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>> Okay. >> And then I may ask you questions when you're telling us things. >> Okay. >> I'll try not to interrupt you, but if I think of something that I think might be helpful,

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then I may ask you that. >> Yeah. All right. >> But we will just start from the beginning and we'll just see how it goes.

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>> Okay. (beeping) But don't feel intimidated and don't even think about mine knowing anything about what you did

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for that one little span of time. - Okay. - Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish and we're in the home

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of Lillian Goodman in Memphis, Tennessee. She was a WASP class of '43, five. Today is August 11th, 2000. Okay, Lillian.

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- Well, I was born, Lillian-- - Tell us who you are. - Epsburg in New York City. And I don't remember, of course, my early years.

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- Okay, tell us when you were born. - I was born February 21st, 1922. I just missed one day by having a wonderful date, all twos.

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I don't remember anything about my mother and very little about my early days, but the only memory I have of my mother is being held up to look at her in her coffin. She died when I was, I think, four years old and my younger sister three and my older was ten.

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And my father was a seaman and he couldn't keep a home for us because he was away for long periods of time. So he put us under the care of the Siemens Institute in New York City. And of course he paid for having us put in foster homes.

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I have an older sister who was sent to a home somewhere in New England, and my younger sister and I were very fortunate because we were put in the home of a Swedish family who lived up in Pelham Bay, which is the last stop on the elevated in the Bronx in New York City, right on Long Island Sound.

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And it was a beautiful place to live, wonderful place to grow up. And they loved us and they were very kind to us. But then, could I ask you how it made you feel when your sister was sent away? I don't remember.

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I just was too young. And I think there was a period before the foster homes were found where we were in an orphanage for a while. Because I remember somebody told me my tonsils and adenoids were taken out at that time.

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And that was typically done of children at that period. But that was before I lived with the Johnsons. And we called the mother Johnson and Daddy Johnson, and they had a duplex and their son Harold and his wife lived upstairs.

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And we had a wonderful childhood because they treated us like their own children. Mother Johnson enjoyed dressing us like twins because we were only a year apart. And we went to grammar school there and unfortunately they became so fond of us that they asked if they could adopt us.

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And then the Siemens Institute realized that we had stayed there too long and become too attached. And naturally our father didn't want to give us up. So they moved us away, and this was a highly traumatic experience when you're just thirteen

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years old and you've lived with one family all your life. And they moved us as far away as they could in New York, and that was to Staten Island. Could I ask you how often your dad visited when you were growing up? Probably, I would say at most twice a year.

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And what would you do when he would come to visit? Well he would come to visit us at the Johnsons and bring us presents. And I have happy memories of those visits because he brought his mandolin and would play for us.

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And he would do that Russian dance where you kick your legs out, you know. So I have fond memories, but we never really got to know him. He was more like an uncle than a father. What nationality was he?

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He was born in Estonia, which at the time he was born there was part of Russia. And he left there because of the conscription of the Tsar, was conscripting all young men into the forces, and he ran away and went to sea. And he spent his entire life at sea, educating himself.

00:05:06.620 - 00:05:28.840

He came to this country, became a citizen, and he learned how to pilot those big ships into a lot of harbors and saved his company a lot of money, because usually they have to hire somebody to bring the ship in. So he was very intelligent and very ambitious to make something of himself.

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And you know, it was just sad that we could never have had a home together, because he wanted the best for us. So after we were there, I think we were in some kind of wimped home for children for a while.

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Then they found another foster parent for us where they had two daughters our age. And the father of the family was a baker. And it was an entirely different kind of life for us. And we went to high school there.

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Then when I graduated, my father very much wanted me to go to college. But I was rebellious. I knew I would be under the rule of the Siemens Institute for another four years, and I just want to do it.

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So I went into the city and got a job, and I rented a room in a friend's house, and I was totally independent at the age of eighteen, and I was earning sixty dollars a month and living on it perfectly. And that's when I first got interested in flying, because my boyfriend was taking flying

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lessons. Kelly: Okay. Could we go back? Let's go back to your school days.

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What were your dreams as a child? Steele: I always had thought I was going to be a nurse. I wanted to be a nurse, and that was my ambition. But as I say, when I was going to be independent, I had to take any kind of job I could get.

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Kelly: And what did you enjoy studying in school? I was a very good student, but I loved to read more than anything else. And no matter, I was always reading anytime there were books around any place. I remember when I was 16, I was sent to work for the summer in somebody's home

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to do the housework and take care of their child, sort of like the young girls they import from Europe now, you know, stay in the house and nurse and so forth. And they had a whole library of books that obviously were much too old for me, but I

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read every one of them. I just loved to read. Can you remember any special teacher? No, I cannot.

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But I really enjoyed school. I liked school work and I liked to get A's and I liked to study. Who were your role models when you were growing up? I do not know that I particularly had any role models specifically.

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During your high school, were you involved in outside activities other than academics? Yes, I was into everything. I was in a lot of clubs and sports. Well I think, I wish I had looked this up for you.

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I think I worked on the school newspaper. I know I played volleyball. I know I liked to act, because we put on a production of Aida, and I was in that. And I liked to sing, although I couldn't be a soloist.

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I could carry a tune and sing in the chorus. Do you remember any social activities that you attended? No. You know, we didn't, young men that age didn't have their own cars.

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I mean, there was no such thing as dating as girls know it now. Maybe you'd go to the movies with somebody. And Staten Island was like a small town. It was a very nice place to live.

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And I do remember that we would go sled riding and we'd catch onto cars. I mean, it was so much like a little town. It wasn't like being in New York City at all. And there was a golf course near the reservoir, and I started to learn golf there, and I liked

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that very much. And my father wanted us to learn how to go horseback riding, so he sent funds for us to do that, my sister and I. So we had, you know, a very normal, I think, time there.

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Kelly: While you were in junior high and high school and your older sister was someplace else, how often did you get to see her? almost never got to see her because she was in New Hampshire and we were in Staten Island. And even when we were in the Bronx, she would write to us much more than we would to her.

00:10:17.340 - 00:10:37.480

She was the one who was separated. So we didn't see each other often. And I had a grandmother who lived on Long Island in a retirement home, and my sister and I would go to see her once or twice a year, but it was a long, long ride by subway and ferry boat and buses and all that.

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But those were the contacts I had, my grandmother and my sister and my father. Kelly: Can you remember one special Christmas, and what was it like? Steele: No, I can't. But I can remember funny things in Mother Johnson's house.

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They were Swedish and they would celebrate Christmas on Christmas Eve and have smorgasbord. And she was a wonderful baker and she would make these wonderful things with cardamom seed and the house always smelled so good. And she had some strange things around the house.

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One thing was a coconut. I do not know who brought it to her or what, but my job was to dust the living room. I always liked all these strange—oh, and she had a—oh, what do you call it? Where you look at a film and it has two pictures and it merges into one, you know, push it

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out like this. I do not know if you remember what they were called. But they were pictures of Sweden, and I loved to look through that. Once you moved from the Johnsons' home and went to live with someone else, did you keep

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in contact with that first family? Yes, we always did. We always felt like they were our real mother and father. We had such an attachment.

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But it was many, many years before I was able to go to see them. Okay, now we'll go back and you have a job. Right. And that's when I started going to the airport with my boyfriend, and he was taking lessons.

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And that's where I found out that the Civil Air Patrol was offering this course in ground school for six weeks at night. It was in the summertime, and I think it was every night for six weeks. And they gave ten flight scholarships at the end of the course, nine to boys and one to

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a girl. And that entitled you to thirty-five hours flying time, which was enough to get your private license. Do you remember what year this was?

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Well it had to be about '41 or '42. And so I was lucky enough to win that. So I started and did my flying and got my private license. Do you remember where you were and how you felt when you heard about Pearl Harbor?

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Absolutely. I don't think anybody who was alive then ever forgot that. I was living with another family. Oh yeah, I forget when I was moved to them.

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But I was living with another family and it was Sunday and we had just had dinner and we were all looking at the papers and sitting around and there was a program on the radio

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and there was an interruption and said, we'd been attacked by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor. And the first question everybody said was, "Where's Pearl Harbor?" You know, nobody had ever heard of it.

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So it was a real terrific shock. How did America's getting into that war affect your life? Well, it just seemed so natural to want to be part of the war effort. And everybody rushed, especially the young men, rushed to go and sign up.

