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>> I had a deflection This is May 21, 2000. Muriel, you can just tell us who you are and where you were born. Okay, well I'm Muriel Keister Martin, Class 44W5.

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And if you want information prior to that, I can go back to when I was born. Is that what you want? Yes. Let's start when you were born.

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Born February 24, 1922. Where? Lefaria. This is my stomping ground from Word One to now.

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And are you the first child in your family? No, I'm the middle child. Okay, you want to tell us about your symptoms? any symptoms of middle child.

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I have a sister, wonderful older sister, and a younger brother, David, and Dee. Dorothy Jane, but we call her Dee. No one knows her by Dorothy Jane. As you were growing up, Muriel, as a child, what were your favorite things to do?

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Wow. Well, we grew up in the middle of an orchard. What kind of orchard? Grapefruit and oranges.

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I mean, we weren't in the middle of the orchard, but that was our immediate surrounding. And I guess I never remember not having a horse. And at one point in time, when I didn't have a horse, the cavalry base in Brownsville had just closed and some of the cavalry horses were on the auction block.

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And Daddy came home very proud one day with the horse that we immediately named Morocco. And he was with us for a long time. Did your brother and sister love horses? They both rode too.

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Laferrie was a very small community, and we made our own recreation. We didn't have big groups of friends to hang out with and whatnot. So we were a pretty close-knit family, and a wonderful family. My grandmother and grandfather lived very close, and we would go back and forth to there.

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I've tried to keep that same feeling of close family relationship with my own children, because I think grandparents are wonderful. And now that I'm a grandparent, I think it's even more wonderful. It's great.

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Kelly: Tell me about going to—starting to school. McClendon: Well, as I said, we were a small community, and so our classes weren't very big. Laferriere, I can point out, is right on the Mexican border.

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As crow flies, we're probably ten miles from the Rio Grande River. Strangely enough, in those days, there weren't very many Mexican families in the area. I remember in my classes at school, we'd have three or four Mexican students along with us.

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Wonderful kids, we loved them all. Now the reverse is in effect. It's predominantly Mexican. We're so close to Mexico.

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Our whole culture is intertwined with Mexican culture. Our big parties are fiesta-type parties and whatnot. This sort of digresses from what school was like, but we've always had it. I think as a consequence of this, we've always loved Mexico, and my oldest daughter, Anne,

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now lives in San Miguel de Allende and loves it. We've spent many summers in Mexico. Do you remember when you were in elementary school, what did you do for lunch? Came home.

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We were only two blocks from school. Oh, I can remember how the cafeteria smelled, and there was no question about wanting to come home for lunch. Kelly: Was there rivalry between you and your brother and sister as far as your grades?

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Beckmann: No, no. We were four years apart. Kelly: Okay. Do you remember any of your teachers in elementary?

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Beckmann: Oh, I surely do. I think I remember all of them. In fact, not too long ago, I found out that my fifth grade teacher is still with us. And I hadn't seen her for so many years that I just assumed that she was not anymore.

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So I was delighted to pick up a wonderful part of that period of my life. What made her wonderful to you? One of the things that made her wonderful to all of us was that Walter Damrosch had a musical program that she was able to tune into in those days.

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And so we had a music appreciation time in the fifth grade that was wonderful. I think I learned more music that year than any time after, which does not speak much for my musical education. But it was a first taste of wonderful classical music.

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It was great. And once you finished elementary school, then did you move to a different school? Right, we had elementary, middle school, and high school. In three separate areas?

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But they were clustered, different buildings, but together. When you started junior high, what were you interested in? Let me ask you, is there a subject that you really preferred over others? Well, I know that I wasn't very interested in math.

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I'll start at the bottom and go up. I guess English, in history, was a great subject. At that time, Muriel, what was expected of girls when they finished high school, do you think?

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What were their choices for careers? Well, we always knew that we were going to go to college after we—I mean, that was just a given thing. But as far as having a—I loved basketball in school.

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I loved tennis. I loved running. So my natural inclination was just to go to physical ed. So that was what I started out with from the beginning.

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And I loved all the accompanying courses involved in that, physiology, etc. Did you have gym classes? In college? Yes.

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In junior high, high school? Mm-hmm. Okay. Did you have a basketball?

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basketball on dirt courts, if you can imagine. But it was wonderful. We had a good time. If the ball bounced crooked, it was like that's the way the cookie crumbled, that's the way

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the ball bounced. So we weren't spoiled. Do you remember the difference? We had good tennis courts.

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The difference in the basketball courts when you were growing up and the basketball courts now? They have a women's gym and a boys' gym and indoor courts and wonderful tennis courts. Our schools have really progressed quite well.

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When you were in high school and you were playing basketball, did your team compete with other schools? Right, and we won. We were good.

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What did that feel like? It was great. It was great. While you were in high school, what were your vacations like?

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Well, we went, Mother believed in getting us into a different climate because it is pretty humid and we're just about sea level here. So we went to the hill country and the rivers then were so beautiful, oh, they're still beautiful, but the Texas rivers are great.

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And it wasn't until we grew up that we started vacationing in Mexico to get into higher altitudes. And San Miguel de Allende is almost 6,000 feet. I remember going to Colorado a couple times. When you would go to-

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You remember, I grew up in the Depression days. Our vacation times weren't like they are nowadays, but we always had a good time. Kelly: When you would go up to the Hill Country, would you meet friends who were your friends in Lefaria?

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Or would you make new friends? a family and we sometimes rented places to stay, but quite often I remember just camping out and it was wonderful. Clear water, clear cold water.

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We'd come in with a little string of fish and say we needed a frying pan and Mother would give us the prime minute and we'd build our own little fire and go down on the river and cook our fish. And she'd come down to see how things were going.

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We were all through. The fish were clean, fried, and eaten. Were your grandparents, did they ever accompany you on these trips? No.

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Tell me what a Christmas was like at your house. It was great. It was great. A lot of warmth, a lot of love, and very simple as compared to Christmases now, but always

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a beautiful tree. I had lots of cousins, but I did have cousins that lived in the area, so it was always a family get-together. Do you remember your first fall?

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No, I remember my first tennis racket, but dolls never had a great appeal for me. What did you do with that tennis racket? I still play. Different racket.

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I decided that the reason people are such good tennis players now is because two things, the tennis shoes and the rackets. They're a lot different than they were when I was learning to play tennis, but basically it's all the same still.

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It's a great game. >>While you were in high school, did you have special male friends? >>Quite a few. >>Could you tell me about your mom?

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We were a unique group as far as growing up was concerned, because a lot of my friends went on. One became a professor, a full professor at Lubbock. president of a small college in Missouri.

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It seemed to me that we all accomplished goals way beyond what were our expectations as kids, But we just lucked into good things, I guess. Tell me about the discipline in school. I don't remember any disciplinary problems.

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And why do you think we didn't have disciplinary problems when we were in school? Well, I think we all just came from good families. We weren't spoiled. We made our own good times, and we didn't rely

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on going to picture shows and things. I mean, this sounds like it's way in the dark ages, but down here it kind of really—I were—I do not know how to put it. I do know that when I went away to college that I was pretty much shy of everything that

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was going on, was not prepared really for—why am I saying all this? This is not pertinent to being a WASP, I do not think. It's very pertinent. It tells us who you were.

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Because we were who we were. We weren't trying to copy an image we had of anything going on. And I think my own children are the same way. They felt like they didn't have to live up to anyone's expectations except their own.

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And they've all been very successful, proud of that. Of course, their dad has a lot to do with it. Do you remember your prom in high school? Could you tell me about your prom?

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Did you get a new dress? Oh, yeah, all of those kind of things. But it didn't figure—it wasn't a major thing. Let me—

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But we had our own fun. I guess it would be comparable to what kids do now. I don't know how to say it was different. I guess the main thing was during the middle of the Depression years, and we just didn't

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weren't affluent enough to do things on a high level of, what? On a high level. I don't know how else. I hope some of this is going to be deleted.

