00:00:02.280 - 00:00:10.380

I didn't give you very good instructions to get here, but you figured it out. We got here. The good instructions got us here. Oh, it got us here. It did. He was worried.

00:00:10.400 - 00:00:21.100

We got here. Now, I apologize, but I've got to clip this little thing on you. We'll come under here, and I'll clip it down so that we don't see it. Oh, don't worry about it.

00:00:21.100 - 00:00:27.980

There's a button here. Are you going to write a book? Well... No, it's going in the computer. It's going in the computers.

00:00:29.000 - 00:00:36.880

I think you ought to write one. My sister is working on a book. Is she? She got real excited after listening to these and she's putting the history of the Wasp

00:00:36.940 - 00:00:54.240

together in a kind of a unique way in a book form. So yeah, there will be—she wants to help us raise money. Well, you know, you'd think that there'd be more of it, but there isn't. We are making Wasp trading cards and we're hoping it—so.

00:00:55.320 - 00:01:03.560

Okay, roll it. Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish. We are interviewing Maureen Orr, who was a WASP, Class 44/4.

00:01:04.400 - 00:01:17.560

We are in Whitehall, Michigan. Today is the 17th of July, 2001. Maureen, if you would just tell us your name and when and where you were born. Maureen Orr: Well, my name is Maureen.

00:01:17.890 - 00:01:28.780

I do not have a middle name. I am married to Jack Orr. Where were you born and when? I was born in Bloomington, Illinois.

00:01:30.300 - 00:01:51.520

Do you want to tell us the date? Well, it was March 18, 1920. Marie, tell me about your mom and dad. My mother and father, my mother was a teacher of piano, and they both lived in Florida.

00:01:51.520 - 00:02:20.420

I mean in Bloomington. My dad was a fireman, but then he went and thought that they had too many friends there, I should not say friends, people that they knew. So they left and he went into Kresge Company, and that is what it has been.

00:02:20.880 - 00:02:36.000

Did you have brothers and sisters? We have three brothers. Two of them are older than I am and one is young. What are your very earliest remembrances of your childhood?

00:02:38.580 - 00:03:07.220

I think at three years old, I remember my oldest brother had TB of spine. He would be gone to Chicago. We lived in Bloomington at that time. So he would be going to—an aunt would come and stay with us.

00:03:08.400 - 00:03:32.080

I always remember well, like a middle kid. He was the boy, and so he and I would have really fun because we drove our aunt crazy. So Mom was not missed. Tell me about your grandparents.

00:03:33.480 - 00:03:45.520

I do not know any of them. They all died. I know I would take it back. My father's father knew him a little bit, but he died shortly.

00:03:46.890 - 00:03:56.360

Kelly: When you were growing up, before you started school, did you live in town or did you live in the country? Reifeldt: Town. Kelly: Lived in town.

00:03:56.890 - 00:04:13.120

Do you remember the games that you played as a small child? Reifeltt: Well, this was not at school. use. We would hide and go seek, except we would have one person and would chase him.

00:04:14.160 - 00:04:30.640

There was a little boy, as I recall, about five years old, and we would really pick on him. We would go hide, and he could never find us. That was Peoria, Illinois.

00:04:30.640 - 00:04:46.940

Living in the north where you had snow, did you learn to ice skate and ski? Oh, sure. In the summer times, as you were growing up, how would you spend summer vacations? Just playing.

00:04:50.480 - 00:04:58.020

Do you remember starting to school? Oh, yes. Went to kindergarten. How did you get there?

00:04:58.090 - 00:05:00.620

Were you close to— Walk. Walk. It was right around the corner.

00:05:00.740 - 00:05:23.920

This was in Peoria at the time. So it just was a walk to school. In elementary school, do you recall any of your teachers? Not until later.

00:05:24.900 - 00:05:46.540

My dad was with Kresge Company, and they moved around quite a bit until he was in charge of everything there in Chicago. So we stayed and lived in Evanston from then on. How old were you when you moved to Evanston?

00:05:46.720 - 00:05:58.180

What grade were you in? Seventh. No, no, no, I take that back, fifth. In your early childhood, describe for me a Christmas at your house.

00:06:05.560 - 00:06:27.300

We had a wonderful time, just lots of it. My oldest brother and I, we always knew what our presents were because we picked them all and picked them all. And then we were upset because we didn't have anything for Christmas.

00:06:30.040 - 00:06:39.900

And my other brother would say, "See, see." Would you have a Christmas tree? Oh sure, Christmas tree. Where would you get the Christmas tree?

00:06:40.420 - 00:06:49.140

Did you buy it or did you go out and get it? We'd buy it or pick them up, whatever we did. Do you recall helping decorate the tree? Oh, certainly.

