00:00:00.000 - 00:00:36.400

(static) (static) - Hello, I'm Deanie Parrish. We're interviewing Mary Van Deventer.

00:00:36.400 - 00:00:49.320

She was a WASP, class 44-7. We are in her home in Luters, Texas. Today is the 21st of September, 2000. Now Mary, if you will just tell us your name,

00:00:49.320 - 00:01:02.960

when and where you were born, and who were your parents. - My name is Mary Alice Putnam Van Deventer. I was born in Luters, Texas. My father was Thomas Rogers Putnam.

00:01:02.960 - 00:01:22.400

My mother was Eunice Smart Putnam. I was born in March 18th, 1923. - As you, as a small child, Mary, what did your dad do? - When I was very young,

00:01:22.400 - 00:01:39.260

I think my father was in dry goods business, but later he was a banker here in Luters. He was a vice president of the bank. - And at the present time, tell us where you live.

00:01:39.260 - 00:01:49.760

- I live here in Luters. I have lived here for some time, but I was away for about 25 years. - And tell us about this particular house

00:01:49.760 - 00:01:57.620

where we're interviewing you. - This house, this is the house that I was born in. And there's been some changes made, but I was born here.

00:01:57.620 - 00:02:16.120

- When you were growing up as a small child, tell us the very first remembrances you have of growing up. - I remember my sister was older than I, about five years,

00:02:16.120 - 00:02:31.840

and I always wanted her to play with me. And she was always interested in doing other things. But we did play paper dolls that we cut out of magazines, and also a game that she originated called rooms,

00:02:31.840 - 00:02:42.280

where you would cut the pictures of different rooms and magazines, and we'd paste them up on the bottom of the piano or on the dining room, bottom of the dining room table.

00:02:42.280 - 00:02:58.360

But that didn't last very long because she had other interests. I can remember having some ducks that would walk across. In dry West Texas, we had three ducks.

00:02:58.360 - 00:03:10.320

I don't even remember their names, but they would walk across by the windows to the trees where mother kept a duck out, and the ducks would swim in that.

00:03:10.320 - 00:03:24.120

We had cats. We had, in the spring of the year, we seemed to go to the storm cellar quite a bit. We'd have, in the '20s, late '30s, early '30s,

00:03:24.120 - 00:03:37.080

we'd go to the storm cellar because clouds would come up, and you didn't know what was in them. And my father had been in a tornado at one time, and so he had a cellar belt,

00:03:37.080 - 00:03:44.760

and mother would come in and wake us up in the middle of the night. We're going to the cellar, we're going to the cellar. She'd try to be calm, and we'd track off down into it

00:03:44.760 - 00:03:51.680

and stay half the night. Those were usually in the springs of the year, and I remember that more than anything. - At that point, did you have a radio

00:03:51.680 - 00:03:58.960

so that you would get-- - No, there were no weather forecasts. You just went out and looked. Seemed like we were always looking to the northwest,

00:03:58.960 - 00:04:08.920

and we'd stand out by the cellar door, and they'd say, "The wind's with it," and they'd come down. I never saw a tornado until years, years later, and it was up in the sky.

00:04:08.920 - 00:04:22.360

But we went into the cellar to protection from 'em. - Tell them about some of the weather that you did see. - When I was in the first grade, that was the beginning of, it was the spring of '30,

00:04:22.360 - 00:04:34.800

1930, I guess it was, when I was in the first grade, and we had gone to school in the morning, and it was a nice, mild day, and I had on a little white, boiled dress,

00:04:34.800 - 00:04:46.800

and I remembered at noon, we came home to eat lunch, my sister and I, and I got about halfway home from school and realized that I had rhythm band practice, which we always had in the spring competition

00:04:46.800 - 00:04:59.520

at the county meet where every school participated, and I'd forgotten that we had practice, so I went back to the auditorium and began to practice. And while we were practicing, the back door swung open,

00:04:59.520 - 00:05:14.000

and I could see my uncle in there, tall, thin, with the legs, the wind whipping at his legs, and he was talking to them, and then they shut the door, and I don't remember whether they told me

00:05:14.000 - 00:05:22.580

that I was supposed to stay there, because that's what he had told them to tell me, or whether they told me and I didn't pay any attention, but I decided that I'd go home.

00:05:22.580 - 00:05:37.280

And I knew which way to go, but I couldn't see anything, so I walked across the school ground till I hit the fence and followed the fence on home. And when I got home, there wasn't anybody there.

00:05:37.280 - 00:05:46.440

They were in the cellar, so I went out to the cellar and banged on the door. They didn't hear me. I went up to my aunt's house next door,

00:05:46.440 - 00:05:55.760

found the cat, brought it back with me. Then I decided maybe I'd better go back to school, so I trucked back to school. Well, by the time it was all over,

00:05:55.760 - 00:06:09.440

I was shredded with the rocks, paddled. The little white boy dress was torn, it was brown. I wasn't afraid. I knew which way to go, and I went blind till I hit the fence

00:06:09.440 - 00:06:23.760

but those dust storms would come over. Those were the beginnings of them, and they would come over huge clouds of black rolling dust. And you couldn't tell whether it was a storm

00:06:23.760 - 00:06:32.320

or whether it was just dust, but there'd always be wind with it, and it would dust and dust would come. And I remember saying to my mother one time,

00:06:32.320 - 00:06:42.560

I was supposed to do some of the cleaning in the house. I was supposed to clean, and I hated to clean because they had shades that pulled down, and if you let them go accidentally,

00:06:42.560 - 00:06:55.040

they'd shoot up and the dust would just scatter everywhere. And I'd say to her, "Mother, why are we gonna, why even do this? We'll just have to do it all over again tomorrow."

00:06:55.040 - 00:07:09.240

We had to do it and clean the dust out. But it was dry, very dry here in those days, and it looks like it's the same way now. But this community was mostly farming community.

00:07:09.240 - 00:07:22.040

And families, family farmers lived on, oh, probably 160 acres, some of them, probably maybe a little bit more than that, and they had the children.

00:07:22.040 - 00:07:30.040

A lot of the children walked to school. I know they don't like to hear about how they walked to school, but they did. And we had some children that were in my class,

00:07:30.040 - 00:07:40.720

but this was before buses, and they walked across the railroad bridge to come to school. And the first school bus that I remember

00:07:40.720 - 00:07:51.880

looked like a chicken coop. It was square, I still have a picture of it. School was in a two-story building, and each was individual rooms.

00:07:51.880 - 00:08:03.400

I must say that I don't remember anything about the first grade except the sandbox. And not much, it's funny what you remember and what you don't, you don't remember a lot of things.

00:08:03.400 - 00:08:15.640

And some things stand out, and other things don't. - Tell me about your grandparents. - My grandfather, my mother's father, I didn't know my father's father,

00:08:15.640 - 00:08:31.400

because he died in 1924, and my grandmother died in 1907. But my mother's people, my grandfather was blind, and he lived to be about in his 80s. And after my grandmother died, he lived with us for a while.

00:08:31.400 - 00:08:46.160

And he never understood about the radio. They had soap operas in the 1930s, and that's how it got started. But on the radio, there'd be soap operas,

00:08:46.160 - 00:08:54.840

and he never understood who those people were. He thought that there were people in the house. And I was about 10 years old, and I tried to explain to him that,

00:08:54.840 - 00:09:07.960

no, that was the radio, that wasn't anybody. He just, he never just quite understood it. What is that woman talking about, he would say. But then he was also getting old,

00:09:07.960 - 00:09:17.160

and probably a little senile also. But he was the most patient person. He had long, flowing white mustache, and great white hair that flew.

00:09:17.160 - 00:09:29.680

And he used to let us comb it and brush his hair. And he had a cane, and we would play around him, and we'd run around, and he'd try to catch us with his cane. He was a very patient gentleman.

00:09:29.680 - 00:09:39.800

- During those dust storms, Mary, how did the farmers survive that? What did it do to their crops? - They didn't make any crops.

00:09:39.800 - 00:09:52.440

They didn't make any crops for about three or four years. They didn't make any crops at all. And... My father was in the bank at that time,

00:09:52.440 - 00:10:05.840

and his little bank didn't close. They closed in Stanford, and they closed in Abilene, closed in Anson. But he kept the little bank open.

00:10:05.840 - 00:10:17.720

And he used to say, "I know the man." And these people might not have had anything. I mean, they'd lost anything, but they would do what they said they would do.

00:10:17.720 - 00:10:28.840

And a lot of them left, would take their families to go to South Texas, where it wasn't so bad, and sometimes pick the cotton and make a go of it. It was very hard on 'em.

00:10:28.840 - 00:10:42.240

But he never foreclosed on anyone. And the little bank stayed open the whole time. - Did they sometimes pay him off with vegetables? - Not him.

00:10:42.240 - 00:10:55.060

Not him. I do know that a lot of times, because if the farmers didn't have anything, I can remember my father saying over and over and over,

00:10:55.060 - 00:11:08.460

"Can't you get by on less? "It's easy to borrow, but it's hard to pay back." And I guess that stayed with me all my life. But a lot of times, the farmers would come in,

00:11:08.460 - 00:11:22.620

and he would say, "My uncle had a dry goods store." And he said, "Why don't you go down to the dry goods store, "and Herman," who was his brother-in-law, "he'll carry you, and there won't be any interest

00:11:22.620 - 00:11:33.980

"until your crop comes in." Well, that saved the farmer the cost of the interest. And where they needed it, he would make it. But he'd always say to 'em,

00:11:33.980 - 00:11:47.500

"Now, can't you get by on a little bit less?" And couldn't stand, my mother, I have to tell you this, mother went to work shortly after I'd hit in the bank, and she wanted to buy some new dishes,

00:11:47.500 - 00:11:56.440

and she bought some on time. And they were paying it out, and my father nearly had to fit. He didn't believe in buying anything on time.

00:11:56.440 - 00:12:12.900

If you didn't have the money, you didn't buy. But she bought the dishes and paid 'em out. - In elementary school, do you recall any of your teachers that were kind of your role models?

00:12:12.900 - 00:12:31.180

- I don't remember my first grade teacher. I remember one teacher who had musical instruments, not that I was a musician, because I never was, but we made a notebook of instruments and the music.

00:12:31.180 - 00:12:46.660

I don't remember too much about the early teachers. I do remember a history teacher. - Tell us about her. - It was a man, and his name was Berkman,

00:12:46.660 - 00:13:04.260

and he went on, he left here, only taught in two schools, and one was here, and the other was at Round Rock. And I can remember, he read to us J. Frank Dobey's, some of his books in the classroom on Friday.

00:13:04.260 - 00:13:17.640

He made it interesting, he made history come alive for me. So I've always had an interest in history, local and otherwise. But he was a good history teacher.

00:13:17.640 - 00:13:31.220

- As you were in school in Luters, was that kind of a county school? - No, no, it was an individual school. The school here was not accredited for a full,

00:13:31.220 - 00:13:46.720

in my day, it was 11 years, you only went 11 years. But they weren't accredited until about 1936, and my sister went to Stanford for two years, to high school, so she would have the credits

00:13:46.720 - 00:13:57.380

to go into college. But by the time I came along, it was a fully accredited school. - How large was Luters, how many people were grown up?

00:13:57.380 - 00:14:18.140

- I don't know the population. I know that there were two or three drug stores, there were hardware stores, two dry goods store, movies, movie house, there was a refinery,

00:14:18.140 - 00:14:29.100

and rock quarries. Luters is known more or less for its stone, and they've shipped stone from all over. Tech, a lot of the buildings at Tech

00:14:29.100 - 00:14:40.760

were built from Luters limestone. But I suppose coming with the '50s and the improvement of highways, and the refinery closed,

00:14:40.760 - 00:14:53.700

and the rock mills were shipped off to Austin until the little town just began to die. Until now, there's just absolutely very little left of it. Which is sad, but I guess that's progress.

00:14:53.700 - 00:15:09.100

- As you were growing up, tell me what a Christmas was like in your home, in this home. - As I said, I had an aunt and uncle that lived next door, and they didn't have any children,

00:15:09.100 - 00:15:18.620

so they always shared their Christmas with us. Well, he had the dry goods store, and he always had to stay open 'til New Year's Eve, on New Year's Eve for the last people

00:15:18.620 - 00:15:28.700

to get whatever they needed. And sometimes we would go down to the dry goods store and wait on Christmas Eve, because we had our opening of our presents on Christmas Eve.

00:15:28.700 - 00:15:43.740

And we'd go down, and I would always stand at the back door and look out to see the road to see if I could see Santa going down the road. But we'd wait until after he closed the store,

00:15:43.740 - 00:15:56.660

and then we would go home and we'd open the presents. And then the next day was the day when we had the family dinners. Usually, we had three family dinners,

00:15:56.660 - 00:16:07.940

one at Christmas, one at Thanksgiving, one at Christmas, and one at New Year's. But usually, it was my aunt and uncle and our immediate family for Christmas.

00:16:07.940 - 00:16:15.100

And that was a big day. - Would you have a Christmas tree? - Oh, yes. I'm always-- - Where would you get the tree?

00:16:15.100 - 00:16:25.420

- I really don't know where they got it. - Are there any Christmas-- - It was fir-- No, there's no Christmas trees around here, but I don't know, maybe they used fir trees.

00:16:25.420 - 00:16:31.140

Maybe they got them around Palo Pinto, somewhere down there. Or maybe they were shipped in. I really don't know.

