because they were into more of the sports than the girls were at that time. So I think probably I had a lot more friends that were boys than friends that were girls.

00:46:02.940 - 00:46:14.940

So I was not a girl thinking I could get along well with the girls, but I had no problem. They were great. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make? Getting up early in the morning.

00:46:17.060 - 00:46:36.440

I was a slow waker and they would make sure I was the last one out of bed because I was miserable. Describe for me what that bay looked like inside. As I recall, there was a center doorway, a little walkway walking up, not very—center

00:46:36.860 - 00:46:57.420

aisle down, and then the walkways went into each bay. There was a center doorway with a screen door on it, and on each side of the room there were three beds and a locker. And then, as I remember, there were some desks or something down at the end of the building

00:46:57.420 - 00:47:08.220

where I think we could do some writing or studying or something. And then there was the bathroom, which several people shared. And these beds, what were these beds like? Cots.

00:47:08.760 - 00:47:19.000

They were cots. Army cots? I would say they were army cots. In the baymates, did you all come from similar backgrounds?

00:47:19.660 - 00:47:41.140

Very varied. Were there any really unusual backgrounds that you recall? I do remember one person who came from a rather wealthy southern family who had been married, who had a three-year-old son, who left her child.

00:47:41.240 - 00:48:03.120

Her husband was a lawyer and she left her child home with the nanny. But she had nothing good to say about black people and we used to argue with her constantly. She had nothing good to say about the black people, yet she left her most prized possession home to be cared for by one.

00:48:03.820 - 00:48:17.520

And that was always so foreign to me. I couldn't understand anyone with that kind of an attitude. She was very bigoted and she washed out and nobody minded. We were always under the table.

00:48:19.500 - 00:48:29.920

>> Since you arrived at Sweetwater in January. >> It was cold. >> Okay. How was your bay heated? Did you have a stove in there?

00:48:30.030 - 00:48:37.460

>> I don't remember a stove in there. I think it must have been centrally heated. I don't even remember. I can't ever remember being cold in there.

00:48:38.040 - 00:48:47.580

But I don't think I really noted. Where did you eat? We ate in the mess hall. Tell me about the food.

00:48:50.180 - 00:49:05.400

It wasn't my mother's German cooking, I have to tell you that. To this day, I still don't particularly like ribs because we got an abundance of them there, barbecued ribs. I didn't like them then and I can't say I like them now.

00:49:06.140 - 00:49:17.420

So there were many times I did without meat, which was fine. But the food I cannot complain about. There was an abundance of it. Good breakfast, always fruit, fresh fruit and things like that.

00:49:18.920 - 00:49:32.500

I did not find it hard to come by. What was ground school like? And where did you go to ground school? In Sweetwater at the ground school building.

00:49:34.160 - 00:49:56.000

We took, I guess as I remember it, we alternated. Our class was split in half alphabetically, and one half would do in the morning, would do the Flight 9, and the other half would do the ground school, and then we reversed. I do not know whether we reversed the next day or the next week, I do not know how that

00:49:56.040 - 00:50:20.460

was handled. But there were large rooms in the ground school, and I remember in one class we had the engine up in front of us and we all tinkered with that. We had a very competent engine instructor and I found it very difficult, the ground

00:50:20.560 - 00:50:31.180

school part. What was the hardest thing for you in ground school? The engine class. That to me was the most difficult.

00:50:31.420 - 00:50:43.180

And yet I thought it was so well taught that even I learned. Do you recall Morse code? Oh yes, yes. And I loved that.

00:50:44.180 - 00:51:05.060

To this day we still do the da-da-da-dits a little bit, not much, but I liked it. Go through a typical day. a very early get up, I think at that point we went for breakfast. And after breakfast we always had PT.

00:51:06.980 - 00:51:30.380

And as I remember, rain or shine, cold or hot, we got out there with a physical trainer and went through all of these calisthenics, which were great. And I can honestly say I never felt more fit in my life because I felt that was all a great part of flying an airplane.

00:51:30.940 - 00:51:48.780

Anyway, after that I guess if it were ground school, that's where we would go to. And after ground school we'd have our lunch and then we would go to the flight line in the afternoon. Then it was dinner at night and studies and to bed by, as I remember, 10 or 10.30, lights

00:51:48.900 - 00:52:08.900

out. Okay. Describe your uniforms. The first ones? They were anything but pretty. Youíd go past this clerk and he asked you what size you were, you know, youíre in, and youíd say, ìIím a size 8 or 10 or whatever

00:52:09.000 - 00:52:23.220

it was.î And heíd lay the uniform down in front of you and they were all either large or extra large. Everybody had the same size, big, big. And they were the zoot suits with the crotch that came down about the knees, to the knees,

00:52:23.260 - 00:52:38.080

and we would roll up the bottoms and roll up the sleeves and pull them, hike them up and tie them tight to keep them from falling. And then for our dress uniform we wore khaki pants and white shirts and little caps as I remember.

00:52:39.760 - 00:52:59.000

Then when we graduated, we got our wonderful uniforms, the Santiago blue, which I don't think there's a uniform that can beat it today. And for flying, when it was so cold, what would you wear? We wore those, I guess it was lambswool leather.

00:53:00.280 - 00:53:27.260

We had the pants, the zipped up pants, and the very heavy warm jackets with a nice warm collar and the flying caps that were also lined, and boots. What was the primary airplane that you flew first? We flew the, I guess it was the 17, the PT-17.

00:53:28.160 - 00:53:47.440

The Ryans had just stopped using the Ryans, as I understand. Do you recall your first flight in a PT-17? I thought it was large. It was larger than the smaller aircraft that I flew, but I thought it was exhilarating

00:53:47.500 - 00:53:57.160

with all that breeze blowing around and all that. Gosh darn it, it was cold though. Who was your instructor, do you recall? I can't remember his name.

