00:00:21.000 - 00:00:27.440

>> Uh-oh. >> We'll see. We might just wanna risk it. >> [LAUGH]

00:00:27.440 - 00:00:45.480

>> Say, well, okay. >> I don't know how long this battery lasts. >> Do you have a plug in? >> Yeah, can I just plug it in?

00:00:45.480 - 00:00:57.320

>> An outline here and I usually don't even use it, but now it's been, what, a year and a half since we interviewed anybody or about that. Because we've been so busy trying to get this museum going. >> Yeah.

00:00:57.320 - 00:01:08.720

>> So I'm kinda not as up on it as I used to be, but we'll see how we go through. Okay, you ready to roll? >> I'm rolling. >> Okay, I'll start out by saying that I'm Deanie Parrish, and

00:01:08.720 - 00:01:23.080

today we are interviewing Rita, and your last name? >> Wischmeier. >> Wischmeier. And she's a WASP, she was a class 44W3, and she lives now in Dallas.

00:01:23.080 - 00:01:41.760

Rita, I'll start off by asking you your full name, and could you please spell that last name for us? >> Let's see, I'm Rita Edna Murphy Wischmeier, W-I-S-C-H-M-E-Y-E-R. >> And Rita, where were you born?

00:01:41.760 - 00:01:52.720

>> Boston, Massachusetts. >> Okay, do you mind telling us when? >> October 2nd, 1921. >> Okay, Rita, what was your mother's name?

00:01:52.720 - 00:02:06.600

>> Catherine Williams Murphy. >> And do you know where she was born? >> In the Boston area. >> Okay, and your father, what was his name?

00:02:06.600 - 00:02:21.440

>> Edwin Patrick Murphy, and he was born in Cambridge, Mass. >> Do you know how they met? >> Yeah, they used to tell that. They just bumped into each other on a snowy day and

00:02:21.440 - 00:02:44.680

just got talking, I guess, and then eventually married. My mother went to Washington during the World War I, and he was a sailor. And I guess they continued their romance in Washington, DC. My mother went there and was a secretary or a stenographer, something.

00:02:44.680 - 00:02:55.120

>> Tell me about your grandmother, your maternal grandmother. Where did she live? >> I didn't know any grandparents at all. >> Had they died?

00:02:55.120 - 00:03:05.800

>> Yeah. So I never met a grandparent. >> And your parents then lived in Boston. What did your dad do?

00:03:05.800 - 00:03:24.880

>> Well, he was a truck driver for Necco Candy at first, and then he joined the police department. And he had only been through about fifth grade, I think. But he studied and studied and studied, and every night, that's how I pictured him.

00:03:24.880 - 00:03:40.600

He was always looking through the law books, and he eventually made captain of a police station. So for somebody that hadn't really had much education, he did pretty well. >> Do you have siblings?

00:03:40.600 - 00:03:45.600

>> Just one brother. >> Okay, was he older or? >> Younger. >> Younger, okay.

00:03:45.600 - 00:03:53.680

When you were born, what part of Boston did your family live in? >> South Boston. That's where all the Irish lived. >> Okay.

00:03:53.680 - 00:04:04.600

>> [LAUGH] >> Tell me about your house. What do you remember about your house? >> It was a three-story flat, but we lived on the first floor.

00:04:04.600 - 00:04:28.320

And I was ten when they moved to West Roxbury. And it was a house with a little land around it. >> What did your mother do besides raise you and your brother? Was she involved in any kind of outside activities?

00:04:28.320 - 00:04:41.440

>> During the war, she did go to some home where she changed the sheets. I guess it must have been where the soldiers would spend the night or the sailors. I know she did something like that.

00:04:41.440 - 00:04:57.720

>> As a small child, do you remember any of your playmates? >> Uh-huh, I do. >> Tell me about some of the games you played. >> Well, I remember we were just a block from the ocean, and

00:04:57.720 - 00:05:10.520

we'd go down at lunchtime and jump off the high wall down into the sand. That was a lot of fun. I played tag in the schoolyard.

00:05:10.520 - 00:05:31.440

And when I was much younger, like the first three grades, my father would stop and wanna talk to me. And at that time, I thought, don't, you keep going. [LAUGH] So he felt bad about that, and I felt bad too.

00:05:31.440 - 00:05:40.600

>> Where did you start first grade? Did you go to kindergarten, or did you start first grade? >> Yes, I did start kindergarten. >> Okay.

00:05:40.600 - 00:05:49.880

>> And it was just two or three houses away from the school, so there was no problem getting there. >> Was it a private kindergarten? >> No, public.

00:05:49.880 - 00:06:01.220

>> It was public? >> Yeah. >> Do you remember any of your schoolmates when you were in elementary school, did they become fast friends?

00:06:01.220 - 00:06:23.900

>> Let's see, I just remember one girl that was my best friend, and her parents owned a store at the end of our street, Ruthie Rosenthal, and then they moved, moved and sold their store. So we tried to keep in touch after that, but

00:06:23.900 - 00:06:37.980

we had really lost that much interest in each other. She was in a different circle of friends now than I was. >> And where did you start to first grade? >> In South Boston.

00:06:37.980 - 00:06:45.520

>> How did you get to school? How far? >> It was just two houses away. >> Even the first grade? >> Yeah.

00:06:46.500 - 00:06:58.220

Kindergarten first, second, and third. >> Do you remember a favorite teacher in elementary school? >> No. >> How did you spend your summers?

00:06:58.220 - 00:07:16.060

>> We just went down to that beach, which was just a block away every day. That was part of it. We drove once or twice to an animal farm, a Benson's Wild Animal Farm, where they trained animals.

00:07:16.060 - 00:07:31.860

It was in New Hampshire. Every summer we'd go there to watch them training the animals, to be in circuses. >> What kind of car did you have? >> I don't know.

00:07:31.860 - 00:07:40.860

It was a sedan. >> Right. >> That's all I know. >> Do you remember anything special that happened as you would travel?

00:07:40.860 - 00:07:53.260

Would you spend the night in motels? Did they have- >> Yeah. We must have spent them in a motel on the way to Chicago, for instance, to see my father's brother and his family.

00:07:53.260 - 00:08:03.220

And so I'm sure we must have, because that would be Chicago from Boston would be a long trip. >> Right. >> But I don't remember much about it other than that.

00:08:03.220 - 00:08:20.580

>> When you would go to Chicago, did that uncle have children? >> Yes, and they were about at the same ages as my brother and me. And they would come to Boston cuz they had a sister, also two sisters in the Boston area.

00:08:20.580 - 00:08:33.980

So- >> In Chicago, when you would go visit them, did they live in the city or- >> Yes. In fact, those two daughters and

00:08:33.980 - 00:08:53.820

the family were still living there up until about five or six years ago. In the same address, the parents had died and the brother had died, but the two girls were still living in that house. >> When you were growing up, what was a Christmas like in your home?

00:08:53.820 - 00:09:17.460

>> Well, Santa Claus came, we put up the Christmas tree and helped decorate it, and we opened our presents on Christmas morning. And then we'd have a Christmas dinner for just the four of us. Maybe my mother would have a friend that didn't have a family, so

00:09:17.460 - 00:09:35.620

she would be often a guest. >> During the Christmas season, were you involved in any Christmas pageants or were you involved in a church that might have had activities celebrating Christmas?

00:09:35.620 - 00:09:59.420

>> Well, the church had big day, Christmas Day is a big day in the church, so that's all I remember. >> When you were in elementary school, what were you interested in as far as school, what subject?

00:09:59.420 - 00:10:19.300

Do you recall? >> I don't recall anything in the first elementary grades, even in fourth, fifth, sixth, I don't remember much about that. I was always getting good grades, and then my mother thought I was so smart.

00:10:19.300 - 00:10:37.260

So she decided that I should go to this girl's Latin school. And it was in town, and I would have to ride a bus and two streetcars rides, and that first year, I think I failed every subject.

