00:00:00.000 - 00:00:48.000

[ Music ] [Singing] [Music] [Singing]

00:00:48.000 - 00:01:14.760

[singing] [ Singing ] (choral singing) [choir singing]

00:01:14.760 - 00:02:05.660

[choral singing] [MUSIC PLAYING] [SIDE CONVERSATION] [INAUDIBLE]

00:02:05.660 - 00:02:26.160

Thank you. Once again, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the Ukrainian Association, I welcome you all to the Midland One Day Kespen College Conference.

00:02:26.160 - 00:02:53.460

And I hope that it will be a successful one. Let me first of all invite the chairman of the Kingston College branch, Nottingham, Carmel Michael Jackson. Mr Chairman. Ladies and gentlemen, my duty is a very short one.

00:02:53.460 - 00:03:18.460

It's a great pleasure to invite the Lord Mayor of Nottingham to give us a civic welcome to our regional conference. My Lord. [applause] Kevin Jackson, my dear dearest, ladies and gentlemen,

00:03:18.460 - 00:03:40.460

Thank you, General Jackson, and your colleagues at the Teston College Support Group for inviting the Lady Maris and myself to be joining you this morning. I've been given the pleasure of saying a few words of civic welcome to you all today. In doing so, I express my thanks to those who have been involved in organising the Midlands

00:03:40.460 - 00:04:03.100

Regional Day Conference, and I hope you have a successful gathering. I'm sure that you're looking forward to what the Speaker has to say at the conference session this morning, and which I'm sure will create much lively discussion. I would like to wish your organisation continued encouragement and success in its aims and objectives

00:04:03.100 - 00:04:30.060

in monitoring and gathering information about the position of billions of all faiths in communist countries. I appreciate that your going to meetings, not only your support group, but also at conferences like this, provide you with much welcomed opportunity of meeting and sharing your views and opinions. And in Nottingham in particular, there is a lively support group under the chairmanship of Cameron Jackson.

00:04:30.060 - 00:04:56.740

Once again, may I express my thanks to the Nottingham Ukrainian Society for hosting the conference. As you know, it is an important year for them, in celebrating their thousand years of Christianity in the Ukraine. And I'm sure you're all looking forward to the Ukrainian concert this evening. We all appreciate the very superb quality of their musicians, dancers and so on.

00:04:56.740 - 00:05:40.620

Colonel Jackson, once again, may I just say what a pleasure it is to welcome you all to Nottingham. Indeed, one of the highlights of our semifinal year to see such a group gathering in our city. Thank you very much. [Applause] [Silence]

00:05:40.620 - 00:06:09.620

We are delighted to have the Nottingham support group to see such a large company attending this regional conference and we are delighted that our friends, the Ukrainian Cultural Association are acting as hosts for this event. And what an interesting and valuable one it is. And we're delighted to have Reverend Michael Fulton, the General Director of Kessler,

00:06:09.620 - 00:06:42.620

who's able to come along with me here, to give us the latest picture on the scene in the Soviet world, but especially to anchor it to the great generation of the millennium of Christianity, with its roots deep in Ukraine and in Ukrainian culture. Fortunately, a little introduction is needed for our speaker, and I invite Michael Horner to speak to us.

00:06:51.620 - 00:07:25.620

Thank you very much. It's a great pleasure to be back in Nottingham after an absence of about 18 months. I didn't expect this morning I would almost kill the Mayor in presenting him with a book. Back there I slipped down the steps and we almost ended up with a pile on the floor. But the book that I was presenting to him did have Ukrainian significance.

00:07:25.620 - 00:08:00.740

It was called "Be Our Voice" and it is a story of the establishment of Preston College, how it grew from nothing to its present size as a research institute with about 30 people at it. The title of the book, Be Our Voice, comes from an encounter that I had with two Ukrainian ladies in 1964 in Moscow.

00:08:00.740 - 00:08:28.660

They had come all the way to Moscow from Pochayiv in western Ukraine, as I had come to Moscow from Britain. And we come for similar complementary purposes. They have come to inform anybody they can find about the desperate situation of their

00:08:28.660 - 00:08:51.420

own church, the threats, the closure of their monastery, and the child. I have come to Moscow to gather information, and by an amazing coincidence, the story which which is told in that book, we met on a street in Moscow. And in exchanging information,

00:08:51.420 - 00:09:08.040

I said to them, "Is there any request you have of me?" And the phrase that they used in reply is one which I have never forgotten. And they said, "Yes, we need your help.

