00:00:04.080 - 00:00:18.620

>> We'll just go from there. And this really is about your whole life because who you are now, who you were at one year old has made you who you are. So that's what we're looking for.

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>> You're growing up with seven brothers and sisters. >> Oh, absolutely. That really has made you. But it has taken every facet of your life for you to be who you are today.

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And as I said, this is a conversation with mom, so you don't have to worry. Pretend I'm not here. Okay. Go ahead, mom.

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Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Mary Jones Wilkinson. She was a WASP, Class 44-9.

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We are in her office in a hangar at the Richard Jones Airport in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Today is the 28th of January, 2002. The videographer is Nancy Parrish. Okay, Mary, if you will tell us your full name and when

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and where you were born, and we'll go from there. >> All righty. My name is -- I was born Mary Grace Regal-Budo, which was my training name.

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And then for a good part of my life, I was Mary R. Jones when I married Irwin Jones. And I was widowed for about 20 years. and then I, within the last year and,

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well almost two years now, it'll be two years, February the 2nd, I have been Mrs. Lauren L. Wilkinson. So to get the best of both, I have identified myself as Mary Jones Wilkinson.

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- And where were you born? - I was born in Cleveland, Ohio on November the 16th, 1922. And I was the, I forgot what sequence I came in, but there were eight of us.

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And we were four boys and four girls. Okay. Tell me about your mom and dad. What did your dad do? Well, first of all, let me tell you that my dad and my mom emigrated here from Italy. The story, as I heard it, was that they were on their honeymoon.

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This is where they stayed. My mom was, I think, fifteen years old at the time, which I think was a very gutsy thing for her to do. My mom always worked throughout most of her adult life that I remember as a seamstress.

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She did hand sewing on some upscale coats, and my dad was a laborer. What are your earliest remembrances of your childhood? I guess the first thing that popped in my mind was how poor we were. I grew up during the Great Depression, and there's a lot about the Depression that I

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remember. Where did you live? Did you live in town or did you live out of town? No, we were, I was a city girl.

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We lived in an Italian neighborhood in Cleveland called Little Italy. And I spent up until I was about, well, until I graduated from high school and started flying when I was in my twenties there. As a young child, what do you remember about the games you played with your brothers and

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I don't remember many games I played with my brothers and sisters, but I do remember all the games I played with the neighborhood children that were my age. We played things that you didn't have to go to the store to buy. We played tag with Kick the Can, and we made scooters out of one roller skate in an orange

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crate. I'm sure some people remember that. I do remember that I didn't have—I don't recall having had a doll or dolls, a collection of dolls. Kelly: Do you recall when you were young having that many children in the family, chores that you must have had?

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Oh, yeah. I mean, that chores. My sister, who is a year older than I, used to divide the ironing. After dinner, she would do the dishes, and I would clear up the table and sweep up the kitchen and get it back in order. Do you recall if there was a difference? Did the boys get less chores than the girls?

00:05:06.600 - 00:05:21.440

I don't remember too many things about what chores my brothers did. They must have done some, but I just don't remember. Okay. Do you recall when you started school?

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How far was the school from your home? The school was just a half a block. We walked to school. My first recollection of school for me was in kindergarten, and I fell madly in love

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with a little cute little guy there, who later grew up to be a friend of mine. What was his name? Paul Manillo, and he is a very successful restaurateur in Cleveland, Ohio. When you were growing up, what was a Christmas like in your home?

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The early Christmases were very bleak and blare and scant. I recall that we used to get stockings, which we would eventually wear, and they were filled with maybe oranges and cookies and things that were readily available, edibles and things like that.

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Then our first Christmas tree that we had was when my second youngest brother had participated in a program at the Cleveland Museum of Art. We didn't live very far from the Cleveland Museum of Art, and they had had a Christmas program.

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Then at the end of the program, they were going to disband the tree, and they asked if anybody wanted it. So, my little brother dragged that Christmas tree, bare as it was, all the way home from the Cleveland Museum of Art, and put it up in our living room. And we made paper chains and put it up, and that's what I remember as my first Christmas

00:07:07.340 - 00:07:16.280

tree. That's great. When you started school, you walked to school. Yes. And for lunch, what would you do?

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For lunch we would walk home again and we'd have a sandwich. I can remember things like potato sandwiches and eggplant sandwiches and just any kind of a sandwich. Then walk back to school.

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We had an hour. Growing up with so many children, did your mom and dad have a garden? Oh yes. We had a very ample-sized garden, but all we planted was tomatoes.

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Did you sell some of the tomatoes? No. In the fall, my mom would get all the tomatoes, and then she would supplement them with buying some more tomatoes.

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We made our tomato sauce from that, because in an Italian home, tomato sauce was a very important part of our diet, and we got a lot of it from our garden. We had a couple of fruit trees, we had a pear tree and a plum tree, and my mother had some very beautiful roses, which I always remember.

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Okay. With all those children, what were the sleeping arrangements? Well, we lived in a two-story home, and it was a two-family building, which when we occupied it, became a one-family home.

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And our kitchen and the dining room and the living room rooms were downstairs. Then upstairs we had four bedrooms, which before they were bedrooms. One was a kitchen, and then we had two bedrooms. Then a third room was added on for the fourth bedroom.

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All my brothers slept in the kitchen, which was the room you entered. There were two double beds in there. My mom and dad slept in the other one. Then my two older sisters slept in the front bedroom.

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My sister, who was a year older than I, slept in the added-on bedroom. Did you have a choice of which sister to sleep with? No, it was predestined. We were only a year apart, and that is the way it came.

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Mary, tell me about your grandparents. I have no recollection of grandparents, because they were in Italy. I have seen pictures of them, and I have heard my mom talk about them occasionally. While they were living, they were corresponding with them.

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All I remember about my grandparents, really, was when they got the letter with the black border saying that they had passed away. Did you have other relatives in America? I had only one aunt and she didn't live too close to us, but she was the only person that

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I remembered as a relative. Do you know why your mom and dad came to America? >> Well, I was told it was their honeymoon, but I'm sure they must have been motivated to come to America

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for all the things that immigrants do. I can't say I really ever asked them. I know that they came in through Ellis Island and they went through that chore there.

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And I have to believe that when they came, they had no intention of going back. When you were a young child, what did you do during vacations in the summer? Well, during the summers, we had sort of a little ritual.

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Our chores were we had to get the house straightened out and cleaned and swept and dusted. Then we would go to a baseball field that was across from our home, separated by the New York Central Railroad that was there. Case Western Reserve University wasn't too far from us.

00:12:02.440 - 00:12:24.660

At that time, it was Western Reserve University. They had access to this property there, and for a long time it was used as a playground. We used to go there and play tennis. I can think back that I probably spent as much time there as any place that I'm aware

00:12:24.740 - 00:12:34.400

of. In elementary school, what subject did you like? Swimming. Swimming?

00:12:35.360 - 00:12:50.820

Okay. I liked all my subjects. I liked math and I liked English. I started to show some talent in art, and I liked art. Did your school have a swimming pool?

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Yes, it did. Do you recall in the very early years of any ambition you had? My mom was a seamstress, and I can't ever remember not having a sewing machine in our home.

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It was a treadle machine. I was using that. I had started using the treadle sewing machine when I was about five or six years old. I decided that I wanted to be a dress designer, and that was my goal.

00:13:31.720 - 00:13:47.740

All my subjects in school were leaning towards that. When I was in high school, I did not take college preparatory courses. I took art, I majored in art, and stayed with that. I am sorry later.

00:13:48.370 - 00:14:12.380

Kelly: In elementary school, what teacher influenced you most? Actually, there were two. I had a homeroom teacher named Mrs. Dunning. I guess the reason I remember her, because of her kindness during those poor, poor days

00:14:12.440 - 00:14:40.280

of the Depression, why she used to bring clothing to school for the children that needed it badly. And then in junior high, there was Janet Holt, who was the swimming instructor. I took a liking to her and she to me, and after I graduated from high school, we were

00:14:40.420 - 00:14:56.940

still keeping in touch. I don't know of her whereabouts today, but I would say that she would be the one. When you were in school, was there competition among you children and your family as far as grades?

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Lowdermilk Honstein No, I do not remember. I do not remember much emphasis on grades. I felt more competition with the kids in my class than I did with my brothers and sisters. Do you know what your mom and dad expected of you children as far as grades?

00:15:25.220 - 00:15:47.980

Strangely enough, I was never aware that they had expectations. I know that they signed our report cards when we brought them home, but other than that, I was not aware of any. As far as discipline, what kind of discipline did your parents employ?

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In some ways, they were very strict. You had to obey. You had to respond when you were asked to do something. You had to do things when you were asked and not question them, things like that.

00:16:17.580 - 00:16:39.580

But the strictness I felt when I started to grow and develop at fourteen or fifteen, when I had been asked for my first date and I was not permitted to go, and I thought that was pretty strict. [Laughter.]

00:16:39.580 - 00:16:57.080

Kelly: But in retrospect, how do you feel about it? I suppose they did what they had to do, but they knew the family and they knew the boy who was one of the playmates on the street, so I could not understand why. As a matter of fact, I actually left home because of it.