00:16:31.140 - 00:16:42.020

We didn't go cut them. - Do you remember you and your sister helping decorate? - Oh, yes, we'd do the decorations of it and sneak around and feel around at the packages

00:16:42.020 - 00:16:51.460

to see what might be in it and shake a little. But-- - When you went into junior high school, what was your favorite subject?

00:16:51.460 - 00:17:07.620

- You know, in my day, I don't really remember junior high school as such. - What about high school? - I suppose speech.

00:17:07.620 - 00:17:17.380

I had a speech, new speech teacher. I liked that. I liked history. - What were your outside activities

00:17:17.380 - 00:17:23.840

when you were in junior high school? - High school? I have to explain to you, high school here was,

00:17:23.840 - 00:17:34.840

junior high was from about to the eighth grade and then eighth grade on was high school. I finished when I was about 17.

00:17:34.840 - 00:17:44.180

I'm sorry, what was the question? - What were your outside activities? - Okay. I played basketball.

00:17:44.180 - 00:17:52.860

And in the early days, there was no gymnasium. We didn't have any. We played outside. And it was gravel and they had poles at each end

00:17:52.860 - 00:18:09.140

and it was divided off and lime was put around the market. Then the school burned in 1935 and I think school burned all over the country that year. And with that came new school buildings and gymnasiums.

00:18:09.140 - 00:18:19.740

So we had that. And I played basketball through junior high and through high school. And we had some, I had real fine, good coaches,

00:18:19.740 - 00:18:25.780

real good coaches. But in those days, it was a lot different than what it is today. But I enjoyed playing that.

00:18:25.780 - 00:18:37.860

We also, another interesting thing, we had, it always reminded me of the music man because a fella came through town and he had an opening to go to start a band here.

00:18:37.860 - 00:18:48.780

So he brought all these secondhand instruments and had them out in the gym. And we went out to look at them and see what they were. And we picked up, I couldn't make up my mind

00:18:48.780 - 00:18:58.900

and by the time I got through, the only thing available was a trombone. So I got a trombone. And this man went around and he would direct us.

00:18:58.900 - 00:19:12.700

He went also up to Stanford and to Hamlin and set it up, set the thing up there. It reminded me of the music man because he wasn't a member of the school.

00:19:12.700 - 00:19:23.460

But we had this band and he taught us. And I remember sometimes at ball games, we would be on the stage 'cause the stage was part of the gymnasium

00:19:23.460 - 00:19:36.060

and playing in the band. And then when it was time to play basketball, I'd put the horn down and go play basketball. But they finally got together with this little band

00:19:36.060 - 00:19:46.100

and they had a American Legion band that they took members from both Hamlin, Stanford and Luters and made them, had American Legion band out of it.

00:19:46.100 - 00:20:00.460

But then I guess the first, that my first introduction to, we had a speech or drama was when we had a young teacher that came over from Abilene and she was a speech major,

00:20:00.460 - 00:20:10.820

but she was teaching in the elementary grades. And she directed one of the first one-act plays that we ever had. And I was in that.

00:20:10.820 - 00:20:18.020

- What did you play? - I think it was a Bishop's, I can't remember, Bishop's Candlesticks. I think is what the name of the play was.

00:20:18.020 - 00:20:23.700

And I think I played a part of the woman. I don't know, but I got best actress. So I don't know. - Was that your first introduction?

00:20:23.700 - 00:20:31.420

- That was the first. Well, no, we had had some little plays. The community used to have, when we had, before the building burned,

00:20:31.420 - 00:20:42.980

we had a nice auditorium. And they'd have the, the community would have musicals and other members of the community would do the parts.

00:20:42.980 - 00:20:51.320

And I think as children, they also would have, some lady would do children's musicals or little plays for children. And it was a nice auditorium.

00:20:51.320 - 00:21:01.380

So, and they had the, it seemed like when I was in my junior, around junior high, they had another musical that people did.

00:21:01.380 - 00:21:11.180

But nothing that I really did or any acting in it, just members of the cast. - How about at Christmas at your church? Did they have little pageants?

00:21:11.180 - 00:21:20.820

Tell me about those. - We'd dress up, and come bathrobes and towels around their head. And we would march.

00:21:20.820 - 00:21:32.900

We'd come in, we'd have the, we three kings and whatever. And the shepherds and all of that, we'd have that. There's one boy that I remember,

00:21:32.900 - 00:21:41.940

his name was Mickey Johnson. And he later went on, he grew up to be a tall, tall man. Both his mother and father were tall.

00:21:41.940 - 00:21:53.740

And every year, he must've been over six feet tall. And he was in the Marines in World War II. And every year he would come in,

00:21:53.740 - 00:22:07.480

and he would say this little poem. But now I can't think of it. Something in the land of the fir tree and bright. Everywhere, everywhere, Christmas do not.

00:22:07.480 - 00:22:19.220

But I haven't. - What part would you usually play at Christmas? - I don't even remember. There's some things I don't really remember playing.

00:22:19.940 - 00:22:29.100

Oh, I don't really remember those things. - In high school, your teams, your basketball team, did you have a football team? - Yes, we did.

00:22:29.100 - 00:22:38.300

It was about 1938, they started the first basketball team. - Did you compete with other schools? - Yes, other schools of our size.

00:22:38.300 - 00:22:45.980

Rochester and, I can remember them. And I guess there were others. I don't really remember.

00:22:45.980 - 00:22:55.100

I was playing in the band. And the first year that we had it, we didn't have any grass, and it was dirt. And we would sit on the side of the,

00:22:55.100 - 00:23:04.500

didn't have any bleachers the first year, and just used chairs for the band. And the sand would blow, and that trombone would get coated with dirt,

00:23:04.500 - 00:23:18.020

and just go (growls) up and down. And our collars would get filthy. But the football took on, we enjoyed the football.

00:23:18.020 - 00:23:22.860

- Did you have uniforms in band? - Oh yes. - Tell me about your uniform. - They were yellow.

00:23:22.860 - 00:23:34.340

They were gold and black, and had black straps around and caps. I still have a picture of them, of the band. - Did your mother and father participate

00:23:34.340 - 00:23:45.540

in the activities of you and your sister? For example, did they support the basketball team? - Oh yes, oh yes. Dad would go with us everywhere we went to the basketball,

00:23:45.540 - 00:23:54.740

and Mother did too. But in those days, 30s, they didn't have very many buses, and it cost too much to take them,

00:23:54.740 - 00:24:05.440

so usually they had to go in people's cars. And Dad frequently would take us. He liked the basketball, and he'd take us with him. And Mother would come when it was here.

00:24:05.440 - 00:24:18.660

In those days, they'd go to tournaments. And because of the distance, I guess, and the poor roads, you spent the night wherever you went. And if people came to your town,

00:24:18.660 - 00:24:30.460

you would open your house up to the students that come in, and you would take maybe two people and give them breakfast and things like that. And so when you'd go away,

00:24:30.460 - 00:24:48.060

you'd also stay at other places, people's houses. - In high school, junior high, high school, who were your role models? Or even in college, all your younger years,

00:24:48.060 - 00:25:01.860

who was your role model? - It's hard to say. I suppose Mr. Borkman, the history teacher, influenced me a lot.

00:25:01.860 - 00:25:14.840

And perhaps the speech teacher, or the woman who directed the one-act plays, I thought a lot of her and learned a lot from her. In college,

00:25:14.840 - 00:25:28.980

some of the teachers there, I think. - Did you have a high school prom? - We didn't, they didn't allow dancing in theaters in those days.

00:25:28.980 - 00:25:42.300

I have to tell you, Jones County was dry, bone dry, but there was a lot of what they call bootlegging. And out of the drugstore and various places.

00:25:42.300 - 00:25:56.460

And about 1930s, I don't know if you remember, but it came in in 1932 or 33, 3-2-B or whatever that was. And after they did that, we're on the line here

00:25:56.460 - 00:26:06.580

between Jones and Shackleford County. Well, Shackleford County was wet, but Jones was dry. And a man went down and built a dance hall down just outside, down by the river.

00:26:06.580 - 00:26:17.980

And we wanted, we didn't know how to dance. We wanted to learn to dance, but that was a no-no. You did not go down there. That was a no-no.

00:26:17.980 - 00:26:29.720

And some of them would go. And I can remember my father sitting on the porch and sitting down and telling me, I know that you're not gonna do anything wrong,

00:26:29.720 - 00:26:42.500

but it's not the place to be because things happen and you shouldn't, you would be involved. You just shouldn't go. So instead of letting us, having us go down there,

00:26:42.500 - 00:26:55.660

he would let me and some of the others take the car and we would drive over to a little place in Anson. And it was called Buttermilk Tavern. Now Anson says they didn't have any dances in Anson,

00:26:55.660 - 00:27:03.140

but that's not true. They had Buttermilk Tavern. And this was late high school. And it was a cement square.

00:27:03.140 - 00:27:15.540

And around it was a little wall that had, oh, about two feet high and you could sit on it. And it was all enclosed and with a little gate. And then at the end was a small building

00:27:15.540 - 00:27:25.660

where they sold candy and soft drinks. And we had a Nickelodeon and everybody would put their money in the Nickelodeon. We all danced there, the whole community,

00:27:25.660 - 00:27:41.900

Stanford, Anson, Luters, anywhere. And that did fairly well until about 1939 or '40 when the beginning of war and they opened Camp Barkley. And they began to open up beer joints and honky tonks

00:27:41.900 - 00:27:56.940

on that hill going down toward Albany. And the men from Barkley began to come over. And after that, we never did go there much over there. - Do you remember any special boyfriends

00:27:56.940 - 00:28:07.980

that you had in high school? - Well, not any particular. I didn't go with anyone. We went as groups and I went with one boy

00:28:07.980 - 00:28:23.820

and danced with them, but we'd find them with another. I also rode in a rodeo the year, I forgot about that. 19, when I was a senior in high school, I represented Luters at the Stanford Cowboy Reunion.

00:28:23.820 - 00:28:36.420

And I had an old horse that came from a ranch. It was my uncle's. My grandfather had a ranch in Throckmorton County and we lived there for a little while, back in 1920s.

00:28:36.420 - 00:28:49.320

But got this old horse, his name was Eagle and he was a paint and rode the barrels. Not very successfully. No, probably not.

00:28:49.320 - 00:28:59.540

I think the horse went out of the thing. But that horse was funny because he had never been off that ranch. And when he got up there and we were back behind,

00:28:59.540 - 00:29:09.580

waiting for the entry, for the grand entry, the music and the band started and that horse began to pick up his feet and he'd do this little dance job,

00:29:09.580 - 00:29:21.840

going into the arena like he was really showing off. But he was just an old cow horse that had never been anywhere like me. - In growing up, did you have a pony?

00:29:21.840 - 00:29:34.620

- No, no. - Or did you start when you tried? - Well, I have to explain. After my grandfather died in 1924, I was born in '23

00:29:34.620 - 00:29:50.900

and my father had been in a dry goods business and he had been in a car wreck, not a car wreck. My sister was about five or six years old and it was about the year I was born

00:29:50.900 - 00:30:00.660

and she ran across the street and he was going across the street with her and she jumped out and a car was coming. So he ran and grabbed her and threw her out of the way

00:30:00.660 - 00:30:12.920

and as a result, they drug him down the street and he broke his legs and did some other internal injuries. So he decided to go down to the ranch and he was going to work off down there.

00:30:12.920 - 00:30:24.380

And he did, he sold out at the dry goods store and he went down to the ranch. And although my sister had begun school by that time, so we still stayed here while she was in school

00:30:24.380 - 00:30:36.300

and then we would go down there on the weekends. It was the ranch that my grandfather had purchased and it's a historic house. It was built in 1875, double walls.

00:30:36.300 - 00:30:53.300

And there was a Camp Cooper, which was a military post that was established in 1854, I believe. And Robert E. Lee and about six other generals from the Civil War were stationed there.

00:30:53.300 - 00:31:07.700

It was the first cavalry, official, legitimate cavalry that they ever had that was put together. And it was down on this ranch. I ran off to the river with the dogs

00:31:07.700 - 00:31:20.940

when I was about three years old and they had a tank down there. I don't remember this, but they had a tank, a water tank. And no one was paying any attention to me, I guess.

00:31:20.940 - 00:31:37.140

And I climbed to the top of the water tank and was playing in the water when they saw me. So I guess I was pretty active. - Tell me about your high school graduation.

00:31:37.140 - 00:31:51.060

Did you have caps and gowns? - Yes, we had caps and gowns. I remember my shoes. Why do you remember some things and not others?

00:31:51.060 - 00:32:00.300

They were platform. Wide sandal platform. And they were high heel, I think multicolored. I'm sure they looked real good underneath that robe.

00:32:00.300 - 00:32:14.620

But I guess that's what I remember about the graduation. I don't really remember anything except that, behind the shoes. But then, you know, some of the things that I remember,

00:32:14.620 - 00:32:24.280

I don't remember how we washed our clothes in the wasp. I don't ever remember washing. Surely I did. Or the zoot suits.

00:32:24.280 - 00:32:34.040

- In high school, let me go back for a minute and ask you, when you were in speech, did you go to speech tournaments in high school? - No, not in those days.

00:32:34.040 - 00:32:47.760

This is back in '39. And really, it wasn't that well organized. I don't even think the basketball was organized into the state competitions that they had.

