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[no audio] ...there is Kevin Wayne. And a few minutes ago I managed to get through to him on the telephone. Kevin, you were there. Tell me what happened.

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Well, when the Pope was being driven back to Archbishop's House from the old town, from the cathedral and the church next door, he passed the crowd and turned a corner and suddenly people started shouting solidarity. As the Pope's card disappeared, the cry went up in other sections of the crowd and everybody started shouting it.

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Strangely enough, the police, who were there in large numbers in actual fact, though in a very relaxed way, didn't attempt to interfere. In fact, they moved away, possibly because the crowd was so large. Whereupon the crowd moved off, up this very famous old street which leads down to the old town. town. They moved away from the old town, filling the street from side to side, and they chanted

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slogans. They chanted for solidarity, for "Lechwo Węsa", for Zbigniew Bujak, who's the underground leader in hiding here in Warsaw. They called for an amnesty for political prisoners. They called for independence and for an end to the war, which is the name they give to martial law. And more often than not, they chanted "The Pope is with us". And when I last saw them, I had to leave to come

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back here when I last saw them there were still many many thousands on that street, passing side streets in which police were definitely present with lots of vehicles and all the rest of it, but the police were doing nothing. And the curious thing is I didn't know whether the police were not intervening either because the Pope was here or because the crowds

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were too large. What has Polish television or radio said about this? Well just not many minutes ago they said that after all the celebrations were finished and the Pope had gone off to Archbishop's House a small group of people trying to disturb the peace prevailing in central Warsaw obviously in an attempt to provoke

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intervention by the forces of order but thanks to the attitude taken by the forces of order that apparently it did not happen. Kevin you're obviously have to guess to answer this but do you think this is going to set the tone for the visit demonstrations against the government?

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>> I hesitate to answer that because many people hope that there is not going to be any serious trouble. But at least the presence of the Pope has produced a situation in which people on the streets have actually repeated their demands out loud, something they haven't been allowed to do for 19 months now. >> Kevin Ruane, reporting from Warsaw just before the program began.

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Now what that demonstration seems to show is that all concerned in this visit are involved in a daunting balancing act. The Pope himself, the Polish Church, the Communist government, and not least 36 million not easily predictable Poles.

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For the Pope and his Church, it's a question of how to speak up for ideals and objectives which the state regards as counter-revolutionary. His people will be looking to him for comfort and guidance. He has to provide these, but he has to do it without unduly raising their expectations

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or society's temperature. Now, whether he did those things in 1979, when he was last in Poland, is a matter of judgment. But he certainly created the mood that led to solidarity

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and later to active resistance to state power. Now, the government hopes that the Pope's visit will have a calming effect, will induce what it calls reconciliation at home, and enhance its legitimacy in the West.

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It is hinted that if all goes well, the government may end martial law. But while the government can control the Pope's movements, it cannot censor his speeches or determine what interpretation people put on his words.

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Nor can anybody be sure how millions of Poles will be affected by the experience of being allowed once again to assemble in the presence of a man they regard as their spiritual and their national leader.

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The Pope arrived at Warsaw Airport in a chartered Italian jet flying the flags of Poland and the Vatican. It was a restrained affair as papal arrivals go, admission by ticket only,

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and grey-suited government officials in charge of the welcome ceremonies. But the first to meet the Pope was Cardinal Glemp, the primate of Poland,

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who spent several minutes inside the aircraft before the Pope came down the steps. (choral music) By now a familiar gesture,

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but this the Pope said later was a kiss of peace, of peace for Poland, my country. At the head of the official receiving line, a long-serving president of Poland,

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Professor Henryk Jablonski. Even among the VIPs, the security was heavy. Plainclothesmen several times got in the way of the government's television cameras.

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According to protocol, the Pope is the visiting head of the Vatican State, and as such, he then reviewed an inter-service guard of honor. The commander of the guard addressed the Pope

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"This is your holiness." And at this point, the Warsaw radio commentator reminded his listeners that during his previous visit to Poland in 1979, the Pope had twice paid tribute to the military,

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praising the bravery of Polish soldiers on many occasions in the country's history. The arrival speeches all bore signs of extremely careful drafting. said the Pope had come on a pilgrimage,

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now made possible by normalization. But the Polish crisis had not yet been completely overcome. Neither had the divisions in society. He hoped the visit would increase cooperation

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between church and state, and that the Pope would help to bring peace to Poland. I would like to thank Professor, the Chairman of the Council of State, for the words of welcome,

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spoken on behalf of the state authorities of the Polish People's Republic. In reply, the Pope said pointedly that he'd hoped to come to Poland last year, and he thanked the authorities for making his visit possible now. He spoke at length about the suffering of the Polish people,

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both in history and at present. And he spoke, too, of his need to be close to those who suffer. I cannot, he said, visit all the sick, the imprisoned, and the suffering.

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But I want them to know that I am with them. After the speeches and handshakes with senior members of the Polish Roman Catholic Church, the pope walked briefly through a crowd.

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[CHILDREN SINGING] The crowd seemed warm and friendly, but there were no signs of high emotion. A few people held up placards showing the names of towns

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from which they'd come as delegates. And sharp-eyed Polish viewers may have noticed a placard the cameramen almost managed to avoid, a message of welcome

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from the union of actors closely resembling the Solidarity logo. Finally, the Pope boarded his celebrated Pope-mobile, now equipped, as the Polish commentator told his audience, with bulletproof glass and an outside platform

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for bodyguards. The vehicle carried him to Warsaw itself and to his first public meeting, a mass in Warsaw Cathedral. There were big crowds on the way into Warsaw,

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but the motorcade traveled at such a speed that the people had little chance to get more than a glimpse of the Pope. The cathedral service was a mass for the late Polish primate,

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Cardinal Wyszynski, who died in 1981 while the pope was recovering from the wounds he sustained during the assassination attempt in Rome. Several times during his sermon, the pope

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was applauded by the congregation. There was applause when he mentioned the diaries Cardinal Wyszynski kept while he was in prison. That was during the Stalinist days.

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There was more applause when he spoke of his feelings for those who've tasted the bitterness of disappointment, of suffering and humiliation, of loss of dignity, and deprivation of freedom."

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And there was applause again when the Pope quoted the 19th century Polish poet Swarowcki, "Let the cry of my country be my cry." The Pope added, "The late cardinal

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was spared by providence the sad events associated with the 13th of December, 1981." That, of course, was the date of the imposition of martial law. In the past few weeks, the very few leaders of the Solidarity Underground

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who have managed to evade the security police have been debating the pros and cons of the Pope's visit and issuing statements. From what they've said, it appears that just like the government, they have mixed feelings and are waiting to see

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whether the visit helps their cause or harms it. But on one thing, the two sides do seem to agree. the Pope's crowds should show restraint and avoid any clashes. Last night, the underground leaders made a brief clandestine broadcast

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in which Bujak, the Warsaw underground leader, put out an appeal that was very soon drowned out by music from a jamming transmitter. We welcome you, Holy Father, without stopping our fight to release the imprisoned and for our freedom and human rights.

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Many people have been beaten, many have been imprisoned, and many lost their lives. But our spirit has not been broken, and therefore we can welcome you with dignity and pride.

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And you can also be proud of us. We'll gain support and strength from our work, from meeting you and from your words. The time that is coming will be most difficult for us,

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for solidarity. We'll have to face growing brutality of the security forces and their increasingly ruthless methods. (speaking in foreign language)

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- And that was the end of the underground transmission. The man the Polish government calls the former leader of the former Solidarity, Lech Wałęsa, is in the news as well.

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He's determined to meet the Pope in Czestochowa this weekend, but whenever he or his wife, Danusia, try to leave home in the family van, The plainclothes men try to go with them.

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Yesterday, Vawensa lost his temper. (speaking in foreign language) After the scuffle, Danusha abandoned her trip and the security police compromised

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by following the van in their own jeep. The government says there is no restriction on Vawensa's movements, but that he will be followed wherever he goes.

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As for Wałęsa, he says that escort or no escort, he'll pack his bags tomorrow afternoon and set off for the south in the hope of meeting the Pope. Polish television is expected to give the Pope's visit

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greater prominence than it did in 1979. Then it deliberately avoided too many shots of vast crowds. According to one poll that was there, it went to great lengths to get shots of little knots

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of five or six people, preferably people over about 80. This time coverage was not so good. This time coverage will be fuller, possibly as an inducement of the people to watch the Pope from their homes, and so form smaller crowds and reduce the impact of his visit.

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Peter. First open air mass by waving ban solidarity flags and chanting the Union's name, Solidarnosc. One banner got a special ovation, it said, "Holy Father, we love you," from the internees. knees. Earlier on the second day of his week in Poland, Pope John Paul told the military authorities

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they must bring in the reforms they agreed to in 1980. Lech Wałęsa was one of the signatories and today the authorities agreed that he'll be allowed to meet the Pope, though the government stressed that this was only at the Pope's request. Demonstrators chanting Lech Wałęsa's name jammed Warsaw streets late last night too, as Tim Hewitt describes in the first of our two reports

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from Poland. Last night thousands of people staged a pro-solidarity demonstration in Warsaw. For the authorities it was an uncomfortable start to the papal visit. According to some reports the demonstration was carefully planned. Many of those taking part had come from Gdansk. The police didn't intervene but as the crowd approached communist party headquarters

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reinforcements were brought in. With demonstrators once again facing police on the streets It made for a worrying prelude to today's meeting between John Paul and General Jaruzelski. This morning John Paul arrived for that meeting prepared to greet Poland's military ruler with due respect. It was the Pope who bowed on this occasion. He was ushered into Warsaw's Belvedere

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Palace, the general politely making way for the Polish primate Cardinal Glemp. John Paul was was introduced to members of the government, some merely nodding, others bowing, depending on their religious convictions. And then the Pope composed himself for the General's address, delivered from an appropriate

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distance. There were to be no surprises and certainly no concessions. General Jaruzelski talked of continuing normalisation and an early end to martial law, all being well. The Pope seemed deep in thought. first speech over, another display of courtesy. But the General did look rather put out as

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the Pope referred directly to the agreement signed in 1980 after Solidarity was born. He said he hoped the principles of those agreements would gradually be put in effect, to spare, as he put it, the sufferings of so many sons and daughters of the nation. It was at a private meeting later that General Jaruzelski agreed to the meeting between the Pope and Lech Wałęsa.

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So Lech Wałęsa will see John Paul. He emerged triumphant from the Gdansk shipyard this afternoon. For the shipyard workers who cheered him today and the millions of others who joined Solidarity, that meeting will be seen as a papal blessing, not only for Wałęsa himself, but also the movement he once led. In Warsaw this afternoon, half a million Poles clogged the streets on their way to the first big event of the papal tour,

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The last time the Pope was here he travelled unprotected in an open car, but so much has changed. Not the scale of the crowds, for these waiting were so numerous that they filled an entire park outside the stadium in which the Mass was to be held. Denied free assembly under martial law, mere attendance was at least a reminder of what had been underlined by the first papal trip here, trip here, that if enough Poles gathered in one place, they could do as they wished, whatever

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the authorities might prefer. Inside the stadium, still more people. The Pope was witnessing something which both assassins and the authorities had almost made impossible.

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A massive papal event inside the Eastern Bloc. Illegal solidarity banners. Believe solidarity, love solidarity, they read. The faces in the crowd seemed at times confused.

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Some argue that the old have seen it all before, others that there are still possibilities for change for future generations. As in all his speeches so far,

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the Pope was again outspoken. The crowd rarely reacted strongly, but when he mentioned his sharing of their suffering, they did.

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(audience applauding) And he asked for restraint. Some were much less restrained outside, shouting solidarity slogans and hurling victory signs in the air, a small and determined display in a massive crowd.

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For those of us who witnessed that first emotion-filled visit here four years ago, the contrast today is acute. The atmosphere of hope that that visit inspired has been replaced by a sense almost of apathy and of defeat. It is as if these people are waiting for the Pope somehow single-handedly to roll back the reverses they've suffered in the months since then. John Snow, Newport 10, with the Pope in Waterloo.

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[music] Italy in spring. The gardens of the Pope's summer residence of Castel Gandolfo just outside the city of Rome. It's here that in preparing for his return to Poland, the Pope has walked weighing the constantly changing developments in his homeland. He has stressed that the suffering of the Polish people has lain very heavily on his mind,

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particularly in the months since the declaration of martial law. [birds chirping] Though some have wondered whether Poland doesn't play too great a part in his papacy, others see it as the key to the value of his worldwide appeal.

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[bells ringing] 6.30 every morning finds him in his private chapel high in the Vatican at prayer. They say it's in these moments that his thoughts return to Krakow, his Polish home, his roots, and the consuming faith which drives him. But each day he brings to his chapel a few chosen worshippers and celebrates the mass in their tongue.

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My brothers and sisters, to prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries, let us call to mind our sins. The service over, the business of the day, starts with a Polish breakfast served by Polish nuns. There are invariably guests in attendance. Today, Cardinal Kroll from the United States. He was born in Krakow and has been a friend of the Pope's for many years.

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They regularly discuss Poland. The Pope used to be able to keep in daily touch with his friends in Poland by phone, but during martial law, communications have faltered. After breakfast, it's to his desk in his study, which also serves as his bedroom.

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Twice his attempts to return to Poland have been thwarted, once by an assassin, once by the Polish authorities. But now the visit is on, and he meticulously handwrites every speech in Polish, underlining the points he wants to stress.

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Until now, his key pronouncements on Poland have had to be saved for his regular Sunday appearances at his study window above St. Peter's Square. But now he's on his way to deliver his message in person. It was a message eagerly awaited in Poland,

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and for the church a pilgrimage which could only reinforce an already powerful position. Out in the country, the Polish people were walking to see the Pope. Already, the victory signs of solidarity were in evidence. In Poland, the dividing line between religious faith and political aspirations is often a thin one.

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For the military government, whose crisp guard of honour was on hand at the airport to greet John Paul, his visit was fraught with dangers. It could lend respectability to the regime, but perhaps also inspire a renewed spirit of opposition. The faces of those awaiting the Pope gave little away.

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The older generation certainly seem almost resigned to suffering. But despite the widespread hopelessness caused by martial law, there does remain here a belief that sooner or later things will change. And finally, the man who might generate that change had arrived.

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The Polish Pope was home, his plane nosing its way around Warsaw's militarized airport. It had been four years since John Paul was last here, a traumatic period for Poland. Within a year of his departure in 1979, solidarity was born, its millions of members enjoying briefly a heady optimism, suddenly swept away by martial law.

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There were those now who wanted to believe that somehow John Paul could right all the wrongs. For many, the wait for his return had been all too long. but for others, tensions of a more immediate kind. Then the wait was over.

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[singing] (triumphant music) As the Vatican and Polish anthems were played, the Pope was unable to disguise his emotions.

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And then head bowed, he faced the guard of honor. Others were not lost in private thought, the security men with their American-style earpieces ever alert.

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and heading the Papal motorcade, Poland's anti-terrorist squad scouring the crowd. But today the only things being thrown were flowers to line the route. It was a brisk procession along the six miles to the city centre. As they swept into Warsaw, the crowd swelled and so did the emotions.

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This was the real papal arrival far from the stiff airport formalities. John Paul was with his people, hundreds of thousands of them. As the road opened in his wake, they surged forward to be near him. In Castle Square, a peal of bells, a carpet of flowers and an expectant crowd.

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And rising from that crowd, a sea of solidarity victory salutes. Near too, a fluttering solidarity banner from Gdansk greeted with applause. Predictably the militia were not far away, gathering in force but without the familiar shields and batons.

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On this occasion the signs of defiance could go unchallenged. The anti-terrorist squad heralded the Pope's arrival. A military cameraman captured the moment for posterity or perhaps future reference. Either way, the film will be viewed with discomfort.

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The cry is "Solidarnos", solidarity. (crowd chanting) And so any doubts about how they'd greet the Pope were dispelled.

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It was this the authorities had always feared. John Paul shared the feelings of the crowd, he wasn't showing it. (crowd chanting)

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But as he made his way to the altar of Warsaw Cathedral, he had with him a sermon containing a blunt message for Poland's rulers. He spoke of those tasting the bitterness of disappointment, humiliation and suffering. People whose dignity had been trampled, whose freedom taken away.

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[Russian] [Applause] It was applauded by the congregation, censored by the official press. [Applause]

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So now, barely three hours after the Pope had set foot in his homeland, two things were clear. He would not mince his words and his followers too would make their feelings plain. Back in Castle Square there was another name on their lips, Lech Wałęsa. And then suddenly it became a demonstration, upwards of 10,000 people in what appears to

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have been an organized protest. They made for Communist Party headquarters where the police line the road but on this special night did not react. The following morning the motorcade looked even more ominous. Such was the level of security that the Pope was invisible but he was there among the forbidding

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black cars being hurried by to meet General Wojciech Jaruzelski. There were so many vehicles it was no wonder the man on traffic duty at Warsaw's Belvedere Palace seemed suddenly panic-stricken. It was to be John Paul's first meeting with Poland's military ruler, the man who introduced

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martial law 18 months ago. The Pope treated him with due respect. Inside an eager press, Polish and foreign, this was perhaps the moment of greatest propaganda value from the visit.