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I know my husband told me later, he went the next day, which was Monday, to sign up. And we all just felt so patriotic. But I didn't think I would have a place in it. And there were no women's wings of the Army then.

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I don't think the women or the WAVES or any of that had been started. Do you remember? I don't think so. So unless you wanted to be a nurse, which I wasn't and wasn't trained for.

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So I never dreamt I was going to take part in this war until I heard about the WASP. Do you remember when you heard about the WASP? Well, I can't put the date on it, but I know I received a letter from Jacqueline Cochran. Of course, I had heard of her and knew she was a famous pilot and so forth, inviting

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me to join this organization. The requirements were that you have a private license and seventy-five hours flying time. Now I didn't have that much time because my thing entitled me only to thirty-five hours, and I had been getting extra time using my money from my job.

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And so I wrote to my father and told him I really wanted to do this, and could he send me the money to get the time. And he did. But by that time, they had closed down all the flying on the East Coast and the West

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Coast as well. So there wasn't any place to fly on Staten Island. So I found out about an airport in eastern Pennsylvania. I tried, it was the nearest one to me, that was still open.

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And so I left my job and moved out there and flew every day to build up that time. And it was there that I met a girl who was to become a lifelong friend. And she was very, very beautiful. She was a model.

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And she had been the model for Milton Kniff for the Dragon Lady in Terry and the Pirates. And she wanted to be in this, and she had a private license, because her husband was already in the Army by this time, and he was in Africa. So we roomed together in Easton, and we got our time together.

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And we were both signed up for the same class in Sweetwater. But we did not have any money left to get down there. So we read an ad in the paper for somebody who wanted a car driven from New York to Dallas. And so we answered that ad and we went back to New York and picked up that car and off

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we went and drove to Dallas. They paid your travel expenses. Let me ask you about your sister that you were living with. At the time you started flying, were you still living in a foster home?

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No, no. When I started flying, I was already out of high school. I was working, and I was living with this family, not the one that I—just another family.

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I had left the foster home, and she stayed there with them one more year because she was younger, and then she decided to go to college. So she was not interested in getting into any war effort. We both lived on Staten Island and saw each other, but we did not live together after

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I got out of high school. Did you stay in close touch with this family after you left? Yes, I did. And in fact, they came to my wedding when I came back after the war and got married.

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families that I lived with, they all came to my wedding. And Mother Johnson, Daddy Johnson was dead by then, but her son, Harold Johnson, gave me away at my wedding. So they were always family to me.

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Tell me about your trip now to California. Could you get gas? Oh, I didn't go to California. Okay, to the sleep water, I'm sorry.

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Yeah, we could get gas. But we drove the car to Dallas, and from Dallas we took the train to Sweetwater. What were your expectations? I had no idea.

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I had never been around an Army base, but I was able to accommodate myself and to fit in because I had been moved around so much in my life, and it was nothing for me to share room with six other women because we'd been in foster homes and we'd been in orphanages. So it just didn't upset me at all, although I know a lot of the girls were very unhappy

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at the conditions, how primitive they were. How did your dad feel about your flying? He was so proud of me, and he was so disappointed with me when I wouldn't go to college. He was very, very proud of me flying, very pleased.

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Kelly: When you were interviewed, do you remember who interviewed you for training? Steele: No. I do not remember having a personal interview. Kelly: Do you remember the physical?

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Steele: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Kelly: Where did you take that? Steele: I think it was in New York City.

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Kelly: Once you got to Sweetwater with your friend, were there already other girls in training when you arrived? Steele: Yes, because we were the fifth class, so they already had two or three. I forgot what class first moved to Sweetwater, but they were already established there.

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Kelly: Tell me about your first impressions of Avenger Field. Well, I just thought it was the loneliest place I'd ever seen in my life. You know, I was a city girl. I felt like I was out in the middle of the desert somewhere, which we were.

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And I didn't have a car, none of us had cars, and we seldom got off the base because I didn't have friends who had cars that would take them into—what's that little town near Sweetwater? [Peggy Springs?]

00:21:42.400 - 00:22:00.640

No, no, no, there's one closer. It'll come to me. But so I really—the whole six months, I rarely left that base. And of course we didn't have uniforms, and we wore those zoot suits all the time, and

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the calisthenics. But I enjoyed it, I really enjoyed it. Of course, we were all terrified of the Army checks when they were due. And my friend washed out, which was a real big disappointment to both of us.

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How did that make you feel? I felt terrible. I didn't think—I didn't even expect anybody to wash out. You know, we all felt once we'd gotten our license, we were all going to go right through.

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So it was really hard when people got washed out. Do you know why she washed out? Well, she was very emotional, and I think she—they didn't feel like she was dependable. But the worst thing was when two women in my class were killed flying with an instructor

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in the twin engine. And nobody knew why that happened, so that was pretty shocking. What happened with their bodies? Well, it's a typical story that there were no accommodations for us because we were civilian

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employees attached to the Army. So we just took up collections to help send their bodies home to their families. Kelly: Do you remember any incidents in flying that were outstanding or different while you were there?

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Anything extraordinary happen to you? Steele: Well, one time I dragged a wing, and I thought I was going to be washed out for that. But I picked it up and landed okay.

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So that was the scariest thing, thinking I was going to be washed out for that. I do not know how that happened. What do you think you were training for? To replace the men.

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We never thought we were going into combat, but we were always told that we were going to be officers and we were going to be attached to the Air Force. But we were on officer rating, that we were going to be second lieutenants. That was our expectations always.

00:24:23.740 - 00:24:46.860

Kelly: Describe a typical day at Sweetwater Adventure. Klemski: Well, getting up, everything was timed. With seven women in the bay, to let everybody have the use of the bathroom either morning or night was always a big rush, and go to the mess hall and eat.

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And then usually we had calisthenics and then classroom training and then flight training. The flight was the high point of the day always. And we had fun, and we would sing songs as we marched. And well, it was like being at camp.

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I was happy. I didn't know people were having problems, and everything was wonderful to me. Can you tell me about any of your instructors and how they treated you? Oh, some of them were nice and some of them, you just felt like they didn't feel that

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women belonged there. And especially some of the Army officers who were going to check you out on your Army checks. It was pretty scary every time you went up for an Army check. You hoped you were going to get through.

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I don't personally remember any insults or anything like that. My cup is always half full, so I'm not noticing if there's been a slight. I'm not looking for it, you know what I mean. I've heard other people say they had this bad time and that bad time, and I'm sorry

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they did, but I didn't. What was your favorite thing to do in flying? What did you enjoy the most? Flying alone, especially cross country.

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Can you describe one of the cross country flights that you took? No, they were all very similar. Tell me about flying, taking instrument training. Well, you know, we had the link trainers.

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And for those who don't know, what is a link trainer? It's a machine that sits on the ground, and you go in and it's dark, and it simulates a cockpit, and the instruments are lit up, and you have no way of knowing whether you're flying level or diving or climbing.

00:27:01.180 - 00:27:19.620

You have to strictly go by the instruments the way they are. I tell you what was really scary was the first time we went up for night flying, when you don't have that horizon anymore, and you have to really trust your instruments. It's pretty scary.

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Kelly: During the time you were at Avenger, what was your social life like? Did you get any time off? Steele: You know, I don't remember. I just remember we did silly things like hosing us all down, it was so hot, or somebody buying

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a watermelon and we're eating it out. They might have had movies sometimes, but I just don't remember anything. I think one time somebody invited a bunch of us to a cabin they had rented on a lake, And that was probably the high point of the whole thing, to get into some water and swim.

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Kelly: While you were in training, did you keep in contact with your sister, both sisters, your dad? Steele: Yes, yes. I wrote, I don't guess all that frequently, but yes, we kept in touch.

00:28:16.500 - 00:28:39.500

Mail meant a lot to you in places like that. What was your biggest adjustment you had to make in training? Well I think it's probably not ever having any privacy at all. You know, it's such a crowded, small thing.

00:28:40.040 - 00:29:04.120

And you never could go off and be by yourself. While you were in training, did there come a time when you had received new uniforms? No, I don't remember that, but I know I was the--I had very good posture, so I was the flag bearer for our unit.

00:29:04.760 - 00:29:26.680

And I remember we didn't have uniforms. We wore, for dress occasions, we wore white shirts and khaki pants. And that's what we graduated in, and that's what we paraded in. So I don't think the blue uniforms, I can't remember when we first got those, but I don't

00:29:26.740 - 00:29:36.240

think it was during our training. Kelly: While you were at Avenger, did Jacqueline Cochran visit the Berlin? Steele: Yes, yes. Kelly: Do you remember any of those?

