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It never came out with the excitement that it did the second time. I'm rolling bars, so we're almost ready to roll here. And your microphone is right here, Mom. When I get excited, I can get pretty loud.

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That's good. I'll turn it down. We are rolling. I'm Deanie Parrish.

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We're interviewing Madge Moore in her new book, "The Fourth of July." her home in San Antonio, Texas. Today is the 12th of May, 2001. Okay, Madge.

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Leonore Moore And I'm Madge Leon Moore. Kelly Reid Were you born?

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Leonore Moore I was born in rural Texas, a little town of about 1,500 people out where the -- west Texas is flat. And I went to the fourth grade in Sweetwater, so I was not surprised at all when I went

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into the WASP and reported to Avenger Field. Kelly: Oh, good. And when were you born, Mitch? Mildred: I was born January 22, 1922.

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Kelly: Okay. In rural Texas, where did you live in this town? Mildred: Well, for the first four years, I lived on a farm, and then we moved into town. Kelly: Okay.

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Let's talk about the farm. Out on the farm, what did your dad grow? What did he want to do? I don't know what he grew.

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I don't remember the fields. I remember one day seeing a bunch of tarantulas coming out of the ground. I know that we had a colored family that worked for us. The little girl and I took a bath one day in a little wooden bucket about like that.

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At least that's what we were trying to do when my mother stopped us. Did your dad have farm animals? He must have. I don't remember.

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He had a tractor. And what was he raising? Cotton? Probably cotton and maybe some maize.

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I don't know. I was too little to remember that. Do you remember your first chores around home? Maybe I didn't have any.

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I don't remember chores. What is your very earliest remembrance? Is it of the farm? Yes, and I know we had a cat, and the cat had kittens, and she brought one of them.

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I was still sleeping in a crib, and I can still see the moonlight coming in through the window when she put that little kitten in my crib with me. Did you name the kitten? Yes, Betty Blue.

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And when we moved into town, we took Betty Blue with us. My grandmother and grandfather lived in Rule, and I used to walk down to their house, which was about a block away, past one of my schoolteachers' house. And—

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Kelly: Talk about starting to school. Did you walk to school? Vickie: Yes. Always walked to school, walked to and from.

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Kelly: What did your dad do when you moved into Rule? Vickie: He had the picture show, and he also had part interest in the ice plant. And I could always get lots of cold ice. My mother had a party one time, and she used a block of ice that had been quite -- it always

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freezes on the outside first, and the inside is -- it was -- anyway, she used that for the punch bowl. I remember that, but that was a long time ago. Do you remember any games you played as a child?

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Who were your playmates? >> Well, I had -- my favorite playmate was -- lived down the street, but then she moved away, and I had another playmate that is still one

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of my real good friends. And one of my cousins lived there in the town. She and I enjoyed playing together. I never did play dolls except with my one friend Mildred.

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She and I both had dolls, and then she also had dolls that her mother had played with. I thought that was real nice. As you were growing up, describe for me what a Christmas was like at your home. Do you remember a special--?

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Vicky Redmond There was always a tree. Well, I remember one Christmas, oh, I wanted a Bilo doll so bad. Well, I got the Bilo doll, but I also got another doll. And the last few years I've thought about that, I always wonder why I got two dolls.

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And they probably ordered the bilo from Sears Roebuck, but they weren't sure it was going to get there in time. And so they must have bought that other doll. So I would at least have one doll.

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And I was always fascinated with ducks, and I had a duck one time, but there was no place for it to swim except in that little wooden bucket. And we had rabbits, and we had a dog one time, but it chased cars. And I had Betty Blue, the cat.

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Do you remember a favorite gift that you got at one particular Christmas? Well, one Christmas I got--I don't remember a favorite gift, but I got a little glass--I guess you could call it a jewelry box--that the maid gave me, the colored woman who lived in the yard.

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I was real pleased with that. Kelly: For Christmas, did you share Christmas with your grandparents? No, just our family, Mother and Daddy and me. Kelly: When you were growing up, how did you spend your vacations?

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Vacations. One time, mother and daddy and my aunt and uncle and cousin went to New Mexico to Cloud Croft. And I guess my cousin and I were about ten years old, something like that.

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And oh, we had a real good time, just a real good time. But then when we came back home, when we got out of the mountains and back where I could see, it was like a weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I was not aware that it was there, but I certainly felt it when it left.

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I was so glad to be back where I could see, see the horizon. Tell me about starting school. Well, my birthday is January the 22nd, and I was always tall. There was another little girl whose birthday was January the 21st, and she was real, real

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little. And people in the school would stand around looking at her because she was so cute and so little, and I felt sort of left out. How did that influence your life?

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Did it make a difference? Steele: I don't know that it did. Kelly: In elementary school, do you remember any favorite teachers? Steele: Well, I remember that I liked my second-grade teacher.

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I don't remember why, particularly. And I remember in the first grade, teacher, we had first grade class, we sat in double seats and the little boy that sat behind me was always pestering me. And I would turn around and he'd go like this and I'd pinch him.

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He reminded me of that years and years later. But I don't-- I had an aunt that I thought was real special. In fact, I had two aunts that I thought were real special.

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Kelly: What were your ambitions? I wanted to be a dress designer. I guess that was it. Kelly: And as you went on from elementary school into junior high, what kind of a student

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were you? Fletcher: Well, I was a good student. Kelly: What were your favorite subjects? Fletcher: Well, I liked math.

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I liked most of my teachers except one. I always preferred to sit in a seat close to the teacher. But the first day of school, when I got there, all those seats were taken, and I took one in the back.

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She never did -- when she moved people around, she never would move me, and I didn't like her well enough to ask her to move me. So I sat in that same seat all year. [Laughs]

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>> When you were in junior high, did you have outside activities or school activities that you were involved in? >> We didn't have junior high. We went from seventh grade to high school.

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Oh, I took dancing. And well, when I was younger, I took piano, but I wasn't very good at it, so I wasn't interested in it and didn't pursue that. But I loved dancing.

