00:00:00.640 - 00:00:18.920

And Macy's listening. And I may laugh, so if you say something funny and I laugh, I've been known to do that. But it makes it a lot faster now that she has this black background.

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Used to, we'd have to adjust for the lights coming in the background and for what was being seen, and we finally decided to go to a solid background so that everybody's pretty much alike. >> All right.

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>> You ready to roll? >> I'm ready to roll. >> Okay. >> I'm going to take my jacket off.

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Go right ahead. >> I'm Deanie Parrish, and we are interviewing Lois Haley. Lois was a WASP, Class 43-3. We are in her home in El Paso, Texas.

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Today is the 31st of October, night 2001. Lewis, if you will give us your full name and when and where you were born. Lewis Brooks-Haley I am Lewis Brooks-Haley, and I was born January 18, 1915, in Reno, Nevada.

00:01:12.750 - 00:01:33.620

I was the fifth child in the family, and I think my mother had had too much before she got to me. But anyway, I had a really good life. In my neighborhood, there were no girls, so all of my companions were boys.

00:01:35.090 - 00:01:52.640

I did some football playing before I was twelve years old. But at twelve, my mother decided that wasn't right and I would have to be a lady, so she put her foot down. Let me ask you, Lois, what did your dad do?

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He was a dairy farmer. All of my uncles were farmers in the area, and Dad had the dairy farm. He did very well with it. Where did you live?

00:02:07.720 - 00:02:19.560

Did you live on the dairy farm? I actually lived in town, but I spent a lot of time out on the farm. Did you ever get to milk cows? How did he get milk from those cows?

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I tried it once and gave up. At that time, that was before milking machines? No, they had milking machines as far as I remember, yes. In town, did you live right in the town or were you on the outskirts?

00:02:36.620 - 00:02:51.980

What was your home like? It was a neighborhood in southeast Reno. I went to the Southside School. Let me ask you about your fifth child.

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Were there children after you also? Tell me about your siblings. Yes, there was one after me. Tell me about your older brothers and sisters.

00:03:02.840 - 00:03:30.160

My brother Ernest was the oldest in the family and he was too bossy to suit me. He was a great guy and he got into politics and ran for Congress in 1942, but he did not make it. He did well, but that was the days of Democrat control.

00:03:34.520 - 00:04:08.300

Then my oldest sister had one year of college, and she got married and had three children. My next sister married a man who had become editor of the newspaper in Reno, and she had two girls. The next sister married a farmer, and she had three children.

00:04:08.500 - 00:04:40.760

They had a nice home out on the farm, but we were well into World War II. Even though her husband was a farmer and had three small children, they drafted him. He was in the invasion in Europe. At one point, he was in the hospital in England, and his entire outfit was wiped out in the

00:04:40.960 - 00:05:00.480

invasion. So he was lucky that he was in the hospital. Then there's myself and my younger sister, graduated from high school and she got married and had two children.

00:05:03.120 - 00:05:23.160

She is still living, but she's crippled up pretty badly. Kelly: When you were growing up, did you share a room with your sisters or did you have your own room? We had to share, and I shared with my oldest sister, and Louise, the younger, shared with

00:05:23.280 - 00:05:38.360

Myrtle. And Carol had to sleep in the hallway upstairs until brother got married and left, and then she had a room. As young children, did you have chores to do?

00:05:43.080 - 00:06:02.000

My younger sister and I had orders to do the dishes, and we generally fought about whose turn it was to do the dishes. Then my older sisters did most of taking care of the bedrooms. Who did the cooking?

00:06:03.880 - 00:06:23.800

My mother did for many years, but then we also had a woman who had been a cook at the dairy farm. So when there was no more cooking for her, that job kind of ended. So then she cooked for us at our home in town.

00:06:23.930 - 00:06:41.660

Kelly: Let me ask you something about the dairy farm. What did your dad do with the milk that he got at the dairy farm? Did he sell it locally? Litz: Yes, it was mostly local business.

00:06:44.280 - 00:07:03.940

He had purebred Holstein cattle. It was raw milk. It was supposed to be so pure they did not have to pasteurize it. But of course, later on, the laws came along and said, "You have to pasteurize."

00:07:04.140 - 00:07:35.700

He really didn't like to do that, but that's the way it goes. He was furnishing milk for children in the town. At the time of World War II, a military air base was constructed north of Reno. The military officers came and ordered my dad, really, to furnish milk for the base.

00:07:36.620 - 00:07:51.100

He says, "I can't do that. I can't take it away from these mothers and children, and I don't have enough to do your base." But, I don't know, I guess that finally got worked out somehow or other.

00:07:51.750 - 00:08:12.520

Did the boys help in the dairy business, your brothers? My brother was in it constantly and finally became the owner. And then his three sons grew up and took over the dairy business, too. Tell me about your grandparents, Louis.

00:08:14.620 - 00:08:40.160

I never knew my grandparents very well. My maternal grandfather was the first of the family into Reno, and he married Emma Shepard. She had come down from Canada. We cannot find out any information on her, but we would sure like to know.

00:08:43.700 - 00:09:06.720

My grandfather was twelve years old, living in Massachusetts. That was not a plague, but I forget. What is the sickness that they often had that was very bad, killed a lot of people? Kelly: Typhoid, scarlet fever?

00:09:07.120 - 00:09:19.320

Roslyn: No. Kelly: Typhoid smallpox? Roslyn: No. In Massachusetts, a lot of people were dying.

00:09:21.500 - 00:09:47.740

My great-grandmother took her son and daughter—well, the grandfather had died, the great-grandfather. So she took her two children and a boat down to the isthmus of Panama and across the isthmus and a boat back up to San Francisco. And she had some relatives in San Francisco, I think.

00:09:51.100 - 00:10:17.560

And then the only job she could find was in a mining camp in Nevada. So she moved up to this mining camp to be a cook. Then she married somebody else, a second husband. That's about all I can remember about her.

00:10:17.560 - 00:10:36.680

I didn't know her personally. I only knew my grandfather, who was twelve years old when he came around to Isthmus. Kelly: And then your maternal grandparents, did you know them? McMillan: Well, this was my maternal grandfather that I'm talking about.

00:10:38.000 - 00:10:59.740

I knew my paternal grandmother only briefly. She died when I was very young. She had come across the plains in 1861. She was four years old, and her parents brought her across in a covered wagon.

00:11:01.270 - 00:11:13.980

Kelly: And then was your dad born in Reno? Litz: He was born in Taylorsville, California. Kelly: Tell me, Louise, what was the Christmas like when you were growing up at your house? Litz: Christmas?

00:11:15.160 - 00:11:38.220

Well, we always had a tree, and I think we had only one gift for each person, at least in the early years. My brother gave me a football one Christmas. At that time, my mother had said no, no, so I wasn't too interested in the football.

00:11:38.410 - 00:11:56.760

Kelly: Did you believe in Santa Claus? I don't know, I never gave it much thought. Were there other holidays that you celebrated in your family? Thanksgiving and Christmas.

00:11:58.040 - 00:12:15.600

Of course, the public schools always honored Easter. Public schools had Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter. How about Veterans Day? Do you recall ever anything about Veterans Day growing up?

00:12:17.910 - 00:12:30.740

Litz: Yes, there were always parades on the 11th of November. Kelly: Where did you first start school, and what kind of school? What was the school like? Litz: School?

00:12:31.080 - 00:12:55.940

Well, I mentioned Southside School, and we all very fondly remember our first-grade teacher, who was Jessie Beck. And I'm telling you, she gave me a good start. And I think we all felt that she gave us everything we needed to do well the rest of the years.

00:12:57.600 - 00:13:19.640

How large a school was it? Were all twelve grades in one school building? Litz: No, there were six grades, I think, in this one school building. And then we went to a kind of a junior high or an intermediate for seven and eight.

00:13:20.680 - 00:13:32.380

Then we went to a junior high for ninth grade. Was there only one first grade teacher? Or were there several classes? Oh, I know.

00:13:32.820 - 00:13:45.640

They were divided in half. There was low first and high first, low second, high second. So I— Do you want to tell us if you were high or low?

00:13:47.380 - 00:13:53.240

No, not that way. It's just when you finished low first, you went to high first. Oh, I see. Okay.

00:13:54.240 - 00:14:15.060

second you went to high second. So I'll say there were two first grade teachers and two second grade teachers and so on. Kelly: How far did you live from school and how did you get there? Litz: I only lived about three blocks from school and walked to school.

