00:00:03.020 - 00:00:20.540

Eventually I'll say, you know, could I ask you about this or something. So we'll go back and pick up where we were. And all I'm, you may see me writing, I'm just writing down time code to keep us on track here. And eventually we'll have to change tapes. So we stopped.

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We will run out of tape because the tapes aren't very good. Right. But it's, it's your life. We can always play a little Glenn Miller music in the background. Yeah. Oh, we can have an airplane taking off and landing.

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All right. I'm Deanie Parrish. We're interviewing Martha Bossart in her home in Washington, Iowa. She was a WASP, Class 44W5.

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Today is the 2nd of August, 2001. Okay, Martha, if you would begin by telling us your name and when and where you were born. I'm Martha Mace Beauchard, and I was born in Washington, Iowa in 1920. Okay, what's your birthday?

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Day after Christmas. I chose another birthday, May 10th, and nobody at Sweetwater could understand why I got two birthday cakes and everything. And then I discovered later when I became a mother that I still interfered with the

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date. (Laughter) Karen Dielers: Martha, tell us about your mom and dad. Martha Steele: Oh, they were wonderful people.

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They were very short. My dad was about 5'1" and mother was 5'2", and dad was very active with the community. Mother was a stay-at-home mother, a very pretty lady. Where did they live in Washington?

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Did they live inside the town or out? Inside the town, in the 600 block from the square. And they moved there in that house, which was two blocks from where I was born. And they moved in there when I was two, and they lost my bottle, so I was weaned.

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[Laughter] And what did your dad do? My dad was a pharmacist and took work at the University of Iowa. And then, evidently, he must have gotten car crazy,

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because he went to work as a bookkeeper for the Ford dealer, and in 1920, the year I was born, he bought the Ford business. And that's what he did all his life. And your mom was a stay-at-home mom.

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Where did you start school? Oh, down the street, about four blocks, I walked in a grade school. Tell me about your siblings. Oh, I had a brother that was so shy that they didn't even, the community didn't even know

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we had a boy. He was so shy, hid behind my mother's skirts. We were 22 months apart. And then I had a sister, beautiful red-haired sister, and she was spoiled.

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But we all got along. I remember nothing bad about my childhood, so it must have been very normal and easy. Right. Tell me your very first remembrances.

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Was it of getting off that bottle? No, I was only twenty, I was only, well, it was when Jack was born, so I was just about twenty-two months old, see. What are your earliest remembrances of your childhood?

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Going to Sunday school, I guess. Do you remember any of your Sunday school teachers? Yes, I remembered one we had when we were in high school that we kept letting her follow us.

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We would graduate, we'd take her with us to the next step. And she was a remarkable woman, a marvelous Sunday school teacher. And to get us girls to keep us from giggling and everything, she was excellent. DC: When you were in grammar school, do you remember any particular teacher in grammar

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school that you were fond of? Oh, I like them all. I like teachers. During your early years, did you get vacations?

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We didn't take many vacations. I would go to the farm and visit relatives that I had around Washington and farms. I'd go out there and spend a week sometimes. I wanted to ask you about your grandparents.

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My mother was just, I think, six when her mother died, and her father died just before I was born. So I had my grandparents on the Mace side, and Grandpa was a short little man like my father, and he walked to work downtown to the grocery store where he was a clerk.

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And he walked a mile back at noon and at night, and then they had kind of an acreage at the the edge of town and had all kinds of berries and fruit and vegetables and everything. They kept us busy all summer with them. And that's how they existed.

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They had built the house they lived in and it was at the edge of town. And they were, oh I loved to go there. Grandma let me cook and Grandpa would stop every Saturday night on the way back to work at our house and leave vegetables and things.

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Do you remember what kind of stove you cooked on? Was it a wood stove? No, it was an old range. Okay.

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Wood, I suppose, yes. The relatives that you went out to the farm, how were you related to those? They were my mother's siblings' children that I visited out at the farm. One had nine children, and there were two younger than I was.

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So the rest of them, a lot of them were gone. But the one about my age, we'd get on the old pony and go down to the creek and build dams and things, and I thought I was in heaven. Out on this farm, this is Iowa.

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Did they raise corn? Or they raised corn and beans and their own food. When you were in, as a young child, what were some of the games you played? Did you play a lot of games with your siblings?

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I don't remember playing a lot of games. Okay. When you finished grammar school, was that sixth grade or did it go up to eighth grade? Sixth, seventh, and eighth were in a separate junior high.

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And then did you have to transfer to another building? Yes. For those grades? Uh-huh.

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When you were in junior high, what were your ambitions? Have fun. I became interested in boys. We had a girls gang and a boys gang.

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And one of my very best friends is right out here on the campus, and he's still my best friend, and his wife is my best girlfriend, one of them. That's sixty years later. In junior high, when you had your little special friends, what would you guys do for fun?

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Do you have a theater? We'd go to the movies. Let's see, we'd go to the movies. sit and talk for the hour.

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We loved to go eat. DC: Then, as you went on into high school, what was your interest? What was your favorite subject in high school? HD: Drama.

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DC: Drama. Did you have a whole drama department? HD: Yes. We had a drama teacher.

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DC: How big was your high school? Well, I graduated sixth in a class of 106, if that tells you about what size it was. What sparked your interest in drama? Do you have any idea?

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I loved to read. Perhaps that led me to it. I'd stand in recess at school and read while we were standing in line ready to go in. I couldn't lay my book down.

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Could you tell me about one particular play that you were in that you really enjoyed? I do not know if I can remember what it was. It was ended up, somebody did not get clear to heaven and somebody did. It's a famous play, but I can't remember.

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I can remember having to project my voice clear to the back of the theater in the high school so that everybody could hear. Did you get the ingenue parts or the character parts usually? The ingenue.

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Naturally. I could have guessed that. Did you have other interests then, other than drama? Were you into sports, for example?

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Dianne: Oh yes, they had teams in gymnasium, and I played on those. I loved sports. But you were not into music. Dianne: No, I was.

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Oh, I played the violin clear through my junior year. I was never a good one. I never could learn to use my fingers right, like this, you know. And I didn't, don't think I was always on tune, but I was in the orchestra all through

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high school and junior high. Do you know why you started learning to play the violin? Well, back in 1925, I was in third, oh it was '28, I was in third grade. And they came out with a—I can't think the name—but something fiddle, and it was

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square, a rectangle like this. And they brought them into the grade school, and if you were interested, you could play. They had strings, like a violin with a bow. And of course my folks said, "Surely, try it.

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You might like it." And that's how I got started. How involved was your mom and dad with school, with your activities? Mother was very active in parent-teachers.

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Dad was on the school board when the two elementary schools that they still use. He was president of the school board at that time. So, they were very interested in it. I know at one point you joined another organization because your mom was an Eastern Star.

00:12:01.700 - 00:12:09.080

Tell us about that. The Rainbow Girls? I enjoyed Rainbow very much. It was drama.

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We memorized different phases of the Rainbow and went to conventions, met a lot of nice people, and we even had dances. So before I even dated, we had dances there with the D-Millet boys, which I enjoyed. My cousins in the country had taught me to dance.

00:12:34.180 - 00:12:48.120

How far did you get in Rainbow Girls? I was worthy advisor. And while you were in high school and junior high, did you also participate in church activities? Yes, yes.

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We had, it was the Empress League at the time. Methodist. Methodist, and I was very active in that. As you were growing up, Martha, who were your role models?

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I had a couple cousins of the uncle and aunt that had the nine children. One of the girls lived with us for a year while she went to get junior college to get a teacher certificate. And the other one was absolutely beautiful.

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And well, they were both attractive, but the one was especially beautiful. And I guess that was about it within the family. Kelly: Tell me, what was a Christmas like in your home when you were growing up? Lane: Well, we—the folks never put up a tree until the night before Christmas, and

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it was done after we went to bed. So we never decorated a tree. We had a room that could be shut off at the time before we remodeled. And the presents were all under that tree.

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And then after we opened our presents, we always went to my Mace's grandparents, because Grandpa just insisted we come. And we spent every holiday there. And more food than you could even guess at.

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So it was a fun day. And my dad just had one sister, and so she and her husband would come too, but they had no children, so that was our family. Did you hang up stockings?

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No. No. Okay. How did the town of Washington celebrate Christmas?

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I don't remember that it did. It does now. Right. How about your church?

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Did you have a pageant? Yes, we had a Christmas pageant always. In fact, I directed one or two of them when I was in high school. And as a young child, do you ever remember being in the pageant?

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Were you an angel? No, I don't remember being in it. I remember that I was in one program, and I went home, and they found out that I had chicken pox.

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And I exposed everybody that was in the Christmas program. And I had a sister and a brother, and we all went through at different stages with the chicken pox. And when the last one got back in school and the sign was off our house, I got the mumps

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and brought them home. And the same thing, so my mother was never out of the house practically all spring. Sign on the house? Yeah, explain what a sign on the house meant.

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When we had a contagious disease back then, you had a sign in your house so that nobody would enter it, that would be exposed to it. The doctor put it up. What kind of student were you in high school?

00:16:11.380 - 00:16:29.700

Well, you said you graduated sixth out of a hundred? In a class of 106. In sports in high school, did you ever participate in competitive things with other schools? No. We did not have girls' basketball or anything like we do now.

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How about drama? Yes, we'd have state competition, which I entered in. How'd you do? Well, usually pretty well.

