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[You can feel the prayers coming from the East, because that's what she's doing. That's what she does. That's what their order does. They pray for them.] All day. [It lists the things they pray for.] Isn't that amazing?

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They can only talk, I think it's two times a day, to other nuns. Otherwise they're behind this little window, you know. She said they can go, you know, if there is. Isn't there another one on the East Coast, a cloistered nun? I know the one in California. Right.

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Okay. It's just a real... Okay, we're rolling. I'm Deanie Parrish, and we're in the home of Lucille Wise in Denver, Colorado.

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She was a WASP, class 43-7. Today is the 12th of September, 2000. Okay, Lucille, if you'll tell us your name and when and where you were born, and we'll go from there. I'm Lucille Doll Wise. I was born in Larned, Kansas, on a farm in Pawnee County. Actually, I was in Pawnee County, outside of Larned, about seven miles.

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My father was a farmer, and my grandfather homesteaded our farm. What are your earliest recollections of being on that farm? Oh, it was a wonderful place to grow up. I remember the old tractors and the animals and the big--we have pictures of the big blizzards and the snow banks.

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And it was just a very happy time. Yeah. And, of course, I went to a one-room schoolhouse for my first and second grades, and that was quite a nice experience. Tell me what that was like.

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Well, it was a small one-room schoolhouse. There were about 18 students in all, with one teacher. And there were only two of us in first grade and second grade, my cousin, who lived on the adjoining farm, and myself. And we had loads of fun.

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We got a very good basic education in reading and writing and arithmetic. We moved to town in third grade, so I didn't go any farther than in that one-room schoolhouse. In fact, I think they closed it. Tell me about the furniture in that schoolhouse.

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It was, well, pretty bare. It was heated with a coal-burning stove, and in the wintertime it would be freezing cold until they got the fire started. The older boys would help carry the wood and get the fire started for us. And how many grades were in that one room?

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There were eight grades. How did you get to school? Usually my mother took me. We had a car, and then in nice weather I would walk home.

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It was about three-fourths of a mile, and I usually had someone else to walk at least part of the way with me. But it was fun. Did you have siblings? Yes, I had two brothers and a sister.

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They're all younger than I am. My father was the only one who had the opportunity to go to school in the country, because they all came along after we moved to town. My father had a--his livestock business was starting to grow, and he was away from home quite a lot.

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So my mother didn't like being on the farm with so many children by herself, so we moved to town. But we always spent our summers on the farm. When school was out, we'd move back to the farm, and that was rather fun. The farmhouse had no electricity and no running water, so it was rather primitive.

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But we still enjoyed being out on the farm, and my mother loved it. It was her favorite place. Right. Tell me about your grandparents. Let me get her to--hang on one second.

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My grandparents--my father's parents were both born in Germany, and they came over to the United States and settled in Ohio and settled there. And then they came west to get the farmland and start farming. And they were giving--almost giving away land at that time.

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I think he bought his farm for about $6 an acre. And they were quite prosperous, actually. My mother's family also homesteaded, and they came from Connecticut. But they didn't have as much land.

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They were not quite as prosperous. But my father's family--my grandparents died before I remembered them. But my mother's parents I remember very well. I was very close to them.

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Did they live close to you? Yes, they did. Just a block away, actually. They also had moved to town. And in the summertime--tell us about your summer vacations out on the farm.

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What would you do? Well, we moved--the main reason for going to the farm, besides the fact that Mother loved it, was that we were harvesting wheat. And so we would cook for the harvest teams.

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We kept the house furnished--both houses furnished. So we just had to move our belongings, our clothes, and so forth from one to the other. But it was rather primitive. I didn't enjoy it as much, especially when I was older,

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because it cramped my social life a little bit. As a young child, tell me what Christmas was like at your house. Well, I suppose it was about like any other family. We always had a Christmas tree, and we always had gifts.

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Not very many, because I was growing up during the Depression years. I remember the Depression very well. But we always had gifts, and candy, and oranges, and nuts. And we had so many relatives.

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My mother was one of 13 children, and my father also had quite a few relatives. So we always had a lot of relatives around all of the holidays--big holiday dinners. Would your grandparents spend Christmas at your house, or would you spend it at theirs? Not so much at theirs.

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We usually went to somebody else's house. But it was quite often some place in the country that had a big house. After you moved into town and started school, do you remember any special teachers that you admired?

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Oh, I do remember quite a few. I remember the teachers in the one-room schoolhouse very well. Tell me about those. They were both young, probably 19 or 20.

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And at that time, I don't think you had to have a teacher's degree, I don't know, a certificate, a college education. But they were very good, and I just remember them. And no, I don't remember any special teachers after I moved to town.

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It was quite an adjustment going from a small school to a big one in the city, and having 30 children in my third-grade class. But I adjusted pretty well, and I enjoyed school. As you were growing up in elementary and junior high, for example,

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what outside activities did you participate in? I would say mostly music. I took piano lessons. I started piano lessons when I was five years old.

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We had a baby grand piano at the farm, and we moved it into town. I took piano and organ most of my life. I played the piano for the glee clubs, and I played the bass violin for the orchestra. Did you come from a musical family?

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I think there was music on both sides of the family, not professional musicians, but there was a lot of musical talent. When you then went into high school, what was your favorite subject? Oh, I think math was one of my favorite subjects, math and English.

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History was not my favorite subject. Aside from playing the organ and the piano for the glee clubs and things, what other activities did you participate in? That's about it.

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The schools were rather strapped for cash. We didn't have any sports for girls at all. They had sports for the boys, but not for the girls. No basketball, no clubs, nothing.

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So any amusement was outside of school, just with our own groups. How many years did you play piano for the glee club? Well, I think all four years I was in high school. And in the band?

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I guess all four years. Not the band, but the orchestra. Did you wear uniforms? Yes. Well, no, it was just the marching band that had uniforms.

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I couldn't carry my bass file in the marching band. Did they use the orchestra for things other than school activities? I don't recall that they did. In high school, what were your main social events like?

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There were very few. It was completely different than it is now. We had a junior/senior banquet, but I don't believe we had a dance. It just was frowned on.

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There were some private dances, but no school activities that I recall. In high school, what were your ambitions? What did you hope to be? I really thought I'd pursue a business career.

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I was interested in business. And that's what I took mostly when I went to college, were business courses, economics and bookkeeping and accounting, that sort of thing. When you moved into town, could you walk to school?

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Oh, yes. It was a small town, and the high school was quite close. Do you remember your high school prom? Did you have a prom? No, we just had a banquet. Tell me about your high school graduation.

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I can't remember my graduation. We did have, in the auditorium, we had a nice auditorium, and we had a graduation ceremony, a baccalaureate, and then we had a graduation. I'm not even sure we had gowns.

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Yes, we did have some gowns, caps and gowns. And it was mostly the relatives who came to see us like it is today. What kind of student were you? Oh, I was a very good student. I was second in my class.

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I received a scholarship when I came to college here in Denver. So I was a good student. I don't know why I didn't go on to get my degree. Lucille, as you were going through school, who were your role models? I just don't know. I never thought about it.

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I was quite interested in the Lindbergh flight. I remember that. Will Rogers. I would say probably some of my relatives. I had an aunt that I admired very much, and my grandparents I dearly loved.

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And my mother was quite a role model also. When you graduated from high school, then what did you do that particular summer? I worked on the farm as we always had. And that fall then, where did you start school?

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I started here in Denver at Colorado Women's College. How did your mom and dad feel about your leaving home? Well, I think they were sorry I was going quite so far away, but that was where I wanted to go. They were quite supportive.

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Do you know what attracted you to that particular school? They were sending a lot of advertising literature, and they came by to interview people. They were seeking students about that time, and they offered me a scholarship. And it just sounded wonderful to me.

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They had so many activities that I would not have been able to--that I hadn't been able to do in Kansas. It sounded very nice, and it was a nice school. I'm sorry it closed. It's no longer in existence. Do you remember how you got from home to Denver?

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By train, of course. Did you know anyone else that was coming to that school? Not a soul. And what gave you the courage to come by yourself?

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Well, I wasn't frightened at all. I was excited. Well, the first time I went, my parents drove me out. I didn't go by train.

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When I came home for vacations, I came by train. But the first time, they took me out there. And when you came to Denver to school, what were your ambitions? What were you going to study, and what were you going to do?

