00:00:02.360 - 00:00:26.740

Yeah, I met her a couple of times and talked to her on the phone. Schutze kept telling us, "I don't have anything. I only flew the trainers. Even after I graduated, I just flew AT-6s. I don't have anything important." But we finally talked to her enough, and she decided that she wanted to be included.

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I'm sorry, okay. I want to be included so I'll just come to Waco. So she flew from Pennsylvania to Waco. Really? And she stayed in our home with us for the weekend and we did her story.

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And by the time we finished-- Okay, I'm rolling. I'm Deanie Parrish. We're in the home of Marjorie Rees in Kansas City, Kansas. Marjorie was a--

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May I stop you there? I don't live in Kansas City, Kansas. in? Kansas City, Kansas and Kansas City, Missouri are two different towns. Johnson County is a suburb of Kansas City, Missouri and is not at all part of Kansas

00:01:09.860 - 00:01:36.720

City, Kansas for taxes or anything else. So I would say Johnson County, Kansas. Johnson City. Okay you want to roll back? Sure. Johnson County. Or you just start over. I'm Deanie Parrish. This morning we're interviewing Marjorie Rees. She lives in Johnson County, Kansas. She was a WASP class 44-1. Today is the 3rd of August

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2001. Okay Marjorie, if you would tell us your name and when and where you were born. I was born Marjorie Elfeld in Kansas City, Missouri, August 1, 1921. Just Happy birthday. Margie, tell me about your mom and dad.

00:02:00.820 - 00:02:16.880

Well, I don't know a great deal about my father. He was in World War I. My mother married him when she was 16, just as he left to go overseas. He was overseas for more than two years.

00:02:17.860 - 00:02:36.340

I was born after he came back and my mother was only 20. And when she was 25, she divorced him and we lived with my grandmother and grandparents. And my father lived in California most of the time. And he died in his mid-50s.

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So although I saw him occasionally, I don't really remember much about him from my childhood. So tell me about your grandparents. Well, I adored my grandfather, and my grandmother adored me a little bit too much. She was sort of the hovering sword, and so I was always trying to get away and be on

00:03:07.380 - 00:03:34.780

my own rather than have her tell me what to do. Mother went to work when I was—well, she went back to school and to Kansas City Junior College and got a degree there, which was pretty unusual in the 1920s. So Mother was gone during the day, and so my grandmother—I wouldn't say she raised

00:03:34.860 - 00:03:51.340

me because Mother was home every night, and I always spent a good deal of time with Mother. We did a lot of things together. She was very energetic and a swimmer, a lifelong swimmer into her 90s. Loved horseback riding.

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She was a docent at the Nelson Gallery for 25 years, belonged to a lot of organizations, took French for years and years, traveled widely. She loved travel. And I think her last overseas travel was when she was eighty-nine.

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Wow. And growing up, describe the home that you grew up in. Were you in town or out in the country? No, we were in new suburbs in Kansas City, Missouri.

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J.C. Nichols, who is known all over the world for his development of the Kansas City Country club area and the plaza and so forth, developed the homes in my neighborhood. So we weren't at the far edge of town, but we were at the southern edge, the more new edge of town.

00:04:49.140 - 00:05:17.940

I went to a school that was a little over a mile away, very good school, and I walked four times a day, came home for lunch, and by myself. It's amazing to think that no one would trust a single child to walk that far to school and back and back and back with no worry whatsoever.

00:05:18.540 - 00:05:47.200

What did your grandfather do? My grandfather owned a very large laundry and dry cleaning firm in Kansas City. He came from New Brunswick and came out here and started his own company. And it's really interesting because he owned the property between 15th and 17th on Broadway.

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The laundry was between 15th and 16th, and he had a large apartment hotel with a very large lawn between 16th and 17th. Now that property has become Bartle Convention Hall, and the southern part of it is going to be the location of our new Performing Arts Center.

00:06:10.240 - 00:06:28.460

So if instead of selling that in 1940, we had held onto it for twenty or thirty more years, it would have been extremely valuable. Kelly: Right. When you first started school, do you recall any of your teachers in elementary?

00:06:28.730 - 00:06:50.960

Steele: Mostly my fifth grade teacher, Miss Reed, who loved literature and loved poetry. We memorized a lot of poetry and we wrote poetry ourselves. I think I remember her more than any of the others. KD: During the time when you were a child, did you have summer vacations?

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JL: Oh, yes. KD: What would you do? JL: Well, we did travel in my grandfather's old Marmon that broke down about every twenty miles.

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This was back in the '20s. We went to Colorado. And coming back from Pikes Peak, my grandmother was so terrified that she got out and walked all the way

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back. We went to Canada one year. I've forgotten some of the places we went, but I remember one year, as far as we got the first day,

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was Excelsior Springs. That was, the roads were terrible, they were muddy, you had continual flat tires. And I just wonder why people enjoyed traveling then. But that's Americans and I guess everybody for you.

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I don't know, what was I talking about took us one day to get to Excelsior Springs because of the muddy roads and the flat tires and things of that sort. I can't say that we traveled a lot when I was a child.

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We spent most Sundays up at Lake Quivira, which was a new man-made lake that was opened up in the '20s. And my grandfather bought some lots up there and built a dock, and we had a boat. There were wonderful picnic grounds, and of course my grandmother would prepare fried

00:08:29.080 - 00:08:45.480

chicken and potato salad, you know, and cakes. And oh, also she made the most wonderful homemade, she called it a sherbet, but it was made with whole cream. And so it was just very, very luscious.

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And they would pack that in ice and take it up there. And I would swim from probably six or eight hours straight in the water, you know how kids do until your skin is so shriveled up nobody recognizes you. And then we would go to the picnic grounds and have these wonderful, wonderful picnics.

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And I nearly always took a friend. And then we would explore in the woods around the picnic grounds. Those were great, great weekends. How about your other grandparents, Marjorie?

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Yes. My father's parents. My grandfather, Al Feldt, was a very remarkable man. He came over from Germany when he was 17.

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He did have an uncle and some cousins who lived here in Kansas City. I think he went to work at about $3 a week, something like that. To save car fare, he walked all the way down to his place of work, which was about five or six miles every day.

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And he was so bright and so ambitious. So over the years, he just improved himself and finally had his own machinery and hardware store, Elfeld Hardware and Machinery, which was, I think, the largest in Kansas City. They provided a lot of the parts for TWA during the war and so forth.

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And he also was in the building and loan business, and he was appointed by Herbert Hoover to be one of those that formed the Home Loan Bank agency, I guess it was an agency, the first ones and very hardworking, very ambitious, very nice but not extremely warm. My grandmother also came from Europe.

00:11:02.640 - 00:11:28.360

She was born in Czechoslovakia and she was just a dear, sweet woman who had seven children. The main thing they had in common was that they were both marvelous gardeners, and they would turn over in their graves if they could see how I turned out. They had a very, very large yard in really three levels.

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They had fruit trees, they had vegetable gardens, and marvelous flowers, and a fish pond. It was just a beautiful place to go visit. They lived very close to where I lived, so I visited them a great deal. Did you ever spend, say, weekends or nights in their home?

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Oh, yeah, many times. And sometimes, if my grandparents and my mother were going somewhere on a vacation for a week or so, I might spend that time with them. Yeah, I was pretty close to them, too.

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As a young girl growing up, did you have chores to do at home? I'm afraid not. You know, this was back in the days when if you were not really suffering through the Depression, you could hire maids for like a dollar a day or something like that.

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So we had a full-time maid. And I do remember one time when I was about 12, and it was in the evening, And my grandfather said, asked me to go fix him a pot of coffee. I told him, "I don't know how."

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He was a little upset with me at that time. I don't think he realized how little I had to do around the house. QF: Was that the grandfather that really spoiled you? AZ: That was the one I lived with.

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Yes, yes. Yeah. Margie, tell me what Christmas was like when you were growing up. Well, my grandfather that I lived with absolutely adored Christmas.

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And he had many, many employees, and for some reason or other-- well, I think oftentimes employees give their boss Christmas presents rather than vice versa. I don't know if they do that too much anymore. But on Christmas Eve, he would come home late from work and he would have his car in the

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car trunk just to the ceiling with presents. All for him, not for us. But it was so much fun to watch him. He just loved it.

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And of course, my Christmases were pretty nice, too. I usually had nice things. Did you have a Christmas tree? Oh, yes. Oh, yeah.

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Which we often left up till after the first of the year. Do you remember helping decorate that tree? Yeah, I think I did. Did you have stockings?

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Yes, I think we did. I've kind of forgotten. I know I had stockings for my children. I kind of think we did. Do you recall any special gift you might have gotten as a child?

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A doll or a scooter? Well, I just remember when I got my first—what do they call the small bicycles with the training wheels? Tricycle.

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No, it wasn't a tricycle, but it was a very small bicycle and it had training wheels. And I remember I was awfully thrilled by that. As a young child, describe some of your playmates. Did you have children living close?

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Steele: I was so lucky. I was an only child. When we moved in with my grandparents in the same block, there were three other girls all my age, within a year of each other.

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Two of them were only children, and the other one had a little sister who was six years younger and she did not count. So the four of us were just like sisters, all in the same block, went to the same school, went to the same dancing school, played together continually.

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Of course, sometimes we'd break up into twos and twos and have our little feuds, you know. But it was wonderful because I think it must be terrible to grow up without siblings unless you have playmates who are just as close, really, as siblings. And one of them I have not seen since she was fourteen.

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Her father died and she and her mother moved back to her brother's house, the mother's brother's house. And we still correspond. And think how many years that has been.

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Yeah. And growing up, did you have slumber parties with those girls or did they sleep over at your house sometimes? Yeah.

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Oh, yes. We did that more with the girl who lived next door to me, rather than the one who lived across the street and had the younger sister. When you were in elementary school, did you have any ambitions?

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Did you have any idea of what you wanted to be when you grew up? Well, I did, but I think it was sort of forced on me. I was in this fifth grade class with Ms. Reed that I told you about, and we wrote essays and poems and so forth, and she called mother up to school one time and said, "I think

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your daughter has real writing talent." And so I was sort of pleased by that, but then everybody around me kept saying, "I think Marjorie's going to be a writer." And in fact, this lasted for a long time.

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And when I went to the University of Missouri, my junior year, I entered journalism school and found that I couldn't stand it. I didn't like news writing.

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I didn't like the advertising part. I wasn't particularly interested in the history of journalism. And you know, the University of Missouri at one time had the finest journalism school in the country.

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And probably if I had stuck with it a little bit longer, I would have gotten to like it. But anyway, about that time, I left the University of Missouri at Columbia and came back home

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and attended the University of Kansas City for my final year. Let me take you back. Once you finished elementary school, was that through sixth grade or through eighth grade?

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Seventh. through seventh. Then did you have to change school buildings? Or was it in the same school?

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No, we changed. There were no middle schools in that. And elementary school was not-- there were not eight grades and then four years of high school.

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So we had one year less when we graduated from high school. So you had 11 years of schooling rather than 12. Right. OK.

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Once you went into that high school, But do you recall any teachers there who were a big influence in your life? No, I really don't. What was your favorite subject in high school?

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High school was quite an experience for me. I suddenly discovered boys. I joined a sorority and learned how important clothes and money were. Which sorority?

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It was called JUG, J-U-G, it was a high school. Did you have other outside activities, for example, sports or drama? Dancing. I started dancing when I was five years old.

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What kind of dancing? Ballet. Well, I took tap classes every week also, but I think I excelled more in ballet. And I took them until I graduated from college.

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Kelly: Were you ever into music? Was music a love of yours? Just popular music. In spite of the classical music that I danced to,

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all my friends, we'd listen to the radio and wrote down the words of the songs, and learned all the words, and knew all the big band leaders and so forth. But no, I regret that I don't appreciate music more than I do.

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I mean, I still love the music of my era, the big band era, but I really am not well acquainted with or don't appreciate some of the classical music. I'm going to get a drink. As you were growing up, who were your role models?