00:29:36.400 - 00:29:57.700

Well, I remember she came down, and I think half Arnold came down for a graduation. So we all were very impressed. While you were still in training, were you informed what the girls who had already graduated, what they were doing, and what do you remember about what they were doing?

00:29:58.900 - 00:30:14.520

No, I really, I don't remember that at all. I mean, we just knew they went off and did something. But I think we thought they were all going in the ferry command. I think I was surprised when I found out that some of them were in the training command.

00:30:16.440 - 00:30:33.120

Before you graduated, were you given a choice of the base to which you would be assigned? I do not remember. Tell me about your graduation. Well, I know we got invitations we could send home.

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They printed up invitations for us. And you know, you just really feel like pretty hot stuff when you graduate. How long was your training? Six months.

00:30:49.360 - 00:31:11.940

Okay, tell us about the airplanes, different airplanes that you flew. Well, we started with the FATAL PT-19 primary trainer, and it was pretty much like what But most of us had been flying Piper Cubs. And then the next step up was the basic trainer, and that was a big, big change, because I

00:31:12.020 - 00:31:28.880

think you could change the—oh, they did the propeller pitch and—oh, and it had—did it—landing gear, did the landing gear go—I can't remember. No, no, the next step was that. But it was bigger and it was noisier, and it felt more like a real plane.

00:31:29.800 - 00:31:49.200

And then the AT-6, that was wonderful because that had more instruments and retractable landing gear. But we still—none of us had radios, so you still flew—you had to go by the tower and see whether you got a red or green light to land.

00:31:50.200 - 00:31:58.660

So it was still pretty primitive. Kelly: Okay. And while you were in training also, did you fly twin-engine and describe that? Steele: Oh, yes.

00:31:59.180 - 00:32:14.580

We flew twin engine. We didn't have a whole lot of time on that. I think we always had an instructor with that. I don't remember just two girls going up in that at all.

00:32:16.440 - 00:32:30.000

It was not lengthy. Kelly: Two girls that were killed? Morgan: Yeah, that's plane they were in with an instructor, the ones in my class. Kelly: Did you ever find out what happened?

00:32:30.030 - 00:32:40.880

Steele: No, they never found out what happened. Kelly: Did you know either of them personally, or were they in another form? Steele: They were in another bay. I didn't know them intimately.

00:32:43.000 - 00:32:59.420

So much with your own group all the time. Kelly: Do you remember when you found out that it had crashed? How did you find out? It's just one of those things that just swept through the bass as soon as, you know,

00:32:59.800 - 00:33:08.600

just word of mouth. Now, I've got an answering machine. [Laughter.] Well, you just said it was a play.

00:33:09.200 - 00:33:15.180

And I thought it was a production.] Well, I think I said production, but it is an opera, right. [Yes, it is. What part did you play?]

00:33:15.180 - 00:33:19.100

No part. I was chorus. [You were in chorus? That's good.]

00:33:22.670 - 00:33:31.500

Uh-huh. In the bridge world, when we'd have a big tournament, we would put on skits, you know, and cannibalize other people's songs

00:33:31.640 - 00:33:39.360

and change the lyrics to make it all about bridge. So I've got some tapes of those. They're really corny, but they're fun. (laughing)

00:33:40.420 - 00:33:48.400

- Are they suitable for children? - Yeah, oh yeah, they're clean. You just have to be a bridge player to think they're funny. (laughing)

00:33:49.840 - 00:34:22.640

- You can ask her, I'm gonna just drop I don't remember whether I requested or whether I just took what was assigned to me. But what was a little hard, I don't think there was anybody from my bay that went to the same base that I did.

00:34:22.860 - 00:34:40.320

So that was kind of a little disappointing. But another girl who was in my class was stationed there, and she was a very interesting person. Her name was Monica Flaherty, and her father, Robert Flaherty, was the father of documentary movies.

00:34:40.960 - 00:35:04.260

He was the man who made Nanook of the North, and I know Nancy knows about these people. And so she had spent her life traveling all over the world, and he made a movie in Samoa. So she was stationed at Newcastle with me. She was the only one, I think, that I knew going up there.

00:35:04.750 - 00:35:18.320

Kelly: While you were at Sweetwater, were you kept informed about what was going on as far as the war effort? Steele: No, really, no. We were totally out of it.

00:35:18.320 - 00:35:30.460

It was like being in another planet. I mean, there wasn't any television. Nobody had radios, and we didn't have time. And we didn't read the newspapers.

00:35:31.000 - 00:35:41.380

Kelly: Right. Do you know if that was a deliberate, or do you feel it was a deliberate effort on the part of the military to keep— Steele: I don't think so.

00:35:42.060 - 00:35:52.600

I think they had such a heavy schedule. We were so busy. I'm sure if you wanted to, you could buy a newspaper or found out. I don't think it was any scheme.

00:35:54.020 - 00:36:19.580

Do you think, well let me back up. When you left, when you graduated, what was your graduation ceremony like? Oh, they had a parade and some general, I forget, it's in my scrapbook, would pin your wings on you, and you would shake hands with all the officers.

00:36:19.820 - 00:36:31.260

And it was very nice, it was a very nice real graduation ceremony. Kelly: So when you left there, how did you get to Newcastle? Steele: You know, I do not remember. I really do not remember.

00:36:31.260 - 00:36:39.000

Kelly: Did you have some time off? Do you remember having time off? Steele: No, I do not remember. Kelly: Well, let us go forward.

00:36:39.160 - 00:36:57.600

When you arrived at Newcastle, what happened? Well, I know it was pretty, it was quite different because it was a long-standing Army Air Force base and it was, you know, it's not playtime anymore. This is really business.

00:36:59.080 - 00:37:17.520

And we had to find our way around. And I guess we all felt pretty scared the first time we had to take off. Kelly: Where did you live? Steele: We lived in the BOQ, right on the base.

00:37:17.550 - 00:37:32.780

Kelly: Were there other women in the BOQ? Steele: Oh, yeah. And see, a lot of the women already flying out of there were from Nancy Love's group of WAFs, and they did not socialize with us at all.

00:37:35.840 - 00:37:49.060

So but there are other classes before me. Some people had gone up there. So we were not the first ones. But it just was so much more businesslike.

00:37:49.320 - 00:37:57.400

You know, playtime was over. This was for real. Do you remember who gave you your orders then? Who were you under?

00:37:58.520 - 00:38:06.800

Who I forget. Whoever was the commander of that base. But was there a WAF in charge of-- I don't remember.

00:38:07.600 - 00:38:18.060

But I mean, I don't think we had any more of this calisthenics or training or this or that. It was grown up. It was business.

00:38:19.880 - 00:38:41.820

And I think Hagerstown was not far from there, and I think we were driven to Hagerstown to pick up these planes. But I know we were able to—coming back from places, we were able to bump almost everybody but the White House to get back to base quickly.

00:38:42.440 - 00:38:51.980

It was very high priority for us to get going and be back as fast as we could get. Kelly: Do you remember your first mission trip? Steele: Nope. Kelly: Okay.

00:38:52.290 - 00:39:07.180

Steele: I do not. Kelly: What were you— went in flights, and we would take turns leading the flights. Were you all WASPs, or what was the step of flight?

00:39:07.620 - 00:39:30.160

Yeah, I don't think--it would depend on how many planes were going to be moved. If it was one, one girl would go by herself, two, three, or four. It was whatever they had ready for us to move out. Now it's entirely possible an experience—I would think an experience WASP or WAF would

00:39:30.260 - 00:39:42.060

go with us when we were new, but I just don't remember it. Kelly: Okay. And these planes, was this an aircraft factory where you were— Steele: Yes, yes.

00:39:42.060 - 00:40:00.180

That's where they made the Fairchild PT-19s. Kelly: And then you would ferry these airplanes— Steele: To their base, wherever they were needed. At any time did you take these farther than a base?

00:40:03.440 - 00:40:25.500

Well at one time we flew some planes all the way to Florida. They were going to Cuba, but they would not let us fly across the water, so we had to start and change over. Do you remember how long it took you to get from Maryland to Miami?

