00:00:02.860 - 00:00:13.520

What gave you that love of flying? I need to know where that love started. Okay, are there any questions? No.

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Can we do the rule now? Yeah, and now Nancy does the rule. Now we have one big rule. This is our rule, Gloria.

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You're in charge. If you want to stop, we'll stop. If you don't want to answer a question, you say, "Let's just move on." I mean, we really want this to be a pleasant experience for you.

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>> It is so far. >> Oh, okay. >> I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we are interviewing Gloria Heath.

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She was a WASP, Class 44-5. Today is October 14th. We are at the Lancaster Hotel in Houston, Texas. Gloria, if you will begin by telling us your name

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and when and where you were born. >> It's Gloria Middle Initial W Heath. I was born, to the best of my recollection, in May 7, 1922, in Lawrence, Long Island, which -- well, there it is,

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Lawrence Long Island State of New York. >> Okay. Could you tell me something about your mom and your dad? >> Yes, I surely could. They're very influential in a non-intrusive way in my life.

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My father was a great nature lover, had wandered in the woods and had a curiosity about natural objects, minerals, all the groove. And through his interest there and flowers, in fact, he had grown one of the first cactus gardens on Long Island,

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which was quite odd, but the odd always interested him. And my mother's side, hers was the arts. And she was impeccable taste in art and had taken some courses, not only in history of art,

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but she herself did some drawing, starting with fountains and that sort of, well, I guess, watercolor, semi-architectural and not. But my recollection of both of them and their interesting backgrounds, each of them, their

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lives were very full, particularly my father was such a wide spectrum of interest. people that they knew, there were many interesting opportunities. Their life was interesting. They were interesting subjects and people that were the part of everyday life.

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He had a mineral collection, one of the first called fluorescent minerals. These are minerals that when exposed to ultraviolet light, it would excite the inner structure of the minerals and they would glow, these wonderful luminescent, called fluorescent colors.

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This was around me and I expressed interest in many of these things, but not really very much. He provided it in a way, it was to my mother's horror. In some cases he came home one day

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because he thought it would be interesting to have a monkey in the house. He had a greenhouse and an outdoor garden. And he had contrived a moon that would shine and all sorts of rock gardens and a pond that

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had lilies and alligator. I'll have to tell you about the alligator and my brother. And in the winter, of course, the lilies would come underneath the greenhouse to winter over. And I do recall, because I think my mother has told me this story about my father, that

00:04:05.220 - 00:04:29.820

he brought home a monkey. And she had read that monkey are very jealous of young children and she really, she would never express any antagonism or criticism of my father in any way, but she was wary as a protector of her children about the monkey and she perhaps had even thought to suggest

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to him that the next day he might take it right back where he'd gotten it. And she came down and the monkey was looking at her and started peeling a banana in such a human way and eating a little nibble here that her heart melted. I think she did wait a day before she asked my father to take him home.

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But the stories were really that they did get jealous of children and if they were in a crib might even attack them. Well that was that story. I said I'd tell you about the crocodile, alligator rather.

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I really don't know the difference between an alligator and a crocodile. I think a crocodile is Florida and a big thing. But the alligators are small and they did come under the pond in the greenhouse in the winter.

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My brother had a great deal of energy and a great deal of imagination and was attractive and took in everything possible. He really lived a very interesting life amongst people and so forth. He would search people out and enjoyed them.

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And he, of course, would visit girls. This is at a very young age. I don't know what age. I suppose I was around nine or ten, so he was less than two years older.

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And he would visit the girls and then he'd leave the alligator there. And they were so horrified. And he would leave. was the alligator that terrified them.

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They wouldn't touch it. Of course it was quite harmless. It's not big. And often the calls would come.

00:06:03.960 - 00:06:18.680

I had a bicycle and they'd say, "Your brother has left an alligator." And so I'd have to pedal some two miles or so. I don't know if this is very amusing but it shows my brother's enterprise. So I got the alligator back and this happened on more than one or two occasions.

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I don't think that I felt so fondly towards those particular girlfriends he had. I think they were kind of silly not to touch it because I suppose I couldn't help it because I knew it was foolish to be afraid of it. And it was such a silly thing and I probably would make a flourish of it because I thought

00:06:35.980 - 00:06:44.400

it was ignorant on their part. I would forgive the ignorance but I thought it was foolish not to try. I said, "Oh, well, there's a little algae. Just pick it up here.

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Off we go." and so forth and so on to maybe further mortify them in defense of my brother for having left it. It was not a danger to them.

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That's that story. Was your brother older or younger? Just less than two years older than I, yes. The apple of my eye, he was my hero.

00:07:03.840 - 00:07:18.600

Tell me about your grandparents. Oh, I remember so little about my grandparents. Half of each side were from England. I don't really, didn't see much of them.

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I think that my mother and father had children later, not later in life, but maybe after five years of marriage or so. So by that time the grandparents were quite older. I do remember one grandparent, my maternal grandfather, who had come from England, had

00:07:40.120 - 00:07:51.400

a wonderful place. English people do seem to find wonderful places for houses. And summer, they always do have summer places. And it was in Rangey Lake, Maine,

00:07:52.280 - 00:08:05.180

and had several small houses on it in the main house. And we would go up during summers and would have one of the whole houses for our family that would come.

00:08:05.240 - 00:08:20.260

And one saw a lot. He ran a farm, farm in those days I suppose as you raised your own chickens, had people who, helpers to run it. And it was on Rangey Lake so there were lots of boating.

00:08:21.260 - 00:08:31.720

It was a wonderful place for young children. I remember that very fondly. And that's, I don't remember much more about my grandparents. Do you know why they came to America?

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Oh, no I don't know that. This grandfather that I'm mentioning I think was sent to school in Germany and that was not his cup of tea and probably slightly rebellious for a strong discipline. I think he came to forge his own way away from the family.

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That's all I can think of. He was very law-abiding and so he would surely never do anything to upset his parents, but I think he wanted to make his own way in his own way. What did your dad do when you were growing up as far as making a living?

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My father was a member of the New York Stock Exchange, but he had many interests, as I've mentioned, and some of his interests were, there was a wave of people who were interested in magic and some people who were connected with Wall Street, a prominent lawyer, other prominent people were interested in magic really from the point of view that it entertained

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people and they would try themselves to do tricks and thought that was fun and interesting to them because they wouldn't really fool people but it was sleight of hand and that sort of thing that people really wanted to believe in magic. Let me ask you, what are your first remembrances about starting school?

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Oh, couldn't we finish the magic? Sure. I'm sorry. Because I think, I would like to explain their interest in it.

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People, there was a wave of hypnotism and people wanted to be fooled. It was the time, the general public, in many ways they were entertained by the magic, but in a way they were carried away by it, which is not really rational. And Houdini, I think the name Houdini during this time that I grew up was well known.

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He wanted to unmask people who preyed on others by saying they would bring people back from the dead. That sort of thing was very bad and a very good element in the Society of American Magicians wanted to put an end to that and show that it was fakery and so forth.

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So that was more or less how my father and others, Bernard M. L. Ernst, a prominent lawyer and others, got into magic. And then my father saw people doing tricks, card tricks and so forth, and he thought, He would rather do something that didn't fool people.

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He could entertain people. They would be amused by the way he could somehow not pull a rabbit out of a hat, but he based it on mathematics,

00:11:54.620 - 00:12:05.440

which he was really a genius at. He had not had formal training in advanced mathematics training, but his tricks were done with a basis of numbers.

00:12:06.460 - 00:12:26.920

He would offer you a deck of cards and you would chose at random. It was really, he didn't force any on you. And by the questions he asked you about the card and he would put a few other cards out and he would tap them and he would stop and that was your card.

00:12:27.520 - 00:12:49.880

How did he do it? It was all mathematics that he knew that for example one has three letters, so does two, has five, four has four, and he would have certain cards that he would put out that he knew he could get to your card merely by the basis of mathematics, the spelling out of

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the number of digits in the various numbers. And he did develop his own tricks of this sort, and he entertained during World War to at USO, and the servicemen were wild over it, loved it. And he loved doing it.

00:13:07.740 - 00:13:20.760

But then it developed into another whole, really, contribution to higher mathematics, in a sense. And he could see how numbers arranged themselves. He could just see it out there.

00:13:20.760 - 00:13:32.420

He could keep it in his head and see that there was a great order in mathematics. And the rules were sure. It wasn't variable.

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And if you understood how the numbers were put together and how, for example, squares of numbers and cubes of numbers-- really, you're dealing with 10 digits, 0 through 9, and then the repeats and so forth.

00:13:49.680 - 00:14:03.580

He could put all this together and make magic squares. For instance, the simplest would be four cells by four cells, four by four, 16 numbers. There would be consecutive numbers,

00:14:04.050 - 00:14:13.840

and he would distribute them in those 16 positions so that every four cell-- there would be four of those-- four cells added up to the same.

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Every row, column, and diagonal all added up to that same total. Various things like that. Then they got much more complex and his collection now, these number symphonies and really higher magic squares that got into cubes and other geometrical arrangements are now at Brown

00:14:37.320 - 00:14:53.580

University in Rhode Island. None of it washed off on me, I'm sorry to say. What did your mom enjoy doing as you were growing up? Was she into volunteer work?

00:14:53.740 - 00:15:07.360

Yes, she was. And this was again during World War II. There was a great deal that so-called housewives volunteered and sacrificed and did many things for the war effort.

00:15:08.380 - 00:15:24.320

My mother was interested in the Girl Scouts among other things. she had literary interests, one of the literary guild meetings with people. Yes. >> Tell me about your remembrances of starting to school.

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>> I'm sorry? >> Starting to school. >> Oh, school. I went to school, to private schools locally, and then one school which was most unusual,

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Putney School in Putney, Vermont. This made a great impression on me. It was a progressive school founded by Carmelita Hinton who had the notion that young people should not be treated as young people.

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They could do the same things adults did in many ways and take charge of their lives and be independent. She also had the idea that they could get along without what she called canned entertainment.

00:16:14.500 - 00:16:23.320

Half the student body played their own instruments and were part of the school orchestra. You worked on the property. It was in Vermont.

00:16:23.960 - 00:16:39.540

Ran the farm, did a lot of the farming, the carpentry. They say-- I remember I made my bed. That means to say I took hammer and nail and saw and made the bed, constructed it under adult supervision.

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And we ran the farm. And I did go there for summer camp before I went there to school. And I was little.

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I was about 12 years old. And the only job I really could do was to herd the cows. I don't know whether many of the people who read this know anything about cows.

00:17:01.600 - 00:17:10.940

They're very independent. And the cows, I had to herd them. And which meant you didn't do anything. They went where they wanted and munching grass.

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But they must not get into the corn. And I felt so frustrated. On many of my watches, the cows got into the corn. I would try to approach a cow that was going toward the corn.

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I could get fairly close. And just as I did, they would move two steps. But they would move in the direction they wanted to go. So I would try to go in another direction to herd them up.

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I was interested in sports and I was rather good at athletics. So it wasn't that I wasn't quick, but I was out-fought by the cows and they got into the corn, much to my chagrin. It was just explaining the kind of a school it was.

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So that what I learned from it, I suppose, is it encouraged independence. Do you know why your parents allowed you to go to that school rather than going to a school? Oh, we all chose it together.

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We heard about it through a strange way from my father's mathematical context. I mentioned that he did many things in higher mathematics, so to speak, through these number arrangements. He was in touch with many people all over the world.

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They would share this great interest, write to each other and challenge each other. They would try and find out what was not very well known and how – it's very hard for me to explain it. I said not all this rubbed off on me.

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And one of these people he was in touch with came over from England to take up a post at University of Toronto, professor of mathematics. That person had been in touch with someone by the name of Hinton who was known for working in the fourth dimension.

00:19:03.580 - 00:19:15.480

I don't think anyone in school who hears this has worked in the fourth dimension. They're lucky if they understand the three, which are length, width, and height, which are in front of us. Fourth dimension, where does it come from?

00:19:15.580 - 00:19:31.540

Well, when you get older in school you'll find out. But there's fourth dimension, fifth dimension, and many dimensions that mathematicians can envision and project in their work and discuss. So this person who had known Fourth Dimensional Hinton

00:19:31.660 - 00:19:42.880

came over to the United States to take up the post in Toronto. But through this Hinton, he had heard of Carmelita Hinton. And so he was going to Carmelita's Putney School

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summer camp. That would have been-- I was 12 just before he took the post. And so I had been--

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A camp we applied for was a conventional camp, had no places open. And we heard Donald Coxeter talk about Putney Camp and Mrs. Hinton's ideas. And all of us thought this just sounded wonderful. So little Gloria went off to summer camp with Donald Coxeter to Putney summer camp.

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And I did go there a couple of years before I went to school there. How far was Putney from your home? From Putney, Putney from my home. York, Lawrence Long Island was at the base of New England, and you went up through Connecticut

00:20:27.400 - 00:20:46.900

and Massachusetts, and then above Massachusetts is Vermont on the left, New Hampshire on the right, and Putney was just a short distance up in Vermont alongside, not on the river, but alongside the Connecticut River. Right. And did you live in dorms or private rooms or where did you live?

00:20:47.240 - 00:21:01.980

You know, this was a camp where you did it all yourself. I mean, a school and a camp, you did it all by yourself. You built the dorms during these summer camps, and by the time the school opened, the dorms were ready for occupancy.

00:21:02.640 - 00:21:21.000

I lived in a small cottage of a few rooms that had been on the property. Mrs. Hinton probably acquired a few on the land, and it was right near the barn. And about three or four of us lived there. As I said, we had to make our beds in the carpentry sense.

00:21:21.920 - 00:21:41.380

And we'd have to trudge to school. It was, oh, three football fields away, which was a bit of a nuisance when the snow began to melt and it was all turned to mud. It was slush, slush, sink in.

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This was, you know, a muddy season was something to be lived through. But we did barn chores there, and I know one thing at the summer camps that interested me. Of course, horses were abounded.

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I watched a blacksmith shoeing a horse, and the horses were so wonderfully cooperative. These were work horses, usually, and he would just reach down and touch the horse's knee, the horse would obediently bend back his foreleg and then he would put it on his lap and take the

00:22:19.000 - 00:22:33.440

manicure what was under the shoe, you know, pretty smelly and then you know put a new shoe on or whatever and so I learned how to do that and I thought that was great fun and I felt isn't that

00:22:33.680 - 00:22:52.020

wonderful. I did this and you know because children, this is Mrs. Hinton's idea, like very much to take part in life and don't need to have all these things done for them and presented. And when you rode there, for instance, you wanted to learn to ride, you rented a horse

00:22:52.080 - 00:23:06.520

for the season, say the school year or the summer. The horse would live or die without you. You were the one who went early in the morning to the stables and fed it and cleaned the stall and everything of that nature.

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And then of course you took care of, they call it the tack, the saddles and the stirrups and so forth and the reins. You took care of all that. So you had to saddle soak it and took a great deal of care so we all rode bareback.

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Let me back up to your entering school when you first entered first grade. Where was that school in relationship to where you lived? It was a local school right around Lawrence. I really don't recall the name.

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It was not memorable to me. It was just a conventional school, and I don't remember much about it. I skipped the third grade, and therefore never

00:23:47.280 - 00:23:55.760

had really good courses in American history, which I regret. I think it was tutored, but it's not quite the same as the interchange one

00:23:55.980 - 00:24:10.780

gets at school. I do remember one incident during the school. The older children at the school corralled us all. I think I was in the fourth grade, fourth, fifth grade.

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And we all were supposed to meet in the assembly hall. And they said, you all are going to demonstrate against war. That's about all I remember. And so of course, there was a student demonstration.

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But it was not student-led. I don't know who led it. was certainly none of us who took part had any idea why we were doing it.

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I don't know why I mention it, but perhaps someone else has had an experience like that, where a movement comes up that supposedly is grassroots, and it isn't at all. And often, I don't know if there was any way I could see it

00:24:50.580 - 00:24:58.920

was somehow false. I think I did. I think I said, well, I don't know why I'm here. I was probably too little or shy to do anything about it,

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or drop out if I, perhaps that was my inclination. Do you recall any of your teachers in that elementary school? No, I do not. And I think probably it was because they were not memorable. In Putney, no, but in college, yes.

00:25:22.940 - 00:25:32.240

Going back to your childhood, let me ask you, what was a Christmas like in your home? What was it? A Christmas like. A Christmas like.

00:25:33.930 - 00:25:49.880

Oh, I can remember the Christmas when my brother, who was older, told me that if I followed him he would show me that there was no Santa Claus, that our parents would be decorating the tree. And we were at the top of the stairs.

00:25:50.060 - 00:26:08.660

I think everyone has had this experience, or probably much earlier age than I. And we were there, and there was my father decorating the tree. I was so crestfallen. But I think that he was right to show me, and he enjoyed that.

00:26:09.200 - 00:26:29.940

And he was a person, as I said, who was loving and outgoing and cared about other people. And it showed in all through his life. And when we get back to why I started flying, we get back to my brother. Do you remember any special gift that had a lot of meaning to you?

00:26:30.160 - 00:26:47.640

No, I really don't. I think that my brother was romantic. I was more unimaginative at that stage. My imagination had not been piqued and I don't remember perhaps sentimental things of that

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sort. For a Christmas dinner, would you have family? I'm afraid I really can't be helpful there in that I don't recall. And my brother being so lively and full of energy could not be well taken care of at home. He went away to school early, so he went away for seventh and eighth grades. And that would probably

00:27:13.360 - 00:27:40.400

be when you remember a lot. So, no, I really don't recall much. Kelly: At Putnam School, what was your favorite subject? Steele: At Putnam? I don't think I had a favorite subject at that stage. I had so much of interest around me at home, and I don't think that—no, I didn't have any interest,

00:27:40.400 - 00:28:03.780

And I think it took me some time in college to decide what to major in. And of course the thing, I'm jumping the gun a little bit, but the thing at college, I enjoyed studying and I was a good student. But I had then early on, sophomore year, started flying and I chose whatever courses I could

00:28:05.560 - 00:28:23.280

that would help me in flying. For instance, there was an astronomy department at Smith, but I spoke to the professor of astronomy and asked him if he would teach me celestial navigation. And he said, "I'll keep one step ahead of you and we'll do it together."

