00:00:00.000 - 00:00:13.000

[no audio] [music] ...quisitely? Or will they take fright?

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A company responsible for instance for over half the management buyouts over the last five years. 3i, we have a wealth of experience. Right, we'll be fine. See you later. Help yourself to coffee.

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The culture of pleasure. And I think that's the best. Well, thanks, Jeff, very much. I think you're quite right. In the search for the ideal business location, more and more companies are moving our way.

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[ Pause ] Now on four Robert key investigates the seemingly ambiguous relationship between the church and state in Hungary in a program that was completed before Janos Cada's recent retirement [MUSIC PLAYING]

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(dramatic music) (suspenseful music) (dramatic music) [Music]

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(dramatic music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) [Music]

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[Music] One question for the human race to ask, and that is, what must I do to be saved? And now, today, and for the best. (music)

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That the American evangelist Billy Graham should be free to proclaim to the masses in Budapest that Marxist-Leninism may not in itself be any longer enough to save their souls, is one of the many relaxations in the attitude of their Marxist state, to which Hungarians in the street have for some time been accustomed.

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There's more sense of individuality here than in many communist countries. (dramatic music) The shops have more style. And sometimes contain surprisingly non-Marxist goods.

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Small private enterprises flourish. They can now employ up to 30 people. Western products advertise themselves. Public transport is efficient and frequent,

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better often than in many Western capitals. (dramatic music) But so many Hungarians now have their own cars that traffic problems in Budapest are often today

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just as bad as in the capitals of the West. (dramatic music) (music) The de-restriction of economic dogma

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reflects itself generally in all areas of society. This is a country where individual views, individual feelings come out quite easily into the open. You don't feel it's all that dangerous to say what you think here.

00:08:10.120 - 00:08:35.280

Oppression doesn't seem to be in the air. The man responsible for this remarkable feat of Marxist-Leninist engineering is Party Secretary Janos Kada. In power now for 30 years,

00:08:35.280 - 00:08:52.280

after backing Russian suppression of the 1956 Rising, he's learned that rather than crush too many people you can't convert, it's better to embrace them, whoever they are, in the sort of socio-economic ambiguity which he allows to prevail in.

00:08:52.280 - 00:09:09.560

On the spiritual plane too, there is some ambiguity. At the Communist bookshop over there, I've just bought this copy of the Bible, which is freely available among the works of Marx and Lenin. It's classed there as literature and is to be found among the works of Sir Walter Scott and James Joyce.

00:09:09.560 - 00:09:33.400

Now, Lenin classed religion as a most dangerous ideology, and he said the party should lead the process of exposing its folly and corruption. So what's the party doing, letting religion flourish so commonly and with such success in churches of all denominations today?

00:09:34.120 - 00:10:15.480

- So let all know their rights, but the to me this apparent contradiction on behalf of the party. What he said was this, "It's all part of Carter's policy since 1956. When Carter declared, 'Like Christ,'" said this

00:10:15.480 - 00:10:36.880

churchman, "Like Christ, he who is not against me is with me." Now if you turn to the Gospel according to St. Matthew, you'll find that in fact it's What Christ says there is, "He who is not with me is against me." A far more traditional doctrinaire position.

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And a position both Christians and Marxists, believing their opposing doctrines, might be expected to maintain. They arrange things more conveniently in Hungary. conveniently in Hungary.

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Beside the Danube in Budapest stands the fine Parliament House, where the freedoms of this very patriotic nation were once debated. Today, its role is ceremonial, and here an impressive descent takes place from the heavens

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on Constitution Day to celebrate, in secular form, that constitution which the Russians helped establish here 40 years ago. A constitution which guarantees freedom of religious worship. And this Constitution Day is also the day of Hungary's first king,

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St Stephen, who gave Hungary to the Virgin Mary, beside whom he sits on the front of the basilica, to which, on this same day, Hungarians can come to celebrate both the Constitution and St Stephen.

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(choral singing) Here too, they can come to gaze with both religious and secular awe at a relic of the royal saint's body,

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his arm displayed in a splendid sleeve. (choral singing) while both St Stephen and perhaps the Constitution are celebrated in Christian ritual by Hungary's new cardinal, Paskai.

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The link Stephen symbolises between patriotism and religion was something the communist regime here once foolishly tried to reject. It persecuted the churches. Agreements made between church and state remained nominal.

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One of Marxism's difficulties in trying to put down new roots for society has always been the strength of the roots already there. Today in Hungary, Marxism works with the religious roots rather than against them. In 1977, on a historic visit to the Vatican,

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Party Secretary Kada and Hungary's then-Cardinal, Lekai, sat down to start a new era in relations between the Catholic Church and state. Cada, for the state, was well pleased. Church satisfaction was less precise.

00:13:21.960 - 00:13:46.360

Cardinal Lechai knew that he must step warily. The Church, its appointments subject to state approval, could have its glory, but now only 18 years had passed But now only eight Catholic schools were, once there'd been nearly 3,000,

00:13:46.360 - 00:14:02.520

only four religious orders tolerated, and officials of the State Office of Church Affairs always there to keep an eye on him. He knew that some in his own flock saw him collaborating too well,

00:14:02.520 - 00:14:33.880

too publicly identifying the power of the hierarchy with that of the party. His own formula was that the Catholic Church could only hope to proceed by small steps, since that way, at least, the most sacred activities of the Catholic Church were assured. There is one religious denomination here

00:14:33.880 - 00:14:56.880

which has no reservation or ambiguity at all about its relationship with the state. It's quite a small one, some 80,000 people altogether, and the way it became small is the reason why its relationship with this state is so excellent. Just over 40 years ago, there were some 800,000 Jews here in Hungary.

00:14:56.880 - 00:15:11.880

When the Germans came in, in 1944, they began their systematic extermination of Hungarian Jews. Trainload after trainload, month after month, to Auschwitz. By the time the advancing Russians got here,

00:15:11.880 - 00:15:27.480

there were only 70,000 Jews left. 12,000 or so of them crammed into the rooms of this building here, near the main synagogue in Budapest. So grotesque was the German obsession with the need to exterminate Jews,

00:15:27.480 - 00:15:43.280

that even when the advancing Russians were on the outskirts of Budapest, Jews were being taken out of this building by the hundred, to be shot on the banks of the Danube. The present Jewish community of some 80,000 are the children, grandchildren,

00:15:43.280 - 00:15:55.880

and sometimes the survivors themselves of that desperate band that huddled here and elsewhere in Budapest, awaiting extinction some 40 years ago. Today we know exactly...

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600,000 Jewish people were killed. 600,000. In the several concentration camps. And in the gas chambers.

00:16:11.480 - 00:16:36.760

In Auschwitz, Majdanek, Mauthausen, Treblinka, and so on and so on. The majority of my family too. 39 persons only in my family. With that terrible experience alive in Jewish memories,

00:16:36.760 - 00:16:53.720

it's hardly surprising that Hungarian Jews have no complaints about official association with a state a state that sees 22 synagogues flourishing in Budapest alone. If you ask about emigration to Israel,

00:16:53.720 - 00:17:07.080

Jewish leaders will probably reply rather briskly that there's no need for it in any way permission can be applied for. They may add, more realistically, that any Jew who seriously wishes to emigrate could do so as a tourist,

00:17:07.080 - 00:17:19.200

and that's undoubtedly true. The main point is that Hungarian Jews are so thankful that things are not as they were before, that they are not going to rock the state boat.