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I loved what I was doing. What were your aspirations? I'd love to have gone on in drama, I really would. But the war came on and it changed the car business at the time, not as much as we thought

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would, but you we had to prepare for it. And so I just went into business, and I loved business, so it was all right. Tell me about your, did you have a junior prom or just a senior prom? Do you remember either of those? It's a senior, I think it was junior/senior prom. Okay, so that you would have gone in your junior year? Yes,

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But we didn't have dances until our senior year. Was that a rule or just? Well the principal, that was her rule, and I was on the committee to write the letters to different other schools around the area to see how they got along with prom and dances.

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And next year, my senior year, we had to dance. And your principal in high school was a woman? Was that--? A single woman, maiden lady.

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Was that kind of unusual, do you think? I never thought it was. Right, okay. Tell me about your prom.

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What did you wear? I wore a dress that my aunt, my maiden aunt, my mother's oldest sister, was a seamstress at the, I can't remember the name of it now, but the big department store in Oklahoma City.

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And these had been, she sent me two dresses, and they had been worn by models, and then she could get them for practically nothing. So she sent me two dresses, and one of them was a little fancy, and the other one was elastic from here, cleared down mid-hip, and then flared out from there.

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And it was icy blue. I loved it. And tell me about who took you to the senior prom. My friend Stuart.

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Tell us about Stuart. Stuart met in junior high, and we were friends. And when it was Sadie Hawkins Day, I could invite him, because I didn't really date a lot.

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I danced and did things like that, but not with dates. And Stu and I really didn't date much, we were just friends. And to this day we are still friends. In the middle of the night last year, I had a knee give out on me and pain, and I called

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him up to come pick me up. So he and his wife came and picked me up. My children never understood how I had a boyfriend, but he is a true friend. And it's been many years now.

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Describe your high school graduation. Did you have caps and gowns? Yes, I think we did. We always had a class day where you had to pretty dress for.

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And then you had graduation, yes, we had caps and gowns. And, uh... Did you have a baccalaureate? Mm-hmm.

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Where was it held? In the high school. Okay. And how did they select the ministers who might participate in baccalaureate?

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Do you know? I think through the Ministerial Association in town. And for children who've never heard of a baccalaureate, explain what a baccalaureate is. Well, it's where we have somebody preach to us. It's a church service for graduates.

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And then... They can't have them through the school. And before you graduated from high school, did you know what you would be doing when you finished high school?

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Did you have a plan? Yes, to go to junior college. And how did you select that particular junior college? Because it was right in my hometown and my dad was on the school board.

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And what did you intend to study? You said business? Business. I took typing and shorthand, business law, along with the required subjects, and I worked

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for the dean of the college in the office part-time. Can you explain what the role of girls was when they were in the work field, what they were expected to do and what they were not really expected to do as far as professionalism at that time?

00:22:21.780 - 00:22:33.240

No, that was the farthest thing from my mind back then. I didn't read about it. I mean, I don't remember reading about it or anything. I think it's played up maybe too much.

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It was a peaceful time. DC: Right. But did you know girls who went on to be doctors, for example? Or was that more or less a man's field?

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No, some of them were doctors. No, we could pretty much, I never felt we were restricted. When you started the summer before you went to junior college, do you recall how you spent that summer?

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I worked at the library at nights, and I had a good time. Was it a town library or city? City library. Okay.

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Did you have any desire to go into journalism? No, I can't write. Okay. When you started junior college, did you still live at home?

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Yes. Okay. And could you walk to school? Mm-hmm.

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It's about three blocks. Okay. Do you recall any of your--? It's in the high school.

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Do you recall any of your teachers in junior college that might have influenced you? Steele: No. I liked them all. And when you finished your two years in junior college, what year was that?

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Steele: 1940. I graduated in '38. So, this was still before the war started. So then what did you do after you finished that?

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My grandfather took sick, and so Dad asked if I wouldn't mind staying out of school for a while. It ended up to be a year. And so I worked at J.C. Penny Company as the cashier when they used to run the little bugs

00:24:31.500 - 00:24:46.360

up on the wires up into an office. I did that and the office work for a year. When you were in your junior college in that year, what was your social life like? Bell: Well, I had a steady boyfriend.

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Dannah: Tell us about him. Bell: Well, he was very nice. He was my brother's age, but that didn't bother us at all. We did lots of things with a group of young people.

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Dannah: Okay. At the end of that year, then what did you do after? Pearl Harbor was while I was at Drake. Explain to us where you were and how that made you feel when you heard about it.

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Well, a fellow that I had dated off and on had come up to spend Sunday with me in Des Moines, and we were getting ready to go out to eat dinner and turned the radio on. And, it was a scary day. I mean, you realized the boys wouldn't be around much longer.

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And that night, while we were, I think we went to a movie, and as we came out of the movie there was a streak of a star across the sky. And I said, "That was just a sign." for trouble.

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How did Pearl Harbor change the town of Washington as far as the people in the town? I think it brought everybody close together. Did a lot of your high school male friends, did they soon leave to go into the service? Well I was at Drake, of course, at the time, and by January, the boys were almost all gone.

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Off the campus. Let me back up and find out when you went to Drake. After I worked at Penny's for a year, then I went to Drake for a year in Des Moines. When you went to Drake, where did you live?

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South Hall, which is kind of an annex dormitory. Most of us were transfer students from junior college. Why did you decide on Drake? My father knew somebody who went to Drake, and he got in touch with them.

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I went up and visited Drake one day, and so that was how I went to Drake. What were you going to major in at Drake? They had a new course called Secretarial Science that I took along with regular courses. When you went to Drake, did you get involved with a sorority?

00:27:21.380 - 00:27:36.920

No. What were your social activities like when you got to Drake? Did you date the boys from Washington, or did you pick up new ones? Well, I dated this one boy off and on, and I didn't really date a lot.

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We had a good group of girls in the South Hall, not so many, but you could get acquainted with everybody. In fact, we lived on third, kind of the attic, like, that had been fixed up. So everybody came to our room so they could smoke, and the smoke would go out the windows.

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So I got acquainted with everybody. Do you recall any teachers at Drake that were influential in your life? No, none that really influenced me. I had trouble with economics.

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I thought I knew what I was doing, but the teacher never agreed. And he finally agreed that since I was an A+ student in bookkeeping, that if he could keep books, he'd give me a grade. I think that's about what it amounted to.

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And then there was another little fellow. He must have taught another math course or something. I thoroughly enjoyed him. Nobody really influenced me.

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Right. Then, at Drake, would you have the summers off? Would you get summers off, and did you come back to Washington, or what did you do? As part of the secretarial science, or whatever I called it before, I can't even remember

00:29:04.180 - 00:29:39.860

that far. We had to apply for jobs in the spring. I was just there one year. So I had to apply for jobs and one of the places that I went was Meredith Publishing Company and The man to interview me was a man who taught an income tax course I took. And the other man was one I had babysat with their children.

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Now I knew very few people in Des Moines, and that's just another little miracle. And I had had library experience, so I went to work for Meredith Publishing then in the research department, and so I didn't go back to Drake. With your love of drama, did you do any community theater while you were at Drake?

00:30:02.020 - 00:30:31.900

No, I didn't. Oh yes, I did. I applied, I tried out for a part, and one of the girls in the house was a drama student, and she wanted me to try out, so I tried out and got apart in the play. When was the first time that you saw an airplane that made you spark your interest?

00:30:33.240 - 00:30:57.140

There was a Ford tri-motor that was invented and built, and they would send it around to different dealerships, and they would land on a plot of acre of ground outside of a town, and people would come and you would give them rides. And it was an advertising bit for Ford.

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And I do not know, I suppose I was between ten and twelve. We were the first people, my family was the first people, to ride in it, along with the mayor of the town and I could not wait to get on an airplane again. Did your mother take a ride?

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I don't think mother got in the plane. She wasn't really that brave about it, I don't think. Dad loved it. And then when was the next time that you saw an airplane that sparked your interest?

00:31:36.020 - 00:31:49.340

between 10 and 12, then the next time? I went to work for Des Moines Flying Service. So I had lots of airplanes. What made you decide to go to work for Des Moines Flying Service?

00:31:50.260 - 00:32:13.940

Well I hadn't been very long at Meredith's, and I was told that I was up for promotion, to be a regular part instead of a secretary of the research department, but that my teacher I almost forgot her, Miss Kester, a maiden lady. We just liked each other.

00:32:14.760 - 00:32:37.680

When you asked me about teachers who influenced me, I forgot momentarily about her. But anyhow, she had done some work out at the Des Moines Flying Service in the airport. And so she called and said that they were needing help out there, if I'd be interested. So I called and talked with my father, and he says, "Well, make a list of why you should

00:32:38.420 - 00:32:54.360

stay at Meredith's or why you should stay at—go to the airport." Well, all I had down for the airport was, "I'd love to go." So I went. And I worked there for CPT, did typing.

00:32:54.800 - 00:33:11.220

What is CPT? pilot training that I was trying to get into in Washington when they had it, but I wasn't chosen. There were just two girls applied, but I wasn't chosen.

00:33:12.220 - 00:33:25.460

So that's what I did at the airport. Got in a plane every time I had a chance. Okay, when you would get in a plane, would you just go for a ride, or did you? I finally took lessons.

00:33:26.280 - 00:33:37.000

Who was your first instructor? Bill Bachman. Do you recall the first time you went up with an instructor to learn to fly? How that made you feel?

00:33:37.580 - 00:33:52.200

I loved every minute of it. I kind of liked Bill Bachman too. I dated him some. And did your mother and dad know that you were now learning to fly?

00:33:52.240 - 00:34:01.900

Yes. And how did they feel about it? Did your mom approve? They trusted me, I guess.

00:34:02.540 - 00:34:18.200

Yes, they trusted me, because Mother and I were very confident. We were confident all my life. I missed her terribly when she was gone, because I'd always talk to her, talk things over with her.