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And I took art, which I enjoy. I guess that's it. In high school, did you still want to be a dress designer, or by that time had you changed? Steele: By that time, I was just interested in what I was doing at the time.

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I wasn't thinking about the future. Kelly: Tell me about your high school prom. Steele: Oh, mercy, we didn't have a prom. That little town, little Baptists and Methodists and Episcopal--.

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I hadn't even heard of Episcopalian church, and there wasn't a Catholic church. There were Presbyterian, Baptist, oh, Christian church, and a Seventh-day Adventist. But there was no dancing, except that some of the kids would dance, and there was a place where the big concrete slab, the gin or something, had burned down years and years before.

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And so every once in a while, they would take a record player, and everybody would go out turn their car lights on this area and dance. Well somebody invited me to go with them one time, and I asked Daddy if I could go. And he said, "Well, why don't you invite them to come to our house?

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We had a great big living room." And so from then on, when anybody wanted to dance, they just -- they said, "Could we come to your house?" And that's -- so everybody came to my house to dance.

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Did you have a dinner for your graduating class? Steele: Yes, we had a dinner. Kelly: What were your social activities like in high school? Steele: Well, we could go to the picture show, or we could go to somebody's house and play

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play dominoes or play some kind of card game. Or we could just drive around the square. There really wasn't much to do in that little town. And now I was never a tomboy, but I was always adventurous.

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I can remember saying, "Oh, let's go down a new road." But there weren't any new roads. First route was fifteen hundred people, and then we moved to the big town of Haskell, which was twenty-five hundred people.

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And just flat. There weren't any new roads. >> What was your graduation like? >> Well, I was one of four speakers, and I just remember

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that right in the middle of that speech, I was suddenly aware of my boyfriend's mother looking at me, and I just forgot what the rest of my speech was for a minute. It was so embarrassing for me.

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>> What was your speech about? How did you get to be one of the four speakers? Was it your grades? Buck-Morrison

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Probably, probably. I don't know. I was usually -- I don't know. Kelly Clinton

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Did you have a baccalaureate sermon or service? Buck-Morrison I don't think so. Kelly Clinton

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Tell me about this boy that you liked in high school. What attracted you to that boy? Vicky: Well, I was in the fifth grade when we moved to Haskell. And something, he liked me, and he would write me notes.

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"I love you," and things like that. And I thought, "Well, how strange. He doesn't even know me." And he would pass them to me by another boy, and I really thought that other boy was cuter.

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But that was in the fifth grade. And he used to come by and see me every once in a while. And when we were freshmen, we dated. And then, I don't know, we broke up.

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We started going with seeing other people. And then when we were juniors, he invited me to play -- what were the cards? No, it couldn't have been cards. It must have been dominoes.

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At his house, there were three tables, and we did that off and on for several weeks. And then we got to -- I liked him. We dated when we were freshmen in college. What was a typical date like in Haskell?

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Well, you'd go to the movie, and then you would go to the Karner Drugstore and have something to drink, and then you'd have a Coke or an ice cream cone or something, and then you'd go home. Once you finished high school, did you know before you finished high school what you were

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going to do, where you were going to school, and how did you decide on the school? Well, start of process of elimination, and several of the other girls were going to TSCW, and I just thought, "Well, that would be fun to do." So that's where I went.

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Incidentally, the day that I went away, Mother was taking me and two other girls to school. We stopped in Stanford, and I took my mother up for her first airplane ride ever. Kelly: And why would you take your mother for an airplane ride? Vicky: Well, because I was flying, and she had never been up before.

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Let's go back to you. How did you become interested? Tell me about the first time you saw an airplane. Do you remember?

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Steele: Well, no, I don't. Kelly: Okay. Then why did you become interested in flying? Steele: Well, I told you I was always adventurous.

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And my father came home to lunch one day, and he told us that he had been up flying, throwing out circulars. The closest airfield was in Stanford, thirteen miles away, and the instructor over there, in order to finance a new airplane, was selling ten hours of flying time for fifty dollars.

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Well, Daddy had given him fifty dollars and had thrown out circulars for an hour. And when he told us about that, I said, "Oh, let me have the rest of the time." Now I don't know why. I mean, there must have been some reason, but I just wanted to do it.

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And so that following Sunday, Mother and Daddy took me to Stanford, and I had my first flight. And then from then on, two or three times a week, I would drive over real early in the morning and have a lesson. How old were you at that time?

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I was seventeen. I had just finished high school. And I remember, I guess the instructor told Daddy that it was time for me to solo or something because Daddy took me this day.

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And the instructor, you know, we went around, shot one or two takeoffs and landings, and we were down the other end of the field, and he opened the door and said, well, he didn't say take it around. He said, he must have said, "It's all yours."

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So I took off, and I was about to come back in and land, and I thought, "I want to go back down now. I've got this airplane all by myself." And I started flying around, and Daddy was down there on the field, walking out the field,

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trying to get me to come back. And so anyway, I -- and there were several young adult men who were taking lessons at the same time, and I guess they were curious about me. way, the instructor let me take them up for a ride.

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And so, then I invited my boyfriend to go with me. And he sat there like this, just scared to touch anything. But that was all right. I still liked him.

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EC: And at this point, you were just a student pilot, right? Wasn't that most unusual? Vicky: Well, I guess I had demonstrated that I could do it to this instructor, and there weren't any authorities around besides him.

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So— Ellis: Did you know any other girls who were flying? Vicky: Uh-uh. Uh-uh.

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Ellis: And what made you think you could do that? Vicky: There wasn't anything to tell me I couldn't. I mean, why not? >> Okay, then tell me about taking your mother up.

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>> Well, I just said, "Mother, you want to go up?" And she said, "Sure." >> How did she enjoy it? >> She enjoyed it.

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>> Then while you were in college, then did you continue flying? Well, just a little bit. Daddy and the instructor came up to, flew to Denton, and they interviewed some people and found a young man who was going to the other school in Denton, the co-ed school,

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and felt like he could check me out. So once or twice he came over and picked me up, and we went out to the airfield, and he'd take me around once and then I would fly. But I didn't have any purpose.