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You're going to edit it, aren't you, Nancy? Tell me, at home, in your home, who was the disciplinarian? I don't think there was any question about who had to be a disciplinarian. I don't remember any things that were considered discipline problems.

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I'm not saying that I was goody-goody two-shoes, but things just sort of ran, kind of like water running off a duck's back. We never did anything that was really wrong, so why make a big deal of it? Do you remember any of the rules that your mom and dad had for you teenage children?

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Did you have curfews? What kind of rules did they have? I don't know that a curfew was necessary. And we'd ride our bikes at night, and we'd ride around and have good times.

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But there weren't such things as gangs or anything that we had to be careful about. Coming home to keep out of the way of any trouble that would occur. It was a small community, maybe three thousand people. Kelly: Could you tell me who was your role model in school?

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Did you have a favorite teacher of all your teachers that influenced you? Every teacher I ever had was my favorite. I did love all my teachers. Tell me about graduation.

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Well, I was disappointed that I missed being salutatorian, but my grades weren't that good. And I knew I wasn't going to be valedictorian, but I just missed the second guess. But it didn't upset me very much.

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What was your favorite thing to study in high school? I guess history. Oh, hey, is that? Yeah, we'll pause.

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Okay, you want to go back, and we'll go back to your senior prom. Well, it's hard to have a prom without dancing. Dancing was sort of frowned upon as a social affair, so we didn't have dancing. So I don't remember a whole lot about the prom.

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Kelly: Did you have class picnics in high school? Oh, I don't remember. We were all together so much, the time anyway, we didn't need to plan special events to be more together.

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Let me ask you, when you were playing basketball, did you have enough people to rotate, or did you just have enough for one team? We had enough to rotate, and it was pretty competitive about whether we stayed in or not.

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If you wanted to get out there and cook in that sun and have the dust in your face, that was your own fault. How about football? Was football big in your high school?

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Yeah, pretty big. Do you remember a lot of football games? Oh, sure, and we had a drum and bugle corps, and I played the bugle in a drum and bugle corps.

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I mean, I played at playing the bugle. But it was pretty cute. Where did you take lessons? Lessons?

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For the bugle. I think we just got out where nobody could hear us too well and tried going. How many years did you do that? Just a couple.

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High school, you know. Did you have uniforms? Yeah. What were your uniforms like?

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Actually, we did. We were, our colors were maroon and gold, and that's all I remember. I think they were some kind of cute little skirts. When you went out of town for games, did the Drum and Bugle Corps go?

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I think so. We had a pretty good band, not when I was in school, but when my children were coming along, we had an excellent band director. They got pretty good.

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Let's see, two of the girls played flutes, Bunny played the trombone. She passed the trombone on down to Graham, our son, but he wasn't too crazy about it. So one day the band director said, "Well, Graham, would you rather just go out and play baseball?"

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And he said, "Yes, sir." And he handed the band director the trombone and went on out and played baseball. That was one way to handle it, a touchy situation. Kelly: When you graduated from high school, what was that summer like before you went

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to college? Langsdorf: Oh, I was a camp counselor. Kelly: Want to tell me about that? Langsdorf: Sure.

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That was wonderful. It was a girl reserve camp, and actually it was a very good camp. Small, not like Mystic and Waldemar and the big camps that my kids went to in the hill country.

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But we had wonderful horseback riding, and I helped with that. We had real good archery teachers, and archery is a real art. It's fun, lots of fun. And of course, had real good swimming, and I think I helped with everything.

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I was a junior counselor, and eager and willing, and when I think back on it now, I think I was too willing because—but I loved every bit of it. which sort of fit in with what I wanted to do anyway. Where was this camp?

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It was local. It was within the area. In fact, it was in Rwanda, Nancy. And I don't know whether the WASP you're going to see tomorrow has lived there long

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enough to remember it because it's totally gone. I mean, there's no sign of it anymore. But it was a YWCA camp. It was a good camp.

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Had a lot of good horses. We had good meals because the farmers brought in fresh produce. We had some good cooks. It was all volunteer help.

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Did you teach horseback riding at the camp? Yes. Well, I helped. We had a—but this is when I say that because I was so willing and eager, I think I did

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all the, I tacked all the horses. Yeah I helped a lot with horseback riding. In fact, but I learned a lot too from the instructor that had come. What kind of horseback riding did you enjoy the most?

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English. Just walk, trot, and canter, you know, just the basic English riding. As you were growing up riding horses, did you ever enter any kind of competition? No, but my children have.

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I guess I vicariously enjoyed what the children were able to do that I wasn't able to do. I don't think we had any competitive horse shows when I was growing up, because when When my kids came along, I took them to, for basic jumping and riding lessons, to the Mexican Cavalry based in Reynosa, which turned out to be a wonderful, wonderful experience.

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And I had a terrific horse that the captain who was helping my children ride wanted to by and she was so good that I didn't think I'd ever really develop her potential. So I sold her to him. He was consequently transferred to a base southeast of Mexico City and he said, I said,

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"Oh, Hector, we're going to miss you so much." And he said, "Well, you just come down there." So that's what we did. all my children and several of the neighbor children who were also taking riding lessons

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from him. We spent a whole summer in Coatla, which is a beautiful part of Mexico. You can see both Ixtalcihuatl and Popocatapetl, the volcanoes, snow-capped, beautiful riding area.

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So that was a good experience. Ginny. Okay, Nancy, I'll tell you about Ginny. She was the star. Well, actually, Graham was too, but he was a little bit younger, and so it didn't excel quite to the extent that she did. But at the end of the summer when we were there, they had a huge horse show.

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All of the cavalry officers rode in it, and it seemed like there were even more than that. Anyway, it was a big show. Ginny jumped the same course, same everything about it, and had a clean ride. And she's the one that ended up with a garland of roses on her horse.

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And then Graham, bless his heart, had a clean ride except for the fact that before each jump his horse would go, "Grrr," just put on the brakes. So Graham would have to turn it around and wham, and then the horse would jump. But there had been a little bit of a sprinkle, and everything was just beginning to get a

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little bit—and that horse would go, "Err." So because he had had a good ride too, they put a garland of roses on his horse. And I don't know whether he was pleased or a little bit mollified, but anyway, it was cute.

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It was a great experience. And are you familiar with the piece of music they play in the bullfights when the bull has been vanquished? You know that da-da-da-da?

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It's wonderfully moving because it's all the brass section just given forth. They played that when Ginny got her roses, and man, the tears were just rolling down my cheeks. It was a pretty exciting time.

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How old were your children then? Ginny was sixteen. No, I think she was fifteen, she was pretty young, because she didn't have any trouble with all those Mexican officers wanting to flirt with her or anything.

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She didn't pay any attention to them, which made life easier. It could have been a little bit touchy. But it was the countryside that was so beautiful, and great horses. That was exciting.

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She had gotten her start in real good riding, well, with the cavalry. In San Miguel de Allende, they had a good riding school, and that was what lured us there to begin with. Then we just fell in love with everything about it.

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Are you familiar with San Miguel? Let me take you back now. You've graduated from high school and you spent the summer, and tell me about your first entry into university.

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How did your folks feel about your leaving home? Oh, well, they were happy enough about it. I mean they were pleased for me to be going, but I went on a shoestring, which didn't make any difference anyway because I wasn't very socially inclined.

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I knew that it was ridiculous to even think about pledging a sorority because we couldn't have afforded that. had a wonderful time, competed to belong to the canter club, and so at least I got into a good riding club.

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And that was how I met Mickey. Okay, go back then. It was through the canter club that I met Mickey because she was a sorority sister of one of the girls that was riding in the riding club.

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So that was plenty for me, I didn't need anything greater than that. Then I made good grades. And where were you? I was living in a, just a rooming.

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School. Uh-huh. Oh, a freshman. Oh, where?

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At the university. Of what? Texas. Okay.