00:32:47.760 - 00:32:59.120

For a while, it was just county meets. Now, the final year that we had, we did have a tournament that included some people over at Ty or Trent or someplace.

00:32:59.120 - 00:33:08.600

But I was never sure what that was. I don't think it was, I don't think that was a state meet of any kind. - And growing up,

00:33:08.600 - 00:33:18.720

how did you spend your vacation time in the summer? - In the river. I grew up in the river down here. I guess I started swimming down there

00:33:18.720 - 00:33:32.480

when I was about six years old. In the first place, I had to, my sister's about five years older than I. So by the time she finished high school in 1934,

00:33:32.480 - 00:33:44.400

and she went away for school, so I was more or less here by myself. And the summers, when I was younger, after mother had started to work,

00:33:44.400 - 00:33:58.320

my aunt still lived next, my aunt lived next door, and she had a hammock that my uncle used to, on Sunday afternoons, would sit in and read the paper.

00:33:58.320 - 00:34:06.760

But in the weekdays, she'd let me in the summertime go up and hook up that hammock. And I sailed the seven seas in that hammock.

00:34:06.760 - 00:34:22.240

We'd come in terrible storms and rock the thing. And then my aunt would put out bowls of fruit, some fruit, I'm sure, to keep me from coming in the house. But anyway, she'd put it out.

00:34:22.240 - 00:34:31.520

So that fruit became my plucking the fruit from the fruit trees as I sailed across the seas and encountered these storms. And sometimes we'd capsize.

00:34:31.520 - 00:34:45.320

But other than that, then it was time to go swimming. By two or three o'clock, it was time to go swimming. And some children had to have, had to take naps.

00:34:45.320 - 00:34:55.120

But I never did. I don't think I ever did. So, but we'd wait till everyone goes through, then some parent would take us down to the river.

00:34:55.120 - 00:35:05.160

And I suppose by the time we were 10 or 12, or that old, we were going by ourselves because we had learned to swim. - What's the name of the river?

00:35:05.160 - 00:35:13.880

- Clearfark of the Brazos. And it's not very clear. And right now it's almost dry as a bone. So I don't know why they called it,

00:35:13.880 - 00:35:22.400

I think it was lack of salt, and it was the real reason. But it certainly wasn't clear. But we grew up, and most of all, it was when you get on a rise,

00:35:22.400 - 00:35:31.240

and you'd go up bank and then ride it, ride the rise back down. They had a swing across it, a very big, huge swing. They tied to a pecan tree.

00:35:31.240 - 00:35:42.520

- Do you remember what your swimsuit was like? - First one I ever had, I remember clearly. It was wool. It was brown and green.

00:35:42.520 - 00:35:54.440

And it itched you like crazy. It just scratched like the very devil until you got in the water and then it sagged. So that was the first one, I remember that.

00:35:54.440 - 00:36:05.240

At the others, I don't remember. Only other, when I was about in the eighth or ninth grade, we went to California. My mother and a friend of mine,

00:36:05.240 - 00:36:19.680

it was 1938, I think, and I bought a rubber bathing suit. I don't know why I bought a rubber bathing suit, but I did. And it was white.

00:36:19.680 - 00:36:29.120

And we stopped in Phoenix, spent the night, and they had a motel, and we went swimming in it. And it was wet, so I rolled it up and left it out and put it in the back of the car.

00:36:29.120 - 00:36:39.920

The sun melted it, and by the time I got to California, it was stuck together. (laughing) It was in the spring of the year

00:36:39.920 - 00:36:49.440

that on the Saturday we'd go swimming. Usually, you'd have a watermelon or something afterwards. They would come back and sit. And before you got out of your bathing suit,

00:36:49.440 - 00:37:02.080

you ate the watermelon, and then you'd wash off. - When you finished high school, did you know what you wanted to do? And what was that?

00:37:02.080 - 00:37:12.840

- Not really. I was interested in speech and drama, but I didn't really know. - Had your family decided on a school

00:37:12.840 - 00:37:23.280

that you would attend, a college? - Well, the first year, I had an aunt who lived in Dallas. Well, no, she didn't. She was part of the town.

00:37:23.280 - 00:37:36.240

And she was a Methodist missionary, and she wanted everybody to go to SMU. So I did, but not very successfully. So I transferred the next year to,

00:37:36.240 - 00:37:48.080

it was called Texas State College for Women in those days, but now it's called Texas Women's University. - How did your mom and dad feel about your leaving home to go to SMU?

00:37:48.080 - 00:37:56.880

- All right, I guess. - Do you remember where you lived when you got to SMU? - In a dorm. - Did you know other students?

00:37:56.880 - 00:38:07.040

- Yes, but not from around here. Most of them from Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, and places like that. There were some students that were from Dallas

00:38:07.040 - 00:38:20.060

that lived not on campus. - When you entered SMU, what did you plan to study? What did you want to be? - I don't think I, I was only 17,

00:38:20.060 - 00:38:32.000

and I don't think I really had any, other than drama, I was interested in that. - At SMU, did you take any drama classes? - Only just standard freshman courses that were required.

00:38:32.000 - 00:38:49.520

- And then why did you decide to change schools? - I don't know. Coming from a small town, it was like a fish out of water, and I just wasn't very happy there.

00:38:49.520 - 00:39:02.460

So I transferred to TSCW. - And when you went to-- - And I was young, and I don't think I really knew how to study or how to plan or anything like that.

00:39:02.460 - 00:39:15.400

That was about a year younger than the go to school men. And probably wasn't as qualified coming from a smaller school as I should have been. - So the courses were a little bit harder?

00:39:15.400 - 00:39:24.600

- Yes. - Yes. - When you got to TWU, where did you live? - In a dorm, in the dorms. - Did you, at that point, know some other students

00:39:24.600 - 00:39:32.920

when you arrived? - Not really. I knew there was one girl from Stanford that was in the same dormitory that I was in,

00:39:32.920 - 00:39:44.400

but I didn't know any. But that never been a problem of the people, not so much, that was never a problem. I think it was just the first year of school

00:39:44.400 - 00:40:02.720

and not knowing what was required or what you needed to do. - Describe what you did at TWU, as far as your classes. What were you interested in?

00:40:02.720 - 00:40:16.640

- Speech, by then I knew what I was taking. And so I think the first year I was there, I had stagecraft where we built all the scenery for the place that they had.

00:40:16.640 - 00:40:27.840

And you know, that's been a long time ago. - Do you remember being in these places? - Oh yes, oh yes. You were in place and they'd have a Christmas pageant too

00:40:27.840 - 00:40:42.200

that we participated in, Dr. Hubbard had written it. We were in, then they would have about two or three plays a year. And I think the first one played,

00:40:42.200 - 00:40:50.880

I can't even remember what it was. It was by Sororian. And I had a lead in that, and that was the first thing that I had.

00:40:50.880 - 00:41:02.280

Unfortunately, because I was tall, I got the men's parts, because in those times they didn't have the men on campus. I think they do now.

00:41:02.280 - 00:41:19.360

I think the other people participate, but they didn't have. And we'd have voice and diction and oral interpretation, debate, the whole nine yards. And then we had one course called correction,

00:41:19.360 - 00:41:30.200

but in those days, it was speech correction and the problems of speech, which was one of the hardest courses there was. - It's okay, I'll hold it.

00:41:30.200 - 00:41:38.120

It's okay to change. Life, Sororians. - Beg your pardon? - Time in your life, the play that you were in.

00:41:38.120 - 00:41:47.540

- What play were you in? Was it the time? - Oh. - When you were in college studying speech, what did that do to your time to study other things?

00:41:47.540 - 00:42:04.640

How did that affect your studying? - I don't think it did too much, because when I was going to school down there, you couldn't stay out at night.

00:42:04.640 - 00:42:13.160

You could go to the library, or if you were working on a play that's in production, then you could go. But other than that, you had to be in the dormitory

00:42:13.160 - 00:42:27.880

and lights out by 10 o'clock. So you were there, and you were supposed to be in your rooms, not in somebody else's room. So it was a whole different thing.

00:42:27.880 - 00:42:42.220

Wednesday was the only time that you could get Wednesdays and Saturdays, and otherwise you were in at 10 o'clock. But when you got to be an upperclassman and were working on plays,

00:42:42.220 - 00:42:58.020

and you got to stay out a little bit longer. But you had to go from the theater back to your dorm. So you were more or less in your dorm, so you could study.

00:42:58.020 - 00:43:07.700

- Did you continue playing that musical instrument? - No. - No. - I have to tell you something about that. I forgot.

00:43:07.700 - 00:43:19.360

One day we were getting ready to march, and I was late, and I was running with the trombone up to meet at the school to get in formation, and I fell down and bent the slide.

00:43:19.360 - 00:43:31.420

(laughing) There was another boy who had just begun playing, and they loaned me his, because I knew the music, and he didn't, he'd just started.

00:43:31.420 - 00:43:39.900

But I finally, I think that got him. But I wasn't that good a musician. - Didn't your dad buy you a new trombone? - Yes, we got a new trombone.

00:43:40.740 - 00:43:46.300

- But then when you went away to college, you didn't take it with you? - No, no, no. - Okay.

00:43:46.300 - 00:44:03.300

What were your social activities while you were in TWU? - Well, now you have to remember that when I got there, it was 1940, 41 at TSW. And then the first year I was there was Pearl Harbor.

00:44:03.300 - 00:44:12.940

- Can you, do you remember? - Oh, yes. It was after lunch, and I had come back from the dining room and we were in the room, and I had the radio on

00:44:12.940 - 00:44:23.580

and heard it, of the bombing. Didn't know what it meant. Then we went on to wartime, which made us everybody get up early,

00:44:23.580 - 00:44:34.660

and had to walk across the campus with flashlights. But, and I remember the first, those first three or four months of the war were so discouraging.

00:44:34.660 - 00:44:49.100

When everything was falling, you didn't know what was happening. And Manila fell, Baton fell, and Corregidor fell. And it was, I remember thinking

00:44:49.100 - 00:45:02.940

that we weren't doing so well. - Do you remember of the boys that were at your school, how that affected them? - Most of them were in the service.

00:45:02.940 - 00:45:16.900

Most of the, most of our, most of the boys that I grew up with went into the service. Some of them went to, one boy, man was in the service was in the South Pacific

00:45:16.900 - 00:45:33.420

for five years and never got back. My sister's husband was, first, her first husband was an engineer on a B-24, and he was on the Boetzi oil raid,

00:45:33.420 - 00:45:42.420

and his plane went down and he was killed in action. And that was in '43. I think, I can't remember the exact date, was in the summer of '43.

00:45:42.420 - 00:45:59.340

And I had a cousin who was a doctor, and he was with the, I think the Texas 36th, or I don't remember which one he was with. He was with the Texas National Guard, and he went in.

00:45:59.340 - 00:46:15.540

And he was killed at Palermo, and was on the beach, was trapped in the... So I think most everybody was affected one way or the other. You knew people.

00:46:15.540 - 00:46:24.900

You didn't know sometimes where they were, or heard you could hear where they were, but not till after the war. - And as far as affecting everyone,

00:46:24.900 - 00:46:39.460

as far as material things or food? - Oh, yes, the rationing. Tires were rationed, gas was rationed, clothes were rationed, shoes, you got one coupon for shoes,

00:46:39.460 - 00:46:51.220

and I blew it. (laughs) I bought a pair of green suede sling pumps, which was the biggest mistake of my life, because my heels will not keep the sling pump on.

00:46:51.220 - 00:47:09.460

So I blew that ration card. But sugar, cars, everything, meat, food, everything was rationed, and had the cars. I suppose I wasn't so as much concerned about it

00:47:09.460 - 00:47:24.820

'cause I was in school as mother and them were. - Do you remember, Mary, the attitude of the people? - Well, the attitude, everybody was supportive. Everybody wanted to do what they could.

00:47:24.820 - 00:47:33.740

I think it scared us a little bit when what happened right after Pearl Harbor in those first three months. And I think that had a lot to do with it.

00:47:33.740 - 00:47:43.660

And I hope to heaven our country never gets in the situation we were at the beginning of that war, when we were a little bit prepared because they'd started the draft,

00:47:43.660 - 00:47:56.340

but there was a shortage of everything. I hope we never get in that position again. Preparedness. - Do you remember the first airplane you ever saw?

00:47:56.340 - 00:48:11.060

- I don't remember the first, I don't know whether I saw one before. Lindbergh came by and landed in Amalie at one time. But when I was about nine or 10 years old,

00:48:11.060 - 00:48:22.060

a pilot came by and landed in a field right down below the hill, outskirts, and Dad took me down and let me go up. And that was the first time I went up.

00:48:22.060 - 00:48:30.260

And I'll never forget it. He only went up and circled around and came back in and landed. But I was amazed.

00:48:30.260 - 00:48:37.220

I got to sit in the front seat. I think it was, I had four passenger maybe, and he was taking people up for rides. I think it was $5.

00:48:37.220 - 00:48:44.980

And-- - Did your dad go up? - No, he just let me go up. - Do you remember how your mother felt about--

00:48:44.980 - 00:48:55.340

- I don't know, Mother knew. But I don't think it would have hurt her because when I first soloed up at Stanford, the first thing I did was fly down to Luters.

00:48:55.340 - 00:49:06.420

And Mother came out the house with the cup towel waving in the air. So I guess, I guess if they worried, they didn't ever say anything about it.