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I think I was going to go into business, some kind of business administration. That's what I planned. I knew I didn't want to be a teacher, and I never in the world thought of flying. You know, that was the farthest thing from my mind.

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So I liked office work, but I wanted to get into the administrative part of it, or perhaps banking. Where did you live? In college, in a dormitory.

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It was required. We all lived in dormitories. Since this was an all-girls school, how did you meet the opposite sex? Oh, we had a lot of dances.

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Okay, and then you did dance, right? Yes, yes. There were some boys' schools around that they came down for our dances. So we had quite a few dances.

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But it was hard to make good friends among the boys. We'd see them once, and quite often the same ones didn't come back. But we had a good time. Do you remember any of your social activities outside of school?

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We did--of course I took horseback riding. That was one of the courses. We went ice skating in the wintertime here at the city park. It was so cold then, the ice froze very, very thick.

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They had a cabin, a cottage up in the mountains. Sometimes we'd go up there for weekends. I don't think any of us skied. I don't think--there were very few that had skis.

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People just didn't have that much in those days. We took a field trip. I took a trip down to Mexico. What was the purpose of the field trip?

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It was just something to do for Easter vacation. The ones that didn't go home for Easter could go on this trip. We went through Albuquerque and Santa Fe and down across the border into Mexico. Upon you were in school, did you continue to use your music?

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Yes, I still took music and organ lessons at college also. Did you have an occasion to perform with that music? I don't think I did in college. I don't think I played at any of the recitals.

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I was good, but I wasn't one of the best, most talented students in music. Your purpose then in taking music lessons was what? Just because I enjoyed it. I thought perhaps I would become a church organist, but I never got there.

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While you were in college, then, did you go home for Christmas, and what was that like? It was just a lot of fun to be with my family again. As I said, I went on the train, and it was a pretty long ride. But it was wonderful being home and the same things.

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Of course, I had my friends and my family, and the time went very fast. Did you make lasting friendships either in high school or in college? Yes, I did in high school. One of my very best friends, I corresponded with her until she died recently.

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But in college, I didn't keep my friendships up very long, maybe 10 or 15 years. But after I joined the WASP, I was too busy to write letters, and we lost contact. When you finished graduating after your two years of college, then what did you do? Well, I went back home, and I looked at various universities in Kansas.

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But I decided I was tired of studying. I don't know why, but I made good grades, but I was still not anxious to go back to school. So I got this job in Wichita, Kansas, working for the federal government. It paid very well, and so I moved to Wichita at the age of 20 and found a place to live.

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Not knowing anyone there, once again, I didn't know anybody. But I got acquainted, and I liked Wichita. Okay, and what were you doing with the government while you were in Wichita? It was with the--well, they call it Internal Revenue Service now, but it was checking income tax returns.

00:18:25.000 - 00:18:39.000

They had just started income tax returns about 1940. It was a new thing. And so I was proofreading and doing clerical work, checking the returns. And where were you living, Luzu?

00:18:39.000 - 00:18:58.000

I lived in a rooming house for a while, and then my cousin, who had lived on the farm next to ours, moved to Wichita also. And then we roomed, shared an apartment together. She was the same age as I was. She was the one that I went through first grade and second grade with.

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And what kind of outside social activities did you participate in? Well, I had a very good friend who also worked at the same office, and she and I-- oh, we would go bicycling and horseback riding and bowling and all kinds of sports. Do you remember where you were and what your reaction was when you heard about Pearl Harbor?

00:19:24.000 - 00:19:40.000

Oh, I do. Yes, I do. Tell us about it. We were sitting, my cousin and I, and two fellows were--it was a Sunday afternoon. We were sitting around listening to some music when the announcement came over the radio.

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We were just sitting there talking and trying to think what we were going to do for the afternoon. I don't think I realized the importance of the announcement, but the two boys certainly did. They took it very seriously. How did World War II affect your family?

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Oh, I think everyone was affected by World War II. Our family was affected because my brother, who was five years younger than I, joined the Navy. He was just out of high school, and he joined the Navy. And then I started flying, so there were two of us in the service.

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The other two were too young to be involved. But the rationing, I think we all remember how the rationing was. It was quite difficult. They rationed food and gasoline and tires.

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It was hard. They had a hard time when something would break down. You couldn't replace it. If something went wrong with your furnace or your refrigerator or your stove,

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you couldn't buy a new one because they weren't manufacturing anything. So it was a rough time and a very worrisome time. Do you remember your mom and dad's reaction when your brother joined the Navy? Well, I wasn't home at that time.

00:21:11.000 - 00:21:31.000

Do you remember how you felt about it? I just knew that everybody else was doing it, and he had to do it too. Tell me your first recollections about airplanes. Well, I remember when we were on the farm and I was about five years old,

00:21:31.000 - 00:21:51.000

someone--I think it was a very distant relative--came through and landed in our pasture. He was a barnstormer. And they wouldn't let me get too close to him. I don't even recall very much about him, but I remember that he did land in our pasture.

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And then when I was about 11, there was a flying circus came to town, and I went up for a ride. My father and took all of us children, all four children. My mother would not get on the plane.

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But that was really my first airplane ride. And how was it? Oh, it was very short. It was fun. Did it give you a feeling of--or make you want to be the pilot?

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No, I never even thought of that. And then when was your next thoughts about the airplane? Well, I guess when I moved to Wichita, because it was the air capital of the country. There were so many manufacturing plants, and everybody I met was working,

00:22:39.000 - 00:22:54.000

either flying or else they were working for an aircraft factory. So one day somebody took me up for a ride, and that's when I decided that's what I wanted to do. Did you just go up for a pleasure ride? It was just a pleasure ride.

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And then how did you go about learning how to fly? Well, after that, the next day I was so enthused, I told my cousin that I wanted to take flying lessons. And she said, "Well, there's somebody in her office that she knew

00:23:14.000 - 00:23:28.000

whose husband was just starting to instruct." And he would give me a very friendly price because he wanted students. He wanted to build up his instructor time. And so that was Mr. Weldon Booth.

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And so I started with him, and he was awfully nice. He'd come by in his car and take me to the airport and take me back home afterwards, because I didn't have a car. Hardly anyone had a car, and getting a bus out to the airport was kind of difficult.

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So that's how I got my first instruction. I wish he had stayed, but unfortunately he joined--became an airline pilot and left. So I had to take another instructor. Okay. Flying lessons, would you do it after work every day

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or would you just do it on weekends? Mostly on weekends. Tell me about your first solo. Well, it was just a wonderful feeling.

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You're a little scared, but it was-- You were flying. It was a Cub. My first--I don't know how many hours.

00:24:21.000 - 00:24:38.000

We were always in Cubs because that's what Wendell Booth had. It was just wonderful. I made a nice--I think I made three landings. Were there other girls learning to fly? Yes, there was a flying school there at the airport.

00:24:38.000 - 00:24:51.000

There must have been quite a few. I didn't know them very well, but there were at least five WASPs that learned to fly in Wichita and went to Sweetwater from there. But at the time you were taking lessons, you were by yourself.

00:24:51.000 - 00:25:08.000

I didn't know any of them. No, I didn't know any of them. And then when did you first hear about the training program? I read about it in a newspaper article. I think it was a newspaper. It might have been a magazine, but I think the newspaper.

00:25:08.000 - 00:25:29.000

It said that Jacqueline Cochran was looking for WASPs, and there must have been an address to contact because I got in contact with them. And I applied as soon as I received a reply. And after you received a reply from them, what did you then do?

00:25:29.000 - 00:25:47.000

They told me--they asked me to--they said I would have to be interviewed and that they would let me know when they would be in the Wichita area. But I didn't wait for that. I went down to Houston for my interview to speed things up.

00:25:47.000 - 00:26:05.000

And I think that's one of the smartest things I did. And I had my interview, and very soon after that I received word that I had been accepted, depending on my physical. And then I went to the Topeka Air Force Base for my physical, and it all went very smoothly.

00:26:05.000 - 00:26:14.000

And I reported in May. Do you remember who interviewed you? No, I don't. It was not Cochran. But I just don't remember.

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Several people have asked me that, and I don't remember. It must have been Ethel Sheehy. At the time you went down to Houston, did you know any of the other girls who were interested at all? No, no. I didn't.