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Probably movie stars. [Laughter] Male, perhaps? You know, I've kind of forgotten, but I do know that when we played make-believe,

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you know, why we would take on the role of certain movie actresses and so forth. I don't remember, you know, having... Well of course, you know, the pop stars had not come into existence at that time. I was practically grown up when all the little girls started squealing at Frank Sinatra.

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In fact, I was in the WASP at the time and we would play the radio and Sinatra would be on and all the teenagers would be squealing. And so we would make fun of them by squealing too. Kelly: In high school, what were your ambitions by that time?

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I was very ambitionless, to tell you the truth. I think a lot of people, a lot of young people, a lot of young women, saw their role as getting married and having a family. And I do not know that I really felt any different at that time.

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I really sort of thought maybe that I would eventually be a writer. Kelly: Tell me about your social life in high school. What did you do for fun? Did you date specific boys or was it a group?

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I dated very little in high school. I was a little bit shy, and I think I was probably very envious of the really popular girls that had lots of dates and so forth. So, you know, you have your own little group of girlfriends and so forth, and you go over

00:23:17.720 - 00:23:39.120

to their house on the weekends and you listen to records and some of the boys come by. but they're not specific dates. One thing I can remember so much is, you know, there were drive-in drugstores in those days, and everybody, if the 16-year-old had a car,

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then they would go around and pick up all their friends, and then you would go to the drive-in, and you'd sit there, you'd order a Coke or a Limeade, and you would sit there for hours and hours because other cars would drive up, filled with kids, you know, the same kind of thing.

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We went to lots of movies, lots and lots of movies. Everybody went on Friday nights. And then often on Saturday we would go downtown, and nobody goes downtown here anymore, but they were wonderful.

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All the movie houses were down there. And we would all meet at Harsfield's balcony and we'd do some shopping. We'd go to Wolferman's balcony and our usual lunch was an English muffin with orange marmalade and a chocolate ice cream soda.

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I don't know whether our parents ever knew that's what we had for lunch all the time or not. And then we'd go to a movie and, you know, they were often double features too. So that would take care of the whole day.

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Do you recall your high school prom? You know, I'm not sure that we even had proms in those days. I know that after the graduation ceremony, a bunch of us went back to one of our friends' homes and the parents had champagne for us.

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time I'd ever tasted champagne. We had dances throughout the year. The sororities would have a dance and the fraternities, and there would be mixers. If there was a prom, I didn't go to it.

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I'm not sure there was or not. Kelly: As you continued your dancing lessons, even in high school, did you have recitals? Yes, in fact, we had really wonderful recitals down at the Music Hall, which is a very, very large stage and many, many seats and so forth.

00:25:55.440 - 00:26:22.400

I took from a very well-known dancing teacher. But the interesting thing is that when I was fourteen, my aunt was a professional dancer. She had her own act on the Orpheum Circuit. When she was about in her mid-thirties, she left New York and came back to Kansas City

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and opened her own dancing school. So I started taking from her then. I became her assistant teacher in high school, and then in college, in the summertime, I would take some of her classes, her beginning classes and things like that.

00:26:44.460 - 00:27:06.580

Did you ever dance professionally? Well, let's say sort of semi-professionally. We danced at carnivals or conventions and things like that, and we got paid a very, very minimal amount.

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But I quit dancing when I was twenty-one, and I did not start again until I was fifty-nine. [Laughter] Now, you know better than that. But a community center here offered some tap classes for the 50-plus group, and I enrolled

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in it, and they didn't have enough people, so they canceled the class and they offered it again the next year. And I enrolled again, and there were enough. And so I took there for a couple of years, and then I started taking from private teachers,

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much better teachers. And after, I guess, about maybe four years, I joined the—it was called the Senior Barn Players Entertainers. And we danced at a lot of nursing homes, retirement homes, but other places too.

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And then nine of us left that group and formed our own performing group called The Classics. That was in 1987. And we did charge. We had different fees.

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We charged the least amount for retirement homes and so forth, but we would charge up to two or three hundred dollars. Divided among eight people does not mean a lot. Kelly: But they were all females?

00:28:54.690 - 00:29:12.400

Stenstrom: No, no. We had three men and five women. They were not all dancers. There was a very fine musician who had been a trombone player, a professional trombone

00:29:12.480 - 00:29:32.280

player in a band, and had lost his lip, is the way he put it, and he had taken up the melodica. Is that the name of it? It's a musical instrument that you blow into, and it also has keys you play.

00:29:33.420 - 00:29:45.260

And he was excellent. And his wife was an absolutely beautiful singer. And she had sung with some of the big bands. And then we had a marvelous piano player.

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And then another man sang and acted as MC. Another man was a tap dancer. And I had my partner, who was another gal. And we had met when we were taking dancing lessons from one of these private teachers.

00:30:05.660 - 00:30:28.040

And so most of the time we danced together. Sometimes I couldn't be there, sometimes she couldn't be there, and then we would dance alone. So we gave almost 800 performances from 1987 to, let's see, 1998 is when we quit.

00:30:28.660 - 00:30:41.480

We lost three to cancer, and when the last one had to give it up, then we broke up the group. But it was fun, it was really, really fun. I loved it.

00:30:42.500 - 00:30:56.980

Kelly: And the proceeds from that you just divided among the performers? Steele: Yeah, right. Or we had some really good sound equipment and so forth. After the piano player died, by then we had to use recordings.

00:30:57.320 - 00:31:14.780

But we had some very sophisticated sound equipment. Did you prefer tap over ballet? Well, I think when I was young I preferred ballet better. When you reach the age that I was, ballet is no longer the thing.

00:31:15.260 - 00:31:38.160

But anyway, let's see, just a little over two years ago I had a hip replacement. I had kept on taking dancing lessons, and so I wasn't able to dance for about six months. So when I went back, I found that I'd gotten quite far behind the rest of the class, and my balance wasn't very good.

00:31:39.020 - 00:32:00.260

And then my teacher left for the summer, so that meant that there'd be quite a long interval there where I wasn't dancing at all. So I decided to give it up and take up ballroom dancing, which I really had never—I mean, you know, I could get up on the floor with the usual bad male dancer and just dance as

00:32:00.360 - 00:32:17.540

badly as he did. But anyway, I really, really love this. And I'm taking very, very cheap lessons from a very good teacher at the community center.

00:32:18.020 - 00:32:45.360

I'm also taking very, very expensive lessons from a dance club. It's very near here and they have, oh, I don't know how many instructors, men and women. It's very large and it's very elegant and they charge a tremendous amount of money. And so I tell my children I'm spending their inheritance,

00:32:45.980 - 00:32:59.560

but they're going to have to put up with it. And I don't like to travel anymore, so if I gave up two nice trips a year, why, that would pay for the dance lesson. That's great.

00:32:59.900 - 00:33:13.200

Let me go back and ask you about your graduation from high school. Did you have caps and gowns? Yes. And when you finished high school, then what did you do next?

00:33:17.110 - 00:33:36.340

Had you plans to go on to school? Oh yes, I mean there was never any question about that. I wanted to go to Stevens in Columbia, which was an all-girls school. And Mother thought I was shy enough around boys that she would prefer I go to the University

00:33:36.340 - 00:33:48.100

of Missouri at Columbia. So that's what I did. Kelly: And when you went there, where did you live? Litz: I lived in the Pi Phi sorority house. Kelly: Okay. Is she a Pi Phi?

00:33:48.550 - 00:34:09.240

Litz: Um-hum. Kelly: Ah, okay. When you went to college, what was your major? Well, it was going to be journalism. And then because I was so disappointed my first year in journalism school.

00:34:12.620 - 00:34:29.860

And there was some health problems with my grandmother. My grandfather had died, and mother and my grandmother were living together. And my grandmother was really going to have to go into a retirement home and sell her house.

00:34:32.640 - 00:34:45.180

There were just a lot of reasons it was best for me to come back here and go to the University of Kansas City. So I majored in political science just because it was the easiest thing to do. Okay, we're going to change tapes.

00:34:45.220 - 00:35:00.180

No, no, it wasn't that. When your grandfather died, was that the one that you were the apple of his eye? How did that affect you? Stenstrom: Well, I was really devastated.

00:35:00.750 - 00:35:17.680

I really was. He owned a grapefruit ranch in Texas, in West Laco, if you've ever heard of West Laco. He spent a good deal of time down there. My grandmother didn't like it down there.

00:35:19.980 - 00:35:38.900

So I had not seen an awful lot of him for the past five. I would go down and visit him in the summer, and he would come up from time to time. But yeah, it was very hard on me. Let me ask you, when you would go to Texas and visit him, what would you do with your

00:35:39.020 - 00:35:48.660

grandfather? Well, he had more than grapefruit. He grew cotton. And I just loved to go out and pick cotton.

00:35:50.800 - 00:36:14.020

And oh, there were a lot of animals, a lot of cats and dogs, which I adored. And then they would pile the truck with cotton. As I recall, it was cotton, and I loved to ride into town sitting on top of the cotton. And he had, I don't know.

00:36:14.060 - 00:36:30.100

I was at the age, I was like fourteen and fifteen and so forth, and I was at the age where a farm was just so fascinating to me. Did he have a house out on the farm? Yes, he had a very, very nice house.

00:36:31.920 - 00:36:45.860

Did you, at that point, did you learn to ride a horse? No, you know, I don't think he had any horses. I never was very good at horseback riding. Mother adored horseback riding.

00:36:46.500 - 00:37:13.220

I think when I was about maybe ten or eleven, we went out to Colorado and she put me on a horse and we started going up the trails and the horse ran away with me. I jumped off, which fortunately turned out all right. My foot could have caught in the stirrup, but I was just bruised a little bit.

00:37:13.480 - 00:37:33.180

So I was really always a little bit frightened. I would occasionally just ride at a riding stable around here if a friend was, but I was not something I wanted to really do much of. Kelly: When you would go down to visit your grandfather, you would go alone?

00:37:33.380 - 00:37:40.060

Would you go on the train? How would you get there? Oh, gosh. Kelly: Texas is a long way.

00:37:40.120 - 00:37:58.080

Steele: Yeah, it is. I think I took the train. I think one time my mother and my uncle drove down there, and then they left me, and then they went on and traveled around Texas someplace.

00:37:58.540 - 00:38:11.580

I'm not sure where. So, going back and forth and staying with your grandfather are some of your happiest memories? Yeah, but I think I only went twice, maybe three times.

00:38:12.680 - 00:38:22.980

Yeah, it was fun. Yeah, I enjoyed it. There really wasn't anybody to play with much, so I was kind of glad to get home and see my friends again.

00:38:24.060 - 00:38:38.840

When you decided to change schools from Columbia, how far were you in school at that point? I had finished three years. And then you came back to Kansas City. And then where did you live while you were going to school?

00:38:40.620 - 00:39:05.480

With my grandmother and my mother. When and where were you, not when, where were you and how do you remember when you heard about Pearl Harbor? I do remember because I had a terrible case of scarlet fever.

00:39:08.840 - 00:39:31.960

My uncle and his wife had built a house up at Lake Rivera, where I used to go as a child. Their oldest son, who would have been, oh, I do not know, seven or eight, had scarlet fever. My uncle picked me up and took me out there for the weekend and took me in the room where

00:39:32.060 - 00:39:57.360

my cousin was. My aunt-in-law came in and said, "Oh, why are you letting her in by Steve?" But nobody really thought that I was probably too old to get scarlet fever. But I came down with - I was very, very sick.

00:39:58.200 - 00:40:13.060

I was in bed five weeks. And it was just - I can't even remember most of it. I was so sick. But I remember that's when I heard about Pearl Harbor on my radio.

00:40:14.000 - 00:40:25.660

Can I have another minute? Okay. When you were so ill, were you at your grandmother's house during that time? Yes.