00:06:49.780 - 00:06:58.660

So it would be up before Christmas? Oh yes. And then how did you, when did you open your presents? Christmas Eve, Christmas morning?

00:06:59.480 - 00:07:24.540

Christmas morning, those that we hadn't already found. And then what was Christmas dinner like? It wouldn't be Turkey, but we played more than we— Kelly: Would you have relatives that came for Christmas, or was it just your family?

00:07:24.540 - 00:07:50.400

Martin: Just our family. Kelly: As you were growing up, who were your role models? Martin: Well, I really can't name it. When I was young, or a little bit older, this lady—I can't think of her name—she was

00:07:53.380 - 00:08:10.880

teaching on drama. Have you ever heard of children's— She was in charge of that. She was the one that made it up.

00:08:14.020 - 00:08:21.620

That was in college. Kelly: In college. Okay. In junior high school, for example, what was your favorite subject?

00:08:23.140 - 00:08:31.140

Or in high school? Litz: Probably art. I won't say art. I'll say drama.

00:08:32.540 - 00:08:45.720

And what were your ambitions? Well, then or now? Then. As you were growing up, what did you think you would do after you graduated? I wanted to be in drama.

00:08:45.960 - 00:08:55.960

In drama. Okay. When you went to high school, did you have to change schools? No. Only in the same school? No, the same part.

00:08:56.560 - 00:09:14.420

Oh, okay. Evanston High. And in high school, what did you enjoy studying? Drama? Did you have drama classes? Yeah, we had that. I wasn't very serious.

00:09:16.200 - 00:09:29.640

I was going to ask you what kind of student you were. Not very good. Okay. I got by all right, so that I could get into college.

00:09:31.180 - 00:09:38.740

What were your outside activities? Were you involved in sports at all? Oh, yeah. What were some of those sports that you enjoyed?

00:09:41.380 - 00:10:05.260

Baseball. Did you play on a team? I don't think they had much for the girls going there, unless it was a terrific class. I guess the girls did most of that.

00:10:05.340 - 00:10:16.620

I didn't get too involved in the things at school. Were you involved in anything musically at school? Well, in art. Not art, but the drama.

00:10:16.620 - 00:10:38.240

Kelly: Okay. But as far as music outside of drama? Litz: My mother taught piano and I got enough of it. Kelly: Did you take piano lessons from her for a long time? Litz: No, she made a deal with me that—I forget now what it was I was going to get

00:10:38.240 - 00:10:58.900

if I'd go to class. My mother taught, my aunt taught. Did your mother teach in your home? No, she'd go to the rooms, to the homes. Were any of your brothers musically inclined?

00:11:01.140 - 00:11:13.940

Oh, not really. When you were in high school, what were your social activities like? Lee: Fun. Kelly: What did you do for fun?

00:11:14.750 - 00:11:34.360

Lee: Oh, I do not know. Usually you would go back and forth to somebody's house and play games and things. Kelly: Tell me about your high school prom. Well, we had two.

00:11:35.460 - 00:11:55.280

There was one lady that taught dancing, and that was a group I went to, and there were always parties there. And then at school, they had them on Friday nights. It was fun.

00:11:56.800 - 00:12:12.540

You did not go with the boy, you went with many. Kelly: In your high school drama, did you put on plays? Were you involved in plays? Melton: I liked to do the working.

00:12:14.850 - 00:12:23.560

Kelly: Behind the scenes? Melton: Behind the scene. Kelly: Do you recall, though, ever being in a play? Melton: Oh, sure.

00:12:24.880 - 00:12:42.680

I would not even remember what it was, but he used to go in to fill in for groups or something. Kelly: Were you ever involved in the costuming of the play, for example? Maxwell: Well, not really.

00:12:43.260 - 00:13:00.660

They needed the work. I would do it as sewing something for some teacher to tell you. Describe your high school graduation, about how many were in your class. McMillan: Five hundred?

00:13:02.470 - 00:13:13.480

At least five. Kelly: Wow. Where was the graduation held? McMillan: Right at school.

00:13:13.570 - 00:13:25.360

Kelly: Did you have caps and gowns? McMillan: No. Do you remember what you wore to high school graduation? Steele: I have the least idea.

00:13:26.660 - 00:13:43.880

Probably I do not really remember. We did not—they did not have robes or anything like that. Kelly: As you were growing up, how would your mom and dad—were they involved with things that you did?

00:13:45.540 - 00:14:04.560

For example, were you in scouts? Or were they involved in PTA? Did they have PTA? Oh, my mother would. Right. And when you graduated from high school, had you already planned where you were going

00:14:04.560 - 00:14:17.220

to college? I started once. I can't even think where it was. You can't? I can't think.

00:14:18.320 - 00:14:42.940

But I went, it was down in DePaul. Well I went down there for, I went in and I really hated it. So I came back and went to Northwestern. But I had to stay out for the rest of the year because I got down there to sing.