00:49:06.420 - 00:49:17.860

- Do you think that first ride is what gave you a love and a desire for flying, or was it later on? - I really don't know. I remember Lindbergh.

00:49:17.860 - 00:49:29.140

And my aunt had a Victrola, the kind that you turn and you put the needle down. And what it was, I don't know, except that it had to do with Lindbergh's

00:49:29.140 - 00:49:40.780

Crossing of the Atlantic. It was a record. And the song, I could, I loved the song, the music. I didn't know it was years later,

00:49:40.780 - 00:49:51.860

it was the first national anthem. But that song stayed with me, either memory, and the fact that Lindbergh had flown across it. I played that over and over and over.

00:49:51.860 - 00:50:05.980

And then I went up and flew that first time, and I remembered how neat and orderly everything looked. And impressed with it. I never was afraid of it or anything like that.

00:50:05.980 - 00:50:13.940

- Did your family go down to Abilene to see Lindbergh? - I don't know, I don't remember that. I just know that he did come, and I don't remember whether anyone went,

00:50:13.940 - 00:50:30.060

and I'm not even sure what year it was. - And when was the next time you went up in an airplane? - I flew, well, I flew to New York, but I may have flown some other places too.

00:50:30.060 - 00:50:40.740

But that was commercial, not-- - Right. During the time you were at TWU, then did you decide to go someplace else?

00:50:40.740 - 00:50:56.700

And at what age or at what year was that? - Oh, about my sophomore, I'm gonna backtrack just a little bit. Because when I was in SMU,

00:50:56.700 - 00:51:10.780

there was a girl who was in my biology lecture class that always came in right at the very end, just at the beginning, all excited and in her huff. And I could turn around and talk to her,

00:51:10.780 - 00:51:20.700

and she had been out flying. And she was real excited about it. And I got excited about it. And I'm gonna have to tell you the man's name.

00:51:20.700 - 00:51:32.660

Well, I can't think of it, I guess I won't. Long Necker. His name was Long Necker, and he lived on Luffers Lane. That was his, he introduced himself that way.

00:51:32.660 - 00:51:44.740

That has nothing to do with anything. But I've often wondered who that girl was, because she was in SMU, and this is 1940, maybe '41, no, '40, '41.

00:51:44.740 - 00:51:57.540

And I wonder if she went into the WASP. I don't know who she was. I've often wondered about her. But after I talked to her,

00:51:57.540 - 00:52:12.980

I came home that summer, or sometime, and asked my father if I could, maybe could I take flying lessons? And he wasn't particularly interested in it at the time.

00:52:12.980 - 00:52:24.020

But, and then I was going on to school, changing classes, going down over to Denton. And the next year, he asked me, he said, "Are you still interested in flying?"

00:52:24.020 - 00:52:34.740

Because they'd started a primary school up at Stanford, and I guess he began to see the planes flying over. And I said, "Yes." So that next summer, he took me up to the airport,

00:52:34.740 - 00:52:47.060

and he'd sit there on the ground while I went up to, I soloed, and I don't know how many hours I had, probably about 10 or something. And then when I went to GWU, he went down there with me

00:52:47.060 - 00:53:01.500

to try to find some place where I could fly. And I found a little airport out north of town. And the man later was doing, teaching, giving the naval pilots the first introduction,

00:53:01.500 - 00:53:15.520

like a free flight and all of that, that went with that. And they had a naval, at North Texas, they had some of the pre-naval flights there. So we, I started flying down there,

00:53:15.520 - 00:53:27.740

and I flew there through for about two years, until I accumulated enough hours to get into the West. - When the school came into Stanford, was that a primary school for cadets?

00:53:27.740 - 00:53:34.380

- Yes, primary. - And then you would use the same airfield? - No, no, no. - Okay.

00:53:34.380 - 00:53:44.860

- You would use an airfield, it wasn't even, if you could call it that, it was in a junction of two roads, where one road went to North to Haskell,

00:53:44.860 - 00:53:56.520

and the other turned and went to Northwest to Aspermont, and there was a Y in there, and at the bottom of it was a drop-off, and they had one little runway.

00:53:56.520 - 00:54:10.780

And it was, of course, just pasture, more or less. And one plane, and the instructor was from the primary school, and he was doing it on his off hours. So whenever I flew, it was when they weren't flying.

00:54:10.780 - 00:54:21.500

- Okay, so you started out flying that in a summer-- - In summer of '42. - Okay, and then when you went back to Denton, you continued to fly. - Continued.

00:54:21.500 - 00:54:34.060

- At what point did you decide to go to a different school? - No, I didn't go to a different school after TFW, or TWU, that was the same one, I stayed there.

00:54:34.060 - 00:54:45.340

But are you talking about-- - New York. - Oh, that was after I got out of the WASP. - Oh, was it, oh, okay. Okay, while you were at TWU, then at some point,

00:54:45.340 - 00:55:00.580

did you hear about a training program for women to fly? - I suppose in 1943, we heard about it. I don't know. I'm sure I probably, I don't remember how I heard about it.

00:55:00.580 - 00:55:10.660

- Okay. - Maybe, but-- - Were you a senior at TWU at that point? - Yes, I think so. I don't know.

00:55:10.660 - 00:55:25.260

They didn't even, it didn't really get started until, it was September '42, wasn't it, November? And there wasn't any very much, there may have been publicity, but I don't think often the school was publicized

00:55:25.260 - 00:55:35.140

and I really didn't know about it. Maybe it wasn't until they started flying out of Sweetwater that I found out about it. And that must have been in '43, was it '43?

00:55:35.140 - 00:55:43.460

I think that's when I first heard. - And then once you heard about this school, what did you do about it? Were you interested? - Yes.

00:55:43.460 - 00:55:57.060

We, my father, when I came home, I guess it was during the summer, and my father went with me and we went over to Sweetwater. And-- - Okay, before you went

00:55:57.060 - 00:56:10.220

to Sweetwater, how did you apply for that training? - There wasn't any, I just went out to the airport. There wasn't a school involved in it. I transferred, the college let me transfer

00:56:10.220 - 00:56:27.420

over to North Texas to take some ground school courses that some of the, with some of those naval students. But I stayed at TSCW, I didn't change schools. And then I continued to fly locally on my own

00:56:27.420 - 00:56:40.340

with the, there wasn't any program involved. - But you would go over to the other school to take ground school? - Take one class, and it was general ground school.

00:56:40.340 - 00:56:51.300

- At what point did you, were you interviewed for flight training for the WASP? - When I went over to Sweetwater, Father and I went over to Sweetwater,

00:56:51.300 - 00:57:04.660

and I think Mrs., I'm not sure what her name was, was there at the time, and I did the interview, and then later I was notified that I was accepted to that class.

00:57:04.660 - 00:57:15.340

So I guess if we hadn't gone over there, I wouldn't have been a name on a list. - Right, do you remember having to take a physical? - Oh yes. - Where did you take that?

00:57:15.340 - 00:57:27.580

- At Sweetwater. - At Sweetwater. I'd forgotten you were so close. - It seemed like we had the physical at Sweetwater. I was required to have it there.

00:57:27.580 - 00:57:40.460

- What were your first impressions of Avenger Field? - I don't know. Hustle bustle. - Do you remember the flight line

00:57:40.460 - 00:57:50.460

with all the different airplanes? - Yes, yes. It was all a new world. The first was at the Blue Bonnet Hotel

00:57:50.460 - 00:58:01.700

where they loaded us on the wagon and hauled us out there. - How did your mother feel about your going into-- - She never commented one way or the other.

00:58:01.700 - 00:58:10.460

She never commented. I guess it was acceptable. - Did you know any other girls who were gonna do that? - No, no.

00:58:10.460 - 00:58:20.420

I didn't know any. - Okay, tell me about getting carted out on the wagon. - Well, they took your suitcases and we got on the wagon, cattle wagon.

00:58:20.420 - 00:58:29.780

As I remember, they had seats along the side and down the middle. I don't know how you got our suitcases in there, but we did and got out there.

00:58:29.780 - 00:58:41.580

I remember going in and I think we probably, I don't know how even we got, I don't remember how we got our room assignments, but I'm sure we were already assigned to something.

00:58:41.580 - 00:58:53.580

But there was a class that was graduating right at that time. And I can't remember which class it was. Maybe 43.1, is that what it was?

00:58:53.580 - 00:59:01.940

I don't know, 44.1 maybe. - Was that impressive to you? - We didn't get to see it. One of the girls that happened to be my bay mate

00:59:01.940 - 00:59:13.380

knew a girl who was graduating and she came over in her uniform. But I stayed in the same group of bay all the time that we were there.

00:59:13.380 - 00:59:20.140

We had the same group together. - At that point, the graduating class, were they in the Santiago Blue Uniforms? - Yes, they were.

00:59:20.140 - 00:59:27.180

They were the first class to have them. - Do you remember how impressed you were? - Yes. But it was all new to you at that time.

00:59:27.180 - 00:59:45.980

Everything was new and strange. - Tell me about your bay mates. - I had Betty Pettit and Margaret Parrish and Alberta Paskman and BJ,

00:59:45.980 - 00:59:58.840

can't remember that right now. - Williams? - Yes, I think, no, I don't think it's Williams. I get her maiden name and other name, Overman.

00:59:58.840 - 01:00:11.020

I'm giving the names that I remember at the time. BJ Overman and myself. Was that six? I think it was.

01:00:11.020 - 01:00:21.420

And then we had some other people in the other bays. - Were they from similar type backgrounds? Had they all been to college? Tell us about the difference.

01:00:21.420 - 01:00:32.060

- I don't really know. Some of them, you know, we never did talk about it. There was a girl, Christ, was from Texas. I knew she was from,

01:00:32.060 - 01:00:48.820

and she was a graduate of the University of Texas. And she was in our flight. And I suppose they were. - Describe the barracks where you lived.

01:00:48.820 - 01:01:08.320

- Six steel cots and a little cabinet that couldn't have been more than a foot and a half wide and a foot and a half long, and a mirror in it and a shelf.

01:01:08.320 - 01:01:18.900

I don't know how in the world we ever got our clothes in there. And some people said they had foot lockers, but I don't ever remember any foot locker.

01:01:18.900 - 01:01:40.260

And I don't know how we all got into the bathroom and out. Betty Pettit used to say, "Who belongs to these?" And it's probably mine. But, and I think Parrish was the,

01:01:40.260 - 01:01:57.740

whatever they call it, the leader of the flight. And Christ, I think, was the, whatever, one of the leaders, too. I can't remember all those names anymore.

01:01:57.740 - 01:02:06.020

- Do you know how they were selected to be squadron commander? - No, I'm not really sure. - Describe what a typical day was like.

01:02:06.020 - 01:02:21.540

- Well, the alarm went off, and you got out of bed and climbed into your clothes and got ready and made up the bed if you had the time until you fall out for breakfast.

01:02:21.540 - 01:02:34.500

And usually, if it was in the morning, or it was probably dark some of the time, and you'd march to the flight room, to the room. I guess we washed our faces and combed our hair.

01:02:34.500 - 01:02:45.540

I don't remember. We had those scarves or headgears or whatever. I don't think I did much to my hair or face, either one. Maybe some of them did, I didn't.

01:02:45.540 - 01:02:54.860

I don't think anybody had time. And you'd march to the flight line, or to the breakfast, and eat breakfast, and then come back. And then you had a little time

01:02:54.860 - 01:03:11.140

before it was time to go to ground school or to the flight line. And you know, I just don't remember every detail. I know that we wore our general pants and shorts

01:03:11.140 - 01:03:22.760

and leather jackets to ground school. But I don't remember whether we wore that underneath the zoot suits or not. I just don't remember.

01:03:22.760 - 01:03:35.540

- Could you describe ground school and some of the courses that you took? (laughs) - Well, we had the one I remember,

01:03:35.540 - 01:03:52.300

it was the Morris Code, I remember that. The da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. It drove you crazy. And then we had, I guess we had navigation.

01:03:52.300 - 01:04:04.940

It seemed like we had math. And there was a man, the most patient man I've ever seen in my life, teaching math. And then we had the engines, studying the engines.

01:04:04.940 - 01:04:21.260

And I'm sure we had meteorology, too. That's been a spell. I remember vaguely some of those things, but I don't-- - Do you remember the food?

01:04:21.260 - 01:04:33.860

- I ate it, all of it. Everything they put in front of me. I remember one time they were gonna serve us buffalo. I don't know where they got the stuff, but it was stringy.

01:04:33.860 - 01:04:45.500

I've never had buffalo before. But they did serve it one time. It was stringy. - Describe your first solo flight.

01:04:45.500 - 01:04:53.100

- Oh, well, I remember that 'cause I ground looped. (laughs) It was terrible. I don't know why.

01:04:53.100 - 01:05:04.020

As a matter of fact, I wasn't even with my instructor. It was another man who'd come in. And I came in, I didn't drag a wing. And I guess I turned around

01:05:04.020 - 01:05:11.660

because I wasn't sure where I was when I stopped. And I didn't know where he was. I don't know whether it was the end of the field or where he was.

01:05:11.660 - 01:05:20.980

But it didn't drag a wing, it didn't hurt the plane. And I don't know how it happened. But it was a stearman. - Did you have to meet the board?

01:05:20.980 - 01:05:27.300

- No. Nothing happened. They just put me on. Maybe I didn't go all the way around.

