00:00:03.340 - 00:00:19.440

>> It's carrying this big and his shoulder kind of went out. >> Oh, that one looks great. >> It does everything the big one does, really. >> I finally had put my foot down and said, "We either get a new camera that's smaller or I'm quitting."

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>> Because she was really -- >> Ruining her back and shoulder. >> Those guys who do this for a living, they earn their money. >> Oh, boy.

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>> It's impressive. >> I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Nell Bright. She was a WASP class 43-7.

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We're in her home in Sedona, Arizona. Today is the 17th of November, 2001. The videographer is Nancy Parrish. Okay, Nell, Mickey, you'll start off by giving us your full name

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and when and where you were born, and we'll go from there. - All right, Nell Stevenson Bright. Stevenson was my maiden name. I was born in Floyd, Ada, Texas.

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- Oh, you're a Texan. - Absolutely. - Okay. Now tell me about your mom and dad.

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- My mother and dad were, well, we were brought up in Silverton, Texas. My dad was a banker in Silverton, and then in Floyd, Ada. My mother is a graduate of TWU, back in 1909, I believe, and taught

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school in Silverton right after they married. Do you have siblings? I had a brother, older brother, four years older than me. As a young child, where did you live? Did you live in town or out in the country?

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What is your earliest recollection as a child? I can remember always having a very happy home. My mother always said that my father spoiled me, so I had about everything that I wanted. We had a beautiful home in Floydeda.

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I remember my dad played golf a lot at the country club there, and he taught me to swim when I was about six years old. We always, all during the summer, went swimming at the country club all the time. Tell me about your grandparents.

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I don't remember my grandparents. The only grandparent that was still living was my dad's mother. She died when I was about six years old, but I do remember seeing her. They lived in Silverton.

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My dad's family came up in wagons from Dallas County up to Briscoe County when my dad was was just small. My grandfather fought in the Civil War, was also an Indian fighter in the Texas Panhandle, and there were nine children in their family.

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Grandma Stevenson lived a lot longer than he did, and I do remember calling on her. She received her grandchildren in her parlor. And we would go in and visit with Grandma Stevenson while she was smoking her little corncob pipe.

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Did you ever visit her, say, in the summertime, vacations or anything? No, no. No. That was—you had to be invited to visit Grandma Stevenson.

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In this town, did you have other relatives that lived near? Steele: Not when I was growing up. Well, yes, I did, too. One of my father's sisters lived in Floydetta.

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There were twin girls in the family. They were the only girls. There were nine children in his family. They were very strong people.

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How far was this school from where you lived? Steele: It was just right in town in Floyd, Ada. Kelly: You walked? Steele: As I did the best of my recollection, I did.

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Kelly: Do you recall when you first started school? Steele: I really do not, to tell you the truth. I remember taking music lessons when I was a child, but I do not remember a whole lot about my first grades in school.

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I remember that I skipped the second grade or third grade or something, because my mother, evidently, since she was a teacher, she had taught us a lot before we ever started to school. Your music lessons, did you go to someone's home?

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Yes, I went to Mrs. Kirk. I went to her home for piano lessons. Do you recall, was that your idea or your mom's idea? It was probably their idea.

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But I enjoyed it very much. I liked it. How long did you take music lessons? I took music lessons until I was about in the fifth grade, and at that time we moved

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to Canyon, Texas. In those first five years of school, do you recall any teachers that you especially liked? I don't even recall anybody but my music teacher, to tell you the truth. My school that I really recall was when -- actually, I guess I was in -- I had just finished fourth

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grade when we moved to Canyon. That was -- I attended the West Texas Demonstration School, which was the school that was in connection with West Texas University in Canyon. We had practice teachers, and they ran the school just like they ran the college classes.

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If we didn't have a class until ten o'clock, we didn't go to school until ten o'clock. We were responsible for all of our homework. We didn't have study halls. We could go to the library and get it.

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But we just better be sure and have it. So we were taught responsibility for everything that we did. Did your dad go into banking in Canyon also, or did he change jobs? He was in the loan business and insurance business in Canyon.

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Because we went through the banks going closed during the Depression before President Roosevelt had the bank holidays. And in Canyon, did you live in town there also? Yes.

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How large was Canyon? Canyon was about, oh, four thousand people. And your school close enough to walk? Yes.

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Do you recall what you did for lunch? Usually would come home for lunch, would walk home for lunch. And now you're in maybe fifth grade? Fifth grade.

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And how many years did you go to that one school? through high school. Kelly: All the way through. Let me ask you, when you were growing up, what was a Christmas like in your home?

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Dunn: It was celebrated very much, because we were a very close family. My aunts and uncles came on both sides, because there was a big family on both sides, my mother's family and my dad's family. We had lots of celebrations during Christmas.

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It was always a great time, all holidays. Would some of the family come and spend the night with you? Uh-huh. Do you recall what a Christmas dinner was like and who would fix it?

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All my mother would always fix the Christmas dinners. Even during the Depression, there would be chicken, ham, turkey, whatever. Because one of my aunts, they had a farm out by Tulia, Texas. And of course, they raised everything.

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But even at that time in town, people had chickens, because the houses were not real close together. And people would have chickens, and some people even had a little barn and little cows right town, so everybody had their own, fixed their own meals.

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But no, my mother always did, she was a great cook and she always did everything, and didn't particularly want anybody else in the kitchen helping her either. Do you recall any church celebrations or anything that you attended, or school, Christmas parties? We went to the Baptist Church in Canyon.

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My dad was a deacon in the church, so we always were there for their Christmas tree, where they would have a Christmas tree at the church, usually on Christmas Eve, and give out little bags of candy and fruit and things to all the children. Kelly: When you were growing up, how did you spend your summers?

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Did you go on family vacations, for example? Diveney: There was not money to go on family vacations at that time. I spent most of my summers out on the farm with my aunts. During that time, my mother would come out, too, and all the kids were put to work shelling

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Peeling the peas, snapping the beans, peeling the tomatoes, doing everything so that we canned everything, and getting ready for the winter so we would have plenty to eat during the winter. We did that during the daytime.

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We would get on our horses and go down to where the cattle were down by the lake at farm and round up the cattle in the evenings and bring them back up for milking. Did you learn to milk? Never did.

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What was your favorite thing to do on the farm? Swim in the horse tank and ride horses. We had lots of good food to eat. Did you have cousins that were about your age?

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I had a cousin that was just my age. He was my age, and then he had a little sister that lived there on the farm. As a matter of fact, he and I went on to school, college together. I was probably closer to him than I was my own brother, because my brother was four years

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older than I was. Out on that farm, did they have electricity and running water? Steele: After a while, they did. When they built the new house, they did.

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But to begin with, they didn't. Kelly: In elementary and junior high school, do you recall—well, in junior high, do you recall any teachers there that influenced you? Steele: Well, actually, we didn't have junior high school.

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We went through elementary school through seventh grade, and then high school, four years in high school. I finished high school in three years. Yes, I had very good teachers during all of that time.

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But there was not a lot to do in Canyon except go to school, so we went to school most of So I finished high school when I was just barely fifteen. Kelly: What were you interested in as far as subjects in high school? Dunn: In drama.

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Kelly: Okay. Do you recall any plays where you had a big part? Dunn: Yes, in the senior play. I had the lead in the senior play.

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Kelly: Okay, so you played the engineer. Dunn: Um-hmm. Kelly: Do you remember the name of that play? Dunn: Don't even remember the play.

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No, I don't. Did you have other extracurricular activities, for example, sports? We didn't have much sports, but we played baseball. And then we had Lela and I, Lela Harding, who also ended up at WASP.

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We were in the same class together. Lela and I went to school together from fourth grade, and we ended up in the same class in the WASP. Lela and I were cheerleaders in high school for the—I guess it was the basketball team because our old school was not big enough to have a football team, I don't think.

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Kelly: Do you recall what your little costume looked like? McMillan: Yes, it was just a rather short skirt, which they didn't do too much of at that time, but pretty much like they are now, I'll tell you the truth. Kelly: When you were growing up, who were your role models?

00:14:23.350 - 00:14:48.320

Dunn: Well, I would say that my mother and father were very much so. Then the drama teacher in our high school that I liked very much, and then she went She was teaching part of the time in the college there, too. And my journalism professor, because I enjoyed journalism, too.

00:14:49.460 - 00:15:01.160

Did you have a school newspaper? Yes, and I worked on that, too. Writing or editing? It was mostly writing, I guess.

00:15:04.040 - 00:15:23.120

What were your dreams when you were in high school? Steele: My dreams in high school were to finish college as fast as I possibly could and go to a place that was a lot larger than Canyon, Texas. [Laughter.]

00:15:23.740 - 00:15:43.140

And evidently, you were a very good student or you wouldn't have skipped grades. Steele: Yes, school was always very easy for me. In high school, what were your social activities like? Steele: Well, we had a little sorority that we formed.

