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-Albert. -It's got an A. -A. It looked like an O to me. -H-A-L.

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-It's probably my writing. -Albert, it's your writing, Nancy. -I apologize. I have terrible handwriting.

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You're online, aren't you? -Mm-hmm. -You have an email. -I had that before I leave.

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OK. OK, it's off. I'm one of the type of people, you put a microphone in front of them and go "Ahh." [Laughter.]

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You're soon going to forget that microphone's even there. I'm Deanie Parish. Today we're interviewing Norma Penny Halberg. She was a WASP, Class 44W6.

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We are in her home in Palm Coast, Florida. Today is the 23rd of April, 2003. All right, Penny, if you will start off by giving us your full name and when and where you were born.

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Norma Halberg. Penny is my nickname. That's what everybody calls me. I was born in Kansas City, Missouri, on April 25, 1923.

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Okay. Penny, tell me about your mom. What was your mom like? My mother was a wonderful lady.

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She was a very warm woman. Everyone absolutely loved her. I remember one time I told my mother, I said, I had done, I can't recall just exactly how it happened,

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But I said, "Mother, are you sure they didn't get the babies mixed up when we were in the hospital?" And she said, "Sometimes I wonder about that." I could never be as good and as sweet as she was.

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Right. And your dad? I never knew my real father. I met him for the first time when I was 20 years old, but I had a wonderful stepdad.

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Okay, tell me about him. Well, he was a very, very likable person. He was a welder and both of my parents were the type of people, if somebody dropped in around dinner time, stay for dinner. It didn't matter that we didn't have enough. I mean, she'd open up another can of vegetables and

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make it do, and everybody loved their hospitality. Right. Did you have siblings? No. For a while I had a couple of cousins that lived with us. Okay. Were they your age?

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One was a year and a half younger than I, and one was four, the older was four years older. Okay. When you were growing up, did you live in town or did you live out? We lived all over. I don't think we ever lived any place over three or four years. We moved around quite a bit.

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My dad, if my dad had a job in one area, we moved to that area. And if that job folded and he got a job in the other end of town, then we moved there. Tell me about your grandparents. My grandfather, what I remember of him was he was a fiddler.

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He loved to play the fiddle, and I don't mean violin, I mean fiddle. And it was fun to listen to him, but he'd tap his foot while he was playing, like this. he stepped on his foot, oh, he stopped playing. He couldn't play. And my grandparents had been divorced for several years.

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Were these your mom's parents? Those were my mother's parents. And my real father, I never knew his family at all. I didn't meet them until I was in my twenties. - Right, and your stepfather's parents,

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were you close to them? - Not particularly. My grandmother, my maternal grandmother, I was. She had been remarried for several years

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to a man that worked on the railroad, but she lived in Texas, and it wasn't until she was much older that she came to California and lived with us. Where did you start school?

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I'm sorry? Where did you start to school? I went to school in Los Angeles, California. At one point during the Depression, we moved to Kingman, Arizona for about a year, but

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mostly I grew up in Los Angeles. When you moved to California, how did you get there? Did you have a car or a truck? Oh, I moved there when I was... I mean, because I was born in Missouri. When I was a baby, my mother had moved to California.

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Okay. And when you were in California, where did you live? Did you live in a town? Los Angeles. Okay. Do you recall starting to school? Yes, we lived in Catalina Island for a while and I started kindergarten there.

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Was that close enough for you to walk? Yes, we walked. No, we walked partway and then we took a bus. I don't recall how far it was.

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I think the school was in Avalon and we lived out on a place called Pebbly Beach. I think we lived there about a year. When you moved to California and your dad was no longer with you, how could your mother support you?

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My mother took care of most of the children, myself and my cousins. We lived with cousins and aunts, and Mother was always the one that took care of the children. all the kids loved her. So other members of the family would be working. And then mother remarried and married my dad before I was seven years old.

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And when I say dad I'm referring to my stepfather. My father I refer to as my father. Okay and then after she married him did you stay in California? We stayed in California for a while, but that was during the Depression. During that time we went to Kingman, Arizona for a year, where my dad picked up any kind

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of job he could get. Did your cousins go with you? Not at first, but they came later. One of my aunts brought them to us, and so I think for a number of months they stayed

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with us before we returned to California. Okay. Were their parents not alive or? Yes, they were, but they were all, the older girl, her parents were in Kansas City and it's always amazing to me why she ended up with aunts and uncles who raised her. Do you remember in your very early years what games you played? Oh, the

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usual childhood games, you know, jacks and even marbles and outdoor games like children did at that time, like hide in the seat and kick the can and we didn't have TV and you know children were outside playing, particularly in the early evening, and my parents used to come out and play with us and they were

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one of the few parents that was out there playing kick the can with the kids. What kind of a disciplinarian was your mom? Was she strict with you? pretty strict and she was the one that disciplined me. Dad never did. Then you moved to Kingman and stayed a year and then you moved back to the same

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place? No, it was all in Los Angeles but we, it wasn't like moving back to a home because we lived in rented homes. Okay, how old were you then when you moved back. Were you still in elementary? About, yes, eight or nine years old. Okay. Do you recall any of your teachers in elementary school? Did they make an

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impression? Only one in the eighth grade, who was my eighth grade teacher, and he made quite an impression on me. His name was Mr. Rogers, and I started high school when I was twelve, and if I had trouble I could go back to Mr. Rogers and he would help me out. But I was quite—I was about a year younger than the other students.

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What did he teach? Do you recall? Oh, he taught the whole eighth grade. Yes, he taught the whole eighth grade. When you started to high school, was that near close enough that you could walk? Lila: I walked, but it was many, many blocks.

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I know people talk about when I was a child, I had to walk to school. We lived on 108th Street. I think Fremont High School was about 70th or 68th, something like that. It was a very, very long walk.

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And if you took the bus, it would only go halfway, and then you'd have to take another bus the other way, which was another fare. didn't have transfers between those two types of transportation, so kids ended up walking to school. When you were in school, what activities, did your mother have outside activities that she enjoyed?

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No, my mother was pretty much a housewife. Okay. Do you recall any organizations or anything that either she or your stepfather belonged to. No. They had a lot of friends but there was no organized clubs or activities. In high school, what were your ambitions?

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Well, my ambition had always been to be a pilot. There wasn't anything I could take in high school that would further that ambition. and it was always, you know, one of those dreams. I remember, I think, when I was a senior, one of my classes, we were all supposed to give a speech on what I would like to do with my life, you know, what I would like to be, and that's what

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I said I would like to be a pilot, and I put forth some of the jobs that pilots could hold, none of them being military. You know, crop duster and things like that, but the military at that time was something completely beyond.

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>> Do you know what gave you that dream? >> I beg your pardon? >> What gave you that dream to be a pilot? What was your first experience with air?

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I think from the time, you know, when I was a child, when I first saw an airplane. I remember when we were in Arizona, a helicopter landed close, on a field close to town. Everybody in the town went out to see this helicopter. I mean, we were all just, you know, completely amazed.

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This was a great experience. people have asked me that before, you know, "What made you want to be a pilot?" They accept the fact that little boys wanted to be pilots. Well, why not little girls? I mean, I had the same dream. I wanted to be a pilot. It was no different

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from little boys that wanted to grow up and be a pilot. Did you know of any females who were pilots? None. Okay.