00:17:19.200 - 00:17:37.200

With other denominations, things aren't quite so simple. Catholics form the largest denomination in Hungary, six million in a ten million population. (train horn)

00:17:37.200 - 00:18:01.820

They enjoy full freedom of worship. Some Budapest churches hold six masses a day. But does Christian faith really have anything in common with Marxism? At a recent conference on potential dialogue,

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Vatican representatives discussed the matter in general debate with a number of Marxist philosophers. There was give and take on both sides in a reasoned way, with each side making their own points.

00:18:16.980 - 00:18:36.100

And though there were obviously some reservations on both sides, the feeling was that the experience had been worth it. But what really does either side hope to get from such dialogue? What is there in it, spiritually, for the Church?

00:18:36.100 - 00:18:51.500

We want to make people happy, and I think that's a common aim of Marxists and Christians. The question is, naturally, what means happiness? Of course, philosophically, there's a problem here,

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because Marxism traditionally has said that you can make people happy if you give them the correct economic environment. Christianity has much more to say than that. So I wonder if there really is the possibility of true dialogue.

00:19:09.020 - 00:19:28.760

Yes, I think Marxists had to realize that happiness cannot be given only by money. And for a few decades, the government wanted to solve social problems

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with only the authorities' organizations. And after about 20 years of time, or 30 years of time, it turned out not to be true. And Hungarian society have to face a lot of social problems.

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I'm thinking of juvenile delinquency, of suicide rate, which is terribly high in Hungary, of drug dependence, of alcoholism. And in the past few years, the government

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realized that they cannot tackle with all these problems. And the time came when they asked for the help of the church. What you witness in Hungary in state church relationships is power technicians of a weakening dictatorship at work.

00:20:25.560 - 00:20:46.920

Communists in Hungary have given up the original aim of wiping out religion altogether. They would like to have a church that doesn't grow. But the point of the Christian church of whatever denomination is that it wants to grow, believing itself in possession of unique truth.

00:20:47.680 - 00:21:11.280

The Reformed Calvinist Church is the second largest denomination here, two million members. Its churches too are devoutly packed. It too is under the State Office of Church Affairs.

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(Choir singing) Bishop Tote speaks for the Reformed Church with the state. His church's growth was once closely linked with the success of its hundreds of schools. How many now?

00:21:33.280 - 00:21:48.120

Well, we have only one secondary school in East Hungary, Debrecen, Debrecen, which is part of the very old reformed college, the Debrecen Calvinist College. Would you not like to see more?

00:21:48.120 - 00:22:03.040

Well, I certainly would like to see more. And actually, there is a movement of the Calvinist intellectuals to start a negotiation with the state to organize a new school.

00:22:03.040 - 00:22:17.080

Presumably, though, you've already asked for this from the state. Well, there were some kind of preliminary negotiations. And to my great joy, and also a little bit surprised,

00:22:17.080 - 00:22:27.400

the state authorities declared themselves ready to speak on this. Ready to speak, but what about being ready to act? Well, ready to act, it depends what kind of action.

00:22:27.400 - 00:22:45.260

I think that one action must be, from the beginning, excluded, that they will support it financially. If we are independent and able, financially I mean, I don't think that there will be any obstacle

00:22:45.260 - 00:22:56.920

to start organizing another school or two or three even. - No political obstacle. - No political obstacle. Well, that reflects also the new atmosphere

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in which the state and church relationships now are taking shape, new shape. means, well, they don't mind, even they encourage us to deal with young people.

00:23:10.620 - 00:23:22.580

And that reflects an immense change in the mentality of all Marxist partners. - Why do you think they now do this? - Well, because they have to confront

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the problems of the youth. There is a problem in the socialist countries, It's very difficult to-- it is a difficult question how to deal with the youth

00:23:34.260 - 00:23:48.580

and how to educate them. Social problems which socialism hasn't solved. Social problems, human problems, moral problems. You know, there was a certain kind of--

00:23:48.580 - 00:24:04.140

how can I call it-- a loss of moral values. There is a moral confusion due to the deep going social revolution which took place in this country.

00:24:04.140 - 00:24:24.220

Old values were rejected, but not replaced by new ones. And to our understanding, every society is in great need of these basic human values, which exactly are the Christian values.

00:24:24.220 - 00:24:42.620

We are convinced of that. And now the state is saying to us that, well, it's very interesting how they call it. They say the churches are institutions producing moral value. That is some kind of Marxist terminology.

00:24:42.620 - 00:25:00.620

Moral value producing organisations. See? A reformed church pastor is Attila Komlosh, editor of the church's weekly newspaper. I asked him how cooperation between church and state actually worked out practically.

00:25:00.620 - 00:25:23.380

Practically there are several fields of the social life where the churches can work together with the so-called Marxists. In this sense, I wouldn't use the terminology Marxist. I would say the churches can work together with the representatives of the society.

00:25:23.380 - 00:25:40.820

- They would have to call themselves Marxists. - Oh, yes. So if you use this word, we can work together with the Marxists as Christian believers on the field of the social life of the society. What are these fields?

00:25:40.820 - 00:26:01.260

The fields where we feel that the society needs our moral, ethical support. But mustn't this be rather disturbing for Marxists have to recognize that only religion can contribute something to the social well-being which they, Marxists, apparently can't contribute.

00:26:01.260 - 00:26:20.540

I think it's better to ask about this question a Marxist. By admitting that the churches have something to offer on social problems, aren't you really admitting a failure of Marxism? If I understand the question correctly,

00:26:20.540 - 00:26:38.540

he said that we work together with the churches and we demand that religious people work together actively, which is contrary to our ideas.

00:26:38.540 - 00:26:50.540

That's not true. Marxist and Leninist ideas do not lock in, but they are hiding the truth of the world. It is a historical fact that there were Marxists,

00:26:50.540 - 00:27:02.540

or I call them Leninists, who misinterpreted this, in short, they explained it dogmatically. This is not the sin or crime of Marxism-Leninism,

00:27:02.540 - 00:27:15.540

but those who explained it this way. The recognition of reality, the proper understanding of the world, Why do we have to be afraid of any kind of violence,

00:27:15.540 - 00:27:32.540

whether it's from the Marxists or the Church? What does the Church mean by expelling people, and what do we mean by that? But doesn't Marxism mean that if you get the economic and political climate right,

00:27:32.540 - 00:27:44.540

then you'll have no social problems? That's not what it means. Maximus Lenin never said, at least I never met him, that he could change the world in one stroke.

00:27:44.540 - 00:28:07.540

Maximus Lenin was a man who tried to make the world better. We had to see that it didn't go as fast as we thought. But we can ask those who are not Marxists to give us some time. At least as much as the society of Turkey got to produce what it knew.

