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>> Not anymore. >> I don't think I could do that anymore, but it was great. With my kids growing up, I'd find a pantsuit, for example, on sale. And I'd find the right size at one Foley's, and then I'd go to another one to get

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the jacket, and another one to go to get the skirt. Eventually I'd have a whole outfit on sale. >> I got Joskies is where I was mostly. >> Yeah. >> I was out close to it.

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>> Right, that's why we had a job. >> And I'm gonna roll, I'm rolling. >> Okay, I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing, wanna start over?

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Okay, let's start over. Rolling, I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Mary Helen Burke. She is a WASP, class 43-7.

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We are in her home in Sand Springs, Oklahoma. It's the 26th of January, 2002. Okay, Mary Helen, if you will start off by giving us your name and when and where you were born.

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>> And my name is Mary Helen Burke, and I was born in La Porte, Indiana. My parents were there with Rumley Tractor Company at the time. >> Do you wanna tell us when you were born? >> 1915.

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>> Okay. >> January 30th. >> It's almost your birthday. >> Almost my birthday, right. >> Tell me about your parents.

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>> Well, they were great people. They were from Nebraska, married in 1911. Daddy had graduated in February, and they were married right then. And they came, they went to La Porte because of Rumley Tractor Company.

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Then I was born there, and my brother was born there. >> Okay, and what did your dad do for this tractor company? >> He was an engineer with Rumley. >> Okay, and where did you live when you were a little child?

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Where did you live? >> In Sand Springs, mostly, cuz we moved here from La Porte. I was just a couple years old. >> Okay, and is your brother older or younger?

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>> He's two years older than I. >> Okay. And why did your family move to Sand Springs, Oklahoma? >> Well, Uncle Charlie, as I call him, Charles Page built the town.

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Was a very wealthy man who owned everything around here. And he built the town, and he brought my daddy here with the, he had a big chief tractor that he wanted to promote. So he brought him here at the time.

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>> How did he know your dad? >> Well, through his engineering and through Rumley Tractor Company, I really don't know how they met. But by word of mouth, I guess you'd say back then.

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>> Okay. >> So. >> So when they moved here, did they live in the town? >> They lived in the town.

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It was sand, sand, sand. There was no pavement, no nothing at the time. We lived on Main Street, and it's hilly as you know from there. And they had a home at 603 North Main.

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>> Can you recall, what did that home look like to you? >> It had one room. We were, at that time, one room is all you had, you know? And a kitchen, of course, and a bath.

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Then it's been added to a number of times, but- >> At that time, did you have running water and electricity? >> Yes, yes. We were, because I call him Uncle Charlie because he was so good to the kids.

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He gave me a horse and he was always doing something. He started a home for children here. It's not an orphanage, it's a home. He adopted the children from families that were, parents were killed or something.

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And if they had any money, he invested it. They never paid for anything. So I was always kind of, well, those kids can have everything, you know? [LAUGH] But Uncle Charlie was so good to the children, to us.

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>> Right. Did everybody call him Uncle Charlie or just you? >> No, no, I just, we did because, say, that's the way we felt about him. He had a dog called Jim.

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That dog sat in his office with him. If a person, of course people are always trying to get money, you know? A person came in and the dog growled. Uncle Charlie says, just leave, there's no point.

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The dog took over. And he was usually right. So he was a wonderful man. He died way too early.

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But he's made the town. He left a will that has never been able to be broken. Many have tried. >> Is the occupation of the town now still mainly tractors?

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>> No, it's the Sand Springs home interest. They had real estate and they owned oil wells and the railroads and all. And as I understand, while I was away in Houston, the government made them sell a couple things, so they still, and

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they still have the home, they have a widow's colony, they call it. And a widow with two children can live there free. >> Wow. >> Yeah.

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>> Do you recall your grandparents? Tell me about them. >> Yes, both of them. My mother's father and mother moved here and

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lived with us until they got settled, they moved to Tulsa into a home. And my father's parents lived in Omaha, and we used to go up and visit them all the time. They lived to be quite old.

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So I have 89, 92, 94, so maybe I'll live longer. >> Right, as a young child, what did you do for summer vacations? >> We had a lake out here, and we just spent all of our time on that lake. At that time, it had a bath house, and we just spent all summer at the lake.

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He had a park, now it's all built up, but it was a park, and he even had a little zoo. >> Your grandparents that lived in Tulsa, were you able to visit with them a lot? >> Yes, we were with, every couple days we'd go by, because they were elderly at the time.

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>> Tell me, when you were growing up, what was a Christmas like in your home? >> It was frightening. [LAUGH] I can remember one Christmas, my grandmother, Brian, weighed about 250 pounds, a large woman.

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And there was a man in town who used to dress up as Santa Claus, and the parents gave him the toys, and he'd come around and bring them to us. Well, he came in and I was petrified. I pushed that woman into the bathroom.

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I was three years old, I was so frightened. I'll never, I can remember it because I was petrified. But they were wonderful, because you had all the relatives, usually someone who's here.

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>> And would your grandparents come to your home for Christmas? >> Yes, they usually did. Now, we went to Omaha to them because they weren't able to drive. We used to drive up there.

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>> Do you recall Christmas trees in your home? >> Yes, always, yes. Homemade decorations, we'd make the chains and all. >> Okay.

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>> Way back, way, way back. >> And did you celebrate Christmas Santa Claus on Christmas Eve or Christmas morning? >> Christmas Eve, Christmas Eve.

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And then we went to Midnight Mass. >> Okay. >> Mm-hm. >> And then what would a typical Christmas dinner be at your house?

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>> Well, usually chicken or we didn't have too many turkeys back then. I don't know why, but usually we had roast chicken, all the trimmings. Cuz grandmother cooked quite a bit of sweets and mother was a good cook. >> Okay, would your grandmother cook them at home and bring them to your house or?

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>> Some of them, yes. >> Okay, when you were a young child, do you recall some of the games you played? >> Well, I'm trying to think, I don't remember any of them really.

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We had a horse in the backyard and looking at the town now, at that time, of course, it wasn't grown up. So we were able to keep the horse back there. And we had a grape arbor, so we did a lot of games in the arbor.

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Mother made grape jelly. >> Were you great riding that horse? >> Not super. I enjoyed it, but not that much.

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>> Just did it for fun? >> Just because the boys were older. Lawson was older than his friends, and so they would be the ones. I liked it, but I wasn't that crazy about it.

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>> Where did you start school? >> In Sand Springs at the Catholic Church, they had school. >> Tell me about that school. What was the building like?

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>> It was in the basement of the church, which is a rock, which is still a church here in town. And we had sisters. That time the nuns were around and they taught.

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>> Did you wear uniforms? >> No, we didn't have uniforms. >> Were your two brothers in that same school? >> One brother, one brother, yes.

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He was in it, and then, let's see, my next sister was in it a year or two. And then, of course, like most of them, the sisters were no longer available, so the school was closed. And we went to Sand Springs schools.

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>> In your first grade, for example, did you have a class of first graders, or did you have others in that class? >> No, we had all the classes. We went through, we were maybe several in the same room, of course, but.

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>> Do you recall any of that class that you were particularly interested in, any subject? >> I always liked math, and that has remained one of my main things from then on.

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>> Okay. >> And so I was kind of the mama in all of them of the kids, and I was always the big one, so. >> There you are.

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Okay, tell me your favorite subject when you were in elementary school. >> Well, math still was the best. I took history and all, but I didn't really, I didn't understand how it should be.

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I got by in history because my uncle went with the teacher. [LAUGH] >> Did you live close enough to walk to school? >> Yes, yes.

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That was the only transportation back then in this town. >> Do you recall your family's automobile when you were growing up? What did they drive? >> Ford. >> Ford.

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>> Ford touring car, and I learned on the old Model T. Yeah. >> When you were in elementary school, what were your dreams? >> I don't know that I really had anything special.

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I really hadn't thought yet about flying at all. It was on up when I was working that I started that. >> What teacher in elementary school did you admire and why? >> Well, in elementary that means up to the eighth grade.

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That would have been one of the nuns, and I don't recall their name, but they were all very good, they were very good people. >> Was it your math teacher that you were most impressed with? >> Well, I think so because I liked it the most and

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apparently made good grades in it. >> During your elementary school, then in the summertime, did you ever go on trips? >> No, not back then.

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>> Went to the lake? >> We had the lake just right outside the door here almost, and we were out there every day. >> What's the name of that lake?

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>> It was Sand Springs Lake. And we sometimes, then as I went on up, we had a called Lost City across the river in caves over there. And all of the bad guys that are in Oklahoma, they all were in there.

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So we often would go over there on a Saturday and explore the caves. >> When you were in elementary, were your parents involved in your school in some way? What did your, for example, your mother?

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>> Yes, she was very much interested in it, from what she could. As I say, she had heart trouble and wasn't able to be very active, but she was vocal. She was very, very active in all of the church at the time.

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>> I wanted to ask you what were some of the things she did in helping the church? >> Well, she would organize the dinners, which she was very good at. And she knew the women in town that were not Catholics that would help, would donate, and she was a very good organizer.

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She didn't do a lot of the work, but she organized it and delegated it. They were always successful. >> Was your dad ever involved in any of the political aspects of the city? >> Yes, a couple times they talked him into running for

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mayor, but he didn't make it cuz we were Catholics at that time. >> Why do you think that made a difference? And why do you think that made a difference? >> Prejudice back then in religion was so

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much more so than now. In a small town, but it was all right cuz they really didn't want him there. [LAUGH] >> Was your town integrated at that time? >> Not as such.

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We had a colored section which was south of town. And we had a superintendent of the colored schools who understood, and he kept everything in line. He was wonderful.

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We did not at that time have anybody up here at all. >> When you finished elementary, finished eighth grade, was there a graduation? >> Yes, I don't recall much, but a little bit. >> What kind of student were you through the eighth grade?

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>> I guess I was pretty good cuz I seemed like I remember an A average. [LAUGH] Whether I really was that good or just- >> Then when you went on to high school, did you change school buildings?

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>> Yes, we went to the Sand Springs High School, which now is another fourth grade or something like that. >> And in high school, what size classes then did you have? >> There were probably 30 or so in each class.