00:40:25.660 - 00:40:39.080

Uh-huh, yeah. And this was during my senior year at the University of Kansas City, which is now the University of Missouri at Kansas City. Then did that hold you back a whole year in school?

00:40:39.200 - 00:40:46.260

Oh, no. Did you catch up? Yeah, I caught up. you know it was five weeks and part of it was during the Christmas vacation.

00:40:48.020 - 00:41:06.760

And the teachers were all very understanding. And then you went ahead and graduated. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. I changed. My you are really covering. I had no idea. I think this is just a waste of tape. Isn't this fun? Well, it is.

00:41:09.360 - 00:41:37.300

When is the first time that you ever saw an airplane that you were interested in that airplane? Do you recall? Not really, and I know that many of the WASPs were from a very young age. But I do remember that the old municipal airport, where all of the transport planes, passenger

00:41:37.440 - 00:41:55.120

planes landed and took off and so forth, had a wonderful restaurant and a balcony around it. And this was a favorite evening activity of many people. You would go down there and eat in the restaurant, and then you would go up and stand on the

00:41:55.460 - 00:42:10.080

balcony and watch the planes take off and land, and watch the people disembark and so forth. And that was kind of fun, but I don't think I ever felt that, "Gee, I want to fly," at that time.

00:42:10.540 - 00:42:20.860

Okay. Once you finished college, then what did you do? Well, I started taking flying lessons right away. Okay.

00:42:21.180 - 00:42:39.420

This is because a boy I went with my senior year had his commercial license at the age of 18. His mother was a pilot, a 99er, and had her own plane. And that's the reason he learned to fly so young.

00:42:40.300 - 00:43:03.640

So I started, you know, he would take me up and do acrobatics and I really wasn't frightened. I thought it was exciting and fun. So I don't think—he didn't even graduate. There were a lot of civilian instructors.

00:43:03.940 - 00:43:28.240

In fact, all primary training was by civilian instructors. So he had an offer to go down to a field in Oklahoma as an instructor, and at pretty good for that time. So he left, but I had already taken a few lessons.

00:43:31.910 - 00:43:38.900

Kelly: Was he your first instructor? Was he an instructor at that point? Steele: No, no. I just went up with him.

00:43:39.420 - 00:43:45.820

No. Kelly: What kind of airplane did you start flying? when you first-- - No, just those little--

00:43:47.320 - 00:43:57.920

- Piper toot? - Well, I think maybe a Fairchild and a Ronca, same thing, same amount of horsepower, you know, little putt-putts.

00:43:59.640 - 00:44:09.360

- Was his mother the only one that you knew, the only female pilot that you knew? - Uh-huh, and I'll have to admit, I was totally unimpressed.

00:44:10.580 - 00:44:20.660

(laughing) I can't believe that. Then what made you decide that you were going to take lessons? You know, I'm not really sure. Well, I think I know.

00:44:22.800 - 00:44:49.100

A lot of the boys in my class were enrolled in the-- well, it was originally the civilian pilot training program and later changed, I think, in 1941 to the war training service. And so they were deferred while they were in college, but they could go ahead and get

00:44:49.160 - 00:45:13.700

their flight training and have their ground school in the colleges and so forth. And so many of them were doing this, and that's about all they talked about. And I always sort of enjoyed boys and men's conversation anyway, more than some of that that young girls talked about.

00:45:16.160 - 00:45:32.160

I don't know, I just thought I'm going to go down and see how much they are and take some lessons. And then my grandfather gave me a thousand dollars, which was an awful lot of money then. And after I had a couple of lessons, I was really sold.

00:45:32.340 - 00:45:48.380

I just adored it. That's about all I thought about. And so I just plunked down the whole money, the whole check, said, "Sign me up." And so that would pay for, you know, 100 hours at that time.

00:45:49.360 - 00:46:04.180

What did your mother think about your flying? Mother just wished she were young enough to do it herself. Mother was sort of fearless, I mean, sort of stupidly fearless. And your grandmother?

00:46:05.700 - 00:46:23.420

Well, I suppose she worried, but she never really let me know that she thought it was terribly dangerous. Were you ever able to take your mother or your grandmother or your grandfather up? I took my mother up and I think for the first time mother was a little uneasy.

00:46:26.140 - 00:46:42.940

My fearless mother was a little uneasy when she went up with me. But I had just gotten my private pilot's license. So I was pretty much of a novice. But what happened, I really was doing it just for the fun of it.

00:46:42.940 - 00:46:55.520

But it was such a challenge. It was-- I don't know. You were learning to master something that was kind of unique.

00:46:57.420 - 00:47:11.640

And I wasn't really-- well, one thing I did want to do, I wanted to join the Civil Air Patrol. And I think I had already gotten the little uniform. And my uncle called me up and said,

00:47:12.140 - 00:47:34.280

I just saw an article in the paper about a program that is recruiting women to fly military planes. And he said there's going to be an interviewer in Kansas City at such and such a date, and here is the number or the address you contact if you would like to be interviewed.

00:47:35.640 - 00:47:58.400

So I did that. Probably if he hadn't seen that newspaper article, I never would have even known about it. And I can't remember exactly what month that was, but I received notice soon after that. I had been accepted. I had to go up to Fort Leavenworth and pass the physical.

00:47:59.060 - 00:48:30.320

And I keep reading in the WSSSS books that there were intelligence tests, ability tests. I may have taken one, I just do not remember. But I do remember the physical, because I was quite a bit underweight. I was 5'4" and I weighed about 100, and I needed to weigh 108 at 5'4".

00:48:31.620 - 00:48:51.800

Before I went up for my first physical—and I have written an article about this that I'll show it to you. It's in Women in Aviation magazine. And ate an awful lot prior to going up there and put on two pounds.

00:48:54.160 - 00:49:24.140

So I thought, "Well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to crunch down on the scale so that I'm only 5'3", so I'll only need to weigh 105 instead of 108." Well that worked, but I still only weighed 102. So I told the physician up there that I passed everything else with fine colors, all the

00:49:24.140 - 00:50:00.120

the physical. And I said, "I've just gotten over the intestinal flu." And I lost a few pounds. And he said, "Well, okay." He said, "Come back in a week and we'll weigh you in again." I thought, "What in the world am I going to do?" Well, so I went to my grandfather's hardware store. I got all sorts of pieces of metal. For one thing, I had a fishing sinker

00:50:00.380 - 00:50:29.060

on a ribbon around my head, and my hair was long, so you could not see this. I had some sort of metal pellets in my bra. I also wore a sanitary napkin, which had some metal in And I got some sort of metal bands that I wore ankle socks, and I put them under the over part.

00:50:29.400 - 00:50:45.800

And then I ate this enormous breakfast. I ate bananas all the way up there. I drank practically a quart of water. And I just sort of floated in.

00:50:46.060 - 00:51:03.920

I would have floated if I hadn't weighed so much from all this metal. I just clanked when I stood on the scales, but nobody really noticed anything. And I made it with half a pound to spare. But I don't know.

00:51:04.440 - 00:51:26.100

I noticed the mother wasps did similar things to gain enough weight. And sometimes a physician wouldn't quibble about two or three pounds. But I was sort of unlucky because mine had to be right on the money. Did you know what the purpose of training women was going to be?

00:51:26.680 - 00:51:50.500

What the mission would be if you successfully completed that training? Do you know? I am not really sure. At the time, Jacqueline Cochran's program was basically to train women to enter the

00:51:50.620 - 00:52:23.080

Faryon Command. Whether or not I expected that this is what I would do, I really don't remember. It was only, I guess, pretty much after I entered training at Sweetwater that she was able to place her graduates in all sorts of flying capacities.

00:52:24.520 - 00:52:47.460

I know the first graduates probably went to the Ferry Command, but after that, then they went to the Training Command and did all sorts of—well, every domestic flying job that men did. How did your grandparents and your mother feel about you entering this training and

00:52:47.560 - 00:53:06.620

leaving home? Well, I think they were pleased. I think they thought I had probably been very ambitionless, just thinking, "Can I find the right man to marry?"

00:53:06.620 - 00:53:29.440

And as I say, Mother was up for anything, always. I'm sure they must have worried at times, although as I say, Mother was not a worrier. But my grandmother, you know, she didn't weep or cry or beg me to stay home. They didn't disown me or anything.

00:53:29.580 - 00:53:39.300

I think in general they were pleased. Kelly: Right. How did you get from Kansas to Texas? Landis: Well, the train, and that was really something.

00:53:41.220 - 00:54:02.840

I suppose that nearly all of us had the same experience. Well, some of them did drive, or I heard of one who rode her horse. But most of us, I think, got to Sweetwater by train. What do you recall about that trip?

00:54:04.440 - 00:54:24.400

Well, it was kind of fun. I ran into some others on their way, and so of course we just stayed up practically all night talking and getting acquainted and so forth. And I do remember that when I changed trains in the—I think it was Dallas train station—I

00:54:24.520 - 00:54:43.640

saw a graduate wasp. At that time, the official uniforms were not in use, but I knew—she had on the khaki pants and the white shirt and the wonderful wings. And she was so tanned and her hair was so blonde.

00:54:44.480 - 00:55:01.760

And these—when I saw her, I was just so thrilled. I thought, "That's going to be me one of these days." Kelly: When you got to Sweetwater, what was your first impression of Sweetwater and Avenger Field?

00:55:02.860 - 00:55:20.340

Well, you know, now when I think back, I think we must have all been just horrified. But I don't think we were. You know, and I'd lived in a sorority house where you were in close quarters with a lot of other women and so forth.

00:55:20.340 - 00:55:41.160

It was a little more luxurious than the bays down at Sweetwater. The only thing that I really can remember is that we were awfully anxious to finish up and get out of there. But as a rule, we didn't think much about it, I don't think.

00:55:41.220 - 00:56:00.520

And now I think, "My Lord, here were twelve of us sharing two stools and two showers and two sinks." And I couldn't exist twelve hours a day like that. Could you describe your bay mates?

00:56:04.300 - 00:56:36.580

Let's see, three of them washed out fairly early, so I don't remember them very well. Kay Dusak was one of them, and she was one of the WASPs who crashed and was killed just about a week before the end of the program. Bonnie Edmonds was, well, we got along, I got along awfully well with them.

00:56:36.960 - 00:57:01.860

I think probably our bay was the most, there was the most bad behavior coming out of it. We had the most demerits, I think. We were nearly always campus or on the field on weekends. But it was fun.

00:57:01.980 - 00:57:18.940

I really liked all of them. There wasn't anyone I didn't like, but I was just particularly close to my baymates and not much to anyone else. Do you know why those three girls washed out?

00:57:20.690 - 00:57:41.880

I don't remember. I think they did in primary. They just simply didn't pass the Army check pilot. I don't know whether they anticipated it, whether they knew they were not doing well

00:57:41.880 - 00:57:56.380

or what. I think some of it had to do with their primary instructors, how good they were. I suppose there are many, many reasons. Do you recall how you felt when one of them would wash out?

00:57:59.640 - 00:58:24.780

Well, I wasn't that close to those because it was fairly early on. I've read in some of the books on the WASP, too, that you didn't dwell on it. I mean, you were sorry, and you knew it could happen to you. And I think maybe it made you all the more determined to do the best you could.

00:58:26.360 - 00:58:41.900

I would have felt very badly later on if my best friend, who was Doris Gee, had washed out. I don't think there was a chance, she was a great pilot, but I wasn't really well enough acquainted with them.

00:58:42.140 - 00:58:54.880

Kelly: Tell me what you got some of those demerits for. Steele: Well, mostly it was noise after— Kelly: Lights out. Steele: The lights out, right.

00:58:56.940 - 00:59:10.820

But one time, you know, they would post the demerits in the—oh, what did they call the—well, in the administration building. I can't think what they called it. Kelly: Ready Room.

00:59:10.820 - 00:59:16.280

Landau: Recreation Room, was it? Kelly: Ready Room. Landau: The Ready—no, not in the Ready Room. I don't think so.

