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[AUDIO OUT] - Idiot. [AUDIO OUT] [ Silence ]

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[VIDEO PLAYBACK] [MUSIC PLAYING] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [ Music ]

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The Islamic explosion in Muslim countries has led Islam to the second place in the world after Christianity in terms of its followers. Ideologists of Islam consider the development of modern society, the tendencies and interests of the youth, and the scientific and technical progress. [music] Today our program is led by the doctor of historical sciences, Gasym Kerimov.

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When it comes to modernization of Islam, it is not about religion, what are the Islamic rituals, or whether these rituals are modernized, or how to pray, which way to pray. This is not what it is about.

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It is about the fact that the modernization of Islam - [Russian translation] This is a problem of protecting the world.

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In a word, religion cannot lag behind people, because people live in the modern age, with their own affairs, their own concerns, and, of course, humanity thinks how to better preserve the world,

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how to protect the world, and, naturally, in order not to lag behind the modern man, Muslim theologians, as well as theologians of other religions, and try to modernize and adapt religion to the modern demands.

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Modernization is one of the important ways to adapt religion, including Islam, to new demands, to new social structures. This is a historical condition. Without this, religion cannot live, cannot develop. Modernization means updating of religious rituals, although the basis remains, updating of some new interpretations, for example, surahs of the Quran, chapters of the Quran. Modernization means new interpretations of the speech of the Muslim prophet Hadith, which takes second place after the Quran, a very important place.

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The main goal of modernization of Islam is to save religion, including Islam, from crisis. Don't think that everyone writes that Islam has become more active, that Islam is becoming more politicized. This indicates that this is a crisis. They are trying to protect the religion of the Muslim majority.

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Political activism is a form of protection of religion. And of course, without the crisis, without the influence of technological progress, of social problems, no one would modernize. So, religion needs modernization to live longer, to not lag behind the modern man. I must tell you that there was no reformation in Islam. Why? I will explain.

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Why was there Christianity? The fact is that for 1400 years of Islam's existence, starting from the 7th century up to our present day, this is according to the Muslim calendar, 1406. During this time, 1400 years, the Muslim world lived within one social formation of feudalism.

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You know this well from history, that the whole Muslim world in 1400 years knew only one social formation. That is, Islam, originally, as it emerged in the 7th century, as a religion, as a social structure, as a state, realized itself in the very initial stage. A huge Muslim empire, state, caliphate was created.

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And then, already 1400 years later, this Muslim society developed only within one social structure - feudalism. And therefore, there was no such strong reformist movement in Islam until the end of the 19th century. Now many researchers come to the conclusion that political activism of Islam in our time is one of the forms.

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That is, Islam probably did not have time to open up at the initial stage. Islam quickly realized its own social problems, and then it was conserved. And suddenly, the 19th century, the beginning of the 19th century, the end of the 19th century, colonialism, Western culture, scientific and technical progress, the influence of Marxism, socialism,

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foreign to the Muslim world, ideas, philosophical currents. All this is being thrown away in a short time, in a quarter of a century, for the whole Muslim world. How should Muslim ideologists react? How should this religion react? The goal of modernization of religion, including Islam, was very well illuminated by Vladimir Lenin.

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I want to read out a few words from what he said. "The main goal of modernization of religion, including Islam, is to revive religion, to raise the demand for religion, to create religion, to instill in the people or to strengthen the people in a new way, What forms of modernization took place in Islam at the beginning of the 20th century?

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First, one of the important points is the social problem. The creation of a new social order based on Islamic traditions in connection with the influence of capitalism and the influence of the West. The first thing the Muslim theologians tried to do was to eliminate such an Islamic law as the fish.

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It means to take a percentage tax on the debt capital. According to the teachings of Islam, no one has the right to take a percentage. And so, who will then give his 100 rubles for no reason? And here the banking system already influences,

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because the capitalism of the bourgeoisie is connected with the creation of national banks, with the creation of state banks. And how without a percentage? And here arises the question, Islam prevents, Islam does not allow to take a percentage surplus.