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How long did you stay away? Probably as long as it took me to walk from our home to 105th and Euclid, when I just just happened to turn around and saw my older brothers and sisters walking behind me. [Laughter]

00:17:16.020 - 00:17:36.400

Kelly: When you finished elementary school, how large was that elementary school? Did you have more than one first grade, for example? McClendon: Gee, I do not know. They must have. The grades went from kindergarten up to the seventh grade.

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Kelly: When you finished seventh grade, did you have to change buildings? McIntire: We had to go to a different school, and it brought us out of the neighborhood, which was a very new experience for us. We went to Fairmont Junior High School, and it was near this area where I had walked when

00:17:55.020 - 00:18:20.220

I went away from home. It was my first experience with students of other cultures and--I cannot think of the word--whose parents had immigrated from other parts of the world. Kelly: Instantly, how old were you when you left, went away from home to those blocks?

00:18:20.860 - 00:18:37.860

McIntire: I am guessing about fourteen, fifteen, something like that. When you went to junior high, was it still close enough to walk? Yes, I had to walk. And in junior high, what was your focus as far as your academic studies?

00:18:38.400 - 00:19:02.900

Well, in the academic studies, I was still focusing on being a dress designer, and I majored in art. So, those are the courses I took. Then I took all the required courses in English and sociology and all of the other required courses.

00:19:03.260 - 00:19:25.740

Kelly: Okay. That particular school then, did you go on through twelfth grade? Yes, we went from the ninth grade—Mary Hill went up through the seventh, and then the eighth grade we went to Fairmont, and then from there we went from the ninth through

00:19:25.800 - 00:19:43.680

the twelfth. I went to East High School, which was further. It was a nice bus ride, but usually we walked. It was about a forty-five minute to fifty minute walk to school.

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Well we saved fifty cents car pass. Right. In the wintertime when you had lots of snow. I remember walking.

00:19:54.430 - 00:20:10.520

We cut through Wade Park, right behind the art museum, and got to school that way. Would you walk home for lunch? No, we would have to carry lunch. Do you remember what you would carry in that lunch?

00:20:11.240 - 00:20:43.460

Potato sandwiches and eggplant sandwiches and things like that, or cold cuts, things like that. In high school, what were your outside activities, your social activities? Not very many at the school. In our neighborhood in Little Italy, there was a community settlement house called Alta

00:20:43.760 - 00:21:00.900

Social Settlement. I hope I have this right. It was supported or sponsored by the Rockefeller family, and it was named after Alta. I think there was an Alta Rockefeller, but I'm not sure.

00:21:04.400 - 00:21:35.580

Pretty much any social activity that I had growing up, I got from the Alta social settlement. I really owe an awful lot to that activity, because it gave me the opportunity for social activities which I wouldn't have otherwise had. When you went to high school and there were different cultures in that high school, did

00:21:35.580 - 00:22:15.780

you feel differently than the other cultures? I did, but because of, I don't know whether I should go into this, but in those days the Italian immigrants weren't thought of in the same light as they might be today. And the fact that the children from Muriel School were from Little Italy who had enrolled

00:22:15.920 - 00:22:36.480

into these high schools. At East High School I found what is termed today as discrimination, not because I was white or black, but because I was Italian. And I always have felt that that accounted for my lack of social activity during high

00:22:36.660 - 00:22:44.020

school. But it did not hold you back? No. No.

00:22:45.020 - 00:23:15.580

No, I learned how to dance anyway at the social settlement house. And the hardest thing for me to endure was the good-looking little, I used to call him the American boy, that I became very fond of. And that was it.

00:23:16.400 - 00:23:38.540

having been brought up and being an Italian American, how has that impacted your attitude toward minorities, for example? - Well, I never really had any

00:23:43.360 - 00:24:04.620

feelings against minorities. When I went to Fairmont was my first experience where I went to school with minorities and no one told me there was such a thing as discrimination. I learned that as I went through and got older. Okay. In high school when you were taking swimming,

00:24:05.520 - 00:24:30.500

was there competition with other schools? The swimming was an elementary school, So there was no competition. It was just part of the physical training class. Okay. Then when you got to high school, what activities outside of academics were you involved with? Were you into speech or music or sports?

00:24:30.500 - 00:24:58.800

and speech and I think I had enrolled in the gun club and I think I can't remember whether I was in the debate group or not. I don't recall. Well, being from that large family, were you pretty much required to come home after school rather than be in, do outside activities? Did you have chores at home that you needed

00:24:58.800 - 00:25:17.540

to go home for? We always came home because that was the place to go after school. We had no extra money to do anything after school, so we always came home. If we got home before my mom, we were expected to start supper.

00:25:18.740 - 00:25:35.840

At that point, was your mom doing her sewing outside of your home? Yes. How did your mom and dad, how involved were they with your school? Not too much.

00:25:43.080 - 00:25:58.940

They never were members of PTA or anything like that, but they made sure that we all attended and got there and back. You were the best dressed kids there. There is called your high school prom.

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Yes. That brings a smile. Tell us about it. I don't know why I'm smiling. I was heartbroken. Oh.

00:26:11.100 - 00:26:43.880

I was dating my first, the first person I ever really called my boyfriend was in, I met him through the settlement house. And he took a shine to another gal. And so, as they say today,

00:26:43.880 - 00:27:01.060

I was dumped just before the prom. So I invited another friend to take me to the prom. And we had a good time. Were your brothers very real protective of you as far as dating?

00:27:01.660 - 00:27:11.040

No. No. No, I don't think they cared. Describe that settlement house where you did activities.

00:27:11.100 - 00:27:30.000

Well it's still in existence today and it's the core of that neighborhood. They have all types of activities for seniors there and of course I don't know what they they do for the younger groups. When I was going there, they had different social clubs.

00:27:31.220 - 00:27:58.020

I remember being in a club called the Merrymakers, and we would plan different social activities. For example, we had a spaghetti supper for our parents. They had dances. The settlement house had a large ballroom on the top floor.

00:28:00.460 - 00:28:20.240

They used to have dances there periodically. As a matter of fact, in the month of May, they used to have what they called the May Ball, the Spring Ball. They would have elections among the different groups in the settlement house for the May

00:28:19.960 - 00:28:48.700

Queen. The first time I had been nominated, I was defeated because that same cute little guy I fell in love with in kindergarten lobbied for his girlfriend, and I lost out. >> Wow. Are you aware of why Mr. Rockefeller donated to that? >> No, I'm not.

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But I do have a sequel to the May Queen. I got elected the next year. >> Good for you. [ Laughter ]

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Okay. And what were your duties as May Queen? Did your mom make your dress? >> No, I made it myself. Well, we had ladies-in-waiting, and very similar to what they do for homecoming.

00:29:16.300 - 00:29:33.820

They had a special dance at the dance, and I had a crown. You still have the crown? No, but I have a photograph somewhere. Recall your high school graduation.

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Did you have caps and gowns? No, we did not have caps and gowns. We had to wear, I believe it was something white. I wore a white skirt and a blouse. It was held in the high school auditorium. Kelly: How large was your class?

00:30:00.000 - 00:30:15.940

McIntire: I do not recall. I do not recall. Probably maybe about a hundred or so. I have a yearbook, which would probably tell me that because all the class members are

00:30:16.920 - 00:30:26.620

identified, but probably around a hundred. Kelly: What kind of student were you in high school? McIntire: I was a good student. I worked hard and I got good grades.

00:30:29.180 - 00:30:57.260

I remember I used to spend a lot of time after school on my books. Did you have a goal when you were a senior in high school of what you wanted to do? I was still focusing on being a dress designer and I started to take classes at night at the Cleveland School of Art.

00:30:57.300 - 00:31:11.600

I took a class in life drawing. I had been told by my art director, instructor at school, that if I wanted to be a dress designer I should learn how to draw the human body. So I took this course in life drawing.

00:31:13.520 - 00:31:35.940

Then in my senior year in high school, they had a program where you could learn retailing, and you'd go to school half a day, and then you'd go work at the store half a day. This is where I went to work in this department store. While I was there, this is where I met the young man who introduced me to flying.

00:31:37.060 - 00:32:04.540

That was all she wrote. From then on, I had no desire to be a dress designer. Who were your role models when you were growing up? I do not remember having a role model up until I started flying and worked at this little

00:32:04.540 - 00:32:22.480

airport where I was working for my license, and that was Marge Hurlburt, who became a WASP and was in '43-'46, I believe. And she's the only person I really remember as a role model. Kelly: Okay.

00:32:23.660 - 00:32:49.680

When you graduated from high school, do you have any idea of how many of the girls in your class would be going on to college? McMillan: During that time, there were not very many women who were attending college. A lot of them, especially if you came from an ethnic background, your role was primarily

00:32:49.900 - 00:33:13.580

to marry and have children. Most of the women who were, well, I will call them white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, who were attending the class and who had the good grades and majored in college prep courses, went to college.

00:33:13.640 - 00:33:34.480

But I do not recall, I would say it would be a small number of them. Doris: As compared to the boys? Oh, the boys, most of the boys ended up in college. In my own family, all my brothers have degrees, but I was the only one who got one.

00:33:35.220 - 00:33:51.380

And as you can see, my material, I did not get mine until 1997. Kelly: Okay. When you graduated from high school, then that summer, did you work during that summer? McIntire: I was already working before I graduated.