00:59:16.320 - 00:59:31.880

I think it was in—did we call it the Recreation Room? I can't remember. But anyway, they would post each bay's demerits there. And so one time, one of my bay mates got the bright idea, and I think they were posted—well,

00:59:31.900 - 00:59:48.200

they had to be posted in pencil—that she would erase them. None of us knew anything about it, although she did come back and tell us that she had done that. Well, we were not about to squeal on her.

00:59:48.360 - 01:00:19.760

You just didn't do that sort of thing. But of course, the administration realized what had happened. And so we were all called in for a very lengthy third degree to see who had done it. Well, we weren't going to put the blame on the one who had done it, and she didn't

01:00:19.760 - 01:00:37.840

met that she had. I can remember when they imposed, I think it was at least a month's stay on the field without any weekend pass. Might have been six weeks, I don't remember.

01:00:39.210 - 01:00:48.820

Kelly: So you were confined to the base? Steele: Yes. And I can remember saying to them, "Well, I thought this was a democracy where you were innocent until you were proven guilty.

01:00:51.240 - 01:01:06.160

You know, how childish can you be? [Laughter] Kelly: Do you recall, where did you go to eat? Steele: In Sweetwater, you mean?

01:01:06.240 - 01:01:23.220

Kelly: At Avenger Field, yes. Steele: Oh, where did we go to eat? Oh, well, in the cafeteria. And I have no idea how good the food was or it was not, but we were all so hungry that

01:01:23.320 - 01:01:42.300

we always just scraped our plates. And actually, it probably wasn't too bad because being military, you know, we had a lot of things. and some probably more meat and ice cream and so forth.

01:01:45.340 - 01:01:57.940

And I don't know that I paid much attention. I went in there, I was hungry, I ate like a pig, and that was about it. Kelly: Okay. Take me through one day of training.

01:01:59.000 - 01:02:11.860

How would you start the day, and where would you go, and how would you—just take me through it one day. Steele: I will, to the best of my ability. You know, this has been a long time ago.

01:02:11.930 - 01:02:16.960

Kelly: Okay. Did you have a bugler? Steele: Hmm? Kelly: A bugler to wake you up?

01:02:17.090 - 01:02:19.480

Steele: Yes. Uh-huh. Kelly: Okay. Steele: That's true.

01:02:19.620 - 01:02:41.280

And I think it was usually around 5.30 in the morning, something like that. I think we had half an hour to get ready and fall in. At the very first, we would get up with the bugler. We might have even had our hair up in curlers or something.

01:02:41.920 - 01:02:58.480

We might put on some makeup and comb our hair. It didn't take us long to realize that we could really just sort of sleep in the zoot suits. We did not care whether our hair was curly or not anymore, whether we had makeup on.

01:02:59.140 - 01:03:21.120

So we would get about another twenty-five minutes sleep. And when they would call fallout, we would just dash out there and go to breakfast. I think, as I recall, we had some time after breakfast to clean up the Bay. And then we marched everywhere.

01:03:21.440 - 01:03:45.260

We would—our class—did they call him a class lieutenant? I can't remember. Class lieutenant would put us in formation, and we would march either to ground school or to the flight line.

01:03:46.800 - 01:04:07.760

And if it was ground school, we would have, I'm thinking, probably around three hours of ground school. And it might be math, it might be physics, it might be aerodynamics, it might be code, it might be navigation, meteorology.

01:04:10.480 - 01:04:26.860

And we did have some homework, of course. And then we would march to the cafeteria again for lunch, and then back to our bay. And then shortly after that, I think we marched to the flight line, where we spent the other half of the day.

01:04:28.420 - 01:04:40.100

And this would be reversed with the other flight. There were two flights in each class. So if you were in ground school in the morning, they were on the flight line, and then it would reverse.

01:04:41.500 - 01:05:17.080

And a lot of times we sat around with the—I think he was called the operations officer, I can't remember for sure. And he would talk a lot about the aerodynamics of flying and how to do certain maneuvers. This is all just a little bit back beyond my memory, but I know that we didn't just

01:05:17.120 - 01:05:40.140

sit around too much when we were on the flight line waiting for our turn to fly. And I think usually the flight lessons were about an hour. And I had a very good primary instructor, really excellent, and I think maybe that's That's one reason why I did well in primary.

01:05:41.040 - 01:05:58.460

What airplane did you fly in primary? I think it was the Fairchild, the open cockpit, low wing. Do you recall your solo? I'm trying to think if I do or not.

01:05:59.080 - 01:06:20.740

Okay. No, I don't, because I had soloed a lot before. Anything unusual happen in the primary phase of training that you recall? Laney: I don't know whether it was primary or basic, but I was with an Army check pilot,

01:06:22.480 - 01:06:41.320

and this probably was basic. I was just really doing everything on the nose, and I was so proud of myself. All the forced landings, all the maneuvers, my altitude was just where it should be, my airspeed and everything else.

01:06:42.060 - 01:06:59.720

So we said, "Okay, let's get back to the field." Well I was just sitting there beaming at myself and didn't even look to see that the windsock had changed. And well, you know, this probably was primary because we didn't have radios in primary.

01:07:01.180 - 01:07:26.080

So here I am flying counter to every other airplane, and not even noticing it. Just flying along, happy as a lark. And all of a sudden, boy, he pulled back on that stick and we went zooming up in the air. And he started cussing and swearing.

01:07:27.500 - 01:07:50.000

I thought, "Oh boy, this is the end of me." So when we got back, I was standing in front of him in trepidation. He said, "You know what I want you to do? I want you to write me a one-thousand-word essay on why, when entering the flight pattern,

01:07:50.320 - 01:08:17.640

you should pay attention to the direction." So I really felt I got left off easy, pretty darn easy. Kelly: After you finished your primary training, then what happened? Levy: Well, we got into BT-13s, which were enclosed cockpit.

01:08:23.020 - 01:08:36.680

Is that where you got instrument training? Did you get instrument training at that point? Steele: You know, I think we did. I can't remember whether it was—I'm pretty sure we did.

01:08:37.900 - 01:08:55.300

I can remember that when we—two trainees would go up together and one would be under the hood and the other one would be able to navigate. I think that was in a B-13. Kelly: Describe what an auxiliary field was and how was it used?

01:08:56.250 - 01:09:14.540

Steele: Well, the auxiliary fields were used mainly for practice takeoff and landing, as I recall. But, you know, I'm really not sure about that. They may have taken planes over there in the morning and then flown some of the students

01:09:14.540 - 01:09:34.040

over so that there would not be so much traffic around the Sweetwater Field. I am not real sure, just do not remember. Kelly: Do you know how your program differed from that of the male cadets who were also taking training?

01:09:34.170 - 01:10:04.380

Steele: Well, just from what I have been told and have read, that it was very, very similar, that they had spent more time on aerobatics and we spent more time on navigation, because many of us would be faring planes. Kelly: While you were in training, were you aware of what the girls who had already graduated,

01:10:04.700 - 01:10:19.660

of what they were doing? Steele: No, I really wasn't. How long did your training last? Let's see, it was six months, maybe a week more than six months.

01:10:20.200 - 01:10:43.500

It was down there very near the first of August, and I think we graduated about February 9th. What were your uniforms like when you first got to Avenger to fly in or for dress? What did you wear? Well, we just had the khaki pants and a white shirt and the little—was it the general's

01:10:43.640 - 01:11:03.360

cap?—the little pointed cap. I'm not sure what they called it. And then, of course, for flying, we had the zoot suits, which were the coveralls that were in all-men sizes and were much too large for us.

01:11:05.580 - 01:11:27.240

We also had leather jackets and helmets. During the winter, I'm not sure, because I went to South Dakota after I graduated, and we had fleece-lined everything. It was so cold up there.

01:11:27.740 - 01:11:43.980

I don't remember at Sweetwater whether we did or not, but we did have some warm-weather attire to wear during the winter down there. Kelly: What was the feel like itself at Sweetwater? Were there lots of trees?

01:11:44.800 - 01:11:53.940

Describe the feel. Steele: In western Texas? Bear, bear, bear. Yeah.

01:11:55.100 - 01:12:26.540

And I really do not remember, but I have read that there were—sometimes the runways were covered with mesquite and all sorts of blowing plant life. I can't remember whether it was lizards or some kind of animal life that they said the trainees used to have to go and sweep the runways.

01:12:27.860 - 01:12:42.440

I don't ever remember doing that. It is the rattlesnake capital of the world. Right, and I do know that some of the trainees found them in their bays. I don't think we ever found one in ours.

01:12:44.060 - 01:13:10.660

At some time while you were in training, the uniforms changed. Tell me about that. Well, we were the first class to get uniforms for graduation. And alteration people were sent up to measure our class, and I understood that they came

01:13:10.700 - 01:13:41.820

up from Neiman Marcus, but I'm really not sure. And so when we got our uniforms, they really fit very well. And of course, we were thrilled to death with them, and we really looked cute in them. But I do know that some of the later classes did not have the advantage, especially those

01:13:41.880 - 01:14:02.900

that were already on active duty. They would just send so many size 12s or 14s or something, and I heard that they had a lot of difficulty in fitting properly. Kelly: While you were in training, did anything unusual happen or any incidents that you recall?

01:14:10.620 - 01:14:35.080

Steele: This has bothered me for a long time, ever since I found out about it. I arrived in August, and in September, an instructor and two of his students in an AT-17 crashed and were killed. I remembered nothing about that until I read it in a book.

01:14:35.920 - 01:15:06.200

I was there on the field when it happened. Talk about the power of repression. I must have been really horrified to repress that knowledge like I did. I really knew nothing about it until I read about it, consciously that is.

01:15:07.050 - 01:15:20.760

Do you recall any cross-countries that you might have made? Yeah, I do. That was the only time I was really frightened. This was when I was still in training and in advance.

01:15:21.820 - 01:15:45.540

We flew to Jackson, Mississippi, about five or six of us on a cross country. We got weathered in for a couple of nights. You get awfully bored and want to get going. I think about the third morning, the clouds started breaking up and people started taking

01:15:45.720 - 01:16:12.320

off and I did too. Just about the time that I left the pattern, the clouds closed in completely on me. It was just in soup. My radio, there was so much static on it that I could not tell.

01:16:15.720 - 01:16:36.720

I knew I would not be able to navigate by it. I really panicked. Just then, somebody is looking out for me. A big hole opened up below me, and I just dove down through it and went back and landed

01:16:36.800 - 01:16:56.800

at the field. It's the only time I've really been scared. I think one or two others also got back to the field, and the rest of them just landed all over the place in cow pastures and everything else that we really should not have been cleared

01:16:56.900 - 01:17:05.020

to take off in. What kind of airplane were you flying? I think I was in a six. What was your favorite aircraft?

01:17:06.160 - 01:17:19.140

Everybody has the same answer, don't they? An AT-6. While you were at Avenger, classes would graduate occasionally. What part would your class play in that graduation?

01:17:20.520 - 01:17:46.840

We always had parades, and I think every class got dressed in their dress uniforms, such And, each class had a flag bearer, and so we paraded. And I do remember sometimes the heat was just terrible during those parades. And then there would be visiting dignitaries, and we would stand at attention for the ceremonies

01:17:47.240 - 01:18:04.020

and so forth. It was fun to do, except a couple of times it was just awful hot. And always a few people would, a few of the trainees would faint. Let me ask you, what was your biggest adjustment that you had to make when you went into training?

01:18:07.300 - 01:18:34.960

Steele: Gosh, I am not sure that I felt I had to make any great adjustments. I say I am used to living in dormitory style living. I think, well, I'll tell you one thing, I think was that the military authoritarian atmosphere bothered me a little bit.

01:18:36.940 - 01:18:59.080

And I don't think that I ever adjusted fully to it. When you think of the number of demerits, my bay got. Now, tell me about your graduation. Well, it was in February, and so it was inside, I guess, in the gymnasium.