00:14:43.880 - 00:14:57.200

So my mother got me playing piano again. Good for her. No, not for me. So anyway, then I—

00:14:57.200 - 00:15:08.640

You still didn't love it, huh? Well, I would have liked to, but I didn't. When you went to Northwestern, where did you live? In Evanston.

00:15:09.520 - 00:15:16.540

And you commuted? I commuted, yeah. And what was your major? Drama.

00:15:16.660 - 00:15:25.000

Drama. Okay. Recall, if you could, any plays or how you were involved with the drama department at North Point.

00:15:25.020 - 00:15:59.720

They had a thing from this woman, I wish I could think of her name, but she taught drama. When I was in eighth grade and so on, she would have the children be in the plays and do them all. And they were wonderful. And so that's what got me into doing the drama. And I loved just working on the things. And had a lot of fun out of it. And she was known

00:15:59.880 - 00:16:36.620

all over for her work because she started the children's theater. theater. And what did you think that you would do after you graduated from college? What were your goals? I didn't college. I quit and I did freshman and At that time, I met it and I did not meet him.

00:16:36.800 - 00:16:57.960

There was a young man who worked at the gas station where we bought gas. That is where we bought it. He was taking air—what am I trying to say? Flying.

00:17:00.620 - 00:17:15.180

So anyway, he would keep telling me about it. One day he said, "They're going to take five girls." I said, "No kidding." So I went there the next day and got into the—

00:17:21.140 - 00:17:49.020

But there were five of us that went in. Every morning at about eight or seven you had to get out to the place and work on your plane. And so I liked it so much that I did not go home.

00:17:53.020 - 00:18:06.940

And somewhere or another, the school did want me back. So that particular program was not a part of Northwestern? No. Well, yeah, it was, actually.

00:18:06.940 - 00:18:30.840

It was hard. Yeah, they were. In fact, the teacher that taught the flying—well, he didn't teach the flighting, but the ground. He was almost going to flunk me, and I said, "You can't do that to me."

00:18:30.840 - 00:18:51.360

So anyway, he kept me in there. What did your mom and dad, how did they feel about your flying? It bothered my mother, it scared her. So when you're taking these flying lessons, you're not living at home anymore?

00:18:51.910 - 00:18:54.720

Oh, sure. You're living at home and commuting. Yeah. Okay.

00:18:55.810 - 00:19:05.340

Tell me about your first instructor and about your solo flight. What were you flying? It's Cubs. Cubs.

00:19:06.400 - 00:19:17.980

Okay. Do you remember who your instructor was? I can see him, but I can't think of his name. Did you know any other girls who were flying?

00:19:17.980 - 00:19:25.960

Lee: Yeah, there were five of us. Kelly: Yeah, and you were one little group. But outside of that, had you ever known a girl who flew? Lee: No.

00:19:26.320 - 00:19:38.080

Kelly: It was just that one guy that kind of talked you into trying. Lee: Well, he didn't talk me into it. It sounded like a good thing, and then I liked it better than school. Kelly: Right.

00:19:39.340 - 00:20:10.680

Maureen, was this before Pearl Harbor or after? Lee: Before. before. Tell me when and where you were and what you remember about Pearl Harbor. The day that happened, I was out flying and you just could not believe what was going

00:20:10.680 - 00:20:34.680

on and everything that you could hear. That's all you thought about. Kelly: How do you think that changed the role of women, actually changed the people in America, Pearl Harbor and World War II? Well, I think they have more respect for women now.

00:20:38.290 - 00:20:58.020

I mean, they do. Sometimes they're not proud of the girls, so they go goodbye. That particular time, women had to start doing other things than taking care of the homes, right?

00:20:58.230 - 00:21:26.260

Oh, sure. As you continued taking flying lessons, do you recall anything outstanding about any of your flights that you made? I taught it, you know, when I got it from the beginning.

00:21:26.740 - 00:22:03.120

I just kept going and I worked for a woman, I can't say I worked for her. She had a place that her nephew had talked her into playing, her backing him to build this place. And so she did, but then he died and this woman, his aunt, was stuck with it.

00:22:04.080 - 00:22:36.920

I was trying to get a job because I wanted to fly, and my dad said, "It's either school this fall or you're going to be doing it." I tried from the start of Chicago down to try to get a job. And finally this woman, one day I had stopped at this little place, and anyway she gave

00:22:36.980 - 00:22:55.520

me a ride home. She said, "Are you still hanging around here?" My dad had always taught me that he said, "Unless you're worth something, then don't ask anybody for salary."

00:22:55.520 - 00:23:17.840

And so I had been washing planes and feeding them and putting water, I mean gas in them and everything else. And finally she came and she said, "Are you still hanging around here?" So from then on I could take all the high flying I wanted.

