00:00:00.000 - 00:00:09.600

>> You can keep talking, which helps me. >> Oh, it helps you, okay. But it's really very simple. We did Roby Anderson yesterday.

00:00:09.820 - 00:00:19.600

Do you know Roby? >> I don't know Roby. I don't know a lot of -- and there is a wasp I would like to locate, and her name was Ann Armstrong McClellan.

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She is from California, the most beautiful one -- person. And I have not been able to track her down. >> Remind me when we finish. Do you have a Ross Rosser?

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Yes, and her name now is Proctor. Her husband was in the Baton March, and they never did hear from him, but they knew then that he was a...

00:00:41.660 - 00:00:49.840

They were just married a very short time. I'm Deanie Parrish. We're in the home of Rose Penny Ross. Penny!

00:00:50.340 - 00:01:07.180

In Moberly, Missouri. She was a WASP. She started out with class 44-5, and graduated with 43.6. Today is the 13th of July 2001.

00:01:08.120 - 00:01:27.500

Okay, Penny, if you will tell us who you are, when, and where you were born. I'm Rose Penn, P-E-N-N, Ross. My nickname is Penny. I was born in Fitchburg, Wisconsin, which is in Dane County. That's where all the records are kept.

00:01:28.340 - 00:01:35.640

And this was on the 12th of December in 1914. Okay. Tell us about your parents. Who were your parents?

00:01:36.500 - 00:02:08.780

My parents were Jenny, nickname. Her real name was Eugenia Penn, and my father was Fred Penn. They were peaceful, loving, carefree, ambitious, hardworking people. They passed on their peacefulness, I think, to me.

00:02:09.620 - 00:02:28.900

Do you know where your dad was born or your mother? My dad was born in either France or Italy. We did never ever know about his family or what his family name was. My mother, I'm not sure whether she was born in Italy and came over here when she was a

00:02:28.920 - 00:02:38.160

very, very young child or not. We did not think those things were important. I would change that all now. I would have found out that.

00:02:38.780 - 00:02:52.460

Right. Do you know what nationality, what his bloodline or hers? I'm sure my mother was Italian and I'm not sure what part of my father was Italian and not what part was French. But I have a lot of that in me.

00:02:52.600 - 00:03:25.560

Yeah. Do you know, did they meet and marry in the United States? Oh yes. My mother was a child. They met and married here in the United States, yes. Okay. What are your earliest remembrances of being a child? What do you remember first? The things that I remember about as being a child were the carefree, peaceful, blissful

00:03:25.670 - 00:03:44.100

I guess, childhood. I had a sister that was just sixteen months older than I and we were like maybe twins. And as I said, she was very small and quiet and timid and I was just the opposite. I grew up and became bolder.

00:03:44.300 - 00:03:54.500

More like her. Where did you live, Penny? Did you live in a city? I lived in a small town by the name of Fishburg, Wisconsin.

00:03:55.000 - 00:04:15.840

Did you live in town or did you live out on a farm? This little town probably had twelve homes in it, and ours was one of them. What did your father do? My father worked for the Illinois Central Railroad and actually I think maybe he had

00:04:15.920 - 00:04:45.120

worked for a couple other railroad lines, but he worked for them for probably fifty years. Do you know, was he an engineer, was he a brakeman? Well, he was in charge of a district from Fitchburg to Freeport, Illinois. It went to

00:04:45.200 - 00:04:58.040

Madison, Wisconsin. There was that piece of track and he was in charge of keeping that in shape. And he had a crew that worked with him. Was he at home every night? He was at home every night.

00:04:58.640 - 00:05:11.340

Good. Where did you begin school? I began school in the little country school, which was where the rest of the people in that little town went, and the name of it was Maple Corners.

00:05:11.880 - 00:05:24.820

It was an eight-year elementary school. Describe the school and the classrooms. Oh, the classroom. There was a -- it was all one big room.

00:05:25.000 - 00:05:49.300

was a big stove in the back. In the front there was a teacher's desk and there were some rows of students' desks. There were some benches around the back and around the side where I guess we sat to eat our lunch. And it was just a very ordinary place. Okay. Just a little wooden building?

00:05:49.420 - 00:06:03.340

Wooden building, yes. How did you get to school? Well, most of the time we walked to school, my sister and I, cold or warm or rainy. Were all eight grades in that one room?

00:06:03.480 - 00:06:28.920

All eight grades were in one room. And actually, when you were in first grade, you learned a lot about what the fourth graders and the fifth graders and the sixth graders were learning because you could hear them and you sat there and you listened to their lessons. Right. And what was the one thing that you enjoyed studying when you were very small?

00:06:30.020 - 00:06:53.860

I can't remember that there was one thing that I settled on, but I have always been someone to appreciate the opportunity to be learning something. Do you know about how many students were in that school? Probably under 20 and it probably varied from 15 to 20. Did you have a recess time?

00:06:54.400 - 00:07:21.200

Yes, we had recess time. We played ball and hide and go seek and different things. During the summer, when you were not in school, how did you spend your summer? Did you have vacations? During the summers, we were just there at home. My sister and I just played all day. Did you make lasting friendships from children in that school?

00:07:22.740 - 00:07:48.940

Some, yes, but I'm not in contact with any of them now. How would you spend your weekends? Gee, we spent our weekends just the same as we spent every other day. Although I remember as a small child, not a small child, but it was before I probably

00:07:49.060 - 00:08:12.300

was twelve or thirteen, every Saturday we rode the train from Fitchburg to Madison, approximately ten to fifteen miles, and my sister and I had a catechism lesson in Madison. And then we rode the train back home in the afternoon. The train ran right through the length of that little town.

00:08:13.200 - 00:08:30.800

Did you have a church in that little town? We did not have a church in that little town, so we had to go to Madison to our church. Do you remember any teacher that you had in those early years? Was there just one teacher in this school?

00:08:31.640 - 00:08:48.080

Yes, there was only one teacher in this school for all eight grades. I remember several of them. I'm not in contact with any of them now, but I do remember at least two of them. Penny, tell me about your grandparents.

00:08:50.400 - 00:09:14.360

I only knew my mother's father, and I did not know him well. He was one of those kind of people who pioneered across these United States. Actually he was in wagon trains, and my mother was too in wagon trains as they came across the country.

00:09:16.740 - 00:09:49.120

mother's family, they had eight children, only two of which attained adulthood because of the severity of the weather and the lack of medical treatment. And when my mother was nine years old, they were in a wagon train going across Oklahoma. I thought it was from west to east, but it could have been the other. And my mother's mother had twins, and she

00:09:49.220 - 00:10:18.140

died having those twins. And my mother was nine years old, and she was left to take care of the twins. What a traumatic thing. They lived to be six weeks old, and then they died. And you can imagine living in a wagon train with no medical or the proper food for newborn children.

00:10:19.140 - 00:10:43.100

They didn't have a chance. But then my mother and her brother lived to adulthood and I said, "They represent the survival of the fittest and they passed on that fitness to their eight children." came across in that wagon train where did they end up? They were still in a

00:10:43.300 - 00:11:05.620

state of moving. They were in Missouri, they were in Oklahoma, they were in Canada, they were in Montana, and Montana is actually where they finally settled after my mother was grown and married. In this small town where you lived growing up, was there a doctor?

00:11:06.480 - 00:11:20.620

No. There was no doctor in that town. Where did you go? Doctors. If we wanted a doctor, we had to go to Madison or to another small town by the name of Oregon, which is another place that we sometimes went to church, Oregon,

00:11:21.460 - 00:11:40.080

Wisconsin. Okay. When you -- do you remember in what would be junior high school, but you were still in this one room, do you remember any particular subject that you enjoyed? Or what were your ambitions when you were—

00:11:40.080 - 00:12:04.820

You know, I can't remember that I had any ambitions except that I was in this situation and I should be contented with it and put forth whatever effort was necessary. At that time in your life, what did you feel women, when they graduated from high school, young women?

