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And it's just a conversation. Well, that sounds nice. Okay. I'm going to give you a little mint when we're all done.

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No, I'm kidding. I'm just kidding. You can be eligible for a snicker. That's right.

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Okay. I'm rolling color bars right now. Okay. And we're almost done.

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Turn them off. Okay. Let's roll. Okay.

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We are rolling. I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. We are interviewing Margaret Tamplin. She was a WASP, Class 44W3.

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We are in her home in Phoenix, Arizona. The videographer is Nancy Parrish, and today is the 9th of November, 2001. Margaret, if you will state your full name and when and where you were born, and then we'll go from there.

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Well, my full name is Margaret Lenora Chamberlain Tamplin. I go by Margaret C. Tamplin. I was born in Veneta, Oklahoma, on August 26, 1918. Okay.

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Tell us about your-- Wait, wait, wait. Does that mean you're an Okie? I'm an Okie.

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Yes, I am. And proud. I'm proud to be an Okie. I left there, but I do claim to be an Okie.

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Absolutely. Tell us about your mom and dad. Well, what can I say about mom and dad? I remember them as a couple of very young people because they were married when they were young.

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I think they had one son who was born dead before I came along. They were--I think mother was 19 when I was born. My father was 21. We lived on a farm, at least my first remembrance is living on a farm.

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We did live in town when I was a little baby. How old were you when you moved into town? Probably five or six, and then very shortly we moved to Coffeyville, Kansas. Okay.

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Out on that farm, what did your dad raise? Goodness, I-- Do you know? I don't really know.

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I'm sure he raised corn. Do you remember having chickens? And we had--oh, yes, we had chickens. My mother always had a flock of chickens.

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I remember dad coming in from the field with a team of horses, and Mike always, when I was a little girl, he'd let me and my sister hop on the horse and ride part of the way back. I had a dog, and I used to spend a lot of time in my first few years with my little dog. In fact, my mother chided me one time for running off, and I had the little dog with me, and I said,

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"Well, the pup wanted to go see McNeil's," and so I took him up there. So that went over like everything. My sister was interested in the cows and things. We had cows.

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We had milk. My mother made wonderful butter. I know everybody tried to get her fresh butter. And it was--well, that's about the way I remember.

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Was your sister older or younger? My sister was three years younger than me, and I think I was about five when I got drunk for the first time because my mother had a bad cold, and the doctor had come out, and she made very good wine. And the doctor told my father, he said, "Well, why don't you give your wife a glass of that wine

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because that would be really good for her." So my father got the bottle out and set it on the table and opened it up and turned around to get a glass, and the bottle just disappeared, and he couldn't find it. Just out of the blue, here's a vanishing bottle.

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He later found me out in the yard waddling around, going around, saying, "This juice makes me go this way." I had drunk the bottle of wine. So that started me, I guess.

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Anyway-- Do you know what he made the wine from? Grape and elderberry. I well know that.

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Did he grow those grapes? Yes. I mean, they would grow their own. The elderberries, I think, were wild, but she made it out.

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That was a very good wine. The doctor that we had, I remember him well because he used to bring my sister and me candy and chewing gum. And I know I comforted her once when he was coming. I said, "Don't cry, Dorothy.

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Doc Craig come bring us chewing gum and candy." So that was the old-fashioned doctor. He came in a horse and buggy and brought his little chewing gum and chocolates. I guess that's what we were doctored with.

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We always got well somehow. I remember a neighbor's dog biting me. It was a tiny little dog, and they had taken me out to see the little dog's puppies. I guess it startled the dog because she leaped up and I screamed and she bit me through the mouth like that and then down on my ankle.

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We didn't have tetanus shots or anything in those days. We were doctored, went our merry way with, I guess, a little iodine on it. How far out of town was the farm? As I recall, it was probably seven or eight miles, not too far.

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Well, Vanita was the old place anyhow. Right. Oklahoma had lots of Indians. Did you ever see any Indians? I am a registered member of the Cherokee tribe.

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I don't have very much Indian, but we could trace our Indian blood back. My father was registered on the Dawes Roll in, I don't know, early 1900s when they registered all the Indians. In fact, he and his brothers and sisters were allocated a bit of land, but we were Cherokees. My great-grandfather was a missionary to the Cherokees.

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I think that's how he got involved and married into the tribe or something. So we were involved with the Indians a little bit. Tell me about your grandparents. My what?

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Grandparents. Oh, they were wonderful people. My mother and father both lived on a farm, and we kids liked to go down in the summer. She told wonderful stories, just wild things, and took us hiking all over the countryside and taught me how to fish.

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It was just wonderful to go see her. My grandfather was a little advanced of his time. He started raising soybeans, and I know everybody thought he'd lost his mind because there was no market for soybeans. And he was raising, spending his time doing that.

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My other grand—my father's mother and father lived in town, and I think they felt just in the realm of society just above my mother's father and mother. But—and my grandmother was quite fat, but a wonderful person, and she really inspired me to read and study and go to school.

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And my grandfather, I remember him taking me to the circus and putting up Christmas trees on Christmas and that sort of thing. We spent lots of time with our grandparents. They were willing to put up with us and were just fun to be with.

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What did the grandfather that lived in town do? That's a good question. I'm not sure, because when I really—I know he'd been mayor of the town once, and I think he'd had a—oh, I don't know what you call it—where he sold—bought and sold grain.

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Elevator, I think they called them in those days. Grain elevator. I think that he had that. And I'm—as I say, I'm not too sure. My grandmother taught school, and my grandfather also knew Will Rogers.

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They used to get—when Will Rogers would come back to some of the festivities, they always had a little visit, and I think tried to out— he's also the one that told me not to let the truth mar a good story, so I expect they both told a lot of tales.

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Do you recall ever having seen Will Rogers? I don't recall being there when he was there. Probably wouldn't have made any difference. Can you recall what Christmas was like in your home when you were a child?

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Well, we generally went to Granddad Chamberlain's, and all I can remember is lots of people, lots of food, and just kids being played with, their toys being played with, and that sort of thing. Do you recall the Christmas tree and how it was?

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Yes, I do, because as I recall—and I may be wrong on this, but I seem to recall we had candles on our Christmas tree when Granddad first put it up. And I had to be very careful about being around it until, you know, the night when they put the candles out.

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And what would a Christmas dinner be like? Oh, goodness. Would it be chicken from the farm? It would be probably a goose or turkey,

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but mostly we had, as I recall, we had geese a lot for a festive dinner. And my grandmother out on the farm raised geese, so I remember her picking the down off of the— she'd pick that old goose up and throw his head back of her arm,

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and strip the down off of the goose and save it for pillows and things. But lots of pies. I remember pies. Well, there were just lots of food, so. And they often say my first Christmas I was, what, four or five months old,

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and they gave me a turkey bone to chew on, so they started me off eating young. So I survived that. And then when you were about five, you moved into town? We moved into town, and then we weren't there very long.

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I don't remember that too much. I remember going to—starting to—I don't know whether it was kindergarten or first grade. And then we moved to Coffeyville. Okay. And then what did your dad do in Coffeyville?

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My dad was a boiler maker, welder, sort of a laborer, and he worked for Sinclair Refinery. Okay. Were you on sort of an area with other men, their families, that worked for the same refinery? Well, Coffeyville, most everybody—I won't say everybody, but yes, there were a lot of people that worked for—there were some stores,

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but mostly they were—and of course doctors and lawyers and the like, but mostly— I mean, there were two big refineries there, and so that supported the town. Okay. And these refineries were what? Oil refinery? Oil. Oil. Oil refinery.

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Okay. Sinclair Oil Refinery, and I think the other one was National. I'm not sure. I should know, but I don't remember. Do you recall starting school there when you went to school in Coffeyville?

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I don't recall, well, sort of vaguely starting school. I remember the school. I recall some of my later grade school year, four or five—in fact, I've got a picture out of the newspaper. It was a little one-room schoolhouse, and I think there were five grades in it, and only a few students in each grade.

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And it was probably about a mile from home, and I walked. We never owned our home. We always had to—we were always renting. And when I went to this—well, I went into town in the sixth grade. I went into town to go to school. I remember that.

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During that first five years, you had one teacher for all five grades? Do you recall that teacher at all, how she might have influenced you? Not really. As I say, I've got her picture on my kitchen table. I should dig that out of the class.

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Could you tell us how that worked, with five grades in one room? Well, I don't remember exactly, but we just all did our own little lessons that we were supposed to do, and she would listen to them or question us or have us turn in paperwork. And apparently it worked okay. We all managed to get through, so far as I know,

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because my brother was in there when I was there. I don't know why my sister's not in the picture, because she should have been— because she was between me and my brother. He was five years younger than me, and she was three, so I must have been—

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he must have been in the first grade. And we—I remember us having a wood stove that we had to keep in the winter when it was cold, keep wood in, burn that, start that. It was out in the country, or at least insofar as the town was concerned, it was considered country.

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And it was on a little stream, so recess periods were wonderful. We'd tramp up and down the woods and in the stream and look for crawdads or whatever, and it was just a fun little place to be. And we learned a lot.

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I think I was in—went into town for the fifth—maybe the fifth or sixth grade. I know the sixth grade I was there, because that's where I had a wonderful geography teacher, and she just caused me to want to go all over this world. I mean, also I learned to read adventure stories.

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And there were two boys and another friend that sat—we four sat back in the corner, sort of, and we'd sneak these little books in that we could put behind our geography book and read. And I remember one series was Joe Strong, and they were wonderful stories. Joe Strong, the boy magician, and Joe Strong joins the circus.

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Joe Strong goes to Africa. They were just great stories. The teacher didn't approve of them, but we thought they were wonderful. But she was a great teacher. In elementary school, what kind of student were you?

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Well, I was a fair student. I never was a straight-A student, but I was a little above average, generally. But I liked to study and I liked to read, and I had inspiring teachers. They were really wonderful teachers. I don't think—I don't—and looking back, I don't remember a bad teacher that I had.

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I think Coffeyville or Kansas at that time was rated as number one of the top states for good education, if I recall, and as I say, they were just good teachers. In that school, how big was your class? Was it just one class in each grade? One class in each grade. Gosh, I don't know. Let's see, five—maybe twenty-five or thirty.

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That's a rough guess, but I'm just trying to imagine how the— What were your dreams when you were a child? Oh, dear. Mainly while I was in Coffeyville, my dream was to get through school and get out of this place. That was—I don't know.

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At ten, when I was ten, my father—we went out to where the barnstormers— in those days, we didn't have an airport, but planes flew over, and everybody in town would go out and look skyward to see what's happening. And oftentimes, they would land in the pasture, and then they would take up passengers.

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And so, in 1928, my father—we went out one Sunday to watch the planes. That's generally what we did, but my mother and I, he let us squander—and I say squander, because we didn't have spare cash—a dollar apiece, and we went up for a flight. Well, after that, that's all.

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I mean, my idea was to get in the air somehow. I didn't know how I was going to do it, but as Nancy said, God helps, and I think he's helped me an awful lot, because I went ahead hoping that I could fly. I never knew how I'd get to, but eventually I did.

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And as I say, I also got out of Coffeyville, which I'm sure the Chamber of Commerce would not approve. When you finished, what, sixth grade, then you went into junior high? We went into junior high. We had seventh, eighth, and ninth as junior high,

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and then we went into high school. Was it all in the same building? No, we really had quite nice facilities. Junior high was a lovely building, and then they built the—

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I don't think—I don't remember whether it was built just before I went in or not, but very short, around the time, and in fact it's still there. Both buildings are being used. It had an indoor swimming pool and was just really first class.

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Nice auditorium, everything was there. In those days, we didn't have proms. We had— Banquets?

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Banquets. In the junior high, we had to take sewing. The girls had to learn to sew and cook, and we had to make our own dress that we were going to wear to the junior and senior banquets,

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so we weren't overly dressed at the banquets. In junior high and then on into high school, did you do other activities other than just academics? Well, I was always active in sports.

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In junior high, I was captain of the basketball team and played on that. In fact, we were also integrated in Coffeyville, and we had black students going to our school. Because my dad likes to point out, when I rant and rave here a few years ago

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about them forcing integration, I said they couldn't tell me that I had to put a black person on my team if I didn't want. He said, "Well, you did back there." And I said, "Well, that was because she was a good player, and I wanted to win, and we liked her."

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It wasn't because I had to, because I was filling the quota, and I felt very strongly about that. In fact, of all the girls that I'd like to see, one of them is a black girl that sat next to me in chemistry.

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I'd just give anything to know what happened to her. She was a brain, a really nice gal. Were you ever interested in music? Well, I played at a violin for a number of years.

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It was in the junior high orchestra, but when I went to high school, I dropped it. But yes, I was. I squeaked and squawked, along with the rest of them. In your high school or junior high school,

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did you have competition in sports like football and basketball? I think we did. We played different schools. I don't remember too much about them, but we did have--

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there was competition among the local towns, because I remember going, oh, maybe 50 or 100 miles away to a game. Yeah, I'd forgotten about that. We did have high school competition.

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What was your social life like in high school? Oh, dear. Well, it wasn't much of a social life, really. I'm still in touch, and she visits here, where I did a year ago

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and was planning to this year. One of the girls that I started out in the first grade in Coffeyville with-- we didn't really have--we'd go to each other's homes, and there wasn't much, a lot to do there.

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How involved were your mom and dad with your school activities? They weren't really involved, hardly at all. I know I was invited to the junior/senior banquet by a senior, which was quite something in those days.

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But my father just went to pieces because I got home 15 minutes after the banquet was over, and that just was unrealistic to expect me to get home in five minutes because we'd double dated and we had to drop the other couple off.

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And at that stage in life, I said, "Men are not worth it. I mean, I'll not go through this again." I mean, just completely upset. So that kind of curtailed my really social activities.

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I went to parties and things, but it wasn't as active as I understand the kids do now. It wasn't then. What was your favorite subject in high school?

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Oh, dear. What was my favorite subject? Probably English. I loved reading and I loved poetry. I wasn't very good at chemistry and biology and zoology. I took what was called a college preparatory course.

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I hadn't the foggiest idea of where I'd be able to go to college or not, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to have a good background. And I took Spanish and Latin and math. I think of geometry. I liked geometry very much.

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I wasn't particularly good at history. I've only come to appreciate that in my older years. As you were growing up, who were your role models? Who was I?

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Your role models. Probably my aunt who lived in Veneta, Oklahoma, my Aunt Lois. She took a lot of interest in me and inspired me to go on to school, to hang in, as we'd say.

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She had ended up at home taking care of her father, but prior to that she had had a rather interesting life. When she was out single, she had gone to work for a telephone company and traveled a lot with them.

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She'd been a teacher out on a ranch in Colorado, and she had gone to Cornell. I don't think she graduated, but she'd spent her Indian money to go as far as she could.