00:23:20.020 - 00:23:32.520

I didn't take advantage of it. I worked every day, but I got my— And she compensated you letting you fly, huh? Well, I did not get any money.

00:23:35.020 - 00:23:53.840

Then when you got your private pilot's license, did you then begin to have students? Not until you had to have the instructor's rating. And you got that? I got that.

00:23:54.660 - 00:24:20.720

Do you recall any of those students that you had? One, a boy who took me to dinner. She remembers that. Did you have some girl students?

00:24:21.180 - 00:24:34.760

Oh, yeah. They don't like girls. Girls don't like to be treated. I think they're over it now, but they're doing it a little bit differently.

00:24:35.380 - 00:25:06.520

It was funny. How long did you stay and live in Evanston and teach flying? Well, I was teaching out in Dearborn, but I did that until I got a job. My problem was I wanted to go to the WASP, but I had this doctor said that, "You'll

00:25:06.520 - 00:25:35.640

in a lot of trouble. They won't take you because you have this murmur." So I went to—they had called me a couple of times to come and fly. And finally I took a job down where the girls were, you know. What was it now? Anyway, I went down there and taught.

00:25:36.380 - 00:26:05.000

Do you recall how you heard about the WASP training? I think I heard about it when I was teaching. How did you get from Michigan down to Sweetwater? I drove.

00:26:07.500 - 00:26:28.500

What kind of car did you have, Marie? They wanted to take five girls in. Did those five girls that started with you flying, did they eventually end up as wasps? I was the only one that did.

00:26:30.120 - 00:26:42.560

When you got down to Sweetwater, who hired you as an instructor? Do you recall? I can't think of his name, but he ran the thing. And then where did you live?

00:26:43.540 - 00:27:11.560

I lived right around the corner. There was a woman that did work on the secretary. I roomed with her for a while. What did you think you would be teaching? Beginners.

00:27:12.040 - 00:27:25.180

Okay. On which airplane? Oh, Cubs. Were there other female instructors? There were two girls that came in.

00:27:27.740 - 00:27:49.340

I think you saw them. What was your understanding of what that program was all about? What did you think these girls who went through training, what was the purpose of that training? I mean, the whole—

00:27:49.480 - 00:28:09.580

The whole WASP program. I think they figured that they needed flyers, and they were just as good as the men. Do you recall how your mom and dad felt when you left to go to Texas? Were they pleased with what you were doing?

00:28:11.680 - 00:28:29.040

My mother worried, but Dad thought it was fine. Kelly: Were you ever able to take your mom and dad up in an airplane? Morgan: Oh, sure. My mother, we started down this fairway.

00:28:30.050 - 00:28:46.860

I started up and said, "Oh, that was very nice. Now let's go home." She never got used to it. Kelly: When you were at Sweetwater, do you recall any of your students or anything that

00:28:47.000 - 00:29:23.100

happened as an instructor, when you were instructing them? Anything unusual? I really don't think so. It was easy and we were just on the first strike thing. I don't recall any problems. At some point, you decided that you wanted to be a student instead of an instructor. How long had you been instructing before you became a student yourself?

00:29:24.800 - 00:29:59.780

Gosh, I'd been from sophomore in college to then. The only thing I was doing was flying. What made you decide that you wanted to be a WASP rather than an insurer? Well, the lady that was the one that keeps care of the girls, she told me, she said,

00:29:59.880 - 00:30:14.820

"Marine, you better go in because they're going to close this." And I said, "Well, I don't think they'll take me." And she said, "I'll see that they do." So I went in then.

00:30:15.570 - 00:30:27.600

Did they make you take a physical? Oh, sure. It's all right. So then you went into training with some of the girls that you had already trained to

00:30:27.600 - 00:30:42.720

fly the primaries. At what stage? Primary, they took me off of that and went to the other part. When you went into training, then did you have to go through ground school?

00:30:43.360 - 00:31:06.440

No. You just went through the flying part? Well, they started it, but it didn't last because there was no point in it. I had done that before. What did you most enjoy about the courses that everybody else was taking that you had

00:31:06.600 - 00:31:13.520

already done? For example, Morse Code. Did you enjoy Morse Code? No, it never loved me.

00:31:15.920 - 00:31:26.240

Okay, describe for me the auxiliary fields. Of where we lived? At Sweetwater, at Adventure Field. What do you mean?

00:31:26.240 - 00:31:42.020

What were they used for? Well, they had, before we got it, we were flying on, they had it divided, and you had

00:31:42.160 - 00:31:56.840

the freshmen were over here, the beginners, and then the other two are on the other side. So one is going this way, one is going that way. to say we hope they're not confused.

00:31:58.300 - 00:32:09.940

(laughter) Could you describe the barracks that you lived in at Avenger Field and some of your sweet Oh yeah, they were fun. They were fun. Do you recall your bay mates?