01:05:27.300 - 01:05:35.100

I don't know. I never knew what happened. - Do you remember being frightened? - No.

01:05:35.100 - 01:05:46.980

I just remember being not sure which way was north and which way was south or where he was. How was I gonna get to him? Maybe I'd taxi across the whole field

01:05:46.980 - 01:05:54.380

with planes coming in. It was over an auxiliary. I don't know. I can always remember the dumb things I did.

01:05:54.380 - 01:06:03.340

- And while you were in primary, did some of your class wash out? - Yes. - How did that make you feel?

01:06:03.340 - 01:06:15.900

- There wasn't anyone in my group, in my bay, that washed out. There was one girl who got the measles and had washed back.

01:06:15.900 - 01:06:29.540

Palmer, Marian Palmer, she was in our group. But she washed back to eight and she finished. But our group stayed together through the whole thing. - Do you remember any particular check rides that you took?

01:06:29.540 - 01:06:42.700

- Yes, I remember, gosh, yes. I remember sitting, being fearful of the check rides, especially when you got up into instruments. There was one Captain Mann, I think his name was,

01:06:42.700 - 01:06:53.860

scared the daylights out of you. And you'd sit and wait and see your name listed on it. This was military check rides. And you'd just sweat it out.

01:06:53.860 - 01:07:08.340

And you'd get through and you'd go back. Well, you just barely got under the line. - In the Stearman, what did you enjoy doing in that Stearman?

01:07:08.340 - 01:07:19.180

- I liked the acrobatics. I liked the Stearman. - Do you remember any incidents that happened in the Stearman?

01:07:19.180 - 01:07:30.060

- I don't remember any. I guess they did, but I don't recall any that happened. I know that some of them fell out. I've heard stories of them, but I don't remember

01:07:30.060 - 01:07:48.100

that it was in my class that did. I did, by the time we got to AT-60s, one of my bay mates, the plane caught on fire and she was an instructor and he made her jump.

01:07:48.100 - 01:07:59.180

And she landed out in the cactus and she sat on the parachute and was scared to death of rattlesnakes. - Do you remember her name?

01:07:59.180 - 01:08:12.620

- Her name was Nancy Nordoff then. - Did the instructor also jump? - No, no, he put the plane out, but it was in an AT-6 and the engine was on fire

01:08:12.620 - 01:08:30.260

and he wanted to get her out so he could. He dived in and did something to stop it and came on in. But she had to jump. - Describe what the auxiliary field was all about.

01:08:30.260 - 01:08:41.940

- It was just a big dust bowl. (laughing) It was a field that had nothing on it. I'm sure, and they had a plow to level.

01:08:41.940 - 01:08:55.420

I guess there may have been some grass or something on it. They had a privy outside. And they had one little shack that was, I don't know what it was for.

01:08:55.420 - 01:09:10.900

I guess it was for the instructors. And they had a wind tee, a wind sock, I guess. There would be planes taking on and off. When you think back about it,

01:09:10.900 - 01:09:23.180

it was like a beehive at Avenger. They were coming and going in every direction. The auxiliary was pretty busy too, but it was dirt. And you'd sit and wait.

01:09:23.180 - 01:09:40.100

Either you flew over or you took the cattle wagon over and wait your turn to go up if you were an instructor or wait your turn for a plane if you were soloing. You'd be out there all morning.

01:09:40.100 - 01:09:55.380

It was dirty, but you did a lot of waiting too sometimes. - Right. During your training, did you have some time off and what did you do with that time off?

01:09:55.380 - 01:10:13.500

- We were pretty busy. We went in February, so there was a lot of weather involved. And we'd have to make up a lot of time. And then some of them, we'd go into town

01:10:13.500 - 01:10:29.140

if we got off on Saturday. And there was one movie house and there was one place that I remember was a cafe. It was on what was called the Bankhead Highway.

01:10:29.140 - 01:10:38.620

It was named after Tallulah Bankhead's father 'cause he's the first one that was instrumental in putting the highway all the way across the country. And Highway 80, it was known at that time,

01:10:38.620 - 01:10:50.860

was the Bankhead Highway. And this is called the Bankhead Cafe. And they had steaks, sirloin steaks, huge steaks, and a baked potato and a salad for $2.

01:10:50.860 - 01:11:02.220

And it was good. It was good. And then you could either go up to the Wasp Nest 'cause they had a little place up there

01:11:02.220 - 01:11:11.820

for the Wasps to go, or you'd go to the movies. And by that time, it was time to go back. And some of them would go, and later on in the summer, go out to the lake,

01:11:11.820 - 01:11:21.180

Sweetwater Lake. - Did you have some time off between primary and advanced? - I don't recall ever doing that. We never had any.

01:11:21.180 - 01:11:29.740

Maybe we did have a weekend or something, but not any time off. - So that you were never able to come home instead? - Oh, yes, on some weekends.

01:11:29.740 - 01:11:38.860

I brought a couple of girls home with me. - And how would you get home? Did you have a car? - Dad, no, my father would come and get me

01:11:38.860 - 01:11:47.380

and take us back. - Were your parents concerned about what you were doing? - I don't think, if they did, they never said anything to me about it.

01:11:47.380 - 01:11:57.740

- Okay, when you got out of primary, then you went directly into the AT6. - Yes. - Tell me about the AT6. - What is he doing?

01:11:58.780 - 01:12:04.820

I thought they're crazy. They don't know what they're doing. What in the world is this man doing? I didn't know.

01:12:04.820 - 01:12:10.060

I thought, I'll never learn all of this. What is he doing? You were sitting in the back seat. It was the orientation right.

01:12:10.060 - 01:12:23.620

And of course, going from a stearman that had very little instruments and no starter and no nothing, no gears or anything, it was just mind-boggling when the man got into it

01:12:23.620 - 01:12:30.740

and says, "This is what you're gonna do." I said, "What's he doing? "What is he doing? "I don't know."

01:12:30.740 - 01:12:37.740

But you gradually learned and I liked the AT6. It was a beautiful plane. It was real nice. It was good.

01:12:37.740 - 01:12:43.620

It was a good plane. - Tell me about night flying. - I love night flying. I used to really enjoy it.

01:12:43.620 - 01:12:53.580

It was always so peaceful up there. I enjoyed seeing the fire come out of the side of the, you know, the exhaust. I really enjoyed night flying.

01:12:53.580 - 01:13:06.580

And you'd go down as far, I think, to Weatherford or somewhere like that or go up toward Lubbock on cross-countries. And for some reason, I was behind in some of my flying,

01:13:06.580 - 01:13:14.580

so I got to take some of it. The ex-Philly then was night flying and I really enjoyed the night flying. It was something about taking off at,

01:13:14.580 - 01:13:25.420

the taking off of the night. I really liked the night flying. - And when you finished advanced and then went into instruments,

01:13:25.420 - 01:13:33.460

how did you finish? - Well, no, instruments, I went right along, I think, in advanced, or maybe, I'm not sure. We had the link.

01:13:33.460 - 01:13:44.940

We had link. - But then once you finished in the AT-6, then did you go to the BT-13 for instruments? - Yes.

01:13:44.940 - 01:13:55.140

We had, no, well, no. We had transition. We went from the PT, the stearman, to the AT-6 for transition until we learned to fly.

01:13:55.140 - 01:14:07.220

Then we went back to the BT-13 for instruments. And that's what we flew out of the, did the range out of Abilene, Abilene Tower. Come to find out, the man that was in the Abilene Tower,

01:14:07.220 - 01:14:16.300

or the range, was a former teacher that had been in Luters. And he was working with the Air Force. That was real funny.

01:14:16.300 - 01:14:29.620

I didn't know that until years later, found out. But, I tell you, it's amazing. We got into where we got, where we got with that.

01:14:29.620 - 01:14:48.380

I'm sure a lot of those girls, I never had to let down or take off in weather. And working that radio range was frustrating, too. I'd usually circle over the cone of silence

01:14:48.380 - 01:15:04.260

and never know what quadrant I was in. But, I never really did have to do the any flying on instruments. Other than train for it, we did get our commercial license

01:15:04.260 - 01:15:17.820

and got instrument ratings at the end. - And describe what being under the hood means. - You had a buddy, buddy ride, a buddy partner. And someone sat in the front,

01:15:17.820 - 01:15:26.220

and they usually took off and landed, and would watch out. And they would take and place you somewhere in the area. And you,

01:15:26.220 - 01:15:41.820

there is a range of the expression on the beam. The beam was actually a combination of the A, the sounds, the de da and the da de. It's the A and the B, A, where they would come together.

01:15:41.820 - 01:15:51.860

And that would make a solid sound. And that was what you were supposed to try to find. The beam, in order to get on it, to follow it to the cone of silence.

01:15:51.860 - 01:16:04.980

And then there was a let down procedure from that on. But being under the beam, being under the hood, you didn't know where you were. You had to be completely dependent on your instruments.

01:16:04.980 - 01:16:13.940

And you would try, they would put you someplace, and you were going a certain direction, so you'd have to find the beam. And sometimes if you were too close in,

01:16:13.940 - 01:16:24.100

you would turn too much and you'd cross over into another quadrant. You didn't know which quadrant you were in. But it was very frustrating.

01:16:24.100 - 01:16:33.260

Also, often would just beep and see sometimes, but I didn't. - Once you finished instruments, then you went back into the 86.

01:16:33.260 - 01:16:43.660

- For cross country. - Tell me about anything special that might have happened on the cross country. - I had a runway pop on my cross country going into Yuma.

01:16:44.660 - 01:17:01.060

But I was in, coming into land and got in okay, no problem. And it was fixed and went on. But nothing unforeseen happened.

01:17:01.060 - 01:17:15.700

- While you were at Avenger, were there any trainees killed? - Yes. I think they had a midair between a primary trainer and I don't know if it was a BT-13 or AT-6, I'm not sure.

01:17:15.700 - 01:17:27.700

And I can't remember exactly when that was. I was surprised to know, because they didn't tell us very much and they got us up in the air immediately.

01:17:27.700 - 01:17:35.300

They didn't let us sit on the ground or anything like that. We had to get back up. But you heard about something, but you didn't know too much about what was going on.

01:17:35.300 - 01:17:44.420

- While you were in training, were you aware of what the WASP were doing who had graduated? - Not really.

01:17:44.420 - 01:17:59.860

Sometimes they would come back toward the end of our, toward the end of the time that we were at Sweetwater. Some of the girls were coming back for instrument, advanced instrument.

01:17:59.860 - 01:18:10.260

I never knew what, but they were taking instrument courses again. They were coming back. But that was only about a month or two before we left.

01:18:10.260 - 01:18:23.300

And I'm not sure who, what it was that they were doing. - While you were in training, what were your expectations for when you graduated? Had they told you what to expect?

01:18:23.300 - 01:18:33.940

- No, not really. We knew that some of the girls were ferrying, but that's about all we knew. We didn't know if they were going into training commands

01:18:33.940 - 01:18:42.540

or anything like that. - Do you remember-- - We assumed that was what we were going to do, I guess. - Do you remember before you went in even,

01:18:42.540 - 01:18:55.500

them telling you the purpose for which this school was created for women? - Yes, to release male pilots for service and to make contributions.

01:18:55.500 - 01:19:05.620

We've always thought that. I never thought that we were going to fly combat or anything like that. That was what I thought it was supposed to be,

01:19:05.620 - 01:19:14.700

to release them. - While you were in training, there were classes that graduated. Describe one of those graduations.

01:19:14.700 - 01:19:29.660

- Well, you usually had songs that you sang, the songs that you would sing to the graduating class. And then sometimes, I was there when General Arnold and all of the generals came,

01:19:29.660 - 01:19:43.540

and we marched in that review. He reviewed us as we marched. But we would sing these songs to the graduating class, and they were usually to some other song.

01:19:43.540 - 01:19:53.980

They would take off some other songs, but the words would be changed. And everybody worked hard to sing it. And they were fun.

01:19:53.980 - 01:20:04.180

It was fun. Sometimes it would be on the parade ground, sometimes it'd be in the auditorium or the gym. - What was the most frightened thing

01:20:04.180 - 01:20:22.620

that ever happened to you? Anything stand out? - I guess it's when I was, it was when I was at Moorfield,

01:20:22.620 - 01:20:36.060

and we were fearing some planes, and they had taken us up to Oklahoma City or someplace. And I don't even know what field it was where we went. It was outside of Oklahoma City.

01:20:36.060 - 01:20:41.820

We got there on a weekend, and there were no rooms, and we stayed in private homes. And then how we got together,

01:20:41.820 - 01:20:48.780

how we got out to the airport, the field we were going to, I have no idea, I don't remember. But somehow we got out to this field.

01:20:48.780 - 01:21:04.860

I think it was north of Oklahoma City. And we had PT-13, PT-19. '17s. And the field was closed.

01:21:04.860 - 01:21:13.700

And I can't remember whether they just said, "You take this one, you take that one, "you take this one," or what. I'm sure they had specified,

01:21:13.700 - 01:21:20.620

but I didn't know that. But it was in November, the latter part of November, and it was bitter cold.

01:21:20.620 - 01:21:29.540

A cold front had come through. And it was about seven degrees on the ground. And we got out there, and these were open cockpits,

01:21:29.540 - 01:21:37.460

and although we had winter flying suits, the ships had not been pre-flighted, we had to warm 'em up. We had to sit on the ground,

01:21:37.460 - 01:21:46.780

and must've had an hour, an hour and a half, trying to get the oil pressure up enough to take off. And then we took off, and this plane wouldn't go.