00:33:52.480 - 00:34:04.260

As soon as I graduated, they put me on full-time. Kelly: Okay. And you were doing what? McIntire: Well, they trained us in how to sell, how to approach people, and then they

00:34:04.060 - 00:34:20.820

They also gave some of us extra training on how to wrap packages and prepare them for shipping, so I did a little bit of both. Kelly: What year was that, Mary? McIntire: That was 1941, I think.

00:34:21.100 - 00:34:38.260

1940-41. Kelly: Do you recall where you were and how you heard and what you felt about Pearl Harbor? McIntire: Very, very distinctly. I was sitting in my sister's bedroom at her vanity table.

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She had a little radio. The radio came on and the announcement came on. I just was stunned. I became very frightened.

00:34:55.240 - 00:35:14.880

That's how I found out. How did that change your family, for example? Well, immediately my two older brothers were drafted. That was hard for me.

00:35:15.900 - 00:35:32.880

I saw them go off and go down to the train terminal, and I didn't know when I was going to see them again. It was very, very hard. Kelly: How do you think it changed the heart of America, World War II?

00:35:34.720 - 00:35:55.880

McIntire: I think it changed it completely, just completely. Things that were important before Pearl Harbor became very meaningless. I think it brought families closer together. Tell me, when is the first time that an airplane interested you?

00:35:57.130 - 00:36:12.260

Well, when this cute little blonde gal, fella, as you can see, I have always been attracted to cute little guys. I met him at the Hickby Department Store and he offered, he wanted to know if I wanted to go for an airplane ride.

00:36:12.940 - 00:36:23.180

And I said, "Oh, sure." So he took me out to Willoughby Airport and we had a ride. Just after that, I was just hooked. Did your mom and dad know you were going for a ride?

00:36:23.240 - 00:36:37.980

No. They didn't know I was taking flying lessons, until I got to the point where I had to tell them because I was away so much. From that first--what was that first airplane ride?

00:36:38.140 - 00:36:55.060

It was in a Piper Cub. The fellow's name was Earl Janicki, and he was from Garfield Heights in Cleveland. He later left Higbee's store and joined the Royal Canadian Air Force. This was before Pearl Harbor.

00:36:55.920 - 00:37:15.560

And then after Pearl Harbor, he left the Canadian Air Force and joined the Navy. Kelly: From the time you took that first ride, what time elapsed before you started taking flying lessons? McIntire: Oh, probably not more than just a few months.

00:37:16.060 - 00:37:27.800

Kelly: Did you know any other girls who were flying? McIntire: No. I did not know any other boys that were flying. I just wanted to go out there and do it myself.

00:37:29.020 - 00:37:49.440

Kelly: And what made you think that you could do that when you did not know any other girls who were doing it? McMillan: It is an unexplained fascination that flying has and gets hold of people. I just felt that I needed to do something like that.

00:37:53.300 - 00:38:06.260

Kelly: Were you still living at home? McMillan: Yes. I was still living at home. Kelly: Tell me about how did you choose an instructor, how did you find them?

00:38:06.260 - 00:38:39.440

McIntire: After I started taking lessons, my first instructor was Frank Sanzo, and he had a little flying school on one side of Willoughby Airport in Ohio. While I was taking my first lessons, after I soloed, there was a line boy on the other side of the field who was working for the FBO there that I became enamored with.

00:38:39.460 - 00:39:07.720

We started dating, and he was an instructor. With that in place, I started to meet some of the other women on the field. Then I met Marge Hurlburt, and I met her cousin, and I met another gal named J.J. Lothrop. The four of us decided that it would be much cheaper to pool our resources and buy an airplane,

00:39:08.380 - 00:39:27.500

and then just pay for the instructor and the airplane. That's what we did. After I soloed, I switched from Mr. Sanzo's instruction over to Bob's instructions. Declan: Describe that first solo flight.

00:39:27.960 - 00:39:43.500

McMillan: Oh, it was great. The first thing that I became very, very conscious of was how fast the airplane took off and how light it was. I could see, he did not have his head in the way.

00:39:45.930 - 00:40:02.480

Kelly: How many times did you make landings on that first solo? Reifel: We had to go around three times. We had to do that three times. Kelly: Then when you changed instructors, what kind of airplane were you flying?

00:40:02.480 - 00:40:20.140

Reifel: I was flying a Taylorcraft. I owned one quarter interest of that Taylor Craft, and I had to make payments, $25 a month for my share. I forgot how much it was, probably not more than $300 or $400.

00:40:21.460 - 00:40:32.280

That was the biggest commitment I think I had made in my life up until that time. And then how did you pay for gas? Did you split it up? Yeah, I guess we did.

00:40:34.220 - 00:40:49.740

And how long after you soloed did you finally tell your mom and dad what you were doing? I do not remember how long. Do you remember their reaction? I was very much surprised.

00:40:51.500 - 00:41:06.140

I remember I was helping my mom do the laundry. In those days we had the washing machines that you had to pull the clothes through a ringer and then she boiled them. I was helping her take the clothes from the boiling out.

00:41:08.660 - 00:41:28.460

Whenever I had something on my mind, I recall now that I unknowingly became very chatty. I think she had a suspicion that something was on my mind, because I became very chatty. I told her that I was taking aviation lessons. I didn't want flying to frighten her.

00:41:32.200 - 00:41:44.940

She said, "Oh, yeah." She didn't really say much after that. So I thought, "Well, she didn't say I couldn't do it." And how did you tell your dad?

00:41:45.680 - 00:41:55.580

Oh, need to change tapes. You are great. You are great. Listen, I think this is so neat.

00:41:56.440 - 00:42:04.500

What an inspiration. I think you're our very first full-blooded boy that I went to high school with. Really? Never, not one date.

00:42:04.700 - 00:42:12.200

Okay. I'm ruling. Okay. Tell me about when you told your dad that you were married to a black man.

00:42:12.200 - 00:42:34.740

Well, in our home, we communicated mostly with our dad through my mother. So she had the chore of telling him. I know in later years, after I came home from the WASP, I had never seen a prouder parent than he was, because he would tell everybody and anybody who would listen that his daughter

00:42:34.900 - 00:42:46.180

flew airplanes. [Laughter] When did you first hear, and how did you hear, about a training program to train women to fly military aircraft?

00:42:48.760 - 00:43:07.040

When I started flying out of Willoughby Airport, I had left my job and took a job at Willoughby Airport as the clearance officer. For that, they paid me $25 a week and a half an hour of instruction, which I got from Mr. Sanzo.

00:43:08.380 - 00:43:29.680

While I was there, this is when Marge Hurlburt, who was teaching school at the time—she was somewhat older than I and had heard about it. She came in one day and was talking about it and her comment to me was, "You're going to join, aren't you?"

00:43:29.680 - 00:43:38.760

I said, "Oh, sure." And that's the way I got into it. I didn't know Jacqueline Cochran from anybody. [Laughter]

00:43:39.480 - 00:43:59.780

>> Then do you recall when you applied for training? Yes, I applied and then I got some correspondence back saying I wasn't of age because I hadn't been 21 yet. But I waited and perhaps maybe that's one of the reasons I got in the second last class

00:44:00.660 - 00:44:17.720

because I didn't get in until April of '44. But I already had my private pilot license and I had the hours and I was raring to go. But at that time the age limit was 21. Did they go ahead and interview you?

00:44:18.500 - 00:44:41.720

Oh yes. I had to go to Columbus, Ohio to Lockburn Army Air Base. I had to take a train down there. I was interviewed by Ethel Sheehy. At that time, she was also letting the women know that

00:44:41.700 - 00:45:00.240

The 99s was a great organization, and she gave me an application to join the 99s. I had never heard of the 99s, and I still have that application. I never did send it in, and I did join in Cleveland in later, later years, but somehow I just kept that application.

00:45:00.700 - 00:45:28.760

After the interview, what time elapsed before you were notified to get the physical, for example? That I don't remember, but it probably couldn't have been more than a few months. Then we went back down to Columbus to get the physical. Was that an unusual experience for you, that physical?

00:45:33.560 - 00:46:02.000

Yes. First of all, I don't think I'd ever been out of Cleveland. I had only been out of Cleveland once where I had flown. No, no, I had been out of Cleveland. I did. I had flown in a DC-3 to go to Michigan State to a dance. But I had never really gone out on something like that.

00:46:02.760 - 00:46:30.700

And when I got there, of course, it's all male-oriented. And I was very intimidated and very apprehensive. And I remember telling this one man who was testing how important this was, and I would just be devastated if I did not pass this test.

00:46:32.160 - 00:46:54.220

And it was just something that I just had to be accepted for to do. And then you were notified that you were not old enough? No, this was after I became old enough is when I went down. They didn't call me until after I was 21.

00:46:55.000 - 00:47:17.120

Okay. And at that point, did you--the other girls that you had known, had she already gone in? She had already gone in. I was getting correspondence from her. Okay, so you really knew what to expect. I really wanted to go in. Okay, did your mom and dad know that you were applying to leave home?

00:47:19.960 - 00:47:40.160

Oh, I can't remember that. I don't know whether she was, I don't think she was. I just told her when I got accepted. Okay, what did the rest of your siblings think about you? I didn't get any reaction. Even from your brothers who were in the service?

00:47:40.360 - 00:47:53.160

Well, my brothers were already gone. My two younger brothers were still in school, except my second youngest brother. He was in high school. But I don't recall that I got any reaction from them.