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I would say she was my role model. She was a wonderful table-longer. As you were growing up, what did you do during the summertime? Did you have vacations?

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Well, the family as such didn't really go on vacations, but we went down to stay with our grandparents a lot. I did. I went to Aunt Lois. I always spent a lot of time with her.

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When I was home, I played a lot of tennis, and we didn't have swimming pools that were convenient. We had one in Coffeyville, but it was quite a long way, so it was hard to get to.

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Our friends, we'd hike a lot around the countryside, bicycle. Just nothing very spectacular as far as a summer vacation. After your junior/senior banquet, then came graduation. Tell me about your graduation.

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Did you have caps and gowns? We had caps and gowns. I really don't remember a lot about the graduation other than just we finished, got our diploma and departed.

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Did you have a baccalaureate? I'm not sure. I think we did, but I really don't remember enough about that. My mother and father were getting a divorce

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and separating about that time, so there was just a lot of upset. How did that affect you? I was glad it happened, actually.

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They weren't happy together, and they should never have gotten married in the first place. It just seemed a good thing. You had a younger brother and sister.

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I think it really upset them. I won't say it ruined their life, but it did upset them terribly because they both were very fond of their parents.

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Well, we all were. I did not dislike my mother or my father. I just thought it was unfortunate. But I was older, and I don't know.

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I really, as they say, about that time then, or that fall, I think it was, I went to Shreveport to go to school. How did you select Shreveport?

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I didn't really select it. My aunt and uncle were living there. They had no children, and it was easy for me to go down,

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for them to invite me down. They had suggested that my sister come and live with them, but she didn't want to, so I was kind of second choice.

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But anyway, it worked out all right, and they had two schools there. They had Centenary. There was a junior college called Dodd Junior College,

00:29:04.000 - 00:29:15.000

which Centenary later took over, but I started in at the Dodd College, the junior college, and then went on to the bigger college.

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And how did you pay for that? Well, my aunt and uncle paid for it. I worked some under a government program to help pay for it,

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like running the switchboard. I worked in the library part of the time and did that sort of thing, which helped a little.

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I'm sure it didn't help. And then during summer, I worked-- well, my uncle, I worked in his office during vacation, because they always had to hire someone

00:29:50.000 - 00:30:06.000

to take over his secretary while she went on vacation. What did your uncle do? He was district manager of the Continental Supply Company, and that was oil supply business.

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I don't know if you're familiar with it. I think that's still their name. They may have changed the name. But his area was in Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana.

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I mean, he was district head of that. And since he was in a district office, some of the other men also hired me because they liked the work I was doing,

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and so they brought me in to do extra work for them. I never had any trouble getting work. Had you had commercial classes in high school, like shorthand typing, bookkeeping?

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No, I didn't take-- I took what they called college preparatory, and that was the arts and sciences and that sort of thing.

00:30:56.000 - 00:31:09.000

Bookkeeping, I sort of picked up-- well, I took a course of typing in high school. I can still remember the note my mother got from the teacher saying, "This is to inform you Margaret is failing in typing.

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"Of course, you know she has a terrible temper, "and this hinders her work considerably." So my temper did flare up again. I had been working on my temper

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because people had told me it was a bad-- that I had a bad temper and I should do something about it. And I was trying. People had been telling me how good I was--

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or how much I was improving, and then I get this note from the teacher-- or my mother did; I didn't get it. So I didn't do very well in typing.

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In college, I took a course in shorthand. I didn't do very well in that either. I was flunking that. But I did take what they called at that time a commerce course.

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It was a business course, or accounting, pre-law, business administration, and that sort of thing. And it has gotten me through a lot of jobs.

00:32:09.000 - 00:32:20.000

I've managed to use them well. So I was fortunate. I had thought at one time I might be a CPA. There were two fellows in my class,

00:32:20.000 - 00:32:32.000

and we three became friends, and we decided when we graduated, we'd get our CPA and we'd open an office. Well, of course, the war came on.

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One of them was washed overboard on a Navy ship, drowned, and that left me in the wasp. And poor Lewis, he just carried on by himself. He had a missing finger and couldn't be in the military,

00:32:50.000 - 00:33:01.000

so he was exempt. When you went down to college in Shreveport, what did you intend to use-- how did you intend to use your education?

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What did you want to be? Well, as I say, I was thinking along the lines of an accountant. But things kind of became, by the way, sad. I felt that if you get yourself prepared,

00:33:17.000 - 00:33:32.000

then you can--for several things-- then you can have a choice when you're through. I didn't have my mind just mindset on getting through as for one occupation, you might say.

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I also found it interesting that I had no problem with competition from men because I was-- in taking this commerce course, one of my classes--statistics, for example--

00:33:50.000 - 00:34:04.000

I was the only girl in the class. One of my accounting classes, I think there were two of us or three, maybe three girls--I know there was two-- in a class of about 60 men or boys.

00:34:04.000 - 00:34:18.000

So, yes, I don't know whether to throw this tidbit in now. I've laughed, I've told about it, because I talked about sexual harassment, which just leaves me cold.

00:34:18.000 - 00:34:35.000

But we sat three at a table to do our study and our work. And one day this kid sitting next to me, Roy Kavanagh, I'll never forget him, reached over and pinched me on the buttocks, and I let out a war hoop, of course.

00:34:35.000 - 00:34:44.000

The class went into an uproar, wondering what on earth had happened. And, you know, it was just a good joke. I didn't blame him.

00:34:44.000 - 00:34:58.000

I didn't think he was harassing me in the least. Maybe he was, and I didn't know it. But it was just one of those things that we all laughed about. - While you were in college, what was your social life like there?

00:34:58.000 - 00:35:20.000

- Well, we had lots of activities. I was a member of the Zeta Tau Alpha sorority, and so we had parties, we had dances. I had friends that I went around with to different functions,

00:35:20.000 - 00:35:36.000

and we just hung out, so to speak. They had a nice rec hall on the college campus. We spent a lot of time playing ping pong. In fact, I accused my friends, the two of them,

00:35:36.000 - 00:35:52.000

that we hung out with so much, of majoring in ping pong. I don't think either one of them did a lot of study. - When you finished the junior college, then you went on to centenary, how far was that?

00:35:52.000 - 00:36:05.000

Was it still in Shreveport? - Oh yeah, it wasn't very far, a couple of miles, maybe, something like that. - And you would still live with your aunt and uncle? - I still was with them.

00:36:05.000 - 00:36:18.000

Once you got your home life set up with my aunt and uncle, it wasn't easy to get away. My aunt had no children. She'd always wanted children, and so I really--

00:36:18.000 - 00:36:33.000

it was almost a problem, because I became her little girl then. And it didn't matter whether I had a responsible job or what I was doing, I was still her little girl, which was fine. I mean, it worked out well.

00:36:33.000 - 00:36:49.000

I ended up getting into the WASP and into the flying. - While you were still at centenary, did Pearl Harbor happen while you were in college? - No, no, I was out of college.

00:36:49.000 - 00:36:57.000

- Let me ask you about your graduation then from seminary and what you did. - Seminary? - Seminary. - Oh dear, I don't remember.

00:36:57.000 - 00:37:16.000

I just remember all the commotion there. We had, of course, the baccalaureate, and then we had regular graduation, I mean, services. - And did you have a job lined up before you got out of school?

00:37:16.000 - 00:37:30.000

- Well, not really. Again, I worked down at the Continental for, well, let's see, I'm not sure which summer this was. It may have been--no, it wasn't when I graduated.

00:37:30.000 - 00:37:48.000

The summer before I graduated, I had been offered--it was quite a plumb, really. I mean, I wasn't majoring in library science by any means, but the Shreveport Library offered an apprenticeship course every summer for two or three girls if they were interested.

00:37:48.000 - 00:38:09.000

And my aunt had a friend who was on the board or helped select the-- so naturally I had an in, so I got to do that. The hardest work I ever did in my life, and lasted all summer. Then one summer I volunteered to work with Girl Scouts

00:38:09.000 - 00:38:26.000

and went on day camps with the troop of orphans. That was a sad summer, but it was hard work in a way. I'd go out with these little girls in the morning to the campsite, and we'd do different crafts and things all day.

00:38:26.000 - 00:38:39.000

Then come back at night and I'd think, "I can't make it tomorrow." Then they'd all say, "Good night, Mrs. Chamberlain. Good night, Miss Chamberlain. We'll see you tomorrow." And I'd think, "Well, I've got to go.

00:38:39.000 - 00:38:54.000

I can't stay here even if I want to stay here. I've got to go out with those little girls." What did that experience teach you? I guess to be thankful for what I have, if nothing else.

00:38:54.000 - 00:39:07.000

I'm sure it did. I mean, I found it very fortunate that I did. To be patient. You had to be patient with their activities,

00:39:07.000 - 00:39:24.000

try to help them, make them happy they're alive. So it was an experience. Did it help curb your temper? Well, I think along the wayside I finally lost my temper.

00:39:24.000 - 00:39:44.000

I mean, yeah, my temper had vanished. As I say, that letter just about revived it. But I had been working on it, and I'd learned that that was not the thing to do. To explode wasn't going to help matters at all.

00:39:44.000 - 00:40:00.000

Where were you when you heard about Pearl Harbor, and how did you feel? You know, this is a question that I haven't the foggiest idea where I was. Isn't that awful? I've heard more people—I mean, I've had that question.

00:40:00.000 - 00:40:24.000

I've tried to answer myself, just where I was. I was either—I probably was in Shreveport with my aunt. That's the vague picture I had on Sunday morning when we were— I generally went to church every Sunday when I was back there.

00:40:24.000 - 00:40:39.000

And I was probably getting ready. And you're stunned. It's just like watching this trade center. It's hard to believe. I mean, it seems so fantastic. Okay. We're going to change tapes.

00:40:39.000 - 00:40:48.000

Do you remember where you were? No. I was curious. No, I wonder— I do remember how it changed America.

00:40:48.000 - 00:41:08.000

Oh, yes, it did change America. It changed everything. I was working at the airport for this flight school, and you can't believe the change. I mean, fellows had forged birth certificates and everything else to get into flying and then went for a walk. I want you to tell them.

00:41:08.000 - 00:41:19.000

We'll talk about that in just a second. I'm going to ask you, do you want some water? Yes. Okay. Watch your head when you get up. Okay. Let me ask you about Centenary.

00:41:19.000 - 00:41:46.000

What kind of college was Centenary? Was it a state school? It was a private school. As I understand—I should know more, but I've forgotten it. It's the oldest college west of the Mississippi, as I understand. It was originally in a Methodist school, but it's sort of gotten away from that, and it's now one of the ranking colleges.

00:41:46.000 - 00:42:14.000

It's a private school. It's a small school. I think they had about 900 students when I was there. It was known for their pre-med courses. They had a wonderful pre-med teacher and just general English, history, that sort of thing. Social studies, I guess you'd call it.

00:42:14.000 - 00:42:41.000

Tell me about your favorite teachers in college. Well, I guess Mr. C., who was in charge of the accounting section. He was just wonderful, just absolutely super. And he, I won't say especially, took a liking to me, but there were two or three—well, a couple of fellows in me that he seemed to like.

00:42:41.000 - 00:43:12.000

And he used to give us fun things to do, like audit his advertising club books and practice on things that were not really in the curriculum, but just for the experience. And I liked him. Mr. White, who used to read Spanish novels to us in Spanish, he was another great teacher. I can't think of his name right now, but he taught statistics.

00:43:12.000 - 00:43:33.000

He was a good teacher. I can't say much for the shorthand teacher, but then I was not really much into shorthand. I took it thinking it'd help me take notes, but I had by that time developed my own system, so learning Gregg was just hopeless, for me anyway. Just absolutely hopeless.

00:43:33.000 - 00:43:49.000

As far as home economics, you only got that in junior high? We only got that. In fact, I have the dress I made in that sewing class, or one of them. I couldn't do it now, but I still have it.

00:43:49.000 - 00:44:11.000

She was a dear, she was crippled, and a wonderful teacher. Maybe I say that because she gave me such good grades and thought I was a good seamstress, or whatever you call it. I made good grades. We had cooking, we had a cooking class.

00:44:11.000 - 00:44:42.000

But that was only, home ec was, well I guess if I'd majored, but I wasn't interested in that. When I took cooking in junior high, I had this friend whose father owned a produce company, and I lived out where we had our own cow and milk, so we used to smuggle cream and butter and fresh vegetables in to make our food. So we learned to cook that way, hit and miss.

00:44:42.000 - 00:45:00.000

In order for you to finish that class, did you have to put on a dinner? We put on a dinner, we did that. We had to have it served, and put it on. The home ec department was set up with a special dining room for us to use.

00:45:00.000 - 00:45:14.000

I mean, that's what we had to do. Okay, now we'll go back to Pearl Harbor. Where were you working at that time? Let's see, December, I was working for Badgett Flying School there in Shreveport.

00:45:14.000 - 00:45:28.000

How did you get that job? Well, I had finished college and I had taken the CPT course. Okay, let's go back then and talk about the CPT course. What got you interested in that?

00:45:28.000 - 00:45:47.000

Well, the 1928 flight. Well, in fact, it was free, and when I heard about it, I started asking, well, there was no way I could get to the airport. That was, no transportation. So I started talking to my aunt and uncle about going to the airport and learning to fly.

00:45:47.000 - 00:46:12.000

I think I finally wore them out because my aunt finally one day took me out there and let me enroll. And then hoped that I would flunk the physical. And so I didn't flunk that, so I got to go. So after that, they let me go to the airport, shuttling, using their car or taking me out there.

00:46:12.000 - 00:46:32.000

So I got my license. I didn't realize at the time that I could have gone ahead and taken the advanced course, but I had my license and that's all I was really interested in. I wasn't going to fly commercially or do anything like that. Were your flight lessons a part of the CPT program?

00:46:32.000 - 00:46:54.000

They were all, yeah. The CPT was, the idea back of the CPT, I don't know if I'm repeating stuff you already know. Well, anyway, the American public could see that there's a buildup of pilots in Europe and Germany. I think Lindbergh came back and talked about all the pilots in Germany.

00:46:54.000 - 00:47:14.000

And so the government decided we have no pilots over here, very few. We better build up a surplus of pilots too. So they started what they called the Civilian Pilot Training Program, CPT. And through that program, they've trained pilots at no cost.

00:47:14.000 - 00:47:39.000

It had to be, at the time, I think they later changed it, but starting out it had to be connected with the college. The college would give the ground school and there would be a flight contractor give flight training. But to convince the public that this is strictly a civilian thing, there's no military idea at all back of it, 10% of the class had to be women if they applied.

00:47:39.000 - 00:47:56.000

So naturally, I applied. Well, I think there was one other girl applied. So they had no trouble getting as many men as possible. And they gave it to us, well, we had to buy a life insurance policy, I think $30, something like that.