00:34:19.100 - 00:34:40.660

When you began learning to fly, were there other girls who were also learning? No, because there were—traffic on the airport was watched closely, and except for CPT, there wasn't a lot of flying. And if I hadn't been an employee, I doubt if I would have gotten to take lessons.

00:34:41.740 - 00:34:54.820

What made you think you could learn to fly when you didn't personally know any girls who were learning to fly? Didn't that seem to be something that just the boys were going to do? You never let that bother me.

00:34:58.190 - 00:35:06.540

Do you recall your solo? Yes. Tell us about it. Well, it didn't take me long.

00:35:07.640 - 00:35:25.400

I was fast there and I was fast at Sweetwater, solo. And I made a good landing, and I thought, "Well, I'll just turn around and go back." So I turned around and they told me that I ground looped and I said, "I did that on purpose."

00:35:25.400 - 00:35:34.980

I never did convince them otherwise. What kind of airplane? Piper J3. I think it's a Piper Cub.

00:35:37.020 - 00:35:56.040

That was all my training at that airport. And my instructor had some kind of spatial class he'd taken in St. Louis. He was colorblind, so he couldn't get in the service or anything, but he had had this special so he knew what was required of training.

00:35:57.540 - 00:36:04.740

So that was a great advantage for me. What was that airport mainly used for? Was it commercial? Commercial.

00:36:06.540 - 00:36:25.980

As you were learning to fly, did you also take ground school courses of any kind? No, I never got into a ground school course. So I never got my private license. I passed the flying test, but with everything happening at once, I never got to ground school.

00:36:28.700 - 00:36:43.740

When did you hear about a training program being initiated to teach women to fly military aircraft? You know, I can't remember. I know that I think the first letter I wrote, I wrote to Nancy Love.

00:36:45.160 - 00:37:06.300

Now why I did it, I don't have any idea. It's just one of those things that happened that I didn't have any control over, evidently. After you wrote the letter, then what was the next step you took? Well, I got a letter back.

00:37:08.260 - 00:37:39.460

I have a folder with all this in it. Then I wrote to Jackie Cochran and got an application, I guess, or something. Then I had to go take a physical someplace, and I was given a date for that up at Sioux City or someplace close, wherever Jimmy Stewart was stationed.

00:37:40.760 - 00:38:09.860

And went up there to take the tests, took time off from work to take the physical. And ran out of money, but I stopped at a penny store and got enough that—wrote a check. I'd worked for pennies, so I knew they cashed checks, so I got a pair of gloves and made it up for more money so I could get home, part by train, part by bus, because that was

00:38:09.720 - 00:38:39.700

a long ways up from Des Moines in those days. And that's how, and then I went home for a month to wait. Were your parents aware of what you were doing? Oh yes. I never hid anything from my parents. When you came home to wait, did you work when you came back? No, I just sat and played solitaire for a month. Scared to

00:38:39.700 - 00:38:55.620

wouldn't get called. What did this instructor that you kind of liked, what was his reaction when you applied? He was pleased. He taught me what he had learned, so it would help me.

00:38:57.380 - 00:39:18.660

He was real pleased with it. I think he thought he had done something for the war effort. When you finally received orders to report, how did you get from Washington to Texas? By train.

00:39:20.380 - 00:39:47.320

I went with a girl that was in our class, 44W5, her name was Meredith Newell, and she had taken some private lessons from us just when I first started to work for the Des Moines I did not really know her too well, except that she would come and sign in at the office. But we got together and went down together on the train.

00:39:48.760 - 00:40:16.300

Went down to Fort Worth, Dallas, wherever the airport was at that time, and then the chicken train on to Sweetwater, where we sat on suitcases and stopped at every little port. Chicken train, meaning it was pretty crowded. And stopped every place.

00:40:17.220 - 00:40:32.520

I may have the wrong word there, it may be a hog stop, I don't know. But the majority of people on that train were what kind of people? Were they service people? Most every train was back then.

00:40:33.600 - 00:40:39.360

Okay, we're going to have to change tapes. Okay. You're moving right along. Chicken train.

00:40:39.440 - 00:40:50.580

A chicken train. There is another word. It's another animal, but what is it? Well, it gives me an instant picture of feathers flying as the train goes down the track.

00:40:50.600 - 00:41:00.360

Well, they did have chickens on it. And it's like the buses that stop every little stop. The little old lady gets on with the chicken under her arm. So that same idea.

00:41:00.380 - 00:41:02.980

Would you like a drink, drink, drink, drink? I would. I would. I would.

00:41:02.980 - 00:41:15.000

I would. I would. When you arrived at Sweetwater, what happened? Did you go to the hotel?

00:41:15.180 - 00:41:34.600

Did you go to the base? I think we went straight to the base. Of course, being from lush Iowa, you can imagine how I felt about Sweetwater with one little tiny tree. Can you describe the countryside as you rode out to that base?

00:41:34.760 - 00:41:43.900

What did you see? Nothing. No life, no nothing. Sweetwater wasn't a bad town, though.

00:41:43.980 - 00:41:57.980

It was kind of a pretty little town. I didn't go there very often. Can you describe how you felt when you saw all the airplanes and the different airplanes out at Avenger Field.

00:42:01.020 - 00:42:18.820

Had you ever been up in anything larger than those small airplanes, the Cubs? Yes, I had been up in them. We had a Beechcraft at Des Moines Flying Service, and of course it was a commercial airport, so there were big planes that came in, as big as there were at the time.

00:42:21.080 - 00:42:42.840

And so it was just another airport. I mean, I was not impressed or not impressed. What was your, what did you feel that you were going to be doing, what the WASP training program was about and what it was for?

00:42:46.700 - 00:43:10.700

Well, since my brother was colorblind and couldn't fly, I felt maybe I was helping that way. Sometimes I don't think, as I look back on it, maybe it wasn't a real thought, but it was in my mind that I could do something.

00:43:12.780 - 00:43:30.580

And why do you feel that this program was put together? What was it for? To promote women in the service. To bring them up as equals for what they were able to do.

00:43:33.780 - 00:43:48.560

Describe some of the rules and regulations, things you could do and couldn't do, and what the training program, how long you would be there and what you would be doing while you were at Avenger? BK: Well, we were to take flying lessons.

00:43:49.010 - 00:44:15.380

We were to learn to fly, and fly the different aircraft they had there, which is Stearman 17, BT-13s, and AT-6s, and go to ground school, which I don't think I excelled in at all. I hope they didn't keep any records. All I did was want to fly.

00:44:19.520 - 00:44:40.800

Martha, describe the barracks where you lived. Well it was a wooden room with a bathroom and showers on one side, and cots spaced evenly. I do not even remember how many cots were in a room. Seven?

00:44:41.280 - 00:44:53.540

Six? Seven cots? And all neatly made up. I don't think we were inspected too deeply, but they were always made.

00:44:57.880 - 00:45:15.360

And it was living close to people, but you know, I liked them all. They were nice people, and I thoroughly enjoyed sharing living with people. DC: Describe your bay mates as best you remember. Oh, they were all different.

00:45:16.400 - 00:45:42.340

From California, we had snow the first of the year, about a foot high, and you know that means there were lots of drifts and things. And we took picture after picture after picture of all the California girls in the snow. And it was cold, colder than it was in Iowa.

00:45:45.800 - 00:46:08.180

Do you remember any one particular bay mate? No, I had two or three girls that I did a lot with, but they were not always my bay mates. There were a couple women that had transferred from the WACs.

00:46:08.460 - 00:46:34.400

They were high up in rank in the WACs, but they were given a choice to stay in the WACs or to take flying since it was available. So two of them, and they were good friends of mine. Kelly: Any one particular trainee that you became friends with that you have remained

00:46:34.600 - 00:46:55.680

friends? Peggy Nispel was from Nebraska and she and I even visited back and forth a few times after we were married and I corresponded with her for a long time. Beverly Moses was another one. She was killed in around Las Vegas, I believe,

00:46:55.680 - 00:47:15.740

after we were out in the field. She had worked at Meredith's when I did. Describe your schedule. What would a typical day be like at Avenger Field?

00:47:16.160 - 00:47:37.900

We got up very early, and I'm not an early person. Had breakfasts. And, we either flew or had ground school, and we had physical fitness. That was funny.

00:47:39.660 - 00:48:04.120

Shortly after we got to the base, some high-ranking military man came to the base to inspect. So our gym teacher decided that she would give us exercises. So she put us through the works, and for two days, maybe three days after that, we had to help each other in and out of the airplanes.

00:48:04.980 - 00:48:16.540

We were so stiff, she apologized all over the place, but she had to show her stuff. And we suffered. That was painful. (Laughter)

00:48:16.620 - 00:48:32.300

Describe some of your ground school courses. What did you really like in ground school? I didn't like any of it really, and as I said, I didn't devote a lot of time to it, and I probably would have—was not their star student.

00:48:32.600 - 00:48:35.760

Right. Morse code? Hmm? Morse code?

00:48:36.760 - 00:48:49.480

I could never get the Morse code. I think it was the same reason that I can't carry a tune. I could not get the Morse code. But why was Morse code important?

00:48:51.520 - 00:49:04.940

I guess it was used someplace, I never found it. What did you start off flying? What was the first aircraft you flew? The Stearman, and I loved it.

00:49:05.520 - 00:49:27.840

You could fly by the seat of your pants, and I loved the Stearman. I had an instructor by the name of Fox, F-U-C-H. He was kind of like a farmer and just a nice man. I enjoyed him thoroughly.