00:47:53.660 - 00:48:14.220

Did any other members of your family ever fly or want to fly? No. We did not even own a car when we were growing up. I did not learn to drive until after I had already soloed, learned how to fly.

00:48:14.900 - 00:48:34.360

At the airport, when I was working as a clearance officer, one of my duties was to go into town to the post office to pick up the mail. They had a Model A car there that I was supposed to do that, so they took me out and taught me how to drive so I could go up there and get the mail.

00:48:35.980 - 00:49:00.080

Did any of your family ever come out and watch you fly? My parents never did, but I gave my two younger brothers rides that I remember, or my youngest brother. I guess it was my youngest brother who came out for a ride. The other one, I think, maybe had already gone to the Navy.

00:49:00.230 - 00:49:20.340

Kelly: How were you notified to report to Sweetwater? McIntire: By letter. Kelly: And then how did you get from Cleveland out to Sweetwater? McIntire: Well, I guess when I went down for the exam at Lockburn, I met the other gals

00:49:20.340 - 00:49:40.680

who were going to be reporting at the same time. And there were three others there. One was Betty Stagg-Turner, another one was Lillian—oh, and I can't remember her name. She eventually washed out.

00:49:41.040 - 00:49:59.140

And then Thelma Hench Kennedy. Thelma, later, for some reason, she was supposed to drive down with us in Lillian's car, and she could not make it, so she ended up in W-10. Kelly: You drove the three of you?

00:49:59.140 - 00:50:18.900

McMillan: We drove down, and we had to have coupons, because gasoline was rationed. Lillian had enough coupons to get us down there. What was your main goal in entering training? What did you think you would be accomplishing?

00:50:23.600 - 00:50:40.440

Was it a patriotic? Steele: It was a little bit of both. I knew that the war was uppermost in my mind, and I knew that the purpose of the program be in that effort.

00:50:42.900 - 00:51:02.700

I can't deny that I was absolutely intrigued with the possibility of flying these wonderful aircraft and I didn't have to pay for it. Kelly: When you arrived at Sweetwater, what were your impressions? Had you been to Texas before?

00:51:02.850 - 00:51:23.140

McMillan: No, I had not. This was really my first long, long trip away from Ohio. When we got to Sweetwater, we saw all these women with suitcases and dressed in civilian clothes.

00:51:26.560 - 00:51:39.800

Oh, wait a minute. I forgot a very important thing here. Kelly: Let's go back. I drove down with the women up until we got to Terrell, Texas.

00:51:39.940 - 00:52:00.520

I do not remember how I got to Terrell, Texas. But that is where my boyfriend, or a friend of mine, was getting his wings. I had made arrangements to go to his graduation. He was at a British flying training school.

00:52:02.920 - 00:52:31.800

So when I went to Terrell, I went to his graduation and I pinned on his wings. He is the gentleman that I ultimately married after he came home from his overseas tour. So then from there, I took either a bus or a train into Sweetwater. Then I do not know how I got to the base, but I showed up when I needed to.

00:52:32.200 - 00:52:39.780

Let me go back and ask you, this young man, is he the one you fell in love with as a first grader or something? Steele: No, no. No.

00:52:39.860 - 00:52:52.980

Kelly: When had you become interested in him? At what stage? Steele: Well, he was at Willoughby Airport. He was flying out there at the other FBO across the field.

00:52:55.220 - 00:53:26.680

He was a roommate of the young man that I was dating and who was instructing me. So we were keeping in touch. But when I had a falling out with my instructor—incidentally, his name was Bob Strassilfer. I had a falling out with him. I was corresponding with Erwin, and he's the one I eventually

00:53:26.920 - 00:53:40.120

married. Kelly: Until you pinned those wings on, it was just a correspondence, kind of falling in love over them? Reifeldt: Yeah, we kind of fell in love after I got in the WASP, and we corresponded and

00:53:40.120 - 00:53:59.820

all, things like that. Then you arrived at Sweetwater. Tell me about that first day going out to Avenger Field. Well, the Texas horizon always intrigued me because it was so bare.

00:54:01.580 - 00:54:23.960

The landscape was so bare. Being a city girl, this was a whole new thing for me. But to see all those airplanes and all those women, it was very exciting. I had never been to college, so I did not have any experience in a dormitory-type existence.

00:54:25.100 - 00:54:38.900

Living in the bays was a whole new experience for me. Having to undress in front of somebody else, that was a new experience. I was going to ask you what was the biggest adjustment. I am dressing in front of somebody else.

00:54:39.120 - 00:54:54.080

Even though you grew up with eight siblings. Yeah. Describe the barracks where you lived. Well, the barracks were wooden and they were in rows.

00:54:55.960 - 00:55:13.220

As I remembered, we had six to a barrack, and we called them bays. They had cots. You had a cot, and then you had a cabinet where you put your clothes, and then you had a footlocker where you kept all your personal items, and that was your space.

00:55:16.560 - 00:55:39.520

Everything was arranged alphabetically. If one of the girls happened to wash out, then they moved him up alphabetically. I think I need some water. Tell me what a typical day would be like at Avenger.

00:55:41.000 - 00:56:04.520

Well, you would get up to the sound of taps, and you would hurry up and get into these mechanics coveralls, which was our work uniform, the olive drab. I remember mine, I had to hem them about six inches because they were too big. We would assemble in formation and go to breakfast.

00:56:05.620 - 00:56:29.280

Of course, you had to go into the shower and all that kind of stuff first. But we usually could take care of that in about a very few minutes. Then after breakfast, they had this schedule arranged so that you either flew in the morning or in the afternoon, and when you were not flying, you were in ground school.

00:56:31.440 - 00:57:02.180

We had the regular curriculum of the ground school courses that you had to take, including Morris Code, and engines and weather and navigation, and so on. And then after your flying periods were over, or at the end of the day, then you could go back to your barracks and—oh, no, wait a minute.

00:57:02.560 - 00:57:23.060

You went back to your barracks to clean up, to go to your ground school. And then after your – depending on what time of the day or whether you had flown in the morning or the afternoon, when it was time for supper, then you assembled again and marched to the mess hall.

00:57:24.220 - 00:57:41.120

Tell me about your bay mates. Oh, they were wonderful. I was the youngest one in that group, and I really grew up in the WASP. I was so naive and did not really know much about anything.

00:57:44.140 - 00:58:09.300

My baymates were Jenny Trumbo. Her name was Potthoff during training. She had graduated from University of Utah. Mary Ann Showers, who became the federal judge, Judge Ritchie in Tucson.

00:58:15.020 - 00:58:38.320

She was a dear lady. Jean Reimer, she had the most beautiful body I've ever seen on a woman. It was just like bisque, white, pure. Her face, her complexion was just so creamy.

00:58:40.000 - 00:58:57.580

She was strange, and I don't mean strange in a derogatory sense, but she just had—she went by her own drummer. Dorothy Picture was there. She was a sweet thing.

00:58:57.580 - 00:59:10.280

She always wore long braids. And Sarah Rui. And I believe that was it. How many did I name, whatever?

00:59:11.640 - 00:59:20.540

Those are the ones I remember. Did any of your baymates wash out? Yes. No, take that back.

00:59:22.800 - 00:59:35.420

One of our members of Flight 2, I was in Flight 2, and one of our Flight 2 members washed out. Oh, wait a minute. You said washed out.

00:59:37.580 - 00:59:58.860

Yes, Kate Porter washed out, and I think for a short time she was in our bay. I remember how difficult that was, because they washed her out just a few weeks before graduation, and I have never understood that. But they didn't feel she was going to be safe to herself.

00:59:59.900 - 01:00:24.960

What were some of the reasons that would wash a girl out? Well, either she didn't have the skill, capability, or she didn't have the discipline, or she was just a square peg in a round hole. What were some of the regulations that you had to follow, some of the rules?

01:00:25.580 - 01:00:45.980

Some of the rules were that you—they had rules about hair. You had to have your hair in a white turban. had to, when you had weekend leave, there was a restriction on how many miles distance you could go. I could tell you a great story about that.

01:00:46.440 - 01:01:01.280

Go ahead. Oh, now? Go ahead. Jenny Trumbull was in the, she is the trainee who had an eye infection and

01:01:01.280 - 01:01:19.100

and ended up at the hospital at Big Spring. And while she was there, incidentally, she almost went blind with that infection, but her husband was a military,

01:01:19.300 - 01:01:29.480

so she was able to go as the wife of a military. And she met some pilots there. And when we went on, when she came back and joined our class,

01:01:31.580 - 01:01:52.920

On that one weekend, he had to do a training flight, and he had access to a C-45. I think it was a C-45 or AT-11, I cannot remember. So Ginny was able to invite me and Sarah Ruby on this trip. It was more than the 50 miles.

01:01:53.000 - 01:02:14.860

We went to Palm Springs, California. We had a good time, but coming home we had a little problem because we got back to Big Springs okay, but we could not get transportation from Big Springs to Sweetwater. We were really nervous because the time was getting short.

01:02:14.860 - 01:02:49.920

We had to be back by seven, I believe it was. So we started hitchhiking. I don't know if I can get this out. I got the giggles.

01:02:53.440 - 01:03:04.600

Oh dear. [Laughter] Well, okay, I think I'm okay now. Okay. So we had to hitchhike back in order to make it back by seven.

01:03:05.620 - 01:03:21.340

And there was a transport, a big, big semi transporting sheep, and that's how we got back to Sweetwater just before seven o'clock. And did you ride back in the back with the sheep? No. I don't know where we--I guess it was in the cab.