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When you graduated from high school, now let me back up and ask, what was your social life like in high school? I wasn't active in school organizations. I mean, I belonged to a couple of clubs that you have in high school, but I wasn't, I was a very shy person. I wasn't particularly outgoing at all. How about any sports? Were you interested in sports at all?

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No. So when you graduated, did you have a prom? Yes. Did you go to the prom?

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No, I didn't even go to prom. I don't think I dated over once or twice in high school. I was very shy, and I was younger than my classmates. It wasn't until I started to Los Angeles City College and I blossomed out, discovered boys.

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Before your high school graduation, did you have caps and gowns? I'm sorry, I'm having trouble hearing you. Have caps and gowns when you graduated? Yes.

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About how large was your high school? How many in your graduating class? There were 800 people, students in my graduating class. This was a very large high school.

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I think the whole high school had 3,200 or 3,600 students. was in Los Angeles with very large classes and very large high schools. Penny, when you were growing up, what was a Christmas like in your home? Oh, Christmas was a time for all of the family to get together. We had aunts and

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uncles and cousins, large extended family. Even though I didn't have siblings, I did have numerous cousins and we always got together at Christmas time. It was a very joyous holiday. My family wasn't particularly religious, so it wasn't a matter of going to mass or going to church. A typical American holiday with large family gatherings.

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Okay. Would they come to your house? Usually. Okay. Would you have a Christmas tree? Oh, yes.

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recall decorating that tree or did the parents do it? Yes. When I was growing up we didn't have much money. We had practically no money. We used to wait until the last minute to get the Christmas tree because you get it much less expensively and it was usually on Christmas Eve that we

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decorated the Christmas tree. And when you were small did you believe in Santa Claus? as all very small children do, but that didn't last for too long. [Laughs]

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Right. When you graduated from high school, what were your goals? I suppose I wanted to go on to college. I hadn't taken the necessary courses in high school because We didn't think there would be money for me to go to college.

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Well, at the time, I did graduate from high school. We could eke out a college. So I started to Los Angeles City College, where I was making up some of the courses

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that I hadn't taken in high school because I'd taken a business course. And I went about two years. Did you still live at home?

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>> I lived at home, yes. >> And commute? >> Uh-huh. >> Okay. And at that time, do you still have friends

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that you made in college? Did you make lasting friendships? >> In where? >> At college?

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>> No. >> No? >> No, I don't think so. >> Okay.

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Well, tell me how you sprouted out. >> I think because of the fact that we moved so much. It wasn't that we lived in a neighborhood, you know, that I was raised in one neighborhood for all the time I was growing up.

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We would live one place for a couple of years and then we'd move to another place and live a couple of years. So you really didn't make lasting friendships that way. So most of my friends were my family.

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And when I was going to college, or growing up, I had friends, but they weren't friends that I'd last, that lasted into my adulthood. Right. When you were, when you went to college, did you work part-time to help?

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Yes. Okay. Do you recall what you did? Oh, I worked in a malt shop across the street

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from the college, and waitress work. I don't think anyone who isn't very wealthy in the United States goes to college without working as a waitress. Do you recall where you were when

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you heard about Pearl Harbor? I remember, yes, I was home, and I remember hearing it on the radio. Tell me how you became involved in flying. Can we cut this off for a minute?

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And then when did you start learning to fly? Well, it was during wartime, of course, and I met a pilot. And, you know, I say, "Oh, I always wanted to fly. I always wanted to be a pilot."

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He said, "Well, you know, I have a friend that is learning to fly, and she wants to go into the WASP." And I said, "What's the WASP?" And he said, "Well, it's an organization for women pilots."

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And so he gave me the name of his friend and I called her and she said, told me that there were a number of people that would drive to Blythe each Saturday night and drive back on Sunday and take flying lessons. You couldn't fly in Los Angeles during wartime and there were, the two closest places were

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Blythe, California, and I think Old Pine Top or something like Pine Bluff, another place in California. So anyway, I made arrangements to meet these people, and I started going to Blythe. At that time, I had quit college and I was working at Barker Brothers as a salesperson

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and an interior decorator. So I got, I made pretty good money, but I'd go down each, each Saturday. We would leave about midnight, a whole car full of us. We'd drive all night to get to Bly.

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We'd all get in an hour's flying on Sunday, and then Sunday night we'd drive all the way back to Los Angeles and get up and go to work the next morning. We worked six days a week at that time. this was the only way we could get any flying done. And I could only afford, you

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know, one hour a week and that was really quite a bit for my budget. So I finally made arrangements to move to Blythe and work for my flying time. So I moved down there. I worked, if you could call this an airport, it was kind of a wide spot in and, you know, a few cubs and Taylor Crafts and Lescombs and then an old shack

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where they sold sandwiches and soft drinks and beer and there was a gas station there that you had to pump the gas. So I worked for them for—I'd pump gas, I'd make sandwiches, work on the planes, anything that needed to be done. and I got my room board and an hour's flying time a day. So this worked out fine for me.

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It was very primitive living and when I say room, they had a couple of old shacks there with some cots and so we used to pull the cots out in the desert and sleep under the stars. No air conditioning and this is the middle of the desert. But, you know, we were all having a great time. Everybody in Blythe was interested in flying. There was a Blythe Air Force air base there.

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There was a Morton's Primary School, and then two or three private airports where everybody was learning to fly. Did some of the other girls do the same thing? Yes.

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What kind of airplane did you start learning to fly in? Taylorcraft and Cubs and Luscombe's. Tell me about the first time you went up. How did you feel? Oh, I was thrilled to death. I thought, "This is the ultimate experience."

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Did that particular instructor then become your instructor? That instructor wasn't worth... I'm trying to think of a word without using a four-letter word. I think for the first six hours, he just sat there and wanted to talk. So I didn't learn anything from him, and I finally, after six hours, I figured, you know, I should really be learning more than I am.

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I talked to the owner of the airport and he said, "Let me give you to," I think his name was Lewinsky, and he was a very good pilot and had a reputation for being extremely tight, which he was, but he was a good pilot. He finally took over my lessons and I was able to solo in a few more hours.

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Let me ask you, what did your mom think about your flying? Oh, she thought it was great. Somebody asked her one time, "Aren't you worried when Penny's up flying?" She said, "No, only when she's driving."

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Tell me about your solo flight. You know, I really don't remember much about it. I know that I was probably scared and exhilarated, certainly. It was just very exciting, but I do not remember any of the details.

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Kelly: While you were learning to fly, did anything unusual happen? Did you get lost? One of the other girls and I decided to go out and shoot landings together. We were both student pilots and weren't supposed to be flying together.