01:18:59.150 - 01:19:09.180

I cannot remember. Kelly: But you wore your new Saudi Arabian uniform? Dunn: Yes, we did. We wore our uniforms, and that was very nice.

01:19:11.960 - 01:19:27.880

My mother was unable to come. My stepfather was in the Army, and he was stationed in Spokane, and she was up there with him. Not a lot of the graduates had family that were able to come travel.

01:19:27.880 - 01:19:51.680

It was a little bit difficult in those days. Of course, we had to go right back to our bays and start packing. We were out of there the next morning, so I really do not recall much celebration afterwards. Kelly: Did your biological father know what you were doing?

01:19:51.700 - 01:20:05.020

Dunn: Yes, yes he did. Kelly: And what was his attitude toward that? Dunn: Oh, I think he was very proud of me. He would write occasionally, and he sent me a nice Christmas gift when I was there over

01:20:05.120 - 01:20:15.560

Christmas. That was hard, being there over Christmas. Yeah, that's one time I really got a little homesick. Kelly: Did he ever watch you fly?

01:20:16.020 - 01:20:23.920

Was he ever able to watch you fly? Lowry: No, no he was not. Kelly: When you graduated, were there some dignitaries there? Who pinned your wings on?

01:20:24.460 - 01:20:32.740

Lowry: Who did what? Kelly: Who pinned your wings on? Lowry: I do not have the slightest idea. Kelly: Okay.

01:20:33.380 - 01:20:43.280

Was Miss Cochran there? Lowry: No, she was not there for our graduation. Kelly: Any other dignitaries? Lowry: I just really do not remember.

01:20:43.820 - 01:20:51.060

Had you already gotten your orders before you graduated or did you get them on that day? Klemski >> I don't know. Kelly >> Okay.

01:20:52.060 - 01:21:15.020

What did your orders say? Klemski >> Well, the three troublemakers in my bay, myself and the other two, were assigned to Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And I just have a feeling that there was a purpose behind that assignment.

01:21:16.320 - 01:21:34.060

And in the middle of winter, that is a horrible place to be. We didn't get much flying in because of the weather. And when you even went outside, you had to wear a hood with just slits for the eyes and nose and so forth.

01:21:34.450 - 01:21:50.360

It was that bitter. was just bitter, bitter cold. And the three of us shared a barracks with some nurses, Army nurses, whom we just really never

01:21:50.600 - 01:22:01.940

made an effort to get to know. But our schedules were all different. And it was a coal stove. And it was absolutely the dirtiest place

01:22:01.940 - 01:22:21.060

I have ever been in my entire life. I was able to cover my clothes with a bag in this teensy closet, but your sheets and your pillowcases and everything would just be covered with soot. It was really just terrible.

01:22:21.740 - 01:22:29.580

That bothered me a great deal. Let me go back. We're going to change tapes. Oh, okay.

01:22:30.500 - 01:22:36.340

We're going to change tapes. We're moving on. We're not moving very fast. Are you getting tired?

01:22:36.560 - 01:22:53.560

No, I'm not getting tired. I think you would be. You know, if everybody had been real goody-goody, I probably would have been too. So it was all their fault? At this point, I'm thinking maybe you were the ringleader.

01:22:55.120 - 01:23:03.780

Well, I certainly did my share. Do you know Doris G.? I've heard of her a lot. We met her at Oshkosh.

01:23:04.590 - 01:23:06.580

Was she up there? Yes. Just recently? Yes.

01:23:06.920 - 01:23:09.720

No kidding? Yes. Oh, gee. You should have gone.

01:23:09.740 - 01:23:17.340

Is she as funny as ever? I don't remember talking to her. Maybe not. I mean, she was an absolute riot.

01:23:17.460 - 01:23:33.420

I've never been around anyone who was so much fun in all my life, and we were just really close. And, of course, I was a wonderful audience. You know, I just shrieked with laughter at everything she said. So I was definitely her favorite.

01:23:35.020 - 01:23:47.300

I would think she would be the exact opposite of you. Let me go back. I forgot to ask you, while you were in training, when you had some time off, how did you spend - well, you spent your time in the base.

01:23:49.200 - 01:24:03.580

I'm sorry to ask. Well, we got to the Avengerette Club occasionally. But between primary and basic, did you have perhaps several days off? Did you go anywhere, do you recall?

01:24:03.730 - 01:24:11.840

Steele: I never left Sweetwater. No. Kelly: The Avengerette Club. Steele: Yes, the Avengerette Club.

01:24:12.010 - 01:24:30.600

Kelly: And what would go on at the Avengerette Club? Steele: A lot of brown bag drinking. Lots of times some of the cadets from, let's see, Big Springs and where else were they? Kelly: Abilene.

01:24:30.710 - 01:24:57.320

Landis: Yeah, Abilene would drive over and come up to the Avenger Head Club. Of course, there was a jukebox and we danced. We would spike our Cokes and make the bus—bus, the cattle car—down there, wait and wait. And they'd say, "Last call.

01:24:57.940 - 01:25:13.180

We're leaving without you." And we'd do our very best to delay that departure. But it was kind of fun. I was able to get there a number of times.

01:25:14.100 - 01:25:27.300

Sometimes we would go in on the afternoon, and I think there was only one movie house and see a movie. Kelly: I know that after you graduated, you did have some time off. Did you go home?

01:25:27.300 - 01:25:38.180

Stenstrom: Yes, I went home. Kelly: Can you tell me how you felt wearing that uniform when you went home? Stenstrom: Pretty neat. It attracted a lot of attention.

01:25:38.660 - 01:25:57.520

It really did. And I saw some of my close friends, but when I went downtown shopping and wore it and so forth, I was lucky to run into a lot of acquaintances and really impress them. Kelly: Were they aware of what you were doing?

01:25:58.160 - 01:26:17.280

Steele: I think pretty much so. For one thing, there had been several articles in the newspaper, one in the Society magazine, And so, yeah, I think so. I don't remember anyone saying, "What are you wearing that uniform for?"

01:26:17.540 - 01:26:26.180

[Laughter.] Kelly: And the young man who had first got you interested in flying, where was he at this time? Steele: Well, I was still in college.

01:26:26.300 - 01:26:42.120

He crashed and was killed at the air base in Oklahoma. I think he was just too young and too reckless. They said he was doing either a slow roll or something at very low altitude. He was only nineteen.

01:26:45.940 - 01:27:01.060

Although we had pretty much broken up, I was very broken up about that. Kelly: Okay, from home then you went to South Dakota for your assignment. How did you get to South Dakota? Lowry: On the train.

01:27:01.090 - 01:27:10.020

Kelly: On the train. When you got to South Dakota, to whom did you report? Do you recall? Stenstrom: I suppose the CO.

01:27:10.190 - 01:27:26.660

Kelly: Okay. When you arrived, were there already other WASPs stationed there? Stenstrom: No, we three, Ms. Caltrans, were the only three up there. Kelly: What was your assignment supposed to be?

01:27:27.060 - 01:27:41.560

Stenstrom: Oh, it was very dull. It really was. They just had mostly cubs up there. We took radio students up so they could practice their radio activities.

01:27:42.520 - 01:27:58.580

What was the purpose of that air base? What kind of a training base was it, do you know? Well I don't know if it had other functions other than to train radio. I'm sure it must have, been to train radio personnel.

01:28:01.100 - 01:28:25.820

It was a fairly large base. They had a large officers' club, and then they had an officers' club in town, too, which was filled every night. There were some other planes, and I know that—I guess it was the CO took us up.

01:28:26.080 - 01:28:46.060

We had not flown AT-17s at Sweetwater. Some classes had them in, but our class did not. He took the WASPs up and checked us out in an AT-17. Coming back, I assume that he didn't object to having us on the field.

01:28:48.720 - 01:29:02.140

Did you ever fly the 17, except for getting checked out? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, down at Douglas Army Air Force Base. So at some point, you were transferred out of South Dakota?

01:29:02.580 - 01:29:18.040

Luckily, after about five weeks. And then did they fly you down to Douglas? No, we took a train to Santa Ana, California to be reassigned. And I think we had probably four or five days there.

01:29:19.120 - 01:29:45.000

And that was the first time I'd been in L.A. also. And we took a train up to L.A. and I lost my billfold. And I'm trying to think. Well, I know I had identification as a WASP in it, and not very much money.

01:29:49.540 - 01:30:13.800

And it must have been three or four months later that billfold was returned to me by mail and the money was gone. But I was really glad to get my, I do not know, maybe, exactly, I know I had WASP identification in there, whether I might have had my instrument cards, I do not remember.

01:30:15.060 - 01:30:33.860

But then we were reassigned, well, KDUSAC was not, but Bonnie and I were reassigned to Douglas Army Air Force Base, which is down on the Mexican border. Kelly: Okay. When you arrived there, where did you live?

01:30:34.430 - 01:30:46.880

Steele: We lived in civilian barracks on the field there. Kelly: Were there other women living in those barracks? Steele: Yes, civilians who worked on the field. Kelly: Okay.

01:30:49.000 - 01:31:11.700

What was your assignment at Douglas? I was in, I think they called it an engineering test pilot, that we would take up planes who had had repair or replacement of parts and go through the various maneuvers to be sure that it was all—wasn't going to crash and burn those cadets up.

01:31:11.700 - 01:31:26.020

Kelly: Okay. And what kind of airplanes were you flying there? Pretty much sixes. Let's see, I think AT-17s.

01:31:26.840 - 01:31:51.460

And then there was another plane, I believe it was 1819, was a very fast plane that landed at a high speed. I don't remember what it was. That was fun to fly. While you were at Douglas, did you have any temporary assignments to go to any other schools? Yeah, uh-huh. I went to Orlando.

01:31:52.220 - 01:32:13.960

And I've—usually it's called Officers Candidate School, but I think there really is another name for it. And this was like in June. I spent a month there. And I think that, I'm trying to think how many WASPs were there.

01:32:15.360 - 01:32:33.080

Quite a lot. What was the purpose of that school? Well, that was to prepare us for becoming officers. Were there also male officers?

01:32:33.080 - 01:32:47.480

Yes, not in our classes, but there were loads of males on the field. Who were your instructors there? Were they civilians or were they Army Air Force? I think most of them were Army Air Force.

01:32:51.200 - 01:33:11.860

I can remember one Army officer, and I'm trying to think what class he taught. And I think it was military law. And he was speaking on a platform. And this is really a neat trick if you want to keep your audience's attention.

01:33:13.620 - 01:33:25.920

He walked backwards to the edge of this platform, which was about this high. And then he would turn around and he'd walk backwards the other. And he always stopped right there. He never fell off.

01:33:26.840 - 01:33:52.880

And we were all just—but we had some interesting courses. We had aircraft identification, and I think we had one course—and we had chemical warfare. All these were designed to ease our minds, of course. And we had one called Arctic survival, which, you know, sort of worried me a little bit.

01:33:53.000 - 01:34:13.900

I did not think we were going to be flying in the Arctic, but you never knew. Kelly: Where did you live when you were going through that school? Steele: Oh, well, now these must have been like enlisted men's barracks. They were very, very long.

01:34:14.720 - 01:34:28.780

I would guess somewhere between twenty and thirty of us were in that one barrack. Maybe that might have been the size of the class, twenty or thirty WASPs down there at a time. I cannot remember.

01:34:28.990 - 01:34:38.080

Kelly: Okay. Did the other WASPs who were stationed at Douglas go with you? Stenstrom: No, I was the only one. Kelly: Do you know how you were selected to go?

01:34:38.410 - 01:35:03.660

Stenstrom: No, I do not know. And then I was on orders to go back to Sweetwater for advanced instrument training. I think this was in September, and it was also about a month's course. And did you live in the same barracks at Sweetwater as before?

01:35:04.910 - 01:35:20.180

Who instructed you when you went to Sweetwater? Were they civilians or Army? Well, civilian instructors, but then Army check pilots. And that training was to prepare you for what?

