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There are rules, Mom. What? The rules are, Marie, that you are in charge. Oh.

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If you want to stop, we will stop. OK. If you don't want to answer a question, just say, go to the next question.

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And we are fine with that. OK. OK. I am.

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They're not that far yet. I'm rolling. OK. I'm Deanie Parrish, and we're in the home of Marie Clark

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in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Marie was a WASP, Class 44-1. Today is the 20th of July, 2001. Okay, Marie, if you would tell us your name and where you were born. I am, I was Marie Mountain, and my whole name now is Marie Mountain Clark, and I was born in Iowa.

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My home was in Iowa. I was born at West Liberty, Iowa. Tell me about your mother and your father. Well, my mother, my father was born on a farm, lived on a farm near my mother's farm. And my mother would know when we need the bells.

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My mother would know when my father was coming to visit her, because he would hear her sleigh bells. These are half of the sleigh bells. My sister and I both wanted them.

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So my father sat down and cut them in two. So we both have some. But they were at West Liberty, Iowa. They were, they both graduated from high school,

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Springdale High School, in the same class. They, what was I going to say? - What kind of farm did your dad live on? What did they farm?

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- I suppose it was a grain farm, that kind of farm. And my mother was on a farm that fattened cattle. - I'm gonna stop. - Okay, wait just a minute.

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- Those were such early days. I'm just talking. - Okay, go ahead. - Those were such early days,

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sort of pioneer days, actually, in Iowa. Their high school, Springdale High School, was the first, dedicated first, what is the word I want?

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First registered, anyway, high school in Iowa. - Maybe accredited high school. - Whatever it is. - Yeah, okay.

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- It was the first one in Iowa, actually. And they graduated in the same class in high school. They graduated in 1906. A class of 13, and I think about eight of them

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were married within the class, including my parents. My mother's sister was also in that class and she married one of the other class people and they had a double wedding, actually. So after they got married, Marie, where did they live? They lived there for about three years, then they moved to Des Moines.

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And I was born though, West Liberty near Springdale, but my sister was born in Des Moines. My father established a dairy of purebred Guernsey cattle. And so this was a dairy farm on which I grew up. Was the dairy farm out in the country?

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Just right next to the town. It was in the little town of Clover Hills, actually, and my father was mayor of Clover Hills. So he sometimes had some arguments to settle as the justice of the peace.

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What are your first remembrances of being on that farm, that dairy farm? I don't remember. My father designed a barn, a very modern, beautiful dairy barn. And I, my first memory seemed to be as that bond was being built. Do you remember, did you ever learn to milk a cow?

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I did, right? No. Where, where did you start school? In what was called Valley Junction at that time.

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The name later was changed to West Des Moines, so when I speak of West Des Moines, it's still that original town. I went to Lincoln School in Valley Junction and went to kindergarten. They even had kindergarten in those days.

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I went to junior high nearby. We walked actually to school. It was a mile and a half to the grade school and a mile and a quarter to the junior high and a mile and a quarter to the senior high.

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They were all there. In elementary school, do you recall any teachers that you had? Oh yes, I had some wonderful teachers. One was the music teacher, actually.

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I became a musician later. She was a wonderful thing. She would get a group of us together at lunchtime and we would sing together. And I had perfect pitch, so I read, I did the lower one because I could read it and

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sing it, even though my voice was not that low. So you sang alto? Well, yes, even though I don't have an alto voice, I did it because I love to read music. Even at that time I was reading music.

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Well, I started piano lessons, I guess, about second grade and started flute lessons about fourth or fifth grade. So music was my thing and it remained my thing for the rest of my life. We had a wonderful kindergarten teacher.

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Some people thought she was kind of cross, but she was a wonderful teacher. What other teachers did I have? Beside music, what subject did you enjoy? Oh all of them.

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Geography, mathematics, just everything and I had wonderful teachers in all of them. These were all great, great teachers. Right. Marie, in elementary school, how large was your class?

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Was it a big class? No, this was not a big town. It was a town of about 3,000 people, so you can imagine that the classes were not large. In my last year of high school, Mr. Edgar, who was in charge of the instrumental music

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at Roosevelt High School in Des Moines, coaxed my family to let me come over there because he needed a flute player. I had won the year before the state contest with my flute,

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so he knew about me and coaxed my parents to let me go to school there. So the last year of high school, I went to Roosevelt High in Des Moines.

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As you were growing up, how did you spend your summers? Did you go on vacation? Not very often. My father was very busy, but occasionally we did.

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He liked to fish, so we would go to Minnesota often to go fishing. Could you tell me about your grandparents? Yes. My grandparents, Mountain, grandfather and grandmother Mountain, lived in West Liberty,

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where I was born. They lived on a farm and my parents actually, after they were married, lived on that farm for three years before they moved to West Liberty, before they moved to Des Moines. Atencio And would you go out to visit your grandparents?

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Litz Yes. Actually, it's east to West Liberty. Yes, We would be there and my grandmother made candy. She was a great, wonderful cook and I wish I could ask her some of her recipes now. But the candy, she always had candy on hand.

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I think my grandfather enjoyed candy. Well, they moved into town after my parents moved to their farm for their first three years. What are your remembrances of your grandfather?

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What do I remember about him? He was quite quiet, but he would sing one little song to us, and it was, oh no, I must not sing that song. Sure, sing it for us. It's about the wrong color.

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That's okay. It was, "Run, nigger, run, it's the white man catcher. Run, nigger, run, it's almost day." So you know what that was about.

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But that's about the only attention I remember from my grandfather, because he was quite quiet and my grandmother was not quiet. Oh, good. And your other grandparents, where did they live?

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Well, they lived on the farm where my mother and father were married, because that was mother's home, but the later they moved into West Branch, which is not far from West Liberty, up on the highest hill in town, and we visited there many times. >> Okay. Marie, tell me what a Christmas was like in your home.

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>> We didn't spend a lot of money on Christmas. My father, we didn't have a fireplace at that first house that we lived in in Des Moines. He built a little fireplace for us with cardboard boxes and covered them with crepe paper that imitated brick, you know, and put a chimney on top of it with snow around the top, which was cotton. He put lights on it, and that

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was our Christmas decoration, but we didn't... Did you hang up stockings? I think we must have, but I really don't remember them very well. It's that little fireplace.

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Right. Later on, did you have Christmas trees? Oh, yes, we did. I guess we always had a Christmas tree.

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Okay. And when would you celebrate Christmas? On Christmas Eve or Christmas Day? I think Christmas Eve, because people were so busy during the daytime.

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We sometimes would go to my grandfather Pearson, who was my father, my mother's father, for Christmas and sometimes to my other grandparents for Christmas. Do you remember what a Christmas dinner would be like? I remember that at my grandfather Pearson's they were always given a goose from one of

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their farms. My grandfather had several farms and the people on one of the farms would give them a goose. which I never wanted to eat. [Laughter]

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Do you remember any special present, one present, that you got at a Christmas that was meaningful to you? I got a big doll one time. Maybe that is the thing I remember most. My grandfather, Martin, made a table for me and my sister. And my parents gave us a table that they bought the same Christmas, which was unfortunate.

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So my grandfather had worked hard on that table, I know. Those grandparents moved to Des Moines later. I had a cousin who lived in Des Moines who had blood poisoning. My uncle, his father was an M.D. and he kept him alive for a year after he became ill with

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that infection. he finally died. My grandparents moved out to Des Moines because they wanted to be right there to know how Billy was. I apologize. I think they're going to be quiet for a while.

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We're going. She's doing great. elementary school, did you have any ambitions? Did you know what you wanted to do when you grew up? I think so. My parents always taught music to me and made sure that I had the best lessons

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in music, in both piano and flute. When did you get your first flute? When I was nine years old, that's when I started flute lessons. That was, well, then we bought the flute so I could play it.

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Okay. In your elementary school, did you have a little orchestra? Not in that one. That was too small.

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We just had that little singing group. But in the junior and senior high, we had an orchestra and band, not very large, not very good. In junior high, in addition to your music, were you interested in anything else?

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I was always interested in everything I was studying and everything that came along. As you see, we have lots of bird pictures along the wall there. I loved Latin. I had a wonderful Latin teacher that was great.

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I loved math. I loved, what else? English. All of those subjects.

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Right. Were you into sports of any kind? Not necessarily. I liked to swim, and I liked to play tennis.

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I wasn't particularly good at. Right. As a young child, do you remember any of the games you played? Yes, we played outside, especially in the summertime. It was nice to have late evenings so we could play hide and seek outside.

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From your early childhood, did you make any lasting friendships with children? Oh yes, I had lots of friends. Do you remember in junior high school and high school, what were your social activities like?

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Oh, we always belonged to church. There were church activities. My parents were very active in church, so we always went. I was a campfire girl.

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I became one when I was twelve, I think. And we had a wonderful mother who chose the people she wanted to have in our campfire group. She had two daughters herself, who were only a year apart, so she chose a group of ten,

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including her own daughters. In Campfire Girls, did you ever go on a camping trip? Yes. There was a camp at Boone, Iowa, which is north of Des Moines, a few miles on the Des Moines River, actually.

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Do you want me to stop talking? Well, Marie, let me ask you, where do you think you got your musical? My father. Your father.

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Yes. What did he play? He sang. He sang.

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He was very, very musical. His parents wanted him to learn to play piano when he was a child, but boys didn't play piano out in the country in those days, so he didn't do it. But after they moved to Des Moines, he took voice lessons.

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Did he sing in church choirs? Yes, always. Oh, that's great. Yes, I loved to sing.

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Good. You finished junior high school and went into high school. You were still playing the flute? Oh yes, I always played the flute up until a few years ago.

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In high school, did you have like football teams and basketball teams and did you play in a band that played for those events? Not in that school, but when we went to Roosevelt High, it was a much larger school and much larger band in August, very fine ones actually, so they would play at high school games.

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I know you told us off camera about going to Roosevelt High School. Tell us about that again, why you changed schools. All right, well I had won the state contest with my flute, and Mr. Edgar, who was conductor of the instrumental music, if Roosevelt needed a flutist who could play, really play. So

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he came out and coaxed my parents to let me go to Roosevelt High so I could play in the Hispanic Orchestra. How far was Roosevelt High from where you lived? I guess three miles probably.

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And how did you get back and forth to school? I would ride with some neighbor girls who were going to Drake University and they went right by Roosevelt. How did you enjoy that school as compared to your other school?

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I enjoyed it very much because of the fine music that it had. Nice people, well there were nice people in our other school too. As you were growing up, who were your role models? My role models?

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Oh, my parents, for one thing. They were wonderful, and they were so devoted to us and encouraged us in all that we wanted to do, gave us all kinds of self-confidence. I suppose that's why I could fly.

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When you were in high school playing your flute, did you also play it for anything at church? Yes. Oh, I played solos many times for different groups.