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That's right, University of Texas. So your freshman year you joined the counter club? Well that doesn't sound like a very exciting bit of social life for a freshman at the University of Texas, but it was great for me.

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Where did you live? I lived in a rooming house, a boarding house. Was it near the campus? So that you could walk?

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Oh, I could walk. Did you have a car with you? Oh, heavens no. It would have been easy to have had a car because the traffic then was not anything

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like it is now. Why did you select the University of Texas? I guess because my sister had gone there. And what did you plan to study?

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Or did you have an idea? Vicky Reddick Yeah, I was going to do physical ed. I mean, I had pretty much decided that by then.

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Cynthia Reddick In your freshman year at college, who was the biggest influence on you? Vicky Reddick Maybe an English teacher.

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He just seemed sympathetic to small-town girls, sort of suddenly being thrust into a bigger school and lots of people and everything. Or maybe it was because I just have always sort of enjoyed English, I mean literature and everything.

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And we had ready writing, I mean, what do you call it? Literature, writing short stories and stuff. And I loved that. Hey, Kalua, you don't belong in here.

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I get a shot of her. We're at the end of the tape here. Kalua, come here. She's got her ball.

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Boy, she's got a really heavy tail. Do you want me to throw it? Did she whack you with it? No, it's fine.

00:33:50.020 - 00:34:16.580

doesn't hurt but it's just solid. What do you want me to do with this ball? You're not filming are you? Oh yeah. Oh. Getting Kalua. She's in her close-up now. You can't do it like that. Good girl. Good girl. Too high? No, no, I'm going to change tape.

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Okay. I'm rolling. Tell me where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor. Okay, I was a sophomore at Sul Ross College, which is in Alpine, Texas, which is close

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to the Big Bend area, and there are a lot of big ranches in that area. When we heard it, I think some of them realized immediately what a tremendously dramatic situation it was. I think some of us thought, "How could it be?"

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It was too big to comprehend at first, and then of course it began to sink in slowly. We weren't used to big things like that happening, and it didn't take long for a lot of us to start thinking, "Well, what can we do? How can we do it?"

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I know that the boys immediately wanted to enlist or get into the war effort in some way. And it wasn't until I went back to the university the next year that I really settled on to become a pilot, or you know, the WASP program, because I hadn't even heard of that.

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And yes, it was-- OK, this was in '43. This was in '42. Is that when Pearl Harbor was? Must have been.

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'41? Pearl Harbor was December 7, '41. OK. All right, and then it was the next year that I went back to the university and through

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friends, one of whom was Vicki Carmichael, I found out about the WASP program. She said, "This is exactly what you want to do." And I said, "Yes, because I really don't think I want to be Rosie the Riveter or anything like that.

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That sounds not very exciting. I would have done anything. The longer we waited to get into something, the more patriotic or the more pushing was our patriotic urge to do something.

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So started ground school with her and had already the previous summer started my pilot training working toward the thirty-five hours. And it was my grandfather that said, "Yes, go ahead with your flying lessons." He said, "I'll help you with them."

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So that was great. I mean, he was a great guy. So I started when I was at home that summer at a little airfield, which has since been covered up by Progress, called Malden Field in San Benito, between San Benito and Brownsville.

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And I got my—I soloed there. And then when I went back to university, I started taking lessons at—I think it was Browning Airfield. And I'm not even sure it's still there because Austin has grown, swallowed it up probably

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long since. Just like the place I used to ride, which was called Hobby Horse Stables, it was swallowed up by developments of some sort. Anyway, in spite of the fact that I wasn't very good in math, I somehow or other got

00:38:25.580 - 00:38:45.580

through ground school, which gave me a fit when I was in the WASP program too, the ground school, because I'm not a mathematician by any sense of the word. Now where am I? Were there other girls who were learning to fly?

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Yes, in ground school, but not at the same airfield. I rode my bike out to that. I even wrote it one time after I had a terrible collision in field hockey, and it sort of displaced my sacroiliac.

00:39:05.420 - 00:39:23.160

But I couldn't get out of bed, but somehow or other I could ride a bicycle. So anyway, I say that just to emphasize that it was really important to me to get those hours in, and that was the only way to get there. Where were you taking ground school?

00:39:23.960 - 00:39:35.040

At the university. It was just a ground school course. But when you were out at the airport learning to fly, were you the only girl? I don't remember anybody else being there.

00:39:35.960 - 00:39:55.160

I was always kind of a loner, it seemed like, and things like that. I'm sure there were others flying around somewhere. Why was it important to you to run the floor? I know you said you wanted to help.

00:39:56.600 - 00:40:18.820

Well the primary push behind it was that it looked like a tremendously exciting program to be in. If I wanted to do something that would really help the war effort. And there was probably some selfish instincts in that too that would be something I'd enjoy

00:40:18.880 - 00:40:42.820

doing as long as I was, as they were saying, releasing or taking place of the domestic manpower to give them a chance to go into combat duty. I thought, "That's all right with me. I'll do their homework, their at-home jobs.

00:40:43.920 - 00:40:59.260

When you were learning to fly like that, do you remember what the news was like about our fighting forces? What the what? What the news was from our combat troops.

00:40:59.460 - 00:41:19.740

Oh, how they were doing? I wasn't terribly aware of it. I just felt like they'd do good, do well. I never did have the feeling that being in the program was a glamorous thing to do, which

00:41:19.780 - 00:41:48.960

I've heard some people refer to it as sort of a glamour program. There were some things about it that weren't very glamorous at all, and it was tough. It was identical to the cadet program. So it had us on our toes the whole time because, okay, we had been accepted and now we had

00:41:49.040 - 00:42:20.300

to prove that we would be worthy of what they expected of us. Once you had the required number of hours, then what did you do to become accepted into the program? Vicky: Well, I had an interview, thank you for the word, with Jacqueline Cochran in Dallas.

00:42:20.960 - 00:42:39.200

Oh, it was terrific. There was no way to get from Lafayette to Dallas except by train. This was before Southwest was our friendly sky. So I went on the train.

00:42:40.280 - 00:42:56.380

I think first I went to Austin because I had some family living in Austin, an aunt lived there. And I think she took me shopping, and I got a white linen suit that I loved. It was the prettiest suit I ever had.

00:42:57.540 - 00:43:14.060

And I'm sure I impressed Jackie Cochran because she thought, "Well, she's going to be one of our kind of girls." But anyway, I felt pretty shy at that interview. But I guess it went okay.

00:43:15.740 - 00:43:30.300

Do you remember how she treated you? She was lovely. was just as sweet as she could be. She probably thought, "Here's a very malleable soul that hasn't been influenced by a lot

00:43:30.300 - 00:43:45.660

of outside things," because I was pretty innocent. That's a silly thing to say. Maybe innocent isn't the correct word. Unsophisticated might be a better word.

00:43:46.240 - 00:43:59.080

What did she tell you then that it would require before you were actually-- I don't think she said anything. I think she just said, "Wait and see." Did you have to take a physical?

00:44:03.900 - 00:44:22.700

We had to take a physical to get our pilot's license, and I don't remember any other physical besides that, until we got to the field, until we got to the venture field. Then we had one, I didn't remember, see I don't remember a lot of things. >> Okay.

00:44:23.710 - 00:44:44.320

Do you remember when you got notification to report? Was that the first time you heard after the interview was when you got a letter to report? >> Yes, I think so. Because it came as a big surprise, and I think that came December the 7th, or I was to report

00:44:44.380 - 00:44:54.240

December the 7th. It had something to do with December the 7th. Kelly: How did you get from Le Verre to Sweetwater? Had you ever heard of Sweetwater?

00:44:54.280 - 00:45:06.180

Beckmann: By bus. Kelly: Did you know this? Beckmann: No, I had never heard—well, more or less. I mean, I knew where Abilene was, but I didn't know it was as far away as it seemed on that

00:45:06.080 - 00:45:12.740

bus ride. That was a far piece. Kelly: What did your mother think? How did she feel?