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I was barefoot and she was wearing a pair of tennis shoes, both shorts, and we went out to what we called our auxiliary field, which was just a little spot on the desert, just long enough that you could land a plane. It was all bumpy. It wasn't really a landing strip, but that's where the instructors would take us to practice landings. So Sherry and

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I got this cub and we went out and started shooting landings. Well, one time we forgot who was landing the plane. She thought I was landing it. I thought she was landing it. As a result, we kind of came in hard and smashed the landing gear. It was just at dusk, and here we are miles from the highway. So we knew which direction the highway was, so we started

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walking, and my feet were being torn up, so Sherry had let me wear the shoes for a while and she'd go barefoot, and I'd give them back and I'd go barefoot. It took us four hours walking across the desert in the middle of the night before we hit the highway, and we were going to tell Ed, the airport manager, that we were

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practicing landings and the engine quit on takeoff, and we were hoping that he would not come out and look at it himself, that he would send one of the fellows out to look, you know, to haul the plane back, but when we came back that night, everybody was so happy to see us, you know, they thought we'd crashed

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someplace. So we got back to the highway and hitchhiked, picked up by a sounded plausible to him, but we get back to the airport, we tell this story, and Ed didn't say anything to us that night because he was too happy to see that we were okay, but the next day, I think he got a little suspicious, and he went out

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to look at the damage to the aircraft. Well, you just have to look at it, you knew what happened, so we both got hell for that, because we weren't even supposed to be flying together. But then he could have gotten in trouble because he let us. Right. While you were taking lessons, did you know any girls that went into the WASP training?

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Yes. You know, a few of us that were taking lessons there went into the WASP training. Okay. But before you went in, had some of the girls already been accepted? Yes. Okay.

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Were you aware of what the WASP, what the program was all about? At that point, yes, because I think I started flying in about March and sometime that summer the recruiter for the WASP was in Los Angeles and a number of us went down and I was accepted into the WASP, but the class I was assigned to started in January, so I had a number of

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months that I was still flying before I could get in. What requirements? Do you recall the requirements in order to be able to get into the program? At that time it was, I think, they had lowered it to 35 hours.

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I had, by the time I went in, of course I had about 80 hours. And then, did you have to take a physical? Yes. Where did you take that?

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Someplace in Los Angeles. I know I didn't have any trouble. Then did you have to have an interview with one of the staff from the training program? Well, this lady that came through, I don't recall her name.

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She may have been one of the older WASPs, but yes, I had an interview with her. Then how were you notified? By mail in Los Angeles. They had my Los Angeles address.

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Then did you stay out at that little airport, live out there until you left for the WASP? Yes, I lived out there until they closed the field until I could get the boulders out of the runway and the holes out of the runway. So I went to work at the Blyth Army Air Force Base driving a truck.

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I thought that would be more fun than working in an office. Right, and during the time that you were waiting, then you drove the truck and just kept flying? No, I wasn't flying. They had closed the airport. So I guess I did get a few hours then at another airport there, because they had a few, I think there were about three

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private airports there. DC: Okay. And what did your mom think about your going into formal training? RW: I think she was quite pleased for me. She was never frightened of my flying, and She knew how excited I was about it.

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At that time, what did you think the purpose of the WASP was? Well, it had—most of the pilots, the male pilots, were going overseas. I felt very patriotic about it. we're going to fill in, fill the void through all the things locally in the

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United States that the male pilots would have done. Okay, when you left to go to Sweetwater, did some of, were some of the other girls going at the same time? Yes, there was, there were two other girls from Blythe that went at the same time. Okay, how did you get to Sweetwater? I took the train.

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Train. Give me your first impressions when you got off the train in Sweetwater. There was a blizzard. I'm from Southern California. And you arrived in January? In January, yes.

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Do you recall how you got from the train station out to the field? You know, I don't, I really don't know, I imagine, I don't know whether we took a taxi or whether somebody picked us up. I just...

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Okay, describe for me the field where you, when you went out to the field to live for seven months. Oh, it looked very Spartan, and that's all right. I just spent very spartan time in flight.

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But each of the bays held six girls. Certainly there was nothing luxurious about it, but what it had was what was important to us. had all the planes and the instructors and was giving us an opportunity to do

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what we wanted. So our living quarters weren't that important. Okay, tell me about your bay mates. Well, one of them I remember was from Texas. She was kind of a little girl and she wore cowboy boots. She got up very early in the morning before anybody else.

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and you could hear these cowboy boots clacking across the cement floor. Most of the girls got along very well and there was a lot of camaraderie. It was a fun time. Do you recall what some of the other girls, what their background was as far as their working? I think it was a mix. Some of the girls

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came from certainly more affluent families than I did, probably most of them, but there was just a mix of all kinds of girls and backgrounds and it was it was fun. We all got along well. There were, I can't remember any animosity between the girls. I'm sure there are some that you like

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better than others, but it was just something we all had the same goals. We all were interested in the same thing. So that would, that in itself would bring women together. Okay. Describe what a typical day would be like for you in training. Well, say getting up very early in the morning, falling out, marching to

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the bathhall, and then marching back again. They reporting to the airfield, to the field for, you know, you flew all morning, then you go back, have lunch, change your clothes, go in for ground school in the afternoon, and that continued until late afternoon. It was a very busy time, and then after dinner, I

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Tell me about some of your ground school classes. I just remember I had a one subject, radio. I remember somebody coming and giving a lecture to some of us on the radio, which is something I have never understood.

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He would say, he'd explain something and he'd say, "You see what I'm saying, don't you?" There were a bunch of blank faces staring up at him. I had no clue as to what he was saying. Most of the subjects were easy enough, navigating weather, engines.

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There were a couple of subjects that were difficult for me. One was Morse code. I had a terrible time getting past enough on that. What was the first airplane you flew at Avenger? PT-17.

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Could you tell me about your instructor? Do you recall? I had—I remember I had—I don't even remember his name, but I think it was McClain. Very nice man, very thorough. I felt very relaxed with him.

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I would say he was one of the better instructors. Do you recall your solo flight in the 17th? LG: No. DC: Nothing unusual?

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LG: There's a lot of things I just don't recall. It's been a few years ago. DC: When you first started flying, did you fly in the snow? Did it snow after you got there?

00:39:31.120 - 00:39:50.320

Yes, but I can't recall that the—I don't think that there was snow on the runways. I think they must have cleared it off or something. I don't ever remember having to land in the snow. I just remember that it was very, very cold, and particularly from someone who's used

00:39:50.440 - 00:40:05.740

to hot weather. Tell me about some of the other weather problems on that field. Laney: I can't recall anything unusual. Kelly: Sand?

00:40:06.260 - 00:40:19.880

Laney: Oh, yes. Now that you mention it, a lot of blowing sand. When the weather warmed up, we had the sand. That was West Texas, after all.

00:40:22.540 - 00:40:44.940

when you were in primary, do you recall how many students your instructor had beside you? I don't really remember, but I don't think there were, there couldn't have been too many because we all had the usual amount of time and everything was well organized. It went off like clockwork, so I mean you knew whether

00:40:44.940 - 00:40:59.020

you were the third student, you could spend the first couple of hours studying. Do you remember what primarily you learned in primary training? To land that steerman. [Laughter]

00:41:00.760 - 00:41:06.840

Okay. She's got to change the tape. Okay, you're doing good. How do you feel? Okay.

00:41:06.980 - 00:41:16.160

Okay, you're doing great. I'm going to change the tape. Good. Okay, I'm rolling the--you ready?