00:09:08.040 - 00:09:32.040

be our voice and speak for us. That phrase, so simple, contains within itself the whole basis of the work and development of Keston College. Coming from Ukraine via Moscow, it nevertheless

00:09:32.040 - 00:09:54.660

encapsulates a call from believers in all parts of the communist world. The First People's Church in general speaks with that voice and in that phrase. And it is a response to that, which has seen the development of our work over

00:09:54.660 - 00:10:21.620

the past 20 years. Next year, we shall celebrate our 20th anniversary. But in those days, the religious communities in the Communist countries felt themselves very much in isolation. They did not have a voice which could easily speak to the world. That does not mean it was correct then to describe them, as sometimes people

00:10:21.620 - 00:10:54.100

did, as the Church of Silence. They did not want to be silent, but they did not have means of communication. And over the last 20 years we have seen a remarkable growth in the determination to and the ability to communicate from believers of the East to believers of the West. And when I began this work, I myself felt totally isolated. I did not have colleagues. I was

00:10:54.100 - 00:11:11.700

I was almost entirely on my own during most of the 1960s. But from that isolation, in this 20 year period, we have grown into a community. I do not mean simply the group of colleagues

00:11:11.700 - 00:11:29.080

that I had at the college itself, but a true community of interest, of support for, of prayer for the persecuted church, by the Church in many parts of the world,

00:11:29.080 - 00:11:47.160

which we sometimes talk of as the free world, the obligation to know about and to sympathize with the persecuted Church is something which has grown immeasurably during that period of time.

00:11:47.160 - 00:12:20.000

And as we come up to celebrating our 20th anniversary, of Keston College, not such an important anniversary as we are celebrating here today, which I shall come on to in a few moments' time. But we have, during this past week, been moving into the new block, which has just been completed at Keston College, and it more than doubles

00:12:20.000 - 00:12:46.000

our accommodation and any un-comparableness that you may notice in my lecture would simply be due to the fact that we have been in extremely busy, physically moving rooms during the course of the week. And I myself got back from a ten-day trip to America only last weekend, so it has been an extremely difficult week. But Roland, Brian and Jane, Ellis and myself

00:12:46.000 - 00:13:23.520

I'm delighted to be here and to be able to share this great occasion marking the millennium of Ukrainian and Russian Christianity with you this morning. During the course of the week, one thing which I managed to do was to go to a lecture in London a couple of days ago by President Carter's former security advisor, Dr. Bukhinyan, I assure

00:13:23.520 - 00:13:57.920

you my Ukrainian pronunciation is a little better than my Polish. Dr. Bukhinyan put forward a thesis which intrigued me. It wasn't exactly new, but it is not one that is popular to assert in political circles. As it was a political lecture, it was not to do with religion at all. Religion was barely mentioned in it. But his intriguing thesis was basically this, that the seeds of destruction

00:13:58.560 - 00:14:39.680

within the Soviet empire are now so evident, indeed to many people living under communist domination so self-evident, that the future of that Soviet empire is clearly limited. He said that it is most unlikely in the present circumstances that there would be a widespread return to terror, the kind of terror that some of us knew under Stalin. People in this room

00:14:39.680 - 00:15:10.880

experienced that, and I first knew the Soviet Union when Stalin had only been dead for six years. Professor Brzezinski foresaw in his lecture, and this is an unpopular thesis with our politicians because they basically like dealing with the status quo and not even the conservative government, so synthetic to much of the new thinking which is going on in Eastern Europe, not even the

00:15:10.880 - 00:15:28.880

the conservative government talks actively about a breakup of the Soviet empire. I've talked to some of our senior politicians and it's not easy for them to take that concept on board. But Mr. Przynski, who was a security advisor to President Carter and therefore one of the

00:15:28.880 - 00:16:03.640

most influential figures in the United States for a number of years and still carries a of power, says that the Soviet Empire is unlikely to be with us that much longer. He didn't place a term on it. But what he said was that we are in the middle of a process within which Eastern Europe, not the Soviet Union, but Eastern Europe, the rest of it, is turning

00:16:03.640 - 00:16:29.120

back towards Western Europe by reasserting its cultural and national identity as being part of Central Europe, a Central Europe made up of nation-states which reflect their own particular cultures and political traditions. This This vision has gained clarity and momentum in recent years among European intellectuals

00:16:29.120 - 00:16:54.880

of all kinds in the East, but it's significant that now these ideas too are being put forward by such people as Professor Krasinski. He spoke optimistically of a spring of nations similar in scope and force to what occurred in 1848, which is now taking place in the region which we broadly call Eastern Europe,

00:16:54.880 - 00:17:27.280

he singled out Hungary and especially Poland and three other nations as countries ripe for revolution, anti-Soviet, anti-communist revolution. He says that the national opposition movements have gone so far that the process of their establishment is now irreversible. And what is the mark of that Soviet empire, according to Brzezinski, which is different

00:17:27.280 - 00:18:06.000

from the British empire? There is not one captive nation which respects the dominant political partner. There is not one nation, either within the Soviet Union or outside it in the rest of Eastern Europe, which looks to Moscow with any kind of admiration for its political system, for its cultural institutions. Whereas with the British Empire, many parts of the empire did do

00:18:06.000 - 00:18:39.360

that. And even so, the British Empire dissolved just like that in a period of some 20 years following World War II. Nor is the Soviet model the economic driving force which it would need to be to keep such an empire in place. And I suppose that is the understatement of 1988. And I can see shadow figure of Mr Gorbachev nodding back in the back of the room there. There is only one force