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And we were at the time, we changed rooms and all the time. And I played basketball, then as the activity started out. Played four years of it, two years as captain. >> Did your basketball team compete with other schools?

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>> Yes, we had a league at that time. The four years I was in school, we had a league in Oklahoma and played the next, before that they didn't have one and after that they disbanded it, so I was lucky there.

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>> Tell me about the basketball court itself when you were playing basketball. How was it different than from today? >> Well, I really don't understand there today, the looks of it, it's pretty much the same, but

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you're never as far, shooting from far like they are nowadays. It looks on it as to say I don't quite understand nowadays what they're doing. I just watch them, I watch golf instead.

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[LAUGH] >> What were your uniforms like when you were playing basketball? >> Well, we had short sleeved shirts and short shorts. [LAUGH]

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And basketball shoes with our number, number 10. That was always my number and that's a lucky number from then on. >> And did the founding fathers approve of those short shorts? >> Yes, yes.

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Mm-hm, yes. It was just standard back then. Looking at them now, they hang around their knees, I think it'd be very cumbersome. >> Right.

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>> But- >> Do you recall your parents attending some of your games? >> Always there, mm-hm. >> Were your brother and your sister, were they athletic also?

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>> My brother was, he played football, but my sisters weren't. Neither one of them were, neither one of them. >> Were there other things in high school that you were involved in, for example, debate or speech or?

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>> No, I was in the sewing classes, but I wasn't a good debater. I didn't really care for that, I didn't do any of that. >> Okay. What was your favorite subject in high school?

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>> Well, there again, I went into math. My least favorite was Latin. [LAUGH] >> And when you were in high school, what were your goals?

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>> Just to graduate, I really hadn't, at that time I was sort of always helping with the siblings, so to speak. And I really hadn't thought much past it. I knew I had to work, but I really-

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>> What were your social activities like in high school? >> Not too much. There really wasn't very much. I was on the National Honor Society.

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And we didn't have a lot back in those days. We really didn't, that I recall anyway. >> Do you recall your brother being protective of you as far as boyfriends? >> No, not necessarily.

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He was my very first little boyfriend, I should say. It was back when they built cars from a chassis and a seat, you know? And he and Borden built a car. And of course, Borden took it across the river one night and

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ran into a bridge and killed himself, so yeah. But lost and then went, he didn't do too much then. He went on, he played golf a little bit. And then he was going on to OU, to school.

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>> And what were your plans? >> I didn't have any, I knew I had to go to work. And so I found a job with the osteopath. >> Okay.

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>> And it was $35 a month and a gallon of milk a day. I carried a gallon of milk in a tin pail home every noon, right up Main Street. [LAUGH] >> And where did an osteopath get the milk?

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>> Goat. >> A goat. >> She had some goats in the yard right down in town now. And it was a lifesaver because at the time,

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Daddy had been in and out of the Ford business. >> Okay, and what did he do in the Ford business? >> He owned the Ford agency here. >> Let me go back to high school and ask you about your high school prom.

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Did you have a prom? >> I don't even remember it. I don't. >> Well then, about your high school graduation, recall for me.

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>> Well, we didn't do too much because times were so hard back then that we really didn't do much. I remember, I really don't remember. >> Did you have caps and gowns?

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>> Yes, I think we did on that. >> And what was your standing in the class? Do you recall? >> Well, no.

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As I say, I belonged to the National Honor Society, and that was what, the top something or other, and that was it. And then as I say, I was captain of the basketball team, and that was really about it.

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>> And in high school, who were your role models? >> Well, a couple of the teachers, really. One of them particularly was going with my uncle, and I thought, she was pretty smart.

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But other than that, I really, I don't remember any of them. My basketball coach, she was a cute little snippy thing. [LAUGH] She was darling, and I always admired her because nothing could faze her.

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She went on to marry the dentist in town. She's dead now. >> When you graduated from high school, then, did you live at home when you were working for the osteopath?

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>> Yes, because it was just a couple blocks. I stayed home. >> Then, during the time you worked at the osteopath, what were your social activities like?

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>> I had very little because, as I say, mother wasn't well. And I brought, of course, I was supporting the family on 35 a month. Back then, of course, cuz daddy was in between trying to reorganize and so forth. >> And then you worked for him or her a month, I mean a year?

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>> No, about a year. And then I went to work for Kerr Glass, which made Kerr fruit jars. And they had here in town, in the, well, I went in where everybody goes in to start, stuffing onvils.

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[LAUGH] And then went on into the bookkeeping department. And I stayed there several years, and I saw that there was a dead end street. Cuz I saw people that were ahead of me were going to be there forever. So I quit and took a computer class.

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Learned the old time computers, then went to work for Stanley Oil and Gas. >> Okay, and your computer classes were in Sand Springs? >> No, they were in Tulsa. >> In Tulsa.

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How did you get from Sand Springs to Tulsa? >> I had a car. We had a trolley at the time, it cost you a nickel to go to Tulsa. >> Okay, and how far is Tulsa from Sand Springs?

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>> Well, technically, it's about six miles in between the city limits. >> And once you went to work for Kerr, did you still live at home and- >> Yes. >> Go back and forth?

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>> And I lived at home when I worked in Tulsa, too. Yes, because I was sort of taking care of the kids as well as bringing home a paycheck at that time. >> During your time in high school and while you were working,

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were you involved in the church? >> Yes, to an extent. We didn't have too much activities then. But we had a priest that was darling.

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We just loved him to death. His mother lived with him and we loved her. >> And you worked at Kerr for how many years? >> Well, I'd say it was three or four.

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I've forgotten how many. I didn't think to get all this together. Three or four years and then I went to Stanlin. I was with them then when the WASP came along.

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>> What is your first recollection of being interested in airplanes? >> We lived 603 Main Street, which is just a ways up from downtown. My bedroom at night at 10 o'clock, American Airlines had a flight from Tulsa to Oklahoma City, and with the DC-3, it was low and slow.

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And I'd hear that going over every night. And I thought, oh, wonder. Wouldn't that be wonderful to be able to do something like that? So I expressed that opinion to my dad one day.

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So he said, well, let's go find out. So we went the rounds of Tulsa and the airports. We got out to Harvey Young, and the fellow that was manager and daddy started talking. They used to play football against each other in college, so that was the only place.

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That was Harvey Young Airport. So he said, well, I've never been up. I know nothing about it. He said, well, wait a minute.

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My chief pilot will be in a little bit. They had a CPT program there as well as private. He said, I'll have him take you up. Jack McElroy was his name.

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He came in. No, he said, I won't teach a woman to fly. The manager said, you don't have a job, because he and daddy had become buddies. So Jack said, well, all right, come on, I'll take her up.

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So he went up, came back. I'll teach her to fly, and he was the biggest booster of women in aviation from then on. Why, just one of those things to begin with. So he taught me from then on, and begged and borrowed and

00:29:06.760 - 00:29:21.120

stole time, because it was expensive. And $8 an hour, I wouldn't drink Coke. I'd save that nickel. >> How old were you when you took that first flight?

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>> I was in my 20s. You see, I'm 87, so I'm one of the older girls. I'm one of the older ones. I was old and took me a year, I guess, about a year to get the time.

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And by then, then the WASP had started coming. Mrs. She, she, you remember her? She came to Tulsa and interviewed. >> Let me ask you, when you were learning to fly, were you ever afraid?

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>> No, because Jack was such a wonderful instructor. He just instilled everything right. And I just, I don't know, I just took to it for some reason. I was petrified that I'd not be able to do this or do that.

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I was all through with the WASP. But it was just so exhilarating that I just kept- >> Did you know any other girls who were flying when you took that first flight? >> Mm-mm, didn't know there were any women anywhere.

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[LAUGH] But it hadn't been for my daddy saying, let's go find out. I probably never would have. >> Did your mother ever come out and watch you fly? >> Yes.

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>> What was her reaction? >> It's my daughter. >> Were you ever able to take them up? >> Yes.

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I took them up in the cub and then when I was at Hondo, I was able to have a flight on a weekend because Tulsa was 505 miles from Hondo. And for 500 miles you could get a mission. So I'd get a day night mission and I quickly found students,

00:31:17.320 - 00:31:34.960

crew chief, instructors that lived here. So I was able to get an airplane and come up on the weekend. We'd come up Saturday, go back Sunday. Well, one day, this is when Tulsa,

00:31:34.960 - 00:31:50.600

you were right at the airplanes then. Now it's grown so that you're running when you're. Mother and daddy, I was out pre-flighting the airplane. It was a twin engine, the twin beach.

00:31:50.600 - 00:32:09.960

And mother and daddy were at the fence. And some woman next to daddy says, my son is crew chief on that ship. Mother caught him but not in time. [LAUGH] Of course he said, well, my daughter is the pilot.

00:32:09.960 - 00:32:22.600

So that repaid everything. Yeah, he was a big booster. And they came down to my graduation. That was during gas rationing.

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The town, all people all over town chipped in stamps so they'd have enough gasoline to come down. >> That's great. >> Yeah, it was great, really.

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>> Do you recall where you were and how you heard about Pearl Harbor? >> I was in Los Angeles at the airport when I heard about it. And it's still a sort of a vague, it just didn't really register to me yet. It wasn't until later that it really did.

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I think we all had other things on our minds or something. >> What were you doing in Los Angeles? >> I had the flight school. >> Okay, that was after the war,

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after you got out of the WASP when you had that flight school? >> Yeah. >> Okay. I'm talking about Pearl Harbor in 1941. >> No, I was still at Stanlin.

00:33:24.040 - 00:33:42.240

And I don't know, I look back and I think, did I just sort of think, well, something's happened? It wasn't that impressive to me at the time. Because we didn't have anybody that we knew in service, and

00:33:42.240 - 00:33:55.640

I think that was the difference. >> How did it affect the people in Sand Springs, other than the rationing of the gas? >> Well, there were several of the boys, of course, were called in.

00:33:55.640 - 00:34:17.440

But I was the only girl around that went into service, all the rest of them. >> But as far as America, how do you feel Pearl Harbor changed the heart of America? >> I think it's definitely, to me, I couldn't imagine it happening or

00:34:17.440 - 00:34:36.840

having let it happen the same way I do on September the 11th. I can't imagine our big boys not understanding, not doing something to prevent all this. I just couldn't believe that they could come into Pearl Harbor and

00:34:36.840 - 00:34:52.760

do the damage they did. >> Did it change the industry in Sand Springs, the war? >> I think so. It changed every town, small or large or what.