00:10:37.260 - 00:11:01.260

And so it was a particularly hard school. If you didn't make it, you had to go back to your local school. But anyway, I did summer work and was able to, this was started in seventh grade. So I did summer work for Latin and English and got into the eighth grade.

00:11:01.260 - 00:11:20.500

And then each year I did a little better and a little better. And by the time I was a senior there, I had gotten a scholarship to the University of Vermont, which I didn't take, but I got it. I mean, I was awarded it.

00:11:21.620 - 00:11:42.540

And had done very well, so I had learned a lot at this school. Latin for six years, and German for three. It was a, and if you flunked out, you had to go back to your local school, like I said. >> Mm-hm.

00:11:42.540 - 00:11:48.180

Who, was that a private school? >> Public, it was public. >> It was a public school? >> Mm-hm.

00:11:48.180 - 00:12:04.580

>> But you were- >> It was called the Girls Latin School. And the Boys Latin School had been established in around 1630, but only for boys, and so we were across the street, and of course the girls was started much later. >> Mm-hm.

00:12:04.580 - 00:12:18.620

>> And- >> How far was that from your home? How did you- >> Well, it took a good hour. But I would have leave some of my homework for the first street car. And then on the second street car, I might go over the Latin translation.

00:12:18.620 - 00:12:35.100

I had just, we did our homework. I had other friends from the same section of the city that rode on the same street cars. So we did a lot of homework on the two street cars. >> Why do you think they thought Latin was so important?

00:12:35.100 - 00:12:57.940

>> Well, it does give you a good basis for grammar and for the words, the vocabulary. >> And at that, when you started that school, what were your ambitions? What did you think- >> I don't think I had an ambition at all.

00:12:57.940 - 00:13:12.660

I was just surviving. >> Just wanted to study? >> Not really, but I wanted to stay there at this school, because it was kind of embarrassing to have to admit to your friends that you didn't make it.

00:13:12.660 - 00:13:33.380

It's still going, too, this school. >> Did your brother go to the same school? >> No, he went to a Catholic private school run by the brothers. And so that they kept the boys in disciplined activities.

00:13:33.380 - 00:13:53.620

>> When you were at this school in high school, did you have outside activities? >> Yes, I played basketball and field hockey. And deck tennis, indoors in the gym. We had a very good gymnastic program.

00:13:53.620 - 00:14:06.020

>> Did your school compete with other schools? >> No. >> How were your parents involved with the school? Did you have PTAs?

00:14:06.020 - 00:14:25.780

>> Well, not at all, really. No, I don't think they had any PTAs then. >> While you were in high school, did you ever have an outside job, for example? >> No, other than babysitting for like 50 cents a night.

00:14:25.780 - 00:14:41.700

>> Oh, that's insane. I did take piano lessons on the way home. Would get off and go into this convent where a nun was the teacher. And so I did take lessons for about ten years.

00:14:42.700 - 00:15:01.900

>> Hmm. Were you active in sports? >> Yes, like I would stay off many a night just playing basketball. >> When you were in high school, what was your social life like?

00:15:01.900 - 00:15:17.220

>> I don't think I had one. I mean, friends. I'd have girlfriends, but no boyfriends. Because I was in an all-girls school, and I never did meet a guy.

00:15:17.220 - 00:15:37.420

>> I wonder, did the boys' school and the girls' school ever get together for proms or anything? >> No, no. >> As you were in high school near graduation, did you have any social activities connected with graduation like a prom?

00:15:37.420 - 00:15:58.140

>> Well, yes, they had a prom. And I remember a picture of me with a long, sort of like a T for a T, and with a hat, big hat. >> Okay. With your clothing as you were growing up, did your mother make a lot of your clothes?

00:15:58.140 - 00:16:12.860

>> Yes, she did. Mm-hmm. >> Even in high school, then your summers, how would you spend your summers while you were in high school?

00:16:12.860 - 00:16:28.940

>> I don't think I ever had a job, so I think we'd just go see the Charles River, ran not too far away, and I would walk down. I had to keep a tan going. Every day I'd go down to the sun so I could be tan.

00:16:28.940 - 00:16:49.260

And I had friends that I'd go visit, that I could walk to, or I could ride a bike to. So we just did a lot of visiting back and forth. >> Did you make lasting friendships with any of the girls in high school? >> Yes, but of course, after college, then I moved away,

00:16:49.260 - 00:17:13.100

so, but I would keep them up with Christmas cards. If I went back to Boston, I would look up old friends. >> When you graduated, what was your standing in your class? >> I don't, we weren't, we weren't graded that way.

00:17:13.100 - 00:17:20.900

>> Okay. >> You either graduated or you didn't. >> Okay. >> Okay, when you graduated, then you went on and,

00:17:20.900 - 00:17:28.100

could you spell the name of that college? >> Emanuel. >> What was Emanuel? >> E-M-M-A-N-U-E-L, Emanuel College.

00:17:28.100 - 00:17:50.100

And it was just around the corner from where I had gone forth, I'd say, seven years, and now I'm still going the same two streetcars to get to this Emanuel College. It was, it was mostly, there were no dorms, so everybody was a commuter.

00:17:50.100 - 00:18:06.100

>> And once you got to college. >> Now this is an all girls college. Again, I didn't meet any boys. >> Okay, what did you start taking?

00:18:06.100 - 00:18:17.100

At that point, did you know what you wanted to do? >> Well, I did say social sciences was my major. >> Okay. And what was your goal?

00:18:17.100 - 00:18:30.100

Did you have a goal? >> I guess to be a social worker. So when I graduated from there, I did win a, it's not called a scholarship, but it was to Boston University.

00:18:30.100 - 00:18:49.100

But by that time, I was, oh, and I was a junior. That's when I first started the flying binge. And so I didn't take that, what do you call that, Betsy, when you get a-- >> CPT.

00:18:49.100 - 00:19:03.100

>> A fellowship, getting your master's fellowship. >> A fellowship, yeah, at Boston University. Well, I turned that down so that I could join the WASPs. >> Okay, let me back up and ask you,

00:19:03.100 - 00:19:12.100

do you recall the first airplane you ever saw? >> Oh, saw? No. >> Okay. How did you become interested in flying?

00:19:12.100 - 00:19:35.100

>> Well, I really wasn't interested in flying, but I saw a little tiny article in the paper saying that the government would sponsor 10 men and one woman in the college students, and it gave this college, was Northeastern.

00:19:35.100 - 00:19:50.100

Well, that was just a block away from Emanuel. So another friend and I were interested, and we walked up there to this Northeastern meeting. And we both got chosen.

00:19:50.100 - 00:20:07.100

So after a while, though, this other gal just dropped out, but I continued. It was a ground school for about three months. And I was trying to think last night, how many times a week did I go there? I don't really remember.

00:20:07.100 - 00:20:20.100

But did you go through that program? >> I paid for that. >> It's called Civilian Pilot Training Program, free. So we had a very good ground school for at least three months.

00:20:20.100 - 00:20:40.100

And then finally I was to go to Norwood, which is about, I'd say, 5 to 10 miles from my home. And at that point we only had one car, and I had never driven much. I felt a little nervous about it in Boston because there's so many hills.

00:20:40.100 - 00:20:54.100

And if you have to stop on a hill for the red light, well, then you have to take your foot off the brake, and you're hoping you're not going to roll back and hit the car that's waiting behind you.

00:20:54.100 - 00:21:12.100

It was very intimidating. But anyway, I was borrowing the family car to go out to this airport at Norwood, and I had a wonderful instructor. I give him all the credit because he took it seriously,

00:21:12.100 - 00:21:31.100

and I soloed after eight hours like you're supposed to, and then went on a solo trip down to the Cape Cod by myself and back. That was a little scary. But he was very particular.