00:32:10.980 - 00:32:48.200

Yeah, there was, I can't think of names, but there were two Marines, and they were in, well, they were going to kick me out. Well, in fact, they did after I got with these girls when they first went in. And they were just wonderful. And then the next time when we got—I had to go up the next thing, and that was okay. But you really felt like you

00:32:48.040 - 00:33:08.200

had such good friends there and you hated to miss it. So I used to spend a lot of time down there. Kelly: Right. Maureen, before you went in as a WASP, when you were instructing the trainees, did you ever have to wash one of them out because they could not fly? How did

00:33:08.280 - 00:33:44.780

that make you feel? Terrible because the thing that got me is when they took me in as a student, I mean as a teacher, and these boys, all theirs that were going to die, cut, gave them to me. And it was kind of sickening because the girls were really getting mad at me. And some of them, and some of them deserved it.

00:33:45.240 - 00:34:08.880

I mean, I tried to get like some that were coming back, and he said, "You can't do that because they're already going to cut them." And so it was a terrible feeling to take them right off. And the girls didn't like me too well, I'll tell you that.

00:34:09.980 - 00:34:16.920

When you first went to Avenger, were the Canadian cadets still there? No. They had already gone. Okay.

00:34:18.580 - 00:34:40.780

Well, not that I know of. you—what was your favorite airplane to fly? Morgan: Probably—what would I say? I'm trying to think of the name of it. Kelly: AT-6?

00:34:40.840 - 00:35:03.100

Morgan: AT-6, you're right. About everybody's—yeah. Kelly: While you were in training, did anything unusual happen to you while you were in training or on a cross country? Beall: No, never had any troubles.

00:35:03.170 - 00:35:34.240

Kelly: Can you recall any of the cross country trips that you had to make as a trainee? Oh yeah, the one that you go out and then we used to do it though when I was teaching, you'd go out and take them and then we'd fly them back. Oh, and did a lot of playing around.

00:35:36.140 - 00:35:51.100

Did you make lasting friendships with some of the girls who were in training? I really haven't seen any. What kind of flying— Some I know, but we haven't kept.

00:35:53.520 - 00:36:07.340

Describe what you wore to fly in. What are they in this— Zoot suit. Zoot suit.

00:36:13.780 - 00:36:34.920

What did you do in your spare time when you were a trainee? Did you have any time off? Oh yeah, times were off, sure. But you had some studying to do or work to do.

00:36:35.680 - 00:36:44.300

Do you recall marching? Oh, yes. Describe that for us. Well, you know, I guess I'm different than some.

00:36:44.620 - 00:37:03.000

I like to. I think it was nice and I thought it was fun. But I used to see us get out in the field and they'd say, "Here we go. Up. Up. Two. Three. Four." [Laughter]

00:37:04.680 - 00:37:13.100

Did you recall singing as you marched? Oh, they wouldn't let me. [Laughter] Lord, I'd spoil everything.

00:37:13.400 - 00:37:41.200

Oh, no. Were there any accidents while you were in training that you recall that— I remember seeing two girls that they came in the plane with minus wings. But yeah, the one girl that died and we had to take her.

00:37:42.890 - 00:37:57.460

Do you recall how that made you feel? You feel terrible, but you mean does it scare or something? No. And you went right back up and flew after she was killed. Yeah.

00:38:01.880 - 00:38:23.940

Recall your graduation. By that time, did you have new uniforms? We can't think. I'm not sure that we did. Did we? Kelly: The Santiago Blue? Martinez: Oh, yeah. But you know, I don't think I got those.

00:38:24.000 - 00:38:46.420

Did any of your family come out for your graduation? No. How long was that flight training? How many months? I really can't count because I quit the first.

00:38:47.040 - 00:39:02.660

I went to— Yours was different than the other girls in your class, because they put you ahead because of your flying. Do you recall the graduation itself?

00:39:04.660 - 00:39:15.240

Actually, no. Okay. I would like to know what they did. When you got your orders, when you graduated, where were you assigned?

00:39:16.000 - 00:39:31.100

Up north at, what is it? Romulus? Yeah, Romulus. Yeah. So you had been actually in training for seven months at Sweetwater.

00:39:33.170 - 00:39:42.320

Well-- The entire program was seven months. You weren't actually in training because you skipped ahead. No. Okay. But then you graduated with 44-4.

00:39:42.660 - 00:40:08.900

Mm-hmm. Do you recall how you got from Sweetwater to Romulus? Did you come home for short times? Yes. I don't know how I got it, but I think I just took a plane up. Okay.

00:40:10.000 - 00:40:38.400

At one time I had, when I was teaching, I had a ball, I mean a car. And so that, but I gave that. Okay, okay we're gonna stop. She's got to change film. Okay. I sound like I've got it. No, she's good. No, that's all right. I don't want the thing.