00:34:52.760 - 00:35:14.560

And we had the Sinclair Refinery here at the time, so that was, and Curve Glass and all these people. >> When you were learning to fly, was that before the WASPs were even heard of?

00:35:14.560 - 00:35:34.880

>> Evidently, I was not aware of it until I was flying and then I became aware of it, because I think Jack, this instructor, was also a disc jockey at one of the stations at night. And he in turn,

00:35:34.880 - 00:35:59.200

well, kind of kept us up on it, so to speak, but he was a very jovial person too, so he sloughed off. >> Yeah, do you recall when you heard there was a program for women to learn to fly to help the military, how you felt about that?

00:35:59.200 - 00:36:19.120

>> He was immediately, yes, come on now, we gotta get you more time so you'll be ready to go. He just kept right after me, and so he got me ready to take my Britain and all. >> When you were flying out of Tulsa, was there a CAP program?

00:36:19.120 - 00:36:24.560

>> Yes. >> The Civil Air Patrol. >> No. >> Did you belong to that? >> No, no. >> Was Jack involved?

00:36:24.560 - 00:36:40.320

>> No, he was at the CPT. He was the chief pilot on this airport. And it was out of Tulsa University, I think, at the time, but I didn't get to go to college.

00:36:40.320 - 00:36:52.400

I went to work immediately. >> But your brother went on to college. >> Yes, he went on to Oklahoma University. >> Was that pretty much standard during that time period,

00:36:52.400 - 00:37:06.760

that the girls stayed home and the boys went on to college? >> Yes, it wasn't even, I just never even thought about it. I remember sending him money every month out of my little paycheck to help. [LAUGH] And it was just accepted.

00:37:06.760 - 00:37:25.200

>> When you heard about the WASP program, and you told your mom and dad, what were their reactions? >> Good, good, all for me, yeah. They were big boosters of it, very big boosters.

00:37:25.200 - 00:37:39.280

Mother, of course, never flown. Daddy had had a trip to Arizona at one time in a private plane. I've forgotten why. >> And how did your brother and sister feel?

00:37:39.280 - 00:37:55.000

>> They didn't have much to say. My next sister, Edith, was for me, but my other sister, see, she's 15 years younger, so she was- >> Didn't fall.

00:37:55.000 - 00:38:08.040

>> I raised her, so to speak. Yeah. >> When you heard about the program, then how did you get in touch with them to apply for training?

00:38:08.040 - 00:38:28.040

>> Well, I saw the notice, I think it was in the paper one day, and so I did. I called or wrote to them, and they made an appointment then to interview me and talk to her. >> And when the sheehy came to Tulsa, was it just for you or were there other girls?

00:38:28.040 - 00:38:48.520

>> Well, I think there were several that she was going to interview at the time. I don't remember that any of them that went in, I don't know. >> And where did the interview take place? >> I think she was at the hotel, and I went down to the hotel, I remember.

00:38:48.520 - 00:39:04.600

>> Do you recall getting ready for that, and what you wore, and how you felt? >> No, I don't, I really don't, because I think I had to take time off work to do it, so I was working. And during all that,

00:39:04.600 - 00:39:20.680

I was so petrified that I wouldn't be accepted. Then when we had to have the physical, Gersparton School of Aviation was in Tulsa, and that's where they sent me for my physical.

00:39:22.400 - 00:39:38.680

And of course, my blood pressure and everything went sky high, naturally. [LAUGH] But I was fortunate, and I had a little Italian doctor, he said, there's nothing wrong, he says, you just want to get in too bad. And he made me go in and lay down.

00:39:38.680 - 00:39:55.640

He came in, started talking to me, and had his hand like this, everything, he says, it's fine, you're in. [LAUGH] >> And then how long was it before you were notified that you had been accepted?

00:39:55.640 - 00:40:12.600

>> Well, I was supposed to go, they had accepted me in June, and then I got a telegram at work one day, can you come in May? So I said, sure. >> Did you have any problem with the company that you were working for to resign?

00:40:12.600 - 00:40:30.520

>> No, they were wonderful. They understood, they didn't have any other girls that were going, but yes. And they kept my job for me even open, but I'd been outside for so long. I couldn't go back in.

00:40:30.520 - 00:40:45.240

>> And your mom and dad, then when you told them they were- >> Yes, right behind me. >> Terrific, and what made you think that you would be able to do that? That no other girls had- >> I don't

00:40:45.240 - 00:40:59.600

know, I don't know where I got the idea. I just knew that I had enjoyed the flying, and of course, Jack and all the people out at the airport were back of me. There were a number of businessmen in Tulsa that had airplanes out there, and

00:40:59.600 - 00:41:20.040

they were all instrumental in boosting my, and I thought, well. I had no idea, of course, the intensity of our training or what it would be. But Jack kept telling the other instructors, you're a natural, you're all right, you're a natural, so.

00:41:20.040 - 00:41:27.240

[LAUGH] >> So you proved it. >> Yep. >> Okay, we gotta change the tape. >> Okay. >> Put in a new tape.

00:41:27.240 - 00:41:34.320

>> You're a natural. >> You're a natural, you're doing great. You're doing- >> Talking too much. >> No, no, no, no.

00:41:34.320 - 00:41:40.960

>> There's no such thing. >> No, it's your life, no. >> Well. >> No, this is great. You wanna stand up and stretch?

00:41:40.960 - 00:41:50.520

>> No, I'm fine. >> Okay, fine. >> Mm-hm. >> Trips, because at that time, California wasn't as built up, and

00:41:50.520 - 00:42:02.560

there were many little places that had strips. And they gave them, and I used to fly them out to their honeymoon. I've been on more honeymoons than anybody. >> Yeah. >> [LAUGH]

00:42:02.560 - 00:42:16.120

>> It was a radio show. >> Yes, it's a bride and groom show, they called it, if you remember. >> Okay, let me take you back to when you were flying. What was the first airplane that you flew?

00:42:16.120 - 00:42:19.600

>> Cub. >> When you soloed? >> Cub. >> Cub, oh yeah. >> Tell me about that solo.

00:42:19.600 - 00:42:36.760

>> Well, my instructor weighed 250 pounds. And he warned me that when I took off, it might be a little different than when he had been in there. But when I took off and went straight up without his weight in there,

00:42:36.760 - 00:42:48.760

I saw what he meant. But it was around and down, it's great. >> On that first solo, did you just go around once? >> Yes. >> And landed?

00:42:48.760 - 00:43:03.720

>> Well, I went around and then it was all right, so then he sent me around again, yeah. >> During that first year when you were getting your hours to go into the WASP, did anything unusual happen ever?

00:43:04.880 - 00:43:31.480

>> No, not really, other than the businessmen that had Taylor Crafts and etc., small airplane out there, told Jack one day, give her some time. So I got my time in by them being generous, which was nice. >> Were you ever able to work around the airport to earn-

00:43:31.480 - 00:43:47.320

>> No, I wasn't because I was working all the time and I'd go out after work or on the weekends and so forth. No, at that time, they really weren't, they didn't have any women working at the field.

00:43:47.320 - 00:44:06.960

Harvey Young Airport where I learned his mother was alive and she lived there. But she's about the only one that I ever knew that was around an airport. >> During all the time that year that you were flying, did any other girls learn to fly at that airport?

00:44:06.960 - 00:44:29.880

>> Yes, Marge Selfridge, who's now, went on to be a WASP, is now deceased. She came in and learned to fly, was learning after about the time I left. And that's really the only ones that I knew. We had, there was a woman instructor, Lemon was her name.

00:44:30.320 - 00:44:44.160

>> Do you know her background? >> No, I just really, I never had her. I never had anything to do with her other than I knew she was around there and I don't know what, where she came from or anything.

00:44:44.160 - 00:44:59.520

>> When you got your notification to report to Sweetwater, what were your expectations? What did you think you were gonna be doing and how was that gonna help the war effort?

00:44:59.520 - 00:45:16.920

>> Well, I really didn't know, but I felt that women were needed. We had not been used, and I felt that it was time that we were used and I was ready. And in whatever capacity, I didn't know what it would be.

00:45:16.920 - 00:45:33.800

>> What was your knowledge of Jacqueline Cochran at that time? Had you heard of her? >> I had heard of her, yes. I didn't know too much about her, but I began to learn more about her and

00:45:33.800 - 00:45:50.520

I think if it hadn't been for her, we wouldn't have been in Wasp. >> How did you get, when your mom and dad know that you're gonna leave home, you're gonna be gone for months, then how did they feel? >> They were all for it, fortunately.

00:45:50.520 - 00:46:04.120

I had the backing, they were all for it. >> Then how did you get from Sand Springs or from Tulsa to Sweetwater? >> When the trains were moving then, back then. >> Do you recall that train ride?

00:46:04.120 - 00:46:20.160

>> Mm-hm, I think, how did I get down there? [LAUGH] Because I know they didn't drive because gas rationing was on. And I took the train then and went down. >> While you were on the train, did you meet other young girls who were-

00:46:20.160 - 00:46:36.840

>> No, not on that one, I didn't. >> Okay, when you got to Sweetwater, tell me what happened. >> Well, what did happen? I think everybody went to Blue Bonnet Hotel to begin with.

00:46:36.840 - 00:46:55.720

And then I didn't stay there, I went right on to the field and reported. And- >> Can you tell me how you felt when you got to that field and saw all those airplanes? >> I just, my mouth was open.

00:46:55.720 - 00:47:12.280

[LAUGH] I'm gonna fly those. I'll never be able to fly that big thing. And- >> Then what was your opinion of the base itself with the- >> Well, it was pretty crummy,

00:47:12.280 - 00:47:32.160

because we had barracks that, well, six of us in the bay, as you know. And we had, shortly after I came there, we had a hurricane go through. That took all of, there were still private airplanes on the field, and

00:47:32.160 - 00:47:45.360

it took one corner of the whole bit of them. So, well, that's quite an initiation in Texas. >> Was it a hurricane or a tornado? >> Tornado, I'm sorry.