00:41:18.600 - 00:41:29.780

Okay. Okay, Penny, when you were flying and it was so cold and you were in an open cockpit, what did you wear? Oh, we wore the heavy winter flying suits.

00:41:30.940 - 00:41:42.360

They were so big, they were so cumbersome, you could hardly walk in them, but they were warm. So we were glad to have them. What did you wear on your feet?

00:41:44.480 - 00:42:02.840

I think we had—I'm not sure. I was thinking that we had boots, but that would be kind of hard to work the controls. So I better say I just don't remember. Okay.

00:42:05.180 - 00:42:19.100

Describe for me the auxiliary fields. What were they used for? I know we had them. practice takeoffs and landings. Okay, and when you would be over at an auxiliary

00:42:19.270 - 00:42:50.400

field and it was so cold, did they have heat? Did you have buildings? I don't remember that. Okay, when you were in primary, did any of your bay mates wash out? Yes. How did that make you feel? To be honest, just thankful it wasn't I mean, you were very sorry for them, but you think, "Oh, God, I'm glad it wasn't

00:42:51.260 - 00:43:07.120

me." Kelly: How many hours did you have to fly in primary, do you recall? Levy: I really don't know that answer. Kelly: Did the girl with the cowboy boots make it through?

00:43:07.550 - 00:43:14.700

Levy: Yes, she did. Kelly: Do you remember her name? Do you recall her name? Yeah, Ava Hamm.

00:43:16.360 - 00:43:27.060

And she went all the way, huh? She went all the way. When you-- while you were in primary, classes would graduate.

00:43:28.040 - 00:43:52.140

Describe what a graduation would be like with you as a trainee. What did you have to do? You mean when the top class was graduating? I don't recall that we had much to do except, I believe we marched in the parade and just

00:43:52.220 - 00:44:02.420

looked with envy on the upperclassmen. Okay. While you were in training, were you aware of what the girls were doing who had already graduated?

00:44:06.620 - 00:44:27.140

Not specifically. We knew that there was ferrying and we knew of a couple of jobs and we knew that some girls were just doing administrative flying and I don't think we knew many of the details. Okay.

00:44:27.870 - 00:44:40.200

While you were at Avenger, did Miss Cochran ever come to visit? She was there for our graduating class. Did you ever meet her personally? Yes.

00:44:43.500 - 00:45:04.020

When you finished primary, then did you have some time off? I believe we had a few days before we started our next class. Did you go someplace or did you stay away? Yeah, I believe we went to San Angelo for a couple of days.

00:45:05.940 - 00:45:23.400

During the time you were at Avenger, did you visit people in Sweetwater, the citizens, any of them in Sweetwater? Lowdermilk Horton The only time I visited was one of my instructor's wives invited us for dinner.

00:45:23.640 - 00:45:37.840

She worked at the control tower, and he was an instructor, and she invited me to dinner on Sunday. Outside of that, no, I didn't. Kelly: Do you recall her name?

00:45:40.260 - 00:46:10.860

Martinez: That's a shame. I don't recall his name. But something very strange happened. After I got out of the WASP, I was working as a control tower operator at the Marine Corps base in Goleta, California, and a soldier was hitchhiking on my way to work, and I picked him up and we started talking, and I told him I was a control tower operator, and he

00:46:10.860 - 00:46:29.720

said his sister-in-law was, and he mentioned that she worked at Sweetwater at the Wasp, and I said, "I'm a former WASP." And he said, "Well, do I look familiar?" And I said, "Yeah, he was the brother of my instructor."

00:46:30.560 - 00:46:56.200

[laughs] So that was an odd experience. >> Yeah. When you finished primary, then what did you do? We took basic training in the AT-6, and that was a big jump.

00:46:56.940 - 00:47:15.220

We looked at that AT-6 and said, "Oh, I'll never learn all those instruments." A wonderful plane. While you were in basic, did you take cross-countries, or was that later on? I think that was later on.

00:47:16.440 - 00:47:44.380

We went from the AT-6 and then right after the PT-17 and then we went to the BT-13 and then back to the AT-6. I think we took instruments in BT-13 and then went back to the AT-6 for cross-country. It's been a while.

00:47:44.500 - 00:47:52.180

My memory isn't what it used to be. [Laughter.] But you do remember you liked the AT-6, huh? Oh, still like it.

00:47:52.440 - 00:48:05.620

Right. What—once it started getting warmer and you no longer used those heavy flying suits, what did you fly in? I have a picture I'll show you.

00:48:07.800 - 00:48:23.680

What we called zoot suits. They were fatigues, several sizes too large. I remember having to pull mine up and tie it around the waist. I don't know who they were made for, but certainly not WASP.

00:48:25.030 - 00:48:50.640

>> As you marched to everything, do you recall any of the songs that you sang? Or do you recall singing as you marched? I knew we did sing at times, and I can't recall which ones. I don't think we sang all the rowdy songs when we were marching.

00:48:51.160 - 00:49:12.000

We did those later, but that's a blank, too. When you were in training, did you have weekends off? How much time did you have off? Well, usually just the day and we'd have to be back in the evening.

00:49:13.560 - 00:49:34.880

What was the transportation like? Well, I had one friend who had a car. That was good transportation. But outside of that, I think they had those trucks of some kind that they transported

00:49:35.120 - 00:50:01.160

us into town. When you finished then your basic training and went into basic, actually, with the BTs learn instruments. What was flying on instruments like to you? Well...

00:50:01.380 - 00:50:29.180

Was that difficult? I can't say it was that difficult. I would say it wasn't as exhilarating as flying because couldn't see anything but those instruments. So you weren't getting this. It was more of a study, you know, you had to keep concentrating on those

00:50:29.400 - 00:50:49.920

instruments and you didn't have this sense of freedom that you had when you were just flying without that cover over the hood over your head. Did anything unusual happen to you or any of your friends when you were in instrument training that you recall?

00:50:54.980 - 00:51:07.560

Levy: No, not that I can recall. Kelly: Okay. When you finished that then and went back into advanced, describe for me one cross-country trip that you took.

00:51:12.980 - 00:51:41.160

Well, the only thing I remember is, there were some other girls and I in the hotel room, and we ordered a bottle of liquor. And, of course, this was a dry county, wherever we were. And the bellhop, bellman, brought this bottle up to us and he said, "I'd better open

00:51:41.160 - 00:51:53.040

it for you ladies." And then he poured out a shot for me. He says, "You can't drink this first shot. It's just pure poison, so I'll get rid of it for you."

00:51:53.040 - 00:52:06.060

And he poured that out and drank it. I don't really recall too much about our time off. That wasn't anything that stuck in my mind. - Right.

00:52:08.920 - 00:52:18.940

Did any, while you were in training, do you recall any accidents? - Oh yes. I had two classmates killed.

00:52:20.480 - 00:52:40.460

One, Marge Edwards, I think was killed on a cross-country flight. That, of course, is devastating to the rest of the class. And then I had another classmate that

00:52:40.460 - 00:52:56.320

was killed at, I think, towards the end of our training. And she and I had the same instructor. In fact, it was the same instructor whose wife had invited me to dinner.

