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[BEEP] (beep) - We'll just roll and then, it's tape, it's not film. - What was that last?

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- It's tape, so we can always rewind it. (laughing) - Is it working now? - It is working.

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- Okay, you want her to start? - Yeah, let's go ahead and start. - Okay, today is what, April 20th, I meant May? - May the 20th.

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May the 20th. Okay, we're at Maxine's home in Alice, Texas. Okay, I'm Maxine Edmondson Flournoy, and I was born in the little town of Wheaton, Missouri, March the 30th, 1921. And my father was a young dentist, and my mother, my father and mother had known each other. they had grown up together.

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My mother lived out in the country from the little town of Stella, Missouri, and all those people around there came to us one way or the other. I went to school in Wheaton until I was in the sixth grade. I can't remember my parents ever taking me to school unless it was freezing weather.

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And everybody walked and everybody took their lunch. Let's back up just a minute for Maxine. Did you have brothers and sisters? I had a brother who was eighteen months younger.

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Did you live near your grandparents? Well it was, yes. lived in Stella which was only about eight miles away. I thought it was a long way then. As a young child were you with your grandparents a lot?

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Yes, especially in the summertime we'd go down, we'd go to Grandpa and Grandma's. They lived out in the country and they'd make homemade ice cream and my grandfather would always have a great big huge bowl and he'd finish that and he'd say that sample was pretty nice. I'll never forget that.

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Sometimes we'd have watermelon. What did they do out on the farm? Well he just farmed this country. He was a farmer.

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Did you help with the chores when you went there? Did I do any chores? Uh-huh. Oh, they let me milk a cow that was easy to milk.

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That's the only chore I can remember doing. I think we just had fun there. I must have stayed there quite a bit because I remember I learned how to milk that cow, that easy one.

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Let's see, we lived there until the sixth grade. And then my father and mother divorced, and after that it was pretty tough because he He was supposed to support us, but he didn't always do it. So we always wanted to live with Mama, because he remarried not too long after that.

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And she would take us until she lost her job or something, and then she'd send us back. Did he live in the same town? He lived there for quite some time. He eventually moved to Joplin.

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How old were you when they divorced? I believe that I was twelve. It was a traumatic thing. Do you remember how you felt about it?

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Oh yeah, pretty bad. We lived through it. I'm kind of glad we had all those bad experiences because it made the rest of everything pretty Then I went to one year, my mother had a job in El Paso.

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I don't remember why she went out there. I think it was because she had a friend in Las Cruces, New Mexico, which isn't very far. So we went to school in El Paso, and I liked it out there. What grade was this?

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What grade? Let's see, I believe it must have been the eighth grade that they put me back in, what they call high seven when I moved out there. And I liked that climate.

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What was your mother doing to support you? She was working for Sears and Roebuck in the cooking department, the pots and pans and and stuff like that. Did you get little jobs to help out?

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No I didn't. I think I must have been a little too young. It never occurred to me to get a job, but I was the one who did the grocery shopping and I cooked the evening meal after school for my mother and brother and me.

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In junior high did you do sports or did you enter into anything extracurricular at school Or did you just pretty much study? I can't remember any specific sports. I think I played a little tennis, not enough to even mention.

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And before I left Wheaton, I played on the basketball team. But I never played on, I don't remember playing basketball after that. And high school, my mother had moved back to Joplin, and so I graduated from Joplin High School.

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>>Were your grandparents still there? >>My grandparents? They lived out in the country about forty miles away. I think they were still there.

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I believe they didn't die until after I married. In high school, what did you enjoy as far as studying? I think that I probably enjoyed botany and biology and things like that. And then what was your mother doing?

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Or was she working in Joplin? You know, I can't remember that. I really don't remember that. Do you remember any teachers in high school that might have influenced you or that you

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really enjoyed? Yes, I had a really good English teacher. I can't remember her name now. And I had a good Spanish teacher.

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The funny part of it is I took two years of Spanish in high school from an English-speaking Spanish teacher, and I took two years in junior college, and if I'd known I was going to move down here, I'd have studied harder. I can read a little now, but I sure can't speak it.

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But I'm glad of the little bit at least that I had. When you were in high school, what did you think, what were you preparing for? Oh, I always thought I'd like to be an attorney. I don't know why.

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Of course, I never did. At that time, were there a lot of girl attorneys? I don't think so. I don't believe so.

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That's a long time ago. I don't know why I ever thought I could be an attorney. It didn't materialize. When I was in high school, I had a job at a dime store that I worked Saturdays.

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I kept that job quite a long time. Do you remember what you did with the money you made? I didn't make all that much. We went to the movie.

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I tried to go to the—that's about all I did was go to the movies. I think the best movie in town costs a quarter, and the cheaper ones were ten cents or fifteen cents. Do you remember what your friends were like in high school?

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Yes, I had a close friend named Marie Stasek. I don't know where Marie is now. I think she's in Tulsa. And I had a good cousin, Lorraine Schultz.

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I was active—I'm getting mixed up in—I was on the yearbook committee in high school, And I did the layout for the pictures, and I did the same thing in junior college, but I was an editor one year in junior college. I never quite finished junior college because I worked half a day and went to school half

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a day. And then the second year, I was editor, and my mother said that I could go to school all day, so I did that. And then I started in the next year, worked half a day, and the war was coming on, and

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so there was a defense plant there in Joplin, and I applied and got a job there. And so I quit junior college. I only had fifty-eight hours, not quite enough to get whatever little degree they gave. What were you studying in junior college?

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Journalism? Well, I had quite a bit of science, English, I guess just the regular stuff. I don't remember. In high school, do you remember your prom?

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My prom? Yeah. No, I don't remember. you were in high school, was your brother real active in high school?

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I don't think so. I don't think so. Then you went on to junior college once you graduated. Before the war started. Yeah, because see, I graduated in 1939 and the war didn't, we didn't get into the war. The war was going on, but we didn't get into it until December the 7th, 1941.

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You remember that day? I sure do. Tell me about it. Well, for one thing, I didn't even know where Pearl Harbor was.

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That's just terrible, but I didn't. And I'll bet a lot of kids now don't know where Pearl Harbor is. But I knew that it was something really bad and that we were being invaded. And—

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How did that affect the people in your town or affect your life at that time? Well, I can't remember when we started rationing, but it affected everybody's life. Everything was rationed. Shoes, gasoline, sugar, everything was rationed.

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At that time, was your mother then still working? Yes. And you and your brother were living at home with her? Yes, we were.

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I cannot remember when she remarried, but she did remarry. And that husband died. I cannot remember when. How did you feel about her remarrying?

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Well, I do not guess any child ever thinks that is a good idea, but it really was. It worked out very well. She did not have to work so hard. Was he good to you kids?

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Yeah. After Pearl Harbor, did your brother go into the service? No, not, no he didn't go in. Did you have any friends from high school or from junior college who went into the service?

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Oh, yeah, just about everybody, and many of them didn't come back. Some of my classmates. How did that affect your life? I don't guess I ever thought about how it affected my life.

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I mean, it was shocking, and you just almost couldn't believe, you know, that you weren't going to see those kids again. But that's the way it was. Okay, you went two years to junior college.

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That's when I decided to join the WASP. How did you know about the WASP? Well, this little junior college, it wasn't very old at the time. It's now a four-year college by another name.

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But it had a CPT program, Civil Pilot Training Program, government sponsored. And ten percent could be girls. Well, I had a girlfriend who was in a class and she would come in and tell me all about flying this airplane and doing spins and stalls.

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I just decided I'd sure like to do that. And so I applied and I got in the class and there were nine boys and me. We had to go to ground school at night and then we'd go out early and fly, or at least I flew really early in the morning.

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Then I went to school, to junior college. And so that's how I got my private pilot's license. And I guess they have a list of those people in Washington somehow. And so I was contacted a couple of years later and told about the WASP program and said if

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I was interested to go to Kansas City for an interview. And so I went to Kansas City with this friend that flew ahead of me in the CPT program. And I joined, but she didn't. I do not know if her parents objected or not.

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My mother had to sign for me for the CPT program, but by the time the WASP came, I was twenty-one, so she did not have to sign, and I doubt if she would have, if she had to sign. Let me go back, Maxine, and find out, when do you remember seeing your first airplane? I do not remember.

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Tell me about the airport where you learned to fly and what kind of airplanes. The airport? Well, the Choplin Municipal Airport is still there. And it had, I think it just had grass strips.

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And I've been back there now and it's still in the same location. Of course, they have paved runways now and they leveled off some of the hills, but it's still a little hilly. Tell me about your instructor.

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Well, I can't remember a whole lot about him. Did you have the same instructor all the way through? All the way through CPT, yes, I did. Do you remember your first solo?

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What were you in? Piper Cub. Yeah, it was a—well, I was excited about it. I was proud of it.

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I couldn't believe that there I was up there all by myself. Do you think that you were able to solo just as quickly as any of those boys? Oh, yeah. What did your mother think about your flying?

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Did she ever come out and watch? She probably did, but I can't remember. And I don't remember what she thought. I guess she knew I was going to do it, so she just accepted it.

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How about your brother? Did that make him want to learn to fly? No, it didn't. Okay, so you went to Kansas City.

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Do you remember who interviewed you? I believe her name was Ethel Sheehy. How did you get to Kansas City? I had to go on the bus.

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That was during the war. Nobody wanted to give you any of their gasoline ration stamps to go off on a trip like that. We caught the bus. I guess we caught the bus back.