00:47:56.000 - 00:48:17.000

So they gave us a private pilot license. That's what everybody got. And then they opened it up to have advanced training for, and had advanced training in cross-country flying. So I got in and got my license in the spring of '41.

00:48:17.000 - 00:48:27.000

What year were you in college when you did that? Well, I was out of college then. You were out of college, okay. And that's in 1941, February of '41.

00:48:27.000 - 00:48:36.000

I got my license in May. Tell me about your first solo flight. What were you flying? A J-3 Cub.

00:48:36.000 - 00:48:54.000

And I had no idea that my instructor was going to let me go up. He was, to begin with, he was a little five-foot, blue-eyed, red-headed Italian. He was a wonderful instructor. But he let me know that I was just a hunk of protoplasm in there.

00:48:54.000 - 00:49:20.000

And it didn't matter whether I was a girl or not, he wasn't going to give me any partiality or show me any favoritism. So, and he let me, well, when he crawled out and said, "It's all yours," I couldn't believe it. Because it was, well, it was just the biggest thrill in the world to go around that airport in your little J-3 Cub, even though it's not a very big plane.

00:49:20.000 - 00:49:29.000

I was off the ground. And, uh— Did your mom and dad know what you were doing? Yeah, they didn't, didn't bother—

00:49:29.000 - 00:49:39.000

Didn't bother you? Didn't bother them. They just would cheer me on. I mean, if that's what you want to do, go ahead and be stupid and do it, sort of thing.

00:49:39.000 - 00:49:53.000

Did you have anything unusual happen when you were in that CPT program? Not really. It was a very—everything went fairly smooth. Well, everything went fairly smoothly.

00:49:53.000 - 00:50:17.000

I heard that I was used sort of as a guinea pig, because my instructor had students, male students, that were afraid of doing spins. And they used to tell me that—the fellows did, anyway—said Joe would stand on the ground and have—send me up to do spins, and then stand there and say, "Look at my girl.

00:50:17.000 - 00:50:28.000

She's not afraid to do spins. Look at that. She's doing another one," and, you know, sort of used me as a guinea pig. I didn't know this at the time, but they later told me that.

00:50:28.000 - 00:50:46.000

And he was not about to—but he was a great instructor. All of his students, he taught several years there. And your ground school, what did that consist of? Well, the meteorology and navigation and instruments.

00:50:46.000 - 00:51:02.000

I think we had stuff pretty much what we got in the—similar to what—on a much smaller scale than what we got in Sweetwater. And you were given grades for it for college? No. It had nothing to do with—it really didn't have anything to do with your college.

00:51:02.000 - 00:51:17.000

It just—the college had to be the sponsor. I guess maybe they billed the government or something. And I met the ground school instructor. He liked me, too, and so that was nice, because he was a real good fellow.

00:51:17.000 - 00:51:34.000

He had an old plane. And anyway, when I finished school, I mean, flying, I was looking for work, but I hadn't really pinned anything down. I was sitting home—my aunt and uncle were out of town, and I was sitting home one day,

00:51:34.000 - 00:51:47.000

and the phone rang, and it was Claude, the ground instructor, asking me if I wanted a job at the airport. Well, did I want that job? I made the remark that of all the jobs in Shreveport,

00:51:47.000 - 00:52:04.000

the one I'd like to have was out at the airport working for Bagehot. And lo and behold, never dreaming I had a prayer added, she decided to quit and go to Washington, D.C. And so they called me and asked me if I'd like it.

00:52:04.000 - 00:52:20.000

Well, that was kind of a stupid question, because I would have almost killed for it. And, of course, there's no local transportation, and I didn't have a car, and this is really a problem. And I said, "Well, this sounds crazy to say, too,

00:52:20.000 - 00:52:36.000

someone's giving you a job, but how will I get to work?" And he said, "Don't worry about that. We'll send for you every morning." And so I said, "Well, of course, I'll be right out." So when my aunt and uncle came back and found that I was working at the airport,

00:52:36.000 - 00:53:00.000

I mean, Mount Etna went off and Slaughtery Boulevard. I mean, they just couldn't understand, I mean, how I could be out there working at this awful job because no self-respecting white girl would be there. I'm the only girl out there, and you just don't do that.

00:53:00.000 - 00:53:12.000

So the next thing I knew-- Excuse me, what was the job? Well, it was kind of an administrative job. I ran the office. I did all the paperwork and money handling,

00:53:12.000 - 00:53:32.000

billing and collecting and paying bills and doing bank accounts and keeping records on the airplanes. It was just a wonderful job, just absolutely wonderful. But I got an invitation from the head of Standard Oil Company to come in for an interview for a job,

00:53:32.000 - 00:53:48.000

and I thought, "Oh." So I went in because, as I say, I was getting all this pressure, and here I'm offered this--it would have been a secretarial job. I can't type and take dictation.

00:53:48.000 - 00:54:06.000

But anyway, I went in, tears streaming down my face because I said, "Well, I just can't." And the fellow I worked for, Badgett, said, "Oh, hell, Maggie, if it's money, you know, you can take what you want." So money didn't mean anything to him. I said, "Thanks, I have been."

00:54:06.000 - 00:54:20.000

And anyway, I ended up turning--I just couldn't stand going to that office. At 8 o'clock every morning you went to work. At 10 o'clock you had a coffee break. At 12 o'clock you went to lunch.

00:54:20.000 - 00:54:35.000

Where I am, sometimes I went to work at 8, and sometimes it was 6, and sometimes it was 10. And I was flying. So flying was a perk that you got. Yeah, yeah.

00:54:35.000 - 00:54:54.000

I remember Badgett one day coming out, and I've forgotten how many cubs he had. He had maybe seven or--I don't remember. I really don't. But he also had three Ryans, and he had a Vega, a little trainer plane Vega,

00:54:54.000 - 00:55:15.000

and he had a--oh, what is it?--Stinson Voyager and Stinson Reliant, and he wanted a plane, and everybody was up flying. I mean, all of his students, his instructors, there were no planes, and he dictated a memo to say, you know, the terms under which they could use these planes.

00:55:15.000 - 00:55:30.000

He was tired of not having one for himself. And he turned to me and he said, "That doesn't apply to you." So he--well, I didn't take advantage of it, so that meant--so I could fly. But they had what they called a cross-country program.

00:55:30.000 - 00:55:48.000

It was also under the CPT, government program. And they had three students, and the instructor went on these cross-country flights, like to Dallas and Houston and back or whatever. And I frequently went with them just as a sandbagger, you know, just for the ride,

00:55:48.000 - 00:56:09.000

which gave me a little interest in it, so that was another fringe benefit. And we--as I say, it was just a great place to be. There was always, always something going on there, always. And when Pearl Harbor happened, did that change that program at all?

00:56:09.000 - 00:56:30.000

It didn't change the program so much as it speeded it up in a way. And then they had what they called a program called War Training Service. It was a Navy program. I don't remember the details of them, but I know that it was someone that was wanting to go in the Navy

00:56:30.000 - 00:56:47.000

and become a pilot. If they had this program and they washed out, then they knew they couldn't make it in the regular training program. And I don't--as I say, I don't really remember all the details there, but it did--it tightened up security.

00:56:47.000 - 00:57:10.000

We all had to go through being ID'd and that sort of thing. But it probably speeded up flight training for--under a different title, so to speak. As long as you stayed there, were you the only girl working for that? Well, not really.

00:57:10.000 - 00:57:30.000

It mushroomed, so we needed to get other help. In fact, one of my friends that had gone to Centenary that majored in ping pong and I had conned into taking accounting, she came out and she worked there for, oh, years, even after I'd left, and ended up marrying one of the fellows.

00:57:30.000 - 00:57:48.000

And we had two or three girls. The Army, we had contracts to overhaul aircraft engines. In fact, a lot that we flew at Sweetwater had been overhauled by Bajik. I know I looked up at the Stearman one day and saw "overhauled" and I patted it and I said,

00:57:48.000 - 00:58:04.000

"I know that you're safe to go in because I know what they went through." And they had a group of five from the Army. Part of them were women and part men. I don't remember the ratio.

00:58:04.000 - 00:58:21.000

I think there were two men and three women assigned there to do office work and keep up on the overhaul of the engines because I played a dirty trick on them once and had created havoc. Why don't you tell us about that?

00:58:21.000 - 00:58:43.000

Well, I'm great at playing jokes, and that was one of my better jokes. They were all complaining one day about having to work at night, and I thought, "Ha! This has all sorts of possibilities." So I called out and pretended that I was Western Union calling in a telegram

00:58:43.000 - 00:59:04.000

because they used to get their message through Western Union or Postal Telegraph or the Air Force. It was Barksdale Field there. And I just took--it is tough working tonight, but I broke it down. I said I-T-I-S-O-U-G-H-W-O, you know, and "King" came out, "King."

00:59:04.000 - 00:59:19.000

Anyway, the next morning as I was going into the office, I met the captain in charge, and I said, "Oh, where are you going so early, Captain?" He said, "Oh," he says, "you know, we got this telegram in last night, and nobody can decipher it."

00:59:19.000 - 00:59:43.000

And he says, "I'm going over to Barksdale to see if they can help me." And I thought, "Oh, no, I could see Margaret getting hauled in for something anyway." So I suggested that we have a cup of coffee in the nearby coffee shop, and we chitchatted. I looked at the message, and I finally had to confess.

00:59:43.000 - 00:59:59.000

I said, "Captain"--I think it was Freeman. I can't tell you, but--and so he just cracked up when he saw-- because apparently they'd gotten in--when they was called in, whoever took it down asked someone to interpret it, and they'd gotten an argument.

00:59:59.000 - 01:00:16.000

They said, "Well, you must have gotten the wrong telegraph company. Call them back." So, of course, they couldn't get anybody at Western Union that said they'd sent a message like that. "Well, it must have been postal." Well, they tried postal. So then they tried Barksdale. Nobody had it.

01:00:16.000 - 01:00:36.000

So he was going over to see if they couldn't possibly get it deciphered. But that was so fun. We had lots of that going on there, though, at the airport. We worked hard, but we had lots of fun with jokes and games and things like that.

01:00:36.000 - 01:00:56.000

Do you recall when and how you heard about the WASP training program? Well, I wish I had it. I think I got a letter--that's my recollection--in early '43, asking if I was interested. And then one of Cochran's representatives came through Shreveport and interviewed me.

01:00:56.000 - 01:01:14.000

And I was interested, but I just hated to leave my fun job. And she had said there, "Well, you'll live with five other girls." I thought, "Oh, five other women, all of us crammed up in one little room? That's just going to be more than I can take."

01:01:14.000 - 01:01:34.000

And it's not that I don't like women, but I mean just the logistics of being in a little room like that. So I delayed going in, but I well remember her coming, and I don't remember who it was. I have no record. I lost a lot of my records or threw them away. Do you recall that physical?

01:01:34.000 - 01:01:45.000

Hmm? Do you recall the physical? Oh, I well recall the physical, because I went through Barksdale Field, and there were about twenty or twenty-five cadets going through with me.

01:01:45.000 - 01:02:06.000

And so it was quite interesting to--suddenly they'd switch signs--male, female, or woman or man or girl or whatever-- on the doors of the different rooms to go in. And we all went through together. So I remember that glorious day.

01:02:06.000 - 01:02:27.000

And then when you received--how did you receive a message to report? I don't remember how. It must have been a telegram or something, because I don't remember how I got the message other than I was told to report on October 3rd, left Shreveport by train.

01:02:27.000 - 01:02:53.000

Do you recall how your aunt and uncle felt? Very sad. My aunt just--well, as I said, they both--they finally came around. Well, she was in your class, Mickey Carmichael. Well, what happened for my uncle finally accepted my going into the WASC?

01:02:53.000 - 01:03:11.000

I sent him a picture, which went into the bottom drawer of his desk. This is a story I get from his secretary. And that's buried. But it turned out that Mickey's father was a good business friend of my uncle's, and I didn't know this at all.

01:03:11.000 - 01:03:28.000

But Mr. Carmichael used to come in my uncle's office, and he'd say, "Well, you know, Mickey soloed today. Mickey did this. Mickey did that." Every time he'd come, Mickey had done something else. My uncle had, I guess, great respect for Mr. Carmichael,

01:03:28.000 - 01:03:47.000

so my--Miss Maude, my uncle's secretary, said, "Your picture'd come out of one drawer and get up into the next." It finally ended up on his desk. He accepted the fact, and then he was convinced it was a good thing and was very happy.

01:03:47.000 - 01:04:09.000

When I graduated, he gave me a big open house party and invited all of our friends and that. But prior to that, thank goodness for Mickey. So you went out to Sweetwater on the train. What do you remember about arriving in Sweetwater or arriving at Avenger Field?

01:04:09.000 - 01:04:37.000

Well, I don't remember an awful lot about the actual arriving. I remember lining up, which they had us line up in alphabetical order. I remember one girl that was just behind me going into Sweetwater. We were all dressed up in our suits and high-heeled shoes and looking first class.

01:04:37.000 - 01:04:53.000

And we looked at the trainees there, and they would be draggled. Their hair was stringing. They had these zoot suits on, and I remember Betty turning to me and saying, "Well, I'm not going to let myself go like that."

01:04:53.000 - 01:05:11.000

And I agreed with her, "Well, I'm not either. I mean, I'm going to keep my hair combed and my lipstick on and all this good stuff." About a week later, we were sitting in the mess hall and looked at each other and started laughing. I'm not sure who looked the worst, Betty or me.

01:05:11.000 - 01:05:29.000

By then, our faces are peeling from the wind and sunburn. And we had let ourselves go. We were past that, not letting ourselves go. But I remember that very vividly.

01:05:29.000 - 01:05:43.000

What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make? Oh, dear. Was it living with those five other girls? No, it wasn't, because they all felt the same as I did.

01:05:43.000 - 01:06:04.000

After we got acquainted, we found out we all felt the same way. We weren't sure we wanted to live with five other girls. I just look back at the girls that I've roomed with were just wonderful. We just had the greatest group and had the most fun and played jokes.

01:06:04.000 - 01:06:18.000

Well, we had quite a few interesting jokes there. Well, I've kept up with—well, they're deceased now. That's the trouble. Ruth Thatcher was just a great gal.

01:06:18.000 - 01:06:32.000

She and I got along real well together. Was she in your bay? She was in our shared room with me. And, well, our friendship ended a few years ago.

01:06:32.000 - 01:06:47.000

I guess it's been about six years ago she died. And Lois Bristol is out here. Have you got her on your list? She quit very shortly, I think, after graduating.

01:06:47.000 - 01:07:04.000

She was a very young girl, very immature. Margaret, just tell me anything about training that you would like to have recorded. Well, I had wonderful instructors. That's why I'm here.