00:28:07.540 - 00:28:42.900

And in the meantime, people live on this earth, believing in God or not. And religious people need us just like that. I'm selling these VHS video recorders from just £119 and while you're here I could probably

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find you a color TV. The shifting sands of the Sahara, climax to this year's Paris-Dakar rally. It was won on tires from the people who spend more on tire research and development than any other company in the world.

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(sound of water splashing) Really cats and dogs. Royal Mail. By air, by land, by night, by hand. Some things in life suit each other perfectly.

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Then again, some things don't. It's the same with life insurance. But with over 120 companies to choose from, how do you get an unbiased opinion on which policy suits you? Simple. From now on, ask for independent financial advice.

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Because the right life insurance policy can be a man's best friend. Could there be a better way to feed the dog you care for? This new pedigree chum seems to have put excitement into feeding times. It's got that something extra.

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And to see them enjoying it, then that's wonderful. Two of my dogs have delicate tummies, but we feel now we've got them a new pedigree chum. It's absolutely first class for them.

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It is a terrific food, and if you wanted any persuasion, just come and see my dogs. They believe there is a better way to feed a dog. New Pedigree Chum. Top breeders recommend it.

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With something this natural, would you add artificial coloring? Neither would we. Simple. Not perfumed, not colored. Just kind.

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[MUSIC PLAYING] The Catholic Church made its official agreement with the Hungarian state as long ago as 1950. To find out how satisfied the Church now was,

00:32:09.160 - 00:32:25.040

I asked the Bishop who deals with the State Office of Church Affairs. Some people say he's too cooperative. I may say we are satisfied in general, but we have some preservation for many things

00:32:25.040 - 00:32:40.880

that could be better in the future. But if I may say so, agreement with the state goes back to 1950. It is a very good agreement in the principle, no?

00:32:40.880 - 00:33:09.320

Exactly, but you've had nearly 40 years now to work for something better and it seems to be a very slow process. It is so, but I think it is in every relation the same thing, I think that the development will become not too fast.

00:33:09.320 - 00:33:23.320

But nearly 40 years... It is very, very difficult because it is from the inner side of the socialism. Why does the state have to coordinate church affairs? The church is a part of society.

00:33:23.320 - 00:33:39.320

There are many questions that need to be addressed within society, or in the international community. We coordinate in this, but we are not professional, and it is not our duty to address the internal issues of the church,

00:33:39.320 - 00:33:59.320

the issues of religion. We do not control the churches, neither in the matter of the denominations, nor in other areas. The church has its own internal autonomy.

00:33:59.320 - 00:34:12.320

They are free to live according to their own laws. The state has a need for certain church institutions, but this is very little. Because there is a lot of talk about religious freedom

00:34:12.320 - 00:34:34.320

when it comes to denominations, even to a plenary denomination, For example, in the capital, it is quite strange to find a suitable person with state permission. You still have to take direction from the Office of Church Affairs when you nominate bishops, archbishops?

00:34:34.320 - 00:34:58.320

Yes, it is so. In different countries, in every country, it is not the same thing. Here in Hungary, we must have the proof from the government, everything, these nominations from the Pope. Our church, the Reformed Church in Hungary, has a very democratic system which we earned from our fathers.

00:34:58.320 - 00:35:30.320

And we saved this democratic structure during the last four centuries. I think for us now living in this society, it doesn't give a problematic situation to live in this democratic structure. But the state under the constitution surely has the right not to accept someone whom your democracy might elect. What would happen then?

00:35:30.320 - 00:35:59.320

The state, you're right, has the right to reject the nomination of the church. I think during the discussions, before the nomination, we can have a common sense to nominate somebody or somebody's candidate or candidates to one or another position in the church.

00:35:59.320 - 00:36:19.600

You mean you only select people you know that the state will accept? I wouldn't say this way. I would say that the nomination committee has the right to select or nominate candidates the way as it sees the best way.

00:36:19.600 - 00:36:43.280

Bishop Nodge, head of the smaller Protestant Lutheran Church, finds the Marxist authorities cooperative to a quite remarkable extent. But they wouldn't surely go so far as actually to come to church. happens quite often, especially in the countryside. I have to go to villages and towns in the

00:36:43.280 - 00:37:08.100

whole country for several occasions, and this is now our experience in the last time that even party leaders of the town or village and the heads of the town or village council and leaders of the collectives come to the service. They participate and they greet very warmly the congregation.

00:37:08.100 - 00:37:22.860

And not only that, they help us to renew our churches. Do they pray too in the churches? No, they say very often, very sincerely, "We are not believers, but we have respect for your faith.

00:37:22.860 - 00:37:46.080

And we know that the churches and Christians have a very important role in our society." How does the Catholic hierarchy feel about the very small number of Catholic schools? We have, we are not satisfied with these schools because we can see the last years there were

00:37:46.080 - 00:37:59.840

many, many people who would be pleased to introduce the children in the school. There was no place. It isn't enough. And do you ask every time you meet with the government?

00:37:59.840 - 00:38:05.880

The government, yes, yes, yes. And every time? The question is next time. Always next time.

00:38:05.880 - 00:38:30.240

We will see next time, yes. Why can there not be more than eight Catholic schools in the country? I don't know who would want to support the state with the support of these eight schools. And the teachers' salaries are added to the maintenance of the schools.

00:38:30.240 - 00:38:52.240

What sort of difficulties do you have maintaining our schools? I can't speak about major difficulties in maintaining our schools. Thank goodness, I can say that our schools are very well accepted in the society. We have lots of applicants, far more than we can take.

00:38:52.240 - 00:39:15.240

We have enough staff to run the schools. And in the past few years, we could modernize our schools. Partly by the help of the people, because there's once a year a collection in all the churches,

00:39:15.240 - 00:39:31.240

all the Catholic churches, during the masses for the church schools. And people give a lot of money to maintain these schools. partly from foreign aid. Why cannot the Catholic religious orders,

00:39:31.240 - 00:39:46.240

which were suppressed nearly 40 years ago, now be restored? The issue of the constitutional order was regulated as it was known to the public. There were several reasons for this.

00:39:46.240 - 00:40:06.240

One was the leadership of the Church, and the other was the leadership of the party and state. This cannot be continued today. So we, when we talk about the order of the contract, we start from the current situation, from the current demands,

00:40:06.240 - 00:40:34.240

and based on this, a woman's order of the contract was created, the Hungarian Great Society. The two are not opposed to each other. You can't start from a situation 40 years ago.

00:40:34.240 - 00:40:50.240

It's a bit of a nostalgic thought. At any point in the world, you can experience that interest in the business world has decreased. That is, how much business order is needed in Hungary now,

00:40:50.240 - 00:41:14.680

I can't say based on real experience. This is an experimental basis, the councils will investigate it and if it is necessary, and if it is necessary for what it is, it will be brought to life. Could you not ask for more orders to be restored? We have these meetings between the policy and the government, Hungarian government.

00:41:14.680 - 00:41:31.640

There is every when in the note verbal, in the end, the question of the orders will be came the next time. Next time. It is not solved, no?