00:45:14.060 - 00:45:31.080

McCarthy: I think they were as naive about it as I was. Daddy wasn't sure that I ought to be flying in those big airplanes, but they just sort of accepted it. That was something that was in the books to do.

00:45:33.320 - 00:45:53.260

We did it. My brother was a Navy pilot. In fact, we flew together in a little Piper Cub when we were both civilians again, and it was from a little field out of Harlingen or Samanito or someplace.

00:45:54.980 - 00:46:10.920

Hotter than Hades that day, and still no wind. We couldn't get the plane to come down on the ground. Have you ever been up in a pirate cove and the heat waves coming up were stronger than our trying to push it down?

00:46:11.700 - 00:46:24.600

I think also we were probably going downwind. There wasn't any wind, but what there was, we had to go around the field. Here he was, a Navy pilot, and I was a WASP, and we couldn't get our little airplane down on the ground.

00:46:25.800 - 00:46:50.360

At the time you left going to the WASP, where was he? Had he already gone in? David was a freshman at the university, and he was in the Naval ROTC, and then went into the - he was enough younger than I was that he wasn't able to complete the full course

00:46:52.000 - 00:47:03.980

because the war was over. Do you think your being in the WASP had any influence on him? I doubt it. I think he was envious, but he knew what he wanted to do.

00:47:07.580 - 00:47:24.140

David was a lot more outgoing than I was, still is. When you got to Avenger, on the bus, were you by yourself? Did you meet other girls? I met other girls, I think, picked up in probably Abilene or I don't know where.

00:47:25.100 - 00:47:37.380

Had you left real close girlfriends back in Laferria or at university? Not real, real close. Okay. So when you left Sweetwater, what did you do?

00:47:41.760 - 00:47:57.260

Well, the first thing we had was that dumb physical. I mean, it wasn't dumb, it was just routine. And you know what? I don't have any sharp, clear memories.

00:47:57.480 - 00:48:21.540

There were just a lot of girls, and we were assigned to our bay, and I thought I had the best bay mates in the whole group, and they turned out to be just really great bay mates. Tell me about your bay mates. When I was Patricia Kenworthy, and you probably already, is that somebody coming in?

00:48:22.220 - 00:48:41.040

Oh, Kaluwa? That's all right, let her come on around, she'll be a good girl. Patricia Kenworthy, from the very word go, was one of my good friends and has been ever since.

00:48:43.600 - 00:49:06.300

The word "gung-ho" must have come from people like her. She was so great. And from Philadelphia. She knew the great big outside world that I had very little knowledge of.

00:49:08.940 - 00:49:20.440

And she loved horses and we both loved flying and we both loved to run, so we could just get out and run and run and run. It was a good way to let off a lot of anxiety. Who were your other babies?

00:49:23.540 - 00:49:44.580

A girl named Virginia Knapp. She was older than we were and her reason for being a WASP was so that she could become efficient in navigation to sail around the world. From Racine, Wisconsin.

00:49:44.970 - 00:49:59.160

Now I don't know how they got into the big ocean from there, but anyway, she was a real sweet person. And enough older than we were that we felt like she was awful smart. Let me think.

00:50:01.640 - 00:50:13.720

There were four of us. Right offhand, I can't remember the names of the others. That's terrible, isn't it? Kelly: No.

00:50:14.600 - 00:50:23.020

Tell me about the mess hall. What do you remember about the mess hall? Klemski: It was okay. Can I let it go at that?

00:50:24.220 - 00:50:43.220

It was kind of nice. I tell you, though, sometimes when you went in there, you weren't sure whether you were very hungry or not because of either just getting ready to fly or, "Kalua, I'm trying to do an interview."

00:50:46.840 - 00:51:04.360

There. She's my best friend, but, "Kalua, don't you want me to stop this?" I mean, I don't want her to distract the whole thing. I'm trying to think of those other bay mates.

00:51:05.220 - 00:51:18.160

Okay, our names started with K. Knapp, Kenworthy, Keister. There was a real cute--I'm not being-- No, you're not on.

00:51:20.160 - 00:51:34.920

But that's okay. But this little girl we called Butch, and I don't think I want to refer to her as Butch. She was a pretty tough little kid, but I bet she made a great pilot. Oh, oh, oh, wait a minute.

00:51:43.640 - 00:52:04.500

Genevieve started with a K. Well, anyway, we can put this on if you want to. And another bay mate was Genevieve. It had to be J-K-L, maybe it was Landham.

00:52:06.020 - 00:52:37.400

It was a real sweet girl, I'm sorry I can't remember her last name. It's probably different now anyway. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make? To accept the routine and, oh, yeah, living with other girls in one bathroom.

00:52:37.500 - 00:53:09.200

It was a little bit touchy sometimes. And then we had inspection, what was it called? Anyway, it was a white glove inspection, and I wasn't used to folding my clothes so neatly and putting them in little tidy compartments.

00:53:11.120 - 00:53:40.960

But I learned how pretty fast. Learned how to bounce a quarter off the bed when you make your bed. The camaraderie was always good and fun, and I enjoyed that because we were all from different parts of the country, different backgrounds, and it was fun to meet people from other areas

00:53:41.060 - 00:53:54.720

and other backgrounds. Did you get homesick? Not really. No, I think after two or three years of school, I don't think you'd get homesick.

00:53:57.060 - 00:54:15.240

What was your first instructor like and your first solo? You know, I was going to review that in my world book, I mean, class book. I can't remember his name, but he was real, real nice. I liked all my instructors.

00:54:15.520 - 00:54:50.620

I can't remember their names, and I wish that I had reviewed it before I'm talking to you like this now, because I can remember their faces, and they were so nice, and if they ever look up this interview, I would like to hear their name mentioned in admiration and appreciation for their tolerance and patience in helping us through this thing.

00:54:51.780 - 00:55:14.360

But I don't ever remember being intimidated by one until I got to the AT-6, because with the PT-17, the Stearman, the Yellow Peril, whatever you want to call it, was such a friendly little airplane. I loved it to death, and of course, I think all of us broke a few rules by playing in

00:55:14.380 - 00:55:23.980

the clouds. And the Stearman was great for that. really was. I mean, you felt like you had everything under control.

00:55:24.460 - 00:55:50.000

Well when we got the AT-6s, my instructor said, "Ms. Keister, get off the tail of this goddamned airplane and fly it!" I had been treating it with a great deal of tentative wonder. It was a lot more airplane than a PT-17.

00:55:51.220 - 00:56:10.900

Anyway, I said, "Okay, I can do that," and we got along fine after that. I did. You know, sometimes you just have to wake up to the fact that you've got to treat it with respect, but still, you're the pilot, not the passenger.

00:56:13.980 - 00:56:27.960

Tell me about your solo. Do you know, I don't even remember it, but in the PT? In the PT. Do you remember what it felt like when you arrived at Avenger and saw all those airplanes?

00:56:29.880 - 00:56:46.240

It looked pretty neat. It was exciting, it was really exciting. It was a big flight line compared to anything we'd had before. I think it was kind of easy.

00:56:47.760 - 00:57:13.220

I'm not saying that out of whatever, but I felt so at ease with that airplane. I think it was a whole lot easier to fly than what I'd taken lessons on. Have you ever been in a WACO? Well if you think, you're kind of short like I am, in the Waco, you're really down in a

00:57:13.260 - 00:57:34.980

dungeon and you wonder, you know that there's a horizon out there someplace and you know that there's ground under you but you can't see it, you're just sunken in this thing. Of course they gave us cushions to use but it was still an uncomfortable airplane. It was one of those real old ones, might have been a World War I vintage, I don't know.

00:57:35.080 - 00:57:51.920

But anyway, the PT-17 was so neat. I don't know of anyone that doesn't just love the Stearman. Kelly: What would you take out to the airplane with you? Beck: An extra cushion.