00:47:45.360 - 00:47:56.120

I'm sorry, not a hurricane. But Texas, tornado through there. >> Right. >> Often look back, and I guess I was so

00:47:56.120 - 00:48:08.760

stunned that I really don't remember too much of it. >> But you'll remember the barracks and- >> Yes. >> And if you'll forget that I know what they- >> We were, of course, we were still fairly new,

00:48:08.760 - 00:48:27.440

because some of the girls had been at Ellington, and we were some of the first ones there, but this came through one night and just ripped up the beautiful airplanes out in the corner of the field that had all been moved, the private ones, over to a corner, and it just took them.

00:48:27.440 - 00:48:40.040

We were lucky in that it didn't hurt anybody or any of us. >> Did you have warning it was coming? >> No. >> What month did you arrive at Sweetwater?

00:48:40.040 - 00:48:54.400

>> I went in May. >> And the weather typically while you were there? >> Hot. Windy and hot, and just typical Texas weather.

00:48:54.400 - 00:49:08.280

We had our thunderstorms, of course, not bad, but sometimes we could fly and sometimes we didn't. >> You mentioned your barracks and a bay. Could you describe that bay?

00:49:08.280 - 00:49:31.880

>> We had six of us lived in one little room, one bathroom. And I soon learned that if I didn't put on a nightgown, I just had on my pants and bra, I could have five more minutes sleep in the morning. [LAUGH]

00:49:31.880 - 00:49:49.080

Cuz you just had a little locker that all you could put in there was one change, but we didn't need them. We had our zoot suits, of course, as everybody knows that we're only 48s for 12 sizes and all.

00:49:49.080 - 00:50:10.200

But they wrapped around, we flew in them. >> How were your bay mates chosen? >> They were alphabetical in the, cuz we were all Bs and Cs. >> Can you tell me overall what the girls were like?

00:50:10.200 - 00:50:22.520

>> They were all very compatible in there. I really, some of them are still alive. Clayton's gone. Doris Lefevre, who was one of the bay mates,

00:50:22.520 - 00:50:37.440

we learned after talking with her that my brother worked for her father. He was controller of GE. [LAUGH] It's odd how things like this. And Doris stayed, she resigned, and I think went home.

00:50:37.440 - 00:50:56.400

But the rest of them, we were all very compatible. I just didn't, well, I really, they had their own things and I just had mine. I had trouble with school.

00:50:56.400 - 00:51:09.480

>> Tell me about grad school. >> Engines, I had more headaches. I just couldn't get it through my head what they were trying to say, and Morse code.

00:51:09.480 - 00:51:25.760

Heaven help me if I ever had to read it. [LAUGH] I don't know why it was this, but I made it. >> Tell me what a typical day was like. >> Well, Carmody would blow her horn to begin with.

00:51:25.760 - 00:51:39.280

[LAUGH] Nail Carmody. And everybody was up. Then we'd go eat scrambled eggs, and then go to the flight line to fly or to school.

00:51:39.280 - 00:51:55.320

We had one or the other. And that was, we'd report, I think, to school by eight. And then if we went to school in the morning, we'd fly in the afternoon. And then back at night, study, study.

00:51:55.320 - 00:52:08.600

Cuz I, it was, I didn't say so much of it. What is this for? [LAUGH] >> What was the first training plane that you flew at Sweetwater?

00:52:08.600 - 00:52:25.400

>> The PT-19, Fairchild. >> Do you recall your instructor? >> Yes, he was a Texas cowboy, is what he really was. And by then he had had several girls, so he was all for us.

00:52:25.400 - 00:52:44.920

And he was, really was a big help from then on, he really was. >> Do you recall, you were so low in that 19? >> Sure, out on the auxiliary field. And I don't know whether I can do this or not,

00:52:44.920 - 00:52:57.360

but air went up and around and it was okay. >> Did any of your bay mates wash out? >> Yes. >> How'd that make you feel?

00:52:57.360 - 00:53:13.360

>> I was petrified. I wrote, Mother, I'll be home tomorrow cuz I'm having a check right in the morning. [LAUGH] But it seemed like almost every girl in the bay had to go up for a check for a washout.

00:53:13.360 - 00:53:35.720

And I got to where I just, it was my turn, but never came, thank goodness. But that was so sad to have them leave. And some of them I knew had been pilots, had their license, and were better. I knew they could fly, but I think personalities got into it.

00:53:35.720 - 00:53:55.360

And then I think also they had some, coming down from the upper echelon, we only need so many, cuz I had 151 in my class and only 59 graduated. And I know some of those girls were better pilots than I had been flying longer. Some of them were instructors.

00:53:55.360 - 00:54:17.880

But that was the program and that's the way the service handles things. >> What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make when you went there to live for those months? >> I think being in a room with this many in the bathroom.

00:54:17.880 - 00:54:35.040

[LAUGH] Cuz we all adjusted, we all got our time in the shower and the bath and all. But one thing, I didn't smoke, I never have, but one of the girls was a chain smoker, so we moved her over by a window.

00:54:35.040 - 00:54:54.240

[LAUGH] And at least relieved some of it at that time. >> What were some of the other courses that you took other than engines and Morse code? >> Well, we had navigation, of course, and weather.

00:54:58.800 - 00:55:16.680

>> Was there one course that you really enjoyed? >> I like navigation. I always like to find out where the railroads were. [LAUGH] >> As you were in primary training,

00:55:16.680 - 00:55:33.200

what did you have time off on, weekends or what was your schedule like? >> Yes, we had usually the weekend and whether you were there or you weren't there at the time. Sweetwater was not happy with women pilots.

00:55:34.840 - 00:56:01.520

The first weekend in town, they were just horrible, merchants and everybody. So the army, whether you knew this or not, paid us the next time in $2 bills. We went to town a weekend and the red carpet flowed because they were able to see how much we spent, the $2 bills.

00:56:02.760 - 00:56:23.720

That was a brainstorm, that's hard to realize they did. But from then on, we just do what we. >> Do you recall any social activities that you had when you were in training? >> Well, yes, there was a banker there that had a home out on the lake,

00:56:23.720 - 00:56:45.640

on Lake Sweetwater, and he used to invite us out for lunch. And other than that, I really didn't socialize much. I was with a couple of girls, Mary Coon, she's dead now too, Mary Williams.

00:56:45.640 - 00:57:11.160

We went to town and then Doris Lefevre, we'd go in groups. >> And how would you get back and forth to the base? >> Well, the big old trucks they had went into town with us. We had certain schedules that they would pick us up and bring us back.

00:57:11.160 - 00:57:31.120

I didn't do too much cuz I wasn't, some of the girls did a lot of socializing, but I didn't do very much, I had to study, I just had to study. [LAUGH] >> Do you recall when you went into training and took the military oath,

00:57:31.120 - 00:57:49.960

what your expectations were as far as militarization after you graduated? >> Well, I had hoped, I think at the time, I expected to be in the military from then on, I really did. I didn't think that we'd ever be other than military, so I was ready for it.

00:57:49.960 - 00:58:11.960

>> While you were at Sweetwater, did Miss Cochran ever come to visit? >> Yes, I met her several times and I just really thought she was, without her we wouldn't have been anything. She was a little, well, they called her pushy, but that's not,

00:58:11.960 - 00:58:32.200

she was very assertive cuz she knew what she wanted and she had the ability. At that time, she was married to Odlam and she had the money back over. >> Okay, when you finished primary training, did you have some time off between that and basic?

00:58:32.200 - 00:58:54.280

>> Yes, I think they gave us a week in there, if I remember right. I came home and on the train again and then back. >> At that point, did you have uniforms to wear when you were off base? >> No, not yet.

00:58:54.280 - 00:59:14.480

It was on, I think we were in advance before we ever got the white shirts and the khaki pants. >> While you were in training, do you recall any of the rules that you had that if you didn't follow, you might wash out?

00:59:14.480 - 00:59:32.120

>> I remember some of the girls disobeying the rules, so to speak, but I was too petrified. I was just so frightened all the time that I wouldn't make it, that I just didn't do anything.

00:59:32.120 - 00:59:53.640

>> Tell me about Saturday morning inspections. >> Well, we had a lot of fun with it and it was also, it was bad. [LAUGH] You'd hide things up on top of the lockers and then you'd hide in them, some of them.

00:59:53.640 - 01:00:11.600

There was always somebody in the bay that wanted to pull something. But the PT instructor, whether LaRue was there as a PT instructor. Well, he and my brother were in college together.

01:00:11.720 - 01:00:31.440

And he delighted in doing anything. One time, our class, there were several rebellious people which got by with Ellie, this one Ellie in particular, we went out to PT and it was one of those horrendous 115 days.

01:00:31.440 - 01:00:46.920

She put a towel around her head, turban like. We went out and all lined up. And he did one exercise, dismissed, returned with turbans on every head.

01:00:46.920 - 01:01:01.720

[LAUGH] He got even. >> And what were those turbans like? >> Well, it was just a towel wrapped around your head, any way that you could hold it on there, cuz it was so hot.

01:01:01.720 - 01:01:22.000

And PT, we did have some good PT. I don't know whether you did or not, but he was pretty good about it. >> When you were flying in the PT-19 open cockpit, what did you do about your hair? >> I had long hair and it was in a braid down my back at the time.

01:01:22.000 - 01:01:35.840

I just braided it. >> When you finished the PT-19, then what phase did you go into? >> The BT-13. >> And what was the purpose of flying the BT-13?

01:01:35.840 - 01:01:52.520

>> Well, it was a larger airplane and we also were going to get instruments in it. Some instrument training in the BT. >> What were your thoughts about instrument training as you look back? >> I didn't think I could ever do it.

01:01:52.520 - 01:02:13.400

I didn't think that little old needle ball air speed just wouldn't stay still. [LAUGH] But speaking of that, when I was sent back up to Bryan Instruments School, Bryan, Texas, I was flying instruments one day.

01:02:13.400 - 01:02:26.560

And my instructor yelled at me, what have I done now? He said, come out from under the hood, quick, quick, quick. And I thought, what did I do? I thought I was pretty good.

01:02:26.560 - 01:02:50.040

And he said, look, and there was a rainbow, complete circle. There are no pot at the gold or at the end of it, because it was a complete circle. I had never seen one before, he had never seen one, I've never since. And I just don't know that I recall anybody that I have talked, but

01:02:50.040 - 01:03:03.200

we were just high enough, just enough that that was a complete circle. >> Was it right in front of you? >> Yes, we were flying right into it, that's why you could see it. >> Wow.