00:41:31.640 - 00:41:47.580

The question of the orders, what about the orders, will come the next time. Every time, every-- This, even the note, well, but end with these, with these note, the question of the order, next time.

00:41:47.580 - 00:42:03.580

One of the so-called small steps to which the Catholic Church has had to resign itself in its attempt to improve its position has brought it to this amiable glade in the countryside outside Budapest. Not a very dramatic step, you might say,

00:42:03.580 - 00:42:22.380

Just a very pleasant, good place in which to rest and recover your strength. And that, in fact, is exactly what this place is. Four years ago, the state allowed the church to open this retreat house here, in which Catholics can come and, in its bare, comfortable accommodation,

00:42:22.380 - 00:42:42.980

think those essentially non-Marxist thoughts with which Christians concern themselves. More than 10,000 people have passed through here in that time. reading, praying, thinking their thoughts, and attending seminars. Sometimes in the company of Jesuits.

00:42:42.980 - 00:43:03.980

Jesuits? But Jesuits were one of the religious orders suppressed by the state in Stalinist times. Yes, and they still are suppressed as an order, but there are some 70 Jesuits still in Hungary, and once again you have one of those very typical Hungarian compromises here. The government formula might be expressed like this.

00:43:03.980 - 00:43:16.980

Yes, there is no Jesuit order as an institution, but individual Jesuits exist, and they are allowed to work, even as Jesuits. Very Jesuitical, you might say.

00:43:16.980 - 00:43:31.980

No such equivocation over the Benedictines. One of five religious orders now allowed, they exist solidly where they've long existed, in the ancient monastery of Pannenhalmer.

00:43:31.980 - 00:43:45.980

Here is one of the eight surviving Catholic schools in a country where once there were nearly 3,000. 300 boys board here. Many more would come if they could.

00:43:45.980 - 00:43:58.980

Their first job on completing their studies will be 18 months' military service, even for those few who go on to train for the priesthood. What was it like for you when you were doing your military service,

00:43:58.980 - 00:44:17.980

being a member of a monastic order, because they must all have known that? Mm-hm. Well, it was nothing but a good experience. It was a challenge for me because I was just after the secondary school and in the army I could get to know other people, other ways of life.

00:44:17.980 - 00:44:40.980

What was the attitude to you of your fellow conscripts and of the authorities? The fellow conscripts didn't care about my position, being a monk, and the attitude of the authority was official. Was there any discrimination against you at all, would you say?

00:44:40.980 - 00:44:56.980

It depends on persons. Individual persons? Individual persons. Were you allowed religious books there? Yes, I was allowed to keep the Bible published in Hungary after the Second World War, and it was all.

00:44:56.980 - 00:45:03.980

You couldn't have any other religious books? No, I couldn't. Could you attend mass? No, I couldn't.

00:45:03.980 - 00:45:21.980

Only when I was on leave. And what sort of soldier did you become? Well, I had to do, and I tried to survive. I got a letter from the military office after he did his military service.

00:45:21.980 - 00:45:46.980

"Dear comrade, we appreciate the military service of my young comfrere. Congratulations and we are very thankful to you that you sent us such a good and reliable soldier or student to us in the army. And we'd be very glad if you could send to us

00:45:46.980 - 00:46:02.180

such good, reliable students in the future as well. A court gave this Catholic three years' prison for conscientious objection to military service. When I got the call, I wrote a one-sided request

00:46:02.180 - 00:46:20.220

in which I wrote down my position. It said that I don't deny military service, but I would like to perform another civil peace service and this would be my duty to my country.

00:46:20.220 - 00:46:40.940

The court did not respond to this. (speaking in foreign language) - Was it a civil court? (speaking in foreign language)

00:46:40.940 - 00:47:06.340

- Did they listen carefully to what you had to say and were you allowed to say what you wanted? Apparently, this court ruling is in line with human demands, and apparently everyone could be satisfied with it.

00:47:06.340 - 00:47:29.540

In fact, this is a form of decision-making, a pre-decisive ruling. You can say anything, they listen patiently, they don't look at you, they look at the evidence. And...

00:47:29.540 - 00:48:16.060

...with this, the verdict is already decided. I had a defender, a protected defender, who said more of a verbal abuse than a defense. How many conscientious objectors are in prison at this moment in Hungary? But why does Hungary, unlike some other socialist countries,

00:48:16.060 - 00:48:42.340

not allow conscientious objectors to do community service instead? First of all, there are cases when we allow, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses and Nazarenes, who, according to their beliefs, will not leave their weapons. But we know that there is such a change in the German democratic republic.

00:48:42.340 - 00:49:05.340

We condemn this. This means that in this question, as well as in other questions, we do not consider anything to be conclusive. This question of the military service isn't solved. We have hope that in the next time it will be better for the young people who would not do the military service.

00:49:05.340 - 00:49:17.340

Better in what way? In this way that it's the liberty of choice, of choice, no? That it's of conscience, it's the liberty. That we can choose for the military service or another thing, no?

00:49:17.340 - 00:49:34.860

all the service of health, publicity, et cetera. Father Boulani is a Catholic priest who's long stood up for the rights of conscientious objectors. He himself served many years in prison in the days of the state's persecution of the

00:49:34.860 - 00:49:48.780

church. Today, he's as much in trouble with the Vatican as with the state for his independent criticism of the way in which, in his view, the Catholic hierarchy cooperates too comfortably with the power of the state.

00:49:48.780 - 00:50:20.200

We Christians are the teachers of a Jew who committed a personal sin. I would rather not tell what anyone else should do. All I know is that you have to start what Jesus came for. (speaking in foreign language)

00:50:20.200 - 00:50:47.200

that it was not about the Christians taking over the power from the non-Christians, but about everything that goes with it. Because it is true that Jesus said that as his disciples, his disciples, will be persecuted in the same way, this is all right.

00:50:47.200 - 00:51:00.000

We think it's natural that if the power within us locks us up or executes us, but the fact that the leaders of Jesus Christ's Church cooperate with this,

00:51:00.000 - 00:51:12.560

support this, promote this, we live this as the most serious sin of Jesus. We have to share this country.

00:51:12.560 - 00:51:46.000

You know, I think 30 years ago, Both the party and the church leaders thought that in a few years the other side will disappear. And in fact both the socialist government is here and the church and religious people are here. And I think that was very important that both sides realized that we have to live together.

00:51:46.000 - 00:52:04.000

So there is no ideological fight to be fought by communists against religion. religion. I don't like this war expression, because it's misleading. The two ideologies are contrary,

00:52:04.000 - 00:52:29.680

so it makes sense that there is a confrontation between the two. A fight against each other. But unfortunately, this has become a solution that is no longer appropriate. I know you yourself have said that it was wrong for Marxist-Leninists

00:52:29.680 - 00:52:49.440

to talk of the quick demise of religion. Do you mean that you want a slow demise? No, not at all. We don't want the churches, and they don't want us to give up our SPI foundation.

00:52:49.440 - 00:53:16.440

But this cannot be decided as a match. So we cannot set a goal, and we don't set a goal to abolish the separation of powers. How can you reassure religious people in Hungary that the state's present considerable tolerance isn't just a phase? Words cannot suffice to convince people.