01:07:04.000 - 01:07:19.000

My first instructor I had problems with. He was from New Jersey, and I felt that he rode controls and that he wasn't a very good instructor for me. Fortunately, Julie Jenner came—I don't know if Julie Jenner is—

01:07:19.000 - 01:07:32.000

came to me one day and said, "Margaret, I've got this old Texan as an instructor." And says, "I don't understand him." She said, "Would you consider training with me?" Well, I leaped at the opportunity.

01:07:32.000 - 01:07:49.000

I could hardly wait to get in and effect the deal. So I had Rigdon Edwards, and he was a great instructor. I think we were his first class. But he was so conscientious, and he used to say that he wasn't going to let us solo

01:07:49.000 - 01:08:08.000

until he felt that he could put his little girls in the back and let them go up with us. And so he got me through primary. And then I had a—I think his first name was John Hite for instrument. And then I went to—no, I didn't have him for instruments.

01:08:08.000 - 01:08:29.000

I had him for transition for the—oh, when we learned the AT-6. And then I had John Hosier for instruments, and then I also had Hosier for— he was a great instrument instructor. I remember—in fact, I've got a picture to send him.

01:08:29.000 - 01:08:50.000

He said he had instructed cadets, and he said when he first took a look at the three of us that were assigned to him for instrument flying, he said, "Every class looks dumber, and this is the dumbest-looking class I've ever had." He said there was one girl standing there and said,

01:08:50.000 - 01:09:00.000

"Well, I'm going to give him a thing or two. He's not going to teach me very much," or something like that. She knows it all. That was my friend Ruth.

01:09:00.000 - 01:09:11.000

And the other was little Betty Chambers. She said, "Here's this dizzy blonde that doesn't even know whether she's up or down. And then there's this other one that's half asleep and doesn't even know where she is." And that was supposed to be me.

01:09:11.000 - 01:09:35.000

He said we turned out to be the best class he'd had, and I think we were a good class. We worked hard, and we gave him a rough time because he was always telling us about his cadets. And so we arranged, since his cadets did this and his cadets did that, when he would come out of the room, you know, to have them meet you at the plane or go into the plane,

01:09:35.000 - 01:09:45.000

we'd all meet him and say, "Oh, sir, let me have your cushion. Oh, sir, that's too heavy for you to carry. Oh, sir." We sirred him to death.

01:09:45.000 - 01:10:05.000

And anyway, he was a great instructor. And same way, then we got him for cross-country or the final phase. And that was kind of exciting because I have no problem with navigating. I mean, I know up from down and right from left.

01:10:05.000 - 01:10:21.000

We did a few things that weren't in the book. One day, for instance, he came in and said, "Well, come on. We're going to see how high this AT-6 will go today instead of flying to wherever we were supposed to fly, Dallas, Fort Worth, or someplace."

01:10:21.000 - 01:10:37.000

So we got in the plane, and we started. As we were approaching 18,000 feet, I was sitting there saying, "Is it men that can do without oxygen longer than men, or is it women that can do without oxygen the longest?"

01:10:37.000 - 01:10:59.000

I knew that one of us could, but I wasn't sure which one, whether it was male or female. Until about that time, he says, "I think we'd better go back down." In later years, when I've seen him, he said, "That was the dumbest thing I ever in my life did." He said, "That was so stupid to take off and go up like that without."

01:10:59.000 - 01:11:20.000

I had another time with him in instrument flying when we were up doing maneuvers, and I started to smell smoke. I picked up the intercom, and I said, "Sir, that little box under your seat is smoking." I didn't know. I thought it was just smoking.

01:11:20.000 - 01:11:36.000

He immediately says, "Get the seat up. Get the hood back." He was screaming and yelling to the tower for emergency landing and all that sort of thing. I thought, "Well, it's only smoking. It's not burning." Dumb me.

01:11:36.000 - 01:12:00.000

He said later that he was really concerned that it might blaze up. He was debating over whether he'd have me jump or not. I said, "Well, you were just debating, because there's no way I'd be leaving that plane." As long as it's got two wings on it and the engine turning, no way I would have gone down.

01:12:00.000 - 01:12:33.000

But when we landed, he yelled, "Get the hell out. Get the hell out." Fortunately, the radio had shorted or something and was causing a little smoke or blaze. We had some interesting experiences with Mr.— He used to—well, as I say, we did a little bit of dogfighting with his buddy Tischler.

01:12:33.000 - 01:12:45.000

Did you ever have Tischler? Oh, he is a character. Were you ever afraid? Not really. I think I'm too stupid to be afraid.

01:12:45.000 - 01:13:08.000

When the chips are down— When I was in Shreveport at the flying school, when I was ready to go into the WAS, someone put a notice on the board that they didn't want their Maggie flunking out and washing out. And would each instructor give her some flight time, check her out.

01:13:08.000 - 01:13:37.000

So I had been on two or three flights, and then I went with this one instructor, and we went up. One of the fun things you did at Shreveport was, because there was a river all around three sides, so if you took off either north or south, if you took off north, you'd dip down and go down on the riverbank and just fly above the water and then come out someplace back up there and do your thing.

01:13:37.000 - 01:13:59.000

So Gilly and I, when we were coming back in, I looked down on the riverbank and I said, "Gilly, what are all those ambulances and fire trucks doing down there, do you suppose?" Gilly says, "Oh, I don't know," he says, "what they could be." So we landed, and when we landed we were greeted, and I mean greeted because the tower had seen us go down

01:13:59.000 - 01:14:24.000

and they thought we had crashed. They were looking for our little bodies. And our story was that Gilly had given me a simulated landing on the takeoff, and if that stupid tower hadn't seen us come up, it wasn't our fault.

01:14:24.000 - 01:14:47.000

I mean, there's no way that we hadn't come up, I mean, obviously, and it was just their fault. It wasn't ours, but the supervisor who had been shutting the government by this time had pretty much taken over all the planes, and he had let me go up, you know, didn't worry. But he decided, he says, "Margaret, I believe you, but I think it'd be best that you stay out of the planes

01:14:47.000 - 01:15:00.000

till you get to Sweetwater." So we had some fun times. Did any of your bay mates wash out? Several did.

01:15:00.000 - 01:15:23.000

How did that make you feel? Well, it made you really nervous. I mean, one or two we could understand, but we had several, because I think 48 percent or something like that of our class washed out, and it was terribly sad, too, for some of them to wash out.

01:15:23.000 - 01:15:40.000

You'd think they would, for the grace of luck, go away. I felt that. I felt very fortunate, as they say, making it through. How was your training different from the training the cadets were getting? I don't think it was very different, really.

01:15:40.000 - 01:15:54.000

I think they got more, what am I trying to say, aerial-- Aerobatics. Aerobatics, aerial maneuvering, but I think basically it was about, at least from the ones I've talked to, it's about the same.

01:15:54.000 - 01:16:21.000

What was your understanding of the importance of that program, of the WASP program? What were they going to do after they graduated? Well, I understood that the idea, the whole idea of the program was that we would relieve men for combat, for military combat, where if we could tow targets or instruct instruments or ferry planes,

01:16:21.000 - 01:16:45.000

that would relieve the men to go into actual combat. That was my understanding of it, so that you could do almost anything. Do you recall your expectations as far as becoming militarized? No, because there was a lot of talk about militarization, but a lot of us weren't particularly pushing it.

01:16:45.000 - 01:17:02.000

I mean, some of the girls really weren't pushing it. I liked the idea we could quit and go home and go about your business and do whatever, you know, if you got washed out. Not that you wanted to get washed out, but that was something that you had.

01:17:02.000 - 01:17:19.000

I don't--I never felt one way or the other. If we were militarized, fine; if we're not, fine. I realized in retrospect that there had been a lot of nice things about it, but that's the way it was as far as I'm concerned.

01:17:19.000 - 01:17:37.000

How long was your training program? Well, we entered on October 3rd and graduate April, I think, 15th. So it was all that time. We had, of course, a lot of bad weather during the winter, which slowed us down somewhat.

01:17:37.000 - 01:17:53.000

And how was that program in phases? What different phases did you go through? Well, we had primary, and unfortunately I don't have my logbooks. I sent them back to Denton.

01:17:53.000 - 01:18:15.000

We had the primary phase, and that was in the stearman. Then we had--I think it was 35 hours that we went into flying the AT-6. And then from that we went back to instruments, and I think that was about 35 hours. That's 70, 100.

01:18:15.000 - 01:18:41.000

And then from instruments we went into transition, and that was, what, 75 hours, something like that? I think it was about that, maybe 70 and 70 and 140. That would make the base--the primary phase about 60 hours. Transition, 35. Instruments, 35. And 70 for the transition.

01:18:41.000 - 01:18:55.000

I think that's about the way it worked, something like that. It might be about 70 for each phase. So you ended up with 210. About that, something like that. So it was about 70 hours in each phase.

01:18:55.000 - 01:19:13.000

Well, there wasn't 70 hours in instruments. It was about 35. But that was called basic, and the two parts put together would be 70? Well, if you put your instruments and your trans--that would be 70. And then, yeah, yeah.

01:19:13.000 - 01:19:33.000

Do you recall cross-countries? Did anything unusual happen on a cross-country? No, nothing really unusual. My long cross-country, there again, it was--nothing unusual happened. We ended up spending the night in, I think, Little Rock.

01:19:33.000 - 01:19:52.000

And my next-door neighbor in Shreveport happened to be in Little Rock. And my aunt was talking to his wife and said, "Well, Margaret's in Little Rock tonight. I wish--" What was his name? I've forgotten. "--had known that she was up there, they could have gotten together."

01:19:52.000 - 01:20:09.000

Well, little did they know that we had accidentally run into each other. And he took all of us out for dinner and had a wonderful time. We had a glorious celebration at his expense. He was so happy to meet all these women pilots and the men that we had picked up at that time

01:20:09.000 - 01:20:23.000

that he threw us a really great party. So that's the only unusual thing that happened. We all got home. Well, I kidded about getting lost.

01:20:23.000 - 01:20:37.000

I said, "I'm going to get off course and go to Shreveport." And everybody said, "You'd better not." One of the girls did get lost and ended up in Shreveport. If I had done it, they would have washed me out probably.

01:20:37.000 - 01:20:46.000

But, gee, we went from, I think, Little Rock to Greenfield. Is it Greenfield, Texas? Isn't there a green-- Greenfield.

01:20:46.000 - 01:20:59.000

Greenfield, Texas? Yeah, that was our stop from Little Rock to Greenfield. I don't remember where. While you were in training, did you have some time off?

01:20:59.000 - 01:21:09.000

And if so, what did you do with that time? We didn't have much time off. We had weekends that we could-- One weekend, we had a long weekend, and we went to Dallas.

01:21:09.000 - 01:21:19.000

Nothing much happened there. Exciting. Most of the time, we just stayed around Sweetwater. There wasn't anything to do there.

01:21:19.000 - 01:21:31.000

Sometimes we went out to the lake. That's about it. Did shopping. Always had a big steak dinner in town, Craddock's Steakhouse.

01:21:31.000 - 01:21:45.000

I remember that. They made the most wonderful French fried onion rings I've ever eaten. It was such a fun thing. I know you were there during Christmas.

01:21:45.000 - 01:21:54.000

Was there anything special? No, some of the local people invited us. I've forgotten. Our plans got mixed up, I remember.

01:21:54.000 - 01:22:08.000

We were planning to get back-- have enough time to get off to get to Shreveport. And then the weather turned bad or something, and we didn't make it. So we were kind of stranded with--

01:22:08.000 - 01:22:25.000

I don't know, I think there were some fellows from one of the air bases that we all joined up with, commiserated with being not home for Christmas. Okay, I'm going to change tapes. How are you doing?

01:22:25.000 - 01:22:29.000

I'm doing fine. Good. Am I out of-- No, you're not.

01:22:29.000 - 01:22:38.000

No, you're doing great. And I had thought--I forgot to mention to you in the beginning, just forget that I know anything. Just go ahead.

01:22:38.000 - 01:22:52.000

But I-- It was where you park your--I was showing it to one of the fellows yesterday. Okay. I couldn't remember all that stuff now.

01:22:52.000 - 01:23:03.000

No way. No way I could remember it. Tell me about your bay mates. Tell me about them?

01:23:03.000 - 01:23:08.000

Mm-hmm. Oh, well-- Have you stayed friends with-- Well, I've stayed friends.

01:23:08.000 - 01:23:17.000

Let's see. Mickey is deceased. She was one of my bay mates. Virgie Bryant, she's deceased.

01:23:17.000 - 01:23:25.000

Ruth Thatcher's deceased. That's three. Now, let's see. I'm trying to think who else.

01:23:25.000 - 01:23:32.000

Lois Bristol's here. There were six of us, wasn't there? I've got one to go. Three, four.

01:23:32.000 - 01:23:58.000

Let's see. Mickey, Virgie, Ruth, Lois, me, five, and there's someone else. Now, I'm not sure who that was. Of all the things that you did while you were in training, what did you enjoy the most?

01:23:58.000 - 01:24:11.000

Well, it sounds--you mean outside of flying? Mm-hmm, because I know flying would be your first choice. Mm-hmm. I don't know.

01:24:11.000 - 01:24:53.000

I guess it was just buddying with my Ruth and Mickey and Lois and all the bay mates. I mean, we'd have picnics or midnight snacks, and one night--I don't know whether some of this should be repeated or not-- but Ruth wanted to spend the night out because her future husband was coming through town. And by that time, we'd been divided, so I was no longer in her bay.

01:24:53.000 - 01:25:15.000

And you remember--well, that's right, she don't know anything. [Laughter] Best line of the day. Anyway, we had two rooms that were separated by a latrine, and the two rooms were called a bay.

01:25:15.000 - 01:25:31.000

Oh, is it not bay? Was it bay? Anyway, Ruth wanted to spend the night out, so she was in one room and I was in the other. And for quite a few days before the time she wanted to go out,

01:25:31.000 - 01:25:50.000

I practiced to see if I could get out of my bed and run through the latrine and hop in her bed before the bed checkers came by, because every night we had a bed checker that flashed a flashlight in the window or in the door of our room, then shut it and went and flashed the flashlight in the next room.

01:25:50.000 - 01:26:05.000

And so I was seeing if I could make it before they did it. I could never quite make it. I just knew I'd be caught. So we ended up padding her bed with our winter flying suit.

01:26:05.000 - 01:26:26.000

It worked out beautifully, no questions asked. But we had quite a few little escapades. One day, I don't know whether she remembers it, well, I know she remembers it, but we got word that we were going to have an inspection,

01:26:26.000 - 01:26:44.000

so everybody was cleaning their, you know, making up their beds and dusting. And Julie Jenner had a quart of scotch. She grabbed and picked it up and dropped it. So we were all scrounging around, mopping with toilet paper and everything else,

01:26:44.000 - 01:26:59.000

trying to get the glass and the bottles up, and someone got the bright idea to put a match to it. Solved our problem. I mean, the scotch burned off beautifully, and we got the glass up.