00:53:02.580 - 00:53:16.960

They brought the plane back to the field and it wasn't too far from our bay and we saw this tangled mess of a plane and knew that Libby died in that

00:53:17.020 - 00:53:33.920

and that was really devastating. Do you recall her name? Yes, Lib... I was just looking at it last night. No, I can't recall.

00:53:34.920 - 00:53:44.720

Erickson? Erickson, Lib Erickson. Okay. Were you in the same bay? No, we weren't in the same bay. We had the same instructor.

00:53:45.020 - 00:54:09.060

There were three of us with the same instructor. Do you remember what an impact that had on you? I suppose even more than Marge's death, that you became aware of your mortality. Were you then frightened to fly?

00:54:09.380 - 00:54:42.240

Did it bother you that much? I wasn't frightened to fly, but I remember I was under the Link trainer, I think, the next day, and I started to cry and completely lost control of the link trainer until the instructor came over and opened the lid.

00:54:43.300 - 00:55:02.380

Then he could see I was upset, so he just excused me. "Excuse me, would you turn off that?" I know how you feel, because the other girl was a classmate of mine that she and the Erickson girl collided back in talking to the trainees, and you might have been.

00:55:02.560 - 00:55:41.160

No, she came in three months because you graduated two months after I did. Tell me about what they would do with the wrecked airplanes. Well, I know that they had brought Lib's airplane back and it was close to the-- it was in kind of a graveyard there for airplanes close to the bay where we

00:55:41.200 - 00:56:14.380

could all look at it. Oh, I know one of the things that upset me. I had gone out and I was looking at this wrecked airplane, I found a part of the turbine, a little piece of the white turbine that Lip was wearing, and I think that was--really shook me up. DC: Sure. But the next day you had to go right on flying, right?

00:56:15.200 - 00:56:42.060

Okay. During the time that before you graduated, there was a change in uniforms, right? Tell me about the new uniforms that you got. Oh, our blue uniforms? Well, they were very spiffy. We didn't get those until we graduated. We didn't have uniforms. The only uniform we had before we graduated was just khakis

00:56:42.060 - 00:57:16.220

and white shirt. But yes, when we graduated, then we got those beautiful, you know, what they call San Diego blue slacks and blouse and then the Eisenhower blouse for flying and no, it's a Montgomery jacket, wasn't it? Eisenhower jacket and the Montgomery beret, which I always hated.

00:57:16.920 - 00:57:35.780

I never thought that was very attractive. Anyway, we were very well dressed and it was something to be very proud of. Do you recall Neiman Marcus coming out and fitting you for that uniform? Yes.

00:57:38.060 - 00:57:54.960

When it came time for graduation and you knew you were going to be assigned someplace, did you have a choice of assignments? Well, they had us fill out a form. Do you want to be—what location would you like to be?

00:57:56.800 - 00:58:10.680

What kind of flying would you like to do? Who would you like to be stationed with? Well, my best friend was Marge Hicks. So I put down, "I'd like to be stationed with Marge Hicks.

00:58:11.180 - 00:58:21.360

I'd like to be on the East Coast. I'm from the West Coast, so I wanted to see the East Coast. I'd never been there. And, of course, I want to fly fighter planes."

00:58:21.920 - 00:58:52.920

Well, I got assigned to a basic training in California on the West Coast, not the East Coast. Marge Hicks was assigned to the East Coast. I didn't get any of my choices. I also did not get assigned as a fighter pilot. At your graduation, do you recall any of the celebrities who came for graduation? Any generals or did Miss Cochran come?

00:58:53.180 - 00:59:15.340

Jackie Cochran came and there was... but General Arnold was not there, so whoever was there was not up to the standards of General Arnold. [Laughter] Was there a band? Do you remember a band?

00:59:16.760 - 00:59:27.300

I really don't remember. EC: Okay. When you--after you graduated, then, did you have some time off to go home or do something? RB: Yes.

00:59:27.300 - 00:59:39.460

EC: Tell me about how you felt in that uniform going home. RB: Very, very proud. Those wings, you know, I was--. EC: Okay.

00:59:40.380 - 00:59:56.340

And when your leave time was up, then, where did you report to? Gardner Field in Taft, California. Okay, and what was Gardner's main— It was basic training.

00:59:57.060 - 01:00:13.700

Okay, and what were you assigned to do? Administrative flying for about a week, and then I went into engineering testing. Okay. When you arrived at Gardner, were there already some WASPs there?

01:00:13.880 - 01:00:28.460

Yes. Okay. report to some WASP or the operation? No, I remember—I can't recall the name of the person that you report to, but I had

01:00:28.780 - 01:00:52.380

practiced and practiced all this saluting and three steps forward and salute. I mean, I really sweated this out, you know, and then turn on your heels when you're excused. When I got there, he came forward, shook my hand, "Where have you been? We've been looking for you." I was relieved of all of that.

01:00:53.120 - 01:01:08.780

Were you the only one in your class sent to Gardner? No, I had--there were two other classmates. Dorothy Baumeister, who later was Dorothea Hamilton, and I guess there were--

01:01:12.100 - 01:01:38.020

Who else? Coughlin, another girl by the name of Coughlin. Later on there were other, another WASP from our class, but for most of the time there were three of us. Where did you live? Well, they did not allow us to live in the BOQs on base.

01:01:38.220 - 01:02:15.300

We lived in, off the base, so it was a long walk from the officers club down to the main gate and then a short distance from there it was a building or barracks for civilian employees, a librarian and maybe a nurse or something, but, and the WASP. In looking back through training, is there anything about your training that I've left

01:02:15.440 - 01:02:27.280

out that you would like to tell us about? No. The training was, it was a fun time. It was a strenuous time.

01:02:29.380 - 01:03:05.760

It was, it could be emotionally trying because you wanted so badly to succeed and when you saw your classmates wash out, besides the fact that, you know, a couple of them were killed, the ones that washed out you were very sad for and it was, but it was also very challenging and, as I say, you wanted badly to succeed and it was an exciting time.

01:03:08.890 - 01:03:30.800

Okay, at Gardner, you started off with administrative, do you remember any particular trips that you went on? No, I flew somebody, you know, some officer someplace and back. I really only did that for a few days and then they assigned me to the testing, which I thoroughly enjoyed. That was fun.

01:03:31.240 - 01:03:56.860

Okay. For someone who doesn't know what engineering testing is, why would you test an airplane? Well, say a plane has been on the flight line. It doesn't fly exactly right. A student writes it up, an instructor might check it and he says it doesn't fly properly, it's weighing heavy or something else.

01:03:57.880 - 01:04:27.340

Then we would take the plane and try and find out what's—not exactly what's wrong with it, but you'd go up and you'd do aerobatics. You would wring it out, as we called it, and see what kind of characteristics it had. it had dangerous spin characteristics. Or, if you had a—after an engine overhaul or

01:04:27.420 - 01:04:45.440

something like that, it had to be—the plane had to be tested before it was released to the flight line. So it was an interesting job. It was fun, because we didn't fly just straight and level. While you were at that base, what was your social life like?

01:04:46.230 - 01:04:57.060

Oh, very full. Oh, well, let's talk about that. Okay. A lot more men than women.