00:57:53.820 - 00:58:07.020

You're loaded going out. Parachute. Well, at first, did you take manuals and stuff with you? I don't remember that until we started cross-countries, and then you had all of that to take care

00:58:07.020 - 00:58:21.120

of. Levy: Did anyone that you knew wash out? Krikorian: Oh, yes, several in our class washed out, but I can't remember their names. Levy: So no one personal?

00:58:21.120 - 00:58:47.600

Krikorian: We tried not to let it penetrate. >>While you were there, were any WASPs killed? >>I don't think so. I don't think so, because I don't remember. I know there have been several that -- I'm remembering now the name of a girl. I better say it now, because I'll forget

00:58:47.600 - 00:59:14.720

it again later on. When I got out and was at Eagle Pass, I met Kay Dusak, and she was killed while she was—I just barely knew her, but she was a wonderful person, and she just hit some highlines in Cincinnati, and that was it.

00:59:20.960 - 00:59:28.860

Did you ever have a pillow fight? A pillow fight? Oh, probably. I don't remember.

00:59:29.260 - 00:59:45.000

I remember the biggest fight I had was to gain access to the cop that was closest to the window. Man, I guess I've got a little claustrophobia, and with all those girls in there, I didn't know very well.

00:59:45.480 - 00:59:52.360

had to have that window cut, and I got it. So what are you laughing about? How did you do that? I wonder how you did that.

00:59:54.500 - 01:00:06.360

Maybe it was alphabetical order that came out right, I don't know. Anyway, it was great. Tell me about ground school. I'd rather not.

01:00:10.100 - 01:00:20.620

What was the most difficult course that you had to take? that had to do with math. How did you get through? I don't know.

01:00:22.920 - 01:00:39.300

Some guardian angel took care of me in ground school, and I don't know what took care of me in the air, but I know it was a guardian angel on the ground, I mean in ground school. Did you ever get any demerits? I don't think so.

01:00:41.240 - 01:00:56.240

I think if I had, I'd remember. I don't remember getting any of the merits. I know we were conscious of the possibility of getting them. Kelly: While you were there, when the first class graduated after you got there, and subsequent

01:00:56.380 - 01:01:07.900

classes, what would happen? How would that be celebrated? Beck: Well, they talk about the wishing well. I don't remember the wishing well.

01:01:10.160 - 01:01:28.120

Do you remember any passing reviews at graduations? Yes, but we didn't have the big dignitaries that some of the classes had. Well, I shouldn't say that because we might have had the highest ranking general. There is, and I don't remember.

01:01:29.740 - 01:01:41.680

No, I don't think we did. I know that Jacqueline Cochran wasn't there, and I was disappointed in that. Was she ever there at a graduation while you were there? >> I think while we were there, no.

01:01:43.920 - 01:01:58.340

I never saw her again after my interview with her. >> While you were there, did you know what other girls who had already graduated, what they were doing? Were you kept aware of that?

01:01:59.340 - 01:02:21.800

>> Not too much. I know that I was hoping, like everything, to get someplace way, way away from Texas. I just wanted to get out and see the rest of the United States. Are you going to ask me where I was sent?

01:02:22.560 - 01:02:38.340

Yes, after I ask you about it. About two hundred miles up the river from where I grew up. I was going to ask you about your uniform, when you first were fitted for a uniform, how that made you feel when you got your uniform.

01:02:38.340 - 01:03:03.640

Yeah, it was great. Although I didn't mind the suit suits, except they were pretty big. Vanity was certainly no problem in our training. Between after you finished primary, did you have some time off, and what did you do?

01:03:06.700 - 01:03:36.720

I did have time off, but I don't remember if it was after primary or what phase. One of my classmates and I went to Austin where my aunt, I had a couple of aunts who lived there, and her son, my cousin, was at Honda Navigation School. And I went over for his graduation from Honda.

01:03:38.800 - 01:04:32.280

Was there ever a time when you were in training when you were really frightened? Well, there was a time I should have been frightened because it was on an 86th Instrument cross-country from Sweetwater, eventually to El Paso. As we left El Paso, we flew around a mountain—to me it was a mountain, or I flew around it

01:04:32.440 - 01:04:50.680

because I haven't seen very many mountains, and this one looked pretty interesting. In doing so, I missed the announcement that the Gila Bend radio was out and for us to pick up on the next one. So I kept looking for Gila Bend, Gila Bend, where are you?

01:04:51.100 - 01:05:04.780

And I did all my little orientation squares and whatnot. I never could pick it up on the radio. Consequently, I just kept getting a little bit more off course and a little bit more off course.

01:05:06.380 - 01:05:22.560

And if that mountain in El Paso looked big, some of the ones I was flying over by then were really big. And some dam, and I couldn't even find it on my map. So I thought, "Where in the world could I be so fast, so soon?"

01:05:22.960 - 01:05:44.580

And I saw a little green valley, and I thought, "After all this brown starkness of the mountains they were flying over, this little green valley had to lead somewhere." And by this time, I think I was really getting kind of low on gas, and so I started following that green valley.

01:05:45.740 - 01:05:59.400

I didn't have a railroad track to follow or anything else. And it led to Phoenix. And I landed at Thunderbird Field in Phoenix. And they said, "I'm sorry you cannot land here."

01:05:59.400 - 01:06:13.000

And I said, "Well, I'm sorry, but I've got to land here. I've been on emergency gas." But the question that brought all this up was, "Was I ever frightened?" Even that didn't scare me.

01:06:13.420 - 01:06:29.020

I just somehow or other knew that it was going to turn out okay. Sure enough, I let down. They were gallant enough to finally realize that it had been an emergency landing, and they gassed my plane.

01:06:29.680 - 01:06:54.340

I took off for Tucson as fast as that little airplane would go. Don't you call it fire-walleted or something like that. But then on, we spent the night in Tucson, then we went on over to Blythe and came straight back to Sweetwater.

01:06:55.970 - 01:07:16.380

I never missed a dit or a dah all the way back on that. Tell me about instrument training. Well, from the tale I've just related, I probably wasn't too good in instruments, but I got home okay.

01:07:17.560 - 01:07:32.880

It was okay. All the dits and the dots sounded just a little bit the same, but somehow or other there must have been enough differentiation that I got through okay. Why you were at Sweetwater in training, were you ever ill?

01:07:33.860 - 01:07:41.480

No. Is she still talking to the dog? No, she's going to. I asked her if she wanted to talk to us.

01:07:42.040 - 01:07:48.540

We're about to roll out. Did you ever not get to fly because it was that time of the month? No. No.

01:07:48.960 - 01:08:10.940

Good. Yes, and it was great. There was a hotel in town that we went to after the graduation, and my dad had come up, which was very, very sweet and generous of him to do because it was a terrible bus

01:08:10.980 - 01:08:28.740

ride from home. And so he was able to meet a lot of my friends, and I was real proud to introduce him. I was sorry that Mother hadn't been able to come, too. Anyway, we celebrated that night pretty good, and I found out I could ski real well because

01:08:28.740 - 01:08:53.140

Because I had on slick-bottomed shoes, and I could go right down those stairs without – just slide right down the stairs. That's just a sideline. Now the best thing was, though, that all the camaraderie sort of seems to get more poignant,

01:08:53.880 - 01:09:10.940

you know you're going to be missing people and everything. And we'd had our orders by that time, hadn't we? And I guess by then I'd gotten over the fact that I was going right back down on the Rio Grande River.

01:09:11.760 - 01:09:35.520

But it was a great air base. It was a fixed gunnery school. And Colonel Bundy, we nicknamed it Colonel Bundy's Dude Ranch. He had gotten a lot of horses from one of the deactivated cavalry bases, and so we had

01:09:36.360 - 01:09:51.980

horses to ride. And one of my good friends there was from Brooklyn, and she didn't know how to drive. Her sister had taken flying—I mean, she took flying lessons when it was time to take driving lessons.

01:09:52.100 - 01:10:05.520

So I said, "It's okay, Maggie, I'll teach you." I had my car there at that time. I said, "I'll ride along beside you, and I'll just tell you what to do, and you just drive."