00:12:05.420 - 00:12:20.460

Never gave it a thought. It never occurred to me that women were any different than men or that I had any particular thing I should accomplish when I got older. When you finished the eighth grade, what did you do?

00:12:20.640 - 00:12:37.620

Where did you go then to school? Then when I finished eighth grade, I went to high school in Madison. My parents were still living in Fitchburg at that time, and so I stayed in Madison. Well part of the time we rode back and forth, my sister and I, because we were in the same

00:12:37.760 - 00:12:55.860

grade. Someone worked in Madison and we rode back and forth with them to school, but then some of the time we lived in Madison with my older brother who worked in Madison. What was a Christmas like when you were growing up?

00:12:56.480 - 00:13:26.460

Christmas. Okay. Christmas was a time we put up a Christmas tree. We had presents. We didn't have a lot of them. Presents were not the object. Our whole family got together. It was a joyous time. Where did you get the Christmas tree? We, I think the, my brothers, older brothers and my dad went someplace and cut one down. Do

00:13:26.460 - 00:13:55.120

on that tree? Well, I remember we had candles on that tree. And as dangerous as I know they are now, we lit those things. But I'm sure my parents were very careful about taking care of it. Nothing happened. Tell me what a Christmas dinner would be like. Well, our Christmas dinner was potatoes and gravy and dressing and probably chicken, cranberries,

00:13:56.460 - 00:14:05.960

pie of some kind. Very good. My mother was a very good cook. Levy: Were there other relatives who would share Christmas with you?

00:14:05.960 - 00:14:28.000

Steele: I had four older brothers and three older sisters. Of course, we were all together. it was just our family because my mother's father and her brother lived far away in Montana at that time. And my dad's family were someplace over in Italy. We didn't even know who they

00:14:28.080 - 00:14:43.500

were. At Christmas time, would there be any kind of religious activities that you would attend? Well, we would go to church for Christmas. Maybe midnight mass. Very often it was midnight that math.

00:14:43.710 - 00:15:07.400

Okay. So you would go into a neighboring town? We would go into Madison for that. Okay. Now, in high school, how large was your high school? How many students in your class? The high school was, hmm, gee, I would say there were probably two hundred in each grade

00:15:07.500 - 00:15:24.560

in high school. Was that a big-- That's just my memory. It could have been 100, but I'm sure it was more than 100. It was a large school. Do you remember how that made you feel to go to a school with that many children?

00:15:26.200 - 00:15:47.440

You know, it was quite a change, but I can't remember that I felt any different about school or who was there than I felt when I was in this little 8th grade elementary school in the country. Let's go through your siblings, starting with the oldest child, and tell me about each of those siblings.

00:15:49.020 - 00:16:23.900

My oldest brother was Harry, and he was actually born in the 1800s. He enlisted for the World War I, but World War I was just about finished or over, and he came home and they had not let him enter. I remember that about him. He always had a good job after that. My next brother was -- next sibling was Clifford. Clifford was an electrician.

00:16:24.700 - 00:17:01.900

Now, I don't think Herod graduated from high school, but Clifford did. And he was a good one. They were all good ones. And my next sibling was Francis. He worked for the American Express. Next to him was my sister Mabel. Actually, her name was Florence, but she was always called Mabel. That was her middle name. She had been an elementary school teacher.

00:17:05.640 - 00:17:35.320

And my next sister was Margaret. Margaret had gone to business college, and the job that she had that I remember was that she was something for a dentist in Madison. And and I was Catherine, and we had gone all the way through, started school together, and all the way through the university, we had always gone together. She was very interested

00:17:35.520 - 00:18:05.260

in science and became a medical, some kind of a biologist. And by the time, at that time, I was graduating too from university, and I had gone into the School of Business, and And I came out with a Bachelor of Arts degree in business, and I had a minor -- I had a major in mathematics and a major in French.

00:18:06.500 - 00:18:20.200

And when I later became teaching, I had lifetime certificates in all of those subjects. They don't offer lifetime certificates now. So that gives you all my siblings. Right.

00:18:22.980 - 00:18:46.240

At any one time, were all those children living at home at the same time? I do not think so. Since they were all at least ten to twenty years older than I was, they were out to high school and they were some of them living there, but it was not apparent to me that they were

00:18:46.320 - 00:18:55.400

there. mostly my sister and I who were together. They may have been there. Did you share a room? I shared a room with my sister.

00:18:57.420 - 00:19:19.520

In high school, what did you become interested in in high school? I was just interested in education in particular. Were you ever into any kind of sports or music or drama? I have a letter in basketball, as clumsy as I was, I have a letter in basketball.

00:19:19.900 - 00:19:36.780

I was a member of the National Honor Society. I won a particular honor medal when I was a senior in high school that was given to only one person. I loved school.

00:19:37.940 - 00:19:58.820

I studied Latin, and that's the most wonderful language to help you with your English language. It's not offered to very many places, but then when I got to the university and I was studying French and some Spanish, my Latin was so helpful. I think it's a wonderful educational tool.

00:19:59.560 - 00:20:16.360

When you were playing basketball, were you on a team? Well I was on, yes, I was on a team. However, the basketball teams were not playing other schools at that time, but we played within our own school.

00:20:19.000 - 00:20:37.560

I don't know where my letter is now, but I'd like to find it if I could. [Laughter] When you were growing up, and even through high school, who were your role models? Actually, I can't remember that I thought of anybody as a role model.

00:20:39.300 - 00:21:03.000

When you were in high school, what were your social activities like? Just the ordinary things. Probably attending sports events. And, oh, when I was in high school, I was the business manager of the school newspaper.

00:21:04.480 - 00:21:20.020

I had forgotten all about that. I was interested in doing extracurricular things. I'm sure I did some other things, but I've forgotten them. Can you tell me about your high school prom?

00:21:21.780 - 00:21:37.380

That was never anything important to me, and I cannot ever remember attending a high school prom. When you were in high school, were your mom and dad involved in anything that you were doing?

00:21:37.750 - 00:21:59.580

I do not remember that they were, but they always supported us in going to school. Describe your high school graduation. There were a lot of us, I remember, and I got that honor that only one person got. Did you receive that the night, was it a night of graduation?

00:21:59.840 - 00:22:18.260

It was a special ceremony. I had forgotten whether it was the night of graduation or not. And it was in a monetary, they gave you a pin and a monetary amount, which probably helped me to pay my first semester's tuition at the University of Wisconsin.

00:22:18.380 - 00:22:45.920

And I always look back at that and when I know that the tuition at these big universities is in the thousands of dollars, and my tuition was $25 a semester. And I'm sure that that award, that honor that I received, paid for probably one or two semesters. Did you have caps and gowns for graduation?

00:22:47.900 - 00:23:01.940

I feel like we did, but I cannot remember for sure. Kelly: At the time you graduated, what were your plans? Steele: Go on to school. It never occurred to me that I would not go right from high school to the university.

00:23:02.620 - 00:23:25.180

Kelly: Do you recall what you did during that summer? Did you ever work during summer school? Steele: I do not think I worked that summer, but when I was in the university there was a federal program. I forgot what the initials were. And I had a very short period that I

00:23:25.200 - 00:23:46.140

worked on that program. I wish I could remember the initials of that program. It was for university students. When you started the university, where did you live? I lived in Madison. It was very nice. I went to school right in the city where I lived.