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There was no purpose for it. And by that time I was interested in the dance club. As I said, I was always interested in dance and I had written Dr. Duggan, who was head of the physical education department, beforehand and told her that I was interested in dance.

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And that summer I went to USC and I took Modern Dance from -- I can't recall his name right now, but I have seen his name on the credits of movies. And so I wrote her and told her that I had had that experience. And when I registered at TSCW, she told the girl to put me in her class.

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Of course, everybody had to take some form of PE. So I was in the modern dance, her class. At that year, she was president of the Southern Association of Physical Education, Health, Physical Education and Recreation.

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The convention was going to be in Atlanta. Her dance group was invited to dance at the convention and some places in between. Well, it turned out that I was selected to be one of the twelve who went, and I was the only one who was not majoring in physical education.

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But anyway, I was able to make that trip. And we practiced Saturdays and Sunday afternoons, and there just wasn't any time for me to Where were you and what do you remember about Pearl Harbor? I do not remember where I was.

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I was living in Dallas and going to SMU. I should know, everybody else remembers exactly what they were doing when it happened, but I do not. When you switched over to SMU, what were your goals then, your academic goals?

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Steele: An art major. I wanted to do advertising. What was your social life like once you got to SMU? Well, it wasn't very exciting.

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Tell me, when did you first hear about the training program for the WASP? I saw it. It was listed in the paper. There was an article about it in the Dallas Morning News, and that was sometime in the

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spring of '43. Explain what happened that was different after Pearl Harbor, as far as the people of America, how life changed for most Americans, and especially for women. Well, so many men were going into the service.

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There were lots of things that needed to be done, and women had to do them. My mother was not a riveter, but she did work at North American in the drafting department. And it was a time everybody was so patriotic, and everybody wanted to do their part, whatever they could.

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And we WASPs were just so happy to do something that we enjoyed doing. Kelly: How did you go about getting an application? I wrote to Jacqueline Cochran and told her that I was interested, and then I got an answer that Mrs. Sheehy would be in Fort Worth and that I could be interviewed on a certain day.

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So I did, and I did not have enough time then, and Mrs. Sheehy told me to get my time and the physical that I would have to have. So whenever I got the appointment, I drove back to Fort Worth to the military base over there for a physical.

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Do you remember what that physical was like? Well, I'm a little embarrassed to tell you what I remember about it, but I don't think I will now. But evidently, I passed it.

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[Laughter] >> Then how long did you have to wait before you got notification to report for training? Well, I made arrangements to take more flying, and as soon as I got to thirty-five hours, I wrote and I was told to report to Sweetwater on November 1, 1943.

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Kelly: In the meantime, had you met any other girls who were flying? Or anyone who was interested in the training program? So when you left to go to Sweetwater, were you by yourself? Vicky: Yes.

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Kelly: How did you get from Fort Worth? From Dallas to Fort Worth, I rode the train and I had a berth. I got to Sweetwater about 7 or 7.30 in the morning. I don't remember whether I walked from the train up to the hotel or—anyway, when I

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got to the Blue Bonnet Hotel, the lobby was just full of chattering women. But there was one I saw, she had all this blonde hair and a beautiful beige Charmaine Gabardine suit and wings just with great big diamonds sparkling all over them. And then when I looked at her face, I thought, "That must be what dissipation does to you."

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Because she was so blonde and so fair, but she looked so old. And it turned out that she was in my class, and she was Damon Runyon's wife. But he was sick, and she dropped out before we finished primary. Talk about how you—what you felt when you first went out to Avenger.

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Describe for me what Avenger Field was like. Well, it was an airfield with big hangars, more than one. I don't remember how many. And it had a -- well, I'm sure that some girls who came from other parts of the country have

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a bigger -- an expression -- I mean, an impression of what it looked like. But I don't, because I was -- I went to the fourth grade there. I was used to it. And I had relatives in Colorado City and relatives in Rotan, and I was just used to that area.

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It just looked like an airfield with some barracks. >> Describe your training at Avenger. Well, we had bed check every night, and we had to be up in the morning and march to breakfast and march to the flight line and march to ground school.

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Everywhere we went we had to fall in line. We were given what we call zoot suits. They were Army fatigues, and they were all size 44 or 46 for men. And even the tall girls were skinny.

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I got one that whoever had worn it before me, what girl, had -- the belt was stitched on with a buckle. She had ripped that belt back to the sidelines, and when you tied it up to your waist, the side seams came here, and then you had all this extra material.

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It was very unbecoming, but that's all right. It was comfortable, and we could fly in it. EC: Describe your ground school training. Well, as I said, we marched to ground school and we took weather and navigation and Mars

00:31:21.540 - 00:31:42.080

code and engines and -- did we have math? I don't remember. But I know this one girl that had the same instructor I did. And when the instructor asked how many hours we had, I said forty-five.

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And two of the other girls said about that many, and then this girl said a hundred and five. And we just, "A hundred and five hours?" But she was the dumbest thing in ground school.

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She didn't know anything. And our instructor gave her twenty hours and could not sew lower. So she was gone pretty soon. But grand school, it was just another class.

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Tell me, talk about your bayonets. Well we had, oh there was one that it was in the wintertime, November, December, and it snowed and it was cold. And one of them would always cover her hair, I mean her head at night.

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And at bed check, more than once, the woman with the flashlight would cross the whole room over to this girl's bed and pick up the covers to see if she was really under the hair. And we had -- well, there were two girls from California, one from Oklahoma, one from Tennessee,

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One from Chicago and I was from Texas. And we just got along fine. >> Describe what the training itself was like. Well, it was disciplined.

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What was it like? Kelly: Well, talk about the airplanes you flew. Well, we started out in the PT-19, low-wing, Fairchild. And then we—one girl, at least one girl, had soloed in it when we changed to the PT-17,

00:33:51.100 - 00:34:01.960

the bi-wing. And that one girl washed out in the bi-wing. But it was—oh, it was great to fly. It was lots of fun.