00:14:15.440 - 00:14:37.380

I remember I always had a dream that I had forgotten to put my shoes on. Kelly: While you were in elementary school, what was your favorite subject? McMillan: Elementary school? I just liked everything.

00:14:40.090 - 00:14:51.260

Kelly: And for lunch, would you go home for lunch? Or would you bring your lunch? We went home for lunch. Do you remember any extracurricular things that you did in elementary school?

00:14:51.520 - 00:15:20.600

Any little sports or any little clubs or little plays that you might have been in? Girl Scouts were available at that time, and there was another group called Girl Reserves. My mother got me into Girl Reserves because she thought that I needed socializing. I joined Girl Scouts on my own.

00:15:21.020 - 00:15:39.640

Kelly: What were your summers like, Lois? Lloyd: Well, like I say, I spent a lot of time out on the farm, mainly with my uncle, because he had an only daughter who was my age. So we were inseparable most of the time.

00:15:41.220 - 00:16:05.320

Kelly: Would you take summer vacations ever as a family? Litz: I can't think. Well yes, one summer we all went down to a place on the beach in California, Pacific growth.

00:16:07.580 - 00:16:32.580

My mother took all of the girls down there. It wasn't a family thing, but it was all of the girls and two cousins of mine. Kelly: When you moved from elementary school to junior high, did you get involved in any sports in junior high or any clubs of any type?

00:16:32.600 - 00:16:57.220

Yes, I'm sure they had clubs, and I can't remember which ones I might have belonged to. In ninth grade, I was one of the student body officers, an insignificant one. By the time you reached junior high, what was your ambition?

00:17:02.820 - 00:17:20.620

Quintanilla I think it was in seventh grade, eighth grade, ninth grade that I got interested in band. So really after that, band and orchestra were my preferred subjects. What did you play?

00:17:22.280 - 00:17:44.900

I played flute and piccolo. Then I also was taking violin lessons so later I could get into orchestra as well as band. Where do you think you got that love of music? Undoubtedly from my mother.

00:17:46.260 - 00:18:15.440

She insisted that we all have piano lessons, and my oldest sister pursued that very seriously. The next one did not pursue it very much. But knowing my sister's practicing piano, the older ones, would put things into my mind that would always be there.

00:18:15.540 - 00:18:34.980

Now my mother gave me piano lessons and I was about eight or nine and that's when I wanted to go play football. So I would forget my music lesson and I'd go play with the neighborhood boys. I'd say, "Oh, I forgot."

00:18:35.000 - 00:18:49.980

So she finally gave up on my music lessons. But then in junior high, when I got into band and orchestra in school, then it was another story. I really loved it.

00:18:50.370 - 00:19:06.660

Kelly: As a part of the band, did you have concerts or did you march at the football games? What did you do with that music? We marched in parades and we made tours to other towns like Susanville, California.

00:19:10.660 - 00:19:28.160

We had concerts. Did you have uniforms? Yes, we had nice red and blue uniforms. My mother once said, "The only reason I wanted to be in the band was for that uniform."

00:19:28.160 - 00:19:40.620

Did you wear slacks or did you have skirts? Wheeler-Cook-Slacks, I think. I'm pretty sure it was. Kelly: When you were in school, who were your role models?

00:19:43.160 - 00:20:06.060

Wheeler-Cook-Let's see, in high school, I don't know unless it was the band teacher. Kelly: Was that a male or a female? Wheeler-Cook-It was male. When you went on into high school, did you change buildings then to go into high school?

00:20:07.350 - 00:20:22.540

Yes. What was your favorite subject in high school? I loved all my subjects. What did you intend to do with your education?

00:20:22.980 - 00:20:39.200

I didn't really know very much. When I graduated from high school, I thought, "What am I going to do? I'm not trained to do anything." I had all of these, two years of Spanish, one of French, one of Latin.

00:20:43.040 - 00:21:00.780

And besides the band and orchestra and history, I couldn't see what I was going to do when I graduated from high school. But I went on to university. And even when I got through university or through junior year, I thought, "Gee, what

00:21:00.780 - 00:21:19.260

am I going to do? I'm still not prepared." So the very last year at university, then I took teacher training courses. I had postponed that too long, and I got into teaching and I loved it.

00:21:19.880 - 00:21:47.440

Let me go back to high school and ask you what your social life was like in high school. Roslyn: Not a whole lot, except I had a small group of friends, which I suppose everybody does. My cousin, who was my constant companion living on the farm, and in the seventh grade she

00:21:47.660 - 00:22:01.640

had a car. So she could get to town to school. And it was a Model A Ford Roadster. So we did quite a few things in that Ford Roadster.

00:22:01.780 - 00:22:15.620

We went up to Lake Tahoe. Kelly: Tell me what your high school prom was like. McMillan: I can't remember. In fact, I don't even know if I went to it.

00:22:16.480 - 00:22:29.240

Can you tell me about your high school graduation? Did you have robes? I do not remember. What kind of student were you in high school?

00:22:30.620 - 00:22:45.680

I was an A student. I think I was in the top ten of the class. Do you remember your high school graduation? Was it in the school or was it in a church?

00:22:45.680 - 00:23:01.240

In the school gym, and they had a stage where we all went up to get our diplomas. That's about all I remember. Do you recall a baccalaureate service? Did you have that?

00:23:01.320 - 00:23:19.040

I don't think so. Once you finished high school, did you know where you were going to college, and how did you select that college? The University of Nevada was in Reno, so there was no question, but that's where I would

00:23:19.160 - 00:23:39.060

go. And the tuition was so little you wouldn't believe. I don't think it cost me more than $50 a semester. But in my junior year, one of my friends says, "Let's go to College of Pacific and study

00:23:40.820 - 00:23:57.360

music." my junior year we did go to College of Pacific, but then the next year my mother was very ill so I had to stay home and go to the University of Nevada again. Let me go back to when you first started college.

00:23:57.760 - 00:24:08.880

Did you live on campus or did you live at home? I lived at home. Could you walk? No, I had my hand on my mother's car.

00:24:11.220 - 00:24:32.900

My dad chewed me out once for it, "That's your mother's car, it's not yours." Did you make any lasting friendships during your school years? Definitely. I'm in contact with some of them around Reno.

00:24:33.260 - 00:24:56.300

My college roommate lives in California, and I'm in contact with her and two or three others. Well, more than that, really, at the University of Nevada I'm still in contact with. Kelly: And when you decided after three years that you were going to the College of the

00:24:56.520 - 00:25:20.460

Pacific, what did your mom and dad think about your leaving home? I think I probably thought it was a good idea. My mom was sick that year. She was in San Francisco quite a bit in the hospital, and I was in Stockton, California,

00:25:20.740 - 00:25:41.380

so I could easily get over to visit her once in a while. How did you get from Reno out to California to start school? I remember we went on a sleeper. We had a berth and we slept on the airplane all night.

00:25:41.580 - 00:25:49.180

The next day we were there. We slept on the train. Did I say airplane? It's okay.

00:25:49.880 - 00:26:04.160

Then when you got there, where did you live? In the dormitory. During your time there, did you join any clubs or do anything outside of school work? No.

00:26:05.870 - 00:26:23.180

Of course, we had the choir and the orchestra that did their thing, but that's all I did. Did you belong to the choir? No, I belonged to the orchestra. were still playing flute and piccolo?

00:26:24.900 - 00:26:42.960

No, at that time, yes, I guess I was. In that school, did they play for things other than just school things? Did they play for, well not other than school, but for the games? Well, not for games.

00:26:44.920 - 00:27:02.360

Yes, they did. The band played for games and the orchestra had their concerts. They did the Messiah at Christmas time. Kelly: While you were there, did you get to visit home, go back and forth at Christmas

00:27:02.450 - 00:27:07.540

or anything? Ruth: No. Might have gone home for Christmas. I'm sure we did.

00:27:07.540 - 00:27:21.500

We had Christmas vacation, but that's all. While you were there, what was your social life like while you were at College of the Pacific? It wasn't really very much.

00:27:21.660 - 00:27:31.820

It was just with the friends in the dormitory. Did you make outside trips on weekends? How did you spend your weekends? No, we didn't.

00:27:31.840 - 00:27:37.440

Studying? Uh-huh. But your major there was music? Yes.