00:23:46.440 - 00:24:00.840

Okay. Were you in a rooming house or in a dorm? I lived at home all four years. Okay. By that time, your family had moved? By that time, actually, when I was between my sophomore and junior year in high school,

00:24:00.960 - 00:24:12.020

my family moved to Madison. Okay. Was your dad still working for the railroad? He was still working for the railroad, yes. Okay. So during the time you went to school, you lived at home and commuted.

00:24:12.400 - 00:24:30.720

How did you get back and forth? Did you have a car? No, we didn't have a car. When I was going back and forth, if I went daily, I rode with somebody else who was our neighbor probably. And then I stayed part of the time with my brother who was married and lived there in Madison.

00:24:31.860 - 00:24:50.200

When you were in high school and in college and your older siblings had left home, did you have family get-togethers with all the children and describe them? Definitely. When someone would have a birthday, there would be a birthday get-together for the family.

00:24:50.720 - 00:25:13.320

When there was a holiday, the family would be together, and my mother fixed them a wonderful meal. Did your girls chip in and help a little bit? I had such a talented mother and one that could do everything and anything, and she

00:25:13.420 - 00:25:33.360

did. And she didn't require us to do any of that type of thing. And for some reason, we evidently didn't. And to this day I say I never was a very good cook or housekeeper because I didn't grow

00:25:33.460 - 00:25:46.720

up doing it. I guess we were expected to go to school and that was our purpose in being there. Do you remember what kind of stove your mother had? The first stove that you remember?

00:25:47.080 - 00:26:05.260

The first stove I remember was a cook stove in the kitchen. And it was one we put wood in it, and it had a reservoir for water at the one end of it. And that's what she cooked on. Okay, now we'll move back to college.

00:26:05.720 - 00:26:21.980

When you started college, what was your ambition at that point? When I started college, I just thought, "I'm taking general courses," which I did. And as you see, I came out with a Bachelor of Arts degree with several majors. Okay.

00:26:22.900 - 00:26:42.560

During college, what were your social activities? Well, I belonged to this professional collegiate business sorority, which is called Phi Chi Theta. And that was basically probably most of my social life.

00:26:43.280 - 00:27:12.480

I had friends, but I probably wasn't involved as much in the social activities as some students were because I had my home right there. I didn't live in a dormitory with the other students. My home was probably more my social life than the university and the other students. your graduation from college then?

00:27:15.500 - 00:27:36.280

Actually, I did not walk through the graduation. I have not been one for very much show, and I did not walk through graduation. And I graduated, instead of with the May class, I graduated with the August class of 1936. So when you graduated, then what did you do?

00:27:36.680 - 00:28:04.820

I thought, "I'm getting a job." I had several interviews, and by December 1936, I had obtained this job at the La Crosse State Teachers College as their financial secretary. It was a good opportunity for me to use my training in accounting. It was a very good job for a twenty-one-year-old graduate.

00:28:06.280 - 00:28:22.560

Kelly: And how long did you stay in that particular training? Reid: I stayed there until I received a letter from Jacqueline Cochran for an interview. And she told me that she wanted me to be in the WASP program. They didn't call it WASP, it was the Women's Flight Training Program.

00:28:24.640 - 00:28:44.480

And probably finished out a year. And that was until 19-- probably early '43 or late '42. Let me go back and ask you what you recall about the first airplane you ever saw. First airplane I ever saw.

00:28:45.440 - 00:29:08.580

Oh gosh, I can't remember that, but I have to tell you about the first airplane that I knew that I was going to take a lesson in. I went, just one afternoon, I thought, "I think I'll learn how to fly." Nothing had urged me that I knew of, but I just had this idea, and I went out to the

00:29:08.760 - 00:29:23.600

airport. I thought, "I better get close to one or see what it feels like to get up in one." So I went out there, and my knees shook so bad I could hardly walk to the airplane because they were going to take me up for a flight.

00:29:24.700 - 00:29:42.620

That is the closest I'd ever been to an airplane, by far. My knees shook so bad, but I got in the airplane and we took off. Once we took off, it was all gone. Once we landed, it was all gone.

00:29:42.720 - 00:29:56.600

It was such a smooth type of thing. I just thought, "This is great." I went right on and got my private pilot's license. What did your mother and dad think about that?

00:29:57.320 - 00:30:11.260

Actually, I wasn't living at home, and I don't think that they really concerned themselves very much with it. But they thought if Rose—they called me Rose—if Rose wants to do it, we think she should go ahead and do it.

00:30:11.480 - 00:30:30.860

Did you know any other women or girls that were flying? No, I did not know any other women. I did not even know any young men that were taking flying lessons. During the time that you started flying, did there come a time that you would take some

00:30:31.160 - 00:30:53.980

ground school courses? Yes, I took ground school courses. I took weather and engines and flight FFA requirements, aerodynamics. There were a regular group of subjects that you had to take in order to—that, I guess,

00:30:54.060 - 00:31:03.940

was in that civilian pilot training program. It was a night school program. Kelly: Okay, and that was at the college where you were working? Steele: That was at the college, where they had the lessons.

00:31:04.110 - 00:31:18.440

Kelly: Describe for me your first solo. Steele: Do you know I cannot remember my first solo? It just was fitting into the picture, and I did it. Do you remember what your instructor was like?

00:31:18.950 - 00:31:47.700

Steele: Oh, just a very nice young man, patient, kind, thoughtful, good teacher. Kelly: So you just kept flying. Where were you and what do you remember about Pearl Harbor? I just remember the newspaper and the radio broadcasts about Pearl Harbor, and that of

00:31:47.700 - 00:32:05.200

course was '41. So you see that was just about the time that I was about to go or had already started with my training. How did Pearl Harbor affect your family?

00:32:06.620 - 00:32:26.660

I cannot remember that it had any effect whatsoever. None of my brothers, however my youngest brother was a Marine that was old. Did he go into the Marines before you went into the WASP? Gosh, I cannot remember.

00:32:27.360 - 00:32:57.180

How do you think Pearl Harbor and World War II affected America, the people of America? Well, it put everyone in the mode of preparing to engage in the war. And it started industry after industry and put people into jobs that they could never have dreamed of having before.

00:32:58.000 - 00:33:19.640

And this involved women in some of those jobs, too. became very much involved in the war effort, manufacturing and so forth of airplanes and other war items. Kelly: So they became involved in careers that had never been opened?

00:33:19.640 - 00:33:32.400

Reifelt: Right. They were probably housewives. Some of them might have been secretaries, but most of them were just housewives or young people with simple little jobs.

00:33:34.120 - 00:33:55.160

When did you first hear about a training program to train women to fly? Well, I guess it was when I got that letter from Jacqueline Cochran. Otherwise, I was not aware of this training program for women. But when I got this letter from her, she explained it and asked me to come for an interview.

00:33:56.340 - 00:34:04.240

She asked me to come up to Minneapolis-St. Paul from La Crosse, which is not too far away. I went. How did you get there?

00:34:05.360 - 00:34:09.960

By train. Okay. I took the train there. Describe what happened when you got there.

00:34:11.820 - 00:34:24.060

I cannot remember the particulars of even getting off of the train or getting to where it was. She was. It surely had to be in—it might have been in a military installation because I had to

00:34:23.940 - 00:34:40.200

take the test, the physical test that they give the cadets, while I was right up there. Who interviewed you? Jacqueline Cochran. And what was that interview like?

00:34:40.920 - 00:35:01.540

Well, I thought that she was a great person, and I thought she had an interest in me, and She had an interest in women learning to fly. I was impressed with her, as I still am. I think she did so much for women aviation.