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Lela was also a member of this. Lela and I laugh about this. It was called the Mahaka Club, and that stood for "Man-Haters Club," because we just decided that we were all much smarter than all the boys in them.

00:16:01.120 - 00:16:21.840

So we joined up at our little social club. Tell me about your high school prom. Another thing we had in high school that I thought was kind of unusual, not only the prom, but the parents, we had a dance every month.

00:16:24.200 - 00:16:42.240

The parents would do that at the homes. It would be all formal. The girls would have formal dresses and the boys would be all dressed up. Of course, at that time, as you recall, there was hardwood floors with the rugs on the floors.

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They would roll up the rugs so that we could dance and we'd have the music off on the victrolas. And then the mothers and fathers with the chaperone. Of course, the mothers always had refreshments, and this was just a big social thing in high

00:17:02.620 - 00:17:24.580

school for us. And I think that the parents thought, "Well, we learned a lot of social skills also." And it was a really good experience for us, and it gave us a real social thing to look forward to every month.

00:17:25.610 - 00:17:48.640

Kelly: Let me ask you, since your dad was a deacon in the Baptist Church, was this kind of a no-no in the church you attended? Diveney: Probably. But my mother and father were very independent-thinking people, and they were very loyal churchgoers.

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But they were not fanatical. Kelly: Now about your prom. Did you have a prom as such? Davidson: At the school.

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I don't believe we did. I don't remember. No, I don't think we did. Kelly: Do you recall your graduation from high school?

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Davidson: Yes, we had a graduation there at the high school. This was sort of a private school, so there wasn't as many graduating. We didn't have as many in our graduating classes they had at Canyon High School, which was the public school.

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Did you have caps and gowns? Yes. Do you recall if your school had a baccalaureate service? Yes, we did.

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And where was that held? That was held in the auditorium at the college. Because we did, since we were connected with the college, we did so many things right there on the university campus.

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Kelly: Were you into music in high school? Were you in a glee club, for example? Steele: No, I started playing cello in high school, and I was in the orchestra. Did it also play for the ball games?

00:19:14.780 - 00:19:33.040

Steele No, no, we didn't have a band. We just had a little orchestra and that was all. Who inspired you to play the cello? That just happened to be the one instrument that they were going to give lessons on.

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I didn't want to do the violin because that was too squeaky. I just thought that would be interesting, so I started taking lessons on the cello. Kelly: And can you still play the cello? Dunn: I haven't for a long time, but I played all through college.

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And then I did play with the El Paso Symphony when I was stationed at El Paso, and I played with the Emerald Symphony for a while. But I haven't played in years. I also played chamber music in college with my husband, who of course I was not married

00:20:09.700 - 00:20:22.860

to then. He and I, it was our second marriage. Weldon and I played chamber music together. We had another friend of ours played violin.

00:20:23.120 - 00:20:45.200

Weldon played piano, I played cello. We played for the dinner club in Amarillo once a month at the Amarillo Club. Kelly: When you graduated from college, did you know when you graduated where you were going to school, where you were going on to college?

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Davidson: You mean when I graduated from high school? Kelly: Uh-huh. Davidson: Yes, I knew I was going right on to West Texas State out there. Kelly: Why did you pick out that particular school?

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Dunn: Well, I didn't really have much choice. It was right there in town, and that was still—we were just coming out of the Depression. I graduated from high school in 1937. We were just coming out of the Depression, and one reason my family, my mother and father,

00:21:14.520 - 00:21:30.120

moved to Canyon was because there was a college there, and they knew that then if they were were living in the same town, they would be able to somehow afford to send my brother and me to college. Kelly: When you started college, how did your life change?

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Did you still live at home? Dunn: I still lived at home, yes. Kelly: And could you walk? Dunn: I walked, yes.

00:21:36.040 - 00:21:57.540

Kelly: What was going to be or what was your major in college? Dunn: My major was—I had a double and triple major. I majored in drama, and I also was a minor in English, but I took as much English as I did in journalism, was a minor in journalism, and then I also took economics.

00:21:59.440 - 00:22:27.320

Do you recall in college any outstanding teachers there that influenced you? Our English teacher, who was absolutely electric and teaching Shakespeare, Dr. Frohnenberger, It was absolutely wonderful. Our music teacher and our orchestra leader, Dr. Clark, and our drama teacher, Mrs. Brown,

00:22:28.160 - 00:22:57.380

and Dr. Lazarus, I believe his name was, that was also in drama. I was in the plays, in nearly all of the plays in college, and also worked on the paper, was business manager of the yearbook for two years. In drama, did you also work on things other than being in the play, for example, costumes

00:22:57.440 - 00:23:08.900

and props? Props, yeah, stage manager, yeah. you were in college during the summer, did you still go out to the farm? Sullivan: No, I went to school.

00:23:09.080 - 00:23:30.720

Kelly: All summer? Sullivan: I took extra courses in the summer. By the time I graduated, by the time I got my degree, I had almost—because I had gone to school summer and winter, because it was just so much more fun to go to school than anything else—I had almost enough credits

00:23:30.720 - 00:23:50.180

to get a master's by the time I got through, if I had written a thesis or something. Kelly: Do you recall just one of the plays that you were in in college? McMillan: Yes, I was in "You Can't Take It With You," did the ballet dancer, Essie. Kelly: Had you taken ballet?

00:23:50.280 - 00:24:07.940

McMillan: Yes, I had. Kelly: From what age? I had taken, when I was in high school, they had offered dance at our high school. Instead of basketball or sports or something, they had offered dance.

00:24:08.410 - 00:24:37.000

Kelly: In college then, what was your social life like? Were you still smarter than the boys? Of course, I thought so. Working on the yearbook and the paper, I did a lot of going with the guys that were doing

00:24:37.100 - 00:24:59.080

photography and things of the social. I did not join a sorority. I was asked to join sorority, but I was too busy doing other things. At that time, I was very active in the Baptist Student Union, and had a lot of social things

00:24:59.120 - 00:25:17.320

involved in that, and also in our journalism group. Let me go back and ask you if in elementary, junior high, if you were in Girl Scouts or any of those activities. No, I wasn't.

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No, I wasn't. Okay. What was your plan for what you would do with your life after you graduated from college? What were you planning?

00:25:29.760 - 00:25:48.780

Well, I first went into—the one thing I was not going to do was teach school. I did not take enough education classes that there was no way I could get a teacher's certificate because I figured if I didn't take enough education classes, then I couldn't be put into teaching school.

00:25:51.440 - 00:26:09.960

I was very much interested in working on the newspaper, which I did. I got a job right after I got out of school and working for the Amarillo Times in Amarillo and moved to Amarillo. What was your job at the institute?

00:26:11.260 - 00:26:33.020

I started out selling advertising and working in the advertising department. Was that hard for your mom and dad to adjust to your leaving home? No, I don't think so. My mother and dad always encouraged us to be independent.

00:26:33.280 - 00:26:52.660

I was driving a car when I was thirteen, and of course we had already started the CPT program, the civilian pilot training program, at our college. I was not able to get into it because they only took one girl for every ten guys, but I was out there.

00:26:52.740 - 00:27:13.920

I was interested, and I was out there bumming rides a lot. Where were you and what do you remember about Pearl Harbor? Steele: I was working in Amarillo, living at this boarding house, and we were all sitting around listening to the radio when we heard it on a Sunday evening.

00:27:14.420 - 00:27:30.080

Kelly: When was the first time that you really got interested in flying? Steele: When I was a senior in college. The boy I was engaged to was in the civilian pilot training program, and he was learning to be a pilot.

00:27:31.160 - 00:27:49.580

I was also interested in it. Now I ask you about your social life, so you must have had some social life. We started going together when he came there as a senior, and we started going together when he came to West Texas State.

00:27:49.700 - 00:27:58.620

He was from New York State. Kelly: So you became interested in flying. Was this after Pearl Harbor? Steele: No, this was before.

00:27:59.040 - 00:28:10.020

This was when I was a senior in college. Kelly: Okay. And then what did you do with that desire? When did you first go up in an airplane, for example?

00:28:10.200 - 00:28:35.580

Steele: Well, I went up when I was a senior in college. I did go up, but I didn't start taking lessons until after we both got out of college. Then he was still flying, because he was getting ready to go into the Air Force. So he did go into the Air Force before Pearl Harbor.

00:28:36.940 - 00:28:55.020

As you know, at that time, the boys could not be married and go into the Air Force. They were not allowed to—they had to be single. He went into the Air Force, and he was in training, in primary training, at the time of Pearl Harbor in California.

00:28:57.140 - 00:29:26.880

I was in Amarillo. And then he went on and finished his training and went to B-25 school. And as soon as he got out of there, he was sent to the South Pacific. And he was over there probably two months when he was killed.

00:29:29.960 - 00:29:49.840

So after that, after he went overseas, I started my flying lessons in Amarillo when I was still working at the paper. Was it because of him that you were inspired to start learning to fly? Yes, I think so.