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My mother was very active in women's groups, and she would often have me play for her groups. She was proud of me. How did your mom and dad participate in your school? Were they in PTA?

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- Yes, and always well acquainted with all our teachers and have conversations with them. And so the teachers always knew that our parents were very much interested in what we were doing.

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- What kind of student were you in high school? - I was a good student. (laughing) Who isn't when they're telling the story?

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(laughing) Do you recall your high school prom? I don't think there was a prom at that time. Recall, please, your high school graduation.

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Of course, my graduation was finally from the big school, and there were 265 people, I think, from my school in my class, but there were four high schools in Des Moines, and It was a graduation that all of them were in at the same time. Did you have caps and gowns?

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Yes, we did. Where was it held? Was it in a stadium? It was in the great big auditorium, which is now called the KRNT auditorium, I think. It was the Shrine Temple at that time that held many thousand people.

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Do you recall your grandparents coming to your graduation? I don't think they were alive at that time. My grandfather Pearson had just died just before that, and these two had gone. My grandfather, they were both alive.

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I don't think they did. probably were not able to. When I was in Drake after graduation, going to take in classes, my grandmother would have me come to her apartment for lunch often.

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In fact, she wanted me to come every day, but I didn't want to go every day. But they lived, when they came to Des Moines, they lived in an apartment that was only about half a block from Drake campus, because that's where the Christian church was. It was actually a Christian church at that time.

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That was the beginning of the university. It is not that now, but church was their center, and so they lived very near the campus, and I would go. So when you were in high school, you knew that you would be going on to college?

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Oh yes, definitely. How did you decide on Drake? Because it was there and it was, what do we call it, during the 30s, I can't think of the word, and I couldn't go to where I had planned to go.

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They had talked about my going to Juilliard, just ever since I started to play flute. That's what I had planned to do, but I didn't have the money. So I went to Drake, which had a fine music school at that time, but not flute. So I guess I was on the, I was the flute teacher actually, there even though I was just starting.

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So did you have individual students that you taught or did you teach a class? Individual students. I've never taught a class. I taught for years and it was always individual.

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And your major at Duke was what? Music? Always music. Yes.

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What did you envision that you would do with your music? I wanted to play flute. But after you graduated, did you want to go into a symphony? Yes.

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Okay. Mm-hmm. Where did you live when you were going to Drake? I lived at home, which was just west of town, just a mile west of Des Moines, actually,

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and right next to West Des Moines. Do you remember some of your other teachers other than your music teacher at Drake? Well, I had several music teachers, of course, since my major was music. Yes, I had a very fine education teacher.

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He told me one time I had answered one question, "The best in the class." And I had worked on that, so I made sure that I could put things together, because it was all mixed up with what we were just studying, but I had straightened it out in my mind. He said I did the best job.

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He was very nice. I had other nice teachers, too. When you were in college, what were your social activities? Not necessarily anything, because I was living at home, and I did not belong to a social

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sorority. I couldn't afford it at that time, but I had friends, and they all belonged to sororities and things, and wanted me to belong, too. Is Drake a private Christian school?

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- Yes. - Okay. - Still is. - Okay.

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Do you recall your graduation from Drake? - Yes, we had baccalaureate still at that time. I don't think schools have baccalaureates anymore. And it was held in that Christian church,

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which is right across the street from the campus. - Why do you feel that schools no longer have baccalaureate? I think because people think you shouldn't be religious anymore, unfortunately. I think

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most of us have a religion, it's our background, but people, schools like Michigan, for instance, just don't, don't. Don't think it's necessary. Right.

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When you finish Drake. I think if I finish Drake, I'll be a doctor. When you finished Drake, then what did you do? I was teaching in Des Moines, teaching flute in the schools.

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They had a nice arrangement in the schools, you'd go teach privately to the children in the schools and they'd pay you. It wasn't very much, they made it quite available to anyone who wanted to take the lessons and that's what I was doing.

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- Okay, would you go from school to school? - I did, because this is where the flutes were in many of the schools there, and enough of one instrument for the teacher to stay there,

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but there weren't that many flutes in the school, so I drove from school to school. - What kind of car did you have in those days? - I had a Chevy.

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(laughing) It was a second-hand Chevy, but I had a car. My father helped me select it, and he knows instruments and knows machines. What year did you graduate from college?

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'39. '39. And then did you keep teaching? I started teaching, actually, while I was still in Drake, and I continued then until

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the wasp. Tell me when you first became interested in airplanes. When I was a little small child. I have always wanted to fly. As a small child where did you see an airplane? Where did I see it? Well, in the air. There's an airport in Airport in Des Moines. I heard about a girl, the daughter of one of my parents' friends.

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My parents told me that she was flying. I don't know, maybe that's what got me the idea that I should fly too, because this was a girl. I don't think I ever met her. Do you remember what age that was that you first thought, "I would like to do that"? Or even before?

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GUEST: Oh, it would be elementary. I say, "I don't remember a time when I haven't wanted to fly, actually." INTERVIEWER: And when did you first start taking flying lessons, and how did that happen? GUEST: CPT, civilian pilot training, which was through the colleges.

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Drake would not allow girls in CPT, but another college in Des Moines would tick the one in the group of ten. Each group of ten could have one girl, and they allowed us, even though it was a school we had never attended.

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QF: Was this after you graduated from Drake? I can't remember whether it was about the same time. I can't remember when I started to fly, whether it was '39 or '40. Well, it likely was after I graduated.

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Do you remember the first time you went out to that airport and got up close to an airplane, how you felt? Oh, I was just interested always. And I guess I wanted to fly in the plane, had someone take me up for a ride.

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I think my first ride was by one of the boys who had been in high school who had learned to fly. He took me up in a little tiny Piper Cub. And that seemed to me I wasn't moving at all.

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It was such a slow little airplane. And then you started taking flying lessons. Do you recall your first instructor? It was when I was—CPG was started, and that was '83 or '49 or '40.

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Yes, my first—my instructor all during that time was named Bob Boyce, B-O-Y-C-E. Took me a while to remember one day his name because it had been so long ago. He was very nice and a very good teacher, because he had had a very good teacher. Teachers before that time had not been trained properly, but he came along as they were being

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trained the Army way, really. Do you recall your first solo? Yes, I do. How did you feel?

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I just went. I was very pleased to be able to fly by myself, but I do remember it very well. Where did you take your ground school courses? At Des Moines.

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Do you recall what they taught in ground school, what courses you took? You probably know as well as I do what they were. I didn't take, I didn't go through CPT. Well, the same thing that you teach any pilot or anyone who wanted to be a pilot.

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Like navigation and meteorology and all of those things. Yes. Would you go to school on the same day you flew or would you fly on weekends? I suppose we should ask on the same day that I taught because I think I must have been

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out of school by that time. And I was keeping pretty busy going out and flying and doing my teaching, too. I remember I did get rather tired. Well, eventually then, did you become an instructor or a teacher in ground school also? I taught ground school, yes.

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What course did you teach? They were CPT. I just taught all the CPT courses, the ground school courses. It made it very simple to take them when we went to Sweetwater. Right. What did your mom and dad think about you flying?

00:33:49.780 - 00:34:17.500

I think they were proud. They supported us in all that we wanted to do, anything of interest that we had. And they were very proud. And when I went to Sweetwater to learn to fly as a WASP, they were so proud. Do you recall any incidents that happened when you were flying the Piper Cub? Did you

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fly other type aircraft or just the Cub? was a cub and a cub that had more power than the J3. I can't remember what it was called. Powerful. Piper. Cub, Piper. And John couldn't remember either. Do you recall any of your students in ground school that were outstanding?

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I think they were all going to be pilots. I think they all went into the Air Force eventually. I don't think I heard from any of them after that time, so I don't know what happened. I'd like to know, but they were good students. Could you tell me where you were and how you heard about Pearl Harbor?

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I was at home. We were listening to the radio and that was it. We knew it was happening. How did that change America, do you feel? What happened to the people of America when Pearl Harbor happened and World War II began? I think they ceased to be coming, the kind that didn't want to go in, what they called

00:35:44.720 - 00:35:56.160

those people. What happened? What were they called who thought we should not go into the war? Dissenters or?

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Isolationists. Oh, isolationists, yes. I think there weren't any left after that, except maybe Lindbergh. Lindbergh was quite isolationist even during the war.

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No, is that not right? Oh, he changed. I'm glad he did. How do you feel that it changed the role of women, not just WASP, but other women?

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How did they change? Well, even before that time, the man who owns the flying service where I learned to fly I said, "Just wait, they'll be flying for you girls when we get into the war." And he was right.

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QF: As far as where you lived, did some of the mothers and other women begin to take factory jobs to build airplanes? ADLER: I don't remember about factory jobs. people I knew mostly were those who were flying as I was flying.

00:36:57.280 - 00:37:24.220

When did you first hear about a program to train women to fly military aircraft? I don't remember the instant, but Ethel Sheehy came to interview us, and I suppose it must have been just before that when she made reservations for us for that. What were your expectations, or why did you think they were going to form this group?

00:37:24.820 - 00:37:36.440

What was the group going to do? Lydia: Fly. Fly the Army way. Lydia: What was the purpose of women flying?

00:37:36.870 - 00:37:56.440

Lydia: The purpose was to relieve men for combat. When Ms. Sheehy came to your town, did she interview you? Yes. Were there other girls that she also interviewed?

00:37:56.660 - 00:38:11.420

Did you know any? I suppose so, because there were several of us who were flying. She interviewed just one at a time. It was a private interview in the hotel where she was staying.

00:38:11.720 - 00:38:19.500

Okay. Then what else did you have to do when you applied for that training? Did you have to take a physical? Yes.

00:38:19.840 - 00:38:40.020

And I thought I would have to go to Omaha to take that physical, and that was quite a little way from Des Moines. But no, they told me that there was someone in Des Moines who was making physicals generally. Was it an Army or a military person who made you your physical?

00:38:40.800 - 00:39:02.000

Was there anything unusual about that physical? No, he told me he was an OB, and I'm sure it was to make me feel better about it. And he had a helper, of course, who was a young man, so he didn't make me do all the undressing that I might have had to do otherwise.

00:39:03.420 - 00:39:16.460

It was very nice as an OB, of course, it would be. After you took your physical, did you have to take a test of any kind? I don't remember. Do you remember any?

00:39:16.880 - 00:39:32.040

Because we were required to have thirty-five hours flying time at least, so we were... Right. And by that time, how many hours do you recall that you had? I had about seventy-five when I went in.

00:39:33.060 - 00:39:53.340

Do you recall how you were notified to report for training? I suppose I received orders. I don't remember them specifically. When your mom and dad found out you were going to leave Iowa and go to Texas to fly, how

00:39:53.340 - 00:40:21.720

did they feel? parents did you say? I'm sure they were a little, a little, to have their daughter leave home and start flying because one of the young men in town had been in flying and crashed. banker's son had crashed.