00:53:16.440 - 00:53:35.440

They need action. The Socialist Workers' Party has announced its alliance policy, which is not a tactical policy, but a strategic policy. which means that the future of the nation,

00:53:35.440 - 00:53:51.360

the social development of the nation, will need any kind of patriotism, regardless of the world. You don't think they're just using you No, who is using whom that is a different question. You see I

00:53:51.360 - 00:54:10.760

Think that humanly speaking, of course everybody would like to use the other and We say versa. They are slowly now accepting the facts The realities of what we call and you call in Western countries pluralism

00:54:10.760 - 00:54:42.100

The cultural pluralism they accept now, and even the ideological pluralism they accept now. All the time saying that the Marxist ideology must be the leading ideology. But they accept the ideological cultural pluralism, and that is something good. But this kind of pluralism does not mean at any rate the political pluralism in the sense

00:54:42.100 - 00:55:00.100

of the political institutions. A tougher negotiation, a more decisive position, a tougher fight for the universal interests would serve the more advanced and probably on a social level it would be much more useful cooperation.

00:55:00.100 - 00:55:10.720

You are asking the state all the time for these things. The state keeps on saying, perhaps, next time. Next time, yes. But the state does not give them.

00:55:10.720 - 00:55:41.800

No, it is very, very difficult because socialism is a difficult question. Because they have principles, materialist principles, and to give something for the people who are religious and in the favour of the religion, it is very, very difficult. But ought you not to be a little tougher with the state in your demands?

00:55:41.800 - 00:55:52.800

A little? Tougher, stronger. Stronger, yes, yes. We will be, because we have now the hope. We are living from the Every people is living from the hope.

00:55:52.800 - 00:56:03.800

Christianity is the same as hope. Now we have new bishops, new bishops. These four new bishops, I will think, because I'm an old man in the conference,

00:56:03.800 - 00:56:16.800

I will hope that these new bishops will be stronger. I am not satisfied with all the things. I must say this, I'm not satisfied. I would have more.

00:56:17.800 - 00:56:36.800

When I first went to the State Office of Church Affairs, I was assured that the relationship between church and state in Hungary was an honest one. And so, in the sense that each party to the relationship recognises the differences it has from the other and such ground as it has in common, it is honest.

00:56:36.800 - 00:57:01.800

But in the sense that one party always has the power to curtail or even suppress the activities of the other, It is dishonest to pretend that the two parties are on anything like equal terms. The fact that the state does not at the moment appear to take advantage of its power is something of which the churches are always in the back of their minds a bit wary.

00:57:01.800 - 00:57:18.120

Would you say it is an honest relationship between church and state in Hungary today? We in Hungary, we are saying it is an honest, it is an honest relation. But is it? Because other things is not possible.

00:57:18.120 - 00:57:37.920

Only this way is possible at this end what we have for the moment. And therefore it is honest. Otherwise for the future we hope more. And it is the young people, the young people, the Hungarian young people who would have

00:57:37.920 - 00:58:25.260

more for the liberty, more liberty in the relations, not only to the church, but in everything. And we hope that that will come next time. We hope. [ Music ] Professor David McClellan, a leading...

00:58:25.260 - 00:58:45.260

Well, as you would expect, very hot in southern parts and not too bad on the eastern side. Through the weekend, that's how it's likely to be, hot and sunny in the south, a little bit more unsettled further north. Well, that's it. Bye-bye. Over on BBC One in a couple of minutes, highlights from Queen's Club of today's play in the international tennis.

00:58:45.260 - 00:59:05.060

And that's except for viewers in Scotland who can see it at 11.40. This is BBC Two, and now an opportunity to experience the liturgy of the Russian Orthodox Church, which this week is celebrating 1,000 years of Christian worship. "On Earth as it is in Heaven" is introduced by Archpriest Sergei Hakol.

00:59:05.060 - 00:59:25.940

1,000 years ago, Russian envoys went in search of a religion. When they came to the centre of of the Christian Orthodox world at Constantinople. They witnessed the divine liturgy, overwhelmed as they were by the beauty of the experience.

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They reported that they had not known whether they were in heaven or on earth. (singing in foreign language) (CHOIR SINGING)

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The Orthodox Church has nourished the culture, the learning and the spirituality of the Russian people. It has shaped the Russian mind. Despite decades of appalling persecution,

01:00:04.300 - 01:00:16.420

The Church has survived. More than that, it is experiencing a remarkable revival. The Church of the Resurrection in central Moscow was opened in 1626.

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Unlike most Russian churches, it has managed to remain open throughout the years between. The liturgy is at the heart of Orthodox Church life. It is celebrated here today by one of the senior bishops

01:00:31.760 - 01:00:50.980

of the Russian Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Pyatidium. [ Music ] (choral singing) [MUSIC PLAYING]

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[MUSIC] [MUSIC] [chanting] [MUSIC]

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[chanting] [chanting] (choral singing) (choral singing)

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[MUSIC] [MUSIC] [singing in Russian] [MUSIC]

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(singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) (choral singing)

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(singing in foreign language) (choral singing) (singing in foreign language) [singing]

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[singing] [Music] [choral singing] (choral singing)

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[music] [ Singing ] [MUSIC] [MUSIC]

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[MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [Music]

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(singing in foreign language) (choral singing) [MUSIC] (singing in foreign language)

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[ Music ] [music] (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language)

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(singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) [ Music ]

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[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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[Music] [Music] [Music] (singing in foreign language)

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[ Music ] [Music] (singing in foreign language) [ Music ]

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[ Music ] (singing in foreign language) [ Music ] [ Music ]

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[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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[Music] [Music] [Music] [ Music ]

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[ Singing ] [ Singing ] [ Music ] [ Singing ]

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(singing in foreign language) [ Music ] [MUSIC] [speaking in foreign language]

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[singing in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [singing] (choral singing)

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[ Music ] [ Singing ] [ Music ] [ Music ]

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[ Singing ] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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[ Music ] (choral singing) [ Music ] [ Singing ]

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[MUSIC] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [PRAYING IN THE SCHOLAR'S NAME]

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[PRAYING IN THE SCHOLAR'S NAME] [PRAYING IN THE SCHOLAR'S NAME] [PRAYING IN THE SCHOLAR'S NAME] [MUSIC PLAYING]

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[PRAYING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE] [PRAYING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE] [MUSIC PLAYING] [music]

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[russian prayers] [ mniej car a pas,яr most russian prayers] [m milligram of sassol] [speaking in foreign language]

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[MUSIC PLAYING] [PRAYING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

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[speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

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[speaking in foreign language] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING]

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[MUSIC PLAYING] [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] [speaking in foreign language] (speaking in foreign language)

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[church bells ringing] [MUSIC PLAYING] [chanting in Russian] [chanting]

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[chanting] [chanting] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

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[ fishes flapping] [drum cleacking] [singing in foreign language] [singing in foreign language]

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(choir singing) (singing in foreign language) [ Music ] [singing in Russian]

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[MUSIC] [singing] [Music] [singing in Russian]

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[singing in Russian] [MUSIC] [singing in Russian] [Singing in Russian]