00:26:29.000 - 00:26:49.000

I met some on the train because I took the train down. It was an overnight trip. I had a sleeper. But there was a classmate, Lois Durham, was on the same train. When you first started flying lessons, how did your mom and dad feel about that?

00:26:49.000 - 00:27:02.000

Well, I didn't tell them for a while. I waited until after I'd soloed. And I thought there was no point in worrying. But this was about the time my brother was entering the Navy.

00:27:02.000 - 00:27:20.000

So then after I soloed, I told them. Well, they thought that was just fine. And then when you received your orders to go to Sweetwater, what were your expectations? All I thought about was flying, the flying part of it.

00:27:20.000 - 00:27:38.000

I just hadn't thought about all of the rest of it, all of the discipline and the military life. I hadn't thought about that. It was something of a surprise. It was a cultural shock, really. Because we gave up all our pretty clothes and our social life and our cars.

00:27:38.000 - 00:27:56.000

And we went in for some six grueling months. But we were so happy. We just loved being there. Do you remember the reaction of your brother when he knew that you were going into a flying school? No, I don't know whether he even knew about it.

00:27:56.000 - 00:28:11.000

At the time, he was out in the South Pacific on a ship. And he was so seasick the whole time, I don't think he had any time to think about me. And my parents, I know that they were concerned about me. But my brother was in a much more dangerous situation.

00:28:11.000 - 00:28:27.000

So they took my flying pretty much in stride. They did come down for my graduation, which was nice. As difficult as it was to travel in those days. Do you remember how you got from Kansas out to Sweetwater?

00:28:27.000 - 00:28:40.000

By train. On the way, did you meet other girls who were also going into training? Yes, there was at least one. There might have been more. I can't remember how we got from the train to the air base.

00:28:40.000 - 00:28:54.000

They must have taken us to the Blue Bonnet Hotel. And then they must have sent the cattle truck. Or else we went by taxi. I just don't recall. Do you remember when you first arrived at that air base?

00:28:54.000 - 00:29:07.000

Your thoughts? Well, it was awfully muddy. I remember the mud. They had had a lot of rain, and they had just built new barracks. We were the first to occupy those barracks.

00:29:07.000 - 00:29:19.000

But they didn't have the sidewalks in. So we had to wade through all of this mud to get to our barracks. And had to be kind of careful with our shoes. It was about what I expected.

00:29:19.000 - 00:29:33.000

I had seen pictures of air bases and the barracks, and it wasn't too different. And the flight line, how did that impress you? Oh, that was wonderful. All those airplanes, they looked so big to us.

00:29:33.000 - 00:29:50.000

Before you arrived, did you know what kind of airplanes you would be training in? I had an idea. I didn't know exactly. I don't think I knew what a PT-19 was or an AT-6. But I knew that we'd have a chance to fly much bigger aircraft

00:29:50.000 - 00:30:05.000

and much faster aircraft than we ever dreamed of. After you arrived, tell me what happened. How were you assigned living quarters? And tell me about those quarters.

00:30:05.000 - 00:30:24.000

Well, we had a meeting in the mess hall. It was there that we teamed up. We kind of decided among us who was going to room. Just a group sitting around the table, we decided we'd all room together.

00:30:24.000 - 00:30:37.000

And I think they may have treated other classes differently. They may have assigned them to special barracks, but ours, they didn't. We chose our own, pretty much. And then we just carted our suitcases down to that place.

00:30:37.000 - 00:31:02.000

They gave us some sheets and pillowcases and towels. And we made our beds and unpacked what there was to unpack, which wasn't very much. Can you tell me what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make? I think it was the--well, there was just no recreation, no amusement.

00:31:02.000 - 00:31:26.000

We just did nothing but fly and talk about flying and go to school. On weekends, we would go into the city of Sweetwater, but there wasn't much to do there. We didn't have--I think later on they may have had some recreation there of us, but they didn't have anything at that time.

00:31:26.000 - 00:31:48.000

Could you tell me about your bay mates? Yes, there were seven in our--I think there were only supposed to be six in each bay, but there were seven in ours because they were crowded. And I made one good friend, Neva Calderwood, and I kept in touch with her until she died recently.

00:31:48.000 - 00:32:14.000

But as out of those seven, only three of us graduated. It was sad to see them leave one by one. Do you know what qualities did you have that got you through that training and graduation when half of your class washed out?

00:32:14.000 - 00:32:28.000

Well, I think luck had something to do with it. If you got a good instructor and one that you could communicate with and felt comfortable with, I think that made a lot of difference. And I think determination.

00:32:28.000 - 00:32:45.000

I was not sure when I got there that I would make it, but then I looked around at all the ones who had made it, and I decided if they could do it, I could too. That was the thing, I think, that made me work very hard. And I was very careful not to ever break a rule.

00:32:45.000 - 00:33:01.000

I didn't want to wash out for something silly like that. So I was a very good girl all the time I was there. Could you tell us some of those rules? Well, not dating an instructor was the main one.

00:33:01.000 - 00:33:15.000

And you weren't supposed to do any drinking. Smoking, of course, was allowed. How did you feel when your bay mates washed out? It happened so fast.

00:33:15.000 - 00:33:30.000

We didn't--they would be there in the morning, and we'd go back in the afternoon, and they'd be gone, and they'd pack them up and got them out so fast. We never had a chance to say goodbye to any of them that I recall. But I liked the ones that left.

00:33:30.000 - 00:33:53.000

There were two in our bay who were twins, red-headed twins. And when the first one washed out, I felt that the second one didn't really have a heart in it at all. It was sad to see them go because they were very likable girls. How much longer did the ones stay after the first one?

00:33:53.000 - 00:34:06.000

It was just a few weeks, I think. And do you know why they washed out? Well, I don't know. I think the reason that most instructors washed out their students

00:34:06.000 - 00:34:23.000

was because they felt they were dangerous, that they were not safe pilots. Tell us about ground school. Oh, I thought that was very easy. I had already passed the written--you know, for the pilot's license, for the private pilot license.

00:34:23.000 - 00:34:33.000

And it was a little bit more advanced, but I didn't find it difficult at all. We didn't study very much. It was very easy. But it was good.

00:34:33.000 - 00:34:49.000

We needed it. We needed the advanced navigation and the advanced meteorology. Could you tell me about your solo at Avenger, your first solo? I ground looped.

00:34:49.000 - 00:35:14.000

You know, you had to use so much more left rudder when the instructor wasn't in the cockpit. And that guy was out at this auxiliary field, and I kept using that rudder, but it still wasn't enough, and I just turned around and taxied back and took off again. And my second try was fine.

00:35:14.000 - 00:35:34.000

The instructor got a lot of criticism. He got balled out because he said I should not have been allowed to take off again in a plane that had ground looped. But, you know, the wing hadn't touched anything, so I got along fine, except for that first ground loop. Could you tell us about the auxiliary fields, what they were used for?

00:35:34.000 - 00:35:51.000

They were used for practice landings. They were just little pastures, and we'd go out there. We'd fly from Avenger Field to the auxiliary field, and there was a little building there. I don't think it was a bathroom.

00:35:51.000 - 00:35:58.000

I don't know what was in the building. Do you remember the building? Don't you remember the auxiliary fields? [phone rings]

00:35:58.000 - 00:36:03.000

Want me to stop? Yeah. That's wonderful. Okay, I'm rolling.

00:36:03.000 - 00:36:12.000

Okay. Who was your primary instructor? Do you remember his name? My primary was Jack Reinhart, and I think he was a very good instructor.

00:36:12.000 - 00:36:33.000

He had six in our class, six or seven, and all but one of us graduated. I gave him a lot of the credit because he gave us a good basic instruction, a good start. He got the basics down first, then it was easier to finish the other plane. Tell me about your schedule when you were in training.

00:36:33.000 - 00:36:52.000

It was a busy schedule. Of course, we marched everywhere, and we'd get up early in the morning. I don't know what time, and we'd march to breakfast, and then we would come back and get ready for either flight line or ground school.

00:36:52.000 - 00:37:12.000

Half of our class would go to flight line, and the other half would go to ground school, and we alternated. And of course, we marched everywhere we went. How about your food? Where did you eat? The Mass Hall. It was pretty good food.

00:37:12.000 - 00:37:27.000

We had a pretty good appetite, of course, because we were very active. The schedule was busy because sometimes with night flying, we would be flying night as well as all day long. It was a long, long day.