00:40:22.920 - 00:40:26.600

Was he in the military? Yes. Was he killed? Yes.

00:40:28.200 - 00:40:41.680

But my parents always had, what is the word I want? Confidence? Confidence in anything I wanted to do. How did you get from Iowa out to Sweetwater?

00:40:42.000 - 00:41:06.060

I drove. I had a car and I took two more from Des Moines, two more girls with me. I drove down together and the last night we drove all the way so we could get down to graduation on the, this would be 43-4, their graduation was on Saturday the 7th of August

00:41:06.600 - 00:41:16.920

and we drove all night so we could be there for it. Tell me, tell me what that, what was that, graduation? We're going to have to switch. Oh, okay, she's got to switch film.

00:41:17.820 - 00:41:28.960

I don't tell her I don't want her to start. Oh no, you are doing so great. I don't think they think. Okay, how did you feel when you were at that graduation?

00:41:30.580 - 00:41:42.060

Oh, I was just proud of them and thrilled that I would be doing the same thing. We were staying in the Blue Bonnet Hotel, you know, that first night or two

00:41:42.680 - 00:41:51.460

before we moved out to the field. Were you able to take your car out to the field and leave it? Yes. Okay.

00:41:51.920 - 00:41:59.800

I used to. Okay. Tell me what happened when you reported out to Avenger Field. Do you remember going through the gate?

00:42:00.900 - 00:42:06.240

The thing... I don't think I do. Okay. Do you remember seeing all those airplanes?

00:42:06.800 - 00:42:12.640

Mm-hmm. That's wonderful. And what did you think? Oh, I'll be flying those.

00:42:14.020 - 00:42:17.340

Okay. That's wonderful. At the same time, I was thinking, "Oh, I'm going to be flying." you thought I'm sure.

00:42:18.460 - 00:42:37.700

Tell me, after you got out to Avenger, what happened next? Were you all gathered together and given rules? I can't remember, but we were assigned to our bays immediately, and I don't remember in what building we were when that was done.

00:42:37.960 - 00:42:59.340

Could you describe the barracks where you lived? Yes, I think so. It was a long building with eight bays in it, and our class took up two of those lengths. I think I was with six people in my bay, or five others beside myself.

00:43:00.020 - 00:43:13.660

I can't think of the sixth one, and I've asked the other girls who was the sixth one. No one seems to remember. I remember only five there. Do you suppose she washed out maybe and that's why you don't remember her?

00:43:13.660 - 00:43:37.460

I know that one did, yes. In that bay where you lived, describe the furniture in that bay. We had single beds, iron beds. We had wooden lockers for our clothes, and I kept mine very neat because we had so little

00:43:37.360 - 00:43:54.900

clothes there were just the things that we needed right there on Sweetwater so we could keep it very neat. With a light bulb hanging down the middle, you know, the middle of the ceiling. I suppose we had chairs to sit on. And what were the bathroom facilities like?

00:43:55.260 - 00:44:17.540

They were between two bays and it was quite adequate for the ten or twelve people in those Can you tell me about your Bay mates? Yes, Kay Murphy was one of them, and I'm sure you know Kay. She is a record keeper, you know.

00:44:22.140 - 00:44:40.820

Let's see, who else was in my Bay? Wanda Mustaine, who washed out later. We didn't want that to happen to her because she was sweet. She was my most dedicated friend until she washed out.

00:44:41.160 - 00:44:55.300

Oh, Dolores, Dolores, what's Dolores' last name? Muir. Muir, yes, she's Dolores Reid now. She's still flying.

00:44:55.610 - 00:45:19.200

Right. What kind of backgrounds did the other girls, were they all from Iowa? No. Kay was from Faribault, Minnesota. Dolores was from St. Louis. Who else was in my bay? So you were from different parts of the country.

00:45:19.620 - 00:45:42.700

Yes. As far as their backgrounds, were they all teachers? I can't remember what Kay was doing before. Dolores was a dancing teacher. Wanda, not Wanda, the one who washed out was, I don't remember what she did, she washed

00:45:42.800 - 00:45:52.820

out rather early. Do you know why she washed out, Marie? No, but I'd like to know why, because she was such a sweetheart and I didn't want that to happen to her.

00:45:53.400 - 00:46:13.180

How did it make you feel? Oh, I felt sad for her. She was such a nice girl. Tell me about the eating facilities. Where did you eat? In the dining hall, which was another building. And the food was excellent. It was very nice.

00:46:13.300 - 00:46:46.460

The only thing was the instructors also ate there. And we would see that they had steaks we did not have steak. Did you notice that, too? And one thing, I couldn't get milk for breakfast. I didn't drink coffee, so I drank milk for breakfast. And I couldn't get it. I'd have to take it from the dinner the night before and put it someplace to drink the next

00:46:46.560 - 00:47:01.920

morning at breakfast. But the cooks were so nice. They were just wonderful. Everyone was I said, "Sweetwater." How did you get from your barracks to that mess hall? Did you go individually?

00:47:02.380 - 00:47:15.800

How did you get over there? We marched in formation. And as you marched, what would you do? Oh, I'm sure we talked, but we had a wonderful time marching.

00:47:16.640 - 00:47:21.720

Did you sing? I suppose we did. There were songs to be sung. Okay.

00:47:23.500 - 00:47:38.100

Describe for me the ground school. That was in a different building, of course, as you know. We had wonderful teachers in the ground school, by the way. Do you remember some of the courses?

00:47:38.980 - 00:47:52.420

Well, the usual. Math, navigation, meteorology. I can't remember all the things we studied. Yes, I think so.

00:47:52.540 - 00:48:04.060

How about Morse Code? Oh, Morse Code, yes. Which of the ground school courses did you really enjoy? Oh, I just enjoyed all of them.

00:48:04.340 - 00:48:20.080

It was part of flying. Go through a typical day at Avenger. What would you do? The class was divided, of course, into flights, first flight and second flight, and we would

00:48:20.160 - 00:48:38.240

be on different schedules. One flight would fly in the morning while the other flight was in ground school in the morning, and then we'd switch in the afternoon. The other would fly while the other one was in ground school.

00:48:45.500 - 00:49:03.940

Lieutenant LaRue would lead us in exercises, and he was great. He didn't let us get by with anything. He made us do it. And so we accomplished a lot with his training.

00:49:05.080 - 00:49:21.340

I was going to ask you about the instructors. Were they civilians or were they Army Air Force personnel? Civilians. All our flight instructors were civilians, and the ground school were civilians,

00:49:21.760 - 00:49:48.640

But there were Czech pilots that were in the Army. As far as your training, how did it compare with the training the male cadets were getting? It was the same as the male cadets. The only thing we did not do was to have quite so much formation flying, but we had some

00:49:48.640 - 00:50:03.440

of that anyway. Otherwise, it was the same as what the male pilots were getting. Describe for me how you felt the first time that you went to the flight line and went up in a primary trainer.

00:50:03.620 - 00:50:12.200

What kind was it? I was just thrilled. I had a wonderful instructor. We can't find him.

00:50:12.460 - 00:50:23.300

We've lost him. What kind of airplane did you first fly? PT-19? PT-19, yes.

00:50:24.280 - 00:50:39.540

Did you fly a 17? I flew both. When you went out to fly in the PT-19, you're tall. Did you have to have cushions?

00:50:40.160 - 00:51:10.700

I didn't have to sit on it, but I think we did sit on our parachute. Did you describe what the auxiliary fields were and what happened on those fields? They were just fields, farm fields, but with runways, of course. But I did have a very interesting experience in primary because I was in an open cockpit

00:51:10.700 - 00:51:29.560

plane, which the PT-19 was, as well as the 17. I was thrown out of the plane. My safety belt had come unfastened, and I had no need. And when I popped the stick for a spin recovery, out I went.

00:51:31.160 - 00:51:56.120

It was noisy because all these things came off, you know, where you're listening to your instructor. those all popped off and it was a great big pop, but there it was, out in the air. And so, we had learned in ground school what to do if we needed to parachute jump.

00:51:56.920 - 00:52:16.760

So I knew just what to do. Do you remember how high you were, what your altitude was? We started at 6,400, which is 4,000 feet above the ground at Sweetwater. But I had also gone down a little bit as I was popping this tick, so I must have been

00:52:16.820 - 00:52:26.820

at least 3,000 feet above the ground. Okay. And what is this particular thing? This is the—what do you call it?

00:52:28.440 - 00:52:40.180

Ripcord? Ripcord. And it's in your harness, parachute harness right here. It's right where you can grab hold of it and pull it out.

00:52:42.660 - 00:52:52.160

Were you with an instructor? Yes, fortunately. So he took the plane down. How many hours, do you know how many hours you had?

00:52:52.620 - 00:53:04.300

How far along were you in primary when that happened? I hadn't soloed yet. It was two days, I think, before I saw one. How did you get back?

00:53:04.900 - 00:53:19.460

How far were you from the field? I don't know how far it was, but they came to get me. I landed in a cotton field, which was cultivated, of course, so it was soft landing, as soft as ground could be.

00:53:21.920 - 00:53:47.840

The one thing I did remember to turn downwind so that when you landed you would land this way. And I remembered to pull the shrouds so that I could face the direction I wanted to. It was a most wonderful feeling to come down from the sky just floating down that white

00:53:48.040 - 00:54:04.440

silk against the blue Texas sky. It was beautiful, but suddenly the ground came up and hit me. I fell this way, of course. Did you gather your parachute up?

00:54:04.920 - 00:54:17.080

Yes, this is why you land this way actually, so that you can gather it up before the wind blows it away. Then how long did you have to wait? What did you think?

00:54:17.080 - 00:54:32.460

Well, I started walking right away. I forgot to notice, where's the road from here? So I started walking down the rows. This was a cotton field, but one of the planes flying around up there said, "Turn right."

00:54:32.460 - 00:54:48.200

I don't know who said that to me, but one of the instructors. So I turned right and went across the rows of cotton, and they came for me. Did you have your parachute bundled up, carrying you? Yes, in my arms.

00:54:49.610 - 00:55:09.160

They came for me in a truck. Who was in the truck? My next instructor, who was Mr. Who was my Mr. Oh, that's awful not to remember his name, because I know it so well.

00:55:09.700 - 00:55:24.980

You may think of it later. That's okay. It's very important if he's still living today because he considered me special. But he took me back to the auxiliary field where we were flying, Auxiliary 3, I think.

00:55:26.560 - 00:55:47.740

Then did you have to go before a board? No, but my instructor came for me at Auxiliary 3. But when you got back to Avenger Field, were you called before a board? Mr. Riley called me toóit was not a board, it was just Mr. Riley who was in charge of

00:55:47.780 - 00:56:00.580

flying, if you remember Mr. Riley. And he just asked for an explanation? Yes, I think so. I was sure I was going to be washed out, but I was not.