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But as church and state separated for the formal speech-making, they seemed almost to be taking their corners. General Jaruzelski went first. It seemed a familiar theme, references to continuing normalisation and, given the right conditions, an early end to martial law. The Pope appeared lost in his own thoughts.

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The first address over, a moment of courtesy. But General Jaruzelski did not look comfortable as the Pope talked of the agreement signed with Solidarity in Gdansk in 1980 and the need for their gradual implementation. Later, the two held private talks, running more than an hour over the Pope's schedule.

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The session was officially described as solemn. Frosty seems more accurate. But at this meeting, one thing was agreed. The Pope could meet Lech Wałęsa, the man from Gdansk, who'd been attracting no small measure of attention himself.

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In Gdansk, 200 miles to the north, a rather sorrowful look to the decorations to mark the papal visit, a fair reflection on the feelings of the people. There's disappointment here that Gdansk is not on the Pope's schedule.

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It's said the authorities wouldn't permit it. But they do have their motorcades. The gesture is hardly papal, but last week Lech Wałęsa seemed to be attracting as much security as John Paul himself. Since the controversy over his meeting with the Pope intensified, the militia have been following him everywhere, right to his front door.

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For the Wałęsa children it's a familiar sight, even though officially their father remains a private citizen. The police were even on the staircase to the family apartment, checking documents of visitors. Inside, television pictures of the Pope and the Wałęsers providing an attentive audience. On Friday, shades of 1980, as the Gdansk shipyard workers gathered.

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And when Lech Wałęsa emerged, he was jubilant. The authorities had finally relented. He could see the Pope, although this evening that meeting still hasn't taken place. These scenes may have worried the authorities more than any papal meeting.

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Valencia again the shipyard hero. That night the Solidarity banner welcomed the Pope as he drove to his first big open air mass in a Warsaw sports stadium. The crowd outside was enormous, and what was to greet John Paul inside as he passed under

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a giant Polish eagle, equally impressive. [MUSIC PLAYING] (audience applauding) (audience applauding)

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(audience applauding) (audience applauding) (dramatic orchestral music) He had made for the one long lap of honour before disappearing out of view to change

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his robes for the Mass and his first real address to the people. Such an occasion demands an appropriate supporting cast and the priests were duly gathered, row upon row. Before the Pope, a long, slow climb to an altar in what would once have seemed the unlikeliest

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of settings. This stadium was built in the Stalinist 50s to mark the first ten years of Polish communism. Conceived by a man who could surely never have dreamt it would one day be used to celebrate the presence of a Polish Pope.

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Those inside could see him high above them on a huge wooden altar. It was clearly visible to those outside as well. Any doubts about how many would be able to join the Pope and the had-been fears it might not be easy were now dispelled.

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A crowd stretching as far as the eye could see. People clinging precariously to whatever vantage point they could find. John Paul referred again to events since August 1980 when Solidarity began. "I too have lived deeply the experience of those years," he said.

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And as he strode down the football stadium terraces, they sang Stolat, "May you live a hundred years." [Singing] Afterwards, they poured into the center of Warsaw, a route passing the Communist Party headquarters. The militia, mindful of events of the night before, were gathered in strength.

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Their presence unnecessary on this occasion, but a reminder nevertheless of the realities of present-day Poland. Czestochowa's massive bells summoned the faithful to join the Pope in the place where the central purpose of his journey lies. For this is the monastery and basilica of Jasna Gora. The place is regarded as the holiest in Poland and it's dedicated to Our Lady of Czestochowa, the Black Madonna.

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Her mysterious dark portrait hangs inside the basilica. The Pope was coming to celebrate the 600th anniversary of its arrival here. The picture is credited with miraculous powers and to any Polish Catholic is of mystical significance. That the paraphernalia of suspended martial law should lurk beyond the monastery walls as worshippers flocked towards Jasnogora

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underlined the added significance of the event. Truckloads of militiamen had been drafted in. The mere possibility of a meeting between the Pope and Lech Walesa had ensured that there was even more to all this than the anniversary. But it was in the Shesterhove's Cathedral that a hint of what was to come began to develop.

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Until yesterday, despite brave protests and crowds, the pure emotion of that first papal visit four years ago had not been rekindled. But within minutes of his arrival here, we saw him as he had been then. [chanting] Outside, more children waited for him to make his own progress to Yasnagora.

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[chanting] At last it was underway, motorcading a mile across Shesterhover from the cathedral to the monastery, police facing inwards between crowd and pope. Despite orders that rooftops and windows should be cleared, there were plenty up there looking down,

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and the trees were positively sprouting with humans. The monastery was now in view. The Black Madonna's anniversary should have been last year, but the Polish crisis was such that the Pope had had to declare it a movable feast.

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By now, the enthusiasm which had infected all who saw him when he came here four years ago was beginning to grow again. [crowd chanting] solidarity V signs and Christian crosses

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suddenly he was there, red splashed on green so that even the most distant eyes would see him the day was building into a crescendo of excitement the militia tracks, the huge police presence outside the mass

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was for a moment of no consequence [applause] Even if from the high altar they could still be seen on the fringes here. Even before the mass had started they were having to carry people out

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overcome by the mere arrival of the Pope. [applause] setting the flavor of the scene the occasional illegal solidarity banner anyone who carries one risks five years in jail for doing so

00:36:16.900 - 00:36:39.740

but for a few moments the pope now devoted himself to the spiritual purpose of his journey inside the shrine in which the black madonna's picture hangs at prayer 90 percent of poles are baptized catholics half of them are practicing and believe fervently in in the picture and its powers.

00:36:39.740 - 00:36:49.700

Their traditional Catholicism embraces the idea of modern day miracles, that somehow solidarity will survive, that life will change here radically for the better.

00:36:49.700 - 00:37:03.960

Those are miracles that more than a few still believe. It was the word solidarity that he was to use later outside for the first time. He called for human solidarity with those in detention here,

00:37:03.960 - 00:37:20.980

those who through their beliefs have lost their jobs. Three days into this trip, the crowd finally went wild in response. [crowd chanting] A chance for a mixture of everything.

00:37:20.980 - 00:37:43.460

Praise for him, for solidarity, and some abuse for the security men in the wings. They begged him to stay longer, but after two hours he told them he really couldn't. [crowd chanting] But we had seen the Pope as he used to be before he was shot.

00:37:43.460 - 00:38:08.140

We had heard them as we had heard them before the assault on Solidarity. (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) [MUSIC]

00:38:08.140 - 00:38:45.980

(singing in foreign language) [music] They were still there 12 long hours later this morning. Same people, same place, same Pope, another mass.

00:38:45.980 - 00:39:03.980

And the after effects of last night's emotions still there. The interminable Polish rain had done nothing to dampen their spirits and even a banner or two managed to poke through the brollies. Polish television coverage of the visit has been strictly controlled,

00:39:03.980 - 00:39:25.980

although there was a live transmission of the Pope's speech today in which he referred again to freedom, national sovereignty, and the right of people to determine their own future. Then the sound was cut during an anthem which has taken on a political significance. But this time the apparent censorship didn't work.

00:39:25.980 - 00:39:58.820

Sound was restored, precisely on the anthem's last offending line, "God, give us back a free homeland." [Music] So the papal pilgrimage has reached its halfway point. The authorities had hoped, perhaps unrealistically, for a purely spiritual celebration of his presence,

00:39:58.820 - 00:40:18.260

but the prayers have inevitably been mixed with emotions of a different kind. The spirit of solidarity has been in evidence everywhere. It may amount to no more than an opportunity for the people to vent their feelings in the safety of great numbers. No reason yet to suppose that the Pope can generate the reforms so many hope for.

00:40:18.260 - 00:40:51.780

But this has been a personal pilgrimage too. The security shield has been moved aside to let the to see the Pope come face to face when he can with his people. To pray at the tomb of his old friend, Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski. To embrace the children of Poland.

00:40:55.780 - 00:41:26.360

and simply to be among his millions of followers in the land he loves so deeply. [music] [ Music ] (choral music)

00:41:26.360 - 00:42:06.880

[Music] unrest during the papal visit. A government spokesman said further demonstrations might delay the lifting of martial law. But as our Europe correspondent Tim Sebastian reports, the Pope has defended the church's right to

00:42:06.880 - 00:42:27.480

speak out on the question of trade unions. The vision and memory of solidarity have been with the Pope since he arrived. It's that which has upset the authorities and could now lead to a serious row with the church. The The government spoke today of attempts to bring politics into the visit and incite unrest.

00:42:27.480 - 00:42:44.240

Officials criticised the Church for not preventing it. They warned again that demonstrations could delay the lifting of martial law. The warning clearly found no echo with the Pope. His speeches today were the toughest yet.

00:42:44.240 - 00:43:01.640

He spoke of society's acute need to hear the truth. He referred to beatings of the young and the weak. Most importantly, he told the country's leaders, trade unions are part of the Church's pastoral work, a line that puts him in direct conflict with the government.

00:43:01.640 - 00:43:15.680

But if the state is not enjoying the visit, the people appear to be. John Paul II has been saying what many of them have been feeling. They'd looked forward to the visit, the only thing they'd looked forward to for a long time.

00:43:15.680 - 00:43:28.080

The Pope has been just three days in Poland, three days of controversy and outspokenness, and the government is showing signs of impatience. While John Paul II is free to do what he wants, his followers aren't,

00:43:28.080 - 00:43:40.080

and the government expects church officials to pass on that message. That's going to be difficult, for the Pope will run into more controversy when he meets with the Pope. - Are you passing familiarity with the issue at hand? - I have.

00:43:40.080 - 00:44:02.040

I assume you have something to say in defence of Operation Big Broom. I would say that, given the existing circumstances... He has been visiting, and is going to visit, a number of cities that at various times have erupted in violent demonstrations against the government.

00:44:02.040 - 00:44:17.040

Today he held open-air masses in two of those cities, Poznan and Katowice, and if the government expected him to tone down his speeches lest he should over-excite the multitude, it must have been disappointed. The crowds, however, showed considerable self-discipline.

00:44:17.040 - 00:44:27.720

There were some solidarity banners, there were frequent outbursts of applause, and the usual forest of hands raised in V signs. But in both cities the crowd behaved impeccably.

00:44:27.720 - 00:44:41.700

The Pope began his day in Poznan, the scene of the first post-war rising of Polish workers in 1956. That began as a protest against high food prices, and it developed into a march on the local headquarters of the government,

00:44:41.700 - 00:44:55.020

the party, and the secret police. and when the riot was crushed several days later, at least 60 people had been killed. 25 years later, after Solidarity was formed,

00:44:55.020 - 00:45:08.520

Poznan was allowed to raise a monument to its dead in the city square in which most of the shooting took place. Two stone crosses joined at the base. On one cross, the date 1956.

00:45:08.520 - 00:45:23.180

On the other, all the dates of subsequent protests-- 1968, 1970, 1976, and 1980. Among those present at the dedication, the solidarity leader Lech Wałęsa.

00:45:23.180 - 00:45:32.620

Today, the pope's route took him at high speed on a detour that avoided the square. But if the authorities could determine his movements, they couldn't censor his speech.

00:45:32.620 - 00:45:45.980

As the crowd waved small wooden replicas of the cross in the city square, he told them that he, too, knelt in homage before the cross. This was also the first speech in which the Pope spoke

00:45:45.980 - 00:45:57.980

of the Polish farmers' long and finally successful struggle against collectivization. Mentioning by name the farmers' branch of the banned union, rural solidarity, he recalled the support

00:45:57.980 - 00:46:09.480

the Church had given to the farmers and told them to keep the spirit of the union alive. From Poznan, the Pope flew to Katowice, once a Communist Party stronghold.

00:46:09.480 - 00:46:35.480

And there he found waiting for him as big a crowd as he's seen anywhere on his tour, well over a million people. On the skyline, the lift shafts of the Burj Eqq mine, where several miners were killed when riot police broke up a strike

00:46:35.480 - 00:46:56.480

called to defy martial law the week before Christmas in 1981. The Pope referred to the loss of those lives in his speech today. And he added that there had been no bloodshed in 1980 when Solidarity was born. This led him into a ringing defence of workers' rights.

00:46:56.480 - 00:47:10.480

Of their right to strike, he said, "Man is not willing to work when he cannot see that his work has a purpose." and of the right to form unions, the Pope said, "This is a question of a people's right of free association,

00:47:10.480 - 00:47:22.480

"a right given to man by God, "not by the state, whose only duty it is to protect that right." ...conquered over the centuries, and it has changed hands more times than even Poles can remember,

00:47:22.480 - 00:47:33.480

except that, as every Polish schoolboy knows, Silesia was Polish in the Middle Ages, became German around the 17th century, and was not restored to Poland until the end of World War II,

00:47:33.480 - 00:47:47.480

when millions of Germans were forcibly transported westward. Today the Pope recalled these events, and as the Polish government undoubtedly hoped he would, gave his blessing to that rearrangement of Poland's western frontier.

00:47:47.480 - 00:47:57.500

He also called for Polish-German reconciliation and, predictably enough, drew parallels between Silesia's tribulations in the past at the hands of invaders

00:47:57.500 - 00:48:10.100

at the hands of domestic authority today. At St. Anna's Mountain, an important place of pilgrimage for the past 500 years, the Pope was welcomed by women and girls in Silesian costume.

00:48:10.100 - 00:48:28.100

Many of them had come from surrounding villages. Others had come from industrial towns. A delegation of miners. steelworkers from Apollo,

00:48:28.100 - 00:48:43.100

and a procession of coal miners wearing the traditional uniform of their craft. After the First World War, at the start of the 1920s,

00:48:43.100 - 00:48:54.600

the mountain was used as a base by Polish partisans in three separate uprisings against the German administration of Silesia. Many were killed on the mountainside

00:48:54.600 - 00:49:08.600

in a 17-day battle with German troops. The rebellions led to a series of plebiscites. Silesia was partitioned between Germany and Poland, and the mountain became a symbol of national resistance.

00:49:08.600 - 00:49:22.600

Today, the Pope paid tribute to those who had laid down their lives in that insurrection, and, he said, to those who had been killed in more recent days. To his local audience, this may have been a reference

00:49:22.600 - 00:49:33.600

to a pro-solidarity demonstration in the nearby city of Wroclaw last August that was put down by the Polish militia. News of that protest reached the West much later,

00:49:33.600 - 00:49:55.200

and with it, this brief piece of film. In Wroclaw today, using a racetrack on the city outskirts to accommodate another million-strong crowd, the Pope devoted a sermon to what he called

00:49:55.200 - 00:50:08.500

the Polish people's hunger for justice. This hunger, he said, had been expressed in recent years in a particular way. It must not be suppressed, for the whole future of the nation

00:50:08.500 - 00:50:36.720

depended on justice, on mutual trust, and on truth. He ended with a message of hope. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Once again, there were solidarity banners in the crowd.

00:50:36.720 - 00:50:50.560

The one in the foreground reads, "The Prisoners of Martial Law." After the rally, there was a tiny demonstration by perhaps 100 young people in the center of the town. The riot squad was on the scene in minutes, and the protest was quashed.

00:50:50.560 - 00:51:07.560

Because the city of Wroclaw is tense and a stronghold of the Solidarity underground, the authorities had ruled out any motorcades. Instead, the Pope travelled by helicopter on a journey of only five miles. Tomorrow, he visits the university town of Krakow

00:51:07.560 - 00:51:22.560

and the steel town of Nowohuta, the scene of demonstrations as recently as last May. In Warsaw, meanwhile, the government has made its first official response to the Pope's repeated criticism of martial law and the suppression of trade union rights.

00:51:22.560 - 00:51:37.560

It came in an interview given by the Deputy Premier, Rakowski, in given front-page treatment in the newspapers. Without mentioning the Pope directly, Rakowski singled out the special address to young people last week, in which the Pope complained that they lacked prospects for a future.

00:51:37.560 - 00:51:50.060

Rakowski's reply, "He who addresses youth should remember that millions of young people relate their future to socialism and want more socialism in their lives. The government's other counter

00:51:50.060 - 00:52:01.560

to the Pope's religious and political offensive is, of course, its control of the media. Polish television, for example, is being highly selective in its coverage of the Pope's tour.

00:52:01.560 - 00:52:13.580

This morning's transmission from Wroclaw, for example, was brusquely cut off and replaced by what looked like a travelogue. And in its daily coverage, such as it is,

00:52:13.580 - 00:52:25.580

Polish television prefers to show crowds from behind, enduring their more inanimate moments. There is evidence, too, of occasional disagreement between the cameraman and the director

00:52:25.580 - 00:52:33.580

controlling what is transmitted, giving the viewer no more than a glimpse of the odd solidarity banner or of the pro-solidarity gesture

00:52:33.580 - 00:52:44.580

that dates right back to the Union's formation three years ago in Gdansk. As for Polish television commentaries on these events, they tend to concentrate on the number of missing children

00:52:44.580 - 00:52:57.580

and on the total of those requiring first aid at every papal rally. The Pope seems assured of massive crowds tomorrow. For his arrival in Krakow tonight, crowds lined the city 30 deep in places.