00:29:50.560 - 00:30:00.380

Partly anyway. I mean, I enjoyed it. I had wanted to fly for a long time, but that was part of it, too. How far was the airport out from Amarillo?

00:30:02.120 - 00:30:06.600

About twenty minutes. Did you have a car? Uh-huh. Okay.

00:30:07.100 - 00:30:27.560

How did you engage that first instructor to teach you to fly? We had—I got acquainted with people there in Amarillo who were interested in flying, and so there was about ten people that pulled money to start a flying club and bought a Taylorcraft.

00:30:29.180 - 00:30:58.920

And so I was able to go into the club, and then we had an instructor that was teaching other people also out at English Field in Amarillo. And we could fly for a dollar and a half an hour in our little T-craft. Do you recall your first solo?

00:30:59.360 - 00:31:21.040

Yes, I do. And it was, of course, flying in West Texas, you always land crosswind, practically. You can remember that from Sweetwater. And the wind always blows an amaryllis, never stops.

00:31:23.240 - 00:31:43.440

And the Taylorcraft, of course, is so light that it just floats, you know. If you just turn the power off, you can float into any place in that little airplane. But it was really a thrill just to take off and finally fly that airplane by myself. Kelly: Did you know any other girls who were flying?

00:31:43.540 - 00:31:56.380

Davis: Not at that time, no, I did not. Kelly: So what made you think that it would be acceptable for a girl to learn? Davis: Well, that did not even enter my mind, whether it was acceptable or not. I wanted to do it.

00:31:57.440 - 00:32:11.640

My mother and father had always taught me that you can do anything you want to do. They were very supportive in what I wanted to do. Kelly: I wanted to ask you, how did they feel about your flying? Steele: They were very supportive of it.

00:32:12.760 - 00:32:37.760

Kelly: You kept flying until when did you learn about the training program for the war? Well, I was waiting to go up one day out at English Field and saw in this flying magazine about the WAFs, about Nancy Love, and then they were talking about possibility of training and so forth.

00:32:38.660 - 00:33:06.260

And by that time, I already had my private license and I had about seventy-five hours. And so I immediately got the address either out of that magazine or from someplace, and I wrote to Cochran, I guess, or whatever address that was in there anyway. Then I was contacted to come to Fort Worth for an interview.

00:33:08.360 - 00:33:17.900

And I was interviewed by Jacqueline Cochran in Fort Worth. How did you get to Fort Worth? Did you drive? I went on the Greyhound bus, I believe.

00:33:18.800 - 00:33:32.980

I did, yes. And I had a cousin that lived down there, so I made arrangements to stay with her. Do you recall that interview, and if so, tell us about that interview? What was her attitude?

00:33:33.440 - 00:33:57.180

Her attitude was—I was very much impressed. She was just a great lady. She was very gracious and she was impressed that I already had my college degree. At that time, since I had my private license and seventy-five hours or more, I was qualified

00:33:58.580 - 00:34:14.660

to go in. She gave me some information about it and felt sure that if I passed the physical, I would be accepted and that I would hear from them, which I did. Where did you have to go to take the physical?

00:34:15.960 - 00:34:36.780

I believe I took it from the same doctor in Amarillo that I'd taken for my private license. Which was not an Army doctor? That I don't recall. Then how were you notified that you—

00:34:36.780 - 00:34:56.500

by letter to report. I still have the letter, as a matter of fact. Kelly: And your mom and dad knew what you were doing? McMillan: Oh, yes. At that time, the war was going on, and everybody was doing whatever they could. My dad was on the ration board, and he was head of the ration board there

00:34:56.520 - 00:35:15.580

at Canyon by that time with everything else he was doing. Kelly: Do you remember what was rationed, some of the things? Sugar, especially, tires, gasoline. How did you get from Canyon then down to Sweetwater?

00:35:16.720 - 00:35:40.700

I had my own car, because when Vance went overseas, he had signed his car over to me. It was a car that he had bought from my dad, actually. So I had that car, and so I had my own car, so I drove to—and when I was getting ready to go to—I hadn't seen Lila since we both graduated from college.

00:35:42.620 - 00:36:07.420

Lila Harding, Lila Louder Harding, she now lives in Oklahoma City. And my mother and Lila's mother, Janie, ran into each other in the grocery store, And of course, they both were always talking about their girls that were just taking off into the wild blue yonder everywhere after college.

00:36:09.360 - 00:36:22.560

And Janie wanted to know what I was doing. And my mother says, "Well, you won't believe, but she's going into the Air Force, and she's going to Sweetwater." And Janie says, "Well, you won't believe it, but Leila's doing the same thing.

00:36:23.080 - 00:36:43.480

And Leila is at home now getting ready to go." came home and told me. I called Lela. We got together and realized we had been, she had been in Corpus Christi, I had been in Amarillo, we neither one knew we were doing this, and we ended up in the same class. So we drove down together and we were bay mates.

00:36:45.180 - 00:37:00.820

When you mentioned that Vance bought the car from your dad, was it just a private deal or was your dad in the car business? My dad had a used car business also. When you got down to Sweetwater, what was your first impression of Avenger Field?

00:37:01.350 - 00:37:20.560

Steele: Well, it was just—my first impression was it was just a great field. I was from West Texas. It was no different to me than where I'd been flying from. I'd grown up in all that flat country with no trees, so I thought, "Well, gee, this

00:37:20.640 - 00:37:35.540

is just great." Because all of that was familiar territory to me. Kelly: What did impress you about Avenger Field? Dunn: Just the fact that I was there and going to get to fly those big airplanes.

00:37:35.950 - 00:38:10.880

Kelly: Had Ms. Cochran told you what to expect if you finished the training program? She had told me what she would like for the girls, and what her message wanted to be, that we could fly whatever the men could fly, that we could prove this. And it was kind of impressed upon us that we had quite a responsibility.

00:38:11.100 - 00:38:40.480

Did she tell you the importance of training women to fly? Steele: Yes, yes she did. She had a real message there. So, in addition to being patriotic, it was also to prove pretty much that the women could

00:38:40.560 - 00:38:44.960

do the same thing? Steele: Right. I think so. Kelly: Okay.

00:38:45.820 - 00:39:10.820

When you arrived at Avenger, how were you assigned to rooms, or where did you live? Steele: We lived in the barracks there, in the bays, and we were assigned—Lila and I asked to be put in the same bay, and we were. Mostly they assigned it in alphabetical order, unless you had a special request, a special

00:39:10.940 - 00:39:23.440

friend. So they let us room together. Describe the training at Avenger, not only flying training, but any other training that you received.

00:39:25.500 - 00:39:48.720

We marched everywhere we went, got out of bed early in the morning, marched to breakfast, and then in the mornings we would either fly or go to ground school. If we flew, we'd go to ground school in the afternoon. If we flew in the afternoon, we went to ground school in the morning.

00:39:51.420 - 00:40:07.020

And we were kept busy all the time. Tell me about ground school. What did you take in ground school? We had all kinds of math and physics and—what else did we have?

00:40:07.500 - 00:40:20.860

Morse code. And Morse code. Was there anything in those courses that was difficult? Physics was, because I had purposely not taken a lot of math in college, because I didn't

00:40:20.860 - 00:40:36.720

I was really surprised that I was able to do the physics when we got down there for ground school. What was your favorite thing to study in ground school? I don't know that any of it was my favorite.

00:40:37.520 - 00:40:55.520

The meteorology part, I liked that probably better than any of it. Where did you eat? We had a regular mess hall that we ate, and then the rec room, which we could hang out in if we ever had time.

00:40:55.950 - 00:41:07.480

What was the food like? It was ordinary Army food, I guess. It was pretty good. We worked so hard, we were so hungry by the time we would eat practically anything.

00:41:09.140 - 00:41:17.500

So we complained about it, of course, but it was okay. It wasn't bad. Okay, we're going to change tapes. Finish one take.

00:41:18.080 - 00:41:20.780

How you doing? On to two. Doing fine. You doing okay?

00:41:20.920 - 00:41:27.360

Am I doing too many "uh's"? Oh, no. No, you're doing very... Listen, you're going to be very easy to transcribe.

00:41:29.060 - 00:41:37.200

No, you're doing great. Because your words are very distinct, so that... I think, what did she say? I want to know about this rec room.

00:41:38.160 - 00:41:49.720

I've seen pictures of it, but nobody's talked about it. I guess it's because nobody ever went in there. Did you get the other ones in Oklahoma? Yes, we got Betty Riddle.

00:41:50.000 - 00:41:56.780

And Betty Smith? If you need some water or anything. No, I'm fine. Okay.

00:41:57.120 - 00:42:07.200

I'm going to get up and tweak while you're going, but I'm rolling. I'm just going to walk back here while you're talking. Alright. Tell us about the rec room at Avenger.