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Then the Muslim ideologist comes to the conclusion, on the basis of the teachings of Islam it is written that to take a percentage surplus is to exploit a person. That is, gradually becoming a capitalist person. Islam does not allow this. Then how to be? They began to open their national banks in Muslim countries. and they, like the European banks, were getting interest, but they started to interpret the well-known Islamic law.

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Here modernization makes it clear. For example, a Muslim bank, either private or public, when it gets interest on interest, it doesn't exploit a person, but exploits capital itself. Capital itself is being exploited, not the person.

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They are being cunning in such a way that they are not getting a percentage. The initial modernization of Islam also provided for such modernization acts, For example, does a Muslim have the right to eat meat that is not forbidden by Islam, but not slaughtered by non-Muslims? For example, the famous Islamic modernizer, usually in our books it is called reformer, the founder of Pan-Islamism, Jamaluddin al-Afqani, and Sheikh Muhammad Abdo, an Egyptian theologian.

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- A Muslim has the right to accept a non-prohibited animal, but it is not cut by Muslims. This is one of his modernist views. Next, does a Muslim have the right to wear European clothes? This was also a part of Europe. How to be?

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From the point of view of Islam, a Muslim usually wears a chalma, some national clothes. But there is no clear difference between Muslim and national. Because we know that the clothes of an Egyptian are different from the clothes of a Turkish, Iranian, or Indonesian. But all of them are Muslim.

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So there is no such idea as Muslim clothes. There are just some items that unite them. Chalma, some clothes, maybe. But they are not European costumes.

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Sheikh Mohammed Abdo and Jamaluddin Al-Afqani gave the second legal conclusion of the modernist interpretation. A Muslim has the right to wear European clothes. Jamaluddin Al-Afqani said that wearing American panama and under this panama you can know the great God. That is, this panama will not interfere if a person believes in God.

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That is, this is also a question that can be solved. The third question that was of great interest to the original modelers of these theologians was about art. You know very well that Islam strictly prohibits the depiction of a living creature. And this, in its origin, does not refer to a human being.

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Later, there were prohibitions about a human being. And the original prohibition meant to depict God. That is, from the point of view of Islam, it is impossible to depict God. Neither in the form of a painting, nor in the form of a statue.

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Nothing is possible. That's why when you enter a mosque, you won't see any drawing, no human image, no animal. Why was this impossible and why did Islam not allow this?

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First, the researchers and the Muslim scholars explain it this way. The thing is that the original Islam appeared in Mecca, where there was a very strong tradition of polytheism. Historians say that only in the Khabi, the spiritual center of Islam, in Mecca, there were about 400 idols before Islam. There were so many of them.

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And Islam initially fought the most fierce battle against idol worship. And the idols were destroyed in the Meccan temple. Only the black stone remained there, which is now an idol for Islam. And that's why Islam initially considered the fact that

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to depict a person and a living being in general was initially dangerous. in the sense that people can come and worship them, let's say, with some drawing or some image. So that there is no return of idol worship,

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such fear forced the first ideologists of Islam, especially the Muslim prophet, so that the image of God Himself was not allowed. This is why Islam prohibited,

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and then they generally prohibited the image of a living being. human, animal and so on. I have to tell you that there is another very interesting question. In general, from the point of view of the Muslim tradition,

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it is very difficult to depict the God. The Muslim God, Allah, how to depict Him? In the Quran, the first source of Islam, how is the Muslim God described?

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It is written that "He was not born, and He had no children." [Russian] [ Music ] Islamic ideologists believe that Muslims can do art, sculpture,

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that the danger of worshiping idols has passed. Drawing portraits or photographing a person is simply forbidden, which does not oblige anyone to anything. However, the prohibition of the depiction of a living being in a mosque,

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in the Koran and religious books. Muslims are used to illustrated newspapers and magazines published in their countries. [ Music ]

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One of the forms of modernism was the abolition of the prohibitions on art. But in this context, there were great difficulties in the modern era. I mean the difficulties that arose several years ago in Egypt. Two young Egyptian directors who studied in Italy,

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They saw a famous Italian film on the Christian theme, by the famous Italian director, you probably know him, "Pasolini". This film is called "The Gospel of Matthew". This film received, not a film, but the main role,

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which was performed by a young Mexican student, [ Foreign Language ] When they returned from Italy, they showed a separate fragment of the film on Egyptian television. It was difficult to understand what it was about.