01:26:59.000 - 01:27:20.000

And there was an odor, but nobody could find the scotch, so there was no problem. But those are little things that kept us occupied in our free time. While you were in training, did Miss Cochran visit the field? She came two or three times.

01:27:20.000 - 01:27:35.000

I don't remember particularly meeting her. I just remember her being there and coming by and always wanted us to sing. She liked to hear us march and sing, and we liked to march and sing. Do you recall some of those songs?

01:27:35.000 - 01:27:54.000

Oh, well, yes, I do, some of them. I shouldn't bring that one, though. I won't sing that. "Zoot Suits and Parachutes," and "I'm Going Back to Where I Come From,"

01:27:54.000 - 01:28:16.000

and "Rugged but Right," and some of them. During the time you were in training, did you get a new uniform and describe that? No. When we were graduating, we finally got a uniform, but prior to that,

01:28:16.000 - 01:28:39.000

we had nothing but those little khaki pants and white shirts and sailor hats or whatever they're called. The zoot suits were wonderful because they were so big that you could carry anything in them if you tied your ankles to keep them from falling off.

01:28:39.000 - 01:28:53.000

But you were the first class then to get an official uniform. I don't know. I thought Class II did. W-II, but maybe not. I know they were coming out about the time.

01:28:53.000 - 01:29:15.000

I was hard to fit, so I had a time with getting all the uniform, but I did. They were nice uniforms. Do you remember who came to do the fitting for the girls for those uniforms? Who did what?

01:29:15.000 - 01:29:29.000

Who came over to fit the uniforms? No, I don't. I don't. There was supposed to be some store, but I don't remember whether it was Neiman Marcus in Dallas or not. It could have been.

01:29:29.000 - 01:29:54.000

In preparation for your graduation, were you given a choice of where you would be assigned? We filled out a form that gave three choices, and I didn't want to go anyplace but Dallas, so I put Dallas, Dallas, Dallas, and I got Dallas. For the graduation itself, did your aunt and uncle come?

01:29:54.000 - 01:30:18.000

No, I had no family there. It was inconvenient, and it worked out fine. For some reason, our friend, Mrs. Deaton, didn't—I'm still trying to remember what it was that I crossed her trail on, and she really got it in for me.

01:30:18.000 - 01:30:44.000

I know she said that—threatened me by saying she was going to see that I didn't get stationed where I wanted to go. I asked my instructor about it, and he said, "She doesn't have anything to do with where you're sent, so don't worry about it." Apparently, she didn't, because I got where I wanted to go. To this day, I cannot remember what it was, but there was something that upset her that I did.

01:30:44.000 - 01:31:08.000

Maybe a little practical joke? Probably. It could have been, but I don't remember. I wish I could remember. Tell me about your graduation. Well, it was, as I recall, just a beautiful day, and everybody was gloriously happy.

01:31:08.000 - 01:31:29.000

I don't remember too much about the speaker, and I really don't remember a lot about it. I just remember what a nice day it was. Is there anything else about the training that you would like to talk about that I've left out? Well, I don't really think anything, because—

01:31:29.000 - 01:31:51.000

Ground school? What was easy for you in ground school? Well, what was hard for me was code. I mean, that was just miserable. I kept dropping back from—if you learned it, you could leave the class. You didn't have to stay once you'd mastered it.

01:31:51.000 - 01:32:09.000

But if you didn't, then you'd drop back to the new incoming class, and you kept dropping back. And I know when I dropped back about four or five classes, one of the girls said to me one day, "Well, what are you doing in here if you're in class 40?" I said, "Well, this is the way I get acquainted with all the new incoming students."

01:32:09.000 - 01:32:22.000

Because it was terrible. And here I am, a top instrument instructor and student, and I can't learn. I have trouble with code. It didn't make sense, but I did.

01:32:22.000 - 01:32:42.000

I just never will forget that. I remember once in engines, when we were studying that, we had some fellow crash land— well, he didn't crash land, but he emergency landed on the field, and all of us jumped up and ran out, left the instructor sitting there.

01:32:42.000 - 01:33:00.000

And as we came back in, someone said, "Well, I learned a lot from that." He laughed. He said, "Now, just what did you learn from talking to that pilot?" But I remember that. What was Mr. Christopher?

01:33:00.000 - 01:33:13.000

He taught instruments. I remember him well. He was quite a character. Do you remember any— I don't remember learning much in anything.

01:33:13.000 - 01:33:45.000

Were there any of the trainees killed that you recall while you were there? A girl, Mary Housen, I think was her name, was killed in '44, while we were there. I remember that. It was an upsetting experience. A girl was killed in '44, too, I think.

01:33:45.000 - 01:34:02.000

What was her name? I think she was on her cross-country flight, the thousand-mile— and they went to California, because some of them went to California and some of them went east. And I think she was killed.

01:34:02.000 - 01:34:18.000

She got lost or something and crushed, two of them. In the meantime, while you were in training, were you aware of what the girls were doing that had graduated before you? What they were doing?

01:34:18.000 - 01:34:39.000

More or less, I had an idea of what some of them were doing. I didn't want to do what some of them were doing, and that's why I opted for Dallas. I thought, "Well, I won't have to tow targets, and I won't have to do instrument— or not instrument, but engineering test flight."

01:34:39.000 - 01:34:56.000

I didn't think those sounded like very interesting flights. When you graduated, did you get some time off? I had about, I think, a week or ten—excuse me—ten-day— Leave time?

01:34:56.000 - 01:35:12.000

Leave, leave time. And what did you do? And I went back to Shreveport, and as I say, that's when my uncle relented and gave me a terrific party, and I enjoyed seeing all my friends who didn't fly and weren't interested in flying.

01:35:12.000 - 01:35:26.000

I had been friendly with a group of about eight girls, and they were always saying, "Oh, Margaret, let's do something exciting. Go find out about this." In fact, one of them lives here now.

01:35:26.000 - 01:35:38.000

And as Martha says, "You come back and find out all these things we can do." And then they'd all drop by the wayside. They wouldn't be interested. But I saw all of them.

01:35:38.000 - 01:35:49.000

They were a nice group. And I'd say, "Oh, I found this. We can get in the WASP." "Oh, well, I've got a broken leg," or something else.

01:35:49.000 - 01:36:00.000

There'd be a reason why they couldn't join me. Same. So, yeah, I then went back to Dallas. For this party, did you wear your new uniform?

01:36:00.000 - 01:36:16.000

Oh, yes. I wore it everywhere, just about. It's interesting to wear a uniform. Also, I don't think it was that time, but I was up in Oklahoma once with my uniform.

01:36:16.000 - 01:36:32.000

And we wanted to get served in a restaurant, and they were about to close. And finally, the cook came out and said, "If I'd come back and show all of them my uniform, he would cook dinner for us." So that worked fine.

01:36:32.000 - 01:36:50.000

I was curious about these weird women. When you got to Dallas, to whom did you report? Well, I reported to the WASP, and I don't remember who was in charge there at the time. There were probably about ninety WASPs there.

01:36:50.000 - 01:37:13.000

And that's where I met Lorraine Zillner and Yvonne Stafford. And we tried to get on the same flights, because we enjoyed each other. And we flew well together, because when we got ready to land at an airport, we didn't have to look all over the sky for the others.

01:37:13.000 - 01:37:24.000

We'd all be right there together, ready to go in, which was nice, because we flew a lot of stearmen, which didn't help. What was your primary assignment at LOVE? My what?

01:37:24.000 - 01:37:37.000

What was your assignment, primary assignment? Well, it was for ferry work. And, of course, I arrived at Dallas, you know, this hot shot pilot, just freshly graduated, I'm really going to set the world on fire.

01:37:37.000 - 01:38:00.000

And I got orders to go to Waco, Texas, pick up a J-3 Cub, and take it to Rome, New York. Now, that's a fur piece, and a Cub that's about to fall apart anyhow. There were three other girls with me, yeah, three other. One of them who was from Wilmington--well, they were all from Wilmington.

01:38:00.000 - 01:38:13.000

But this was Madge Gray. She was supposed to be my flight leader, and you weren't supposed to be out on a flight without a leader for your first three flights. It was just not the thing to do.

01:38:13.000 - 01:38:26.000

So anyhow, we did very well. We got as far as Dayton. In the meantime, two of the girls' planes had been grounded because pieces were falling apart. They were kind of beat-up planes.

01:38:26.000 - 01:38:44.000

About ten or twelve fellows had gone to Lawton and picked up planes to do the same thing. They were headed for Rome, New York. And we got in Dayton, and Marge was called home. And that left me stranded in Dayton with no flight leader and by myself,

01:38:44.000 - 01:39:00.000

and not to go on without a flight leader. They're going to send someone, and this goes on for I don't know how many days, three or four anyhow, at least. So I finally got permission to go on on my own and get rid of that little cub.

01:39:00.000 - 01:39:15.000

And I hit Rome, New York, and I went back to Syracuse to get on the plane, and here are these fellows. They had had girlfriends in Cincinnati, so they had engine trouble and plane trouble and I don't know what all.

01:39:15.000 - 01:39:31.000

The money was running out, so they had to get on. So that was the first thing they asked me, "Do I have any money?" Well, I didn't have very much, I'm sure, because I was out longer, and we didn't have credit cards in those days or ATMs.

01:39:31.000 - 01:39:58.000

And anyway, we got on the plane and flew back to Dallas. Well, the upshot of that is that in 1947 I was getting on an elevator in New York City to go to my room, and the next thing you know I'm over the shoulders of some character, flopping my legs and arms and wondering what's going on.

01:39:58.000 - 01:40:16.000

He marches me into the bar and sits me down at a table and says, "There's one of them." Well, here is the fellow that I'd come back from that trip with. And he had been talking to these fellows at the bar, telling them he had flown with women and they told him he was a liar and they didn't believe him and all this sort of stuff,

01:40:16.000 - 01:40:41.000

that he just had one too many, and here he found me. And he was so happy that he sat me down and explained that she'll verify it. So that was an interesting flight. But eventually, I don't think I ever had, I don't know whether I ever got a flight leader or not after that.

01:40:41.000 - 01:40:57.000

Because generally, as I say, I flew a lot of planes to California, a lot of stearmen, and then I was transferred out. I don't remember how many months I was there, two or three. I really don't remember.

01:40:57.000 - 01:41:08.000

And while you were at Lafayette, where did you live? We lived in barracks. We had nice barracks. We each had our own room.

01:41:08.000 - 01:41:25.000

It was a big two-story building with a hall way down the center, and both floors and rooms of little cells, but they were your own private little bailiwick, and it was nice. And when you would go on these ferry trips, Margaret,

01:41:25.000 - 01:41:43.000

would there also be male pilots on most of them with you that flew the same thing? Well, sometimes. Generally, we were--as I say, I met these two girls, and we liked to be together, and we flew well together, and so we tried to always get our trips lined up

01:41:43.000 - 01:41:58.000

so there were just the three of them. We often met, saw the men on other flights that were doing the same thing, and sometimes I remember going to--I think it was San Antonio. Anyway, we were shuttling planes from one field someplace down there,

01:41:58.000 - 01:42:21.000

and there were men on it because one of them ended up in our room. We argued that he shouldn't be in there, and he had registered--he was a flight officer, and he registered F-slant O, and they thought his name was Flo, so the motel had scheduled him in to share the room with several of us.

01:42:21.000 - 01:42:42.000

Well, of course he didn't, but that was the mix-up anyway. But, yeah, there were sometimes, but generally-- and sometimes you were by yourself, not often, but occasionally. And then you were transferred where?

01:42:42.000 - 01:42:59.000

Well, I was sent back to Sweetwater for advanced instrument flying, and then I was--was I sent there first? I could have been sent to Eagle Pass, Texas to tow targets, and I was only there for about a week,

01:42:59.000 - 01:43:16.000

and then I guess I was sent from there to Sweetwater for advanced instrument training. And then from there I went to Perrin Field. When you went to instrument training, were there still WASP trainees on the base? Mm-hmm.

01:43:16.000 - 01:43:30.000

How long did that training last? I suppose about three or four weeks, I think. I don't think it lasted any longer than that. And I really--I was wondering the other day how long I was there.

01:43:30.000 - 01:43:46.000

Well, just because I don't remember. Someplace I've got there, but it's in Dallas. But before you went to instrument training, you went to Texas? I think I was sent to--I was--

01:43:46.000 - 01:44:00.000

and I think it was before I went to instrument training that I went to Eagle Pass. They checked me out to tow targets, but I never had to tow targets because they sent me then to Sweetwater. And then from Sweetwater I went to Perrin Field.

01:44:00.000 - 01:44:13.000

And what was your assignment then at Perrin? That was to instruct instrument flying. I had the officers that had to get their green card. And I loved instrument flying.

01:44:13.000 - 01:44:29.000

That was my favorite job. I mean, I enjoyed instrument. I like games and playing things, and that was just sort of like when you work out this problem, I hope that you hit the field when you get through.

01:44:29.000 - 01:44:44.000

When you went to Perrin, were there already some WASPs there? There were already some WASPs there. Let's see, I think I checked in with--Dorothy Hirschnick and I checked in together. And I don't know what her--they did various things at Perrin,

01:44:44.000 - 01:44:55.000

so not all the girls instructed instruments. And there were--I don't remember, but three or four of us instructing instruments, but there could have been more. I just overlooked them.

01:44:55.000 - 01:45:08.000

Once you got to Perrin, what was your social life like? Oh, it was glorious. Perrin Field was just another badget flying school. It was just a wonderful--they liked us there.

01:45:08.000 - 01:45:18.000

The men treated us wonderfully. Well, they didn't like doing what we were doing. Men don't like instrument flying or teaching it, and they don't like towing targets.

01:45:18.000 - 01:45:38.000

Well, we didn't tow targets, but they didn't like the slow time and check engineering flights, so they were all really nice to us. And we spent most of our social life on the base, although I met one of-- well, one of my students--I shouldn't say I met him, but he and one of his buddies--

01:45:38.000 - 01:45:56.000

well, he was dating a girl from town, and he wanted to take me in to meet her. And I couldn't be a WASP because she hated WASPs, so I had to go in as a civilian and act like I never had heard of an airplane. And we became very good friends.

01:45:56.000 - 01:46:12.000

I mean, she was a nice person, but she just didn't--I don't know. She had a bad taste from the WASPs. So we got along real well, and we used to go in town and pick her up and go someplace and eat and drink and dance or whatever.

01:46:12.000 - 01:46:29.000

These students that you were teaching, instruments, they were returned combat pilots? I don't know that any of them were combat pilots. They were just officers there that were probably going into combat. I mean, when they finished up.