00:40:25.770 - 00:40:44.420

Steele No, because we flew only in good weather. Since they had no lights, radios, and very limited instruments, we did absolutely nothing but contact flying. So we spent a lot of time in small towns, in bowling alleys, which there were not that

00:40:44.480 - 00:40:55.540

many of them at that time. The slightest bad weather, we were not allowed to fly. Do you remember how you were treated by civilians? Did they know who you were?

00:40:55.960 - 00:41:08.700

No, absolutely not. Even after we'd gotten our uniforms, they had never heard of the WASP, never. They didn't know who we were. Okay.

00:41:09.440 - 00:41:15.700

She's got to change the film. Okay. We'd be there for about seven years. He would take a three-week vacation.

00:41:16.580 - 00:41:27.940

So we saw all of the U.S. and Canada. And then he said, "I'm through. If you want to go to Europe, go with someone else." So a friend of mine was a travel agent, and she said, "Well, why don't you fly with

00:41:28.000 - 00:41:43.620

me on my vacation, and I'll be checking out new places, and you can keep me company." So I went to some fabulous places with her. That was fun. Okay, let's go back, and you've delivered these airplanes down to Miami.

00:41:43.740 - 00:41:58.840

How many of you were on that trip? I think probably around five or six. And sometimes we—one time we took a group of planes to Canada, and we could cross into Canada, that was not any problem.

00:42:00.280 - 00:42:14.020

And where did you deliver those? I think it was Calgary. And do you know what the Canadians were going to do with them? Probably going to use them for trainers for their own pilots, because they were primary

00:42:14.020 - 00:42:37.860

trainers. What was the most exciting thing that happened to you at Newcastle? Well, it was while I was stationed there that I got lost on a flight. We were taking some planes to Minneapolis, and we spent the night at Milwaukee, and there

00:42:37.700 - 00:42:58.300

There were six of us, and that next leg I was leading the group. And I don't know if you know, with no radio to follow a beam, how you get from here to there. You draw a line in the map, and then you call the weather to see what it's going to be

00:42:58.400 - 00:43:14.560

at whatever altitude you plan to fly, and you allow for the drift. And of course, I was following the Mississippi River. But unfortunately, it had a lot of tributaries. The closer I got to Minneapolis, the more it branched off.

00:43:15.420 - 00:43:34.160

And before I knew it, I was totally lost. And four of the girls behind me knew I was lost, and they went on to the Wright Airport. We could not communicate with each other. They couldn't tell me I was lost and they couldn't catch up with me because I was flying

00:43:34.280 - 00:43:47.840

ahead and there was one girl that stayed with me. So things were getting serious. We were getting low on fuel. It was getting dark and I thought, "We have to land someplace."

00:43:47.840 - 00:44:08.860

So I picked out this farm and then I buzzed it to make sure there weren't any rocks or any creeks cutting across it. And so then I went around and came in and landed just fine. And this other girl, Marianne Beard, from the famous family of historians, were her

00:44:09.300 - 00:44:20.620

families. She followed me right in. She didn't know where she was either. But the funniest thing was, when we got out and the farmer and his wife came rushing over,

00:44:21.440 - 00:44:36.900

they were just stunned to see girls flying these planes. They had never heard of WASP and never heard of girl pilots. And we had always been told, "Now, if you have to land someplace, don't say anything but your name and number."

00:44:39.160 - 00:45:04.660

And here our names and numbers were stenciled all over our flight bags and our parachutes. And so I had to call the airport and tell them where we were and that we had gotten down safely and had to wait until they came out and got us. So they took us into the airport and then we had to wait the next day while they took

00:45:04.760 - 00:45:21.060

some men out to fly it out, which made me very angry because it was a lot easier flying out than flying in, but they wouldn't let us do it. So they flew it out and brought it back over. And then, of course, I had to fill out all these forms for the Army, why I got lost.

00:45:23.000 - 00:45:34.440

But they did not hold it against me. They let me keep on flying. But that was exciting. Did you ever have a near accident while you were at Newcastle?

00:45:34.760 - 00:45:44.160

No. No. So there came a time when you got orders to go to another base. Tell us about that and how it made you feel.

00:45:44.880 - 00:46:00.280

Well, we were transferred to Dallas, to Love Field. Well, I was ready. It was fine with me because we were going to fly a much nicer airplane, and that's where North American Plant was.

00:46:00.760 - 00:46:14.760

And we were going to fly the AT-6s, which were the advanced trainers that we had flown in training, and we were very familiar with them. And it was fun to be in a new city. And of course, Love Field was right near Dallas.

00:46:14.880 - 00:46:23.940

We were not out in the sticks like we were at Sweetwater. So I enjoyed my stay there. That was fun. Kelly: How many of you were transferred?

00:46:24.260 - 00:46:31.080

Steele: I have no idea. Kelly: Do you know how you were selected? Steele: No. I do not know how or why.

00:46:31.440 - 00:46:54.300

Kelly: When you got to Love Field and there were already WASPs there, where did you live? I think we still lived in BOQ. And what was your primary duty? Still Ferry Command, to deliver these AT-6s from the factory to different flying school

00:46:54.880 - 00:47:14.320

bases around. I think in Texas, because there were so many training bases in Texas and Mississippi and in the South. And when you would deliver an airplane to a base, what would then happen?

00:47:14.720 - 00:47:37.500

Well then we were to get back as quickly as we could. And if there was a commercial airport, we would go and get a seat. And as I say, we could bump ordinary civilians off and get a ride back. If there was an Army plane going back, of course, we were to take that.

00:47:38.300 - 00:47:48.160

Do you recall having to haul that parachute with you? Oh, yeah, I think, oh, we did. We did. We had to take that with us.

00:47:48.360 - 00:48:01.300

That was our responsibility. And what was your luggage like on these trips? Well, you didn't have—some planes, you didn't have much room to take much. You had a little rucksack type thing.

00:48:03.180 - 00:48:24.220

I know one time I really got in trouble. It was while I was at Newcastle. I was sent out to, I think, Indiana to pick up a Piper Cub, and I was sent by myself a Piper Cub and fly it back east.

00:48:24.480 - 00:48:42.400

And it was in the winter. And I didn't have any winter flying gear with me. And I didn't realize it was that cold. And I got so cold, my hands, and you know, it was open, and the wind was rushing by,

00:48:42.980 - 00:49:01.360

and I didn't have that fleece-lined gear that we wore when we flew open planes. And I didn't, I thought, "I'm going to just drop here." So I made an emergency landing at a naval base in Columbus, oh, I'd forgotten about this, in Columbus, Ohio.

00:49:03.420 - 00:49:21.920

And they had to lift me out of the plane. I could not even move my feet. So they thawed me out and they outfitted me with the winter flight gear, you know, with the boots and the pants and the jacket and sent me on my way.

00:49:22.900 - 00:49:38.340

And they said, "Do not worry about it. They will send it back to us." So I did not have to worry about sending that back to the Navy. But I mean, they were really surprised at a Navy base to see a girl come in there flying,

00:49:39.020 - 00:49:51.740

especially a frozen one. [Laughter.] Kelly: How long were you at Love Field then? Steele: I think I was just there a few months, because I went from there to Orlando Air Force

00:49:51.830 - 00:50:09.260

Base for the officers' training. And of course, that was paradise, because it was beach and sun and palm trees. It was a gorgeous base. They even had a big dance floor out there.

00:50:09.530 - 00:50:28.200

You could dance at night. And tell us about that particular training. Well, that's where I met my husband, because he was in the chemical warfare. And we had some classes about how to use gas masks.

00:50:29.200 - 00:50:42.260

And we were sent into this room with a gas mask hanging over our shoulder, and we were told they were going to release some tear gas, and we had to see how fast we could get that mask on. And of course, we were all so clumsy, we could hardly do it.

00:50:42.720 - 00:50:55.060

And we came out just streaming tears. And that's the first way my husband saw me. And I don't know why he took to me, but he did because he followed me all around the base from then on asking for a date.

00:50:55.160 - 00:51:18.960

And I always said, "I have one, I have one, I have one." Because we were very popular, and I think it was maybe a week and a half off before I had a free night, but he was very persistent. But we went to classes and learned basic things that were part of officer's training, not

00:51:18.960 - 00:51:33.780

related to flying, but what you were supposed to know and do and how to behave as an officer and so forth and so on. Who were in these classes? Well the classes I was in were all WASP.