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And I don't know whether it was because the landing gear was closer together or not, but if we could fly the PT-17, we would be less likely to have ground loops in the AT-6. Well, I had a woman instructor, and she was real nice. It was just fun.

00:34:31.490 - 00:35:00.320

Tell me what the most exciting thing that you did while you were in training. Well it was sort of exciting the night that we were having night flying. And the first time that I had solo night flying, I was to go west to Midland. And when I saw the beacon on the airfield, I was to turn around and come back.

00:35:00.920 - 00:35:17.800

Well, there were so many gas lights from the oil fields that I could not see the beacon. I could not find the beacon. And I thought, "Well, I know I have flown far enough." So I just turned around and went back.

00:35:18.540 - 00:35:40.440

And then my radio went out, and I had to dive at the tower to get permission to land. Well, I got the green light, and they were doing some construction or something on the field, and there was a big pile of dirt. And as I came in, I was landing, I saw this big pile of dirt, and I thought, "Oh, I'm

00:35:40.500 - 00:35:58.040

going to hit it, I'm going to hit it." But I stood on the brakes and stopped, and I got stopped all right. Those two were pretty exciting things. Vander Hill: Describe what a cross-country flight was like.

00:36:00.850 - 00:36:19.640

Steele: Well, the first cross-country flight I made with the instructor, we were going east and we were supposed to land at Mineral Wells or someplace like that. And I was just flying along on the heading, and the instructor said, "Now, where—" Anyway, he said something and it made me realize that it was time to find the airfield.

00:36:19.780 - 00:36:48.740

I looked down, it was right down there. I had almost gone past it. Flying cross-country, you have to find the airfield. You have certain checkpoints that you have to recognize, and you have to find the

00:36:48.840 - 00:37:07.820

field and the way to land on it and call the tower. Well, I'm sure it's very different today. Not only does the airplane almost fly itself, but there are so many more of them in the air that it's crowded.

00:37:08.480 - 00:37:27.640

You have to keep looking. But— Kelly: Was there ever a time in training when you were really frightened? Well, I've told you about almost hitting the dirt.

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One time on the 2,000-mile cross country, I was coming back from flying over southern Georgia where there are lots of trees and everything, and the sun was warm, and I was kind of drowsing. And all of a sudden, the engine backfired.

00:37:44.520 - 00:37:59.740

Boy, I woke up and began to look for a place to land, an emergency landing. There was not any place. Fortunately, the engine was still running fine, but that kind of startled me. But not any real danger.

00:38:02.700 - 00:38:19.700

Kelly: Did any of your baymates wash out? Vicky: Yes, one of them did, and one of them washed back. How did that make the rest of the girls feel when the one washed out? Well, they were sorry to see her go, but it didn't affect our flying.

00:38:22.040 - 00:38:40.040

Describe how you felt when you got some new uniforms. Oh, well, they were--we were happy. As I said before, I had relatives living in Colorado City, and that's where I went for Christmas.

00:38:40.480 - 00:38:59.160

We had a few days off Christmas. They called Avenger to see if there was anybody else that would like to come, and one of the girls in 44-1 came. That was the first class to get the blue uniforms, so I got to see hers.

00:39:01.660 - 00:39:17.340

I got in on that a little bit ahead of the rest of the girls in my class. Did your mom and dad come out for that Christmas? No. No, but they came to my graduation.

00:39:19.120 - 00:39:42.380

Describe graduation. Well, the night before, I stayed in the hotel with them. So I don't know what was going on at the field, whether they had other lower classmen doing tricks on the graduates or not.

00:39:42.880 - 00:40:14.820

But we marched in our blue uniforms. And I don't remember who—General Arnold wasn't at our graduation, was he? I don't remember who awarded the wings, but my father was there to pin on the wings. And then one of my baymates' brother was flying a B-17, and he came to the graduation.

00:40:16.000 - 00:40:44.580

She was going to Dallas too, so she invited me to ride with him from Sweetwater to Waco. And then we took the train from Waco up to Dallas. It was fun to ride in the B-17. Let's go back and tell me about the instructors that you had at Avenger.

00:40:45.300 - 00:41:07.160

Well, as I had told you, I had a woman instructor first, and then I had Mr. Eckley for AT-6s. I liked him very much. And then we went back to the BT-13 for instruments. And that instructor's voice never stopped.

00:41:07.860 - 00:41:21.840

I was under the hood and this barrage of words, words, words. Look at this, look at that, look at this. And it just made me so nervous. One day I was crying.

00:41:23.000 - 00:41:40.460

And he taxied in and parked and I hadn't opened the hood. I was just crying. And anyway, finally I had to come out, and he saw what I was -- I don't remember what he said or anything, but anyway, I guess he knew.

00:41:43.520 - 00:41:55.020

And one of the other girls was upset like that. I just -- it made me so nervous. >> Did you think he was going to wash you out? >> I didn't even think about that.

00:41:57.200 - 00:42:15.420

Do you remember any specific Army check rides that you had to take? Well, just the normal ones. I did not really worry about check rides. I did not get nervous.

00:42:17.270 - 00:42:36.420

I do not know why. After you graduated, of your relatives, who came to your graduation? Well, my mother and father and two of their friends. I don't remember that anybody else came.

00:42:38.360 - 00:42:57.900

And then you went home to Dallas. Describe how you felt when you wore that brand new uniform when you got back to Dallas. Did you go to any particular parties or anything with your uniform on? Steele: I don't remember.

00:42:58.350 - 00:43:11.900

Kelly: Okay. I don't remember. When you got your orders, what did your orders say? Steele: They said to report to Paradfield, Sherman, Texas on June the 6th, which was—I

00:43:11.960 - 00:43:38.720

didn't know it at the time, but it turned out to be D-Day in Europe. But I had a car, so I drove from Dallas up to Sherman, which wasn't very far. One of my classmates was sent to Sherman also, and I knew that she would be in the only hotel in town.

00:43:39.160 - 00:44:03.260

I went in and found her at breakfast, and we rode out together to the field. We had been told that we should report to the commanding officer, but because it was D-Day, I suppose, he wasn't available. So we were sent to the director of flying, who happened to be up in the tower.