00:52:57.580 - 00:53:14.580

They threw flowers in his path and they chanted solidarity slogans. Finally, the Vatican announced tonight that the Pope is exclusively... who struggled against the Russian occupation in the last century. The Vatican has stressed that the Pope sees this as a non-political pastoral visit.

00:53:14.580 - 00:53:34.580

But the political impact has matched the emotional, whatever was intended. One old lady, afraid of missing her one chance to receive communion from him, ran foul of both priests and security men. But it was after the mass that, despite a large police presence,

00:53:34.580 - 00:53:45.580

political demonstrations developed. No attempt was made to stop them, as they shouted "Solidarity" and "Lech Wałęsa". (crowd chanting)

00:53:45.580 - 00:53:55.080

It was Mr. Lech Wałęsa's van, meanwhile, that was the centre of attention at the opposite end of Poland in Gdansk. People arranged flowers on it as he prepared to leave,

00:53:55.080 - 00:54:10.580

at last for his meeting with the Pope. Mrs. Wałęsa was first out, smartened up their son. They left early this afternoon gave everyone the slip.

00:54:10.580 - 00:54:26.100

Amid mounting speculation outside the papal residence as to exactly where the Pope would meet Wałęsa, a Vatican spokesman told me tonight the meeting will not be in Kraków and will not be before tomorrow. John Snow, News at Ten, with the Pope in Poland.

00:54:26.100 - 00:54:46.660

For his last public appearance before tomorrow's departure, the Pope had chosen the steel town of Novohuta, a few miles from Krakow. Built in the Stalinist 50s, it was supposed to be an atheist community with no churches. Things have rather changed since then. Today, the statue of Lenin gazes at papal emblems, on this evening showing the Pope

00:54:46.660 - 00:55:13.560

has rather more followers. Their numbers were swelled by thousands of pro-solidarity supporters, some from as far afield as Gdansk and Warsaw. They were given a rapturous welcome. Then sudden excitement. As the papal motorcade arrived, the security men lost control for the first time on the visit. John Paul had come to consecrate Nova Huta's second church, St Maximilian, completed after more than ten years of wrangling with the authorities.

00:55:13.560 - 00:55:31.560

He avoided controversial issues on this occasion, but the response to him was overwhelming. "If you are with the Pope, the Pope is with you," he told them finally. And his Vatican banner was, as a big pro-solidarity demonstration began after the service. The militia mingled with the crowd but didn't intervene.

00:55:31.560 - 00:55:50.560

Protests of this size have been dispersed with great force by the police in Novohodovo. ...by the Polish government spokesman in Warsaw. And it was the spokesman who said it was the general who asked the church to arrange the meeting. Now so far both sides are refusing to tell outsiders what they talked about or even why they talked.

00:55:50.560 - 00:56:03.560

Also in Krakow tonight, the man the Polish government describes as the former leader of the former Solidarity, Lech Wałęsa. He left Gdansk today with a three-day leave pass and a shipyard in his pocket,

00:56:03.560 - 00:56:13.560

and he's to have a private meeting, just like the general, with the Pope tomorrow. This evening the Pope fell asleep in the middle of a conversation with his bishops.

00:56:13.560 - 00:56:27.560

Nobody could have been surprised. For him it was a long and highly emotional day. and he was back home in the city of Krakow. Krakow is more than 1,000 years old,

00:56:27.560 - 00:56:39.560

and it's one of the few Polish cities to have escaped serious damage during the war. Its university is the second oldest in Europe. During the war, the Germans closed it down,

00:56:39.560 - 00:56:48.560

but it carried on underground, and the pope, then a young quarryman, studied here for the priesthood. he became its archbishop,

00:56:48.560 - 00:56:56.560

and today his people gathered together to celebrate his homecoming. They came in bigger numbers than anybody could count--

00:56:56.560 - 00:57:12.560

2 million, as an estimate. Some say it's the biggest crowd that has ever assembled anywhere. Before the pope arrived,

00:57:12.560 - 00:57:26.560

the priest asked the crowd so as not to obscure the view, and most people responded to the appeal. The Pope himself found another opportunity

00:57:26.560 - 00:57:37.560

to draw a parallel between past conflicts and the present day. He formally beatified two soldier monks who fought in a 19th century uprising

00:57:37.560 - 00:57:50.560

against Russian rule. Both men, he told the crowd, and for them the rebellion was a stage on the path to holiness. Their faith, he said, had given them strength to overcome anything,

00:57:50.560 - 00:58:05.560

including the arrogant use of power. As the huge congregation dispersed, several thousand people formed a column carrying solidarity banners and shouting, "Come and join us today, the police won't beat us."

00:58:05.560 - 00:58:20.560

Eyewitnesses say it was a cheerfully defiant but not an aggressive crowd, and the security forces, massively outnumbered for once, did not intervene. From Krakow, the Pope went on to Nowa Huta,

00:58:20.560 - 00:58:33.560

the scene of one of his earliest brushes with authority. Nowa Huta was built in the 1950s on the Stalinist model as Poland's first socialist city. Churches were banned there,

00:58:33.560 - 00:58:45.160

and for years there were riots set up by the workers were removed by the police. Eventually, the government relented. And in 1967, the pope, as Cardinal Wojtyla,

00:58:45.160 - 00:59:03.040

dug the first trench of the church's foundations. Nowohuta's Lenin Steelworks has a workforce of 36,000, and almost all belonged to Solidarity. In 1982, an electrician was allegedly killed by the police.

00:59:03.040 - 00:59:12.400

For seven successive days and nights, demonstrators fought running battles with the police as they tried to defend the forest of candles outside the church the Pope had founded.

00:59:12.400 - 00:59:40.680

(crowd chanting in foreign language) But churches continue to be built in Poland under the present government, and in Nowohuta today the Pope was able to consecrate

00:59:40.680 - 00:59:51.680

the city's second church. Three more are under construction. "They are there," the Pope told the crowd, "because of your faith and your Christian solidarity."

00:59:51.680 - 01:00:06.680

Tonight's story is ending with a question to which we don't have an answer, everybody in Poland must be asking themselves tonight, why is the Pope having another and apparently unscheduled meeting with General Jaruzelski?

01:00:06.680 - 01:00:26.680

And, as I've just been asking our correspondent Kevin Ruane on the telephone to Krakow, what could the General have to say to the Pope unless he's about to make a concession? Well, one can't expect that from General Jaruzelski, but I know he was, I thought, expecting to see the Pope after tomorrow,

01:00:26.680 - 01:00:48.180

and it's the sort of move he would like to make, meeting at a momentous moment at the end of a tremendous visit in Waddle Castle. It has all the makings of a backdrop, you know, for some great development, but people simply don't know. It's a mystery, this meeting. It's a great surprise, and people are puzzled. And it could be nothing more than a 40-minute courtesy call, is it right?

01:00:48.180 - 01:01:02.260

I don't think so. They met, I gather, for, getting on for two hours, one hour, 40 minutes. I think they had something to talk about, as they had last week, which was an unprecedentedly long meeting. So I think they've really been talking about something serious.

01:01:02.260 - 01:01:28.580

Lots of people suspect it might be about whether the Pope will be seeing Lech Wałęsa. But people do point out, it's very odd, surely, that General Jaruzelski should consent to a meeting with the Pope late one night, and then the next day see the Pope meeting Lech who is a discarded, former solidarity leader, now treated and much maligned as a private person.

01:01:28.580 - 01:01:39.580

Putting him on the same level? Yes. But Kevin, you've watched this entire visit now. Do you think it's conceivable that the rumours that were being pushed around before the Pope arrived,

01:01:39.580 - 01:01:57.700

that there could be a concession on martial law, it might be lifted, could happen as a result of this visit, and that that is what Jaruzelski is telling the Pope? That is possible because General Jaruzelski always said that if the visit went well, there would be a better chance of lifting martial law.

01:01:57.700 - 01:02:13.140

But he has to make a decision himself because there have been demonstrations. He's always said there can be no lifting of martial law if demonstrations go on. There have been demonstrations, fairly large ones. Admittedly, while the Pope was here, the police took no action.

01:02:13.140 - 01:02:27.140

But that has perhaps proved that demonstrators are not necessarily, as they have been depicted, not necessarily out to smash windows or overturn the state. Kevin Ruane on the telephone from Krakow.

01:02:27.140 - 01:02:38.140

Apparently Polish television cameras were allowed to film the start and the end of that meeting between the Pope and Jaruzelski, but they haven't been released. Tomorrow the Pope will say a private mass

01:02:38.140 - 01:02:52.900

for the aides and servants of the Archbishop of Krakow, and he'll have some private meetings with Lech Wałęsa, among others. And then it's back to Rome and the peace and quiet of the Vatican. Well, let's catch up now with some of the rest of tonight's news.

01:02:52.900 - 01:03:08.700

And staying in the Eastern Bloc in Prague, the Mammoth Peace Conference there has continued to produce unofficial protests. Last night's demonstration, which began by calling for peace and ended with demands for freedom, was ultimately ended by baton-wielding riot police.

01:03:08.700 - 01:03:23.420

Today, a young member of the Charter 77 dissident group put up stickers on a wall close to observing TV cameras. It was also close to observing plainclothes police who promptly took the stickers down.

01:03:23.420 - 01:03:34.060

A small incident, another one involving two French protesters who wanted both east and west to disarm, the plainclothes police didn't approve. They disarmed both the protesters of their flag

01:03:34.060 - 01:03:47.140

and our camera's view of it all. Despite the presence of the police, the conference itself has not been censored, and the British CND criticism of both US and Soviet policy has not been met.

01:03:47.140 - 01:04:06.220

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Boost your business at Britain's biggest business to business exhibition at the Barbican Centre. Open from tomorrow to Wednesday the 29th of June. Make it your business to be there. After the news headlines, Seven Days, which this week reports on the Pope's visit to Poland, and Roy Hattersley talks about the leadership of the Labour Party.

01:05:07.920 - 01:05:32.120

You're watching Channel 4. And now the weekend's news headlines with Norman Rees from ITN. [Music] The PLO leader Yasser Arafat has been speaking at the International Peace Conference in Prague. He's accused Syria of planning to massacre Palestinian guerrillas who stayed loyal to him.

01:05:32.120 - 01:05:49.800

Reports from Lebanon's Beqaa Valley say rival Palestinian factions are on high alert after Mr. Arafat's expulsion from Syria yesterday. The American vice president, Mr. George Bush, has been the target of violent anti-nuclear protests on his arrival in the West German city of Krefeld.

01:05:49.800 - 01:06:15.840

Demonstrators threw stones which smashed the windows of some vehicles in his motorcade. Elsewhere in the city, riot police arrested 150 demonstrators after the attempted storming of a police station. The Vatican journalist who said Lech Wałęsa had no further role in Polish politics has left his job. Virgilio Levi, the deputy editor of the semi-official Vatican paper, "L'Osservatore Romano",

01:06:15.840 - 01:06:38.840

expressed his views in a front-page article yesterday. Now, he says, the article was not the official Vatican view, and that the Pope still supports the idea of solidarity. Cricket and the final of the World Cup between India and the West Indies at Lourdes is turning into a close match. India were all out for 183, with Shrikant, the top scorer, on 38.

01:06:38.840 - 01:06:56.840

In reply, the West Indies are 113 for 6, after 38 overs. Tennis and Britain's only women's seed, Jo Dury, is out of Wimbledon. She was beaten 7-6, 7-5 by Ida Pfaff of West Germany. But Virginia Wade has scraped through to the next round.

01:06:56.840 - 01:07:14.840

The first seed, Martina Navratilova and John McEnroe, both went through in straight sets. That's the end of this Channel 4 News Summary from ITN. Our next news on ITV is at 9.30. [Music]

01:07:14.840 - 01:07:29.840

And now a look at the weather prospects for tonight and tomorrow. Tonight Wales and the southern half of England will be mostly dry, but a little misty in places later. Northern England, Northern Ireland and Scotland will have a little rain, but the weather in Northern Scotland should become clearer and mainly dry.

01:07:29.840 - 01:07:47.760

Tomorrow East Anglia and Southern England will be mainly dry with some sunshine and it'll be fairly warm. warm. Wales, the Midlands, Northern Ireland, Northern England and Southern Scotland will have a little rain followed by brighter weather in places. Northern Scotland will be mostly dry with a little sunshine. And that's the weather.

01:07:47.760 - 01:08:15.000

This is Channel 4 and now a report on the Pope's visit to Poland and Roy Hattersley talks about the leadership of the Labour Party in seven days. [music] Good evening.

01:08:15.000 - 01:08:26.000

This week, the great battle for fundamental ideas and spiritual values which is joined in Eastern Europe. The second coming of the Pope to Poland, the meaning of his visit.

01:08:26.000 - 01:08:37.500

At home, the fight for the soul of the Labour Party. Roy Hattersley talks to Helene Heyman about how he would redeem it. The Pope's visit to Poland

01:08:37.500 - 01:08:49.500

has pushed all other events to the margin. The remarkable scenes of the tranquil, implacable figure among his own people are the eloquent evidence, continually renewed,

01:08:49.500 - 01:09:02.500

that the political settlement which divided Europe and the people of Poland are concerned. Their protest grows and does not diminish. They were crowds composed of workers

01:09:02.500 - 01:09:15.500

who will not cooperate with the workers' state and who live within the shadow of martial law. For the Soviet Union, freedom in Poland is equated with the collapse of the heavens.

01:09:15.500 - 01:09:29.500

But this week, Poland confirmed that freedom is what it's asking. It was a whole nation out on the roads and in the city squares, but a nation which has, in effect, gone underground.

01:09:29.500 - 01:09:46.000

The Pope preached moral, spiritual, and cultural regeneration to a people for whom the official ideology of the state is dead and rejected. [choral singing]

01:09:46.000 - 01:10:09.500

The pope did not just recite the litany of eternal truth and the old faith. "It is for the state to respond to the hunger for righteousness "in such a way that the whole nation will regain mutual trust," he said.

01:10:09.500 - 01:10:24.000

In the establishment of the West, it seemed, to secure the freedom Poland was promised and never gained at the Yalta Conference in 1945. The Polish right to sovereignty cannot be a matter of indifference,

01:10:24.000 - 01:10:38.000

particularly in Europe and America. Later, he would say in Katowice, the right to free association in the struggle for social justice is a right and not a favor to be granted by the state.

01:10:38.500 - 01:10:49.500

to the meaning and possible consequences of the pope's challenge. Professor Richard Pipes of Harvard University, who's on the satellite from Boston in the US,

01:10:49.500 - 01:11:01.500

was until recently President Reagan's advisor on East European and Soviet affairs. Professor Pipes, I wonder if you would agree that we in the West are still probably assimilating

01:11:01.500 - 01:11:11.200

this fact of a Polish pope and its significance. as the Pope got today, would you say? Millions. Millions of people, anyway.

01:11:11.200 - 01:11:20.320

Not only we are assimilating it, but so is Warsaw, and so is Moscow. It turned out to be very differently from what I think the authorities expected.

01:11:20.320 - 01:11:29.680

But do you think we should give or see it differently from the way Stalin, in that famous remark, so cynically saw it, how many battalions has the Pope got? Is it materially different, do you think?

01:11:29.680 - 01:11:40.040

Practically different? Well, vastly different, because of course, what we are talking about is the spirit of the people inside the communist camp.

01:11:40.040 - 01:11:51.080

And not only in Poland. Yesterday, there were demonstrations in Prague, for example, by young people who wanted peace and freedom and who clearly were inspired by the pope's visit.

01:11:51.080 - 01:12:02.620

And this is an imponderable but very weighty factor. Well, how do you think we should respond to it? How do you think President Reagan's administration, in particular, will respond to it?

01:12:02.620 - 01:12:23.460

what conclusions are justified from this point on as a basis for policy? Well, I am speaking, of course, as a private person, but my feeling is that it will be a very different reaction from the one the Polish government had anticipated. Some Polish government spokesmen had said that they believe that after the papal visit to Poland, it will

01:12:23.460 - 01:12:45.660

be very difficult for the United States to maintain its various sanctions and embargoes. But I think the effect is going to be the very opposite, because what the visit has shown is that the spirit of solidarity, which really is the spirit of Polish nationhood and the desire for independence, at least internally, is very much alive.