00:53:57.840 - 00:54:17.440

Mr. Dwyer, yes I do remember it, Mr. Dwyer, Paul Dwyer I think his name was. And all he did from the back seat was sing "Mirzy-dotes and Dozy-dotes" and "Little Lambs Eat Ivy" or something like that. And how would you converse with him?

00:54:19.580 - 00:54:30.820

Well that was before radio, before we had any radio. So it was either by hand signal or he would yell at us, you could hear him. Do you recall your solo? I don't.

00:54:31.440 - 00:54:44.380

I don't remember that. After that first solo that I had up in New York, it was just another day at the office. Did some of your bay mates wash out in primary? Oh yes.

00:54:45.160 - 00:54:55.360

How did that make you feel? Wow. It made us feel very bad. And yet I think psychologically they were very smart.

00:54:56.240 - 00:55:18.480

If you were washed out, you left that night before you had the sympathy of everybody. And I think they were very smart to do what they did. I think it was easier on the person who washed out and also on the people that were there that had been friends.

00:55:21.140 - 00:55:35.920

In primary, did you have time off on weekends? Yes, good behavior. After your Saturday morning white glove inspection. Who would do that inspecting?

00:55:36.420 - 00:55:48.640

The staff at Avenger. And what if they found something that they didn't like? What would happen? Then we were on the demerit system.

00:55:48.920 - 00:56:07.080

and so many demerits and you just didn't get off the base that weekend. So we were always very critical of each other's cleaning up because we didn't want anybody to keep us grounded. Right. On weekends then would you have some time off?

00:56:07.240 - 00:56:23.300

And what would you do with that time? We usually went into the club. Usually we would, if it were a nice sunny day, we sunned ourselves out. Or sometimes we went for a walk or sometimes we just sat around and just chatted a little

00:56:23.380 - 00:56:36.020

bit about each other. And then in the late afternoon we would probably go into Sweetwater and sometimes we would go to that little restaurant that was on Main Street and have that Texas fried chicken or whatever they called it.

00:56:36.820 - 00:56:50.620

And then we would go to the club that was upstairs on one of the side streets and a lot of the officers would come down from the Big Springs and we had a jukebox and we would dance. Do you recall meeting any of the local citizens?

00:56:51.440 - 00:57:20.120

Yes indeed. My friend Mary Breidenbach, whose name is now Mary Hansen, lives out in Palos Verdes and she had gone out, she was in my class, and she had gone out earlier to be there when she was so anxious to get in. And she picked up a job at the base. She was doing something there. And she lived with this one woman in town, a very nice woman. And when

00:57:20.160 - 00:57:42.140

I got to know Mary, we would go out and stay with her once in a while overnight. Do you recall her name? I should know it because we went back a few years ago to see her and her husband. Her husband was a cookie salesman and she had one son and they were the most delightful

00:57:42.300 - 00:57:53.060

people. She was just a charming woman. Did they live on the lake? No, they lived right in town on one of the small streets and I don't remember where.

00:57:53.140 - 00:58:14.140

But I remember we went back, my husband Larry and I went back one time with Mary and her husband Vic, and we did go to see them, which was a nice thing. I wanted my husband to meet her. Did you ever go out to the lake swimming in Sweetwater?

00:58:14.180 - 00:58:35.200

I went out to the lake, yes. I don't think I ever swam in the lake, but I did go out there. Not too often, there wasn't much to do out there. When you finished primary training, did you have some time off between primary and the next phase?

00:58:35.200 - 00:58:59.940

No, we went right through to basic. When you were in '86s, what kind of maneuvers did you do in '86s perhaps that you had not done in the primary trainers? Well, first of all, we had some formation flying.

00:59:01.860 - 00:59:11.960

Also we had night flying. We also had spot landings. What else did we have? Cross country.

00:59:13.880 - 00:59:33.460

I am trying to think of all the things. We had, of course, I think in the basics training too, we had a lot more acrobatics than we had in my private flying. Kelly: Describe for me what a link trainer is and what they were used for.

00:59:33.790 - 01:00:06.900

McMillan: They were used—it was a ground, a stationary on the ground small piece of equipment that you could sit in that had all of the instruments and it was a means of instrument flying. I don't know how to describe it, but it was assimilated instrument flying and you

01:00:06.920 - 01:00:16.800

were graded and you had an instructor that would sit with you outside and communicate with you. Was that difficult? In the beginning.

01:00:17.540 - 01:00:30.220

After a while it was not. I liked it myself. When you were in training, each month a class would graduate. What would happen for graduation?

01:00:30.720 - 01:00:53.700

Well, usually that day, the designated day, all of the different classes would form and there would be a parade on the flight line past the reviewing stand. And it was really very impressive. And I tell you, we gals could really march.

01:00:56.080 - 01:01:12.600

Do you recall ever meeting Jacqueline Cochran? Did she come back for those? Yes, I do not know how frequently, but I do remember seeing her there. I was fortunate to meet her, yes, later on.

01:01:13.680 - 01:01:20.120

After you finished training? Yes. You want to go ahead and tell me about getting to meet her? Yes.

01:01:21.280 - 01:01:45.260

I was stationed at Bainbridge, Georgia, and I was sent to—some orders had come through to send me back to Sweetwater for some advanced instrument training. And we were never told what it was going to be for, but there was something we were told that we were going to be used for, whatever it was, I do not know.

01:01:46.120 - 01:02:06.440

So I went back and we were there. We had some link training and whatever instrument training there in planes. One day the word spread that Jackie Cochran was flying in. So we all met her.

01:02:08.280 - 01:02:29.160

It was sort of, as I remember, it was sort of later on in the afternoon. We sat around the flight line in a circle, and she met with us and told us at that point that we had been deactivated and we were going to leave. I think the date was the 20th of December.

01:02:30.360 - 01:02:55.440

I tell you, there was not a dry eye among us. I think there was just an absolute silence, a dead silence. So we all went home a little unhappy. Kelly: When you were in training, did any of your classmates, were any of them killed?