00:44:04.820 - 00:44:27.020

So we climbed all those steps up to the tower to report to him, and he greeted us very nicely, and I guess he was impressed. "She's real pretty." So anyway, that afternoon, Alice and I and the director of flying, who was an L.C. and

00:44:27.100 - 00:44:45.080

two majors, took five planes that had to be moved up to Enid, Oklahoma. And I was the navigator. I'm always the navigator. And I remember I was flying along on heading, and I looked out and there was a plane on

00:44:45.160 - 00:44:59.020

this wing and a plane on that wing and another plane over there. And Alice was way down there. Well, anyway, I just kept flying. I mean, there wasn't anything I could do about those planes on my wing.

00:44:59.400 - 00:45:19.540

And we had been taught to fly downwind leg and then a right turn on base leg. Downwind leg is parallel to the runway. And then base leg, and then another right-hand turn to come in and land. Well I started down on the -- turned on the base leg and looked up.

00:45:20.080 - 00:45:32.280

There weren't any planes around me. They were right over the field and they were peeling off and they landed ahead of me, just like fighter planes, I guess. I just proceeded to do what we'd been taught to do.

00:45:34.920 - 00:45:57.860

I never did learn to do the—I always landed like they taught us at Sweetwater. Kelly: Describe your quarters at Perrin. Well, they didn't know where to house us, and there wasn't room for us with the nurses. And we really didn't want to be housed with the WACs.

00:45:59.640 - 00:46:18.780

And we'd heard some stories, and we just didn't want to be with the WACs. And so they put us in -- I guess it had been built for a guest house. It was right behind the officers' club, and it was four separate rooms. I mean, this little building that had four rooms with door.

00:46:19.260 - 00:46:41.700

And the latrine was in another building outside. There were not even shades at the windows. There were two cots and two of these boxes with shelves for our clothes. We would wake up in the morning, no mirror except in our purse, tousled hair, sleep in

00:46:41.440 - 00:47:06.960

our eyes, we would put our blue zoot suits on over our pajamas and try to sneak down to the latrine. Well, the busboys in the officers' club kitchen would be out on the back porch cleaning garbage cans and when we appeared, they would whistle, which was a sign for all the pilots at breakfast

00:47:06.960 - 00:47:28.400

to watch us walk down. Oh, it was so embarrassing. But anyway, after I don't know how long we did that, we found a room in town, and I had a car so we could get back and forth.

00:47:30.280 - 00:47:44.460

And then they began to renovate those quarters and put in a bathroom in each room, and it was nicer. So later on, we moved back to the base. Kelly: Describe your duties.

00:47:45.010 - 00:48:07.340

Vicky: We were assigned to the engineering department, and we flew planes that had been redlined for any reason and repaired in the engineering department. We tested them. And then sometimes we flew slow time, put slow time on a new engine.

00:48:09.840 - 00:48:30.660

We also—there were planes that had to be moved from that field to another one. Mainly it was down to Kelly for storage. We ferried those. If a non-rated officer, we called them "ground pounders," needed to go someplace, we would

00:48:30.660 - 00:48:47.820

show for them. That's about it. I thought there was some—oh, after I went—I was sent back to Avenger Field for advanced instrument flying, and so I instructed instruments to some of the instructors.

00:48:48.280 - 00:48:57.900

Kelly: How long did you stay at Avenger? How long was that course? Vicky: Avenger was seven months, wasn't it? Six months.

00:48:58.080 - 00:49:11.000

Kelly: Yeah, seven months. But when you went to instrument school, then you had some. Vicky Redmond Oh, that was about six weeks, I think. Kelly And were the girls still in training there?

00:49:11.000 - 00:49:23.440

Vicky Redmond There were some of them. Kelly Tell me about that experience. Did you keep the same instructor the whole time? How many girls were in your class when you went back?

00:49:23.770 - 00:49:35.780

Vicky Redmond I don't remember. I don't know. I had a woman instructor for that. Kelly: And when you finished that, then you went back to Perin.

00:49:35.780 - 00:49:45.360

Beall: Went back to Perin, uh-huh. Kelly: And then what did you do with that training? Beall: Well, and then I instructed some of the instructors. Kelly: Describe how you would do that.

00:49:46.470 - 00:49:54.820

Beall: Oh, my. Well, I would— Kelly: Would they go under the hood? Beall: Yes, they would go under the hood.

00:49:56.380 - 00:50:16.980

How long would an average period of instruction last that you would be up? Steele: Well, less than an hour. We'd take off and land within an hour. Kelly: Of all the things you did while you were a WASP after you graduated, what did

00:50:17.040 - 00:50:29.440

you enjoy the most? Steele: I guess ferrying. Because you were flying, you were going someplace. Kelly: What was your social life like when you were at Perham?

00:50:30.760 - 00:50:43.720

Steele: Well, it must have been good, because there were seven girls there. Unfortunately, one of them was killed, and two of them were married, but the other four found husbands. Kelly: Okay.

00:50:44.720 - 00:50:55.500

Did you meet someone special there? Steele: Yes. My husband. What qualities did he have that attracted you particularly to him?

00:50:58.960 - 00:51:12.260

He was so nice to talk with. I think that was the main thing. It was so easy to talk with him. Tell me about the girl that was killed.

00:51:14.980 - 00:51:26.840

She hadn't been there very long, but she was nice. I liked her. But a lot of— Kelly: How was she killed?

00:51:26.940 - 00:51:48.300

Beall: She was flying. She had taken an airman up with her, which we did sometimes. I don't know what happened, but anyway, they crashed. Nobody ever knew whether she was trying to show off or whether he was—who knows what

00:51:48.340 - 00:52:04.760

happened. Kelly: And then what happened to her body after she was killed? Vicky: Well, I remember going to the funeral home and seeing his body, but her body was not—we could not see her.

00:52:06.100 - 00:52:29.880

It was shipped. One of her friends from another base came and took the body home to her family in Oregon. Since we were civilians, the family had to pay for all the shipping and taking care of the body and everything.