00:28:23.280 - 00:28:35.460

And so I did take celestial navigation at Smith. I'm jumping the gun here. I mean, there was one teacher there who... Shall we go into this or would you prefer to ask more questions?

00:28:35.800 - 00:28:55.580

I wanted to know about your graduation. Did you go, did you graduate from Putney, 12th grade? How many grades did you go? No, I only went my senior year actually. It was during the Depression. And as I say, my father was a member of the stock exchange and there had been great losses. So that we

00:28:55.600 - 00:29:17.120

conserved and my brother had a little inheritance and helped me to pay the tuition that year. >> Okay, but during your junior high and high school, you were not at Putney? >> No, I was at junior high, I was at, that was eighth grade on, a school in Forest Hills, a private school.

00:29:18.080 - 00:29:32.300

And I took Latin, I remember I thought that was of great interest because of the order and logic, and I became interested in sports. >> What sports? we played hockey and lacrosse.

00:29:32.820 - 00:29:43.240

And lacrosse became a great interest of mine. In later years, I eventually became member of the-- president of the United States Women's Lacrosse Association.

00:29:43.270 - 00:29:55.920

It was just an association. People who liked to play lacrosse would have groups locally and was across the nation. And I even-- that led me--

00:29:56.000 - 00:30:06.920

I was rather good in some years, was all-American, and was chosen for a touring team that went from the United States to Great Britain and Ireland,

00:30:07.660 - 00:30:17.220

which was again a very lovely experience 'cause you go to these countries, this was post-war, post-World War II, and British had been greatly deprived.

00:30:18.660 - 00:30:30.580

And they accepted us into their homes. They had perhaps one egg a week for the family, and this was often offered unbeknownst to us that it was very, very special and their only ration.

00:30:31.260 - 00:30:45.300

I think we were aware enough of the situation that we never would do that. But we lived in people's homes, the parents of the lacrosse people on the other teams and shared because we're of alike interest

00:30:46.050 - 00:30:58.480

and one got to know each other very well, the members of the team and as well as those who we stayed with. >> Right. And this was when you were in high school? No, this was after college.

00:30:59.900 - 00:31:06.040

OK. In high school, you went through 11 grades, and then you went to Putney? Yes.

00:31:06.680 - 00:31:20.960

And you graduated from Putney, actually. What was that graduation like? I have to laugh here often, because I'd like to give you a picture of Putney School.

00:31:21.450 - 00:31:30.820

We know it's progressive. We know it was a co-ed boarding school. That was quite unusual. Mrs. Hinton's idea-- this was--

00:31:30.820 - 00:31:47.760

I graduated in 1939, so we're talking about years-- I went to summer camp there, '35 to '39, we'll say. Mrs. Hinton had no money and floated it. She was way ahead of her time.

00:31:47.900 - 00:32:00.580

And a person who was so enthusiastic, I'm sure she got people to back her of lawyers and who kept having to forgive her debts because she wouldn't probably do

00:32:00.930 - 00:32:10.040

such very good financial planning. Who would? Who has this vision of what she wanted to do? And she could, was so sincere in what she was doing

00:32:10.100 - 00:32:22.980

and was so far ahead of her time and it was acknowledged as a very fine educator. And Putney School is thriving today thanks to her vision. But here we are, all of us working on the farm,

00:32:23.320 - 00:32:37.200

not looking very nice because we were messing around in the barn, and one wore awful old clothes, probably smelly. Probably nothing was told us about keeping clean and personal hygiene.

00:32:38.540 - 00:32:56.800

We just had a great time doing what we could there. But without any so-called social admonition as to what's terribly acceptable in society about how you should look or how you should dress

00:32:56.860 - 00:33:05.400

or how your hair looked-- certainly there was no way to get your hair done or anything like that there-- it was live off the land and enjoy it.

00:33:05.520 - 00:33:19.200

And it was very pioneering from the point of view of your life, your quality of life was excellent because the things you liked to do were things of the mind and things physical on the farm.

00:33:19.720 - 00:33:40.200

So when you say graduation, I suppose one thing that graduation meant is that you had to pass college boards. Everyone at Putney, Mrs. Hinton's view of it, was that you should study, do, follow, Go as far as you can.

00:33:40.820 - 00:33:52.360

People in mathematics there were doing first grade college. They went because they were bright. Many of the students were gifted. They came from parents who were most unusual.

00:33:52.980 - 00:34:19.820

Raymond Graham Swing, who had been a top broadcast commentator. Al Geddes, who was theater, his daughter went there, and others. So they were people who were children of very well-placed parents, intellectuals and active in the business world, but more on an intellectual level were these people, the parents, active.

00:34:20.420 - 00:34:34.700

So you have children like that who could do very well in these subjects. Again, they had so much during their own lives as they grew up that would give them such experiences. Probably travel in many countries of the world.

00:34:34.860 - 00:34:47.960

Some parents were ambassadors. I remember Ellsworth Bunker for one. But as a graduation -- we're talking about college boards. You did what you wanted to do.

00:34:48.120 - 00:35:12.260

I mean, as far as you could go in school and pursued your studies. Your grades were not grades such as other schools had, A, B, C, D, or even percentages. There were resumes, written analyses written by the college, the teachers that just spoke about your progress, whether you were making progress, whether you needed more help.

00:35:12.520 - 00:35:33.760

They were evaluating how you went, how goes it. And so college boards come about, and so now you had to fit in to an entirely different system of marking or assessment of your capabilities. And I remember the talks that we got.

00:35:33.760 - 00:35:50.240

We were told what we were up against and how to do these college boards. They couldn't tell you how, but I remember the advice. I've never forgotten it. in an exam cannot tell the difference between sleepiness and stupidity, so get lots of rest.

00:35:51.400 - 00:36:05.640

Don't bone up." And of course people had very good grades and went on. So now you say what the ceremony of graduation would be, it would have to spring up from the earth, whatever that would be.

00:36:05.640 - 00:36:22.400

I do not recall it, but I know there were certainly no robes or any of this or any diploma had at you, it must have been a joyous occasion of square dancing or whatever they had done all the rest of the time. Probably parents were there and it would just be a jolly get-together.

00:36:23.660 - 00:36:43.700

Let me ask you, you young people who went to Putney School, who had evidently grown up during their early years, not having chores. Did you have chores when you were a child? >> Before Putney.

00:36:43.780 - 00:36:56.160

>> Before Putney. And then to go from that atmosphere into one where you were doing the work, where you were slopping the pigs and cows or whatever, was not that a big adjustment for you?

00:36:56.160 - 00:37:08.320

>> It wasn't an adjustment. It was a shock. We had a governess, I think we learned to polish our shoes and that was about it because everything else was done.

00:37:08.460 - 00:37:30.600

In fact, it was a, I didn't do the gardening, you can imagine the ambitious garden my father had, it would require a resident gardener who came every day, didn't live at the house. No I had not done that but I thought it was jolly good fun. I think everyone did and of course I'd gone to the work camps the summer before and as

00:37:30.600 - 00:37:49.720

I say it was Donald Coxeter's visit that he was coming before he went to the University of Toronto and he told us about Mrs. Hinton's idea. We all thought it was great and my brother gave up his little savings to allow me to go because we really couldn't get the money to do it otherwise.

00:37:50.680 - 00:37:59.700

Where did your brother go to school? As I say, he was so energetic that he had to go to school in the seventh and eighth grades, Harvey School in Hawthorne, New Jersey.

00:38:00.220 - 00:38:10.060

And that was a preparatory school for Hotchkiss. And then to Yale. I think it was, I think our parents realized it, as my brother surely did,

00:38:10.540 - 00:38:29.280

that Hotchkiss was not the best choice for him. He was romantic, independent, imaginative. And this is a school where everything was disciplined And no leeway for - I'm not saying it was not a good school because I don't know whereof

00:38:29.280 - 00:38:54.080

I speak - but it was very conventional. And he was a good student. He got A's in mathematics, I think I've mentioned it, and he took ancient Greek and ancient Roman and read Virgil, Homer, so forth and so on, Cicero, in the original languages so

00:38:54.200 - 00:39:11.660

that he was in a sense a renaissance man. And not lack of that, I think it was that he was so gifted that probably teachers downed him rather than encouraged him. And he rebelled in ways that got him thrown out.

00:39:12.980 - 00:39:22.200

I think he thought it was terrible. That this was just a youth. And I can see why it was not exactly a constructive thing to do.

00:39:22.280 - 00:39:35.460

It was destructive. That the water taps were spring loaded. And so if you wanted, maybe he was good at things like this. He could wash his clothes and would have liked to.

00:39:35.620 - 00:39:44.280

And it must have been a great impediment and he thought it was foolish. So he wired them open. and there was flooding.

00:39:44.760 - 00:39:59.760

And I think probably that was that or one among many. And so he had to go elsewhere to school before he went to college, which was Stevens Institute of Technology. It's a rigorous engineering school, one of the best.

00:39:59.900 - 00:40:15.900

And the degree you got was civil engineer, which was several steps above the normal engineering degree. So it was not for lack of educational capability. >> When you went away to Putnam, did your mother

00:40:15.920 - 00:40:28.880

and dad come up and visit often? >> Now you're talking of a father who, I guess, just during and after the Depression. So he was a member of the New York Stock Exchange.

00:40:29.200 - 00:40:44.960

He had to pay close attention to Stock Exchange. He was very good at it. And he did very well afterwards, but he certainly had to turn very little into something by watching it daily.

00:40:45.370 - 00:40:57.620

So no, it was not his inclination to visit. My mother did, of course. And you're asking, also I'm mentioning about Putney. My brother came and visited me and would,

00:40:58.280 - 00:41:10.760

he didn't know we'd be away on trips, weekends. We'd go canoeing, mountain climbing, all sorts of physical outdoor activity. And one day, it's so sad, he drove all the way

00:41:10.760 - 00:41:26.600

seven or eight hour drive to see me and I was away on a trip. And he drove all the way back then, but the caring, caringness of him to do that. We need to stop and change tape. You're doing just great. Aren't your brother still alive?

00:41:27.220 - 00:41:31.800

No. No, she said he is. Love to meet him. Yeah, it's terrific.

00:41:31.900 - 00:41:39.700

You know, love to meet him. Yeah, you're actually right. It sounds like somebody that everybody needed to meet. He was handsome, blonde.

00:41:40.500 - 00:41:50.700

Oh, he was handsome. - Oh wow. - Come, come, come. - Ready? - Yeah. - Gloria, what made you decide to go to Smith, to college?

00:41:52.140 - 00:42:03.120

- Choosing a college often is who you know, who went there before. I think I was not particularly original in choosing Smith. I knew it was a fine school.

00:42:04.400 - 00:42:18.760

I liked it that it was in the country and probably 'cause others who might, not probably people, one older than me. It appealed to me that it was not Mount Holyoke,

00:42:19.600 - 00:42:34.500

and it was not Wellesley, and it was not Radcliffe, and it was not Bryn Mawr. And I think I liked its-- a type of person who had gone there was not very special,

00:42:35.240 - 00:42:47.980

a little bit-- not many people from Putney went to Smith. The couple did, but people from Putney, for example, would go to Bennington or something more on the art side where they could encourage whatever they had done in art.

00:42:48.520 - 00:43:10.960

I thought it was a nice all-around college that didn't stand for anything special, but very, very good, and the fact that it was a women's college, of course, and it had been started by the person, Sophia Smith, because she thought that in the days that Smith began, I think it was around 1875, sometime around then,

00:43:13.020 - 00:43:25.100

that men were educated, boys were educated, and there was no college that really encouraged women to become educated, and she thought they were very capable of it, and surely were,

00:43:25.320 - 00:43:39.320

and gave the bequest that came into being Smith College. - And it wasn't faster. Oh no. Well, that was near New York.

00:43:39.560 - 00:43:51.660

That would have been against it in Poughkeepsie. What were your ambitions when you finished Putney? I didn't have any ambitions. Did you have a dream?

00:43:53.120 - 00:44:07.700

I don't think I had any of these things. I know that's quite usual for people to want to be this or want to be that. I think I was more deliberate in a sense that I have never thought about those things.

00:44:07.730 - 00:44:22.080

I had never seen myself as this or that. The way I was brought up by my parents, I mentioned the much that went around that I could see. You could say it gave me an advantage.

00:44:22.880 - 00:44:35.760

They were advantageous. I knew that I would certainly go to college. I certainly wanted to. I knew that I could go, that I didn't have to go on a scholarship, and I didn't have

00:44:35.840 - 00:44:49.940

to work when I was at college. So you could say I had advantages, and the fact that I went to private schools, you could say that was an advantage. I think I mentioned to you that I couldn't remember much about the early private school

00:44:50.020 - 00:45:05.000

I went to, so probably it was not an advantage. What about people who are called disadvantaged? That means that their parents had not had the education, so they were poor, they could not earn a great deal of money.

00:45:05.600 - 00:45:28.000

Probably they had a number of children, but children of disadvantaged households who had parents who believed so much in education and wanted to give their children education, sacrificed for it, probably as I say they had many children, they wanted them all to to go to college, perhaps not all could afford it.

00:45:28.720 - 00:45:47.880

But these disadvantaged young people would have to earn a scholarship to go to college, so wanted to, were so sure of the value of a college education and beyond, that they would work very hard.

00:45:47.880 - 00:46:08.300

They were so interested, they wouldn't waste a minute of educational opportunity them that they, I'd like to compare as to who is the more advantaged or disadvantaged. I think it's wonderful when people, so commendable people who have been disadvantaged and go

00:46:08.300 - 00:46:24.520

on to achieve great educational achievement. When you were at Putney, were you involved in things other than sports, for example, in speech or drama? >> Yeah, there were no sports at Putney.

00:46:25.000 - 00:46:36.500

This was just at this junior high and first couple years. No, there were many things offered at Putney. I was not musically inclined. I did take music appreciation.

00:46:36.550 - 00:46:47.680

I was very glad I did and was interested in it. No, and I didn't go in for creative arts. No, I didn't really. I was interested in generally good education.

00:46:48.440 - 00:46:56.140

OK. And were there any of the teachers at Putney who had an influence? No, there were not.

00:46:56.600 - 00:47:10.620

I think that one of the reasons that Carmelita chose the faculty body that she did is she wanted to get people who were themselves involved, say if it was science, that it would be research.

00:47:11.130 - 00:47:31.520

Because she thought they would be more alive and aware of future possibilities and thinking ahead and wanting to perhaps communicate this to their students. I never found that to be true in one chemistry course.

00:47:32.300 - 00:47:51.840

I think the person who taught it could not tolerate someone who could not do it very well because perhaps they were driven by this excellence. I found that not a very pleasant experience. What did I do about it?

00:47:52.720 - 00:48:10.460

I suppose because we didn't get marks, there were reports. And the reports would come that I had, and I don't know if they'll understand this, an execrable laboratory technique that would be where they'd have to look up. And I didn't think that was very fair.

00:48:11.360 - 00:48:38.780

I spoke, Mrs. Hinton was very kind to me. She said, "Well, how do you view that?" I said, "I really didn't think that was fair." I said, "I would like to learn, and if there was something I had no background in, laboratory technique or what I should do, and no one told me, I wish somebody had told me and she agreed with me.

00:48:41.480 - 00:49:05.800

Once you started Smith, what did you major in? I chose education because it was not so rigorous in a certain sense of remembering dates as history. I was not gifted in English. And it seemed to me a very good subject

00:49:05.800 - 00:49:20.100

to take in that many of the people who were very prominent leaders in history had views as to Bonaparte, as one example, as to what they would like their country to be.

00:49:20.100 - 00:49:45.060

They dominated their country, took their country into foreign wars and created an era, Napoleonic era, had views as to how people should be educated and what he wished his citizenry should become and represent. Therefore how they would be trained or trained, that's a bad word in education, you're taught,

00:49:45.160 - 00:50:06.020

you're not trained, it's not a skill. And that interested me, and many of the leaders in history had views on education. And then some of the American educators, Lincoln Steffens, were really thrilling to read about. And it was the -- I mentioned there was a teacher at Smith that was the one who taught

00:50:06.080 - 00:50:21.920

education. I remember he taught -- really, by that time, we were in a seminar stage, studying education, not only in classwork, but more discussion. There was during World War II in that I graduated in '39, the rumblings of war were certainly

00:50:22.040 - 00:50:42.760

there. There was something called the Hoover Commission, Hoover-Gibson, who gave money if educators and they gave you the book that they had written would study, and at this time we were not doing very well in the war against Germany, re-education of Nazi youth.

00:50:43.800 - 00:51:08.400

And at that time the outlook was if we win the war, well they weren't sure we might, but they were thinking that in such a case that you then dominate another country, you've brought them to their knees, you're victorious. You should turn around and make something of those people that was before the Marshall

00:51:08.400 - 00:51:25.540

plan, which did the same thing, the outreach to people to bring everyone in the world up to the same opportunities. And if it took your money to do it, so much the better, because you're doing something very constructive and really what's best for the world.

00:51:26.600 - 00:51:39.860

Not imposing your view of what's best for the world, it's hard to say that. What you're doing is what is best for the same, helping the people help themselves. And that's a view I thought was wonderful. And one thing that--

00:51:39.860 - 00:51:49.240

I believe it was Lincoln Steffens who had said-- and this is this education professor-- tell me two stories that have stayed with me. Or the first one, not Lincoln Steffens.

00:51:49.340 - 00:52:02.620

The first one was a convention or a gathering of teachers. And in between times, they're brought up to speed in different subjects. And people would just talk and look around.