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I don't remember spending the night. And then how long before you, did you take a physical? I think probably about three months. They told me to go to the nearest military base, which was Camp Crowder.

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It was about twenty miles away in Neosho, Missouri. So I took my orders and went down there. They weren't quite set up to give women physicals, but we managed. They'd shoo all of them out ahead of me, and then I'd go in.

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I passed the physical, thank heaven. EC: What kind of air base was that? FG: It was a signal corps. EC: While you were getting your private pilot's license, did you fly Piper Cubs the whole

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time? Were there other little airplanes? No, in the class, in the CPT class, I believe it was Piper Cubs all the time. And then there was a period of about three years and I had this job, but every time I'd

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get a little money, I'd go out and buy 30 minutes of flying. And so by the time I joined the WASP, I had 58 hours. What did you enjoy about flying? Well, I just like to get up in the air and look around.

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It's just a feeling that is hard for me to describe, but I loved it. I really did. Once you took your physical, then how long did you have to wait before they notified you to report?

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It doesn't seem like it's very long. It seems like I went on down to, I caught the train and went to Sweetwater. And— Were there other girls on the train that you met?

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There were others there after—I think I was the only one when I got on. By the time we got to Dallas and on to Sweetwater, others had joined. But they're kind of hard to identify, you know, in their civilian clothes, which I met them in Sweetwater.

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We were met there by Avenger Field officials when we got to the train. Okay. And then did they come in and get you to go out to Avenger? How did you get out to Avenger?

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They met us at the train. With what? I don't know. It was probably that cattle truck, I don't know.

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Did they have anything else? [Laughs] >> Tell me your first impression of Avenger. >> Oh, I was just so impressed with all the airplanes flying around and the girls in their

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khaki slacks and white shirts. I was very impressed and happy to be there and proud to be there. Did you have any fear of not making it through? I think everybody probably had that when you get those check rides and then when your instructor

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yells at you. My instructor, we had those gossports for those primary traders, and he'd yell into this tube and it would come in your ears and your ears would go like this and then sometimes he'd get mad and he'd take the stick and beat your knees.

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He was back in the back. But we learned. I guess I wasn't too scared of it, but I sure did respect it. Tell me, when you got to Avenger, what was the first section of training all about?

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What did you do? The first thing? Was that ground school? What did you do?

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I can't remember. It seemed like we started everything at once. We had flying half a day and ground school half a day. I think we probably started them all at once.

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I cannot remember what we would do the other half if we did not go to ground school. Tell me about where you lived. You mean at Sweetwater? In our bay?

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Well, they were barrack-like rooms, and they had, they called them bays. And there were six girls to a bay, one little bath, and we slept on army cots. And we didn't mind them being uncomfortable. We were too tired, it didn't matter.

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And we had to learn to get along with each other. Tell me about your bay mates. Have I told you about Mary Fury? Well I loved them all, but Mary Fury liked to sleep late, and we only had a chance, I

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think on Sunday or Saturday or maybe those, and so she'd wrap her head around with a black scarf, and we were all supposed to be quiet. Well, Irene Eister was an early bird, and so she tried her best to be quiet, but she'd stay in her bunk and write letters.

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And of course, I guess some of us had to get up and go to the bathroom. One day Mary sat up in bed and pulled that black scarf away from her eyes, and she said, Scratch, scratch, scratch, scratch, splash, splash, splash, splash. She said, "Can't you all be quiet?"

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She kind of intimidated us a little bit. But anyway, she was nice, and all of them were nice. One of them went ahead and went into the Air Force afterwards. I think one was a librarian in San Francisco, and I cannot remember what the others were.

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Tell me about the mess hall where you ate. What was the food like? Well, it seems like we had squash every day, and I had never eaten squash. And so it was always fixed the same way too.

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yellow blob and you didn't have to, you didn't say, "I don't want any," because you just got it anyway. When you went by, they just put it on there. And I threw a lot of it away, but now I like it.

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Then it was strange. Squash is the only thing I can remember. Everything else I guess was acceptable. Tell me about your first instructor.

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Well, that's the one that yelled at me in those gossip boards. He was a good instructor. What were you flying? A PT-19, a Fairchild, and his name was Lamb, I believe.

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I can't remember his first name. David? Yeah, David Lamb. Did you have him?

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He yelled at you, too. Tell me about your solo. About what, my solo? Solo, yeah.

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I can't remember about it. Tell me about what happened to the first girl that was solo. Did you have a tradition there? Yes, I think they put them in the fountain, dunked them.

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I don't remember being dunked. Maybe I did, but I surely would have remembered it. I don't remember it. How about ground school?

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We learned a lot, and we had to work hard. What were you taking? Do you remember some of the courses? We took weather, we took how instruments worked and how engines worked, and navigation.

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Do you remember if anything was particularly hard for you? I think those engines were hard for me. And maybe how the instruments worked. How about Morse code?

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Oh, yes, that was hard. I forgot we had to learn Morse code. Yeah, we had to learn that. After your first solo, then where would you fly out of?

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Would you fly out of other fields other than Avenger? Yes, they had a few auxiliary fields around. I don't remember them being paved. They were just fields, grass fields, if there was any grass.

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I remember how dusty it was there in the summer, or maybe all the time we were there. And the wind would blow and the dust would blow, and there was no air conditioning, so those rooms were always open. And when you get ready to go to bed at night, you'd shake the blanket, and then you had

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to shake the sheets because there was so much dust. I think I've got a picture of my hair when it was—we didn't wash our hair every day. Just whenever we could manage it, then the dust and the dirt would stick in your hair and it would just be stiff with, I guess, dust and mud.

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It didn't matter. It didn't hurt us a bit. Tell me about inspections. Did you have inspections?

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Oh, yes, we had inspections. And I believe they were mostly on Saturday. And here would come the officer in his white gloves, and he'd run his hand over everything, and if he found any dust, you couldn't go into town.

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So we were very careful about having everything in order and clean. While you were in primary, did any of your classmates wash out? I think so, but I can't remember. I think they probably washed out in primary and maybe a few in basic.

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But none of the girls in your bay? Did you stay the same six? No, none of us washed out. We made it.

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Who was your most particular friend? Did you have one particular friend? You mean in Sweetwater? Uh-huh.

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I think maybe Mary Ferry, Mary Estill Ferry, and Irene Meister. I believe she's in England now. When you went, were assigned to your bays, did you select your roommates? How was that done?

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How did you? Alphabetically, we had nothing. We had no choice. Okay.

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And that's how we marched everywhere, alphabetically. What did you do when you marched? Well, that's the only way we could get around. We marched everywhere.

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We marched to Ness Hall, we marched to the flight line, we marched back. I don't remember walking without marching very many times. Do you remember singing? Singing?

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Oh, yeah, we always sang. Some of them pretty funny songs. Once you finished primary, then what happened? Well, then you went into basic training in a BT-13, and I believe we had 13s and 15s.

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And oh, I thought that was the biggest airplane in the world. And I really enjoyed basic. Then we went into our class. Tell me why you enjoyed BASIC.

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Oh, it was a big engine. I think it had 450 horsepower. And I just, when I pushed that throttle, I'd just feel all that power and it just gave me a really big thrill.

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And then we did some night flying also, I believe, in BASIC. Did you do some instrument flying? Yes, we did. I can't remember if it was basic or—I think it might have been basic.

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How about Link Trainer? Oh, yeah. Link Trainer did that, too. Tell me about Link Trainer.

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Well, you just get in this mock airplane, and each link had a man who maneuvered it for you and he'd put it in spins and you're supposed to get out and stalls and cross country. And then they had radio ranges and they don't have those anymore. They're gone.

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Do you remember when you first started aerobatics? You know, our class didn't get aerobatics. I wish we had. Did you get cross country when you were?

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Yes, I can't remember which, basic or advanced, but we had cross country. We might have had a little in both, I just don't remember. I get mixed up with wash flying and civilian flying afterwards. Okay, that's the end of that tape.

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Oh, this is great. Hey, you're doing great. Did you give a few more hours in primary? We had 70 hours primary, 70 basic, 70 advanced. We had 210 hours. I was there 7 months. I think you were probably there 6, right?

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Uh-huh. I don't believe we had that many hours. We were there 7. We got 70 in each one. But see, it's different, so. We're rolling. I don't think we had that many.

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I think we had 60-60 and 60. Okay, we're in basic training. Tell me, was there ever a time when you were really frightened while you were in training? Really frightened? I don't believe so. Let me ask you this, was there ever a time from the time you started flying back in the

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Piper Cub, did there come a time when you knew that you could be a pilot? I think I probably knew that all along. I never doubted it. Okay.

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Good. Okay. Do you remember who your instructor was and how many students he had? His name was Bob Johnson, and I don't remember how many students he had, but he was a very

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good instructor. What did you do for social life while you were at Avenger? I don't remember having very much social life. I guess we'd go into town when we could.

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Let's see, we didn't have much. You could only go in Saturday night and Sunday. And I don't remember very much social life. I guess I went to the USO.

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It seemed like they had something in town. Was it USO? Okay. Do you remember any particular girl that stands out in your mind in training that was perhaps different from the rest of you?

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No, I guess I just didn't observe Once you finished basic once you finished primary did you get some time off? No, no You just stayed right there. Mm-hmm

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Then once you finished basic Then what did you do? Went right into advanced. Our class had 30 hours of AT-6 and 30 hours of

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AT-17 which was a twin-engine. So. Tell me about the AT-6. Oh, it was the sweetest airplane I've ever flown in my life. I'd love to have one, fly one again.