00:51:34.280 - 00:51:48.300

They were not integrated with the men, they were all girls. And who was teaching? Well different officers, like my husband was teaching the chemical warfare class. So they had different—they were all officers teaching us there.

00:51:48.730 - 00:52:04.920

Kelly: How long were you there? Steele: I think it was a month. Kelly: By the end of the month, did you want to stay at Armando? Steele: Oh, well, you know, well, see, one thing was bad.

00:52:04.980 - 00:52:18.560

We did not fly while we were there. It was just all ground school. So we missed our flying. So I mean it was nice for a vacation, but we were all wanting to get back to flying.

00:52:19.760 - 00:52:41.640

And when you returned to Love Field? Well then I found out I had been transferred to Las Vegas. And a friend of mine's mother said she would come and get us and drive us there, because none of us, neither of us had ever been out west before.

00:52:41.840 - 00:52:53.920

So we went by way of Grand Canyon, and we had enough time to reach it by driving by car. So that was like a vacation. That was a lot of fun.

00:52:53.980 - 00:53:01.940

Kelly: Who was this friend? Steele: I forget her name. She had not been in my class. She was someone I met along the way.

00:53:01.940 - 00:53:14.280

Kelly: How many of you were transferred to Las Vegas? Steele: I don't have any of those numbers in my head. Do you know why you were chosen to be transferred? No, I really don't.

00:53:15.340 - 00:53:33.180

When you got, did you know what to expect when you got to the States? No, we didn't know what we were going to do. And then when we got there, we found out we were going to learn to co-pilot B-26s and tow targets for gunners in B-17s to practice shooting.

00:53:34.140 - 00:53:52.980

How did that make you feel? of excited. I mean, that was the biggest plane that I had been personally close to in all this time. And it had a very bad reputation.

00:53:53.030 - 00:54:06.160

It was called the Widowmaker, because it was really hot landing and hard to land. So it was really scary. It really was. Do you remember about your training in that airplane?

00:54:06.280 - 00:54:27.900

Well, we had both ground school and flight training. And of course we were never made first officers, we were always co-piloting. And how many girls were there training, do you remember? How were you treated there by the male pilots and instructors?

00:54:31.240 - 00:54:50.120

I do not know. I was not uncomfortable, but I know they probably were not too delighted to see us. First of all, it is a hard plane to fly, and I do not know that they were very comfortable with us.

00:54:50.260 - 00:55:07.840

But I never had anybody say anything to me like that. But it would be surprising if they did not feel that way. Do you remember any social times that you had there? Oh, well, we would go into Las Vegas at night to the—there were two casinos, and we had

00:55:07.900 - 00:55:20.500

never seen a casino in our lives before, so that was fun, to go into the casinos. Did you date other people while you were there? Yeah. Were you attached?

00:55:21.480 - 00:55:34.680

No, no. Ed was still courting me, but I'm sure I dated, because I was not ready to settle down. I was having too much fun. How often did you see Ed?

00:55:35.640 - 00:55:57.020

Well, maybe every few weeks. He was technical advisor on these chemical warfare films, so he could commandeer a plane to go weekend. So he came to Las Vegas to see me, he came to Riverside later there.

00:55:57.580 - 00:56:14.080

And I saw him maybe three times after we met in Orlando. Kelly: Walk us through a mission that you flew after you finished your training in the B-26. What would a mission consist of?

00:56:15.000 - 00:56:41.060

you would take off, and I think you had to fly a pattern so this B-17 would know where you were going to go. And then you would reel out this target, which was a long canvas, almost like the wind flag, you know, at an airport, only much, much longer.

00:56:42.120 - 00:57:02.640

And I think we just sort of flew in circles or a pattern for a certain length of time while they were shooting at it, and then we would reel it in and come down and land. But of course, they took us up and trained us before we ever had the live shooting going on for several hours.

00:57:03.440 - 00:57:23.800

I would have to look at my book to see how long we usually stayed up. Do you know why they were training these gunners? Steele: Well, I assume to go overseas. Because the B-17s were doing the big load of bombing over Europe.

00:57:25.190 - 00:57:39.020

Kelly: How long did you stay then at Las Vegas? Steele: I think it wasn't very long. I think maybe a month or six weeks. It wasn't terribly long.

00:57:39.180 - 00:57:55.580

Kelly: How did you feel about being transferred from one base to another base? Steele: I didn't mind it a bit. I'm happy to see the world and fly different planes. Everything was fun for me.

00:57:55.700 - 00:58:15.760

Kelly: Then where were your next orders? to Riverside, California. And there we flew a lot of more--some training where we flew that little--what was the initials of that little--

00:58:15.760 - 00:58:35.760

[PQ something?] Yeah, PQ, which is a single-engine, tiny little red ship. And we flew patterns for the boys who were learning how to use radar to follow, so they could follow our flight and learn how to use the radar.

00:58:36.680 - 00:59:01.640

And my friend that I had driven out west with, she and I were still together at this time, and we would fly side by side, and we had a distinct pattern to fly and a certain amount of time to stay up there. And I think, according to my logbook, we flew a lot of B-13s and they were local, so they

00:59:01.700 - 00:59:16.820

must have been testing them if they had repair work or something on them, because they were not delivered someplace else. Do you remember any unusual incidents that happened there? No, no, I do not remember that time.

00:59:17.130 - 00:59:29.320

There was not anything significant in my mind about that time there, except that that is heard that the WASPs were being disbanded. How did that make you feel? Oh, terrible.

00:59:29.420 - 00:59:44.740

We just couldn't believe it because we all expected to stay in for the duration of the war. It was a terrible blow and all this training and why were they throwing us out? It was very, very depressing.

00:59:47.140 - 01:00:10.580

Then we were just left to find our way back to wherever we lived. We could catch a ride with an Army plane, but there were no monies put out for car fare or per diem or anything like that. We just were on our own to get back wherever we wanted to go to.

01:00:10.820 - 01:00:31.140

During the time that you were at one of these bases, you were issued new uniforms. How did that happen? Well, I think that Jacqueline Cochran had these designed by someone, and they were very, very attractive.

01:00:31.330 - 01:00:45.460

They were very nice looking. Indiago blue, I think, was the color. And that was better to fly because we had flight, the Eisenhower jacket and the slacks

01:00:45.580 - 01:00:57.600

that were very comfortable to fly in, and then the dress uniforms. And then we felt like we really belonged more because we had our insignia and our FIFANELLAs and whatever.

01:00:57.820 - 01:01:12.960

And we all looked the same, And it made it look more real than flying in slacks and an Army jacket or a leftover Army jacket or something like that. They were very good looking.

01:01:13.730 - 01:01:33.700

At any of the bases where you were stationed, did Jacqueline Cochran visit? I never—never any that I was in. I never saw her except at Sweetwater. When you learned that you were going to be deactivated, what did you do to prepare for

01:01:33.760 - 01:01:45.240

life after the loss? Well, you could not. You just were not ready. You had not thought that it was going to end that quickly.

01:01:47.620 - 01:02:05.320

We truly were just stunned. Now some girls were able to go into teaching because they owned their own plane, you know, or they had connections where they could keep on flying.

01:02:05.800 - 01:02:21.200

And some of them went on and went into the service, but they weren't promised that they were going to be doing any flying in the service. And so we just broke up and went our own ways.

01:02:23.540 - 01:02:42.020

And I didn't even know there was an organization for many, many years because I had moved so much and I didn't receive any mail. And I didn't know there was an organization until I read in the paper that they were having a reunion at Hot Springs, Arkansas.

01:02:43.740 - 01:02:58.820

And so my son and I—this one that's living with me now was a little boy. I said, "Let's ride over and see what it's like." And that was the first time I knew they had an organization. And I was one of the lost waspies.

01:03:00.100 - 01:03:12.500

Kelly: When you were disbanded, did Marchfield give you a big parade or any kind of special— Steele: I don't think so. I would have remembered it. I know they didn't.

01:03:12.500 - 01:03:29.540

Kelly: How did you get from Marchfield to wherever you were going? Steele: I went back to New York City. Hitching rides, I do not remember how long it took. We had to drag our luggage along with us, but we never had a whole lot with us because

01:03:29.620 - 01:03:42.940

we were moved frequently. But that is the way I got back home. Kelly: You were hitchhiking what? Oh, by military plane, not car, no.