01:03:21.340 - 01:03:39.780

Somehow, they managed to put us in the cab. Describe for me your solo flight at Avenger Field. Oh. Who was your instructor?

01:03:40.320 - 01:04:02.020

My primary instructor was Fred Hall. He was a very good instructor, but he terrified me on our first flight, or one of my first flights, because one of the things he said to me, "Okay, now you have a private pilot license.

01:04:03.400 - 01:04:33.120

Show me how to do a spin." I'd only done spins in Taylorcraft and Cubs, so I just went through the textbook procedure for spins and spun that Stearman, which at that point looked like a humongous airplane. And I did very well, and I did everything as the book says you should do, except I got

01:04:32.980 - 01:04:53.000

a little nervous on the recovery, and I gave it full throttle. I got his attention. But he pulled it back and said, "What did you do that for?" I said, "I guess I got a little nervous."

01:04:53.000 - 01:05:11.940

But that was it. But the solo part, I remembered again how light the airplane is when you're the only one in the airplane. By then, it just seemed like I had transitioned to the dual to get into the stairman.

01:05:12.820 - 01:05:27.360

I don't remember how many hours it took, but it took what it needed to take, because otherwise I would have been up for a check ride. It was quite an experience. Kelly: How did you enjoy ground school?

01:05:27.440 - 01:05:42.580

McMillan: I loved the ground school. What was your favorite subject? I loved navigation and I loved I like code. I like code. It was a challenge and I could keep up with it

01:05:44.840 - 01:05:58.780

And Excuse me. What was the personnel like at Avenger Field? The staff? The staff. I thought they were great Okay, I thought as far as their makeup Were they Army people, were they civilians?

01:05:59.050 - 01:06:30.780

Well, the instructors that were assigned to give me the dual instruction were all civilians. I had all males except one, and I had a female instructor for my AT-6 in cross country. I don't remember her name, but it's in my logbook. And then for the Czech rides, they were Army.

01:06:32.040 - 01:06:54.780

And I guess their role was to be sure we were learning the Army way to do things. Kelly: And then as far as the commanding officer of the base, were those people civilians or Army? The commanding officer was military, and then the staff, we had what we called establishment

01:06:55.040 - 01:07:21.420

officers. They were women who had charge of a certain group of women. Then the administrative head of the base, under the colonel of course, was Leodi Deaton. She was sort of like a housemother over a great big air base.

01:07:21.970 - 01:07:40.800

She did, I thought, a marvelous job. She could usually solve all the problems that needed to be solved. She was a wonderful lady. Tell me, describe what the auxiliary field was all about.

01:07:42.740 - 01:08:01.420

Well, it was—well, the auxiliary field. In order to be able to get enough practice in for your practice landings and things, they could not have all the students doing them in one—the main air base. There would just be too much traffic.

01:08:02.400 - 01:08:20.780

What they would do is they would have auxiliary fields off a few miles away from the normal traffic pattern of the airport. Then when it was your time to fly, you would fly to the auxiliary field, either dual or solo, whichever happened to be the case.

01:08:21.500 - 01:08:39.900

Then you would be flying off that field, and you would learn how to solo on that field first before you came to the main field to solo. Kelly: How was the training divided up as far as from the time you got there until you graduated?

01:08:40.100 - 01:09:00.860

McIntire: Well, we started in its primary in the Stearman. Most of the later classes were in the Stearman. At one point in time, the services all changed their primary aircraft from the PT-19 to the Stearman.

01:09:02.880 - 01:09:26.460

So when we got there, the field all had Stearman. From the Stearman, we went—for a while, they were going to the BT-13 for intermediate, But then I think what they did was they shifted over and put you right into an AT-6. And then they gave you the instrument training in the BT-13.

01:09:27.780 - 01:09:46.380

And then you had a cross-country in both—I had cross-country in both the PT-17 and the AT-6. Those were the long cross-countries. Kelly: Are you aware of how that program was different from the program for the military

01:09:46.740 - 01:10:02.160

cadets who were trained? McIntire: Yes. Basically, it was the same as the cadet training, except they did not provide any training that the cadets got that would train them for combat.

01:10:03.560 - 01:10:21.300

That was not our purpose. Our purpose was to relieve the male pilots so that they could go to combat. There was all kinds of flying that had to be done that did not necessarily need to have people who were combat trained.

01:10:23.780 - 01:10:37.700

Where did you have your meals? How was the food? The training, all of our meals were in the mess hall. I would say it was very good and was adequate.

01:10:41.260 - 01:11:05.620

When I was stationed at Waco after graduation, I guess we ate at the officers club, or they must have had a cafeteria there. I do not have too much of a recollection of where I ate there. Kelly: How many hours did you have to get in that stearman before you moved to the next

01:11:05.740 - 01:11:15.620

phase, do you recall? McIntire: No, I do not. About seventy. I was going to say forty, but I think maybe it was seventy.

01:11:16.140 - 01:11:36.720

I do not remember the other groups. In fact, I have been asked to make presentations to different groups about the VOSS program and the training program. I had that pretty well committed to memory at the time, but I do not remember now.

01:11:36.880 - 01:12:03.480

Kelly: While you were in training, did you have time off on weekends? Weekends, occasionally you could leave the base. I do not remember about—I guess you could get off the base on weekends. Kelly: Describe the weather while you were at Avenger.

01:12:03.790 - 01:12:33.900

McMillan: Hot and dry and windy and sandy. Kelly: How did that affect your flying? Well, I can remember in primary, I almost ground looped because of the wind. I wasn't correcting properly for the crosswind.

01:12:35.200 - 01:12:59.180

But then I don't recall any impact of weather after that, except when the weather was bad, You could not fly, and you would get behind on your hours. You were anxious to graduate, and you wanted to get those hours in and get going. Kelly: As far as your living conditions, did you have air conditioning?

01:13:01.460 - 01:13:20.060

Lowry: No, we did not have air conditioning. The only air conditioning we had was to open the windows, or if it got too hot, we used to move the cots outside and sleep outside. That was kind of nice, because you could sleep under the stars, and it was very pleasant.

01:13:21.210 - 01:13:43.980

Kelly: Were there some rules and some inspections that you might have had with your— McIntire: Yeah, we had weekly inspections. I do not know if they were weekly or not, but we had inspections of the maze. The beds had to be made so that the inspecting officer could bounce a coin off them.

01:13:43.980 - 01:14:00.580

We had to have square corners. They came in unexpectedly. You knew they were going to be there at some time, but you did not know the exact hour. I can remember this one inspection.

01:14:03.120 - 01:14:28.400

Gene Reimer had had to make up some flying time while the rest of us were cleaning up She came in after her flying, and we had the bay all cleaned up. Just as she was changing and getting dressed, story goes that the inspecting officer came in and said, "Attention."

01:14:28.500 - 01:14:46.640

She just dropped everything and stood there. I wasn't there, but that's the story as they tell it. Kelly: When you finished your primary training, did you have some time off between that and the next phase?

01:14:46.860 - 01:14:57.740

McMillan: I do not remember any. I do not remember any time off. Kelly: During your training time, were you ever afraid? McMillan: Yes.

01:14:59.840 - 01:15:28.880

My biggest fear was I was going to wash out. It was so important to me to make that program, to get through the program and get my wings. The failure was just unthinkable. Sometimes in flying, when I had my first forced landing, I did very well up until the end,

01:15:29.660 - 01:15:59.220

and then I could hardly walk. I always call that my lucky forced landing, because in primary, Mr. Hill was not too satisfied the way I was doing my emergency procedures for my emergency landings. He had me scheduled for a checkride.

01:16:00.460 - 01:16:23.720

I had a checkride with a civilian check pilot, and apparently I did not do too well with him either. They had me scheduled for a checkride with the military. That was of great concern, because that was very ominous, because the next step, if you

01:16:23.730 - 01:16:42.340

did not do that, you were out. In the meantime, I had some solo time to get in. They had scheduled a ride, but I was in a Stearman flying, my solo time practicing, I think it was Shandells or something.

01:16:44.620 - 01:17:05.420

All of a sudden, I was in an idle position, and I went to give it more power, and the throttle was not reacting. I must have been—I was at altitude, and so I noticed I was losing altitude and I couldn't give the airplane any power.

01:17:05.640 - 01:17:21.940

So I thought, "Well, I guess I'm coming down." So I spotted a field and landed. As it turned out, I did a textbook landing. Didn't hurt anything or anybody or got down and

01:17:24.580 - 01:17:48.040

Landed in a Texas cabbage field and As a matter of fact was a plowed Texas cabbage field my instructor was not too happy because it was plowed But We used to have to carry a little notebook in our breast pocket with our emergency procedures

01:17:48.040 - 01:18:06.940

We were required to follow those procedures if we had an emergency. So got out the little book, and the first thing we had to do was to, besides taking care of the airplane, was to call the base. Then we had to call the base.

01:18:07.530 - 01:18:21.820

I looked around, there wasn't anything around. There was a farmhouse quite a ways. So I got out of the airplane with my chute still on and walked across these cabbage rows to get to the farmhouse.

01:18:23.380 - 01:18:38.200

And obviously I was very nervous because if I had been thinking properly, I would have left the chute in the airplane instead of having it hit me on the rump all the way to the farmhouse. So we got to the farmhouse and they did not have a phone.