00:42:08.800 - 00:42:25.260

We're rolling again. Yes, we are. The rec room was right off the mess hall. As I recall, there was a piano in there, and there was a ping-pong table, and there were

00:42:25.300 - 00:42:47.080

places to sit. There was, I believe, some kind of a Coke machine or something like that. If we had extra time, we could just go up there and hang out and talk and hang or fly. And if we had any visitors that came to see us, that's where we would visit with them,

00:42:47.780 - 00:43:01.600

because we were not allowed to take any visitors past where the barracks were, down into that part. Do you recall having a lot of extra time? No, I don't.

00:43:02.860 - 00:43:18.800

There was not a lot of extra time. If there was any extra time, you wouldn't just go to sleep. Kelly: Tell me about some of your other baymates other than Lela. Steele: Frances Thompson, Tommy, we called her.

00:43:20.980 - 00:43:36.440

She was an excellent pilot. She was a ranch girl from Arizona. Tommy and I became very close. Rusty McLean, who used to fly for Piper, was one of Piper's girls.

00:43:38.040 - 00:43:58.320

Thelma Bloom, who was a Redhead at that time, saw Thelma. She was one that got—she got sick, I believe, at Denton this last time and had to go back home. She was at Oshkosh a couple of years ago, the first time I'd seen her for a long time.

00:43:59.720 - 00:44:20.160

And Josephine Nathan, who washed out when she was in Advanced. Do you know why she washed out? She just—no, I don't. A lot of the girls, we didn't know why they washed out.

00:44:20.260 - 00:44:34.620

And some of them, I think that some of the Army check pilots decided it was time to flunk somebody. I think lots of times we were just lucky that maybe we weren't flying any better than anybody else.

00:44:34.700 - 00:44:48.820

We were just lucky that we got through. How did that make you feel? Oh, we were just crushed because we all were—you know, it was terrible when anybody washed out because they had to pack up and go home.

00:44:48.900 - 00:45:07.460

It was terrible because you never knew whether you might be the next one. Now, what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make? The biggest adjustment was, I guess, living in the room with six other girls. If you had any modesty, you lost it pretty fast.

00:45:10.580 - 00:45:23.960

I believe at least where we were, we had one bathroom between—so there was twelve girls sharing one bathroom. Kelly: That wasn't easy. Steele: That was not easy, no.

00:45:25.040 - 00:45:32.980

Tell me about your solo flight. What did you start flying? Steele: We started on PT-19s. What?

00:45:34.060 - 00:45:49.980

That's the primary trainer, low wing primary trainer. Do you recall your solo flight? Yes. I had—my instructor was an aerobatic pilot who had been a barnstormer, and he was a great

00:45:50.040 - 00:46:10.480

instructor. It was—the solo was just absolutely wonderful. Of course, as I think back about the primary trainers, the basic trainers, the T-6s, and the UC-78s, the twin engine that we flew in advance besides the T-6s, all flying off that

00:46:10.560 - 00:46:30.100

same field at one time. How we ever managed to keep from killing each other, I don't know. But it was a wonderful experience. And of course, we did a lot of flying off the auxiliary fields, which was just the cow

00:46:30.320 - 00:46:48.280

pastures out around Sweetwater. Do you recall what they used those mainly for? For our shooting landings, spot landings in primary. When you were in training—

00:46:48.280 - 00:46:51.900

Yes, thank you very much. I'll try not to slouch. Thank you very much. Okay, continue.

00:46:53.180 - 00:47:12.940

Now, what was the difference, do you know, between the training that you received and what the male cadets received? Steele: As far as I know, what we were receiving was the same as the male cadets, except we finished the same number of hours in six months or seven months, where it took them nine months.

00:47:13.460 - 00:47:27.860

Kelly: When you finished primary training, did you have some time off? Steele: No. While you were at Sweetwater, did you ever have some time off on weekends or anything? And if so, what did you do?

00:47:28.430 - 00:47:50.500

Steele: We would have some time off on a Saturday, some time we would have—or Sunday. If we had good weather, then we would have some time off. But if we had bad weather, then we'd have to make up our flying time on the weekends. So the only place to go when we did get off base was into Sweetwater or go to the cabins

00:47:50.560 - 00:48:02.780

out on Sweetwater Lake. Otherwise, there was no place. The people in Sweetwater – I know a couple of times Tommy and I were invited into somebody's home in Sweetwater for Sunday dinner.

00:48:03.760 - 00:48:19.940

But other than that, it was either the Bluebonnet Hotel or Lake Sweetwater. Did you have any traditions with your class about what would happen when you would sow low? Yes, everybody got thrown into the wishing well and dunked.

00:48:20.380 - 00:48:42.420

What was this wishing well? This was a little round pond that had been made up of, I don't know, concrete rocks or whatever, anyway, kind of a little fountain kind of thing, full of water. And before you soloed, you dropped coins in there to make a wish.

00:48:43.280 - 00:49:04.180

Then if you soloed, then your classmates brought you back and picked you up by the heels and your shoulders and tossed you into the wishing well and got you dunked. And in those big heavy zoot suits, you all did well to even get out of it. I was going to ask you, what was your dress while you were going through training?

00:49:04.560 - 00:49:26.500

We had size 44 zoot suits that were made for the men. They had nothing especially for us. Then for the dress codes, we had what they called general pants and white shirts and the khaki caps.

00:49:28.100 - 00:49:45.580

When you finished primary training in that Fairchild, then what was the next step? The basic trainer, the BT-13. And what was that mainly used for? That was used for just a basic trainer.

00:49:46.340 - 00:50:06.860

After we had so many hours in that, they also used it in instrument training. But we had to have so many hours in that particular airplane, and we had our first night solos, our night flying in that airplane also. Did that seem to you to be a big jump from the PTs?

00:50:08.280 - 00:50:22.440

Yes, it did, because that was 450 horsepower, whereas the PTs, I believe, were 175 or something like that. Do you recall any incidents that happened when you were flying in the basic training program?

00:50:22.460 - 00:50:38.240

Reid: Not particularly. I mean, it was—other than, like I say, you know, you just took your life in your hands every time you went up and tried to get in the pattern to come down. But we didn't realize it at that time.

00:50:38.340 - 00:50:58.400

It was just a part of everyday flying, flying with everybody else in the traffic pattern. Let me ask you about the personnel on the base. What was that made up of, as far as the officers or mechanics and instructors? Steele: Most of the instructors were civilians.

00:50:59.320 - 00:51:18.680

Our Czech pilots, we had Czech rides with Army Air Force pilots from, I do not know where they came from, to be there. And then most of the personnel on the base were civilians. Kelly: But the top-notch ones, where were they?

00:51:19.060 - 00:51:27.780

What were they? The commanding officer, for example. Dunn: I believe the commanding officer was Army. I can't remember for sure, but I believe they were.

00:51:28.520 - 00:51:50.280

And then we had, of course, Mrs. Deaton, who was our housemother, who kept—she and her her corps, it's kept everybody in line. Kelly: When you were in training, were there other things that would cause a girl to wash out other than not being able to fly the Army way?

00:51:50.640 - 00:52:09.540

Steele: Well, if she couldn't pass ground school. As I recall, mostly it was if they didn't pass the flight check. But I guess also, I think there was one or two cases of health-wise they couldn't handle it.

00:52:10.280 - 00:52:31.220

And there was some girls that—I remember one girl in our class just absolutely couldn't handle it psychologically or emotionally. Because I think some of the girls thought they were coming down there to a real glamorous situation, and that it wasn't going to be any hard work.

00:52:32.040 - 00:52:50.340

And when they found out that—I mean, if that's what they thought and that's what they expected, and they were not ready to work as hard as we had to work, well, they just quit. Kelly: Do you recall any rules and regulations that they enforced?

00:52:52.300 - 00:53:16.880

Well, they enforced a lot of rules and regulations about when you got up and when you ate and when you went to bed and what you could wear and the fact that you could not date the instructors. And you had to be back at the base at a certain time. We went practically by—even though we were technically civilians under civil service,

00:53:17.040 - 00:53:28.220

We certainly went by Army rules. Kelly: When you finished basic and while you were in basic, did you also get some link trainer? Davis: Yes, we did.

00:53:28.610 - 00:53:46.460

We did that at night, usually. Kelly: Describe what a link trainer is. Davis: Well, the link trainer is just a simulated little tiny airplane-looking thing that helps you in learning to fly by instruments.

00:53:46.570 - 00:54:08.680

Kelly: When you finished basic and went into advanced, then what did you fly? McMillan: We flew the AT-6, and we had several hours in that. In our class, we also had hours in the UC-78, the twin-engine. So we got twin-engine time in our advanced, besides the T-6.

00:54:08.720 - 00:54:31.020

Kelly: In that UC-78, did you always fly with an instructor, or how did that work? Steele: When we both had soloed, we could fly as the two students, pilot and co-pilot. Kelly: In that advanced training, did you get cross-country flights? Steele: Yes, we did.

00:54:31.110 - 00:54:59.760

Kelly: Describe one of those flights for me. Our cross-country flights were not, I don't think, as long as the later classes. It was mostly in and around from there to Amarillo, Oklahoma City, Albuquerque, around in that part of the country.