00:27:37.700 - 00:27:59.120

What did you plan to do with that education? Did you have something in mind? Litz: I think I always wanted to be a band director, but when I got through the University of Nevada, women were not considered for band instructions.

00:28:02.460 - 00:28:17.540

I had to bypass that. I took a job teaching music in Minda, Nevada, which is south of Reno. Kelly: Let me go back and ask you, Lois. When you finished University of the Pacific, then where did you go?

00:28:17.760 - 00:28:32.480

Lois: My senior year was back at University of Nevada. Kelly: Okay. After you graduated from there, you took a job teaching. Lois: It was in an elementary school, eight grades.

00:28:32.860 - 00:28:58.120

But like I say, I wanted to be a band teacher, so I created my own band at this school. I've got a picture of it over here. I had almost every child in that school in the band, and there were maybe twenty-five or thirty in the band.

00:28:58.980 - 00:29:22.280

I had second graders for baton twirlers and, of course, an eighth grader for drum major. But we attracted quite a bit of attention around—if they weren't going to let me to teach high school band, well, I would do this. We had a good marching band.

00:29:23.100 - 00:29:34.400

How far were you away from home when you were teaching? Just fifty miles. Okay, so you could go home occasionally. By that time, had your mother died?

00:29:35.260 - 00:29:54.040

Yes, she died my senior year in college. How did that change you? Well, she had suffered many months in cancer. So it was a relief to see her at peace.

00:29:56.130 - 00:30:11.400

Kelly: By that time, were all the other children out on their own? Litz: Yes, they were all gone. Kelly: What was the year that you were teaching music there? Litz: I started in '36, September of '36.

00:30:12.110 - 00:30:33.680

Kelly: And then how long did you stay at that school? until I joined the WASP, which was about six years. Okay. Somewhere in that interim, you evidently had a desire to fly. Tell me about the first airplane you ever remember seeing that interested you.

00:30:34.260 - 00:30:47.660

What was that like? I never had any thought of flying myself. Now my dad would always take us out. But if a barnstormer came through, he'd take us out and get us a ride in a barnstorming

00:30:47.700 - 00:31:03.820

airplane. But I still, you know, well, it's off limits to women. I didn't give it a thought. And I flew a Ford tri-motor on one of those—I mean, I rode in a Ford tri-motor.

00:31:06.340 - 00:31:21.240

Was that the first airplane you ever went up in? I think the first one was probably a travel air. It was kind of a barnstorming thing. Do you recall how much it cost?

00:31:21.940 - 00:31:36.620

I don't remember. And then the Ford tri-motor, you flew in? There were no seats. We all stood up in the cabin of this airplane.

00:31:38.440 - 00:31:55.680

How many could get in there? Well, I'm sure we had five or more, and they were charging a cent a pound for people to go for a ride. I think I went for about sixty cents.

00:32:00.340 - 00:32:23.400

And then what got you interested in— Well, my younger stepbrother wanted to be an airline pilot, so he was trying to get some flying going. He twisted my arm quite a few times to get me to go down and fly.

00:32:23.560 - 00:32:41.860

I said, "No, I can't afford it. I'm spending my money on music lessons." I wanted to be a violinist, that's what I wanted to do. So anyway, once he got me down there and I got a lesson, I was sold.

00:32:43.660 - 00:33:03.360

From then on, every penny went into flying. Did you know any other girls who were flying? Well, finally they put in the CPT program and there were a couple of girls in the CPT program.

00:33:04.470 - 00:33:16.300

Kelly: Tell me about your first solo. Litz: I don't really remember. Kelly: What kind of aircraft was it? Litz: It was a Taylorcraft, like the little blue one up there.

00:33:20.360 - 00:33:48.380

Did you fly the same airplane all the time or did you fly different airplanes? Well, before I soloed, my instructor started out with a 40-horsepower Taylorcraft and somebody wiped it out. So then after that he had a Luscombe and he had a low-wing Aronca.

00:33:48.600 - 00:34:13.380

I can't remember the designation, but you've never seen one like it. It was side-by-side, low-wing, beautiful airplane, I thought. But then we had to buy this Taylorcraft before I soloed. Kelly: Tell me what your dad thought about your flying.

00:34:13.850 - 00:34:26.180

Litz: He loved it. He was all for it. My mother wouldn't have been for it, but my dad was. Kelly: Were any of your brothers or sisters interested in flying?

00:34:29.500 - 00:34:53.580

One younger stepbrother was in the Marines and got some flight training in a Corsair. And then this older stepbrother was a pilot on Braniff Airlines, there became a pilot. Kelly: So you would teach school and then would you fly in the afternoons or on weekends? Litz: Weekends, that was our agreement.

00:34:53.820 - 00:35:14.740

Three of us bought this airplane. So it was mine on the weekends, and they had it five days a week. What did you enjoy about flying? Seeing the countryside, getting a view of the rivers and the mountains.

00:35:14.860 - 00:35:36.840

It was mountainous country, and up around Lake Tahoe and Mono Lake. And, just thinking that I could go to San Francisco in two hours and forty minutes. Kelly: Did you ever? Beall: Yes, I did several times.

00:35:37.760 - 00:35:57.400

In fact, we had to take the airplane to California for inspections. There were no mechanics in Reno. When did you first—no, before that. Where were you and what do you remember about Pearl Harbor?

00:35:58.960 - 00:36:19.920

Litz: I was out flying that morning when they grounded all the airplanes and I was still up there in the air flying around. So I didn't know about it until I came back home. How did that change your life and the lives of your family?

00:36:25.290 - 00:36:46.200

Litz: It didn't change my life much, except that I had my airplane in a private hangar on a farm. They made me move it to an airport where they could control it. That was Carson City, and I'd have to file a flight plan every time I went out.

00:36:47.800 - 00:37:17.260

All private flying on the Pacific Coast had been closed down completely, so people were coming up from California then to do their flying. Kelly: When did you first hear about the training program for WASP? Well, first I had a telegram from Nancy Love that said, "If you would like to be part

00:37:17.360 - 00:37:45.060

of this group, will you come back to Wilmington and take a flight test?" Well, I was afraid to go back to Wilmington and take a flight test, so I didn't go. Then I got a telegram from Jacqueline Cochran. She said, "If you're interested, meet me in San Francisco on this day and we'll

00:37:45.280 - 00:38:08.880

talk about it." I still didn't have any intentions of joining the WASP. I went to San Francisco and Jacqueline Cochran wasn't there, Ethel Sheehy was there. So I told Ethel, I said, "I have no intention of joining the military.

00:38:08.980 - 00:38:26.400

I just came to meet Jacqueline Cochran." So she said, "Well, if you change your mind, you can go to Mayfield and take the physical examination on such a day." So again, I was curious.

00:38:26.620 - 00:38:45.120

I had heard the guys talk about this physical exam, which was so tough. I thought, "I wear glasses, so they're not going to pass me." I went down and took the physical exam, and they did pass me. Kelly: Who gave you that exam?

00:38:45.400 - 00:38:55.000

Was it a male or a female? Reed: It was a male. I don't think there were many female doctors in that time. Was he hesitant about doing it?

00:38:56.140 - 00:39:12.680

Levy: Oh, I don't think so. Kelly: Okay. Do you have any idea how Cochran got your name? Levy: From the civil aeronautics files, because I had a commercial license and it was on record

00:39:13.200 - 00:39:27.700

with the CAA. Kelly: And at that point, Lois, about how many hours had you accumulated? I had 500 hours and a commercial license. Kelly: When you got down to Mather, were there any other girls taking the physical?

00:39:27.900 - 00:39:46.320

Ritz: Oh, yes, lots of them. It was Fran Dias of Class W-2. I can't remember. There were a couple of others, but I can't name them.

00:39:46.760 - 00:40:04.760

Anyway, there were quite a bunch. Kelly: Let's stop. How were you notified then that you had passed that physical and would be accepted for training? Litz: I don't remember.

00:40:04.940 - 00:40:25.400

I suppose it was a letter or a telegram. Kelly: Tell me what you thought you were getting into. What did you know about what they wanted? Well, I was sure a country gal from Nevada, and I didn't know if I could get along with

00:40:25.500 - 00:40:39.200

these people from the rest of the country. I expected them to all be so different, but they weren't. We were all just the same. de

00:41:08.840 - 00:41:20.060

Once you finished that physical, had you flown to Mather in your own airplane? No, we drove down. I drove down with Iris Critchell. I don't know if you know her or not.