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But its engine was 650 horsepower, and it could just do anything we thought. I really liked the AT-6. The AT-17 was interesting because of the two engines. It was easy to fly.

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It was like a big cub. And I appreciated them when I got out. I was rated as a twin-engine pilot. Okay.

00:37:13.160 - 00:37:37.500

While you were in training in the AT-17s, was the instructor always with you or did sometimes just wasp trainees fly? You know, I can't remember that. When we soloed, we probably had WASP.

00:37:37.840 - 00:37:49.720

I don't remember that. I don't know, so that's-- I don't really remember. You don't remember whether or not you actually soloed in that plane, or was it solo with

00:37:49.760 - 00:37:56.440

another WASP? You don't-- Well, I'm sure that we weren't-- you mean solo all-- be the only one? Right.

00:37:56.960 - 00:38:12.240

I don't believe so. that we probably, when we soloed, we had a WASP co-pilot. Okay. Did you go on any cross countries when you were in advanced training? Well, I can't remember, but we probably did.

00:38:14.380 - 00:38:27.720

I went on cross countries and I can't remember just where, when it occurred. While you were there, did you ever get homesick? No, I never did. Did your mother get homesick for you?

00:38:27.920 - 00:38:48.200

I think so. What was your uniform like while you were at Avenger? Khaki pants and a white shirt. And for every day we had those ugly, what we called zoot suits.

00:38:48.200 - 00:39:09.340

It was just a coverall. I think that somebody had worn out and discarded them, and they gave them to us. They didn't fit, but that's what we wore. We'd strap on, put tape here and a little piece of paper, and then we'd put all of our

00:39:10.560 - 00:39:34.080

flight information on our knee. While you were there, what would happen when a class would graduate? Well, they always had a--. Everybody would march and review, and there was usually some important person who came

00:39:34.260 - 00:39:50.100

for the occasion. It was an exciting time. You had to stand, if you were not graduating, you had to stand out there a long time, that parade rest.

00:39:52.750 - 00:40:11.340

Did that make you appreciate those trainees that were standing out there when you graduated? Oh, yeah. Tell me about the weather in Sweetwater while you were there. I can hardly remember anything except dust.

00:40:12.860 - 00:40:29.200

It was windy, and every time the wind blew, the dust blew. And I cannot remember very much rain. I am sure it rained a little. You were there during the summertime.

00:40:30.720 - 00:40:44.160

Did you do anything to keep cool at night? No, I guess there wasn't anything to do. You just-- Did you ever sleep outside?

00:40:45.160 - 00:40:56.240

No, I never did. Now, some I understand did. Well, that question went nowhere, didn't it? I wanted to know if you ever got in trouble.

00:40:58.020 - 00:41:18.920

No, I didn't. I tried to observe all the rules. I was scared of people in authority, and I'd just stay clear of them as far as I could. I didn't try to make any friends with anybody in authority, which was a mistake.

00:41:20.240 - 00:41:43.420

As graduation time approached, what were you told? What did you expect when you graduated? Oh, I expected to be assigned to some field. And I can't remember requesting Twin Engine.

00:41:43.840 - 00:42:05.000

I think I was surprised when I got it that I would have preferred to fly in all those fighters and all those glamorous airplanes. But I was assigned to Hondo Army Air Base, and it was a navigation school. I had two kinds of airplanes, both twin-engine.

00:42:05.170 - 00:42:23.120

An AT-7, which was a Beechcraft, and a C-60, which was a Volte. So I have a lot of twin-engine time. When you graduated, did you have some time off? Yes, we had a little time off.

00:42:23.380 - 00:42:45.460

What did you do? We graduated before Christmas, and I don't think I had to report to Hondo before, I can't remember if it was the first of the year or what, whenever they told me I was there. Okay, so what did you do on that vacation?

00:42:46.880 - 00:42:58.180

I went back to Joplin, Missouri. Did your friends in Joplin know what you were doing? I think so. I think so.

00:42:58.850 - 00:43:25.160

At that point, you were not in a formal type uniform, is that correct? That's correct. We didn't have -- when we -- for just myself, I don't know about the others. When we got to Hondo, we were issued uniforms, and that was in January of 1944.

00:43:27.660 - 00:43:46.740

And that's the first uniform that I had. Did they fit you for it, or was it just off the rack? Well, I think it was off the rack. They asked you what size you wore, and you had slacks and a battle jacket and a dress

00:43:46.860 - 00:44:18.260

jacket and some work shirts, which were blue, and some dress shirts, which were white, and black shoes, kind of like slip-ons. I don't believe they had a tie, and let's see, a black tie, and a shoulder bag, which was the first shoulder bag I had ever seen.

00:44:20.000 - 00:44:30.380

And even the, and the WACs after that, they liked that idea, so they got a shoulder bag too. But that was the first one. I still have mine.

00:44:33.240 - 00:44:42.400

What was your opinion of the uniform? What was what? What was your opinion of the uniform? Oh, I liked it.

00:44:42.980 - 00:44:56.580

I was proud of it. It was so much better than those khaki slacks. I was proud of it. Let me back up to your graduation.

00:44:57.020 - 00:45:06.020

Who came to your graduation? Did you have family that came? Yes, my mother came. And what did your mother, how did she feel?

00:45:06.980 - 00:45:26.880

Well I guess she was proud or she wouldn't have been there. And let's see, she stayed at the Blue Bonnet Hotel and I stayed over there with her. I think that's the name of that hotel where everybody stayed. And the graduation ceremony itself, tell me about that.

00:45:29.480 - 00:45:38.200

Well I can't remember that much about it. I just. Do you remember, was Miss Cochran there? Do I remember what?

00:45:38.460 - 00:45:57.100

If Miss Cochran, Jacqueline Cochran was there? I don't believe she was there at ours. I don't believe she was. getting your orders, did they ask you for your request of where you wanted to go?

00:45:58.400 - 00:46:17.740

I can't remember having a choice. So once you graduated, then you and your mother then went home on the train or what? At that time she was living in California and she went back to California. I don't remember if she went on the bus or the train.

00:46:19.120 - 00:46:31.640

I went to Missouri. I can't remember how I got there either, whether I went on the bus or the train. Do you remember what the attitude of the people were that you knew in Joplin when you came back?

00:46:33.220 - 00:46:44.340

Oh, I don't think they were very impressed. Do you think they were even aware? No, I don't think they were aware at all. Where was your brother by this time?

00:46:44.940 - 00:46:59.400

He was in California. So then you leave Joplin and you go down to Hondo, right? To whom did you report? Well, a commanding officer.

00:46:59.540 - 00:47:18.560

I can't remember his name right now. Then we were under, directly under a major who was in charge of us. There were about seven, most of the time, sometimes ten WASPs there, most of the time seven.

00:47:21.680 - 00:47:40.440

We were assigned to different flights. They had three different flights there. This major that was in charge of us, he thought we ought to be back home in the kitchen, but But he wasn't ugly about it.

00:47:41.130 - 00:47:55.880

He didn't harass us or anything. He just plainly didn't think we should be there. And eventually, a younger captain -- this Major was -- I thought he was real old. He was probably thirty-five.

00:47:57.100 - 00:48:15.240

And eventually, we were in charge of a younger captain. I don't know how old he was. I thought he wasn't near as old as the major, so he was probably twenty-seven or eight. I thought he was pretty old.

00:48:16.420 - 00:48:35.600

And he just thought we were wonderful and that we could do no wrong. And so that's how we were accepted, I think. Most of the, everywhere, some people were sold on us and some weren't. And I think that was kind of typical.

00:48:36.820 - 00:48:55.020

Now the commanding officer at Hondo liked us, but he wasn't in very much direct contact with us. He had turned us over to these other people. But even if the commanding officer didn't like you, he couldn't keep you from flying,

00:48:56.540 - 00:49:21.780

because that was what we were sent there to do, and we had to do it. And so we slow timed new engines and did engine extensions and routine test flying. What's an engine extension? Well after an engine had flown so many hours and it was still running well, you'd take

00:49:21.820 - 00:49:42.320

the crew chief. Each airplane had its own crew chief. If you take the crew chief and go up and decide whether you thought it could be flown an extra number of hours before an overhaul, you would extend the time that it could be flown.

00:49:43.020 - 00:50:03.580

That was one of our jobs. Slow time new engines was interesting because when they put a new engine on, it had to be We had to be flown slow. Used to cars had to be driven slow, slowly for about a thousand miles to break them in.

00:50:03.660 - 00:50:15.500

They said, "Well, airplane engines were the same way." And I think they do both at the factory now. They break them in at the factory so you don't have to worry with your car or your airplane engine.

00:50:17.560 - 00:50:36.120

And they had to be flown two hours. So we would go up, sometimes with a crew chief, sometimes with another WASP, and we were supposed to fly in the practice area. Well, you get tired of flying back and forth in the practice area for two hours, so we'd

00:50:36.140 - 00:50:52.940

go over to Garner Park and we'd look down and see what was going on at Garner Park. And we'd fly over to San Antonio and see what was going on at all those airfields around there. And then when the two hours were up, well, we'd go back, land at Hondo.

00:50:53.820 - 00:51:23.220

We couldn't get away with it now with radar, but nobody ever caught us. They probably knew what we were doing, but I don't guess it was too bad. So that was usually what we did. You can see if we flew two hours for a slow time of new engine, you could mount up quite

00:51:23.220 - 00:51:38.940

a bit of time in a hurry. EC: Were there other girls out of your class that were also sent to Honda? FG: Yes, let's see. I think there was--I believe there was just one other one out of my class.