00:40:38.520 - 00:40:50.740

[audio cuts out] Okay. Once you had finished training and graduated, and then you left and came home for a few days,

00:40:51.300 - 00:41:02.640

do you recall how you felt when you wore that uniform? I thought it was pretty neat. [laughter] Okay.

00:41:03.180 - 00:41:18.620

And then you reported to Romulus, which is a fairing base. To whom did you report? Do you recall? I can't think of who it is. When you got to Romulus, where did you live? Were there other WASPs already there?

00:41:18.960 - 00:41:51.900

Oh yeah, we had bays. There were quite a few. Some of the girls, they'd been there quite a while. What was your assignment at Romulus? "Do what they tell you to do." They was mostly—we took planes out to the West Coast.

00:41:52.340 - 00:42:09.840

I'm trying to think of which one it was. Then the others would come through and get them, take them. Could you describe a ferrying trip? Would you take your own parachute as you were on the trip?

00:42:09.840 - 00:42:28.920

Litz: Oh, yeah. Take your own and go your own. Sometimes would meet, or you'd just go and get up there. Kelly: When you would take this airplane to another air base, then what would happen?

00:42:29.520 - 00:42:50.900

Sometimes they'd give you something to fly or they would send you back. Then how would you get back from the West Coast back to Romulus? Well, usually there was another plane that would be going that way. And then you'd have to bring your parachute back with you.

00:42:51.100 - 00:43:26.640

Oh, yeah. It carries all the time. Do you remember any trip that you made that was unusual or that you want to tell us about? I must have been having dull times because I can't think of any that was any particular. get there you go over you come back you go back and you go back and forth and so it it was uh

00:43:26.640 - 00:43:56.340

to me it was just a very wonderful thing to be just up there flying and so. Tell me Maureen how does it feel when you're up in the air all by yourself? Well if I know where I'm going it's fine. We did take one that was so funny because we were going, I don't know where we were, it was south.

00:43:59.000 - 00:44:21.980

And we were, there were three of us and two of us didn't have their maps and it was getting late. And this one girl said, "Why don't you just follow me?" And so we said, "Okay." So we got on there, and it's getting late,

00:44:22.640 - 00:44:39.060

and this one could not find out where the plane was supposed to be. And so we're talking and we're saying, "What are you doing?"

00:44:39.060 - 00:44:53.480

(mimics car engine) And she said, "I'm telling you, I'm closing you two off." So she and I are talking to each other. And she got us there.

00:44:53.840 - 00:45:07.480

But it got to be, it was getting dark. And I don't remember her name, so there's nothing I can say. (both laugh)

00:45:07.480 - 00:45:23.440

That was the last time I ever went without my own maps. Did you ever at any other time get lost? I don't think I've been. We weren't lost.

00:45:24.540 - 00:45:36.080

Just position uncertain? Yeah. No, I don't think so. Was there ever a time when you were really frightened when you were flying?

00:45:38.200 - 00:46:12.960

Litz: There undoubtedly I have, but I can't remember. They didn't have any big things ever happen. When you would go on these flights to deliver airplanes, would you sometimes go in a group? Well, we were all going to the same place, but somebody's always starting off ahead or behind or something, so it isn't like we're trying to be together.

00:46:14.360 - 00:46:26.600

Would there also be male pilots? Oh sure. Going into these groups. Did you do other things other than ferry?

00:46:27.320 - 00:46:42.520

Or was your job to ferry? Yeah, that's all that I ever did with it. But you know, it wasn't a long time. By the time I got in there, I'd been teaching and so forth.

00:46:46.400 - 00:47:20.040

I didn't stay with that too long because, in fact, the day that they cut it off, I was out way up, and I was going to pick up another plane and bring it back. I was signing up my things, and he called and said, "Forget it. It's all over."

00:47:20.800 - 00:47:41.340

They wouldn't let us finish. It was a long thing. It was going to be from west to east, so they just canceled it out. Kelly: And then how did you get back to Romulus?

00:47:41.480 - 00:47:58.520

Litz: Oh, they gave us a ride. Kelly: Do you remember when you first heard about that the Watts were going to be disbanded and how you felt? We were all—I found mine that day.

00:48:00.440 - 00:48:23.040

I think everybody felt sorry about it, but we knew what was going to happen. Kelly: During the time that you were flying, after you graduated from Sweetwater and you were flying, did you ever go to any other kind of school? you go down to Orlando for OCS?

00:48:24.490 - 00:48:41.420

No, I didn't go for that, but I went for the— High altitude? High altitude. Well, the different—I got flying other things. Okay.

00:48:45.500 - 00:49:22.500

you did not No, I think I flew home or drove home or somebody had a car. I actually don't remember. I think we just flew home.