00:56:01.320 - 00:56:29.500

They did take my pressure, my blood pressure, but the doctors did when I got back to the field and I had to change my clothes because I was all full of dirt. It was just before lunch and it made me late for lunch, but they excused me. And because you parachuted, what club are you now a member of?

00:56:29.740 - 00:56:56.060

I'm a member of the Caterpillar Club and this is the symbol for the Caterpillar Club. The symbol represents a silkworm, and at one time the parishes were made of silk. So this is the symbol for it. Do you know any other women who belonged to that club?

00:56:56.600 - 00:57:23.100

Yes, Lorraine Zellner Rogers is another member, but I don't know another one. Lorraine was in '44, too, and I knew her at the time. Vander Hill: Were you a member before she was a member? Lowry: I don't remember. I don't remember the date of her fall. She had a plane that

00:57:23.100 - 00:57:40.100

had been tampered, BT-13 had been tampered the things. What do you call those things? Trim tabs. What is it?

00:57:40.760 - 00:57:50.960

Trim tabs? Trim tabs, yes. They weren't adjustable from the cockpit. They were adjustable only on the ground.

00:57:51.100 - 00:58:04.620

And, someone evidently, she feels, and I think they have good reason to think so, had been tampered with. How long was your training going to be? Six and a half months.

00:58:05.160 - 00:58:26.900

Our training was longer. We were the first class to go through with flight, with instrument flying. So that extended our course longer than they had been, and I think you went also at that longer time.

00:58:31.040 - 00:58:53.080

This gave us the training that we needed to do what we went to Las Vegas. I was assigned to Las Vegas, in fact ten of us were from my class, and our first job was to teach instrument flying to the men who had gone through before. The training was full panel.

00:58:54.550 - 00:59:15.720

Let me ask you, in training, how long did your primary training last? It was about two months. I don't remember just the dates, but about two months in each one, but it was a little longer than just six months. When you had time off as a trainee, how would you spend that time?

00:59:17.180 - 00:59:38.060

I went to church. I think I went to the Presbyterian Church in Tone, and I would play my flute for church sometimes. And between primary and secondary, I think we drove down to San Angelo and enjoyed the

00:59:37.940 - 00:59:54.540

countryside as we drove down. A beautiful country. In your car? In Texas, in my car, yes. Two of us, two beside myself, went down. When you left primary, finished primary, then what did you fly?

00:59:55.300 - 01:00:11.080

BT-13, is that right? And what was the purpose of the BT-13? purpose was to fly a more powerful airplane, of course, but it still did not have retractable gear.

01:00:11.970 - 01:00:30.320

And that's where you learned instruments? Yes, the first part was just flying the plane, but the second half, the second month of the two months was instrument flying. Could you describe for us what a link trainer is?

01:00:31.220 - 01:00:56.860

Lick trainer, oh dear, that was not our favorite flying. It was a machine that would turn. It was fastened to the ground, of course, in a building. You were supposed to fly it the way you would fly an airplane and do the various activities

01:00:56.960 - 01:01:17.440

on it. wasn't it, mainly for that? And the little boys who were teaching, supposedly teaching us to fly those things, it's just like flying an airplane, but they didn't fly airplanes, they had no idea.

01:01:19.680 - 01:01:42.540

They were such awful things, you had to hold them in position, you couldn't let go of things the way it controls, the way you would in a real airplane. A real airplane will take care of itself, but these things, you had to hold them in position. QF: So as you progressed through instrument school, did anything unusual happen?

01:01:43.640 - 01:02:12.300

AQ: I had a wonderful instructor for, I had a different instructor for instruments from basic. And he was a wonderful instructor. His name was Mr. Martin. What was his first name? He's no longer living, I understand. He was just a very wonderful thing. He gave us all sorts of confidence in everything that we were doing.

01:02:12.960 - 01:02:23.560

Marie, what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make? For what? For training. When you left home and went into training, what was the biggest adjustment?

01:02:23.960 - 01:02:33.280

Oh, I don't remember making any adjustment. I was just having a wonderful time. I enjoyed it all so very much. Something I had so wanted to do.

01:02:34.560 - 01:02:56.940

Well, I wondered, since you just have one sister, if that was an adjustment to live in a room with five other girls and share a bathroom? No, because everyone was so nice and we had fun together. Okay. As you finished basic training, then what did you do?

01:02:57.760 - 01:03:16.300

Well, we made a trip to the caves out west. What are they? Carlsbad? Three of us drove in my car to Carl's Bed, went through the cage. That was it.

01:03:16.760 - 01:03:30.100

I know we were very low on gas. I think the instructors gave us gas. This was at the time of rationing, of course. And I think they must all have given us gas, otherwise we couldn't have got to Carl's Bed.

01:03:31.680 - 01:03:55.300

And we got awfully low on gas. It was so far between stations, you know, out there in the south and southwest. But we made it to the first station, but we were so low on gas my car would not start. They had to pour gasoline into the engine someplace, wherever you pour gasoline, to

01:03:55.380 - 01:04:08.580

get it started again. But we got there, got back to Sweetwater again afterward. And once you finished basic, then you went into what kind of training? What kind of airplane?

01:04:09.040 - 01:04:29.480

Advanced training in the AT-6. It was a plane then that was more powerful than any of the others, of course. It had retractable landing gear for the first time. Of all the planes you flew at Sweetwater, what was your favorite?

01:04:29.720 - 01:04:48.840

AT-6. it is still my favorite. And we flew a lot of 86 when we were assigned at Las Vegas. As part of your advanced training, you had cross-country flights. Describe for me one of those trips that you took.

01:04:49.580 - 01:05:04.860

Well, our instructors would go with us first. And I remember my primary instructor showed What do you call it? What do you call it? Hedgehop.

01:05:05.280 - 01:05:18.160

Hedgehop, yes. And so then when we went by ourselves, just after the instrument instructor had gone with us, we hedgehopped, of course. We had been shown how.

01:05:19.120 - 01:05:36.560

And that was primary, and that was east. I've forgotten the name of the town. I look for it on the lab sometimes. Then in Basic, we went to Waco, I think.

01:05:37.740 - 01:05:58.420

That seems to me should be Waco, because that's what we call the plains in Milwaukee. And the wind was, I remember, was different from what we had been taught that wind would be. So we had to adjust our direction.

01:06:00.240 - 01:06:18.120

Kelly: And your long cross-country, where did you go? Lowry: Memphis. We landed at Tyler first, and the wind was changing direction, they said, so they changed the T after we had landed.

01:06:18.640 - 01:06:32.700

But it had already changed before we landed. Is that a difficult landing? No, I don't remember that it was difficult, I just adjusted to it. When you go on these cross-countries, would you go by yourself?

01:06:33.560 - 01:07:05.720

I went by myself, and then I asked our, what was his name, the one who was in charge of our instrument flying, or in charge of our advanced flying, I asked him to go with me because I had decided he needed some company. And we did have some bad weather, so I didn't mind his being with me. We took off when the ceiling was very low. They thought it was

01:07:05.760 - 01:07:34.520

high enough, but he informed them by radio after we took off that the ceiling was very low. We went to Memphis and we couldn't get an answer from the tower at Emphis. He kept talking too with his male voice, never did get an answer from him. So he finally tucked us in between planes they were landing, so many of them. I think they were B-17s, Johnny.

01:07:35.620 - 01:07:47.080

Do you recall where you spent the night? No, I don't remember that at all. We may not have spent the night. We may have gone back. I just don't remember.

01:07:49.280 - 01:08:11.640

When you finished your advanced training, how many of you were still left in your bay? Well, we had changed bays in the meantime so much smaller, we were all lined up then in one line of bays instead of the two lines.

01:08:13.200 - 01:08:40.300

So we had a different group. But I think we must have had four or five. Ann Naga was one of those. Kay Murphy was one. Jane. You were there in the wintertime. Did that pose any problems? Yes it did because Kay didn't want to have the heat going in our little, you know, we

01:08:40.300 - 01:09:01.480

had just a little pot-bellied thing in each bay. She didn't want it to go at night and she never said why it gets so cold at night. That was the main thing I remember about it. But it was fun because we got to put on these nice warm winter flying clothes.

01:09:02.570 - 01:09:20.220

We enjoyed that. You were in training at Christmas time. Do you recall what you did at Christmas? Yes, my second primary instructor invited me to his home, and his wife lived in town.

01:09:20.800 - 01:09:37.240

And they invited someone else over that they do. I don't remember who that was, but some man they invited. And it was so nice to have Christmas spent at their private home. I think they weren't supposed to do that.

01:09:39.000 - 01:09:52.040

Maybe we'd better leave that out. For that seven months, or six and a half months that you were at Avenger, what happened to your music? Were you able to continue?

01:09:53.040 - 01:10:09.160

Did you bring your French horn with you? Yes, Iíd go practice in the washroom. Iíd go practice and I would play for some of the programs on the bass, and Iíd play for church as I mentioned, and I practiced every day.

01:10:09.920 - 01:10:30.500

It wasómusic was something that was very welcome after the machinery of the day. As much as I enjoyed the machinery, I needed the music afterward. It sounds silly. Kelly: Now, while you were at Sweetwater, other girls had already graduated.

01:10:30.620 - 01:10:48.280

Were you aware of some of the assignments that those girls were carrying out? Lowry: I don't think I remember. I suppose we all talked about where we were going. I donít remember today where they all were.

01:10:49.350 - 01:11:11.340

When a class would graduate, when you were an underclassman, when there would be a graduation, what part would your class play in that graduation? The march in it on the field. And seeing the movies of these things on TV, the marching was very good in these classes.

01:11:11.760 - 01:11:24.720

Iím very proud of our marching. I hope we look the same way. I don't think I asked you, what were your uniforms like before you got the war uniform? Before we got these, right?

01:11:26.040 - 01:11:44.180

Just neat pants and white shirts. As for flying, of course, we wore what we called the zoot suits. And what is a zoot suit? It was just a flying coverall, which was left over from the men who had occupied the field

01:11:44.300 - 01:11:57.140

before we had. And so they were all very, very much too large. It was fun. We all looked sloppy, but we pulled them up tight around the waist.

01:11:58.210 - 01:12:17.180

And as far as headgear, what did you wear? We did not wear anything until Major Urban, who headed the field, decided that our hair was getting in the way. So he made us put on some sort of thing to tie around our heads.

01:12:17.280 - 01:12:24.620

What did we call those? Irvin's turbans. Yes, right. You had to wear them too, didn't you?

01:12:26.340 - 01:12:40.260

We hated them. I do not look good in that sort of thing at all, but we had to wear them. But then in the open cockpits, what would you wear? I didn't have to wear anything then.