00:52:32.240 - 00:52:56.640

How did that affect the rest of you at that base? Well, I guess we were just--had to be more careful. You never know what's going to happen. When you started dating the young man that you married, what was his job at Perron?

00:52:57.180 - 00:53:13.880

He was an instructor. She might have been the flight commander. I don't remember. Kelly: Tell me how you felt, and how did you find out that the WASPs were going to be deactivated?

00:53:14.300 - 00:53:28.040

McMillan: We had a letter from Jacqueline Cochran. Kelly: How did you feel about that? McMillan: Well, I was disappointed. I wanted to stay in.

00:53:28.040 - 00:53:52.860

I wanted to keep flying. Kelly: When you were at Perrin, how many other WASPs were there with you? Vicky: Well, as I said, there were seven. And then after the last class, 4410, finished, they sent about, oh, almost twenty of those

00:53:52.940 - 00:54:06.200

girls to Perrin. Kelly: Okay, for that ten days? >> When you were deactivated, what was the last flight you took as a military pilot? What did you do?

00:54:07.600 - 00:54:17.420

>> I don't remember. I don't know. >> Were you ever able to fly with your boyfriend? >> Oh, sure.

00:54:18.940 - 00:54:39.440

Yeah, yeah. In fact, Betty Shipley resigned in order to get married, and her husband and mine were in the same class and had finished at the same field. And so, well, Ship had some aunts in Chicago.

00:54:39.980 - 00:54:55.800

We took a trip to Chicago, two planes, and Betty and I stayed with the aunt, and Ship and Stanley went to the hotel, or maybe they stayed with the other aunt. I've forgotten. But --

00:54:57.430 - 00:55:10.160

EC: That was a pretty hot date, wasn't it? VD: Yeah, yeah. It was nice being at Perrin, because we could have an airplane most any time, any weekend, you know.

00:55:11.110 - 00:55:15.900

EC: And so you did this on a weekend. VD: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. EC: This took a joyride.

00:55:15.910 - 00:55:30.580

VD: Yeah. And it was the day that all the rumor was going around that somebody was there to take pilots to be B-24 co-pilots. Well and Chip and Stanley were real in a big hurry to get off the base.

00:55:31.840 - 00:55:51.980

And we were in the plane, of course Stanley was in the front seat, and he was having a hard time getting the plane started. He was so nervous trying to get in a hurry. And I wanted to be real nice about it, and instead of saying, "Well, it won't start

00:55:52.080 - 00:56:10.840

unless you have the mixture, Rich," I just said, "Stanley, look at the mixture." And so then he got the plane started, and we took off. EC: By the time you were deactivated, were you engaged? VD: Uh-huh, yeah.

00:56:12.840 - 00:56:31.420

The day you were deactivated, tell me about anything that the air base did for the WASP. Vicky: Well, as I remember it, there was a parade and some kind of a little ceremony, and they took lots of pictures. That's all I remember.

00:56:31.680 - 00:56:37.880

Kelly: Okay. And you left Perrin, then where did you go? Vicky: I went to Dallas. Kelly: Okay.

00:56:38.200 - 00:57:05.920

Had you met Stanley's parents, or had he met your parents? He had met my parents, and he had asked my father for my hand. And I remember later my daddy asked me, "Well, did you egg him on?" And Stanley and I had flown down to San Antonio to meet, so I could meet his parents.

00:57:07.840 - 00:57:46.780

Tell me about your wedding. Well, it was a wedding in the cathedral in Dallas, and I had a maid of honor and a bridesmaid, And of course, Stanley had a best man and a groomsman, and I had a flower girl. Maybe I had two flower girls, two flower girls.

00:57:49.160 - 00:57:59.380

And my father gave me away. Kelly: Then did Stanley have some time off? Where did you go on your honeymoon? Vicky: We went to Kerrville.

00:58:00.300 - 00:58:19.500

We couldn't go very far. Gas rationing and everything. Of all your WASP experiences, what one thing did you enjoy the most? Was it in training or after you got out?

00:58:21.220 - 00:58:36.880

What was the highlight of your WASP experience? Just flying the AT-6. I think that was great. Kelly: Once you got married, then where did you live?

00:58:37.390 - 00:58:53.540

Vicky: Well, we lived right there in Sherman for a year. Kelly: And then eventually did he have to leave? Vicky: Well, yes. Then about a year later, he was sent to command staff school at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

00:58:55.300 - 00:59:19.380

That was only four months at that time. And then we were sent to Scottfield in Illinois, Belleville, Illinois, and we stayed there about two and a half years, I guess. And then we went to the Philippines, to Clark Field, and I had to wait about six months

00:59:19.480 - 00:59:26.820

to join him. How did you get to the Philippines? By ship. Troop ship?

00:59:28.380 - 00:59:48.780

What was that experience like? Vicky: Well, there were a lot of other wives going over, and there were four of us in my cabin. And one of them is still my friend, good friend.

00:59:52.380 - 01:00:21.800

We stopped in Honolulu, and then we stopped at Guam, and then in Manila. We stayed at the Manila Hotel. I remember the waiter said, "Welcome to the Manila Dining Room." And he said, "We never close.

01:00:22.280 - 01:00:41.960

No doors." Kelly: At some point then in your married life, you had a child. Tell me about that experience. Vicky: Well, we were stationed at Travis Air Force Base.

01:00:43.720 - 01:00:59.200

And you want me to tell you about having a baby? Tell me what that baby's name was. Vicky: Oh, we named him Harry Leon Moore. Harry because both my father and Stanley's father were named Harry.

01:01:01.300 - 01:01:19.280

And Leon because that was my maiden name. Kelly: And then eventually you had another son. Vicky: And then eventually we had another son, and we named him David. We had -- I always thought David was a pretty name, but I had two cousins who had named

01:01:19.340 - 01:01:35.460

their sons David, and I thought, "That's too many Davids in the family." So we picked Harry, and we wanted to give David a middle name beginning with L, but we couldn't think of one. So finally I said, "Well, David Lawrence sounds nice."