00:51:38.940 - 00:51:51.740

No, there were two. And one of those resigned. Most everybody was already there. They stayed there.

00:51:53.200 - 00:52:11.580

How did it make you feel when a girl would resign? Well, it would make me feel kind of sad. This girl resigned because she was pregnant. So I mean, how do you feel about that?

00:52:12.550 - 00:52:26.140

So. While you were at this field in Hondo, were there cadets on that field? Oh, yes. They were.

00:52:26.260 - 00:52:40.940

That was a navigation school. That was the purpose of that, to teach. They were cadets just like a pilot cadet. They were navigation cadets, and then there were also bombardier cadets learning how to

00:52:41.760 - 00:52:57.320

bomb. Let's see, where were they? They were at Big Spring, I believe, which wasn't too far away. And so, yes, they had to learn how to do their navigation because they had to navigate in

00:52:57.360 - 00:53:13.640

Europe and across the ocean and a lot of places. Was this kind of an advanced navigation school? I don't know if it was advanced or not. Did they get their commissions while they were there?

00:53:14.120 - 00:53:22.400

Yes. Were you ever asked to instruct? Was I what? Asked to instruct in navigation?

00:53:23.540 - 00:53:40.540

No. We were strictly pilots, and we had to fly. If you were flying cadets on a training mission, you had to fly the compass heading and the altitude and the airspeed that they told you.

00:53:42.080 - 00:54:12.280

And then they would do their wind drift problems and all of this. And we were really never allowed to fly as first pilot, because they considered that as combat training for the pilots because they had to keep their heading within two or three degrees and their altitude within just a little bit.

00:54:14.520 - 00:54:34.040

But we could go copilot as often as we wanted. On their graduation flights, they had to be a thousand miles at least. And a pilot usually chose where they went, and we would fly out. And we could go co-pilot.

00:54:34.430 - 00:54:50.920

Of course, co-pilot time wasn't near as valuable as first pilot. But if they were going to go somewhere where you wanted to go, you would just go ahead and go. My mother was in California at the time, and so I would go out to—we would fly out on

00:54:50.920 - 00:55:13.200

this graduation flight by the sun on Friday, and you would come back and they would navigate by the stars on Sunday. And so you had a nice little visit there, and I went out several times like that. EC: Where did you live at Honda?

00:55:14.200 - 00:55:28.640

FG: In the barracks on the field. EC: Were they nurses' quarters? I think they were civilian quarters. There were nurses' quarters other places on the field.

00:55:30.360 - 00:55:50.740

Each one of these rooms had two wasps with a partition that didn't go to the ceiling or didn't go to the floor between the two bunks, and each one had a bath, so that was an improvement over Sweetwater. And we had a maid that came in and did our ironing.

00:55:53.160 - 00:56:07.540

Didn't sense a shirt. And where did you eat? Well we could eat at the Officer's Club or we could eat at any of the mess halls. Tell me about your social life at Honda.

00:56:10.160 - 00:56:37.260

We'd go into the, what we called the Greasy Spoon restaurant or cafe in Hondo, and not very many people had cars, so you didn't go to San Antonio very often unless you could find a date with a car and a gasoline ration that didn't mind taking you. Did you ever find one of those?

00:56:37.640 - 00:56:47.140

Oh, yeah. Tell me about that, Maxine. I can't remember San Antonio so much, but I can remember going to New Braunfels and floating down that river.

00:56:48.160 - 00:57:02.780

That was a lot of fun. I'd like to do that again. You'd walk up with an inner tube as far as you wanted to, and then you'd get into this river and float back down, and at the end there was some little falls you had to go

00:57:02.860 - 00:57:16.060

through. It's fun. Do you remember one, somebody special that you did that with? Well, probably, but I can't remember his name.

00:57:16.280 - 00:57:27.780

I think you're not trying. And we went to the movie on the base. They always had good movies on the base. You could always go to the movie and go eat at the Officer's Club, and that kept us pretty

00:57:27.980 - 00:57:44.840

busy. Then when it was bad weather, we had to go to the flight line, the ready room at the Alton flight line and stay there. And they played two games, poker and chess.

00:57:45.580 - 00:57:54.920

When I first went there, I didn't know how to play either one, so I decided I'd play poker. And they had a limit, a field limit. I don't remember what it was.

00:57:54.960 - 00:58:09.360

It wasn't very much. But I still lost my money, so I decided I'd learn to play chess. So that's what they did in the ready room. Were you allowed to date the cadets?

00:58:09.980 - 00:58:22.220

Or was it mostly instructors? Well, I don't guess it was against the rules, but I don't think a WASP would dare just date a cadet. You know, there's all these officers around.

00:58:22.500 - 00:58:44.020

Why date a cadet? Although they were eventually officers. I don't remember anybody that being a cadet, I suppose. Vaxen, tell me about the first time you went home with your uniform on.

00:58:44.300 - 00:58:58.080

What did that feel like? Well, I was kind of proud, but I don't think people paid much attention to it. I can't remember. Did your hometown newspaper do anything?

00:58:58.620 - 00:59:12.620

Not a thing. Not one thing. While you were at Hondo, did you meet anybody real special? No, not really.

00:59:13.680 - 00:59:34.000

Not really. While you were there, can you tell me the first time that you heard that the WASP might be deactivated, how you felt about that? I heard it about two months before they were deactivated, and I started writing every aviation

00:59:34.380 - 00:59:56.540

address I could find to see if I could get a job. And I had two favorable replies. One was way up in Michigan, I think, and the other one was in Alice, Texas. And so I got a proficiency flight and flew to Alice, Texas.

00:59:58.760 - 01:00:23.140

And of course it was a twin-engine AT-7, which was a nice airplane. And the airport manager was very impressed with that, I think. He said that I could come and I didn't have an instructor's rating. I came out of the WASP with a commercial multi-engine rating, but no instructor's rating.

01:00:23.160 - 01:00:34.800

He said I could work on my instructor's rating in ALICE. And so I came in. I could instruct, but I couldn't charge. So I did a little instructing for him.

01:00:37.440 - 01:00:53.100

And then I was offered a job as a company pilot in a little company in a little airplane, and I took it. I got another wasp to come down and take my place. This other wasp and I lived together.

01:00:54.580 - 01:01:06.660

We had a duplex. Tell me about when— Was she still in the war transport or the relief tube story? Tell me about the relief tube story.

01:01:07.940 - 01:01:26.580

Well, that's on one of those graduation flights that were a thousand miles, and they six to eight hours, depending on the wind. I would prepare a long time ahead, and I would not have anything to drink for about a day ahead.

01:01:32.160 - 01:01:48.740

Those airplanes were not designed for women. They were just designed for men, and each seat had a relief tube that emptied into the atmosphere. In the middle of the C-60, which we were flying, there was a toilet right in the middle with

01:01:48.760 - 01:02:04.320

no curtain around it. This was the toilet. So I knew that I was going to have a little trouble, so I just did not do that. So the pilot, one trip, the pilot excused himself and shut the door to the back cabin.

01:02:05.440 - 01:02:21.000

He came back and he did that a couple of times. The last time he said, "Are you human?" Anyway, I don't know how the other WASPs managed. I don't think we ever talked about it.

01:02:23.280 - 01:02:30.520

You know, how they managed that. Maybe they just had them hide their eyes. I don't know. But I managed okay.

01:02:32.350 - 01:02:45.900

The day that you were deactivated, tell me about that particular day. I can't remember too much about that. We had to turn in our equipment. Was there a parade?

01:02:46.880 - 01:02:50.920

What? A parade? Oh, no. They didn't recognize us a bit.

01:02:52.280 - 01:03:01.200

Not at Hondo. All I can remember is just going out the gate. Did you keep some of your uniforms? Yeah.

01:03:01.880 - 01:03:16.780

keep our uniforms because we'd worn them. And I still have mine, most of them. I wore the shirts out and I wore the slacks out and I wore the shoes out, but I have everything else.

01:03:19.820 - 01:03:34.800

Did the commanding officer do anything special at all? I can't remember a thing. Not in Hondo. They did take our picture out by an airplane.

01:03:37.160 - 01:03:43.940

All of us. Is it in Bird's book? Granger's book? I don't know if it is or not.

01:03:46.780 - 01:03:53.600

So how did you get to Alice from Honda? Well, I got this job. Did you have a car? No.

01:03:54.740 - 01:04:04.280

I don't know how I got here. When you came to Alice, did you know anybody? No, I didn't. Not at that time.

01:04:05.020 - 01:04:09.100

Okay. So you started working at the airport? Uh-huh. Okay.

01:04:09.600 - 01:04:26.020

Did it have runways? I mean, concrete runways? Yes, it was an auxiliary Navy landing field, so we had nice concrete runways. And we still--Alice Airport is still where that was.

01:04:27.680 - 01:04:39.100

Did you go home between the time you left Hondo and came to Alice? Did you have some vacation time in there? I think so. Yeah, I think so.

01:04:40.680 - 01:04:58.860

So when you came to Alice, you and a friend got an apartment? Well she didn't come right away. I stayed in a private home. And at first I stayed in the hotel, but my little savings was dwindling, so I found a

01:04:58.940 - 01:05:18.220

private home to live in. And the WASP didn't come until I got the other job, and I called her and see if she wanted to come down here, and so she did. Are those people still in Alice that you lived in the private home with?