00:52:02.680 - 00:52:13.380

And one would say, oh, what do you teach? what do you teach and then people would talk about it and why they did it and all about themselves and what was so good about what they taught. There was one person who was silent.

00:52:14.480 - 00:52:22.280

This is obvious. And that person said, "What do you teach?" He said, "Oh, I teach people." Which impressed me.

00:52:24.920 - 00:52:54.280

The originality of the thinking and just correct, exactly how to think. And the story about Lincoln Steffens was a son took his, a father took his son around an art gallery and guided him as he was looking at them all and then all the different portraits and other paintings and said, "What do you think is the most wonderful thing about all

00:52:54.320 - 00:53:03.140

of this that you've seen?" And his son said, "I don't know." Such a question. He said that the greatest painting has not been painted yet.

00:53:05.160 - 00:53:20.360

This is why I thought this teacher was inspiring. Do you recall where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor and how it affected you? Oh yes, of course, this is the Kennedy moment. John F. Kennedy.

00:53:20.980 - 00:53:37.180

Yes, I was at Smith College. It was in the house on December 7th, 1941, just milling about whatever we were doing that day and the news came over the radio. Yes, I do recall that. How do you think that changed the face of America?

00:53:41.440 - 00:54:09.340

I know how it changed it because I've read about it and I was reading just recently Daniel Shore who had been a commentator on PBS on the World News. It was his reaction after September 11th, 9/11. And he said, "I do not see" - this is quite a time after, it was a year after - "I do not see that this country has changed. I think that we have not been

00:54:09.480 - 00:54:42.080

asked for sacrifices, and thank heavens taxes have not gone up. We've been told that we should try and be'responsible.' I don't know what he said, I don't know what that is. I This is when women became part of the workforce. This is when racial equality starting in the armed forces

00:54:42.510 - 00:54:54.260

and volunteerism, so-called home makers volunteered for all that was needed. Everyone sacrificed. The volunteers were your mothers and others

00:54:54.240 - 00:55:11.560

who knitted bundles for Britain and soup kitchens and that sort of thing. And he said he thought that was so remarkable that it did change the face of America. >> When is the first time that you recall having seen an airplane?

00:55:12.400 - 00:55:25.420

And when did the love of maybe learning to fly that airplane enter into your thinking? >> You're putting words into my mouth. I do remember the first airplane, and again this is my father.

00:55:26.500 - 00:55:38.920

We were very little, my brother and I. I don't know how old. It was a barnstorm, it was in a field out near our house in Long Island, and he took people for rides.

00:55:39.040 - 00:56:01.140

It was an open cockpit plane, I don't know how many seats. And so my brother and I were squeezed into one seat and just took a hop over the field. I looked down in the cockpit the whole time so I would not say that inspired me but my father wanted us to have an experience and because he was just part of what his interests

00:56:01.220 - 00:56:22.320

were anything that was going on in the world in that kind of a way. But now we're into really, well let me see how I can put this. I never saw an airplane and thought, "Oh, that, I would like to fly that." No, I never did.

00:56:23.220 - 00:56:45.760

It never occurred to me. The way I got to really being interested in flying was that my brother was at Stevenson Student Technology. They had a civil pilot training program, CPTP, and he was so thrilled to learn to fly.

00:56:45.900 - 00:57:09.960

I think that probably the person in control of the airplane interested him a great deal, but he was a romantic and I think he thought probably everything about it as he looked out and he was imagining what that airplane would do and eventually the future of flight. I'm sure that interested him.

00:57:10.860 - 00:57:34.280

So he got his instructor to take me up during a college vacation and I was so thrilled, of course because he was, but I thought it was wonderful myself. I don't know that it was not more a reflection of his view. And so I was a sophomore at Smith College and so I wanted to fly and it was too expensive

00:57:34.800 - 00:57:49.060

at that time. So I organized, initiated a college flying club where we purchased an airplane. We'll say it was $1,500 at that time. And ten of us put in $100 a piece.

00:57:49.920 - 00:58:04.220

And there was a local airport. It was about five miles away, but we each had, all had bicycles at Smith. So we'd bicycle out five miles. And we'd hire an instructor just for us at a very low rate per hour rather than paying

00:58:04.220 - 00:58:28.680

the big fee that they would charge per hour if you used their aircraft. And so we did learn to fly in the Smith College Flying Club plane. And I recall that the view out the cockpit window was interesting to me. That we'll say I was involved in college, very involved in lots of things.

00:58:28.800 - 00:58:47.360

And you had these things on your mind. It might have been some emotional involvement, it might have been anxiety, it might have been many of these things. And you look at the view out the cockpit window with seeing the college as rather small in

00:58:47.440 - 00:59:01.660

the whole surround of where the college was, that you tended to, you saw it was a continuum, the view out the window. It wasn't parceled into this place and that place and that place. It was a continuum.

00:59:02.820 - 00:59:13.960

And that lasted with me. And whatever it was perhaps that were the anxieties didn't seem important anymore and you didn't really care to revisit them. QF.

00:59:14.360 - 00:59:22.640

Were there other students at Smith flying when you and this other group decided to buy this airplane? AQ. No.

00:59:24.220 - 00:59:34.140

I beat the drums and got the interest, and I got 15 together to do it. There had been a flying club. It was nothing but get together and talk about flying

00:59:35.000 - 00:59:41.780

some years before that. There had been interest. And there were a lot of-- at that time, many colleges had clubs.

00:59:42.120 - 00:59:49.840

Nearby was Amherst. They had an active flying club. And they flew airplanes. I don't think they had their own airplane.

00:59:49.850 - 00:59:57.800

I really don't know. I rather doubt it. And there were intercollegiate meets and so forth. Smith did nothing like that because this was during the war,

00:59:57.880 - 01:00:07.540

of course, I mean beginning during the war. >> But this club was sanctioned by the college? >> That took quite a bit of doing. That's a very clever question, Deney.

01:00:09.480 - 01:00:20.960

We had-- well, we thought-- I thought I had to ask permission, I'm sure I did. And so, I recall a letter, I might even have it in my notes that we wrote to the administration, I did, and said, "Well, yes,

01:00:20.980 - 01:00:29.940

this idea of this college, a very constructive thing. I can tell you why in a minute. I mean, I said to them. But it is very safe.

01:00:30.480 - 01:00:49.700

And we will maintain it that way. And we are going to teach ourselves all the ground school courses and become very proficient in that. There was a nearby air base, and we'll

01:00:50.220 - 01:01:02.440

take courses in how to pack parachutes so that we could be useful in some way. And the reason I can tell you that it's a very good idea of the college to do this

01:01:03.040 - 01:01:18.100

is that because this view out the cockpit window is a continuum where you don't see national boundaries, this is important to put in place now, even before the war ends.

01:01:20.500 - 01:01:29.960

And so how did you learn how to teach ground school? Did you get books and study?

01:01:30.600 - 01:01:39.480

All along, yes, there were the uh... I've forgotten what the present FAA, the predecessor was.

01:01:40.240 - 01:01:49.700

Yes, there were books on subjects, uh... navigation, meteorology, propulsion, whatever.

01:01:49.940 - 01:02:00.440

And yes, those books were there and one studied. I don't think we used auxiliary books. And I think I mentioned just earlier that I had taken a course at the college

01:02:00.560 - 01:02:13.080

in celestial navigation, which was not reflected in the ground school test. But while I was an undergraduate, I got my ground school teacher certificate.

01:02:13.460 - 01:02:21.800

Yes, I did have that. And that was almost, not a mistake, but it almost led me to trouble, which I could tell you about later.

01:02:23.580 - 01:02:35.760

Do you recall your instructor and your solo flight? In flight instructor, no one special. Sweet little boy. And how about your solo, your first solo flight?

01:02:35.780 - 01:02:48.600

Oh, the first solo, that's memorable. I think everybody is just aghast at it, really. It is just so an amazing feeling. I'm not a poet so I won't try to put it into words, but I share

01:02:48.740 - 01:03:06.040

that with everyone who has had first solo. >> As you kept flying, did you keep on flying all the way through until you graduated from Smith? >> Yes. I started sophomore year and I did manage my senior year,

01:03:07.040 - 01:03:18.840

did get my private pilot certificate, yes. >> In the meantime, was your brother flying? >> Oh yes, well my brother had started CPTP and then immediately enlisted in the Air Force.

01:03:19.300 - 01:03:33.180

So he had to stop college. I think he had gone three years and had to stop before his senior year and went to-- in the Air Force and was in Waco, Texas, after-- just after I graduated.

01:03:34.280 - 01:03:40.420

And this is where I was going to tell you about my ground school certificate. Do you have a question or should I-- >> No, go right ahead.

01:03:41.840 - 01:03:58.940

I did have my grounds certificate and the WASP program, of course, was an obvious thing to do. In that summer, right after I graduated, I went into—I worked for a company called American Export Airlines.

01:03:59.000 - 01:04:16.160

It later became Pan Am. It was at LaGuardia Field. It was about a half hour drive from where I lived. And what we did, I was in the operations engineering department, we would take, or flight plans

01:04:16.220 - 01:04:28.880

I suppose you would call it, would pretend that airplanes were going across the North Atlantic. These would be absolutely land planes. All the traffic across the Atlantic was flying boats.

01:04:28.910 - 01:04:43.120

It was quite different. But after the war, they knew that it would be land planes because there would be advances during the war in propulsion, altitudes that aircraft could fly to, and therefore the stronger fuselages and so forth.

01:04:43.620 - 01:04:58.600

So we would take a theoretical airplane, theoretical winds, so forth, and with a slide rule figure gas consumption and just how that plane could go and whether it couldn't. You'd have sheets you've worked up. That was what I did.

01:04:58.600 - 01:05:21.960

And I remember thinking, "Oh my, who's going to be flying across the Atlantic in all these planes that we were doing, and I know I thought it was really quite an amusing thought. QF. What did your mom and dad think about you and your brother flying? AQ. You see, I mentioned to my parents that never did I feel a limitation, never. Never

01:05:22.040 - 01:05:39.780

did I feel a limitation in any way, nor did I feel an influence or pressure to do anything or not to do it. Were you ever able to take them up with you as the pilot? No, I don't think there would have been that opportunity, nor perhaps interest.

01:05:40.060 - 01:05:55.360

I don't mean interest. I mean, they were very interested in us, but we did our thing. They were certainly involved in it. I don't think that they looked on it as such a personal child thing that they would interfere with in any way or be part of.

01:05:55.360 - 01:06:14.740

It was my life. think they thought, "Well, just if I would fly with my daughter or with my son, I don't know, it wasn't that special. I mean, if there were a car we were driving, they'd get in or not, it wouldn't be a point of any special undertaking."

01:06:14.740 - 01:06:30.100

Right. When did you first hear about the WASP training program? That's hard to say. One knew of it. So it was in the air, so to speak.

01:06:30.260 - 01:06:45.240

It was around and about. And I thought that was good. I think probably my brother brought it to my attention. And I was in this job and that was 1943, the summer of 1943.

01:06:46.820 - 01:07:08.160

And someone from the Navy approached me, they knew I had the ground school certificate and said, "Why don't you be an instructor in the Navy?" And I said, "Well, that sounds good, it sounds a little more intellectual than just flying, not that flying isn't nice and I love it."

01:07:08.180 - 01:07:32.980

And I was stopped just short of signing up for that by a telephone call from my brother from Waco. And he said, "Sis, don't do that. Go into the wash. This is the most wonderful opportunity you could possibly have." So I did. And so then that was '43 and by October was it that

01:07:33.060 - 01:07:52.700

we were down in Sweetwater, our class. When you decided to go into training, who interviewed you? Do you recall who interviewed you from the WASP? Biddy: Jacqueline Cochran or her office.

01:07:52.700 - 01:08:04.820

I came down to Washington. I do not know who it was. It was the office that Jacqueline Cochran ran. Do you recall having to take an Army physical?

01:08:06.380 - 01:08:21.680

I do not recall it. I do not think I did anything until I got to Sweetwater, my impression. Did you know any girls who were in training or who had graduated at that point? No, I did not.

01:08:23.240 - 01:08:33.040

Of the ten girls who own this airplane, have you been in contact with those girls over the years? No. No.

01:08:33.820 - 01:08:37.280

Fifteen. Fifteen of you. Yeah. Times a hundred.

01:08:37.400 - 01:08:46.620

Fifteen hundred dollars. Okay. How did you get from Connecticut to Sweetwater, Texas? Flew in a DC-3.

01:08:49.440 - 01:09:10.520

Did you know? you think, what did you expect to gain from going into that WASP training program? I didn't expect to gain anything. As my brother mentioned, it was a wonderful flying experience. Certainly in World War II, everyone did something for the war effort. If that were a war effort

01:09:10.620 - 01:09:26.320

that anyone thought were worthwhile, I'd be very glad to serve in that way. Of course, By that time I very much loved flying. I thought it was just terrific and I was so pleased to be doing that. It was better than teaching the Navy.

01:09:28.250 - 01:09:45.240

DC: When you got to Sweetwater, tell me what happened next. JS: I graduated after some months. What happened next? I am not a good recollection of details.

01:09:46.000 - 01:10:07.060

I did whatever I was supposed to do and I didn't have many reactions to it. I remember shots, disease shots. I remember the baggy zoot suits and all of that. This was just par for the course.

01:10:07.160 - 01:10:28.060

You did whatever that was part of it. In as much as this history has not been recorded in the history books and children, I believe, would be interested in that training program, I'm going to ask you several questions about training that you may remember or may not, but we'll try it.

01:10:29.520 - 01:10:58.420

When you arrived at Avenger Field in Sweetwater to go into training, tell me about where you lived, describe the base in which you lived. It was a concrete floor, probably some sort of wood structure above it, lots of window space that probably was not glass. I don't know, my impression it was green, but it must

01:10:58.420 - 01:11:23.800

have had something because the winters were cooler. And one had a bed, one had a so-called locker alongside it, which is probably out of wood. Often these days one sees them in gyms they are metal. And it is vertical and perhaps had two sides to it. One might have been where you hang clothes and the other had shelves. And that is about it. That is

01:11:23.900 - 01:11:43.680

where we lived. And way down the sidewalk was the latrines and showers. Can you recall your baymates that you lived with? I cannot recall them all, but I know someone who was next door, who actually I had played sports with.

01:11:49.260 - 01:12:06.700

When you arrived, did they tell you what to expect as far as how long you would be in training, what you would be flying? I think they were probably explicit at that. The people who ran the training, as I recall, were civilians.

01:12:06.860 - 01:12:23.040

It was a contract operation with the Air Force. So these people were doing this job for money. I mean, it had to be a commercial enterprise. It was not the Air Force itself, which runs on Air Force funds that are provided.

01:12:24.480 - 01:12:44.580

And they probably did, I think probably the most briefing we would have had would have been in the flying end. That they would introduce you to instructors, that there were three stages of flying, there would be the link trainer, and that I think they probably told you what the rules were

01:12:45.140 - 01:13:05.340

that you had to, about your life on the base, what you had to do and what time you had to get up and that there would be reveille in the morning when you had to get up and it was probably an extremely early hour. I don't know that I would have resented as much as I would now that getting up that early

01:13:05.600 - 01:13:28.020

and certainly you had to go to sleep at an early hour of night because that was tough. And you had mess hall and I don't recall the food one way or the other. I'm sure I was chubby and ate a lot of it down. I do recall one thing I tried to get out of and did in a way--

01:13:28.300 - 01:13:38.080

I don't know that I'm proud of it, but I know that the discipline was there. I mean, the discipline didn't bother me at all, but it was physical education, I think.

01:13:38.120 - 01:13:52.280

And you had to go to gym and do these exercises. And it didn't really appeal to me. There were a lot of mattresses in the gym, so I hid between some mattresses almost suffocating to get out of it.

01:13:52.360 - 01:14:04.120

But I was very pleased I hadn't gotten out of it. But I don't know what it proved. I probably would have been healthier if I'd taken the other gym course. But I guess I liked being a little nonconformist.

01:14:04.780 - 01:14:24.300

>> Okay. When you mentioned that it was a civilian school, however, What the personnel who were in charge of the base itself, were they not Army Air Force? - I believe that they were called establishment officers.

01:14:24.580 - 01:14:35.640

And I tried to think back that my impression is they were not Air Force, that they were hired by the contract. And they were, I try to give an example.

01:14:35.860 - 01:14:44.840

If it were a summer camp, they would be the staff that ran the summer camp. They would get the food, hire people who did that. That was a different part.

01:14:44.900 - 01:14:56.480

We're talking about the establishment officers who would do the bed checks at night. Now I think there was an Air Force person, part of the Air Force who went around with that.

01:14:56.520 - 01:15:08.300

And certainly the Air Force would have done the weekly inspections. - And the commanding officer of the base? - That, I don't have a good recollection of that.

01:15:08.880 - 01:15:29.520

Do you recall as far as check rides when you would finish one course, the check rides that you would have would be with a civilian instructor and then with an Army Air Force check pilot? I don't recall any. They certainly took place.

01:15:31.340 - 01:15:43.320

While you were at Sweetwater, what, seven months? I thought it was a little fewer. We'll say I went in October and I graduated in May. Yeah, exactly.

01:15:43.800 - 01:15:59.040

>> Did your family ever visit you? >> No, they would have been too far away and it would be no point, I think, to them. >> Were you aware of what the girls who had already graduated,

01:15:59.680 - 01:16:16.020

of what they were doing? >> Not really. I don't think I really was, probably not until much later. In your everyday activities at Avenger Field, you mentioned the zoot suits.

01:16:16.980 - 01:16:31.040

What did you wear for dress-up to go to ground school classes, for example? I don't recall. I don't think we wore anything special. I don't think about any kind of a uniform until graduation.

01:16:32.820 - 01:16:44.360

Do you recall any of the ground school courses that you had to take? Bennette: I really do not. I do recall Link Trainer, not very well. Do you recall Morse Code?