00:21:31.100 - 00:21:48.100

When he said making a left turn, you had to make a 90-degree turn and turn out. He was very particular. And when you had to do a spin going down three times and turn out

00:21:48.100 - 00:22:06.100

and come back facing the same way that you started, he was just very, very particular about all that. And I think that's what got me through the program was when he said when you went along a field,

00:22:06.100 - 00:22:24.100

you had to make your adjustment for the wind so that you stayed the same distance from the edge of the field that you started from. What year was that, Rita? Let's see. I was a junior, so when I graduated, I went in '43,

00:22:24.100 - 00:22:48.100

so it would have been '41. So two years later is when I entered after graduation. Let me ask you, do you recall where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor? Yes, just like in my kitchen in my home.

00:22:48.100 - 00:23:09.100

The radio was on. How did that affect you? Well, not really. It didn't affect me because my brother was still home, and so I had nobody that I knew in Pearl Harbor.

00:23:09.100 - 00:23:30.100

Then when he was very eager to get into the service and his heart didn't pass the examination, his father had to pull strings to get him in because in those days if you were a big, tall guy on the streetcar,

00:23:30.100 - 00:23:48.100

people would look at you as though, "Why aren't you in the service?" That's how he felt. So he finally got accepted by the Army and was in Europe or France. When he did get shot, but he didn't die, he lived through it,

00:23:48.100 - 00:24:09.100

and we were happy about that, that he was able to come home. How do you think Pearl Harbor, the beginning of World War II, how did that change America? Well, I think it had great support.

00:24:09.100 - 00:24:35.100

Everybody was aroused, not like today's people. Not everybody wants us to be in Iraq, but they all were ready for their sons to go and support the U.S. Do you recall about rationing? Did that affect your family?

00:24:35.100 - 00:25:03.100

Slightly, I think, since I really didn't pay too much attention. My mother, they had tickets for butter and olio or meat. We didn't seem to suffer too much about that, though. When you first decided that you wanted to take these courses,

00:25:03.100 - 00:25:20.100

ground school courses, what did your mom and dad think about that? I don't recall that they ever said. They just were happy that I was happy doing whatever I wanted to do there. I don't know that they ever really spoke too much about it.

00:25:20.100 - 00:25:43.100

How far was it from your home to the airport? Oh, it would probably take me 30 minutes, and driving probably at 30, 35. So it might have been--it took a lot. It took time, and then I had to get back to go to classes at Emmanuel.

00:25:43.100 - 00:25:58.100

Did you finish the ground school courses before you started taking flying lessons? Yes. How did you find an instructor? Oh, he was just assigned to me. I never even got a choice.

00:25:58.100 - 00:26:19.100

What was the first airplane that you went up in? It was a Piper Cub. And on that first flight, is that when you decided that's what you wanted to do? Well, I was going to finish it no matter what.

00:26:19.100 - 00:26:34.100

Tell me about your solo flight. Well, he was standing down there, I noticed, I remember. Can I wipe my nose? It runs every now and then. It must be scary to be an instructor.

00:26:34.100 - 00:26:52.100

You have to send somebody up. All I did was take off and make a big circle and come around and land. I think it was three times. But he's just standing there, hoping and praying, I guess, that I'd make it.

00:26:52.100 - 00:27:12.100

Did you know any other girls who were flying? No. What gave you the courage to think you could do that? I don't know. I went out there, and he accepted me, and he started teaching me.

00:27:12.100 - 00:27:30.100

He was satisfied with what I was doing. And at that point, the WASP program was not available, right? No, right. I think you had to have 500 hours or something like that. How did you find out about the training program?

00:27:30.100 - 00:27:52.100

Well, I don't really remember how I found out. Maybe I read it in the paper. I don't know. But you were still in school? Yes, because I was doing this at my junior year.

00:27:52.100 - 00:28:12.100

So then the senior year, I don't know. I know I had to go get a physical with the Army, so I must have been in touch with somebody, and they got my name from that program, possibly.

00:28:12.100 - 00:28:38.100

I don't even remember how I kept in touch with the WASP program. But then finally I learned that it was 35 hours, and that's what I had. So I was able to apply and get accepted. Do you remember to whom--who did you write to? Do you recall?

00:28:38.100 - 00:28:50.100

No, I don't. Where did you go to get your physical? I don't know. But you remember getting it.

00:28:50.100 - 00:29:08.100

Yes, I remember that I had to pass one. And I know that, like, coming down to land or something, the man was shaking his head as though, "Hmm, I was doing it too soon," or something. But he passed me anyway.

00:29:08.100 - 00:29:23.100

On the one--on the flight that you had that you said was kind of scary, what made that scary? Well, I had never been away from the airport and its surroundings. You know, we have a little section we go to.

00:29:23.100 - 00:29:42.100

But this time I had to leave it and head down the coastline to Cape Cod. And so it was just a long distance to go. I know in order to enter the program you also had to be interviewed, did you not? Yes, yeah.

00:29:42.100 - 00:29:58.100

Do you recall where you went for that interview or who interviewed you? No, I don't. Okay. When you--when they accepted you and your mom and dad, you had to tell them,

00:29:58.100 - 00:30:11.100

what did they think about that? You know, I don't remember them--I'm sure they were happy for me, although neither one were. Your father wanted one foot on the floor?

00:30:11.100 - 00:30:19.100

What? Your father wanted one foot on the floor? He said he doesn't care how high he goes up as long as they can keep one foot on the floor.

00:30:19.100 - 00:30:37.100

So he was not a flyer. They had never even been in an airplane, I don't think, at that time, in '43. At the time you went into the training program, where was your brother? He was already in the Army by then.

00:30:37.100 - 00:30:52.100

And what did he think about his little sister or his big sister? He never told me. Well, by then he was gone from the house and I was leaving, so we didn't have too much communication at all.

00:30:52.100 - 00:31:10.100

How did you get from Boston to Sweetwater, Texas? I went by train, and we went--like the North Station, that was probably where I went. And there were two other gals who were also going to the WASPs.

00:31:10.100 - 00:31:30.100

And both of them--and there might have even been three, but I think it was just two--I had never been on a train overnight like we were. We went to Chicago and had to change and go down to Dallas. But those two girls had their 35 hours.

00:31:30.100 - 00:31:46.100

They used to go out to the Revere Airport on a Sunday afternoon. They were working girls. And I think I had the advantage of that one instructor who was determined that I would get those 35 hours in

00:31:46.100 - 00:32:04.100

and taught everything that I should have been taught. But those girls probably went to the airport and hung out, and then they'd get somebody to go up with them and fly. And I don't think they had the minute, detailed lessons like I did

00:32:04.100 - 00:32:23.100

because they both washed out, and I don't even know their names now. But you met them before you got on the train? Yes, we did because we were on the same train. So I don't remember if I knew them or met them beforehand or not.

00:32:23.100 - 00:32:32.100

Sorry, but it's all a big-- Had you ever been to Texas? Oh, no. What did you expect to find?

00:32:32.100 - 00:32:54.100

Well, even the sound of the Blue Bonnet Hotel sounded very different from the Red Sox or the Hilton or something. That was interesting. And then I knew we were going to take a--

00:32:54.100 - 00:33:09.100

Let's see, we landed in Dallas, and we must have had to take another train to Sweetwater and stayed at the Blue Bonnet Hotel overnight. Tell me what that experience was like.

00:33:09.100 - 00:33:26.100

Well, I remember-- I don't really remember anything about staying in the hotel, but the next day a cattle car took many of us. So there must have been others all meeting at that one time there at that hotel.

00:33:26.100 - 00:33:51.100

And we were taken out to Sweetwater in a cattle car from then on. That was always our way of getting to the town and back. When you got out to Avenger Field, what did you do? I suppose we had to register in with that woman--

00:33:51.100 - 00:33:59.100

I've forgotten her name now--Mrs.-- Deaton. Deaton, yeah. She probably assigned us by alphabetical order.