01:12:41.240 - 01:12:55.860

Oh, we had helmets, didn't we? With goggles. That's right, we did wear something. And how did you communicate to your instructor in those open cockpits?

01:12:56.600 - 01:13:14.260

By intercom. We could have either intercom or radio, and we'd switch. Sometimes people would forget to switch off the radio, and they would talk privately. When you would go on a cross-country, how would you navigate?

01:13:14.600 - 01:13:27.100

What would you use? Would you use the Morse code in some way on those trips? No, I think we just radioed. I don't remember ever having to use the Morse code.

01:13:27.100 - 01:13:38.760

Do you remember the radio ranges, the radar or radio ranges with the DIT-DAWs and DAW-DITs? Yes. And to discover where you were? Yes.

01:13:39.380 - 01:13:52.680

If you were right on the beam, you didn't hear either one. It was just a steady, steady beam. But if you got off, then you would hear either the A or the N. Uh-huh. Great.

01:13:54.400 - 01:14:11.200

When it was time for graduation, describe your new uniforms. Tell us about your uniform. They were presented to us by Neiman Marcus in Dallas, who actually were in charge of getting them.

01:14:12.740 - 01:14:32.100

They tried them on us and fitted them to us so beautifully. you tell us what the patch on the sleeve is for? Atencio>> It's at the Eighth Air Force. I guess I don't know why it is there. Why is it there? Did I borrow it from you?

01:14:32.400 - 01:14:46.560

Kelly>> No. No, it's the Air Force patch. Atencio>> Oh, yes, of course. It's not Eighth Air Force. It's just Air Force. Right. Where's my bird? Kelly>> And tell us about your wings. When did you get these wings?

01:14:46.560 - 01:15:17.940

at graduation. Do you recall who presented them to you? No, I can't think who was there except that I know that Jacqueline Cochran was not at our graduation, and I see by our book that she attended many of the graduations. But she was not at yours? No, she was not. She had been on the field while we were there, but not during graduation.

01:15:21.080 - 01:15:36.140

John is looking up something for me. Tell us about the two medals, the two ribbons that are on your uniform. I forgot which one is which. One is the American thing and the other is Victory.

01:15:37.260 - 01:15:47.120

I don't remember which one is which. John can tell you which one is. graduation, had they given you a choice of assignments? Yes.

01:15:47.800 - 01:16:02.800

And what did you ask for? Southwest United States, and that's what I got at Las Vegas. Do you remember your graduation day and how you felt? Was that the first time you wore this Santiago blue uniform?

01:16:03.800 - 01:16:26.660

Yes, I think so. They had to take our uniforms back to Dallas to re-sew them after the fitting. We wore them as we marched to graduation. I'm not sure that we wore them before graduation, but I know my shoes were too small and I wore

01:16:28.220 - 01:16:42.480

the second pair of shoes of one of the other girls. So I never did have the right shoes to go with the uniform. Did anyone come for your graduation? Yes, my father and mother came for it.

01:16:42.750 - 01:17:03.460

They came down a few days before, actually, and watched us on our last day of flying. And I wished they could be up in the towers to hear the tower operator, Roberta, you know, so they could hear what she was telling us to do. They sat there at the base of the tower anyway and watched us.

01:17:04.000 - 01:17:24.960

And then they, it must have been a day or two before the actual graduation, and they went to, what is it, south of Austin, a big city. QF: San Antonio? AQ: San Antonio, yes, and then came back in time for graduation.

01:17:25.840 - 01:17:43.980

My daddy took pictures. Did Mother pin these on me, I wonder? I donít remember who pinned on mine, but we got these at graduation. And then when you got your orders, what did your orders say?

01:17:44.180 - 01:17:53.600

When did you have to report? Did you have some time off? Yes, we had two weeks off before we had to report. What did you do?

01:17:53.960 - 01:18:13.480

I had just always thought we'd go home and drive my car. My parents evidently had flown down. If you fly in those days, maybe it was train, I don't remember. But we started home and we got as far as the next town east of Ann Arbor.

01:18:15.020 - 01:18:25.360

Sweetwater, Abilene? Abilene. And I said, "Well, why don't we make a trip west?" Because I was being assigned to Las Vegas.

01:18:26.100 - 01:18:40.660

Let's just take a trip west and make a trip around. And that's what we did. We turned around and went through Sweetwater again. I think we must have stayed all night in Sweetwater again at Blue Bonnet Hotel, I'm sure.

01:18:41.540 - 01:18:54.820

And then we went west to California. How did you get the gasoline? Get the gasoline, since it was rationed. Well, we must have been given it.

01:18:55.040 - 01:19:21.780

I think we were given gasoline to go to all assignments. On that trip, does any one thing stand out in your mind? the trip between -- yes, we stayed in -- QF: Did you stay in Vegas on the trip itself? Did you go to Las Vegas on that trip?

01:19:21.780 - 01:19:38.560

AQ: That was our last stop, yes. What is on the southwest corner of -- what is it? QF: San Diego. AQ: Southwest of Texas. >> El Paso? >> Next to Mexico.

01:19:38.790 - 01:19:57.620

>> El Paso? >> El Paso. We didn't have any reservations, so we were in kind of a crummy hotel, but it didn't matter. And I remember I slept and slept for hours. I slept from 4 o'clock in the afternoon when I thought I was taking a nap

01:19:58.340 - 01:20:13.460

until 6.30 the next morning. I suppose you get kind of tired sometimes. And then we went on west to Capistrano. Just the three of you?

01:20:14.160 - 01:20:24.440

Yes, just the three of us. And then where did you end up? Did you go back to take them back to Iowa? No, they must have flown home.

01:20:25.740 - 01:20:45.060

Okay, so you just came back to Las Vegas? Oh no, I sent him home with my car because I didnít think I would need it in Las Vegas. They drove my car home and then after I got there and was active, I realized I had to get into town once in a while.

01:20:46.820 - 01:21:09.400

So one of the men, pilots from Las Vegas, lived in Des Moines and he was going home and I asked him to drive my car back. So I have a car most of the time in Las Vegas. Do you recall at Las Vegas, to whom did you report? Major...

01:21:11.960 - 01:21:29.580

Was he the commanding officer? Yes, we did. That was Colonel Henry. He was the officer commander of the base. We reported to him. How many from your class were assigned to Vegas? Ten. Ten of us. All of us together.

01:21:30.480 - 01:21:57.960

And what did he tell you your assignment would be? He told us we would be teaching instrument flying to the men who had gone through flight training without the full panel. And what kind of airplane would you be flying to teach them? We flew AT-6s all the time we were there until at the very end, for some reason, they took

01:21:58.040 - 01:22:14.220

the AT-6s away and gave us BT-13s to fly. But that was just the last two or three weeks, I think. Did you have to take additional training or have to take a test in order to start teaching the men to fly instruments?

01:22:14.620 - 01:22:39.920

No, because we had all this instrument flying. But we did take ground school for other instruments, B-17 for instance, we took ground school for that and learned to fly it. And later, Janice showing me a picture of the P-39, later I flew that and I took ground

01:22:40.080 - 01:22:53.300

school for that because it's only a single place plane and nobody can take you up. You pick it up yourself so you learn all about it before you start flying it. We're about to roll out here. Okay.

01:22:53.700 - 01:23:04.420

I've got to change film again. You began instructing in the 86 of these officers. They were officers that were in the service? Yes, they were.

01:23:04.600 - 01:23:13.620

Right. They had all gone through flight training, of course. Okay. And then at Vegas there were other aircraft at that base.

01:23:13.880 - 01:23:25.940

Yes. Were you able to fly them? able to fly some of those other aircraft? Lowry: Yes, we could fly any one that we wanted. We checked out in the B-17, the B-26, AT-11,

01:23:28.280 - 01:23:48.200

later the P-63. So we would take ground school for all these things. And would you also have to take additional training in that aircraft before you could fly it? Yes, they would.

01:23:49.740 - 01:24:10.440

Who would teach you? The older men who were flying those things. They were all quite permanent on the field, so they knew all about these things. Let me ask you, when you checked out in the B-17, then what did you fly it for?

01:24:11.560 - 01:24:32.920

Were you on a ferry mission? No, I just flew right seat on the B-17. We would fly it to San Berdue for whatever they do in San Berdue. Would you deliver cargo or take some Air Force people, liaison-type flying?

01:24:33.740 - 01:25:00.600

Sometimes, but most of it was to get the plane over to San Rodeo for work on the plane itself. What was the first airplane you flew, other than the AT-6 at Vegas? I suspect the AT-11. We all flew in the AT-11 to California, I mean to Oklahoma City, to pick up planes to

01:25:00.740 - 01:25:12.920

ferry. And that was my one ferry trip, to fly it from Oklahoma City—oh, what was it? Ponca City. Oklahoma, anyway, to Phoenix.

01:25:16.680 - 01:25:35.260

Thunderbird 2, I think, was where we delivered them. That was my one thing. But six of us were flying, and two AT-6s to do that. And each one took a PT-17 back to Phoenix.

01:25:35.820 - 01:26:06.780

Kelly: And then you also checked out on some other bomber-type airplanes. Yes, I don't remember what was next. Very likely the B-17 was the next one. The B-26 came along sometime or other. I don't remember. Do you recall what you flew the B-26 for? Was it just to check out in it or did you

01:26:07.560 - 01:26:12.700

fly it to a different field? No, just right there. Okay. Right at Las Vegas.

01:26:13.100 - 01:26:22.160

Okay. Do you remember being instructed on fighter-type aircraft? Yes. How did they check you out in that sense?

01:26:22.260 - 01:26:36.140

There's only one seat. Well, just to learn what to do with it, how to fly it. There was no problem because they went through everything, all the procedures of flying the plane.

01:26:38.640 - 01:27:00.620

Of all those airplanes that you learned to fly, what was your favorite? I liked the P-39 because the men thought I was very brave to fly a P-39. They didn't like it. They were afraid of it.

01:27:00.980 - 01:27:18.700

It does have heavy wing loading and it's different. And it doesn't fly upside down very well because it didn't have the right kind of carburetor, but I would turn it over anyway. It was hard to cut out, but it didn't matter because it would come right back in as I got

01:27:18.800 - 01:27:42.480

right side up again. I was doing engineering flights on the P-39. These were planes that were brought back from Russia or someplace where they had been through the war and brought back for the men to use on our field for their pretending to fly,

01:27:42.600 - 01:28:25.880

know into it. This was a gunnery training school, so there were gunners, young men learning to be gunners, and so there had to be pretend flights attacking them, because they had only cameras so it was not dangerous to do that but it was fun to pretend that you were attacking the B-17. They also had them on the ground up at the auxiliary

01:28:26.000 - 01:28:50.480

field. What was the auxiliary field called? Northern Las Vegas. They had them on the ground with ball turrets and cameras in the Balturas, and as they were on the ground shooting us, we'd do this, you know, figure eights all around.