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First, his face was covered, and it was not visible. But it was possible to understand that this man is a prophet. But they did not show his face. There was a film like that, and some ancient Meccan temples, and some of his statements.

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It was difficult to imagine what kind of film it was. Just three days later, local newspapers, Al-Akhram, Al-Gumkhuriyah, made such a fuss about this film, that the Muslim clergy learned about it, and they filed a lawsuit. that this young director has no right to show the Muslim prophet on the screen.

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This is an insult to the prophet, and so on. So the question arises, how to be? Why did they want to show this film? Well, probably, they really had no bad thoughts. They just wanted to make some film, so that everyone would like it.

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On the other hand, they were not Muslims themselves, but they were people of the 20th century, not the 7th. What was the end of this discussion? The Muslim theologians achieved their goal, and the Egyptian Department of the Law of Islam made a special decision that this film cannot be shown on the screen.

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And so they did not allow to show this film. But there was a special decision to manage the affairs of Islam. The history of Islam can be screened, this is also modernism in Islam, it can be shown to everyone except the prophet, his close ones, his wife.

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That was the decision. And, by the way, the Moscow International Film Festival, it was the Egyptians who brought such a film, "The History of Islam". It was called "Victory of Salahuddin Ayyubi".

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This is the famous Salah 1, which the European experts write, which was won by the Crusaders. Further, modernization of Islam also occurs in the field of social issues in our time. How, from the point of view of Islam, is a social revolution acceptable? For example, the Iranian revolution.

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In a Muslim state, to go against a Muslim state or a Muslim ruler is the same sin as to go against God. Why? Because from the point of view of Islam, the Muslim ruler is supposedly the shadow of God on earth. But how can you go against the shadow of God? The Muslim ruler cannot be against him.

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And how to justify Islam, the Iranian people's struggle against the Shah regime? This is a Muslim country. To justify, Islam must be modernized. Classical Islam does not allow people to go against the Muslim ruler.

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So he should be accused of leaving Islam, of becoming a heretic, of becoming against Islam, of becoming against Islamism. This could be done very easily, as the leader of the Iranian revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini, did. There are three words in the Quran. "Allah does not like oppressors."

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And who is "zalim" in Arabic, "oppressor", "tyrant", and so on? And who is this oppressor of Iran? It is the Iranian shah. Next. Is there socialism in Islam? Well, since you know very well that socialism is very widespread in Western European countries and, of course, in the Middle East,

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then the Muslim religion reacts to this call in different ways. If it is possible to destroy this alien Islam and idea, Muslim ideologists and the Muslim religion try to destroy it. And if it is not possible, then it remains to somehow adapt it.

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That is, to give the Islamic cover, the paint, since it is impossible to push it out. The same thing happened to Islam in relation to socialism. So, socialism began to influence people's minds, and in order to remove it, it is impossible, then it must be Islamized, that is, to take away the Marxist soil. What is socialism about? Socialism is in Islam. Why do we need Marx's capital when everything is in the Qur'an?

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The idea is to adapt. But how did they do it? First of all, we are talking about land reform, about property. How to modernize it? For example, Muslim ideologists say that the earth and the sky belong to God.

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Everything that belongs to God belongs to all people, that is, to Muslims. So, the Earth can't be a private property. And on the other hand, they don't forget that Islam recognizes the sanctity of private property. But here they bypass the silence.

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Here it doesn't fit anymore. Next. Here is a very interesting question. In Islam, there can't be a private property on Earth.

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It is attributed to a very ancient Arabic proverb, which also came from the speech of the Muslim prophet. - It is said that Arabs and Muslims are united in three things - the earth, pasture, water and salt. These things cannot be private property. And socialism is the same. The earth cannot be private property, the water cannot be private property, the pasture belongs to everyone. This is socialism. But in reality, this is socialism. There is no socialism here. It's just that we need to understand the lifestyle of Bedouins, the people of the Arabian Peninsula.