00:33:59.100 - 00:34:18.100

I was in the second flight with the name Murphy. And I think we had, what, was it six beds in each bay? And so we got assigned to where we would--and we'd unpacked. Was Miss Cochran there?

00:34:18.100 - 00:34:27.100

No. I never saw her. Right. Do you recall having to take the oath? No, I don't.

00:34:27.100 - 00:34:47.100

Tell me about the girls that your bay mates-- They were interesting, all quite different. But they were all friendly. And after a few weeks or maybe it was months--

00:34:47.100 - 00:35:11.100

no, it couldn't have been too many months-- we'd lose one or two, and then you would have to move somebody in to take the space and keep condensing the bays. And I enjoyed the meals there.

00:35:11.100 - 00:35:31.100

How was that airfield different than the airfields where the young men cadets were training? I never was on one of those fields. Except at land, but they all seemed pretty much the same.

00:35:31.100 - 00:35:56.100

But as far as all your training at one airfield rather than having to take primary at one place and basic at another. So we stayed there for the whole three. When you were assigned to your bay, were you given uniforms?

00:35:56.100 - 00:36:11.100

No, I don't think so. They didn't have any, as I recall. Were we wearing beige slacks and white shirts then? And then to fly, what did you wear to fly in?

00:36:11.100 - 00:36:21.100

Must have been that, because we didn't have anything else. Although we had those green things-- Zoot suits. The zoot suits.

00:36:21.100 - 00:36:46.100

I think we wore those all day, every day. Yeah, the slacks were only when somebody graduated and would parade. Of the five roommates that you had, where were they from? Well, California, I remember as one.

00:36:46.100 - 00:37:04.100

I can't even remember who else they were, who they were even now. But of those bay mates, those were not lasting friendships that you made. Did you make some lasting friendships with other girls in your class? Not at the field.

00:37:04.100 - 00:37:22.100

Well, Louise Prime was one, a good friend that I remember. But no, it wasn't until we got to a field like Craigfield in Alabama that we would be with each other all day long, just two or three of us on the flight line.

00:37:22.100 - 00:37:39.100

While you were in training at Avenger, what was a typical day like? Well, it was very regimented. We'd be out early in the morning in the dark, lining up for a parade to probably breakfast.

00:37:39.100 - 00:37:58.100

And then the other flight would be the opposite. If we flew in the morning, they'd fly in the afternoon, or vice versa. And we didn't really mix with them because we were always in different classes and different times.

00:37:58.100 - 00:38:18.100

What was ground school like? It was pretty interesting. The only thing I had trouble with was identifying airplanes. Just like I can't tell one car from another, I didn't know one airplane from another.

00:38:18.100 - 00:38:29.100

You mentioned the mess hall. What was the food like? Was it food that you were used to eating? I don't even remember what we had.

00:38:29.100 - 00:38:48.100

I remember it was the first time I had ever had a grilled cheese sandwich, though, was in Sweetwater. I had never had that at home, and I loved it. As far as exercise, what kind of program did you have?

00:38:48.100 - 00:39:07.100

We did gymnastics, I think probably once or twice a week with some heavy guy, some sergeant or something. He'd lead us around doing the exercises. Do you remember him?

00:39:07.100 - 00:39:19.100

No, that was Lieutenant LaRue. Yeah, right, that name is familiar now. What was the first airplane you flew at Avenger? What did you start training on?

00:39:19.100 - 00:39:31.100

PT-17, was it? PT-19, maybe? The Fairchild? Uh-huh. And then did you switch into the Stearman?

00:39:31.100 - 00:39:46.100

Yeah, the basic trainer was the Stearman, yeah. Do you recall who your instructor was? No. Tell me about going to auxiliary fields, for example.

00:39:46.100 - 00:40:01.100

Do you remember flying to auxiliary fields? No, I don't. How long did your primary training last? I think two months.

00:40:01.100 - 00:40:17.100

Did some of the girls in your bay wash out? Yeah, I remember a girl named Nikki, Nikki, and she must have had a name close to MNOP. Do you know why she washed out?

00:40:17.100 - 00:40:35.100

No, because, see, they'd be given their exit papers and would be gone before you'd even know they were gone. While you were in primary training, did anything unusual happen? No.

00:40:35.100 - 00:40:46.100

No discipline problems? No. I know I spent Christmas alone that day. A lot of people had gone home,

00:40:46.100 - 00:41:08.100

but I was able to call my parents and talk to them. While you were in training, weekends, how did you spend weekends? Well, sometimes I would take that cattle trip in and go to the USO building, rooms that they had,

00:41:08.100 - 00:41:20.100

and read magazines there for a while. And I don't even know if I went to a movie there. I don't recall that. Did you go to church there?

00:41:20.100 - 00:41:33.100

Yeah, I did. Do you remember what the name of it was? No, but it was--to find a Catholic church, I had to go to a Mexican area or town.

00:41:33.100 - 00:41:42.100

Did you meet any of the local people that you remember? No. Or have any contact with them? No, never did.

00:41:42.100 - 00:42:05.100

While you were in training, did Ms. Cochran visit the field? No. Tell me about your check rides. Well, you've only got a check ride if your instructor thought you needed it, right?

00:42:05.100 - 00:42:18.100

I think I had one, but I passed it. Okay. Do you remember what happened when a girl would solo? Well, they went to the wishing well.

00:42:18.100 - 00:42:29.100

What was the wishing well? It was--did we just jump in with our feet? I don't even remember. We didn't get wet all over, I don't think, did we?

00:42:29.100 - 00:42:37.100

It was pretty short. Yeah, it wasn't very deep. It was symbolic. Right.

00:42:37.100 - 00:42:50.100

Yeah. When you finished your primary training, then what did you do? Then you went to a basic training? Yes.

00:42:50.100 - 00:43:12.100

I think the routine was pretty much the same, flying in the morning, at ground school in the afternoon, or vice versa. During the primary training, what did you learn to do in an airplane? Probably take it off and land and spin.

00:43:12.100 - 00:43:34.100

And I learned to adjust for the wind. Did you ever have any real frightening moments? No, I didn't. I think maybe one day I guess I was trying to land around 4:30 or 5,

00:43:34.100 - 00:43:54.100

and the sun was right in my eyes, and I didn't land because I couldn't quite--I was so blinded by that sun. So I just went up and went around and came in again. And it wasn't much better, but I just continued on down and made it.

00:43:54.100 - 00:44:16.100

When you finished primary then and went into basic training, which was the instrument training, how did you enjoy instrument flying? I didn't like it at all. Tell me what would happen.

00:44:16.100 - 00:44:35.100

We're behind a curtain kind of thing, and I had to listen for a sound that I could barely make out, that you were over it, over that spot that you wanted to be over. It was difficult.

00:44:35.100 - 00:44:51.100

But you made it through. I made it through. While you were in training, did the base itself have social activities that-- I don't remember a single one.

00:44:51.100 - 00:45:13.100

Oh, yes, we'd get around and sing sometimes in the evenings. That was fun because the songs were clever and very pleasant to sing. And did you sing as you marched? Yes, right.

00:45:13.100 - 00:45:36.100

While you were in training, what kind of contact did you have with your family? Oh, I wrote three or four times a week, and my mother probably wrote me about every day and sent me packages of goodies. Did you keep those letters?

00:45:36.100 - 00:45:54.100

No, and I wish she had kept mine, but I don't think she did. I mean, I never saw them. While you were in training, at some point you did get some uniforms, did you not? Yes.

00:45:54.100 - 00:46:14.100

You want to tell us about that uniform? Well, it was a good-looking blue outfit with pants and a battle jacket. I didn't like the beret, but-- It looks good in the pictures now.

00:46:14.100 - 00:46:33.100

Do you recall being fitted for those uniforms? No, I don't. When you were in training, what did you expect to happen when you graduated? Well, I knew we'd go be assigned to some field.