00:35:02.540 - 00:35:24.180

And what was your understanding of why she needed those women to be trained to fly? It was my understanding that she thought that the women could do a job that men had been doing and that that would free up the men to go places where they could engage in maybe dangerous and wartime flying.

00:35:25.840 - 00:35:42.800

Can you recall your physical? Yes, I can recall parts of my physical. I thought it was very physical and hard, but I evidently passed with flying colors. I was a healthy person.

00:35:44.360 - 00:36:06.760

What did your mom and dad think about your leaving to go into training? There again, they thought if that is something that Rose wants, we want her to do it. Do you recall how long it was after you were interviewed, before you were assigned? It was not very long, I do not recall.

00:36:07.900 - 00:36:19.020

How did you get from Missouri out to Sweetwater, Texas? I think it was by train. Did you know any other girls who were going? No, I did not.

00:36:20.340 - 00:36:41.140

Describe what happened when you got to Sweetwater. I do not remember getting there. I do remember that I was assigned a place to live and told about all what I had to do. I remember that they must have done that, but I do not remember it taking place.

00:36:44.080 - 00:37:18.420

Recall something about each of your baymates. How were those baymates assigned? That I do not know, but I believe one of my baymates was Margaret Sipes, who was one of the girls that was killed during training on a flight, a night flight. There was a -- it was an AT-6, I think. I mean, it was a twin-engine Cessna that they were on a cross-country night trip, and they crashed. And I thought Margaret was in that

00:37:18.480 - 00:37:39.980

group. And I remember Joel Pitts. I can remember her name. Those are the only two names I remember. And why, I don't know. Do you remember how you felt when you came up to Avenger Field and saw the airplanes? No, I have no recollection.

00:37:41.340 - 00:38:05.320

When you got to Avenger and started training, describe what you wore. Well, I know that we wore those zoot suits. What's a zoot suit? It's kind of coveralls of an olive drab color that didn't fit, but that you could

00:38:05.740 - 00:38:16.440

cinch around your waistline. That's about what I remember about them. How long did your training last? I think about six months.

00:38:17.140 - 00:38:38.940

I remember, I have to tell you this, that during primary training, like when I had flown to get my private license, very seldom. Well, that instructor was in a front seat, but when I got out there and I had that instructor in the front seat now and he was in the back,

00:38:39.340 - 00:39:00.320

when I would come back down after a lesson, I would be just deathly airsick. And I would have to stretch out on those benches that we had there in the hangar I lay there for, I do not know, maybe a half an hour or an hour until I got over that terrible air sickness.

00:39:01.720 - 00:39:19.460

But once I got to the point where I would be doing the piloting myself, I did not have that happen. Why did you not get discouraged before you soloed, when you were getting sick? Because I guess it is not in my nature to be discouraged about anything.

00:39:21.780 - 00:39:35.600

If it can be done, we'll do it. Kelly: Can you recall your first solo at Avenger Field? Reifel: You know I can't. It was all just part of that plan.

00:39:36.700 - 00:39:50.540

I can't remember it. Kelly: Do you know what airplane you flew in primary training? Reifel: I don't know whether it was—there's a 17s and 19s, PT-17s and PT-19s. I'm not sure.

00:39:51.680 - 00:40:02.200

It was larger, though, than you had ever flown. Yeah, it was bigger than the Piper Cub that we had probably when I got my private pilot's license. Can you tell me about ground school?

00:40:02.940 - 00:40:16.920

Ground school, I can remember going, but I can't remember anything about it. It evidently was not any challenge to me. Morse code? Morse code, there's something I had to struggle with.

00:40:18.420 - 00:40:28.160

That was something else. And what did you use the Morse code for? Gosh. Well, to know the radio signals.

00:40:30.300 - 00:40:37.300

To know the radio signals. She needs to change tape. I need to change the tape. Great.

00:40:37.420 - 00:40:41.860

Okay. You're doing great. You're doing great. We're wearing out all the tapes.

00:40:43.220 - 00:40:47.540

That's okay. That's what we brought them for. That's right. We have enough.

00:40:47.540 - 00:40:56.540

You're not quitting. Deathly sick. Right. As I said, it's not in my nature to be discouraged.

00:40:57.960 - 00:41:10.380

But most people probably would have been. I would just be green. Wow. They were in primary training. Who were your instructors?

00:41:10.600 - 00:41:31.020

I do not know the name of a single instructor that I had. I don't know the name of the instructor that was flying that plane when we crashed. Okay. Describe that crash. Where were you in training? It was my last two weeks of training, and we were in the twin engine,

00:41:33.020 - 00:41:52.660

and we were practicing forced landings. So he had pulled the throttle for two of them, and I had picked the field and showed him how I'd get in there. And he said, "Now let me show you how to do this." And so we went back up and he's coming down and all of a sudden I'm looking out and

00:41:52.720 - 00:42:05.800

it's the top of the tree top, the top of some trees. And I knew he had it. And we spun it, from there we spun into the ground. It was into some farmer's field near Abilene.

00:42:07.520 - 00:42:23.900

What happened after you spun in? Well I jumped out of that airplane. I thought, "This thing could catch on fire." I had cuts here and here and here. He was slumped over the wheel. I grabbed him by the shoulders and said, "Let's get out of this

00:42:24.660 - 00:42:48.180

thing." Finally, then he emerged out of there. I was already out because I could see that thing maybe catching on fire. When he got out of it, first thing we knew, "Oh, here comes this farmer." We had gone down in his field. I guess he called the base and they to me, "Now you're going to have a terrible headache, and we want you to stay here in

00:42:48.180 - 00:43:11.160

this little base hospital." So I said, "Okay." Never did get this headache. I didn't ever really go to bed, but in about two weeks they let me then continue my training so that I could graduate with the next class, because I was about finished. Did you have to go before the board?

00:43:12.020 - 00:43:20.660

I just can't remember that I went before any board. How much damage did it do to the aircraft? Well, I think it wrecked it. I think that was the end of that one.

00:43:21.300 - 00:43:28.900

Do you know if your instructor was disciplined for that? No, I don't. And I don't—I wish I knew his name. I don't even know who he was.

00:43:29.540 - 00:43:44.340

You see, I was not thinking about those exterior things. I was thinking that this is something I have to do, and I must do it the best way I can. And those other things were extraneous. I was not paying any attention to them.

00:43:44.800 - 00:44:02.600

Did you go through an instrument training course? After I was assigned to Love Field at some point, I cannot remember what point, I was assigned to go to instrument school at the Rosecrans Field in St. Joe, Missouri. But at Sweetwater itself?

00:44:03.100 - 00:44:09.760

At Sweetwater, no. No. Did you have some cross-country flights? had cross-country flights and we had night flights.

00:44:10.190 - 00:44:37.980

Okay. What was the most frightened you ever were while you were in training? Was it that particular crash or were there other incidents? It probably was that crash, but it seemed like it did not really frighten me that much. they decided that I would go on and finish my last two weeks of training. I had to get

00:44:38.060 - 00:45:01.300

back in an airplane. And there I felt a little queasy about that. They said, "We'll just take you up. You sit here in the back." It was the twin engine. "You sit here in the back and we'll just take a little ride. So since you had this accident, this will be your first time up." So I might have felt a little apprehension at that point, but nothing

00:45:01.300 - 00:45:11.660

serious. Kelly: While you were in training, were you aware of what the girls were doing who had graduated? Steele: Yes, I think I knew what some of them were doing.