00:49:28.620 - 00:49:52.980

He was very good and very careful of you and everything. Anything unusual happen while you were flying in primary training? No, I don't think so. Describe the auxiliary fields and what were they used for?

00:49:59.460 - 00:50:22.620

That's where I ate donuts. Well, we were carted out there in trucks, and I suppose we were practicing landings, but it was just part of what we had to do. I never objected.

00:50:23.110 - 00:50:37.080

Do you recall your solo? Yes, it was really before I should have soloed. So I was doing well at that early stage of flying. Did they throw you in the wishing well?

00:50:37.500 - 00:50:58.020

No. While you were in primary training, did any of your baymates wash out? Yes, I don't remember how many washed out. The 73 of us graduated, I think, but I don't remember. I just hoped it wasn't me.

00:50:59.480 - 00:51:19.820

What was your understanding that if you finished the course and graduated, what did you think you would be doing after you graduated? We were to be in the training command of the Air Force. When you finished your primary training, then what did you do?

00:51:23.490 - 00:51:39.580

Went into AT-6s, I think, right away. I think we just skipped over BT-13s. We did do some flying in them later, but I think we went right to AT-6s. Do you recall any of your cross-country flights?

00:51:41.640 - 00:51:57.880

Yes, I was glad of the railroads. So, I could keep in line. And it was such a different climate and type of country from Iowa that it was not very pretty.

00:51:59.720 - 00:52:19.380

And we went to Amarillo and got stuck there for two or three extra nights, and that was bad. I mean, there wasn't anything much for us to do, and we had to keep ready to go back all the time.

00:52:20.100 - 00:52:47.240

That was not good, but we couldn't go east because they were having tornadoes, so they had us go west. Martha, when you got to Sweetwater, what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make? Well, a flying instructor had gone down there the month before I went.

00:52:48.960 - 00:53:10.220

And he had worked at Des Moines Flying Service, and I had ridden to work with him. And he had a wife and a daughter. Pam was about a year old. So I was not allowed to be with instructors, but Pam and Darlene would come get me on weekends,

00:53:11.020 - 00:53:30.620

I spent most weekends with them. And so I didn't get homesick. And I guess I just wanted it so bad I just accepted what came and I didn't fight it. I was happy.

00:53:31.380 - 00:53:51.640

Right. As you were in training, every month or so a class would graduate. What part would your class play in that graduation? In walking a parade in uniform, and our uniform at that time was the khaki pants and the white

00:53:51.760 - 00:54:02.580

shirts. And then what did you fly in? What do you mean? What kind of uniform did you fly in?

00:54:03.100 - 00:54:19.560

Oh, we started out with cast-off for men, a pair of coveralls. Not overalls, yeah, overalls. They were all too big. We had to roll up the sleeves, roll up the pants.

00:54:19.620 - 00:54:32.660

I was only five foot four, and we were all rolled up. And leather jackets, we had leather jackets. But they were all hand-me-downs. there was nothing new.

00:54:34.860 - 00:54:46.440

Do you recall as you went to the flight line or the mess hall and so forth, how you got there? Did you just each one go on your own? We went in formation always and sang.

00:54:47.660 - 00:54:58.140

Had some real cute songs. Would you recall any of those songs? Since I can't carry a tune, no. But I did enjoy the songs and everybody else's singing.

00:54:58.720 - 00:55:07.620

But that was part of the fun. Do you recall any of the titles? No. Rugged but right.

00:55:10.060 - 00:55:21.860

I don't remember. Okay. While you were in training, did you know what the girls were doing who had already graduated? No, we didn't hear much about that.

00:55:23.300 - 00:55:45.640

At graduation, do you recall any top generals or celebrities coming for graduations? Beall: Nothing that impressed me. Kelly: Okay. As you progressed on and finished your training in the 86th, then what did you do?

00:55:49.900 - 00:56:14.520

training in the link trainer and then we flew with the instruments. Okay. And what was the importance of doing the link trainer? To prepare you for doing, being able to fly blind. Let me ask you, describe what a link trainer is.

00:56:15.580 - 00:56:36.720

Well, it's a box made to fix up like an airplane, and so that you would learn to fly by instruments rather than by sense, which I think is one of the hardest things ever. I thought I was lucky to get through that. I kept thinking I was doing okay, and I don't think I was, but I did manage to get through

00:56:36.840 - 00:56:50.560

it, and I had more of that in one of the fields I was. As you progressed from primary and on into the different phases, did you keep the same instructors? No.

00:56:51.660 - 00:57:13.100

And I really, except for Mr. Fox, I can't remember the other instructors. There's a lot of things about Sweetwater that I must have blanked things out. I cannot remember the mess hall. I can remember having to eat lettuce with no dressings, I didn't like the dressing.

00:57:14.500 - 00:57:28.360

And I remember having liver that was just like dried leather. I didn't eat liver for years. But I can't tell you where it was on the base. I don't remember it.

00:57:28.540 - 00:57:46.340

There was a snack bar, which I didn't go to very often, if I went at all. I can't remember that. And I don't remember any instructor. I have records of it, I'm sure, in my logbook, but Mr. Fox is the only one I remember.

00:57:47.810 - 00:57:59.620

Do you recall any incidents that happened there, any accidents while you were in training that stand out? No. Any of the girls getting killed?

00:58:01.020 - 00:58:20.820

I don't think so while I was there. How long were you there? December 7, 1943 to June 27, 1944. As you approached graduation time, did your uniforms change?

00:58:21.640 - 00:58:30.880

Yes. Jackie Cochran saw to our uniforms. They were gorgeous. Materials never bust.

00:58:31.400 - 00:58:46.900

I would love to have been able to get some of those suits right now. They were beautiful. They came down from Neiman Marcus and measured us, and so when we graduated, we had the uniforms. What color were those uniforms?

00:58:50.220 - 00:59:05.420

I just said it the other day, like a midnight blue. Santiago. Santiago blue, the name of the book that was written. For your graduation, who presented you your wings?

00:59:08.380 - 00:59:28.680

I don't remember. I know that my friend Darlene pinned my wings on me. And was your friend Darlene in your class? Who was Darlene? Darlene was the instructor's wife that was such a good friend of mine. We had lived close to each other in Des Moines and we did things together.

00:59:31.200 - 00:59:53.200

Do you recall Jacqueline Cochran ever coming into a venture? She was there sometime because she signed a dollar bill for me. So I know she was there sometime. Okay. Before you graduated and you knew that you were going to get orders to go somewhere, did you have a choice?

00:59:54.460 - 01:00:09.940

No. Okay. On graduation, when you received your orders, what did your orders say? Where were you going? Gardner Field, Taft, California. Were there other girls from your class going with you?

01:00:09.980 - 01:00:25.280

I was--the other girl going from our class was in the other half, so I did not know her except just who she was. And she lived in California, so I met her, and she met me at the train and everything,

01:00:25.480 - 01:00:38.160

and took care of me while we went to the base. Is there anything about the training that I've left out that you would like to tell us about? About the training? Uh-huh.

01:00:44.780 - 01:00:56.240

No, it was just a wonderful experience and I lived every minute of it. Okay. When you graduated and got your orders, then you were given some time off. Where did you go? I went home.

01:00:56.420 - 01:01:14.480

Tell me how that felt. Did you wear your uniform? Yes. How did that make you feel? And what did your parents, how did it make them feel? Well, I guess I was, didn't wear it too often.

01:01:18.420 - 01:01:51.180

My brother didn't get to fly, and he was going to go overseas. I think he was studying, he was an armorer. I don't know what that all includes. But I tried, not consciously, but when I look back, I tried not to bring too much attention

01:01:51.220 - 01:02:04.840

to me. DC: Was he still at home when you came home from training? He had already gone. At the end of your leave time, what happened then?

01:02:06.340 - 01:02:27.020

How did you get to Gardner? Oh, I got on a train and it took me to California. You learned a lot. You talk to different people and you got to know people, rude ones and nice ones, all

01:02:27.160 - 01:02:42.600

kinds. It was a new experience for me. And it was tiring, hot and tiring. But you're going to something special, so you just go along.

01:02:43.290 - 01:02:56.460

Kelly: When you got to Gardner, to whom did you report? Beall: I don't know. Probably Carol told me who to report to. Kelly: Where did you live?

01:02:57.130 - 01:03:18.500

Beall: Barracks, with the nurses, I think. And then what was supposedly going to be your assignment? Teach, instruct on the BT-13. Tell us about your experience at Gardner.

01:03:22.240 - 01:03:39.780

Well, we were, spent most of our times flying, but we never were really given instruction or being prepared for it, I did not think. You just took it as it came along.

01:03:41.000 - 01:04:06.340

I think I questioned what they were doing with us at the time, but of course was not in on any problems they were having, which I learned later that they did have at that time. Was Gardner a camouflaged base, or is it farther from the ocean so it wasn't camouflaged?

01:04:06.340 - 01:04:20.500

Becky: It wasn't camouflaged. It was on this side of the mountains. It was hot. I learned what heat was in California.

01:04:24.080 - 01:04:46.920

And it was like the desert. How long did you stay there? From August, I don't remember right now. And then you got orders to go somewhere else.

01:04:46.920 - 01:05:03.500

Where did you go? To go to Marfa, Texas. And there we were—I found I did have a few hours, very few, on a plane, but we really weren't allowed on the flight line.

01:05:05.380 - 01:05:28.640

The colonel of the base was a little Irishman, and he didn't want women around because there was no place for recreation. And they were two little towns, very few people, I suppose maybe two or three hundred people, and there was just no place for women.