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Imagine this huge desert, 90% of it is a desert. Can you imagine? Hundreds of thousands of Arab tribes are nomadic. Somewhere thousands of kilometers away there is a water source. How would it be for these people if this spring belonged to some person?

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He said, "I don't want to give water to anyone. It's my property." So, life itself made people so that there would be no pasture, no spring, no water, no property. So that they belonged to everyone, otherwise other tribes would have died, or it would have led to enmity and extermination of each other.

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That's the point. It's the first public order, and it's being given up for scientific socialism. This is also a kind of modernization of Islam. Further, modernization of Islam also occurs in connection with scientific and technical progress. How do they do it? Nothing is as widespread as scientific and technical progress.

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You know this well. Engels said that if testers are addressing religion as they want, no one is addressing religion as cruelly as testers do. To modernize religion in connection with technological progress, one can't do anything with the theological education. A simple Mullah will never understand how the space flights fly to the Moon. Can a Mullah understand this?

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Of course, for this, the knowledge of modern scientific and technological progress is required. And so, the most recent thing we know in terms of modernization of Islam, The apologetics of Islam are people with technical, medical, philosophical and economic education, which did not exist before. In order to modernize Islam in connection with scientific and technical progress, an attempt is made in Muslim countries.

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Purely, purely in theological universities, they open up secular faculties, which did not exist before. I will give you just one example. The most influential Muslim university in the Middle East is in Cairo. It is Al-Azhar University. It is the most ancient Muslim university that has survived to this day. There were only three faculties there, purely theological.

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The theological faculty, the legal and Sharia faculty and the literary faculty. Suddenly, in this university, just a few years ago, three faculties of engineering, medical and agriculture were opened. Now specialists are admitted to this university.

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They have two diplomas in their pockets. One diploma is for an engineer, who can work at a factory, and at the same time, he can work as an imam in a mosque. Or a doctor, who works as a doctor in a hospital,

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he can work as an imam in a mosque. You see how this adaptation, this protection of faith at the modern stage, they understand well that it cannot be otherwise. So they adapt, somehow take into account the requirements of time,

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first of all, to some extent, they try to satisfy the need in the technical staff of doctors, and on the other hand, they use this fact to protect religion. These people are the ones who modernize Islam the most, depending on their specialization. I will give you two examples.

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For example, Iranian doctor Dr. Ali Parivar. He graduated in England and received a high medical education in Europe. He started to study Islam. He wrote a two-volume book "Perrasi Din Azrahi Tanish" - "Studying Religion from the Perspective of Knowledge".

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He tries to prove that Muslim rituals are of medical importance, not religious. He says that if you pray five times, you should wash your hands five times. He also pushes the Muslim rite of fasting. What is fasting?

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People must observe fasting from morning to evening in the month of Ramadan according to the Islamic law. You can't eat or drink anything until the evening. And in the evening, you can eat. So, what's so amazing here?

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There is fasting in all religions. This doctor gives his interpretation. First, he proves that 20 diseases can be cured by the miracle of fasting. Especially people who are inclined to rejuvenation.

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They write a lot about medicine. And not only about Muslim medicine, but also about Christian medicine. There was a funny story in the Vatican a few years ago. [Russian translation]

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This theologian proved that the first surgeon in the world was God himself. How does he prove this? He tells a biblical legend that when God created Adam, he realized that Adam would be bored, he had to find a girlfriend for him. And where to find? After all, in the world there was only the first word, and then there was Adam, and after God, as Joan affirms. When they say, "Adam has fallen asleep," God uses this case and pulls out of Adam's ribs Eve, and Adam didn't even wake up.

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And he asks this question, "Why didn't Adam wake up? It was a difficult operation to pull a person out of the ribs, and he didn't even wake up." And because God gave him narcosis. That's the most modern concept. Modernization is happening in all areas, in this sense.

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Another issue that is connected with modernization of Islam is the most fashionable in our time, it is the exploration of the cosmos and the flight of man to the moon. One Egyptian theologian spoke on this issue.