00:45:12.200 - 00:45:33.820

Kelly: During your training, did you have any time off? Steele: No, it was just continuous after we got there until we graduated. Kelly: And as far as weekends? The thing that I remember that we did on weekends was a time or two we were invited to some

00:45:33.900 - 00:45:54.520

homes as guests in the little town of Sweetwater. They felt it was nice to have us there and they were really good to us. Do you recall how the training for the girl pilots was different or similar to the training for the male pilots?

00:45:55.340 - 00:46:16.320

I really do not know whether it was different, but we were told that it was the same. And as a matter of fact, the first classes that came there had some of the same male instructors that had been instructing the male cadets. So it probably was, as far as we knew, the same.

00:46:17.110 - 00:46:30.520

It was supposed to be, I think. Do you recall any of your check rides? I do not. They do not stand out in my mind except knowing that I had to have check rides at intervals.

00:46:31.320 - 00:46:46.940

And as far as Army check rides? Just I don't remember anything specific about check rides except that we had to have them. Do you recall who was in charge of that program at the base? Was it military?

00:46:47.280 - 00:46:58.140

Was it civilians? Well, I think it was civilians at that time. But your commanding officer at that base was a military— I do not recall a commanding officer.

00:46:58.640 - 00:47:26.320

Okay. During the time you were in training and this one girl was killed, how did that affect you? I think I felt probably sorrowful at the time, but it was not like some other sorrows that I have gone through.

00:47:26.900 - 00:47:42.200

Kelly: Did some of the girls in your bay wash out? Steele: Dear, did some of them wash out? I remember girls washing out. I cannot remember whether any of them were from our bay or not.

00:47:44.280 - 00:47:57.180

Recall for me your graduation. Did you have anybody that came? No, I know none of my family came. And as a matter of fact, I cannot recall my graduation.

00:47:59.740 - 00:48:19.720

As far as a uniform or anything? At that time, the official uniforms, the blue uniforms, were not in use, and we wore khakis and white shirts. Kelly: Were you given a choice of assignments after you graduated?

00:48:19.720 - 00:48:33.780

Reifeldt: I do not think that I was. Kelly: Describe your feeling when you got your orders. Reifelt: That was just part of the whole story. Where did your orders direct you to go?

00:48:34.110 - 00:48:41.420

To go to Love Field. I was ordered to go to Love Field. Were there other of your classmates who went to Love Field? I think so.

00:48:44.800 - 00:48:56.000

How did you get from Sweetwater to Love Field? Have no idea. When you got to Love Field, do you know to whom you reported? I'm sure that I did.

00:48:56.710 - 00:49:07.720

I don't recall it. But I'm sure we had to go through a certain form. Do you recall where you lived at Love? Were you embarrassed?

00:49:07.950 - 00:49:24.260

I don't know what it was like living in Love Field. What was your main assignment at Love Field? We would receive orders and we would go to a factory and pick up an airplane and this order told you where to take it.

00:49:26.000 - 00:49:44.740

Do you remember any special ferrying trip that you made that stands out? I remember one trip. We were picking up these small experimental planes. They were to be radio-operated at the field where we were to take them, but we were piloting

00:49:44.800 - 00:50:05.620

them. They were called PQ-8s. They were painted a bright red and they were small. I was to land at Love Field at one point and my landing gear would not come down.

00:50:06.280 - 00:50:28.780

So I circled and I cannot remember whether I was able to radio or not, but at any rate they knew that I was having some trouble and that I was circling and that there was something wrong. So there were fire trucks and ambulances and so forth as I was coming in for my landing

00:50:29.140 - 00:50:41.340

and my wheels were up. But it was a very successful landing. It just tore up the propeller, but other than that, it did not do that much damage. It was a nice landing.

00:50:43.000 - 00:50:50.460

And I walked away. Did they find out why, what was wrong with the airplane? No, I don't think that they did. I never did know what was wrong.

00:50:52.140 - 00:51:06.660

Describe a typical ferry trip that you made. What you did, did you take your own parachute? Gosh, I'm sure we did. I'm sure we did take our own parachutes.

00:51:07.380 - 00:51:31.860

But I know that we would report to the factory, like there was one in Downey, California, and we would pick up—I think there were BTs there—and we would have orders telling us where to take them, and we would go across the country. On one of those trips—I remember this one very clearly—I circled Downey and circled,

00:51:32.380 - 00:51:48.580

I could not get a lot of altitude like I thought I should, but I finally gained enough altitude that I thought, "I'm going." My first stop was at Tucson, and I had to go through the mountains there from Downey over to Tucson.

00:51:49.080 - 00:52:03.640

When I got to Tucson, I told the crew on the ground that I know there's something wrong with this airplane and I want it to be checked. When they did check it, it was a cracked propeller. And I thought, "I'm fortunate to have gotten there."

00:52:03.640 - 00:52:19.700

They fixed it and I took it on wherever I was going with it. Okay. When you would get to your destination, then how would you return to Love Field? Our orders would tell us how we were to come back, and usually then we would go by a commercial

00:52:19.760 - 00:52:33.760

airline. How could you get on a commercial airline during wartime when it was so crowded? I do not know. There was always room for us. Did you not have a priority over civilians?

00:52:34.460 - 00:52:52.360

I do not know that we did. Then when you would get back to your air base to Love Field, then you would get orders? We would report in and we would get new orders. While you were at Love Field, what was your social life like?

00:52:52.700 - 00:53:04.340

I cannot remember any social life at all. At some point while you were at Love Field, you got orders to go to another air base to be stationed. Tell us about that.

00:53:08.070 - 00:53:26.320

Steele: I'm just not sure which air base I went to first, whether it was Marchfield or Las Vegas Army Air Base. But one or the other of them was where I was assigned. And how did your job change at that air base?

00:53:26.820 - 00:53:49.380

Well, actually, I didn't do too much at either one of those. But I do remember at Las Vegas that we towed a target for the gunners. And I can't remember doing any flying whatsoever from March Field. But I think at March Field, they were training young men to radar track or track radar.

00:53:50.540 - 00:54:12.000

But I cannot remember that I did any of that. At Las Vegas, do you recall what you were flying? I cannot remember whether it was B-25 or B-26. When did you hear about the possibility of the WASP being deactivated, and how loud did you feel?

00:54:12.380 - 00:54:37.200

Oh, I do not think that I had been paying that much attention to it, but it was kind of a surprise to me when the order came through that we were deactivated. But at that time, I was at Santa Ana Army Air Base, and I loved California. So I had a very good friend there, and I said, "Well, I will just stay here."

00:54:37.200 - 00:55:05.200

I loved California. During the time that you were stationed after you graduated, at some point you got new uniforms. Yes, and I can't remember getting those. But I did have them. And I had my--I still have my jacket. I have my cap or tam o' shant or whatever it is, but the moths got into it.

00:55:08.540 - 00:55:37.460

Do you recall any outstanding things that happened to you after you graduated from Sweetwater and were flying? Are there any outstanding incidents that happened you want to tell us about? Well, I told you about the wheels uplanding. I told you about the cracked propeller. Did Miss Cochran ever visit at any of your bases?

00:55:38.420 - 00:56:02.040

No. You know, she was very much absent at Sweetwater. But I felt that she was in the background someplace attending to some of the things that needed to be tended to. Let me go back and ask you about your graduation. Who gave you your wings or who pinned them on? I can't remember.

00:56:03.260 - 00:56:23.120

How were your wings different? Later on they changed the shape or something about the wings, right? Describe your wings. And I have two sets of wings. One of them says W6 on them, and the other set has just a diamond on them. A diamond-shaped silver.

00:56:24.800 - 00:56:39.100

Which ones do you wear? I don't... Or which ones do you prefer? I don't really have a preference. I think I like the one that said W6 on it.