00:37:27.000 - 00:37:49.000

What was the part that you enjoyed most about flying? Oh, just the thrill of feeling that engine and going up in the sky and the freedom. It's a feeling of freedom that I really can't describe, but it was a wonderful feeling. The scenery, everything looked so pretty up there,

00:37:49.000 - 00:38:01.000

and you could just do whatever you wanted to with that airplane. While you were in training, did you have any time off? We had one weekend off. What did you do?

00:38:01.000 - 00:38:18.000

Another girl and I drove to Dallas. She had a car, and we made--I don't know how she got the gasoline, but we drove to Dallas, and we stayed at the Adolphus Hotel, but we got a room there for some reason, and we had some good meals.

00:38:18.000 - 00:38:33.000

And we got to put on some dresses for a change. Did you meet any of the opposite sex? Oh, I think we met a few of them, but very briefly. Not to mention much.

00:38:33.000 - 00:38:56.000

When you finished primary, what were you flying in primary? The PT-19, and then we went to basic, the BT--13 or 15, I don't remember which it was. And how was that different from the primary training? Well, of course it was much heavier and much more powerful, and it had a radio.

00:38:56.000 - 00:39:10.000

We could talk to the tower with that. And it had variable pitch propellers, so it made a lot of noise. I didn't like the basic trainer. I didn't do well in it, but somehow I got through.

00:39:10.000 - 00:39:24.000

To me, it just didn't want to fly. It was a heavy plane, and I just found it difficult to fly, but somehow I passed my check routes. And then when you finished basic training, then what did you start flying?

00:39:24.000 - 00:39:40.000

Then the AT-6, and everybody loved the AT-6. It had retractable landing gear, and it was still more powerful. And it was just a wonderful plane to fly. In that AT-6, did you do some cross-country flying?

00:39:40.000 - 00:39:58.000

Oh, we did cross-country in everything, even the primary trainers, we did cross-country. Could you tell me about one of those trips? Well, they were rather routine. We'd have to get down on the floor and draw our platter, of course,

00:39:58.000 - 00:40:15.000

and our compass heading and so forth. Navigation was much more primitive in those days than it is now. And then there would be a group of us, but somehow we got scattered, so we didn't see very many other planes around us.

00:40:15.000 - 00:40:27.000

And we would fly to this other field, and then we'd take off again and go back. It was very routine. But we did need the navigation experience, because most of us were flying cross-country after we graduated.

00:40:27.000 - 00:40:45.000

Okay. Can we stop for a second? While you were in training, were there any fatalities? There were, but not in my class. Our class had no fatal accidents at all.

00:40:45.000 - 00:40:58.000

We had a few minor accidents. But they didn't—you know, there were just rumors. Someone would say, "I heard a plane went down last night," or, "I heard a plane went down the other day at such-and-such a place."

00:40:58.000 - 00:41:13.000

What class? But they never told us any of the details, and we just didn't talk about it. On any of your cross-countries, did anything unusual happen? I don't think so.

00:41:13.000 - 00:41:29.000

We had one girl who got lost on every trip she took. She always landed somewhere else, but she managed to graduate. No, it was very routine. Okay. Tell me about your uniforms when you were in training.

00:41:29.000 - 00:41:43.000

We didn't have any. We wore the zoot suits the entire time, the kind that buttoned up. They didn't even have zippers. Then for our dress uniform, we had khaki pants and a white cotton shirt and an overseas cap.

00:41:43.000 - 00:41:56.000

That was what we wore on parades and so forth. I didn't get a uniform. They weren't issued until about a year after I graduated. For those who don't know, what is a zoot suit?

00:41:56.000 - 00:42:14.000

It's a cotton coverall, olive green or olive drab, I guess. One piece, and as I said, it buttoned up and it had a belt. They didn't make them for women, of course. We wore men's zoot suits.

00:42:14.000 - 00:42:29.000

They're like a fatigue. They were all too big for us. We had to roll up the sleeves and the pants, legs. The belt, we usually tied because it was too long to do anything else with.

00:42:29.000 - 00:42:51.000

But they were very comfortable, and I didn't mind wearing them at all. Sometimes I'd wear a white shirt underneath. As I say, they were comfortable and about as cool as anything could have been because they were cotton. While you were in training, were you able to keep up with your music, or did you use that music in any way?

00:42:51.000 - 00:43:08.000

No. I was there, of course, during the summertime, and it was pretty warm in the summertime. Tell me about what you would do at night in the summertime when it was really hot. Some of the girls would move their cots outside and sleep outside, but I never did.

00:43:08.000 - 00:43:28.000

I was lucky. I had a bed right by the window. I don't know how I got that. Somebody was very nice to me, so I never did. It would have been nice to sleep out under the stars, but there were worries about snakes. There was a rumor that some girl found a snake curled up in her bed.

00:43:28.000 - 00:43:50.000

So that put an end to that. Once that rumor got started, they didn't sleep outside. During training, when the girls in your bay washed out, then did you get other girls in your bay? Yes. Our class then would condense to make room for the new classes. I don't remember who those girls were.

00:43:50.000 - 00:44:09.000

It was toward the end, and we had plenty of space for that time. It was pretty crowded when we had seven to our bay, and seven girls using the same bathroom. Do you remember anything special about night flying? What do you mean?

00:44:09.000 - 00:44:35.000

Did you have any night flying experiences? No. It was a little scary. I was never afraid of flying, except the night flying worried me, because the skies were so full of airplanes. There was so much traffic around the field. We were assigned certain—we'd take off and we'd go to certain practice areas at a certain altitude.

00:44:35.000 - 00:44:57.000

But a lot of people got confused and would end up in the wrong place. I was worried about mid-air collisions, I think. But I managed to get through it. Flying at night is almost like flying on instruments. We hadn't had enough instrument training, as far as I was concerned, to feel really comfortable with night flying.

00:44:57.000 - 00:45:19.000

Tell me about your cross-countries. How did you navigate? Just by dead reckoning. We'd follow that course and we'd try to compute the upper wings to see if we were staying on course. We would use towns and roads and railroad tracks, that sort of thing, rivers if there were any.

00:45:19.000 - 00:45:49.000

Of course, they were short trips, just an hour or two. Do you recall when other classes graduated, what kind of ceremony would there be? That was quite a thrill. They would have a band from somewhere and we'd all get dressed up and all of the classes would parade. Then there would be a speaker, usually someone from Washington, a general or a general's wife.

00:45:49.000 - 00:46:22.000

Jackie Cochran came to one graduation while I was there. She couldn't come to every one of them. I've seen the movies of us and we could really march. We were just precision. We were so envious. We would all wait for the day when our turn would be in that graduating class. Before you graduated, were you given an option of where you would be stationed after graduation?

00:46:22.000 - 00:46:43.000

Nobody asked me. Perhaps some of the girls might have gone in and asked for special assignments, but I didn't. What were you hoping for? I was hoping for the Air Transport Command. I wanted a ferry. But very few in my class went to the Ferry and Command. They sent us to other places.

00:46:43.000 - 00:47:06.000

A lot of them went to B-25 school, B-26 school, another transition. Ten of us went to the Weather Wing. Tell me about your graduation. It was just like any other, except that we were the ones to be in first place and to march up to get our wings.

00:47:06.000 - 00:47:20.000

Of course, it was special because my parents came down. It was a hard trip for them because quite often you had to stand up. You couldn't get a seat on the train. It was fun. Did your sister get to come?

00:47:20.000 - 00:47:36.000

No, she stayed on. Just your mom and dad. What did they think about that? My sister said that now she comes to some of the reunions and some of the activities, and she enjoys them. Sometimes I send her an extra newsletter copy. She's quite impressed.

00:47:36.000 - 00:47:58.000

She said, "I didn't know you were doing anything like that." She's eight years younger than I, so she was about twelve. She was in junior high when I was flying. She knew I was doing something, but she never realized what it was. After graduation, tell me about going home.

00:47:58.000 - 00:48:21.000

Then my parents and I got on the train, and I went back home with them. Did the people in your town know what you were doing? Yes. I was in the local newspaper a time or two, but it was kind of difficult for them to absorb, too. There was so much going on. Everybody was worried about their own family members.