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This famous theologian who wrote the 10-volume new commentary of the Quran, said on the Cairo radio, saying that recently he has been addressed from different Muslim countries with the following question, "Is the secret of the Almighty God not violated in connection with the exploration of space and the flight of man to the moon?" What can Muslim ideologists say on this issue?

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The Egyptian Sheikh said that there are no prohibitions in Islam, and therefore Muslims must master the space. Another theologian said even more specifically, "In Islam, there is one chapter in the Qur'an, Surah 17, called Al-Isra, which means "Night's Carrying". What is it about? It is a famous Muslim holiday, Miraj, the ascension of Muhammad to heaven. This legend, the Quran mentions, the exact same legend in relation to Christianity.

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At the place where Jesus was crucified, Muhammad came from Mecca to Jerusalem, and from there he ascended to heaven and spoke to God. But it happened so quickly, so suddenly, that even the wife of Muhammad did not know about it. It was so fast, that he did not even have time to cool his bed.

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It happened at night. Muhammad moved from Mecca to Jerusalem, from Jerusalem to heaven, and from Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified, he went up to heaven and returned back. And so they say. And a modern man can believe it. How did Muhammad succeed?

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1400 years ago there was no rocket, no plane, so he quickly ascended to heaven. But of course the question arises. So that the youth do not move away, they begin to cheat the theologian, to modernize. "How?" "We don't know," he says. "How did he rise? Physically or spiritually?" "Did he see in a dream, maybe? Or physically?"

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"From the point of view of Islam, it seems he rose physically. It was as usual." "But few people believe this." "Muslim ideologists bring several such facts, supposedly." (speaking in foreign language)

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(speaking in foreign language) [RUSSIAN] She writes that she had never seen a prophet rise to heaven. And then another theologian discusses it with her. "How could she know Aisha? The prophet rose to heaven before he married Aisha."

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This question disappears. Then the Egyptian theologian makes a different example. "We won't break our heads", they say. "The human mind is so low that it can't know all the secrets of the Almighty." If a person was as smart as God, then what difference would there be between a man and God?

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That's why you can't argue. You can't argue, you just have to believe. But the main thing in this matter, in the Muslim holiday of Miraj, is the meaning of this holiday. And what is the meaning? Mirage proves that people should not lag behind,

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they should penetrate the heavenly space. This is just a call, we should understand it this way. The Egyptian Sheikh said that on the basis of the Quran it can be judged that we should not lag behind

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in the exploration of space by Godless Russia and the Americans. Modernization is not so easy in Muslim countries. The fact is that modernization is not always You can't force a modern man to do something about it,

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because society is not homogeneous. There are educated people, there are young people, and of course there are conservative people, there are illiterate people,

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so this modernization doesn't always happen. I'll give you a very interesting fact. You know, with the help of the Soviet Union, for 10 years, the high Aswan dam was being built in Egypt.

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It was a wonderful time for relations between Egypt and the Soviet Union, during the time of President Nasser, when the Aswan dam was built. And there were difficulties. During the Muslim fast, this is the summer period, when it is 50 degrees hotter, and people work from morning to evening in such a difficult area of the Aswan dam, and of course you can't smoke, you can't drink water, you can't eat from morning to evening.

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It was a long and hot day. I remember it was in 1962, when some people had their lips cracked. Can you imagine?

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50 degrees below zero, and you're working from morning till night. It was very difficult. And then the president of Nasser Abed found out about it. He came there himself.

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He was very attentive to this. And especially when it came to the object of friendship between the Soviet Union and the Arab world, He gave instructions that he would consult the chief Mufti on the matters of Islam, his advisor, and that something had to be done. And so the Egyptian Sheikh came to Aswan and he modernized it.

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How to do it? During the Muslim fast, people do not have the right to drink or eat during the whole month, and work cannot be stopped. So, we have to do something. How? It's the law of Islam. People have to follow the Muslim post. And it's impossible to leave it. So, the Egyptian sheikh tried to introduce the Islamic law in a new way, in relation to the post.

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What did he do? He came to Aswan and gathered these Arabs. 28,000 people worked there. It's a huge number of people. And he said that according to the laws of Islam, do you know who is exempted from the observance of fasting? There is such a law of Islam. A normal healthy person must observe fasting.