00:46:33.100 - 00:47:05.100

As far as the military, what were your expectations? Well, I was assigned to Dodge City and went on a train across the whole Kansas. And when we got there, there were about 25 gals, and this commander said, "He didn't have any use for you girls,

00:47:05.100 - 00:47:24.100

but he had a list of other places that he could send us to, so two could go here and one could go there." And we all sat around in a group, and somebody took charge and said, "Who wants to go to South Carolina?"

00:47:24.100 - 00:47:48.100

And I think I raised my hand for that because it sounded close enough to Boston. I could get home maybe once in a while. And Jean Norbeck, that was one of the gals in my bay all the way through, she got it. I don't know how we--whether we raised our hands and somebody took a vote, I don't know.

00:47:48.100 - 00:48:16.100

But anyway, Jean was killed. She was one of those who was killed while flying. I often thought, "Well, maybe I would have been killed if I had gotten that spot." So eventually I was given Craigfield in Selma, Alabama, took a train down to it. Let me go back and ask you about graduation.

00:48:16.100 - 00:48:36.100

Were there any celebrities as far as the Army, Air Force, any of their generals? Who came to your graduation? I have no idea. It's probably in that roster. Okay. But when you graduated, then you got the orders to go to Dodge.

00:48:36.100 - 00:48:50.100

Yeah. And then how long did you stay at Dodge before you were assigned to Craig? It was probably just two or three or four days. Then how did you get from--were you the only one assigned to Craig?

00:48:50.100 - 00:49:01.100

Yes. How did you get from Dodge, Kansas, to Craig, Alabama? Somehow or other, I remember that I had to--I stayed awake almost the whole night because I didn't have an alarm clock.

00:49:01.100 - 00:49:22.100

And I had to be leaving the base by like 5 or something to get the train. And I must have had a cab. I just--or maybe--I just don't remember how I got to the train. But maybe they gave me a ride from the base to the train. How long were you in training?

00:49:22.100 - 00:49:38.100

From October till April. When you got to Craig, to whom did you report? The head guy, the commander of the base. What was that reception like?

00:49:38.100 - 00:49:55.100

He seemed to be very pleasant. He wasn't--he just told me where to go for the barracks. And they had two WASPs already there. And we lived in a barracks with a nurse.

00:49:55.100 - 00:50:06.100

And so we each had a room of our own. It was kind of nice. And the field itself was a permanent base. It wasn't just thrown up because of the law.

00:50:06.100 - 00:50:33.100

And they had gardenia bushes all over with blooming gardenias. And I was used to gardenias being something you had when you had a prom dress and a corsage. And so it was a beautiful place. And we walked over a little bridge over a creek to get to the flight line.

00:50:33.100 - 00:50:43.100

It was a really pleasant base. What was Craig's mission? They were training. They had cadets there.

00:50:43.100 - 00:50:57.100

What phase of training? It must have been the advanced. And when you reported in, what did the commanding officer say that your assignment would be? What would you be doing?

00:50:57.100 - 00:51:25.100

Oh, we went to the flight line every day. And they would call us when they had a plane that had been repaired to take it out to see if it worked. While you were there, did you have other assignments? Yes. I went on a lot of cross-country trips, like down to the Gulf.

00:51:25.100 - 00:51:41.100

There was a base down there that they seemed to have a lot of interchange of things. I can't even think of its name now. And I did go to Orlando for some special training in Orlando. Do you remember what that was?

00:51:41.100 - 00:51:58.100

Yeah, we went there for-- That was OCS. Were there other WASPs from Craig who went to OCS at Orlando? No, I think I went by myself that time.

00:51:58.100 - 00:52:12.100

Do you recall how long that training was for? I'd say two weeks or three, two to three weeks. And do you remember what you learned? No.

00:52:12.100 - 00:52:24.100

No. Okay. I don't remember much, do I? No, that's okay. While you were at Craig, did Ms. Cochran ever visit Craig?

00:52:24.100 - 00:52:41.100

I never saw her. If she came, I didn't see her. Who were the other two WASPs who were at Craig? Peg McNamara was one, and the other girl was Mike.

00:52:41.100 - 00:53:05.100

But she had an officer boyfriend on the field, so we really didn't become friends. She was always with him. Can you tell me something about Peg McNamara? She was a beautiful redhead, and you remember Robert Bob was also a redhead.

00:53:05.100 - 00:53:37.100

She was going with a lieutenant sleighmaker, and we stood up, my husband and I. We weren't married then, but we went to their wedding in a little chapel on the field. And they stayed married until Peg died. And when did you discover something special about her, the story that you told us?

00:53:37.100 - 00:54:02.100

Yes, when a sleigh, as we called him, came to Dallas, and we had him out to our house. It was during the conversations that he had said that Peg's brother was Robert McNamara, who was the defense secretary and led us into this Vietnam War. But yet she never mentioned him.

00:54:02.100 - 00:54:29.100

No. Juan, you were at Craig. What was your social life like? Well, I had a boyfriend at that time, and we met because he was a student cadet, but he was an officer. He had come in from Alaska.

00:54:29.100 - 00:55:05.100

And so he had the privileges of an officer and could go to the officer's club. And I had my wings, and he was still trying to get his, but he eventually did, of course. So we could see each other for dinner and dances and going into the big city of Selma. What attracted--what were the qualities that he possessed that attracted you?

00:55:05.100 - 00:55:37.100

He was very kind and good to me, and he seemed to like being with me. And he was eventually moved to Connecticut, Bradley Field in Connecticut. And I--we were, of course, discharged or dismissed, so I was very happy to go to Boston and have him come visit me in Boston,

00:55:37.100 - 00:56:03.100

and I'd go to visit him in Connecticut, which was not far away. How did you meet him at Craig? Oh, he saw me going through the line at the officer's club and called me one night. And could he come over? So I said yes.

00:56:03.100 - 00:56:23.100

And we just sat out on the steps of this barracks and talked and walked. Was he your first real boyfriend? Yeah. And then while you were still stationed there, was he shipped out to another base?

00:56:23.100 - 00:56:35.100

No. I think--I don't know. We must have--we were dismissed around December, wasn't it? Right.

00:56:35.100 - 00:56:50.100

I think he might have gone up to Bradley by then. Have all we always do? Yeah. We're just fiddling around back here.

00:56:50.100 - 00:56:58.100

Are you-- Betsy ran out of tape, so I put that to the VCR. Are you to the end of your tape? I've got five minutes left.

00:56:58.100 - 00:57:06.100

Okay. Tell me about--is this the young man that you married? Yeah. Tell me about your wedding.

00:57:06.100 - 00:57:31.100

Well, it was at the Bradley Field on a Saturday morning. My mother and father and my best friend came, and it was--I was in a suit. And he had just Saturday and Sunday off, and so it was a very small wedding. Right.

00:57:31.100 - 00:58:08.100

And once you were married, then where did you live? We lived first in Richmond, Virginia--on Long Island, and then Richmond, Virginia. And then he had to go to California, so I flew home because I was expecting a baby. And then they dropped the bomb out in Japan, so he did not have to go into the Pacific.

00:58:08.100 - 00:58:20.100

And so he was heading home very shortly after we got married. Okay. But he went ahead and finished and got his wings? Yeah, yeah.

00:58:20.100 - 00:58:26.100

Right. And then what did he fly? He was flying pursuit planes. Okay.

00:58:26.100 - 00:58:35.100

P-47, P-58, or something like that. P-47, I know. And who was the better pilot? I think he was.

00:58:35.100 - 00:58:51.100

[Laughter] Okay. And then at some point, he decided to get out of the Army Air Force? Right, because now--we were now married and had a child, and he just wanted to get on with his life.

00:58:51.100 - 00:59:03.100

Right. So where did you move then? To Cleveland. That's where he was from, and he was able to get a job there.

00:59:03.100 - 00:59:24.100

Okay. And what kind of work did he do then? Well, he joined the John Hancock Insurance, and then they transferred us to Dallas, and so we were here mostly since '49.