01:12:45.660 - 01:13:03.100

Now-- How firm, though, is the West when faced with that fact? Because I think, wouldn't you agree, there would be people who would look forward with relief to some apparent legitimacy for Jaruzelski's government in Poland to return to a more normal

01:13:03.100 - 01:13:27.460

situation. How firm is the West when it sees what has happened, do you think? I must say that I believe that the United States is somewhat firmer than most of its Western allies, particularly those in continental Europe. But the president has said last November that any liberalization measures on the part of the Polish government would be met with

01:13:27.460 - 01:13:51.280

a positive response from the United States. Now, I think what he meant was positive measures, concrete measures leading to reestablishment of normalcy. I did not think he meant a essentially public relations show from the point of view of the Polish government. So I think if you You're asking me whether I believe the United States government would be willing to start

01:13:51.280 - 01:14:06.500

taking some positive steps vis-a-vis the Jaruzelski government. I don't think that will happen simply on the basis of this papal visit. It will require more than that. Are there any actions which you feel that as a result of the Pope's visit, Jaruzelski

01:14:06.500 - 01:14:28.460

in Poland will now feel compelled to take, whether the Russians approve of it or not? I think that what you have in Poland and in Moscow is ambivalence. That is, you can make two arguments which really lead to opposite conclusions. One is that this show involving millions of Poles, a show of tremendous national unity,

01:14:28.460 - 01:14:46.520

requires some sort of concessions, which in order to govern Poland, in order to get the Polish economy going again. And you can draw the contrary conclusion and say this demonstrates that Jaruzelski's experiment with martial law was ineffective, that it has dissipated itself, and that one really

01:14:46.520 - 01:15:02.020

must crack down. And this would involve the removal of Jaruzelski and his replacement by somebody who is much more hardline. Yes, what do you guess yourself? Oh, I wish I knew. One always hopes that the rational solution would win out. I'm afraid

01:15:02.020 - 01:15:17.620

it may be the latter. That is, the speech of Andropov and the speech of Chernenko last week suggests... Just remind me of what they said. Well, what they said was, particularly Andropov, at the beginning of his speech, that the time

01:15:17.620 - 01:15:42.020

has come inside the Soviet Union to crack down on ideological deviations and to establish some kind of intellectual and ideological control. And then Gromyko in his speech also stressed the fact that the Soviet Union is the guarantor of Poland's adherence to socialism, all of which are code words, rather for a hardline

01:15:42.020 - 01:16:02.460

policy than for a reformist and reasonable policy. Yes, and we have the Pope himself saying that it cannot be a matter of indifference to either America or to Europe. Poland's rights to sovereignty cannot be a matter of indifference. Now that goes to the very roots of communist and Soviet power in Eastern Europe. Since Yalta, the

01:16:02.460 - 01:16:15.100

the whole block system is called into question. Now, how do you suppose the American administration will respond to that? Will we stand on the sidelines or become more involved in this?

01:16:15.100 - 01:16:24.180

You know, essentially what the US administration or the European governments can do vis-a-vis Poland is negative in nature. They can withhold credits.

01:16:24.180 - 01:16:39.660

They can, for example, withhold rescheduling the government to government debts, without which the Polish government cannot qualify for additional loans, which it desperately needs because it is so dependent on imports. And various other sanctions can remain in place.

01:16:39.660 - 01:16:59.860

My feeling is that though the pressures for forgiving Jaruzelski and making deals with Jaruzelski will be very strong, the Reagan administration will want something more concrete on the part of the Polish government, some sort of return to more normal conditions. Not a return necessarily to the pre-December '81 conditions, but something which would

01:16:59.860 - 01:17:17.340

indicate that it is entering into a dialogue with the population before some of the sanctions are lifted and more positive steps are taken. I simply don't believe that simply the willingness of the Arzerski government to entertain the Pope is sufficient for the sanctions to be lifted.

01:17:17.340 - 01:17:33.140

I'd like you to return, if you will, for a final thought to what you said at the very beginning. Poland and the Pope in Poland among his own people as merely a fire in a furnace, something which can be contained, or is it your view that this is an evolving situation which threatens

01:17:33.140 - 01:17:52.420

the whole Soviet position in Eastern Europe? My feeling is that the whole situation in Eastern Europe and even inside the Soviet Union is a kind of volcano. There are constant rumblings coming out. You don't know when an explosion will occur. And the only sensible solution for the Soviet government to take

01:17:52.420 - 01:18:12.180

is to allow a great deal of internal freedom in Eastern Europe while maintaining what it regards as its essential security interests. Now that is perfectly feasible, though it's not without risks from Moscow's point of view. But I think the alternative is infinitely more dangerous because there will be explosions. There will be explosions in Poland. There

01:18:12.180 - 01:18:23.960

will be explosions in other parts of Eastern Europe. And it seems to me entirely unreasonable to take the line that there is nothing wrong with Eastern Europe, which some more repression cannot cure. It just won't work.

01:18:23.960 - 01:18:34.960

Professor Peirce, thank you very much. So how in Poland itself might we measure the likely consequences of the Pope's visit in terms of the developing contest there between church and state,

01:18:34.960 - 01:18:44.960

between religious and secular values? Alexander Tomsky specializes in Polish affairs at Keston College in England, an institute which was set up in the 1960s

01:18:44.960 - 01:19:02.120

of religion in communist countries. If you had to distill the essence of what the pope said there, the moral and religious message that he took to Poland, what is it? I think that there were two twin themes of his visit.

01:19:02.120 - 01:19:13.760

One was freedom, and the other one was personal integrity. That, I think, would be the shorthand. What's the significance of that, though? It's such a common place to say that people must tell the truth,

01:19:13.760 - 01:19:41.100

she repeated several times, but what's the particular significance that you feel that has in that context? I think it has enormous significance which hasn't been properly assessed because our Western media tend to rationalize on a very superficial I think political plane. The real problem is how to read the no doubt coded language of the Pope against the background of a totalitarian state, totalitarian society in which the government tries to

01:19:41.620 - 01:20:03.320

sort of mesmerize the citizen into losing any sense of real identity, having no history, no sense of purpose, no sense of going anywhere. A citizen who doesn't believe that there are any political hopes, in fact, any hopes at all.

01:20:03.320 - 01:20:21.600

Now it is against this background that the Pope clearly speaks of truth. A life ridden with lies can be changed only if you stick to your personal convictions. Yes, you mentioned history there. Now, several times he made references to historical events,

01:20:21.600 - 01:20:39.600

which of course are not permitted to be discussed officially within the state, in the schools or broadcast or any other way. Indeed, indeed. This is incredibly important. The Pope's tour de force in Poland was all the time about historical, cultural, spiritual,

01:20:39.600 - 01:20:56.560

moral values. But curiously enough, this is all linked to a kind of separate nature of the nation and the state, something we don't often see here in the West. Namely, in the absence of politics, in the absence of political proper life in Poland,

01:20:56.560 - 01:21:07.920

it is the nation which must survive. And with that, it is the individual which must survive. So the historical consciousness, the references of the Pope to Garland Wyszynski's imprisonment, for instance,

01:21:07.920 - 01:21:17.120

uprising of 1956, and so on, even the Gdańsk agreements back in 1980, all that built up the nation in a sense. Yes.

01:21:17.120 - 01:21:26.260

The communists, would you agree, have lost the young generation in Poland. They had hoped to communize Poland, was certainly the Russian ambition at the beginning.

01:21:26.260 - 01:21:37.300

So what do you say is the reason that the speeches that he made about youth created such difficulty? Yes, indeed. I think that was the greatest difficulty for the government.

01:21:37.300 - 01:21:49.500

In fact, his speech to young people was the only one which was not allowed to be published at all, not even in a censored form. He was saying very clearly to young people, "I sympathize with you. I understand your predicament.

01:21:49.500 - 01:21:58.140

You often want to emigrate. You want to escape from life. But this is not the way. This would create an atomized society that the government really wants.

01:21:58.140 - 01:22:15.220

And the way out of this problem is not to stifle your conscience and be able to call the good and evil by its proper name. What are the measurable consequences, do you think, for the church itself? Because after the repression of Solidarity, the military coup,

01:22:15.220 - 01:22:31.620

and Jaruzelski and the army's takeover, Jaruzelski and the church appeared to accept this, would you agree, put himself forward as the only thing that stood between chaos, bloodshed, the Soviet invasion or deportation to Siberia, all of which have sound historical precedence for

01:22:31.620 - 01:22:49.920

the Polish nation. But what is, after the Pope's visit, what is the position about the church, would you say, and the regime? The position is very different, clearly. The Pope has strengthened the authority and the prestige of the church, which has been somewhat weakened. And we can read the remarks that

01:22:49.920 - 01:23:03.460

the Pope made in this context. He said to the Polish bishops, do not accommodate yourself at the expense of truth and justice. It is, again, the emphasis on truth, which is so important.

01:23:03.460 - 01:23:15.140

A truth spoken freely builds up the resistance of the individual and the nation. Well, now, the significance of that, I think, may be lost on an audience here, unless one actually

01:23:15.140 - 01:23:24.940

examines what it is he's saying. I mean, he's saying to the church, if I read what you say right, that they are to challenge the government, that they are not to make accommodations.

01:23:24.940 - 01:23:38.740

Well, this depends how you read it. The great Cardinal Wyszynski found a way in between two excesses or two extremes, one might say. On the one hand, he would make rapprochement, political adjustment,

01:23:38.740 - 01:23:47.560

or even sign certain compromises with the government. But it was a tactical war that the old Cardinal fought. I mean, it wasn't weakness or pessimism or resignation. No, it was actually a strength.

01:23:47.560 - 01:23:57.560

He played the same game as the communists. He would make this rapprochement, but he would, as one Polish commentator said recently, oppose the Sovietization of the daily life in Poland.

01:23:57.560 - 01:24:08.560

That's the key, I think. The ordinary citizen is all the time blackmailed into submission, and he loses his strength, his morale. He then begins to talk in a typical socialist double talk

01:24:08.560 - 01:24:19.060

you get in Eastern Europe. Do you have the impression that if Cardinal Glemp, the present prime minister in Poland, that the Pope's visit hasn't, in effect, recreated it?

01:24:19.060 - 01:24:29.060

I wouldn't put it that far. I would think that it recreated the values of solidarity, the kind of inner resistance that is needed if the Polish nation is to survive

01:24:29.060 - 01:24:39.060

when it is governed by a clearly alien state. Overall, then, what do you say will be the principal psychological consequences of this visit? What is the impact on the great state bureaucracy,

01:24:39.060 - 01:24:56.860

the people who have, after all, worked within and make their living out of the political system? to look at the things. We cannot predict the precise political changes that will take place in Poland, but we can say that in the absence of politics in Poland, the psychology of the

01:24:56.860 - 01:25:18.560

(people chattering) And of course, music. (upbeat Polish music) The sounds aren't all traditional Polish,

01:25:18.560 - 01:25:29.580

as the Pope himself has pointed out. Poland's culture is Western European. (upbeat Polish music) (singing in foreign language)

01:25:29.580 - 01:25:52.380

There's even a band of clerics on hand, dog collars and amplified guitars. (singing in foreign language) But in a park nearby, music of a grander kind.

01:25:52.380 - 01:26:33.100

(upbeat music) [MUSIC] A a huge altar and an expectant congregation.

01:26:33.100 - 01:26:44.320

(singing in foreign language) And so the second part of the papal visit began with another vast crowd. Who could guess their numbers?

01:26:44.320 - 01:26:57.440

A million, perhaps more. And a gaggle of priests to swell the throng. The solidarity victory salutes were everywhere. Even the nuns were joining in.

01:26:57.440 - 01:27:26.920

And of course they sang "God give us back a free homeland". The papal motorcade was all glaring lights and high-profile security. And the men of the militia were out in strength, merely observers today, but their activities still remembered by the monument to the 53 people killed in Poznan in 1956, during Poland's

01:27:26.920 - 01:27:46.600

first industrial riots under communist rule. There had been more deaths in the 1980s here in the industrial heartland around Katowice where the Pope was to stop next. The Wujek Colliery three days after martial law had been imposed, seven striking miners

01:27:46.600 - 01:27:59.300

were shot dead by Zuma riot police. Thousands of police now patrolled amongst the people as they gathered to meet the Pope. notorious police actions under martial law, four days into the Pope's visit,

01:27:59.300 - 01:28:10.300

they were showing uncharacteristic restraint, and the people appeared undeterred by having to run the gauntlet of their presence. The mass at Katowice was to be centered

01:28:10.300 - 01:28:22.300

on a strange pyramid structure, a major military operation surrounded getting the Pope here at all. Half a dozen helicopters accompanied him,

01:28:23.300 - 01:28:33.300

one of them carrying a crack anti-terrorist unit who, seconds before he touched down, streamed across the helipad to protect him. He was supposed to land just behind the pyramid,

01:28:33.300 - 01:28:49.300

his helicopter practically removing the high altar as it descended. It was left to the attendant priesthood to chase a stray dog from the proceedings. It was as the Pope ascended,

01:28:49.300 - 01:28:58.460

with the crowd stretching as far as the eye could see, but the skies began to darken. (rain falling) By the time he neared the top,

01:28:58.460 - 01:29:14.200

the rain had started to descend. The colliery band and choir played on. (choir singing in foreign language) [Music]

01:29:14.200 - 01:29:48.940

[Music] Despite the rain which did finally stop and the police presence beyond the the Pope was eventually to sit down, having used the event not only to mention

01:29:48.940 - 01:30:00.940

illegal solidarity again, but to stress the moral right to form trade unions. "It's not a right given to us by the state," he said. "The state's only duty is to protect that right."

01:30:00.940 - 01:30:21.480

A million hands thundered applause. Some in the crowd even began dancing. A day earlier, the authorities had issued a thinly disguised attack on the political issues that were developing from the Pope's trip.

01:30:21.480 - 01:30:35.500

In Katowice's cathedral that night, he appeared to underline a refusal to be deterred by the state's criticism. He chose, pointedly, to devote time with the widows of those seven minors who'd been killed by the state's police.

01:30:35.500 - 01:30:49.980

Even so, his attempts to win the authorities ran to some kind of renewed dialogue between the church and government were nearing a climax. (audience applauding) - It was in Wroclaw that the Pope was to deliver

01:30:49.980 - 01:30:58.140

what many will remember as the most potent single sentence from all his addresses. I bring you my solidarity and that of the church, he declared.

01:30:58.140 - 01:31:16.060

It was received by a crowd which unexpectedly seemed more given to listening attentively than responding vociferously. Wroclaw is a solidarity stronghold and the Pope's presence here had been anticipated by some with unease.

01:31:16.060 - 01:31:40.060

There have been violent clashes in the town since martial law and the arrest of several underground leaders. As the Pope left, the feelings of dissent finally surfaced. Later there was a short-lived demonstration, but the police were ready, bringing into the open for the first time during the visit the paraphernalia of martial law,

01:31:40.060 - 01:32:00.060

an armoured personnel carrier, a water cannon full to overflowing, and the ominous sight of jeeps carrying tear gas launchers. No such menacing images at St Anne's Mount on the Silesian Plateau,

01:32:00.060 - 01:32:16.060

although the Franciscan monastery here has seen conflict enough in the past, with fierce uprisings against German occupation. Today it's regarded as a shrine to Polish patriotism. The pilgrims must tackle a sharp climb

01:32:16.060 - 01:32:28.060

and leave their bicycles at the bottom of the hill. St Anne's had never seen such a pilgrimage as this. [singing] Alleluia!

01:32:28.060 - 01:32:53.060

By your side, I pray and call, God, lead me! Alleluia! The motorcade sailed through a sea of people covering the fields on every side.

01:32:53.060 - 01:33:42.060

The reception for the Pope was ecstatic, no political overtones this time, just a great measure of joy. He savoured their welcome from another magnificent altar, cries of "Long live the Pope" swelling around him. As John Paul began to speak, they burst into the greeting song "Stolat", "May you live a hundred years". [singing]

01:33:42.060 - 01:34:22.380

(singing in foreign language) [MUSIC PLAYING] [music] [Music]

01:34:22.380 - 01:34:55.580

When at last they let him go, he left aboard a right-hand drive Popemobile, made by British Leyland and used on British roads last year. By the time he reached what once had been his home, Krakow, he was riding in a bus. During the journey from St. Anne's, a Vatican spokesman had criticized the world's media for the reporting of his mission here.

01:34:55.580 - 01:35:25.500

The Pope, we were told, regarded it as non-political and solely devoted to religion and morality. Yet it was with Poland's most political signal, the solidarity victory sign, that the crowds now welcomed him. Once neared to the window of his old home for a few rare minutes, he told jokes. Laughter and applause replaced the slogans and for a moment the memories of his time as archbishop here were rekindled

01:35:25.500 - 01:35:58.080

But once they had bid him goodnight the victory signs again dominated their celebration of his presence here An almost carnival atmosphere had prevailed during the day leading up to his homecoming. Children playing, old ladies taking the air, a peaceful contrast to the angry urban Polish scenes to which the world had become more accustomed.

01:35:58.080 - 01:36:15.080

A small boy contemplated what appeared to be preparations for the world's biggest cattle market. In fact, there was to be another gigantic papal mass here. Priests had appealed to every parish in southern Poland for logs to provide pens to separate their parishioners.