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[singing] [MUSIC] [singing in Russian] (singing in foreign language)

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(singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) [MUSIC]

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[MUSIC] (singing in foreign language) [MUSIC] [singing]

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[MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [singing]

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[ Singing ] [singing in Russian] [singing in Russian] (choral music)

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(choral music) [chanting] [MUSIC] [MUSIC]

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[Music] (choral singing) (choral music) [MUSIC]

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[Music] [MUSIC] (choral music) (choral singing)

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(choral music) (choral singing) ♪ Will be supported ♪ (singing in foreign language)

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[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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[choral singing] (choral music) [MUSIC] (choral singing)

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(choral singing) [Music] [MUSIC] [Music]

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[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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[Music] [Music] [MUSIC] ♪ And the angels sing ♪

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♪ Joy to the world ♪ ♪ And the angels sing ♪ ♪ Joy to the world ♪ [Music]

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[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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[Music] [Music] [choral singing] (chanting)

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(choral singing) (choral singing) (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language)

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[ Singing ] [ Singing ] [ Singing ] [ Singing ]

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[ Singing ] [Singing] (singing in foreign language) [Music]

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[Music] [Music] (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language)

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[ Music ] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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[MUSIC] [ Music ] [singing in Russian] [speaking in foreign language]

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[ Choir singing ] [singing in Russian] [ Singing ] [ Music ]

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(Singing) Millennium of the Russian Orthodox Church. Christians in an atheist world. [Music] [ Music ]

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[MUSIC] (dramatic music) - For 70 years, Soviet believers have lived in a society dominated by atheism.

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At best, they faced official restrictions. and at worst, persecution. This week's celebrations of a thousand years of Russian Christianity have revealed a new vision

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of harmony between believers and non-believers. How deep is this transformation and will it last? (speaking in foreign language) Few things illustrate the gulf between atheists and believers in the Soviet Union more sharply

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than education. In most societies, teaching other people's children Bible stories is normal work for a priest. Here, it's technically illegal.

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I give children lessons using the holy scriptures, specially illustrated for them and copied on a Xerox machine. I give them the books to take home to read. And here I can be charged for illegally duplicating religious literature,

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for which I could get from one to three years in prison, just because I've used a copier. As you know, this is illegal here. My work with the children here in my home is undoubtedly aimed at the future.

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We're not afraid. We're looking confidently into the future. And we know that eventually our work will be understood and recognized, and that we will manage to raise a worthy generation

01:31:42.260 - 01:32:01.040

devoted to Christian values and life in God. (school bell ringing) In Moscow school number 918, religion is also a subject for discussion.

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Most of the children take part in the school's atheist club. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) - The children meet voluntarily after school

01:32:24.880 - 01:32:41.760

to discuss atheism and religion. It's clear where progress is thought to lie. The club badge portrays the contrast between night and day. Religion, it says, is darkness.

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Knowledge is strength. Outside the family, this is the only way children legally can learn about religion. The teacher lets the children speak for themselves.

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(speaking in foreign language) [ Foreign Language ] I like the culture of religion. It's music about religion.

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And also different works of art. Like painting. Religion is harmful because with its help, the church misleads people.

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And they don't believe us. That's why I think we should do more active atheistic work, (speaking in foreign language) - When the children have finished

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their well-rehearsed contributions, the teacher sums up. She has a view of religion most believers would find hard to recognize. (speaking in foreign language)

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It makes a person humble, submissive to evil, to good, to everything that happens on earth, but not to fight.

01:34:17.940 - 01:34:51.180

You must remember this. Differences between atheists and Christians stem from Russian history. To communists, the church before the revolution was led by a moribund, ultra-conservative hierarchy, propping up an oppressive czarist regime.

01:34:51.180 - 01:35:22.660

Lenin nationalised church property and restricted publishing and preaching. In the 1930s, Stalin tried to stamp out belief with a virulent anti-religious campaign. Tens of thousands of churches were closed. Many believers died or were sent to labour camps.

01:35:22.660 - 01:35:44.420

Today atheists denounce such repression with embarrassment. One could somehow try and explain this immediately after the October Revolution, but it is far harder in the 1920s and 1930s. I would say that it was, to a certain extent,

01:35:44.420 - 01:36:00.840

characterized by a kind of immoral attitude, which prevailed at that time towards our own culture. Because ultimately the Orthodox Church is part of our heritage, which we must preserve.

01:36:00.840 - 01:36:27.360

And today we really are restoring many of these monuments, and this has become a thing of the past. If you like, as atheists, we have started to pay greater attention to the moral approach to life.

01:36:27.360 - 01:36:54.960

Two days ago, as part of the Church's Millennium Celebrations, the curtains of the Bolshoi Theatre in Moscow opened to display this new moral approach. Church leaders shared a platform with the wife of the Soviet leader, Raisa Gorbachev, and state officials, in the latest demonstration of how Church and State now wish to transcend

01:36:54.960 - 01:37:17.840

their differences. It's a harmony all the more significant because for years the Church lived in a twilight world of mistrust and veiled threats. We really are experiencing something utterly new and remarkable in our life.

01:37:17.840 - 01:37:32.160

I'll give you a few examples. In the first place, the opening of new monasteries, the opening of new parishes. not just one or two, but a great many. Most importantly, getting to the essence of it all.

01:37:32.160 - 01:37:50.160

People are quite openly beginning to speak about belonging to the Church and are openly visiting churches. We also see how the changes in church-state relations are increasing the number of baptisms and weddings.

01:37:50.160 - 01:38:02.160

People now feel at home in the Church and are no longer frightened that going to church will result in any kind of unpleasantness at work. The whole climate of the country is changing.

01:38:02.160 - 01:38:23.160

This new climate is strikingly reflected in the media. Last night, this documentary film was broadcast nationwide. When I came to Vienna, I started to live. Before that, I was dead.

01:38:23.160 - 01:38:55.160

Because death is not death only of the body, but the death of the soul. A believer is a living person, and a non-believer is a dead person. The Soviet Union was the first in history to be a country of mass atheism. But it's not without a point that atheism is harmful,

01:38:55.160 - 01:39:12.160

because it sees religion as a means of deception, and excludes it from the history, culture and spiritual life of society. Newspapers, too, reflect the changes. These are the offices of Ergonyok,

01:39:13.160 - 01:39:34.760

magazine in the forefront of Glasnost. With the easing of censorship, an adventurous editorial policy has boosted the circulation by 800,000 in just one year. These features about the church are linked to the millennium celebrations.

01:39:34.760 - 01:39:45.160

Agonyok's editor welcomes the new debate about religion. Debate? Why not? I think it's a good kind of debate, fine kind of debate.

01:39:45.160 - 01:40:00.520

But those debates are with arguments from both sides. Because before, it was only one kind of debate, that religion is something for old ladies and for old retired people.

01:40:00.520 - 01:40:16.280

And religion people, it's kind of fighters against our strong ideology. Now we understand that it's possible to exist. If we start to fight for peaceful coexistence

01:40:16.280 - 01:40:31.120

with President Reagan and Mrs. Thatcher was so friendly invited when she was in Moscow, I think it's possible to be friendly with our own church, too.