01:05:01.110 - 01:05:38.460

And you know, after dinner, you went to the officers' club and you played cards, you talked, couple of drinks and the men that you served with, they were nice people. They were fun to be around. I know that we had bad experiences with congressmen, but the men that we were flying with, I think, were very accepting of the women. I had

01:05:38.280 - 01:06:08.120

no trouble with anyone I flew with. I mean, they didn't try to put me down, they didn't make me feel that I wasn't, you know, one of the other pilots, one of the guys. It was a good, healthy experience. And then, of course, your social life was just that. I mean, you have a lot of young people and you enjoyed each other, you had a good time.

01:06:10.180 - 01:06:49.940

Kelly: How were you notified that when the Wasps were going to be disbanded? Lee: I don't recall whether we were—how it was done. It doesn't matter however it was done, it wasn't good news, it was, that was completely devastating. I, I was in less than a year, just, you know, almost a year, and shortly before that, one of the

01:06:50.160 - 01:07:14.880

women had come around interviewing us for assignment to, you know, other courses and I was supposed to go to B-25 school and then comes to notice that not only am I not going to B-25 school, we're all out. It was, that was very Very disheartening.

01:07:15.490 - 01:07:37.040

Kelly: Did the air base do anything special for the WASP? Klemski: Well, they had what was called, I guess, some cabins up in the mountains in Bishop. Our CO thought, "We'd like to go up there."

01:07:37.040 - 01:07:48.820

There were a whole bunch of people he sent up for R&R. It was freezing, what a miserable place. I mean, he was trying to be nice to us. It was so cold.

01:07:52.060 - 01:08:17.140

We slept in our winter flying suits. It was more punishment than R&R. there was a long ferry trip, and I don't know, we, he asked the boss, some of the bosses, if they'd like to go, so there were about five of us that went on this

01:08:17.720 - 01:08:43.840

ferry trip. This was in December, and there were about 30, 30 of us all together, and they took us up to King City, I believe, and we picked up B-17s and flew them to Florida. Well, this also was, you know, something nice for us. I hope you remember flying a B-17 in the middle of December.

01:08:44.840 - 01:08:56.440

That was a terrible experience. But there again, it was fun. I mean, we were young and we were going different places. and so that was the--

01:08:57.980 - 01:09:04.520

Did you then fly them back? No, we took a train back. A train back. Oh, once a month.

01:09:08.860 - 01:09:41.700

It was--they were so cold, it was so cold that a lot of us bought a piece of chamois and cut eyes and nose and mouth out and we put that under our helmets cover up our face because that open cockpit and the wind was so cold it was just freezing. Okay. So it was a PT-17? Yes. Oh, okay. What did I say? A B-17. Oh. And I wondered about

01:09:41.700 - 01:10:03.460

the open cockpit. I was a stearman. Okay. So you delivered them to Florida. We delivered them to St. Augustine. Well, happy landings. I remember before we got to New Orleans, it had been planned that we were going to have

01:10:04.000 - 01:10:15.900

engine trouble. One person had engine trouble. We all had to stay there because we were together. We had engine trouble in New Orleans, and we got there about 10.30 in the morning.

01:10:17.360 - 01:10:41.460

We were out looking over New Orleans, partying all day, all night long, and then we got in the planes, not all of us, not everybody was that crazy, but some of us did. Then we got in those planes and flew them the rest of the way the next day. It was kind of wild.

01:10:42.320 - 01:10:55.260

You really do not want to stay up all night and fly the next day. That was the first and last time I ever did that. So then you were disbanded. What did you do?

01:10:55.380 - 01:11:10.580

Did you go back home? I went home and then I got a job with the CAA and went to Santa Barbara and worked at the Marine base in Goleta. What were you doing?

01:11:10.880 - 01:11:38.120

control tower operator. Did you go through a course? Well, it was on-the-job training. Okay. How did you enjoy that? Well, that was fun. I mean, you were around airplanes still. You weren't flying, but you were around them, and it was interesting. And it wasn't hectic like it is today. I mean, a control tower operator today,

01:11:38.120 - 01:11:57.940

I mean, it's, I mean, not really be a stressful job, but it, you know, there weren't that many planes and they were more organized. You know, you'd have a flight taking off and a flight coming in, but you didn't have, you know, planes all over the sky like you would in a big airport.

01:11:59.080 - 01:12:24.420

Were there other girls also in the tower? Yes. Mm-hmm. Did you live with someone else? I roomed with another woman who lived with another girl at the control tower. How long did you do that? For about a year. And then what did you do? Well then the war was over and I started ferrying planes from

01:12:25.000 - 01:12:46.700

with a group out of El Monte, California and we might they might pile a bunch of people in the car and we'd drive someplace and pick up planes and then fly them various places. So you were delivering from the factory to the dealer. Okay. Were these mostly training planes? Well, they were mostly small private

01:12:46.800 - 01:13:02.220

planes. Okay. Like Luscombe's and... Were they brand new airplanes? Usually. Okay. And then when you would deliver them, how would you get back? Best you could. [Laughter]

01:13:03.700 - 01:13:09.180

Okay, were there some other girls? On public transportation. Some other girls also? Yes.

01:13:09.240 - 01:13:15.060

And some guys? Guys and women. Right. Then how long did you do that?

01:13:16.640 - 01:13:48.080

I did that for quite a while, and then I realized, you know, there's really not much of a future in this. So I did a few other inconsequential things and then decided to get it. I traveled all over the United States, decided to, I wanted to go overseas so I went to work for a company in Saudi Arabia. Oh wow. What did this company do?

01:13:48.080 - 01:14:22.220

It was a construction company and I had called a RAMCO, Arabian American Oil Company, and see what the requirements were and they said I had to type, I don't know how many, it was faster than I could type and so I thought I won't make it there. So I called this other company that was advertising for men and asked if

01:14:22.320 - 01:14:48.920

they were hiring women and they said yes. So I said, "Well, what are your speed requirements?" "Well, we don't give tests, we just go by your recommendation." So I thought, I'm in. I got some glowing recommendations from and I went over there and I thought if they get me all the way to Arabia they're going to find

01:14:49.240 - 01:15:14.540

something for me to do and they took one horrified look at my typing and made me a payroll clerk which was simple job. Did anyone go with you that you knew or you were all by yourself? Well I was on a, I flew to New York and then there was a plane load of men that were going to Saudi Arabia for a ram call. I was the

01:15:14.540 - 01:15:41.440

woman on the plane. Where did you live when you got there? Well, they had bachelor quarters for, you know, the single women and bachelor quarters for the single men. What was that experience like? Well, when I first got there, as we drove in the main gate, I looked up and there was a hand, withered hand, hanging over the gate.

01:15:42.380 - 01:16:17.520

They'd had a hand cutting, and so it was very, very different from what I, anything I'd ever seen. Was it a real hand? Oh yes, they had, for stealing, they cut off a hand, and some men arrived and they took a look at that hand and they went, they were on the next plane back. But while I was there, they had public beheading.

01:16:18.100 - 01:16:34.940

Now, I did not watch this. Someone tried to show me pictures of this, and I said, "No, thank you. I don't think I care to see them." Public whippings and hand cuttings were not that unusual.