01:46:29.000 - 01:46:47.000

Do you suppose that they had not had instruments in cadet training? Well, I don't know. They certainly were having a rough time understanding instruments. In fact, the commander of the instruments section, when I got two of them particularly,

01:46:47.000 - 01:47:07.000

the one that I went into town with and this other fellow, when they got past their test, because I went up into the barracks and walked the floor while they were taking their tests, when they got it, Captain Anoni said, "Margaret or Chamberlain?"

01:47:07.000 - 01:47:17.000

He called me Chamberlain. He said, "Chamberlain, if I could give you the Congressional Medal of Honor for getting them through, I would." So I don't know.

01:47:17.000 - 01:47:32.000

How long would you train? Would you have the same student every day, or would you change students? Well, you had them whenever they could fly. And then you just might have someone that wants to come and be checked out

01:47:32.000 - 01:48:00.000

or not necessarily needs a full course, but wants you to take him up and see what he's doing. And you'd just be available for those drop-ins. Otherwise, how many hours or how long would it take an officer to get an instrument rating? Gee, I really don't have any idea without looking at a log.

01:48:00.000 - 01:48:25.000

Well, this one fellow, I had so much trouble with him, and he had professed to have been in the Navy and being able to take code at 20-some words a minute. But, I mean, he just had a terrible time understanding dot, dash, or dit, da, or whatever. I mean, I just couldn't believe that he had ever learned code.

01:48:25.000 - 01:49:00.000

His buddy told him the way to find what we called in flying was a cone of silence. It's a place on the ground that when you fly over, all signals you seize, it's just temporary, it's completely silent. And his buddy told him to cut a little hole in the canopy so you can peer out and go up and make a mark on the ground someday so you can tell where you are.

01:49:00.000 - 01:49:27.000

Anything to pass the course. Well, it didn't work, but anyway, that's what he'd been told to do by one of his good coworkers. Where were you and how did you feel when you learned that WASP would be disbanded? I was at Perrin Field and it was a sad, sad feeling that you were going to leave all of this and have to go home.

01:49:27.000 - 01:49:46.000

It was really, yeah, I was at Perrin. I don't remember just when, but I do remember all of us commiserating and talking about it. Did the base do anything special for you when you were disbanded? They all cried.

01:49:46.000 - 01:50:09.000

Well, not exactly, but yes, they did. The commanding officer had a full review for us and we stood on the reviewing stand and then he let us pick any pilot and any plane to fly us home and I thought that was kind of nice. As I say, they really liked us there.

01:50:09.000 - 01:50:33.000

We did a good job and they were all nice to us. Well, in fact, two of the girls, three of the girls, I guess, married fellows that they met there. Madge Moore and Alice Rohr and who was the other girl? Well, anyway.

01:50:33.000 - 01:50:52.000

Why do you think the WASPs were disbanded? Well, I think one reason they were disbanded is that they had a lot of publicity against them. It was not fair. Drew Pearson, the columnist, got behind their cause.

01:50:52.000 - 01:51:19.000

Not the WASPs' cause, but the cause of the civilian pilots that were fighting us. Now, these civilian pilots, because of the programs like CPT and WTS and all those programs closing down because they're not needed anymore, the war is over, or practically so. I mean, it's on its downhill side. It's not over.

01:51:19.000 - 01:51:37.000

We're suddenly out of a job and they said they could do what the women were doing. Now, why let these women fly when here are we good, hale and hearty men that can do their job? Well, the worst part of it was they couldn't do our job. They didn't have our training.

01:51:37.000 - 01:52:02.000

Some of them had been instructors and done nothing but fly maybe a J-3 Cub. And they had not had Army flight training, but they had Drew Pearson back of them. And he was a real go-getter as far as winning their cause. And I had worked with these men, so I was kind of on both sides of the fence.

01:52:02.000 - 01:52:23.000

I knew what they were up. There in Shreveport, I wrote letters galore to get them exempt from the draft. I was an expert at getting them out of going into the draft because they were supposedly working in a strict government-needed agency.

01:52:23.000 - 01:52:40.000

And I know a couple of them were running plantations and they didn't want to leave their plantation to go off marching into the Army. So it was kind of a sad thing. I mean, I don't think it was a fair thing at all.

01:52:40.000 - 01:52:58.000

I think the WASP, you know, if they needed pilots, maybe they didn't really need us by that time either. And, of course, we knew we were going to be out when the war was over, or I think most of us assumed so.

01:52:58.000 - 01:53:23.000

We took advantage of a good thing and did our little bit that we could. But that's all I can say. I think that is why we were deactivated. - Right. When you left Perron, then where did you go?

01:53:23.000 - 01:53:40.000

- I went back to Shreveport. - Okay. And what did you do next? - Wrote letters all over the world trying to get into something. No, not--I mean, seriously, first I got my instructor's rating.

01:53:40.000 - 01:53:58.000

I thought--I went back to Bagehot and got that. And also I got a job, temporary, working for the same old Continental Supply Company because the store manager had always said

01:53:58.000 - 01:54:12.000

he'd never have a woman working for him. But the draft was taking his men, so he welcomed my coming down. I knew him, so he was very happy to have me come down. After I was there and worked for a couple of months,

01:54:12.000 - 01:54:27.000

he said he'd never have a man again because he liked having a woman. The salesman didn't come in and interrupt him, and he got a lot of work done, and he was just delighted. So I served as a guinea pig again.

01:54:27.000 - 01:54:43.000

I was writing letters trying to figure out what to get into, if there was anything out there that was more exciting than going to an office every day. And I hit the Red Cross.

01:54:43.000 - 01:54:58.000

And so there again I asked my buddy friends if they wanted to go into the Red Cross and go overseas, and they all dropped by the wayside again. So I went by myself and signed up to be a staff assistant

01:54:58.000 - 01:55:10.000

and went to Washington for a month's training and then went over to the Philippines and Korea and stayed for, I think, about 15, 18 months, something like that. What was that experience like?

01:55:10.000 - 01:55:24.000

Oh, it was another glorious-- It made me appreciate hot water and clean clothes and warm clothes and good food and all that sort of stuff. It was fun.

01:55:24.000 - 01:55:40.000

I met these two girls in Washington. In fact, we became real close friends. And we went by train from Washington to San Francisco. By then, war had been--was over.

01:55:40.000 - 01:55:52.000

Japs had surrendered. And that was a glorious experience. I happened to be in Washington when V-J Day was celebrated, and that was unbelievable.

01:55:52.000 - 01:56:05.000

How did you celebrate? Well, I had a date with a character from Shreveport, and I didn't really like him, but I was so glad that night because it turned out it was nice to have a man along.

01:56:05.000 - 01:56:18.000

It was just--it was wild. I mean, it was just--everybody was drinking and partying, and it didn't matter whether you knew them or not. It was just a wild, wild time.

01:56:18.000 - 01:56:35.000

It was fun. But anyway, as I say, we went to--we shipped out of San Francisco on-- not the U.S., but the Klipfontein, which was a Dutch luxury liner that had left Rotterdam in '39

01:56:35.000 - 01:56:46.000

and technically was still on its maiden voyage. So it had its original Dutch crew. Washington had been telling us how bad it's going to be, how rough it's going to be.

01:56:46.000 - 01:56:58.000

And I said, "You know, good old Margaret, I want to store up enough fat to last me a while." So I had just been eating and drinking all the way across the United States. Get on this ship, and it continues.

01:56:58.000 - 01:57:10.000

I mean, wonderful food. The steward one morning noticed that I didn't eat breakfast or bacon and eggs and cereals, and he asked me if I'd like a Dutch breakfast,

01:57:10.000 - 01:57:25.000

and I said that sounded good. So I got on, I got a tray of sweet rolls and cold cuts and cheeses, all kinds of good stuff. And then the captain of the ship took pity on my friend Mickey and me

01:57:25.000 - 01:57:37.000

because he noticed--I don't know what he noticed-- but he sent his tray of pastry desserts around every night for us to indulge in. And you can't hurt their feelings. You have to eat them.

01:57:37.000 - 01:57:49.000

Well, I just kept bulging. And then we get to the Philippines, and we're sent out of Baguio to a place called San Fernando La Union, and I'm put in charge of a donut factory

01:57:49.000 - 01:58:08.000

where we make not one donut but 20,000 a day sometimes, all by hand with these little Filipinos doing the work. So I have to sample about every other pot of donuts that comes off the plate. So I gained some more.

01:58:08.000 - 01:58:23.000

It was an interesting living--well, the living quarters were nice, but they were primitive. I mean, you had cold showers, and you slept under a mosquito net every night, but they were nice considering everything.

01:58:23.000 - 01:58:46.000

And we had a fun time there because there was always--well, plenty of dance partners. And as I say, I love my donut factory, and it was fun to one. It was actually quite a bit of work because I had about two shifts, about 25 each, so there was about 50-some Filipinos working for me, and two or three--

01:58:46.000 - 01:59:04.000

Who were all these donuts for? Well, they had clubs scattered about the place, and they had clubmobiles. And these club--whoever was running the club or the clubmobile operator would call in the day before and say, "I need X number of donuts for tomorrow."

01:59:04.000 - 01:59:18.000

And so many gallons of coffee or so many gallons of punch. And that was-- And the clubs were service people? And these were for the GIs that were stationed there to come and have a cup of coffee

01:59:18.000 - 01:59:37.000

and a donut and maybe play ping pong or cards or whatever. So that was what happened. I think people don't know what Red Cross was doing, but that's basically what they did. Their theme or motto was "A Home Away from Home."

01:59:37.000 - 02:00:01.000

And then we were there for about six months, I guess, or seven, then went to Korea. And in Korea I worked in the club with Mickey, and we'd try to scrounge-- because they didn't have facilities to have good food and stuff, coffee, like we did in the Philippines. But we got--we would have--try to have coffee.

02:00:01.000 - 02:00:22.000

We had two nice fireplaces in our place. We had a ping pong table and we had cards and a little library where the fellows could read. And they'd just like to come down there and talk to you about anything under the sun. We had--a good example was we got a call from a--or a letter from one of the boys' mother.

02:00:22.000 - 02:00:37.000

She hadn't heard from him for weeks. She wondered if he was still alive. And he was one that was in our club under our feet practically every day. I caught him one day writing a letter to his mother, and it started off some--

02:00:37.000 - 02:00:58.000

"Dear Mom, Margaret is on duty today, so I'd better write you a letter." But they--you know, they just--most of them were young kids, 18, 19, and they were just homesick. Were these clubs strictly for enlisted men, or were there officers also? The officers--these were just enlisted men.

02:00:58.000 - 02:01:14.000

The officers had another club. Generally speaking, some of the office--some of the clubs welcomed the officers to drop by or what. But that depended strictly on the GI. It didn't have anything to do with us.

02:01:14.000 - 02:01:27.000

So-- And where did you live in Korea? Well, we lived in a Quonset hut when we first got there, outside of an old castle where the officers were living.

02:01:27.000 - 02:01:45.000

And if we wanted to shower, certain times a day we could go over there and take a shower. There was no modern plumbing in this Quonset hut by any means. Also, the Korean women were second-class citizens, so Koreans didn't pay any attention to women.

02:01:45.000 - 02:02:02.000

They had no status at all. So if you wanted to get fed when you went into the dining room, you tried to sit with one of the officers so that he could get food for you, because otherwise you'd sit all day just about without the Korean women waiting on you.

02:02:02.000 - 02:02:21.000

I finally made friends with them by letting them come over one day to the Quonset hut, the girls that were working in the dining room, and try on my uniforms and stuff. Oh, they had a jolly good time. They were trying on the clothes and looking at each other and giggling and laughing.

02:02:21.000 - 02:02:40.000

They were nice people, very good people there. How many of you girls were there? I don't know. In a Quonset hut, it would be about twelve to fifteen, I'd say around twelve maybe. So you're in another bay.

02:02:40.000 - 02:03:03.000

Yeah, by this time, there's no problem. In fact, well, as I say, you shouldn't ask a WASP to talk, because they never know when to stop. In going from the Philippines to—we went through Japan, Tokyo or Yokohama. We went on a ship that was like an old pirate ship.

02:03:03.000 - 02:03:24.000

It was filthy dirty. It was just an awful mess. And one of the girls went into the infirmary on the ship, because some little— well, it turned out she ran into a fellow that she had been—he'd been Boy Scouts when she was Girl Scouts, and they knew each other from Sumter, South Carolina.

02:03:24.000 - 02:03:49.000

And she came back. He said, "Well, bring your friends, and I'll check them into the infirmary." And give them a clean place to sleep, because, I mean, our state room was not a real good place to sleep. You were on bunks. It was really grim. Anyway, we checked in there, and he looked at me and he said,

02:03:49.000 - 02:04:05.000

"Well, I've got to put down a nail on the records here to see why I brought you in here." He says, "I'm going to put down acute malnutrition." Okay, we've got to stop right there and change the tape, and then we'll— [Laughter]

02:04:05.000 - 02:04:13.000

Don't forget where you were. Have you ever written a book? No. Oh, you should.

02:04:13.000 - 02:04:21.000

You need to write a book. Oh, my. But you need to write like you talk. Do you want some water?

02:04:21.000 - 02:04:39.000

They went to Puerto Rico and built Puerto Rico, really. I mean, they retired in Florida, but I went down there once to visit them. Okay, you're now in the infirmary. Oh, I'm now checked in the infirmary.

02:04:39.000 - 02:05:03.000

Well, that made the trip to Yokohama pretty nice. We got into terrible, terrible storms at sea, though. It was just we weren't allowed out on deck, and the sailors all got—or the troops all got sick, and I felt sorry for them. Well, we got in Yokohama, and of course there were a lot of military there, and we were talking to them,

02:05:03.000 - 02:05:14.000

and they kept asking us where we were going, and we said we were assigned to Korea. Oh, how awful. Oh, you poor things. They'd go—this sad tale.

02:05:14.000 - 02:05:30.000

Well, we got tired of hearing it. And so one day I said, "I'm going to tell them I've been there," and I asked for reassignment. I'm just tired of hearing everybody tell how awful it's going to be. So when I told this one fellow, he said—I said, "Oh, I've been there."

02:05:30.000 - 02:05:49.000

I said, "I want to get reassigned." And he looked at me, he says, "Girl, shake your head because you've got rocks in it, nothing else." So anyhow, that's how we ended up in Korea, and he was right. It was really grim.

02:05:49.000 - 02:06:06.000

They were building a new quarters for us. It was an old place called—there had been a dentist's office or whatever. And the great talk in the area was that we were going to have real flush toilets. This was really something.

02:06:06.000 - 02:06:25.000

Well, along the line, someone forgot to say that we didn't have water to go with them. I mean, sometimes they'd have water, but it wasn't provided. If the fellow didn't come and fill the tank, we didn't have water. I can—well, anyway, it was a happening.

02:06:25.000 - 02:06:34.000

It was cold, miserable. I felt sorry for the fellows. Were you on an air base or just in a town? No, we were just out.