00:49:23.600 - 00:49:52.800

What do you think the WASP accomplished with your training and with your assignment? What do you feel the WASP accomplished? I think we accomplished the same thing that the boys did. Sometimes it used to bother me a little bit because the girls are taking the things that

00:49:52.900 - 00:50:13.660

the boys are doing. We can't go over there, but it's shoving boys right out into the bad part. And that makes me feel kind of lousy sometimes. But we all did a good job, I think.

00:50:17.440 - 00:50:32.720

What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? Well, if it weren't for her, we wouldn't be flying. Did she ever visit your base? Oh yeah.

00:50:35.510 - 00:51:02.100

Do you recall at graduation who gave you your wings? I think I got them from her. She was a hard woman, but we wouldn't have been there. When the program was over and you went back home, did you go back home?

00:51:02.920 - 00:51:15.520

Mm-hmm. Okay. Then what did you do next? I got married. No, I instructed.

00:51:18.180 - 00:51:40.680

Oh, I know him. I knew who he was. He was in the same class with my brothers. And a good friend is a good friend of his, too. And so he put us together. And it didn't take long.

00:51:41.020 - 00:51:52.040

I think it was three weeks. OK. Forgetting that Jack is in the room, could you tell me what are the qualities

00:51:52.040 - 00:52:26.220

that you saw in him that made you fall in love with him? Everything about him I guess. He's a real nice guy and he's sweet and he's not mean or one of these big guys that think he's the greatest and well, everything about him. Tell me, what had Jack been doing while you were in training and flying for the WASP?

00:52:27.240 - 00:52:43.520

He was overseas. He was in the—I know it, I know it, say it, Jack. Mind sweeping. Mind sweeping.

00:52:45.340 - 00:53:07.260

Right at the first of it. He went on and they were very busy in those days. When he came back home and you met him and had your first date, was he still wearing a uniform? No.

00:53:07.980 - 00:53:28.960

Tell me about the first date. It was pretty long ago. Was it just the two of you? No, I think we had this friend that introduced us.

00:53:31.170 - 00:54:00.540

He was a good friend of mine, and I knew who Jack was. And he says he thinks he knew what I was. Well, I knew what he was. Anyway, it was, you know, we were of age and during the war with all the stuff that was going on, there was no way I was

00:54:00.540 - 00:54:27.900

going to get involved in that kind of thing. So I just didn't get into things like that. And I thought when I get married, it's going to be for real and I'm not going to get - because there is so many troubles. Did your families know each other?

00:54:30.680 - 00:54:46.880

Had you met Jack's family before you married him? Sure, I met them. Describe your wedding. Well, I tell you, it was very simple.

00:54:48.560 - 00:55:22.620

We got married in my home. His brother-in-law was a lawyer, a judge, so he married us in our house. Kelly: Then did you have a honeymoon? We went down to Texas to see his sister, because she did not get to see him.

00:55:24.340 - 00:55:38.180

She did not know me, and I did not know her. We were very good friends. Kelly: Then where did you live? Maxwell: Well, that is a long story.

00:55:40.580 - 00:56:04.900

We started out and I had a brother who was longer, but he had—oh, this is too long a story. No, we've got plenty of time. Well, he went to school the same time Jack did, so they knew each other.

00:56:05.160 - 00:56:35.200

But we stopped in Peoria. He said, "What are you going to do?" He said, "See, I've got a great idea for you." He used to make dolls and things, different type things, Christmas things.

00:56:36.200 - 00:57:16.620

So he talked Jack into going into this thing of making these dolls. So he had all this money put in it, and we lived down there. I didn't take too long a time to get pregnant, so we had our first child down there. But Jack did not like that one, so he sold his thing and we went up north to Evanston.

00:57:16.750 - 00:57:23.620

Kelly: And this first child was a son? Mildred: No, daughter. Kelly: A little girl. Okay.

00:57:24.690 - 00:57:44.500

As that little girl began to grow up, how were you involved in her activities, say at school? I tried to do what I could around school, but it helped. When you moved back north, what did Jack do?

00:57:46.620 - 00:57:58.880

He's a builder. Eventually, did you have other children? I had two boys. Tell us about your children.

00:57:58.880 - 00:58:17.600

Three boys. Two boys. No, you're the... Tell us about your three children. Well, Sandy is a therapist.

00:58:19.860 - 00:58:37.880

And then our son is a doctor. And the third one is, I don't know how you say it. [Unintelligible] Okay, can you hear that?

00:58:39.120 - 00:59:00.680

You said commercial fishing? [Unintelligible] He's very different from the one, the other one. Now that your children have all gone from home, how do you spend your time?