00:55:00.020 - 00:55:30.000

Kelly: When you were in training, do you remember any incidents or accidents that happened to any of the other girls in training? Steele: I believe there was—not in our particular class, but I think there was some girls that had—well, I say not—there was one incident, not an accident, but Kay Cluess in our class

00:55:30.000 - 00:55:45.080

But if she got out of the traffic pattern, she got lost. She was always ending up landing over at Abilene or someplace else where there were lots of cadets. Mr. Hite was always having to go rescue her.

00:55:46.020 - 00:56:09.040

I do not know how she got through, but she got through. Sometimes, well, just like—Catty got lost in a BT on a cross country and ended up landing in a pasture someplace. There was a guy out there on a tractor, and she landed the BT and went over and asked

00:56:09.040 - 00:56:26.760

him where she was. Found out where she was, got back in the plane, and took off again. Came back, never told him she got lost. Before you graduated, were you given a choice of assignments for after graduation?

00:56:26.760 - 00:56:37.060

Steele: No, we weren't. What would your choice have been, had you had a choice? What did you want to do? Steele: I just—whatever they gave me.

00:56:37.170 - 00:56:50.100

I just wanted to fly, you know. Do you recall your graduation? Yes, we had a wonderful graduation, and my first orders was to go to Childress Air Force Base.

00:56:51.260 - 00:57:03.680

That would be to fly the cadets in the bombardiers. Kelly: Before you get to Childress, after you graduated, did you have some time off to go home? supposed to, yes.

00:57:05.900 - 00:57:33.200

It turned out that there were twenty of us chosen out of our class to go to B-25 transition school. We had already had our orders, different ones of us, to go different places. And Jacqueline Cochran got this—she was notified after we had graduated that day,

00:57:33.340 - 00:58:03.240

that same day, when some of us had already taken off to go home. We were on our way to go home for our leave and then report to our other base. And she got word that she could send twenty of the girls for B-25 transition school. So the ones of us that had already left, they sent the highway patrol out after us.

00:58:03.600 - 00:58:15.100

I was on my way to Amarillo. I can't remember who was with me, probably Lila, I don't know. And they stopped us and told us we had to report back to base. We didn't know why or anything.

00:58:15.300 - 00:58:33.100

We got back to base and got back to Sweetwater. They had gathered them up from all around. Some of them were still there, but our orders had been changed. We were going to Mather Field in California, and we had no leave.

00:58:34.580 - 00:58:58.300

So we just had to report immediately to Mather Field for B-25 transition school. How did you all get out there? Some of them—I drove, I don't know, because I had my car. I drove and had two other—Winnie and Clayton were with me.

00:59:00.300 - 00:59:17.460

I don't know how there was some—I think most of them got there on the train. When you got to Mather, were there WASPs already there? No. They had never—this was the first time the WASP had—I'm sure some of the girls in

00:59:17.640 - 00:59:35.280

Ferry Command had flown B-25s, but this is the first training of B-25s that had happened with the WASP. Now, the class before us, some of those girls had gone to B-26 transition school, but we were the first ones that went to B-25 transition school.

00:59:35.590 - 00:59:52.020

Kelly: Do you recall when you arrived to whom you reported? We reported to the commanding officer, who was in a complete state of shock. Did he know you were coming? Probably about five minutes before we got there.

00:59:52.440 - 01:00:06.980

Where did you live? But we did have a BLQ on post. He was very nice to us. We had a BLQ and we had very nice quarters. Tell me about that training.

01:00:07.520 - 01:00:25.120

We had, we got over 200 hours in the B-25. We flew all the time. When the weather would—we reported flight line at five o'clock in the morning. Sometimes we would sit there and knit until ten o'clock, until the fog lifted, and we

01:00:25.180 - 01:00:34.540

could fly. Our missions, our instructing missions were five hours. We were up five hours at a time. And we did a lot of cross country.

01:00:35.320 - 01:00:53.000

We did a lot of—after we soloed, we did a lot of shooting landings and everything there. Did a lot of night flying, a lot of instrument flying. In that training period, would the instructor have several WASPs in the same airplane?

01:00:54.060 - 01:00:58.140

No. And you'd take turns? No. It would be one instructor to one WASP.

01:00:58.320 - 01:01:16.520

Right. We had a commanding officer, Colonel Wimberly, and we called him "Wimpy." Everybody on the base said he was the colonel of the WPs, the women pilots. He loved his women pilots, and he was just great to us.

01:01:16.900 - 01:01:36.480

But he was in charge of us. On the same base, for the first time, we had twenty of the Tuskegee Airmen there training at the same time we were, the black pilots. Did you ever go up with any of the Tuskegee Airmen, or was it always two WASPs?

01:01:36.480 - 01:01:51.600

Buckner: Oh, it was two WASPs. We would have loved to, but heaven forbid. At that time, it took a while before they—and they were, of course, already commissioned—but they took quite a while before the commanding officer, the main commanding officer of Mayfield

01:01:51.720 - 01:02:07.260

Field, would even let them eat in the officers' club. And we kind of praised Kane about that. And they finally could eat in the Officer's Club, but they had to eat down at one end. So we would go down and sit with them, which upset the white boys from Alabama very much.

01:02:08.800 - 01:02:27.940

What was your social life like at Mason? We didn't have a lot of social life except at the Officer's Club. We got acquainted with a lot of the guys, but we really didn't date very much. We were all flying so much, we didn't have time.

01:02:28.220 - 01:02:44.400

Our main social life was just in the officers' club. Kelly: What was your assignment after Mather? Steele: There were ten of the girls—well, one of the girls got married and quit and went home.

01:02:45.960 - 01:03:03.540

She had a social life at Mather Field. She met a guy and married him and then dropped out. So nine of the girls were sent to March Field at Riverside. And then ten of us were sent to Biggs Field at El Paso to the 6th Total Target Squadron.

01:03:04.160 - 01:03:22.740

Did you request that particular field or they just sent you? We had no choice. And when you got down to Biggs, where did you live there? When we first reported in, there were already some WASPs there, and they were living in

01:03:22.740 - 01:03:45.840

the nurses' quarters. The commanding officer at Biggs Field, which the Total Target Squadron was cleared out this end, it was mainly a B-17 transition school. So we reported in to the main commanding officer there, who could have cared less that we were

01:03:45.620 - 01:04:16.080

reporting in and had no place for us whatsoever. Even though we were on orders and everything else, and said, "Well, we could just stay down in the enlisted WACS barracks." We had our spokesman, Carolyn Clayton, who ended up being a career officer and retired

01:04:16.120 - 01:04:32.680

as a bird colonel from the Air Force later on. But anyway, Clayton was our spokesperson. She told him that she didn't think that was acceptable, but we could spend a night or two there.

01:04:35.540 - 01:04:58.380

We had Army orders, we had officer status. Well, that didn't seem to make any difference. But he had never dealt with 43/7 people before. So we went out, and Clayton got on the phone and called Jacqueline Cochran, who was absolutely

01:04:58.540 - 01:05:17.400

furious. And the next morning, Jackie's plane flew into Bixfield. And the WASPs that were already there were staying in nurses' quarters, because we were supposed to have our own BOQ.

01:05:18.080 - 01:05:45.220

Well, before the day was over, we had our own BOQ, and we didn't spend any more time in the enlisted WACs. And we had the kind of—and I don't know what Jackie said or did, but you can imagine. And anyway, this man was only there about a month before he was transferred someplace

01:05:45.580 - 01:05:52.240

else. Maybe overseas. [Laughter.] But anyway, Jackie took care of us.

01:05:53.280 - 01:06:09.780

And then we had our own commanding officer then of our squadron, Major Dick Akins. Kelly: What were those WASPs doing who were already there? Steele: They were already there flying in the—they were attached to the 6th Tow Target Squadron too.

01:06:10.360 - 01:06:22.000

And some of them were flying the little drone planes. Most of them were from 43, 4, and 5. Kelly: Were they also flying the B-25s? Steele: No.

01:06:22.280 - 01:06:33.380

No, they weren't checked out on those. We were the only ones. So we came in and we checked people out on the B-25s, and then we checked ourselves out on the B-26s and flew those.

01:06:34.120 - 01:06:53.640

And we also in our squadron had the SBD A-24s, Navy, and A-25s. We checked ourselves out on those. We also had a P-47, which we checked ourselves out on the P-47. We also flew the twin-engine Beech, the AT-11, AT-7.

01:06:53.860 - 01:07:16.840

We had a T-6 and a BT-13. And we might fly a strafing mission in the P-47 or A-24, A-25 in the mornings, early morning. And then we might fly a target in the middle of the afternoon in a B-26 or a B-25.

01:07:17.080 - 01:07:31.180

And then we might fly searchlight missions at night in the twin-engine beach. So we flew—we got a lot of flying time in, and we flew different planes all the time. Wonderful experience. Kelly: Describe a tow target mission.