01:21:46.780 - 01:21:55.940

It just, it'd go, but not fast. And we'd find a circle, and we'd keep going, and they kept getting ahead of me, and I kept trying to go faster,

01:21:55.940 - 01:22:05.820

and I kept putting the nose down, and trying to gain a little speed. When I did, one wing would go down. And so I'd have to let it up,

01:22:05.820 - 01:22:14.140

and then I'd try it again. And I did it all the way, and finally it stopped, and it just sailed along fine,

01:22:14.140 - 01:22:22.620

until I started letting down to go into Dodge City, and it started doing it again. I never did know what was wrong with the thing. I wrote it up,

01:22:22.620 - 01:22:31.280

but I didn't know it was going to the dump anyway. - Were you delivering it to Dodge City? - No. - So you just left it? - Yeah.

01:22:31.280 - 01:22:37.940

And it was terribly cold, but going over those, there wasn't a place. I thought, here I am, got the parachute on, on this one, it's, look down on the ground,

01:22:37.940 - 01:22:45.500

and nothing but these auroras, and everything, rough country, and I thought, I couldn't get out of here if I wanted to. (both laughing)

01:22:45.500 - 01:22:52.220

But I wasn't really frightened. - She's gonna change the film. - Okay, gosh, you're using up a lot of film on me. - No, it's fine, it's fine.

01:22:52.220 - 01:23:02.180

- Okay, at some point when you were in training, did you receive some new uniforms? - Not until we graduated. - That's what I mean.

01:23:02.180 - 01:23:17.300

- Yes, at graduation, we received our new uniforms. - Tell me about those. - They were, I believe we got a winter and a summer uniform. Winter, Santiago Blue, we had the jacket,

01:23:18.160 - 01:23:40.720

and the skirt, and then we had flying suits, both summer and winter, with Eisenhower jackets, sort of, and blue shirts and black ties, and I guess, I don't remember,

01:23:40.720 - 01:23:51.200

they gave us the shirts, or we bought the shirts, I'm not sure about that, and we had shoes and bag, a shoe and a bag and an overcoat. - Do you remember how you felt

01:23:51.200 - 01:24:04.940

when you put that uniform on? - Yes, really proud, and all of the attachments, and the wings, especially after we received them. - Tell me about your graduation.

01:24:04.940 - 01:24:19.860

- It was held inside, I think, it wasn't outside, it was held inside. I don't think there was anyone special that came to that one. - Was Miss Cochran there?

01:24:19.860 - 01:24:31.140

- I believe she was. I believe she was. - How about your parents? - I was thinking of guests, like the generals that came.

01:24:31.140 - 01:24:43.920

Was that, were yours, was he there for your, okay. - How about your parents? - They came, my mother and father, and my uncle, who lived next door, came.

01:24:43.920 - 01:24:53.820

And he had been sick, very ill. He died while I was in the Warfield. But he'd been part of the family, close family. But he got to come, too.

01:24:53.820 - 01:25:09.880

- Even before your graduation, at one point, when did you hear that the WASPs were going to be deactivated, and how did you feel? - I don't remember hearing about it

01:25:09.880 - 01:25:19.460

while we were in training. But surely it must have been mentioned, but we finished in September. I think, I'm not very clear on it.

01:25:19.460 - 01:25:34.880

But I went off to Warfield, thinking that we'd continue. It must have happened while we were down there. But I'm sure they must have known before that, but I don't remember knowing about it.

01:25:34.880 - 01:25:45.160

- Before you graduated, did they ask you for your choices about where to be stationed? - Where to be stationed, and what kind of aircraft you'd prefer.

01:25:45.160 - 01:25:54.880

- And what was your choice? - Texas, and I wanted to have a twin engine, or more of a multi-engine, but I didn't. So I got Texas. (laughs)

01:25:54.880 - 01:26:08.020

- When you graduated, did you have some time off? - Yes, we did, but I don't recall how long. - Do you remember coming home and seeing your friends, and were you wearing your uniform?

01:26:08.020 - 01:26:26.320

Or going to church and having your uniform on? - No, because I did not come home after I graduated, other than, I guess I came home when I graduated, and had the time off.

01:26:26.320 - 01:26:37.120

But everybody's gone. This is war. Most of my generation were gone. - How did you get down to Moorfield?

01:26:37.120 - 01:26:45.640

- I'm not sure. I think I went by bus. I'm not sure how I got there. Maybe I went by train.

01:26:45.640 - 01:26:55.320

I don't really remember. - When you got to Moorfield, to whom did you report? - To the commanding officer. - Were there other WASPs already stationed there?

01:26:55.320 - 01:27:02.840

- Yes, there were. But there were five of us that were coming in from my flight. - Where did you live? - We lived in a barracks.

01:27:02.840 - 01:27:13.760

It had once been a nurse's quarters, but it had been turned over to the WASP. And I don't know, there were about 10 or 12 of them. But it was difficult to say,

01:27:13.760 - 01:27:26.400

because some of them would be out. Some of them were taking trips, ferrying, I guess, to some of these planes. And it was difficult to know just who was there and when.

01:27:26.400 - 01:27:33.880

But-- - What was your primary assignment? - I told targets. - Oh, target.

01:27:33.880 - 01:27:45.720

Describe a typical mission that you would take, from the time you graduated. - I can remember listening to that, that there's a little place to get donuts or something

01:27:45.720 - 01:27:55.160

while we were waiting for the weather to clear. - Okay. And when the weather would clear, describe a mission. - All right, you would have to go up first

01:27:55.160 - 01:28:08.120

to get in position. And so you'd go out and check in. And then the instructor for the aerial gunnery would have his group,

01:28:08.120 - 01:28:17.900

and there'd be about, I guess, four or five of them. I don't remember now exactly how many. And I'm sure they probably had a discussion of what they were going to do before they came up.

01:28:17.900 - 01:28:30.720

But you'd take off and you'd circle, go to a certain area and circle it, circle that. When you go up, you'd have to slow the plane down. And there was an enlisted man in the back.

01:28:30.720 - 01:28:42.320

And there was a place, area that they let the target out. And the target was on a chain, I guess. Not sure how long it was, quite long. But the target was about 20 feet long,

01:28:42.320 - 01:28:53.120

about two or three feet wide. And it was rolled up and you let it out. Well, you'd have to slow the plane down in order to let the target out.

01:28:53.120 - 01:29:02.960

And then you'd circle and wait until they came. And once in a while, you'd give them a call, so you'd tell them where you were.

01:29:02.960 - 01:29:08.900

And then they would finally, 'cause when they finally got there, they'd give you a call so you were ready to begin your pattern.

01:29:08.900 - 01:29:16.840

And it was a monotonous, it was. It was a straight line. You flew a straight line, you made a 180 degree turn,

01:29:16.840 - 01:29:24.600

came back, flew it again, made another 100, certainly at the time, depending on their passes. And they would come in,

01:29:24.600 - 01:29:32.640

and they would either make their passes coming in over or coming in under. But your plane was going slower because you were towing that target.

01:29:32.640 - 01:29:47.720

And they'd give you that prop wash. And you'd really bounce around. - And the other airplane would also be an AT-6? - But there would be five or six of them.

01:29:47.720 - 01:30:01.000

And they would come in at like a formation and make passes at the target or whatever, at whichever kind of passes they were making on it. And then that would be one group.

01:30:01.000 - 01:30:11.280

And then we would have to wait until a second group came up. So you'd have to hold up there, too. - In those AT-6s, would there be an instructor?

01:30:11.280 - 01:30:20.160

- Yes, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. There may have been an instructor with them at first. I'm not sure whether they were in there by themselves

01:30:20.160 - 01:30:28.720

or if it was a leader, probably. An instructor with the group, I guess. But I'm not sure. I think there was an instructor with every one of them.

01:30:28.720 - 01:30:38.040

- Were these potential gunners? Who were these students? - These were pilots for pursuits, shooting. And they used camera guns.

01:30:38.040 - 01:30:52.600

And they were aiming at the target. But it was teaching them how to make passes, I guess, for pursuit pilots. - Were you allowed to date those students?

01:30:52.600 - 01:31:04.400

- We never saw them. They used to stand in the door. We had to walk past them, go into the flight line. And they'd holler out, "This is 200 circling Edinburgh."

01:31:04.400 - 01:31:18.520

And mock us as we'd go down the street. - What was your social life like at Moore? - Well, mostly, there was a -- You could go across.

01:31:18.520 - 01:31:30.400

It was close to the border. It was on the border down at Mission. So you could go across the river into Nogales, I think was the name of the town.

01:31:30.400 - 01:31:45.440

And it was interesting. You could buy perfume, cigarettes, and various things without tax, and bring it back across. They had an officers' club.

01:31:45.440 - 01:32:01.200

But I tell you, if you were doing flying targets, flying targets on the afternoon, by the time you got back in -- Because you'd have to fly over to an auxiliary --

01:32:01.200 - 01:32:14.800

Once you finished the group, you'd have to go to an auxiliary field, fly over about 200 feet, drop the target, then land and pick up the target, roll it up,

01:32:14.800 - 01:32:27.080

then take off and fly back to the main field. And by the time you got back, everything was closed. And by the time you got your parachute off and filled out everything, it was late.

01:32:27.080 - 01:32:41.120

So I'd usually end up going to the officers' club. The only thing they had was grilled cheese sandwiches. - During the time you were towing targets, and there would be five or six airplanes

01:32:41.120 - 01:32:49.960

that were zooming in on that target, was there ever a time that you were frightened with those airplanes? - No, except for the prop wash.

01:32:49.960 - 01:32:57.840

Sometimes I felt like their antenna drugged the bottom of the plane, but I'm sure it didn't. But it was just the prop wash. I never did get very concerned.

01:32:57.840 - 01:33:05.320

I really didn't. - Okay. While you were at Moore, did you do other assignments other than towing targets?

01:33:05.320 - 01:33:16.720

- We'd be assigned to take PTs. There were a lot of primary schools, and I suppose that they were beginning to close. Or they were transferring planes

01:33:16.720 - 01:33:31.440

from one primary school to the other. And so we would be sent usually in groups, sometimes five, sometimes 15 different amounts of people you'd go in a group.

01:33:31.440 - 01:33:43.960

And they could be PT-17s or PT-19s, either one, the stearman or the fairchild. And we'd fly, usually we'd have to go someplace in order to pick the planes up.

01:33:43.960 - 01:33:55.200

And I often thought it was kind of dumb to take us from the valley all the way clear up to Oklahoma to fly a plane two hours from around there to Dodge City, Kansas.

01:33:55.200 - 01:34:03.320

I don't know why. - Would this group be a mixed group? - Yes, men and women. One time on that particular flight

01:34:03.320 - 01:34:14.360

when we went to Dodge City, we were coming back and we had to take the train all the way back down to the middle of, down to Moorfield, which is in the valley.

01:34:14.360 - 01:34:22.960

And when we got into Kansas City, we took the train out of Dodge City over to Kansas City, but evidently we had to change depots. And we got in there at night

01:34:22.960 - 01:34:32.320

and there wasn't any hotel rooms. We finally, the fellow in charge finally found a hotel room. Hotel. It wasn't a hotel.

01:34:32.320 - 01:34:43.520

It was a walk-up. You've seen those pictures of those stairs that go up between buildings that says 50 cents and up. That's what it was.

01:34:43.520 - 01:34:57.240

And we got upstairs and there was a rope that you hung out the window for a fire escape. And I did not know till later, and there was the girl that was in charge of the WASP

01:34:57.240 - 01:35:07.680

was with us on that trip. And she didn't tell me that I saw her at the meeting when they had the monument dedication. That's the first time I'd seen her since then.

01:35:07.680 - 01:35:22.240

And she told me that two of the boys sat outside our door all night long. But that was a strange, that was strange. Tell me about the girl who was in charge.

01:35:22.240 - 01:35:31.800

Do you know why she was selected? No. She was Alice, Alice Ruth, I think her name was. She was very calm.

01:35:31.800 - 01:35:41.680

She was an older person, older, seemed older. It seemed older to me. She probably wasn't that much older. She was probably a very dependable person.

01:35:41.680 - 01:35:51.880

And she was already there when you arrived? And she looked after us, too. Was there anything else interesting that happened while you were at Moore

01:35:51.880 - 01:36:04.880

that you'd like to tell us about? We were there for just about four months, I guess. Oh, there was an air crash. I think some of the boys that had gone over to Matagorda

01:36:04.880 - 01:36:19.480

had a mid-air and crashed out in the gulf. They had been over to Matagorda Island where they were doing some more. And some of them, they weren't killed, I don't think,

01:36:19.480 - 01:36:27.120

but they crashed. Maybe one of them, the boys that was in the instrument in our group. But I think they parachuted.

01:36:27.120 - 01:36:38.400

I don't think that they were hurt. But that's the only thing that I remember of ever happening. But there was a mid-air then, too. So at some time while you were at Moore,

01:36:38.400 - 01:36:50.200

you did learn the WASP would be deactivated. How did you feel about that? What a waste. What a waste.

01:36:50.200 - 01:37:02.640

All the money that they put in, the time they put in on us, it seemed like it was kind of wasteful. But I don't know. I was sad, I guess.