00:59:24.100 - 00:59:43.100

And when you were transferred to Dallas, did you just have the one child at that point? No, I had--oh, we had lived in Milwaukee first for three years, and then when we came to Dallas, we had three children. Okay.

00:59:43.100 - 00:59:58.100

So your time was spent mostly with the children. Right. Where did you live in Dallas? Well, our first house was in Highland Park.

00:59:58.100 - 01:00:23.100

You've been told that's where you have to buy, and it was on Potomac Avenue. And it was an old house with an old bathroom, but three huge bedrooms. And I thought everybody would be coming to visit. I had read about, you know, southern hospitality and stuff.

01:00:23.100 - 01:00:38.100

None of my neighbors came over for the first six months. And the one right here, she never spoke to me at all, and we were only separated by a driveway. But she'd sit out there and watch us go down,

01:00:38.100 - 01:00:52.100

and with me pushing a baby carriage, I could walk to Highland Park Village. Did you speak to her? No, because she didn't speak to me. And she didn't want to.

01:00:52.100 - 01:01:10.100

I don't think she liked these little children that were maybe running across her lawn now and then. Did your mom and dad ever get to visit you in Dallas? Yeah. They were in Milwaukee while we were there, and then they came down to Dallas,

01:01:10.100 - 01:01:21.100

and Hank's parents came down. When your children-- I'm going to change that. Oh, okay.

01:01:21.100 - 01:01:28.100

We'll just hold on. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

01:01:28.100 - 01:01:39.100

You were talking about your parents and his parents coming to see you in Dallas. Yeah. What were those first three children? Three girls.

01:01:39.100 - 01:01:52.100

Three girls. The next two were girls. But five. Five girls.

01:01:52.100 - 01:02:04.100

And then little boys started coming out. So just two boys. And then the last one was another girl. Oh, my goodness.

01:02:04.100 - 01:02:15.100

Oh, my goodness. For summer vacations, what did you do? Well, we never took Paul anywhere. So like two girls, we had a plane at that time.

01:02:15.100 - 01:02:36.100

So we flew to Disney World in California with two of the girls. You didn't get to go, Betsy. And then we tried to just take one or two on different-- like we went to a cowboy kind of a place where you stayed, you know,

01:02:36.100 - 01:02:52.100

in horses and people eating or something. And we went to camps, Girl Scout camps. And we didn't do much. We went to the pool every day.

01:02:52.100 - 01:03:00.100

They all were good swimmers. Did you use this airplane? Did he use this airplane in his work? No.

01:03:00.100 - 01:03:13.100

Well, yes, he would. He would fly to various places. But it was mainly for pleasure, his pleasure. I start saying, when you would go in that airplane, who would be the pilot?

01:03:13.100 - 01:03:25.100

He would. Was that because you wanted him to be? Yeah. By that time, I didn't feel like I was ready to--

01:03:25.100 - 01:03:37.100

What did he have? The first one was a beach. I can't remember. The last one was a Cessna 218 or something.

01:03:37.100 - 01:03:42.100

The one with the bonanza, huh? Yeah, the bonanza. Right. Thank you.

01:03:42.100 - 01:03:58.100

And then he switched to a Cessna. And he was always putting new things on it. Did your children-- were they able to visit their grandparents during the summer?

01:03:58.100 - 01:04:11.100

No. That was just too far away, you know, from Dallas to Boston, and too expensive. You moved to Boston, though. Oh, yeah, we did move to Boston in the '60s for three years.

01:04:11.100 - 01:04:23.100

My husband and I, John Hancock, made the decision. And so for three years, we lived in Massachusetts. And we lived in a lot of cousins that were around and got to meet my-- Well, I think my granddad was dead by then.

01:04:23.100 - 01:04:30.100

Yeah, the grand-- My mother was-- Vacation on Lake Winnipeg Coffee. Oh, yeah, that's right.

01:04:30.100 - 01:04:46.100

In Hampshire. So when your children were growing up, what was a Christmas like? Hectic. Well, one Christmas, a daughter that lived in Massachusetts

01:04:46.100 - 01:05:02.100

was coming down to be married. Two days later, the 27th, and, oh, you know, Christmas was horrendous. You know, toys and paper and everything around on Christmas. Oh, it was a mess.

01:05:02.100 - 01:05:23.100

And here she's coming. And Carol, I think she was there for Christmas. But, I mean, to have--oh, so we were having the reception in the house. And I did have a lady who was very--sort of a coordinator.

01:05:23.100 - 01:05:38.100

So she helped me a lot and put out lights down to the sidewalk and things like that and brought in the cake and all that. But that was--I'll never forget that. Well, besides, this young guy she was marrying, whose name was Murphy,

01:05:38.100 - 01:06:01.100

she became Karen Wischmeyer Murphy. His family didn't know anything about rehearsal dinners that were accepted. So I had to--I prepared, you know, a casserole and salads and had everybody in the wedding party the day before the 26th.

01:06:01.100 - 01:06:14.100

I mean, that was the achievement of my whole life. So Christmases were fabulous. My mother, Fanta, would bring a pile for each child. And you'd walk in the room, and I always believed in Santa Claus,

01:06:14.100 - 01:06:32.100

but we didn't figure how could our parents possibly want to give a pile for each kid. Well, that little boy, you know, to walk up to the things bar. We have movies of him holding a red balloon, you know, that was his favorite thing. A red balloon.

01:06:32.100 - 01:06:43.100

Wow. Your pilot, your husband was a pilot. Are any of your children pilots? No, none of them even want to fly with their dad. They'd get--like he took the boys when we were up in Massachusetts

01:06:43.100 - 01:06:59.100

to fly over to Martha's Vineyard, and they'd get sick, you know, they'd get nauseated. Wow. Some of them had--they went to--Martha had a--he thought it would be unique if dad would take him and his bride-to-be up in the airplane.

01:06:59.100 - 01:07:18.100

And I think he asked her there to marry him or something like that. But anyway, no, none of them ever wanted to be-- Oh, my--the other son, the older son that went to Annapolis, he would have loved to fly, but he had to become a navigator

01:07:18.100 - 01:07:33.100

because his eyes didn't pass the test. And he really hated that because he didn't like being at the mercy of this pilot. And so it was a-- Can you tell me the names of all your children?

01:07:33.100 - 01:07:51.100

Yes. I know their names and their years of birth. Okay, tell me their names beginning with the older. Karen, Susan, Kathy, Terry, Betsy, Chip, Mark, Jim.

01:07:51.100 - 01:08:06.100

That's great. The oldest was 18 when the little one was born. Are they all now married? All are married except one--no, two, three.

01:08:06.100 - 01:08:13.100

Three are not. They had been. They had been married, but they are not now. And how many grandchildren do you have?

01:08:13.100 - 01:08:23.100

I think 20. And now what is a Christmas like in your home? How many great-grandchildren? Great-grands.

01:08:23.100 - 01:08:40.100

They have three right around the corner from me. This daughter of Kathy, she has three little kids, cute as can be. No wonder Dallas is growing. Yeah.

01:08:40.100 - 01:09:07.100

And her son has three, so I really have--I don't know how many great-grands. What do you feel your life experience did for you? Well, it gave me an adventure. Instead of a friend--my good friend there in Boston, she's very content to just stay there.

01:09:07.100 - 01:09:21.100

And I even invited her to come down to Dallas. Oh, no, she just didn't think she would. I think it gave me more of a sense of doing something with your life besides just teaching. How do you spend your time now, Rita?

01:09:21.100 - 01:09:39.100

Very pleasantly. I live in a retirement home. And, well, we went there because my husband was really very ill, and he couldn't even get out of his chair.

01:09:39.100 - 01:10:02.100

He couldn't even move. So Betsy found--the first place she looked was Signature Point on Preston Road. And she liked it, and she came over really terrified to broach this idea to us that we should-- because he had fallen a couple times, and I could get him up.