00:48:21.000 - 00:48:55.000

It was the usual thing when a son or daughter would come home on leave, that the Rotarians would take them to the Rotary Club meeting for dinner. My father did that for me. I tried to explain what I was doing and how I just finished my training and where I was going. After it was all over, the high school principal came up to me and said, "You don't really fly those planes yourselves, do you?"

00:48:55.000 - 00:49:14.000

He just didn't get it. I said, "Yes, that's what we do. That's our main thing, is flying." But I don't think he ever really comprehended. Was there ever a time that you and your brother were home at the same time in your uniforms? No.

00:49:14.000 - 00:49:32.000

No, I don't think he came back until after I was out of the WASP. After your leave time was finished, then where were you assigned? I went to Asheville, North Carolina. There were ten of us in our class who were assigned to Asheville.

00:49:32.000 - 00:49:51.000

That was for indoctrination. We stayed at the Vanderbilt Hotel. We met everybody. We were checked out with one of the lieutenants there. He took each of us and checked us out on our flying skills.

00:49:51.000 - 00:50:09.000

He said, "Well, those girls can really fly," which I thought was nice. We studied a little bit about the meteorology. We took a few cross-country trips with male pilots. But we didn't do very much flying while we were there.

00:50:09.000 - 00:50:25.000

What was that base used for? In Asheville, it really wasn't a base. It was just the headquarters there, the weather wing, and it was a very small outfit. I don't think there was anything there except that weather headquarters.

00:50:25.000 - 00:50:40.000

There were some enlisted men, of course, and some officers. The purpose of sending you there was— Indoctrination, and then with the intention that three of us would remain in Asheville, and the rest would be sent to the regions.

00:50:40.000 - 00:50:52.000

There were seven regions, and the other seven of us went to regions. I got the Kansas City region. How did you get from Asheville to Kansas City? I flew out. I took a plane.

00:50:52.000 - 00:51:11.000

Kansas City, the office there did not have an airplane, so I flew out in a C-78 to present to them with my compliments and say, "Here I am." I replaced a male pilot. They had one male pilot there, a lieutenant.

00:51:11.000 - 00:51:32.000

I took a couple of short trips with him for a little bit, and then he left, and I replaced him. I think he went overseas, which was supposed to be our mission, to replace men overseas. I actually literally did it. Where did you live when you were in Kansas City?

00:51:32.000 - 00:51:56.000

I had an apartment on the plaza in Kansas City, a very nice apartment. There were a few WASPs who were stationed at Fairfax Field, but they were with the Ferry Command. I just found it more convenient to—I shared an apartment with some girls that I met, and it was quite close to the office, the weather office.

00:51:56.000 - 00:52:17.000

Your main mission was? It was to fly the officers wherever they needed to go, pretty much like a corporate pilot would do today. None of them were pilots, but they had a lot of inspection trips. I think we went on more inspection trips than anything else.

00:52:17.000 - 00:52:38.000

We had a seven-state region, and we inspected every weather office at all of those air bases. There was a lot of cross-country. When you would go to these bases, would you sometimes have to RON? Yes.

00:52:38.000 - 00:52:52.000

What would you do? It took a day. By the time we'd get to the air base—we were flying a C-78, which is not the fastest airplane in the world. So then the inspection would take half a day, so we would usually RON.

00:52:52.000 - 00:53:09.000

I would often stay at the nurses' quarters. Sometimes we stayed in hotels in the cities, but usually nurses' quarters. Then off the next day—the trips would usually last five days. We'd go out on Monday and come back on Friday, and hit five bases and then come back for the weekend.

00:53:09.000 - 00:53:28.000

Then Monday off again, we'd start off again. On these trips, would you have a crew with you, or would you be the crew? No, I had a crew chief who accompanied me, and he was also a weather inspector. He could do both jobs, so that was nice.

00:53:28.000 - 00:53:47.000

He would help the inspector with the inspection, and then he took very good care of my airplane. I never had to worry about a thing. Did he ever not want to fly with you? No, they were just great.

00:53:47.000 - 00:54:02.000

Would you get a different crew chief? No, I had the same one the entire time. He was a master sergeant, and I think he could have been an officer if he had wanted to. But he was happy being a master sergeant.

00:54:02.000 - 00:54:19.000

He was nice, and the inspector that I flew with, he was a major, and he was also quite nice. Sometimes I flew with other officers, too. We went to meetings, and we had one trip to California. Once we got our C-45, then we could go on longer trips.

00:54:19.000 - 00:54:32.000

Then by that time, we had a second WASP who came out. The first WASP they assigned didn't work out. She scared the commanding officer to death. They sent her back and got another one, Barbara Manchester.

00:54:32.000 - 00:54:44.000

She was a wonderful pilot. She had her instrument rating, which I did not have. She was from a later class. She and I took quite a few nice trips in that C-45.

00:54:44.000 - 00:55:00.000

Usually, how many passengers would you have? Usually, on the inspection trips, just the three of us, the inspector and the crew chief and myself. I didn't have very much to do once I got there. I would study the weather charts.

00:55:00.000 - 00:55:18.000

I learned a lot about meteorology, because I would usually stay in the weather office while they were checking everything. During the time you were stationed there, did you have some leave time to go home? I don't think I did. I'm sure I could have had it if I'd wanted to, but I never asked for it.

00:55:18.000 - 00:55:30.000

What was your social activities like? It was with my other friends in the city. Kansas City is a lovely place. I loved Kansas City.

00:55:30.000 - 00:55:46.000

I was sharing an apartment with some other girls that I met there. We had our own friends. I didn't socialize with the weather people. I did socialize with the other WASPs after we got her, but I was by myself.

00:55:46.000 - 00:56:04.000

I was the only WASP for quite a while. That's one thing I regret. I loved my assignment, but I wish I had been on an air base, because I missed all of that military environment. At some time, you got another uniform.

00:56:04.000 - 00:56:22.000

Could you tell us about that? Yes, that was wonderful when they got our new uniform. Up to that point, we'd been flying in just whatever we could pick up at the PX, with the khakis and pinks and so forth. When the uniform came, it was beautiful.

00:56:22.000 - 00:56:42.000

I felt like now they'd know who we were, because before that, nobody knew who we were. We were taken for all kinds of different people. Even after we got our blue uniforms, nobody still knew who we were. But anyway, I felt more official.

00:56:42.000 - 00:57:01.000

All I needed was those lieutenant barbs on my shoulder, which we never did get. While you were there, did you get orders for a temporary assignment? Yes, I did get orders to go down for officers training at Orlando. How did you get down there?

00:57:01.000 - 00:57:12.000

I must have gone by airline. I don't know how else. I think I did by airline. Tell us about that course. It was kind of fun being down there.

00:57:12.000 - 00:57:30.000

It was a much easier course. We did go to classes and so forth, but it was nothing compared to Sweetwater. We had time to swim, and there were all kinds of social activities at the club. But I didn't know anybody. None of my close friends were there, so I had to make new friends.

00:57:30.000 - 00:57:48.000

What was the purpose of that school? I thought once we went down there that they were really going to put us in the military. It was preparation for militarization. They taught us a lot about military courtesy and various things.

00:57:48.000 - 00:58:07.000

The course I remember most was aircraft identification, which didn't have very much to do with being an officer, but I enjoyed that course. Was it a mixed class? I think it was all WASP. I think it was.

00:58:07.000 - 00:58:21.000

How long were you down there? I think it was either two or three weeks. I can't recall. Probably two. Not very long. But I thought for sure that they were going to militarize us when they did that.

00:58:21.000 - 00:58:35.000

I was very disappointed. And then when you finished that course, did you go back? I went back to Kansas City, just like before. It must have been around August that I went, August of '44.

00:58:35.000 - 00:58:57.000

It was just a few weeks after that that they announced that we would be dissolved. Do you remember how you felt when you heard we were going to be disbanded? I wasn't terribly surprised, because by that time I had read what had happened in Washington. I was very disappointed. It was depressing. It was a shock.

00:58:57.000 - 00:59:15.000

Because I really wanted to stay in, militarized or not, I wanted to stay in until the war was over. And we couldn't even do that. But we were happy that the war was going much better, and the male pilots were coming back from overseas.

00:59:15.000 - 00:59:30.000

So we were happy about that. At this point, where was your brother? I think he was still in the South Pacific. I don't think he came home until after I got out.

00:59:30.000 - 00:59:42.000

When you were disbanded, did the Air Base do anything special? No. Or the weather? No, they didn't.