01:03:43.860 - 01:04:07.640

And once you got to New York, then were you able to revisit your foster parents? Yes, and in fact, that's when I moved back in with Mother Johnson. Instead of going to Staten Island, I decided maybe this was a good time to go to college. And so I signed up to go to Hunter College, which is in New York City.

01:04:08.640 - 01:04:25.340

So it made more sense to live with Mother Johnson, who was just a subway ride away, than to live on Staten Island, which took subway, ferry, and bus. It was about an hour and a half travel. And she was a widow by then, and she was happy to have me come back and stay with her.

01:04:26.420 - 01:04:45.300

But I just didn't fit in the college. I was two years older and ten years wiser, and it was like being in kindergarten. And the atmosphere was wrong for me, and I just didn't care for it. It was just the wrong time.

01:04:45.440 - 01:05:03.640

Kelly: Where was your sister or sisters by this time? Klemski: Well, my older sister had married and was living in New Hampshire. And my younger sister was still in college in Virginia, Martha Washington College. And she became a physical therapist.

01:05:03.960 - 01:05:26.580

That's what she majored in. And when you decided to quit college, then what did you do? I think I got, and I don't remember, it was a very short time. I went down to visit Ed, he was still stationed at Orlando, and he wanted to get married and

01:05:26.600 - 01:05:40.500

I was ready to get married. And so I think I just stayed at the Johnsons until we got married in June of that year. Tell me about your wedding. Oh, well, we were married in the Commodore Hotel in New York City.

01:05:42.070 - 01:05:57.720

And all my Staten Island friends and foster parents were all there. And Mother Johnson's son, I wasn't sure my father was going to be able to get there, so I had asked Harold to give me away. But my father did get there at the last minute.

01:05:58.560 - 01:06:14.420

And so then Ed and I honeymooned in New York City. And then we had to take a train to get back to Orlando because civilians—the war was still on and civilians could not get on an airplane very easily. So we had to take the train.

01:06:14.520 - 01:06:30.040

It took three days to get back to Florida. Who were all these passengers on the train? Do you remember? They were a lot of servicemen moving around and more than civilians.

01:06:31.100 - 01:06:50.360

pretty well stayed pat in the war. So they were like us, couples probably being changed from one place to another. And so Ed was in for six months more before the war ended and he was discharged. We came to Memphis.

01:06:50.600 - 01:07:02.580

It was his home. And I know, he said, "Well, I don't know what I'm going to do." I said, "Well, whatever you're going to do, you've got to stay home." I want a home.

01:07:02.940 - 01:07:14.120

I don't want to move anywhere more the rest of my life. So I said, "Don't be a traveling salesman." That's what he had been doing before the war. I said, "Don't do that.

01:07:14.200 - 01:07:27.880

That's not going to work." So I've stayed here in Memphis ever since and have loved it. Kelly: When you came to Memphis, did you meet his parents? Oh, his parents came to New York for the wedding, his mother and father.

01:07:28.500 - 01:07:46.360

And his brother was—he just has one brother—his brother was still in Germany, and he was in the Battle of the Bulge. And then they kept them there quite a long time, even after the armistice was signed. So I didn't meet his brother until a long time after we were married.

01:07:48.180 - 01:08:16.100

And so you came to Memphis, and then what did he do? Ed, he wrote to the Chamber of Commerce and asked them what vocation needed people because he had this degree in chemistry and they said there was a real shortage of pharmacists and that was so akin to chemistry.

01:08:16.800 - 01:08:32.680

So and of course he could go to college on the GI Bill of Rights. So he went back to University of Tennessee to get a degree in pharmacy and I got a job in a dress shop or something here in Memphis and in no time at all I was pregnant and had to stay home.

01:08:33.140 - 01:08:49.020

And so he went back to school for three years. And then when he got through, after he worked a year, we bought a drugstore. And we both worked down there for a long time, for about fourteen years. And he enjoyed that store very much, that he really liked it.

01:08:51.020 - 01:09:06.480

At that time you had what, a little boy? I had three little boys. I was married in '45. I had Doug in '47 and Ralph in '49 and Artie in '53.

01:09:08.320 - 01:09:20.340

I thought I was through. Then ten years later, I had my little daughter. My caboose came along. I've been very fortunate to have very nice children.

01:09:22.780 - 01:09:34.880

You helped him in the drugstore? I did. I did the bookkeeping and the banking and the cleaning. When the delivery boy didn't show up, I delivered, even with babies in the car.

01:09:35.130 - 01:09:53.420

Or if the soda fountain girl didn't show up, I did that. We enjoyed that. But I was glad when he had a chance to get out of it, because the hours were very hard him. And someone came, our landlord came and said, "We're going to tear this building

01:09:53.540 - 01:10:13.400

down. It's been sold." And a chain, one of those big chain stores that were just starting then with a pharmacy, heard about that and came and offered him a job as the head of their pharmacy. So that was wonderful. Eight hour day, five days a week, nothing could have been more wonderful.

01:10:15.220 - 01:10:43.700

As your children were growing up, what did you participate in with the children? Oh, well, I was very active in the PTA and the Boy Scouts and then with Laura the Girl Scouts and they all went to camp and a lot of carpooling here and there and whatever. How did you spend your summer vacations with the children growing up?

01:10:44.340 - 01:11:03.980

Well, Ed was always working, so when they were old enough, they all went to camp. They liked camp. And my youngest, my daughter, became a counselor. And Ralph loved working at national parks in the summer, and that's what he always would

01:11:04.100 - 01:11:23.400

do, get a job at Isle Royale or someplace like that. And they just kept themselves busy. We seldom had family vacations because Ed never had the time when we had the drug store. That was the thing I missed, that I'm sorry that we didn't have a long family vacation.

01:11:24.000 - 01:11:44.960

We just had him home for weekends. But I had real smart boys, two of them a Phi Beta Kappa, and the third one could have been, But he went to art school. And what outside activities are you now interested in?

01:11:45.080 - 01:12:04.740

Well, I was playing golf for quite a while, and then I got into bridge and duplicate bridge. So besides teaching, I play in tournaments and play duplicate bridge. That's my main hobby now. When did you get interested in bridge?

01:12:07.600 - 01:12:24.100

Just about 30 years ago. I played a little when I was in high school, but not much. But after we got married, most--and when we were in the Army, that's what people did. Nobody had any money to entertain.

01:12:24.260 - 01:12:40.880

You played bridge and a couple came over and you had a cup of coffee and a piece of cake. But I never became a good player until I took up duplicate. It was an entirely different game and I found it very challenging. And I know that there are other activities you're interested in.

01:12:41.060 - 01:12:58.520

Tell us about that. Well, travel is one of the ones I like the most. And then I read for the blind at the library. Unfortunately there now have become as many or more people who cannot read who are illiterate.

01:12:58.520 - 01:13:25.520

So it's not just for the blind anymore. And then I work with our local public station during their fundraising, WKNO. I do the radio instead of the TV and help them with their fundraising twice a year. And then I'm a big believer in giving blood if you can, and I do that five times a year.

01:13:25.600 - 01:13:39.860

I think it's the most you can do it. So, and I lend time to different charities and different organizations. Now I'm babysitting again. My daughter had her first child.

01:13:41.840 - 01:14:00.900

And since she lives right next door, it's very, very convenient for both of us. And your reading to the blind and to other children, are there any that stand out in your mind? Well, I don't read directly to them.

01:14:01.390 - 01:14:22.380

I read and it's on tape and they play it on the radio at different times. And sometimes I record a whole book. Oh, and I recently did a very interesting book, "A Life of Anne Morrow Lindbergh," her story, and it's a very, quite new biography.

01:14:23.140 - 01:14:32.920

And I read that. It was a great pleasure to read that book. So I record it. I would read it maybe two hours a week and record it, and then they play it over the

01:14:32.940 - 01:14:59.020

radio at a certain time. But we have a fine public radio station here and I believe in supporting it. Of all the things that you have done, Lillian, what are you most proud of? Well, because to me, the WASP, I never felt that I was brave or courageous or anything

01:14:59.200 - 01:15:18.340

like that. I felt I had the most wonderful opportunity to do something I loved and to enjoy, and that it was almost incidental that it was useful. So that was the most exciting time of my life, but I think that I am proudest of having raised

01:15:18.400 - 01:15:45.960

a nice family. In looking back at the WASP, what do you think the legacy of the WASP will be? Well, I think it definitely proved that when it came to flying, it didn't matter what sex you were, because the girls flew everything they were asked to fly.