01:05:29.580 - 01:05:44.740

And he just got rid of all the wives that he could and all the wax that he could, and he was not letting us stay. So we were shipped immediately to Victorville, California. He did it, got it done in a hurry.

01:05:45.420 - 01:05:53.620

He was quite a man to do that. How did you get from Marfa out to Victorville? Did they fly you? Oh, no.

01:05:56.300 - 01:06:19.280

Okay, when you got to Victorville, then describe your experience at Victorville. Well, Victorville, we were supposed to learn to fly the AT-11, which was a twin-engine plane to carry students that were learning the Norden bombsight, and we were to fly them for that.

01:06:21.180 - 01:06:47.060

We would go up to a certain altitude and fix the plane so it would fly evenly so that they could work on dropping bombs. But we never really got allowed to do that. We were just in training, spent most of our time learning the AT-11, which I loved to

01:06:47.080 - 01:07:04.820

fly. So we really didn't, I didn't feel like accomplished much there either. Could you take that AT-11 and go on cross-country flights? We didn't.

01:07:05.200 - 01:07:20.420

No. Did you have an instructor, a male instructor, who checked you out on it? How did you get your experience? You were first pilot, and you had a second pilot, which was an instructor.

01:07:21.500 - 01:07:38.680

Where did you live at Victorville? In barracks. Do you recall any social activities at Victorville? No, but I had a couple of boys that I went with a time or two.

01:07:39.120 - 01:07:50.780

I was really with Carol most of the time, Carol Britton, who I was stationed with all the time. She was a dear friend. But she had not been a classmate?

01:07:52.020 - 01:08:16.820

She was from 44W5, but she was in the other half. She was a B and I was an M, so that was the dividing line. We went to—saw quite a few picture shows there. There were other planes that were flying on the field, and that was always depressing

01:08:16.820 - 01:08:34.240

because they were having trouble with them. So they'd almost draw numbers to see who was going to come back that day and who wouldn't. That was a little bit depressing on that field. And maybe we'd fly in the morning, then you'd have the afternoons.

01:08:34.420 - 01:08:58.840

I'd always just be over in the flight line hoping that I could go up in something, somebody would want to do something and I could go up with them, you know. And one day I was out and came back and went to pick up my mail, and the guy looked at me, the postmaster looked at me, and he says, "I just pulled your mail out of the box.

01:08:59.230 - 01:09:17.400

You were just killed." But it wasn't me, it was Michelle, somebody or the other, that was stationed there on the base. And that was my first real meeting with death in the mosques.

01:09:18.560 - 01:09:35.680

And she was my size, and she was always going out when she could to fly, and begging rides from people. They were testing or trying to find out what was wrong with some of the—well, they were twin engine bombers.

01:09:36.260 - 01:09:54.540

I think B-26s was the number. And they had seen her go out, and we were the same size. And it was her that was killed. Do you know why that accident happened?

01:09:55.580 - 01:10:07.760

No. I am sure something failed within the plane. I think she was up in one of those. So it was probably a plane.

01:10:09.220 - 01:10:34.920

They had come back from active duty, the planes had. Do you recall how you felt when you heard that the WASP would be deactivated? And how did you hear? All I know is that we heard about the 20th of October, that between the 20th of November

01:10:35.060 - 01:10:55.300

and the 20th of December we were to be disbanded. I was disappointed because I thought, "Oh, I've got to make some decisions here." Life wasn't going to be as easy from then on. They took us off the flight line immediately.

01:10:55.680 - 01:11:19.480

So there we were, supposed to stay there until they told us we should go and do nothing, which irritated. In the meantime, a boy that I had dated at home, I had been corresponding with him, and I met him in Los Angeles, went to Carol's with her, and met him in Los Angeles.

01:11:22.000 - 01:11:47.280

He was even nicer than I thought he was. So shortly after, he was on leave from the Marine Corps, and he called, and I talked to him, and we decided we'd get married. He was somebody I'd dated one whole summer, and I'd known him since he was a little boy

01:11:47.160 - 01:12:00.380

because his aunt lived across the street and we used to play together when we were children. And so- So over the telephone you decided to get married? Yes.

01:12:00.480 - 01:12:19.360

Well, we had talked about it that night we were together in Los Angeles. He was there for a wedding for a friend, and he had hotel reservations all over the place for all his guests. So there was a place for both of us.

01:12:20.900 - 01:12:35.100

What were the qualities, Martha, that attracted you to him? He had the same background I did. He was a Methodist. He was from Wayland, a small town just south of us.

01:12:35.200 - 01:12:50.260

His father was a pharmacist there. I had dated him quite a bit one summer. Liked him very much. Had he come to Washington to go to school?

01:12:50.840 - 01:12:56.020

No. He went to school in Wayland? Oh, the Wayland boys dated the Washington girls. Oh, okay.

01:12:57.640 - 01:13:08.080

In fact, it was almost a blind date, our first one. We just barely knew each other. Oh, good. And did you set a date at that time that you would get married?

01:13:08.720 - 01:13:38.000

because he was on leave and so we had to be married within three weeks so that's when I just checked out but I checked out properly went to every place on the base like I was supposed to didn't keep any uniform except the winter coat I knew I'd need that in Iowa if I went back to Iowa and about I'd say ten years

01:13:37.880 - 01:14:00.820

after I got out, I was going through my WASP stuff one day and found out that I had a dishonorable discharge. It says "Without Honor" signed by the Civil Service, because we were civil servants. And I was crushed.

01:14:02.090 - 01:14:16.380

I thought, "How could that be?" I had done all the right things. I think we were supposed to do it for two weeks or something, but I have a paper that says on the back of it that something was waived, and so I thought everything was all

01:14:16.420 - 01:14:32.380

right. So I left and came home. Carol took me to the train in some desolate place in the desert, not far from Victorville, and we were married in three weeks.

01:14:32.920 - 01:14:47.080

I gave my mother three weeks to plan a wedding. My daughter did the same thing to me. Have you gotten that changed, that dishonorable, since then? Well, I didn't do anything.

01:14:47.790 - 01:15:05.120

I was mad. And finally, several more many years, I wrote a letter to somebody that was in the WASP newsletter. I never heard an answer.

01:15:06.100 - 01:15:25.580

Explain the circumstances and what should I do. I had no need of any veterans. Because that doesn't mean that much except the pride you have in it. And so then two years ago, I guess it was,

01:15:26.120 - 01:15:47.260

my sons got up at arms about it and wanted to know more about their Uncle Jack who was killed and about their father, who was a Marine Corps pilot. And so they wrote their—the one that's in—the professor wrote to the senators and stuff in Illinois

01:15:47.980 - 01:16:12.700

and asked for information, and then wrote one letter back to one of them with my story in it. And, immediately, I got from someplace in Texas, I got veteran status with the medals, the two medals we were entitled to, which I did not even know we were entitled to. And it was all settled.

01:16:17.260 - 01:16:23.920

But it was an awful blow. So I would not talk about the WASPs. I would not give talks. I would not talk to anything about it.

01:16:24.500 - 01:16:44.700

I never talked about it much at home because my brother was killed. And completely changed our family. Okay, let's go to the happier thing. You got on the train from Victorville and came home.

01:16:44.840 - 01:16:58.960

Came home. Tell me about that wedding and the plans. Well, the train ride home was interesting because I was sitting next to a young man who was going home to be married, so we slept on each other's shoulder and just talked.

01:16:59.400 - 01:17:16.000

He was the nicest young man. You know, you met many wonderful people in the circumstances you were broken into in the service. And so I came home, and Bill and I were married, and then we went back to—

01:17:16.180 - 01:17:37.980

Let me stop you and ask you, tell me about the wedding. Oh, the wedding. Well, my sister stood up with me, and he had a friend stand up with him, and they were both over six foot tall, and both of them weighed about 175 to 200 pounds, and they

01:17:38.060 - 01:17:51.900

were in their uniforms. Bill wore his jockey suit, he called it, and Dan just wore his regular uniform, and it was just for family. Who married you?

01:17:52.360 - 01:17:56.940

The Methodist minister. Was it in your home? It was in the church. In the church.

01:17:57.000 - 01:18:13.280

It was in the church, and we had a reception afterwards in the church. What was your dress like? Very simple, because there wasn't a lot available. But you had met his parents?

01:18:14.200 - 01:18:37.340

Yes, I knew his parents. His aunt had lived across the street from us, and his mother was very active and Methodist. And when I went to a convention at a town nearby for young people, it wasn't called Epworth League then, I think, and she was in charge of it and stuff, so I had met her.

01:18:40.940 - 01:19:11.840

So, after you got married, where did you go on your honeymoon? Back to the naval base, or the Marine base, in—although he was flying out of Santa Ana. He was a Marine Corps pilot on Corsair, and was in Central Pacific someplace. Roy and Nomar were the two little islands they flew off of, atolls really, and they

01:19:11.900 - 01:19:28.400

were having trouble with the Corsair. And Lindbergh came out to help them with it. So he had met and knew Lindbergh, which was a big thing in his life. And he went there after you were married?

01:19:29.720 - 01:19:50.860

No, he was there before. After we were married, we were stationed at DeHatchipie, California, where the woman's prison is, up in the mountains. Lamb and sheep was about all you could have to eat up there.

01:19:51.860 - 01:20:05.280

And then— While he was flying, how did you occupy your time? We were at Santa Ana first. We lived in Laguna Beach, is where we went.

01:20:07.240 - 01:20:23.680

Got an apartment there at Laguna Beach, right close to the ocean. His folks came out and visited us while we were there. And he was instructing. Levy: Was he still in Corsairs?