00:59:42.000 - 01:00:02.000

I just went around and said goodbye to everybody. And the commanding officer gave me that very nice certificate, which said I had served in the military. When you were at Kansas City, were there any unusual flights that you made that you want to tell us about?

01:00:02.000 - 01:00:16.000

No. The last flight we made, I had just returned from an inspection trip. We'd been out all week. And then the colonel and the other WASP met us at the airport and said,

01:00:16.000 - 01:00:31.000

"Hop in the C-45. We're going to California." So I didn't even have time to go home. I just took what clothes I already had with me, and we got in that beautiful C-45, and we flew to California for a meeting and kind of a sightseeing trip.

01:00:31.000 - 01:00:41.000

It was fun. I wanted to ask you, when you went on these inspection trips, were these to air bases that had a weather station? Yes.

01:00:41.000 - 01:01:09.000

And there were lots of air bases all over that Midwestern region. We had Kansas and Colorado and Wyoming and Nebraska and South Dakota and Iowa, Missouri. So at your weather station, you were responsible for all of those? Yes, we were responsible for inspecting the weather stations at each of those bases.

01:01:09.000 - 01:01:26.000

And every base had a weather station. When you were disbanded, then how did you get—where did you go? I stayed in Kansas City and started working for the Air Force again. I went back to being a secretary.

01:01:26.000 - 01:01:44.000

But it was a very hard decision. As I said, I should have gone back to college to finish my college and get my degree. But I was just a little too unsettled, and I think being dissolved so suddenly was kind of a blow to my confidence.

01:01:44.000 - 01:02:02.000

I didn't have the courage to start out once again and go to someplace where I didn't know anybody and start a new career. What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP program? I thought she was wonderful.

01:02:02.000 - 01:02:18.000

I know she was very controversial, but there wouldn't have been a WASP— we wouldn't have had this opportunity without her, and she had to do a lot of hard fighting to get it set up. And I know that she made a lot of enemies, but as far as I was concerned,

01:02:18.000 - 01:02:34.000

she did everything just about as well as she could, considering. And she was a wonderful pilot. When you look at her record and all of the air races that she won and all the speed records and everything, she was an outstanding woman.

01:02:34.000 - 01:02:57.000

And I admire her for pulling herself up by her own bootstraps from poverty to get to the top. When you were disbanded, did your mom and dad want you to come back home rather than— I don't think so. I think that they realized I wouldn't be happy in a small town after all of the things I'd done.

01:02:57.000 - 01:03:11.000

And I think they were probably right. I thought about it. I could have settled down in Kansas and become a farmer's wife. And it's not a bad life at all, but I didn't.

01:03:11.000 - 01:03:25.000

Then I moved to Washington, D.C., and that opened up all kinds of new, exciting avenues for me. Why did you decide to move to Washington? Were you transferred? I transferred.

01:03:25.000 - 01:03:37.000

I asked to be transferred. I just thought I needed to change. And that was quite an education, living on the East Coast and living in Washington, where so much is going on.

01:03:37.000 - 01:03:48.000

I really enjoyed it, and I miss Washington. Tell me about your social activities in Washington. Where did you work in the first place? Where were you?

01:03:48.000 - 01:03:56.000

I worked at the Pentagon. That was different. It was. It was fun.

01:03:56.000 - 01:04:12.000

I loved the Pentagon. It was in all those stores, so you could do all of your errands on your lunch hour, your post office, everything you needed, your dry cleaning, the drugstore. Everything was right there, even a dress shop.

01:04:12.000 - 01:04:25.000

So it was very convenient. Transportation was very convenient. And for what division did you work? I worked in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, which was not to start with,

01:04:25.000 - 01:04:33.000

but that's where I ended up. My last job was there. So I was right up at the top. It was kind of fun.

01:04:33.000 - 01:04:52.000

What outstanding military personnel did you get to meet? I met some of the assistant secretaries. That was—Holland and I can't remember their names. You probably wouldn't remember the names either.

01:04:52.000 - 01:05:06.000

Were you ever able to meet General Arnall? No, no. I wish I had. I knew his son quite well when we were lobbying for our legislation.

01:05:06.000 - 01:05:29.000

I met him, and I knew him quite well. While you were in Washington, what were your social activities then? Well, we lived in a very friendly neighborhood in Alexandria. There were just a lot of cookouts and cocktail parties and dinner parties and bridge parties.

01:05:29.000 - 01:05:47.000

We lived in a community with a swimming pool, a community pool, and so the children had a place to go in the summer. It was a very pleasant place. Of course, my husband was with the government too, and he had a lot of social life with his office people.

01:05:47.000 - 01:06:07.000

Okay, I was going to say, now that there are children, could we go back and tell me when you met this special person? Very shortly after I moved from Kansas City to Washington, D.C. I dated him for about a year before we were married.

01:06:07.000 - 01:06:26.000

I wasn't young; I was 30 years old before I was married. What were the qualities that he possessed that attracted you to him? Well, I think he was quite the opposite of me. I don't know whether that's what attracted me to him, but he was very sociable,

01:06:26.000 - 01:06:43.000

live at the party, and could tell funny stories. He had a wonderful sense of humor, and of course he was very intelligent. And he pursued me for a long time. And what was his job when you met him?

01:06:43.000 - 01:06:58.000

He was the controller for the Veterans Administration. Would you tell us about your wedding? We had a very small wedding. I didn't want a big wedding, and so we just had a very small one, and a small reception,

01:06:58.000 - 01:07:20.000

and a larger reception much later when we came back to Washington. Had he met your parents, and had you met his family before you married? He had met my parents, but I hadn't met his family. He was from Iowa, and I just didn't meet them until afterwards.

01:07:20.000 - 01:07:35.000

Did your mom and dad come to the wedding? No, we had a little private wedding ourselves, and then they went home. And then where did you go on your honeymoon? Oh, we toured. We drove from Kansas.

01:07:35.000 - 01:07:49.000

First, we went to visit my parents, and then we drove down to New Orleans and to Florida, and then back up the coast to Washington, D.C. We had a long trip, but it was fun. And then did you keep on working?

01:07:49.000 - 01:08:11.000

I worked for about a year, and then we decided to have a family. And then how many children do you have? I have two children, a daughter who lives here in Denver, and my son lives in Virginia. While those children were growing up, Lucille, how were you involved in their activities?

01:08:11.000 - 01:08:23.000

Well, I was very much involved. I didn't work. In those days, most wives did not work. So that left me free to see what they were doing in school, get acquainted with their teachers and their activities.

01:08:23.000 - 01:08:39.000

My daughter also was quite musical. In fact, she's more talented than I am when it comes to music. And their swimming activities, they had swimming teams and swimming races. And so we got quite involved in that.

01:08:39.000 - 01:08:58.000

After you got married, until now, how have you used your music abilities? Not very much. I stopped playing. I gave my daughter my piano to her. And after she could play better than I could, I stopped.

01:08:58.000 - 01:09:24.000

I do enjoy music, classical music especially, but that's just enjoying listening to it as far as I go. At the present time, what do you do to keep busy? Well, at the present time, I'm president of the WASP, and that is an all-consuming job. We're a large organization. We have between 800 and 900 members,

01:09:24.000 - 01:09:42.000

and they're scattered, very strong-minded, and very active. So that has kept me busy for the past two years. Could I go back and ask you about the veteran status for the WASP, and what part did you play in helping that?

01:09:42.000 - 01:10:01.000

I was pretty active in that because I was living in the Washington area. And with my office skills, I went in and helped set up the filing system and get the office organized and answer the correspondence. I could type. We had an old beat-up typewriter and answer the telephone.

01:10:01.000 - 01:10:24.000

So I spent quite a lot of time in there, and I got acquainted with a lot of new WASPs, and I got acquainted with Bruce Arnold, and it was quite an experience. It was like a course in government by the time we were through trying to get a piece of legislation passed. Could you tell me, Lucille, how did that get started?

01:10:24.000 - 01:10:48.000

What was the impetus for that to get started? General Arnold's son, Bruce Arnold, and Senator Goldwater really got together. And Bruce Arnold said that Teresa James, the WAF, was also quite instrumental. She kept writing letters about this, and I think maybe that helped move them to get together.