01:16:44.950 - 01:16:56.680

Bennette: Oh, yes. But I already had a radio license as a private pilot. So that was a snap for you. Bennette: Well, I thought it was, right.

01:16:58.740 - 01:17:15.540

How you were in training, were any of the girls killed? Do you recall? I believe there was one in a following class, a W6, who was on cross country. I think it was at AT6 stage, and yes, who did spin in.

01:17:17.380 - 01:17:30.700

And along with that girl, are you aware that there were two girls and the other girl had graduated from Smith? No, I did not. I will catch you up on that.

01:17:31.120 - 01:17:41.380

Oh, I know who you mean. She married an Air Force—no? She was married. Okay. Her name was Mary Housam. H-O-W-S-A-M.

01:17:42.060 - 01:17:56.200

I never knew that. Mary Housam. Okay. When you finished your courses and were going to graduate, Tell me about the uniform then that you wore for graduation.

01:17:57.110 - 01:18:06.500

Do you recall that uniform? I don't recall. But you said when we graduated there was a little episode there that I was responsible for the so-called class book

01:18:08.580 - 01:18:18.140

and someone else was helping me with it. She was talented. She was the daughter of the dean of arts and science at the University of Colorado Boulder.

01:18:20.020 - 01:18:36.160

And we'd think and talk and talk about what we're going to do. And the important thing was we thought we could go to the publisher who was-- I've forgotten where it was--

01:18:36.260 - 01:18:43.900

just a little distant from where we were. We were in Sweetwater. It was in a dry county. And if we went to visit the publisher,

01:18:43.970 - 01:18:52.300

we could probably get some beer or something. And I was very-- I kept putting off the book. And then all of a sudden, had to be done, had to be done.

01:18:52.380 - 01:19:00.180

The publication date was up. So Jane died. We all got to-- I have to tell you about a couple of incidents there,

01:19:00.380 - 01:19:10.280

which was the part of our yearbook. I'm going to give you a copy, Nancy. Jane, it was good. She got the idea.

01:19:10.420 - 01:19:19.220

She'd write to her Aunt Hedy. And she'd tell her all about our life, the many years that we were there on the base. But what we had done--

01:19:19.220 - 01:19:29.200

you mentioned the establishment officers and the idea of bed check and so forth. I think that really, to our adult viewpoint, we thought--

01:19:29.200 - 01:19:43.300

probably all of us, but it was part of the discipline, I know. But we did think that the establishment officers, maybe because they were not in the service themselves, maybe they didn't really have much to do during the war.

01:19:43.740 - 01:19:55.320

This is just a guess. They really, we're saying, enjoyed their job. They were enforcers, I think, in a sense. And when they did the bed check, they did it very diligently.

01:19:55.560 - 01:20:08.080

And it was sort of a pain in the neck to us. What we did is create a barnyard. And so the bays you asked me to describe, they were parallel rows with a sidewalk in between and rows.

01:20:08.080 - 01:20:24.500

I don't know how many, maybe eight or 10 rows of bays. And so they would come, say, to our row. And we could time this, and we could know. Someone three rows down would start barnyard calls.

01:20:24.560 - 01:20:34.680

We were very good at it. We were roosters and goats and sheep and cows. And so it was harmless. But so somebody down there had started.

01:20:34.760 - 01:20:52.400

And the establishment officers who were so-- would race down there, foolish people, because then we would start. And they were racing between bays, absolutely, and there was not much they could do about it because they never caught us.

01:20:53.240 - 01:21:06.860

Now the only other thing that you asked, how, did I enjoy the bay? Did you or did I ever get off the bay? Well, I'll tell you one, somehow downtown in Sweetwater, it must have been a hunting store or something like that.

01:21:07.300 - 01:21:19.400

I saw an effigy of a rattlesnake. Little did I know that rattlesnakes were really a scourge in our, where we were, that they were very much to be feared. I didn't realize that.

01:21:20.260 - 01:21:33.900

And so one time before bed check, I placed the rattlesnake on our doorstoop, and the establishment office came down with their flashlight. It hit the beady eyes, and they screamed in horror,

01:21:34.320 - 01:21:50.260

rushed to get the police with a gun. So we knew this was really wonderful because there was no rattlesnake there. And what did I find? They were also upset and just before they shot I said, "Oh, don't shoot."

01:21:50.520 - 01:22:04.600

And I reached out and picked it up and took it in. And the next thing I knew, the whole bay was confined to quarters at the Saturday and everyone loved their Saturday.

01:22:04.700 - 01:22:25.200

So I wrote a letter. And I said, "Dear establishment officers, please do not give demerits and confine to base my bay mates. It was I who put the snake on the door, comma, stoop."

01:22:26.800 - 01:22:34.160

And I got away with it. I don't think I got double. I don't know, I might have. [laughter]

01:22:34.160 - 01:22:54.220

Okay, need to change? Change it? The only other thing where I rebelled in a sentence against the foolishness. Well that was after you quit rolling.

01:22:54.640 - 01:23:01.020

I'm rolling again. Yeah, I want to know about the bugle. >> Yeah, but I haven't finished the other stuff. >> Okay.

01:23:01.020 - 01:23:05.840

>> I can skip it. >> No, no. Hear that first and then the bugle. >> It's not very edifying.

01:23:05.980 - 01:23:12.020

No, let's go about the bugle. >> We can have both of them. >> Go ahead. >> Okay.

01:23:12.190 - 01:23:24.520

>> We're rolling. >> Yes, I was going to tell you that, again, this sort of wish for a little independence that the reveille was played somehow. I don't know how.

01:23:25.040 - 01:23:41.900

But whether it was a -- no, I don't know how it was. But I thought I offered to play Reveille because that - Taps - because then I could get to stay up when everybody had to go to bed. I could wander a little, look, see the stars.

01:23:42.640 - 01:24:07.720

So I learned to play the bugle before I offered and then was asked to play Taps. And then I got a little tired of it. I guess the weather got cold. I found a record of the Reveille and I wrote into the establishment offers, "Day officer, officer of the day, at such and such a time when taps is called for, put this record on

01:24:07.720 - 01:24:27.660

your machine and play it over the loud speaker." And they did. End of story. >> Before, I know I wanted to go back to when you first got to Avenger Field

01:24:28.420 - 01:24:38.680

and you had mentioned something about Jacqueline Cochran and something she said. >> Yes, I did. I think that was probably more just before we graduated.

01:24:39.220 - 01:25:10.380

It was sort of daughters, you were going out into the world and you are a WASP and you have the responsibility of all of us to act in a way that will not reflect poorly on the Corps." And she said, "When you are out and say if you're going to a hotel for whatever reason,

01:25:10.860 - 01:25:21.020

Be sure you take a suitcase with you. That was the end of that story. Did you ever meet Ms. Cochran personally? Oh yes, yes, quite a bit.

01:25:21.620 - 01:25:40.340

It was after the WASP program was deactivated. She lived in New York City. She had started her own firm, Jacqueline Cochran Cosmetics, and she had married Floyd Adlam some years before that, who was a wealthy financier.

01:25:40.830 - 01:25:55.160

And they lived at the East River House on the East River in New York. Had a very nice apartment. She was generous in her entertainment of WASP,

01:25:56.540 - 01:26:15.560

corralling them together. The WASP were then forming-- well the post-WASP program organization, the WASP organization. I remember a lot about that and Jack and Cochran would invite us to any aviation function luncheons

01:26:15.640 - 01:26:32.260

or so or dinners. And my brother was back from the war then and she met him. He came with me to one of them and she took quite a fancy to him. He was really cute and rather in that fashion.

01:26:32.360 - 01:26:45.700

Yes. Let me ask you, when you graduated, did you have a choice of where you would be stationed? I did not think we did, no. No, no.

01:26:46.440 - 01:27:03.460

It was interesting, very interesting to know where you were going to be sent. At one point I had a choice. I know the first place I was, and then that was interrupted. Always, these were two months, stints or so,

01:27:03.760 - 01:27:19.120

is my recollection. I went to Orlando, the Air Force Survival School. And then I think we could be reassigned. I think possibly we did have some choice.

01:27:19.180 - 01:27:29.960

And I asked to be assigned to a place where I could learn some cold water, cold weather operation, and was sent to Pocatello, Idaho. And it turned out that was interesting,

01:27:31.040 - 01:27:43.580

because it was a totara squadron. And one flew over-- they call it craters of the moon, bubbly geologic formations. And they call them craters of the moon,

01:27:43.660 - 01:27:54.600

because they do resemble the craters of the moon. And that turned out to be where astronauts did some of their practice training, because the landscape was so similar.

01:27:56.420 - 01:28:06.760

- When you-- let me back up and ask you, your very first assignment was where? - Freeman Field, Indiana. - And what did you do at Freeman?

01:28:07.300 - 01:28:21.680

- It was twin engine, and they called it test flying. And it was purely that when the aircraft was do for overhaul, it would be overhauled, and you did what you do with a car called slow timing, you flew it.

01:28:22.400 - 01:28:42.060

And it was, in a sense, to be sure that they hadn't left a screwdriver or a wrench in the engine that everything worked all right. And Freeman Field, Indiana, I don't know if you all know that, the geography of it is near Kentucky, and that's not far from the Kentucky Derby track.

01:28:42.260 - 01:28:52.000

So I did my slow timing around the derby track. I don't think a race was going on at the time because I wouldn't be allowed to. But somehow that gave me a bit of a charge

01:28:52.440 - 01:29:07.700

that I was doing something that at least was of interest to me. >> Were there other Wasp stations at Freeman when you arrived? >> One other who was very young, yes. And we didn't want to live on the base.

01:29:07.740 - 01:29:24.840

And I instigated it that I went to some-- well, I went to church one day. And I thought this would be a nice entree to the town. And I asked someone who was active in the church, who

01:29:25.560 - 01:29:36.200

was a part of the whatever the service was that we went to, and asked if it was possible that she could take two of us in as a boarder. And she was very nice.

01:29:36.200 - 01:29:46.980

It was a novel idea. but she did, and that was ever so much nicer. >> And while you were at Freeman, then you got what, temporary orders to go to Orlando?

01:29:47.290 - 01:30:00.220

>> Orlando. >> How was that school? What was it for? >> Survival training was in barracks, tent-like structures

01:30:00.320 - 01:30:12.760

with a wooden bottom, and one learned that if you had to live off the land. This is, of course, for Air Force men. None of us would-- but why we were sent there, I don't know.

01:30:12.840 - 01:30:28.220

I was interested. You ate odd things that you could find around you in the so-called wilderness where you would be. And some were seashore type, kilt, that you'd tune on.

01:30:28.220 - 01:30:42.840

They were really rather good, sea pipes. I've seen them in bars, you know, now with the Asian fusion. I've seen some of these and they're a little salty and there's nothing ooey-gooey about them or anything like that.

01:30:42.900 - 01:30:58.340

And then you ate flowers or oleander and other things that, you know, we could down them. It was perfectly all right. But I was curious as to how they ran it and why they did it in the first place. Yes, I don't know how much I learned, but it was novel.

01:30:59.360 - 01:31:08.940

How long was that course? Oh, a week or two, maybe, perhaps two weeks. And that was too long. And it was in August in Orlando.

01:31:09.720 - 01:31:19.660

And every day-- and there was no air conditioning, of course. And every day, it got so hot and so hot. And then you saw a storm, a thunder. So oh, storm, please storm.

01:31:20.460 - 01:31:31.100

And it stormed. It was hotter because it was humid. But there were help there that washed our shirts each day. So you use at least a shirt a day.

01:31:31.560 - 01:31:40.380

But this was all done for you because you were a quasi second lieutenant. >> Were there a lot of social activities that went on during that time?

01:31:40.380 - 01:31:49.860

>> At Orlando? No. This was for lawn base in the woods. And I don't think you got to town. If you did, there wasn't much there.

01:31:49.880 - 01:31:58.600

It was the early days. I don't think it would have had much attraction. >> And from Orlando then you were sent to Pocatello? >> No, there were

01:32:27.760 - 01:32:57.360

one and some were very, very nice. One was a semi-beau. Well, I don't know how he felt and I don't know how I felt, but he was nice, brotherly, maybe more I don't know. Do you remember to whom you reported at Pocatello? No, I do not. It was a P-47 squadron and there would have been our squadron leader, but I

01:32:57.240 - 01:33:20.740

were thinking because I had to be on the base, it would be the P-47 commander who would assign me or so forth. And oh yes, there was a nice officers club. >> Okay. And what was your assignment? >> Well, it was the tow target squadron and I was -- because I was not qualified on the B-46, I was a co-pilot.

01:33:20.740 - 01:33:28.900

>> Okay. On a what airplane? I'm sorry. >> B-46. No, B-26. I beg your pardon.

01:33:29.120 - 01:33:42.080

You're right. Were you ever a school teacher? You're going to catch them here early. >> Okay. Describe for me a mission that you might fly in that B-26.

01:33:42.170 - 01:34:01.420

>> All right. I'll give you the one that had a little difficulty. or the B-26 would take off, and we'd go over the crater of the moon, we'd climb to altitude. I don't really recall what that altitude was, 6,000 feet?

01:34:02.080 - 01:34:15.720

Couldn't be much higher because then oxygen would come into play. And we would get where we were supposed to be. There's radio contact with the fighter pilot trainees. And we would reel out a target.

01:34:15.860 - 01:34:31.160

A target looks like a windsock, and you reel it out, I don't know, a couple hundred feet behind the aircraft. And the P-47 fighter pilots are supposed to-- I don't know how many there were, five or six, seven,

01:34:31.360 - 01:34:43.100

don't know-- would take turns. And a sideways approach to the target. They had a camera-- they had on the stick that guided the plane would be

01:34:43.680 - 01:34:54.440

a couple of buttons you press. When they wanted to shoot at the target, let their live bullets go, they were, as I say, color coded. Each plane had a different color, would press a button.

01:34:54.520 - 01:35:11.920

And at the same time as their live ammunition went, a camera gun would take a shot of what they were aiming at. This was obviously for precaution, to be sure they were doing their trajectory, so to speak,

01:35:12.000 - 01:35:26.020

the way they should have. And when there had been however many rounds, we would reel in the target, return to base. The firepower, who were so anxious to succeed,

01:35:26.760 - 01:35:38.860

would race back to base. And when they'd landed, would really would make haste to inspect the target to see how well their ammunition--

01:35:38.950 - 01:35:48.120

we got there before them and checked the camera gun to see if there were any nice pictures of the airplane, which would have meant that they were shooting from straight behind us.

01:35:48.760 - 01:35:59.480

And you say just describe a particular mission. This was one where this person was a pilot who I mentioned. There was a little liaison. His foot was shot off.

01:36:00.680 - 01:36:09.440

A shot had gone astray. It was shot. And he said to me, you could have landed it. I would have talked you through it.

01:36:09.480 - 01:36:27.440

I didn't because I really didn't feel that capable of doing it and certainly under those circumstances and he could manage. I helped him in every way I could, but he called the shots. And it turned out, yes, it's very sad, his foot had to be amputated and so then he had

01:36:27.440 - 01:36:37.740

to go into some other profession. Altogether he became a doctor that does optometry. Optometry? No, he's better than that.

01:36:37.740 - 01:36:44.220

>> Ophthalmologist. >> Yeah, ophthalmologist, right. >> And this was the pilot of your plane? >> The pilot, yes.

01:36:44.300 - 01:36:53.460

I was co-pilot, yes, on one mission. >> Right, and when you were in the-- >> Wait a minute now. You're right to catch me up on that.

01:36:53.880 - 01:37:05.500

I was scheduled to fly that mission. Yes, this was the big point. And for some reason they changed the crew, that one, and I was not on that mission, that's true.

01:37:07.020 - 01:37:22.960

and that was the unfortunate one for him. And I guess I said, "It's good I wasn't on it," because he said, "I would have helped you. You could have done it." He was a very, very fine boy. Kelly: Were there other assignments that you had at that base, for example?

01:37:23.090 - 01:37:46.500

Brennan: That was it. No, that was our job. Kelly: And you lived in the nurses' quarters. How were you treated by the nurses? Fine. I don't recall, I don't think I happened to make friends with them or anything like that. I think it was, they were very busy, a nurse always is, and I don't know what I

01:37:46.620 - 01:38:07.260

did. I would amuse myself whatever way I could. There was really no need for social contact as far as I could see. It was pleasant whenever I saw them. I bet they were older. you were at Pocatello, at some point you learned that the WASPs were going to be deactivated. How did you learn that?

01:38:07.860 - 01:38:32.580

Biddy: Yes, indeed. I do not recall. I do not recall whether the commander at the base told me, whether we all got orders or anything like that. I really do not recall. Do you recall how you felt about it? No, I really don't because you're helpless if that's what they did and so there must

01:38:32.640 - 01:38:41.480

have been a reason. I don't think I thought that way. I'm not always sure. I think that whatever reason someone else has based on something I don't know, I'm not

01:38:41.620 - 01:38:57.360

sure that that's a wise decision on their part because there's no way of knowing. >> Right. While you were at Pocatello, did you have any contact with other WASPs at other bases, or did any of them ever fly into your base, or did Miss Cochran ever fly into your base?

01:38:57.410 - 01:39:17.360

>> No, except for on -- after that telegram, if that's what it was, came forward about notification of deactivation. There was a further notice that a WASP, another WASP from somewhere, I don't recall where, maybe Boise, Idaho, I just don't know.

01:39:17.580 - 01:39:35.400

I don't know if Watts was there, would come in and that we would fly out together. The Air Force, yes, the Air Force gave us the use of their craft to fly to whatever field of military air transport would be nearest our home base. And that was a wonderful time, that flight out.

01:39:36.320 - 01:39:54.420

Did the commanding officer at Pocatello do anything else to, I'm not sure what the word is, to honor you as having been a WASP at that base? No silver handshake, no. Nothing.

01:39:54.780 - 01:40:10.300

But I don't know that that was in the cards, I really don't. He had his tow target squadron, he had his fighter pilots, he was in the midst of war. No ticker tape parade. No.