01:20:24.870 - 01:20:45.520

Levy: No, I don't think so. I don't know what he was in on his base. I don't think that I—and we met a young couple there that we did everything with. So we stayed there for quite a while, and then we were sent up to Tehachapi in the desert.

01:20:45.920 - 01:21:04.980

He was at—I can't remember the air base, but we lived up in Tehachapi, and that's and I got pregnant, trying to, and we made it. We figured we'd lost my brother, we could have one of our own. But I was sicker than a dog.

01:21:05.740 - 01:21:20.280

Twenty-four hours a day, dry heaves. So I was miserable. And then he started passing out in the – when he was down in the desert, the base on the desert, Mojave Desert, Mojave Base.

01:21:21.300 - 01:21:39.580

And he started passing out on some of his maneuvers. So he had nose stoppage. So they sent us down to Coronado for surgery for that. So we barely got back to the base, and they were to go to Japan, getting ready to go to

01:21:39.660 - 01:21:56.400

Japan. And it had infected his tonsils, so he had to have his tonsils out. So then they sent us home on leave, and the war ended. And at that point you had a little boy.

01:21:57.260 - 01:22:20.100

Yes, I had a little boy. Okay. So when you came back to Washington, then did he get out of the service? Yes. We talked about it, and I wouldn't have minded staying in the service, and he thought he would too. But then my dad offered him a job at the garage, and he thought he would like that.

01:22:20.100 - 01:22:34.820

He'd studied to be a coach. That's what he got his degree in. But, so, he decided he'd like to try the Ford business. So then we bought it years later, and it was ours.

01:22:36.240 - 01:22:44.000

Okay. Okay. I'm going to give you a rubber pin to play with, so you won't make any noise. Was I making noise?

01:22:44.200 - 01:22:53.640

Just a little. I don't need to play with anything. [Laughter] >> Martha, I am so, so, so, so [audio cuts out]

01:22:53.810 - 01:23:04.340

>> Some place. I can not find it. Mike looked through my things the other day. I looked through my things just thinking

01:23:04.340 - 01:23:14.780

it was on something I was missing. The paper that said about it. And I have another paper and it didn't say anything about it. But I know I read that that day.

01:23:14.780 - 01:23:24.260

>> I started to say, are you sure now? That's just not in your. They had just the ones that were giving the bad name to them. I think, though, that's why Cochran didn't want us in the WAFs.

01:23:24.950 - 01:23:29.080

Oh, I think so, too. In the WACs. Because they didn't have a good reputation? No.

01:23:30.280 - 01:23:41.660

No, it was altogether a different thing. Yeah, it just--I know it's my other daughter was telling--it's a big bitch. No, no, no, go back. He's working for her dad.

01:23:41.720 - 01:23:51.680

Right. Okay. Right. After you came back to Washington and he started working in the automobile business, then you

01:23:51.760 - 01:24:13.580

had another child. Yes, four years later I had a daughter, Edith Suzanne, so she'd be fifty-two, no, fifty-one this year. And six years later I had another son at thirty-five, but was either then or not have any more.

01:24:17.360 - 01:24:34.500

So, Martha, tell us about bringing those children up. How were you and your husband involved in their activities? Oh, Bill was a very good father. He helped me before it was really the thing to do to help with the family.

01:24:34.920 - 01:25:01.740

And, we lived close to my folks because my mother had had strokes and you couldn't find help. So we had moved close to my folks. And, even though they were far apart, and I got to really enjoy them, each one as a baby, it was, they were like all other children.

01:25:01.920 - 01:25:18.920

Bill was an only child, so he had a hard time adjusting to the way siblings treated each other. Everything went well. The garage did fairly well.

01:25:19.120 - 01:25:30.200

It was in a small town. You don't make a fortune, and you fight for every penny. But we got along fine. I never worked while I was married.

01:25:30.200 - 01:25:36.800

>> Were your children able to enjoy your parents and your husband's parents? >> Yes. >> Their grandparents? >> Uh-huh.

01:25:38.340 - 01:26:09.000

Bill's dad died And I was pregnant with Mike. I do not remember it that way, but it must have been. So he never knew this.

01:26:09.320 - 01:26:23.200

None of the children knew their grandfather on Bill's side, just the mother. You ever hear of the Tri-T Society? She was national president, Bill's mother was. She was not always active in that.

01:26:25.280 - 01:26:51.500

She was a go-getter. What are some of the values that you tried to instill in your children? Respect, manners, which is part of respect, honesty. Mike tried that to the nth degree, because he had a girlfriend he went with all through

01:26:51.700 - 01:27:07.280

high school. They were married at nineteen and twenty, and they're now married thirty-five years. So I guess it was meant to be. How were you involved in the schools when your children were growing up?

01:27:07.340 - 01:27:27.880

Were you in PTA? I was for the first two, and Jeff often asked me why I wasn't for the third, and I just explain Jeff, I'd had it. Well, I was homeroom mother for Jeff, so it wasn't that I didn't do things for him,

01:27:27.980 - 01:27:42.780

because I was homeroom mother and made cookies and made Santa Claus's and that sort of thing. DC: Describe vacation times when your children were growing up. Did you and your husband have vacations? Yes, we took vacations.

01:27:43.840 - 01:28:04.060

Describe one of those vacations. Well, the first one we took, we went to Florida and took Mike, who would be six, and left Susie with my sister in Chicago, and kind of toured around Florida and found a wonderful place to stay on the Gulf side.

01:28:05.460 - 01:28:19.520

And that was the first one. And then about every year or every other year, we'd go down to Florida or we'd go to the mountains in Colorado. Went to a dude ranch one time, Northwest things.

01:28:20.300 - 01:28:38.160

So Bill believed in - you couldn't take money with you, but my dad was always afraid he'd live through the Depression, and he had a little more fear. And I said, "I'm so glad that Bill had us do the things we did, or we wouldn't have had that much life."

01:28:38.160 - 01:29:00.940

So we just kind of didn't pay much attention to my dad and went ahead with our vacations. And so we took family vacations at least once a year. Tell me about your children now. Well, Michael lives in Iowa City, which is close by.

01:29:02.500 - 01:29:22.860

And he has one daughter who's twenty-eight and two weeks ago had scoliosis surgery for her back. She has an eighteen-month-old daughter. She can't lift or anything, so we're going to a time of adjustment.

01:29:23.820 - 01:29:40.480

Her mother is always babysat, so that's Connie, Mike's wife, since Stacy was little. And she's babysat, so it's a convenience there. And she's working at the university, so the insurance is good and that. So it was necessary that she have it done.

01:29:42.160 - 01:29:59.340

She'd fought it for years. And Mike has never—right out of high school, they got married. And so he has worked as a parts man, and he worked—he sold cars for a while, he sold insurance for a while.

01:30:00.100 - 01:30:15.500

Connie does her babysitting, which is very rewarding, money-wise. So they've gotten along very well. And he's now a line manager for a company that just moved into Iowa City, because the dealership where he worked closed.

01:30:18.000 - 01:30:37.060

So they're happy, have always been very happy, and have learned to dance. Stacey got married, they took dance lessons so they could dance at the wedding, and they never stopped. I gave him dance lessons when he was in junior high, but that didn't make any difference.

01:30:37.250 - 01:30:45.740

He never liked to dance. Connie would have loved to have. So anyhow, they're going dancing most every weekend, and they just are meeting more people and having more fun.

01:30:47.400 - 01:31:06.060

Susie, my daughter, had just started her first year of college when her father died, and she wanted nursing. So she went up to Iowa and took her first two years, and then the third year she went into the nursing.

01:31:07.620 - 01:31:23.600

And she kind of had some of her own ideas, and she was a straight-A student, so she decided she didn't like the way they were teaching it, so she let it out. So I went up. Here I was, knew nothing.

01:31:23.780 - 01:31:40.400

Bill had always tended to everything. Had to go up to Iowa City to see the head of the School of Nursing, and she says, "Well," she says, "Susie's a straight-A student, and I want her to stay that way. I think it's better if she stays out and get away because this one instructor is never

01:31:40.530 - 01:31:51.380

going to help her." They did some work at the Veterans Hospital. And so I said, "Okay, how much do you have in the bank?" And I think she said, "Forty dollars."

01:31:51.380 - 01:32:07.000

And I said, "Well, you better get a job." So I was pleased because the head of school nursing looked up at me and said, "I wish more parents would do that." I thought maybe I'm on my way to being a parent.

01:32:08.800 - 01:32:34.300

So she went, she stayed out and then I think she went the third year. This gets complicated. I think she went the third year and took languages and did very well. And we had had a boy from Italy in our home for a year, American Field Service, and we

01:32:34.280 - 01:32:49.480

gone over to visit him. So she knew what Italy was and we knew we had friends there. So she decided after that year, that would be her third year, she wanted to go to Italy to school.

01:32:50.240 - 01:33:08.200

So she made all the arrangements and found out about different schools. She didn't want one that was Americans studying. She wanted to be in with the Italians. And so she made the plans, but of course I had to see about passports and this and that

01:33:08.340 - 01:33:27.120

and the other thing. But we got her over to Italy, and she went to Perugia. Pio's folks were down in Naples, and she spent the summer with them, and down to the resort on farther down.

01:33:27.960 - 01:33:45.300

And then she went up to school to Perugia and went to this school for foreigners to learn Italian. And then she went two years to the Italian school. You know, they have almost a master's when they're through school.

01:33:45.980 - 01:34:05.340

But she decided to come back and finish at Iowa and get her degree at Iowa, so she did. Then she went back to Italy and got a job through a friend of ours that was active in American Field Service in Milan. And while she was there, they hired a nuclear engineer to come.