00:18:39.360 - 00:19:13.600

which keeps the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe together and that is military might. Now that was Mr Brzezinski's thesis in outline, a brilliantly delivered lecture and carried a great deal of conviction. But I had a question of him at the end, and I was surprised that he had not paid more attention to the internal Soviet empire. And I said to him,

00:19:13.600 - 00:19:48.800

"How can it be that the world still, if the Soviet empire is breaking up, pays so little attention to the world's greatest nation which does not even have nominal independence, i.e. Ukraine. Mr. Kuzminski's answer I wasn't completely satisfied with. He said that we need to go softly in our dealings with Ukraine and the internal empire while pushing for

00:19:48.800 - 00:20:05.760

for democratic development in the rest of Eastern Europe. I was not completely convinced by that thesis. I think he underestimated the potential of Ukraine as being an internal factor for seeing,

00:20:05.760 - 00:20:23.320

for moving towards the end of the Soviet path. In other words, the growing dissatisfaction of Ukrainian people with the present setup, a nation of some 40 million people,

00:20:23.320 - 00:20:36.480

one of the largest nations of Europe. That internal dissatisfaction is a potent political force in the Soviet Union today. That is my view.

00:20:36.480 - 00:20:51.920

It is certainly a growing one, and I believe that in the year of the millennium, it will be due to grow even more. because I see this great event, one thousand years of the establishment of Christianity,

00:20:51.920 - 00:21:23.600

as being something which will even further identify the Christian presence in the Soviet Union, the forces moving away from the centre, the need and the growing determination of the non-Russian Soviet nations to move towards their self-identity.

00:21:23.600 - 00:21:48.840

Of course, this to some extent applies to Russia as well, but Jane Eddison will be talking about things of more Russian significance later. The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic is not particularly, looking at the words,

00:21:48.840 - 00:22:04.120

not a particularly beautiful phrase, neither is it, I think, a particularly accurate phrase. For a start, as we all know, the Soviets have been trying to Russianize

00:22:04.120 - 00:22:17.520

cultural institutions in Ukraine. And whether it is solid or not is certainly an open question. It is superficial, but I would doubt whether, beneath the surface, there is very much, really,

00:22:17.520 - 00:22:38.840

in the hearts of people in the Republic of Ukraine, which is specifically Soviet. Socialist is certainly not, and I don't mean to argue the point. And republic, it does not even begin to be except in Maine.

00:22:38.840 - 00:22:56.120

But the unfortunate fact is, of course, that Soviet domination over the last 40 years in Ukraine has meant that to the world at large, Ukrainian identity has been, to some extent, hidden.

00:22:56.120 - 00:23:19.640

and there are still far too many people around who ought to know better who refer to Russia when they mean Ukraine. They can refer to Russia when they mean Georgia, Armenia, or Lithuania, or Latvia. But the size and the importance of one of the largest nations in Europe

00:23:19.640 - 00:23:43.200

is certainly not sufficiently identified in the cultural and political manner of Europe at the moment. And I, as I said a moment ago, felt that Professor Brzezinski, to some extent, was guilty of misemphasis at that point.

00:23:43.200 - 00:24:13.200

are so many aspects of Soviet propaganda which have been successful in recent years. When I lived in the Soviet Union as a student in 1959, I was so horrified by the avalanche of propaganda which came across to me that I felt that this kind of propaganda was bound bound to be unsuccessful. But over the last 30 years of my working life, I have been amazed

00:24:13.200 - 00:24:37.560

and on many occasions dispirited to see just how effective Soviet propaganda can be. And in dimming the importance of Ukraine in the eyes of the world, Soviet propaganda has achieved one of its most notable clues. I mean, for example, one of the statements always made

00:24:37.560 - 00:24:54.080

when Christians speak together, there are peace conferences, which happen with great frequency, involving churchmen of East and West. The Soviet delegation will always

00:24:54.080 - 00:25:22.520

say something along the lines of, we, of course, in Russia of the Soviet Union are for peace. We have to do for peace because of our 20 million war dead. How many, any country which has lost as many people as that will inevitably strive for peace and then a more or less straight Soviet government propaganda line will come across.

00:25:23.480 - 00:26:03.720

It's amazing how much of that propaganda line is accepted unquestionably by church people in international conferences. And that phrase "20 million Russian war dead" is one that I've heard innumerable times, and it is simply not accurate. for a start, whether there were 20 million or not, there were a very large number. But they were not all war dead, in the sense that, well, how do you classify the million or so people,

00:26:03.720 - 00:26:30.120

soldiers who were captured by the Germans and were repatriated at the end of the war, and then disappear into the Soviet Gulag as traitors, so-called, and never emerge from the Gulag. They're in that figure of 20 million, but can you in any accurate sense call them war dead? And then it is believed these were 20 million Russians.