01:40:11.440 - 01:40:27.060

I would never have expected it really. When you left that base, then did you go home for that Christmas that was just before Christmas? Yes. And at that point was your brother there?

01:40:28.620 - 01:40:36.380

Do you recall? - Yes, was-- - Was your brother at home that Christmas? - Oh yes, oh yes. My brother went all through the war, yes, and came home.

01:40:36.460 - 01:40:49.740

Yes, he was a pilot in the CBI, the China, Burma, India. And he was a wonderful pilot, he was most decorated, and he loved it. I think he called his airplane Mission Happy.

01:40:50.340 - 01:40:59.420

And I have that photo that perhaps you've seen in the Greenwich Magazine. It's Tip Nancy. It showed him, you know, smiling with his crew.

01:40:59.500 - 01:41:20.100

You could tell the crew just adored him, in a sense he was such fun to be with. He was a pilot in a way like Lindbergh was, because I recall as a youth what he did, when I saw him as I was younger. But as a pilot, he would talk about how he loved his fly.

01:41:20.260 - 01:41:40.000

What he liked to do was see how far that plane could go, see a true test pilot approach, what he could do with it. And I think he took a P-47 and spun it because he knew he could. But he had worked up to it bit by bit by bit and knew exactly what the plane could do and

01:41:40.060 - 01:41:56.040

he with it. I noticed beforehand one time as he was very young, probably not, my brother and I each drove cars, knew how to in the woods before we could be of age to get a license. I saw him, we had a two-car garage.

01:41:56.260 - 01:42:14.960

He'd take the other car out and he would take his car in and get it into the most impossible positions and then get it out. What he was doing was seeing how far you turn the wheel, see what the effect, how you could maneuver with the least possible maneuvering and still clear the obstacle.

01:42:15.000 - 01:42:32.360

He was sounding that car out in every dimension of its operation envelope. >> Were you ever able to fly together? >> Yes, after the war. Not together, together, but somewhat like.

01:42:34.760 - 01:42:48.740

We each decide, it must have been his decision, let's all get these war surplus airplanes. Let's, you and I get an AT6. And my father, you know, so we were going to, I'll tell you,

01:42:48.740 - 01:43:01.520

you know all about getting war surplus airplanes. And we went down to some field in Carolina, some place. And here are all the war surplus planes, stack 86s. And he'd walk through the rows.

01:43:01.580 - 01:43:09.420

And you chose your airplane, kicked the tires. There wasn't much you had. I don't know that you had much of a maintenance record. It was really up to you.

01:43:10.120 - 01:43:17.820

And we each did this independently. Of course, he looked at my plane. But he knew he trusted me to do this. And we each did.

01:43:17.880 - 01:43:29.700

And then we decided we would not fly formation back. that it would be much better not to be so constrained. Each flew back and I think our aircraft were at Westchester County Airport.

01:43:30.660 - 01:43:43.560

And we told my father of that and he said, "That's very nice. You got it for so very little money, did you?" And he said, "And how much fuel does it burn?" It's, "Oh, 40 gallons a now."

01:43:43.560 - 01:43:58.700

He said, "How much is fuel a gallon?" And this went on. And so we thought, "Well, what have we done?" And we did enjoy flying, but I know I placarded mine in case of minor emergency bailout because

01:43:58.780 - 01:44:17.980

they could not afford the insurance and so forth. So I did not use it much, forty gallons an hour, but it was fun to have and then I sold it and he did his. Kelly: When you first got out of the WASP and went back to Greenwich, what did you do

01:44:18.020 - 01:44:27.540

first? Did you get a job? - No, actually I was living in New York at the time and I wanted to get my flight instructor rating.

01:44:27.760 - 01:44:37.080

One could do that not exactly automatically but your time in the service counted. I don't recall the details now but I suppose you would certainly have to have

01:44:37.300 - 01:44:48.680

demonstrate your ability to teach. So I imagine it was something like that. And yes, I did get my flight instructor rating and arranged contact Connecticut College

01:44:49.920 - 01:45:06.080

which was on the Thames River above New London, and asked them if they would like to have a summer program that would teach ground school and flying. There was a local airport

01:45:07.040 - 01:45:15.720

and it would be under aegis of the college. I was interested in aviation education. And they said, yes, they would be very glad to do that. And they offered the course.

01:45:16.220 - 01:45:34.980

And it was open to students and others round about. I know that, I can't recall how many students I had. One was an Iranian boy and one was a, I thought was so old at the time, a 60-year-old grandmother who lived

01:45:35.060 - 01:45:50.640

and had a house that she did the, you know, it grew vegetables and farming. And it turned out later, I found out that her two children, boy and girl had gone to Putney summer camp, so it was a bit of a liaison.

01:45:51.180 - 01:46:17.920

Yes and so I did run the ground school under the college and the flight school. Yes and then that was the summer aviation program and then thought to get a job and because I had experience running the Smith Flying Club, I had at the time realized that you needed to learn something to run something like the Smith Club,

01:46:18.600 - 01:46:30.060

you could find out from an insurance company. Reason insurance company would help you, safety department, it was one insurance company, it was heads above any of the others that had a safety department, it was Aero Insurance Underwriters.

01:46:31.140 - 01:46:42.900

And I had used their how to run a flying club, and they gave such very good advice. And of course, they want you if they insure you not to crash because they save money if you don't.

01:46:43.700 - 01:46:55.600

And I did join the engineering department. And let me see about that. Yes, the engineering department. I would do -- I was assistant to the chief engineer.

01:46:56.180 - 01:47:08.160

So I would get this and that project to do and enjoyed very much carrying it out. What were these jobs like? I'm not so sure I could recall one or the other,

01:47:08.300 - 01:47:19.120

but they were interesting. And they thought what I was good at was being willing to pursue whatever it was and find out a lot about it. And that turned out to be something

01:47:19.200 - 01:47:32.920

that others didn't do all that well, and that was one thing. And the person who headed the insurance department, chief engineer of insurance, a person I later was associated so I've been associated with him for something 20 years.

01:47:34.700 - 01:47:46.380

And it turned out the insurance company had to go out of business because there was something antitrust. that a lot of the insurance companies joined together to have this engineering department.

01:47:46.540 - 01:48:01.660

That was in violation of antitrust regulations. And at the same time, before it went out of business, quite well before, Lawrence Rockefeller, who had property in the Virgin Islands and many shares

01:48:01.700 - 01:48:14.520

in Eastern Airlines, realized people were afraid to fly. Obviously, their fear of flight detracted from his resort in the Virgin Isles. The only way to get there is to fly.

01:48:15.500 - 01:48:37.120

He approached the head of the engineering department and said, would you head some nonprofit foundation in some way to work on safety so that it would reinforce public trust and faith in flying?

01:48:37.840 - 01:48:44.980

And so we did. And he asked me to be the first employee of that, and the only one from the engineering department to come to it.

01:48:45.380 - 01:48:56.860

And I did start that. And it's what's now called Flight Safety Foundation. It's international. It's marshaling all the organizations

01:48:57.280 - 01:49:11.820

involved in aviation, not only commercial aviation. That would be the manufacturers and the operators, the airlines, the maintenance people. It would be government bureaus, the Federal Aviation Administration,

01:49:12.000 - 01:49:26.580

the National Transportation Safety Board, and their counterparts in other countries. And it would be schools, insurance companies, services, other services that eventually would take the food producers,

01:49:26.820 - 01:49:35.780

the regional airlines, the feeder airlines, airport operators. And it was to improve safety. Shall I go on? Is it boring?

01:49:37.180 - 01:50:00.060

because this is an area that I can't ask you questions because I don't know the right questions to ask. What the challenge was, I mentioned about the operations engineering at American Overseas Airlines. Well, this was coming into fruition now. The DC-4s and then later the DC-6s would be the aircraft that would fly across the ocean.

01:50:02.180 - 01:50:24.460

There have been many advances during World War II, propulsion, higher altitude operation, pressurized cabin, therefore stronger cabin structure. And the pilots who would fly these land planes had two things

01:50:24.460 - 01:50:31.200

in common. One, they had been former Air Force pilots, which means they had not flown, that not had experience flying over water,

01:50:32.700 - 01:50:48.420

that the flying boat captains would have, if they had to land-- was called ditching at that point-- midway, they couldn't fly nonstop-- could they choose a heading that would help the passengers escape

01:50:48.680 - 01:51:00.320

and avoid damage to the aircraft? There's a lot involved in that. A person who's familiar with the sea would know that the wave motion is not necessarily aligned

01:51:00.460 - 01:51:11.400

with the wind motion and direction. They can be quite counter to each other. For instance, landing on a runway on land across wind is a little bit to contend with.

01:51:11.420 - 01:51:25.520

You have to learn a little bit different techniques. And so one of the programs I initiated was to take land plane pilots, ex-military, who would be flying this aircraft,

01:51:25.970 - 01:51:41.340

how would they gain the training? I approached the United States Coast Guard and asked them to conduct classes and also some experience in how a pilot could determine the best ditching heading,

01:51:41.710 - 01:51:52.800

should he have to ditch. And also approached the predecessor to NASA, which at that time, NACA, National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics.

01:51:53.500 - 01:52:05.180

They had test basins. Actually, one was at Stevens Institute of Technology. And they would take holes-- that is, the fuselage of an aircraft--

01:52:05.180 - 01:52:14.980

with any configuration. Configuration means how it's set up, or the wheels down, or up, so forth. And they would do tests with model aircraft,

01:52:15.200 - 01:52:27.700

ditching, to see what they could do to tell a pilot how to lessen the damage to the aircraft. And they also could report that back to the manufacturers. So that would improve it there.

01:52:28.060 - 01:52:41.580

That was one of the principal contributions I made in the early days of Flight Safety Foundation. There were others, too. What got you interested in space travel?

01:52:44.780 - 01:52:57.460

Because after some years with Flight Safety Foundation-- this was now 1947-- The space program had not come forward. The space program came forward, the first manned space flight

01:52:57.460 - 01:53:13.320

by Russia was 1957. The American first manned space flight is 1959. So that would have meant I'd been to Flight Safety Foundation about 12 years and had earned a reputation in safety,

01:53:13.820 - 01:53:23.760

search and rescue, overseas, ditching, other things as well. One was flight instruction. I had made some innovations there, quite a few others. But we'll deal with this topic.

01:53:24.580 - 01:53:39.580

So the space program came forward. And I was well known for the Flight Safety Foundation work. There was, at that time, manned space flight in America in those early years.

01:53:40.060 - 01:53:56.800

There was no rescue capability as such. if a pilot encountered an emergency condition in space, the spacecraft had to come back because there's no way for another spacecraft to come to its aid.

01:53:57.300 - 01:54:12.060

There were no provisions for what to do in such an emergency. Some came up later, and that was a part of the spacecraft that they could go to that would be safe haven, that would be protected and have a life support system,

01:54:12.680 - 01:54:24.200

that sort of thing. But because of my previous background, people ask me, well there's the thing of spacecraft coming down and ditch, so to speak, ditching.

01:54:24.280 - 01:54:39.560

That's similar to what an aircraft would ditch. Would you take care of that point? At which point, that point was when the spacecraft, the astronaut or cosmonaut in the case of the Russian, would need to return

01:54:39.640 - 01:54:51.920

to Earth in emergency conditions. And I did look into it and read as much as I could about it. There was a little background I had that I could call on that would intuitively give you some leads.

01:54:53.200 - 01:55:09.580

And my recommendation was that you stay in space, after all, a whole circumnavigation of the Earth is one hour, and land at a spot where whatever it is you need could come to your aid and give them time to get there.

01:55:10.220 - 01:55:26.680

And meanwhile, the space systems that existed, satellite communication, could tell those on the ground who would come to the rescue what the nature of the emergency was, what needed to be done to aid them on return to Earth.

01:55:27.340 - 01:55:45.720

So I did a great deal of that. I was recognized and became chairman of an international committee that studied this, but mostly it brought forward an annual symposium where this discussion could come in, could take place.

01:55:46.560 - 01:56:09.840

The reason this was important is you would say, well, NASA would solve that problem. There are many things that happen within organizations, bureaucracies. We saw this with the Challenger disaster, how that came about. actually bureaucratic action where those who are responsible will do everything

01:56:09.910 - 01:56:23.780

in their power to do it, that's true, and they're well-trained. But do they communicate across the board? Maybe it's a -- they call it a vertical communication. Whoever is on top will ask who's lower and so forth.

01:56:23.880 - 01:56:38.720

But do people walk down to the next office and know what they know and how much that could inform them to do it? This symposium served that purpose. People from NASA could come and say what they wished.

01:56:38.750 - 01:56:56.860

They were not subject to veto by their own bureaucracy. It was a free exchange of information. And what came of that really were, well, two things, and that it improved the response and the need for response

01:56:56.870 - 01:57:08.280

to rescue of astronauts in emergency. The astronauts were very much for this. They would be the ones abandoned in space. So since they were the most concerned, I contacted them

01:57:08.870 - 01:57:18.340

and got lots of support for this. And they thought that was fine. And an example of how that worked out is they invited me to address their Congress in, of all places, Saudi Arabia.

01:57:19.420 - 01:57:34.780

And this was an interesting -- because women, you know, really are not allowed in any way publicly to be seen with men. But what this did was to alert people really and build

01:57:34.900 - 01:57:53.620

up a public understanding and perhaps political response to the need to respond to rescue. And of course, these were addressed in later years. Rescue. We now have in being a crew return vehicle that does

01:57:53.690 - 01:58:05.120

such a thing to go from Earth to space to come to the aid of a spacecraft. And there were other notions put forward on study that you would take a mission, you would be a buddy mission,

01:58:05.280 - 01:58:12.700

two would go, two craft, so then you have redundancy and if one, something happened to one, there was the other in place. That was just a notion.

01:58:12.840 - 01:58:21.440

It was never acted upon. But am I going too long? >> No. >> And so one thing that I was chairman of this committee

01:58:21.560 - 01:58:35.080

and ran, brought this symposium for, invited speakers who I had noted had something to contribute and who would gain from a discussion with their peers. And one thing I noticed was whatever

01:58:36.040 - 01:58:51.260

is true that what should come to the aid of astronauts in Earth return when they landed on Earth, alighted, ditching land or sea, were the same that would be needed should--

01:58:51.260 - 01:59:07.720

Same systems should populations on Earth who are vulnerable to disaster, some of the less developed countries subject to flood, hurricane, tornado, these kinds of natural disasters.

01:59:08.540 - 01:59:21.400

Because when a disaster occurs, do they get warning? Does the general environment know rescuers who are willing to come? Do they know what is needed?

01:59:21.580 - 01:59:35.420

What is the nature of the emergency? We'll say there's been an earthquake in Venezuela. This is an actual-- all the communication lines on land are disrupted.

01:59:35.660 - 01:59:48.840

So there's no communication from the site. Fly in an Earth communication satellite so that people on the spot, paramedics can respond, have some means of communication.

01:59:49.660 - 02:00:00.920

communicate out to say how bad the damage is. Have overflying remote sensing. Remote sensing means you don't have to be right there. For instance, Nancy has a camera.

02:00:01.060 - 02:00:12.980

She's right here. She's taking a view of me. You put a satellite with remote sensing. It's a camera, just like Nancy, way up in space in Earth orbit.

02:00:13.480 - 02:00:25.040

It takes a view. And it's not perhaps a photograph, but in any case, It is a view of Earth. It may be in other spectrum of the radio frequency.

02:00:25.500 - 02:00:40.320

Never mind that. It's just another way of viewing other energies than camera. And they can see what buildings are left intact, shelters. What water bodies there are which in time will be polluted

02:00:40.860 - 02:00:58.400

and medical disaster. What roads lead in and lead out. And this is all the things that the rescuers can respond to. So that gradually, because of the symposium I ran,

02:00:58.400 - 02:01:18.980

I made it a twofold one, not only space safety and rescue, but earth disaster, worldwide earth disaster, utilizing space systems for prevention and response. And this came into being in a rather large way,

02:01:19.030 - 02:01:42.220

and bit by bit over the years it was paid attention to and became the foundation for the UN's declaration of a decade, national -- N-D-N-D-R -- national -- natural disaster prevention. A decade for natural disaster prevention.

02:01:43.740 - 02:02:06.680

And that has just ended, 10 years, where attention is paid to the vulnerabilities of less advantaged nations subject to disaster, how they can be helped by not only the rescue system, but particularly prevention. I noticed in some of the material that I read, you formed your own company at one point.

02:02:06.940 - 02:02:42.860

Yes, at some point I did, and that was when Flight Safety Foundation had a leader who had been an ex-Air Force general who thrust aside many of the very valuable associations and liaisons that Flight Safety Foundation had developed. I had led the, I would say just one thing there, why he had torn much asunder and was

02:02:42.940 - 02:03:00.960

destructive. World War II, many countries around the world wanted to have their own national airline. There was great feeling of wanting to be themselves, although a small country, part of the international air system, airline operation.

02:03:02.040 - 02:03:12.460

Our American people were very well trained and had resources, many resources, government behind them and all sorts of resources and expertise.

02:03:13.580 - 02:03:29.800

Not so with the less developed countries. Had not experienced flying, very meager resources. So you asked the question, was America in a good position? and America, Britain, Holland, other countries

02:03:29.920 - 02:03:40.720

with developed countries in the aircraft operations. No. Why? Because we're in the same airspace

02:03:41.000 - 02:03:49.200

as these other countries. And all are vulnerable. And so how to make it safer raised all up to the level of the best.

02:03:50.020 - 02:04:07.940

And that's what Flight Safety Foundation had done. and what I had led in the communication, international communication with all these other countries to share because it's in your interest. It's not only Ilya Mazunary charitable, it's in the interest of all.

02:04:08.540 - 02:04:29.400

And it's a question of this is what has been what propelled me to do all I do and how I could do it was because I could see that, that it was in the interest of all to bring all up to the level of best. Where are we?