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[MUSIC PLAYING] (dramatic music) Despite the talk of friendship, real problems lie beneath this calm exterior.

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One legacy of the old repressions is that millions of Soviet citizens have only negative ideas about religion. Many visitors to this monastery near Moscow

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view the monk's life here at Zagorsk as merely a relic of past superstitions. To atheists, prayers for the salvation of the world are just substitutes for effective action

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that would change things for the better. Outside the monastery's walls, an educated young man who chooses to be a monk is likely to be regarded with astonishment. So far in our country, there are not many believers with a higher education.

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I hope there will be more, but that is not yet the case. It's commonly believed that education allegedly frees a person from his religious views. And some young people had never had to deal with believers with a higher education. So they were astounded.

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With Glasnost, the social stigma of being a believer is beginning to fade. But Christians still have the problem of obtaining religious literature. State bookshops do not sell it. Vladimir Oreshkin and Natalia Babasyan are believers, though not regular churchgoers. Vladimir wants a Bible.

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Books on Lenin are not what he has in mind. Unfortunately, the Bible is very expensive, Half my monthly pay and besides it's impossible to buy one in shops. It can only be acquired on the black market I can't afford one

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Sadly religious literature is not sold in shops either and it's practically impossible to obtain it One can buy atheist literature, but that's hardly suitable for religious purposes. It is atheist literature after all.

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For instance, there is an atheist dictionary from which you can learn something about religion. That's the only source, that atheist literature, for a Christian in the Soviet Union,

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for the average Christian. As part of the Millennium celebrations, the state has let the church print 100,000 Bibles and import half a million as gifts from churches abroad.

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But in a nation with over 40 million believers, that's not enough. Bishops distribute some copies privately. the rare copies on sale in churches can cost well over a hundred pounds. Beyond the means of believers like Vladimir and Natalia.

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So with a new positive mood towards believers why is religious literature still not sold in the shops? Well it was supposed to be a religious propaganda at all times. Maybe, maybe that's why.

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That's why. But right now, right now, well Nobody is afraid of the Bible. And the fact that it isn't enough to buy or to have, or to disperse of the Bible,

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it's a technical problem. You cannot buy, for example, even Pushkin here so freely. But what technical problem? Problem with not enough paper,

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not enough printing facilities, and as a matter of fact, the church doesn't have any printing facilities of its own. But there are always enough works of Lenin published.

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Sure, that's different. That's different. It's more important. You know, every state has its priorities to set, even in this respect. We cannot set, let's say, the Bible before school books and before Lenin.

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It's quite understandable. (choral singing) (choral singing) [choir singing]

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(choral singing) [ Music ] Another great difficulty for Christians is getting churches reopened. This cathedral is a centre of a dispute between believers and non-believers.

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The argument is about the future of a cathedral in Lomonosov, near Leningrad. The believers want to restore and reopen it. The town council, which has neglected it for so long, wants it to be a museum. - Yes, it is. - And now it belongs to the state.

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Why not to the Museum of the Land? Why do you collect more from the supporters of the Museum of the Land? And if I start collecting, I will collect more. - We already know the laws that we have. - What laws do you know?

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- Freedom of religion. - Freedom of religion? (speaking in foreign language) The believers have been trying for years to get this church open.

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Zoya Tikhonravova, an art historian, and her fellow Christians know that the first step is to register officially as a group with the local authority.

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A petition raised 600 signatures of support. but it took eight years for the authority to agree to register them. Why do you need a church in Lomonosov? Because in our region, Petrodvorets, there is no open Orthodox church.

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There are about 125,000 people living in this immediate area. Moreover, next to Lomonosov, there are several big towns like Sosnovibor and Kronstadt, where there are no working churches either. So we're talking about a total local population of 250,000 people.

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Lomonosov is very well placed and right in the centre of this huge area. Moreover, this particular church is next to the station. So why did it take eight years to register the group? With Glasnost, such questions may now be asked.

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Answering them is a new experience for most Soviet officials. The council chairman was rather nervous. At that time, in my opinion, I consider that that group of believers were made up of a specific circle of people who, in my opinion, I consider were not a properly formed group.

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They were all isolated. During a certain period of time, that practically turned out to be eight years, the lists were examined and some of the people from those lists simply withdrew from the from that idea which had been put forward by the list. As a result, as a

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result there was no point of contact between the group of believers and our group. (speaking in foreign language) - Zoya and the other believers are angered and frustrated

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and Mr. Yashkos claims that they changed their minds about wanting a church. They say they are being denied their rights. They are insulted by the small wooden church

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offered as a compromise by the council. If there are 20 believers who want to register as a group, they have the complete right to do so without any interference and be given a place of worship. Unfortunately, our local authorities were able to bend these laws and not actively put

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them into practice. The government body that settles such disputes is itself housed in former church property. Once the arm of a repressive state, the Council for Religious Affairs now has a much more restrained political ideology.

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In the new era of rapprochement, the Council is now backing believers' rights against dogmatic local officials. Practically local authorities understand the appearance of any new church community, any new church there, as sort of ideological defeat, because they are supposed to be in charge

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of ideology there. So it's wrong, completely wrong, but that's the way, I mean, this feeling makes it difficult for the local authorities. Even if the law is on the side of the believers, they tried some bureaucratic tricks just to

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postpone it. What are you going to do about local authority officials who obstruct such requests for churches? Well, we are going to apply the law. But the law itself is still the cause of many problems for Christians.

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On Moscow's huge impersonal estates, a priest is a rare, even extraordinary sight. Father Alexei agreed to be filmed by us because he doesn't want the splendour and the importance of the Millennium celebrations

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to obscure what the everyday life of believers is like. He's 36, a former electrical engineer and atheist. He's bringing up his son to resist the atheism he's come to regard as anti-life.

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In the last three and a half years, Father Alexei has baptized two and a half thousand people, but he says his work as a priest is still obstructed and frustrated.

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A priest, a believer, does not feel a complete person in an atheist state. A preacher of atheism feels secure in anything he does, while a priest is rated as a second-class citizen. Our fathers built this state.

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Our fathers built this great country. But now power is mainly in the hands of non-believers. And understandably, we find ourselves in a very difficult situation. (singing)

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Father Alexei has to travel several miles to his church in a small town outside Moscow called Pushkina. His work here is still controlled by restrictive laws introduced by Stalin. He's not allowed to use church funds to organise any kind of charitable work. He's not allowed to hold a religious discussion group, nor to run a library of religious literature.

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He cannot even arrange parish outings. Because of this, he feels himself almost powerless to care for his parishioners' welfare. The government is now reviewing those laws. Well, it's outdated, it's overhauled already.

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We admitted it because it's dated as far back as 1929. It reflected the situation in connections between state and church at that time. But now it doesn't. It's completely different. That law was supposed to suppress the Church as one of the political enemies of the Soviet state.

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That was good enough for that. But now it cannot practically be implemented because the relations changed and the situation is quite different right now. Completely different from before. Now the Church isn't the enemy.