01:37:02.640 - 01:37:15.800

Disappointed. When the WASP program was disbanded, tell me your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP program itself.

01:37:15.800 - 01:37:25.760

Well, I didn't know that much about Jacqueline Cochran. I think she was a go-getter, and she probably was very determined. I didn't have any feelings about her.

01:37:25.760 - 01:37:39.240

One way or the other, I liked her, I suppose. And I thought the program was a good program. I think it was well done. I think that they certainly took a bunch of people

01:37:39.240 - 01:37:52.200

that didn't have very much training experience and made good pilots out of them, I think. But even at that, the WASP had more training experience going in than the male cadets when they went in.

01:37:52.200 - 01:38:01.120

There was a discrepancy, right? Yes. Well, I suppose so. I guess that they went in cold without any experience

01:38:01.120 - 01:38:07.920

whatsoever. They did have some. I thought the program was good. I thought they did a good job of it.

01:38:07.920 - 01:38:18.720

When it was deactivated, did the air base do something special for the WASP? That I recall. It came and we left the day it came.

01:38:18.720 - 01:38:33.800

No, well, we did get our-- we got our instrument ratings and we took a test or something, got our instrument ratings. And this was a commercial license that we were doing. We got that.

01:38:33.800 - 01:38:52.400

Other than, no, we just left. Then where did you go? I rode with one girl up as far as Dallas. She was going north somewheres.

01:38:52.400 - 01:39:03.400

And there was a group of us and she had a car, so we rode up there. And then I took the train home to Abilene. And when you got home, then what did you do?

01:39:03.400 - 01:39:11.240

This was Christmas. Yes. What was that Christmas like? Well, it was nice being home for Christmas.

01:39:11.240 - 01:39:22.280

My sister wasn't-- I think my sister was gone. She had left and gone to Washington, so she wasn't home. So it was just me.

01:39:22.280 - 01:39:34.200

I guess. And my uncle had died and my aunt was there. So it was kind of a-- it wasn't-- all of the family wasn't there at that time.

01:39:34.200 - 01:39:48.960

Then what did you decide to do? Well, I intended to go back to school and finish my degree. But I didn't go back. It was too late to enroll for the fall semester--

01:39:48.960 - 01:39:56.080

for the spring semester. So I waited and I went out. My sister, in the meantime, had remarried and she was out in San Diego.

01:39:56.080 - 01:40:08.880

And so I went out and visited her and then came back. And then started in summer school at TWU. And did you graduate from TWU? Yes, I did.

01:40:08.880 - 01:40:21.120

And then what? In January-- at the end of the fall term in January-- January of '46. And what was that degree in?

01:40:21.120 - 01:40:29.520

Speech, it was called in. It was the whole-- all of it. It was everything but speech. And then where did you go from there?

01:40:29.520 - 01:40:43.600

I came back after that and taught school here for one year. And then in the late spring, I left and went to New York. Why did you decide to go to New York?

01:40:43.600 - 01:40:59.280

I had known a young man who had gone to the American Academy of the Dramatic Arts and I was interested in going up there and going back to-- thought it might be-- get more experience. So I had written and applied to go

01:40:59.280 - 01:41:16.840

and then I had to go up there and have an audition. And they probably wouldn't accept everybody, I'm sure. But anyway, then I stayed on and went and stayed there until about December of the next year.

01:41:16.840 - 01:41:30.120

Describe what that was like, being at that academy. Where did you live? I lived in a studio, a studio club, which was a YMCA, a hotel for women.

01:41:30.120 - 01:41:42.080

And I commuted back and forth. It was a whole different experience. It was different in a lot of ways than what I'd had in college.

01:41:42.080 - 01:41:57.320

It was very intense, a lot of diction and voice, which I've forgotten, but reverted. Do you remember any special professors? Yes, I remember one old fellow.

01:41:57.320 - 01:42:12.680

His name was Dr. Jellinger. He was-- well, Jellinger, he was 80 some odd years old and he was one of the founders of it. And he interviewed me.

01:42:12.680 - 01:42:28.840

And he taught one class. He was a strange person. He would beat on the table the whole time you were trying to sit on it.

01:42:28.840 - 01:42:45.360

Give in, give in, give in, just beat, beat, beat. Everett G. Robinson went there and they said that he made Everett G. Robinson cry. But he was 80 something years old.

01:42:45.360 - 01:42:55.840

Make you cry? No, but I'll tell you, it was a strain if you had to go through all that. But I'd been through it and was, so I got used to it.

01:42:55.840 - 01:43:13.400

The school-- there was another fellow there, too. There were several very fine instructors. And I'm sorry, but I can't remember all their names anymore.

01:43:13.400 - 01:43:30.720

I can see them, but I can't remember what the names were. You had acting class, you had dance, you had movement, you had voice. Then you had acting classes and then plays

01:43:30.720 - 01:43:49.960

that you gave at the end of the semester. You'd do about three one-act plays or four. Do you remember one specific play that you enjoyed being in? Remember, this time, this was just a simple one-act play.

01:43:49.960 - 01:44:04.040

But they'd take acts from it. Philadelphia Story. And oh, goodness, I can remember the play, but I can't remember the names.

01:44:04.040 - 01:44:11.880

Some of them were older than others. And some of them were parts that-- you'd take all different kinds of parts. You'd take character parts, and then you'd

01:44:11.880 - 01:44:22.040

take other kinds, ingenue, and then middle age, and things like that. Did you also study for behind the scenes? No.

01:44:22.040 - 01:44:31.000

No. You mean the lighting? No, that I did at school, TSCW. I had screen designs.

01:44:31.000 - 01:44:39.520

That I did there, and lighting and all of that. In this school-- In separate courses. This was simply for acting.

01:44:39.520 - 01:44:52.480

Do you remember any of the students who were there? Was there anyone that was outstanding to you? If you mean if anyone became well-known, I'm not sure. I don't know.

01:44:52.480 - 01:45:06.600

I don't recall anybody. There may have been one, but I can't be sure. How long did this school last? It was about six months.

01:45:06.600 - 01:45:15.760

And there was a second class, but I decided not to go on to that second time. What did you intend to do? Well, I was going to audition.

01:45:15.760 - 01:45:31.120

I tried auditioning, things like that, which is a blow. I wasn't very good at it anyway. And I decided I wasn't going to-- it probably wasn't for me. So then what did you--

01:45:31.120 - 01:45:42.600

I wonder how she survived in New York City. How did you survive in New York City, a little girl from West Texas? Well, I've never had that problem of surviving.

01:45:42.600 - 01:45:58.680

I figure I could survive anywhere, really. I grew up fairly independently. My parents, when I look back on it, it sort of amazes me, because they would take us to dance lessons over and drop us

01:45:58.680 - 01:46:06.080

off, or somebody would ride over and drop us off in Abilene and leave us. And then we'd go to the Wolfsburg and get something to eat, and then somebody

01:46:06.080 - 01:46:14.880

would come pick us up. And also, we'd take a train to Albany for dance lessons and come back. And we'd go to Fort Worth shopping,

01:46:14.880 - 01:46:29.640

and they'd leave us in the hotels until the show opened, and we'd go to the movies. So that never did really bother me. I was cautious, but I was never afraid of anything.

01:46:29.640 - 01:46:41.720

Did you make any lasting friendships when you were going to school there? Some that I kept in touch with, but others that come and go. I wasn't probably there long enough.

01:46:41.720 - 01:46:55.040

Not like-- well, you don't get together again. I did go back after I was working for American Airlines and visited some of them. It's not like where you get together ever so often,

01:46:55.040 - 01:47:06.640

because you lose touch. It's a shame, but you do. I remember them. When you decided that that might not be for you,

01:47:06.640 - 01:47:21.920

what did you decide to do then? Well, I came back, and I had a friend that I'd gone to school with in GWU that was an airline stewardess for American.

01:47:21.920 - 01:47:38.000

And when she came from New York and when I was up there, we got in touch with each other. So when I came back, I talked to her, and then I applied for a job down at Dallas

01:47:38.000 - 01:47:44.480

and was accepted. And I worked there for about four years. And what was your main job with-- It was reservations.

01:47:44.480 - 01:47:50.680

It was in reservations. OK. Did you live by yourself? No, I had two aunts that lived in Dallas.

01:47:50.680 - 01:47:59.160

When I first went down there, I stayed with them. And then I had a friend here that I'd grown up with that had an apartment. I lived with her for a while.

01:47:59.160 - 01:48:07.400

Then I moved in with some college roommates that I'd had at TSCW, and that's where I stayed most of the time until I married. And did you marry while you were--

01:48:07.400 - 01:48:16.600

Yes. --working for American Airlines? What was there, the qualities of that young man that attracted you to him?

01:48:16.600 - 01:48:32.840

He was a radio newsman. I guess that was the common bond. And he was a newsman for WFAA radio at that time. This was just before television.

01:48:32.840 - 01:48:50.720

And later, we went and moved to Fort Worth, and he was a newsman for the television, on television. How did your mom and dad feel about your getting married? I don't know, because I was getting on up there in years

01:48:50.720 - 01:48:57.080

before I got married. So they probably wondered. I don't know. OK.

01:48:57.080 - 01:49:02.960

They were all right. Describe your wedding. It was here. At home, in this home?

01:49:02.960 - 01:49:16.320

In the home. And my niece-- my niece, my little girl, about four or five years old, was flower girl. And my sister was the maid of honor.

01:49:16.320 - 01:49:25.960

Describe your dress. It was lace, white lace. It wasn't a formal wedding. It was mid-calf, lower calf.

01:49:25.960 - 01:49:39.960

And a cap was on. Then where did you go on your honeymoon? Colorado. Up near-- where is it?

01:49:39.960 - 01:49:51.480

The park, Rocky Mountain Park, just outside of there. We knew some people that had cabins up there. Then after you were married, did you go back to Dallas? Yes, we went back to Dallas.

01:49:51.480 - 01:50:03.040

And we were there for three or four years, four years. 1954. Married in '51. I guess we left in '54.

01:50:03.040 - 01:50:15.480

After we married, we were there about three years. Did you have children? Yes. One, Teresa, my oldest.

01:50:15.480 - 01:50:26.160

And we moved just before my second daughter was born. She was born in-- we moved to Fort Worth, but it was so close. And my obstetrician had been in Dallas.

01:50:26.160 - 01:50:33.600

And we moved in July or something like that. She was born in October. So we went back to Dallas before she was born. She was born in Dallas.

01:50:33.600 - 01:50:49.080

Then you moved again after that? We were in there for about four or five years. And we stopped in Falls for one year. And then we moved to Waco.

01:50:49.080 - 01:51:00.840

And we were there about five. While your two girls were growing up, what did you do? Were you a part of their activities? Yes.

01:51:00.840 - 01:51:22.920

I had a scout troop, cub scout troop. And I went to the PTA meetings, all of the nine yards. What were your little girls interested in in school? Were they interested in dance?

01:51:22.920 - 01:51:39.640

Were they interested in theater? They were-- at what age are you referring to? Anywhere along the line. They were interested in singing.

01:51:39.640 - 01:51:50.080

They both liked to sing. They sang, and they sang with a group of church. They sang specials. And the older daughter sang with bands later on,

01:51:50.080 - 01:51:59.360

some little bands that they had organized, I mean local. And Sherry liked to sing, too. They both did. And I think they started that in church,

01:51:59.360 - 01:52:11.360

the Ninth or Seventh Church. And they liked that. But as far as the drama's concerned, they weren't. My granddaughter became interested in that.

01:52:11.360 - 01:52:23.920

And once you left Waco, did you move back to Luther or San? Yes, I came back here. We were divorced, and I decided I needed to go back and get a teaching certificate.

01:52:23.920 - 01:52:38.560

I mean, I had my degree, but I needed recertification. So I went back to school, and then I taught, began teaching. What did you teach? I taught-- well, started off with language arts

01:52:38.560 - 01:52:50.080

in junior high, junior high language arts. And then I moved down to the fifth grade and taught fifth grade for several years. Then I moved back to junior high.

01:52:50.080 - 01:53:02.440

I just moved around. Sometimes I teach sixth grade, sometimes I teach fifth grade. But then also was in charge of the library, had to coach-- one year coached basketball,

01:53:02.440 - 01:53:12.520

two years coached basketball. And I told them, you don't know, finally I went in and I told them, I said, look, when I went to school, you only got one bounce.

01:53:12.520 - 01:53:21.080

And now they were dribbling all over the floor. I said, I'm not qualified. You need to get somebody that's better. I did buy a book.

01:53:21.080 - 01:53:32.040

I had a niece that played basketball, and I got a book from her. And I did read that and try to tell them. It was a little bit different from when I grew up, though.

01:53:32.040 - 01:53:51.720

But one girl was interested in basketball, the girl that went to Tech. The other didn't, wasn't. So our classes, they weren't geared too much for the arts

01:53:51.720 - 01:54:01.120

here at the time that my girls were going to school here at Luters, because they came back when they were in the seventh and eighth grade. They were in junior high when they came back here.

01:54:01.120 - 01:54:14.560

And it was more geared to biology and sciences and math and things of that sort. And so one daughter was interested and went with sciences, and then worked at it for three years.