01:05:19.580 - 01:05:33.720

No, they're dead. They're deceased. Once you got to Alice, what did you do for entertainment? I can't remember.

01:05:36.060 - 01:05:49.960

I don't think much. Not a whole lot here even yet. Once your friend came, then you had an apartment together? Yes.

01:05:50.400 - 01:06:08.960

And what did you, what was your job at that point? Well, I had this little company job and I just flew wherever the boss wanted to go. And what kind of airplane was this? Well he had a little bitty one at first, and I think it was an Aronca, and then he got

01:06:09.020 - 01:06:39.200

an AT-17, like I had flown, and that was the other one. And when you would fly? covered. Would you spend the night in different places? Yeah, I'd stay in a hotel room. How long did you do this? I think about until I married and I think that was about maybe

01:06:39.320 - 01:06:59.080

a year and a half. End of the tape? End of the tape. Now you've done enough, haven't I'm not rolling on that. I'm not taping. She didn't put that on tape.

01:06:59.540 - 01:07:06.140

Is it going now? It's on bars. It's on color bars right now. It's on what? It's on color bars.

01:07:07.640 - 01:07:33.480

It's not recording. It looks like this right now. Oh, see I can't see that. As far as I know that's okay. Okay. Then I guess the next logical thing for me to bring up is you must have met somebody special in Alice.

01:07:34.180 - 01:07:54.320

I met my husband here. We dated about a year or a little more, and then we married. How did you meet him? Well, he was working as a petroleum engineer for an oil company here who was drilling some

01:07:54.620 - 01:08:11.260

wells. At that, the first company job I had, there were two companies on this little airplane. One of them was the other one was a drilling contractor, and he invited Lucian to come meet his pilot.

01:08:12.900 - 01:08:30.440

And so, he came and met me, and we started dating after that. Is he from Alice? No, he's from Greenwood, Louisiana. And where did you go on dates in Alice?

01:08:32.280 - 01:08:43.680

I can't remember. I guess, let's see, I suppose there were some little night spots around. There was one over in San Diego we'd go to once in a while. We went to a lot of movies.

01:08:47.780 - 01:09:10.420

What attracted you to him? Well, I don't know. He was the only one around. In the meantime, was your roommate dating someone?

01:09:11.500 - 01:09:22.120

Yeah, she was. She had some. But she didn't marry him either. Tell me about dating your husband.

01:09:22.500 - 01:09:33.920

Did you meet his family while you were dating him? No, I didn't. They were 400 miles away. And then we married here and I went up there and met him afterwards.

01:09:35.400 - 01:09:44.940

So they-- Had he met your mother before you married? I don't believe he had met her either. We just met and married on our own.

01:09:46.360 - 01:09:54.580

Where did you get married? and Alice, Presbyterian Church. Did you have a formal wedding? Did you--

01:09:54.580 - 01:10:25.720

Well, yeah, it was kind of semi-formal. I had a wedding gown, and I had a wasp as my bridesmaid, and Anna White, and she was Anna Hopkins at the time. And your two WASPs that you were really close to at Avenger, were they here for your wedding?

01:10:26.100 - 01:10:49.200

No, they were not. I doubt that I, I probably didn't even notify them, I don't know. Another wasp that was at Hondo came down on the bus from Houston. Okay. I want to back up just a minute and ask you, at Hondo, when you were going to be disbanded,

01:10:49.600 - 01:11:06.540

did the air base offer you any kind of employment? Do you remember? They didn't offer any that I know of. Okay. Okay, once you got married? I don't think it occurred to me to apply.

01:11:09.000 - 01:11:20.420

Was that a favorite place of yours to live? Hondo? Not exactly. I can't imagine living in Hondo if you're not on the base.

01:11:21.560 - 01:11:40.340

You had the movie on the base, and you had the Officer's Club on the base, and a good mess hall if you wanted to go there. So I can't imagine what Hondo was like itself. It was probably pretty good.

01:11:41.700 - 01:12:01.280

Once you got married, did you keep flying? I didn't keep flying at the job I had. And I kept flying just little tiny flights whenever I could find one until I got pregnant. And then I didn't fly anymore for about twenty years.

01:12:03.140 - 01:12:14.480

In all of your flying, what is your favorite airplane? Beach Baron. Is that a twenty-engine? Yeah, it is.

01:12:14.560 - 01:12:29.600

And my husband got me one, bought a new one. And it isn't a really neat airplane. It still is. But the airplanes, when the oil glint hit in the '80s, the airplane had to go.

01:12:30.800 - 01:12:46.760

And so I haven't flown since then. Besides, I was getting hard of hearing and didn't really realize it at the time. But I believe that that was happening then because I'd have to tell the center, "Talk slower."

01:12:46.800 - 01:12:56.320

And now I realize that that's probably what was happening. I was getting there. But I always passed my physical. So.

01:12:57.820 - 01:13:16.140

But I wouldn't dare fly now. My hearing is so bad. Once you got married, where did you live? We lived in Alice, and three years in Fowl Furious, and then back to Alice. And that's all the only places we've ever lived.

01:13:18.320 - 01:13:36.580

And did he keep at the same job? Was he with the company? He went into business for himself after, oh, a year or two. And he had an all-fill workover rig.

01:13:37.640 - 01:13:49.740

And then he got drilling rigs, and he was in the oil drilling business until three years ago when he sold his business. Did you help him in that business? No, I didn't.

01:13:51.300 - 01:14:11.880

Do you know what oil drilling is? Oh, yes. I listened to it all these years, but I didn't actually help in the business. Once you married and once you--how long was it before you had a child?

01:14:12.840 - 01:14:27.540

I think it's about three years. And how did that change your life? I could not run around with him everywhere he went after that. I had to take care of the baby.

01:14:30.290 - 01:14:46.480

As your children were growing up, where did you spend vacations with them? Well, we loved to go to Garner Park. My husband could not always go, but we usually went. That was a fun place.

01:14:47.000 - 01:14:59.440

If you remember, that's where I looked down on when I was flying from Hondo. I'd look down on Garner Park. So it looked fun from the air, and so I went on up there. And it was a lot of fun.

01:14:59.560 - 01:15:20.460

The water was clear, and it wasn't dangerous for little kids. And they had horses and, you know, a whole bunch of stuff. Entertained them. Of course, we went to California quite frequently to see my mother, and occasionally to Missouri

01:15:22.460 - 01:15:32.640

to see my father. Did you remain close with him? With whom? Your father.

01:15:33.400 - 01:15:56.420

Yes, I did. When you were taking vacations, was it a--when your husband couldn't go, did you take other children? Oh, I had plenty. Three's enough. I think--yes, I did take a niece to California one time.

01:15:59.420 - 01:16:26.440

And she was sixteen. I thought she might be a good babysitter, but it didn't work out Why did you babysit her? I tried to keep up with her. As your children were growing up, what did you encourage them to do?

01:16:29.620 - 01:16:52.940

I don't know that I encouraged them to do anything except what they wanted to do. I didn't encourage them to be a pilot. In fact, the two older ones, they'd never seen me fly. They decided that they were going to go out and take flying lessons.

01:16:54.520 - 01:17:12.980

So they did, and I couldn't stand it, so I just secretly got my physical and went out there and took lessons, too, and I soloed before they did. That was the absolute worst solo I've ever had in my life. Had the same instructor that they had.

01:17:16.480 - 01:17:34.960

When he crawled out of the airplane, I took off, and I got up in the air, and I says, "What am I doing up here? And I've got these three kids, and I never could land these little airplanes?" And I said, "What am I doing here?"

01:17:34.980 - 01:17:52.820

So anyway, I came down, and I had one approach and about fifteen landings. I just grasshoppered down the end of the runway. So the instructor motioned for me to give it the throttle, so I did. And by then it was okay the second time.

01:17:53.980 - 01:18:09.740

It was no big deal then. I thought, "My word, what am I doing up here?" But that got me started. So then my husband bought a fourth of an airplane, and we had that for a while.

01:18:10.220 - 01:18:31.600

That didn't work out because the other three pilots were Ben and they had it all the time, and I didn't get very much chance. So sometime along in there, my daughter was in Galveston finishing up physical therapy school and she wanted me to come up for a party.

01:18:33.180 - 01:18:52.200

So I decided I was going to fly up there, so I flew. My first cross country in I don't know how long, twenty years or so I guess. So the compass hadn't been swung in that airplane for so long, and I kept trying to find my way, and I couldn't.

01:18:52.300 - 01:19:01.480

So finally I said, "Well, I'll just take up a ninety-degree heading, and I'll hit the course." That took me straight to Galveston. It was so far off.

01:19:02.480 - 01:19:11.880

But Mary Ann was so proud of me, and she was telling all of her friends, "My mother flew to Galveston." Well, they didn't know that I'd flown my own airplane. Nobody up there was impressed at all.

01:19:12.740 - 01:19:30.640

They just thought I'd taken an airline up there. But anyway, Mary Ann was very proud of me. But they never did get their license. In fact, when Mary Ann was here, she came home one day after a solo and she said, "Mama,

01:19:30.840 - 01:19:42.940

what did I do wrong?" I said, "I don't know. What did you do?" "Well, they used to let the farmer mow the grass, mow the hay."

01:19:44.640 - 01:19:56.900

I'm going to pause. I'll pause so you can answer. What were you flying? This is when your daughter was in physical therapy school and you flew to Galveston. I can't remember what kind of airplane it was.

01:19:57.260 - 01:20:12.980

Probably an Aronica. I don't remember. It might have been a Cessna. I think it was a four-place Cessna. What would that be? 172? 182? I don't know. I never owned an airplane. [Laughs] Okay.