00:56:39.600 - 00:56:54.460

Because those were the first ones we got. Do you know who paid for those wings? No, I don't. At your graduation, do you recall if there were other celebrities besides Ms. Cochran there?

00:56:54.840 - 00:57:22.280

I think General Hap Arnold was there. And what did he have to do with the WAF? Well, he was the person from the United States Air Force, the general that was the chief administrator or person for that Air Force, as far as I knew.

00:57:25.100 - 00:57:42.500

When you were disbanded and you were in California, did the air base have anything special for the WASP? I do not recall anything. What was your first job after you got out of the WASP?

00:57:43.760 - 00:58:01.000

My first job after I got out of the WASP was in downtown Los Angeles for a certified public accounting firm, Arthur Anderson. Everybody knows about Arthur Anderson. That was where I went to work.

00:58:01.480 - 00:58:16.400

Had a good job. Right down in the very middle of Los Angeles. And you and this friend were living in the same— My friend was married, and her husband and her child, her son, and I, they let me have

00:58:16.400 - 00:58:38.540

a bedroom at their house. Kelly: And then how did you spend your free time? Steele: Oh, I cannot remember anything special. Okay. And then what was the next thing you did after that job?

00:58:38.740 - 00:59:06.480

After that job, I got another job doing accounting for DeHario Company. That was a cosmetic firm. They made cosmetics. And that job was over in Hollywood. I'm going to back up a minute and ask you, when you were disbanded, did you go home? No, I did not go home. I just stayed there.

00:59:06.840 - 00:59:25.320

Did your mother and father ever see you dressed in your uniform? Yeah, I am sure they did. Okay. After your job with this next job, then what did you do? That was about the time that I had met Vernon.

00:59:26.460 - 00:59:50.820

Describe how you met Vernon. Vernon had a service station. He had been at the shipyards for the Navy and had run their Navy. They made I cannot tell you how many hundreds of Liberty ships they made. He was in charge of making them seaworthy and seeing that they were put together right.

00:59:53.060 - 01:00:15.280

Then when the war was over, that work was not that important anymore, and he had a service station. Well, while I was driving over to Hollywood for my job, I would have to stop at this station. I'm very unmechanical, and I'm very poor at taking care of such things as an automobile,

01:00:15.980 - 01:00:47.520

So I would stop there and he would just be such a helpful and cheerful person. And it wasn't long before we got to know each other much better. And then that was, you see, that must have been in about 1944, '45. What were the qualities that you saw in Vernon that made you fall in love with him?

01:00:48.580 - 01:01:03.760

He was nice to be with. He was intelligent. He was capable. He was thoughtful, kind.

01:01:06.300 - 01:01:25.900

I had not ever seen him be rude or unkind to anyone. He would help anyone. He was honest, upright. That about does it.

01:01:27.780 - 01:01:42.040

So you began to date Vernon. What would you do on dates? Where would you go? just riding around. I lived in South Pasadena. In the meantime, I had bought a house in South

01:01:42.300 - 01:02:15.320

Pasadena. And we would probably go to eat and drive around. We did not do a lot of social things. I remember we went to a Hollywood show, but I cannot remember which one it was. Kelly: And how long did you date Vernon before you got married? Steele: Well, Vernon's parents had bought a farm in Fayette, Missouri, and they wanted

01:02:15.420 - 01:02:30.840

Vernon to come and help them with that farm. So they continuously wrote him and said, "Come to do that." And he just decided that he thought he would do it. Kelly: Had Vernon ever lived on a farm?

01:02:30.980 - 01:03:01.820

Yes, he had grown up on a farm and as capable as he was, he could take care of whatever the farm needed to have taken care of. And so when he finally made the decision that he was coming, I said, "Well, if you go home to your folks, I'm going to go home to Madison and stay there. So in the meantime, we're conversing, writing back and forth. And so

01:03:01.900 - 01:03:22.880

he came up to Madison for Christmas 1948, well Christmas 1947. And then is when we decided to get married. He had been in Missouri for a year with his folks, and I had been in Madison with my family for that year, and then we got married. While you were in Madison for that year, did you work?

01:03:23.180 - 01:03:34.200

Yes, I did. I worked for the Mott's Paint and Varnish. And you decided to get married at Christmas time. Describe your wedding.

01:03:37.060 - 01:04:04.080

My brother and his wife were stand-ups for us. We were married at Edgewood, the chapel at Edgewood College in Madison. We had just a simple little family, more or less family, reception at my home afterwards. Do you remember the minister who married you?

01:04:04.120 - 01:04:24.800

I remember the priest that married us. What was your wedding attire? I think that I wore my wasp skirt and jacket. I was not one that was going to go out and buy a whole bunch of that kind of clothing.

01:04:26.080 - 01:04:33.980

So I just wore what I had. And then you had the reception at your home. At my home. And did your mother do the cooking?

01:04:34.000 - 01:04:45.520

My mother did it. Then where did you go on a honeymoon? We did not have a honeymoon. Then we came down to Missouri.

01:04:46.020 - 01:04:54.320

Had you previously met his family, his mother and dad? Yes, I had. I had just met them. They were very, very good people.

01:04:55.200 - 01:05:12.420

So you went to Missouri? I went to Missouri and we lived in the least little house you can think of. We were married the 5th of January, and on the 4th of November of that year, Bob was born.

01:05:13.020 - 01:05:21.480

And we called him Robert Kimmons. And what did Vernon do? What was his— Vernon was at that time, he was farming.

01:05:22.640 - 01:05:33.680

But you didn't live on the farm. Well actually, he farmed where we lived, and he farmed other places too. What did he farm? What kind of farm?

01:05:34.040 - 01:05:58.880

crop. Well, he grew corn and hay, and we had pigs and we had cows. And he did custom work for some other farmers. Was this a new kind of life for you? Oh, my goodness, yes. I had grown up in the village and city. I had not been—had anything

01:05:58.880 - 01:06:22.080

to do with anything about a farm. But while I was on the farm, I loved it, and I learned to do everything that needed to be done. I learned to milk cows, I learned to pick corn, I learned to bale hay, I learned to plow, I learned to cultivate, I learned to do all those things while at the same time I was having four children. It was wonderful, I

01:06:22.120 - 01:06:35.260

loved it. So did you eventually move out of that little teahouse? eventually moved out of that little house. And then where did your children start school?

01:06:38.100 - 01:06:58.060

When my children started school, we had lived to a little rural place. We bought eighty acres or a hundred and twenty, I cannot remember which it was. We bought that at address Higbee, Missouri. And was this, were you in town?

01:06:58.820 - 01:07:10.860

No, it was a farm. It was out in the country, but it had, he'd be for its rural address. Then— So those first children grew up on a farm?

01:07:10.920 - 01:07:31.460

Oh yes, they were all except, Richard was about ten when we moved off the farm. But where the kids went to school, they came—St. Pius School had a bus that went out in the country and picked up children. They came down and picked up our children.

01:07:32.120 - 01:07:46.220

So that's where they all started, at St. Pius. When you were living on the farm, did you have the modern conveniences? Did you have water and electricity? Well, you see, there was where Vernon was ingenious.

01:07:46.360 - 01:08:10.640

He redid that place so that we had water and we had electricity and we had central heat. It was nice. When your children were going to school, how were you involved in their activities at school? If they ever had an activity, you could bet that we were there and supporting them.

01:08:12.500 - 01:08:36.500

Were your children involved in athletics, so that you went to ball games? Steele: Well, yes, especially our youngest. But all of them were somewhat involved in athletics, even Barbara. Of course, we attended all of their sports events.