02:04:29.490 - 02:04:43.620

And that means we ought to share technology with other nations that we might not want to share. Ah, see, now that's the question. I said, "What do you mean when you teach these students, are they ahead of you in any way?"

02:04:43.620 - 02:04:54.800

I mean, he's so good, he's been in it, he knows everything. And I said, "Do they ever ask questions? Where do they get the information if they're not so nice questions?"

02:04:54.800 - 02:05:03.020

He said, "From the internet." And I said, "What questions do they ask?" He speaks slowly. "What questions do they ask?"

02:05:07.940 - 02:05:25.160

"Iraq." And he says, "International law is no basis for a country to invade another country." And he tells them that and he is very diplomatic of course to me and I said, "Well, a lot of you don't have to worry about us."

02:05:25.160 - 02:05:36.980

And he said, "Yes, I disavow the American approach." He tells them, it's not based on the law. Oh, that's just one example. Where were we, Nancy?

02:05:37.380 - 02:05:46.300

>> I just need to interject. You didn't really explain about why you quit flight safety. >> Right, tell me where I was, Caldera. We're all in the same airspace.

02:05:47.100 - 02:05:56.520

Yeah, so you asked me about technology. I'll just say a little bit more about that, because-- tell me when you're ready. Oh, I'm ready.

02:05:56.660 - 02:06:02.480

Oh. Yes, ma'am. Yes, I was saying that a person had come in who didn't-- to head Flight Safety Foundation--

02:06:02.880 - 02:06:21.440

did not understand the validity of seeing what are the interests of your own interests, But look carefully to see what are the interests of others and how they can work together for good.

02:06:21.620 - 02:06:35.620

This is the point, how this all can work together for good. I have something I'd like to say a little later about how this could be played out, how it played out in a way philosophically in my life and how it could

02:06:35.990 - 02:06:50.900

in the lives of people who may see this tape years from now. But again, we're talking about this sharing of experience. The way the sharing of experience in aviation was done was if there were-- when there was an accident,

02:06:52.880 - 02:07:05.220

what Fly Safe Foundation did is not-- had a brainwashing system that you could take the incident and you could not attribute it. There was no way you would know to which airline it went

02:07:05.280 - 02:07:13.320

or which individuals were involved. You're not looking for blame. You're finding out the cause. Now, if you find out the cause, we'll

02:07:13.400 - 02:07:22.720

say there are 10 types of aircraft operating. This is just suppositional. An accident happens to one of them. How many other operators around the world

02:07:22.780 - 02:07:29.700

have that same aircraft? Many. And they can't all have the same-- wait till they have an accident to learn from it.

02:07:30.320 - 02:07:39.000

So you're preventing accidents when whatever can be learned from one accident may involve equipment that manufacturers made. Perhaps it's faulty.

02:07:39.100 - 02:07:44.380

Perhaps it's not. Perhaps it's the way it was operated. Perhaps it's the way it was maintained. Perhaps many things.

02:07:44.920 - 02:07:57.880

But to find out what it is that has caused the accident. And you might say, that's wonderful. And that will save accidents. Is there anything else that you could

02:07:57.920 - 02:08:03.520

do until you don't have to wait for an accident? Two things. Incidents. They're not accidents.

02:08:03.700 - 02:08:16.640

They're little things that go wrong. And you exchange incidents. That's on the same wavelength as accident reporting. But if you're very careful and original in your thinking,

02:08:17.240 - 02:08:28.460

you would say, well, there's some pilots of that aircraft who don't have accidents. And yet, perhaps their exposure is such that one might expect them to have a worse record

02:08:28.540 - 02:08:40.100

than they do. What is it they're doing right? This is all part of this system. And so if you get into after aviation--

02:08:40.140 - 02:08:49.160

oh, what this person did who came in-- The person that came in. Yeah, the person who came in. No, I was talking about how accidents, incidents, and then

02:08:49.160 - 02:09:01.880

you find out what's going right. And so if you try and say, is there anything like that-- I think, Nancy, you weren't on hearing on the-- but you asked about, perhaps nowadays,

02:09:02.300 - 02:09:13.060

about sharing technology, I think that one has found, if you look at the patents issued, are they all American? Oh, no.

02:09:14.060 - 02:09:25.680

Who are the countries who have a very good patent record? These are original thinkers. Where does the original thinking come from? Might it exist, and that we, that America,

02:09:26.940 - 02:09:41.800

may not be the only ones who do it? And in fact, as I think people in science know, that if you don't share, particularly in science, with other nations and their ways of studying,

02:09:41.920 - 02:09:56.220

they may be very, very far advanced than you are. And you're going to learn a lot from them. And the only way you can is to exchange information. The people who are involved are so

02:09:56.220 - 02:10:12.980

interested and enthusiastic in sharing this information because it's not a question of profit or not profit, they know how important it is. There's often a sort of an adage that you think safety is important. Say you're talking to the airline president.

02:10:13.160 - 02:10:29.160

I mean this isn't good, it's just an illustration. You think safety is costly? Try having an accident, what it causes and the outflow and so forth from it. So yes, I did start my own company because the person who came into Direct Flight Safety

02:10:29.380 - 02:10:47.340

Foundation lost this touch of communicating with others and exchanging. Rather, close down, try and make money the way we could through memberships but not give very much in return. Yes, I did.

02:10:47.600 - 02:11:01.200

I resigned after 18 years. And at that time there was no real retirement fund except my own. But it happened I could survive. Yes, I started my own company.

02:11:01.840 - 02:11:18.780

And of course it's SAR Assist, as you mentioned. S is in Sam, A is in Abel, R is in Roger, and then hyphen assist, SAR, search and rescue. And I did several things. Still interested in, of course, aviation safety.

02:11:20.620 - 02:11:44.680

There was an operation at NASA, a program at NASA, when they flew nuclear-powered craft. The nuclear power package, as they call it, were expensive. And if there were a launch failure, say off Canaveral, was more the Air Force operated Canaveral, it was worth retrieving it.

02:11:44.840 - 02:11:58.020

And NASA inventors came upon a design that it was called an underwater locator. It was an acoustic system. You could hear it. And it was attached to the power package.

02:11:58.880 - 02:12:09.520

And a boat trolling above the downed power package, the object you wish to retrieve, could hear a sound. It's called a pinger. Bing, bing.

02:12:10.220 - 02:12:25.760

And this is usual in marine work. And the power package could be retrieved. That was a NASA invention and NASA never kept these things for commercial gain. It couldn't.

02:12:25.900 - 02:12:40.660

It was funded by public funds. It offered that to the commercial industry. A company called Duquesne got it. They made overhead, NASA, you know, overhead projectors and that sort of thing for schools

02:12:40.660 - 02:12:51.580

and many other types of products. They didn't know what to do with it. They hadn't got the rights to it. And I contacted them because-- well, in fact, they asked me,

02:12:52.080 - 02:12:58.640

well, how will we do with it? I said, well, that's very easy. You attach it to the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder.

02:12:59.160 - 02:13:11.600

And they said, oh, why didn't we think of that? Well, I think there's a reason. And this is what I wanted to say toward the end when I wind up, that it's very easy to see who could benefit.

02:13:11.700 - 02:13:19.800

We all benefit together. This is the point. And how are the ways of involving people to help them all?

02:13:20.320 - 02:13:33.580

And of course, you think that way, and then you see that Duquesne has this, and what it does. This is a natural, that all things can work together to get this really in use and be of great effectiveness.

02:13:35.060 - 02:13:46.240

And it's a way of looking at things, which I'll sum up later. So that was one. And it was all very well that Duquesne got this. And they had a use for it.

02:13:46.290 - 02:13:56.980

Would the airlines adopt it? You say, here are these other motivating forces that are detractors, impediments, probably not promoters for increased safety.

02:13:57.620 - 02:14:10.340

Would the airlines put it on? Costs? This was an impediment. One thing was to approach the National Transportation Safety

02:14:10.640 - 02:14:25.080

Board and the FAA to get-- I think everyone knows that-- the Federal Aviation Administration. Well, they issue the licenses and so forth.

02:14:25.180 - 02:14:43.420

They regulate aviation. They put out a rule for proposed rule, a notice of proposed rulemaking where they said there is this underwater acoustic locator. It has these advantages.

02:14:44.160 - 02:15:02.460

Would you all respond, airlines, anyone who wishes, up to a deadline? And I did contact the National Transportation Safety Board and yes, of course they were for the flight data recorder being retrieved and urged them to respond to the notice of proposed rulemaking.

02:15:02.460 - 02:15:16.900

I responded on behalf of SAR Assist. And in due course it passed and it became a regulation for all commercial aircraft and gradually business aircraft and on down the line. So that was one thing.

02:15:18.280 - 02:15:36.560

Another was that I noticed in survival kits, well not survival kits, I got involved in that in Texaco at an operation for oil exploration in Peru. It was over a very dense jungle. Equipment was flown in by helicopter and men, but mainly equipment.

02:15:37.300 - 02:15:53.500

And if a helicopter became inoperative above the jungle, you could never find it. it would be lost, covered over. They wanted some sort of a locator beacon that could stay above the jungle canopy.

02:15:54.160 - 02:16:07.140

And I was in touch with lots of people. And yes, there was a device somebody said he could do, because he knew certain little principles, little things. Not a big-- just one person who could do that.

02:16:07.140 - 02:16:15.380

And they introduced him to Texaco. And together they worked on it. Yes, that was the system they used. So I was interested in survival, you might say.

02:16:16.480 - 02:16:25.420

And I made survival packs for Texaco. They wanted little small packs that could fit in their helicopters. If a person were downed, he'd have

02:16:25.440 - 02:16:39.620

some means of utilizing the environment around him to stay alive until help would come, and means of attracting rescue. I think people who fly today know about crash locator

02:16:39.940 - 02:16:55.220

beacons. And I was active in that in another way, which I could tell you about very briefly. But one of the pieces of survival equipment I noticed offered for survival kits was called chemiluminescence.

02:16:55.340 - 02:17:05.500

It was a tube that had two different—the correct way to phrase it is two immiscible liquids. That means they can't mix. They're not able to mix.

02:17:05.600 - 02:17:20.740

They're in separate compartments in the tube. If you need some light, now here you don't have batteries, you don't have to worry about the battery life or replacing them. You just bend the tube, you don't break it, it doesn't take much effort, but you break

02:17:20.740 - 02:17:28.180

it. It has to be sufficient so it doesn't go off inadvertently. You bend it. The two liquids mix and give off a light.

02:17:28.620 - 02:17:37.280

It's similar to what a lightning bug has. In this case it's chemical. Chemical luminescence. A kind of a luminescence.

02:17:37.520 - 02:17:51.400

light as equivalent to a candle and you could see your way and of course no fire danger and so forth. That was when Remington Arms had the license to produce it. That was a DuPont company.

02:17:52.520 - 02:18:19.180

And again I was a consultant to them and I asked if they had thought of several things, fire departments, in the smoke, increases the conspicuity or in the darkness. And it was for a time used on airlines, a strip that if there were an emergency and the lights went out that it could lead you to an evacuation slide.

02:18:20.740 - 02:18:29.620

That was another. No that's about the end of my story. Yeah? >> The crash locator beacons?

02:18:29.940 - 02:18:46.500

>> Are you going to say about the crash locator beacon? >> Oh the crash locator beacon. >> Yes, yes, because that is quite a story. There -- I'm trying to think of his name.

02:18:46.540 - 02:18:53.160

He was a lawmaker. I had it in mind. He was a senator from Louisiana. >> Boggs.

02:18:53.900 - 02:19:03.240

>> Boggs. >> Boggs, Hale Boggs, went down over Alaska. And his body was never found. His site was never found.

02:19:05.180 - 02:19:23.640

And this increased interest in regulation requiring crash locator beacon. Before that, I had been very active in promoting it, trying to urge its adoption--

02:19:23.640 - 02:19:33.520

adoption by pilots for their own interests. And then, of course, regulation, that would be fine. But I didn't worry about that at the time. It was more to advise pilots.

02:19:34.220 - 02:19:50.560

I used to give talks to corporate aircraft operators and others and through Flight Safety Foundation bulletins at the time. I was a bit of a leader in trying to bring the attention of pilots to the efficacy of such a thing.

02:19:51.820 - 02:20:02.420

There were flight plans, of course, which people either did file or didn't. All of this is helpful in locating them should their aircraft be downed.

02:20:04.420 - 02:20:32.880

And the idea of crash locator beacons then came in full swing when I was involved in space because the radio frequency used in a crash locator beacon on an aircraft, a private pilot or airliner, is not – it's usually VHF. It doesn't carry very far in its line of sight, so if it's buried it needs to get

02:20:32.700 - 02:21:00.680

higher to get any, they call it propagation, to reach any, consider any distance at all. We now take space-space satellites, and this was one of the things I put forward in my symposium for search and rescue of aircraft, of spacecraft, but also when we got into anyone other than a spacecraft, operations land, sea, or air,

02:21:01.180 - 02:21:15.600

and space. In the space side of our symposium, people who were developing crash locator beacons, and also means of detecting them by spacecraft.

02:21:16.580 - 02:21:29.100

They were based in Canada, in France, in Germany. And they all got together on this symposium. They all spoke with each other. But they each had their individual system

02:21:29.180 - 02:21:44.260

that they thought was the better one. And one would fight over, should it be based at geostationary orbit, very high above Earth's surface, or should it be in low Earth orbit, where it's

02:21:44.380 - 02:21:56.140

very close sometimes and very high sometimes, but it covers the poles. And these arguments went forward. And our committee drew such attention

02:21:56.140 - 02:22:09.740

with good discussions and involving, here again, involving all those who could benefit from such a system, who could take part in the system. Would that not necessarily be an operator of spacecraft?

02:22:10.200 - 02:22:24.040

No. It could be any country who would have part of a rescue system with the land location apparatus to respond. They all could take part in it. I can't explain this all in just a drop of a hat.

02:22:24.240 - 02:22:39.440

But many parties could benefit from such a thing, but mainly many parties could be part of bringing it into development and gaining the credit for it. And most of these things I've done, I don't think anyone knew,

02:22:39.560 - 02:22:53.400

except they of course would have to know that it was I that had been behind it. But on the symposia that I ran on space rescue and disaster, it was more to help the careers of the people who took part in it

02:22:53.400 - 02:23:09.460

and I would put them up for membership in the Academy of Astronautics and so forth and bring their careers forward. Which I certainly lost nothing in the process. It made me happy and I didn't seek any credit.

02:23:10.080 - 02:23:31.120

But such efforts roll forward and by giving you really don't lose anything. In fact, you're bound to gain in the long run, but not that I thought about that. So what evolved from that is the UN, the United Nations,

02:23:32.160 - 02:23:39.840

asked-- this is the International Astronautical Federation, a little bit different entity than what I've said was the International Academy of Astronautics.

02:23:40.360 - 02:24:02.060

My symposium was the academy. It didn't matter. They asked the IAF and the IAA under my leadership to put forward a working paper, a working group and then a proposal that the UN adopt a universal system, worldwide system for response

02:24:02.460 - 02:24:21.140

to land, sea, air and space rescue, which did go forward. What year was that? That would have been around 1999, I think. I have noticed in the pictures that I have seen of you, you seem to be the only female.

02:24:21.920 - 02:24:28.820

Is it because other females are not as bright? What do you think? Bright? I'm not bright.

02:24:31.040 - 02:24:56.460

Why do you think more females are not involved? Or am I wrong in my assertion? correct to think of what year. Now when Flight Safety Foundation, this was immediately, well not immediately, post-World War II, we're talking 1947 on. I don't, no there was not

02:24:56.500 - 02:25:16.480

opportunity for women where, just a minute. I don't think those were jobs women were interested in or they were parts of airlines but not in the engineering we'll say. No, I don't think that came forward.

02:25:19.760 - 02:25:41.240

So now what are we talking about, what other might there be? When the International Academy of Astronautics were mentioning that was the aegis under which this space safety and rescue symposium and the worldwide disaster took place, their annual symposium, I became a member.

02:25:42.520 - 02:25:58.660

I don't recall the date. Ah, this is sort of interesting. It was way back, so it had to have been after the Academy was formed and after the manned space flight of America.

02:25:58.860 - 02:26:15.060

I'd have to say it would be the early '60s, early to mid '60s. When I was elected, six women were members. One was the French record holder. You probably remember her name.

02:26:15.840 - 02:26:40.180

Two were Russian, Valentina Tereshkova and another Russian, that's one, two, three, me, four. I think Eileen Galloway, who was an international space lawyer, American, very proficient, she's 90, she's here at this Congress.

02:26:41.520 - 02:26:58.180

And Isabella Diederik Verschuur from the Netherlands had been head of the International Institute of Space Law. Women there, especially lawyers, are prominent, and especially in Netherlands and smaller countries.

02:26:58.360 - 02:27:12.340

Netherlands especially, many women lead the country in scientific and other endeavoured law as well. And the other one was me. And the second, Jacqueline Cochran.

02:27:14.240 - 02:27:30.540

And she was a member not because she had done anything in space, but because she knew Harry Guggenheim and the Academy was promoted by Harry Guggenheim. I don't know that I ever saw it, any of the meetings or that she contributed, but this was really an honor to her.

02:27:31.670 - 02:27:50.700

Do you know who recommended you? To the Academy? I think it was self-evident, it was probably the head of it. Charles, up at MIT, Charles Stark Draper, who headed the MIT Draper Laboratory.

02:27:51.420 - 02:28:14.040

Draper had invented the inertial compass. His background was he was in psychology. He was a very talented person, yes. And now on this date, at this time, you are here in Houston at an international congress.

02:28:15.600 - 02:28:28.500

Yes. Oh, it's more than -- yes. Every year when there's been an international space congress, that involves the academy and the IAIA.