01:20:14.460 - 01:20:30.460

But you did make it back to Alice. Oh yeah. By then I could compensate, you know, 30 degree error on the compass. When you would go out to that airport to fly your own airplane, what kind of comments would you get?

01:20:30.800 - 01:20:53.320

What kind of reception would you get from the men who work around those airplanes? Well, since I owned it, and my husband built a fixed-base operation out there, I never did hear any negative remarks. If they made them, they didn't make them to me.

01:20:56.580 - 01:21:13.680

So I just had affirmative reception. EC: When you were flying at Hondo, did you ever get any negative reactions from the male pilots or--? FG: No, not really.

01:21:14.900 - 01:21:35.520

I think they accepted us fine. The one major that I mentioned that thought we ought to be home was not a pilot. He was a non-flying officer. And the second one was not a pilot also that was in charge of us.

01:21:38.700 - 01:21:48.180

I do not know what they were supposed to be responsible for us. I do not know what for. When you were going out with crew chiefs, did you ever have a crew chief that hesitated to fly with you?

01:21:48.380 - 01:22:16.180

No, they all seemed to be willing to go. Each crew chief was very proud of his airplane and proud of the maintenance that he was responsible for, and I found the crew chiefs to be very responsible. In fact, I was not afraid to go in the airplane that they fixed, that they were responsible

01:22:16.180 - 01:22:38.560

before. So, and they weren't afraid of me either. So, we made a good team. While your children were growing up, Maxine, did you participate in any kind of activity here in Alice? Any clubs or any volunteer work or school? Well when they were growing up, I think I belonged to a bridge club and of course I

01:22:38.420 - 01:22:53.580

I belonged to church and I belonged to a study club. I can't remember what else. I seemed to be busy all the time. I guess just keeping three kids would keep you pretty busy.

01:22:54.270 - 01:23:03.720

Were you involved in their schools in any way? Oh yes. I always belonged to their PTA. I went to most of the meetings.

01:23:07.820 - 01:23:19.800

In your clubs that you belong to, are these old friends of yours, do you still have those same friends? Have you kept the same friends through the years? Well, pretty much.

01:23:19.880 - 01:23:38.940

Some of them have passed on and some have moved away, but the ones that have moved away were still friends. And the ones that are here were still friends. your children and you're bringing those children up, how involved were they with church activities?

01:23:40.270 - 01:23:58.360

Well, they always participated in the youth program and Sunday school. Could you tell me again about turning from a Baptist to a Presbyterian? [Laughter] You want this on the tape.

01:23:58.380 - 01:24:15.060

I want this on the tape. I'm going to show this to my friend who's a Presbyterian minister. Okay. Well, the only thing I can say is that I stayed with a woman who was a Presbyterian in her,

01:24:16.640 - 01:24:38.720

I stayed with her in her house. I roomed with her, roomed in her house. And she was, she asked me to go to the Presbyterian church, and I went and got acquainted. And at that time, there was a young circle, young women's circle, and it was so much fun.

01:24:40.220 - 01:25:09.660

And I think that circle was one of the reasons that I stayed in Presbyterian, because they had a whole bunch of nice young women that I enjoyed being with. When you joined the Presbyterian Church, were you sprinkled or immersed? They accepted the--I was immersed as a child, and they accepted that.

01:25:10.280 - 01:25:24.420

I think my husband was sprinkled, and they accepted that. While you were at Sweetwater, were there any opportunities for you to go into Sweetwater to church? Do you remember?

01:25:24.490 - 01:25:42.220

I think there were, but I did not take advantage of them. When your children were in high school, what were they involved in that you were interested in? Well, they were always involved in a lot of activities.

01:25:47.460 - 01:26:13.540

Two of them were presidents of their class, and they were, all three of them were cheerleaders. And it seems like they were just doing everything there was down there to do. Did you accompany them to football games and things when they would go out of town? Yes, we did.

01:26:15.280 - 01:26:32.080

Most of the time when they would go out of town, well, we would too. Of course, they would go on the school bus, and we would drive. And a lot of times at that time, Alice was playing teams in the Valley, so that was a pretty long drive.

01:26:33.990 - 01:26:47.400

I don't think they're going to, I don't believe they do. They haven't done that for quite a while. Find enough around here. Tell me about how you felt when your first child went off to school.

01:26:48.600 - 01:27:06.560

Oh, I couldn't imagine. I really couldn't imagine. And when the last one went off, that was really something to have a completely empty nest. But you just learn to adjust.

01:27:08.820 - 01:27:25.080

Then did you find other activities keep you busy, busier? I guess I did. I don't remember specifically hunting anything. I know you have been involved with the USO.

01:27:25.450 - 01:27:51.140

Do you want to tell us about when you first became involved? Why did you become involved with the USO? Well, I became involved when President Carter was President. The USO board, and this was the world board, it is made up of different types of members.

01:27:51.540 - 01:28:14.660

The President has six slots on that board to fill, or did at that time. They were six-year appointments. Floyd Benson was a Senator at the time, and he put my name up for nomination, and President Carter nominated me for a member.

01:28:15.740 - 01:28:36.900

And so that was a very interesting experience because I had to go to Washington or wherever they had their meetings. And I became very interested in the USO. And they had a USO over here at the Naval Air Station in Corpus, and I eventually joined

01:28:37.000 - 01:28:53.480

that. I had to rotate off the world board. I became more active over here. And so I've been active over here many years, and I love it.

01:28:53.620 - 01:29:19.160

I like the Navy people, and it's a wonderful experience. We have two now over there. We have mine warfare command on one side of the bay and the naval air station on the other. And so the USO is really bigger on the mine warfare command side than the Naval Air Station,

01:29:19.580 - 01:29:39.440

because there are more sailors that need the USO. Want to pause for the cameo appearance here? to the USO board meetings and you meet them there. And, uh, but if they're in town they usually go.

01:29:39.980 - 01:29:57.000

Tell me what was the purpose of the World Board for the USO? What did you do? Well, the World Board kind of governed overseas and they were also, when I was in it, they did updates for the ones over here

01:29:57.000 - 01:30:18.340

and renewal of their certificates. And, of course, they had to meet certain criteria to do that. And they regulated overseas almost entirely. Now, the ones over here, they usually finance themselves

01:30:20.080 - 01:30:32.120

and they have very little help from World Board, I don't think. At least they didn't used to. Did the President appoint each member of that board? No.

01:30:32.580 - 01:30:50.840

No. He only had six slots and there were, I can't remember how many USO board members there were but considerably more than that. They were from all over and maybe some military businessmen.

01:30:51.240 - 01:31:02.600

And would your meetings always be in Washington? No. Where else did you meet? Well, sometimes we went to different places and had our board meetings.

01:31:03.920 - 01:31:20.340

And we've even been overseas. I've gone overseas on three trips, I believe. And went to Italy and Germany twice, maybe just two, and Iceland. It's very interesting.

01:31:22.120 - 01:31:39.460

Iceland, USO, it's very interesting. There's not a whole lot to do there in Keflavik. I believe that's the way you pronounce that. So the USO is very important.

01:31:40.920 - 01:31:48.700

How did you go? Did you go on military airplanes? How did you get there? No, we went on commercial flights.

01:31:48.840 - 01:32:06.840

I cannot remember the name that we went to, but it went on now. That we went to Iceland, you meant? I kind of think it was an Icelandic airplane of some sort. On this board, were they all Americans, or did you have members from—

01:32:08.720 - 01:32:37.200

Let's see, when I was on, there was a woman from Germany, and I can't remember if there were, you know, if there were very many others or not, but they, I remember that one from Germany. And once you went off that, Maxine, rotated off and became a member of the board at Corpus,

01:32:37.860 - 01:32:52.580

how often now do you have meetings? The one in Corpus meets every month. The World Board didn't meet that often. I can't remember now, but I think it was about four times a year or something like that.

01:32:53.940 - 01:33:02.800

I don't remember. And how are the members on the board at Corpus appointed? Do you know? Well, they're kind of chosen within the board.

01:33:05.360 - 01:33:15.260

Somebody will say, "I'd like to propose a name." And that's how we get them. We have a really good board. And do you have a certain term limit?

01:33:16.300 - 01:33:30.220

You have to rotate off, I think, after seven years, and then you can come back on if the board votes you on, which I don't think the board ever refuses if somebody wants back on. Right.

01:33:31.120 - 01:33:53.180

In addition to that, what other boards are you on? Well I was on Ronald McDonald's board, but I'm off of that, and I just run out of time. I don't think I'm on any other important boards. How about what you do for the church?

01:33:54.040 - 01:34:07.920

Well I'm not doing very much right now. I'm an elder, but I'm inactive at this point. I'm not on the active board. Once an elder, always an elder.

01:34:08.920 - 01:34:29.700

Wow. Of all the things that you have done, other than have your children, what do you think is the most important thing that you have done in all your life? Well, not counting family, huh?

01:34:30.060 - 01:34:53.420

It's quite a list you have to pull. Well, I think that probably the most important is taking groups to the Institute of Basic Life Principles, and it's a Bill Gothard enterprise, and I've taken groups to -- you have to stay a whole week. I've taken groups to San Antonio for about twenty years, I think.