01:10:05.520 - 01:10:20.260

So when we'd want to turn to the left, she'd put the clutch in, and when she'd want to turn to the right, she'd put the brake on. She was still flying an airplane. We laughed so hard that—it's a wonder we didn't have a wreck, but we did.

01:10:20.640 - 01:10:30.580

It was great fun. It turned out to be a nice space. But not very many of my classmates were sent there at the same time, so I met a whole new group of people.

01:10:31.980 - 01:10:36.020

Do you want to see this picture? I mean— Kelly: You should get it after. Milton: Okay.

01:10:38.400 - 01:10:52.180

A great group of people, and that was pretty exacting flying. It could get boring, but it wasn't really, because— Tell me what you would do. What were you flying?

01:10:53.000 - 01:11:13.800

Flying an AT-6 in fixed gunnery. So we had this target sleeve, and we had a tow operator in the back of the plane. And we'd go out early to the auxiliary field. I couldn't even think of the name of the field.

01:11:15.000 - 01:11:34.700

And that was where we'd fly our missions or whatever you call it. And it was pretty hot. This was summertime in West Texas on the river. And it was so hot that you didn't want to touch the airplane while you were getting

01:11:34.740 - 01:11:49.080

in it. Then when you got up to about 3,000 feet was—I think that was the altitude that we flew our targets. When I realized that those guys shooting at us with fixed gundry, which meant they were

01:11:49.620 - 01:12:07.980

aiming the airplane at us, not a gun, but the whole airplane, because the gun was in the wing, they'd had the same amount of training we had had, and probably this was their first base since they had graduated. And I thought, "Well, if they're as good as I think I am, we don't have anything to

01:12:08.020 - 01:12:13.240

worry about." So, what I think-- Were they flying airplanes? Yes.

01:12:14.460 - 01:12:23.780

Now, don't ask me what kind they were flying. It wasn't an AT-6. It was-- Is Archie still in the house?

01:12:25.340 - 01:12:32.800

Cut off the sound a minute. Okay. Would they-- They were regular fighter planes.

01:12:33.360 - 01:12:44.220

Okay. And what would happen? Would you fly up to the-- up to—we'd fly—all right, when our target was on, I mean, it was reeled out.

01:12:44.810 - 01:13:03.280

I mean, you don't hitch them on from the ground. And then you fly designated altitude, designated speed. And that got a little bit boring, but it wasn't so too bad. And then shoot at the target, and hopefully they were hitting the target.

01:13:05.800 - 01:13:18.460

One of the girls came down, and the guys were teasing her because they said, "Look how close you came to getting hit. There's a hole in your propeller." She said, "Oh, my gosh."

01:13:18.460 - 01:13:32.800

Well, I think she knew in her own smart little mind that that was a balance hole in the propeller. But anyway, they kind of got a charge out of teasing us. Okay. Do you know in these airplanes—

01:13:32.800 - 01:13:55.440

They were all nice boys. these airplanes, was there just the pilot, or were there two people in it, and one was flying and one was shooting? Or was the same person doing both things? No, the same person was doing the shooting, because he had to guide the airplane to the

01:13:55.520 - 01:14:17.800

target. I mean, you know, because they called it fixed gunnery because the guns were in the wings of the airplane. And so if your airplane had to be aimed toward the target, I mean his airplane had to be aimed toward the target, which was a good hundred feet behind us, so no problem.

01:14:18.620 - 01:14:35.740

Would he then fly past you and make patterns around you? They had regular, but we stayed the same. There was no, like, dogfighting. We didn't try to lose them.

01:14:38.300 - 01:14:59.140

Where were you staying at the airbase? Well we didn't exactly have, we had second best western. That's what I was trying to think of. While you were there what was your social?

01:14:59.580 - 01:15:15.700

I wasn't prepared for women at all. And this was a crude airbase, a lot of the tar paper, the buildings were tar paper. You know what I'm talking about? Are you familiar with that?

01:15:16.040 - 01:15:43.840

You know, they were just thrown together and hurt. And so they put us in the hospital section, but in ward, I should remember the number the ward, it was for the mentally off, Ward 8 I think it's called. Anyway, one of the rooms was totally padded on the inside.

01:15:47.020 - 01:16:09.080

That's what it was, it was for somebody who had lost it. But we didn't care, I mean it didn't matter where they put us actually. How were you treated? Beautifully and Colonel Bundy, bless his sweet old heart, really was good to all of us.

01:16:10.880 - 01:16:33.600

And he kept having reunions of the group long after we were gone. While you were there did you meet someone special? A lot of people that were special. Well there was a major cliff overcash, and I don't know whether I liked him so well or

01:16:33.640 - 01:16:52.660

his little cocker spaniel that he always had along with him. He was a nice person. But of the girls, there was a girl named Anne Tepas, T-E-P-A-S, Maggie—both girls are gone now.

01:16:54.100 - 01:17:05.880

Maggie Grant was from Brooklyn. She's the one that I tried to teach to drive. Well, I think she really knew how, but what a joke to put the clutch in when you want to turn left.

01:17:11.640 - 01:17:37.320

Margaret Hilburn, who has done extremely well as a civilian. If I was looking at that picture, I could remember more names, because this would be nice for them to hear. Oh Virginia Knapp went on there with us.

01:17:46.980 - 01:18:03.300

Somebody—Twitchell, I should remember her first name, but I can't. I, all of these people are so familiar, but I can't think of their names. What did your grandfather think about your flying? Oh, he thought it was great.

01:18:04.440 - 01:18:14.220

Do you remember the first time you came home with your uniform on? How were you treated? You know what, I don't think I wore my uniform home. I don't remember.

01:18:16.060 - 01:18:36.700

Do you remember how you felt when you heard about deactivation? I thought all of this, and now it's all over with. It just seemed a shame, because I thought we could go on to maybe more exalted kind of flying, like some of them really did.

01:18:38.620 - 01:18:58.100

I can't imagine the girls that went through later than we did, what a short period of time they had. Must have been really disappointing. What happened when you were deactivated at your base? At the base? Well, it continued to exist.

01:18:59.160 - 01:19:16.640

Did they do anything special for you girls? Probably. But see, Archie was at Randolph Field and I probably just hightailed it on over there. Could we back up and let me ask you when you met someone named Archie?

01:19:18.580 - 01:19:48.940

Right. It was after I had already decided I was going to try to get into the WASP program. And our next-door neighbor was a mutual friend of his mother's, and that's pretty interesting since he's from Virginia, and here we were finding mutual friends in Lefaria and Harlingen.

01:19:49.740 - 01:20:12.020

And he, Archie, was sent to the Harlingen Air Base, which was also a gunnery school where a lot of the B-26 pilots were stationed. friend Edna Modisette, Shirley Slade, among some. And so anyway, she invited him for dinner, and that's how we met each other.

01:20:13.500 - 01:20:34.580

And it just sort of progressed from there. And this was before you went into the WASP? What kind of relationship did you have while you were in the WASP? Well, it got too close once because he got one of his pilot friends to bring him to Avenger

01:20:34.680 - 01:20:49.740

Field, which was very verboten, as you know. And I was mortified, chagrined, and I thought, "How can he do this to me? They're going to wash me out." And so I hardly spoke to him.

01:20:50.800 - 01:21:11.900

When he jumped up, his friend touched down, Archie jumped off, I mean jumped out on the tarmac or on the field. And somebody went out and got him. Then we went out that evening with a couple of the girls from our, Pat Kenworthy was one,

01:21:12.180 - 01:21:26.860

Beverly Biesmeier was another. We just went out and enjoyed the evening. I don't even remember who picked him up and took him back home again, but I kind of wanted to sort of pretend like, "Who is this guy?

01:21:26.930 - 01:21:46.460

I don't really know who this is," because it was very much against the rules. Kelly: And then when was the next time you saw him? Well, he was stationed in Harlingen, so. No, he was, I'm sorry, he was at Randolph Field.