00:26:30.120 - 00:26:55.320

Well, as I'm sure everybody in this room is only too well aware, probably more than 50%. I don't have accurate figures, but the way the war waged across Ukraine, probably more than 50% were Ukrainians and not Russians at all. All this needs unpacking. I'm simply talking from my own personal point of view about how

00:26:55.320 - 00:27:29.320

effective Soviet propaganda has been and how difficult it is for me in my job to get people at the map of the solid, dominating part of Europe at the present moment. It is a time for new perceptions, and that is why I am so excited by this millennium. If we have any chance to improve these perceptions, that chance should come this year.

00:27:29.320 - 00:27:53.320

Russia, Ukraine, yellow Russia also celebrating its millennium this year. We'll be very briefly in the news. Our millennium, since it's already started, the Times has had a good article just before Christmas about the millennium. My own article on the subject was published in the Church Times yesterday.

00:27:53.320 - 00:28:26.320

I'm not sure that I'm wildly keen on the title, which is the Church Times editor's own title. It's called 'A Solid Millennium'. I am actually hoping that in 1930 years' time, sorry, no, that in 930 years' time, there will not be a solid millennium to celebrate. But nevertheless, it does say "One Thousand Years of Christianity" and the article, I

00:28:26.320 - 00:28:57.060

hope, is better than the title. And it does hold in balance the fact that this is the millennium both of Russia and of the Ukrainian Church at the same time. A leading spokesman for the world's largest underground church, which is in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Catholic Church,

00:28:57.060 - 00:29:28.760

Joseph Terentyev, whose name is well known to all of us, said this a few years ago while he was still in the Soviet Union. I want Ukraine to be a free and cultured country, not dependent on anyone. I want her to take her rightful place of honour among the cultured nations of the world. And for the future, I want us to find unification and freedom only in the love of Jesus Christ.

00:29:28.760 - 00:29:54.880

I think those are remarkable, outgoing, ecumenical words which are an ideal prelude to this great year of the millennium. And it indeed is a matter of pride and honour for me that I am able to perhaps start off my own millennium year in this way by speaking here today.

00:29:54.880 - 00:30:24.520

here today. I want to spend the rest of my time, because this has been a rather more political introduction than I'm used to giving, but these thoughts were in my mind, I want to spend the rest of my time talking about the place of the Ukrainian Church in the world today, that is the subject of my lecture as announced, and to give a Christian

00:30:24.520 - 00:30:46.780

view of that, whose Christian view? Well, mine. This is a very personal reflection. Yosif Teren thus points out the connection between two major themes in the history of Ukraine, the striving for recognition as an equal among nations, and the tradition of Christianity.

00:30:46.780 - 00:31:10.600

But what's the connection to the two? I think it's this, that today the special role of Christians in Ukraine does offer to the world lessons which it can ill afford to ignore. Ukraine can play, and I believe indeed will play,

00:31:10.600 - 00:31:27.660

a special role in the world of the immediate future by serving as a teacher, a guide, and an example. There is no country of the world where the ideal of the suffering church, so close to the New Testament

00:31:27.660 - 00:31:44.640

reality of the suffering church, is demonstrated than in today's Ukraine. My views on this, at slightly greater length than I'm able to pass on to you this morning,

00:31:44.640 - 00:32:05.900

will be found in this book published last year, 10 Dying Soviet Churches After 70 Years of Soviet Communism. It is magnificent, but also honest, to be able to publish a book called "Ten Grown Soviet Churches".

00:32:05.900 - 00:32:25.980

The persecution and the appalling experiences of so many people in Ukraine, recounted, for example, in Robert Conquest's book "Harvest of Sorrow" last year.

00:32:25.980 - 00:32:46.700

Those experiences, far from eliminating Christian faith, unfortunately Robert Conquest doesn't say much about that in his book, have actually led to a strengthening of the faith. And it's my profound belief that the Christian faith, generally in the Soviet Union,

00:32:46.700 - 00:33:12.100

is now more strong in its basis than it has been at any time over the last hundred years. I say 100 years because there was a turning away from the fact, certainly by intellectuals and so on, before the revolution and then the persecutions led in the Stalin. And it's only now that things have begun to change.

00:33:12.100 - 00:33:48.500

But they are changing, and they are changing profoundly. And we have a whole chapter in this book on Ukraine, on the Catholic Church of the Western Ukraine, and a second chapter on Ukrainian evangelicals, Ukrainian Baptists, describing their activities in the city of Kharkov. So may I be immodest enough to commend that book for further reading for anybody who would like more on the subject.

00:33:48.500 - 00:34:16.540

The book doesn't actually say very much about the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, in fact nothing at all, but Jane Ellis's book there on the table does, and I'm sure she will mention that in her lecture later on this morning. So what are these lessons that the Church in Ukraine has to teach us? And I refer specifically to Ukrainian Catholic Church.