00:41:21.280 - 00:41:42.940

She was teaching ground school in Carson City. She went down to take the physical the same time I did. So we drove down and back. Then how long before you were notified to report and what did it say?

00:41:50.140 - 00:42:10.400

We might have gone down there, no it was early December I guess, we may have taken that physical. We were taken for the January class. Were you aware of what the girls were going through in Houston at the time you took that physical?

00:42:12.320 - 00:42:29.820

Litz: Well, I was in Houston as the third class. I did not know what I was getting into. Kelly: What did your dad think about you going into the military, which I assume he thought you would be going into?

00:42:30.240 - 00:42:44.460

He didn't object, and I'm sure he was very proud ever after. What did the children think that you were teaching? Were they aware of what you were doing? Oh, yes.

00:42:44.580 - 00:43:02.020

They knew I was flying. Everybody in the area did. Were you ever able to take any of the children for a ride? I took a mother and her small daughter one time.

00:43:05.320 - 00:43:36.360

I guess maybe I did take a couple of boys because when I moved the airplane from Reno out to Minden area, it was four of my schoolboys who helped drag the landing strip. I do not know if I took them for a ride or not. Oh yes, one of them did go with me several times, Jim Williams, and he became a principal

00:43:36.540 - 00:43:49.820

in Las Vegas schools. Kelly: I was starting to say, was he a teacher's pet? Ruzell: They were all my pets. Kelly: Do you remember some outstanding kids that you taught?

00:43:56.300 - 00:44:14.520

Ruzell: Well, this was a German community, and I'm telling you, they were all outstanding. Kelly: Well, that kid must have been to go on to be a principal. Were you able to take your dad flying? Yes, I took him flying.

00:44:14.520 - 00:44:32.920

He flew with me once from El Paso to Dallas. And then he came back later and took flying lessons and got his license. How old was he at that point? He was sixty-five.

00:44:33.160 - 00:44:51.460

Wow. How did you get from Reno down to Houston? Lillian: We drove down in my car. Much to my surprise, they were rationing gasoline at that time.

00:44:53.780 - 00:45:12.540

My dad says, "Why don't you just, for curiosity, go see if they will give you gasoline to drive your car down there?" Well, they did. So Dad and Stepmother went with me to drive down to Houston, and then they went back on

00:45:12.620 - 00:45:22.560

the train. I had a car there. I was the only person there with a car. Kelly: Lois, that was in the middle of the school year.

00:45:22.700 - 00:45:39.020

How did you handle— Lee: They didn't give me any trouble about it. You just broke in a new teacher. Did the children do anything special when you left, do you recall?

00:45:39.880 - 00:45:48.960

Litz: They gave me a nice suitcase with my initials on it. Kelly: Do you still have it? Litz: Oh, no. It wore out.

00:45:48.960 - 00:46:06.580

Kelly: It wore out. When you got to Houston, what did you do? The first thing I remember, I think we met at the Mayflower Hotel, and that's where we registered and signed in.

00:46:08.080 - 00:46:28.900

Then we were assigned to a place to live, and I was assigned to the Motor Inn Motel, which was on South Main Street. And then there was another motel close by where some of the other kids were staying, the gals.

00:46:31.120 - 00:46:56.860

And an old cattle bus took us from the motel out to the airport every day. So it was a motel. Kelly: How many of you were staying at that particular motel, do you recall? I couldn't tell you for sure, but most of the gals I was with were of Class W-2, and

00:46:57.100 - 00:47:21.720

most of my class were over at the other motel. Kelly: Go through and tell me what a day was like as far as flying and ground school when you were in Houston. It's hard to remember, but there was a mess hall out there, and we would all be standing

00:47:21.900 - 00:47:41.640

around the flight line during the day waiting for our turn to fly, or we would be in a ground school class nearby. I've been back down there and there's one hangar there that is the old hangar we were close to.

00:47:42.820 - 00:47:55.760

The old municipal building is still there. It's empty and it's a beautiful place. I wish somebody could use it. Kelly: Tell me about your ground school.

00:47:55.880 - 00:48:13.560

What did that consist of? Well, navigation, meteorology, engines, aircraft, code. We had a code class and had to learn Morse code. What were your instructors like?

00:48:13.560 - 00:48:29.680

Were they Army, Air Force, or civilians? Who taught you to fly? They were civilians, yeah, for the most part. What was your biggest fear as far as the whole program?

00:48:31.820 - 00:48:46.880

I don't think I had any. Did you have check rides? Yes, definitely. And who would give you those check rides?

00:48:49.000 - 00:49:11.300

Some of the instructors were Czech pilots, but our final Czech pilot was an Army man. I don't know if he was a lieutenant or a captain. Maybe there were two Army men, and everybody was scared of them. Kelly: So you did have a fear.

00:49:11.690 - 00:49:33.320

Roslyn: Well, not too much. Not that I lost any sleep over it. Describe the airplanes that you flew in training at Houston. Well, I started out in some light plane, maybe Taylorcraft and Cub, Piper Cub.

00:49:34.640 - 00:49:59.200

But they soon got rid of those and got the PT-19 Fairchild. We thought we were flying a big airplane. Then from that we went to the BT-13 and the AT-6 and the AT-17, which was the—they called it the "double-breasted cub."

00:49:59.600 - 00:50:16.940

Two engines. Kelly: While you were in Houston, did Ms. Cochran ever visit? Yes, I guess mostly she was just there for graduations. We won't answer that.

00:50:17.420 - 00:50:23.400

We'll just let it go. Are you sure? Yeah, it's a machine. Hello, you've reached the handler.

00:50:23.980 - 00:50:36.320

Okey-doke. Okay. While you were in Houston, what did they tell you the course would—how long would Would you be in training and what did you expect?

00:50:38.320 - 00:51:03.780

I think it was going to be six months. We spent a lot of time just sitting on the flight line because the fog came in every day and we would wait for the fog to roll away so we could fly. So that's the reason, I guess, Cochran wanted to get moved out of there and up to Sweetwater,

00:51:04.860 - 00:51:23.940

where we would have better flying weather. So my last six weeks I did at Sweetwater. Kelly: Tell me about that move from Houston to Sweetwater. Well, they had a lot of airplanes that had to be moved.

00:51:23.940 - 00:51:48.160

We had the PTs and the BTs that had to go. So most everybody was flying an airplane, but I had a car and I had to move. So I was moving my car up to Sweetwater and Betty Archibald was driving with me, Betty Fernandez.

00:51:51.100 - 00:52:04.880

So that's how we got up there. Kelly: Describe for me what the field at Sweetwater looked like when you got there. Ruzicka: I don't remember. It was just another airport.

00:52:05.480 - 00:52:20.760

It wasn't very big, and there was a Southwest runway. That runway is the only one I can remember. I don't know if there was another one or not. Kelly: Could you describe the barracks that you lived in?

00:52:20.980 - 00:52:46.920

Litz: Yeah, they were small and there was only room for six women in each bay. We called it a bay. It wasn't a B-O-Q, it was a bay. So anyway, three beds on one side and three beds on the other and one shower.

00:52:49.200 - 00:53:07.600

It was difficult to get the shower at times. What were the rules like when you were in training? I don't remember the rules except the one that I broke all the time, and that was no talking after ten o'clock.

00:53:10.580 - 00:53:24.160

Or maybe it was nine o'clock, but I think it was ten. No conversation, but I broke that rule all the time on just being, what did you say, stubborn or something. Kelly: Friendly.

00:53:24.200 - 00:53:45.660

Beall: Whatever. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make once you went into training? I don't recall anything in particular. We were busy enough not to worry.

00:53:47.840 - 00:54:10.980

When you went to Sweetwater, had you been to any of the graduations before you went to Sweetwater, of the upper class? McMillan: Now, it seems to me the first class graduated at Houston. And yes, there was a military drill and we all had to march on this particular occasion.

00:54:12.360 - 00:54:31.700

Then I think the second class graduated from Sweetwater. What were your uniforms like for flying and for dress? At that time there were no uniforms, so we just all bought khaki slacks with a white shirt and a black necktie.

00:54:33.020 - 00:54:56.620

And to fly in, what did you wear? I think we had coveralls, you know, the flying coveralls. Tell me what your flying training consisted of. It was really the one that was on the phone.

00:54:57.040 - 00:55:08.240

Oh, okay. I came to check on you. In your flying training, did you get some cross-country experience? Yes.