01:07:32.120 - 01:07:45.140

What would you do? Steele: We would go up to certain altitudes. We would be in contact with the ground forces that we were in. This was ground to air, the ground forces being stationed at Fort Bliss, which is right

01:07:45.040 - 01:08:09.060

across the road from Biggs. We would have a certain course to fly, and we would get to our altitude, and we would have a crew chief with us who would then roll out the target sleeve behind the plane. It was supposed to be 2,500 feet between the tail of the plane and where the sleeves start.

01:08:10.400 - 01:08:35.140

And then the ground forces would shoot at the sleeve, and they would shoot with colored bullets so that when we got back and turned the sleeve over to the officer at Fort Bliss, he could tell how many—how his boys were shooting, whether they hit the target or not. Kelly: Do you know what kind of guns they were using?

01:08:36.140 - 01:08:56.460

I have no idea, but it must have been pretty—they were shooting live bullets, I know that. We flew tow target missions at night also, where they would have to get the sleeve in the searchlights and then shoot at the sleeve. We were flying one night, and they must have gotten mixed up about what they were looking

01:08:56.460 - 01:09:15.460

at because the flak started exploding right in front of us instead of behind us. So we had to take a little evasive action there and tell the ground forces to cease and desist. We were rolling in the target and going home.

01:09:15.560 - 01:09:37.400

We weren't flying any longer for them that night. Kelly: Describe what a strafing mission would be. We would go out early in the morning before sunup, get our altitude, and then the fourth storey, Fort Bliss, would be going in convoys out into the boondocks, teaching the boys

01:09:37.480 - 01:09:51.900

how to survive out in that desert. And there would be convoys, there would also be troops already out there. We would know where they were because they would tell us where they were. We would come down out of the sun.

01:09:53.340 - 01:10:18.220

They weren't supposed to be able to see us and go right over the top of their heads. So you would come down right across their heads, as close as you could get. If they were in the convoys, they were supposed to stop and jump out. Or if they were eating breakfast, they were supposed to hit the dirt.

01:10:19.300 - 01:10:44.080

Sometimes they wouldn't, sometimes they wouldn't, and if they wouldn't, well, we'd come down and do it again. And sometimes we'd strafe, three of us in formation. And we were coming down one morning, and this jeep was going—Catty decided she would go

01:10:44.120 - 01:11:05.940

after this little guy in his jeep that was going, and he didn't pay any attention to her. So, Cady says, "Because we could communicate with each other." "Okay," she said, "it's time that he paid some attention to us. Let's get him again." So, we went down right across, and that poor old guy, he jumped out of his Jeep, left the Jeep going out into the desert.

01:11:06.080 - 01:11:15.940

We came back again to see where he was. He'd taken off his white T-shirt and was waving it at us. [Laughter] Kelly: And what were you flying to do that?

01:11:17.560 - 01:11:27.660

Now, the P-47s, describe what you did with those. Steele: Same thing. Steele: Same thing, strafing. Any other type of mission?

01:11:28.270 - 01:11:47.860

Steele: We did what we called window missions. We didn't know what they were, but it was throwing out the foil that the boys at Fort Bliss were learning radar, and of course the foil strips mess up the radar where they can't find the plane.

01:11:48.040 - 01:12:12.600

So we would go up and they—and the crew chief would—we had all these shoeboxes full of these metal, aluminum strips, the foil strips that they would dump out that would go down and that would screw up the radar, trying to teach them how to get by that. We also flew searchlight missions.

01:12:13.180 - 01:12:22.360

Had to have our instrument reading fly searchlight missions, because once they catch you in the searchlight, you're just— Kelly: You're on instruments. McMillan: You're on instruments, definitely.

01:12:23.160 - 01:12:34.220

Kelly: What was your favorite type mission to fly? McMillan: The strafing missions, of course. We loved those. Kelly: Would they give you a choice, or would you just take—

01:12:34.220 - 01:12:46.760

McMillan: Yeah, a lot of times. I mean, he would assign missions, but lots of times some of the people didn't like the stray missions as well as others. So we could swap around.

01:12:47.040 - 01:12:57.560

What was your crew like in B-25, for example? Well, usually it would just be pilot and co-pilot. We just— You had to have somebody to let out your target.

01:12:57.880 - 01:13:11.940

Oh, if we had a target, yeah. Then we would have a crew chief to let out a target or some enlisted man. Sometimes we had a radio operator. While you were at Biggs, did you meet anybody special?

01:13:12.630 - 01:13:27.760

Steele: No, not particularly. We all dated and everything. Kelly: Any interesting incidents that might have happened while you were there at Biggs that you recall?

01:13:28.890 - 01:13:35.340

Steele: Like what? Kelly: Oh, I don't know. Lose an engine? Steele: I didn't.

01:13:36.580 - 01:13:56.800

Tommy had a pretty interesting thing, and then I'll tell you one other thing, too. We were waiting for her one night at the Officer's Club. And she didn't come, and she didn't come. We knew she had a night mission in an A-24.

01:13:56.880 - 01:14:11.560

And of course, we'd gotten back—all of these A-24s and A-25s were old planes that the Navy Maybe should have dumped in the ocean, but they wired them together and sent them back for us to fly in the tow target squadrons. And Tommy finally came in.

01:14:12.460 - 01:14:27.760

And "Where have you been?" Well, she had a little trouble. The engine quit. And she was almost out on the wing to bail out, and it started up again.

01:14:28.820 - 01:14:54.160

So she climbed back in the plane, got the engine started, came on in and landed. Then we did lose a girl. One of the girls in a later class that was sent to El Paso, to the Total Target Squadron, she was the only one out of her class that was sent to the Total Target, and she was

01:14:54.260 - 01:15:18.000

just out of training. On this A-24, there's a stick, the throttle on this side, and then on this side is the landing gear and the dive flaps right together. The crew chiefs were supposed to keep those dive flaps wired so that they couldn't, because

01:15:18.060 - 01:15:45.440

when you took off, you were full power and you had to change hands and fly with the left down, get over here and pull your gear up. And somebody didn't have the dive flap wired quite good enough and she got up and she hit the dive, she got up to, hadn't pulled her gear up and had gotten up not, she didn't

01:15:45.500 - 01:16:12.100

have a whole lot of altitude to move five or six hundred feet and hit the dive flap and of course it just came right in. So that was pretty traumatic for all of us, because we had told her that we didn't think she was ready for that airplane, because we'd all had a lot of experience in those, because

01:16:12.100 - 01:16:25.400

you had to check out by yourself. But you know how it was. She just thought, "Oh, she could do it." That was the worst thing that happened.

01:16:25.830 - 01:16:40.060

Kelly: While you were there, did Ms. Cochran ever come back again? Davis: I believe she did one time. I can't remember for sure, but I think she did. Yes, she did come back in to see how we were doing, one time, I believe, for a very short

01:16:40.260 - 01:16:46.000

visit. Kelly: While you were there, did you get any temporary assignments? Davis: No. Kelly: For example, OCS?

01:16:46.290 - 01:17:07.320

Davis: No. Well, we went back to Sweetwater to instrument school again, which made—we'd gotten instruments there first, and then we got our instrument rating at B-25 school. Then we went back to—they were doing instruments again at Sweetwater towards the close of our

01:17:07.420 - 01:17:16.060

program, so we went back there, some of us. Not all of us. I did, and I think Tommy did. I don't remember who, and I think Bailey did.

01:17:17.380 - 01:17:33.180

Several of us. Did that make you feel that was just redundant, having to go back to the instruments again? Yes, it did, as far as I was concerned. Do you recall when you—well, first let me ask you, is there anything else at Beggs about

01:17:33.260 - 01:17:45.200

your flying that you would want to tell us? Well, it was just—it was very interesting. We got an awful lot of hours in and we got to fly all kinds of different airplanes all the time.

01:17:46.900 - 01:18:05.540

We had a wonderful commanding officer. Once we did get our VOQ, we had seventeen girls there and everybody got along. We still say we had the best deal of anybody. It was just wonderful.

01:18:06.820 - 01:18:19.960

Who was the girl that died and how did she end up in the house? Do you recall who the wasp was that was killed? Ola Mae McDonald. Do you know how they got her body home?

01:18:21.440 - 01:18:32.060

Yes. We had to—Clayton went with her body. We took up collection. Her family was—she was from Texas, from a little farming community there in Texas.

01:18:32.060 - 01:18:46.500

As a matter of fact, she had gone to West Texas State also. Her family didn't have a lot of money. Clayton went home. That was kind of the head of our group.

01:18:47.540 - 01:19:04.060

Clayton went with the body. We took up collection to help pay her burial expenses. Kelly: And the military didn't take care of that? Steele: No, they did not.

01:19:05.120 - 01:19:23.700

And I think Jacqueline Cochran helped with all of them also. As a matter of fact, I know she did. Kelly: Let me ask you about your wings when you graduated. Were they different at that time than they were later on?