00:34:16.540 - 00:34:35.540

First, it has to do with the relationship between the Church and society. Historically, the Ukrainian Catholic Church has been a church of the people, rather than a church of the state, of Polish and then Austrian and then Soviet rule. It's always shared. The people's aspirations

00:34:35.540 - 00:35:13.780

for the dignity and independence of the individual and of the nation. It has formulated the Christian basis and guiding principles for those aspirations. So it does today. The underground Catholic Church in the Soviet Union continues its tradition of Christian activism. Yosef Tereya, a few years ago, wrote a letter to West German Catholics in which he indicated the role of the Church and its responsibility in today's world.

00:35:13.780 - 00:35:36.180

"Thorny path now trodden by the Ukrainian Catholic Church leads our people towards love, towards the purpose of Christianity throughout the world, the Kingdom of God. International rivalry and strife should disappear in the way of unity shown in the new commandments of Jesus Christ.

00:35:36.180 - 00:35:58.500

We Catholic Christians cannot be passive observers of the destruction of the world." And in the letter to President Reagan, which appeared in the fourth issue of the clandestine Chronicle of the Catholic Church in Ukraine, the same author asks, "Can Christians stand apart from the events which are taking place in today's world?

00:35:58.500 - 00:36:16.500

When the fate of humanity is being decided, can we Christians fail to participate in the general discussion? Would this not testify to our indifference to social good? Jesus Christ taught us an active life among the wolves of this world.

00:36:16.500 - 00:36:47.780

Vassil Kovrin, who like Terenja, suffered years in prison for his beliefs, expresses a similar thought in his letter to Austrian Catholics, also published in Chronicle No. 6. Jesus said, go among the wolves of the world, which means that not only must we pray, but we must also take an active part in life, strive for the limits of our power to create good, and sow the seeds of love

00:36:47.780 - 00:37:15.380

among the evil of this crippled world. What was this active role that the Church must play in life of the people. In his Easter talk, in the fourth issue of the Chronicle of the Catholic Church in Ukraine, Yossi Pissarelli draws an analogy between the days of Ukraine and the Poland of the 19th century. When a nation falls into captivity, he says, it begins to

00:37:15.380 - 00:37:43.380

seek spiritual renewal and moral regeneration. It looks for ethical guidance. The day, he It's the Church which can serve as such a guide for the captive Ukrainian people. There's an analogy with present-day Poland as well, for it's there that the world has seen, and this has been acknowledged in the world's press in a way that Ukraine very,

00:37:43.380 - 00:38:06.900

very rarely features on the pages of anybody's newspapers. that Poland, as we all know, has been front-page news, and rightly so, many times in recent years. It's in Poland that the world has been shown how the Church can act as a powerful focus for the aspirations not only of individuals, not only of workers, and amazing that was to

00:38:06.900 - 00:38:34.740

our de-Christianised society in this country, but focus of the aspiration of the whole Polish nation there in the Church. This is true also of Lithuania, another subject to which both Eston College and I have paid a great deal of attention in the past and in the present. In the Third World too, we've seen the role of the Church expanding in certain countries,

00:38:34.740 - 00:38:52.420

but there is a controversy in our world today as to what the role of the Church vis-à-vis the state in the modern world should be. And is it not true that in the third world, the debate about liberation theology

00:38:52.420 - 00:39:05.540

has reminded us how easy it is to lose sight of Christian principles in the zealous pursuit of social activism. The issue of the church's role in society

00:39:05.540 - 00:39:30.860

is a matter of debate here in this country. Should the church be a commentator, a guide, or a leader? Should the Church be separate from the State, and if so, how far does that limit the Church's role in public life? In all these debates, the Ukrainian Church, with its rich historical experience, its tradition as a leader of the nation,

00:39:30.860 - 00:40:03.860

and, perhaps most importantly, the continuing Christian witness of the faithful in Ukraine, under persecution, can serve as a guide and as an example. The attempt to re-establish the official existence of the Catholic Church in Ukraine has been spearheaded in recent years by the Action Group for the Defence of Believers and the Church,

00:40:03.860 - 00:40:42.780

an organisation dedicated simply to the legalisation of the Ukrainian church following its abolition over 40 years ago. And despite the emigration of Yossi Terrenia last year, I haven't met him yet, but many personal messages have been passed along the line, He founded that group and was its guiding member, and despite his immigration, that movement continues for the legalization of the Ukrainian church.

00:40:42.780 - 00:41:07.740

And this issue of legalization brings us to an important point in our discussion of the relationship between church and state. In the West, when we are talking about church and state, we usually envisage a situation where the state is either neutral or positive towards the church.