01:21:47.660 - 01:22:00.040

Okay. So, how did this romance bloom? Sporadically. It was just like how flowers grow when it rains.

01:22:01.620 - 01:22:15.180

Okay. I would go back and forth, after I was sent to Eagle Pass. I would occasionally go over if I could get a leave on the weekends and meet him in San Antonio.

01:22:17.380 - 01:22:35.020

It was pretty hard. Kelly: At this point, did you know that he was the one for you? Well, I guess so, anybody who risked landing there made it seem pretty positive. Yeah, I guess it was pretty much.

01:22:35.740 - 01:22:42.960

You're a real romantic, aren't you? I think it is romantic. That's great, that's great. It was very romantic.

01:22:43.420 - 01:23:06.140

After you were disbanded, what did you do then? How did that make you feel? Well I was married, see I got married at a time in between the time we finished at Avenger and before we reported to our field.

01:23:08.260 - 01:23:21.180

So that's when we got married. Did your mother know about this? Oh yeah, she had the wedding at home. We had a little garden wedding, very private, and it was just sweet as it could be, and

01:23:20.980 - 01:23:32.520

And then we went to Monterey for a week. You know, we had a week or something like that. And -- Now this happened after graduation, between graduation and reporting?

01:23:32.840 - 01:23:37.520

Right. Oh, okay. It was quick. It was quick.

01:23:38.180 - 01:24:14.520

And then -- then I think -- Lordy, lordy. You know what, I haven't the vaguest idea how he got back to Harlingen. Then he went to Tinian, I mean he went to the South Pacific, and I was living at home, and it wasn't too long after that that I was pretty pregnant.

01:24:15.460 - 01:24:33.400

And then he was in Tinian in the South Pacific when Ann was born. What was he doing in Tinian? He was a flight surgeon with the Eighth Air Force. I hope I have this right.

01:24:34.680 - 01:24:53.600

When he came back to the States, now you have what, one daughter? Maybe. So when he came back, he got out, he resigned. And that was when we went to Dallas for more training.

01:24:54.980 - 01:25:07.300

Oh, I don't know, where is all that? Kelly: That's okay, we don't have to have it exactly. It's just to kind of get a feel for what you did then. He was in and out.

01:25:07.330 - 01:25:28.060

See, he went back in the service during the Korean War. But this was after a couple of years. Could you feel a difference between the attitudes of people during World War II and the attitudes during the Korean War?

01:25:30.660 - 01:26:00.880

No, I was just glad he was back home because by then we had other kids. No, when I noticed a difference was when my son-in-law came back from Vietnam. It was really terrible. I still feel sorry for him because he was in the intelligence corps and was in Vietnam

01:26:01.140 - 01:26:21.820

on a pretty long tour, and he came back just so happy to be back home again. But he didn't talk any about his tour or anything. And as his little boys were growing up, they never really heard a whole lot about what their dad did.

01:26:22.640 - 01:26:53.760

And in reference to this whole WASP thing, I didn't, after we finished, I didn't feel like we had done anything so terribly wonderful. I mean I thought it was a tremendous experience and I loved every bit of it. And as they are saying now, it really opened the door for women in aviation.

01:26:54.540 - 01:27:20.340

And having talked to some of the cute, cute, sweet First Lieutenants who say, "Well, if it hadn't been for the WASP, we probably wouldn't be in the Air Force now. And they sort of made a believer of me that maybe we really did help get the—get it off the ground.

01:27:20.950 - 01:27:59.440

Kelly: Could I ask you, when you finished flight training and graduated, what qualities do you think that you possessed that you were able to finish training when half of your class perhaps washed out? I think it was a sense of independence and not relying on anything outside my own volition

01:27:59.440 - 01:28:31.240

succeed in this because I knew that it was probably one of the biggest things I had entered into in my life and that it was the time to really prove that I could do it. And I felt, I'm not reaching your whole question though, you're asking why do I think I was able to finish the program when so many couldn't.

01:28:35.760 - 01:29:16.060

I don't think I ever looked upon it as a romantic, glamorous thing to begin with. It was a concrete learning experience that had a lot of value to it and could be applied to something that I really wanted to be involved in, which was helping out in the war effort. I think it was just something that I felt obligated to finish and do, having been given

01:29:16.180 - 01:29:48.100

the opportunity, which was way and above some of the other things that I could have been doing. I mean, I realized that it was quite a privilege to be amongst those that were -- I guess I wasn't so aware that it was a step for women.

01:29:48.420 - 01:30:06.300

I didn't think of it in that way, but it was, well, it kind of, it really was, I guess. I mean, now we're so aware of that. Tell me about your children. Well, they're great.

01:30:07.300 - 01:30:38.540

Anne is the oldest, and very much like her father. She has a lot of the Virginia background in her personality, I think. And she's the one with two grandsons who are now young men, and David, who is the one who always enjoyed the horses we had and was such an excellent little rider.

01:30:39.980 - 01:31:04.060

He has two little boys, my great-grandsons, so what a joy. And Martin is an aspiring actor, bless his heart, he's going to hit it big one of these days, he's great, still got stars in his eyes. Then Bunny is the second, and Charlotte is her daughter, she's my only granddaughter,

01:31:04.260 - 01:31:27.480

which not only makes it very special, but I can say without any embarrassment to anyone that she's my favorite granddaughter. And Bunny is a very strong person. She and Ann had a children's store called The Rocking Horse, which was right down my

01:31:27.600 - 01:31:42.580

alley too, so it made it fun to follow their progress in that. They did quite well. And Ginny came along, and Ginny was our student. Ginny went to St. Mary's Hall to high school in San Antonio.

01:31:43.860 - 01:31:55.540

Then she went to—oh, I need to back up. Bunny went to the University of Texas. And then she went on a program called World Campus Afloat, which was a round-the-world boat thing.

01:31:56.580 - 01:32:18.960

went to Trinity in San Antonio and to Sullins in Virginia. And then she went to some sort of a fashion school in Atlanta, which I never really knew—I don't understand it, but I think it did her a lot of good. Now we're back down to Ginny again, who went to St. Mary's Hall.

01:32:19.040 - 01:32:38.900

Then she went to the University of North Carolina. From St. Mary's Hall she graduated with honors, she graduated with honors from the University of North Carolina. Then she decided that since English had been her major, she didn't know what she was going

01:32:38.900 - 01:33:00.220

to do with it. So she went to SMU to graduate school and that's when she took up what she's doing now, has been with PBS ever since. And I'll just have to throw in this little thing.

01:33:01.780 - 01:33:22.460

She's been very successful, has won two Emmys, which I just have to brag about, bragging rights. Okay, well one, first was for a show called After Goodbye, which was a very poignant, very necessary documentary at that time.

01:33:25.500 - 01:33:54.500

And then the second Emmy was for the Mexican-American War, which was a four-hour documentary requiring tremendous amount of study and everything. So that was quite a plumb, we're real proud of all of that. Then Graham is our youngest and he's an architect doing quite well, very artistic, has three

01:33:54.500 - 01:34:14.420

little boys who are just wonderful students in school, happy. What can you say about three little boys, age nine, eleven, and fifteen, they're all honor students. I love to have them come and visit.

01:34:15.980 - 01:34:42.820

And I'll tell you what, this last Mother's Day, it made me realize that there may be some drawbacks in being a grandmother. I mean the age of a grandmother, not being a grandmother, being the age of a grandmother. But the compensations are so overwhelming that you forget about being seventy-eight,

01:34:43.980 - 01:34:55.200

if that's how old I am. I had to stop and figure it out. And you just hope that you'll be lucky enough to see everything continue on the same level it is right now.

01:34:56.260 - 01:35:16.120

It's been a very fulfilling life. And I suppose in the back of my mind all along is this little bit of a shove that I got as being a WASP. And the recognition that the program has gotten since, and although I don't know that I contributed

01:35:16.300 - 01:35:34.300

anything tremendous to its success, at least I finished. And I'm very proud of that fact. And I know that it's made a difference in my life, and I know that the children are proud of it.