01:28:50.980 - 01:29:19.680

And the desert was so rough, I couldn't always get down to where they were, so I'd be going over this way, but this was it, I loved to do that. That was one of the things I did to pretend to be attacking gunners. And Marie, all the time you were doing that, you were still teaching instruments also.

01:29:20.000 - 01:29:42.160

No, I stopped teaching instruments as soon as I started these other jobs. Now, some of the girls, two of the girls, went to Bryan, which is the school for teaching instrument instructors. And so I did not teach instruments anymore. I got to do these other instruments, interesting things.

01:29:42.700 - 01:30:01.980

When you were at Vegas, where did you live? In the BOQs, by Bachelor Officers Quarters. We lived in the same BOQ as nurses. And what were your social activities like at Vegas? Oh, I don't know. John was one of them.

01:30:02.920 - 01:30:11.880

How did you meet John? In B-17 ground school. He came there for-- Officer's Club. What is it?

01:30:12.200 - 01:30:31.160

Officer's Club. Oh, the Officer's Club. Oh, that's right. I had my music thing, my thing, you know, where I had my records there. And so I'd take the records over to the officers' club to play on their dice machines sometimes.

01:30:31.720 - 01:30:50.640

And John was over there one night writing home, this is his first night there. And we struck up a conversation. I think John struck it up with me. And I think I asked him if he'd like to go listen to the music, which the machine was

01:30:50.660 - 01:31:03.020

in the library. So that's where we went. And then he wanted to fly in an AT-6. He did not fly AT-6s, and I did.

01:31:03.500 - 01:31:31.360

And he thought it would be nice to fly in an AT-6, so I took him up on an AT-6. We took the one in which we could do aerobatics, because we weren't supposed to do that in the others. So we did that, but even before that we went to the—what was that place called?

01:31:33.080 - 01:31:50.700

Basic Magnesium. What is it? Basic Magnesium. Yes, Basic Magnesium Plant, which was near Las Vegas. It was an interesting place. It

01:31:50.700 - 01:32:11.880

He took us through it anyway. What kind of plant was that? One thing they did, they stored silver bars. I don't remember what else they did, but they stored the silver bars there.

01:32:14.820 - 01:32:33.180

We saw these many, many silver bars through which the electricity would be stored, I guess, or passed anyway. And that was before our flight, wasn't it? Then we had our flight.

01:32:33.180 - 01:32:50.780

It was a Sunday morning the next morning, and we had our flight on the HG-6. And John said he decided to marry me because I could put on lipstick and talk to the tower and fly the airplane all at once. That's great.

01:32:51.800 - 01:33:02.560

What attracted you to John? What qualities did he have? John, you look the other way. What qualities did he have that made you fall in love with him?

01:33:02.580 - 01:33:18.800

He was energetic and he was enthusiastic. Not many people on the field were that enthusiastic about what they were doing. John was. That's the only one I knew of who was.

01:33:19.100 - 01:33:30.480

Did John love music? Yes. Well, at least he listened with me, and he's been going to concerts with me ever since. I was going to ask you about the records that you played.

01:33:30.620 - 01:33:44.980

What kind of music was on those records? It was classical. The first one, the one we were playing that first night was La Mer by Debussy, and it's been a favorite ever since.

01:33:45.490 - 01:34:02.960

And once you met John, did you date any other? Well, John went overseas after that, and I did date others while he was gone. But did you know before John went overseas, were you in love with him? Well, we just didn't go that far.

01:34:05.700 - 01:34:21.140

Yes, he wrote to me all the time, sent me a picture. Well, the picture is in his book, and I was so thrilled to see that picture for the first time. He's looking out the window of his B-17 in that picture.

01:34:22.120 - 01:34:38.680

What did, how did it make you feel when John left? I think I felt quite lost. When did you first hear that the Wasps were going to be disbanded and how did that make you feel?

01:34:39.040 - 01:34:57.660

I don't remember just when, but I was disappointed, but I realized that we had had a wonderful opportunity. And once you knew that the Wasps were being disbanded, what were your plans then? What did you think you would do?

01:34:59.020 - 01:35:21.060

back home and check out music. When the WASPs were disbanded, did the officers at Las Vegas do anything special as you were disbanded to go home? I don't remember that they did. In the mess hall, they were nice, and I think they expressed

01:35:21.180 - 01:35:45.460

their whatever you express. But that's all I remember. >> Okay. How did you get then? You had your car there? >> Yes. >> So, did you drive home by yourself? >> No. I took two of the girls with me. Betty Wall. What's Betty? Strophes.

01:35:45.460 - 01:36:12.980

>> Strophes. >> No. Was one of them because she lived in in Minnesota, and I was going to drop her off where she could get a train to Minneapolis. And one of the B-17 girls was with me. Why did we drop her off? I think in Denver. But the three of us started out together, and then we discovered—I thought Betty could

01:36:12.880 - 01:36:37.280

get a train from Des Moines to Minneapolis, but when we got to Omaha, we found the only train was from Des Moines. That was it, from Des Moines. So she could not take one from Omaha, so we drove very, very fast in this thirty-five

01:36:37.280 - 01:37:05.760

mile an hour thing, you know, in these days, to get her to the train in Des Moines in time. We made it. My foot was on the floor. But there wasn't anybody else on the road, you know, in those times. No gasoline. I think the police didn't even have gasoline. We didn't see one. But we got to Des Moines. That's where I was going.

01:37:07.200 - 01:37:44.260

Once the WASPs were disbanded, what do you think you accomplished as a WASP? Of course, I had learned to fly the very best way, and we had released men for combat, and we knew we were not to go out of the United States, but the men were released to go out of the United States. In fact, John had gone to England and flown 32 missions over Germany

01:37:45.320 - 01:38:11.000

while I was still in Las Vegas. What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? I thought she was a wonderful leader. I always respected her very highly. It was she who I liked her very much.

01:38:12.120 - 01:38:26.940

When you got back to Iowa, then what did you do next? Oh, my flute job, flute teaching job, was waiting for me, but I couldn't seem to settle down to teaching. I'm not sure what.

01:38:28.520 - 01:38:41.480

I was at home with my parents. It was nice to be at home. And then what was the next thing you did? Did John come home?

01:38:41.740 - 01:38:57.140

John came home. And he suggested that we be married in the fall. And then while he was at San Angelo, he said, "Why do we wait for the fall?" In the meantime, had you met his parents?

01:38:57.840 - 01:39:23.800

No, not until the time of the wedding. He came to see us there when he came from San Angelo, no it was before he went to San Angelo, at that time he had free between whatever he was doing and San Angelo. He came to see us and was there for a few days.

01:39:24.020 - 01:39:37.060

So he got to San Diego. And then he went on to San Angelo, and then he wrote you or called you? How did he propose to you? Well, he was visiting after he came back from overseas.

01:39:38.580 - 01:39:51.340

We went out to the water park. Don't listen, John. In my car, of course. And he proposed to me.

01:39:52.140 - 01:40:01.880

So then we--. And then did he ask your parents? Yes, I think you did, didn't you? I don't remember that little detail.

01:40:03.340 - 01:40:16.960

They liked him very much. Okay. And then he went back to San Angelo. Yes, well, he went to Santa Ana first, and then he was assigned to San Angelo. What was his job at San Angelo?

01:40:17.140 - 01:40:48.640

He was playing AT-11s, the bombardier students. And then what happened next? Well, he said, "Why do we wait until fall?" So we set a date in July instead of fall. And he came to Des Moines then at the date that we had decided to be married.

01:40:50.350 - 01:41:17.800

He got there just the day before the wedding. QF: Describe for me your wedding. It was a very simple wedding. Because it was wartime, I couldn't get a nice gown, a wedding gown. I got a very pretty dress, which was not even white, but it was pretty. And we

01:41:17.820 - 01:41:44.980

were married at church, in my home church, by the minister who was there. My father was of the Church Board at the time, and I remember he and the minister were talking together with us. We were married in church.

01:41:46.700 - 01:41:58.300

Did John wear his uniform? He wore his uniform. Of course, he was not out of uniform yet. My father wanted me to be married in my uniform, but since I was not wearing it officially

01:41:58.300 - 01:42:30.920

anymore. I didn't want to be married in the uniform, so I had a pretty dress. And I have wished since then that we had, I had worn my uniform as my father wanted me to do. He was so proud of that uniform. My matron of honor was John's sister. I wanted my sister, But I also wanted her husband, my brother-in-law, to be John's best man because his brothers

01:42:31.060 - 01:42:43.360

were still in the service. They couldn't be there. So I had John's sister as my matron of honor. It was very simple.

01:42:43.860 - 01:43:04.440

My little niece, who was three years old, was the flower girl. Her mother didn't think she could do it. I knew she could. She was a very responsible little three-year-old and so cute. And all she held was a single rose. That was the flower. Oh, did she have—no, she did not have the

01:43:04.780 - 01:43:43.860

ring because when my brother-in-law took the ring off his finger to give to whomever they give to her. She started to take a ring off her little finger, but she didn't have a ring. All she had was the flower. And that night when we were all having dinner together at my family home, that night when we were all after the reception, which was at my family

01:43:44.740 - 01:44:18.280

the stem on the rose broke. She said, "It broke." She said, "Dear one, today we were with her just this week." She was in her fifties. Mary, I'm going to go way back and ask you something I forgot to ask you. When I asked you to describe a Christmas. Did you attend any kind of religious celebration at Christmas

01:44:18.380 - 01:44:45.500

time when you were growing up? Oh, I'm sure we did because we went to church every Sunday and my parents were so active at the church and we just never considered anything but going to church. I don't remember church service. Do you recall ever participating in a play at church or anything like that?

01:44:45.680 - 01:45:07.580

No, I was always playing my flute for everything. Right, okay. Okay, now-- Oh, one, excuse me, one thing that happened at Christmas at Sweetwater was that we had a six-inch snow. Do you remember that snow? Which was very unusual and very thick, very And it was hard to drive in it actually.

01:45:08.180 - 01:45:27.380

And I had to go to town to get some music to play in the Christmas program that night. And Mrs. Deaton did not want me to go, not in that snow. And I insisted that we were used to snow in Iowa. And I had to have that music.

01:45:27.880 - 01:45:37.660

And she finally let me go. I felt sorry for Mrs. Deaton. She just didn't know anything about snow. Did you go by yourself?

01:45:38.180 - 01:45:50.960

Yes, in my car. Do you remember that Christmas program? No, except that Mrs. Urban played the accompaniment for me. Do you remember what piece you played?

01:45:52.100 - 01:45:57.220

No, I don't. What music did you play? Some Christmas carols, I'm sure. No, I don't remember.

01:45:57.760 - 01:46:14.680

I had to go to church in town to get the music for it. I got it. I got back out to the field in spite of Mrs. Deatonís worries. After your wedding and the reception, did you have a honeymoon?