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It isn't the political enemy of the state. Why shouldn't it be suppressed after all? But this change is very new. Only eight years ago, Father Gleb Yakunin was jailed for campaigning against legal restrictions.

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[ Singing ] >> Father Gleb is one of over 300 dissidents released in the new atmosphere of Glasnost. He was jailed and exiled for anti-Soviet propaganda.

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But he was also the symbol of a dispute within the church itself over how to deal with these state controls. Father Gleb believes in protest. In 1976, he was secretly filmed conducting an unauthorized memorial service for believers

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persecuted since the revolution. The year before, he had smuggled out of Russia a much-publicised appeal for support for greater Christian freedom. Most bishops felt his actions were likely to cause trouble rather than help solve the

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Church's problems. Today Father Gleb has been reinstated as a priest and given a parish some 25 miles outside Moscow. Far from being cynical after his painful experiences, he's now a firm supporter of Glasnost.

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But he's bitter at what he sees as the bishop's past cowardly compromises with the state. In those terrible years when we were jailed, sent to psychiatric hospitals, put in labor camps and exiled, we spoke aloud about human rights violations. But sadly, for many decades, fifty years or so, our church leaders never admitted any

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oppression and never admitted that there were any serious problems or any religious persecution or any incidents when believers were victimized for their faith. I think that this criticism comes from people who do not understand the nature of the relations between church and state in the difficult years of our history.

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It is always easier to be a critic than a performer. I must say that the relations between church and state were not always brilliant. I don't think that the position of the hierarchy was always something to be admired. But I think that in all probability, history will soon have its say in the matter.

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But did the years of accommodation with the Kremlin serve the church or betray it? After the war, the patriotic stand of church leaders was rewarded by the reopening of thousands of churches. The policy of not rocking the boat seemed to be working.

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The bishops were grateful. A few medals came their way too. This year, our homeland celebrated the 40th anniversary of the October Revolution. This same year, our church celebrates the 40th anniversary of the re-establishment of

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the patriarchy, which was possible only under Soviet government when the church obtained freedom in its internal affairs. That same year, Khrushchev greeted church leaders warmly. Little did they know he was about to launch a new attack on the church, enlisting the

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services of the bishops themselves. In 1961, the bishops met and took a decision that helped close two-thirds of the churches reopened after the war. They voted away a priest's day-to-day control of his parish.

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To free him, they said, for more spiritual matters. Essentially, the bishops' convention of 1961 made the priest equal in rights to, say, any worker hired by the parish. to a glazier or an icon painter.

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In other words, the priest was put in the same category as any temporary employee of the parish. He shared their status. He became one of those who could be hired or fired at any time.

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The church was forced into a situation in which it had no choice. It is difficult for someone who did not live through these things to understand the complexity of the situation. And we can say in all seriousness that there was no option.

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It was not merely conformism, a step backwards, or colonies. It was a conscious decision on the part of the Church to salvage at least something of what it longed to preserve. (singing in foreign language)

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- 10 years later, again under intense state pressure, a major church council confirmed the transfer of the priest's power to a committee of three lay people led by a church warden.

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In an opening speech, a government official denied state interference. (speaking in foreign language) I warmly welcome the participants of the local council,

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the honorable guests, the heads and representatives of foreign churches and international religious centers. There are quite normal relations

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between the state and the church. The state does not interfere in the internal affairs of the church. Delegates were not taken in. Father Sergei Hakal was there representing Russian Orthodox clergy from the British Isles.

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You couldn't but describe it as a tense atmosphere. Anybody who tried to speak about 1961 was given minimal opportunities to do so. And if it was known that they would speak on that subject, they were even prevented right from the very start. Some people would have wished to speak on it who were local bishops.

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One we know about, a good, dedicated man, a little man crippled by his experiences, who had prepared very well alternative statutes, reforming the 1961 statutes without doing too much damage to the phraseology. In other words, not much face lost if they were accepted. These had been ruled out of court long before. He sat silent at this council.

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He had nothing to say on the subject. When asked later why he had kept so silent, he said, "Twelve years I had of the camps, and you must forgive me. "I cannot take any more."

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For Father Alexei, that crucial 1961 decision means he's had no real control of his church. He's had no say in the choice of the person who does have control, the warden.

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He says some wardens are not even believers. This is my third parish, and I've never had a warden that I could get on with. Most of them are people who pursue their own goals. They're usually not church people, and they completely misunderstand spiritual life.

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Let us take my first parish of the Saviour, near the town of Volokolamsk, where I served for three and a half years. When I started, the priest's salary was minimal, because the parish was tiny. But when I left, we had 60 to 80 christenings on a Sunday. Would you believe it? It all ended in tragedy, because the warden constantly informed on me.

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This conflict ended in my transfer. I was bluntly told that it was because of the warden's constant complaints, the fact that we couldn't find a common language. By God's grace, the year of the Millennium celebration

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is also a time which has brought the hope of a new freedom and of new possibilities for the Church of Russia. The millennium is not an act of historic remembrance alone. Four days ago, an international meeting at Zagorsk

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gave new hope to parish priests throughout the country. Watched by the world's press and the chairman of the Council for Religious Affairs, the Russian Orthodox Church was at last able to throw out the 1961 decision. Parish priests can now be reinstated at the heart of local Christian communities.

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The very climate of the country is changing, and changing so radically that I don't think that there could be a return to the bad times. Everything is in the hands of God, but we pray that the changes which are taking place will be irreversible.

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Father Gleb Yakunin is also optimistic, but he still sounds a note of warning to his bishops. We believe that Gorbachev and Perestroika will overcome our present problems by revitalizing the community, including, of course, the Church. However, a Christian must be aware that there are other possible outcomes.

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This is a unique moment. If we lose this chance, if the enemies of Perestroika suddenly regain the upper hand, and the Church will once again be in a vulnerable position. God and history will never forgive us if we lose this wonderful opportunity.

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Today, leaders of both Church and State are concentrating in public on what unites, rather than what divides them. The church has been isolated for years. It's now beginning to re-emerge in the mainstream of Soviet life.

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Atheists are revising the old sweeping condemnations of religion. A sense of new shared discovery is growing between believers and non-believers. But the divisions and misunderstandings of painful times will take years to disappear. This is their world, the Bible, prayers, the church service.

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If, of course, you are only preparing yourself here on earth for life after death, then religion suffices. In my view, I would define atheism as optimistic, and I would define religion as pessimistic. [singing in Russian] [speaking in Russian]

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Our experience of living in an atheist state has brought about all that we're witnessing now. The human soul robbed of its faith is like a bird without wings. [singing]

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[singing in Russian] (singing in foreign language) [music] Next week a new series of Heart of the Matter begins when Joan Bakewell visits the parish of St Agnes in Andersonstown,

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where horrific violence took place following the killing of three IRA members in Gibraltar. How is this beleaguered community coping now? Heart of the Matter is at 5 past 10 next Sunday. Later this evening we have highlights of two of today's major sporting events.

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In half an hour the Canadian Grand Prix, and at midnight the final of the International Tennis Championships at Queen's Club London. First on, one soup cook continues the series about... [BLANK_AUDIO]

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