01:36:15.080 - 01:36:35.080

Carpenters had travelled a hundred miles for the privilege of sawing or planing the woodwork for the high altar. Nuns from the convent neighbouring the Pope's old home were busy hammering white drapes over the completed bits of the developing structure.

01:36:35.080 - 01:36:49.380

(footsteps) Not even the yellow centers were allowed to stain the whiteness of the lilies, whilst the woven papal insignia was swept by novices

01:36:49.380 - 01:37:07.320

who were dressed almost like extras from the sound of music. And already close to the altar, Anxious to secure good places, early campers were settling beneath their brollies.

01:37:07.320 - 01:37:23.820

Within 24 hours, they'd been joined by one or two others. But if the Vatican had been hoping to escape the political undertones of the Pope's moral and religious crusade here, the political symbolism of this mass cannot have been lost on the authorities.

01:37:23.820 - 01:37:39.820

For this was a celebration to beatify two priests who had struggled against the Russian occupation of Poland in the last century. (applause) A little misunderstanding arose during the giving of the Mass here.

01:37:39.820 - 01:37:58.660

A long queue had already formed of those to whom the Pope was to administer the bread. But one old lady appeared to have decided that this was to be her last chance in life to receive communion from a Pope. it was a chance the security men were to deny her.

01:37:58.660 - 01:38:12.760

With the presentation of gifts, the political undertones were there again, this time in the gift of a Bronx Solidarity victory sign. And again, banned Solidarity flags and banners,

01:38:12.760 - 01:38:24.360

which until his visit would have incurred instant arrest had they been produced in public. Indeed, the tens of thousands of police who since martial law have hounded Solidarity's followers

01:38:24.360 - 01:38:33.640

rarely intervened here. Nevertheless, for the people streaming away from the mass towards Krakow's old town, the fact that so many police were here at all

01:38:33.640 - 01:38:46.160

served to underline that the mechanics of martial law remained in place. A few miles from Krakow's historic center is Nowohuta, a steel town built in the '50s.

01:38:46.160 - 01:38:58.320

Conceived as a model communist community, it had no churches. But now the statue of Lenin looks out on papal emblems. And nearby, a new church, the town's second.

01:38:58.320 - 01:39:19.600

The wooden hut is where they had to pray until the authorities finally let them build the church. The Pope was coming to consecrate that church, and as they waited for him, the people who should have been atheists confessed openly in the shadow of the towering, anonymous apartment blocks.

01:39:19.600 - 01:39:33.060

The Solidarity supporters were here in strength. Martial law has left a particular sense of bitterness in Nowohuta, but resentment is mixed with a strong religious faith. The protesters knelt symbolically, their banners lowered.

01:39:33.060 - 01:39:52.760

[Protestors chanting] The numbers awaiting the Pope showed just how impossible it was to conceive a town without churches in Poland. As the Solidarity marchers snaked their way through, banners and victory signs aloft,

01:39:52.760 - 01:40:07.260

they were greeted by applause. [applause] And when the motorcade at last appeared, it seemed for a moment as though the security men might lose control.

01:40:07.260 - 01:40:20.260

[applause] But John Paul reached the church safely enough to face the Solidarity banners. [applause] He was greeted by cheers and flowers from a rather bewildered well-wisher.

01:40:20.260 - 01:40:49.860

Her reward, a medal and a moment to remember forever. Moments such as this come all too seldom in Nowa Huta. After the Pope had gone, there were more protest demonstrations. They paraded unhindered on this occasion, but normally the militia intervene in force.

01:40:49.860 - 01:41:13.860

Those on the streets were unlikely to enjoy such freedom again. The Pope, meanwhile, was returning to Krakow on an evening which was to provide a dramatic climax to his visit. He was coming to the Vavel Cathedral and the last official ecclesiastical ceremony of his pilgrimage. The public moments of the visit now over, the Pope was here to close a meeting of the provincial synod.

01:41:13.860 - 01:41:32.360

If John Paul was pensive, he had good reason. The bishops too perhaps sensed there were other things on his mind. As he left, he was expected to return to his Krakow residence for the last time, but he was bound instead for a second meeting with Poland's military ruler,

01:41:32.360 - 01:41:48.360

General Wojciech Jaruzelski, who that night had flown from Warsaw. John Paul went from the cathedral to the adjoining rector's house, leaving a puzzled crowd waiting outside. Inside, some plain talking between Pope and General,

01:41:48.360 - 01:42:01.360

and it appears important agreements. Both were anxious for the visit to end harmoniously. As a result of this meeting, an early end to martial law now seems likely, perhaps even an amnesty for political prisoners.

01:42:01.360 - 01:42:15.360

In return, the Church may use its influence to lessen Poland's deep divisions, openly distancing itself from the solidarity underground. They talked for more than an hour and a half, church and state unexpectedly coming together

01:42:15.360 - 01:42:32.360

in the unlikely setting of Krakow's Wawel Castle, a symbol of the nation's independent past. In the rather less imposing environs of the Lenin shipyard in Gdansk, the man seen by some as the victim of this coming together of church and state,

01:42:32.360 - 01:42:54.360

Lech Wałęsa, had finally got his permit to go south for his meeting with the Pope. There'd been speculation all week as to if, when, and where such a meeting might take place. But it was now at least definitely on, delighted, his shipyard mates. His family had just time to go out for a few last-minute supplies.

01:42:54.360 - 01:43:13.360

The police, who follow Valenza's every move, sat at the ready, whilst his other minders, the Western TV crews, had another interview. Whatever Mr. Valenza's own hopes, Vatican officials say that having seen him in Rome as Solidarity's leader, For the Pope not to see him in Poland now in such changed circumstances would be unacceptable.

01:43:13.360 - 01:43:28.160

But the presence of Mrs. Wałęsa and some of their children at the meeting suggested it was to be more for spiritual comfort than any attempt by the Pope to reinstate Wałęsa in a new political solution, however much his supporters might wish it otherwise.

01:43:28.160 - 01:43:44.440

At the other end of Poland, in Kraków, the Pope had planned a private day. (crowd chanting in foreign language) Though that didn't stop his followers from turning out to see him leave amid tight security.

01:43:44.440 - 01:44:01.000

(crowd chanting in foreign language) He was to go by helicopter to a destination which neither government nor Vatican would disclose. High on Poland's border with Czechoslovakia,

01:44:01.000 - 01:44:10.880

there's a range of mountains and valleys in which as a young man and later as archbishop, the Pope used to walk. He's talked of the inspiration he found here.

01:44:10.880 - 01:44:22.480

When lying in a Rome clinic two years ago, recovering from near fatal gunshot wounds, it's said that he longed to come here to recuperate. Part of the reason for setting this day in Poland aside

01:44:22.480 - 01:44:32.880

had been to revisit these places, and part to see whether there was a chance that perhaps one day, even as Pope, he could come back here to spend time privately.

01:44:32.880 - 01:44:41.800

In a field outside the little village of Hohouuf, a military helicopter sat, the implication now that it had brought the vowensas for their meeting.

01:44:41.800 - 01:44:58.840

The papal helicopter came in across the same valley, swinging in across the forests. And then descending towards the trees. It was down here that Solidarity's former leader

01:44:58.840 - 01:45:15.660

and the Pope met, a family audience in complete privacy, it seems to have suited both church and state very well. Six hours later, the Pope reappeared publicly again, mounting the steps to his papal aircraft

01:45:15.660 - 01:45:34.400

to bid goodbye to his people and his homeland. (people applauding) (choral singing) (men chanting)

01:45:34.400 - 01:45:44.320

Behind him lay eight days in which for his people he had been no longer a picture on the wall but with them in the flesh. Eight days in which despite the pressures

01:45:44.320 - 01:46:01.320

there'd been time for jokes with old friends. And in which he'd managed to move amongst his compatriots in a dozen different centers. He had shown himself fit and resilient,

01:46:01.320 - 01:46:11.120

Much more the man we'd seen here before the attempt on his life. Poland had feared another attempt here. Security men stood with guns in their coats,

01:46:11.120 - 01:46:26.040

centralized communications in their ears. He'd returned to his former university. Revisited the cathedral from which as Cardinal he had traveled to become Pope in Rome.

01:46:29.720 - 01:46:47.240

stirred old emotions at the graves of his parents, (choir singing) and found time for the simplest gestures that meant so much to those who received them.

01:46:47.240 - 01:47:10.180

(choir singing) (dramatic music) The Polish airliner bearing him to Rome lifted off at five o'clock last Thursday evening.

01:47:10.180 - 01:47:27.360

The Pope carried with him both memories and hopes. Below, Poland was considering the effect of his visit and resuming the process of life without him. The trappings of the papal pilgrimage are now stripped of their finery and soon the altars will be dismantled.

01:47:27.360 - 01:47:49.360

John Paul has gone back to Rome, those who flocked to see him have made the weary journey home. The people of Poland can now only ponder what will follow the visit. There were those who expected a miracle, who believed that the presence of the Pope would somehow generate a dramatic change, as it did before. they will almost certainly be disappointed.

01:47:49.360 - 01:48:13.360

But there is reason to hope that this visit may lead to better things, that some real dialogue can be opened to close the divisions which are so deep in Poland. Much of the responsibility for that will rest with the Polish primate Cardinal Glemp. If the Pope has found some common ground with the authorities,

01:48:13.360 - 01:48:28.560

it is the Cardinal who must exploit it. The man he must deal with, General Jaruzelski, would now seem prepared to make concessions. But he knows he must move with care. There remain hardline critics within his own party, and those elsewhere on whose support

01:48:28.560 - 01:48:45.260

he depends. For Lech Wałęsa, returning quietly home from his meeting with the Pope, there would appear to be no role to play in the business of conciliation between Church and State. Yet those who would prefer him to slip quietly from the limelight have had a sharp reminder

01:48:45.260 - 01:49:07.300

of the level of support that remains for Solidarity. The thousands who have expressed that support in the presence of the Pope will not easily be satisfied by gradual change. They have heard John Paul speak of freedom and human rights, and he has left them perhaps

01:49:07.300 - 01:49:57.260

more determined than before to have their dreams fulfilled. (singing in foreign language) (dramatic music) [music]

01:49:57.260 - 01:50:07.260

outside Albania. Relations between the Czech government and the Vatican have plunged to a new low after what some observers see as the most serious attack

01:50:07.260 - 01:50:19.260

on the Catholic Church since the purges of 1950. In the last 18 months, at least a dozen priests have been imprisoned for unauthorized religious activity. Three Franciscan friars, still being held in prison

01:50:19.260 - 01:50:31.260

after a series of nationwide police raids three months ago, are currently under investigation as suspects in what are officially termed economic crimes. It appears they were arrested for distributing literature

01:50:31.260 - 01:50:45.260

relating to the so-called underground church. Such arrests are regarded as further evidence of a communist regime worried that Czechoslovakia's Roman Catholic Church could become a major political force as that in neighboring Poland.

01:50:45.260 - 01:51:06.260

In Newsnight team, often filming in secret, have just returned from Czechoslovakia. John Simpson now reports on the struggle between church and state. [Music] 11 o'clock on a warm Sunday morning in the old centre of Prague.

01:51:06.260 - 01:51:29.860

[Music] The baroque splendours of St Thomas's Church are nothing special in a city that abounds in such things. But the government all the same is generous to St Thomas's and the restoration work has been meticulous. The only thing that's in serious decline is the congregation.

01:51:29.860 - 01:51:47.740

Almost everyone attending Mass here today can remember the time before 1948, when Marxism became the official religion of the state. As for the priest, if he's prepared to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, he's licensed by the state and the government pays him his salary.

01:51:47.740 - 01:52:09.180

But he can't teach young people and the number of masses he can perform is strictly limited. He is in fact a kind of civil servant, but one who's actively encouraged by the authorities to carry out his duties with as little enthusiasm as possible. The licensing system isn't just a method of keeping the church under control, it's a way

01:52:09.180 - 01:52:29.860

of gradually winding it down to the point where the congregation drops away. But what the authorities dislike having to admit is that a parallel, unofficial church exists, a church that has to operate in the manner of an underground organisation. We've spoken to various people who worship in this unofficial way.

01:52:29.860 - 01:52:42.420

Some of them have been too frightened to say anything about it and have asked us not to approach them again. But there are others whose dislike of the official system and belief in the rightness of what they're doing is so great that they were prepared to take the risk of helping

01:52:42.420 - 01:52:56.420

us. They arranged for us to film this service. It had to be done with great secrecy, without permission from the authorities. For this poses a direct threat to the state,

01:52:56.420 - 01:53:11.420

and to the kind of control the state exerts over the official church. It's an ecumenical service, organized mostly by Catholics, but held in a Protestant hall. Most of the worshippers are young.

01:53:11.420 - 01:53:20.100

The church is passionate further here, an almost early Christian intensity. The worshippers want something much more than the official church,

01:53:20.100 - 01:53:28.660

which deliberately avoids the spirit of religion, can provide them. At this service, no one needs a government licence because there are no priests and no ministers.

01:53:28.660 - 01:53:47.340

The authorities have been so successful in killing off the old church that a new one has started to take its place. "I think that this revenge on the people who are working for this new church can be savage."

01:53:47.340 - 01:54:04.340

One man who suffered heavily for his work is Dr. Vaclav Bender, a poet, a mathematician, a philosopher, and perhaps the most prominent Catholic layman in Czechoslovakia. One month ago he was released from jail after serving a full four-year sentence

01:54:04.340 - 01:54:26.060

for his work for prisoners of conscience. to speak to us, he had to give the slip to the secret policeman who keep him under 24 hour surveillance and we drove to the countryside outside Prague to record our interview. I returned from jail about a month ago and our position compared with political prisoners

01:54:26.060 - 01:54:42.300

in the 70s was slightly different. We were not isolated from others, we were put together with criminals and we were treated in the same way as criminals. Conditions in Czech jails are pretty hard and difficult to imagine for someone who lives in the West.

01:54:42.300 - 01:54:59.740

Our situation was made more difficult by the continual offer which was available to us to leave the country and emigrate. We were also offered the possibility of immediate freedom if we admitted our guilt, thus making legal the court proceedings against us.

01:54:59.740 - 01:55:17.620

In other words, if we agreed that the sentence was justified. That was in theory an advantage and of course a temptation, but in reality the prison authorities had instructions to break us and to force us to make such admissions.

01:55:17.620 - 01:55:32.340

But persecution is nothing new in Czechoslovakia. These pictures, the first of their kind to be broadcast in the West, show a home in southern Bohemia for nuns who've been forcibly retired. Here too we were obliged to film in secret.

01:55:32.340 - 01:55:45.580

The nuns aren't allowed to wear their habits nor to leave the grounds. They act as nurses to the old people who also live here. On April the 30th, 1950, every convent and monastery

01:55:45.580 - 01:55:55.860

in Czechoslovakia was raided by the secret police of the new communist state. Twelve thousand monks and nuns were put on trucks and taken away, and two thirds of them ended up

01:55:55.860 - 01:56:10.340

in labour camps, often working unprotected in uranium mines. All religious orders were eliminated by law. In the early 60s, as the state became less repressive, most of the survivors were released.

01:56:10.340 - 01:56:27.900

Those of them who wanted to stay as nuns came back to places like this, where they were allowed to do useful social work by a state which otherwise refused to recognise their vocations. The trauma of 1968 when Soviet tanks put an end to the brief attempt at liberalisation

01:56:27.900 - 01:56:51.960

also brought new efforts to control the churches. The old system of control for priests, the peace movement for Catholic clergy, had collapsed during the Dubček period. Now it was reborn under the name Parchemin Teres, Peace on Earth. The Parchemin Teres is officially there to protect and bolster up the official church,

01:56:51.960 - 01:57:07.160

but there's no question about the deadening effect it's had. It's rather akin to the restoration work that's going on at the famous church at Vyšerad, once a rival to Prague's cathedral itself. The building work may be done to protect the fabric,

01:57:07.160 - 01:57:26.200

but it's unquestionably keeping the worshippers away. Less than a dozen people turned up for the officially sponsored mass this particular Sunday, and there's no sign that the authorities regard the restoration with any urgency. Páčem in Teris is thought to have a third of the 3,000 priests in Czechoslovakia on its payroll.

01:57:26.200 - 01:57:47.200

But it's loosely organised and facts about it are hard to obtain, even from the civil servant who runs it. Páčem in Teris is an association of Catholic clergymen who got together in order to promote the idea of peace between nations, world peace.

01:57:47.200 - 01:58:09.200

According to our law, it is not even a legal body. It is simply an association of Catholic clergy carrying on its activities in accordance with its own rules. And is it a government organization?

01:58:09.200 - 01:58:25.920

Of course not. It has got nothing in common with the state. It is an association of Catholic clergy. That's all it is. Nevertheless, it has powerful government support, and the government pays surely the salaries of the priests that belong to it.