01:35:21.320 - 01:35:44.400

You mean for the instrument, the advanced instrument training? To be an instructor, perhaps? Nobody ever told me, and I did not ask. What were you flying at Sweetwater?

01:35:45.220 - 01:35:58.460

BTs or AT-6s? I really do not remember. And of course we had a lot more link training. And I think it was AT-6s.

01:35:58.550 - 01:36:11.960

Kelly: Okay. And then when you finished that course and passed it, you went back to Douglas? When you got back to Douglas, then what was your assignment? Steele: Doing the same things.

01:36:12.280 - 01:36:34.100

And I also transported non-flying personnel. I remember one officer needed to go to Kansas City, and luckily he asked me to fly him there. So I was able to visit my aunt and uncle. My mother was still in Spokane.

01:36:36.540 - 01:37:06.820

I remember flying several of them out to bases in California. I think that and the engineering test piloting was pretty much what we did there. I got back from Sweetwater about in October, and of course in October—probably late in October—was when we were informed that the WASP program was being disbanded as of December

01:37:07.040 - 01:37:30.700

20th. About that time, they got in B-25s at Douglas. Also at that time, I was on orders to go to California, and I can't remember which base it was, but it was a P-51 base.

01:37:34.660 - 01:38:03.460

By that time, the great demand was for pilots to pick up fighters from the factory and deliver them to the training bases or points of embarkation. In a lot of the other areas, there really was a surplus of pilots, both male and female, But this was really where they still needed them badly.

01:38:05.600 - 01:38:31.520

I had just gotten engaged to the man I married, and I had had to leave and go down to Sweetwater for a whole month, and I had just gotten back. And so I went to the CO, and I told him that I really would prefer to fly the B-25, that But I did not want to fly—well, they called them pursuits in those days.

01:38:32.880 - 01:38:55.120

And he was accommodating, and so I was able to stay on the field. But I got very little time in a B-25. I had a little first pilot time, but it was just in the general area. Let me go back, and let us find out when you met this special person.

01:38:55.380 - 01:39:08.520

Where were you? I was at Douglas just soon after I had gotten there. And there were some WASPs at Douglas. When Bonnie and I got to Douglas, there probably were only about three at the time.

01:39:10.780 - 01:39:34.920

And quickly got to be very good friends with one of them. And she said, "Oh, there's just the nicest boy I want you to meet." So she introduced us very quickly. What were the qualities that he possessed that attracted you to him?

01:39:36.920 - 01:39:56.980

Well, he was tall and good-looking and had broad shoulders and black curly hair. Good dancer? Not particularly. I was just really quite an adolescent at that time.

01:39:58.840 - 01:40:16.960

What was he doing at that airbase? He was in charge of the engineering department. He did a lot of flying himself, but he also oversaw the maintenance and repairs and so forth.

01:40:17.560 - 01:40:46.000

But he was restricted to low flight. I mean, he could not be sent overseas because he had a closed eustachian tube in his ear that prevented high-altitude flying, so he never was sent overseas. Lynn: What did you two do for social activities while you were at Douglas?

01:40:46.080 - 01:41:05.280

what most people in the military did. Kelly: Go to the officers club. Stenstrom: Go to the officers club in the pool there. There was always an orchestra, a little band, and we danced some, drank more.

01:41:09.440 - 01:41:29.800

We went bowling sometimes. We went to the movies on the field. There were a couple of little nightclubs out in farther west of Douglas, out towards Fort Huachuca, where a lot of the base personnel used to go to eat and dance.

01:41:31.020 - 01:41:51.940

One of them was called the Top Hat, and they had an outside dance floor. And they had, I guess you'd call them arbors all around with vines, flowering vines around them. And of course it's always clear in Arizona, so there's always a moon.

01:41:52.640 - 01:42:08.820

And there was a bandstand and an ice band and a big floor and all these wonderful young people in their uniforms. It was very glamorous, and I'm sure it must have been a dump. We just thought it was so glamorous.

01:42:09.800 - 01:42:21.720

How long did you date him before you became engaged? Did you become engaged at Douglas? Yes. Well, see, we really didn't see an awful lot of each other, because he was sent back to

01:42:25.320 - 01:42:40.040

New Jersey, I think it was, to attend some propeller school. And he was gone a month then. And then I think he was sent someplace else for more training. And then I went away twice.

01:42:42.220 - 01:42:55.120

But oh, I know what. When I was down in Orlando, he sent me an engagement ring. I guess he thought we probably wouldn't run into each other for quite a while. And he just sent it in the mail?

01:42:55.540 - 01:43:14.660

Sent it in the mail. And what was your reaction? I put it on. So when you, when the WASPs were disbanded, did the base do anything special?

01:43:16.060 - 01:43:24.800

No, I don't think they did. Not that I can recall. And I know some bases they did. But I just don't recall it.

01:43:26.420 - 01:43:45.960

I was married December the 8th and so I had already moved off the base. I came back in, I mean I continued in the program until it ended. But we got married and we moved into the Lone Star Motor Courts. Doesn't that sound great?

01:43:48.240 - 01:44:10.440

Just absolutely overflowing with cockroaches. And so we weren't there too long and then we moved up in Bisbee. Have you ever heard of Bisbee? Bisbee is up in the mountains above Douglas and the big copper mines were up in Bisbee

01:44:11.100 - 01:44:41.780

and it's in the mountains and the main street is Tombstone Canyon and it runs straight down the mountains down to the flatlands and everything is built up on the side. And we found an apartment on the corner of Moon Canyon and Tombstone Canyon. And I think by the time we moved up to Bisbee, the WASP had been disbanded.

01:44:41.840 - 01:44:55.480

I think we were in the Lone Star motor courts all the time from the 8th till the 20th. Let me back up and ask you about your wedding. Had you met his family? No, no.

01:44:56.100 - 01:45:01.460

Had he met your family? No. Tell me about your wedding. Well, we did have a church wedding.

01:45:03.180 - 01:45:12.020

What church? A Methodist church. And although I had been a Presbyterian, he was a Methodist, and I do not know why we decided on the Methodist.

01:45:13.240 - 01:45:41.840

And it was just very small. There were, let's see, I think just two WASPs were there and then a couple of the baymates who were civilians, and then some of his friends. His best friend was the veterinarian on the field, and then there was another non-flying

01:45:41.840 - 01:45:50.540

officer that was a good friend we often went out with. I don't think there were more than eight. Did you wear your uniform? No.

01:45:51.320 - 01:46:16.700

You know, that was one of the nice things about not being militarized, was that we dressed as glamorously as we possibly could. And the women in the military in uniforms hated us, because in the evening we'd put on our decollete gowns with the flowers in our hair and our short, short skirts and our

01:46:16.780 - 01:46:35.980

high, high heels. And I know they couldn't stand it. But no, I think I—I recall I had a winter white wool suit and why in the world—some sort of a black hat.

01:46:36.890 - 01:46:45.280

I wish I had a picture and I don't. I think somebody took some, but whatever happened to them, I do not know. Was he in uniform? Yes.

01:46:46.220 - 01:46:58.960

Then did you have a honeymoon? A weekend up in the mountains. And then once the WASPs were disbanded, how long were you stationed with him there? A whole year.

01:47:00.400 - 01:47:16.900

He was not discharged for a whole year. And what did you do during that year when he would be flying? How did you spend your time? Well, listening to radio soap operas a lot.

01:47:17.480 - 01:47:41.480

But I got pregnant a month and a half after we were married. So I don't know, I read a lot of books about prenatal care and postnatal care and delivery and all that sort of thing. And, uh...

01:47:42.360 - 01:47:51.920

So then where did you have your baby? I had my baby in the Copper Queen Hospital in Bisbee. What I had... Oh, this is really funny.

01:47:52.360 - 01:48:03.800

When I got pregnant, I decided this is no place to have a baby with these rude physicians down here. So I'm going back home. So, which I did.

01:48:04.020 - 01:48:28.280

And after I was about three months pregnant, I went home and found that, you know, everything had changed. Everybody was gone. They were married or they were still in the military someplace else. And I missed my husband. So I wrote him and I said, "You know, if you can find a really nice place to live, why?"

01:48:28.020 - 01:48:47.120

I think it would be best if I came back there and had the baby. Shortly after that, he wrote or called, I do not remember, and said, "I found something I think you will really like." So I packed everything up again and took the train down.

01:48:48.720 - 01:49:06.940

You have got to hear about this. So as I told you, Tombstone Canyon goes down between the mountains, and everything is built up like this. Well, this place he found, there was a path, and it was a concrete path.

01:49:06.990 - 01:49:17.560

I mean, there were steps. I did not have to climb up the wooded mountainside, but I would guess it was probably at least 500 steps. There was no road.

01:49:17.720 - 01:49:35.960

You could not drive up there and park your car there. You parked your car down on the street, and then you walked up. It seemed forever, and I was just puffing and panting every time. This place was so nice that the refrigerator was even in the bathroom.

01:49:38.700 - 01:50:02.040

It was really pretty sad. But luckily, we were only there about three or four weeks, and then we were able to get back the original apartment that we had in Bisbee, which was much nicer. Kelly: Then where were you stationed after he left Douglas?

01:50:03.720 - 01:50:16.880

Was he discharged at Douglas? Stenstrom: Well, yeah, he did have to go to—I cannot think what field it was in Illinois. I've forgotten. For--

01:50:16.880 - 01:50:26.800

Chenute? No, I've forgotten. I didn't go with him. We stopped in Kansas City, and I stayed with my mother

01:50:26.800 - 01:50:39.760

and stepfather. And he went on back wherever it was for a few days, and then came back to Kansas City. And then we left to go to his home, which was in Indiana.

01:50:40.800 - 01:50:54.580

And this was the first time then that you had met his parents? His mother had died in the meantime. You just visited them, and then where did you go? He was from Newcastle, Indiana.

01:50:56.600 - 01:51:13.580

His three sisters and his father lived there. One of his brothers-in-law owned several filling stations. Somehow or other, he had gotten the idea that his brother-in-law was going to take him into business with him.

01:51:17.980 - 01:51:44.760

It did not work out that way. We were living in his father's house, and he went to work in the Chrysler factory, which meant taking your lunch in a tin box and getting up at the crack of dawn and so forth. I guess when my parents are—I was really so dumb.

01:51:46.310 - 01:52:08.820

I never really planned for the future. When I think back, I had an extended adolescence. I was perfectly happy there. Of course, my mother and stepfather were very upset that my husband was a blue-collar worker

01:52:08.820 - 01:52:36.200

in a factory, and so they were able to get him an offer with an insurance company here. My husband was extremely ambitious himself. So we came back here, and of course that was during the housing shortage right after the war, and we had to live with my mother and stepfather in their apartment.

01:52:37.820 - 01:53:00.160

And it was extremely crowded with a baby, and so there were five of us in this small apartment with two small bedrooms and one living room and a kitchen with a little eating space. But we were there six months, and I think—my mother said she lost ten years of her life.

01:53:00.340 - 01:53:16.060

It was so horrible. But we finally found a very nice apartment. I mean it was nice for the times. We were in the apartment for four years before we bought our first house.

01:53:16.610 - 01:53:40.380

In the meantime, my husband had left the insurance firm and had gone to work for a company called Associated Aviation, which insured planes and so forth. So he was able to fly again. He flew out to the various flying schools and charter schools and what have you.

01:53:45.740 - 01:54:15.200

It was a very nice salary, and we liked it very much. Then he got an offer from one of his customers, who had an insurance agency in Denver, who a wonderful offer who said it gave him even a better salary and said that if he stayed with him five years, he'd give him half the business, just give it to him.

01:54:16.520 - 01:54:43.400

So we moved to Denver and we were there for about a year. And he got another offer from Bud Maytag, who was, you know, of the Maytag family, who had a company down there called Maytag Aircraft. He had aircraft servicing depots, or whatever you want to call them, in Europe and everywhere.