01:54:14.560 - 01:54:29.160

Then changed jobs and went into another field, other things. But decided she'd be a headhunter, because she'd worked-- and of course, that was right when the oil boom busted,

01:54:29.160 - 01:54:41.000

and she had decided on petroleum engineers to go after her. So that didn't work out. -What kind of a mother were you when those girls were growing up as far as rules and regulations?

01:54:41.000 - 01:54:51.960

-I'm a stickler, I guess. You'd have to ask them. I don't know. You get different opinions.

01:54:51.960 - 01:55:00.000

-But did you stay a close-knit family? -Yes. Yes. Yes.

01:55:00.000 - 01:55:07.000

-And eventually you began to teach in high school, right? -Yes. Oh. -Tell us about that.

01:55:07.000 - 01:55:21.800

-Well, I guess it was actually one of my daughters wanted somebody ask if I would direct a play. So I did one. And I guess that was-- I think it was one

01:55:21.800 - 01:55:32.440

of my daughters in the senior. Well, it wasn't very successful. But then the next year, my second daughter was in the play along with some other students.

01:55:32.440 - 01:55:54.560

But in the third year, they were gone. And I did the "Robe of the Galilean." And we went to regional on that one. But then I started a drama and theater class in high school.

01:55:54.560 - 01:56:07.380

And part of it was history of the theater. Part of it was acting. It was a general course in it, all of it. And--

01:56:07.380 - 01:56:19.560

-And at the same time you were teaching drama in high school, we also had-- -Teaching down here. Sometimes I'd have seven classes, six or seven classes.

01:56:19.560 - 01:56:28.740

And then we'd-- and especially. And then if I was coaching, that was the weekend. That was weekends that had tournaments. And you'd have to go with these kids on tournaments.

01:56:28.740 - 01:56:39.000

And on top of that, I was also the pep squad sponsor for junior high. So I stayed pretty busy, making up drills and things for them to march to.

01:56:39.000 - 01:56:53.960

-Do you remember any competitions in drills? -No, not in this level. Not at this level. The bands, yes, but not for-- this is pep squad.

01:56:53.960 - 01:57:08.080

And they didn't have that much then. And it was junior high. -What was-- do you remember one outstanding play that you directed?

01:57:08.080 - 01:57:25.680

-We did Persephone, a far one-act play. Also did a one-act version of, gosh, Shakespeare's-- -Taming of the Shrew? -Taming?

01:57:25.680 - 01:57:35.160

-Taming of the Shrew. And did some others, too. I can't remember. There were 10 years of them.

01:57:35.160 - 01:57:41.360

Come and go. -But you would enter those in competition with other high schools. -Yeah, you'd have a district.

01:57:41.360 - 01:57:52.560

For instance, you'd be organized in districts. And there'd be five or six schools in districts. And then they'd combine-- then you would go-- then they got to combining the schools together so that you'd

01:57:52.560 - 01:58:04.560

have-- so many in one district, you'd have two districts. And then you'd have a performance or competition in each of the districts. And they'd have a district meet.

01:58:04.560 - 01:58:12.500

And then from there, you would go to area. And then from area, you'd go to regional. And regional, you'd go to state. And--

01:58:12.500 - 01:58:31.320

-And you won regional. -Yeah, I won regional and went to state one year. And then I had two or three placed on the All-Star cast. -Have any of your students continued?

01:58:31.320 - 01:58:41.760

-No. None of them that I know of. Oh, that's not right. One that's my daughter's age is in California, in San Diego.

01:58:41.760 - 01:58:58.840

No, Los Angeles-- Burbank, I think it is. And she does some commercials and things of that sort. -Does your-- some of those classes have high school reunions so that you--

01:58:58.840 - 01:59:11.240

-They have reunions here, but not-- to be quite honest, most people don't become interested in reunions until there's about 30 years have gone by, 30 or 40. That's when they get interested in it.

01:59:11.240 - 01:59:21.120

But maybe it's because their lives are so tied up with their families that they don't have time around-- can go. -Is that high school that you went to,

01:59:21.120 - 01:59:28.520

is it still in Luters? -Yes. No, the high-- well, several years ago, about a year after I came back, they

01:59:28.520 - 01:59:41.720

consolidated this school with another school. So the high school is in Avoca. And the elementary and junior high is in Luters. So it's called Luters Avoca.

01:59:41.720 - 01:59:55.760

-And eventually, did you just retire from teaching? -I retired because I got fed up with the paperwork. I'm 83, and I really retired before I should have. But I was beginning to burn out.

01:59:55.760 - 02:00:14.000

And the paperwork had gotten to the point that I stayed angry at having to do all of this mess. It was simply busy work, and nobody ever looked at it. You couldn't-- hours trying to fill out

02:00:14.000 - 02:00:27.440

papers on objectives and how you do this and how you do that. It just irritated me to the point I thought it's not worth the state. This will get unhappy with it and maybe affect the kids.

02:00:27.440 - 02:00:37.400

So I said, forget it. -Since you retired, what have you kept busy doing? -Well, in genealogy, for one thing, I've been interested in that.

02:00:37.400 - 02:00:46.520

And I've worked and dug around that. I've taken several tours. I've gone places. Traveled quite a bit.

02:00:46.520 - 02:01:05.760

-Tell me about one outstanding bit of travel you did. -Well, I was with the WASP, a group of WASP. And we went to Kenya and went on a safari. And then went back up to Cairo and went down on a boat

02:01:05.760 - 02:01:12.520

in Egypt. And that was really interesting. I enjoyed that. -How many WASP were with you?

02:01:12.520 - 02:01:25.600

-Well, there was two tours put together. I guess about 12 or 15, something like that. Some of them would go for one part of it, and then some would come for the other.

02:01:25.600 - 02:01:37.800

And I have a picture of all of us before the pyramid. But if you ask me what all those other things were that I saw, I'm not sure I know. They just rushed you through so fast.

02:01:37.800 - 02:01:52.360

I thought, nobody ever tells you why, unless you ask a question. If they do, they just say, yes, yes. -Do you do other things as far as sports now?

02:01:52.360 - 02:01:57.960

Are you-- -No, not so much. I walk. I don't know.

02:01:57.960 - 02:02:04.160

I don't think you ought to be jarring yourself around at my age. -Are you still involved with your church? -Yes.

02:02:04.160 - 02:02:14.680

I still work in the church. It's a small church, and for a while, we didn't have a musician. So I didn't have any music.

02:02:14.680 - 02:02:26.840

And we can't sing without music. So some people may, but we can't. And one of the girls that used to be an organist here taped some music for me.

02:02:26.840 - 02:02:35.360

And I started off that way. And then another minister did some music on an organ. And I put it together. And then I could put down the whole sermon.

02:02:35.360 - 02:02:44.320

All I have to do is hit the pause button. -Are you the song leader? -No, I couldn't sing. I'm not a leader.

02:02:44.320 - 02:02:52.500

I just organized it to the music. -OK, she's going to change tapes. -Again, make-- -OK.

02:02:52.500 - 02:03:12.880

As you look back over your life, you've done so many things. What is the one thing that you've done that you are most proud of? -I suppose the was-- flying, an accomplishment.

02:03:12.880 - 02:03:28.400

-Could you tell me why? -Because it was something that took a lot of little commitment and determination to do something. You have to have some kind of determination.

02:03:28.400 - 02:03:40.280

You have to have some skills. But it was a good experience. It was a learning experience. It required discipline.

02:03:40.280 - 02:03:55.040

And probably at an age when we needed it and didn't know, it was probably very good. -What do you feel will be the legacy of the Wasp? -I'm not really sure.

02:03:55.040 - 02:04:08.080

I would hope the legacy would be that you can do things if you're determined enough and willing to work for it. I hope that would be the legacy, and that they were pioneers, possibly, in free flight-- in flight.

02:04:08.080 - 02:04:15.680

Whether or not it's remembered 30 years from now, I'm not sure. I sometimes wonder. When you look back at history, a lot of things

02:04:15.680 - 02:04:23.640

are not remembered. Maybe some. Perhaps this will be. -I was going to ask you, in view of the fact

02:04:23.640 - 02:04:33.600

that we were left out of the history books, what is your thoughts about this project that is trying to get that history into the computerized classrooms for education?

02:04:33.600 - 02:04:44.600

-I think it will be good. Now, I think that would be very good. Now, I have had some students, little girls that have written me from other places, writing me and asking

02:04:44.600 - 02:04:56.120

me for information, because they had writing assignments in a certain part of the year when they work on women and women's accomplishments. And I have had children like that.

02:04:56.120 - 02:05:10.080

But you'd be surprised how many people still don't even know what you're talking about, unless it's in the classroom. But then, will they cover it?

02:05:10.080 - 02:05:17.120

It's there, available. It's on the computer. There's plenty on the computer. There's a lot on the computers right now, on the internet.

02:05:17.120 - 02:05:31.860

But unless it's brought up or someone has some contact with it, I would hope it would reach them. Somebody gets the message. I don't know.

02:05:31.860 - 02:05:43.720

I hope it will. -Mary, every person in life has ups and downs. They have good times, happy times, and then they have sad times.

02:05:43.720 - 02:06:01.880

Tell me, what has gotten you through the sad times? -Oh, sense of humor, I hope. I mean, sure, there are hard times, and there are stresses and things.

02:06:01.880 - 02:06:09.840

But you just go on. And probably a lot of that training is the worst. You go on, you go on, you do what you have to do. You do it.

02:06:09.840 - 02:06:23.440

You don't whine about it. You do the best you can. If it doesn't, well, don't worry about it. But determination, perseverance, and a sense of humor.

02:06:23.440 - 02:06:35.880

Something that if you can laugh at yourself, then maybe you can laugh at-- you can get by. -What advice would you give to your grandchildren and to children and future generations

02:06:35.880 - 02:06:56.920

that might encourage them to succeed? What would you like to say to them? -I don't know that they listen. I don't think people, children, have the judgment

02:06:56.920 - 02:07:07.720

to understand. That was a favorite expression of my father's. The man doesn't have any judgment. And I think usually because of lack of experience.

02:07:07.720 - 02:07:25.280

And I'm not a judge. And I'm not sure that our children are getting the experience from society today that they need. The discipline or the values or the ethics or the morality.

02:07:25.280 - 02:07:38.280

That worries me more than anything. To help them succeed, determination, a willingness to really work at what it is that you want. Because nothing comes easy.

02:07:38.280 - 02:07:49.360

You have to work at everything to make a success of it. You've got to be willing to give more than just 100% if you want to be successful. That is something that they need to know.

02:07:49.360 - 02:07:57.920

I don't think they understand that. I think they float around and think maybe it's easy. And I can just float from one thing to the other and it doesn't work that way.

02:07:57.920 - 02:08:09.280

And I think one of the reasons the WASP program was so good was because I think they taught us that. You had to live up to performances. And I probably wasn't too good about that

02:08:09.280 - 02:08:24.240

before I went into the WASP. Determination, values, perseverance, and a sense of humor. And honesty.

02:08:24.240 - 02:08:37.800

And probably not judging people, but working with them. My last question. What part has God played in your life? He's always been there.

02:08:37.800 - 02:08:47.920

I think you have to have a faith. A faith and a belief. And trust. I would just say faith, too.

02:08:47.920 - 02:08:56.960

But that's it. I think that's pulled through a lot of times. When bad times come, that's always there. There's always God.

02:08:56.960 - 02:09:04.600

And you know that he will help some way or another. And he has. Even when you thought you didn't know whether or not you're going to have enough to spend on what,

02:09:04.600 - 02:09:12.360

it came through. Maybe not a great deal, but it was enough for you to get by. So you have to have that faith, too. And I think they're missing that, too.

02:09:12.360 - 02:09:25.920

I don't think they really bring the kids up to understanding. Maybe they will. You've had a wonderful life, and I thank you for sharing that with children of future generations.

02:09:25.920 - 02:09:35.600

Well, I thank you for having me. Oh, she's pretty. Is there anything else? Is there anything that I've left out that you would like to say?

02:09:35.600 - 02:09:42.200

I don't know. If you don't, I'll think of it tomorrow. [LAUGHTER] There's always tomorrow.

02:09:42.200 - 02:09:48.240

Oh, Lord. I'll think of it. I tell you, you know, I'm just sitting around thinking about things, and things pop up out of your mind.

02:09:48.240 - 02:09:58.280

I thought, where in the world? Why would I think of that? I was thinking about a house caught on fire here in Luters. It was my uncle, another aunt and uncle's house

02:09:58.280 - 02:10:10.560

across the street. And I remember seeing Reuben Nance, who had the ice house and the coal store. And they were running across the street yelling,

02:10:10.560 - 02:10:22.440

SK Hanson's house is on fire. And I thought, why would I remember that? Then I got to thinking, I'm not even sure I saw that man. Maybe I just heard him, and it was my imagination.

02:10:22.440 - 02:10:28.640

[LAUGHTER] I've been carrying it on all these years. But was it really on fire? Yes, it did burn.

02:10:28.640 - 02:10:35.560

But why didn't I remember that? And why was he running that way? Why was he going that way? That's my imagination.

02:10:35.560 - 02:10:46.440

I started thinking he was going the wrong direction. So I thought, maybe I just made that up in my mind. But you know, I'm doing histories and things. I'm interested in histories.

02:10:46.440 - 02:10:57.760

And you can't believe all these people, what they remember. [COUGHING] I'm going to turn this off. [COUGHING]

02:10:57.760 - 02:11:03.400

I'm going to get a drink of water. I had that one.