01:34:06.360 - 01:34:21.140

And he was from—his folks lived at Smith Center, Kansas. And so Susie was the one that had to help him buy his clothes and find a place to live and everything. And so they decided they liked each other, so they dated.

01:34:22.700 - 01:34:48.500

And she finally got to be the CEO's special secretary or whatever you call them. There's a name for that, I can't remember. My mind's failing. And anyhow, she got this, had that job, and had the most marvelous reference letter I've

01:34:48.520 - 01:34:58.400

ever read. So she did very well. And so she and Ken finally decided they would get married. So they came home that summer and they gave me three weeks to have a wedding.

01:35:01.780 - 01:35:20.340

Then they went back to, so all together, she was from the year she was twenty for eleven years she lived in Italy, except the year she came back to go to Iowa. So really she was, though we're close, she really doesn't understand lots of what's going on in our lives.

01:35:22.540 - 01:35:35.600

And then there's Jeff. And Jeff was 12 when his father died. So not only did I have a Ford business, but I had a father with cancer and a son who was 12.

01:35:36.880 - 01:35:54.500

But we got along fine. I was honest with him about everything. I remember the first time we ate out a lot because I started working. I worked as a salesperson for a friend who had a menswear department, or store.

01:35:57.580 - 01:36:10.720

So Jeff and I were eating out, and he says, "Mom," he says, "what would happen to me if something happened to you?" I said, "Well, your brother's already taken care of that. He's asked for you to be in his will, be in my will."

01:36:12.720 - 01:36:24.220

He was just like a different child. That had been worrying me. So thank goodness he was good enough to tell me. So we had a busy life, Jeff and I did.

01:36:24.280 - 01:36:43.340

I worked just shortly, I worked two years part-time at the clothing store, and the man in charge of the capital savings and loan at home came to me and asked me if I'd be interested in going to work part-time for them. Their lady in the office was going to have a baby.

01:36:44.540 - 01:37:01.520

So I went to work for him. And I think I worked there five or six years, I can't remember for sure. And she had two other children, and every time she had a child, they changed machines. And I was left with it.

01:37:03.200 - 01:37:16.200

But I liked working there. But it was a stressful job, because you accounted for every penny. And he particularly was hard to work for in that manner. a couple classes or so while I worked there.

01:37:17.200 - 01:37:35.700

And then finally they just could see the savings and loan big upset they had coming, and so they let their part-time help go. So I immediately found a job with an office manager, with an insurance man, who'd never had office help.

01:37:35.860 - 01:37:52.660

He didn't know how to file, he didn't know anything, so I put my good work that I'd learned at Drake, put it to work, and so I worked there. And I said, "When the computers come in, I don't want any part of them." So I had enough computers.

01:37:53.820 - 01:38:05.020

So when he did get computers, they were in the back room and I was in the front room, and I was trying to do both and work half days. And finally he said, "This isn't working." I said, "No."

01:38:05.020 - 01:38:27.100

And that lets me out. I had already had my Social Security, because they told me to take it at sixty-two. So I quit work at eighty-two, and I sold the house. Jeff—let's see, I got Suzy's pictures paid for in February, after she was married

01:38:27.100 - 01:38:50.640

in the summer, and Jeff called and said he was engaged. So he came home, he and his girlfriend came home, but they were married out. He was in that college in Montana, in Bozeman. That's a beautiful town, I wish I lived there, it's beautiful.

01:38:53.980 - 01:39:14.300

So Susie got married one year, and he got married the next year, and I wanted to sell the house, and somebody had overheard me, somebody's daughter had overheard me say I was going to sell the house, so she appeared at the door one Monday night, and Sunday Jeff had been there, and we looked at an apartment for me, and I said, "Come right in, it's

01:39:14.380 - 01:39:23.800

for sale today." So I was well looked after. And this was the home that your children had grown up in? Twenty-nine years we lived there.

01:39:24.780 - 01:39:32.860

As you look back now, are you sorry you sold? Sold my home? No. was taking all my money.

01:39:35.300 - 01:39:44.800

Time to move on. Time to move on. And I loved this apartment. It was just beautiful. They cleared it out and built it open and it was just

01:39:46.260 - 01:39:56.260

didn't have to go to the basement for washing. It was just, I loved it. And it had a bay window and I sat there and overlooked the park in the center of the town.

01:39:57.220 - 01:40:10.580

Watched people come and go. I loved it. I wasn't ready to leave but they sold the building and I had to get out. So I never wanted to build. I kept no scrapbooks about building or anything.

01:40:16.900 - 01:40:35.140

I just called, I heard they had a, there was a young man who was in construction, they said he was very good, but he was very slow. And so I just called him up one night and he gave me some pictures to look at and I I picked out this plan, there are six other ones like it since on the campus, a few changes,

01:40:35.240 - 01:40:48.340

but basically the same. And I said, "Your reputation isn't too good about finishing on time, but I have to move." This was first of June, I said, "September 16th."

01:40:49.440 - 01:41:00.700

And he was ready. And he spent the next ten years doing all the improvements around here and building other houses. So he came through and it paid off for him and for me too.

01:41:03.680 - 01:41:16.240

I got this quite reasonable. Now, Martha, how do you spend your time with your children all gone? Well, I play bridge. I read.

01:41:17.040 - 01:41:34.640

I work crossword puzzles, the same thing that all women do, I guess, who are widows at this age. I had, for eight years, I looked after Bill's aunt, who was, well, I'd done that four years before, taking care of all her money and everything.

01:41:35.360 - 01:41:52.720

She was in a nursing home for eight years, and she lived to be 102, so I took care of that. And a few years later, my dad's only sister, who wasn't married, I was taking care of her and taking her out once a week and groceries and this sort of thing.

01:41:52.940 - 01:42:08.260

And then she went into a nursing home, and she died at 95. So I was - I did that. I kept their fares and paid their bills and all that, which is a chore, but it's something I like to do.

01:42:09.280 - 01:42:30.760

And so I really haven't been free too long. And I volunteered until I started having knee and feet trouble with arthritis. I volunteered over at the home in the nursing part of it, snack cart, that sort of thing, in the little shop where they sell cards.

01:42:32.500 - 01:42:52.920

And throughout these years you've done other volunteer work. Tell us about some of the other volunteer things that you've done. Well I was on Planning and Zoning Committee, I was on Community Test Board. I've just written this up for my biography when I die, so I'm all familiar with it.

01:42:56.340 - 01:43:22.480

Let's see, what else? Was president of the YWCA, was on the committee for building the first renovation of the YMCA. Very active in church, worked in the church office, just volunteer work. And I coffee in the mornings with friends.

01:43:25.920 - 01:43:40.420

Play golf? No, I did for a while. While I was working at Capital Savings, I had a friend who played golf. But I was never very enthused about it.

01:43:41.460 - 01:43:58.280

Six holes was enough for me. Are you involved in theater anyway, or have you been? Yes, when we were first married and came back, I was in two or three productions here, the Wiseman plays each year, and we now have a beautiful theater.

01:43:59.480 - 01:44:14.780

It was given to us by a man who had the calendar factor here, and the money to keep it up, so that helps. But I've not entered into any of that, but I did when I was first married, in between kids.

01:44:18.500 - 01:44:31.560

That's great. You've done a lot of things, Martha, of all the things you've done. What is the one thing that you're most proud of? My husband and family.

01:44:34.360 - 01:44:54.120

I'm proud of my children. I guess I didn't finish about Jeff. Jeff started out at Ames to be a veterinarian, but they discouraged him so, with saying what kind of a grade level they had to keep up, that he decided after the first quarter that

01:44:54.180 - 01:45:12.700

he was not going to go through that. So he looked up different schools that still worked on the quarter system, and went out to Bozeman to school and took art. He was also a musician, but he decided on the art.

01:45:13.780 - 01:45:34.220

Had a marvelous instructor out there, and so he graduated. Got married one month and graduated the next month. And then he went out to the University of Massachusetts, UMass, and got his Master of fine arts there, and sculpture mostly.

01:45:35.580 - 01:45:58.560

And then he worked at Appleton for a few years, and he and Karen had two boys, Mace, who is—that's my maiden name, I was real thrilled with that. And then three years later, he had another boy, Will. She's diabetic, so she was to have no babies past thirty.

01:45:59.300 - 01:46:19.260

So Will was born on the 20th of November and she was 30 on the 24th. So they were my, and they both, where they lived, there was both a hospital there that specialized in diabetic mothers. In fact, when they were trying to have Will, they were so thrilled to get her because most

01:46:19.320 - 01:46:33.100

of them were already pregnant before they got a hold of him. So they were very fortunate. They're bright children. He worked kind of for a junior college system, that's what I call it, that Wisconsin has

01:46:33.380 - 01:46:45.420

for colleges. He worked in Appleton. And then he went down to Charleston, Illinois, Eastern Illinois University. And he made full professor a couple years ago, so he's pleased with that.

01:46:46.720 - 01:46:59.340

One boy was in college, and the other one is a junior in high school. And Jeff is heavy. He and Karen are both heavy. It's like his dad, but happy, yes.

01:47:00.200 - 01:47:15.320

They did come here often, but anymore they--well, it's a long drive. It's a five-hour drive, so you have three days to come, you're on the road most of the time. But I used to go over there, but then I can't drive that far anymore, so I'm afraid to,

01:47:15.520 - 01:47:25.540

so. And now occasionally do you have family reunions? Well we had a big birthday party. Well, describe that birthday party.

01:47:25.540 - 01:47:43.660

"Well, gladly. Last Christmas I was having trouble to any of my children tell me what we were going to do for Christmas. Never thought a thing about it." Jeff was to come after Christmas because they wanted to stay Christmas. They had an exchange student from Germany this year.