00:41:07.740 - 00:41:30.380

In America, there is separation of church and state, complete separation. But certainly, the administration, political administration in Washington is positive towards religion. It is only in the Soviet Union that we've seen a phenomenon unique in human history

00:41:30.380 - 00:41:53.060

to the 20th century, and indeed to the communist world in the 20th century, a state which is hostile to all forms of religion. But not only that, it expressly sets out ultimately to eradicate religion. And the justification of our work at Peston College in concentrating on the communist

00:41:53.060 - 00:42:14.340

world is precisely this, that there is no other political system which has ever been devised in history which does seek the eradication of religion. There have been plenty of political systems where one religion has persecuted another, and there are plenty of those today which are not part of our study, and we're quite often asked why are we not working,

00:42:14.340 - 00:42:47.060

for example, for liberty of Christians who live under Islamic regimes. But the set-up of the political philosophy in such states is so totally different from the phenomenon that I'm talking about in Communist Europe, Communist Eastern Europe, that really there are no points of similarity. Because the philosophy of state towards religion in the communist

00:42:47.060 - 00:43:21.460

countries is so entirely unique, that provides our justification for undertaking the study that we do. As Marxist governments multiply in places like Ethiopia, Nicaragua, Angola, Mozambique and other countries, perhaps our traditional Western notions of church-state relations may be inadequate to understand the processes which are taking place in those

00:43:21.460 - 00:43:52.580

countries. And it is absolutely true to say that not only does the Soviet Union export in revolution, it exports atheism. There is not a single country in the world which has moved left towards Marxism which has not at the same time involved itself in some kind of active hostility towards the church. Of course the degree of that hostility varies from country to country

00:43:52.580 - 00:44:28.900

and perhaps you could not use the phrase 'active religious persecution' of all those countries, but certainly atheism remains at the heart of Marxist practice as well as theory. It is therefore important for us to understand, for the world to understand, what are the bases of Soviet atheism, and especially the legal bases. Obviously philosophical questions

00:44:28.900 - 00:45:00.020

are one thing, but what is written into the law restricting religious life is something beyond that and quite different from it. There are churches in the Soviet Union, as we all know, which are legal, and there are other churches which are illegal. But law, in the solid understanding of the term, is a tool of politics.

00:45:00.020 - 00:45:31.780

Legalization, the question of legalization of the Ukrainian church is very important here. Legalization is, in the view of the Kremlin, seen as a means to control, manipulate, and ultimately subvert a church. The experience of the Ukrainian autocephalous Orthodox Church in the 1920s was an example of that. And therefore, this explains the scepticism of many Ukrainian

00:45:31.780 - 00:46:10.260

Catholics towards Soviet-style legalisation. It is not quite the answer to say, ah, if we are able to re-legalise the Ukrainian Catholic Church, all problems will be an end. If you ask a Ukrainian Baptist that same question, the answer that many of them would give is likely to be negative. There are of course many Ukrainians, many Ukrainian Baptists who worship in registered, therefore legal communities,

00:46:10.260 - 00:46:47.940

but there are many others who do not and indeed would not wish to, as my chapter on harmony in that book illustrates. Such has been the control through the law, through legalisation of religion by the Soviet state, that there is widespread scepticism in the Soviet Union at the moment as to whether the present system can be properly reformed at all. Yossi Torelli once said to a Soviet official

00:46:47.940 - 00:47:19.340

when he was being interrogated, "I do want legalisation of my church, but not the kind that you are offering. For under regimes hostile to religion, the notion of legalisation is not a substitute for religious liberty. Indeed, it can imply the opposite. And this is a concept which so far has proved totally impossible for Western church leaders by and large to

00:47:19.340 - 00:47:34.540

assimilate. You will get waves and waves and waves of Christian leaders going into the the Soviet Union and seeing open churches in Moscow, full of the worshippers, or in Kiev, I like that term, and they come back and they say,

00:47:34.540 - 00:47:47.700

ah, we saw churches, they were full, and therefore what is being said about the persecution of the church in the Soviet Union is to some extent a creation of Western propaganda.

00:47:47.700 - 00:48:15.500

And one hears that phrase from highly responsible people. And part of the work of Pleasanton College is to inform and illuminate and to tell the world that, indeed, open churches for worship in Moscow, Kiev, and Leningrad are part of the picture. A proper part of the picture, not a sham.

00:48:15.500 - 00:48:31.940

But the persecuted church in Ukraine, where there is not one single Ukrainian Catholic church officially open in the whole country, That is also part of the picture. And the two have to be held together in balance. That is something which Keston College is trying

00:48:31.940 - 00:48:48.980

to teach the world, and which we find it very tough going to do. And then, of course, there are people who come back from the Soviet Union after these rather impressive visits.

00:48:48.980 - 00:49:05.260

And I've been on some of them myself. And then they say, ah, persecution. well. That was under Stalin, wasn't it? There are some who are persecuted today. Yes, we know that there are Christians in prison, but to a certain extent they bring that persecution

00:49:05.260 - 00:49:25.580

upon themselves because they refuse to go along with the state laws. They reject the system. They should obey the law. My heart turns over when I'm really revulsion when when I hear such a statement, because that is straight communist propaganda.