01:02:56.020 - 01:03:13.080

McMillan: Yes. I recall in one cross country we were on, we had one—and I do not recall her name, I do not know whether it was Marjorie Edwards or—I do not know. You know, the names are no longer with me.

01:03:13.560 - 01:03:35.000

But I remember on a cross-country, she ran into trouble in her aircraft and I think the fluid rope, the fluid line or whatever broke and she was covered with it and she tried to bail out and she did not have enough room to the ground. And so they picked her up.

01:03:36.700 - 01:03:55.680

And then I think there were two other girls who were flying together and they were buzzing and they had an accident and were killed. Kelly: When you were in training, did you know what the girls were doing who had already graduated?

01:03:56.680 - 01:04:22.760

No, I don't think we had, we knew that they moved off into a base, but we didn't have contact with, we were kept so busy and lived almost entirely within our class that I don't know that I knew any of the other, I knew them by sight, but not really on a one-on-one basis.

01:04:23.500 - 01:04:47.800

And so I don't know where any of them went to except we knew that they were doing, you know, some of them were towing targets and some were doing some very different things. Kidney-Describe for me the auxiliary field and what were those used for? Steele-Well, when we would, each morning if we were on the flight line that morning we

01:04:47.720 - 01:05:11.400

would have a lesson with our instructor. And then after that we would bring him back and he would go on to teach someone else. And in the meantime we were sent out with a plane to practice. And so many times we would go to one of the auxiliary fields, which were several around

01:05:11.420 - 01:05:25.960

in the area and we knew where they were, and we would sometimes go and do spot landings or landings and takeoffs or whatever. But they were always there provided in the area that we knew about and we used to utilize them in that way.

01:05:27.620 - 01:05:42.120

When you were at Sweetwater, seasons changed. Tell me about the weather that you had to fly in. Well, let's see. When I got there, it was so very cold and the issue at that time were these heavy leather

01:05:42.120 - 01:06:01.540

fleece-lined flying outfits, which I was in primary and we certainly wore them every time we went to the flight line to fly in. And even then it got pretty cold. And then in the springtime we were advised that you never flew with any kind of an open

01:06:02.200 - 01:06:11.480

any kind of a shoe except a shoe that tied, because if you ever bailed out you wanted to keep your shoes on your feet. I always remember that. When I graduated, I remember buying boots,

01:06:11.580 - 01:06:21.980

you know, the little short boots that hugged your ankle so that you always kept your shoes on. But in the spring, it was very pleasant, and we were into a different phase then.

01:06:22.060 - 01:06:34.260

And then in the summertime, of course, when we graduated, it was pretty hot flying. You'd keep your, you know, keep your plane open up. >> Do you ever remember sandstorms?

01:06:34.360 - 01:06:47.760

>> Oh, yes. >> Describe those. Okay, one late afternoon, we were all called up to the flight line, and the order was to put your heavy flying gear on.

01:06:47.880 - 01:07:08.080

So we put the boots, the pants, the jackets, the helmets, and we trudged up to the flight line. And here, the sand was blowing, and you couldn't, it was almost hurting the face. And so youíd walk with your back to the sand, the wind, and they put us, we sat on some

01:07:08.120 - 01:07:25.140

of the aircraft to hold them down. Literally you were assigned to an aircraft because the wind was so strong and the ones that were tied down were very subject to being blown away. So you got comfortable, sat on the wing of the plane in this heavy equipment until the

01:07:25.380 - 01:07:38.640

sandstorm died down. Were you ever up in the air when a sandstorm came across? No, I was lucky. Tell me about a cross-country you might have made.

01:07:39.340 - 01:07:56.580

Usually it was three legs. We usually took off from maybe three, four minutes apart. You had a starting position. You had to plot your own course and they furnished you with the maps, etc., etc.

01:07:57.160 - 01:08:21.180

And you would have to file your own flight plan, your estimated time of arrival, and you would go to the first checkpoint, you would land, and then you would take off and go to another one and so forth, and you would make the three legs. Do you recall one particular cross country, anything unusual happen?

01:08:21.620 - 01:08:36.200

Yes, one at night. For me, I was on a night cross-country and left Sweetwater. I can't remember where my first leg was, but I know my second leg was coming across San Angelo.

01:08:37.440 - 01:08:57.800

And I remember days before we had been down there, so I had a pretty fair idea of what the field looked like. And when I got past San Angelo, I had a complete electrical failure. So it was about, as I remember, maybe 2, 2, 2, 2.30 in the morning, something like that.

01:08:59.400 - 01:09:17.460

So I said, "Well, I guess what I have to do is to make what I consider to be a 180." And there were some lights in the area so that I had some contact with the ground. So I did what I thought was a 180 and I came over the field and I buzzed it and nothing happened.

01:09:18.020 - 01:09:38.700

did a roundabout, came back and I buzzed it again and nothing much happened. There were some lights on, but not an awful lot of runway lights. But at any rate, I came in and I said, "Well, I'm going to land this airplane because I think I know where I am and whatnot."

01:09:38.700 - 01:09:53.840

There was enough light that I could see. Anyway, I came down, put the landing gear down manually and landed. As I was nearing the runway, all the lights, all hell broke loose, all the lights all over the place went on.

01:09:54.880 - 01:10:11.520

And I landed, and out comes the little jeep that says, "Follow me." And I followed them and got back to the flight line and on the tarmac and started to get out of the plane. And there were people waiting for me, wanting to know who I was and what I was.

01:10:12.220 - 01:10:32.920

I got out in a zoot suit, really very attractive, you know. I had to get out on the wing and I sat down. I can remember hearing this one little linesman saying, "My God, it's a lady." Anyway, when they found out what had happened, they were very pleasant.

01:10:33.300 - 01:10:42.360

And they put me up in the nurse's headquarters, fixed my plane, and I took off about ten the next morning. And what airport was this? I think it was San Angelo.