00:55:08.420 - 00:55:36.040

Do you recall any specific trip you took that stands out? Litz: Oh, that's embarrassing to tell you. It was always a triangular pattern to Childress and somewhere and back to base again. We had three airplanes in the flight, and so the instructor told me to be the leader

00:55:35.940 - 00:56:12.080

on the first leg. Well, I followed the wrong railroad track. Took everybody off course. My intercom wasn't working very well. I didn't get my intercom tuned in, so he couldn't talk to me. I'm sure he was furious. They all had to follow me on this short track that I took them on, then somebody else took over the second leg and somebody on the third.

00:56:16.040 - 00:56:33.800

That cut our flying time short. We were supposed to get in three hours, I guess, and only got in maybe two hours. That meant we had to schedule another flight. That's what I remember.

00:56:33.800 - 00:56:44.500

Kelly: But you did not wash out? Smith: No. Kelly: Did any of your baymates or close friends wash out? Smith: Yeah, quite a few.

00:56:45.420 - 00:57:14.420

Kelly: How did that affect you? Smith: Well, I just did not give it too much thought. As we go back to it now, I would think maybe that wasn't just right. I'll tell you about one who washed out who had been working for Piper before she got

00:57:14.480 - 00:57:36.740

into the WASP. So then she went back to Piper, I think, after she got out and flew again for quite a while. Then she became a travel agent. She's up in Alaska.

00:57:38.860 - 00:58:02.340

But I'm sure that whatever her problem was could have been corrected. if they had just wanted to take a little time to correct it. Then there was another one who washed out, who worked in the office. I have her picture up there somewhere, Jean Howard.

00:58:02.740 - 00:58:27.120

I do not know if you have interviewed her or not. She worked in the establishment office with Mrs. Deaton. And then after the WASPs were disbanded, she went back to helicopter flying, and she is the leader of women helicopter pilots today.

00:58:29.340 - 00:58:45.180

So you know, whatever her problem was in flying, I think they could have corrected it. Tell me about your bay mates. Well, of course, I had five of them in Sweetwater. And one of them was Betty Fernandez.

00:58:46.380 - 00:58:57.720

Ah, okay. But the one I had in Houston was Anna Frankman. Isabel is her name now. Anna Frankman Isabel.

00:58:59.060 - 00:59:18.140

And she was a good pilot. Levy: As far as different walks of life that these girls came from that were your baymates, were they all different as far as their backgrounds? Do you know what they did?

00:59:18.140 - 00:59:29.640

Lucky: Betty Fernandez, I think, had been a control tower operator, hadn't she? Yes. So that was her background. Were there other teachers?

00:59:31.320 - 00:59:44.320

Wheeler: Other what? Kelly: Other teachers like you who had been teaching? Wheeler: Yes, there were, but I can't name any of them offhand. A lot of them went into teaching after the wars.

00:59:44.470 - 00:59:54.680

Kelly: Tell me about your graduation. Wheeler: I don't remember. I really don't. Kelly: Do you recall if Ms. Cochran came?

00:59:54.820 - 01:00:10.200

Yes, she was there, and I think Cap Arnold was there, too. Levy: When was the first time you met her? Did you meet her personally, Cochran? Steele: The first time I met her personally was in Washington, D.C.

01:00:12.980 - 01:00:40.360

We had graduated, and we had all gone to our ferry bases, and I went to Romulus. When we were not there more than two days, we all got telegrams to report to Washington, D.C. So D.C. 3 took us to Washington, and here's all my class back together again.

01:00:41.020 - 01:01:01.980

Not all of them, but twenty-five, I think, had been called to Washington. We met Cochran in Hap Arnold's office in the Pentagon. So at that time, Hap Arnold said they were going to try something new. They had a new mission.

01:01:03.440 - 01:01:41.300

They didn't want us to talk about it, not until we see how it worked out. So they were sending us down to Camp Davis to work out in tow target programs. That included radar tracking missions, towing targets, flying for searchlights at night, buzzing the troops sometimes.

01:01:42.160 - 01:01:56.740

We buzzed troops out here. I don't think we did it at Camp Davis. Kelly: How did you get then from Washington to Camp Davis? McMillan: They took us down in a DC-3, and the pilots couldn't find Camp Davis.

01:01:58.940 - 01:02:23.500

They landed at Wilmington and got instructions, and then we could get back to Camp Davis. When you got to Camp Davis, were you in the first group of girls to be stationed there? Where did you live? At first, they put us in, I think, an enlisted men's quarters.

01:02:23.960 - 01:02:35.740

They didn't know what to do with us. This was so new. We also ate in the enlisted men's mess hall. It was awful.

01:02:37.080 - 01:02:55.380

I thought, "Boy, we could feed our men something better than this." Kelly: How were you assigned to missions at Camp Davis? Would you have the same mission every day? Dyson: No.

01:02:57.680 - 01:03:20.040

No, I didn't stay at Camp Davis too long. I moved on to Camp Stewart, Georgia. Kelly: While you were at Camp Davis, what did you do? McMillan: I can only remember—I should look in my logbook and find out what I did there.

01:03:20.120 - 01:03:45.980

I remembered a night flight with Marcia Courtney. Are you going to talk to her out in the Tucson area? She was at Camp Davis, and she and I had a night flight in a C-78. And then we had some tracking missions, which there were two water towers on the area, and

01:03:46.040 - 01:04:02.600

we would fly figure-8s around the water tower. And the guys on the ground were tracking us with radar. What kind of airplane? They were small, slow airplanes like Taylor Craft and Cub.

01:04:03.660 - 01:04:21.580

And you stayed there how long? Let's see. I left there in October. We went there in July, so I had August, September, and I think early October I moved on.

01:04:23.440 - 01:04:43.540

Did other WASPs move on with you, or were you the only one? Litz: Yes. No, there were fifteen of us went from Camp Davis to Liberty Field, Georgia. That's where we would get the training in flying radio-control drone targets.

01:04:43.810 - 01:05:01.080

Kelly: And who were your instructors? Tell me about flying a drone. go through a mission flying a drone, what would you do? Well, we would have a mothership and the target ship.

01:05:04.360 - 01:05:27.040

Usually there would be a safety pilot riding in the target ship for training. In the mothership, there would be the pilot and the co-pilot had a little control box about yea big and a little stick like so. I do not remember exactly how the stick worked.

01:05:29.580 - 01:05:51.380

Far back I think was brake. Then there was some way to give it full throttle and then the stick would control it directionally. I do not remember, but Holly's tape will tell you those details. Would you ride in the mothership or in the drone?

01:05:51.520 - 01:06:10.960

We did all three of them. We did all three of them at different times. We flew fairly close formation. The object was to put this drone out in front of the firing line.

01:06:11.340 - 01:06:24.480

The mothership flew along behind the firing line and then turned it around and bring it back. Kelly: Do you know, Lois, what they were going to use those drones for as far as the war effort?

01:06:25.430 - 01:06:45.660

Litz: Well, they're using them now quite a lot. At that time, it was very experimental. I don't know whether they thought they might send a drone into combat, real combat or not. They never got to that point.

01:06:45.670 - 01:07:15.560

Kelly: But on these drones, was there ammunition or was it more for gathering? No, the men on the ground were anti-aircraft artillery, and I think they were mainly just tracking the airplane with radar. But there was some firing, but they weren't supposed to shoot these things down because

01:07:15.560 - 01:07:34.940

they were expensive. But sometimes flak would damage this airplane so they couldn't bring it home. And in that case, they could take it out and self-destruct the target plane if they couldn't bring it home.

01:07:35.790 - 01:07:59.160

Kelly: And your flying in either of those ships, were you ever in any danger, did you feel? Not really, no. It was talked about sometimes that the radar would pick up the bigger noise, which was

01:07:59.220 - 01:08:14.200

behind the firing line, and it might fire on the mother airship instead of the target. But I don't know if that really happened or not. I guess it did. Kelly: What kind of airplanes were used for that mothership?

01:08:14.340 - 01:08:33.400

What did you fly? McMillan: Well, with the PQ-8, they used the twin-engine Cessna. It was a mothership, the PQ-8. Then when they went to the PQ-14, they had to use a twin-beach, which was a C-45.

01:08:34.060 - 01:08:47.200

Kelly: Was that your main mission at Camp Stuart? That's all we did at Camp Stewart. Where did you live at Camp Stewart? We lived in the bachelor offices' quarters.