01:34:54.640 - 01:35:06.080

I enjoy that. What are those groups made up of? Just anybody I can find that will go. When you commit to go someplace with somebody you don't know very well, it's hard to get

01:35:06.120 - 01:35:17.160

them to go. Once they go, they have a good time. But it's very difficult. You know, I've had people from my church, and when we had our drilling company, well,

01:35:17.940 - 01:35:37.580

I persuaded some of them to go and then when we'd have our Christmas lunch and I'd have them stand up and tell what a good time they had so I could persuade some more to go. And I always wanted to have a Christian company. That was my object in a Christian family.

01:35:39.580 - 01:36:17.900

But this year is the first year that San Antonio hasn't had one of those seminars that I can remember. And how long did the seminar last? A week? It's geared for people who work, so it's at night from 7 to 10 and all day Friday if you can get off and all day Saturday. And what did it consist of? How to live, how to live scripturally. It's very good. Wow. And

01:36:17.900 - 01:36:29.140

and from all the walks of life. Yeah. Is there anybody I can rope into it? It almost leaves me speechless.

01:36:29.380 - 01:36:35.840

I do not know where to go from there. That is okay. We can end it. That is a marvelous thing.

01:36:37.980 - 01:36:57.420

Now I wanted to ask you, what do you think is the legacy of the WASP? Well, Legacy, what do you mean? What's going to happen to us? What will they be remembered as?

01:36:58.220 - 01:37:19.820

I think they'll be remembered as the first women to fly military aircraft. As far as I know, that's it. What do you hope your legacy will be? I don't know, I don't have a legacy.

01:37:22.600 - 01:37:40.800

You have one, haven't you? I think your seminar's through me. Well, let me pause. [Unintelligible]

01:37:42.760 - 01:38:01.600

But anyway. As you look back over your life, what is the most difficult thing that you overcame? I don't believe I can answer that. What did you say?

01:38:01.790 - 01:38:07.300

She said second most. Second most? No, second most difficult. Oh.

01:38:09.960 - 01:38:27.540

But how did she overcome whatever difficulty? Yeah, how did you overcome difficulties that you might have had along the way? I've gone through all kinds of things. I've gone through depressions and...

01:38:27.920 - 01:38:43.560

That's what I mean. How did you get through times when you felt like you might not be able to get through? Because we've all... Well, I think the Christian religion and believing in Jesus Christ helped me more than anything.

01:38:45.400 - 01:39:10.220

He told us we were going to have trouble, and we--I sure have. But anyway, he said we could overcome it. >> Yeah, and as I look, we've overcome. What would you like in twenty-five years or fifty years when children watch you and have

01:39:10.260 - 01:39:40.520

listened to what you've had to say? What do you hope they will gain? How do you hope maybe they will be benefited in some way by your life? Well, I hope they'll be inspired to be strong in spirit and be able to stand alone.

01:39:43.480 - 01:40:03.000

God. That's going to become, it's difficult now, but I think it's going to become more difficult. I just want my grandchildren to be mighty in spirit, mighty in spirit, and to be able to stand alone.

01:40:05.680 - 01:40:17.740

Is there anything that you would like included in this that I have left out that I haven't asked you? I think you've thought of everything. You've thought a lot more than I have.

01:40:19.960 - 01:40:29.760

But anything at all that you would like to say to the future? No. I think that's all I've said. Thank you very much.

01:40:29.860 - 01:40:41.600

You're welcome. Favorite word? Nancy wants me to ask you your favorite word. I have no idea. My favorite word? You've asked me so many things I hadn't ever thought about before.

01:40:42.520 - 01:40:53.240

Pick one. I don't know what my favorite word is. Okay. Alright. Yeah. Okay. I can stop. Okay. I'm sure there's a lot of people.

01:40:53.240 - 01:41:06.080

What have other people said their favorite word was? Do you know what Marian Hutchinson said? About blinking an eye? Well, I thought of that, but I already had kind of said that.

01:41:06.240 - 01:41:09.900

Yes, you had. Yes, you had. And that was beautiful. And Sister Teresa said love.

01:41:13.800 - 01:41:23.500

She was living in the 26's. They were kind of mixed. She told Targets. And I'm so happy to see you.

01:41:23.580 - 01:41:28.600

Hi there. Hi. Come on around. We've got a real surprise today.

01:41:31.580 - 01:42:10.640

Archie and his daughter, granddaughter Julie, Kaylee, are here. He's the chairman of Grace Air. This is Mr. Fulanoa. He owns this hangar and is allowing us to use it. We're so grateful. And this is his wife, Maxine. She flew AT-7s and C-60s in World War II. And this is Dean, Harry. She's from Waco. She flew B-26s in World War II.

01:42:10.740 - 01:42:16.100

And they wanted to take a moment just to talk to you. No, we didn't want to! Yeah, you did! (laughter)

01:42:16.820 - 01:42:26.000

He conned us! Oh wow! Well, in the first place, when you said "Baptist" that was the magic word for me.

01:42:26.720 - 01:42:32.200

(laughter) Of course, we've got a Presbyterian, but that's okay. (laughter) Amen!

01:42:33.400 - 01:42:41.300

I'm a Presbyterian. Sit down! This really factors somebody over past the collection point. (laughter)

01:42:41.380 - 01:43:02.860

No matter what, we all need Jesus Christ. Wow, this is wonderful. I don't really know, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to tell you. Except I know that when I first started learning to fly, I was a teenager, or I was just 19.

01:43:03.940 - 01:43:24.000

Anyway, this was before, right when World War II started. And when I first started taking flying lessons, I was the only girl in my town that flew. And I asked my instructor one day if he thought I'd ever be a pilot. And he said, "One day you will know. Something will happen and you will know whether or not you will ever make a pilot."

01:43:24.140 - 01:43:46.480

So I thought, "Okay." So I kept flying and one day he told me it was time to solo. So he said he got out and I was flying in a Piper Cub, which has a front seat and a back seat. And he got out and he said, "Okay, take it around." And then when you land, he said, "Watch me and I'll tell you whether or not you take off again."

01:43:46.940 - 01:44:07.140

So I did. I took it up, came around and made a pretty decent landing. And he waved me off. And as I took off again, in the Piper Cub, I don't know if any of you are flyers, but we would get up to maybe 500 feet with our throttle wide open

01:44:07.140 - 01:44:26.160

off because you would be almost out of power. You'd level off and then you would pull your throttle back and then you would gently climb on up to your altitude. Well that day as I leveled off on this solo flight I started to push forward on that joystick and it came off in my hand.

01:44:26.400 - 01:44:45.360

Whoa! That's not good! That's not good! And my first thought was that he did it on purpose. But then I realized as I was about to crash that he hadn't. And I had on seatbelt. I quickly got it off and I reached over the front seat

01:44:45.400 - 01:45:01.060

and with the tips of my fingers I pushed forward on that front stick enough that I didn't stall out. He said as he stood on the ground he swore if I ever got down, I'd never fly again, because he didn't know what was happening. I was lucky, but I knew that wasn't luck.

01:45:01.130 - 01:45:08.180

>> Amen. >> I knew who was flying that airplane. >> Glory be to God. >> And then on, that's my story, glory be to God.

01:45:08.360 - 01:45:19.220

>> [APPLAUSE] >> Well, that's a good one. >> [APPLAUSE] >> Back when we were late, I used to own a '46 J3. >> Did you really?

01:45:19.660 - 01:45:29.100

It was a J3 I was in. >> Yeah. >> You know where that red sign is? I know how hard it would be to get my little self over that seat. I tried later and I couldn't get over it.

01:45:30.020 - 01:45:44.000

Amazing what you do in your chair. Well, you're amazing when you have help. Amen. Well, let's take a moment and let's just praise God for Mr. Foreroy and his guests coming by.

01:45:44.100 - 01:46:20.300

Eric, would you please pray for us? Red and white? Red and white. What time they were all red and white?

01:46:21.860 - 01:46:27.360

These trucks will all go 65, 70 miles an hour. They got huge engines in them. They're all diesel.

01:46:29.560 - 01:46:35.980

Oh really? They can't stop for a half mile. Well... Especially if there's nothing.

01:46:38.020 - 01:46:45.800

I'd say that truck in the center is about... Oh really? Did he know what you had done?

01:46:47.140 - 01:46:56.880

I don't know. When was this made? Do you have any idea? Some reunion I think.

01:46:56.960 - 01:47:02.700

Maybe it might have been in San Diego. Age, see? Uh-huh. Here's the youngest one.

01:47:03.260 - 01:47:11.580

She's now nine, so you know how old that is. Oh, wow. Same bunch of people. Had four grandsons and they thought they were really tough.

01:47:12.000 - 01:47:21.560

(laughing) You ain't all girls. - Some smores, I don't do that anymore. Who are these?

01:47:23.900 - 01:47:30.140

- These are my daughters. Here are my Marianne, Boo, Helen, and Alicia. - Oh wow. - Certainly.

01:47:31.060 - 01:47:44.660

- Yes, you were very. - And blonde. For, oh, when I was honored by the USO. at that ceremony. How neat.

01:47:47.060 - 01:48:00.900

Maybe I better put it down because I'm not real. Well, it's okay. If I can just grab a still off of this at some point. You can put it down. And Captain Strickler also gave me this. And see this is a trigger.

01:48:02.400 - 01:48:29.720

I think. Wow. Well, I don't guess he said. They call it a Stein. It's called a what? Cyclic mug? November 1999 I think I got it in. Maybe October or something. Sometime before he transferred away. He's in Washington now.

01:48:31.560 - 01:48:47.100

Well not. See here's one of the pictures that he takes and they just gripe. I hope you all hear him all right. Hurry up! Hurry up! Well I have a hard time. I have it on my calendar, but I have to... I'm three year old now.