01:18:40.100 - 01:19:04.420

But one of the rules was I had to guard the airplane. So the only other person besides the farmer was his sixteen-year-old daughter. So we got her to go out to the airplane and sit by it and make sure nobody stole it. Then we got into the farmer's truck and went into town, and I called the engineering officer.

01:19:06.060 - 01:19:31.180

Then he came out and got me, and everything was okay. Later I found out that you always think that you've done something wrong to let that airplane quit or you didn't do the right thing to get it started again. Well, it turned out that a mechanic had forgotten to put a cotter pin in the throttle quadrant

01:19:31.890 - 01:19:46.000

and the thing came apart. the rod to the engine, there was just no control on it. So then I felt a lot better about that. Then when I graduated, I had the engineering officer pin my wings.

01:19:46.800 - 01:20:06.100

So later, Ms. Deaton told me, this was at one of the reunions, that, well see, they canceled my check ride with the military. I continued on with the program, but she told me that if I hadn't passed that, I probably wouldn't have.

01:20:06.880 - 01:20:17.480

If I hadn't had that forced landing and shown that I could do it, that I would have been out of the program. Right. When the engineering officer came out to get you, did he find out what was wrong and you

01:20:17.500 - 01:20:37.380

go back in the airplane? No, I didn't go back into the airplane. They sent mechanics out, I guess, and they had somebody fly it out, but I didn't have to go back out. In fact, they gave me half a day off. I had to report to the doctor,

01:20:37.660 - 01:20:56.500

you know, after every emergency you always report to the doctor, make sure you're alright. But I had a half day off. So you finished primary and then your next phase you went into the AT6. How did that make you feel, the first time you went up in that AT6?

01:20:58.280 - 01:21:09.500

My words were, "Oh, God." It was such a big airplane. We had to learn the instrument panel. We had blindfold.

01:21:09.980 - 01:21:29.520

We had to identify each instrument in place, blindfolded, which I was able to do. But after I got comfortable in it, then it was a beautiful airplane. Who was your instructor in the 86? I had more than one, but I do not remember their names.

01:21:30.330 - 01:22:00.000

Kelly: What procedures did you learn to do in that AT-6? Was it just straight flying? Steele: Well, in flying, we had to do takeoffs and landings and a few of the maneuvers. We had little things to remember, the checklist for landing and for taking off, which I remember

01:22:00.000 - 01:22:23.140

to this day. CIGF TPR, they included that in the song once, I guess we all remembered it. We did our cross-country, they trained us in cross-country. I guess they were preparing us in case we had to ferry AT-6s from one base to another

01:22:23.340 - 01:22:29.860

or from wherever. Kelly: Change tape? Reid: Change tape. Kelly: Okay.

01:22:30.200 - 01:22:34.580

Reid: Change tape, wow. Kelly: One more tape? Do you need a break? Do you need some water?

01:22:34.580 - 01:22:40.000

Reid: I'll get some water. Kelly: I'll get you some water. Reid: Well, you're still going good. Kelly: Okay.

01:22:40.240 - 01:23:15.780

While you were in training, were any of the trainees injured or killed? Yes, Liana Roberts in my class was killed in a PT-17 in primary. I remember how devastated I felt, and I was shocked at how stoic some of the other women were, that it didn't seem to affect them like it did me.

01:23:18.100 - 01:23:37.980

I don't know who it was that talked to me. Remember, I'm still the youngest one in the group and didn't have a whole lot of experience with things like that. It was very difficult for me to get over that.

01:23:38.760 - 01:23:58.740

I did. Kelly: Are you aware of how they treated her body, for example, what happened afterwards? Lowry: No, I am not. I remember that we contributed some money, and I do not know how her burial was taken

01:23:58.760 - 01:24:31.080

care of. The money that I contributed to was used to set up a memorial set of encyclopedias or books or something at the University of California in Los Angeles. After the WASP, when I went to visit Ginny Potthoff there, we went to the campus and we looked up the books and it had all that information in the flyleaf of the book.

01:24:31.150 - 01:25:01.140

Kelly: Was she killed at Avenger or was she on a cross country? McIntire: No, she was on a training flight at Avenger. Kelly: Describe what instrument training was all about. Well, instrument training was to prepare you to, if you were ever caught in weather, that

01:25:01.140 - 01:25:23.260

you would know how to handle it. Even though most of the flights that the women were being prepared for had to be done by the visual flight rules. It was a very important part of the training.

01:25:26.520 - 01:25:45.820

We used to go up with the instructor, and you would be hooded. They would have a hood over you, and you would just fly with reference to the instruments. You learned how to keep the airplane straight and level, hold your altitude, make your turns, by looking at the instruments.

01:25:46.650 - 01:26:09.320

You learn to develop a great deal of confidence in those instruments. I never had to use that experience. Well, yes, I did once. The navigation system at that time was with the A—through Morse code, the A and the

01:26:09.360 - 01:26:39.720

N. I forgot the name of the system. On one cross-country, when I was just co-pilot and I was listening to the signals, when you came to your destination, you got a silence. Then you could locate yourself as to where you were by the kind of signals you were hearing.

01:26:40.380 - 01:26:59.440

I had told the pilot that he was going over the Cone of Silence, and I guess he did not believe me or did not have confidence in me or whatever. He was flying further out than he needed to. I guess we were headed towards New Orleans or Louisiana someplace.

01:27:00.560 - 01:27:18.460

When he got near the Gulf, he decided he better turn back. That was the one time I had to use it. Kelly: While you were in training, classes would graduate. What would the ceremonies be like when those classes graduated?

01:27:18.460 - 01:27:40.680

McIntire: Well, it was a big day for graduation. All of the other classes would have to march and review. They would have the dignitaries there on the reviewing stand, and they would have probably a military band or a high school band or some military music.

01:27:42.900 - 01:27:59.720

It was very exciting to march to that type of thing. That was the first experience for me. The graduating class then, the women would go up one at a time and be presented their wings.

01:28:01.640 - 01:28:10.500

Afterwards, everybody would be very congratulatory and all. Kelly: Right. Describe one of your cross-country trips. Where did you go?

01:28:11.700 - 01:28:47.140

Well, the AT-6 cross-country, our destination was Des Moines, Iowa. And we flew from—I'm confusing the PT-17 and the AT-6 trip. I do not remember all the destinations, but that was where we stayed overnight, and then came back and landing at the different stations.

01:28:47.910 - 01:29:01.120

Kelly: In the AT-6 on cross-countries, would you be solo or would you be an instructor? McIntire: Solo. No, you would be solo. We would go in a group, but we would take off one at a time, and you had to do your

01:29:01.220 - 01:29:33.940

own navigating. Kelly: Did anything unusual happen to you on any of your cross-country trips? In the primary trip on the PT-17—no, take that back, it was the AT-6—on the first stop, I got a little disoriented, and I was trying to follow my navigation on the map

01:29:33.940 - 01:29:54.280

so carefully that I could not find the thing that I was looking for. I thought I was lost, but I was not really. I was close enough to the destination that I called, and they guided me in. But other than that, I did not have any other trouble.

01:29:56.940 - 01:30:14.940

Can you describe your feelings when you were going to graduate? Lowry: Oh, excitement. Just very excited. Kelly: Did any of your family come?

01:30:15.270 - 01:30:35.140

Lowry: No. No, actually I did not have any family there, but it was very exciting. First of all, to have completed the course and to be part of this graduation, and secondly, to be up there in this new, brand-new outfit with nice insignia and all.

01:30:37.470 - 01:30:50.860

I was very proud, very, very proud. Kelly: Can you tell me about receiving that uniform? How long before you graduated did you receive your uniform? Lowry: Oh, it was part of the preparation ceremonies.

01:30:52.860 - 01:31:10.400

All during training, the only uniform we had were these khaki slacks and white blouses that we wore. But then when we were getting ready to graduate, they gave us all of our flying coveralls and our flying slacks and battle jackets and the whole thing.

01:31:11.220 - 01:31:39.020

For your class, do you recall any particular store or anything fitting you for those uniforms? Johansen. Yeah, we had to—I remember somebody by the name of Mrs. Webb, and I think she was doing all the fitting and all of that. Kelly: During the time you were at Avenger, were you in contact with your two brothers

01:31:39.070 - 01:31:42.240

who were in service? No. No. Okay.

01:31:44.490 - 01:31:55.460

At graduation, had you already received your orders of where you would be going? Yes. I believe we had. I knew I was going to Waco.

01:31:56.030 - 01:32:14.280

If it wasn't before, it was very quickly afterwards. I don't recall what that sequence was, but I knew that Ginny Potthoff and I were going to Waco. Tell me how you received and when you received the news that the WASP would be disbanded.

01:32:15.520 - 01:32:45.920

Well, we knew during the summer that the program was having a hard time. The congressional action that we needed was not going through very well. were being lobbied against by most of the CPT people and civilian pilot training people who were—the program was being disbanded and all these men were afraid they were going

01:32:45.920 - 01:33:10.220

to go to the walking army. They were very successful in drumming up a lot of resentment towards the WASP. It was absolutely heartbreaking. I always say that's the saddest day, one of the saddest days of my life, when at Waco

01:33:10.360 - 01:33:26.020

Army Air Base we stood in review while the troops passed in review and saluted us. Sad. Were you given a choice of assignments? Yes, I wanted to go to Columbus.