01:03:03.200 - 01:03:20.800

>> Really, yes. And we just went on back to the base. [LAUGH] It was really exciting, because I thought, I always wanted a pot of gold. [LAUGH]

01:03:20.800 - 01:03:37.680

>> What did you think about instruments? >> Well, I knew they were necessary, but I didn't think I ever wanted to really fly them, I don't know, I just didn't think of them as being secure or something.

01:03:37.680 - 01:03:45.000

I just thought, what if? What if I do this? What if I don't do that? But I knew they were there.

01:03:45.000 - 01:04:01.920

>> Do you recall soloing in that BT-13? >> Yes, of course, yes. It was, again, another great big airplane. [LAUGH] But it went off again just fine.

01:04:01.920 - 01:04:25.800

>> While you were in training, were any of the students injured or killed? >> No, not in my class now. Yes, there were several of them that were, I think, in a, one of the fatalities was the Twin Cessna,

01:04:25.800 - 01:04:51.040

where they burned up one night. But. >> When you finished instruments successfully, then what was the next step? >> Well, the BT and the instruments, then you went on to the AT-6.

01:04:51.040 - 01:05:06.840

The big airplane. >> Tell me about that AT-6. >> 650 horsepower, I never would have imagined, but it was a sweetheart. And I had an instructor who loved aerobatics.

01:05:06.840 - 01:05:21.600

We weren't allowed to do aerobatics. So we got up with the sun back of us in the airport. We were in between the airport and the sun. They couldn't find us.

01:05:21.600 - 01:05:34.280

They could hear us. You could never find us. And he taught me instruments, anything, everything. He was just, he just really knew them and he loved them.

01:05:34.280 - 01:05:46.400

And it was the sweetheart of an airplane. It still is. It's still out there. >> Describe one of your cross-country flights.

01:05:46.400 - 01:05:59.080

>> The dual or solo or any of them. >> Anyone that's interesting. Where did you go? >> Where did we go?

01:05:59.080 - 01:06:10.720

I don't remember. >> Okay. At that time, radar was not yet invented. >> So how did you navigate?

01:06:10.720 - 01:06:31.160

>> That iron horse, everybody, you always had a railroad somewhere in your itinerary that you knew that if you couldn't quite go the other way, you could always find your way with the railroad. But we went from point to point.

01:06:31.160 - 01:06:49.960

We had maps and we had flight plans and we had time and so forth. We had to be on schedule with land and check out and go on. >> You were in Texas in the middle of summer with no air conditioning. >> No.

01:06:49.960 - 01:07:04.840

>> How did you manage? >> I sweat a lot and I didn't perspire, I sweat. [LAUGH] I was very warm natured anyway. And we soon learned that you just don't put any clothes on as best.

01:07:04.840 - 01:07:19.120

And the zoot suits, they absorbed a lot. They were very, really, I didn't mind them at all. I thought they were great. >> Did you ever sleep outside, for example?

01:07:19.120 - 01:07:34.960

>> Yes. We did a number of times the nights, no wind, no breeze, no nothing. We would carry the cots out, sometimes carry the cots out, sometimes just the mattress and would sleep.

01:07:34.960 - 01:07:52.760

Cuz it was just unbearable in the bay. But that was all right, we got through. >> Tell me about the food, where did you eat? >> Well, I didn't mind the food, some of the girls did, but

01:07:52.760 - 01:08:10.280

we had a little cafeteria style food and they were always fussing about. The scrambled eggs were, what did they call them? I've forgotten now, but anyway, I didn't really mind the food. I was used to hard times.

01:08:10.280 - 01:08:32.800

In my growing up, we had hard times, so I was used to it. So it didn't seem to me that it was very difficult at all. Many of the girls fussed a lot, but I didn't. >> What was your favorite thing about going to fly training to school?

01:08:32.800 - 01:08:49.520

What did you enjoy the most? >> Flying. [LAUGH] Getting to fly, really. I don't know that I enjoyed, of course, ground school you had to have it, and

01:08:49.520 - 01:09:08.960

I didn't really want to go back to school and study, but it was part of it. And I just always enjoyed being out on the flight line, anything with it. >> Did you have any bad experiences? >> I'm very fortunate, no.

01:09:08.960 - 01:09:28.920

>> Okay. >> The only bad was I couldn't get an Army checkride when I was supposed to. You had to have them, and it was in the 86. And he kept putting me off, putting me off.

01:09:28.920 - 01:09:37.920

Well, you had to have it before you could do anything. So finally came my period. I don't know whether you want to put this in or not. [LAUGH]

01:09:37.920 - 01:09:49.080

>> You can go right ahead. >> But anyway, I told my instructor, I said, he's waited long enough. So he said, well, it's okay. He said, he told the flight.

01:09:49.080 - 01:10:07.240

So he said, they weren't supposed to, at that time, they didn't know what reaction would be, and we weren't supposed to do this or that. But he learned that I could do snap rolls, and I hated them. Cuz it just took my stomach and turned it all upside down.

01:10:07.240 - 01:10:22.960

So I spent the time teaching him snap rolls. Here I am in my delicate condition. [LAUGH] Those are some things you look back and think it's funny at the time, it wasn't.

01:10:22.960 - 01:10:32.360

But then anyway, I passed. >> Right. What's your most memorable experience from Sweetwater, from a venture? >> Graduating.

01:10:32.360 - 01:10:47.520

Just walking across, and my dad and mother were there, and he pinned my wings on me. So that was great. My sisters were with them. Brother had already gone back east.

01:10:47.520 - 01:11:00.520

>> Before you graduated, did you have a choice of assignments for after graduation? >> No, no. >> When did you get your assignment?

01:11:00.520 - 01:11:21.240

>> We got it before we left Sweetwater. I was assigned to Hondo Air Force Base, which is a navigation training school. >> And what was your reaction when you found out? >> So, I don't know what it was or what I'd be doing or anything.

01:11:21.240 - 01:11:35.200

Then I found out that they only had twin beaches, so that was great. [LAUGH] Cuz we'd had the twin in the UC-78 double breasted. >> Tell me about that particular training.

01:11:35.200 - 01:11:49.000

>> In the UC-78? >> Mm-hm. >> Well, it was a must. And again, we had instrument flying in it.

01:11:49.000 - 01:12:05.240

We always had one of the girls, an instructor, in it. We'd go out on instruments. And we'd go, what, to Abilene, wasn't it, I think? And then back, and I was coming back from Abilene.

01:12:05.240 - 01:12:19.440

And I got there. I said, hey, something's wrong. And he and the other girl were in the back seat. I was flying instruments alone.

01:12:19.440 - 01:12:25.800

But I'd hit the jet stream. He said, nothing's wrong. He says, you just hit the jet stream. And we got there just like that.

01:12:25.800 - 01:12:42.680

I thought, I can't be here already. So that's about all. Other than that, I didn't have any trouble with it. >> Did you, during that training on that aircraft,

01:12:42.680 - 01:12:59.200

was every time when it would just be two trainees and not an instructor? >> Once or twice we did. We didn't do too much, except when we'd have an instructor before we soloed it. And there was always two of us.

01:12:59.200 - 01:13:13.840

We'd change seats on that, if I remember. And I'd go to the auxiliary and solo. >> Describe the auxiliary field. >> It was a big old dusty Texas cow pasture.

01:13:13.840 - 01:13:22.880

[LAUGH] And it was adequate. >> What were the facilities there? Were there any?

01:13:22.880 - 01:13:33.040

>> What facility? [LAUGH] There weren't any. I don't remember whether they even had a portable potty or not.

01:13:33.040 - 01:13:41.560

I don't remember. We went over in the cattle truck, all of us. Some of the girls flew over. Of course, it depended on what you were scheduled.

01:13:41.560 - 01:13:59.280

>> Of the six girls who started out in your bay, how many of you graduated? >> We all did. Yes, we all did. Yeah, I really look back and I think how lucky we all were.

01:13:59.280 - 01:14:18.120

There were several that went for war shop, but they made it. >> Let's go back now to your graduation. What was your best uniform when you graduated? >> We had the beige trousers, white blouse, and the overseas cap as well.

01:14:18.120 - 01:14:38.720

>> Did you have some dignitaries that came to your graduation? >> Well, let's see, was Jackie there? I'm trying to remember who, was it Arnold or his, or Blunt, I don't remember which one was there.

01:14:38.720 - 01:14:53.440

>> Was your graduation outside? >> Yes, it was outside. >> Okay, and what would typically happen at a graduation? >> Well, they always had a band play, and

01:14:53.440 - 01:15:14.400

we would be marching in formation to the grandstand, they would be up in a grandstand, and then they would have their speeches. And then one by one, we went across the grandstand and received our wings.

01:15:14.400 - 01:15:27.320

>> Do you recall going across that stage and looking out and seeing your parents? >> Yes. Yes, because they were so anxious. And then when I got out, I gave my wings to my daddy to pin them on.

01:15:27.320 - 01:15:44.760

>> Good for you. >> Yeah, it was really a highlight for him. >> When you graduated, were you aware of what other WASPs were, their jobs, who had already graduated?

01:15:44.760 - 01:16:02.240

>> Well, I knew where they were and what they were doing, but not having been there yet, I really didn't know. >> Then did you have some time off after graduation? >> I think we just had a couple days.

01:16:02.240 - 01:16:18.560

I remember I drove back home with the folks, and then I went to Hondo. >> Then how did you get from Sand Springs to Hondo? >> Again, the trains were still going at that time. >> Was that a problem, riding the trains?

01:16:18.560 - 01:16:34.600

>> Well, you had- >> With a lot of troops? >> No, no, we didn't have any problem that way. Cuz we were going to bases where there really weren't too many, too much. We were the first ones on Hondo, of course, first girls.

01:16:34.600 - 01:16:51.840

>> When you arrived at Hondo, to whom did you report? >> We had a meeting, and at the time, I don't know, I think Miss Cochran or somebody appointed me CO of the girls. Why?

01:16:51.840 - 01:17:07.000

I guess I was old and mean. [LAUGH] But anyway, the CO of the field was Colonel Daney. He was a six foot nine Texan. He was a real Texan.