01:10:42.700 - 01:10:48.600

>> Okay. Did you have to call in to Avenger? >> They did. They took care of everything for me. Yeah, they were great.

01:10:48.900 - 01:10:58.980

Once they knew who I was, where I was from, what had happened. >> Okay. When you got back to Avenger, did you have to meet a board or anything to explain? >> No, I did not.

01:10:59.320 - 01:11:18.300

I do believe I met with the gentleman, I can't remember, read somebody or other, I think his name was in the, up on the flight line and they pretty much had it from the base. What was your favorite airplane to fly?

01:11:18.820 - 01:11:40.020

AT-6. What was different about the AT-6 and the BT-13? The BT-13 was lumbering, but the 6 really, really a nice—and you know, I wanted to go to P-38 school, I wanted to fly P-38s.

01:11:40.840 - 01:12:02.360

And I had a great final instructor and he said to me, "You know Shirley, I think what we could do is to check you out from the back seat of the plane." And so he did. And he put that on my final papers, but I never got P-38s.

01:12:02.820 - 01:12:24.720

Was there anything else that happened while you were in training? Yes. My friend and I, Beverly Kanji-Mila, and I was riding Observer for her. She was flying under the hood. And it was just before lunchtime. We were in the morning session flying.

01:12:26.200 - 01:12:41.480

And she came out of the hood and she said, "We've got about 15 minutes, 10 minutes left before we get back to Avenger." She said, "Let's just fly around and have some fun." So we're flying all around and looking at everything and she's wobbling the stick,

01:12:41.580 - 01:12:52.140

you know, and then I'd take over and back and forth. So finally she said, "It's time for us to go back. Which way do we go?" I said, "I thought you knew."

01:12:52.140 - 01:13:07.320

She said, "Oh Shirley, what are we going to do? We were almost out of gas." So I said, "Well, we can look for a nice place to set it down if that's what we have to do."

01:13:07.320 - 01:13:22.220

We had no radio training up to that point. So she got on the radio and she kept saying, "Mayday, mayday." She didn't know where she was. But at any rate, I wanted to set the plane down if we ran out of gas and she didn't

01:13:22.280 - 01:13:27.600

want to do that. I said, "Okay, you want to bail out? Wouldn't this be great? We could join the Caterpillar Club."

01:13:27.600 - 01:13:44.820

No, she didn't want to do that either. So I said, "Well, darn it, what are we going to do?" Well she finally got to Avenger Field and they said, "Where are you?" Well we described where we were and they said, "Box it in and you stay there and we'll

01:13:44.820 - 01:14:04.340

someone out for you." And we told them we were almost out of gasoline. So, they came out, two planes came out for us, and they brought us in, and I'm saying to Beverly, "Well, Beverly, by six o'clock tonight, you and I are going to be on a plane going home." But they didn't wash us out.

01:14:05.300 - 01:14:29.500

Did you have to go before the board, though? We went in front of somebody or other, I forget, a couple of people, and they said, "Well, know it does happen. They were very, we were shocked. So we didn't, we weren't eliminated but it was hairy. Is there anything else about training? Not for me.

01:14:29.680 - 01:14:55.680

No. Okay and now it's coming time for graduation and you've gotten new uniforms. Describe those uniforms. Absolutely spectacular. First of all they were made by Neiman and Marcus, who furnished us our uniforms. They were Santiago Blue. We had a nice skirt and a jacket and white shirts with black ties. We had the matching

01:14:55.760 - 01:15:20.000

slacks and a cute little hat that went with it, a bag and a top coat, an all-weather coat. That was our uniform and I tell you, we really felt spiffy. Right. Did any of your family come out for graduation? Unfortunately, no, but I have to tell you that we knew our wings were going to be a certain design

01:15:20.240 - 01:15:33.240

and they were going to have the diamond in it. Well, my mother, when I told mother that our wings were a little different, they were going to have a diamond in the center, she thought it was going to be a real diamond.

01:15:34.660 - 01:15:53.220

And she used to write to me now, "Shirley, you fly low and slow." I never did tell her that. When you graduated, did you have a choice of assignments? They asked us to put down three things we wanted to do, and of course I didn't get

01:15:53.260 - 01:16:05.840

any one of them, but then I don't know who did. They sent me to where I was needed, I guess. Did you have some time off? Another week is I remember it, and I hitchhiked home.

01:16:06.960 - 01:16:15.540

On Air Force airplanes? Yes. Do you remember how you felt when you got home in that uniform? I felt like a million dollars.

01:16:16.880 - 01:16:25.820

And your mom and dad? Very proud. Do you remember anything special you did during the time off? at home?

01:16:25.820 - 01:16:57.840

My parents had a very large house at that time and they had a one of the large rooms downstairs was a big library and I can remember Mary Breidenbach came home with me and she had lived in Birmingham, Alabama and I don't know why, whether her parents were away, I Which was really nice.

01:16:59.030 - 01:17:13.120

Any special male friends? No, at that time, no. And then how did you get from New York down to Bainbridge? I went by train.

01:17:15.180 - 01:17:33.180

When you got down to Bainbridge, to whom did you report? Wasn't the commanding officer. I'm not sure if it was the OD, I'm not exactly sure to whom, or whether we were sent to a certain hangar.

01:17:33.880 - 01:17:45.800

I think maybe that's what it was, we were to report to a certain hangar, and then there was an officer in charge. >> Okay. Were there already some WASPs stationed there? >> Yes.

01:17:45.800 - 01:17:57.260

>> Okay. Where did you live? >> We lived in barracks there. I thought they were the officer barracks. Kelly: And what was your assignment to be?