02:06:34.000 - 02:06:55.000

We were out from Seoul, the main town, and we could go into Seoul. I mean, we went around. We had good fun, but it wasn't a place that you found comfort. We—the officers—well, in fact, they had a party one night.

02:06:55.000 - 02:07:14.000

I'll have to tell you about this. Here I am with, you know, fat and don't look like everything, and this fellow wanted me to go to this dance with him, one of the officers' clubs. And he heckled me so, and I finally said, "Well, Ben, I'll go with you,"

02:07:14.000 - 02:07:25.000

but I said only on one condition. It was a costume party. I said that I go like a native Korean woman and you go like a native Korean man. So he agreed.

02:07:25.000 - 02:07:44.000

So they carried their little babies, you know, in a sash in the back. So I got my good friend, one of the GIs, to track down a woman he knew that had a little baby that I could borrow for that party. So that night—and Ben was nice.

02:07:44.000 - 02:07:57.000

Well, he wasn't fat. He wore his little native Korean outfit, and we went into the party after it had been underway for about an hour, because I wanted everybody to be there.

02:07:57.000 - 02:08:14.000

And Ben walked ahead of me, and I came juggling along in this little baby. And some of the fellows at the bar, they looked at me, you know, and they see this baby, and they didn't think it was real. And then the baby had bounced, and then they'd grab a drink like,

02:08:14.000 - 02:08:26.000

"I'm seeing things. What's wrong with me?" But that little baby, we had more fun that night because I kept her— her mother was in the crowd. I mean, I didn't go without her.

02:08:26.000 - 02:08:39.000

But Ben and I danced around the dance floor, and little Deosa just bounced and juggled and had a wonderful time, and we won first prize. And then the characters all wanted to be taking pictures with me.

02:08:39.000 - 02:08:48.000

They'd come down. We had a lot of fun with little Deosa. So we had fun parties like that that we went to. And the baby never did cry?

02:08:48.000 - 02:09:01.000

Never cried. I cried with her mother for some time after I got home through the chaplain's office, and then we left. I lost track. I was thinking, "Now the dad would love to know what happened to little Deosa,"

02:09:01.000 - 02:09:16.000

because she was such a dear little girl. And I visited her several times, you know, let her ride on my back. How long then did you stay in Korea? Well, I came home in December of '46,

02:09:16.000 - 02:09:29.000

so I was about 15, well, no. Korea was probably six or seven months. But we came home. Did they have a requirement of how long you could stay,

02:09:29.000 - 02:09:41.000

or did you request to come back? Well, Mickey and I decided we'd come home, and we'd just ask about it. I mean, they were ready to get rid of us anyway, I think.

02:09:41.000 - 02:09:56.000

So probably thought we'd get rid of those two characters. So did you come back by ship? We came back by ship to Seattle from Korea. Frederick Funston.

02:09:56.000 - 02:10:13.000

Was that another Dutch ship? No, no luck on the Dutch ship, but that was really a nice ship. And then what did you do next? I lost my 30 pounds that I'd gained, 35.

02:10:13.000 - 02:10:29.000

I went back to Shreveport, and the funny part of it was that from Seattle on, I didn't have reservations, so I was just bumming-- we had to go through the--

02:10:29.000 - 02:10:44.000

not deactivation, but discharge, and be physically examined and all that sort of stuff. So I didn't really have a reservation to know exactly when I was going to be home.

02:10:44.000 - 02:10:58.000

I was just catching planes when I could. Well, I got in Shreveport, and when I got home that night, my aunt was saying, "Thank God, thank God." And I said, "What on earth are you thanking God for?

02:10:58.000 - 02:11:08.000

"What's going on?" She said, "Well, the paper wanted me to let them know "that when you were coming in, because they were going to come out "and take a picture, you were getting off the plane."

02:11:08.000 - 02:11:21.000

And she said, "It would have been a disaster "if they'd seen you like this, you know, "dragging a uniform half together, and oh, golly. "It would have been a disaster.

02:11:21.000 - 02:11:37.000

"I mean, they would-- it was terrible. "I mean, I looked terrible." But anyway, then I left Shreveport sometime after Christmas and started my trek to New York, because I had friends along the way.

02:11:37.000 - 02:11:55.000

I visited my aunt, and Vanita, and my father. I don't remember whether he was there or not. But anyway, visiting relatives up through Kansas City and to Chicago. And then one of the GIs wanted me to come and visit his family

02:11:55.000 - 02:12:08.000

and meet his girlfriend. In fact, I still hear from them there. They've been here to visit several times. And I stopped there, went on into Detroit,

02:12:08.000 - 02:12:23.000

and visited another Red Cross girl and her fiancé, and went into New York City and picked up Ruth Thatcher from-- or Showcat from the Wasp days. And they convinced me I should stay in New York.

02:12:23.000 - 02:12:34.000

I just should stay in New York. And my friend threw me over his shoulders and hooked me in to meet his buddies at the bar. But anyway, I picked up the paper one day,

02:12:34.000 - 02:12:45.000

and there was a nice little ad in it that said, "Wanted--bookkeeper, Downtown Airline." And I thought, "Well, that sounds interesting." So I called, and they asked me how many years' experience,

02:12:45.000 - 02:12:55.000

and I thought, "Oh, three sounds good." She said, "No, I don't think you'll do." And then I started telling her about my Wasp experiences and working for the--

02:12:55.000 - 02:13:07.000

so would I come in and interview the CPA that was interviewing. So I got the job. It was six ex-Air Force officers had flown the hump in Burma,

02:13:07.000 - 02:13:19.000

and they had figured out that if they could fly cargo like that over there, they could fly air freight to Europe at a decent price, and they'd buy up some of the surplus DC-4s,

02:13:19.000 - 02:13:30.000

and that's the way they'd make it. So here they were. They had a Nana Quirk, a wonderful gal, who had been a Red Cross worker over there that they'd met,

02:13:30.000 - 02:13:42.000

and she knew all about-- she'd worked for Pan Am, so she had some background that they would help them. So we entered into the business of seaboard and Western Airlines,

02:13:42.000 - 02:13:55.000

flying freight to Europe, and that was wonderful because you could fly to Europe on company plane. You know, space available if you could get the time off.

02:13:55.000 - 02:14:10.000

And so that took a few years, and I got to cover Europe with them easy because they flew into London, they flew into Brussels,

02:14:10.000 - 02:14:24.000

they flew into Amsterdam, they flew into Paris, they flew into Geneva and Milan, and so that was a glorious thing.

02:14:24.000 - 02:14:36.000

So we had experiences-- (laughter) --more experiences with them, but they were really a nice group of fellows,

02:14:36.000 - 02:14:51.000

and Art, the treasurer-- we used to have a money problem, and we were always short of funds, generally, for a long time, but I guess it worked well.

02:14:51.000 - 02:15:03.000

The company changed. I mean, they were bought out and taken over, and I don't know what has happened to them. And then when you left there, what did you do?

02:15:03.000 - 02:15:21.000

Well, I left there-- I hate to bring this out, but it's part of my life. I left there because I had a son out of wedlock. Stayed there when I left--

02:15:21.000 - 02:15:38.000

so I left that for a few months, and then I went back to work for Sloves Mechanical Binding Company. They did advertising presentations and bound books and that. He was a wonderful character,

02:15:38.000 - 02:15:50.000

probably the ugliest man that ever lived, but just a wonderful person. And I did a lot of entertaining for him. If I went in to work--

02:15:50.000 - 02:16:02.000

I was office manager-- if I went in to work looking especially nice and well-groomed, he'd make arrangements for me to go to lunch with one of his clients, and frequently they were other women,

02:16:02.000 - 02:16:18.000

but they were just a nice group of girls and people that he knew. Or he might take me to lunch himself. I mean, he was just a great person. I got him--I got one of my friends that I had met in Korea,

02:16:18.000 - 02:16:32.000

who also ended up in New York-- I got her a job with him, and he was just delighted with her work. He just couldn't be nice enough about that.

02:16:32.000 - 02:16:48.000

So then while I was working, it was kind of a depressing job because he had so many people working in his shop that were on minimum wages, and it was hard to take. I was looking for help for his office,

02:16:48.000 - 02:17:01.000

because that's one thing I did was hire people. And I saw this nice little ad in the paper-- "Overseas wanted something--Secretary Overseas." It was just a tiny little--

02:17:01.000 - 02:17:15.000

and I thought, "Hmm, I might call about that." So I called, and it was in Burma. And I said, "Oh, I've always wanted to go to Burma. "So next I'll have a little meeting about this."

02:17:15.000 - 02:17:27.000

So the woman called me in and hired me. I later found that she gave tests-- well, there were supposed to be four girls that were assigned to a group of civil engineers,

02:17:27.000 - 02:17:39.000

mining engineers, and economists. As a unit, I mean, the prime contractor was the civil engineer. But they were doing an economic study of Burma,

02:17:39.000 - 02:17:48.000

and they had four-- there were supposed to be four girls going over to do secretarial and typing and train the Burmese and all that jazz.

02:17:48.000 - 02:18:00.000

So anyway, she hired me. I later found out that she gave the other girls all a typing test, and I thought, "Oh, glory, if I'd had that, I'd never have made it."

02:18:00.000 - 02:18:11.000

But it ended up that I was the only girl that stayed the full term, and the others came and went. They got fired or terminated, and I don't know. It was just a mess.

02:18:11.000 - 02:18:24.000

But I ended up staying the whole time. It was basically a typing job, really. The economists asked me to work for them, and I really thought the world of Dr. Hagen,

02:18:24.000 - 02:18:34.000

who was an MIT professor. I thought I was taking a leave and doing it. With that... - So did you go to Burma?

02:18:34.000 - 02:18:42.000

- So I went to Burma... for two years. (laughs) - And did you go on another troop ship?

02:18:42.000 - 02:18:51.000

- No. As a matter of fact, I flew. And the thing of it is, the woman thought it would be bad for me to fly by--

02:18:51.000 - 02:19:03.000

I mean, poor little Margaret flying by herself. So she sent me with this couple that were going out. The woman was going as another typist, and the man was going as an engineer.

02:19:03.000 - 02:19:15.000

Well, we had reservations as far as Athens, but we didn't have past Athens by air. So we stopped in Paris. Then we went to Athens,

02:19:15.000 - 02:19:26.000

and I got tired of staying there. We were supposed to only take ten days. And so I left the couple. I said, "Well, I'm going to see if I can get out."

02:19:26.000 - 02:19:35.000

And, you know, "If you can get out, fine, but I'm going to go on." And so I got to Cairo, and then spent two or three days there,

02:19:35.000 - 02:19:44.000

and went on to Burma. Got there with no problem. - What was life like in Burma? - Wonderful. Wonderful.

02:19:44.000 - 02:19:53.000

It was... I won't say next to the dream world, but it was... The first time we lived in a hotel,

02:19:53.000 - 02:20:03.000

the Strand Hotel, where your slightest wish is my command. You know, just wonderful food. Every night there would be

02:20:03.000 - 02:20:13.000

dancing and music in the lounge, and the fellows, the whole group, I mean, would gang around, and some of them would dance,

02:20:13.000 - 02:20:23.000

some of them would just sit there and talk and visit and have a good time. We got out of the hotel.

02:20:23.000 - 02:20:35.000

They started trying to find us local housing. I ended up in what they called the Chummery, which was a building of apartments. I had a...

02:20:35.000 - 02:20:44.000

I guess you'd call it a one-bedroom. The bedroom was huge, but the little entrance room was small. And apartment.

02:20:44.000 - 02:20:53.000

I had four servants. I had one boy that took charge of everything. If I wanted to have a party, all I had to do was say,

02:20:53.000 - 02:21:02.000

"Joseph, I'd like to have dinner for eight tonight or ten tonight," and I had nothing to do but just come in and enjoy because Joseph would take over.

02:21:02.000 - 02:21:14.000

I had a girl that did nothing but keep my clothes in order, and there was never a loose button or anything. She had them always ready for me to wear.

02:21:14.000 - 02:21:24.000

There was another boy that did nothing but clean the bathroom, and one that did the sweeping. So it was kind of nice.

02:21:24.000 - 02:21:33.000

We generally... After I got in the apartment, I frequently got up and went out to golf course and played nine holes before I came to work.

02:21:33.000 - 02:21:48.000

And then the economist had taken the lower floor, so my apartment was just above my work. So I'd come back and Joseph would bring me down a tray with coffee

02:21:48.000 - 02:21:57.000

and whatever fruit, whatever I wanted, bring Dr. Hagen a cup of coffee or hot chocolate or something, and I'd start my day.

02:21:57.000 - 02:22:09.000

And then we played a lot of tennis after work. We also did a lot of swimming after work. Sometimes we went dancing, and it was just a glorious place to be.

02:22:09.000 - 02:22:19.000

-Were there a lot of Americans there? -Not too many. There was the embassy there, so I don't know how many the embassy had.

02:22:19.000 - 02:22:30.000

But it was just, as I say, the people were lovely. I love the Burmese people. They were just honest.

02:22:30.000 - 02:22:42.000

You wouldn't find a country as honest as the Burmese were. I could leave $1,000 on my table and go out and be gone for a week, and it'd be still there when I came back.

02:22:42.000 - 02:22:53.000

Never--they were just-- I worked with a little Burmese boy. He was a typist, and he was so good. Just, oh, he was wonderful

02:22:53.000 - 02:23:07.000

because they had a lot of charts and tables to type up, and I always gave them to him because I couldn't-- I wasn't any good at it. But he was really good.

02:23:07.000 - 02:23:16.000

We became real good friends. -Why then, why did you come back to the States? -Well, the contract was up, and then the Burmese--

02:23:16.000 - 02:23:28.000

I could have stayed maybe a year longer, I don't know. But they were terminating the study, and so it was all shifting around. -So when you came back to the States, what did you do?

02:23:28.000 - 02:23:40.000

-Well, I visited for a while. I had met my husband over there, and we got married the following May. And--

02:23:40.000 - 02:23:51.000

-What were the qualities you saw in him that made you fall in love and marry him? -Well, he was a very gentle person to begin with. He was quite knowledgeable.

02:23:51.000 - 02:24:02.000

He was well-educated. He wasn't handsome, by any means, but he wasn't bad-looking, and had good manners,

02:24:02.000 - 02:24:12.000

and played a good game of gin rummy. [laughs] I often said that I won him in a gin rummy game, because we were in Burma,

02:24:12.000 - 02:24:20.000

and I was arguing-- not arguing, but just commenting one night, and I said that I was probably the best gin rummy player out there.

02:24:20.000 - 02:24:30.000

And, of course, that riled him up, and he figured he was the best gin rummy player. So all the gang, I mean, they'd heard this argument

02:24:30.000 - 02:24:38.000

when we were out in the lounge, and they gathered around to see what the game would be like, and who was going to win.