01:17:07.000 - 01:17:20.240

So we had a meeting with him, cuz he'd never had girls on the field before. He didn't have the pilots, didn't know. He says, I don't know either. So I asked him, I said, what are we to do if

01:17:20.240 - 01:17:35.320

we have trouble? He says, I don't know. I'll tell you what to do. If the civilians get after you, you tell them you're in the Air Force.

01:17:35.320 - 01:17:50.400

If the Air Force gets after you, you tell them you're a civilian. That was a typical answer. And we got along fine after that. We were welcomed, we had no problems.

01:17:50.400 - 01:18:03.800

I've heard of the girls saying they were just not liked and they were this and that. We didn't have any problem. >> How many of you were stationed there, went with you to Honda?

01:18:03.800 - 01:18:20.640

>> I think there were six and then there were several added. At one time there was 11 and then they were transferred and so forth. And then some of them quit. >> When the six of you got there and you went to operations,

01:18:20.640 - 01:18:37.200

what was your assignment to be? >> We were to report to the flight line the next morning. We were sent to the nurses home. We stayed there with them to begin with.

01:18:37.200 - 01:18:56.320

Then we came to the flight line and then they started some schooling and some instruction. >> Do you recall your instructor in checking you out in that AT-7? >> I had David Sederquist.

01:18:56.320 - 01:19:19.280

[LAUGH] He was a blonde and he was from back east. He was just a darling boy. He soon found that I listened well and he was in love. So he came over to the barracks and talked about Maryland all the time.

01:19:19.280 - 01:19:31.880

And he was very, very helpful. He said, women could fly? Sure. So we'd go on missions and he wouldn't fly, he made me fly.

01:19:31.880 - 01:19:48.240

>> Good. What would a typical mission, take me through a typical mission. >> Typical navigators training. They were having to learn how to get from point A to point B

01:19:48.240 - 01:20:11.400

by regular navigation in their instruments and they had some of the schools. We took their headings at all times and flew their heading until if we knew we were wrong or something, we'd ask them, are you sure, check it, and they'd recheck.

01:20:11.400 - 01:20:25.600

We'd get to our destinations, most of them were day, night, and then others were just day, day, out and back, a four hour flight. Usually to El Paso and back then. And then they had day, night missions, and

01:20:25.600 - 01:20:40.600

the night were celestial, where they navigated by the stars. We had to know where we were. And then we had over water missions. Way out, we went out over Rockport in Texas.

01:20:40.600 - 01:20:56.720

Out of sight of land. And yeah, you knew, boy, it was up to the pilot to know exactly, because they'd give you different headings to fly. And then we would give them something.

01:20:56.720 - 01:21:10.440

And then they were supposed to tell us exactly from where they were, how to get back to land. Nine times out of ten, the poor kids were so frustrated, they'd give us reciprocals right on out to sea.

01:21:10.440 - 01:21:22.360

So we had to know. But that was all right. They learned. >> Was there ever an incident in any of those flights that you recall?

01:21:22.360 - 01:21:31.800

>> No. I was very, very fortunate. Very fortunate. They were all, if they weren't exactly on course or something,

01:21:31.800 - 01:21:48.240

I would ask them to recheck or something. But they were all. >> On a typical mission, how many people were in that airplane, and who were they? >> Pilot, co-pilot, instructor, and five,

01:21:48.240 - 01:22:07.600

I see there were seats for five navigation students. So it was about ten, seven to nine. >> And then those students would rotate as far as navigation, navigating you? >> They would, yes.

01:22:07.600 - 01:22:25.000

The instructor would always be, he would always have some of them that he would designate which legs, so to speak, because we'd have legs going to and from, and different ones. He would in turn take over taking care of them.

01:22:25.000 - 01:22:41.200

>> Then while you were there, did you have other type missions that you might have flown? >> Yes, we used to have to go for parts over to San Marcos if they didn't have the part, and they did, we'd fly over there.

01:22:41.200 - 01:22:57.960

And then one time, I happened to walk by the office at the wrong time. [LAUGH] And Captain Duncan said, come here. I said, yes, sir.

01:22:57.960 - 01:23:12.840

They had two Mexican generals. They were going to learn to fly the C-60, which we had on the field. And whether you know, they're not very tall people. And they didn't know women pilots.

01:23:12.840 - 01:23:25.000

How do they fly? And they were, Captain Duncan was very fluent in Spanish. I knew nothing. He said, go get our airplane ready, we're gonna fly.

01:23:25.000 - 01:23:46.080

They wanted to know what a woman could do. Well, I just happened to have a perfect day to just grease it all. [LAUGH] And they said, one thing I understood was suave. But they didn't believe it, so they made me go around again.

01:23:46.480 - 01:24:01.520

And it still came back the same, so I felt real good about that. >> Okay, we've got to change. >> Yes, and they were two little old squatty ones, and I thought, I couldn't understand them.

01:24:01.520 - 01:24:14.000

Of course, Captain Duncan was very fluent. And he was for the girls, but he was rather strict. He was one of those that I wasn't just real sure about. [LAUGH] >> Okay,

01:24:14.000 - 01:24:29.120

what was the purpose of these two generals going up in that airplane? >> To see how women flew. [LAUGH] That's all it was. They wanted to know, they had never seen women flying, and why were they there?

01:24:29.120 - 01:24:40.600

I mean, this was their conversation, I assume. And they wanted to know how they flew, so Captain Duncan took us up. >> And showed them. >> Yeah, thank goodness.

01:24:40.600 - 01:24:53.840

Cuz it was, you can have one of those days, and then you can have a day where you bounce all over everything. But it was one of the days where it was smooth. >> And I'm gonna ask you, and don't let your ego get in the way,

01:24:53.840 - 01:25:06.680

why did Captain Duncan select you? >> I think I was handy. [LAUGH] That's the only thing, cuz I say, I was handy. And I was CO of the girls, so

01:25:06.680 - 01:25:25.120

I don't know whether that had anything to do with it or not. >> What were your responsibilities as CO of the WASP? >> Trying to make sure they did what they were supposed to do, cuz some of them didn't really wanna be there.

01:25:25.120 - 01:25:34.720

I don't know what they wanted to do. But we didn't have too much trouble. I didn't really do a lot. >> Did you have to make reports to headquarters?

01:25:34.720 - 01:25:48.880

>> Not, no. The base took care of, they took care of anything we needed. >> Did Miss Conklin ever come down and visit that? >> No, she was never there.

01:25:48.880 - 01:26:02.560

Cuz it was about 45 miles west of San Antonio, and it was a little Mexican town. That's all that there was, was a Mexican town. We had Pete's place.

01:26:05.360 - 01:26:26.760

And I said, one night I was going to find out how they ate their chili. So every time one of them put hot sauce in, I did. No wonder they're so short. [LAUGH] I just couldn't believe it, I couldn't believe it.

01:26:26.760 - 01:26:45.480

And Pete's place was the only place in Hondo for us to go and eat. They did have good food, Mexican food. And the next door to it was a little dance hall. Dirt floors only.

01:26:45.480 - 01:27:02.160

It was that hard pack just like they have in Mexico. Yeah, that was the only place in town. So if we went, we'd go into San Antonio cuz it was only 45 miles. >> Did you ever dance on that dirt?

01:27:02.160 - 01:27:14.560

>> Of course, of course. [LAUGH] And I ate their chili. Not quite as hot as they did, but almost. >> What were your other social activities while you were at Hondo?

01:27:14.560 - 01:27:27.680

>> We didn't do much. We'd meet up in the rec hall, and some of them would play bridge and listen to music, really study. You still were studying.

01:27:29.000 - 01:27:51.040

And we would eat at the, we were officers, considered officers. And while Colonel Dainey was there, everything was fine. Then he was transferred and another colonel was brought in and he liked women. And when we went to eat, we had to sit at his table.

01:27:51.040 - 01:28:04.760

Well, that wasn't what we wanted because some of those second Louis we wanted. But he was still all for us. He was just great. I really, it was a wonderful time and I just stayed there all the time.

01:28:04.760 - 01:28:11.640

>> Did you meet anybody special while you were there? >> Yes and no. >> Okay. >> Mm-hm.

01:28:11.640 - 01:28:36.840

>> What is your most memorable experience about being at Hondo? >> I don't know that other than the year of flying, which is what I got, which I could never have done in civilian life. Because I think it wound up around 750 hours.

01:28:36.840 - 01:28:51.480

And that was a lot of twin engine time. And meeting this one particular, Dave, and he talked about Maryland, and they've remained friends. They still talk to him in California.

01:28:51.480 - 01:29:06.320

They're just wonderful people. >> But while you were at Hondo, occasionally you would get a BT and fly to Tulsa. >> The AT-7, the twin, yeah.

01:29:06.320 - 01:29:20.640

Yeah, the twin engine. If I got a crew that, a mission, actually a really school mission. But it wasn't hard to do because there were enough people around Tulsa that they were always saying, when are we going, when are we going?

01:29:20.800 - 01:29:36.480

[LAUGH] So I'd get a crew chief, a co-pilot, and an instructor, and then the students that lived around Tulsa. And we'd come up on Saturday, go back Sunday. >> Did you ever get any missions out, say, toward California?

01:29:36.480 - 01:29:57.360

>> No, El Paso was as far as, for our mission, as long as they had. Cuz we'd go out there in day and then back at night, and that's as far as we ever went. >> During the time you were flying at Hondo, was there ever a time when you

01:29:57.360 - 01:30:17.520

were a little bit concerned about any of the flying? >> Not about, actually, one friend, we don't ever know what happened. He came in at night from a mission and plowed in. Nobody ever knew cuz he was an excellent pilot.

01:30:17.520 - 01:30:34.560

Just those things would kind of make you stop and think. But I always kind of believed in the supernatural, I guess, time is your, when it's your time. I'm still here at 87.

01:30:34.560 - 01:30:44.240

[LAUGH] >> Was the whole crew killed on that mission? >> Yes, yes. >> Yeah, okay.

01:30:44.240 - 01:30:59.920

When did you first learn and how did you learn that the WASPs were going to be deactivated? >> I don't remember, other than everybody was talking about it. And we said, we don't wanna go, we don't want to.