00:59:09.120 - 00:59:48.460

We do a lot of that. Are you a good golfer? No, but I like it. and I'm better at golf. I mean bridge and I am that. But I don't, I like it. I like the game. And Maureen, now what is a Christmas like in your home? Well, it depends. If the kids are going to be at our house this Christmas, then we all get

00:59:48.400 - 01:00:26.200

together but if it isn't why then they have to go to their side. Our one some of the kids are so far away that you can't. The two, one boy lives in Lake Tahoe and other one lives up north and Sandy is around Evanston so we always see her but trying to see the boys it's a little difficult. When you have Christmas at

01:00:26.260 - 01:00:49.700

your house do you have it here in Michigan or in Florida? It's been a long time since we've had them in our house because it's very difficult for the kids with babies and so forth. It's a lot easier for them to be in their home so that's what we do. Do you have grandchildren? Oh yes. Tell us about your

01:00:49.700 - 01:01:26.040

grandchildren? Well that is certainly wonderful. Let's see we have one our one boy has well we're grandparents on that one and he has one and then we have our Our daughter has three. Two, one is, oh, that's the one I told you.

01:01:27.800 - 01:01:56.580

And then Sandy's, she has the four twins. She was going, well, two girls, but she was going to have six kids. So she had two, and she said to me, "You won't believe this. We're having twins."

01:01:57.300 - 01:02:16.980

So she got four, and I teased her, "Where's the sixth?" She says, "Never where she lives." So anyway, Sandy has the three. Marlene, what makes you happy?

01:02:19.640 - 01:02:35.940

Feel good, I guess. I think I'm always happy unless there's something that makes me sad. And speaking of sad, throughout your lifetime, I'm sure there have been good times and bad times.

01:02:36.380 - 01:02:56.600

There have been sad times and happy times. What has gotten you through the sad times? If it was with him, it would help. I don't know.

01:02:58.900 - 01:03:28.260

I don't know. I haven't been in a situation yet where I've lost somebody except a father, but that was before he was. And I think that when you have sadness, it eventually does its own...I think that you

01:03:28.440 - 01:03:45.320

find ways to mend them. Of all the things that you have done in your life, what is the one thing that you are most proud of? Him.

01:03:50.360 - 01:04:18.680

What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? When I hear what you're talking, I think that it will last, but it's going to take something like that. Because I don't know what they will be doing just daily, do you?

01:04:24.260 - 01:04:55.580

So you never know when something is going to happen in this world. And if something would come and they are needed, maybe they need to be trained. I don't know. What do you think gave you the courage to do something flying that most women would

01:04:55.580 - 01:05:13.960

never think of? Oh, golly, I could hardly wait to do it. I really didn't think about it much until this kid that was telling me about it all the time. And I just fell in love with it.

01:05:16.860 - 01:05:42.700

What do you think your legacy will be? I don't want to know. Maureen, if you could say something to your grandchildren or great-grandchildren or to children 25, 50 years from now that might encourage them to step out and do something,

01:05:44.250 - 01:06:21.820

to have the courage to become somebody. What would you like to say to those future generations? I don't know exactly. I hope that my children and grandchildren will live their lives, that they will care and do the right things, which I don't think I

01:06:21.820 - 01:07:03.300

have too much trouble we've got some really neat kids and just live life right and I think that if you don't waste your time. Do you have a favorite word? Is there anything that I've left out, anything that you can think of that you would like

01:07:03.500 - 01:07:23.960

to talk about or to tell us about? When your children and grandchildren watch this interview years from now, is there anything else that you would like to say to them? I'd probably tell them don't you dare laugh.

01:07:30.120 - 01:08:00.940

You know I think they go their own gate and go away. I don't think that when they do things that are, they're a little bit proud. I like to really give them a good feeling because I think it's important that they have to feel that they're doing right.

01:08:03.480 - 01:08:14.740

I feel like you did right by granting us this interview and I want to thank you. I thank you. Anything you want to ask Nancy? Do you have any theater majors in your family?

01:08:17.240 - 01:08:31.340

Actually, a niece. Really? Yeah. She's been pretty good at it. And she's out, where is it?

01:08:32.100 - 01:08:41.700

Hawaii. Hawaii, yeah. And she does puppets. Which is like children's theater.

01:08:42.100 - 01:08:58.020

Mm-hmm, yeah. And she's very familiar with this woman and she's done a lot of it. Anybody get your mom's musical talent? Not really.

01:08:59.060 - 01:09:12.380

None of the grandchildren? Well, they all play. Does anybody fly? My one son does.

01:09:13.940 - 01:09:35.380

Just for fun? No, what am I saying? No, I'm wrong. It's my brother. But he died. But he had a boat. I mean a plane. A plane.

01:09:35.940 - 01:09:42.340

Okay, alright, we're done. I just wanted to know if anybody flew. Thank you so much. Well, thank you.