01:47:44.560 - 01:47:57.420

So they wanted to stay at home, but they would come afterwards. Susie and Ken could come this day or that day. But that was before, and they hoped to stay so they could see. Connie was probably going to have to have the dinner.

01:47:57.620 - 01:48:09.400

Everything. Connie is a jewel. She used to have to have everything. So anyhow, I got a nice note from my granddaughter saying that she and her husband would like

01:48:09.420 - 01:48:23.920

to take me out for dinner on Friday before Christmas, because they were going to be at his folks in Reno, Nevada for Christmas, and they would miss me, so would I go out to eat with them and the baby. Well, I said I'd be happy to.

01:48:23.980 - 01:48:44.580

I thought, "Oh, this is thrilling, going out with my grandkids." So I got ready and went up and went to Connie's, and then went over to Stacy's and played with the baby for a while. She was almost a year old, and played with her.

01:48:44.680 - 01:48:57.140

So then we got dressed to go out and eat. So we went to this – I said – she had written in the letter, she says, "We're going such and such, just wear the outfit you wore Sunday." Some Sunday I'd been up there.

01:48:57.860 - 01:49:12.020

So I was told what to wear. I didn't really think about it that way, but it was nice. So we went into this restaurant, and everybody at a long table rose and said, "Happy 80th birthday."

01:49:12.960 - 01:49:25.160

My entire family was there. That was Friday before Christmas. So Jeff could spend the night, because they wanted to be home for Christmas, and had made arrangements.

01:49:26.160 - 01:49:41.460

So that's why they were telling me they couldn't come after Christmas. had come the day before to help Connie get everything ready for the party. And they gave me my lamps. I had been wanting lamps, but I passed the age of being able to make up my mind.

01:49:44.160 - 01:49:53.320

So Susie just gave out, she says, "Connie, go buy some." So Susie does the planning. Her husband suggested it in August. So they started in August with emails and stuff.

01:49:54.520 - 01:50:13.980

And so Susie bust. Jeff was given a job to do some artwork for it, which I'll show you later. And Connie did the work. But Susie did come early, she and Ken, and they had got the flowers and tended to all

01:50:14.060 - 01:50:29.740

that sort of thing for the table. But we're not a family that does things like that. They never wanted any receptions for their weddings except just the family, and they They never wanted to go to anybody else's, and they are all alike.

01:50:30.260 - 01:50:43.840

They all have the same feeling about it. So we just never done things like that. I could never have been more shocked. So that is how I started my eightieth year, eightieth decade.

01:50:44.950 - 01:50:57.240

(Laughter) Oh, that is great. Martha and life, we all have good times and bad, and happy times and sad times. How did you get through those sad times?

01:50:59.120 - 01:51:13.980

Jeff. I had him to live for. And a car dealership to sell. My dad died a year later.

01:51:14.510 - 01:51:30.940

He closed the books out in November. Bill died in October. He closed the books out in November for me. state, and he never came back to the office again, to the garage again. And the first of October the next year, he died.

01:51:33.720 - 01:51:45.840

My sister died of cancer in '93. Her husband died a year and a half later. They're five years younger than I am. And I have nobody.

01:51:47.040 - 01:52:01.220

I don't have an aunt left. I'm it. I'm the generation. Let's lift. Let me just ask you, what is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran?

01:52:03.100 - 01:52:23.420

About like what they say in the paper. I think she was gutsy. She may have been right, but she was willing to fight for it. I'll give her credit for it. Anybody that can fight for it, they're okay. But I think she was gutsy, and I think she stepped on many toes. Do you think the WASP would have been an organization without her?

01:52:29.820 - 01:52:45.080

Well I didn't know much about Nancy Love. I don't know whether she had the stick-to-it-iveness to do what the Jackie had or not. What do you think the legacy of the WASP will be? What are the first breakthroughs for women?

01:52:46.540 - 01:53:07.240

Equal status for equal work? If you could say something to future generations, to your great-grandchildren, for example, that might encourage them or give them some hope that they don't have, what would you like to say to those generations to come?

01:53:09.040 - 01:53:25.280

I'd like to see them have some morals. I don't know where we're headed. I'm scared. And where do you think those morals should be taught?

01:53:25.660 - 01:53:36.160

At home. I think it started when women began to work in World War II. And they liked the money. Needed families did.

01:53:37.440 - 01:53:58.300

In some cases, needed the money. There are very few people that are capable of doing both, raising a family and working. Some people do beautifully, but that's few. But it has to start at home.

01:53:58.400 - 01:54:11.660

You can't expect the schools or your church to do it. And they expect teachers to do it now. We're losing teachers faster. They retire as fast as they possibly can in our school system, friends of mine.

01:54:14.140 - 01:54:34.580

And let me ask you why you think that happens when being a teacher was such a noble profession all during the generations where you grew up. Why do you think now that the teachers are not staying in those teaching jobs? Because they don't get respect.

01:54:35.240 - 01:54:51.920

The children aren't taught respect. Just little things, but they add up. There's no morals left. Tell me what people don't do anymore.

01:54:53.380 - 01:55:03.720

Write about. I don't even go to movies. I love movies. I haven't been to movies in months, maybe two last year, and I used to just go all...

01:55:07.400 - 01:55:23.440

I am scared where we're heading. Maybe it's Armageddon, who knows? You've been a wonderful person to interview. Is there anything that I have left out?

01:55:24.060 - 01:55:33.340

Though he added Jeff, we almost forgot him. You would not want to leave Jeff out or anything. No, he and I have a special bond. Yes, you do.

01:55:35.260 - 01:55:43.840

Very special boy. Can I ask you about Jimmy Stewart? Why don't you ask her? You mentioned the base where Jimmy Stewart was stationed.

01:55:44.320 - 01:55:52.960

What? You mentioned a base where Jimmy Stewart was stationed. Oh, where I took my physical to go into the WASP? How did you know that, that he was there?

01:55:53.060 - 01:56:07.940

"Oh, because we're Iowans, and the Iowa papers where all these stars came to have our base." And he was a good soldier. We all loved him. Did you ever see him?

01:56:08.420 - 01:56:16.000

No. Oh, okay. I was going to ask you about the WACs, the two women that were in your class that had been in the WACs.

01:56:16.000 - 01:56:25.400

Do you remember their names? Yes, Dee Robertson and Carla Mogerton. They were nice people. Dee and I were very close.

01:56:25.470 - 01:56:37.040

In fact, she visited me, I visited her. She's gone now. But— [DW:] Okay, let me ask you one—and I'll just ask you one more.

01:56:37.880 - 01:56:46.560

Do you have a favorite word? [CM:] A favorite word? Just any word anymore. It doesn't come out.

01:56:46.560 - 01:57:06.120

It takes three of us sitting at this table or four playing bridge anymore. All of us having to help with words. Anything I can say is my favorite word. I did better this morning that I had just gone through things with your questionnaire,

01:57:07.100 - 01:57:29.180

which brought things to mind so I was prepared. Otherwise I would never have. This one friend that I have that worked with the church office worker for a while, she will come and she'll say, "You know, so-and-so that lives so-and-so out there beside so-and-so.

01:57:29.580 - 01:57:40.500

Yeah, yeah." And then pretty soon she'll say, "Oh." She'll come up with a word and then another one will come quick to you. It's right quick.

01:57:40.940 - 01:57:57.260

And it takes all of us to make a sentence anymore. What was your favorite airplane? Oh, between the twin engine and the Stearman. I loved that Stearman. I loved the feeling of flying by the seat of your pants.

01:57:58.600 - 01:58:12.040

What do you think the WASP--how do you think the WASP changed your life? Being a WASP. The day my daughter said, "Now that Dad's gone, we'll probably do nothing anymore." We were planning to go to Florida that year.

01:58:12.040 - 01:58:22.160

She says, "I suppose now that Dad's gone, we won't do anything anymore. You've never done anything." And I just turned and looked at her. "Oh," she says, "I'm sorry, I forgot the wasp."

01:58:25.640 - 01:58:42.020

(Laughter) Did you not talk about it because of that discharge? Partly. Partly because I think when we first came back from the service, I don't think my

01:58:42.020 - 01:59:05.780

I didn't want to talk about it in front of my folks, not consciously, but when I looked back, I didn't want to talk about it. We talked about Jack. He has always been part of our lives. Some people cut him out, you know, once they're gone. There are never names that are ever mentioned, but we weren't that way, but I just, Dad felt, as I said, it just changed my whole family's life. Mother had a series of strokes. Dad was very impatient.

01:59:07.720 - 01:59:16.000

They were-- How old was Jack when he died? I was born in '22 and he died in '45. Right. And where was he?

01:59:16.460 - 01:59:36.720

Dortmund, Germany. It's on there. Hmm. Hmm. Was that the Battle of the Bulge? No. He was our armor on a—I don't know whether a B-24 or the other one, whether it was one of the double-tail or the single-tail.

01:59:37.100 - 01:59:50.820

He was down underneath Gunnar and in charge of all the armor on the thing. He got all kinds of medals for his guns. Where was he stationed? In England.

01:59:51.320 - 01:59:56.260

In England. So it was a B-17. Okay. 24s came out of Italy.

01:59:56.560 - 02:00:08.260

Okay. Oh, wow. Well, you have a lot to be proud of. Well, I'm telling you, the Wasps have missed a blessing not having you at all their functions

02:00:08.460 - 02:00:15.140

over the years. Yeah, well, that just happened. Well, now, we'll get you to, I'm going to turn this off.