00:49:25.580 - 00:49:40.540

But it has been repeated by churchmen and churchwomen, for that matter, time and time again, responsible people. They should obey the law. And one wonders whether if that same person who's

00:49:40.540 - 00:49:52.540

made that statement, a Western church leader, was told, right, from now on, your children have no right whatsoever to learn about the Christian faith.

00:49:52.540 - 00:50:18.540

From now on, your only practical involvement in the Christian faith will be to go to church on Sunday, and your minister's fraternal or your church meeting coming up next week is to be banned. Whether they would accept that, because some of the state had decreed it, is highly dubious.

00:50:18.540 - 00:50:34.900

Law has been in the news and there is a question. Will the Soviet laws on religion be changed? Contradictory signals on this as on most other things are coming out of the Soviet Union.

00:50:34.900 - 00:50:50.260

And I am one who believes about Mr. Gorbachev, A, that he is sincere, he probably, he certainly does want to achieve changes. He sincerely wants those changes, that's what I mean.

00:50:50.260 - 00:51:01.020

But his position is extremely fragile. It could change at any moment. There is massive opposition within the Communist Party to what he's doing.

00:51:01.020 - 00:51:17.660

And it is also unclear what the long-term goal will be. It's quite possible that with his economic reforms, the long-term goal is to have a stronger and more powerful of the Soviet Union by the turn of the year 2000.

00:51:17.660 - 00:51:37.180

I'm sure that is what he's aiming for. But the question along the way is the means to achieve this. And in the favorable, among the favorable signs which have been coming out of the Soviet Union,

00:51:37.180 - 00:52:04.180

I won't go into all the questions of the church and blasphemy, that's another lecture that I can give, it's not today's, the question inevitably arises, is the church getting a better deal under Gorbachev than in the past? It's intriguing to think that under Stalin during his last years

00:52:04.180 - 00:52:31.140

there were actually more than double the number of churches open in the Soviet Union than there are now. That is quite a thought. More than double the churches open in the Soviet Union in the late 40s and early 50s than there are in today's Soviet Union. Only last year, or the year before last, did the number of theological students of the Russian Orthodox Church surpass the number

00:52:31.140 - 00:52:50.100

that there were in the Soviet Union when Stalin died. Khrushchev closed down seven, ten theological five of the eight theological seminaries. And the numbers were so reduced that theological education was under great threat as to whether it would continue

00:52:50.100 - 00:52:59.820

at all in the 1960s. Gradually, the three theological seminaries, which remained open, have expanded their numbers. And they're now more or less back,

00:52:59.820 - 00:53:12.460

or they're just a bit bent back to where they were in the 1950s. But it really is a thought which people find it very difficult to assimilate that in many respects the Church was better off

00:53:12.460 - 00:53:45.180

under Stalin than it was even in the 1970s during the period of so-called Daytona. So is there going to be a change in the Soviet law on religion? If there were a complete change, every town and village of the Soviet Union would open its churches, whether it's, or would build one or not, if you use a private home for that purpose, there would be not tens but hundreds of thousands.

00:53:45.180 - 00:54:07.420

In pre-revolutionary Russia, there were about 60,000 Orthodox churches alone. So, if there is a Soviet Union, I would guess that the number of churches would go right up to to 200,000, talking about all denominations, without any problem at all.

00:54:07.420 - 00:54:23.020

So we would see a growth factor of maybe 100 times over the present number of churches. And the small number of churches is ensured by control of the soviet law,

00:54:23.020 - 00:54:36.180

the enforcement of registration. No religious community can exist without the active license given to it from the Soviet state. And because license has not been given,

00:54:36.180 - 00:54:56.100

then the number of churches is impossibly small. So will that law be reformed and more churches able to exist, possibly without registration at all? I was on a conference in California last week.

00:54:56.100 - 00:55:22.860

And the Soviet delegation, Russian Orthodox Church, turned up and they were very happy. They spoke. Something I thought would never happen. I heard one of the delegation get out into the public and with the press present. He actually said, as Michael Bordeaux said, and I'm completely in agreement with him,

00:55:22.860 - 00:55:46.940

just as it was all in a day's work. And actually such a statement has never before come out of the Moscow Patriarchate, but they were extremely friendly, extremely warm. The leader of that delegation said, "We are not going to have a revision of the Soviet laws on religion this year. Maybe next year, not this year." And yet, his best year, just

00:55:46.940 - 00:56:16.300

three or four days after that, he published an article saying there is going to be a reform of Soviet law, Konstantin Kartsev, the minister, the head of the Council on Religious Affairs, the state body, said that the Church is going to be given clear legal rights to open new churches to recover traditional Church property. That's sort of sticking point number one.

00:56:16.300 - 00:56:44.860

sticking point number two, which has been the cause of many people's imprisonment, the rights of parents to arrange private religious tuition for their children will be respected. If that happens, it will be a major, massive change. I must say, in Glasnost, let me just say, you all know what Glasnost means, but it's misused in the press, it actually means

00:56:44.860 - 00:57:15.980

publicity rather than change. And the word for change is perestroika. And in my view, there has been much more publicity than perestroika. Perestroika is hard and starting again. And as far as the Church is concerned, very, very little has happened. Promises, promises, promises in abundance, but on the ground, on those collective farms, I doubt whether life has changed very much yet.