01:54:44.260 - 01:55:13.100

So he offered my husband the position of Director of Operations for Maytag Aircraft. So we moved to Colorado Springs. My husband had several assignments overseas that time. Of course, I was pregnant again and did not know a soul in Colorado Springs.

01:55:15.480 - 01:55:43.780

Our first house was sort of a Quonset hut type of place, but we were building a new house down near the Broadmoor. So of course he was overseas when I was due to deliver. I was absolutely frantic, and he got back I think three days before I finally delivered.

01:55:44.360 - 01:56:02.900

I had to move into this new house all by myself, take care of everything. Not that we had much to move at that stage of our life, that's for sure. How old was your little girl at that point? Let's see, Lynn would have been nine.

01:56:04.780 - 01:56:26.700

Yeah, the big difference in ages between the first and second one. So we were in Colorado Springs for about a year, and then my husband had another offer from a group of people in Kansas City who wanted to buy out a screen company and have my husband run it.

01:56:28.120 - 01:56:42.740

Well, this was his first opportunity to be the boss, to be really in charge. And he had always wanted his own business. There would have been four of them. He would not have owned the whole business.

01:56:43.820 - 01:56:57.420

So he came back to Kansas City, and I and the girls stayed in Colorado Springs to sell the house. We stayed for over two years, and it didn't sell. We turned down the first offer, which was a pretty good offer.

01:56:58.140 - 01:57:08.980

Don't ever turn down the first offer. But I had a really good time. I love my neighbors out there. And we just really had a ball.

01:57:11.440 - 01:57:26.580

But eventually, we decided that we were going to have to rent that house. And so the girls and I finally moved back to Kansas City. He had been living off and on with my mother and my aunt

01:57:26.580 - 01:57:44.500

and so forth. So then we rented a house in Kansas City and thought we would be there for a year. We took a year's lease, and it turned out that we were there for six years before we

01:57:44.720 - 01:58:02.780

finally built another house. He was working so hard trying to build up this business, and he finally bought out his other three partners and over the years built it into the largest architectural wood product company in the area.

01:58:04.540 - 01:58:16.780

So boy, am I going on and on. That's good. While your girls were growing up, how did you participate as far as their schools? Were you in PTA?

01:58:18.320 - 01:58:33.280

Or how did you spend your time? Well, you know, we moved so much, like with Lynn. She was in a different school, sometimes in the same city, and sometimes some of her classmates. But you know, they were building a lot of new schools then, and as the new school opened

01:58:33.380 - 01:58:54.480

up, if you were closer to that, she was in a different school every year until seventh grade. And then she graduated from there and went into high school. So I really—oh, and also when she was five is when I started back to school to get my

01:58:54.560 - 01:59:04.020

master's degree. So I was not too involved. Kelly: What were you interested in as far as a master's? Steele: In psychology.

01:59:04.420 - 01:59:22.100

Kelly: Where did you start school then? Steele: At UMKC, which was very close to where we lived. But before I was finished, we moved to Denver, and I had six hours left, which I took at the University of Denver.

01:59:23.060 - 01:59:45.360

But when we moved to Colorado Springs, there was no one to advise me on my thesis, so I had to wait until we moved back to Kansas City, and then I wrote my thesis, my master's thesis. Kelly: Then what did you do after you moved back to Kansas City?

01:59:45.820 - 02:00:00.540

You wrote your thesis. As far as education, what was the next step for you? I went to work. In the meantime, I had my son in 1960.

02:00:01.820 - 02:00:20.900

And in 1962, let's see, I got my master's degree in the late '50s, I think. Laurie was born in '55. We didn't move back to Kansas City until '57. And then I wrote my—yeah, it would have been the late '50s that I finally got my

02:00:20.980 - 02:00:40.560

master's degree. And then Will was born in 1960, and in 1962 I went to work as a school psychologist at Barstow School, which is a private school. And I was there for about six or seven years.

02:00:42.120 - 02:01:05.880

And then I became staff psychologist at the Florence Crittenden home, which was a home for unwed mothers, something that doesn't—I don't—it probably—there are some that still exist, but it's a whole different era. Being an unwed mother does not require that you go to a home and spend your time there.

02:01:06.560 - 02:01:15.260

There were Florence Crittenden schools, though, in other places. Were there? There was one in Texas. Was there?

02:01:16.100 - 02:01:37.100

Some or other, I just thought they were in Kansas City. Well, that's really interesting, yeah. About after I'd been there two years, our residence began to decline. It just wasn't necessary.

02:01:43.600 - 02:02:21.820

The director wanted to sort of divert it into a place for emotionally affected young people, adolescents, and so forth. And eventually, she was able to get funding and build an enormous campus out in southeast Kansas City, where they have inpatient and outpatient therapy for disturbed children.

02:02:22.980 - 02:02:45.660

While you were working as a psychologist in these places, did you have classes, or was it just an individual one-on-one? What I did was, my field of specialty was learning disabilities, and Barstow had a special teaching program for children with disabilities.

02:02:45.840 - 02:03:15.020

So they had individual and quite comprehensive testing of children before they entered Barstow. In my tests, there was an intelligence test and a personality test and achievement tests, and it usually took about two hours. And then I had to write a pretty comprehensive report of each child with recommendations

02:03:15.620 - 02:03:38.560

for whether or not they should stay at that grade level or go back, or what sort of special tutoring they should have and what methods and things like that. So it was more in the educational field. Do you recall any student that you counseled that you have followed?

02:03:41.100 - 02:03:50.800

No. For a while I did. I sort of knew their mothers, and if I'd run into them, I'd say, "How is so-and-so doing?" and so forth.

02:03:51.560 - 02:03:59.120

But no, it's been a long time. so okay. Last day. This will be the, well unless,

02:03:59.860 - 02:04:06.940

well yeah, unless she has a whole other life to do the last day. [Laughter] Let me get you some more iced tea then.

02:04:07.020 - 02:04:19.220

Oh I'm fine, I'll get it. After, uh, what was your next step as far as your education was concerned?

02:04:20.780 - 02:04:44.560

Did you do, uh, I was trying to think after, just about the same time that the Crittenden home pretty much shut down and changed their focus, I went over to UMKC and talked to them about being admitted for doctoral study.

02:04:46.180 - 02:05:12.800

I must say that I was not given much encouragement. One professor told me that I was over the hill. I was fifty at the time. Sometimes I think that I lacked a lot of maturity for a lot of years, but I was persistent.

02:05:13.580 - 02:05:29.620

That's one thing. I just simply didn't give up. I just went from one to another until I found somebody that said he would be my advisor and help me in any way he could.

02:05:33.180 - 02:05:45.060

I did well on the graduate—what do they call it? The GRE? The GRE? Graduate Record Exam?

02:05:45.060 - 02:06:11.880

Yeah, yeah. And so it took me an awfully long time to achieve my doctorate, because I did have children and a rather demanding husband. What was that important to you?

02:06:13.820 - 02:06:32.960

I don't know, except that the older I get, the more achievement-oriented I get, and I'm still that way. I guess, I don't know, I keep thinking, "Well, is it because you know that there's not that much time left and there's still things you want to do, or what?"

02:06:32.960 - 02:06:59.400

But I started out as a young person, really very unambitious, and the older I get, the more ambitious I am to accomplish more things. But I think in my later years it's not to accomplish things for myself, and I hope it isn't, that for the last 20 years I have been a very active advocate for the elderly.

02:07:00.640 - 02:07:24.680

And so I like to think anyway that I want to accomplish something for someone else. So how long did it take you then to get your doctorate? About six years. I only, except for the two semesters that you're required to take twelve hours each,

02:07:26.420 - 02:07:47.960

I would usually take six hours a semester. And then the dissertation just went on and on and on. That was the toughest thing of all. Kelly: Since you have gotten that degree, how have you used that?

02:07:49.080 - 02:08:18.960

Stenstrom: Well, not much at all, to tell you the truth. By the time I got the degree, I was so exhausted. I did not want to get up and go to any job on a daily basis. I was still doing a little bit of private consulting for learning disabilities.

02:08:20.860 - 02:08:45.900

And I just decided I don't want a job anymore. I'm getting up there, I want to do something else." So I started, I got active in the environmental movement, then I got active in the peace movement, and in the women's movement, and lately it's been the elderly movement, the aging movement,

02:08:45.980 - 02:08:58.900

I guess. And by the time you finished your doctorate, had your children already graduated and left home? Steele: Let's see.

02:09:05.440 - 02:09:26.740

No, I think just the one, just the older one. And now, besides this wonderful dancing that you're doing, how do you spend your time? Oh, you know, some people would think, "How can you stand going to all those meetings all the time?" I love meetings.

02:09:29.440 - 02:10:10.580

I'm on a lot of boards, and I'm chair of several of them. Tell me some of those that you really enjoy, some of the boards that you're on. Okay, well some of my favorites I'm no longer on, but right now I'm chair of AARP's local advocacy group. I am also founding a senior advocacy network at the present time and that's kind of challenging.

02:10:11.400 - 02:10:33.620

I like to come up with, see a need and come up with a creative idea. Like I founded the senior leadership program in Johnson County. As far as I know it's the only one in the state. And its purpose is to recruit, train, and motivate active older adults to seek leadership

02:10:33.860 - 02:11:00.720

positions in the community. We will be having our sixth annual program starting this month, and it's a 50-hour course. We have graduated about 90 people so far, and our graduates, not all of them by any means but a lot of them are serving in policy making, decision making, positions in the

02:11:00.800 - 02:11:24.860

community on all sorts of commissions and boards and task force and some of them in elected office and city councils and so forth. So that's been very satisfying. And also I founded the Wonderful Older Women Award to bring attention to the qualities

02:11:25.010 - 02:11:50.860

and the accomplishments of older women. And I founded the Re-Entry Women Awards program, which recognizes and assists the mature woman who goes back to college or maybe enters for the first time. Many of these are single mothers, not all of them.

02:11:52.220 - 02:12:12.820

They usually have at least a part-time job and they are doing very well in school. They have to have a certain grade point average. And I want to tell you, I started this 15 years ago. These are the most fantastic women I have ever heard of in my entire life.

02:12:13.300 - 02:12:31.320

Their stories are unbelievable. There are women who, and most of them just don't have enough money to even buy gasoline for their cars. One woman last year, her car broke down.

02:12:31.320 - 02:12:53.820

She didn't have any money to fix it, so she rode her bicycle to college. It was eight miles each way. She rode it all during the winter, rain, shine, sleet, or whatever. There is a woman with five children and no husband who was a school bus driver, had to

02:12:53.880 - 02:13:12.180

get all of her five children up around five o'clock in the morning and take them with her until it was time for them to go to school. They all managed to, a lot of them managed to take a full course, college course and get great grades.

02:13:12.680 - 02:13:31.000

They're active in their children's activities. When we, we have a luncheon every year for them and usually we honor about six or seven of them and we're all just sitting there with the tears running down our eyes that these unbelievable women, just, just great.

02:13:31.840 - 02:13:40.440

So what was your question? What you're doing and now you've told me. I guess so. Yeah.

02:13:40.620 - 02:14:02.720

Now tell me about your children. Well, let's see. Lynn is the oldest and she has worked pretty much as an accountant. She does not have a degree.

02:14:04.440 - 02:14:18.480

She only went to college three years. She got married very young and divorced. I absolutely adore her present husband. He is so great to me.

02:14:18.560 - 02:14:45.700

He's just wonderful. She does a little part-time work in a gift shop just to kind of keep busy. She had a daughter when she was very young. My first granddaughter is in her mid-thirties, and she teaches business and computer science

02:14:45.740 - 02:15:02.020

in high school. She has a law degree and an MBA, and I don't know how many we thought, but she never quit going to school. And my second daughter, Lori, I adore her husband also.

02:15:02.120 - 02:15:23.740

I think I like my in-laws better than my children. She has a four-year-old, and she was not born until Lori was 42. And Lori's only been married about ten years. And so she is a full-time mother, and she's an absolute wonderful mother.