01:10:02.100 - 01:10:21.100

He weighed 200 pounds and a good weight. And I could call Mark, who didn't live too far away, but the front line would be busy. And so Betsy decided we should move to his place, so we did. And I thought it sounded terrific to have him being taken care of over there on that side.

01:10:21.100 - 01:10:39.100

And I would live over here in an apartment, and then I could just walk Rain or Shine over there three times a day and see that they're taking care of him and got him to bed when he should get to bed and stuff. So then he died in 2000 on--22nd day.

01:10:39.100 - 01:10:57.100

And so I was there already ensconced and very happy there. I have a lot of good friends there. And all--don't have to grocery shop, don't have to cook, don't have to clean up the table after you finish eating.

01:10:57.100 - 01:11:04.100

You just get up and leave it and walk away. It was wonderful. - How often do you go to the club, Rain? - Just once a week. - Oh, okay. - Yeah.

01:11:04.100 - 01:11:17.100

That's good. And we have good entertainment there, too. Great. In looking back over your life, each of us--

01:11:17.100 - 01:11:35.100

there are good times and there are bad times, sad times. What got you through the sad times? I think my faith. I just--I pray for things like the kids.

01:11:35.100 - 01:11:48.100

I prayed them all through their exams. Thank you very much. When they're driving from Austin up to Dallas, I'm praying that they get there safely. They win the game.

01:11:48.100 - 01:12:08.100

That's quite a reward, though, for you, I'm sure. In looking back at your WASP experience, what is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? What did she do that was special or not special? No, she was a very, very special person.

01:12:08.100 - 01:12:36.100

She had all kinds of records that she had overcome the men in some of the cases. I think she was a really outstanding model for us. And as far as the WASP program, what do you think it accomplished? Well, it actually probably made--

01:12:36.100 - 01:12:55.100

[audio distortion] She's saying, "Oh, well, the women will be in Annapolis soon." No way! They had a big fight. No way would they have women in there.

01:12:55.100 - 01:13:16.100

Well, of course, two or three years later, they did have them. So I think we and the women out there in the Air Force Academy, they really think we opened the doors for them. And I guess we did because we had a good record of flying.

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What do you think the legacy of WASP would be? The fact that they opened up the doors for women, opportunities for women that had never been thought of before. I know that you attended the WASP Museum Memorial Fly-In. Could you give me your overall opinion of a WASP Museum at Avenger Field and of that experience?

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The experience we went, it was fantastic. We couldn't believe all the little treats we were given. It was beautiful, and I really appreciated it. And riding in that Corvette and putting our hands in the cement and dinners and breakfasts.

01:14:08.100 - 01:14:28.100

It was a great, oh, and then all the hats that we were given and the roses. It never stopped. We were just treated like royalty. What do you think about establishing a permanent museum at Avenger Field?

01:14:28.100 - 01:14:45.100

I think that's the place it should be. That's where it began. It's a wonderful place to have it. If you could say anything to children, because they will be watching this maybe 50 years from now,

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that might encourage them, what would you like to say to them? Well, try to follow your dream. Something that you really would love to do and work to do it. Work hard to do it.

01:15:10.100 - 01:15:36.100

And to your grandchildren? I don't have much influence on them. But we have some leaders at Signature Point there. And you can see those that really, really want to get ahead, they study hard and get good grades.

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And then they were so good, this brother and a sister, they're both now in college, and we have given them support money. And so when kids really want to get ahead and work hard, there's no stopping them. So I hope that everybody that would like to go on to college could.

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And I think, well, my grandchildren, I think, well, surely they're already thinking of it now that the parents are. Is there anything that I have left out that you would like to talk about? I can't think of anything. How about your years of Ladies of Charity Month?

01:16:25.100 - 01:16:45.100

Oh, well, that was just my own. I worked there, it's a thrift store, and I worked there for over 20 years. It was just that I enjoyed it, and we helped people. It was very little. Everything was donated.

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Was it a part of the church activity? No, it was just a part of these ladies. Okay, just a volunteer organization. A volunteer group, yeah.

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And we gave them lunches to the homeless every day, which is probably just enabling them. But anyway, they do it. People come in asking for change, which they do, and a lot of goodbyes, because people are out of clothes or something. So there's a lot of goodbyes to be had.

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Are you still involved with any volunteer-- I still collect, and if I don't have a friend that's going down to the store-- it's way down at Abrams and almost to Route 30, it's way in East Dallas. And so I'll take--I have a trunk load right now that I have to--

01:17:45.100 - 01:18:10.100

so people in Australia, I'm always finding bags of things that they are donating to me. They call me the bag lady. Because I'm always going out to my car carrying bags that people have left at my door. In looking back over your life, what is the one thing outside of having your family that you have done

01:18:10.100 - 01:18:44.100

that you are the most proud of? Outside of the family. I can't think of anything special. Yeah, I just talked about that.

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I enjoyed that because I like the ladies I worked with, and it was fun. What would you like your legacy to be? See, those are things that I don't ever think about. Just that I tried hard, the best I could, raising them.

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I think you've done a good job. Thank you. Nancy, is there anything you would like to ask? Can I ask, because you said something earlier about going to the Latin school and how you completely failed. Yes.

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You just failed. Right. And you said you went back the next year and got a little better. And the next year and it got a little better.

01:19:41.100 - 01:19:52.100

I would have gone back to the old school or found a new school. Did you repeat the one grade, Mom? Yes, the seventh grade. She had to repeat what she did.

01:19:52.100 - 01:20:00.100

But it was either repeat it or go back to the other school. Right, yes. What made you willing to do that? I don't know, maybe to please my mother.

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It could be that. And it was prestigious. And she was kind of the big voice in our family. Well, she also believed you were smart.

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Well, she did think so. Yes. And you seemed to have proved it by the time you got there. Well, eventually.

01:20:17.100 - 01:20:31.100

I must have learned how to study or something. They always say you have to learn how to study. Well, it takes time to learn that, I guess. I see. Emanuel was a private college.

01:20:31.100 - 01:20:40.100

How did you get to go there, Mom? Because your family didn't have any money. Well, no. I had an aunt that was a nun in that convent.

01:20:40.100 - 01:20:56.100

So they gave me a real special rate. But I had turned down the University of Vermont scholarship because that would be too much for my family to have done. Make room and board.

01:20:56.100 - 01:21:08.100

Emanuel was a Catholic college. But private, expensive. Not expensive, really. Going into the smink, I think it was like $200 a year.

01:21:08.100 - 01:21:23.100

But that was in the '40s. I was going to ask, was there anything about Lonnie that you could say, "I loved this"? Can you tell me how that felt, for instance, to solo for the first time?

01:21:23.100 - 01:21:32.100

Or to solo in an aircraft like the 86? Can you describe that for me? I've never been in that situation. Yeah.

01:21:32.100 - 01:21:53.100

Well, by the time we were trained and had the instructor with you, it wasn't that much terrifying. Because he doesn't do it lightly. He has you do it over and over and over.

01:21:53.100 - 01:22:09.100

To land, take off and land and all that. So I don't remember feeling much fear. But the landing is always iffy. You're coming down, you're hoping that you won't bounce.

01:22:09.100 - 01:22:19.100

Just get it down nice and smooth. And that takes a lot of-- What about the wind? Yeah, that's always a factor.

01:22:19.100 - 01:22:32.100

You have to kind of turn this way if you want to go straight. Did it feel to you like you were in a different country when you moved from Boston to Texas? Yes.

01:22:32.100 - 01:22:44.100

Right, right. It was completely different. Did it feel like that when you moved to Selma, Alabama? No, that wasn't so much--

01:22:44.100 - 01:23:03.100

One funny story there, though, is I was used to blacks not mingling with whites by this time. And so one day I had gone into a hotel, probably Montgomery, and I heard what sounded like two black ladies

01:23:03.100 - 01:23:18.100

talking to each other in the-- And I thought, "Oh, how come they didn't?" Well, they came out, they were two lovely old-dressed ladies. It was the way they talked that I thought that they were black.