01:01:35.460 - 01:01:49.980

So that's what we named him. And then when he was about in the sixth grade, I discovered that Stanley's mother's aunts were Langdon. And I thought, "Oh, wouldn't that be -- if we just named him Langdon, and I wanted to

01:01:50.000 - 01:02:01.080

change his name." But Stanley said, "You can't do that without asking him." And we -- a six-year-old boy doesn't want to change his name, you know, and I'm so sorry we didn't do it.

01:02:02.060 - 01:02:21.860

Oh, it would have been -- but anyway, that's -- the places that you lived as an Air Force wife, which one did you enjoy the most? Vicky: Well, I enjoyed something about each one. Scott Field, we used to say, we had Scott Rot.

01:02:26.360 - 01:02:42.520

And at Travis, we could drive off into the Valley of the Moon and different places, and we enjoyed that. And we could go down to San Francisco, which was fun. And I enjoyed playing golf in the Philippines.

01:02:46.280 - 01:02:57.600

And I really enjoyed Japan. I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed the private rental, and I enjoyed living on the base and just seeing Japan and being there.

01:02:57.680 - 01:03:28.360

But then I also enjoyed Shaw Field in South Carolina. I was chairman of the study group, and there was a woman in Columbia who -- well, she would broadcast about different places in South Carolina. And so I contacted her, and she came over and gave us a series of six lectures about

01:03:28.500 - 01:03:49.520

South Carolina on different things. And then we visited Archibald Rutledge, who was the poet laureate of South Carolina. And he was living in an old plantation house near Columbia, I mean near the coast, that was used as tar in Gone with the Wind.

01:03:51.200 - 01:04:11.860

And he told us one story. He was sitting in the library and telling us that when, during the, was it the Revolutionary War when Swamp Fox was, or was it the Civil War? I'm mixed up on the wars.

01:04:12.360 - 01:04:45.460

But anyway, the Swamp Fox and his troops came up in the yard, and they were looking for for this -- now I'm all mixed up. Maybe the swamp fox was in the house. Anyway, the fellow on his side was there in the library with the family, and when the enemy rode up in the yard, there was this trap door or a secret door right by the fireplace, and he escaped

01:04:45.460 - 01:05:00.480

through the fireplace in this tunnel that went under the river and over on the other side of the river so that he got away. Now, that's—why can't I remember that ride? I don't know that story.

01:05:01.080 - 01:05:11.460

Well, anyway, it was a good story. Right. And looking back over your life, Madge, what is the one thing that you're most proud of?

01:05:12.200 - 01:05:30.600

Well, I think serving my country as a WASP and having two nice sons. Kelly. What do you feel that the legacy of the WASP will be? Vicky.

01:05:31.020 - 01:05:46.820

Well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I have—many people have thanked, not just me, but thanked the WASP for breaking ground for their place in the military.

01:05:53.680 - 01:06:07.640

And I don't know. Do you have an idea? Could you give me your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? Vicky: Well, she certainly did a lot.

01:06:08.530 - 01:06:35.720

She came from nothing, and she became a successful businesswoman, and she was able to do all kinds of things. I remember the story that Bird Granger told at her memorial service, that Bird went with her when she went to England, took the women over there to fly with the British, and she

01:06:35.820 - 01:06:54.100

said Jacqueline would go to meetings with the generals, and after the meeting she would come to Bird's room with a list of words that she had heard used, and Bird would tell her how to spell them and what they meant. And the next meeting she would hear Jackie use those same words.

01:06:55.120 - 01:07:20.900

So she really was ambitious and did, you know, she came from such a poor beginning. She accomplished so much. And as far as her association with the WASP, what do you feel that she did as far as the legacy of the WASP?

01:07:21.660 - 01:07:44.820

Well, there would have been no WASP without Jackie. What do you feel your legacy will be? Oh, my legacy? Just I was one of them, that's all.

01:07:46.140 - 01:08:06.300

Let me ask you, during your lifetime, there have been ups and downs, there have been glad times and there have been sad times. What has gotten you through those sad times? I've had such a good life, I really have.

01:08:08.580 - 01:08:34.400

I had a happy childhood, and of course there have been disappointments, but, I mean, you move on. I don't know. I'm just thankful for -- I thank God every day for being so good to me.

01:08:37.220 - 01:09:07.040

Children will be watching this for generations to come. What message would you like to give to those children that might encourage them and motivate them to succeed? Well, just to do your best in whatever you're interested in and work toward that.

01:09:12.180 - 01:09:32.760

I'm not a schoolteacher. Kelly: But you have four grandchildren. What would you like to tell those grandchildren? Well, to tell them to just do the best they can.

01:09:40.700 - 01:10:05.020

Don't dwell on the bad things, dwell on the good things. Is there anything that you would like to say or any story that you remember that you would like to tell or anything that I've left out that you would like to explain or talk about? I can't think of anything.

01:10:09.440 - 01:10:15.220

You've had a great life. God's been good to you. He certainly has. He certainly has.

01:10:15.220 - 01:10:24.640

And you've been good to us to let us interview you like this. Thank you so much. I've enjoyed it. I want to ask something, if you don't mind.

01:10:25.010 - 01:10:40.020

You mentioned something about the lower class playing tricks on the upper class. How would you know about that? What do you know about that? Well, I just heard that it would happen, but I don't remember our class playing tricks

01:10:40.020 - 01:10:57.940

on our upper class, and as I said, I wasn't there the night before, so I don't know whether they played it on my class or not. Do you have a favorite word? What do you mean, favorite word?

01:10:58.140 - 01:11:05.160

A word, favorite word. No. Do you? I have a couple.

01:11:05.460 - 01:11:13.560

I just want to. No? >> Okay. Anything else? >> No.

01:11:14.620 - 01:11:30.580

>> Let me stop for a second here. >> Okay. Tell me how you spend your time now. >> Now? Well, I visit my mother every day or two. >> Tell me about your mother.