02:28:29.580 - 02:28:48.280

Now every ten years is a world space congress. So this is the second world space congress, first one in 1992. I can add it's now 2010. This one involves U.S. National Academy of Sciences, U.S. National Academy of Medicine,

02:28:49.480 - 02:29:06.420

U.S. National Academy of Engineering, and something called COSPAR, always acronyms. You know these acronyms, you better watch it. It's very hard to resurrect what the initials really say. CO, on space research, Coast Guard.

02:29:07.140 - 02:29:25.100

And it really started out as an aftermath of NATO when the threat of the two space powers sort of subsided. And they do all they can-- in their words-- now, I don't know.

02:29:25.360 - 02:29:39.260

This I'd have to look at carefully-- to help all peoples and all nations in space research. I have been looking to see what the self-interest is there, just because I'm a little ornery.

02:29:39.860 - 02:29:48.480

And I'm sure it's to promote the careers of the people who run it. But as long as they stay to their statutes and do what they say they want to do,

02:29:48.620 - 02:30:00.300

that's fine for the rest of us. And so this Congress is taking place in Houston at the George R. Brown Convention Center. And it's only just beginning.

02:30:00.440 - 02:30:18.760

There have been a lot of international meetings run by the UN, preliminary to the Congress, to try and get less developed countries learn, bring their people to learn technologies and equipments

02:30:18.770 - 02:30:32.560

that could help them utilize space systems to further their country. These would be the remote sensing satellites I mentioned. They would help them with development of their forest land, search for water.

02:30:33.460 - 02:30:50.640

The communications satellite would help them, say, a country like Indonesia with 1,500 diverse languages, all disparate remote communities, how they could have a national exchange of communications.

02:30:50.900 - 02:31:15.160

India, who are always subject to the annual flooding, and again, a country that brought itself up through technology, led by space, to raising their economy so that they

02:31:15.160 - 02:31:35.740

could afford space systems. For example, farmers in the distant countries, out of touch with any national means of communications, education, would want to learn from the developed countries

02:31:35.740 - 02:31:47.040

who would help them with seeds that were specially developed to help them grow crops. How would they learn what was the right season to plant them? How would they be instructed what to do with them?

02:31:47.380 - 02:31:57.860

They had no power. It's a country that's so poor, there are no landlines, telephone lines connecting them. The only way they can generate the power

02:31:58.220 - 02:32:15.200

is by a villager riding a bicycle, a stationary bicycle, to generate power, which enables them to be in touch through communications satellites. And the leader in India, the leading entity,

02:32:15.600 - 02:32:29.720

was the space research. And the political leaders tried to wean India away from the heavy steel. They always were steel producers.

02:32:30.420 - 02:32:44.960

But there was very little that steel was going to add to their economy. It's very capital intensive. They now are producing television sets thanks to lifting all

02:32:45.020 - 02:32:56.200

of the various communities up and giving them the technology capabilities to do that. That was just some of these examples where space can help. And so this World Space Congress,

02:32:56.500 - 02:33:12.520

a lot of the preliminary week was this UN and other developed, advanced countries helping less developed or particularly the United Nations. So this week, the first day was really before the Congress

02:33:12.610 - 02:33:21.140

opened. It opened just this morning. Yesterday was the Academy Day on the Sunday, Academy International, Academy of Astronautics.

02:33:21.240 - 02:33:36.380

And many speakers spoke on-- really geared toward the future. But one of the first slides showed two things. One on the left was the Wright brothers flight December 17,

02:33:36.800 - 02:33:43.800

1903, and then a dividing line. On the other side, it was just more or less any old spacecraft. It looked like an airplane.

02:33:43.810 - 02:33:57.480

I mean, it was that kind of a thing. And the question they said, in 1903, who could have imagined there could have been you and me flying here to there, that everyone would travel by airline,

02:33:58.660 - 02:34:11.600

and also other developments? Who could believe now that there will be the populace traveling, taking advantage of space transportation, possibly to a resort in space?

02:34:12.320 - 02:34:21.640

Now, whether that will come true, they don't know. But the people who imagine it have the conviction that it will. And so a lot of the lecture was devoted to that.

02:34:22.360 - 02:34:40.760

A lot of it was devoted to any new developments that would make it less expensive to launch spacecraft, less expensive to operate them. And one of the developments that is on the horizon,

02:34:41.040 - 02:34:59.480

and they have been working at it, is that the people who hear you will know all about nanotechnology, very small, and how that will come into play in our daily lives.

02:35:01.660 - 02:35:11.880

Robots. Smith College has an undergraduate engineering program. And one of the things they do are create robots and go

02:35:11.880 - 02:35:24.380

to the local classrooms and help those students become interested. Maybe they're robots that do playful things at first. But this is very much part of what will be the future

02:35:24.480 - 02:35:34.360

as sketched yesterday. And as I say, one of these things are called nanotubes. I don't know whether anyone has ever heard with that wonderful inventor, Buckminster Fuller,

02:35:35.260 - 02:35:55.900

who was a graduate of MIT and such an original thinker. A type of person who -- are we nearing the end or how are -- Yes, so this is-- and he was able to think all on his own. He certainly had an engineering background,

02:35:56.690 - 02:36:11.900

but he didn't think in the usual way that people did. He was not constrained, but what exists, or what might be, or what needs to be. And he just looked out his own windows, we'll say.

02:36:12.200 - 02:36:23.740

We look out a window, we see a certain picture, And we say, "Well, that's what it's like out there." And we go to two or three different windows and look at, "Oh, well now that's quite a bit broader view."

02:36:23.740 - 02:36:29.940

And what does that -- oh, what am I now seeing? So you do that. Maybe you go around and around. What have you got?

02:36:30.660 - 02:36:49.260

A very broad spectrum of how to look at things. And what can you see with the wider windows? At first it was the view out the cockpit window that what we saw, space had no, what we saw had no continuum,

02:36:50.700 - 02:37:01.440

that it was no boundaries and so forth. So that's the way this man thought. And he couldn't help but come upon ideas because of several things.

02:37:03.280 - 02:37:22.500

Curiosity, curiosity led by creativity, curiosity led by imagination. And there was one other, I probably can't remember it, see I'm getting old. And I have it here, vision, that he had.

02:37:23.620 - 02:37:43.160

And so did I do, you said you thought I might be bright, I don't think I am. What have I done with my life? If it hadn't been for the wasp, my life wouldn't have been the way it is and I couldn't have gotten to doing whatever it is anyone thinks I have done.

02:37:47.080 - 02:38:03.660

But it was perhaps a wider view of what all these possibilities are and how they can relate to each other. And so in our day, it was the circumstances that were there.

02:38:04.580 - 02:38:16.420

In Bucky Fuller's, perhaps it was his view of technology, and not so much what has been done, but what hasn't been done. And what possibilities might there

02:38:16.520 - 02:38:30.480

be if we take a broader view and release ourselves from the bounds of knowledge that we have, and use these facilities of curiosity, particularly led by curiosity.

02:38:31.040 - 02:38:48.860

That's about all I can say, unless that-- The only way that could mean anything to anyone else is for them to look around them. Various things happened to me in my life. How wonderful that my brother did do that and guide me away from stuffy old teaching

02:38:49.200 - 02:39:02.140

navigation to the Navy to experience in the WASP. I don't know if he knew why, but he knew it would be wonderful and that was the thing to do. That was very great luck and a caring person.

02:39:03.040 - 02:39:23.240

The others, the circumstances were the end of World War II and what was on the horizon and how I could use perhaps whatever I had done in the past, the Flight Safety Foundation. It was so clear how all that could come together and the ways in which it could because there was an interest in the people who could bring it together.

02:39:23.760 - 02:39:43.900

There was nothing to lose in seeing those relationships and helping them along. I think that's the only way I could put it. Let me ask you this Gloria, of all the things you have done, all the things, what is the one thing that you are most proud of?

02:39:45.540 - 02:40:00.460

The thing I'm most proud of, I'm not proud of anything I can tell you that because as I mentioned my parents, it never occurred to me, I just didn't think in terms of limitations, I never thought that I could do anything I wanted. No, I didn't.

02:40:00.830 - 02:40:19.460

I just was not encumbered by a sense of limitation. I think that spiritual understanding is very helpful. I think it's so important. And I think in any thinking I've done or being led to think,

02:40:20.980 - 02:40:33.760

the view that's given to me there is absolutely no, There's no reason for limitations, that all is given. And the more that's given, the more there is to give. That there's no end to it, no limit.

02:40:34.360 - 02:40:41.360

That it's there. So that's the spiritual side. And how you bring that into your life is really a question of personal religion.

02:40:42.880 - 02:40:52.680

But if-- and again, the way I've been speaking is what these other people have done and what I haven't-- what is it that hasn't been done? The thing that I'm most proud is something

02:40:52.680 - 02:41:02.220

that hasn't been done, but I've carried it along. We mentioned that disasters happen to less developed countries. I'll give you a quick example of one.

02:41:02.260 - 02:41:12.000

It's not a less developed country. There was the occasion when Gorbachev was over in America, and there was a terrible earthquake, very devastating, in Russia.

02:41:13.480 - 02:41:25.760

There was all sorts of technology available to come to the raid. Department of our government, US Agency international development, had Earth satellites

02:41:25.960 - 02:41:38.780

on the border of Russia to bring them in. And they were denied access by Russian customs. Now this is the splitting up of bureaucracies. What are my purviews?

02:41:39.200 - 02:41:47.780

What are mine? And I have the jurisdiction. And all the jurisdictions that come to play in response to disaster still have impediments.

02:41:48.340 - 02:42:11.860

And one initiative that would have overcome that is the doctrine of city in Finland. I think of Tankarae Gin, it's similar to it. Take Tankiri, something like that doctrine. All the nations said, if any of the small and big nations

02:42:11.860 - 02:42:25.180

of the world have an emergency, a disaster, and we can aid, it should go across the border without customs interference. And that is in the works. There's been not much progress on it.

02:42:25.280 - 02:42:35.220

So of the things I'm proudest is that at least that exists. I could have contributed a bit to it, and I hope it goes forward. That's the thing I'm most sorry that hasn't gone forward.

02:42:37.380 - 02:43:01.780

What is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran, who started the WASP? The thing that impresses me the most is that this person was an orphan, that she grew up in the most terrible circumstances, picking cotton in the fields, and how a person such

02:43:01.780 - 02:43:30.520

as that could have had the inner strength first to withstand it, it must not have been pleasant at all and to want to get out of it and then bit by bit to see her way. Whether I view eye to eye what guided her along the way, we might have different views about what would be acceptable or what might be necessary.

02:43:30.560 - 02:43:50.460

It might be necessary, therefore we don't question whether it were acceptable. What norm would she have? So I'm a little bit, I suppose, incipiently, possibly, disagreeing with that. But how can I, in my circumstances, when you view this person in those circumstances, how

02:43:50.560 - 02:44:12.400

wonderful and commendable she got out of it. She was helped because at that time, I'm not so certain that a woman, well maybe she could of, but she learned a trade, beauty, nail polish and so forth, and met wealthy women in Florida.

02:44:13.720 - 02:44:37.020

And that helped her because she was an appealing person, perhaps they helped her. And then at some point she met Floyd Adlam, who was a wealthy financier. Now how much she had to do to gain his support is a question of how we all live our lives. But she did and she used it to such good uses.

02:44:37.260 - 02:44:58.800

She could never, she didn't overlook and ever forget that she had been an orphan. And how did she react, not cover up and say, "Now I'm part of the elite, I'll just forget that and not let people know I was nobody, no good family." She turned around and I think she adopted many orphans.

02:44:59.020 - 02:45:12.320

I had the idea it was perhaps some 30. She did all she could financially and invited them to her ranch. Now there there's a real lack of snobbery, anyone who could do that because she wished to be someone in her community.

02:45:12.820 - 02:45:29.540

I don't think she saw that. I don't think she saw that, you could call it a sensitivity or a bad word would be snobbery. or discrimination, perhaps she didn't discriminate amongst classes of people.

02:45:30.030 - 02:45:36.560

I don't think they existed for her and I bet she's glad they didn't. - Are you on tape? - Yeah, let me.

02:45:38.520 - 02:45:46.100

Not quite. Okay, I'm rolling. - Okay. Gloria, in everybody's lifetime,

02:45:46.600 - 02:46:04.980

there are good times and there are bad times. There are happy times and there are sad times. What has gotten you through the sad times? I don't recall any sad times. I'm happy. Of course it was devastating when my brother

02:46:05.600 - 02:46:36.540

was killed. There, the devastation was for my parents. I just can't imagine, and you what as a parent, what it is to lose a child. In this circumstance, as a person who had gone all through the war, my brother, and had faced all kinds of dangers and came through it unscathed, and then in civilian life started

02:46:36.700 - 02:47:03.400

a career, had a Navy on after we got rid of the expensive AT-6s, and was on a flight with With a partner, import/export he decided to do. Of course he'd be wonderful at anything like that and as Nancy says with his outgoingness to people, it would make friends and clients and it would go swimmingly.

02:47:04.540 - 02:47:28.320

Was flying from Delaware to Delaware, dropped his partner off and then was going on to Baltimore And it was an occluded front. It was not in the weather reports. What he would have seen flying down, as you know, was lots of lower clouds, not knowing

02:47:28.440 - 02:47:49.780

that there was a thunderstorm system above. And that was all he would see until this terrible turbulence. He was approaching a part of Baltimore that was inhabited, and there was not a park-like, Not much, but put it down where it wasn't houses, it was just maybe a cul-de-sac and

02:47:50.340 - 02:48:08.020

of course it hit not between two trees, hoped to, but of course struck a tree and it was killed. But it was, from his point of view, unforeseeable, really I don't think it was in any way anything he could have avoided, it was an unfortunate circumstance.

02:48:09.440 - 02:48:30.460

What year was that? 1948. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? Dina, I haven't thought about it.

02:48:30.460 - 02:48:51.460

I have not thought about it. I've heard you speak about it and I think that it makes such sense to me and I'm so admiring of what you and your daughter Nancy have done in this tremendous effort on your part and vision to have realized that there was nothing in the history that covered it.

02:48:51.760 - 02:49:17.340

How you had the energy and the vision again and the talent to do what you're doing, I'm afraid I will just turn that back to you that I think it's so important. it from your eyes, I had never thought about it. What do you feel that the WASP experience did for you?

02:49:20.120 - 02:49:36.040

Well, it was my whole career. It was the start of my whole career. Thank heavens I was snatched from the Navy into the WASP and it all developed from there. If I hadn't done that, all this wouldn't have been opportunity, opening, opening, opening,

02:49:36.260 - 02:50:01.500

all the way along. I think I'm asking you what foundation that WASP experience gave you as far as discipline or any of that type thing. I don't think I was a changed person.

02:50:02.280 - 02:50:18.180

I think I saw a lot. I was naive really in many ways and I would be so interested in how people did this, how people did that. I would not feel the way I had done it was anything that was me or was so.

02:50:18.200 - 02:50:42.160

I might just mumble along doing what I'd done unless I saw something else and I'd say that's interesting. And what I saw in the WASP, and I could give it to you with some contrasting idea, there was someone in our WASP complement who - it's not the person I mentioned was in the next

02:50:42.280 - 02:51:10.100

It was a wonderful, innately talented hockey player, also lacrosse, who - all I can say is she was so well coordinated and such a good mind and sense to see how the openings were - she was a marvelous athlete, was top. She was all American hockey, all American lacrosse and so forth.

02:51:10.240 - 02:51:30.320

She could outwit, outwit as well, she had the wit. She was a wasp and she did not make it, flunked, washed out. Now how could such a person, so well coordinated, wash out? And I figured it out, it must be that our training was by the numbers.

02:51:30.680 - 02:51:46.040

Everything was by the numbers. Do people understand by the numbers? Before you took off, CIG, FTP, whatever, you go through the checklist, you do this, so and so.

02:51:46.560 - 02:51:59.560

And I think that was her undoing, that she couldn't help but do it her own way because that was the way she'd always done it. And I think, I can't imagine anyone flunking a flight test for her because I'm sure she did it well.

02:51:59.680 - 02:52:13.080

So that's a conundrum to me. But the only thing I can attribute to is flying by the numbers. Now you get into Flight Safety Foundation, my goodness, cockpit discipline is absolutely essential.

02:52:13.200 - 02:52:34.000

QF: I've never asked this before, but I want to ask you, who is the one person today that you most admire? AQ: Who is the one person I most admire? It varies, doesn't it, from time to time.

02:52:34.620 - 02:52:49.920

I don't know that I sit around thinking about whom I admire. You see, I've never had a role model type thing. I never sought one. I didn't think in those terms.

02:52:54.460 - 02:53:13.220

I think people in politics who can lead honestly, I don't know how many there are. The only person I could tell you in a similar situation is the financial situation, the Enrons and so forth.

02:53:14.020 - 02:53:30.380

The person who has spoken out is one of the wealthiest men in this country, Warren Buffett, the most successful. And he came right out and cut it right to the core. Who's supposed to do it right?

02:53:30.800 - 02:53:45.560

You, the CEO. And he also had more than the philosophy. He's helped a bit with the SEC as it's called. But for a person to have made all the money, he has to be pretty brilliant.

02:53:46.340 - 02:53:56.280

How does he know where the opportunities are? Talk about vision that he would come out. And it's so simple for him to be honest. Well, yes, I admire that.

02:53:56.780 - 02:54:19.420

But in the whole general, I haven't seen people who are so marvelous. Like Nelson Mandela, yes. I don't know, most, but yes, of all the people today who went through terrible situations. He was already a rebel against apartheid, and to have gone through prison and to come

02:54:19.460 - 02:54:36.680

out in the way he had in such a wonderful way, taking everyone in without rancor, I What do you feel your legacy will be? Oh, my legacy? Very poor.

02:54:38.320 - 02:54:45.340

I don't know. I don't think there's a legacy there at all. I really don't. I truly don't.

02:54:45.340 - 02:54:50.840

That will be for others. Hm? That will be for others to assess. No, I don't think there's a legacy.