01:08:48.560 - 01:09:01.420

It was wintertime and it was cold. Was the food better there? The food was okay. And then at some point you got orders to go someplace else.

01:09:01.620 - 01:09:15.480

Where did you go? Then from there we came to Bigsfield, Texas. Five of us did. Five went to Otis Field in Massachusetts, and I think five went to Eglin Field in Florida.

01:09:16.640 - 01:09:31.220

Now, Dora Doherty was in that bunch with me. The fifteen, Dora was in that bunch. Kelly: Did they close that program then at Stewart, or did other WASPs come in? Litz: No, other classes followed.

01:09:31.480 - 01:09:47.340

I think there might have been three groups altogether. Reifel: How did you feel about coming back to Texas? Litz: It was okay by me. Reifel: Did it split you up from some of your closest friends?

01:09:48.530 - 01:10:14.060

Litz: Well, there were five of us in my class that were together totally from beginning to end. Lois Hollingsworth was one, Kay Menjies-Brick, I don't know if you knew her, Betty Dueser Buddy, who is out in the Oakland area.

01:10:16.920 - 01:10:30.420

Anyway, five of us were together all the time. Kelly: How did you get from Camp Stewart out to Biggs? Did they fly you out? No, we hitchhiked on military.

01:10:31.510 - 01:10:52.660

There was no special flight. We just went to the Savannah Airport and waited around until we could find somebody going west. There was a B-25 going from Savannah out to Brooksfield in Texas, which is down yonder.

01:10:53.560 - 01:11:10.160

Well, the B-25 has no room for passengers, but there was a little cubby hole behind the pilots where we could stand up. Couldn't sit down. We were like two sardines in this place, and we rode out to Texas.

01:11:11.920 - 01:11:45.320

And we got to Brooks Field, so then what did we find to fly? Well then there was a B-34 going from Brooks to Marchfield in California. Well we thought we might go to March and be close to her home and then come back. But as it turned out, this pilot got badly lost in a cold front that was between San

01:11:45.320 - 01:12:09.160

to wherever we were, Brooksfield, and going to Marchfield. Now, usually a cold front is only about fifty miles across, and you could get over the top and get across, but he didn't. He kept wandering and wandering, and I guess the clouds were too high.

01:12:09.840 - 01:12:34.100

We were up at 18,000 feet without oxygen. We just told all of us not to move around, just sit there. It was a long, long time, but this airplane had eleven hours of fuel on it, so we didn't have to worry, I guess.

01:12:35.540 - 01:12:51.080

We finally came out of the storm. We were in Albuquerque, New Mexico. So then we called our base here at El Paso and they said, "Well, you better just get on down here."

01:12:51.080 - 01:13:08.980

We took a train from Albuquerque down. Kelly: What happened to your car? McMillan: Oh, after I graduated, I took it back home and gave it to my sister. When you got down to Biggs, where did you live?

01:13:11.160 - 01:13:36.180

Litz: In the bachelor officer's quarters at BOQ. Kelly: What was your assignment at Biggs? Litz: Well, I was sent here, first of all, to do this radio-controlled drone target flying. I did not want to be in this rut all the time, so we all did get to fly other things.

01:13:37.260 - 01:13:54.660

I did a lot of searchlight night work. I wanted nighttime. Kelly: Tell me what a searchlight mission was all about. Litz: Well, you see, during World War II, they could not shoot at an airplane at night

01:13:54.820 - 01:14:12.020

because they did not know where it was. So they would try to get it in these very powerful searchlights. I can't remember. They were much bigger than this and shining thousands of candle power.

01:14:12.200 - 01:14:28.980

I don't know what. But they could put this searchlight on an airplane and then shoot it down. So my job then was to just give them practice at night. I'd go up and fly.

01:14:29.580 - 01:14:44.960

They'd put these searchlights on, and you had to have an instrument rating or you wouldn't survive having those searchlights on you. Kelly: What kind of airplane would you fly? Litz: Usually a Twin Beach.

01:14:46.420 - 01:14:57.200

While you were at Biggs, then you got a temporary assignment to go someplace. Tell us about that, to OCS. Did you do that? Dyson: Oh, yes.

01:14:57.250 - 01:15:13.020

I did go to OCS in Orlando. Kelly: Tell us about that training. Dyson: Mostly it was military law, so there was no flying training. It was all book learning.

01:15:14.600 - 01:15:33.080

Why did they send you to that school? McMillan: Considering the fact that we were going to be military officers, we needed this officer candidate training. Kelly: Were there other girls who went with you?

01:15:34.360 - 01:15:55.880

McMillan: There were several bunches at different times. Now Marsha Bellassai was with me at Orlando for the We Room Together. Kelly: How long were you there? Bellassai: I think it was six weeks.

01:15:58.000 - 01:16:08.980

I'm not sure. Kelly: And then you came back to Biggs? Bellassai: Came back here, yes. Then, were there other types of missions you flew other than searchlight and drones?

01:16:11.740 - 01:16:28.800

We had buzzing missions. There were thousands of troops training out here at Fort Bess, so we were supposed to go out sometimes and buzz them. Real buzz job, legal.

01:16:29.860 - 01:16:53.400

Was that your favorite mission? No, I think I only did that a couple of times. See there was lots of radar tracking and we towed targets with the B-34. Some of the other gals at Camp Davis had used a smaller airplane for towing.

01:16:54.200 - 01:17:10.600

Kelly: And when you towed targets, were you in the B-24 towing a target for what airplane? Or was it for ground? Litz: It was anti-aircraft artillery. It was ground-to-air, in other words.

01:17:11.100 - 01:17:30.480

Now the gals down at Harlingen, I think, were flying air-to-air gunnery. You know, they're towing the target, another airplane is shooting at the target. But here was ground troops shooting. Kelly: Of all the different kinds of missions you flew, what was your favorite to fly?

01:17:30.730 - 01:17:52.180

Litz: Searchlights. Kelly: While you were at Biggs, when did you hear that the WASPs were going to be disbanded, and how did that make you feel? I am not one to get upset about it, I guess.

01:17:52.180 - 01:18:10.220

I just figure that's the way it is. There were lots of men coming home from combat in Europe. They had flown their fifty missions, and they were coming back here, and they needed jobs to do.

01:18:12.500 - 01:18:48.080

Then some 30,000 men had been taken out of flight training and put into the ground troops for the European invasion. Their flight instructors were all out of jobs, so they wanted to do what we were doing. So there was good reason for—actually, it was expensive to put us out when we were now

01:18:48.280 - 01:19:09.220

well trained to do our job. And they would have to train these new men to do it all over again. Kelly: In all the bases where you were stationed, did you ever have any near mishaps or anything that might have frightened you during that time?

01:19:09.220 - 01:19:24.000

Litz: I had a lot of them out here at Biggs Field. Kelly: Want to describe one? Litz: Well, one of them was after a towing mission. I was flying copilot with this guy.

01:19:26.140 - 01:19:41.480

He had a reputation and nobody wanted to fly with him. So Emma went up with him one day and checked him out. "Oh, he's okay," she says. So then I decided to go with him the next time around.

01:19:44.080 - 01:19:58.780

We did our tow mission. Everything was fine. We came back, and he decided he was going to practice single engine, which you're not supposed to do under 10,000 feet above the surface.

01:19:59.800 - 01:20:26.860

We only had 3,000 feet. He cut the left engine, and he didn't trim the airplane. I kept watching the airspeed indicator. I knew this airplane would stall at 87 miles an hour, but it stalled at 110 and fell off

01:20:26.860 - 01:20:38.280

on one wing, starting to spin. He recovered it. I'll hand him that. He was a skilled pilot, really, but he just got bored with our routine.

01:20:42.400 - 01:21:09.860

He recovered it and we got back to base. After that, they transferred him to Alaska. When there were two crewmen in the back, I don't think they had seats or seatbelts. They rolled out the target on this reel, and they brought it back in.

01:21:10.960 - 01:21:33.340

But there they are back there with no seatbelts when this airplane does a flip like this. So a toolbox went up in the air and came down on the guy's foot. So that was another bad thing about the trip. They were grabbing for their parachutes.

01:21:33.460 - 01:21:45.160

They didn't have their chutes on. They were trying to get them on so they could bail out. How bad. What was your favorite airplane to fly?

01:21:46.380 - 01:22:11.580

Of all the airplanes you've flown? Dwight: I liked the A-24, the Douglas dive bomber, except that the ones that we had had already been worn out in combat flying. So they sent them back for us to use, and it was a good airplane.