01:17:57.940 - 01:18:26.300

McMillan: Test hopping and ferrying when necessary. Kelly: And how were you received by the male officers, pilots? McMillan: Actually, at first very good. There were always a certain few that were not very nice, either by remark or they would

01:18:26.420 - 01:18:41.820

try to do certain dumb things to the aircraft. For example, not uncovering the pitot tube, whatever they were doing. There were always a couple of them that we just avoided. But other than that, really very good.

01:18:42.040 - 01:18:59.960

Let me ask you, what is a pitot tube? Well, do I have to tell you? Okay. Where did you have your meals?

01:19:00.860 - 01:19:17.020

In the officers club. And what was your social life like while you were there? Very social. It was—we had all of the privileges of the pool and the club and the bar and the dance

01:19:18.260 - 01:19:24.720

floor and all of that. It was really very nice. Okay. And your job, you were engineering?

01:19:25.260 - 01:19:30.280

Yes. Were you engineering? Yes. Describe what it meant to be an engineering test pilot.

01:19:30.700 - 01:19:47.160

Well actually, the planes had been written up as having some problems, mechanical, whatever, and then the mechanics would work on them. And before they would let the trainees fly them again, we would take them out and test hop them.

01:19:47.680 - 01:20:00.720

Kelly: Okay. Did you ever get any cross-country flights while you were there? For example, did you maybe ferry some airplanes? Yes, we did.

01:20:01.140 - 01:20:10.120

We did mostly storage. We flew a lot to Lakeland, Florida. At that time, they were storing them there. Kelly: Okay.

01:20:10.840 - 01:20:22.880

What were they mostly? What kind of airplanes? Dornstein: I think a lot of them were 17s. I do not remember ferrying 6s to there, but I think we did some 13s.

01:20:23.460 - 01:20:35.840

Kelly: Okay. Do you remember any particular flight, if anything unusual happened? Yes, I do. We had a Captain Fury and he was taking a large group of us out.

01:20:36.620 - 01:21:01.640

I think we were in PT-17s at that time and we ran into a bad storm up ahead. So we just turned around and everybody headed back and we did an overnight someplace or other and then the next day went on. On these flights, would it be just WASPs flying these airplanes?

01:21:01.700 - 01:21:14.260

No. It would be WASPs plus some of the officers. It depended, you know, how many they needed at the time. And then once you would get them there, how would you get back to your base?

01:21:14.680 - 01:21:24.140

Well, we had priority on the trains. We always liked to go through New Orleans because there you changed trains from one train. Did you know that?

01:21:24.940 - 01:21:36.060

New Orleans there are two trains, one comes in and one leaves. And they're two different, they used to be two different stations. I don't know what it is now. But we always liked to stay in New Orleans because it was

01:21:36.240 - 01:21:43.020

such a great place to be. >> Okay, you need to change the tape. >> Okay. >> Another tape.

01:21:43.100 - 01:21:49.640

Oh, you're doing great. You're just doing great, Shirley. You're a joy to talk to. >> Oh, you're so nice.

01:21:54.100 - 01:22:08.520

>> Yeah. When you were at Bainbridge, did you get temporary orders to go someplace else? Yes. I was supposed to go to B-25 school in Fort Myers.

01:22:10.860 - 01:22:38.840

I had never liked multi-engine, so I went to this captain who was a friend of mine and And I asked him if there was any way I could be taken off that order. And he said yes, and he removed my name and put someone else on it. Of course, I have to tell you, I was dating him at the time, so he was very nice.

01:22:39.020 - 01:22:46.940

He wanted to keep me around for a while. He liked to dance. [Laughs.] But then you did get orders to go back to Sweetwater.

01:22:46.980 - 01:23:00.040

That I did. They came through then shortly thereafter and I told you about going back. What was the purpose of sending you back to instrument school? Were you going to be an instructor eventually?

01:23:00.840 - 01:23:16.440

I don't know. I asked and they said that there was something in mind, but I have no idea what it was. I have often wondered. Did some of the other girls go also?

01:23:16.460 - 01:23:24.340

No, I was the only one that went. Right. How did you get from Bainbridge back to Texas? I went by train.

01:23:25.980 - 01:23:38.700

And when you got to Sweetwater, were there other WASPs also coming in for that particular training? There were WASPs there, yes. I am not sure that it was – I do not know.

01:23:38.920 - 01:23:56.720

I think it was something that was ongoing with some of them there. I do not know how many of us were there. There were certainly more than twenty, I would say, at that time. I do not think there was a large group, but there were enough of us so that it was a sizable

01:23:56.900 - 01:24:17.780

group. Kelly: And that was in addition to the trainees who were in training otherwise on the base? Hefner: I do not think there was training on the base at that time. I think I went back just prior to—I must have been back either the end of November

01:24:17.900 - 01:24:28.020

or the beginning of December, and I think classes were already through. I never thought about that until right now. I do not ever remember seeing any students there. Where did you live?

01:24:29.540 - 01:24:42.320

Back in those bays? I think we did, yes. Who were your instructors in that particular instrument school? Were they civilians or Army?

01:24:48.880 - 01:24:54.240

I'm not sure. And was that mostly under the hood? Yes. Okay.

01:24:54.640 - 01:25:11.580

When you finished that course, then what happened? I didn't finish it. They just kind of dissolved after that. I think we were there a couple of days perhaps and then we all went back to wherever.

01:25:12.120 - 01:25:19.240

Efkins And you went back to Bainbridge? How did you get back? Dyer I think I caught a flight from Big Springs, if I'm not mistaken.

01:25:22.910 - 01:25:34.280

Efkins When you got back to Bainbridge, then did you start doing your old job again? Dyer Yes. Efkins Did you meet anybody special at Bainbridge?

01:25:34.280 - 01:25:41.300

>> Yes, I did. But of course-- >> Nothing happened? >> No, I was engaged at the time.

01:25:41.360 - 01:25:55.180

And although I don't think I intended to meet him or he either, it was just that we were kind-- I think we just kind of sat together a lot of times and I grew quite fond of him.