01:08:37.180 - 01:08:56.520

Richard, the youngest, is the one who was most involved. And Richard was in track, he was in baseball, he was in basketball, and he was in football. And then when he went to college, he kept up with his football most of all. He loved football best of all.

01:08:57.700 - 01:09:12.600

When you were—the children were growing up, how far were you living from your parents? So my parents, I was down here in Missouri when I was married first and my parents were back up in Madison, Wisconsin. Okay.

01:09:13.080 - 01:09:42.360

But the children, how often did they get to see, visit with their grandparents? Well, when David was a year old, I had this superintendent of a school come to me. he had known that I had a degree and that I was trained in business and math. And he came and it was a school about 15 miles away. He said, "We want you to come and teach for

01:09:42.920 - 01:10:06.280

us." And I said, "Well, I do not have any education credits. I might have two." He said, "That's all right. We'll get you certified and in the meantime you can pick up all those education credits at the University of Missouri and go to summer school, do correspondence." Which I did and finally went to the point where I did get my master's degree from

01:10:06.280 - 01:10:20.900

the University of Missouri in education. But my bachelor's had been at Wisconsin. Okay, and the math, these courses that you were teaching were for what level of education? I taught the secondary ninth through twelfth grades.

01:10:22.260 - 01:10:39.740

And at the same time I was doing that, I can't remember when the junior college here got in touch with me and they wanted me to teach at their night and summer programs, which I did for quite a few years. Kelly: During the summertime when the children were out of school and you were not teaching,

01:10:40.300 - 01:11:03.880

how did you spend your summers? Steele: Well, all my children were involved in summer sports, baseball especially. That was our activity, because we lived at the farm and all these sports were taking place up here in Moberly, which is about fifteen miles.

01:11:04.440 - 01:11:17.340

So it was a job with four of them in sports. It was a full-time job to keep them taxied. When your children were growing up, how did you spend the Christmas? Describe a Christmas.

01:11:18.900 - 01:11:37.840

Our Christmas was a celebration. We had a Christmas tree, we had presents, not a lot of presents. We were not one to just lavish things on our children. We would have what family could get to us.

01:11:38.480 - 01:11:58.320

Vernon's family and my family that could get to us were with us at Christmas. Were your children, during the summertime, ever able to go and spend time with their grandparents? As a matter of fact, when the kids were little, even before they went to school, and especially

01:11:58.440 - 01:12:21.520

when I was in summer school, they would go and spend the six weeks of summer school or eight weeks, whichever it was, they would go and spend that time up in Madison with my parents. When you were teaching school, of all the jobs teaching that you had, which one did

01:12:21.600 - 01:12:46.560

you enjoy the most? What subject? Gosh, I do not recall that I enjoyed one subject more than the other. But I was class sponsor for several classes, and I enjoyed that extracurricular type activity.

01:12:47.440 - 01:13:14.860

Kelly: When you were class sponsor, was it in things like the newspaper? What were you involved? Steele: I cannot remember that I did the newspaper work, but I know at the end of the year we always took the seniors on a class trip.

01:13:16.960 - 01:13:30.760

Do you recall any special one of them? Well, going to the Lake of the Ozarks was the main activity on those class trips. They loved that. Although, we did take one trip to Florida and one to New Orleans.

01:13:32.100 - 01:13:52.420

Went by bus. Were any of your children— No, my children were not at that point yet. When your children would graduate from high school and leave home to go to college, do

01:13:52.420 - 01:14:11.660

you recall how you felt? Steele: Well, I felt like it was just part of their growing up, and it was just the way things were and the way they should be. Kelly: Did your students ever know what you had done during World War II?

01:14:11.910 - 01:14:26.160

Steele: No, not really. I just did not ever talk to them about it. And as a matter of fact, I did not talk much to my own children about it. It is just the last few years that they have known about it.

01:14:28.460 - 01:14:59.040

How long did you live out on the farm? Fifteen, sixteen years. Were the children all gone by the time you moved into Mobile? Well, they were in high school, grade school, and Bob went into the service.

01:14:59.600 - 01:15:12.440

Bob went into the Vietnam War. He was the oldest. The rest of them weren't in service. Do you recall how you felt when he left to go into the service?

01:15:13.520 - 01:15:45.720

I really didn't realize the magnitude of the danger, but he was pretty much on his own. And he did very well. He was in Vietnam, two different tours. What was his job? He was a CB, and he tells about making a road, helping build roads.

01:15:46.280 - 01:16:00.360

One day he said they'd build up this bridge, and that next night they'd bomb it out, and they'd have to redo it. It was something. He was not far from some line.

01:16:01.060 - 01:16:14.700

I've forgotten what line that was. Between the two north and the south. Probably the 38th parallel. It had some special name. I've forgotten what it was. Or the road to Panmunjom.

01:16:18.500 - 01:16:42.960

Gosh, I should be able to think of it. It just doesn't come to me. But David would have been twenty-one just the month that they said, "You do not have to sign up for the service." When did you finally quit teaching?

01:16:44.340 - 01:17:13.620

I quit teaching in 1982 at the end of my thirtieth year. And since that time, what have your activities consisted of? Okay. I've always felt like I needed to be in some place where I could help other people. And so at that time, most of the churches in Moberly had a food pantry to help people

01:17:13.620 - 01:17:43.380

who needed food. And so I worked at my own church for about six months. And at that time, the Ministerial Alliance, all of the churches, got together and thought there should be one central place where people could get the help. And so they said, "We're going to have such an organization, and we're going to call it the Christos Center." C-H-R-I-S-T-O-S,

01:17:43.380 - 01:17:58.260

which is the Greek word for Christ. It's the only one that we know of that's in the world. And so they set it up, and it is still going today. That was 1983.

01:18:01.320 - 01:18:13.300

They asked me if I'd be the director. I said yes, so I have done that ever since. We're still going strong. And it's all, all the help is voluntary.

01:18:13.820 - 01:18:27.740

The money, the food, the workers. We're a not-for-profit organization. We help 70 families a month, approximately, and

01:18:28.040 - 01:18:43.300

it's a wonderful thing. As you look back over your life, Penny, what is the one thing that you're most proud of? That I've been able to help other people.

01:18:46.400 - 01:19:07.360

That makes me proud. And what is your opinion of the WASP program? What do you think the WASP program accomplished? In looking back, I think that what the WASP program did for women and what women could

01:19:07.360 - 01:19:44.020

do was a very important happening. I felt like it opened up avenues that women could and had never been involved in previously. It was a chance to use their abilities, which had been heretofore not used and to find out that they could do it with success. So of course I think it has blossomed into many many other avenues for women in the years since the program.

01:19:46.820 - 01:20:10.960

During our lifetimes we have good times and we have bad times. We have sad times and glad times. What has gotten you through the sad times? The other things that I was able to do. The keep on with what I think I'm responsible to do.

01:20:11.980 - 01:20:33.820

I'm responsible to do the best I can with myself and for others. So what is your philosophy? My philosophy is to live and let others live.

01:20:36.340 - 01:20:55.600

That's probably what I'm thinking of. And by living, when I say I must live, I must make the most use of myself that I can and let others live, make it so that others can make the most they can be of themselves.

01:21:05.060 - 01:21:17.200

There's not one thing that is more helpful to you than to have that 8 to 16 glasses of water every day. - Okay. - But he'll bring it back when he's teased.

01:21:17.200 - 01:21:27.980

- What makes you happy? - Oh gosh, what makes me happy now, probably being with my family, and when I'm doing things for the Christo Center,

01:21:28.070 - 01:21:37.800

I'm happy. When I'm sitting here wondering what I'm gonna do with my time, I'm not happy. I mustn't do that.