01:22:13.260 - 01:22:27.360

But we had lots of mishaps with them. I think two of my classmates were killed in the A-24. Were any of your— No, you can ask her about that.

01:22:27.440 - 01:22:33.240

Okay. We're rolling. Okay, one more tape. I changed tape.

01:22:33.860 - 01:22:40.080

Boy, you're wasting a lot of tape. Oh, this is great. You're doing just terrific. This is great.

01:22:40.460 - 01:22:53.520

It was at Bigs Field that we were— Unusual. Something unusual, right. Any of the others that you would like to tell us about that you recall?

01:22:53.880 - 01:23:03.880

I don't know how much more you can stand. How much more tape you got? You're the first interview. I've got lots of tape. You may run out.

01:23:04.440 - 01:23:14.720

No. No, you go right ahead. No, I'm not going to run out. I was going to ask you, someplace between the time you graduated and the time we were

01:23:14.720 - 01:23:30.640

disbanded, you got new uniforms. Tell us about those uniforms. Well, before we got those new blues, they were letting us wear officers' pinks and greens.

01:23:32.980 - 01:23:47.040

I liked those. I like the pinks and greens really better than our blue. And I've got a picture up there with the pinks and greens. It's not colored.

01:23:50.700 - 01:24:12.580

So we wore those for quite a while, and then we got the blues kind of late, really, maybe only for the last six months. Kelly: While you were serving, doing your missions, was there ever a time when you were able to go back home and visit your dad?

01:24:15.840 - 01:24:38.620

Litz: Hollingsworth and I had a trip one time. This lieutenant was going on leave to San Francisco, and so he got an airplane to go to Hamilton Field. So Holly and I would fly him out there and bring the airplane back.

01:24:40.280 - 01:25:07.560

So in the course of coming back, we detoured to Reno and stayed all night with my folks. They wouldn't let me show my dad the airplane, which was disappointing, but that was a fun trip. Kelly: Were any of the WASPs killed at any of the bases where you were stationed?

01:25:08.140 - 01:25:23.880

Yes, Mabel Rawlinson was killed at Camp Davis while I was there. Do you recall anything about that particular flight? Where were you? I was in the barracks.

01:25:23.980 - 01:25:49.760

Now there were maybe only three airplanes up, night flying, in quadrants. They would fly around here and one over here. And then they'd come in, take their turns coming in for landing. Mabel Rawlinson was up there with Lieutenant Robillard in the back seat.

01:25:49.780 - 01:26:07.620

He was her check pilot. I heard an airplane coming over our barracks very low and with engine trouble. The engine was popping and choking. Several of us ran out.

01:26:07.740 - 01:26:38.480

I cannot remember who else was there, but it went over our barracks at about 200 feet. They really could not get lined up with the runway on the field. I think they landed on the field, and they hit—must have been wheels up. So they got on the ground in a good position.

01:26:39.240 - 01:26:59.320

The airplane broke in two, and the lieutenant was free and clear, but Mabel was trapped in that front cockpit. I think she couldn't get the hatch open. So that was our night flying.

01:27:00.230 - 01:27:20.960

Did Ms. Cochran come after that? She came after that in order to kind of inspect a little bit herself. Somebody had circulated the rumor that there was sugar in the gas tank. Now whether that's true or not, we don't know.

01:27:25.680 - 01:27:43.800

The women were new on the field. Maybe somebody did resemble enough to do something like that, but I don't think so. Kelly: When they decided to deactivate the WASP— Somebody's coming.

01:27:47.040 - 01:28:05.720

When the WASPs were disbanded, did Bigsfield have anything special? Did they do anything special? They had a dinner for us, yes, and kind of a get-together. Then how did you get from Bigs—where did you go?

01:28:08.500 - 01:28:36.220

When I heard that the WASPs were being disbanded, I started coming over here to get my flight instructor rating, which I did. I immediately got a job here, although I had some time at home before I took this job. Kelly: Who was your flight instructor's rating?

01:28:37.150 - 01:28:50.140

Who taught you? Bill Harrison. Okay. And was it a private airfield? It was the El Paso International, I guess it was International even at that time.

01:28:50.580 - 01:29:07.960

Okay. Anyway, it's the main field they were here. Okay. So even before you got out of the WASP, you knew you were going to stay in El Paso? I didn't know it too soon.

01:29:08.100 - 01:29:34.840

It wasn't until I got my flight instructor rating that he offered me a job. Kelly: During your time in the WASP, had you met any special male friends that remained friends? There was one here in El Paso, his last name was Barnett, Lieutenant Barnett.

01:29:36.120 - 01:29:56.860

But he was an older man who kind of fathered the WASP who came. You know, he played father to us. He lived here until he died. I'm trying to think of anybody else.

01:29:56.940 - 01:30:10.460

I don't. Kelly: Okay. When you got your rating as an instructor, then what did you do? McMillan: I just started working out here at Del Paso International Airport.

01:30:10.940 - 01:30:22.880

Kelly: Were you working independently? Or were you— Litzinger No, no, no. The man who was teaching me for my flight instructor rating had two airplanes.

01:30:24.720 - 01:30:50.200

He hired me, and then he merged with another flying school owned by Ed Engler. Then the GI flight training program came along. So we were busy, busy for a while. As you look back over your training and the basis where you were stationed as a WASP,

01:30:50.760 - 01:31:16.060

is there anything that I've left out that you would like to talk about or any stories that you would like to tell? Anything at all? Well, I would like to say, when I first went to Houston, there was immediately an accident

01:31:16.300 - 01:31:35.220

in which a WASP was killed in a PT-19 with her instructor. They came back and said, "Well, it was pilot error." I couldn't believe it. I thought, "How can it be pilot error if there's an instructor in the airplane?"

01:31:35.240 - 01:31:51.100

Well then, after all of my years of flying and ending up out here at Bigsfield, I had seen so much pilot error that I can believe it. It was pilot error. Kelly: Who was it?

01:31:52.320 - 01:32:09.320

The CAA had at that time said eighty-seven percent of the accidents were pilot error. Kelly: Do you recall that WASP name? Litz: No, I've got it in my scrapbook. Kelly: Is it Oldenburg?

01:32:09.320 - 01:32:25.720

Litz: Yeah, Margaret Oldenburg, I think that's who it was. When you started giving flight instruction, did you have female students as well as male students? Steele I had some.

01:32:26.820 - 01:32:37.320

Kelly How did they compare with the male students? What was your experience? Steele I don't think it's a matter of male or female.

01:32:42.920 - 01:33:05.900

If you have the skill to drive a car or be a pilot, you've got it. But I did have one woman that I refused to solo. Kelly: What was her problem? McMillan: On the ground school work, she was copying answers from her husband's paper

01:33:06.700 - 01:33:30.680

and getting good grades. But in the airplane, she reflected that she had no knowledge of what was going on. Do you know of any students that you had, eventually what they became in the field of aviation or other fields?

01:33:31.120 - 01:33:55.420

One of my students, Gardner Bride, was thirteen years old when he started flying with me. Of course, he could not solo until he was sixteen. Then he put in two hitches in the Navy, and he went with United Airlines, and he has retired from United Airlines.

01:33:58.080 - 01:34:33.540

Now there are some who went off and did things that I probably do not know what they did. Of the WASPs that you met, you made some lasting friendships. Do you want to tell us about a special lasting friendship? There are several that I'm still in contact with, but Lois Ziler and I were in the same

01:34:33.640 - 01:35:06.980

program all the way through. Then when we got out of the WASP, we taught flying and ground school here in El Paso. Then she got married and had three kids and moved out on the farm. We never could understand that, because she had graduated from Purdue University with

01:35:07.060 - 01:35:30.400

an engineering degree, and she had been working for Pratt & Whitney in Connecticut. So why would she want to be a farmer's wife, but she did. They had their farm out here. They didn't get rich, but they did okay.

01:35:32.280 - 01:35:58.680

Kelly: How long did you teach flying? About five years steady, and I had my flight examiner's rating. But then after the GI flight training program was dropped, there weren't enough students, so I went back to public school teaching here in El Paso.

01:35:59.040 - 01:36:23.380

Kelly: And what did you teach? At what grade levels then? It was fifth grade through high school. First it was just band in elementary school, and then I switched to orchestra.