01:15:47.200 - 01:16:05.300

And I know that Jacqueline Cochran went on later and flew all kinds of sound—broke sound barriers and did things like that. So I think that's the legacy of it. And I know the girls were very good, safe pilots.

01:16:06.120 - 01:16:21.900

They didn't believe in this hot-dogging and stuff like that. They took it very, very seriously and took care of their equipment and did their best that they could. What do you think the WASP accomplished as far as helping the war effort?

01:16:23.370 - 01:16:39.620

Oh, there was no doubt that in the early part of the war there were not enough male pilots, and that was the time they were really needed. And that's when we liberated those men so they could go overseas when they were really needed.

01:16:41.100 - 01:16:54.880

After a while, they trained so many that they had them coming out their ears, but at that time there was a real shortage. Kelly: Could you tell us about your three children? Steele: Oh, well, no, four.

01:16:56.760 - 01:17:13.800

My eldest lives just outside Boston. He is a physicist. He works for Polaroid, and not in cameras, but in the optic departments. I will tell you what I said to him one time.

01:17:14.460 - 01:17:30.120

tell me exactly what you do he said okay mother I'm inventing a machine to weigh something you can't see I said okay no more questions now my second son

01:17:30.240 - 01:17:43.900

is a physician and he's an endocrinologist and he loves the study of the glands and he's a very good very patient doctor here in Memphis

01:17:43.900 - 01:18:05.160

And my third son is very unusual because he has degrees in math and computer science, but he's also an artist. And he has illustrated several books for an eye surgeon. He'll go into the operating room with a mask and look through the microscope and illustrate

01:18:05.320 - 01:18:22.700

books. He illustrates software. And he's a very unusual boy. And my youngest, my daughter, was a theater major who played her way through University

01:18:22.820 - 01:18:40.740

of Tennessee. And we weren't too happy with her, but she went to Boston and got a job with an insurance company and got so fascinated with it, she went to night school for four years to get an MBA.

01:18:41.560 - 01:19:00.040

So she came through. Her dad really believed in education, so she finally did it for him. So they all are very happy, bright young people. Never been in jail.

01:19:10.440 - 01:19:18.760

[Laughter] Well, I think she was wonderful. I really do. I've heard how tough she was and how this and how that.

01:19:19.680 - 01:19:42.180

I don't know another woman that could have gotten this organized other than she. She had vision and she had determination. And I mean, I've read her life story and where she started from and where she came from, And I just admire her enormously.

01:19:44.500 - 01:20:07.760

What do you think your legacy will be? Well, I don't know. I just hope, you know, my kids like me and my grandchildren do. And I think maybe the legacy I've given my children is to not to be afraid to do something

01:20:08.560 - 01:20:33.920

different, or try something that's out of the way, and not worry too much to please other people, to have the spunk to try things out. That leads me into this question. If you could say something to your grandchildren, to your great-grandchildren, or to children

01:20:33.920 - 01:20:47.920

that you will never meet, say 25 or 50 years from now, what would you like to say to them that might encourage them to do things that they never felt possible like you did?

01:20:48.460 - 01:21:00.400

Well-- Let's give her a minute to think about that. [BEEPING] Well, I think through my experience

01:21:00.400 - 01:21:20.860

teaching for so many years, that you have, when you're learning something new, you mustn't be afraid to make a mistake or fail. And that's what I tell them. If they don't go down playing a hand, they're never going to learn how to play another one. And if you see something you want to try, you should go for it and not be

01:21:20.960 - 01:21:42.660

discouraged if you're not a huge success. Just don't give up. And don't talk yourself out of trying something because you're afraid it might not succeed. I think there's too much emphasis on succeeding and not enough on doing something for the pleasure of doing it and enjoying the effort.

01:21:44.100 - 01:22:01.960

So that would be my philosophy. I know that your life, as everyone's life, there are ups and downs. There are times that are not as happy as other times. Tell me what got you through those times.

01:22:03.000 - 01:22:22.900

Well, I'll tell you the worst time we ever had to go through. When my second son was born and was a month old, they told us he had a ventricular septal defect, which is a hole in the walls of the heart, and that he would not live past his teens.

01:22:24.440 - 01:22:46.160

And we could either smother him and nurse him and not let him do anything, or we could let him enjoy life as long as he was going to have it. And then this miracle occurred where they invented the heart-lung machine. This was so wonderful.

01:22:47.700 - 01:22:56.000

And he was able to have that operation. You got to cut this out. - Okay, I'll stop. - Let me blow my nose.

01:22:56.120 - 01:23:02.960

- Okay. - That's okay. - Yeah. Well, anyway, the first nine years of his life,

01:23:03.460 - 01:23:13.140

we tried to let him live as normal a life as his brothers and just tried to treat them the same. And I remember saying to the doctor, "Well, how can I keep him from doing too much?"

01:23:13.140 - 01:23:20.980

He said, "His body will do that. "You don't have to." So we did. We tried to have as normal a life as we could.

01:23:21.520 - 01:23:37.960

And then this wonderful doctor in Minneapolis, Dr. Lilleheim, invented this heart-lung machine and developed this team that could operate on people and have it dry, draw the blood off and run it through the machine

01:23:38.080 - 01:23:50.920

so the heart was dry. And I took Ralph up there to see him when he was eight, and he said, he's a good candidate for this. Although his liver and heart was so enlarged,

01:23:51.120 - 01:24:00.780

this child was taking digitalis every day. So he said, "I think I'd like to wait a year. His chest will be a little larger and I'll have a little more room."

01:24:00.780 - 01:24:14.080

So the next year I drove up to Minneapolis and he had the surgery. We had to stay up there a month. And this boy has never been sick a day since.

01:24:16.040 - 01:24:28.240

So when you have luck like that, you don't worry about anything else, you know? You have other troubles come along, but they're so small in comparison.

01:24:31.720 - 01:24:43.480

- And that son grew up to be? - He's the one that grew up to be the physician. So you can see why he's so gentle with his patients. - Right.

01:24:44.220 - 01:24:55.620

And Lillian, let me ask you this. Do you think that was just luck? No, no. I think some, you know, somebody's taking care of us.

01:24:57.060 - 01:25:22.260

But there are a lot of people who weren't born late enough because this had been, it's like so many medical things now. Sometimes the things come too late for people. So anyway, a lot of other bumps along the road are a lot easier to cope.

01:25:25.980 - 01:25:44.160

So in your life, and I must ask you this because of this, what part has God played in your life? Well, I'm not a very religious person, and I don't go to church frequently. I hardly go at all.

01:25:44.190 - 01:26:09.840

I was raised -- when I lived with the Swedish family, we went to Moravian Church. When I moved to Staten Island, they belonged to the Episcopalian Church, and I was confirmed in Episcopalian Church. But I'm sure there's God, but I don't feel like he's personally looking down on every

01:26:09.960 - 01:26:31.900

single person. I just feel like if you try to be a good person, things will work out. Is there anything that I have not asked you, or anything that you would like to tell us about that I've left out?

01:26:34.640 - 01:26:46.460

I can't think of anything. You've been an excellent questioner. You made it very easy for me to recall. And I'm sorry, there's some things I have forgotten.

01:26:47.040 - 01:27:04.360

But I never paid much attention to how many people or who didn't, you know, that kind of thing doesn't stay in your mind. Can I ask you what your favorite plane to fly was? Well, you've flown lots of planes.

01:27:05.520 - 01:27:21.320

I really can't—I prefer a single engine. I prefer to be up alone than most any single engine plane. Didn't you feel that way when you were flying? No?

01:27:23.080 - 01:27:44.060

I liked being alone. Oh, I forgot to tell you about a very stupid thing that I did once that could have been fatal. I was flying a plane across the Death Valley, and I said to myself, "I wonder what happens

01:27:44.060 - 01:28:01.680

to the altimeter when you go below sea level." So I am scooting along like this, and I suddenly see high tension wires in front of me. And I'm just flying a small plane, I forgot what it was,

01:28:02.120 - 01:28:13.340

and I pulled up, and how I got over those wires and didn't stall, I will never know. And it was the stupidest thing I ever did in my life, and that was truly lucky that I got over that.

01:28:14.740 - 01:28:25.880

But I mean, and someone said to me later, "Well, what did the altimeter do?" I said, "You don't think I was looking at that altimeter that time. I was looking at those wires."