01:30:59.920 - 01:31:15.760

>> While you were at Hondo, you got a temporary assignment. Could you tell me about those temporary assignments? The one to Orlando, for example. >> I don't know how I was chosen, I have no idea.

01:31:15.760 - 01:31:32.360

I just came through orders to go to Orlando to officer's training school. And I think it was in, was it June or July when it was no air conditioning down there. It was miserable, just miserable.

01:31:32.360 - 01:31:42.440

But we went down. >> How many of you went? >> I was the only one from there. >> How did you get from Hondo to Orlando?

01:31:42.440 - 01:31:51.120

>> Went by train. >> You rode the train a lot. >> Yeah, we really did. Well, they had trains back then, and buses weren't so popular.

01:31:51.120 - 01:32:11.560

And then while I was at Orlando, we went, Maxine was there too, she was at another base when she came. And we went down to Miami, or we're going down, and we caught a ride in an AT-7 Navy.

01:32:11.560 - 01:32:30.480

Well, they fly that airplane different than we did. [LAUGH] I said, I was petrified, cuz they circle the airport, and down and down, instead of going on this rectangle like we do. But we did, we had a good time.

01:32:30.480 - 01:32:38.280

>> And why did you go to Miami? >> For a weekend, for fun. >> For fun, okay. Any special boys that were down there?

01:32:38.280 - 01:32:48.280

>> No, no. >> Tell me what that school was like. What did you study? >> How to be an officer.

01:32:48.280 - 01:33:09.520

And I really don't remember too much about it, what we did have to do. It was strict, what an officer's expected of them, and so forth. >> And how long were you there? >> Well, I don't remember whether that was three or four weeks.

01:33:09.520 - 01:33:22.800

It seems like it was something like that. >> But there were other WASPs from other- >> Yes, from other ones that were brought in for this. >> And were there also Army Air Force officers going through that school?

01:33:22.800 - 01:33:32.640

>> No, it was just the girls. >> So when you finished that, you went back to Honda? >> Back to Honda. >> Then you got another temporary assignment.

01:33:32.640 - 01:33:50.160

Another one for some more instrument training at the Bryan, Texas, which was the big instrument school. I was sent there for training, and I think I was the only one sent there. I don't know whether they were trying to get rid of me or what, but anyway.

01:33:50.160 - 01:34:02.680

>> How was that training different than the instrument training you had gotten at Avenger? >> It was much more stringent, more, you didn't stray very much on it.

01:34:02.680 - 01:34:17.800

It was just, I guess you'd call pepped up or souped up type of training. >> And what kind of airplanes were you flying? >> We were in the BT. >> Okay, do you recall how many hours they gave you in instruments?

01:34:17.800 - 01:34:32.240

>> No, I don't remember. I don't remember how many. >> Okay, and where did you live when you were at Bryan? >> We had some barracks, just typical barracks.

01:34:32.240 - 01:34:50.720

Everything on the field, ate in the mess. >> Was that an enjoyable experience for you? >> Well, it was because I thought, what am I doing here? And I was enjoying instruments more by then because I could see

01:34:50.720 - 01:35:09.160

what you could do with them and so forth. >> When you were flying at Bryan with the navigation students, did you ever go on a mission on instruments? >> Well, now at Bryan, we were always with instructors.

01:35:09.160 - 01:35:21.920

>> No, I'm sorry, I meant we went back to Hondo. >> Yeah, were we what, hon? >> Did you ever go on an instrument mission at Hondo with those students? >> Yes, yes, yes, uh-huh.

01:35:21.920 - 01:35:37.440

We often were out on an instrument, yeah. >> Instrument sites, okay. >> Yeah. >> How were you notified, do you recall, that you were gonna be deactivated?

01:35:37.440 - 01:35:54.360

>> No, I don't. I just, I don't remember that, whether the others heard it and it came down or whether the officers on the field told us. I don't remember.

01:35:54.360 - 01:36:18.280

>> What is your personal opinion of why the WASPs were deactivated at that time? >> Well, women had not, they had been accepted to an extent. And there were boys returning from combat that needed the jobs. And that's what the excuse was, and I think that it was logical.

01:36:18.280 - 01:36:38.800

>> During the time that the WASPs were on active duty, what do you feel they accomplished? >> I think without them, it's been years in the making, but I think now our women airline pilots would never have made it.

01:36:39.880 - 01:36:54.560

And I think in the military, they wouldn't have made it, cuz they were a long time getting them past a point in the military. But now they are. I feel that we did help.

01:36:54.560 - 01:37:15.320

>> Is there anything that you would like to tell me about your training or about your assignment at Hongo that I've left out? >> No, it was just, to me, it was a different time in my life, which I look back on and I often think, did I really do that?

01:37:15.320 - 01:37:38.000

[LAUGH] It is, it was just, I think, did I really fly? It's been so long ago, and you think about it, but you don't. It was a marvelous experience, a marvelous time in my life, and I would not hesitate to recommend any girl to get into flying.

01:37:38.000 - 01:37:57.240

>> When you got orders and were disbanded, let me back up a minute. When did you get an official WASP uniform, and what did you think about it? >> We were one of the first ones, I think. I liked them, of course.

01:37:57.240 - 01:38:12.040

I wasn't used to anything else. Some of the girls that were rich were used to things, this thing, they were that way, but I just thought it was wonderful. >> Can you kind of describe that uniform?

01:38:12.040 - 01:38:35.080

>> Well, it was made, I've forgotten the name of the designer that Jackie had, but they were blue, beautiful material, because I had mine in storage at home, and my mother, well, she couldn't stand it, she altered it for a suit for herself. [LAUGH]

01:38:35.080 - 01:38:52.920

Which, at that time, she was very good at that, and I said, fine. I've had another one made since then. But I thought they were just really, I just felt proud as I could be, and I was strutting around in it with those wings on my chest and all.

01:38:56.080 - 01:39:11.880

>> When you were deactivated, did the Hondo Army Air Base do anything special for you girls? >> No, we just had dinner, I think, at the club that night, is all that we did. >> And then tell me about leaving the base.

01:39:11.880 - 01:39:33.120

How did you then get back to Tulsa? >> Then they flew us, at the time, for some reason, Tulsa was restricted. So they could not fly except into Muskogee, and they let me off there, and I got a bus from there up to Tulsa.

01:39:33.120 - 01:39:46.000

>> Did you have on your uniform? >> I think so, I think we did, uh-huh. >> Were you in an AT7 from Hondo to Muskogee? >> Mm-hm, mm-hm.

01:39:46.000 - 01:40:02.400

>> Okay. When you got back to Tulsa, came home again, then what did you do? >> Well, I sat down and cried. [LAUGH] I didn't wanna go home, but I was home,

01:40:02.400 - 01:40:22.240

and I knew then that I had to take my life back again. So two of the girls, Mary Kuhn and Emmy Drummond, came with me to Tulsa, stayed with me here for a couple days. Trying to figure out what we wanted to do.

01:40:22.240 - 01:40:38.880

And they decided they wanted to go back home. And I went to California and lived with an aunt and uncle, and then met people on the airport, on the, of all names for an airport, coffin, air service.

01:40:38.880 - 01:40:50.880

[LAUGH] >> Why did you decide on California? >> I think Emmy was more or less, she still lives there, and we've remained friends all this time.

01:40:50.880 - 01:41:09.640

And I had never been there, and I just went with her, and I had an aunt and uncle that I could stay with, and I did. And then they introduced me to people that knew this man, and from there it worked into having this school.

01:41:09.640 - 01:41:23.440

>> Okay. Were your grandparents still alive at that point? >> No, let's see, yes they were too, yes. >> I was gonna ask if your grandparents ever were ever able to stand and

01:41:23.440 - 01:41:33.360

watch you fly. >> No, they were not. My grandmother was a large woman and she didn't do very much and grandpa didn't either.

01:41:33.360 - 01:41:50.680

But I remember they never did come to the field, I don't think. And I never did get them to fly. The folks, of course, I got, when I get back, I rent an airplane. Get everybody to fly with me.

01:41:50.680 - 01:42:03.640

[LAUGH] Cub, you know? But- >> When you got, when you were in California and you're with this Mr. Coffin, then what did you do?

01:42:03.640 - 01:42:22.320

>> I owned, he let me have this instrument flying school, and I was also keeping books for him. And this was in preparing the returning boys to fly civilian airplanes again, is what it was for.

01:42:22.320 - 01:42:47.120

Cuz I had two, I had a couple airplanes, a BT-15 and the Fairchild 24. And then a couple, Can't remember the instrument thing, you know what I'm talking about.

01:42:47.120 - 01:42:58.760

>> A link trainer? >> Yeah. A couple of the, anyway, so they get their instruments on the ground. >> Yeah, link trainers.

01:42:58.760 - 01:43:12.600

>> Yeah, the link trainers, that's what it was. That's what they were. We had a couple of those, because they all had to take a ride with the FAA. And they'd come out to the field, give the boys rides,

01:43:12.600 - 01:43:27.280

tell them they were, pass them or not, you know? >> Okay. >> But we didn't have any payers, they all went on out. >> At that time, were there restrictions on flying in California?

01:43:27.280 - 01:43:45.560

>> Yes, you had certain areas you didn't fly in, and you flew just around the airports. You could go cross country, but it was just certain areas. So they lifted that not long after that.

01:43:45.560 - 01:44:02.880

>> Were there other girls working at that same school? >> Well, there was a Lene Johnson who was there, and she had not been in service. She had just always worked there. But she had her private license.

01:44:04.760 - 01:44:20.760

>> Then how long did you stay at that? >> Well, I was there, I think it was three years before the land was sold to the Santa Fe Railroad and the airport was closed. >> And then what did you do?

01:44:20.760 - 01:44:43.640

>> Then, what did I do then? Did I come back to, I lived in San Francisco a while. And that company went bankrupt, I got bad luck. And then I moved to Dallas, and that was there with this company.

01:44:43.640 - 01:44:57.360

I ran into, when I come out of the unemployment office, I ran into a fellow that I had known in California that was a pilot. And I told him this place I was going to go look. He said, it's a good man, go there.

01:44:57.360 - 01:45:15.200

So I did, and Mr. Oaks was a wonderful person to work for. And I didn't do any flying or anything there. That's when I got sick. And then, I went, after I got sick, I came home to recover.