01:11:30.940 - 01:11:45.760

>> Well, my mother is 105, and she is the sweetest thing, just as sweet, and nothing bothers her. She's just delightful. But she's in a wheelchair all the time,

01:11:46.120 - 01:11:57.120

and she can't help herself either into the wheelchair or out of it. And so it makes it difficult for me to take her anywhere. But I go over there, and we play Rummikub.

01:11:57.200 - 01:12:18.500

I feel like that will keep her mind stimulated. And she was doing pretty good until I was gone off and on for two weeks. And when we got to play in Romy Cube again, I could tell she had slipped quite a bit. But otherwise, she's --

01:12:18.500 - 01:12:31.500

>> How is her attitude? >> Well, it's so positive. It's always positive. And then I know that you've helped, done volunteer work.

01:12:31.600 - 01:13:02.580

Tell us about some of the volunteer work you've done. Well, some woman started the vision screening at our church. And when she left, somebody had to take her place, and I offered to do it. And so I did it for a good many years, and I still participate in it.

01:13:03.400 - 01:13:21.020

It's very rewarding to go to -- it's preschool children mainly, sometimes first graders -- and test them for vision screening. EC: And is this a free service that's offered to families? FL: Yes.

01:13:22.560 - 01:13:39.700

We go to the schools, different schools, and it's under the auspices of the Texas Society for the Prevention of Blindness. And it's just--. Well, it's very rewarding.

01:13:40.060 - 01:14:13.680

At this point, are you involved in anything at your church? Steele: Well, that's through the church, and not anything particular. There's a group that's working to—well, the object was to make money, but through a cookbook, and that's just a minor activity.

01:14:18.480 - 01:14:35.240

What's your favorite airplane? Eighty-six. The PT-17 wasn't bad. The Eighty-six goes faster.

01:14:35.460 - 01:14:50.680

That's right. That's right. Okay. Nurses' Aid at Travis during the Korean War.

01:14:51.680 - 01:15:15.300

And the boys would come back, some of them straight from the battlefield, and not even stop at the hospital in Japan and be brought in. And they'd call us at all hours of the night to come up and we would give them baths. And I remember one day they told me to take a certain bed in a certain room, and I got

01:15:15.380 - 01:15:27.340

my little pan of water and soap and everything and went down. It was a black boy. Well, that was all right. I started bathing him, and I don't know whether it was dirt from the battlefield or whether

01:15:27.460 - 01:15:47.980

it was skin coming off. But I had to change the water so many more times than ever before, because the washcloth would get black. And they were always so happy to be home, back in America, and so appreciative of anything

01:15:48.040 - 01:16:02.280

that we did to them. And those three little pictures are painted -- I guess they were postcards or something that one of them gave me. Kelly: Did they talk about their war experiences?

01:16:02.490 - 01:16:22.060

Vicky: I didn't try to talk to them about it, and I'm sure they weren't ready to. Kelly: What's the Christmas like now? Vicky: What? Kelly: What's the Christmas like now?

01:16:24.640 - 01:16:40.200

Now, last Christmas, my son David came, and we brought Mother over here, and one of my bridge friends came. We had dinner, and then the next day is her birthday, and another friend came and helped celebrate her birthday.

01:16:43.700 - 01:17:04.280

And then David and I flew out to Las Vegas. My other son was -- he's been married twice, and he was living with somebody else. And they married at one o'clock on January the first, so their anniversary is '01, '01, '01.

01:17:04.880 - 01:17:25.020

And I am so happy because she is a wonderful person. He's finally done it right. >> That's good, because he's probably going to hear this tape. >> Well, and then I'll tell you about my mother's 100th birthday.

01:17:25.150 - 01:17:38.580

>> Oh, good. >> She -- I got a cake, you know, just a regular cake, and then I put 100 candles on it. Well, it was the day after Christmas, and I had a Christmas mobile hanging from the light fixture.

01:17:38.840 - 01:17:52.960

Well, when I started to light the candles, I had lit about two when the whole thing went up and we had flames going like that, and I was scared to death it was going to catch fire, and everybody just blew. Well, we finally got it out without any tragedy.

01:17:53.920 - 01:18:17.120

Well, the next year I thought, "I won't let that happen." So I bought a big sheet cake, and I had ten candles, one for each decade, and then I had one more for the 101 and another one to go on. Well, she blew out the candles and all, and we had the cake.

01:18:17.620 - 01:18:40.060

Then somebody said we didn't take any pictures. So we arranged her in a chair with one grandson down at her knee like this, and Hal was holding what was left of the cake in front of her like this, and we were all concentrating on the person with the camera, and all of a sudden this cake slid off, hit mother in the lap

01:18:40.140 - 01:18:58.820

and down her leg and on the grandson. And I don't know whether we got pictures of that or not. I don't remember seeing any of them. So you just can't win.

01:19:01.300 - 01:19:18.740

You think maybe somebody else should plan her next birthday party. So what are you doing tomorrow for Mother's Day? Well, for a long time she's been--she lost a stone out of a ring, and she's been wearing that ring, so I bought her a pretty ring.

01:19:19.480 - 01:19:30.540

Oh, she's going to be so happy. Yeah. That's great. I guess there's nothing left to say but thank you so much.

01:19:30.540 - 01:19:42.660

Steele: Well, thank you. Kelly: We've enjoyed this. Steele: Well, I think you're doing something very worthwhile, and if you do enjoy it, it's rewarding, isn't it?

01:19:43.720 - 01:20:08.600

Yes, it is. Kelly: Why do you think the WASP history is important for anybody to know? Well, I think it's -- well, it's important to know anything in history, all histories. And it should encourage people that are not sure of themselves, maybe, do you think?

01:20:10.000 - 01:20:35.660

Would it give them encouragement to go ahead and do? Anybody that does something first is important, I guess. [Laughter.] Kelly: You are.

01:20:37.140 - 01:20:45.060

What other kind of answers have you gotten to that? Oh, you are. You are. I'm about to roll out someone's style. Okay. You are.

01:20:45.560 - 01:20:46.340

All right.