01:36:24.840 - 01:36:41.860

I had an elementary, a junior high, and a high school. I spent two periods in each school. Kelly: That's interesting. Then at some point, you must have met someone special.

01:36:43.120 - 01:37:07.400

Lee: Yes, well, Mr. Haley was my flying student, and he got his commercial pilot license. And so, we had one son, and then we were separated. Kelly: What made you fall in love with him? Lee: Oh, flying, I guess.

01:37:08.440 - 01:37:23.320

He was a good commercial pilot. He was just generally an all-around good man anyway. Kelly: Then you had a son. Tell me about that son.

01:37:23.380 - 01:37:47.200

Litz: Andy? I thought you knew all about him. He had very poor eyesight, and I never realized it. So say during his first six years or more, he was flying with me and nothing impressed

01:37:47.320 - 01:38:12.460

him because poor guy didn't see anything out there. His eyes were so bad and I didn't realize that until he was in the fifth grade. And of course he hadn't been learning to read well in school. But one of my friends got him in seventh grade and she said, "In fact, you got a whole

01:38:12.580 - 01:38:38.840

bunch of kids that couldn't read." So she got special permission to take them all back to phonics and first grade stuff. She brought his reading up three years in one semester. And she brought up his math and other subjects, too.

01:38:39.660 - 01:38:59.340

So finally, he got through college and got his engineering degree. Kelly: Tell me some of the things that you shared with him when he was growing up, some of the activities. Did you teach him band?

01:39:00.970 - 01:39:15.920

I tried. He did not take that very seriously. I always took him on fishing trips with some of his friends. Were you involved in PTA?

01:39:18.240 - 01:39:36.320

Not any more than I—well, I really did not have time for PTA. I was teaching music before school and after school and then lunch hour. Kelly: And then you kept teaching until when? Litz: Until 1980.

01:39:37.220 - 01:39:51.400

That's when I retired. Kelly: By that time, Andy was how old? Was he already out of school? Litz: Oh, yes.

01:39:55.960 - 01:40:31.520

He was, I guess he was about 40 years old when I retired. Okay, and since you retired, what things have you done? I'm in the El Paso Aviation Hall of Fame, which is up there on the wall. I work part-time at that museum on the west side.

01:40:35.900 - 01:40:52.020

Mostly I write letters to the newspaper. [Laughter] activities since you got out of the WASP? Litz: Not particularly.

01:40:52.260 - 01:41:14.660

I did go to California last April and made a talk to the 99s, Mount Diablo chapter of 99s. Kelly: Do you know why you were selected for the El Paso Hall of Fame? Was it your WASP?

01:41:15.120 - 01:41:30.900

Wasp experience had a lot to do with it and my flight instructing here in the area. But not your band directing? No. And now, what makes you happy now?

01:41:33.500 - 01:42:02.720

My nap in the afternoon. I still like going out to the museum on the west side. I like just driving around and seeing how the country has changed, I mean in this area. Kelly: During this lifetime, Lois, there have been ups and downs, I'm sure, and happy

01:42:02.840 - 01:42:13.880

times and sad times. What has gotten you through the sad times? I have not had any really sad times. God has been good to you, has He not?

01:42:14.080 - 01:42:31.960

He sure has. Could I ask you, what is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? I do not feel that I know her well enough. I have met her several times and I know what she has done and I have read about her.

01:42:34.980 - 01:43:04.840

I know that a lot of the class one and two really dislike her, because they were Nancy Love's gals. Class one and two were Nancy Love. So now you'll have to hand it to Jacqueline, because we would not have gotten where we

01:43:04.900 - 01:43:46.900

are without Jacqueline Cochran. Kelly: What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? I think it stands out showing that women really can do what they want to do. They are equally capable of doing what men do, except on some physical jobs.

01:43:47.760 - 01:44:06.760

I don't like to see women in combat. I think a woman's main thing is to be a mother and a homemaker. And that brings me to the next question. Of all the things you have done, what is the one thing that you are most proud of?

01:44:06.860 - 01:44:32.740

Roslyn: My son. And then if we could take it another step and I could ask you, beside Andy, what are you most proud of? I guess, well, my bands and orchestras.

01:44:33.420 - 01:44:38.800

I wanted to show you those pictures. I can't move now. Kelly: We'll get them. We'll get those.

01:44:40.460 - 01:45:04.240

Teaching children? Yes, yes. And I'm still in contact with some of my old students, rather constant contact. Kelly: When children are watching this fifty years from now, what would you like to say

01:45:04.240 - 01:45:24.660

to them or even to your granddaughter? What would you like to say to her and to other children that might inspire them to do things that they never have dreamed of doing and to succeed? What word of encouragement could you give to them?

01:45:26.820 - 01:45:53.200

Well, I don't know that words do it. Like I say, I have one student who has stuck with me from beginning to end. She lives out in California and has two daughters. I'm sure she learned from me that in spite of the fact that she's a woman and a Mexican,

01:45:53.680 - 01:46:16.340

could do anything, and she aspired to being a good violinist. Does that answer your question? Kelly: That answers my question. Looking back at the things that I have asked you, is there anything that I have left out

01:46:16.920 - 01:46:31.840

or anything that you would like to say, because this is your life. I don't know. I'll think of it later. While you're thinking about it, Lois, you mentioned Jessie Beck.

01:46:32.880 - 01:46:44.560

And you said she gave you everything you needed as a first grade student, everything you needed from then on. Can you kind of sum up what she gave you, or put your finger on exactly what it is?

01:46:48.160 - 01:47:10.580

I told you there was low first and high first, and she was my low first teacher, my beginning teacher. I had whooping cough and missed about six weeks of school. So I'll thank my lucky stars that she held me back, made me repeat that semester, and

01:47:10.580 - 01:47:28.000

that gave me solid basic training. Can I ask you, this is kind of off the wall here, I know, but what's your favorite word? Gosh, I don't know. Just pick one.

01:47:28.170 - 01:47:43.820

I haven't thought about it. I just don't get one. That's okay, you don't have to. You don't have to have one favorite. That's okay. Let me see if I've got anything else here.

01:47:50.260 - 01:48:04.660

We always think of lots of questions after we land. In the car. When you're on a searchlight mission, what's it like when they find you? What does it do to your—I mean, you're flying along and it's nighttime.

01:48:05.720 - 01:48:23.220

What happens when the light hits you? When the lights are on you, you can't see a horizon. So that's when you've got to depend on your instruments in the cockpit. And of course, we had the artificial horizon and all the rest of it.

01:48:23.980 - 01:48:39.820

You never got blinded by this really bright light? I did. There was one time when I told my co-pilot to take over because I was feeling—what What do we call it?

01:48:41.900 - 01:48:52.400

Vertigo. That's the word, yeah. Kelly: Wow. I'm sure we'll think of something else.

01:48:52.680 - 01:49:05.500

I was going to ask— Kelly: Anybody in the family fly in the military? I think those two. Does anybody—

01:49:05.500 - 01:49:28.900

He didn't do a lot of flying, but he did get the training. Kelly: Having sat through this for the last three hours, let me ask you, what do you think of this particular Wings Across America project? Smith: Well, I'm just getting acquainted with it, and I'm wondering how much Baylor

01:49:29.400 - 01:49:40.220

helps you, or what is Baylor going to do with this? When we turn the camera off, then we'll— Kelly: Yeah, we can tell you. Rose: Yeah, because I'm gay.

01:49:40.240 - 01:49:55.020

Kelly: Okay. I was trying to think of anything else. Did you teach anybody in your family how to fly? Rose: My son, Andy, he had a lot of flying, but he didn't get his license.

01:49:56.080 - 01:50:16.740

I taught him up until solo time, and then I turned him over to somebody else. I didn't want to solo him and be responsible. So I turned him over to another instructor and he went on, got his cross country and most everything finished.

01:50:17.760 - 01:50:37.660

Then this other instructor gave him spins and I cured him. He wouldn't go back again. So, you've never actually flown with him since you turned him over? Roslyn: Yeah, I turned him over to somebody else.

01:50:38.330 - 01:50:45.760

Kelly: Oh, that's funny. Okay, that's a wrap. Thank you so much. Roslyn: Well, okay.

01:50:45.930 - 01:50:55.680

Kelly: Are we through? You have been absolutely delightful. Roslyn: Well, thank you. You're very kind.

01:50:55.690 - 01:51:00.540

Kelly: Thank you. I can make a film out of your story. I have a boring voice. No you don't.