01:25:55.500 - 01:26:04.660

He was a very nice person. >> Right. When did you get engaged? I was engaged prior to my going into the WASPs.

01:26:05.340 - 01:26:16.760

>> Was this someone from your hometown? >> Yes, someone that I worked with. >> What made you fall in love with that particular person? >> Beats me.

01:26:17.280 - 01:26:24.840

>> Okay. [ Inaudible ] >> Yes. >> Oh.

01:26:24.860 - 01:26:38.720

>> That was the same day. >> Okay. When you were disbanded, did Bainbridge do anything special for the WASP? No, they did not.

01:26:39.280 - 01:26:57.160

I heard some of the girls say they had some sort of a commemoration or something. No, they never did anything for us. When you were disbanded, what were your plans? Were your plans then to get married?

01:26:57.960 - 01:27:25.200

No, not actually. I think I was so disappointed that because we would have flown, if we had been paid wages or not, anybody, we would have all stayed on to do it for free. But it came as a big disappointment. I don't think I had any immediate plans. I just kind of wanted to go home.

01:27:26.460 - 01:27:44.640

Why do you feel that the Wampas were disbanded? I really don't believe that the men were coming home and we weren't needed. I can't possibly imagine that enough men could come home. We were serving a purpose.

01:27:48.440 - 01:27:58.680

When you left Bainbridge, where did you go? I went home to Hackensack, New Jersey. Then, did you get a job? What did you do?

01:27:58.900 - 01:28:08.960

That is when I worked for Bendix Aircraft. What was your job at Bendix? I was a proofreader. I was reading the technical manuals.

01:28:11.840 - 01:28:20.100

Then once you read them, what would happen? Then they went for print. Did you live at home while you were doing that? Yes, I did.

01:28:21.880 - 01:28:35.440

my mom and dad. Right. Were your grandparents still alive at that point? Not on the chase side, but I think my mother's father was still alive.

01:28:36.620 - 01:28:58.580

How did you, did you still have your car that you had before? How did you get to work? At that point I think I was, I'm not sure if my brother passed by and would drop me off or if I went with a friend.

01:28:59.980 - 01:29:10.720

At this point was your brother out of service? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think he was.

01:29:11.640 - 01:29:22.620

Yeah, I think he was at that point. What was the next thing of importance that happened to you? I got married. Okay, tell me about your wedding.

01:29:22.980 - 01:29:42.460

Well, it was a semi-simple affair. We had a--not a large wedding, but we had a very nice wedding with the long gown and bridesmaids and all of that. And I went to live up in--my husband was transferred up to Schenectady, New York,

01:29:42.580 - 01:29:59.220

And we lived there for a number of years, had a daughter up there, came back to live in Hackensack, and my second daughter was born there. And from there, where did I go? I cannot even remember.

01:29:59.570 - 01:30:08.700

What was your husband doing when you married? My husband worked for the engineering department in General Electric. Had you met his parents? Yes.

01:30:10.660 - 01:30:19.260

And did your mom and dad approve of your getting married? Yes. Okay. When your children were growing up, how were you involved with them?

01:30:21.300 - 01:30:28.820

With his parents? No, with your children. Oh, with my children. We were a close-knit family.

01:30:29.040 - 01:30:49.320

To this day we are. And we shared vacations together, of course, and active in school activities with them. And just a good, we all like to think we were good parents. And when your children were growing up, is that when you taught Sunday school?

01:30:49.520 - 01:31:03.340

Yes, when my children were growing up. And were they involved in activities at church? Yes, choir, which I used to do. I used to direct the choir, children's choir only, and taught Sunday school.

01:31:03.460 - 01:31:17.080

And they were in everything at church, you know, little plays and the fairs and everything that we had in the summertime, yeah. - Tell me of what importance you think it is for parents to be involved with their children.

01:31:17.880 - 01:31:27.740

- Extremely. I think, I think to this day, I see things that my children do

01:31:27.900 - 01:31:45.860

that I know I have, without realizing it, I have taught them to do. And some values that I have, have become their values too. So I think if you, well I don't know what it would be like

01:31:46.000 - 01:32:06.680

not to share part of your child's active life. Did you also work part of the time when they were growing up? Yes, I did. But it did not keep me from participating.

01:32:07.780 - 01:32:27.760

I had a Brownie troop and both of my girls did Girl Scout work, so we were really close. Were your children privileged to know their grandparents? Yes. They were just on my side of the family, not on my husband's, unfortunately.

01:32:29.400 - 01:32:47.420

And as such, were they able to go and spend the night or to vacation? Days. Mother and I used to argue about how long they could stay. She would say, "But you have them all the time, Shirley."

01:32:47.420 - 01:33:03.540

And I would say, "I know, but do you realize when they are down there, I am calling Barbara, calling when they are not here." And it was terrible. What else were you involved in when they were growing up?

01:33:04.720 - 01:33:19.600

Other than church? Uh-huh. Well, in their school activities. They were not very sport-minded, but they were musically into the musical groups, the

01:33:19.720 - 01:33:33.700

singing and the plays and all of that. And another thing we all did together was ski. Took them all winters, we would ski almost every weekend. We would go all the way up to Vermont or whatever.

01:33:33.940 - 01:33:51.240

I'm sorry. Would you, from law school out in California, at the end of this May, and I'm going out, I haven't missed a grandchild's graduation yet, either from high school or from college or anything, and she said, "Graham, please come out and spend a few days.

01:33:51.500 - 01:34:06.140

You and I will do..." You know, it's just, it's a wonderful feeling to have that with your grandchildren, in addition to your own children. year my children and I go on a vacation together, just the four of us.

01:34:06.580 - 01:34:15.440

Oh, how neat. We just spend a week together. What do you do for Christmases now? I don't do an awful lot.

01:34:17.600 - 01:34:37.200

It's hard because I have, they're widespread. So usually I will visit one at Christmas time for a day or two and then the next year I'll go to the other house or try to reverse with the Thanksgiving, you know, sort of work it out.