01:10:48.000 - 01:11:11.000

And, of course, Senator Goldwater had flown with us. He was also a ferry pilot, and he wanted to do this. So they got everything organized, and they led us through the process. For children watching this, tell them what veteran status, what that means,

01:11:11.000 - 01:11:29.000

and why the WASPs weren't given that in the beginning. The WASPs were hired as civilians. We were civil service, with the expectation that if the experiment was a success, and it was proved that women could fly military aircraft,

01:11:29.000 - 01:11:49.000

the military way that we would be militarized, taken into the Air Force. And we did, of course, succeed beyond anyone's expectations. But somehow Congress just never got around to passing the legislation that we needed. And also there was some question about just how we would go into the military,

01:11:49.000 - 01:12:12.000

just how it would be done, whether we'd go into the WAC or into the Air Force directly. And so they dillied and dallied around, and General Arnold testified for us, and the Secretary of War testified for us, and there was a lot of support for us. But there was also a lot of opposition, and they never did pass the legislation.

01:12:12.000 - 01:12:33.000

And when it failed, that's when Jacqueline Cochran said if we were to be militarized, that we should disband. So that meant that we did not have any veterans' benefits like the men coming home from--and being discharged. They had schooling. They could go to college at government expense,

01:12:33.000 - 01:12:58.000

and there were a lot of other privileges that went with veterans' benefits. And we missed out on all of that. They had tried to pass it, but it failed every time. So we thought perhaps the time was right in 1976, I think it was, that we made one final try.

01:12:58.000 - 01:13:18.000

And it was much harder than I thought it would be, but we finally got the legislation passed. There was still a lot of opposition from various groups. Tell us about--did you actually go to the Congress, to the Congressional Committee meetings? Yes, we did. We had hearings.

01:13:18.000 - 01:13:36.000

The veterans' committees of the House of Representatives had hearings where the WASP testified and a lot of other people testified for us, and then all of the veterans' groups testified against us. And then when it was all over with, the committee said,

01:13:36.000 - 01:13:57.000

"Thank you very much, and we'll think about this." And the same thing with the Senate. We went through hearings with them also. And we were contacting--members were contacting their congressmen and the senators all over the country. And with great success, we had co-sponsors over half the Senate and half the House

01:13:57.000 - 01:14:14.000

as co-sponsoring our legislation to get military benefits. But still, they couldn't get the bill out of the committees. The committee chairman would not let the bill be voted on. So we had quite a struggle, but they finally got it out,

01:14:14.000 - 01:14:30.000

and at the very last minute, Senator Goldwater attached our bill to another-- as an amendment to another bill, and it passed. It wasn't voted on separately like we had hoped. Tell me what it was like to go to a committee hearing.

01:14:30.000 - 01:14:49.000

Well, it's just wonderful when you see these men that you've heard of and seen on television and maybe even voted for, and they were very, very polite and very nice to us. They couldn't have been nicer. But still, there were some of them that the chairman of the committees

01:14:49.000 - 01:15:04.000

did not seem to want to get the legislation passed. We also did some personal lobbying. Another WASP and I went around through the halls of Congress one day, and we went to various offices.

01:15:04.000 - 01:15:18.000

The first one we went to was Senator Kennedy's, Ted Kennedy's office, and I happened to know the woman who worked for him. She was there at the reception desk, and that was in the morning. And I asked if he wouldn't sign on as co-sponsor of our bill,

01:15:18.000 - 01:15:29.000

and that afternoon he called back and said he had signed on. So it made us feel important. It was kind of an ego trip. Did he know who the WASPs were?

01:15:29.000 - 01:15:45.000

Evidently. I left some information. Everywhere we went we left information. But I think we had made the headlines. We were very much in all of the newspapers and on television. We got wonderful publicity from WASPs all over the whole country.

01:15:45.000 - 01:16:12.000

When you first started going to the congressional meetings, do you think what percentage of those congressmen had ever heard of the WASPs before? Well, I don't know, but the ones that I met, the ones in the committees, of course, it all had. And then after the second hearing, I think the first one was the House of Representatives,

01:16:12.000 - 01:16:30.000

after the Senate hearings, then we had a big reception for everybody in Congress. And we spent a little money for once. We didn't spend very much money, but we did have a reception with cocktails and hors d'oeuvres. And they were all very happy to meet us.

01:16:30.000 - 01:16:43.000

They couldn't have been nicer. They're very well-mannered and very impressive people. Did you personally speak before the committee? No, no, no, I didn't.

01:16:43.000 - 01:17:06.000

We had some wonderful speakers that were much better than I did, and Kay Doo was the president at that time, and she made a presentation. Doris Struther spoke and Ann Hamilton, and Doris Tanner spoke. I can't remember the others, but there were some WASPs who were very good speakers.

01:17:06.000 - 01:17:29.000

Even before that, when the WASP organization began, did you play a part in that? No, no. I didn't even know--I think they lost my address. I didn't know that there was an organization until about the 1970s.

01:17:29.000 - 01:17:46.000

I think the first reunion I went to was in Sweetwater, and that was--no, not in Sweetwater. It was in Palm Desert, where Cochran's Ranch is, and that must have been in the 1970s. That's the first time I went. I didn't know that there was an organization.

01:17:46.000 - 01:18:05.000

And then once the WASP received veteran status, what does that mean to receive veterans status? It was just a recognition. There were very few benefits still remaining, but it was a military recognition that we wanted, and it also was a tribute to the women who were killed,

01:18:05.000 - 01:18:31.000

because when a woman was killed in the service, she did not receive the military flag and the military ceremony. In fact, I think the family had to pay to have their body shipped home. So I felt that they deserved a little bit more recognition. The main benefit we get now--there are a few who are ill and hard up who are getting pensions.

01:18:31.000 - 01:18:49.000

I don't think more than two or three. We can go to veterans' hospitals for treatment, and we can be buried with a flag on our casket. So those are the main benefits, and I guess we're eligible for a housing loan if we needed it. But it was a recognition.

01:18:49.000 - 01:19:15.000

That's all we were asking. Since that time, how have you been involved with the WASP organization? Well, we had a group of WASP who met once a month in Washington, and it was just to get together and mostly social until we started the drive to get our legislation passed.

01:19:15.000 - 01:19:34.000

And then at one of them, the head of the nominating committee was there, and she asked if I would like to serve on the board. And I said, "Well, I would be a regional director." I didn't want to be any higher than that, so I served as regional director one time.

01:19:34.000 - 01:19:58.000

And what were your duties as a regional director? It was just mainly to keep track of the WASP in my region. We have three regions, and I had the middle section and the central area. And we also had a regional reunion, and I organized that, which was fun.

01:19:58.000 - 01:20:27.000

We met in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, for the biplane fly-in, and we had a wonderful time. We all received rides in the old primary training, the PT-17, the steerman. And they had a nice tent for us, and we had a ball. And since being a regional director, what else?

01:20:27.000 - 01:20:50.000

A few years ago, I said, "Why in the world don't the WASP have a scholarship?" We're a nonprofit organization. We're supposed to do good things, educational and so forth, and I thought we needed a scholarship to help young women learn how to fly, like the 99s do.

01:20:50.000 - 01:21:06.000

They have a big thing. And so I proposed that when Ethel Finley--no, I think Pat Tateman was president then, quite a while ago. And somehow people didn't like it. It never took off.

01:21:06.000 - 01:21:26.000

At first they thought it would be a good idea, but then there were a few critics of it, and it just kind of stood out in limbo for quite a while. But people did make donations. We finally collected $35,000, but the board still had not authorized us to put it into operation

01:21:26.000 - 01:21:44.000

and start advertising and picking someone. We thought we would give $1,500 each year to some young woman for flying lessons. And it wasn't until Vy Cowden became president that we finally voted on it, and we now have our scholarship.

01:21:44.000 - 01:22:05.000

We placed it with the Air Force Academy, and that will help someone who had been turned down for the Academy. It will send her to a prep school for a year, and at the end of that time she will be able to enter the Academy. And we have two scholarship winners at the Academy right now,

01:22:05.000 - 01:22:19.000

and another one will be going to prep school this fall. We're about to award the third one. We do not pick the recipients. There's a foundation at the Academy at Colorado Springs that does that.

01:22:19.000 - 01:22:34.000

But they're wonderful young women. It's a thrill to be there, and I have presented two of them. It's quite a thrill to be there and see the quality of young women and young men who are getting these scholarships.