01:45:15.200 - 01:45:35.720

And then went back and worked, and then mother died, and I moved back. Then to make a home for my father, and he lived for about four years. And I stayed on then in the house, and had my own accounting business in town. >> When you got out of the WASP,

01:45:35.720 - 01:45:55.560

as far as flying jobs, say with airlines, how did you find that? >> Nobody would even talk to you. They were very, very unreceptive. Even Mrs. Beach, when she knew how much time we had had in the beach,

01:45:55.560 - 01:46:18.760

you know, she said no, no, no. They weren't the least bit interested, because they still had enough men. And they were not yet thinking women pilots. >> When you came back and stayed with your dad until he passed away,

01:46:18.760 - 01:46:37.240

then did you keep working after that? >> Yes, I worked, as I say, I had my own business then. And we had a little airport out here in town, that little grass strip. So I used to go out there and fly every day, it was delightful.

01:46:37.240 - 01:47:03.280

>> Through the years, how have you kept in touch with other WASPs? >> Well, conventions mostly, and then by phone and mail. It seems to be a little grapevine going along, you know? You can learn what someone's doing and how they're doing and so forth.

01:47:03.280 - 01:47:25.880

>> Tell me about your involvement with the WASP organization. >> Well, I didn't go to anything for a while. I think I was busy at home there. Then I started the conventions, and then I was on a nominating committee,

01:47:25.880 - 01:47:38.920

and then the next year or two, then I became treasurer of the national organization. And that's all. >> Are you still active in that organization? >> Yes, yes.

01:47:38.920 - 01:47:58.000

I have been down to TWU, Betty Smith, who you're going to, she wanted to take some things down, so we went down for a weekend. And if I ever get around to it, I'll get mine. [LAUGH] I've got so much junk, they call it,

01:47:58.000 - 01:48:17.240

it's memorabilia from both flying privately in the WASP. And then I said, I belong to the 99s. I don't know why sometimes. >> And now you live in Sand Springs, and how do you spend your time now?

01:48:17.240 - 01:48:35.280

>> Well, I really, I don't know. I do a lot of cross stitch, a lot of things. And I belong to Quota Club, which is an organization. We furnish all the hearing aids and batteries for the schools, and

01:48:35.280 - 01:48:57.800

I'll buy their equipment for them and all. And they're very active in this and that, and I have lunch with the girls and all. And I do, during tax season, I do volunteer income tax for the IRS and AARP. And we have, of course, Oklahoma has income tax.

01:48:57.800 - 01:49:13.360

You don't have it in Texas, no. But Oklahoma has it, so. And that's through April, of course. And I don't travel anymore.

01:49:13.360 - 01:49:33.160

My car's ten years old, so I don't go out on the road. I used to go down to Texas and visit. I had worked before I moved back the last time I worked. Mary Jane had a flight school in Andro Air Park, and I managed it for years.

01:49:33.160 - 01:49:48.280

And I told her, when I get to be 65, that was it, I'm through. So I moved back home. She's an examiner, an FA examiner now. >> Tell me, Mary Helen, what makes you happy?

01:49:48.280 - 01:50:08.520

>> Just being alive, waking up every morning. Yes, waking up every morning, I'm just delighted. I don't think I have any hang-ups of any kind, because there's always something to do, in my way of thinking, anyway.

01:50:08.520 - 01:50:24.040

There's always so many things I should do that I don't get around to. >> As you look back over your life, what is the one thing that you have done that you are most proud of? >> Well, being a WASP.

01:50:24.040 - 01:50:44.760

Making it through and serving and flying in Hondo, which I think is very unusual. >> And then speaking of the WASP, what do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be?

01:50:44.760 - 01:51:08.320

>> Well, I feel that they made a point in history that just can't be touched in any way. I just don't think there's ever been anything before or after, the nursing profession were great, but there have been nurses around.

01:51:08.320 - 01:51:26.840

There just hadn't been pilots. I just think we braved or made a way for other women. And I think women in turn in the whole concept of life have come up because of some of these things.

01:51:26.840 - 01:51:43.360

I really do. >> You've given me little excerpts about Jacqueline Cochran. Tell me, what is your personal opinion? >> I think without Jackie, we wouldn't have been.

01:51:43.360 - 01:51:58.360

I think she was a very aggressive person. And I just couldn't help but admire her. When I read where she, on her way to New York, she took the name of Jackie Cochran.

01:51:58.360 - 01:52:12.480

Now, you know there's a lot of guts there somewhere. [LAUGH] And without her, we would never have become, we would never have been, because Nancy was a nice person, but she was not aggressive enough.

01:52:12.480 - 01:52:32.200

And I think Jackie is just great. We've been to several banquets where she was and so forth, and she's always been. I just think the world over myself. >> As you look back over your life,

01:52:32.200 - 01:52:44.280

there have been happy times and there have been sad times. >> Oh, sure, sure. >> What has gotten you through those sad times? >> In the belief that there's always tomorrow.

01:52:44.280 - 01:52:54.080

There's always a day ahead of you. This will pass. Just like my new surgery. This will pass.

01:52:54.080 - 01:52:58.880

He's done it. He's been in there before. He knows what he's doing. [LAUGH]

01:52:58.880 - 01:53:17.200

So, and I don't know whether I tell you, the kids in school, when you go to talk to them, and I'll always tell them one thing. If you want to get high, learn to fly. Don't do drugs.

01:53:17.200 - 01:53:25.680

Yeah, learn to fly. And some of them, they, what? [LAUGH] So, that's my philosophy on it.

01:53:25.680 - 01:53:44.600

>> In looking ahead, generations to come will watch. Watch you and listen to what you say. What would you like to tell those children in future generations? What advice could you give them that might make them want to succeed and have hope?

01:53:44.600 - 01:53:59.880

>> Well, always believe in something. Believe in your dreams. Believe in your dreams. And as I say, don't let anybody talk you into smoking or drugs or anything.

01:53:59.880 - 01:54:09.920

You don't do drugs. You want to get high, learn to fly. Mm-hm. >> Is there anything that I have left out?

01:54:09.920 - 01:54:15.720

>> I don't think so. [LAUGH] I think you had me talking. [LAUGH]

01:54:15.720 - 01:54:22.960

>> I have a few questions. >> Oh. >> Can I ask you about your time at Baylor Hospital? >> Three months.

01:54:22.960 - 01:54:42.040

>> And about that situation with the doctor that came in. >> Well, he was a flight surgeon in England during the war. And the, my intestines had ruptured. A strangulated femoral hernia, which three doctors had misdiagnosed.

01:54:42.040 - 01:54:54.240

I had been to three different, they said, just a glandular tumor. You should remove it. Well, it was my intestines all the time. Anyway, they ruptured about midnight and

01:54:54.240 - 01:55:10.520

I got to the hospital about eight the next morning. And he immediately ordered penicillin. And Baylor Hospital said, no, we will not give it to her cuz it will kill her. He said, she'll die without it.

01:55:10.520 - 01:55:28.960

They said, we don't care, we won't take the responsibility. So he came to the hospital every four hours and gave me a shot of penicillin to get me through those first few days. And stayed with me those three months and

01:55:28.960 - 01:55:47.920

there were just adhesions and the intestines, of course, had ruptured. And I operated out of holes. [LAUGH] I had stabbed wounds above and below the liver because I had yellow jaundice and they call them stab wounds.

01:55:47.920 - 01:56:07.120

They just go in and put a drain in. And I had drains all over the side and it wasn't a very nice time. But I don't know that I ever really gave up. One night, [LAUGH] they were doing some remodeling and

01:56:07.120 - 01:56:26.280

I woke up about two o'clock in the morning and outside my window was flames. And I thought, have I died and gone to hell? [LAUGH] It was the first thing in my mind. Then I realized that the construction had gotten on fire out there.

01:56:26.280 - 01:56:45.280

[LAUGH] But I had to have private nurses. At that time, you could get them around the clock. My parents came down, mother stayed, and she came back and back and forth. I had an aunt and uncle who lived in Fort Worth and they came over.

01:56:45.280 - 01:56:59.320

And it just kept nipping and tucking. And I had several doctors that were called in that wouldn't even bill me. They said, no, you've got enough trouble without a bill, which you heard of anything like that nowadays.

01:56:59.320 - 01:57:17.160

No, and it was over six months later before this one doctor even billed me anything and then it was, they gave it half price. >> Let me ask you about your grandchildren. Do they know what you did during World War II?

01:57:17.160 - 01:57:34.560

What do they think of that? >> They're pretty excited about it, yeah. They're still, I think, involved in their own lives at this stage. Cuz Sean now is over at Arkansas University in chemistry and

01:57:34.560 - 01:57:49.760

he's just a brain in that. I don't know where he goes. [LAUGH] And then Sarah is all, she's going to TJC and they gave her a little job answering the phone, so that's solved.

01:57:49.760 - 01:58:04.280

And she has a friend who's a medical student at OU, so everything's lovely. >> Well, let me ask you about your son then. Does he not fly now? >> No, not anymore.

01:58:04.280 - 01:58:19.200

Well, flying is so different now. They're just in there going around the patch and that's what it's all about. Like we have an airport out here by Pogue Airport, which is one of the astronauts, he was from here.

01:58:19.200 - 01:58:34.320

And you don't go out and just get in an airplane, fly around the field. You just don't do that anymore. >> What was your favorite airplane to fly? >> Well, the AT-6, of course.

01:58:34.320 - 01:58:43.600

Everybody liked it, and the Cub, I still like a Cub. I think it's still around. >> Mm-hm. >> Mm-hm.

01:58:43.600 - 01:59:05.760

>> Mm-hm, okay. Last thing on your interview, what do you want to say to those grandkids? >> Well, pursue your dreams by all means. Don't let obstacles in the road get in your way.

01:59:05.760 - 01:59:19.800

You can get over them. >> You've been wonderful. Thank you so much, not only for us, thank you for children and future generations who are gonna watch you and listen to you.

01:59:19.800 - 01:59:31.400

Thank you. >> I've enjoyed it, and to say anybody listens to me. [LAUGH] >> Do you happen to have a picture at all of your folks at your graduation?

01:59:31.400 - 01:59:37.960

>> I do, but- >> Your mom and dad. >> But you don't know where it is. >> No, I'm sorry. >> That's okay, I can turn this off.