01:46:16.360 - 01:46:42.540

Sort of eventually. John had to go to be released first at Fort Sheridan, but we went together there and he was released. And then we had our honeymoon at Clear Lake in Iowa. My aunt had obtained a cottage for us up there, someone she knew had this cottage. So we were up there all

01:46:42.560 - 01:46:59.560

week and that was our official honeymoon. And after the honeymoon, then where did you go? We went back to my home, first of all, because it was not time yet for school to start for John at the University of Michigan.

01:47:01.460 - 01:47:25.760

And John helped my father with the fieldwork. He teases that he managed his fatherís farm. We stayed there I guess a month before we went to John's family home, right? And we were there then until school started, which was a little late during wartime.

01:47:25.820 - 01:47:41.640

It was a different schedule. John's family home was in Ann Arbor. No, it was in—what's your family home? What were John's plans?

01:47:42.200 - 01:47:49.340

Pardon? What were his plans? To go back to school, because he still was an undergrad. And what was he studying?

01:47:49.580 - 01:48:01.180

What did he want to be? Engineering, mechanical engineering. So when the year started, then we came back, we came over to Ann Arbor. John founded a park for us.

01:48:01.380 - 01:48:19.680

It was one room with a pull-down bed and a kitchen in one corner of the room. I think the bathroom was a previous, where you keep your clothes. Closet. Pardon?

01:48:20.460 - 01:48:38.560

Closet. Closet, but that became the bathroom. And while John was in school and studying, how did you spend your time? I taught flute in the music school at Michigan, and I also started grad work in music.

01:48:40.500 - 01:48:58.180

In fact, I guess I was a grad student for three years before John then had to leave to go to MIT and Boston, and we moved then. After the three years, we moved to Boston for him to go to school there. And where did you live in Boston?

01:49:01.040 - 01:49:38.420

First we lived in-- where did we first live in Boston? We lived in about three different places in Boston. Finally built a house in Lexington where we lived. For six years we John, while we were here, John was in the, what were you in? The Air National Guard, Michigan Air National Guard, and flying what used to be an A-26,

01:49:38.760 - 01:49:58.020

and it became a B-26 by that time, doing all the flying that he wanted to do. He was free to fly at any time. He also flew an 86 because he would fly to Boston to get my flute fixed. That's where my flute was made, in Boston.

01:49:58.240 - 01:50:22.680

So he'd take it back to the factory for any adjustment that needed to be done to it. He would call them to tell them he was coming and fly the flute there in the morning. And they would tell him where to go for lunch, and they would fix my flute. While he was having lunch, he would come back to the factory, pick up the flute, fly back

01:50:22.760 - 01:50:30.240

to Ann Arbor. [Laughter] Was this after he finished MIT? No, this is before MIT.

01:50:30.480 - 01:50:47.340

That's another part of the story. He wanted to apply to MIT, he flew to there in his uniform and talked to them about going to school there. It was too late to go the coming fall.

01:50:48.640 - 01:51:17.520

So he asked to attend MIT as a grad student the next year. that the professor who was interviewing him said, "Oh, why don't you come this fall?" So he, in his uniform, was accepted as a student at MIT, flew back to Ann Arbor to finish his work here, and we all moved to Boston then, that next fall.

01:51:18.730 - 01:51:39.700

And in Boston then, did you get a job? Yes, I taught flute some too and played in orchestras there too. I also worked at the coop, the cooperative store, which is right across the street from MIT on Mass Avenue. What did you do at the coop?

01:51:41.060 - 01:52:03.960

Oh, I think I was working in the office. I guess that's all I did there, just worked And I was teaching, and I played in orchestras all around there. I worked at the Coupe only a kind of a short time, I think, because I had so much playing to do and so much teaching to do.

01:52:04.090 - 01:52:24.120

DC: You studied with Larong. MO: Oh, that's right. I studied with a very wonderful - one of the two most wonderful flutists. His name was Georges Laurent, L-A-U-R-E-N-T. My French is not very good. But I'd go on

01:52:24.360 - 01:52:42.920

Sunday mornings to his apartment and have my lessons. I did that for two years. He was the most beautiful flutist ever, just beautiful. I had studied previously with Georges Barere in New York. How do you spell that?

01:52:42.920 - 01:53:06.960

B-A-R-R-E-R-A with a circumflex over the dexterity of the first A. But he was the first flutist, the principal flutist of the Boston Symphony. The most beautiful flutist I've ever heard. Gorgeous tone. Did you ever play with the Boston Symphony yourself?

01:53:07.360 - 01:53:17.960

No, not with people like that. It's marvelous, Flutist. And how long did you live in Boston? We were there nine years.

01:53:20.880 - 01:53:32.260

We were in different places, actually. We lived in-- where is MIT? Cambridge. Cambridge, in an apartment across the street,

01:53:32.620 - 01:53:41.720

actually, from MIT. And we lived in Brookline. And it was when we were in Brookline that we decided we must build a house in Lexington.

01:53:42.580 - 01:53:58.340

John found the place where we would build our house, the lodge, when I was in the hospital with our first child. And so we built it there and moved in several months later. We knew we had to get out of the place

01:53:58.420 - 01:54:14.700

where we were living in Brookline because it was an attic with nothing to keep the heat on. So we knew that before this next summer came, we had to be in our new house. We made it. Tell us about that first child.

01:54:15.590 - 01:54:40.880

Oh, David? He was actually not the first one because we had lost two children before then. They were twins. It was understandable. But David... What gave you the courage after losing to have another? One of the mothers of my students here said, "Have another child right away.

01:54:41.760 - 01:54:52.720

That will make you take away the pain." That was right. So we had David. David lives in Minneapolis now and is an engineer.

01:54:52.720 - 01:55:14.860

He graduated from his father's engineering department here. His father was head of the department at the time. David designed instruments that surgeons use. He has now retired and is learning to take care of airplanes.

01:55:15.800 - 01:55:24.740

He already had flown. He was a pilot and had built his own plane. He's welding the second one now. He sold the first one.

01:55:26.920 - 01:55:45.160

He now is learning to take care of airplanes, you know, what do you call it? Maintenance? Yes, because he's just so interested. He likes that sort of thing anyway, mechanical things, and loves flying and airplanes.

01:55:46.460 - 01:56:10.540

When did you decide to move back to Ann Arbor? How shall I say it? Michigan needed someone in his field, and one of his friends who had gone to MIT was back here in the department, actually.

01:56:12.800 - 01:56:34.780

I think he suggested John, that John was the man to build up this area in Michigan. We always liked Ann Arbor. We liked also Boston, so it was hard to leave. But we came back to Ann Arbor, and it was near John's home.

01:56:34.860 - 01:57:03.980

It made them very happy. The children were born in Boston. daughter was born there too. What other children did you have in Boston? We had three children in Boston and one was not to live and he has since passed away so we still have the other

01:57:04.100 - 01:57:23.040

two who were born in Boston. Are they both boys? No, a boy and a girl. Our daughter is the one who is in OB, Kainé, and is practicing in the Boston, Chicago area. She was a musician first. They're all musicians.

01:57:23.760 - 01:57:48.540

David spends all his time playing his clarinet. He plays in church, three services every Sunday morning, and is going to Peru for a week of doing the same thing, but then he will come back. Eloise was a violinist and studied with a very fine violin teacher, Dorothy DeLay, who

01:57:48.600 - 01:58:13.080

was the finest violin teacher, and played in a symphony orchestra for several years, and that was where she met her husband. And they both decided to change their music. are not many places, openings for violins. They would go to try out for an orchestra

01:58:13.320 - 01:58:44.480

and there would be one opening for about 75 people trying out. And the same way with Phil, her husband. So they decided that that was enough of that. They went to Nepal and climbed and Everest, partway up to 18,000 feet, and Annapurna also, and decided while they were there they would change their careers.

01:58:45.600 - 01:59:04.020

Eloise decided on medicine. She was always interested in medicine anyway, and Phil was always interested in finance. he went back to—what did he go? Northwestern. Kellogg School.

01:59:04.340 - 01:59:18.820

What did he say? Kellogg School, Northwestern. Yes, at Northwestern, and learned to be—what was he? What is he? Consultant.

01:59:19.440 - 01:59:36.040

What? Consultant. management consultant. That was his field. And Eloise's medicine, she had to start right back, you know, at the very beginning. There wasn't much science in music, so she had to

01:59:36.100 - 01:59:51.100

get all that science and go to medical school, four years, and then, what is next? What is it? Residency. Residence.

01:59:53.260 - 01:59:57.660

Yes, she was a resident then. Four years? Five? Four years.

01:59:57.840 - 02:00:15.540

She was in medical school for five years, I guess, and then resident four years. And now she has taken a permanent position of practice with a group in, what is the name of the town? Arlington Heights.

02:00:15.560 - 02:00:28.160

Arlington Heights. He bought a house in Inverness, a very nice house, where they want us to come live with them. Your children mainly then grew up in the Boston area?

02:00:28.540 - 02:00:37.580

That's where they were both born, and David was seven, I think, when we moved, and Eloise four. Okay. When you moved to Ann Arbor?

02:00:39.720 - 02:00:59.960

When did we move? So we moved to Dexter first, a few miles west, in 1957, and then we finally found this house and moved into it in 1960. When the children were growing up, what did you participate in that they were interested

02:01:00.240 - 02:01:13.320

in? Were they in Scouts? Yes, they were both in Scouts, both in music, both in church. Were you in PTA, for example?

02:01:13.780 - 02:01:33.500

Yes, of course. Then when you came back, when you came to Ann Arbor, what was John teaching? He was teaching, he was head of the mechanical engineering department for several years. That's what he was teaching.

02:01:33.900 - 02:01:54.020

And once the children left home, how did you spend your time? Did you do volunteer work or how did you spend your time? We did some volunteer work. We delivered motor meals for many years, actually. I did it for a while and John would go with me on the bad days, bad weather days.

02:01:54.500 - 02:02:17.360

And then when he retired, we would go together all the time. We were always busy with church work, and I was playing in the orchestra, the Ann Arbor Symphony, for several years, ten or twelve years. And now, how do you spend your time?

02:02:17.880 - 02:02:32.620

What are you interested in now? John wonders how he ever had time to work. He's so busy doing things. He's been writing this book, of course, about his wartime service, mainly about his missions

02:02:34.240 - 02:02:51.100

over Germany, and he just about finished that. I think it's all written and they're just checking now. And now, what is a Christmas like at your home? Do the children come? Well, they did, of course, for many years, but now we go to one of their homes, mainly

02:02:51.100 - 02:03:08.100

Eloise's house. She always wants the whole family to come there for Christmas and Thanksgiving. She puts up two trees. Everything very fancy. >> Boating. >> What is it?