01:33:29.560 - 01:33:42.960

It's close to home. Kelly: Then how did you get—oh, first let me ask you, were there some dignitaries that came for your graduation? Steele: Yes, there were.

01:33:49.100 - 01:34:09.660

I know Jacqueline Cochran was there and the commander of the base I believe was there, but I'm sorry I didn't check that before I came to you, but I don't remember who they were. Okay, and Miss Cochran is the one who gave you your wings? Yes.

01:34:10.200 - 01:34:24.620

Okay, how proud did that make you feel? Oh, very proud. By then I had learned who Miss Cochran was. [Laughter] Then did you have some time off between graduation?

01:34:24.740 - 01:34:50.680

Yeah, yeah, they did. They gave us a few days off to travel, and they gave us time for us to report. And I remember it was the weekend, or not the weekend, but it covered the election. And there was a presidential election going on right then, and I think that's when President Roosevelt was re-elected for the last time, I believe.

01:34:52.200 - 01:35:29.620

And it's all very fuzzy, but somewhere in there, we went someplace where we met Victor a tour, the movie actor, and they gave us a lift in his transportation someplace and he was all gung-ho for the election. And that whole incident is very fuzzy because I can't remember everything but it has stayed with me over the years.

01:35:31.380 - 01:35:49.300

What was your assignment? We were called engineering test pilots. This was a British flying training school, and they were training cadets. They were flying AT-6s there and BT-13s.

01:35:49.780 - 01:36:09.160

When those planes needed to be repaired, we used to take them up after repair and check them out and make sure they were okay for the cadets to fly them. On the BT-13s, when they change an engine, an engine would have to be slow-timed to kind of break it in.

01:36:09.940 - 01:36:25.100

We'd go up there and slow-time the engine. We had a pattern. We had to fly around the airbase at a reduced altitude. I remember we had to take off at reduced power.

01:36:27.880 - 01:36:39.400

And then keep flying an hour, whatever it was we had to fly, at reduced power, and then come in. What airbase was this? Waco Army Air Base.

01:36:40.660 - 01:36:52.720

In Texas? In Texas, uh-huh. This is where Ginny and I were sent. When you arrived at the airbase, were there already WASPs stationed there?

01:36:53.160 - 01:37:20.600

Yes, there were six WASPs already there. They were housed in the, I believe, WAC quarters or nurses' quarters, I've forgotten which. Also we learned that just a very, very short time before we had arrived, that one of the WASPs had been killed while she was testing an airplane.

01:37:22.440 - 01:37:42.660

I don't remember her name either. Do you recall if that frightened you? It gave me cause for concern, but I don't recall that it kept me from doing anything. Do you remember to whom you reported when you arrived?

01:37:42.660 - 01:38:00.780

Oh, yes. We had the most gracious commanding officer we could have had, Colonel Robert Arnold. He was one of the military that was very much in favor of the program and would do anything to keep it going.

01:38:00.920 - 01:38:32.720

Kelly: Can you give me a description about the base and Waco itself? McMillan: Well, all I remember about the base was the flight line. We had to go to the flight line, and I remember the barracks were wooden buildings. I believe Ginny and I had—I think we were in the same room.

01:38:33.520 - 01:38:51.280

But I did not remember the town of Waco, because we never got off the base. I did not have transportation. None of us had transportation, but we did get off the base once when Ginny and I went horseback riding with a couple of officers.

01:38:53.080 - 01:39:12.660

And that is all I recall. Kelly: When the WASPs were deactivated, what did the base—did the base do anything special for you girls? Well, they had a special parade and I guess flag raising.

01:39:14.040 - 01:39:34.340

This is when they passed in review and saluted the WASP. By then, we had I think five or six more women in the last class that were sent to Waco to spend their last weeks, just so they would have had the experience of reporting to a station.

01:39:34.470 - 01:39:52.500

Kelly: Okay. When you left Waco then, where did you go? Steele: I went back home, and one of the officers on the base and his wife were returning to Columbus, Ohio, driving.

01:39:53.600 - 01:40:10.760

So I rode home with them, this is after December 20th, as far as Columbus. And then I do not remember how I got from, I think I took a bus or train from Columbus to Cleveland in a cab home. Did you wear your uniform?

01:40:11.100 - 01:40:23.640

I was in uniform. And how proud did your mom and dad feel about that? Very proud, very proud. When you got back to Cleveland, then what did you do?

01:40:26.070 - 01:40:41.500

Well, it was a very difficult time. I knew we couldn't fly. They just—the country wasn't ready for it. I had promised Jenny that I would go out to California.

01:40:41.570 - 01:41:01.440

I had never been to California, never been outside of Texas. I hadn't been past the Mississippi River. I met Ginny in Las Vegas, where her mother-in-law lived. Then from there, we went to San Francisco.

01:41:03.420 - 01:41:23.680

Then I got a job at the Alameda Naval Air Station. I was inventorying aircraft before they were going on to carriers, Navy aircraft. components and the reason that I was selected, because they could identify airplane parts and components.

01:41:24.720 - 01:41:34.840

We had a checklist we had to do. But it was fun crawling all over Corsairs and TBMs and all of that kind of thing. Kelly: But you were not known as "Rosie the Riveter." Lowry: No.

01:41:35.120 - 01:41:53.360

Kelly: Did Jenny work at the same place? No, she had a job, a secretarial job that her past acquaintances got her into. In the meantime, were you corresponding with this young man that you pinned his wings on? Yes.

01:41:53.860 - 01:41:57.600

Okay. Yes. What were your social activities? Oh, excuse me.

01:41:59.740 - 01:42:07.260

Yes, I was corresponding then. Okay. So when you got to California, what were your social activities like? Not much.

01:42:08.700 - 01:42:29.300

I didn't stay too long, because I had heard from my family that my oldest brother was coming home from the South Pacific. I got very homesick, and I wanted to see him. I left after a couple of three months and went back to Cleveland.

01:42:30.460 - 01:42:41.120

I went to work for the Cleveland Army Air Base as an aircraft dispatcher. I worked there for a while. Did you live at home? I lived at home.

01:42:42.320 - 01:43:08.800

What were your responsibilities as an aircraft dispatcher? When the military would fly into Cleveland Army Air Base, they had to file a flight plan. Then I would call over to the other end of the field and get the weather for them, and then write down the weather and then approve the flight.

01:43:10.500 - 01:43:32.280

And that's pretty much what—as I remember it. Kelly: How long then did you work? I did not stay there very long either, several months or so. See, that is going far back.

01:43:34.840 - 01:43:47.160

Somewhere in there I got married. Kelly: Well, let us find out how that happened. McMillan: Well, by that time, Erwin came back from overseas. He was with the China Burma Indian Theater.

01:43:49.560 - 01:44:05.600

We got married in '46. Kelly: He never saw you in your uniform? McIntire: Well, when I came home from the WASP, he came home on leave. We did see each other in uniform.

01:44:06.180 - 01:44:20.120

Then that is when he had to go overseas. All the time that he was overseas, we were engaged. Tell us about your wedding. Well, it was a Catholic wedding.

01:44:21.120 - 01:44:49.540

Irwin was non-Catholic, so in those days the church's policy was that you could not be married inside the church, you had to be married in the parish house. So that's where we were married, and I had my best friend serve as my matron of honor. After the ceremony, my husband commented, "Gee, that took only six minutes."

01:44:49.640 - 01:45:09.040

We had a reception in East Cleveland in a very nice establishment that was like an old Southern mansion. It was not a big one, but it was for family and close friends. Kelly: Was he in uniform?

01:45:09.320 - 01:45:23.680

McIntire: Yes. Kelly: After your honeymoon, then what did you do? McIntire: Well, we did not have a honeymoon per se. He had to report to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, because he was still in uniform.

01:45:24.600 - 01:45:42.380

That is really where we went right after the wedding. We went to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, and were stationed there for several months, maybe a year, I do not know, until that is when we came back to Cleveland. Did you have quarters on the base?

01:45:42.700 - 01:45:54.840

No, we had housing not too far from the beach, a little house. What was his job at Myrtle Beach? He was a commissary officer. For a while he was doing some checkouts.

01:45:55.080 - 01:46:19.380

He was checking out some pilots on the A-26, I think. Then you came back to Cleveland, and then what did you do? Well then, I worked for the government. I got a job with the Bureau of Aeronautics representative at Thompson Products.

01:46:19.980 - 01:46:34.800

I had worked for Thompson Products for a few months while I was waiting. I had to earn my money to get to Sweetwater, and I earned it at Thompson Products as a plater's helper. They wanted to put me in the office, but I needed to earn more money, so I went into

01:46:34.860 - 01:46:50.680

the factory. I was racking nuts and bolts for plating. Then I went back to work in the Navy office that was at TRW. I was in the personnel department.

01:46:52.140 - 01:47:14.380

Let me back up a minute and ask you, at Myrtle Beach, during the time that you were there, How did you spend your time when he was on base? Well, I guess that was my first experience as a housewife. I learned to cook and kept house, I guess that was all I remember.

01:47:15.860 - 01:47:32.520

And then when you finished work in this factory, what did you do next? That was what I did before I went into the WASP. I had to earn some money to pay my way down there. And that's, as I recall, what I did.