02:54:51.040 - 02:54:59.440

Frankly, I don't. I don't have a PhD. I've never sought it. I've bumbled along in my own way.

02:54:59.460 - 02:55:13.320

I've done equivalent work. I did at one point get the-- is this funny-- the engineering award from the International Academy of Astronautics. I'm not an engineer.

02:55:14.720 - 02:55:22.940

They seemed to think that was worthy. Well, that's fine. Well, could I ask you-- and I know that there is a tremendous list of awards

02:55:23.000 - 02:55:38.560

that you have received. Which of those awards are you really proud of? I know youíre all proud of all of them, but is there one that stands out? Well, you know, here you go.

02:55:40.060 - 02:55:55.520

Iíd have to ask you, we wonít go through this, what do you think about awards? They always go to the most deserving person. Would you look at the criteria? Iím being much too fussy here, but what are the criteria for an award?

02:55:59.020 - 02:56:08.560

Who are the other people? Oftentimes people give awards who they really can't think of who on earth they give this award to if they have to give it every year and they don't.

02:56:09.200 - 02:56:23.900

Often awards that are given only on occasion, that sort of sounds better to me that it seems that they mean it. I don't think one is any better than the other. In fact, they're all not so very good except that what's nice

02:56:23.900 - 02:56:37.120

about it is, without speaking for myself, that some other groups recognized that there was something rather worthwhile to their view. I could give you just a little quick example.

02:56:37.980 - 02:56:55.660

The Barber Air Safety Award. It was given by Reverend Clifton Barber, who had been head of the Protestant Church in America and his son. He lost his wife in an early Capital Airlines weather

02:56:55.840 - 02:57:04.660

accident. And the airline was at fault. I mean, it should not have operated. Perhaps the accident report indicated that.

02:57:05.200 - 02:57:23.600

He turned around and sought out Flight Safety Foundation and gave an air safety award to avoid accidents in future. This is such a wonderful thing to do. But I got to know Dr. Barber pretty well,

02:57:24.400 - 02:57:37.660

because I was the one at Flight Safety who set up the award and found out really how he felt and did what I could to make the most of it, set up the criteria. Well, I didn't know that, but I sought out the Guggenheim

02:57:37.840 - 02:57:51.040

Award, which is the big one, and fashioned it after that. But I mentioned this person who had been chief engineer of aerospace underwriters and who had then been head of the Safety Bureau,

02:57:51.750 - 02:58:03.880

head of NASA, manned space, safety, all these things. This is later, these awards for him. But he was so well known in the aviation industry, they called him Mr. Safety, the, quote,

02:58:04.080 - 02:58:17.440

"the conscience of the safety industry." He was voted the Barber Award in 1964. I was put up for it by Dr. Theodore Wright immediately at the same time, but said

02:58:17.440 - 02:58:32.340

thought it would be nicer to wait a year, and so I got it the next year. Yeah, I suppose I like that. Did anyone else happen to see that? See the idea of, "Who are we talking about here?" I'm proud you were a WASP.

02:58:33.040 - 02:59:06.180

Well, that's very nice, Jeannie. I'm proud to be part of your group. Let me ask you this last question. If you could speak to children twenty-five, fifty years from now and encourage them to follow their dreams or to study a little bit harder, what would you say to them that might motivate them to try a little harder?

02:59:09.880 - 02:59:26.200

It's difficult for me to say. I haven't brought up children, so I don't really, or haven't taught really, to know what motivation is all about. I don't think I can answer that, but I know you'd like me to try.

02:59:31.060 - 02:59:53.060

It's hard to know, I suppose, to lose sense of self, and therefore you don't see limitations. I think sense of self, now that's very difficult to do, to lose sense of self, but I think that probably is the core of it. I don't know how anyone could interpret that or utilize it.

02:59:54.340 - 03:00:18.420

But sense of self brings limitations, because then you limit yourself, because you're worried about whether people like you or would like you, whether you'll measure up, whether you have confidence and probably you'll think, if I'm thinking of myself I probably don't have confidence, why should I be confident?

03:00:19.400 - 03:00:40.360

I think it's to lose sense of self, I don't know how you do that, but to take that view and try it, try and dispel it, try it today, try it every day, every hour. Am I losing sense of self? Am I being self-important in a sense, thinking that everything centers around me?

03:00:40.820 - 03:00:53.860

How could I lose sense of self? Maybe I see a group and I don't know if I should mingle. Go! Who are you? Maybe they're better. You might learn something. I think that's a little bit of what I mean

03:00:53.880 - 03:01:06.180

losing sense of self. Is there anything that I have left out? Not a thing, Deney. Or anything that you would like to say?

03:01:07.080 - 03:01:18.000

I don't think so, Deney. You don't think so? No. I want to thank you so much, and as I say, I am so proud that you were a WASP person.

03:01:18.020 - 03:01:26.640

Well, wasn't it lucky for me that I got in the program? That we're a draw. You've been a real joy and a blessing to us. >> Well, thank you, Jeannie.

03:01:26.900 - 03:01:31.120

I share your view. >> Thank you so much. >> That's awesome. Okay.

03:01:31.230 - 03:01:34.540

>> That's awesome. >> Wow. >> You get a gold star now. >> Yeah.

03:01:34.920 - 03:01:38.940

>> Oh, I've got one? >> Yeah, you get a gold star. No, I'm -- [ Laughter ]

03:01:42.620 - 03:01:51.600

>> Oh, that was a marathon. >> Wow. >> I think -- and you also said something earlier that I really, really like, how you brought people together

03:01:51.600 - 03:01:58.860

for the common good. >> Yeah. >> How you somehow, and I feel that that's how you work with all those men, Gloria.

03:01:58.860 - 03:02:02.700

>> Yes, that's right. That's right. >> You work with them because everybody wins. >> Yeah, absolutely.

03:02:02.700 - 03:02:06.160

>> And you figure out how. >> That's right. Sure. >> That's what you do.

03:02:06.160 - 03:02:11.400

>> Well, it can't go forward unless it has that. It's like critical mass. Isn't it? A little bit of sense.

03:02:11.510 - 03:02:15.960

>> Yeah, that's true. >> You know what critical mass? >> Yeah, well, I don't like -- that makes a big explosion, doesn't it?

03:02:15.990 - 03:02:31.860

>> No, no, no, no. you roll it a bit, it still might melt and you can't do much with it. Get it going and it finally gets big enough that it won't ever melt. Is that more or less?

03:02:32.130 - 03:02:51.340

Well, it will melt someday, but it will certainly slow it up tremendously. You need that in order to make something of it, do something with it, or throw it. And that's the way you stick people together makes critical mass, I guess. A critical mass is that there are things that are said,

03:02:52.560 - 03:03:01.840

admonitions, you advocate this, you advocate that, nothing happens. You get enough people saying it, and you do enough work to prove it,

03:03:02.560 - 03:03:16.180

then you're over the point of, it's much easier to gain others. A certain amount of work has to be done and proven. You have to get to a certain point where it will go forward.

03:03:16.560 - 03:03:27.300

Can you do it scientifically, June? >> This is the bandwagon effect. Because once they see the wagon going down the hill and they hear the music, they want to jump on, right?

03:03:28.010 - 03:03:36.020

>> Yes, but it also has to do with scientific achievement. >> Yeah. >> You could have a great idea, but you haven't proven it, you haven't gotten it up to the point

03:03:36.700 - 03:03:46.880

where it then could go forward. >> Right. >> All this work has to be done, and all the nitty gritty effort has to be done and proven and refined and refined.

03:03:47.140 - 03:03:54.720

Then it's a point when it could go forward with others joining. If somebody has to do, get to, or some group. >> Communication. >> Yeah.

03:03:54.850 - 03:04:07.700

>> And without that somebody, a lot of good ideas just go away. >> Or it's a group, yes, a group effort, right. And to communicate, to get that group together, right. They have to know their part of it.

03:04:07.850 - 03:04:17.500

>> Right. >> And, yeah. >> Well, I tell you, I wish you had come along a few years earlier. My husband flew air-sea rescue missions for four years.

03:04:17.630 - 03:04:22.300

>> Oh, really? >> When we were in Panama, Canal Zone. >> What was the organization? >> Air Force.

03:04:22.300 - 03:04:26.020

>> Air Force. Air-sea rescue. >> Air-sea rescue. >> Yeah.

03:04:26.840 - 03:04:31.140

>> Four years. They didn't have any satellites. >> Yeah. >> You know.

03:04:31.920 - 03:04:36.020

>> Oh, that was -- >> They just would fly quadrants. >> Very vulnerable. Air-sea rescue, very vulnerable.

03:04:36.110 - 03:04:45.400

>> Oh, yes. >> People go down in the bad weather. >> Fly quadrants out over the Pacific Ocean, That's why you knew Boggs, Hale Boggs.

03:04:46.140 - 03:04:53.660

Well, that's of course, Boggs is his wife. Yeah, a senator. Yeah, and that's-- Lindy.

03:04:53.920 - 03:05:01.480

--Cokie Roberts' mother. That's right. That's right. And that's who sponsored the bill with Barry Goldwater that

03:05:01.600 - 03:05:06.700

made you veterans, that got you veterans. No kidding. Yes. Gosh.

03:05:06.840 - 03:05:11.000

See? Isn't that something? Yeah. You educate us, we educate you.

03:05:11.960 - 03:05:17.780

>> Well, that's history. >> That's history. >> And you said you weren't, you know, you weren't. >> That's interesting.

03:05:17.790 - 03:05:24.720

>> But it's not interesting. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> She and there was another woman, who was the other lady?

03:05:24.720 - 03:05:27.800

>> I'm sure that I should just let you come see it. >> Senator. >> Who what? >> What?

03:05:28.040 - 03:05:39.240

>> That helped sponsor that bill. >> Oh. >> It was Lindy Boggs and I've forgotten the other lady's name, along with Barry Goldwater though.

03:05:39.350 - 03:05:48.680

>> Really? >> Was she a person who had done aviation? >> Neither of them, no. She was a senator.

03:05:49.180 - 03:05:58.440

>> Yeah, but I mean what was her interest, you know, not support. Usually you're on a committee. >> Right. I don't know. I just think she was a good friend of Barry Goldwater's probably.

03:05:58.510 - 03:06:03.200

>> Yeah. >> And he probably talked her into it. >> How about that? >> It was Lindy Boggs and who was the other lady?

03:06:05.210 - 03:06:11.320

>> Well, now that you ask me. >> I know. >> Yeah. >> I haven't said that name.

03:06:12.040 - 03:06:18.280

>> So what do you all do after you pack up? Can we help you pack up? >> No. >> No, I can do this while you talk.

03:06:18.770 - 03:06:25.920

>> No, let us help you. >> No. >> Don't you have more space, Congress, to go to? >> Oh, that's true.

03:06:25.990 - 03:06:31.200

>> It's quarter of four. >> You've got another seminar or something you want to do. >> I did want to go to the space station. >> Yes, and it's quarter of four.

03:06:31.300 - 03:06:41.460

By the time you hit the ladies' room, it'll be time to go. >> I forgot all about that. >> I got this all packed up. >> So, when you drive, how long a drive is it?

03:06:41.470 - 03:06:47.820

>> It's about four hours, three and a half to four hours. >> What time did you leave this morning? >> We left at 7.15. >> Oh, my.

03:06:48.090 - 03:06:54.600

>> Yeah. Well, we did this. >> Gloria, it was worth it. >> It was worth it. We have been anticipating this

03:06:54.700 - 03:07:03.100

from the first time we read an article about you. You're different. Well, of course, everyone is different, but you are really different.

03:07:05.280 - 03:07:18.800

I just think it's a, this is real special. I think your story is very, very special. - That's interesting to me. - So we, it was worth the drive down here and the drive back.

03:07:20.080 - 03:07:28.820

- That's a lot. - Tomorrow we will go to work and sometime in the future I will start trying to transcribe this. - Oh boy.

03:07:28.820 - 03:07:41.660

- It takes a lot of time to transcribe. - How can you transcribe? - Oh yes. I can do that. I was the personal secretary to the commanding general and the director

03:07:41.700 - 03:07:46.600

of operations of the 6th Air Force at one time. Which Air Force? 6th. 6th Air Force?

03:07:46.620 - 03:07:50.880

Panama Canal Zone. Oh, yeah. Panama Canal. Yeah, but she also flew 26s.

03:07:51.400 - 03:08:00.320

Really? Yeah. Yeah. But I flew for gunners and flying in the B-24 out over the Gulf. I was down at Tyndall.

03:08:01.100 - 03:08:19.080

And we flew—Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida. And we flew for the B-24s that would have maybe seven gunners in all the turrets, firing the live ammunition at our target too. So I understand that.

03:08:21.670 - 03:08:28.380

But it was great. You're a very talented person. Not really. I had this, so that's...

03:08:28.400 - 03:08:37.820

Yeah, well the two of you are quite a team. How are you going to carry? Can't we help you carry? No, we're going to, they bring a rolling thing up and put it on there and take it to the car.

03:08:38.360 - 03:08:50.020

We'll have to go get the cards across the street. But they've been very helpful. I'm going to let them do that. They'll do that. You know, I know you know, that you, in that postal service, blue envelope,

03:08:50.720 - 03:08:59.960

you have all my original photos. I have it right in here. Yeah, I brought that. Oh, the one she brought, Mom. That one right there.

03:09:00.120 - 03:09:01.960

Yeah. Inside that one. Yeah. Yes.

03:09:02.760 - 03:09:06.680

Do you need those back? >> Yes. >> Okay. Let me take pictures. >> No hurry.

03:09:06.940 - 03:09:11.100

>> Let me take pictures of them right now. >> Oh, no, no, no. Take your time. Oh, absolutely.

03:09:11.100 - 03:09:18.600

>> I still have your book, Gloria. I drove by as I -- we got home last night. I should have gotten it to the office. >> No, just eventually.

03:09:19.010 - 03:09:27.520

>> With this. >> You know what my files are like? So, you know, they belong in a file that doesn't exist. >> Gloria, I --

03:09:27.520 - 03:09:52.320

>> I know. I have something of yours. >> This is the one that Steven Spielberg. Do you know that this questionnaire we got from Steven Spielberg, Survivors of the Shore Foundation?

03:09:53.200 - 03:10:03.980

This is the questionnaire that they used. >> The one, yeah, the 38 pages that you. >> Yeah, with the Holocaust victims. And this is their release form, it's also the release form that Baylor requires.

03:10:04.180 - 03:10:22.220

And what it says essentially is that Baylor owns what you did today. But it doesn't prohibit you from doing the same thing tomorrow with another organization or anything. It's just that what you have done today will go into their archives.

03:10:23.340 - 03:11:25.800

Does that make sense to you? (laughing) [SIDE CONVERSATION] [LAUGHTER]

03:11:26.380 - 03:11:34.820

You can analyze my handwriting. I was telling June that I'll bet you if we set the camera up on another day and came and let her talk to us, we'd

03:11:34.900 - 03:11:39.160

find a very interesting story. I bet we would, too. Yeah. Don't tell me.

03:11:39.780 - 03:11:44.920

I get a copy and-- She is a doctor, you know. And a PhD. Oh, wow.

03:11:45.200 - 03:11:48.380

Oh, good. She won the-- Oh, she's a smarty pants. Oh, that's on you.

03:11:49.380 - 03:11:53.600

Nancy was-- I'm sorry. I just said you're a smarty pants. - Look, look.

03:11:54.700 - 03:11:59.420

- Oh, that's all right. It probably needs it. (laughing) - What happened to it?

03:11:59.980 - 03:12:04.460

- I knocked the glass over. - I knocked the glass over. - A ditching. - Somebody knocked the glass over onto it.

03:12:04.520 - 03:12:13.840

- A little ditching. - Okay, now this is your copy of what you signed. And if you get home and read this and think, no, I don't wanna do that, let us know.

03:12:13.980 - 03:12:20.760

And we'll just dump all the tape. - Then you bill me for the film. - No, no, no. You don't wanna pay that bill.

03:12:20.960 - 03:12:39.100

- Oh, no. How high is it? Oh, it's what, $35 a tape? No, these are the 15s. The long tapes that we put it on when we get home. I'll get used to it. I'll have her used to it. You have the most great energy.

03:12:39.640 - 03:12:48.400

Doesn't she, though? And it comes across, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. And it doesn't decrease as time goes on. I never got tired. I got tired.

03:12:48.400 - 03:12:55.200

Well, I wanted to respond. I wanted to do whatever I should do for your sake. You did wonderfully. Well, you did one.

03:12:55.280 - 03:13:02.240

I'm just really proud. I'm going to say, I was a loss, too. You know it. [LAUGHTER]

03:13:04.020 - 03:13:07.640

I don't compare, but it's-- No, no, no. You did. You did.

03:13:08.120 - 03:13:10.680

Yeah. No, because everybody is so different. No, it's wonderful. Sure.

03:13:12.920 - 03:13:22.780

That's true. - Which person is, well, is different. - Gosh, and the Congress goes on all week now? - Yeah, we're gonna leave Friday morning.

03:13:23.160 - 03:13:27.260

- Okay. - Yeah. - Did you fly down together? - Yes.

03:13:28.100 - 03:13:33.680

- Oh, that's nice. - June fell onto my house, you know, so we kind of see each other every day. - Gloria!

03:13:34.860 - 03:13:37.880

- Oh, really? - That's funny. - What can I do? Gloria!

03:13:38.120 - 03:13:43.160

- Yeah, she does come on. - Oh, she answers the phone. - She answers the phone, but then I ask her, Gloria, you answer it.

03:13:43.260 - 03:13:52.740

I thought I was going to give you this. I was going to take a picture. I want to take a picture. Well here, let me get a picture of you with it.

03:13:54.600 - 03:14:04.260

I thought when you have time. This was an unsolicited article in the New York Times. Wow. And this is about our project.

03:14:04.300 - 03:14:05.020

Oh, good.