01:35:35.440 - 01:35:54.780

And so even though I haven't been active in going to reunions and everything, I still have tremendously fond and proud memories of having been in the program. What more can I say? I mean, it's great.

01:35:55.300 - 01:36:27.360

It hasn't been the full focus of my life ever since. Archie's success as a physician has been tremendous, and all of our children are successful and happy, living very fulfilling lives. Of all the things, and looking back over your life, of all the things that you have done,

01:36:28.120 - 01:36:42.100

what are you the most proud of? My family. I mean, I don't have to think twice about that. And I, but, okay, I can reinforce that by saying that there's no doubt in my mind that

01:36:42.100 - 01:37:05.640

And having been a WASP has helped me to be a more complete person and something to be very proud of and to be able to let my children feel proud of what I've been. Archie was an honors student all the way through his medical school, and I could be jealous of that, but I'm not.

01:37:07.480 - 01:37:36.280

I did my thing, too. So what do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? I hope it will be, I think the legacy has already been fulfilled when I see the young women in the Air Force now, and the high-ranking officers in the Air Force, and the dignity

01:37:36.500 - 01:37:59.340

that they carry on as officers in the Air Force. I think the WASP program has fulfilled its legacy. Is that the way you say it? Plus, all of the WASP friends that I am still in contact with, I think have had their lives

01:37:59.700 - 01:38:26.300

tremendously affected by having had the privilege and the good luck and the timing. It was a time in history, everything just sort of came together right. It took that timing to do it. What do you hope your legacy will be?

01:38:26.850 - 01:39:16.080

Oh my gosh. have been able to give the children a sense of pride in who their mother and father are, who their grandparents are and to live up to who they are. >>If you could say, give a message to the children who will be watching this 30, 40

01:39:16.260 - 01:39:37.480

years from now, what would you like to say to them to encourage them to follow their dreams? Or to your grandchildren? Try to recognize who you are and fulfill your own possibilities.

01:39:39.760 - 01:40:27.520

Keep a sense of integrity that can't be imposed on by changing fashion styles, fads that go on and whatnot, and to maintain happy memories of their home life and remember them as part of their integral selves and to never disappoint themselves by giving in to something that might seem more attractive on the—where the grass might seem greener on the other

01:40:27.590 - 01:40:50.280

side of the fence. I don't know. to teach them. Just that love and family closeness and respect can never be outdone by anything else.

01:40:52.780 - 01:41:05.740

It's the lynchpin. Is that what they say? Is that the correct use of that word? Holds everything together.

01:41:08.800 - 01:41:34.100

Can I ask you what you think about Jacqueline Cochran? Boy, I think she was a person, the right person at the right time. She had tremendous strength of character. She had direction, and she was strong enough to stick with what she felt was a good thing,

01:41:34.920 - 01:42:02.040

even though it was an experimental thing. And I think because of her absolute dedication to her dream, this is what made a lot of it possible. She overcame prejudice and doubt, and she believed that women were as capable of doing

01:42:02.300 - 01:42:12.100

something as men. And you know what? I think so too. And I think that's something.

01:42:13.520 - 01:42:36.380

How do you know whether to support some of that stuff? Tell me I'm not a good Clinton girl. I didn't say anything about that in that report. But I think he's, I think our foreign policy is in need of somebody strong, and I don't

01:42:36.420 - 01:42:48.840

know who it's going to be. In addition to our morality. Yes. I mean, even the, that's the worst part.

01:42:48.840 - 01:43:00.840

of the whole thing because he's not the only one. I mean, the whole thing seems to be, I don't think I brought in morality in that, but that's integrity.

01:43:03.060 - 01:43:12.680

- Right, when you said integrity, 'cause that was when I was kind of getting at with how you were brought up about rules or whatever, but integrity covered it.

01:43:12.900 - 01:43:17.860

- You just don't. - No, I think it's one. No, and-- - Character.

01:43:18.320 - 01:43:30.680

Yeah, character. Yeah, I didn't have to say character. I mean, that's sort of an outworn question. Oh, no, that last five minutes was just--

01:43:30.720 - 01:43:37.380

Well, I'm not a fast enough thinker. I'm sorry. But we didn't talk about the horses. We didn't talk about--

01:43:37.400 - 01:43:50.960

No, we didn't. - Besides which, not being a fast thinker, I have a good vocabulary, but then I'll be searching for the word to use.

01:43:51.200 - 01:43:56.460

- Sure. - Ah, makes me so mad. I'm sorry. Terrible speaker.

01:43:56.980 - 01:44:02.840

As far as my voice sounds like, it's coming out of a gravel pit. - No, it sounds great. Do you ever give speeches?

01:44:03.620 - 01:44:08.760

Have you given speeches? - No. One time I had to give a speech at the Child Study Club.

01:44:09.820 - 01:44:20.980

I've never been so scared in all my life. - It gets easier, young girl, if you do it. - Well, when you have somebody moderating it the way you did, for lead questions,

01:44:21.900 - 01:44:31.820

then you're great, you were super. - Oh, I wanted to ask you. - I hope you do a lot of editing on that. - Well, anything we put on the internet,

01:44:31.960 - 01:44:39.520

we'll edit for sure, as we put up soundbites. - But the copy that we give to you will be exactly like it went today. - I don't even want to hear it.

01:44:40.500 - 01:44:46.100

Some of it sounds so dumb. - No, it doesn't. It may sound dumb to you. It didn't sound dumb to me.

01:44:46.200 - 01:44:54.460

I was fascinated. Just fascinated. - But you think there were like 30 in our class, our graduating class, maybe 40.

01:44:55.200 - 01:45:06.360

You ask what we did, what do you do? - Right. - You know, you bicycle around the block over and over. - I thought maybe you--

01:45:06.360 - 01:45:23.560

which we probably should have been punished for, that certainly wasn't gonna tell about this. We were always home in time, but are you familiar with the religious group

01:45:23.720 - 01:45:30.720

called the Holy Rollers? - Yes, we have them in Florida. - They were having a tent. - Revival. - Revival.

01:45:32.160 - 01:45:39.280

We loved to ride our bikes around. - I had to sit there with those people. - Shouting? - Shouting and carrying on, you know.

01:45:39.460 - 01:45:53.960

And we were so, so irreverent about it. We never made a sound, but we sure were listening. - Oh! - I'm gonna ask you what you're passionate about.

01:45:54.740 - 01:46:02.200

What gets you up in the morning? What makes you, you know? - What makes you tick? - Taking care of this place.

01:46:02.590 - 01:46:16.160

I love it. And he takes us home, the horses, Kalua gets me up there right on the dot. And Archie still puts in two hours every day. And he leaves at seven o'clock.

01:46:18.260 - 01:46:27.800

How do you think, is it, how many years, 60 years you've been married? Fifty, 55. Fifty-five? Because Ann's 54.

01:46:27.920 - 01:46:32.680

How in the world did you do that? I'll show you. You'll show me? No, I'll show you.

01:46:33.300 - 01:46:48.320

a book that kids, I mean a photograph album that kids gave us. He's the one who has held this marriage together. Archie could have been... Well I can imagine, a young flight surgeon, wow.

01:46:48.940 - 01:47:06.020

He could have practiced anywhere in the United States and we would have been much better off. But I'm not so sure that that's true. I mean, it's a nice neighborhood.

01:47:07.660 - 01:47:16.620

And money isn't the only thing. I mean, sometimes it helps. If you wanna live in Highland Park, you gotta have it. Anne said to me one time,

01:47:16.720 - 01:47:30.720

well, Mother, if you had let Daddy practice in San Antonio or Boston or Virginia or someplace, she said, you know, we could live in Highland Park. And I said, "Ann, would you really want to live in Highland Park?"

01:47:30.720 - 01:47:43.860

She said, "No, I'd rather live in San Miguel." But anyway... I'll turn it off for now. There's so much that we didn't ask her about the rest of her life.