01:58:25.920 - 01:58:38.440

No. The fact that the state pays the priests' wages has got nothing whatsoever to do with parciamentaries. The state pays all priests, whether they are members or not.

01:58:38.440 - 01:58:59.560

in Parcimiento, this is entirely the clergyman's own private decision. No, it's a total lie, of course. The organization is a continuation of a previous organization which was set up immediately, almost, after the communist takeover of Czechoslovakia. Its fundamental aim, I think, is to control the church from within. There are a number

01:58:59.560 - 01:59:15.940

of restrictions on the church from outside, as it were. But this way, the priests who who are blackmailed and forced to belong to this organisation, you see, are a kind of fifth column within the Church. It weakens the spiritual integrity, it weakens the autonomy of the Church.

01:59:15.940 - 01:59:28.940

[church bells] Cardinal Tomaszek, the Archbishop of Prague, has become deeply involved in the Parchim-in-Teres controversy. Until three years ago, he was prepared to go along with a good deal

01:59:28.940 - 01:59:43.620

that the Czechoslovak government said and did about the Church. But the election of a Polish Pope, which changed the Vatican's attitude to communist governments, also changed the Archbishop. And when in March of last year the Vatican issued its decree forbidding priests from

01:59:43.620 - 02:00:01.700

belonging to political organizations and peace movements, it was the Archbishop who made it clear that the Vatican specifically had Parchim in terris in mind. But the communist authorities still refuse to accept that. There are many aspects to this question.

02:00:01.700 - 02:00:17.980

Firstly, it's a statement made by the Vatican congregation, not by the Holy Father. Secondly, it was not directed against Czechoslovakia and other socialist states. But the recent visit of the Holy Father in Central America showed that the statement was directed above all at these areas.

02:00:17.980 - 02:00:36.500

In addition, it is a general statement. That's an incredible statement to make, because Cardinal Tomášek said the opposite. In an open letter to the Patriarchal Interest Priest, he said, "The Pope is behind it. The Pope knows our situation, he was our neighbor in Poland, he knows exactly what he's doing,

02:00:36.500 - 02:00:52.920

and he quoted a Latin tag saying "Roma Locuta Causa Finita" to them. Meaning what? Meaning the thing is over, it's banned. That is his open letter, which of course wasn't published in Czechoslovakia, but was circulated

02:00:52.920 - 02:01:11.160

in those many unofficial publications that we've got. The Pope's decree has put the priests who up to now have been prepared to go along with Parche Menteres in a very difficult position indeed. On the one hand they have the clear instruction of the Vatican.

02:01:11.160 - 02:01:27.220

On the other they face the loss of their licenses to work as priests. Morale has slumped, though how many priests have decided to drop out isn't known. Since Parche Menteres doesn't have a formal membership it isn't necessary to resign, only to refuse to take an active part.

02:01:27.220 - 02:01:41.420

and the pressure is on for them to do precisely that. The chairman of Parchemin Terris in Bohemia told me that he is subjected to relentless moral terror from various people in what is known as the underground church

02:01:41.420 - 02:01:52.460

who threaten him, write rude letters to him and terrorise him for working for the organisation. That is certainly true. That's about as far as any official spokesman will go

02:01:52.460 - 02:02:07.200

in admitting the effectiveness of the underground church. There's no question about the revival of worship in Czechoslovakia after 36 drab years of communist rule. And it's often the very drabness of the official atheism which makes people take a new interest

02:02:07.200 - 02:02:30.460

in the things of the spirit, which is precisely the aspect of organized Christianity that the government has tried its best to do away with. The fact is that the state consistently tries to eradicate all traces of Christianity, even from our history. There is a special censor for folk singers and folk groups who removes

02:02:30.460 - 02:02:50.820

any mention of a god or any aspect of their songs that could be considered religious. The same goes for literature, music. During the broadcasts of Christmas carols, all you hear are songs about shepherds hurrying to and fro, and a listener who didn't know what was going on wouldn't have the slightest idea where the shepherds are going and why. This

02:02:50.820 - 02:03:15.140

This is a tragic situation, not only for the people, but for the whole nation, because a nation whose culture has been formed for a thousand years by Christianity can't drop all mention of Christianity from its history without losing its soul. The young in particular come to religious gatherings like these to get away from the

02:03:15.140 - 02:03:30.020

restrictions and the emptiness of everyday life. The official church doesn't organise youth clubs and neither does the Communist Party, except for young people who are party members. To the Westerner there's a slightly 1960s feel about this kind of meeting.

02:03:30.020 - 02:03:45.260

Many of the people here feel a moral revulsion against the compromises their elders have made with the system. It's for this reason that unofficial priests, those who've rejected the idea that they can minister to the faithful only if they're licensed by the government, have a particular attraction.

02:03:45.260 - 02:04:14.580

"To meet one such priest we had to make special arrangements to film him so our camera wouldn't be seen. Father Josef Kordyk, a Jesuit, has a six-month suspended sentence hanging over him, imposed because he insisted on saying mass after he'd lost his official license." "Young believers in particular are dissatisfied with what they are offered in church.

02:04:14.580 - 02:04:27.580

Priests have been selected, screened. As soon as somebody proves his worth, he is moved to the country or has his license revoked, and some are even imprisoned.

02:04:27.580 - 02:04:40.580

Priests in churches are scared. They are afraid to address themselves to the problems of this society. They do not help to solve problems. The believers leave unsatisfied,

02:04:40.580 - 02:05:06.420

and they therefore go to those who do help them to solve their problems and who talk about things that concern them. And the only priests who can afford to do this are priests who do not have to worry about the state security. It always entails some risk, but there are priests who have got the courage to do this, who want to serve, who want to help,

02:05:06.980 - 02:05:30.480

who wants to live according to their faith and to fulfill their mission, which is to preach the Gospels. The Church clearly offers a way out, particularly in the absence of any political hopes. The Church offers, if you like, it sounds almost Protestant, a clean way of life. You've got a demoralized society on the one hand, and you've got the party which rules,

02:05:30.480 - 02:05:52.480

which is the party membership, which is the necessary requirement for career. And in this completely demoralized society, the Church offers values, you know, even ordinary values such as friendship, cultural values, national identity. Better be right this time.

02:05:52.480 - 02:06:01.480

Good morning, gentlemen. Good morning, Inspector. Good morning, Inspector. Everything all sharp and shiny?

02:06:01.480 - 02:06:15.580

Just thought you'd like to know the trial is all set for tomorrow morning. - Well, that sounds encouraging. - Yes, it's encouraging for me. - But, uh, bad for you. - Have some coffee, Inspector. You know, you two could save yourself a lot of trouble if you would tell me where the jewel is.

02:06:15.580 - 02:06:29.380

Tuck into some of that porridge, Inspector. It's guaranteed good for sleuthing. - You refuse to cooperate, huh? - We've offered you porridge and coffee. It's all that's left. Well, I'm glad that you're enjoying yourselves. Because you're going to be here for the next 20 years.

02:06:29.380 - 02:06:50.140

Yes. Madame Clouseau. Your Highness. Madame.

02:06:50.140 - 02:07:02.740

Would you sit down? I'll be brief and to the point. My husband feels he has enough evidence to prove that Sir Charles is the Phantom and to convict George as his accomplice.

02:07:02.740 - 02:07:14.740

As I see it, they only have one chance. What is that? If Your Highness were to testify on their behalf, somehow convince the jury that, well, they didn't even take the diamond.

02:07:14.740 - 02:07:23.540

You surprise me, Madame. I expect to. And I'm taking the chance that you will keep what I'm about to tell you in the strictest confidence. I think I can, yes.

02:07:23.540 - 02:07:36.140

It's not too difficult. Being the wife of Inspector Clouseau, you could have been very helpful to Charles. I have been. Was stealing my dog all part of the plan?

02:07:36.140 - 02:07:54.140

That was the plan. But I think you should know that Charles wanted to call it off. (silence) (door opens)

02:07:54.140 - 02:08:10.200

(keys jingling) (silence) - You've had it all the time. You stole the jewel yourself

02:08:10.200 - 02:08:18.140

before the International Court made its decision. I'd gladly sacrifice it to save Charles, but it's not so simple. - Couldn't you say you just found it

02:08:18.140 - 02:08:26.280

on the grounds or something? - They just claim he dropped it making his escape. No. To save Charles, we must prove that someone else stole it.

02:08:26.280 - 02:08:36.060

- But we'd never be able to do that. - I have an idea. (bells ringing) - The trial is in its third day.

02:08:36.060 - 02:08:47.440

Seldom in the history of Italian jurisprudence has a trial created such intense excitement. Thousands of people, and it is interesting to note most of them women, have gathered daily, hoping to catch a glimpse of Sir Charles Lytton,

02:08:47.440 - 02:08:58.480

the man accused of being the notorious Phantom. The court adjourned yesterday, as the defense requested time to investigate certain new important evidence. And it is rumored that when the court convenes today,

02:08:58.480 - 02:09:10.640

the defense will call a surprise witness. - The defense has only one witness, Mr. President. Would you please call Inspector Jacques Clouseau to the stand? - You mean a defense witness?

02:09:10.640 - 02:09:32.080

- Inspector Clouseau? - Nothing to worry about, my darling. He'll make fools out of them. Inspector Clouseau, you've testified under oath to certain pertinent facts concerning this case.

02:09:32.080 - 02:09:46.880

Your testimony and your testimony alone has been the major factor in casting suspicion on the defendant. Aside from the Phantom himself, you are the foremost authority on the Phantom. I've made the Phantom my life's work.

02:09:46.880 - 02:10:02.880

You testify that the Phantom has been a frequent guest at the numerous parties given by Miss Angela Dunning. That is correct, yes. You testify that it was either during or sometime soon afterwards that certain of Miss Dunning's guests were robbed of their jewels. Yes.

02:10:02.880 - 02:10:13.680

How many times did this happen? Sixteen. - Sixteen parties, sixteen thefts? - Yes. - And Sir Charles attended all 16 of those parties? - All of them.

02:10:13.680 - 02:10:30.440

And how many of those parties did you attend, Inspector? - All of them. - Oh, that's very interesting. - You attended the first party when the jewels were stolen? - Yes, yes. The jewels were stolen during or after the party?

02:10:30.440 - 02:10:40.100

- After. - Oh, so then you knew they were going to be stolen? - Oh, yes. - How did you know? Because that is the modus operandi of the Phantom. He always works that way.

02:10:40.100 - 02:10:54.600

Oh, I see. Were the same people always present at each party? Oh, no. The guest list varied. Outside of Sir Charles, was anybody else always present at each of these parties?

02:10:54.600 - 02:11:05.300

Er... No, no, no. Only Sir Charles was present at each party when there was a robbery. Yes, yes. I see.

02:11:05.300 - 02:11:16.300

- What about you? - Me? Yes, you. - What about me? - Well, you were there. - Yes. - Well, then, Sir Charles was not the only one always present at each party.

02:11:16.300 - 02:11:31.300

- What are you suggesting? - I'm not suggesting anything. Yet. - Inspector Tlusar. - Hmm? How much money do you make?

02:11:31.300 - 02:11:37.800

Oh, what has this got to do with it? What has this got to do with it? Well, your salary. How much does a police inspector get paid?

02:11:37.800 - 02:11:48.300

You know, I... Enough to buy your wife a $10,000 mink coat? No, of course not. You're aware that your wife spent $7,000 at Yves Saint Laurent only last month?

02:11:48.300 - 02:11:58.300

What? And two months before that, $4,000? Well, it's impossible. We know for a fact that your wife spent at least $30,000 on clothes during the past year.

02:11:58.300 - 02:12:07.800

Sir, my wife is very frugal. She saves out of the housekeeping money. [laughter] [phone ringing]

02:12:07.800 - 02:12:15.800

$30,000 out of the housekeeping money. Yeah, we've been married for 10 years. [laughter] [phone ringing]

02:12:15.800 - 02:12:24.800

About the time that these robberies began and the notorious phantom came into existence. Correct? Yes. No, no, not correct. Of course not correct. Of course.

02:12:24.800 - 02:12:32.800

Oh, yeah. Wait, wait. You see... [gasps] - It's not Sir Charles. - He must be the phantom!

02:12:32.800 - 02:12:44.580

(indistinct chatter) - Nine. (thump) (thump) - It's not Sir Charles.

02:12:44.580 - 02:13:19.620

(crowd cheering) - No, I'm not the Santa, no, no, no, please, please. (crowd chattering) - Thank you, darling.

02:13:19.620 - 02:13:24.060

- My little princess. - Look at that. (crowd cheering) - No, no, I'm not the Phantom.

02:13:24.060 - 02:13:32.500

No, no, no, I'm not the Phantom. - We can't just let him rot in prison. - Oh, it takes years for people to rot. Besides, when the Phantom strikes again,

02:13:32.500 - 02:13:38.260

the inspector will be as free as a bird. Wanna come to South America, George? Family rates? - I wouldn't miss it, Uncle Charles.

02:13:38.260 - 02:13:46.260

- (chuckles) Good. Who knows, when I retire, I might be a go for the business. [crowd cheering] [crowd cheering]

02:13:46.260 - 02:13:54.260

[crowd cheering] [crowd cheering] [music stops] [music resumes]

02:13:54.260 - 02:14:10.260

...for another edition of Seven Days. [music] [music] Good evening.

02:14:10.260 - 02:14:20.260

This week, that show of force by the United States off both coasts of revolutionary Central America, the latest touchstone of moral anguish for American public opinion.

02:14:20.260 - 02:14:28.260

A former United States ambassador to Britain, Kingman Brewster, discusses the American mood and its effect on American policy.

02:14:28.260 - 02:14:39.260

And religion in the Soviet Union. With the World Council of Churches meeting this week, often criticized for turning a blind eye to the situation of religion in the communist countries,

02:14:39.260 - 02:14:50.260

Helene Heymann talks to the Rev. Michael Borg. The largest single representation at the 6th meeting of the World Council of Churches in Vancouver this week is the one from the Soviet Union,

02:14:50.260 - 02:15:00.260

because the Russian Orthodox Church is the biggest single member. The Russian writer Alexander Solzhenitsyn has assailed the World Council ferociously

02:15:00.260 - 02:15:14.260

for ignoring the reality of the persecution of religious belief in the Soviet Union, where there are today some 7,000 Orthodox churches. Solzhenitsyn has written of those churches movingly

02:15:14.260 - 02:15:26.900

that they are the pacifying secret of the Russian countryside. They trip up the slopes, ascend the high hills, and come down to the broad rivers. are never alone, they beckon.

02:15:26.900 - 02:15:36.220

But when you get into the village, you find the crosses were knocked off the roof long ago. The dome has been stripped, and there are gaping holes in its rusty ribs.

02:15:36.220 - 02:15:47.740

The murals have been washed by the rains of decades, and obscene inscriptions scrawled over them. It was not the living, but the dead that greeted you from afar.

02:15:47.740 - 02:15:59.580

What is happening to religion under Mr. Andropov? Here's Helene Heyman. Communism, it would seem from contemporary Soviet experience, has failed to remove from the people

02:15:59.580 - 02:16:08.460

their need for what Marx called the opium of religion. The Russian Orthodox Church is severely confined in its political role through its relationship with the state.

02:16:08.460 - 02:16:18.820

But its ceremony and its congregations refuse to die, even within these restrictions. And amongst the groups who can campaign for human rights within Russia, prominent

02:16:18.820 - 02:16:47.020

are evangelical Christians like the Baptists and the Jews. Even outside her own borders, two of the Soviet Union's most intractable problems lie in Afghanistan and Poland, countries where Islam and Catholicism are powerful forces in the struggle for national autonomy. And on the eve of the World Council of Churches meeting, the Soviet government felt constrained to demonstrate its religious toleration by gestures towards Christian denominations.

02:16:47.020 - 02:17:15.020

Michael Bordeaux is the director of Keston College for the study of religious communities in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Mr. Bordeaux, do these gestures, the reopening of this monastery, the visit to Father Yakunin in his labor camp, and the giving of a Bible to him there, are they real evidence that the Soviet government is becoming more tolerant of religious communities? The gestures are a farce and the exact opposite is true.

02:17:15.020 - 02:17:32.020

Under Andropov, people who've been imprisoned for preaching the gospel or printing religious literature, which is against the law, and served, say, a five-year sentence, are being immediately slapped back into prison within the same month. This kind of thing has not happened since Stalin.

02:17:32.020 - 02:17:44.620

This situation for believers generally in the Soviet Union and for Jews in their emigration campaign has become catastrophically worse, and evidence of that is mounting by the day. The monastery you mentioned,

02:17:44.620 - 02:17:59.420

there is no increase in monastic practice in the Soviet Union. What has happened is that the Orthodox Church has been given a new administrative center, and that administrative center is in a monastery, not even the one the church wanted.

02:17:59.420 - 02:18:11.120

They were negotiating for a far finer monastery. Now they've been given a second best one, and all they've done is to move their offices from one place to another. There will be no monks in that monastery at all.