01:21:40.700 - 01:22:10.060

If you could speak to children in future generations, your great-great-great-grandchildren, and say something to them that might encourage them or give them hope, what would you like to say? What I would encourage them is to be good to other people, whether they're his neighbors

01:22:10.060 - 01:22:38.060

next door or whether they're neighbors miles and miles away of different faiths, of different beliefs, but to think that their lives are worth something and that we should all work toward making them being fulfilled in their lives. Not necessarily to be rich, but to be fulfilled in their lives to the best of their capabilities.

01:22:38.580 - 01:22:48.320

And let's not have people starving. Let's not have people at war. Let's not be at people trying to cheat other people out of things.

01:22:49.020 - 01:23:07.460

Let's love others. What is your favorite word? Probably love. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be?

01:23:08.280 - 01:23:53.860

Well, what I had said previously about what did I think that program had to offer is to open up the avenues for the use and the abilities, to use the abilities of women as full citizens. What do you feel your legacy will be? Oh, I probably, probably whatever I have done to contribute to other people's well-being.

01:23:56.620 - 01:24:32.340

Penny, is there anything that you would like to say to children, grandchildren, anything that I've left out that you would like to talk about? I think you've covered it pretty much and I'm not going to, there's nothing I can come up with other than what I've already said. Can I ask you, as somebody who's completely math challenged, you are the first math teacher I have ever met. Can you tell me, is there a gene that people have that makes them smarter at math than others?

01:24:33.780 - 01:25:23.080

I'm wondering about that. I'm just curious. I have to tell you this. When my children were in the grade school and they were taking math and they were just struggling with it, I felt like their math teachers did not have the proper way to show them how math is important and how it is, how it works. And so I've always said we need to have better math teachers. I do think that math teachers have a lot to do with how young people pick up with math.

01:25:23.600 - 01:25:36.660

Do you think anybody can learn math? I think that anybody can learn math, yes. I like that answer. Anybody. And it's a matter of

01:25:37.080 - 01:25:50.680

of sticking with it. Once it clicks in there with you, you're going to love it. It's like an ad for math, see? Can I ask you something about the people of Sweetwater? You mentioned that they invited you

01:25:51.080 - 01:26:02.620

to their homes. Do you remember any of those? I remember going, I don't remember any names. But did you have dinner? They invited us to dinner, yes, like on Sundays.

01:26:04.220 - 01:26:14.020

After church or? Well, whenever. Anyway, during their noon meal usually. Was it families with young men in them? No.

01:26:14.020 - 01:26:19.740

I mean, were they trying to set you up with their sons? No. Or were they just being wonderful people? They were just being nice to the women.

01:26:20.760 - 01:26:30.780

They were just being nice to that group that were out there learning to fly. I guess they thought you were nicer than I was. [laughs] I didn't get invited.

01:26:30.980 - 01:26:41.740

You didn't? Well, you see, it was a different time. You were kind of a... that was a year later, and you were old hat. [laughs] You were young hat.

01:26:42.400 - 01:27:04.760

Okay. Your favorite airplane. What is your favorite airplane? Oh, I don't know. I don't have any favorite airplane. Is there anything that you can tell me about what it's like to fly? It is a different feeling. It is a different feeling to be up there in the air.

01:27:07.400 - 01:27:36.920

It seems you're weightless and maybe you're worryless. It's a sensation of peacefulness. Now I don't know if I were up there in a very complicated cockpit if it would be that peaceful. But the planes we were flying, it was. Do you feel closer to God up there? I don't think so. I think you feel peaceful.

01:27:38.920 - 01:27:55.200

unworried. Do any of your children fly? Bob decided that he wanted to take lessons, and he took lessons, and he was about to get his license, and then for some reason he wasn't able to finish it, he was about to get his

01:27:55.280 - 01:28:03.540

license, but he didn't do it. Tell us about the granddaughter that paints. Oh, yeah. And the grandson that plays ball.

01:28:05.380 - 01:28:26.380

Tell us about your grandchildren. Okay. Especially, I'll tell you first of all about my granddaughter who is an artist. She has a master's degree from Central Missouri State at Warrensburg and she lives in Kansas

01:28:26.620 - 01:28:37.560

City now. And I understand that she's having an art show at a little tea shop in Kansas City this summer. She has done some beautiful paintings.

01:28:39.540 - 01:28:53.960

As an artist, she is struggling. It is not a very remunerative occupation. Where did she get that talent? I wonder where she got that talent.

01:28:54.360 - 01:29:23.480

I do know that her great-grandmother, yes, on her mother's side, was a very artistic type person. And so maybe she got it from them. Okay. And the other grandchildren? Oh, my one granddaughter was just married the ninth of June. She had a beautiful wedding.

01:29:23.580 - 01:29:52.940

She's a beautiful bride. She's a very good, wonderful girl. And in a couple weeks, she'll get her bachelor's degree from Columbia College in Columbia. I spoke earlier of Brian, who is studying computer science. I think he is at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. I have other grandsons.

01:29:54.640 - 01:30:24.920

One grandson works for a company called Chances, and another one works for somebody else who does just really labor type work, but very good type, construction really. Kelly: And the one that was going to play ball last night? And my son's son, he will be eight or nine years old the end of July. He plays soccer,

01:30:26.100 - 01:30:46.080

baseball, football, and basketball. And he is a whiz. At eight, nine years old, he is a whiz in all of those sports. He's an exceptional child. He has read all those books. that are all the rage now. - Harry Potter?

01:30:46.640 - 01:30:56.440

- Harry Potter. And you see he's just finishing his second grade and the fifth graders are reading Harry Potter. And he's read, I think he's on his third book.

01:30:57.390 - 01:31:03.720

- Is that a great-grandchild? - He received an award. - Great-grandchild. - He's my grandchild.

01:31:04.360 - 01:31:21.300

He's Richard's, my youngest son, this son. Are you able now to have family reunions? You know, I don't host a family reunion here because I'm not -- I'm a very poor cook. I just can't get it all together.

01:31:21.940 - 01:31:29.060

But we do have family reunions at my children's houses. Bob has it. Barbara has it. Richard has it.

01:31:29.420 - 01:31:41.600

Now David, David is divorced. And he's been divorced for ten years. And so naturally we don't get together at his house, but whenever we all get together, David's there.

01:31:43.020 - 01:31:51.240

He had a very sad situation. Right. So what happens at Christmas? What happens at Christmas?

01:31:53.640 - 01:32:08.320

Usually we have several happenings at Christmas. We may have one all over at Bob's house, and we may have one at Richard's house, and we may maybe have one at Barbara's house. We'll all get together and do what—we'll go to church, we'll have presents, we'll

01:32:08.720 - 01:32:20.820

have food, have good time. Kelly: And if your mother were just there, she'd cook for you. Hedges: That's the truth. Kelly: Penny, you've been great.

01:32:20.940 - 01:32:31.560

I hope this hasn't been hard for you. Hedges: No, it hasn't been hard for me, but I hope it comes out and sounds intelligible. Kelly: It will be. It will.

01:32:31.560 - 01:32:37.880

It's great. Thank you very much. Oh, you're so welcome. I'm so appreciative of what you are doing.

01:32:38.620 - 01:32:45.180

I think it's great. I want to thank you for doing it. You're sweet. Thank you.

01:32:46.320 - 01:32:49.980

Thank you. That's great. All right. You're done.

01:32:50.320 - 01:32:54.820

My seat. You're all done. Oh, no. Oh, I might have worn the bottom of that chair out.

01:32:55.060 - 01:32:57.400

Kind of numb, huh? Oh, gosh.