01:22:34.000 - 01:22:49.000

So have you done some to young men? Do we have what? Has a young man received a scholarship? Well, this foundation at the Academy awards about 100 scholarships each year.

01:22:49.000 - 01:23:05.000

They have millions of dollars, and we just added our $35,000 to it, which gives a scholarship in honor of Jacqueline Cochran. And it is given to a-- It goes to a young woman.

01:23:05.000 - 01:23:23.000

And so we are getting more young women into the Academy. And some of them may go on to be pilots and some may not, but most of them want to be a pilot. And then I know that you have done something else

01:23:23.000 - 01:23:32.000

or that you are in the middle of doing something else with the WASP. Tell us about that. You mean being president? Yes.

01:23:32.000 - 01:23:49.000

Well, as I said, it's a large organization. There's over 800 members, between 800 and 900 members. And they're very active. And we get a lot of requests to appear and to be honored,

01:23:49.000 - 01:24:02.000

and we get a lot of requests to speak. And so there's a lot of coordinating to do. There's a lot of correspondence and a lot of traveling. But it's been a wonderful experience.

01:24:02.000 - 01:24:14.000

I have a wonderful board. I have a seven-member board, and then I have 13 committees. So that's a lot of committees. We have memorials and we have an endowment.

01:24:14.000 - 01:24:31.000

We now have an endowment at TWU. That's where our archives are located. And we're collecting money for them to keep our archives in proper condition and keep our historical records.

01:24:31.000 - 01:24:48.000

And we have a historian, and we have someone who helps people get their honorable discharges. There's still some WASP who have not gotten their discharges, and all of a sudden they think, "I better get it before it's too late." And so she's quite busy with that.

01:24:48.000 - 01:25:14.000

We have all kinds of activities. Of all the things you've done as president, what is the one thing that you're--? I put in my report about seven things that I was interested in doing while I was president. Of course, first we have to manage our finances quite carefully.

01:25:14.000 - 01:25:34.000

And we have to--I was concerned when I visited WMSA, the Women's Memorial in Washington, D.C. They have a nice WASP exhibit, except that they do not have a WASP uniform. Instead of the uniform, they have the mannequin wearing a blue cotton jumpsuit. Did you ever get one of those?

01:25:34.000 - 01:25:48.000

And a cap with a brim. But there's no insignia whatsoever, no wings, nothing on it. It looks very un-military. It looks like something you might go out to dig ditches in, really.

01:25:48.000 - 01:26:03.000

It doesn't look aeronautical. And so for the past two years, I have written letters to WMSA asking if they couldn't replace that with their uniform. And Lorraine Rogers, who lives in Washington, donated her original uniform.

01:26:03.000 - 01:26:20.000

And I think they now have two or three uniforms. But WMSA did not reply. I did meet General Vought, who's head of WMSA, at two meetings here. And at both times, she knows who I am, and she knows I've written to her about this.

01:26:20.000 - 01:26:33.000

But I never did get a response. I wrote three letters and no response. I pointed out that we were in an alcove with the Civil Air Patrol and the Cadet Nurse Corps, which were both civilian organizations.

01:26:33.000 - 01:26:48.000

They were never militarized and never intended to be militarized. And there was no mention that we were ever militarized. So finally I pointed out that the WASPs suffered much higher casualties, percentage-wise, than any of the other women's groups,

01:26:48.000 - 01:27:08.000

and that we had received our military discharge, honorable discharges, and veterans' benefits. And Lorraine Rogers went to see the exhibit again a few months ago, and they now have our uniform on display. So I achieved that, if nothing else.

01:27:08.000 - 01:27:26.000

And we're trying to modernize. I want to computerize our financial records, and I'm meeting some resistance from our finance officer. You know, they hate that people get into the routine, and they think their system is fine. But it's very hard to find a treasurer,

01:27:26.000 - 01:27:50.000

and I want to hire some outside help to make the treasurer's job easier and computerize the finances, which would be much easier and much faster. And I'm trying to get a duplicate copy of the records that Catherine Murphy has. She has so much records stored on her computer, but there's no backup copy,

01:27:50.000 - 01:28:05.000

so I'm hoping that she will comply with that request. There's all these little things, and that's my main thing. And then, of course, collecting for the endowment. What else?

01:28:05.000 - 01:28:22.000

But those are the main things. And, you know, my main purpose really is to keep communications, keeping the newsletter going. And I think our newsletter is just doing fine right now, because it has so much information in there, personal information, and about the organization,

01:28:22.000 - 01:28:35.000

about the things we're doing. And I'm glad that we got the plaques in honor of the 38 WASPs who were killed in service. We recently donated a plaque at the Air Force Academy. Since you're going down to Colorado Springs, it's worth a trip to see it.

01:28:35.000 - 01:28:57.000

It's located on the cemetery grounds. There's quite a few memorial walls, and one of them has our plaque with names of the 38. And I thought it was quite appropriate that they be recognized somewhere officially. And we'll also install a plaque at TWU, at Texas Women's University.

01:28:57.000 - 01:29:11.000

This October, when we go down for our reunion, there will be a plaque installed at the library where our archives are being stored. So I'm glad I accomplished those things. Great.

01:29:11.000 - 01:29:33.000

Do you have other activities that you enjoy at this point? Well, I love to play golf, but I haven't been able to do that this summer because of arthritis. So I love to watch them, and I play bridge. And, of course, I have my daughter here and my granddaughter, so I see them quite often.

01:29:33.000 - 01:29:53.000

And I fly back to see my son also, who has a little boy. My grandchildren--you know, I married late, and my children did too. So my granddaughter here is 13, and my grandson is entering first grade. So it's fun to watch them grow up.

01:29:53.000 - 01:30:11.000

And I love to play bridge. I play bridge two or three times a week. Good. Lucille, as you look back over your life, and you've done so many wonderful things, what is the one thing that you're most proud of? Oh, I think my WASP experience, the fact that I got through training.

01:30:11.000 - 01:30:32.000

I think that's about the hardest thing I did, and I'm very proud that I managed to win those wings. I said that ranked right up with getting married. When I received those wings, that was about the happiest day of my life. What do you feel will be the legacy of the WASP?

01:30:32.000 - 01:30:48.000

Well, I think that they'll be remembered as pioneers. I don't think that we were especially outstanding women. We were just very ordinary women, well, slightly above average when it came to education and health and so forth.

01:30:48.000 - 01:31:07.000

But we just had an opportunity to do something special, and we proved that women could do it. I think we paved the way for the women who are flying for the Air Force and the airlines today. I think we made their paths easier. They would have done it eventually without us, but I think we made it easier for them,

01:31:07.000 - 01:31:24.000

and maybe a little faster. What do you feel your own legacy will be? I don't think I have any outside of what I'll push in the WASP. My granddaughter thinks I'm pretty great,

01:31:24.000 - 01:31:58.000

and she's thinking about possibly going to the Academy if she can get in. She's a good scholar, so we'll see. What advice would you give to children in future generations to cause them to want to succeed? It takes a lot of self-discipline, a lot of work, and I think you have to have a goal in mind.

01:31:58.000 - 01:32:17.000

I think that if they make up their mind that they want something bad enough, they'll get there. You just have to have that determination. Is there anything you would like to say to your own grandchildren? No, I don't think so.

01:32:17.000 - 01:32:36.000

I know that in life there are lots of highs and there are lots of lows. How did you get through those lows? I think there have been times when I've felt depressed. I just lived through it, just lived through it.

01:32:36.000 - 01:33:12.000

That's all I did. I didn't--I guess maybe church probably helped, my family helped, and my friends. Is there anything that you would like to say that I've left out, or anything that you would like to talk about? I can't think of anything. I think we've covered just about everything I can think of. I want to thank you so much for the children of future generations who are able to sit and watch you and listen to what you have to say.

01:33:12.000 - 01:33:21.000

Well, thank you very much. It was my pleasure. Do you have anything next? That's great. That's terrific.

01:33:21.000 - 01:33:42.000

Well, Cill, you survived this interview. I'm so happy to know about all the veteran stuff, because, see, I didn't know any of that. I have written a report, and I thought maybe someday I'd put it in the newsletter, but somehow the newsletter has so much in it. I think I'll condense it, and maybe people would like to read it.

01:33:42.000 - 01:33:51.000

Would you like to put it online? Just let me know. Okay. Anytime you want to put something online, I'd be more than happy to. Okay.