02:18:11.120 - 02:18:29.620

And then you mentioned Father Yakunin. Well, he is a remarkable man because he was very well known a few years ago through having conducted a personal human rights campaign in favor of religious liberty. A debate about him took place at the World Council of Churches meeting in Nairobi in 1975.

02:18:29.620 - 02:18:48.140

The Soviet authorities were obviously very worried that his name was going to come up with prominence again in the new assembly in Vancouver so they were trying to preempt criticism. Do you think exactly that? Father you couldn't have been on hunger strike a few years ago, and he was force-fed Because he was demanding a Bible now

02:18:48.140 - 02:19:07.460

Just in front of the meeting of the World Council of Churches a priest is sent to him and givens it gives him a Bible worldwide publicity announced by the TAS news agency Can you explain a little of how the persecution of believers actually takes place? Because there is this dichotomy is the knot between the Russian Constitution

02:19:07.460 - 02:19:33.200

and its supposed toleration of religion and and and it's freedom to people to believe And what actually happens? Well, the Soviet Constitution means nothing at all In fact Lenin guaranteed in his first Constitution a certain degree of religious liberty and the right To propagate the faith that right has been dropped from the Constitution and the phrase now is

02:19:33.200 - 02:19:58.060

Simply the right to hold religious worship and for the Anti-religious propaganda to coexist with that the right to religious worship simply confines the church to the four walls of a building And who gives the permission for a building to be opened? It's a Soviet state. So that right is worth very little to Soviet Christians at all

02:19:58.060 - 02:20:12.680

and but even within within the Constitution an average group which wants to open a church in a certain area is not permitted to do so because the local authorities will not License the building and all property belongs to the state

02:20:12.680 - 02:20:34.140

But you talked about Lenin and it was Lenin who wrote every defense or justification of the idea of God Even the most refined or best intention is a justification of reaction I mean that there is this political problem. Is there not that? Marxism and Marxist communist ideology was meant to take the place

02:20:34.140 - 02:20:55.000

To stop people having the need for religion. That was what the original belief was in Marx and stronger in In Lenin, I don't think Stalin thought very much about it at all Stalin simply wanted to liquidate the church and and that was it But gradually over the last say 30 years since the death of Stalin

02:20:55.000 - 02:21:13.620

The idea has come to roost in the Soviet Union that religion is not actually going to die out Whatever the Soviet authorities may may say we are faced Andropov says with the reality of religion Let us try and use it in some way and it is incredible the mileage the propaganda mileage

02:21:13.620 - 02:21:34.160

That the Soviet authorities now managed to make out of religion But at the same time that must happen only within certain limits and you have one type of religion for export and another type of policy for internal use and that is why Hundreds probably thousands of people are in prison for their faith in the camps in the Soviet Union at this moment

02:21:34.160 - 02:21:56.060

and yet despite this this attempt to confine the religion that does exist and that it's admitted can't be Dedicated within the Orthodox Church. I mean what I find interesting is is the blossoming of other sects and other denominations, but not only other denominations The whole of religion is blossoming

02:21:56.060 - 02:22:18.080

Despite all the restrictions that we've been talking about the Russian Orthodox Church is having a great revival. There is some magnificent Writing coming out of Russian Orthodox circles young people are turning to something Which is different from communism older than communism they're looking for a root and those roots are being found in Russian history and Russian history and

02:22:18.080 - 02:22:38.040

The traditional religion of orthodoxy go together. But at the same time you have the new sects emerging The Protestant faith has only been Existent in the Soviet Union or in Russia since the mid 19th century But now it's becoming stronger and stronger. It is a real evangelical movement the Baptists

02:22:38.560 - 02:22:58.760

preach in the countryside, they have itinerant evangelists. People make converts among the young. We have evidence of 2,000 or 3,000 young people at a time converging to hear an evangelist out in the open air or in a private house which simply overflows into the garden.

02:22:58.760 - 02:23:12.000

There are not the churches to accommodate these people. And baptisms take place. Young people are being converted by the hundreds. This is a daily phenomenon in the Soviet Union, a reaction against materialism. It's so obvious.

02:23:12.000 - 02:23:30.280

But how will the government react to that? I mean, will they learn to accommodate it in the same way as they accommodate Catholic Poland, do you think? Or will they repress more? They're not really accommodating Catholic Poland. The tensions in Poland are unresolved. But they can't overtly take it on, can they?

02:23:30.280 - 02:23:46.180

No, no. In Poland, religion is too strong to be taken on. That's right. In the Soviet Union, the government does seem to have the upper hand, at least technically. They have the machinery, they have the secret police, they have the laws.

02:23:46.180 - 02:24:04.540

But at the same time, what they cannot do is to control the inner thinking, control the soul of people. And these young people who've been through the communist educational process, which is so full of indoctrination, they nevertheless, some of them come out with some questions

02:24:04.540 - 02:24:14.620

about the meaning of life and so on. And religion comes in at that point. And it's remarkable how even a brief exposure to the Christian faith, or indeed to the Jewish faith,

02:24:14.620 - 02:24:22.020

at some point brings out in people some longing for something which is not covered by the materialism of communism. But it's interesting, isn't it?

02:24:22.020 - 02:24:38.980

- Because you talk about the materialism. - Yes. And yet, perhaps the irony is that religion seems stronger in the communist countries that have tried to take it on and replace it, than in the West where materialism has flourished unabated and perhaps...

02:24:38.980 - 02:25:01.220

That's absolutely true, but the reasons for it are obvious though, you see. If society says one thing, then, and those values are questionable, as the values of our society are questionable, so Soviet values are questionable and people do question them. And you have the same kind the phenomenon, people objecting to whatever the received dogma is.

02:25:01.220 - 02:25:18.780

Now, in the Soviet Union, religion benefits from that. In the West, the exact opposite is the case. And the benefit in the Soviet Union, it comes through the wonderful heroism of people like Father Yakunin, who preach the faith, who live it down to their fingertips, are prepared

02:25:18.780 - 02:25:37.520

to sacrifice themselves, their lives, their liberty for it. And this shining ideal gets across to people. like Solzhenitsyn are heard, they are really influential in the Soviet Union, simply because they present something which is totally alternative to and different from what the state promotes.

02:25:37.520 - 02:25:57.500

Can I ask you, with the World Council of Churches meeting, there's often discussion in the West about the best way to help to offer some support to people who are fighting for human rights or for religious rights in the Soviet Union. And there's this dichotomy of belief, isn't there, between those who say, "Softly, softly,

02:25:57.500 - 02:26:11.420

don't demonstrate, don't make too big a noise about it," and the others who believe you'll never get anywhere with the Soviet government unless you do precisely that. Yes. Well, the World Council of Churches does have some human rights activity.

02:26:11.420 - 02:26:31.860

As far as Eastern Europe is concerned, it's almost all behind the scenes. In fact, what needs to be done is an open activity and a diplomatic activity at the same time, not necessarily by the same people. But the World Council of Churches would be in a much stronger position if it made its views generally known and if it circulated

02:26:31.860 - 02:26:48.020

information about human rights violations, about Father Yakunin, for example, if that was fully circulated to all member churches, then it is in a much stronger position at the same time to make its diplomatic approaches to Eastern Europe. Michael Warder, thank you very much indeed.

02:26:48.020 - 02:26:56.920

And with this edition of "Seven Days," we also come to the end of the present series. And so with a genial nod to all of you who've kept Elaine Heyman and me company

02:26:56.920 - 02:27:07.560

along the somewhat unfamiliar but compelling paths of moral and religious issues in politics and society, that's all until the new series of "Seven Days" begins in the autumn.

02:27:07.560 - 02:27:39.280

And until then, from us all, goodbye. [Music] Him at Balmoral, only she's not. She's not his girlfriend and she's not even Sophie Birdwood. She's Caroline Herbert, the daughter of the Queen's racing manager and an old family friend

02:27:39.280 - 02:27:50.280

she was at Balmoral as the guest of the Queen. The real Sophie Birdwood flew back to London today, not from Balmoral, but from the Bahamas. I must say, she said, I am not amused.

02:27:50.280 - 02:28:06.280

And the headlines again. Interpol have been called in as the search spreads to the continent for the three men who assaulted the six-year-old Brighton boy. The mother of the Irish informer Harry Kirkpatrick

02:28:06.280 - 02:28:17.280

has pleaded with him to retract his evidence, but he's given her no answer. After last night's rail crash in the Irish Republic, questions are being asked about the signals and the state of the carriages.

02:28:17.280 - 02:28:28.280

And finally, they crowned Miss Swaziland last week. They're crowning Miss Swaziland tomorrow too. Unfortunately, the first time round, the master of ceremonies forgot to read his list in reverse order.

02:28:28.280 - 02:28:36.280

So the girl who came first had actually come fourth. Now they're putting it right. The late news at about midnight. Till then, good night.

02:28:36.280 - 02:28:54.280

[Music] On Breakfast Time Tomorrow, that's life. A chance to talk babies with guests Aister Ransom. Powerbird heroine Fiona Brothers races through the papers.

02:28:54.280 - 02:29:10.280

Tired of the tyres? What is art about? And Welcome Back Barry, a song for Manolo's return. All that on Breakfast Time tomorrow from 6.30. Good evening to you. After having been rather unsettled over the weekend, the weather's on the change again.

02:29:10.280 - 02:29:30.280

And it's not going to be long before we have this high pressure back dominating the scene and giving most of us some sunshine. Before that happens though, we have these frontal systems to contend with, and although they're giving a fair bit of rain in some places at the moment, by tomorrow they should have become fairly weak affairs. If we look at the satellite picture and deal with tonight's weather first of all, you can see that there's quite a lot of cloud over the country,

02:29:30.280 - 02:29:44.520

band of it lying through Ireland into Scotland and in that area particularly, but in other western areas later on there'll be some outbreaks of rain. Still a few showers left in the more central parts of the country, but they'll be dying away as the night goes on, leaving behind some patchy fog. So far as far as

02:29:44.520 - 02:29:57.560

tomorrow is concerned, for one reason or other, whether it be the fog or the cloud, most places will start off fairly sort of grey and murky in the morning and there'll be a little rain and drizzle scattered around as well. Any rain and drizzle though in the more central and eastern parts of the country will die

02:29:57.560 - 02:30:10.960

away and very gradually your weather there will brighten up and I think you'll probably find some sunshine before the day's out. The best of the sunshine in the southeastern parts of England. In these more western areas it looks as if it'll stay mostly cloudy, perhaps just here and there a little bit

02:30:10.960 - 02:30:25.640

of brightness, but equally I think you'll run into one or two little bits of rain and drizzle from time to time as well and some mistiness along the coast. And these western areas rather on the cool side, whereas in these more sunny southeastern parts it'll again be quite warm.

02:30:25.640 - 02:30:38.640

[Music] This is BBC One with a new season of drama. [Music] The Dark Side of the Sun.

02:30:38.640 - 02:30:54.640

Patrick Mower is a photographer whose job on the Greek island of Rhodes ends in horror. [Screams] [Music] The return of Juliet Bravo with Anna Carteret as a new inspector soon trapped in a dangerous situation.

02:30:54.640 - 02:31:09.080

You know that I am armed and all is well. I'm going to kill your inspector. Give us a break. Mo's a snooker genius and Mickey's a latter-day spiv who can find an angle in anything.

02:31:09.080 - 02:31:21.880

Thirty-sevves and I'll pay for your tank. Thirty-five and I'll pay for yours. Spyship. When a British trawler is lost at sea, there are some people who are not interested in

02:31:21.880 - 02:31:30.560

the crew's safety. people could do with a little less publicity. So could we. There has to be an inquiry.

02:31:30.560 - 02:31:43.680

And by the sword divided, in the midst of happiness, a family is split in two by the English Civil War. What makes you so glum? The loss of a daughter or the state of England, friend?

02:31:43.680 - 02:32:11.720

A new season of drama on BBC One. The first semi-final of the BBC Television International Sheepdog Championship begins shortly on BBC Two. BBC One's Monday film at 9.55 is Cross of Iron, a dark, bloody picture of obsession and war made by Sam Peckinpah. But now, we look back 15 years to the night of the 20th of August, 1968.

02:32:11.720 - 02:32:35.880

(plane engine roaring) (radio broadcasts in foreign language) The voice of Radio Prague announcing to the world that troops from the Warsaw Pact

02:32:35.880 - 02:33:01.300

had invaded Czechoslovakia. (tanks rumbling) As the tanks closed in on the radio headquarters, the broadcasters, as a last free gesture,

02:33:01.300 - 02:33:27.780

played their country's national anthem. ♪ (ominous music) (gunshot) (gunshot)

02:33:27.780 - 02:33:55.060

(water splashing) [gunshots] The Czechoslovak National Anthem, almost blotted out at times by the sound of Russian machine guns, broadcast by Radio Prague exactly as it happened,

02:33:55.060 - 02:34:14.320

and picked up here in Vienna, at the headquarters of the Austrian Broadcasting Service, just across the border in the early hours of Wednesday, August the 21st, 1968. Radio and television had witnessed the birth of the Prague Spring, had actually helped it to happen. Now they were showing the world the death of the Prague Spring.

02:34:14.320 - 02:34:34.460

The Austrians kept their equipment going 24 hours a day, recording every picture that came out of Czechoslovakia. Pictures that were obtained by the courage of the broadcasters and the cameramen in Czechoslovakia itself. Pictures that that showed for the first time the invasion of a country live as it took place.

02:34:34.460 - 02:34:54.080

From first light on the 21st, the cameras were out on the streets in their dozens, recording every incident. The first battle of the morning was for the radio station. At 7.15 the Soviet troops made a dash through the streets to capture it.

02:34:54.080 - 02:35:09.460

Inside the radio station the broadcasters were already at their posts and they refused to be dislodged. - You are listening to the legal free radio station (speaking in foreign language)

02:35:09.460 - 02:35:24.060

We appeal to all radio stations in Romania, Yugoslavia. Please inform about the situation in the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic. Please transmit all calls in Romanian, Polish,

02:35:24.060 - 02:35:48.760

German, Hungarian, Bulgarian, French, English, Italian. Please, let the whole world know the truth. (gunshots) - Please don't, don't you see the honesty?

02:35:48.760 - 02:36:02.900

(guns firing) The people of Prague had got there first. The area was blocked by abandoned buses and trams serving as impromptu barricades.

02:36:02.900 - 02:36:22.760

(airplane engine roaring) The battle raged all morning, if it can be called a battle when only one side did the fighting.

02:36:22.760 - 02:36:31.140

And by now the radio station, which the Russians were denouncing as illegal, had coined a new slogan, "Be with us, we are with you."

02:36:31.140 - 02:37:02.980

(dramatic music) (people screaming) The broadcasters finally had to retreat in face of the overwhelming odds,

02:37:02.980 - 02:37:12.780

But they didn't give up. Soon there were no fewer than 11 television stations operating clandestinely in Czechoslovakia, moving from office to office and flat to flat,

02:37:12.780 - 02:37:28.220

staying on the air through small miracles of engineering and improvisation. (speaking in foreign language) And the broadcasters themselves

02:37:28.220 - 02:37:37.500

kept going to the point of exhaustion, continually repeating the legal government's condemnation of the Soviet occupation that was taking place in the streets outside.

02:37:37.500 - 02:38:02.900

The Russians' failure to secure the radio station at once was the only serious lapse in what was otherwise a remarkable piece of military planning.

02:38:02.900 - 02:38:28.340

(guns firing) (explosion booms) (water splashes) (gun fires)

02:38:28.340 - 02:38:37.780

(gunshots) (men shouting) (explosion) (gunshots)

02:38:37.780 - 02:39:15.860

(gunshots) Within hours, the city was in the total grip of the invaders. They took over everything, every government building, every factory, almost every street corner,

02:39:15.860 - 02:39:25.220

not to administer the country, but simply to crush out any opposition in it. The government, which had already ordered the Czechoslovak army to remain in barracks,

02:39:25.220 - 02:39:35.600

also appealed to the people not to fight back. For the most part, the call was heeded. As it was, several dozen Soviet soldiers were wounded and some may have been killed.

02:39:36.840 - 02:39:49.260

In the battle for the radio station, at least five Czechs were killed and around 65 injured. The dead were treated like martyrs. (airplane engine roaring)

02:39:49.260 - 02:40:19.660

(sirens blaring) The Pragas found the soldiers knew almost nothing of where they were or what they were doing. Many of them were shaken by their confrontations

02:40:19.660 - 02:40:27.860

with ordinary people, people who had an historical affection for Russians and who weren't afraid to argue with them about what they were doing.

02:40:27.860 - 02:40:50.240

- I have been spoken with many Russian soldiers. The first day was really very interesting. You could see all people standing around the tanks and try to explain to these young boys,

02:40:50.240 - 02:41:01.660

to these soldiers that nobody want them here in Czechoslovakia, that we were happy in this situation in our republic, that we were free, we felt freedom,

02:41:01.660 - 02:41:15.640

but they said that there was a counter-revolution and you can't explain them anything. They are like the war. - The other main battleground was Wenceslas Square,

02:41:15.640 - 02:41:29.300

in the heart of Prague. The students held vigil there under Wenceslas' statue. There were sudden outbreaks of violence as the tanks came to try to dislodge the students.