01:19:23.740 - 01:19:46.680

Steele: Yes, ours was the last class that had the wings that Jacqueline Cochran had made for us, and they were the same shield as the men had on theirs, except she had the shield smoothed off and had our class, 43-7, on there. Kelly: And then later on, you got in addition another—

01:19:46.680 - 01:20:04.920

Dunn: Another set of wings with the diamond. Kelly: Do you recall when you got new uniforms? Dunn: We didn't get new uniforms until we got to Bixfield. We were still wearing—we were wearing pinks, the Army pinks and the greens.

01:20:08.900 - 01:20:27.200

Do you recall when you received notification about the deactivation and how you felt? Well, we received it, of course, there at Bigsfield. And we were all very disappointed. Some of the girls—there was two or three of the girls that were pretty much ready to

01:20:27.040 - 01:20:41.060

go home and it's okay with them. We were disappointed that we were not taken into the Air Force because that's what we had wanted to do. Of course, we knew the war was kind of winding down.

01:20:41.180 - 01:21:08.260

It wasn't completely wound down then, but we felt that we'd kind of gotten—hadn't and what we deserved. Kind of got a raw deal from the civilian guys that were up there lobbying for us not to get into the Air Force, mainly because we didn't have any veterans' rights or anything.

01:21:10.350 - 01:21:21.760

Kelly: When you were disbanded, did the Army Air Force at Biggs do anything special? McMillan: Oh, they gave us a big party. Kelly: Did they? Tell me about that party.

01:21:22.460 - 01:21:36.120

Well, they just gave us a big send-off, and it was really a big party in the officers' club, and it was really nice. But other than that, I mean, the Army didn't do anything. It was just all the guys there.

01:21:37.980 - 01:21:46.920

And then what were your plans? Did you have any plans? Didn't have any plans at all. Leila and I met up again at home.

01:21:51.480 - 01:22:11.560

Leila and I both knew that the one thing we did not want to do was to stay in Canyon, but we couldn't stay there after all of this time. She liked Corpus Christi, and I liked Phoenix. We were over at her house one afternoon, and her sisters would always kind of throw up

01:22:11.380 - 01:22:24.880

their hands every time Lela and I would start talking about it. We would say, "Well, what are we going to do now?" And Lela said, "Well, I kind of like Corpus Christi." And I said, "Well, I kind of like Phoenix."

01:22:24.880 - 01:22:41.360

And he said, "Well, let's flip a coin and see where we're going to go." So it turned out Phoenix won. So we got all packed up and got in my car, and her dad says, "Do you have a spare tire?" I said, "I don't know."

01:22:41.760 - 01:22:56.840

"Well, you ought to have a spare tire." Lela and I said, "Well, we look at it this way. If we don't know whether we have a spare tire, we're not going to worry about it. So if we don't worry about it, we won't have any problem.

01:22:57.520 - 01:23:13.080

We won't have a flat or anything," which we didn't. We drove to Phoenix, stayed with my aunt. Then we both got a job at Luke Field working in the PX. And that's where I met my first husband.

01:23:13.840 - 01:23:29.420

Were you clerking? No, we were serving drinks. Soft drinks in the snack bar. We're going to change tastes. Man, what a letdown.

01:23:31.600 - 01:23:40.620

That's okay. I know why you were doing it. It wasn't that you loved to serve drinks. No, that's right.

01:23:40.800 - 01:23:46.280

Oh, okay. It changed it then. Okay. That's right.

01:23:46.340 - 01:23:54.980

I'm going to roll again. Okay. All right. And when you were working at the PX, tell me about meeting someone special.

01:23:56.100 - 01:24:12.140

Well, I met Fred Jennings. He was a sergeant, I believe. She had been a gunner in B-17. And we started dating in July.

01:24:14.360 - 01:24:30.420

So when we started dating, Lela hadn't met anybody, so Lela decided that she'd go back to Texas, to Dallas. So she went back to Dallas and got on with American Airlines, as a stewardess, and that's where she met her husband, where she met Jack.

01:24:31.680 - 01:24:48.840

So Fred's nickname was "Jinx." We met in July and we were married in September. Kelly: What attracted you to him? Dunn: Oh, he was just a lot of fun.

01:24:48.940 - 01:24:59.080

I thought it was about time to get married. Kelly: Tell me about your wedding. Dunn: We were married at the chapel out there. I had an aunt in Phoenix.

01:24:59.360 - 01:25:10.700

That's one reason Lela and I came. When we came out, we lived with her for a couple weeks, and then she found us a place to live. Of course, at that time, we just thought that she would be happy to have us forever.

01:25:16.400 - 01:25:43.040

So we were married in the chapel there, and then we lived in Phoenix for a while. And then my dad persuaded him to come back to Canyon and work for him. He then had not only his loan business and insurance, but he had the Plymouth Dodge dealership. Kelly: So your husband got out of the service at that point?

01:25:44.040 - 01:25:57.940

Nussbaum: Because it was in August that the war was over with Japan. And then you moved back to— To Canyon. To Canyon.

01:25:58.180 - 01:26:13.180

And we had two children. When those children were growing up, or even before you had the children, what did you do while he was at work? I worked on the newspaper, a little newspaper there in Canyon.

01:26:14.660 - 01:26:31.680

And then you had your first child, which was a— A boy, Scott. When those two children were growing up, how were you involved with their school, for example? Sullivan: Well, I stayed home until they started school.

01:26:33.020 - 01:26:49.940

In the meantime, we moved back to Phoenix when Margo was only a year old. We moved back in '52. Kelly: What was your husband doing then in Phoenix? And so it wasn't doing anything when we first—we just moved back.

01:26:50.280 - 01:27:05.540

But then he got on—he was an engineer, so he got on out at Goodyear, out at Litchfield Park as an engineer. And I didn't work at all until they started the school. Kelly: And then you worked for the newspaper?

01:27:06.640 - 01:27:45.200

No, not. I got interested with my dad's background as a banker and my growing up there and then my deal in economics. I got interested in the investment world and was able to be As I was talking to somebody about it, they put me in touch with the firm and I then got my training as a stockbroker and I was one of the first women stockbrokers in Phoenix.

01:27:45.820 - 01:28:00.700

Kelly: During the summer, as those children were growing up at vacation time, did your family take vacations together? - Mm-hmm, we'd take vacations together, usually go back, either back to Washington, D.C.

01:28:00.800 - 01:28:13.720

to see his family or go back to Texas to see my family. And as my kids got older, they spent time back there with my parents. - Okay, were they involved in scouting

01:28:13.980 - 01:28:27.100

or what were their interests when they were going out? - Yes, see, I was divorced when they were, when Scott was 10 and Margo was six. And, yes, Scott was in scouting.

01:28:27.280 - 01:28:42.620

He went clear up being Eagle Scout. He was an acolyte in the Episcopal Church. And Margo was interested in dancing and ballet from the time she was very, very small. So that was her big interest.

01:28:43.120 - 01:29:07.200

And then as they got up into—she got up into high school, she was head of the—what They called the Dancing Donettes at Coronado High School. She went on to the University of Utah, where she majored in ballet. After her freshman year, she went to Chicago and studied with Stone and Cameron Ballet

01:29:07.300 - 01:29:34.840

School for a year and did some professional work there, but then decided that she would rather go back to school, which she did and got her degree at the University of Utah. My son went to ASU and then got his degree in geology from NAU, got his master's from the University of Montana, Missoula, in geology.

01:29:35.680 - 01:29:59.000

He's now commuting between Spokane and Africa. Wow. Okay, when you're being a stockbroker, did you have a chance to play that oboe? No, the cello. The cello? I did for a little while, yes. A little bit. But then, you know, there was just raising two kids and everything.

01:29:59.060 - 01:30:17.820

It was just too much to do. But it was one reason that I—and I've always enjoyed doing what I do. But it was nice, too, because I wasn't punching a time clock. And when my kids needed me, I was able to go to all of their things if it was two o'clock in the afternoon or whenever it was.

01:30:17.820 - 01:30:38.500

I could call my own shots. Kelly: And then once they were away from home, were you involved in any volunteer-type work? I got married again, Weldon and I were married then in '63. Okay, tell us about Weldon.

01:30:40.000 - 01:31:13.640

Weldon and I went to college together at West Texas State, and as I told you, we played music together. We were in the orchestra and everything. But romantically you were not involved? No, no. We didn't. That was the furthest thing from either one of our minds. He and his wife came out here in November of '61 or something like that.

01:31:13.860 - 01:31:27.940

Anyway, they came out here and discovered she had leukemia very shortly after and she passed away. And they had two adopted children. Her sister lived in Tucson, so Sarah took the children for about a year.

01:31:28.980 - 01:31:47.520

And Weldon, as a freshman musician, pretty much went on the road. Sarah had told me that they were out here, and I knew they were out here. I went to Irene's funeral and everything. It was more of a friendship-type thing.

01:31:48.500 - 01:32:06.600

So Weldon went on the road for a good long while, and Sarah kept the kids. Every time he'd come back to town, he'd call me up. So we just kind of, you know, one of those things, it was just because we'd known each other for so long.