01:16:35.460 - 01:17:00.900

When you were living there, were you allowed to mingle with the local people, or did you stay on a base? We stayed on a base type of thing. The only Arabs we came in contact with were people who worked in lower

01:17:00.900 - 01:17:30.880

capacities, you know, for the construction company and for Aramco. So they weren't the type of people that you would have anything in common with. Now, of course, all that's changed and I have a friend that lives here in the area that just returned from several years in Arabia and they live much differently and, of

01:17:30.880 - 01:17:54.540

people, but at that time it was very isolated. >> When you went into, what town was the city? >> Well, it was Aramco, Daron. >> When you went into their locations, could you wear your own clothes?

01:17:54.540 - 01:18:24.520

was it? Yes, yes. I never, we never wore Islamic garb. We dressed modestly, you know, we didn't and we didn't wear slacks at that time. We didn't wear shorts or anything like that. You wore a modest dress and nothing low-cut or provocative. How did you spend your time when you weren't on the job? Probably socializing

01:18:24.520 - 01:18:32.120

I think. Anything special? No. How long did you stay there?

01:18:33.220 - 01:18:51.240

No, I stayed there for almost a year. Well, then I met a man, and he was going home. So I went back, and we were married. And I went back and lived there and raised my family there.

01:18:53.100 - 01:19:11.340

In Arabia? Arabia until, I guess I lived there from '48 until about 1953, and then we moved to Sumatra, Indonesia. And what was your husband doing?

01:19:11.470 - 01:19:19.440

He was a petroleum engineer. Tell me about your family. What kind of family did you have there? I have three sons.

01:19:26.280 - 01:19:45.180

And we liked Indonesia, we liked Sumatra. We were living in another compound in the middle of the jungle, and it was beautiful there and the people were very nice. Did your children start to school overseas?

01:19:45.760 - 01:20:02.820

Yes. They started to school in Sumatra. Then, eventually, you came back to the States. Lee: Yes, after I left Indonesia, I went to Dhaka, which at that time was East Pakistan.

01:20:04.100 - 01:20:22.100

I lived there for a while. Then in about 1960, I came back to the States. My husband and I were divorced. When you were overseas and the children were in school, how did you spend your time?

01:20:24.140 - 01:20:48.520

That's the reason we're divorced. There wasn't really that much to do. I mean, he played a lot of bridge and all there were times you tried to get, do some kind of volunteer work but it really never never worked out in a foreign

01:20:49.260 - 01:21:17.560

country and so it was I think for an American woman it was kind of a useless except for your children it was you had a house full of servants you didn't have anything to do. It was kind of a useless type of life. Kelly: When you came back to the States, where did you go?

01:21:17.690 - 01:21:48.360

Martinez: I lived in Tucson, Arizona for a short while, for a few years. Then I moved to Maryland so I could go to school in Washington, D.C. in a court reporter school. I had an aunt and uncle in Maryland, so I moved back there and went to school for about a year and a half. Then I went to work at the Superior Court of the District of Columbia, where I

01:21:48.420 - 01:21:54.060

remained for many, many years. You were a court reporter? Yes. Great.

01:21:54.820 - 01:21:58.540

Wow. Hey, yeah. Change tape. Okay.

01:21:59.160 - 01:22:05.880

Moving right along. In charge once again. Oh, I think that's great. I had no idea.

01:22:06.140 - 01:22:25.000

See, we're finding out all this stuff. My mouth is getting so dry. Overseas. Now in Arabia, you couldn't do any traveling there except a man would work one year and

01:22:25.020 - 01:22:49.080

then you get a couple of weeks off where we would take a local vacation, maybe Beirut or over to Africa or Istanbul. And then the second year you got three months off so you'd go back to the States. And it gave me an opportunity to do a lot of traveling, when we would go back and forth.

01:22:49.780 - 01:22:59.360

Can you hold that a bit? And you're traveling. Back? I was going to say, you're traveling.

01:22:59.920 - 01:23:22.620

Yes. And when I lived in Indonesia, I did go places that other people didn't go. People would say Dutch people had lived there for twenty-five years, hadn't traveled to some of the places I went, because there weren't any amenities.

01:23:24.200 - 01:23:53.360

But I liked to go. I would stay in native hotels or what they called posse grounds, which were run by the government or any—but wherever I stayed, they didn't have amenities. For instance, they'd have a barrel with a cup that was your shower and Oriental toilet

01:23:53.360 - 01:24:20.460

and very sparse furnishings, but I enjoyed doing that. So I did have an opportunity to go places that I wouldn't have had I stayed in the States. When your children— Nancy wants you to—

01:24:20.600 - 01:24:31.120

I want to know what an oriental toilet is. I'm sorry. I don't know. an oriental toilet. A hole in the ground with a place on each side for your feet.

01:24:36.860 - 01:25:10.980

When your boys were growing up, were you involved in things that they did? No, when we got back to the States, for instance, I was working. So I did, for instance, when we were in DACA, I mean if the school had some program, of course I would attend, I went to any meeting they had, but there wasn't really much.

01:25:13.260 - 01:25:43.800

we returned to, when we got to Washington or Maryland, I immediately went to school and if I wasn't going to school, I was practicing and then when I went to work, a reporter's job is not a nine-to-five job. It's a very demanding job in that you're at the mercy of the judge. If the judge wants to work until midnight, you

01:25:43.840 - 01:26:02.420

work until midnight. So, I had no idea it would be that demanding when I decided to take up court reporting. Right. Were your boys involved in a lot of sports? Not particularly. They're not really that athletic.

01:26:03.000 - 01:26:24.080

Kelly: How long then did you live in Washington? Litzenberg: Well, I lived in Maryland and worked in Washington until the boys were old enough that they were going out on their own, and then I moved into Washington myself, into an apartment in Washington.

01:26:24.800 - 01:26:40.820

In this particular job, do you recall anything, any interesting, really interesting case or anything that you worked on? I met all the best people in Washington. Murderers, rapists, arm-droppers.

01:26:44.040 - 01:27:01.060

By the time I left, I was saying, "I really would like to meet a better class of criminal, you know, white-collar criminal." You left Washington, then where did you go? Well, I got married then.

01:27:03.540 - 01:27:26.360

Tell me about that husband. Well, my husband took me out of the city of Washington, which is a very exciting city, and took me to Fort Wayne, Indiana, which was quite a change. However, I did get used to Fort Wayne and actually became very involved in the Philharmonic

01:27:26.460 - 01:27:51.780

there and found that I didn't mind living in a smaller city, that I rather enjoyed it. But I have to tell you something funny. When we were planning on getting married, I flew to Fort Wayne and Paul showed me around different places and another friend there showed me around, you know, houses

01:27:52.080 - 01:28:18.020

and I got on the plane, go back to Washington, I actually got sick at my stomach and I thought, "I can't live there. I absolutely can't live there." I got to my apartment and I was sick and then I thought, "He's stupid. You've You can live in Fort Wayne.

01:28:21.740 - 01:28:39.040

Tell me about some of the qualities that that young man possessed that made you fall in love with him. He is probably one of the—Paul is a good person. He's fun.