01:48:48.680 - 01:49:02.780

Well Nancy, I'm sorry you're not 23. And he's the one that's in San Marcos and I told you his. I don't think I... 52, three years old. I designed this dairy and built it on a shelf when Alice Texas and I pushed it on that rig for a long time.

01:49:03.040 - 01:49:31.040

The last rig we bought was this rig. This is a drilling machine. This now belongs to Gray Wolf. And that particular rig is, that rig cost us 8.6 million when we christened it about. How different is this rig from this one? A lot of difference. A lot of electronic. Yeah, we want to drill shallow and we want to drill deep.

01:49:31.100 - 01:49:37.740

We're down at Beaumont in DuPont's plant drilling disposal. [phone rings] Wow. Wow.

01:49:39.220 - 01:49:45.680

Interesting piece over here. Here's a... Wait a minute, she's taking a picture. That's okay. That's alright.

01:49:47.580 - 01:49:57.080

That these two men are good friends of mine. I've known them both a long time. I would never have ever dreamed this guy and this guy would be one of the others that would be the president of this nation.

01:49:57.380 - 01:50:02.860

[laughs] Isn't that gonna be something? And they're not here for any reason. And you're friends with both of them?

01:50:02.860 - 01:50:11.040

Yes I am. This is my grandson. Oh, really? Well that's that blonde. And here I am.

01:50:12.400 - 01:50:19.600

And here's Al. His mother was my dinner partner in Dallas at a gathering about 20 years ago.

01:50:20.480 - 01:50:29.160

And she's a lawyer. She's a great gal. And I've seen this, like many of these people, we differ on,

01:50:29.260 - 01:50:37.360

but anyway, here's old W, and here's with my son-in-law, here's Maxine, here I am, this is out the park. - I met some. - And so, this is my mother.

01:50:38.320 - 01:50:48.720

- Wow. - Now of interest, this is my father, who died in 1918, I was born 1919. - Oh, okay.

01:50:48.760 - 01:50:54.180

- That was a tough time for her. - Yeah. - She had four girls. - She had four babies.

01:50:54.460 - 01:51:01.300

- And number five is a boy. - Here's Maxine. Here's Lord Benson. - I think that's sweet.

01:51:01.320 - 01:51:10.900

- I liked him. - Lord had a stroke, he's not in good shape. Here I am. Here, this is candidate Mark White.

01:51:11.000 - 01:51:17.400

This is not Governor Mark White. He was just a wannabe. - Good old Baylor boy. - Here I am.

01:51:20.420 - 01:51:40.240

And this is my seven, this man's alive. And over here, the only thing about this picture that's expensive is the frame. Is that your class in school? Yeah, I'm so proud of it.

01:51:41.120 - 01:51:50.920

These are poor whites. My dad has one like that. And I'm so proud of this. Now the thing of interest, and I'm bragging now, that the only thing that cost a lot of

01:51:51.020 - 01:51:58.460

money was this frame. I don't know. It wasn't expensive, but anyway, the I'm in the front row in the center. Here I am right here.

01:51:59.240 - 01:52:10.100

That's what you're proud of. You're many, many years later. Here I am again, front row and center. I got all these other folks at vaccine somewhere else, but not me.

01:52:11.100 - 01:52:29.020

But you teacher, this guy, I'm hoping you've got some like this that I can this guy, this guy, And I overhaul in the old cemetery in our hometown. We don't like a lot of things going on out there, but

01:52:30.040 - 01:52:41.420

90 in 98 we had David Laney. He's a hell of a guy He's a chairs the Highway Commission of the whole state lawyer and here's Dan Morales

01:52:43.080 - 01:52:56.160

And here's George W Bush That Bob Bullock Phillips, Chief Justice, all out there at my park. Richard Raymond, Ann Richards, John Sharp, this is 1991.

01:52:58.820 - 01:53:13.180

Bob Deadman, Gib Lewis, he and his wife split. John Sharp, I talked to. John Sharp and Rick Perry were classmates at A&M. - I don't think you've seen these.

01:53:13.960 - 01:53:22.740

And that's what she looked like. Unless you want long hair. When he didn't have white hair. I'm imitating Ronald Coleman.

01:53:23.140 - 01:53:32.160

The poem "If I Were a King" right here. A friend of mine, his nephew George Parr. You ever hear of George Parr? George Parr, no.

01:53:32.380 - 01:53:38.620

He's the Duke of Duval. George Parr? I've heard of Jack Parr, but not George Parr. No, that's George's nephew.

01:53:39.580 - 01:53:50.240

Very controversial fellow. Here's W. George Parr, you ever hear of Box 13? When they stole the election from LBJ.

01:53:50.760 - 01:54:05.520

Oh yeah. He could have been modern. These pictures are really, really, this used to be the mayor of Denver, Pena. He's a good friend of mine.

01:54:07.220 - 01:54:14.380

Then here's... Here's Jimmy and Roslyn. Jimmy and Roslyn. Here I am. Here's Maxine.

01:54:14.380 - 01:54:23.280

Jimmy's got to see his hand around Maxine's waist there. And I want to tell you, he's standing on a step too. He's so short. Is he really? Oh yeah.

01:54:24.660 - 01:54:34.740

He would come right there. Really? They got a little thing they put down to hurry. ...farm out very near where my other daughter lives outside of Waco.

01:54:35.180 - 01:54:46.920

George Junior. George W. Oh, George W. Uh-huh. Air Force One. You mean after? Yes. When we graduated.

01:54:47.080 - 01:55:03.020

But this was after you graduated because you have on your uniform. Oh, here I have it. Oh, this museum, the new museum at the Dallas State

01:55:03.220 - 01:55:16.320

Fair in Dallas from Baylor. And got a personal tour of it. They took a big, huge building that used to be the Opera House at the State Fair, right inside the main gates on the left-hand side.

01:55:16.480 - 01:55:27.120

It's tremendous. And they thought it would cost $3 million to renovate it, to put this women's museum in there. It has now cost them $30 million.

01:55:27.600 - 01:55:41.860

But when we were there, oh, maybe two months ago, they had raised $27 or $28 million of it. Oh, Maxine, it's going to be fabulous. Nancy got an email from the girl who is doing this.

01:55:42.000 - 01:55:52.160

She has Ramrodded the whole thing. The other day, and, 'cause when we went up, we said, "Can't there be a spot for the wasp?"

01:55:52.160 - 01:56:06.920

And she said, "Yeah, that she would like something anyway." To do a documentary or some film for them, that they would show it in the main auditorium. So, I don't know whether we'll be able to get it done or not.

01:56:08.680 - 01:56:23.860

And a purse, you still got that purse. Still got the purse. Shoes are worn out. What is this Maxine? Is this an 87? That's the one that was at the Naval Air Show and I asked the owner if he'd take my picture.

01:56:24.600 - 01:56:38.220

Oh, that's great. See, when I was in training, we didn't fly twin engines. I did four landings and he said, "Okay, this afternoon we have Three army officers that need to go back and root you're their pilot

01:56:40.340 - 01:56:50.500

Said okay And I was checked out in 20 engine so he He said to me You go. I said great

01:56:51.660 - 01:57:06.580

My family wasn't too happy because we live near Tampa and we was a big between that one - oh I got selected to go down into the USS Corpus Christi See Maxine, why didn't you tell me when we were on the run? We'll take the pictures later.

01:57:06.580 - 01:57:20.680

I was selected by the president of the USO. There were just two of us because we had lunch down there and the table wasn't seated. See now, if you'd told me when the camera was running, then while you were telling it, we could be showing this.

01:57:23.240 - 01:57:48.300

And then they presented me with a plaque on deck. Oh, that's, boy, the Navy is taking care of you. Oh, they just, they were, but you know, I have plenty of friends I think they can get now. What are, what are these? These are all of the submarine pictures. I mean on deck, after the...

01:57:51.480 - 01:58:15.460

But you don't have any young pictures in here when you were a kid? belong in that. Okay. Oh wow. But, uh, I just, I was just so pleased. And here's the gimmick. Program. I may have gotten the plaque. That's the plaque at your office, isn't it?

01:58:16.500 - 01:58:33.260

Is this the plaque from your office? That's okay. That's my favorite. Well, this thing in a... It's now in May, and I said, "Well, ma'am, why didn't you just stay in high school and take some more courses?"

01:58:33.260 - 01:58:40.960

And she said, "Well, ma'am, oh, they don't count." Oh, go on. She's through. ...Philippines for six weeks. Wow.

01:58:41.660 - 01:58:58.140

And he was out of the boondocks kind of being a missionary. Really? Yeah. And then the next year, he felt kind of bad because he didn't go back to Paul Jones because, you know, they liked him. I don't know if they have a wasp uniform. I don't know what they have, but it's underneath the bed at the Air Force Academy.

01:58:58.630 - 01:59:15.360

It finally ended up that she had to take it out to Baylor and Baylor blew it up two feet by three feet and Senate took them. So, anyway. What? I saw Fifi. Christmas. Christmas time. We came back. This year? Uh-huh. Yeah. You've seen that.

01:59:15.400 - 01:59:32.560

There's stores placed there and Yes, I still I could stay when we go we went down to Set one went down to San Antonio to do to interview some wasp We stayed at Randolph because I can do that. Oh, yeah Air Force

01:59:33.880 - 01:59:41.220

Retirees wife then I can see on Air Force bases and it makes it about half price. Oh, yeah, really helps