02:24:38.000 - 02:24:46.000

Well, I beat! Well, I expected to beat, you know. I mean, there was no big deal. I found out later that he can beat me

02:24:46.000 - 02:24:56.000

about two-thirds of the time, so I was just, I guess, lucky, or he hadn't caught on how I played. But I expected to win.

02:24:56.000 - 02:25:04.000

He enjoyed games, and I've always-- I mean, I guess I grew up on games. I may not have said so, but our family always played.

02:25:04.000 - 02:25:12.000

My uncle and I in Shreveport fought over gin rummy. I mean, that was-- and I enjoy that.

02:25:12.000 - 02:25:20.000

>> Describe your wedding. What was that like? >> Well, it was supposed to be a very simple little wedding

02:25:20.000 - 02:25:28.000

in my aunt's home in Veneta, because I figured all my relatives-- my mother was living close by, my dad was in Sinclair, Wyoming,

02:25:28.000 - 02:25:37.000

and my aunt in Shreveport-- I figured everybody that wanted to could come. And so when I got there,

02:25:37.000 - 02:25:45.000

my aunt started telling me the different people that were coming. (laughing) And it turned out--

02:25:45.000 - 02:25:54.000

I don't know, we probably had 60 or 70, maybe more, maybe less. I don't really remember. I know there was a gang of people.

02:25:54.000 - 02:26:02.000

She said, "Well, they heard about it, "and they just--" and she told my husband, "Well, the Chamberlains always

02:26:02.000 - 02:26:10.000

"celebrate wakes and weddings, "and that's why they're here." (laughing) >> Was it a formal wedding?

02:26:10.000 - 02:26:18.000

>> No, it was just a home wedding. It was quite pretty, because the neighbors, all my friends-- well, these are older people

02:26:18.000 - 02:26:31.000

than I'd known all my life-- came in and wanted to decorate the house. And my friend, Elner, from New York, who was the girl I met in Korea,

02:26:31.000 - 02:26:42.000

they were arguing about flowers for the wedding with a florist. Well, my friend Elner had sent her-- asked her dad in Hawaii,

02:26:42.000 - 02:26:54.000

who was an orchid grower, or had friends that were, to send me flowers. And we had orchids and thurium lilies

02:26:54.000 - 02:27:02.000

coming out our ears. I've never seen so many flowers in my life. They arrived from Elner. I mean, she's just that type of gal

02:27:02.000 - 02:27:10.000

that would do that. So, no, it was-- I had--Ruth Thatcher was maid of honor, and my uncle served as best man.

02:27:10.000 - 02:27:21.000

And it was a small family wedding. >> Had you met his parents? >> His parents were deceased. He was divorced.

02:27:21.000 - 02:27:33.000

And I had met him in Burma, because he'd been out in Burma years before. >> Then where'd you go on your honeymoon? >> Down through the Ozarks and Arkansas

02:27:33.000 - 02:27:42.000

and back up to Oklahoma, then flew to New York. And then from there, that's-- well, that fall, we went to Indonesia,

02:27:42.000 - 02:27:53.000

where he was a consultant for a year and a half or two years, or something like that. >> So you went on another overseas trip.

02:27:53.000 - 02:28:04.000

>> And Indonesia was not Burma. It was another Korea, almost. It was something else. >> Did you work when you got there?

02:28:04.000 - 02:28:13.000

>> Well, yes, I guess I did work. I worked for an author, a student from--or not a student, a professor from Cornell

02:28:13.000 - 02:28:23.000

that was doing research over there, and I used to go with him on his interviews and then type up the interview. The Americans also put on

02:28:23.000 - 02:28:35.000

what they called an international trade fair. Well, I don't know whether the Americans or-- but anyway, I don't know who put it on. I thought the Americans.

02:28:35.000 - 02:28:45.000

And they exhibited. I worked for them while that was going on, which was--because there was a shortage of help over there. There wasn't many--

02:28:45.000 - 02:28:56.000

so anybody that was interested in working, I guess you could get it for someone. >> Did you live in a compound or out with the Indonesian people?

02:28:56.000 - 02:29:07.000

>> Well, living was terrible over there, absolutely terrible. We lived in a hotel for a while, and I asked for a clean plate one day,

02:29:07.000 - 02:29:19.000

and the plates were all standing up in the middle of the floor on a table. And the poor little guy that was trying to find me a clean plate kept going down through the stack.

02:29:19.000 - 02:29:34.000

He'd look at my plate, and he'd look at the one in the stack, and it was pretty hard to do. But that was--it was just different. And we got a house for a while,

02:29:34.000 - 02:29:49.000

and then the Indonesian government was taking over any vacant house. And they heard that we had taken this house out, you know, without permission from them,

02:29:49.000 - 02:30:02.000

and they were going to take it back from the owners, so he quickly got back in, and we moved out again. But we, as I say, lived in the hotel most of the time. We never did have--and the people in the hotels

02:30:02.000 - 02:30:15.000

that were living in hotels, mostly they fixed it up so they could cook, and they had the refrigerator and part of the room, and that's what we did. So we had pretty good--we had pretty good food, actually.

02:30:15.000 - 02:30:30.000

My husband went on a mining trip once and came back with the address of a butcher shop, and it turned out it had wonderful food. And so we didn't have any problem with meat.

02:30:30.000 - 02:30:44.000

We had good pork and beef and vegetables. They had all kinds of good vegetables and things. You just had to be careful in washing them and taking care of them, you know, and sanitizing.

02:30:44.000 - 02:30:59.000

- And you stayed there then two years and came back to the States. - Yeah, about--both times--well, not both times, but we bought a car on coming back in London

02:30:59.000 - 02:31:15.000

and went just tootling all over the States. I mean, not States, but Europe, different European countries. And so we did that, and then we came back--

02:31:15.000 - 02:31:29.000

- How long did you do that? - Probably two or three months. - Okay. - And then we came back and visited family and went to California,

02:31:29.000 - 02:31:43.000

and then we went to Canada for a year. I was trying to figure that out the other day. I think it was about a year that we were up there. And then we thought, well,

02:31:43.000 - 02:31:54.000

it was about time to settle down, and I like--I'd been through Phoenix, you know, as a WASP, and I loved Phoenix when I was through here. I thought it was really a super place,

02:31:54.000 - 02:32:03.000

although I didn't get to see a lot of it, but what I saw, I liked. And he had worked down in Bisbee, at the mining down there,

02:32:03.000 - 02:32:14.000

so we decided, well, we'd try Arizona. First, we went all down through Mexico, looking at possibilities of living there. So we ended up in Phoenix,

02:32:14.000 - 02:32:25.000

and here we have been ever since. I didn't like the house when we moved in. Still not my favorite house, but I like the neighbors.

02:32:25.000 - 02:32:36.000

I've got wonderful neighbors. Just super people that live around here. - And what makes you happy now? - What makes me happy?

02:32:36.000 - 02:32:45.000

When my back doesn't hurt. [both laugh] Oh, no, I don't know. I think you can wake up every morning and say,

02:32:45.000 - 02:33:05.000

"Today I'll be happy," or "Today I'll be miserable." And I'm thankful for what I've been able to do in life. It's not spectacular, but it's been a good life. - How do you spend your time now?

02:33:05.000 - 02:33:16.000

- How do I spend my-- - Are you involved in volunteer work or church work? - Well, I go out to the museum every week, and I have so many people that--

02:33:16.000 - 02:33:30.000

I said I should have been a consultant because there are just a lot of people that call me and unburden their souls, you might say. Right now I'm doing--it's volunteer work,

02:33:30.000 - 02:33:43.000

but I'm helping out a friend on some accounting stuff. I worked up until probably four or five years ago. I did accounting work, which-- or tax work.

02:33:43.000 - 02:33:56.000

And I'm busy trying to get my affairs in order so when I take my last flight, well, nobody will have all the problems that some people get faced with.

02:33:56.000 - 02:34:13.000

I don't know, it may sound like a very dull life in a way, but I've got ailments that make travel difficult. I mean, I feel that I've traveled, and I've certainly--since being here in Arizona,

02:34:13.000 - 02:34:31.000

I've covered the West. Many trips all over California and Colorado and Arizona. There's hardly any place we haven't been in Arizona. And Montana and all.

02:34:31.000 - 02:34:39.000

- Does he enjoy traveling as much as you do? - Mm-hmm. Well, he's deceased now. He died in '82.

02:34:39.000 - 02:34:50.000

And he loved traveling. Yeah, he was very good at that. That's probably another attraction was-- we both had itchy feet.

02:34:50.000 - 02:35:04.000

I have lots of company. I sort of say I run a bed and breakfast because he had three children. The oldest is very close to me.

02:35:04.000 - 02:35:15.000

The other two live back in Maine, so I don't see them very often. But Beverly spends a lot--or has in the past. She hasn't been here to visit--well, since April.

02:35:15.000 - 02:35:29.000

So I guess that's not so far back. But I have a niece in New York, and she's sort of like my--well, she's really like a daughter. Debbie's just as close as a daughter could be.

02:35:29.000 - 02:35:44.000

And in fact, she's--and her-- two of her kids are going to be here for Thanksgiving. And my son looked me up a few years ago, and he's down--he was down here twice in the summer.

02:35:44.000 - 02:36:00.000

I have a granddaughter. And they were both here. I was supposed to have company in September, but the fiasco in New York upset their plan,

02:36:00.000 - 02:36:11.000

so they didn't make it. So as I say, I stay busy. As the song goes, I'm busy doing nothing, working the whole day through, you know, how it is.

02:36:11.000 - 02:36:26.000

As a docent, what do you enjoy most about being a docent? Is it the children? I enjoy being--well, the contact with the different people and, as you say, seeing the children.

02:36:26.000 - 02:36:44.000

Some of them--well, that was--some of them are interested. Some of them are not so interested. But I guess it's the people from all over the world, you might say. I had the other day when I was in there a young couple from Germany.

02:36:44.000 - 02:36:59.000

They had an American accompanying them around, but they were interested in, you know, the German planes. The museum is not--they recognize all pilots. It doesn't matter what nationality.

02:36:59.000 - 02:37:25.000

If you were an ace in Germany, you're an ace here. I mean, so it's--and I, as I say, I like the relationship with the other docents. They're a great group of fellows. We're all falling apart slowly but in different ways.

02:37:25.000 - 02:37:39.000

As far as the WASP and the organization of the WASP, were you involved with any of that? Well, with the-- For example, the trying to get WASP veteran status.

02:37:39.000 - 02:37:56.000

I was involved a little bit with the militarization. For getting local publicity. I didn't go--excuse me, I didn't go to Washington or anything like that. I've forgotten when it was.

02:37:56.000 - 02:38:09.000

I served one year as treasurer. In fact, I'm proud of the fact that I think I had more signed up members than any-- of course, no one can compete with me because they're dying off. But I had over 1,013, I think it was.

02:38:09.000 - 02:38:21.000

And these were not friends of WASP because you couldn't have friends of WASP at the time. They were strictly members. I did a tremendous amount of correspondence and telephoning and tracking people down.

02:38:21.000 - 02:38:39.000

And I enjoyed that. And I was also one term as secretary. So I sort of--I feel I have contributed something to my WASP membership. And now, as far as speeches or that kind of thing, are you involved with--

02:38:39.000 - 02:39:02.000

Because of health reasons, I just had to taper it off. I mean, that I miss because I enjoyed some of the contacts I made. And I particularly enjoyed a lot of these young high school kids that were interested in women and what we do.

02:39:02.000 - 02:39:17.000

In looking back over your life, you've had a lot of happy times, but you've had a couple of sad times. What's got you through those sad times? Well, I guess just knowing that they can't last forever.

02:39:17.000 - 02:39:33.000

They are sad times, but we all have them. And I think it'd be sad not to have them because you can't really appreciate the good times if you haven't had something that's sad to compare it with.

02:39:33.000 - 02:39:47.000

What is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP program that she is responsible for? Well, I have great admiration for her, and I know she tromped on lots of people's toes.

02:39:47.000 - 02:40:02.000

But I think if she hadn't been the type of person she was, we would have never been the organization we are. I think--I have nothing but praise for Cochran, myself. And I didn't really know her,

02:40:02.000 - 02:40:19.000

but I think when you look at her background and see this little orphan girl and what she came up to be, you have to admire her tremendously. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be?

02:40:19.000 - 02:40:43.000

I hadn't given that much thought. Well, I should certainly think it would be that you can do anything that you start or really want to do. The WASP can have demonstrated that.

02:40:43.000 - 02:41:14.000

There are girls from all society that have shown that they can tackle almost any obstacle, I guess. I don't really--they certainly have left their mark.

02:41:14.000 - 02:41:33.000

And your legacy, what will that be? I don't know if I'll--oh, I'm not sure I'll leave a legacy. Maybe she left them laughing. Well, I hope so.

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I hope that I leave the legacy that life is not too serious. I mean, you've got to have some fun with it. You can't really buy happiness. I think you have to generate that in your own little soul.

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I certainly believe that there's a superpower. I don't know that I'm religious particularly, but it guides us and gets us through this world. I feel strongly on that.

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I was just reading a little book by Leo Tolstoy on what men live by, and the general theme is they live by love, love for the fellow man. And I strongly believe that.

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I think if you have hatred in your heart, that you're going to suffer. As I say, I look back on many things I did that weren't the wisest things,

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but I think I've been forgiven. If you could say something to future generations or your grandchildren, great-grandchildren, children that you will never know,

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that might encourage them who are watching you, your life, and listening to you, what would you say to those children that might encourage them to achieve

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or to do something, live out their dreams? Well, I don't know. I tell young people to do things now. Don't procrastinate and put off doing something

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you really want to do. If you don't do it now, it's too late later on. Because when you get older, you're not able to. You can't do things like you did when you were younger.

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So I encourage them if they want to travel, to travel. If they want to teach school, whatever they want to do. And I definitely believe in encouraging children. When they come in, I've seen little kids come in

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and tell their mother, "Oh, I'm going to be a, well, a fireman." And, "Oh, you don't want to be a fireman. You want to be this."

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I mean, that's no good. Well, cheer them on. Say, "That's great. I'm glad you want to be one."

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I mean, I'm a great believer in encouraging children. There were a lot of things my father couldn't give me monetarily, but I think he gave me encouragement. I mean, I don't remember him ever saying,

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"Well, you can't be that. Go ahead and do it." And the fact that you're a girl, don't let that worry you. Just go ahead.

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I think I've never felt discriminated against by the men. Maybe that's because I could climb trees as high as they could. And fly as high. And fly as high.

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No, I think it's -- I just feel sorry for people that have had to go through that. You have made us very happy. You have been great, and we thank you so much. Generations ahead will thank you also.

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Oh, dear. Well, it hasn't been too bad. I just keep thinking, "Margaret, you ought to keep your mouth shut, though." I'll have to tell you that we're off now, aren't we?

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We can turn it off. We sure can.