02:41:29.300 - 02:41:38.660

The newspaper, Rudé Pravo, now underground, was distributed around the city. Abroad, there was angry condemnation. And the West saw what was happening

02:41:38.660 - 02:41:52.860

as an effort by the Russians to stamp out a serious political threat to their control over Eastern Europe. When the Russians came to show their version of events in a television documentary they made to explain to their own people why they'd invaded,

02:41:52.860 - 02:42:11.860

they didn't talk about the political threat naturally enough. They concentrated instead on the military dangers which they thought might arise. They used a map to show how, if Czechoslovakia had been allowed just to drift away from the Soviet bloc, it would leave NATO an open corridor from West Germany to attack the Soviet border itself.

02:42:11.860 - 02:42:38.100

The message of the documentary was clear, as these extracts show. The West had been trying to penetrate Czechoslovakia and neutralise it. The reformers in Prague were leaving their country defenceless against the aggressors who wanted to roll back the communist frontiers.

02:42:38.100 - 02:42:58.220

To underline the point, Czech soldiers themselves are shown here dismantling defenses on the West German border. The program treats the Soviet invasion

02:42:58.220 - 02:43:08.380

as another liberation, like the one in 1945. Only this time, the people of Czechoslovakia are being liberated not from the Nazis, but from counter-revolutionaries within.

02:43:08.380 - 02:43:21.040

(speaking in foreign language) [shouting] [cheering] (crowd cheering)

02:43:21.500 - 02:44:01.120

(man speaking in foreign language) - The official justification was put out by the Russians themselves was that their tanks had been called in by loyal Czechoslovak communists because the Czechoslovak people were being manipulated by political forces they didn't

02:44:01.120 - 02:44:21.520

understand bourgeois nationalism and fascism. The fact is the Russians had invaded Czechoslovakia as a last despairing resort. Things had moved so fast in the previous eight months that they'd had been taken by surprise. But now, looking back, it's clear that Czechoslovakia's liberalization

02:44:21.520 - 02:44:36.840

had begun years before, at the start of the 1960s, and that big changes had begun to take place quietly and without being noticed, either in the West or in Moscow. And what we call the Prague Spring had in fact started to blossom openly

02:44:36.840 - 02:44:50.000

only in the midwinter of 1967. That was when Antonín Novotný, the old party leader, inflexible and discredited, was fighting to keep his job. Leonid Brezhnev, watching from the sidelines,

02:44:50.000 - 02:45:00.160

refused to step in and help him. The way was clear for a new man. Alexander Dubcek was an unassuming 46-year-old from Slovakia.

02:45:00.160 - 02:45:13.120

He represented an alliance between the Slovaks, who felt they'd had a bad deal from the old regime, and the new reformers. Under him, Prague's winter was over.

02:45:13.120 - 02:45:23.680

People could scarcely believe what was happening. For the first time since the communist takeover, it was possible to behave as they wanted without always having to look over their shoulders.

02:45:23.680 - 02:45:34.400

The government actually encouraged genuine debate and the experience was an exhilarating one. Television became essential watching. Anything could happen.

02:45:34.400 - 02:45:49.840

Interviewers could even corner visiting Soviet leaders. Newspapers were able to print almost everything they wanted and their readers studied what was printed with a will. The new leadership which presided over these changes

02:45:49.840 - 02:45:59.000

was popular in a way no previous communist leaders here had been. There was a genuine warmth in the relationship, and this May Day, for the first time,

02:45:59.000 - 02:46:13.760

no one had to be forced to turn out and celebrate. And the young who pressed enthusiastically of more and more freedom began to feel that the clock could never be turned back again.

02:46:13.760 - 02:46:25.840

There were no forbidden topics, not even the greatest mystery of the communist takeover, how the non-communist foreign minister, Jan Mazarek, had met his death in 1948.

02:46:25.840 - 02:46:37.040

The official version always said he'd thrown himself from the foreign ministry building. But an investigation on television included an interview with his valet

02:46:37.040 - 02:46:49.040

who insisted that there'd been signs of a struggle. (speaking in foreign language) No one had ever seen this kind of journalism before, a state television service suggesting

02:46:49.040 - 02:46:57.760

that the state might have committed murder. Mazarek's housekeeper seemed to confirm it by revealing that she'd seen a bullet hole in his head as his body lay on the ground.

02:46:57.760 - 02:47:10.760

(speaking in foreign language) It had been hidden by a carefully placed fly, she said, at the lying in state. Other victims of the communist past came forward.

02:47:10.760 - 02:47:34.760

The K231 group of political ex-prisoners was formed. Their purpose was to clear their names under the slogan "Let it never happen again". Although the reformers in government wouldn't go so far as to allow a multi-party system, political opposition was taking shape around CAN, the club of committed non-party people.

02:47:34.760 - 02:48:01.260

Little by little, without any real direction, a new kind of politics was developing from all this freedom of speech and freedom of the press. It was a libertarian socialism, where state ownership and state welfare would go hand in hand with real personal freedom. Best summed up in the document "2000 words", it was something of what was already starting to emerge in Czechoslovakia.

02:48:01.260 - 02:48:23.760

But to the Russians, it sounded like the worst kind of counter-revolution. And this is it, the document that alarmed them so much, as it was published in the newspaper "Literarni Listi" on 27th of June 1968. It's really an appeal for government to be made open and accountable.

02:48:23.760 - 02:48:37.760

Let us demand the departure of people who abuse their power, it says. Let us form committees for the defence of free speech. And let us expose informers. Well, the people in the Kremlin and in other Soviet bloc governments who read that

02:48:37.760 - 02:48:51.760

could spot the dangers instantly. It was a fundamental challenge to their own personal positions. What they did first was to find out for themselves what was going on. In mid-May, Alexei Kosygin, the Soviet prime minister,

02:48:51.760 - 02:49:02.760

who was not unsympathetic to the Prague reformers, came to test the waters at Karlovy Vary. He also tested the political waters and told the Czechoslovak leaders he accepted

02:49:02.760 - 02:49:15.760

that each country had the right to do what it wanted. But some people in Moscow had other ideas about dealing with the Czech experiment. The high command of the Warsaw Pact

02:49:15.760 - 02:49:28.940

or Pact decided to hold maneuvers in Czechoslovakia. At that stage, no Soviet troops were stationed permanently in the country, so it was a convenient way of warning the Prague reformers that they might be

02:49:28.940 - 02:49:37.000

brought to heel by force. And the Kremlin hawks were encouraged by the American attitude. Washington made it clear that it was purely up

02:49:37.000 - 02:49:56.000

to the Russians what they did in Czechoslovakia. But Moscow's political leaders still preferred political solution. At Černa nad Tizou on the Slovak border the entire Politburo left Soviet soil for the first time in history to bring the Czechoslovak

02:49:56.000 - 02:50:21.560

leadership into line. But Brezhnev was worried he after all had been the one who had allowed Dubček to come to power. He was fierce and bullying. It was crude power politics. But there was agreement, a final withdrawal of the Soviet troops, an end to attacks on Moscow in the Prague papers.

02:50:21.560 - 02:50:52.920

The deal would be ratified in front of the whole Warsaw Pact in Bratislava three days later. The Czechoslovak leaders waiting for their guests to arrive were optimistic. They felt they'd done well at Chyana, though they knew that other Eastern Bloc leaders, worried about their own positions, were angry with the deal.

02:50:52.920 - 02:51:13.120

Outwardly, Brezhnev was jovial enough, but behind him in Moscow, the campaign against a political solution was growing. Not just the army, but the party bureaucracy and the KGB. But the Bratislava meeting ended in agreement. Czechoslovakia was allowed to go its own way

02:51:13.120 - 02:51:35.400

within limit. Everyone thought the crisis was over and that a political solution had been reached and yet only 17 days later the Russians invaded. So why the complete change of mind? All the signs were that Brezhnev was fighting a losing battle to defend the Bratislava agreement from the people who thought

02:51:35.400 - 02:51:48.240

that only force could settle the problem. It came to a head on August the 16th at at a secret meeting in the Kremlin. By now, only four members of the Politburo, including Brezhnev himself and Kosygin,

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seem to have stood by the Bratislava deal, while about eight were in favor of invading. That night, they were still split. But Brezhnev knew the dangers, and he later

02:51:58.680 - 02:52:07.360

hinted that he could even have been overthrown if he'd continued to stand out. When they went back to the Kremlin the next morning, and the Politburo took the vote, they

02:52:07.360 - 02:52:20.000

reached the unanimity they always prefer. Brezhnev, like the others, agreed that the Czech should be brought to heel by force. What we don't know is how he felt about the decision.

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Two days after the invasion, President Svoboda's plane is escorted into Moscow Airport. To the Kremlin's great embarrassment, the president had refused to sanction

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what the Russians had done, despite immense pressure. Nevertheless, he was received with full honors. The Russians made these pictures available, though it's been suggested that some of them

02:52:43.040 - 02:52:53.120

were filmed during an earlier, more friendly visit. Behind him, Svoboda had left the reformers as prisoners in Czechoslovakia. Hours after the invasion,

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the Russians had handcuffed Dubcek brutally and marched him off to what he himself thought would be his execution. And now Svoboda countered the Soviet ultimatums

02:53:03.840 - 02:53:11.220

with a startling threat. unless there were an acceptable settlement, he would kill himself. And he wouldn't start negotiating

02:53:11.220 - 02:53:23.540

until Dubchek and the whole leadership were released from custody and brought to Moscow as well. Face to face at four days of negotiation in the Kremlin, there was immense pressure on the reformers.

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Soviet troops would stay, many of the reforms were undermined. Dubchek, in a state of near collapse, refused at first to sign.

02:53:32.220 - 02:53:42.920

And one of the Czechs was freed only when the others wouldn't leave without him. Today, very few people at the talks are free to speak about them publicly.

02:53:42.920 - 02:53:54.560

One is Zdeněk Mlinař, then a leading party official, now in exile in Vienna. Through an interpreter, he told me of the tense atmosphere at the talks.

02:54:03.760 - 02:54:17.400

It wasn't really, there were no negotiations. There was only Soviet ultimatum, which the Czechoslovak Presidium had to sign in order to be able to return to Czechoslovakia.

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- What the Russians were offering was no real kind of solution at all, was it? (speaking in foreign language) - 15 years later, it is clear that it wasn't,

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signing this protocol in Moscow wasn't a solution, But at this time it couldn't be clear, and at this time one could hope maybe that there will be an evolution, a progress, a change in Czechoslovakia as well, similar to those in Hungary. So that when you signed, and when Alexander Dubček signed, he was reasonably optimistic still about the future? Yes, certainly we were expecting that also after this protocol we will be able to go

02:55:04.000 - 02:55:25.580

on and do, facilitate some changes, do some changes, do some reforms and can keep our line up to a certain extent. It wasn't to be. Within weeks, the reformers were obliged to sign away

02:55:25.580 - 02:55:38.260

most of what they'd achieved, and Dubček was slowly isolated. Winter brought the worst shock since the invasion. Jan Palach, a 20-year-old philosophy student,

02:55:38.260 - 02:55:52.020

had burned himself alive near the Wenceslas statue as a symbol of protest. 200,000 people came to pay their respects, almost the last big show of feeling

02:55:52.020 - 02:56:05.100

what had been done to Czechoslovakia. Almost, but not quite. Two months later in March, the Czechoslovak ice hockey team

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beat the Russians twice in eight days, and celebrations of savage joy erupted everywhere. But their anti-Soviet anger made it a poor revenge. The Russians argued that it simply showed Dubchek's inability to control the situation.

02:56:25.680 - 02:56:39.680

He was purged and Gustav Husak was sworn in in his place. It was a skilful appointment. Husak had been Dubchek's friend and a reformer until he saw which way the wind was blowing. He still follows the Moscow line unswervingly.

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And Dubchek himself? He was bundled off to Turkey as ambassador, conceivably to tempt him into defecting and thereby discredit his reforms. Instead, he went back to his old house in Bratislava. These surreptitious pictures are probably the last to be taken of him

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as he walks into the office of the West Slovak Forestry Commission. He worked there until November 1981 in charge of transport, a non-person followed everywhere by two security men. Nowadays he's retired.

02:57:10.560 - 02:57:27.800

No one wants to talk about him in Czechoslovakia anymore. He was the leader who failed. Seen from across the Austrian border, Czechoslovakia today is a country cut off from the West by an elaborate frontier designed to keep its inhabitants in rather than foreigners out.

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And behind the barbed wire, the economy is in increasing trouble. Inflation is growing and life is drab. At first, the men whom the Russian tanks had put into power in Prague offered their people an unspoken bargain.

02:57:41.800 - 02:57:55.800

If they'd keep quiet politically and accept what had happened, The government would ensure that they had their fair share of the good things of life. For a dozen years or so it worked. Vast suburbs like this one in Bratislava sprang up.

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But in the last few years the bargain has started to fall apart. Czechoslovakia has never recovered from the trauma of 1968 and today it gives the impression of a country merely going through the motions. Before the war it was richer than Switzerland.

02:58:15.300 - 02:58:29.300

now it's losing its place even within the Eastern Bloc but on the whole the Russians must feel that their intervention was worth it it brought peace in Eastern Europe for 12 years until solidarity in Poland in 1980

02:58:29.300 - 02:58:41.300

and in Czechoslovakia itself, even now to this day there have been almost no political stirrings there were some a couple of months ago during the World Assembly for Peace in Prague

02:58:41.300 - 02:58:55.540

the dissident intellectuals of the Charter 77 group took advantage of the presence of Western correspondents who covered it and they came out briefly into the open to meet us. But very few people have this kind of courage

02:58:55.540 - 02:59:09.780

and the full resources of the secret police are used against those who do. Očička, the current Czech slang calls them, little eyes, and they're everywhere, the best and perhaps proportionately the biggest security service

02:59:09.780 - 02:59:33.340

in the Communist bloc. (siren blaring) Other people make their protest more obliquely. This group, for instance, refuses to put words to its songs

02:59:33.340 - 02:59:46.640

because the words would have to be passed by the censors. (siren blaring) (cows mooing) Like the country as a whole,

02:59:46.640 - 02:59:56.740

the group accepts the rules because it can't change them, but it still maintains a core of independence deep down, which can't be surrendered. (cows mooing)

02:59:56.740 - 03:00:42.440

[SIREN] In 1968, Czechs and Slovaks also made their protests loud but passive. Would it have ended any differently if they'd met force with force? Hungarians, Poles and East Germans all took on the Russians over the past 30 years,

03:00:42.440 - 03:01:00.840

but they're still just as much in the Soviet camp as ever. In Czechoslovakia, the people didn't think there was a need to fight. They thought that because political freedom had taken root, Nothing could stop it growing, but the appeal to reason and decency was the only defence they needed.

03:01:00.840 - 03:01:24.640

You say to them, "Why you came? You must see that there is no counter-revolution, that nobody wants you, that nobody needs your help." No, I'm your friend, I'm the brother, and I came to make freedom, I came to make order in your country. and we said that the brothers and the friends couldn't come on tanks,

03:01:24.640 - 03:02:13.280

but they don't understand. [BLANK_AUDIO] [MUSIC] And there's an article about the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia written by John Simpson

03:02:13.280 - 03:02:25.920

in the current edition of The Listener magazine. This Thursday on BBC One, Secrets, the first of four films questioning official secrecy in Britain today. I'd more or less forever.

03:02:25.920 - 03:02:54.100

If the net curtain has become the hallmark of privacy at home, can it be mere coincidence that white-hall windows are thick with the things too? And there's an article about the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia written by John Simpson in the current edition of The Listener magazine.

03:02:54.100 - 03:03:07.500

This Thursday on BBC One, Secrets, the first of four films questioning official secrecy in Britain today. I'd more or less forever. If the net curtain has become the hallmark of privacy at home,

03:03:07.500 - 03:03:48.080

can it be mere coincidence that white-hall windows are thick with the things too? [no audio] [yelling, clapping, pounding on fire] [yelling, clapping, pounding on fire]

03:03:48.080 - 03:04:17.960

(men shouting) - Come in. You know, once in the brown shirts, they want the Nazis to run our country.

03:04:17.960 - 03:04:30.440

The other wants the communists to run our country. Three times now, the same argument in the same street. One year. Are you a communist?

03:04:30.440 - 03:04:36.080

- No, I'm not. - Nazi? - No. - What are you?

03:04:36.080 - 03:04:42.440

- I'm confused. - Confused? Ah, that's good. See, they're not confused, huh?

03:04:42.440 - 03:04:50.920

They know exactly what they want. They want to kill each other. night and day. We are not a nation anymore.

03:04:50.920 - 03:05:07.320

We are a monotony of chaos. [Whistle] [BLANK_AUDIO]