01:34:38.580 - 01:34:50.660

But Christmases to me are not, ever since my husband passed away, they're just not that important to me. It's just almost like another day. I love the feeling that people have at Christmas time,

01:34:50.920 - 01:35:09.420

That sense of being considerate of each other and that loving feeling. But then as soon as Christmas is over, it's back to square one. And I really, that bothers me a little bit. I tell you honestly how I feel about Christmas.

01:35:10.120 - 01:35:31.780

I think it's gotten to be so commercial. I think we've gotten away from what Christmas really is. And I would rather, and I've suggested this to my three girls, when your children are grown up, I think the four of us should get, put a pool of money together and either find

01:35:31.940 - 01:35:53.720

a needy family and see to it that they have the Christmas that they've never had before. That would make Christmas for me. You know, the children get much too much today. I don't know where I was a number of years ago when I heard some child said, "Well,

01:35:53.860 - 01:36:06.780

isn't there any more?" And I said, "My goodness, the floor was littered with gifts." You know, I'd rather -- if you're going to spend X many dollars, let's put it all together and help some family.

01:36:07.260 - 01:36:19.440

Wouldn't that be a better thing to do? Well, it's going to happen. Tell me about your daughters. Oh, they're the loves of my life, of which I have three.

01:36:20.980 - 01:36:48.360

Daughter number one is Barbara Ann, and she is about 5'7", and she has energy to spare. She works in a post office for eight or nine hours a day. She's been acting postmasters, run many different offices. She has three boys of her own.

01:36:48.660 - 01:37:00.740

She runs a B&B. She has a catering business. She has, she's going into business with another woman. They're making plans to do it now.

01:37:01.120 - 01:37:18.400

And she runs every day, seven and a half miles. That's Barbara. She never knew she could do this and so she's finding that life is absolutely wonderful. The more busy you are, the busier, the better the life is.

01:37:19.040 - 01:37:36.480

Then I have a daughter, my second daughter, who is Kathy and she's a dancer and that's what she teaches. She teaches dance. She lives in Durham, North Carolina with her husband who's a musician and they are just

01:37:36.480 - 01:37:49.560

on June 22nd of this year opening a recording studio, one of the biggest on the East Coast. What kind of dancing? She does ballet, toe. Jazz.

01:37:49.640 - 01:38:14.340

Jazz, oh yeah, jazz. She taught up at the University, no, Buffalo State and then came down to Raleigh dorm and taught at Peace College there and now she is with the public school system in what they call a master class or a master school or something like that, whereby they work with

01:38:14.480 - 01:38:28.640

the Duke University, the professors there, and they share back and forth. The Duke University professors come into their school rooms. They teach these first graders math without the children even knowing they are learning math.

01:38:29.280 - 01:38:43.060

And she teaches first graders how to dance. hip dance. I don't mean the recital where you see these little girls get up and do, you know, I mean they do a production. It is, yeah, it's fascinating. And does she have children?

01:38:43.840 - 01:39:04.900

She has three grown children. One of which is, one is graduating from law school this May out in California. Is that a girl or a boy? And then she has two boys, one is an artist and is going to an art school out in California

01:39:05.200 - 01:39:22.980

also. And then my third daughter, she is a paralegal and likes to travel. She is of the three, she is the least ambitious. Kelly: Has she married?

01:39:23.140 - 01:39:38.560

She is divorced and she has three girls. Two of them are in college and one works in Atlanta. Are you ever able to have family reunions? Oh yes, we had it the Christmas before this.

01:39:38.620 - 01:39:53.960

They all came down here. I took a hotel unit, well actually it was a condo over on the beach, and those that I couldn't put up in this apartment, we sent over there on the beach and oh, what a time we had.

01:39:54.290 - 01:40:08.320

We thought we were living high on the hog. It was fun. They all came in. I had a regular shuttle service going to the airport, picking this one up at 829 and that

01:40:08.380 - 01:40:26.700

one at - but it was such fun. Oh, how great. Shirley, how do you spend your time now? The little time I have home, I try to do a little computer work and I am trying to write

01:40:26.840 - 01:40:37.120

the class news for my class. But other than that, I travel. Do you do any volunteer work? No, I don't.

01:40:39.020 - 01:41:00.460

I was in touch with a school here and I was going to go in and do some work with some of the younger children. But I am not dependable enough to be available when they need me, so I am not a good candidate for that job because I travel so much.

01:41:00.520 - 01:41:10.920

There is almost every month I go someplace. Do you go by yourself? No. I got back not too long ago from France.

01:41:11.060 - 01:41:28.920

I had taken one daughter to France and then took three of them on a cruise. I'm going to go to a villa in Italy in June, the end of June, for three weeks. All three daughters are coming over. Is that neat?

01:41:30.900 - 01:41:50.280

And yeah, just every month I try to do something. What have you, are there places in the United States that you would like to go to that you have not been to? Or wondered why you go overseas so much?

01:41:50.700 - 01:42:11.380

I've pretty much seen the United States many times. Oh, I love, last summer I was out west. So I do, in California, I do travel a lot in the country, but my children wanted to go to Italy. And a year before this I tried to, you know when it is involving three other

01:42:11.460 - 01:42:39.040

people besides yourself, it is very difficult to find a time when all three can go. And I am so flexible it doesn't matter. But I had made plans to go over to the lower section of Italy which I wanted to see, Calabria they call it, and it is rather cliff-like and we were going to rent a place there, but I had to give up on that.

01:42:39.200 - 01:42:51.120

So this year I said, "Well, I can't get them all together. I'm just going to pick a week to go." And I picked three weeks to go, and I said, "Okay, now here's the time we're going. If you can come, you let me know."