01:28:28.160 - 01:28:40.340

I had forgotten about that. I'm sure I've done other stupid things, but that was the worst. Kelly: Can we ask you some historical stuff about the fact that the WASP history isn't in the history books?

01:28:40.860 - 01:29:01.020

How does that make you feel? I think it's really, really a shame. But you know, they had so much trouble even getting us to be veterans, because there are all these other groups who quite rightly feel like maybe they should have been, you know,

01:29:01.120 - 01:29:18.440

like CBs or Army nurse, Red Cross. There are a lot of peripheral groups that feel like they should have been veterans, and I think that goes against the WASP getting the publicity that they should have. I really do.

01:29:18.620 - 01:29:29.580

It's all those other groups who resent it. Well, we've told you kind of what we're doing. What do you think of what we're trying to do? I think it's just great.

01:29:30.480 - 01:29:54.880

And I think it's such a great story because there's nothing else like it. And I think it should be more widespread and be more of an inspiration because there are always going to be fields that need to be tackled and entered and that this would show, you know, you never can tell.

01:29:56.520 - 01:30:04.420

I think it's just great that you all are doing this and I hope it's going to reach a lot of people. Do you have a philosophy? No.

01:30:08.280 - 01:30:25.220

No, I never think I'm an impulsive person. I don't ponder, as they say down here, I don't ponder a lot about what would have happened if I'd gone this way or that way. That is not my way.

01:30:26.200 - 01:30:43.640

And if I make a mistake, I don't look back and say, "I wonder what would have happened if I'd gone." It's such a useless... So I don't think I have a philosophy except do the best I can at the time and not worry

01:30:43.720 - 01:30:56.000

about it if it was wrong. And I certainly don't try deliberately to hurt anybody, and I'm very upset if I ever hurt anybody by accident. But you can't call that a philosophy.

01:30:57.300 - 01:31:08.740

That's too big a name. [Laughter.] Kelly: Well, you have certainly led an interesting life, and we thank you for sharing it, not only with us but with children for generations to come.

01:31:08.740 - 01:31:18.180

Mildred: Well, I wish this whole program great success, and I think it's going to be so with the two of you working on it. Kelly: That's so sweet. Thank you.

01:31:18.360 - 01:31:23.980

Mildred: Okay. Kelly: Thank you very much. We'll see how that plays in Peoria. [Laughter.]

01:31:23.980 - 01:31:28.840

(laughing) - You can-- - Want a little Aida for us? - You can do a little,

01:31:29.480 - 01:31:37.180

you can do a little, I want you to-- - A lot of editing on that. - No, it is so hard when I sit and ask you things

01:31:37.180 - 01:31:48.660

and when you-- - Old darn thing. And he just never found anybody after that. I won that prize.

01:31:48.880 - 01:31:51.940

- Oh. - Air-- - And got your free hours. - Yeah.

01:31:53.140 - 01:32:10.260

We go on this car trip and we call it a mystery trip. I never know where we're going. He plots the whole thing. Because one other girl was a model and one was a champion golfer in my class.

01:32:10.400 - 01:32:17.300

Is this Injun's class? It looks like it done and taken it apart. One of the last we- Yeah, she was the golfer.

01:32:23.520 - 01:32:31.680

How many of them were there? Because he's looking at you with... I don't know. He's got a look in his eye. I even got engaged once to a sailor before the...

01:32:31.680 - 01:32:43.420

Oh, wow. Just before I went off and I had to break it. I said, "I'm just not ready to get married." He's a good looking guy. That's my sister, my younger sister.

01:32:43.980 - 01:32:51.580

Where's your younger sister now? She's in Wilmette, outside Chicago. Nancy, yeah. Oh, I was--

01:32:51.580 - 01:32:54.740

OK. I'm just getting-- That's very-- The really baggies.

01:32:54.780 - 01:33:01.280

This is a very unique picture. What was your first child? Douglas. A male.

01:33:01.580 - 01:33:11.260

OK. This is a great picture with the-- Seymour for his grandfather. S-E-Y-M-O-U-R?

01:33:11.840 - 01:33:19.260

M-O-R-E. OK. And his birth date? - To 1747.

01:33:20.380 - 01:33:27.180

- And where? - Oh, all in Memphis. - Okay. And his education?

01:33:31.680 - 01:33:38.640

- And he's a, that sort of. - It's an interesting tone. - Patna. - I graduated from the University of Houston

01:33:38.650 - 01:33:44.600

and we didn't have Phi Beta Kappa. We had Phi Kappa Phi. I'm a Phi Kappa Phi. - That's great.

01:33:44.620 - 01:33:57.560

- In 1970. If you're, what you've done with your life, had you finished all the way through? I love it the fact that you don't look back. I mean, and if it happens, it happens and you just go on.

01:33:57.720 - 01:34:04.100

I do. I do. Yeah. My husband was a worrier and I used to say to him, "Well, what are you worrying about

01:34:04.300 - 01:34:13.340

today?" And he'd say something and I'd say, "Well, give that to me." She said, "That does it." And she went down there and she and her daughter bought a big lot together and they each put

01:34:13.340 - 01:34:39.920

up two new houses side by side. She said, "Why am I living in Memphis, my only daughter and two grandchildren, except the very beginning." He's cute. He's a good-looking guy. My primary instructor is still alive. He lives up in Dallas. I just didn't keep track of names. We got to find out who this guy is, because he's cute. Oh, it's

01:34:39.920 - 01:35:05.220

It's in my yearbook. I bet. I don't, I don't think we have any, we have no pictures of watermelon, no. That was one way to cool off. And is this a soaking wet zoot suit? Yes, yes, I think they threw me in the shower or something. I don't know why. Maybe they threw you in the whooshing well. Yeah, that could have been.

01:35:08.820 - 01:35:17.020

If the weather was nice, he'd give me the day off. (laughing) - Oh, how neat. - He'd say, "Go home and fly."

01:35:17.060 - 01:35:20.800

- How neat. - Yeah. - And who's this guy? - I don't know.

01:35:20.860 - 01:35:28.280

I guess he was another instructor. - And a whole bunch. And went there for the weekend. - I think those pictures with that kind of border

01:35:28.720 - 01:35:35.340

were Sweetwater, 'cause all of my pictures have that kind of border. - Yeah, well this was Sweetwater, but they rented a cabin one week.

01:35:35.380 - 01:35:41.920

- Right. - And. - But I just think it's so odd I didn't even know you were way ahead of me that your pictures have the same border.

01:35:41.920 - 01:35:54.180

Still, that's my pictures. Well, you look real good too. You know the legs. We didn't wear the dress much. Yeah.

01:35:55.100 - 01:36:00.880

Did you ever buy the coveralls? No. I didn't do this. I don't remember ever seeing those.

01:36:01.040 - 01:36:14.380

I saw some in a museum. Oh, I never saw those. Of all the bases, which one did you enjoy the most?

01:36:16.360 - 01:36:25.680

Because you certainly had a variety. Yeah. I think Las Vegas. Well, you went to Orlando, didn't you? No. I didn't even know there was Orlando.

01:36:25.720 - 01:36:33.540

Oh. Well, see, that was fun. Yeah. That was just like- Nobody in my basement.

01:36:33.540 - 01:36:47.400

I think when that had started, I was already at two. I had more memory on my still camera. You know, she was talking about the being forced down.

01:36:48.280 - 01:37:15.520

Here's an article about it right here. Oh. Camera. She was right. They'd have an officers club.

01:37:16.640 - 01:37:24.160

How hard could that be? Yeah. Good work. Nice work if you could get it. Yeah. I didn't get it.

01:37:24.600 - 01:38:04.220

There's lots of swimming pictures. Grand Canyon? No, we were in a car. we stayed in a cabin. With whom were you with? Barbie. Hmm? I was with Barbie. We were little kids. Oh yeah, we did go in the car once. About the Grand Canyon, so.

01:38:13.200 - 01:38:20.500

Marchfield is in California? Yeah. Riverside, California. Riverside. Okay. That was Riverside. Great picture though.

01:38:20.720 - 01:38:37.320

Yeah. I've got a better one, but I couldn't find it right fast. How neat that he cares so much about you. I have a picture of him in his hat.

01:38:39.180 - 01:38:53.820

What's that men's organization? I can't even tell that that's red, but is that you in the little red plane? Yeah, we went up together. And yet there's... I think it's from March Field.

01:38:54.860 - 01:38:56.520

Because that place...