02:03:08.100 - 02:03:31.520

>> Boating. >> Oh, yes, we have a boat. We've had a boat since, well, for 30 years. We sail boat first just south of Monroe in a nice, very busy marina down there. And then we decided that was too much work.

02:03:32.380 - 02:03:44.520

John had to do all the deck work on the sailboat. All I could do was steer. We decided we had to go to a powerboat, and that's what we've had now for the last four years.

02:03:45.040 - 02:04:05.280

but we keep it at the same slip, which we own, actually. It's a dockaminion thing, and we own our dock there. What, what? Okay, I'm going to have to stop. Oops, I'm sorry. She's out of film. We're almost done.

02:04:07.280 - 02:04:25.940

What it's all about. Tell me about this boat. Is it a little 15-foot boat? What kind of boat is it? No, it's a 36-foot, two engines. And do you go out and spend the night, or how do you use it?

02:04:25.940 - 02:04:44.980

Sometimes, yes. We really don't have a lot of time to use it in the summer. There's so many other things going on in the summer. the children visit and we visit them. We go to Minnesota for a month. We leave in two or three weeks down from Minnesota.

02:04:45.790 - 02:05:10.000

Do you have a home there, a cabin? Why do you go to Minnesota? We rent the same cottage every year. It's where my parents went to fish. Part of the time they would go to different places. They never bought a cottage because my father was always looking for a better place to fish. But this was the last lake they went to, and

02:05:10.100 - 02:05:33.340

the one we went with them to. So we just go to that place every summer. Do the children join you sometimes? Yes. In fact, I think our grandson is there with us all the time, and the others come for a week or two, and the next cottage over is my sister and her husband, and sometimes

02:05:34.540 - 02:06:04.480

there are four or five cottages occupied by her family and our family. Our son rents the cottage next, another cottage next to us. Sometimes his children come up to stay with They just naturally love to be in our cottage and we love to have them. Marie, what makes you happy?

02:06:05.460 - 02:06:16.100

What makes me happy? Well, I suppose my religion, for one thing. My belief in God. That would be the main thing.

02:06:18.250 - 02:06:34.100

We know that he's here always. John does a lot to make me happy. He takes very good care of me. The children, they're very devoted to their parents.

02:06:35.340 - 02:06:44.260

They're wonderful children. Oh my sister and her family are great. What else do we have? Music.

02:06:44.700 - 02:06:57.640

We go to concerts all the time. Ann Arbor has a lot of music, a lot of, even at the music school, there are wonderful artists there. We go to their things.

02:06:58.160 - 02:07:19.060

But the University Musical Society has a whole series of concerts of just the very best artists. Do you still participate in musical things? No, I don't play my flute anymore. It doesn't sound the way it should.

02:07:20.280 - 02:07:41.300

Let me ask you, in looking back over your life, you've done so many things. What is the one thing that you're most proud of? Oh, there are so many things. First of all, I had a very wonderful father and mother.

02:07:42.490 - 02:08:20.860

As my sister says, it was an ideal life. had prepared us, of course, for all the rest of wonderful things. How can I say it? It gives you a basis. And they were Christians, and it was always the Church. In keeping with that in everyone's life there are good times and there are bad times, there are happy times

02:08:20.860 - 02:08:46.200

and there are sad times. What has gotten you through the sad times? Knowing that that was what God had for us, his plan for us, and his taking care of it. I suppose the hardest thing was losing our twins to start with, but we knew that God had a different plan for them. They would not make the mistakes in living that the rest

02:08:46.380 - 02:09:18.700

of us are free to make. So, I think that was the worst time. Marie, if you, in looking ahead, in looking ahead, what would you like to say to your grandchildren or children of any grandparents that would encourage them, or what would you like to say to them that might encourage them to succeed in doing something not necessarily

02:09:18.920 - 02:09:48.380

what you did, but something that interests them? What would you like to say to them? Do their best in whatever they do, school or whatever. Yes, do their very best in everything. Is there anything that I have left out that you would like to say or any event that has happened that you would like to tell us about?

02:09:49.360 - 02:10:06.360

Anything at all? This is your life. I think you have a pretty good idea of my life. I do want to go back because I left out after you finished training and were at Las Vegas.

02:10:07.340 - 02:10:18.140

you sent on temporary orders to any other school? Did you go to OCS in Orlando? Oh yes, I did. Tell us about that. Orlando, Florida.

02:10:18.540 - 02:10:38.700

What was that school for? That was to prepare us to be officers because we expected to be officers, as you know. And And I think it was during that time maybe that we heard that the WASP was to be disbanded. Would that be the time?

02:10:39.400 - 02:10:56.940

But we had all this training as officers because we expected to be officers. Do you remember some of the courses that you took there? One was learning about the basis for TV. What is that called?

02:10:59.260 - 02:11:12.060

You know, you look at the earth through the, what is the word? Radar? Is it radar? We had a course in radar that was very interesting.

02:11:12.280 - 02:11:40.340

It gave the whole basis for the TV also. One way, of course, in military courtesy or learning to be an officer. there also male officers taking this course at the same time you were taking it? No, we were just the girls, but all of us instructors were men officers. We learned

02:11:40.440 - 02:12:04.700

to use a gas mask. One was a very dull thing, except that he was such a wonderful teacher. It was like hearing Bob Hope talk. I don't remember the course, but he was such a fascinating talker. And I don't remember, it was something dull.

02:12:05.980 - 02:12:23.960

But we were supposed to be in uniform, of course, always. And even down there we were in uniform, even though the weather was extremely hot. Do you recall how long that course lasted? Was it three weeks?

02:12:24.260 - 02:12:30.920

I didn't go. Three or four. And then how did you get back to Las Vegas? I trained.

02:12:34.720 - 02:13:04.100

John tells about it in his book that he was getting ready to go out of the country. He was at, in Tennessee, what was it, training with his crew that he would have in Germany or in England. And I, on my way from Las Vegas, from Orlando, I was going to stop in Des Moines to see my

02:13:04.180 - 02:13:17.720

parents and then on to Las Vegas. And I stopped in... I can't think of the name of the place where he was training with his crew. I stopped there to see him.

02:13:19.540 - 02:13:35.000

Then I went on to Des Moines to see my parents. While I was there, one of the girls at Las Vegas was killed. This was Beverly Moses. She was a Des Moines girl, and I had known her before going into the WASP.

02:13:36.940 - 02:14:00.700

She later was assigned to Las Vegas several months after. You may have known her because she was several months after my training. So they asked me to stay in Des Moines to attend her service and talk to her parents. I found just her father.

02:14:00.980 - 02:14:33.260

Her mother was evidently no longer living, so it was one of the most difficult things I've had to do to talk with him. Beverly was just riding along as a co-pilot in an HE-11. They just wanted somebody to go along with this pilot, and this pilot had been one of my students, my instrument students. And I considered him a very dangerous pilot because

02:14:33.260 - 02:14:55.740

He was under the hood. He one time did a role without warning me or having a chance to look to see if there was anyone around, you know how you're supposed to do. And so I really wasn't surprised that he ran into the mountain and took all—he was

02:14:55.780 - 02:15:20.740

taking link trainers for their air time, four of those, and Beverly and the pilot himself. And they ran into the side of the mountain, and Beverly was—they were all killed, of course. And so I had to go see that family. It was very difficult. Her father I just found in an upstairs bedroom, and I wondered if that was his home.

02:15:23.660 - 02:15:40.280

When you realized that that pilot was not really a good instrument pilot, did you recommend perhaps that he not? At that I don't remember. I have wondered, have I told Lieutenant Pauls that I did not want to ride with him anymore?

02:15:41.520 - 02:15:55.260

I just don't remember. I think that probably was my last ride with him. That was a shame. Were there any other schools that you had to go on TDY?

02:15:57.560 - 02:16:12.720

No, I think that was the only one, Chester, Orlando, OCS. It was Sweetwater or something. Did you go back to Sweetwater? Oh, that's right, to renew my instrument card.

02:16:13.640 - 02:16:31.820

I went back there in November. How long did that school last? Three weeks, I'm not sure. I didn't get to finish as soon as I might have because the weather got so bad and we couldn't fly, but eventually I got there.

02:16:32.760 - 02:16:42.960

Doesn't that seem strange that they would send you back there when you were teaching instruments? I think they were trying to make use of the school. Okay.

02:16:44.400 - 02:17:05.640

Don't you think so? Uh-huh. Yeah. instructors were still there. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? The legacy? That women can fly as well as the men. In fact, I think Kat Bonoff says they

02:17:05.840 - 02:17:23.640

fly better sometimes. As women have They have, what is it we have? Something that men donít have always. Yes, we can fly.

02:17:26.040 - 02:17:45.380

What do you feel your legacy will be? Oh, the family is so proud of me, thatís one thing. It made David very interested in flying, of course. He is a pilot and has built these airplanes that we have told you about.

02:17:45.860 - 02:18:05.600

Eloise is not interested in flying, she says, but she would be a very good pilot because she's a very fine automobile driver. She could do it if she wanted to and had the time to do it. Well, John is very proud of me.

02:18:06.420 - 02:18:28.220

In this book he talks about it all the time. I feel very proud that all that he says about me is Marie, it's very frequently all through the walk. Marie, what do you feel was the biggest asset from being a WASP?

02:18:29.120 - 02:18:44.460

What did the WASP training and your service teach you or how did it enhance your life? What about John? Good answer. That's the main thing.

02:18:46.560 - 02:19:04.520

I would never have met John otherwise. I'm sure. I don't know how I ever would have. Is there anything that I have left out? Anything else that you would like to talk about or to tell us or to tell your children on camera or your grandchildren?

02:19:05.080 - 02:19:29.160

I would think of a lot of things after we finished. finish because there are just so many facets to one's life, you know, your family, your childhood, school, learning to fly, and music. We just go to concerts all the time. And John enjoys them too, fortunately.

02:19:32.220 - 02:20:02.300

we have explained to you briefly what this particular project is all about. What do you feel that this project might accomplish? Well, I think it lets people know what women were able to do and what they enjoyed doing. It's a very wonderful thing to think back on, actually.

02:20:03.120 - 02:20:25.740

I think it is nice that we're having these books and things written to remind us and to let other people know about what we have done. It was a very important thing, I feel. What is the importance of history as far as you know?

02:20:26.620 - 02:20:49.700

If we don't learn by history, we make the mistakes all over again. You have been a wonderful person to interview. And I hope children a hundred years from now will listen to you and take your advice. And I thank you so much.

02:20:50.120 - 02:20:58.980

I have enjoyed it very much. Thank you, Jeannie. Can you ask her her favorite word? Yeah, what is your favorite word?

02:20:59.840 - 02:21:14.540

Word? You mean I have to narrow it down to one word? Or two. But it has to be God. We couldn't end on a sweeter note.

02:21:15.520 - 02:21:19.180

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. That's one, one, one, one.