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But there are people who are exempted. Who are they? Well, first of all, children, pregnant women, women, breastfeeding children, old people, sick people. He also added "warriors", who are present during the battle. But this is not a military service, soldiers are not released from the post. If only soldiers are present during the battle, then people do not understand what the relationship of the Oswanian dam has to the military battle. The Egyptian theologian knew his business, he said that he was right, he said that the Aswan dam is a battlefield. People work here to increase the Muslim Egypt. And according to its meaning, the Aswan dam is a jihad, a sacred war.

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and you are free only if you are a Muslim. After the Muslim post you have to be double. Of course, the youth were happy. They were under 30 years old.

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They started drinking Pepsi-Cola, Coca-Cola, smoking, eating, and blessing God and Sheikh and President Nasser. It was good. [ Foreign Language ]

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[ Foreign Language ] That is, modernization is a very great concept. It was proven by the example of the Aswan dam. How can one modernize Islam? It all proves that in our time, without modernization, without adaptation, not a single religion can live. It all proves that in our time, without modernization, without adaptation, no religion can live.

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Modernization is a form of adaptation, a form of survival, a form of getting out of the crisis. This is the main thing that modernism means in religion, including what I told you about the Vistams. Thank you for your attention. Thank you, Vladimir.

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[APPLAUSE] We have a few questions for our listeners. Please, answer them. - Do we need questions? - Yes, please. First, I will tell you about Friday.

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Of all the numbers, seven days are consecrated. In all religions. Seven heavens, seven stars, seven days. In a word, it's all connected. Of course, for any religion, especially for world religions,

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a certain day is required. People must devote themselves completely to serving God. This is what exists in Christianity on Sundays, this is what exists in Judaism on Saturdays,

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And of course, in Islam there is a Friday. So why did they choose Friday? Friday in Arabic is "Djuma". "Djuma" means "people" in Arabic.

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"Djama'a" means "to gather". "Djama'at" means "people". and on Friday people must gather to serve God. This was the first concept.

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But then Muslim theologians found other facts, but this is not necessarily religious. On Friday Muhammad was born, on Friday the Quran was sent down,

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on Friday the day of the terrible judgment will begin, on Friday Mecca was conquered. This is not historical, not scientific, but it has psychological aspects in terms of religion. But the thing is that this Friday we have a lot of difficulties around this issue.

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I wouldn't say that it's not solved, but just people, apparently very simple people, even in our country, believers, don't always understand everything. There was a case in Central Asia, then in the Caucasus, I mean Dagestan. A man came up to me and said, "My son, you told me everything, you know Arabic, but I don't understand why our Soviet state, we love our state, we work, we do all this,

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(laughter) (speaking in foreign language) (Russian translation) [laughter]

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It seems to be a formal thing, I didn't even know. Then I started laughing from the bottom of my heart. I thought it was uncomfortable, the old man was looking at me. I said, "You know, father, you are talking completely wrong.

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The thing is, neither Sunday nor Saturday have anything to do with our Soviet reality, as a day of rest, has nothing to do with the Regeneration. In what sense? Let's take, on Sunday everyone is resting, regardless of who they are.

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Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, it doesn't matter. On Sunday, they are on vacation. On Saturday. Who told you that this is for Jews? I say, on Saturday, all the universities are working.

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Here in Dagestan, for example, the State University Institute is working. Yes, my son is studying there, or teaching, as he said. I say, all the children go to school, all the factories, factories that cannot be stopped, are working on Saturday and Sunday. [ Foreign Language ]

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When you come home and you buy a good carpet for 800 rubles, and you walk around in these dirty shoes, you also film the hallway. There is nothing surprising here.

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There are carpets, people are kneeling, cleanliness is an elementary thing. Our time of the program came to an end. But we forgot about its rapidity,

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which gathered in the hall of the Central Lecture of the Society of Knowledge. Questions, questions. [Russian] [MUSIC PLAYING]

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(phone ringing) (phone ringing) (phone ringing) (phone ringing)

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