01:23:18.100 - 01:23:32.100

What was your first impression of Avenger Field? Do you remember the first time you saw the airplanes? We'll see. I probably just accepted it as being--

01:23:32.100 - 01:23:39.100

"This is the way an airport looks," because I had only been to the-- The only other one I had been to was out there in Norwood, Massachusetts, which is a small town.

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And it just seemed like, "This is it? This is what they have for us?" When you said you marched-- You warmed up at dark to march to eat.

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Did you have to work at night? No. So you had to eat? Yeah, and you had to get in line.

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And there was somebody-- It would be the lieutenant-- Not lieutenant, somebody would lead, get you going, start on the left foot, go.

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And then march. And then because we can't interview Jeanne Norbeck, can you tell me anything you remember about her since she was your bay mate? The only thing I can remember about her is that--

01:24:26.100 - 01:24:44.100

See, this is, to me, was a very-- Living with five other women that I had never lived with before, she would walk around there up here. I thought that was so odd

01:24:44.100 - 01:25:03.100

because I would go to the shower and try to pull the curtain over. We shared six here and six there with the same bathroom, so there weren't too much privacy. They did have doors on all the floors.

01:25:03.100 - 01:25:17.100

Did you always make sure you had on your lipstick? I don't think I even put lipstick on most days. Combed your hair? Yes, we combed our hair.

01:25:17.100 - 01:25:31.100

Those are things that we don't experience in our training. I'm going to ask you about the anatomy class for 10 years. Did you ever play for people? Just in those recitals that you do with other pupils.

01:25:31.100 - 01:25:43.100

I never really cared for it, and I didn't like practicing, so it was kind of a waste of money. Could you sight-read? Well, in those days I could, yeah,

01:25:43.100 - 01:25:57.100

but I've lost all that now because I haven't played. Did any of your kids go into music? Betsy can play beauty, and she doesn't have to listen, but she worked at it and had a nice girl and plays.

01:25:57.100 - 01:26:10.100

Like you say, if you work at it-- I want to. See, some people want to and some people don't. In your early description of what you wanted to study,

01:26:10.100 - 01:26:23.100

you talked about social work. Do you think that many of the things that you've done have a similarity to that? Probably that thrift store was satisfying work,

01:26:23.100 - 01:26:47.100

and I did try other places like St. Paul's, volunteer ladies. I tried that, but I didn't feel--I didn't like that there. I could find other places where I found something I really liked. If I asked you to describe yourself using adjectives,

01:26:47.100 - 01:26:58.100

using a couple of adjectives-- not Betsy, I'm not asking Betsy because she can't talk now-- to describe yourself using adjectives, what kind of adjectives would you use?

01:26:58.100 - 01:27:21.100

I think I'd say friendly, kind, happy, and busy. [laughter] Now, if I were to ask Betsy, I'd get a whole different list. I was just curious.

01:27:21.100 - 01:27:33.100

We did a video a couple years ago for the WASP and asked the kids of the WASP to describe their mothers, and I don't think any of their mothers would have used the word "kiss." I think that's about--that's my list.

01:27:33.100 - 01:27:44.100

I'm fascinated because I think that every WASP is incredible, outstanding, even if you don't think so. What you did, number one for our country, just in doing it has never died.

01:27:44.100 - 01:27:52.100

In doing it because it was the right thing to do, in doing it because your country needed you, and you changed your whole life. You came to Texas.

01:27:52.100 - 01:28:00.100

That's a moment come. You paid your own money. So I hope you know that you are, as an American, as a woman, as a woman of great importance.

01:28:00.100 - 01:28:10.100

That's why we're doing this. And Rita, I will honestly tell you that when I started this-- and I'll keep the camera rolling because I've got plenty of tape, and that way Betsy will have a copy of this--

01:28:10.100 - 01:28:22.100

when I started this project, and Mom said, "Well, let's just interview a couple of WASPs." I prayed, and I said--you talk about prayer. I said, "Lord, please don't let this be about me.

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"Please don't let this be about a bunch of women who flew. "Please let this be about something bigger than that." And God answers prayers for me usually in a big way. And the first WASP we interviewed was Ruth Helm,

01:28:33.100 - 01:28:48.100

who lives in Arizona, who is a wonderful Christian lady who is a role model and just somebody extraordinary. And that was an answer to a prayer. It was about something bigger.

01:28:48.100 - 01:29:02.100

And then Sister Teresa was able to come to Baylor University, way from Ireland to French Antilles. She got permission to come here to tell her story. So every first interview we had was another affirmation for me

01:29:02.100 - 01:29:12.100

that this is the right thing to do. And every once in a while, we'll interview a WASP who's an agnostic. And we interviewed one who said she was an atheist, and I said, "No, you're not, because you use God's name in vain,

01:29:12.100 - 01:29:26.100

"so you know he exists." But she still has a very big spirit. She's just too independent to believe anybody else is in charge but her. But I think of all the WASPs we've interviewed, most of them are Christians,

01:29:26.100 - 01:29:41.100

and it's been an extraordinary experience. It's been the answer to a prayer over and over. So I'm telling you this to say thank you, but also so you know, I think it's part of a bigger thing, and I always have.

01:29:41.100 - 01:30:00.100

Well, I think part of my mother's legacy, being the fifth daughter, is that I always remember growing up thinking my mother was very intelligent, very smart. And I remember in the '60s, she had the woman's lip sign as a sticker over the sink.

01:30:00.100 - 01:30:09.100

So I always knew she was a very strong woman. But she was at the dishes, washing the dishes? Well, yeah, she took care of eight children. I always felt like I wonder what my mother could have done.

01:30:09.100 - 01:30:20.100

But she had a legacy. But also, she raised daughters to be strong. She was always like whatever you wanted to do, you could try, encouraging you to do new things or whatever.

01:30:20.100 - 01:30:33.100

And she had a great way of raising eight children because I've raised two, and I think, "How do you raise eight?" Not well. Thank you, God, for my sister.

01:30:33.100 - 01:30:42.100

She raised two and put some pressure on me. Which of your children aren't married? Is there one that's a guy? No.

01:30:42.100 - 01:30:49.100

No. Nancy has never been married. I'm doing this so you can see what it looks like. You're so sweet to do that.

01:30:49.100 - 01:31:02.100

Thank you so much. [unclear dialogue] Thank you very much. You'll see over here, I'm rolling a tape for her that's just a videotape of what we've been doing.

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I can't say how much I appreciate it. [unclear dialogue] I have Hi8, but I don't have any blanks. I don't shoot on Hi8 anymore.

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[unclear dialogue] You have eye drops. She has eye drops. Oh, you have eye drops.

01:31:41.100 - 01:31:45.100

I have eye drops. I have glaucoma. Yeah? I do too.

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Twice a day? Good. That's nice. Do a lot of people not remember things back there?

01:31:52.100 - 01:32:04.100

Yeah, some of them do. She doesn't remember some stuff. But I make it up if I don't. Now, Mom was our very first interview.

01:32:04.100 - 01:32:13.100

I practiced on her, and my sister did the interview. Well, that was a dumb thing to do because Barbie hadn't been studying it. She didn't know anything about the WASP. But I was running the camera.

01:32:13.100 - 01:32:30.100

I was more concerned with how the picture looked than what she had to say. I thought, "We can fix this later." And she won't let me do it again. [unclear dialogue]

01:32:30.100 - 01:32:41.100

I got two of them. There's two of them for you. There's one at the end of the hall and one right around the corner. One at the end of the hall I just turned the water on because it runs all the time.

01:32:41.100 - 01:33:05.100

We got one of those hot-magnets back now. It's so hard because I know I didn't want to talk, but there's so many. [unclear dialogue] [ Applause ]

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