01:47:33.300 - 01:47:50.140

When I came back, I worked for the Navy, and that started my career in government. I stayed with the government for thirty-three years. Kelly: Just civil service? McIntire: Civil service, and it was mostly Department of Defense.

01:47:53.560 - 01:48:12.820

After we were married, for a while, he got a job in Louisville, Kentucky, where I worked for the Louisville Ordnance Plant. Then he was transferred to Nashville, and I got a job with the Tennessee Military District. Then when he left that job and came back to Cleveland, then I worked for the Navy again.

01:48:14.420 - 01:48:32.800

I may have gotten these sequences confused a little bit, but from there the Department Defense combined all of their contract administration offices. They combined the Army, Navy, the Air Force, Coast Guard contract administration functions into one agency, and I worked for them.

01:48:33.370 - 01:49:04.220

I worked as a personnel officer and a program analyst. Then my ship came in and I applied for a job with the Federal Executive Board in Cleveland. That's an organization that's very similar to a chamber of commerce for the federal community. I was selected and became the first executive assistant, and then I became executive director.

01:49:04.940 - 01:49:18.740

I had the job for eight years. Levy, first woman? The first woman to do— No, I was not the first woman.

01:49:19.800 - 01:49:37.600

Or was I? I think I might have been, I do not know. I think I might have been the first woman in that job, I am not sure. your title was?

01:49:38.280 - 01:49:49.640

Executive Director. Then did you retire from the— I retired from that position. And then where did you—

01:49:49.920 - 01:50:10.180

From that position, then I got the old flying bug. I had not flown, to speak of, since I left the WASP. I made an effort back in the '60s and '70s to try to get back into flying. But my job was too demanding, and I knew I could not do it.

01:50:11.020 - 01:50:41.360

So when I retired, I decided I wanted to go someplace where I could do this full-time. So I locked my house up and went to Tulsa, Oklahoma, to Spartan School of Aeronautics. I revalidated my license, and I added a couple of ratings and liked it so well in Tulsa, I decided to stay.

01:50:42.000 - 01:51:00.000

A job opened up as an aircraft dispatcher – no, aircraft operations scheduler. I thought it would be fun to do that. While I was a student there, I was working as the airport operations. Kelly: What were you flying at that time?

01:51:00.090 - 01:51:29.940

McMillan: I was flying a Cessna 152, and then into a Cessna 172, and then into a Cessna with the retractable gear, and got my instrument rating and my instructor's rating. Kelly: Then did you instruct? McIntire: Very little.

01:51:30.320 - 01:51:42.940

They wanted me to instruct on Saturdays when their mechanic students got free ground school and were also flying. I tried that out. I did instruct at ground school for a semester.

01:51:47.320 - 01:52:14.580

I did have about maybe five or six students, but I decided I was working too hard. At that point in my life, I did not want to work that hard. Kelly: Did you ever have a student who resented a woman trying to teach them, do you feel? No, I didn't, but I did have some students in class that were quite a challenge for me

01:52:14.760 - 01:52:39.880

because I had had no experience dealing with young adults. And they were getting pretty porky, and I just didn't feel qualified to handle them. eventually we got through, but I can't really say I enjoyed that teaching experience. Was your husband still there at that time? No, he had passed away and I was a widow then.

01:52:40.580 - 01:52:59.420

I became a widow in 1979. And that's, it was after that that you decided you wanted to fly? Yes, I didnít have any compelling reason to stay in Cleveland, and so thatís why I went ahead and made the change. Right.

01:53:00.310 - 01:53:18.400

Did you ever have an urge to go back to school? Well yes. I learned that while I was advancing in my government career, I was having to review people's correspondence for accuracy and grammar and things like that.

01:53:19.220 - 01:53:42.000

And it had been a long time since I'd been in school, so I decided I better go to school and brush up. And that started me taking some college courses in the '50s and '60s. And then after, I had gone through Spartan and worked there for five years and then got

01:53:41.880 - 01:54:13.860

involved in my pet project, the biplane flying, I decided it was time for me to finish my college. And so I enrolled at Tulsa Community College, got the associate degree, and then I went on to the Oklahoma State University at Tulsa and got my Bachelor of Science in Aviation Science,

01:54:14.780 - 01:54:51.160

specializing in management. And I got my degree a month before my 75th birthday. Good for you. I was very proud of that. Right. And when you when did you actually retire? Retire? '81, 1981 is when I retired. And then what did you do? How did you spend your time after you retired? Well, I took two weeks off and went to visit some friends

01:54:51.120 - 01:55:12.500

in Florida and then after that I flew to Tulsa and went to Spartan and started flight training. So I put myself in that training mode and studying and went to ground school again. Been a lot of changes in 35-40 years. At some time you met someone else very special. Tell us about that?

01:55:13.170 - 01:55:41.820

Yes, well, I mentioned my pet project, the biplane fly-in. Well, back in 1987, when I came after Spartan at the airport at Jones Airport here, I noticed there were a lot of biplanes. First time I saw a stearman come in on final, I was in a 152 with an instructor waiting

01:55:41.820 - 01:56:05.560

take off and it actually gave me goosebumps because it reminded me of what I had been through at Sweetwater. And so I decided that I was going to buy a biplane and I did. I bought a Navy N3N and got checked out in it and built this hangar eventually.

01:56:06.380 - 01:56:36.360

And going to the fly-ins, I had heard at one of them that the subject came up about, "Wouldn't it be great to have an all-biplane fly-in?" And when I heard that, it just sparked something, and it gave me a thought, "Well, I'm going to go ahead and organize one."

01:56:36.360 - 01:57:07.960

So, I did. I was the catalyst and the founder of the first national biplane fly-in. I organized it and I used my experience as a program analyst and position classifier to set up an organization manual for it. I selected the members of the board. I provided the finances and I didn't want to accept anybody else's money, because I was afraid if it flopped, I didn't want

01:57:08.000 - 01:57:36.540

anybody to lose money on my whim of trying to do this fly-in. That first year, the fly-in got going, and we had ninety-nine airplanes show up. But then from that, the gentleman that I had asked to be the chairman was perfect for it, and really gave the project momentum.

01:57:37.860 - 01:57:57.120

We eventually, under his guidance, became a non-profit organization. He still is the chairman of the board. It has grown to be recognized all over the country as the Bartlesville Fly-In. That's where I met Loren L. Wilkinson.

01:57:57.880 - 01:58:18.100

He is an airplane builder. He builds HATS airplanes, and HATS is an experimental airplane. We had a mutual friend at Bartlesville at the exposition. By that time, Charlie had developed it into an exposition.

01:58:22.200 - 01:58:39.920

She knew that I was widowed, and she knew that Lauren was widowed, and she thought we'd make a good pair. So she was a couple of years trying to get us together, and she'd always remind him, "Have you seen Mary Jones yet?"

01:58:41.380 - 01:59:00.100

We finally got together and realized we had an awful lot in common, and that we thought we'd be good for each other. So we were married February 2, 2000. February the 2nd, we'll be celebrating our second anniversary.

01:59:01.420 - 01:59:25.160

Loren is a, besides being a hats builder, his career was as a commercial airline pilot. He flew for Western Airline, which became Delta, and he flew those—oh dear, it would kill me if I can't remember the name of the airplane—but these big jets, these huge jets.

01:59:25.620 - 01:59:44.140

Kelly: Yeah, and bigger and bigger. The L-10, 10-11, or something like that. What were the other qualities, other than you had something in common? What were the qualities about him that made you fall in love?

01:59:45.300 - 01:59:56.120

Reifeldt: He had a wonderful sense of humor and always told lots of stories. And has a wonderful sense of humor. Let me ask you— Steele: Very kind.

01:59:57.540 - 02:00:17.200

Kelly: Why did you build this hangar? Steele: Well, I built—I was renting a hangar from a gentleman by the name of John Bouteller, who I should mention because he was very instrumental in getting me into the N3N. He was my mentor.

02:00:18.700 - 02:00:41.960

During the years that I had the airplane, which was fourteen years, and during the time living, why he would be the one that I would rely on for all counsel and guidance on anything I did to that airplane. He owned the hangars where I hangared.

02:00:44.460 - 02:01:03.360

He once told me that if it wasn't that I had the N3N, he wouldn't have rented it to a woman. But at that time, it seemed like all of my friends were having hangers over on this side, and all of the activity was over on this side.

02:01:04.100 - 02:01:22.700

The other side of the airport is mostly commercial. It was just a matter of coming over to the private hangar area. Kelly: Now, what do you use your hangar for? Well, right now, I sold the N3N about five years ago.

02:01:24.560 - 02:01:51.580

When Loren flew his hats down from Yelm, Washington in 2001 for the Expo, he hangered it here until we got our new place built at Skyhaven Airpark. I have a friend that I permit to use the hanger. He's got a great collection of vintage airplanes, and if you have time, I'd love you to see

02:01:51.700 - 02:02:07.500

them. And occasionally, he has need for a space, and I share my space with him. The same man who heads up the Biplane Expo. And now, how do you spend your time?

02:02:09.040 - 02:02:26.500

Well, I'm learning. It's a new experience for me because I've had a career, I've worked all my life pretty much, and so I've learned how to become a housewife and become a good cook and plan meals and do things like that.

02:02:27.900 - 02:02:43.880

Kelly: What makes you happy? Lots of things make me happy. Lauren makes me happy.