01:32:06.600 - 01:32:25.900

As a matter of fact, Irene and Sarah's mother and father lived right across the alley from my mother and father. So the kids even played together when they were little, when my kids would be down there. So anyway, that worked out.

01:32:26.040 - 01:32:37.360

So we got married with four teenagers. And that was a miracle, I'll tell you. Did they ever all live with you? They were ten.

01:32:38.600 - 01:32:50.080

Both the girls were twelve. Scott was fifteen when we got married. So Scott was with us for—and then he went to ASU about a year and a half after we got married.

01:32:52.140 - 01:33:10.360

Anyway, we had quite a house full. We don't know how we ever—we look back and we don't know how we ever did it. Were you ever able to play music together again? No, he wanted me to get back on the cello again, but there was just too much to do.

01:33:10.400 - 01:33:25.420

I was working and all the kids were all in all different kind of things. His daughter was in drama and music and she was a singer and Margo was in ballet, Scott was in scouting. It was just too much to do.

01:33:27.020 - 01:33:46.740

It just boggles my mind when I even think about it. Let me ask you about the WASP organization and anything that you have been involved with with that organization. Were you involved with trying to get veteran status, for example?

01:33:46.980 - 01:34:01.520

Steele Yes, I did help with that. I sent Barry Goldwater my—I was one of the few people that got my 201 file. I do not know how I got it, but I got it. And I had all of it, with all my orders and everything.

01:34:01.900 - 01:34:17.560

So I sent him a copy of it, because they were saying we were never on military orders. So I had all of that. And Barry said that—because I had known Barry, my first husband, I helped in his first campaign for senator from Arizona.

01:34:19.640 - 01:34:40.720

And Virginia Hayash, who was an attorney and also a WASP, was working on it, too. And so, anyway, I sent Barry my 201 file, or a copy of it. He said that was a big help. I did not make trips to Washington like a lot of the girls did, but Virginia and I were

01:34:41.440 - 01:34:53.260

trying to help out from Arizona anyway. Kelly: And now at this present time, how do you spend your time? Dunn: I'm still working. Still have my office.

01:34:53.380 - 01:35:09.000

I have my office at home. clear through a firm down in Phoenix. I am not aggressive on taking out any new clients, but I still have clients that I've worked with for years and years, mostly on a management basis.

01:35:11.580 - 01:35:29.040

And then I still—I was very active here on the Jazz on the Rocks board. That's the big jazz festival. We had our 20th festival this year here in Sedona. Where was that jazz festival pulled from?

01:35:29.360 - 01:35:45.300

All over the country. All over the world, actually. We have anywhere from five to seven thousand people here on that weekend. Wellen was active in that, too.

01:35:45.300 - 01:36:01.120

He played in the festival and played for a lot of their parties and everything. When he died, they established a memorial scholarship in his name for private lessons for children from six to fourteen. Kelly: How are those children selected for that?

01:36:01.130 - 01:36:24.520

Dunn: Their teachers recommend them. Then out of that, there are a certain number of them, depending on what the teachers that are auditioned. And out of the auditions, there are usually about fourteen chosen for scholarships.

01:36:24.940 - 01:36:36.360

Kelly: That must make you very proud. Robinson: Oh, yes. And it's so much fun meeting all those little kids and seeing what—now this is the fifth year.

01:36:36.360 - 01:36:59.800

We just finished our scholarship program. And some of them, of course, now are in high school and have done so much with their music that it's just really fun working with them. Kelly: And as far as the WASP are concerned, how have you helped promote or educate people

01:36:59.860 - 01:37:22.100

about the WASP? Well, I've done a lot of speaking. Beverly and I spoke to the ROTC at NAU. I've spoken to the Rotary Club, the Kiwanis Club here, and Yavapai Junior College, and

01:37:22.100 - 01:37:47.460

Sir Optimus Club, and just about every club that's here, I believe. And tell me, why do you think it's important for people to learn about the WASP organization? Well, because so many people, we've always said that that was the best-kept secret of World War II.

01:37:48.080 - 01:38:15.520

And there are still people that do not know that women flew during World War II, that we flew military airplanes. I think it's very important for them to know that. I get emails every day from kids saying, "I'm doing a history project.

01:38:15.860 - 01:38:35.380

I'm doing this, that, and the other. Maybe give me some more information," and so forth. It's just amazing to me. I still run into people that don't know that we had.

01:38:35.480 - 01:38:54.740

Now, I was just yesterday—what's today? Saturday. The day before yesterday, I was over at Prescott. They had a Women's Veterans Recognition Day in the auditorium on the Veterans Hospital

01:38:54.740 - 01:39:10.880

campus they have over there, they have a wonderful veterans' hospital over there. And General Wilma Vaught, as you know, who spearheaded the Women's Memorial in Washington, D.C., was the main speaker. I was the only WASP there.

01:39:13.460 - 01:39:34.200

And whether a lot of them didn't know about it or what, but there were a lot of women veterans there, but I was the only WASP. And she did recognize that, which I was kind of glad of. But of course, since I had my uniform on, she couldn't miss me.

01:39:41.100 - 01:40:16.080

But anyway, it was—and there are still veterans that don't know it. So we're gradually getting there, but I think it's just really important. And I'm so pleased that the women that are flying now—they interviewed one on the Today Show that Ann Curry did not too long ago that's flying over Afghanistan right now off the

01:40:16.420 - 01:40:25.060

carrier, Enterprise. I don't know if it was Enterprise, which one it was. And maybe you helped pave the way. Well, I certainly believe we did.

01:40:26.980 - 01:40:59.660

Tell me now, of all the things you have done, aside from having those two wonderful children, what is the one thing that you are most proud of? Well, I think my WASP years are just really one of the outstanding things in my life. Could you give me your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP program that

01:40:59.660 - 01:41:18.200

she put together? I think Jacqueline Cochran, well, I admire her very much. I think she was an excellent person, and we would have never had the training program without Jacqueline Cochran.

01:41:18.660 - 01:41:48.020

She was the one who was interested in showing that women could fly, and gave all of the women a chance to do this, not just a select few who already had plenty of hours on their own. So I think if it had not been for Jacqueline Cochran, we would have never had the women's Air Force service pilots.

01:41:48.870 - 01:42:28.120

Kelly: Right. And what do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? Dunn: I think the legacy will be to make the women equal in the military, especially in can do the job too, because when I think a lot of people didn't realize, especially the younger generation, even the not so younger generation, didn't realize what a horrible

01:42:28.220 - 01:43:00.120

thing it was at Pearl Harbor and how it affected our whole country and how it pulled everybody together. And I think that on September 11th, it came full circle and you saw it again. And I think that that's one of the things that people are beginning to realize, the whole patriotism thing. Because for a while there, patriotism was almost being made fun

01:42:59.980 - 01:43:28.160

of, and it was almost because everybody had it so easy. So I think that every once in a while we just kind of have to have a wake-up call. Kelly: During your lifetime, you've had good times and I'm sure some bad times, a lot of happy times, but I'm sure there were some sad times.

01:43:28.980 - 01:43:48.380

What has gotten you through the sad times? Buckner: Well, my faith, which started way back. Kelly: If you could say something to children, your grandchildren, great-grandchildren, children with children.

01:43:48.380 - 01:43:54.880

Buckner: I do not have any grandchildren. Kelly: Oh, sorry. What did you have to say? Do not lose your faith.

01:43:54.880 - 01:44:12.880

Well, if you could say something to children that you will never know in future generations that might encourage them or give them hope, what would be your message to them? What would you like to tell them? Well, I would like to say that you have to believe in yourself.

01:44:13.630 - 01:44:33.500

You have to have, the main thing is self-worth and believe that you can do anything that you put your mind to do, if you want to do it badly enough. Good answer. Is there anything that I have left out, or anything that you would like to say that I

01:44:33.580 - 01:44:43.580

have not asked you, or anything at all? I think you've covered it very well. I can't imagine anything that you haven't asked me. No, I don't think—I can't think of anything.

01:44:43.740 - 01:44:56.000

I think you've covered it very well. What of all the airplanes you flew, what's your favorite airplane? Well, I think the B-25. Good answer. Good answer.

01:44:57.020 - 01:45:04.920

I can't thank you enough. I thank you for Wings Across America. I thank you and for children and generations to come. I thank you for doing this.

01:45:04.980 - 01:45:12.820

Well, you're quite welcome. Do you have any questions, Nancy? I'm just looking back. No, favorite airplane was my one.

01:45:13.450 - 01:45:19.600

Do you have an agent? Do you want to still act? Do you want to do some acting? [Laughter]

01:45:19.600 - 01:45:29.720

We've got enough wasps, I think, who've majored in drama or have been in plays that we could put on a show. We could put on a big one, huh? We sure could. Or Nancy will jam with you. Okay.

01:45:29.720 - 01:45:35.740

I play bass. Do you? Great. Thank you so much. I'm gonna turn the--