02:15:24.700 - 02:15:47.600

that she's really providing an enriching environment for that child. I don't know how the child stays awake all day because they're just doing one thing after another. And then my son, the youngest, he just moved from here to Scottsdale with his family and two children. And it's very hard on me, but

02:15:47.600 - 02:16:05.560

But he's in residency at the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, so I'm very happy for him. And he is certainly one of the oldest. He's 41 years old in residency. When did he decide to go into medicine?

02:16:05.560 - 02:16:31.420

Well, you see, he and Lori both worked in my husband's business. And so when my husband was no longer able to run the business because of his mental problems and so forth, it was sold in 1992, Lori would have liked to have kept the business, but Will hates the business world.

02:16:33.000 - 02:16:58.100

And the opportunity, you know, it took an awful lot of determination and risk to enter medical school at that stage in his life. But when the business was sold, the opportunity was there. So he had to go back to college and take a lot of science courses that he had never taken

02:16:58.360 - 02:17:20.640

before, too. And so it took an awful lot of preparation before he was admitted to medical school. So this is his first year of residency down there. Are you able now to have family reunions since you're so kind of scattered?

02:17:21.460 - 02:17:33.200

No, not really. And unfortunately, my two daughters don't get along too well. And so it's not quite like it used to be. Right.

02:17:35.020 - 02:17:46.600

Marjorie, let me ask you, in our lifetimes we have good times and bad times. Sure. Happy times and sad times. What has gotten you through the sad times?

02:17:49.260 - 02:18:10.880

Oh gosh, does anybody really know? Because I mean, I think some people think their religious beliefs do, but I'm pretty much an agnostic, so I really can't say that. I don't know, it's just a matter of necessity is the way I feel about it.

02:18:11.230 - 02:18:36.500

KLK: Where did that support—you must have needed some support from someplace. Where did it come from? Well, I'm just trying to think that my mother has only been gone about five years. She was about 95 when she died.

02:18:37.640 - 02:19:02.720

And although we were not terribly intimate, we were together a great deal. You know, I knew I could count on her. When I'm thinking about my children, yeah, they've certainly been supportive. Because probably the most difficult time I've had is with my husband.

02:19:03.740 - 02:19:21.820

And although he had many fine qualities and he was an extremely hard worker and very ambitious and cared for his family, was also a very controlling kind of person. And I'm a very independent person. There's a little clash right there.

02:19:22.380 - 02:19:46.780

But you went back to school. I did everything I wanted to do regardless. Let me ask you, what do you think the legacy of the WASP will be? Well, I feel that for a long time it didn't really have a legacy, and that's because it

02:19:46.660 - 02:20:17.920

just wasn't well well-known enough. And I and I feel that there have been undertakings such as documentaries and books and and the very important thing that you all are doing that that are there going to make it well known now. And I do think that although times have changed a great deal and we do know that women are

02:20:17.960 - 02:20:47.600

in almost every field of endeavor, yet they're in short number in certain areas, certainly in business, top business executives and so forth, in legislative bodies they're in short number. But I think there are lessons to be learned not only from the WASP experience, but from

02:20:47.800 - 02:21:13.980

a lot of other contemporary women who are doing unusual things too. But you asked me about the WASP legacy. I do believe it will be important the more and more people know about it. I feel that whenever it's mentioned, somebody will say, "Did you know that Marjorie was

02:21:14.040 - 02:21:28.540

a Wash? She was a military pilot in World War II." That people act not only surprised, but, "Gee, wasn't this wonderful? Isn't it great that women can do these things?

02:21:29.920 - 02:21:59.260

So it's kind of hard for me to evaluate how widespread our influence will be, but I'm certainly certain it will have some influence. What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP program? Well Jacqueline Cochran is one of the most amazing persons I've ever heard about and

02:21:59.340 - 02:22:22.700

everything I know about her I've read because I really didn't, you know, I didn't know her and we really didn't talk much about her when we were in the program. Now there may have been some classes that did, but ours we just seldom saw her. We were just interested in what we were doing and we didn't think about how in the world

02:22:22.800 - 02:22:41.260

did this unusual thing happen. Took things for granted, I'm afraid. But reading about her, she was an amazing person. I think she accomplished things that maybe nobody else could have accomplished.

02:22:44.760 - 02:23:05.220

She was brash and bold and self-confident and absolutely determined and ambitious, and nobody could stop her. So I think that she is certainly the principal reason the WASPs existed and that there will be a legacy.

02:23:07.220 - 02:23:34.140

Of all the things that you have done, and you've done a lot of things and gotten a lot of degrees, what is the one thing that you are most proud of? Well, although I'm certainly proud of being a WASP, I don't think that is it. I think I had a wonderful opportunity given to me, and I had a wonderful time.

02:23:35.360 - 02:24:06.280

And although I'm sure I contributed somewhat, I think that I was the beneficiary. I think some people might say, you know, that I have instilled certain qualities in my children that I feel are very important. I think I've been an average to good parent, but maybe not an excellent one.

02:24:08.480 - 02:24:33.600

I guess what I think really is the most important is the work I'm doing to improve the quality of life for older adults, to elevate their image and status in life, at least at this particular time I feel it's very important. So if you could live your life over, what would you change?

02:24:40.040 - 02:25:10.600

Hmm. I don't, I'm really not sure because if you change one thing then it's going to change other things that I'm glad happen. I think probably I would have hoped to mature a little earlier instead of been a silly adolescent for so long. Maybe I would have made a few

02:25:10.600 - 02:25:36.200

wiser choices along the way. But all in all, I'm very grateful for the life I've had. If you could say something to future generations, to your grandchildren or your great-grandchildren in the future, or to children that you will never know, what would you like to say to them that might encourage them to have hope?

02:25:37.780 - 02:26:04.520

Well, you know, what I think I've discovered is probably the most important thing for not only a good life but a worthwhile life is to find something that not only interests you but that you're passionate about and that you can pursue not only for your benefit but for the benefit of others.

02:26:06.520 - 02:26:33.860

I think if you don't find something that you really love, that you're going to miss out on life a great deal and you're not going to accomplish as much. And I suppose the other thing would be to say that you shouldn't be afraid to fail, and we all have that fear of failing, and I've had it many times, and have probably

02:26:33.860 - 02:27:09.280

drawn back on several things I wanted to do because of it. But failing is a learning process. So no matter what you want to do, what your inclinations are, don't be afraid of failing. Don't ever feel that you're not good enough, and especially to young women, that there pursue any avenue in life that you want to and you're lucky now because these are the

02:27:09.340 - 02:27:19.380

times when you can. Marjorie, I can't thank you enough. Well, I can't thank you enough. You have been an absolute delight.

02:27:19.560 - 02:27:32.220

I want to ask you, I've got a few, can I ask you, I'm going to take one of my headsets off here. We are creating web pages for every WASP and you are one of the few people that I've met that knew Kay.

02:27:32.880 - 02:27:51.900

That what? That knew Kay. K. Disack. Did I hear you? Yes. That you what? That knew K. Oh that knew K. I'm sorry. Can you tell us about her? What was she like? Oh well I liked K very much. We all did. She

02:27:51.900 - 02:28:08.520

was very agreeable. You know she just never seemed to get upset about anything. But we really didn't know much about her. We were not particularly, although we spent a lot of time with her and she was one of those that was always ready for some sort of little prank.

02:28:11.770 - 02:28:40.300

She was a lot older, more than ten years older, and maybe close to fifteen. But I mean we just really didn't think that she was too old for us or anything like that. She was just different, and maybe it was because she was more mature. I knew she was married and that her husband was overseas.

02:28:43.700 - 02:29:02.580

I did not know anything about her earlier life, which was absolutely fascinating. Do you all know about this book? What was her field? Oh shoot, forensics.

02:29:05.300 - 02:29:24.020

That she was the first woman handwriting, was it handwriting analyst? Oh gosh, I've got this information somewhere. You haven't heard about this? Gosh.

02:29:25.300 - 02:29:37.820

I wonder where my material is on this. I'm sure I saved it, but I don't know where it was. I was— Levy: Can you tell me what kind of prank?

02:29:38.760 - 02:29:56.260

What kind of pranks? Stenstrom: Oh, nothing really serious, but she was not one of the goody-goodies. She was like Doris Gee in me and Bonnie Edmonds. I mean, she was in on anything.

02:29:57.460 - 02:30:19.940

I know that liquor was not allowed on the base, but she was one of those that buried a bottle for New Year's Eve celebration outside our cabin. She just sort of went along. I mean, we didn't really do anything terrible, but she was always ready.

02:30:20.300 - 02:30:26.780

Is she the one that wore her ring inside? Who was that? I don't remember. I don't remember.

02:30:27.160 - 02:30:41.900

But Kay, you know, when Kay was in college, she and a college friend stowed away on a boat to Hawaii. Had you ever heard that? They were discovered about the time they got to Hawaii.

02:30:43.160 - 02:31:09.360

And I don't know whether they sent them back on the boat. What happened? I can't remember, but I think she was just married twice. The first man she married was in the same field, in forensics, and she was in one of

02:31:09.400 - 02:31:26.620

the first laboratories that was established in this country. I think it was part of the University of Chicago. My memory is getting so bad. This has only been a couple of years ago that I talked to this man and gave him some information

02:31:26.730 - 02:31:39.940

I had and sent some pictures. Then he sent back some material. He learned about her. You know, if you would really like it, I would be glad to hunt for it and mail it to you.

02:31:39.940 - 02:31:48.060

Kelly: Okay. We can do that later. What, okay, let me ask you, you spent a Christmas at Avenger. Do you remember anything about that Christmas?

02:31:49.900 - 02:32:04.560

Anything special that was, that happened? >> Well, we did have a Christmas tree, and I've got a picture of Bonnie and Lorraine digging up some scrubby little tree. [LAUGH]

02:32:06.760 - 02:32:31.820

Let's see, I know a boy I was dating over at, He was a bombardier, came over, and brought me a lot of little trinkets. I was really disappointed, because I expected a gold bracelet or something. But I do not think we left the base that day.

02:32:32.100 - 02:32:45.800

I do not recall. There probably was some sort of carols there. I just do not remember. Can I ask you, in the last, I was going to ask you, you took officer training and you

02:32:45.920 - 02:33:00.660

talked about Arctic survival. What did you learn about Arctic survival? Steele- I don't have the slightest idea. And then somebody else mentioned that they went down there and they had something in

02:33:00.660 - 02:33:17.180

desert survival and what sort of creatures that you could kill and eat safely. And you know, it was how to, you know, how, what things could you possibly catch and kill or whatever. I don't remember.

02:33:17.710 - 02:33:25.920

I knew you were going to do it. Do you have a favorite word? That I use now or that I use? A favorite word.

02:33:26.480 - 02:33:41.160

A favorite word. That's a strange question. Uh-huh. I don't know, I get a lot of them from my granddaughter, the four-year-old, who says,

02:33:43.200 - 02:33:59.460

let's see, well she goes, "Duh." And yeah, yeah, whatever. I don't think I have a favorite word. Do you have a favorite word?

02:34:00.360 - 02:34:07.440

What's that? Hope. Oh, you were thinking seriously. Good word.

02:34:07.760 - 02:34:22.780

No, I say it a lot, too. Oh, well, this has been fun, but I feel like I've just talked way too much. No, you haven't. No, you haven't. There's some wonderful, wonderful things in there.

02:34:24.440 - 02:34:40.320

Well, of course, this makes me want to hear everybody else's story. Can you imagine? And we get to hear them all? I know. How blessed we are. You know, it's it really I've told Nancy even if we get funded I'm gonna hate to give this up because

02:34:41.220 - 02:34:56.920

You're number 60. Uh-huh. So you I can go back and tell you things from each of those. Can you really? Isn't that amazing? That are just different from everybody else's. Well now this wonderful. Oh my gosh Yeah, time flies