01:28:42.440 - 01:29:07.620

We've been married 18 years now, and when I see him, he's out working on his plane, but he's fun to be with. He's enjoyable, very outgoing, very gregarious, and he has all the qualities that you'd say, except that he isn't religious.

01:29:07.840 - 01:29:23.680

You know, you'd say, "Oh, he's a good Christian," meaning that he has, he's kind and considerate and just thoroughly good. Well, he's not religious, but he is a good individual. And did you have something in common with him?

01:29:24.360 - 01:29:45.380

Well, he was a pilot. That was, I guess when we first met, we started talking about flying, and he found out that I had been a pilot too, and so he's always liked that. He's always encouraged me.

01:29:46.400 - 01:29:58.160

I can't fly anymore because I have macular degeneration. I also have no depth perception. But when I'm flying with Paul, I am his co-pilot. He doesn't believe in just excess baggage.

01:29:58.460 - 01:30:09.840

I have to do my part. But don't ask me to land a plane. Are any of your boys interested in flying? No, none of them were.

01:30:13.720 - 01:30:24.760

And one of my grandchildren was down here for a couple of summers, and Paul asked him if he was interested in flying. And he said, not particularly.

01:30:25.580 - 01:30:47.160

Paul would have given him flying lessons, but he didn't show any interest in it. When you lived in Fort Wayne and he was working, how did you spend your time? Well, as I say, I became very involved with the Philharmonic and did a lot of volunteer

01:30:47.440 - 01:31:25.900

work, worked on auctions, contacted people for donations, and other jobs with that organization. At one time, I was thinking, "You might as well go back to work," because I was spending that much time on this volunteer work. But when I went to Fort Wayne, that was one thing that made the city more inviting, that

01:31:25.960 - 01:31:43.880

they did have a very good philharmonic. So it wasn't a culturally deprived city, it was actually quite a vibrant little city. And then when you moved from Fort Wayne, did you come to Florida? We came here.

01:31:44.680 - 01:32:11.480

Why did you decide on Florida? Well, before Paul retired, we had talked about where we might retire, and one of the places we were not going to retire to was Florida. We really thought we'd end up in Hilton Head. We had friends there and we rather liked it, but they were saying it was getting a little

01:32:11.580 - 01:32:34.480

crowded. We were driving down the coast one time and came to Ponte Vedra and I said, "Wait a minute, you know, this isn't too shabby." And we started looking around there and liked it. And then as we drove down the coast, we just happened to see Hammock Dunes, and we liked it even more. So, we did end up in Florida.

01:32:35.100 - 01:32:57.040

Right. And where are your boys now? They're all in Maryland, but one is going to move to Atlanta, and one is going to move to Punta Gorda, so I think we will be moving to the West Coast now. I thought this was my last move, but I'd like to be close to one of my children.

01:32:57.720 - 01:33:10.820

Right, and how many grandchildren do you have? I have four. Two that are birth grandchildren and two adopted grandchildren. Boys and girls?

01:33:11.180 - 01:33:31.800

There's one girl and the others are boys. And who's her grandmother's favorite? I can't say that really. That's not allowed. Right. Penny, of all the things that you have done, and you've certainly done a lot,

01:33:32.440 - 01:34:04.080

what is the one thing in your life that you're most proud of? I suppose having been a WASP, I think that was, it's not something that I have dwelled on, but if I look back and you say, what is really the thing you're most proud of, outside of your own family, outside of having three wonderful sons, which you're certainly proud

01:34:04.080 - 01:34:28.400

up, but I think having been in the WASPs, having learned to fly and then flying later, but the time in the WASPs was an outstanding time. I'm sorry it didn't continue a little longer. Right.

01:34:29.300 - 01:34:53.800

What do you feel the legacy of the WASPs will be? Oh, I think the knowledge that women can do just about anything they set their mind to. That there is no—that women certainly aren't the weaker sex. It doesn't—not just flying, but anything a woman wants to do, she's capable of doing.

01:34:56.840 - 01:35:17.800

What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? I didn't know Jacqueline Cochran. The couple of times I met her, she was a very charming woman, certainly a very controversial woman from what I've read, but I think she accomplished a great deal, and I think we

01:35:17.980 - 01:35:40.180

owe her a lot. I mean, she started an organization that's a forerunner of all military pilots today, women military pilots. So I think she did a great job.

01:35:41.240 - 01:35:54.040

Good. In each of our lifetimes, we have good times and bad times and happy times and certainly some sad times. What has gotten you through those sad times?

01:36:00.020 - 01:36:31.780

I guess just an inner strength that you have to call on. I can't say that I'm not a particularly religious person, although you certainly call upon God when you think you need him. But I think everybody has the inner core that you have a strength that you don't realize it until you really need it.

01:36:34.260 - 01:37:01.500

What do you feel your legacy will be? Heavens, I have no idea. I don't feel that I've done—I think I've had an interesting life, but I don't think that I've done anything, you know, particularly outstanding. Certainly, I have, you know, I have children that I'm very proud of,

01:37:01.540 - 01:37:18.780

and I think my family would be what... That would have to be what I'd say. Right. Tell me about each of those four grandchildren.

01:37:19.360 - 01:37:35.160

I'm sorry? Tell me about each of those four grandchildren. Let me start with my two oldest grandsons. I'll tell you about them.

01:37:37.120 - 01:38:14.600

One of them is Shane. He was a very bright student. He had a scholar, he got scholarships and grants, went to college with straight A's and, you know, one of those lucky kids just, not that he didn't work, but he was very bright. My second grandson, which, whom I, is just adorable and I just love him, he's, but he was more

01:38:14.720 - 01:38:38.720

happy-go-lucky and he's had one year of college and decided to drop out and find himself before he goes back, which was a good decision on his part, because there's no sense in going to college and wasting your parents' money. But he's been down here and helped Paul on the plane and stayed with us last summer and the summer before, and

01:38:39.280 - 01:39:00.680

just an absolute joy to be around. If you could say to those, to their grandchildren, for example, children fifty years from now, If you could say something to them that might encourage them or motivate or inspire them, what would you like to say to them?

01:39:03.920 - 01:39:33.460

Well, I'd say follow your heart. No matter what you, wherever your interest goes, if you have a, you know, if you have the determination to do something. If you really want to do it, you can do it. And follow your dreams. And if you do that, you're going to be happy. You're going to accomplish something.

01:39:36.080 - 01:39:52.340

Is there anything that I have left out about your life that you would like to tell us? Dini, I think you have stripped me bare. Oh no! Could I tell you it's been a pleasure to strip you bare.

01:39:56.280 - 01:40:21.740

We really appreciate this. I think I will ask you what you think of what we're doing. I think it's magnificent. I think it's absolutely great. You know after somebody is gone you're always so sorry why didn't I ask them this why didn't I get this information? And

01:40:22.060 - 01:40:43.560

You're doing you know you're getting what what you can from the rest of us that are still here, and I think it's a Wonderful thing to do I wish I'd done it with my own family Well, we really appreciate it. Some child somewhere in the future is going to watch you and say,

01:40:44.190 - 01:40:53.340

"If she could do something special, so can I." And we thank you so much. Well, thank you. You've been a delight. Do you have anything?

01:40:54.720 - 01:40:55.860

Are you happy now?