01:42:51.420 - 01:43:13.240

And by golly, all three of them are coming, so it worked out. As far as the WASP organization, how have you been involved? I haven't been involved as much as I would have liked to have been involved. When my husband was alive, I found it difficult because we did travel so much and I didn't

01:43:13.500 - 01:43:34.940

want the responsibilities of doing that. And since he has been gone, I have thought frequently of doing something. I know they find it difficult sometimes to get anyone to fill in a position. I would like to do that.

01:43:35.000 - 01:43:51.180

I gave my name the last time at the meeting, if you recall, at Tucson. I said yes, I would be available to take a lesser position that they could not fill. I don't know whether that's been recorded or not, but I think perhaps it had. I would like to.

01:43:51.540 - 01:44:06.400

I have the time and I have the money to pretty much do what I want to do. So yeah, I'd like to help in some way. That's great. I know, Shirley, in life there are good times and bad and happy times and certainly sad

01:44:06.480 - 01:44:25.500

times. What has gotten you through the sad times? Well, let's see. I think probably the normal answer would be my faith in God, and I think that certainly

01:44:25.620 - 01:44:47.940

has something to do with it, but I don't think that that has been entirely the way it's been with me. I think I have always felt an inner strength, to be perfectly honest with you. I have always felt that no matter what happens to me, I can always pull myself out of it.

01:44:50.520 - 01:45:14.180

And it has happened. And I do not suffer a lot of being defeated on anything or disappointment. I may be disappointed for a short period of time, but I always feel that it has happened for a reason.

01:45:14.960 - 01:45:25.320

And I have always come up pretty strong. And who do you think gives you that inner strength? You know who gives it to me. We all know.

01:45:26.340 - 01:45:41.640

It is not in my making. Of all the things that you have ever done, what is the one thing that you are most proud of? children and my grandchildren.

01:45:43.880 - 01:46:03.320

And other than your three children and grandchildren, what other thing are you proud of? I'm proud of my mother. In looking back at your life, who was the one person that was your most outstanding role model?

01:46:03.880 - 01:46:20.220

My mother. What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? I think she's a great woman. I felt she has done so much for us.

01:46:20.260 - 01:46:28.480

She has paved the way. Without her, this would never have happened. Never have happened. I would not say yes, I'm a WASP.

01:46:29.720 - 01:46:53.300

So I owe her a lot. And there is a lot of love that I feel for her. What do you think the legacy of the WASP will be? Well, all I can hope is that we would be an inspiration to other women, other young people.

01:46:55.320 - 01:47:10.880

And I think if they can see us in the role that we played, they certainly must realize that there is nothing that they can't accomplish. >> I realize this has been a long interview. >> It's been a wonderful interview.

01:47:11.490 - 01:47:25.260

>> Why did you feel that you wanted to do this interview? Why do you feel this is important? >> For those who come after us. Somebody has to know what we went through or whatnot.

01:47:25.460 - 01:47:36.880

I don't mean that we went through such a difficult time. But they have to understand us. you know, so few people know what we were about. And it's such a shame.

01:47:37.380 - 01:47:50.540

I've spoken in a couple of schools from time to time. The children just sit there, they're wide-eyed. And you're just telling them simple things about what we did. >> Just history.

01:47:50.600 - 01:48:10.360

>> Just history, absolutely. >> If you could say something to your grandchildren or your great-grandchildren or other children in the future who are going to be watching this tape that you're making and listening to you, what would you like, what message

01:48:10.480 - 01:48:23.020

would you like to leave those children that might encourage them, inspire or motivate them? What would you say to them? Well, I think I'd probably tell them what my mother taught me.

01:48:24.960 - 01:48:51.840

If I want to do something badly enough, I'll find a way to do it." She always encouraged us to look at our dreams and to make them happen, if at all possible. And I think I'd like to see, especially the little girls, I'd like to see them get out of being a definite role in society.

01:48:52.660 - 01:49:14.180

like to see them pursue whatever it is they want to do. I don't care what field it's in. And I think it's happening in our generation, or the generation behind us. These young women today that are flying are just unbelievable. And would that chance have been given to them if we hadn't flown? I don't think so.

01:49:17.420 - 01:49:29.960

Is there anything that I have left out? Any story that you would like to tell? Any part of your life that you would like to recount? I don't think so.

01:49:30.040 - 01:49:42.980

I think we've pretty much covered my life. Can I tell you that this has been a delightful experience? It has been for me. I thank you so much.

01:49:43.100 - 01:49:52.360

Well, it's been wonderful having you and your daughter here. Thank you for coming. Nancy, do you have anything that you'd like to ask? I just want to tell you that you glow from within.

01:49:52.800 - 01:49:56.680

I do. Yes, you do. Well, aren't you nice? I have it.

01:49:56.820 - 01:50:02.100

I have something inside me, you know. I know it. It shines. Thank you.

01:50:02.120 - 01:50:06.440

Aren't you nice? It does. And I saw a picture of your daughters in there. Yes.

01:50:06.440 - 01:50:16.900

They're all gorgeous. They're not. They've got something in here that's all heart. You know, the first time we did it, which was about nine years ago, I was in the hospital

01:50:16.920 - 01:50:42.100

ago and I said to them, "I would like the four of us to be together. You know when you get a certain age, sometimes you go here and you tend to grow apart?" And I could see that happening. And the first time we went away together, we went to Cancun and we had two rooms, one right next to the other, and honestly, we had such fun. My daughter said

01:50:42.100 - 01:51:00.920

to me, Barbara, the oldest one, said to me, "Mother, I have to tell you, I would rather go, don't tell this to my husband, but I would rather go away with you three ladies than to go away with him." She said, "We've been re-bonded." Oh, honey. You've got to bring all three of those daughters to the convention.

01:51:00.940 - 01:51:15.380

I'm trying. We'll get Nancy to talk to them. Bring them to Williamsburg. Oh, wow. That's almost doable. Ie, Barbie, my other daughter, had always said, you know, she'd been...