00:57:15.980 - 00:57:48.100

Will it? Well, we don't know, but there's every reason why we should be informed and pray and press in every possible way for change. If there were such a major change in the law, it would obviously have a very great effect on Christian life in the Soviet Union. Even in such an outgoing and perhaps forward-looking article as that in Izvestia, one key question

00:57:48.100 - 00:58:09.740

which concerns us was not mentioned, will church in Ukraine be legalized? That, at the moment, is very much of an open question. Let me turn away from that and mention, for a few moments,

00:58:09.740 - 00:58:20.060

ecumenical dialogue. And with this, I will finish. because it's another lesson we can learn from the church in Ukraine.

00:58:20.060 - 00:58:35.340

We've had something about lessons from suffering, something about church-state relations. Ecumenism. In our world, there are official groups,

00:58:35.340 - 00:58:59.820

official organizations which deal with unity in churches. And my personal experience is that I've learned much more about real Christian unity coming out of the present church than I had out of the official ecumenical organisations in our world today. It's a kind of buzzword, ecumenism.

00:58:59.820 - 00:59:23.820

And the lesson coming from what was probably one of the most traditionally Catholic areas the West and Ukraine, is nevertheless quite remarkable. The Christian leaders of the West have rightly sought a Christian solution to the East-West conflict, and that's brought them to the doorstep of the Russian Orthodox hierarchy,

00:59:23.820 - 00:59:52.060

a hierarchy which, as I've illustrated, is tangibly at the grips of a virulently atheistic regime. As we all know, very too well, the Moscow Patriarchate has been forced to support a Soviet foreign policy which is contrary to Christian principles. Forty years ago, it was also the Moscow Patriarchate was forced to participate in the brutal destruction

00:59:52.060 - 01:00:14.780

of a sister church, the liquidation of the church in Ukraine. I suppose that is the most anti-hellenical gesture of which any church has been guilty in the 20th century. And yet it is the Moscow Patriarchy which is the focus of ecumenical gestures by the churches of the West. But there's another kind of ecumenism at work in the USSR

01:00:14.780 - 01:00:48.940

which I find much more satisfactory, and it's an ecumenism which the authors of the Chronicle of the Catholic Church in Ukraine, the official publication, refer to on a number of occasions. they document it and I will read you some of that but I think I will go ahead as time is running out and simply substitute a few words spoken by Joseph Tureya in his very first press conference in

01:00:48.940 - 01:01:06.420

the West just before Christmas and one of our colleagues from Keston Con, Andrew Solakovsky, I go over to that press conference. And what Tereza said was this. The Ukrainian Catholic Church has close contact

01:01:06.420 - 01:01:25.020

with almost all religious groups on the territory of Ukraine, Moldavia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and also Russia. We have fairly close relations with the True Orthodox Church. That's another illegal group.

01:01:25.020 - 01:01:36.500

We maintain contact with the Teakhanites, that's the underground Russian Orthodox Church. We maintain close relations with the Lithuanian Catholic Church,

01:01:36.500 - 01:01:48.540

the most brotherly and the closest, most familiar church to us. But we also maintain contact with Pentecostal, evangelical Christians, the initiative Nicodemus Baptists,

01:01:48.540 - 01:02:00.780

the unregistered evangelical Seventh-day Adventists, and even with the church of Jehovah's Witnesses, goes far, broader in his ecumenism than many,

01:02:00.780 - 01:02:17.660

than most ecumenists would in the Western world. And so what can we learn from this? Or is there any experience, fellowship, with Christians of other denominations in his,

01:02:17.660 - 01:02:39.900

in his imprisonment? I'm sure he has much more to tell us in the future when he gets down to writing about his experiences, I look forward very much to reading about that. He assured us, by the way, at that press conference, just how developed the life of the Ukrainian

01:02:39.900 - 01:02:55.040

church has become in recent years in the underground. Our church has a clear and active underground structure, which includes bishops, priests, monks, nuns. We have functioning seminars,

01:02:55.040 - 01:03:05.120

which prepare candidates for the priesthood. In Transcarpathia, the area of Ukraine, from where I come, we have an underground school for the catechization,

01:03:05.120 - 01:03:28.040

it's a bit early on a Saturday morning, for that word, of children. The school is under the supervision of a bishop, an archimandrite, my superiors and close friends. I think that's an amazing picture after over 40 years of official abolition of that church.

01:03:28.040 - 01:03:47.480

What can one learn from all of this? Well, I think there are many things that one can learn. First of all, before I give you my conclusion, I would like to say a word about our open day at Preston College.

01:03:47.480 - 01:04:08.160

I think the question of 1987, for me, was raised by a gentleman who asked this question at our open day last October. He said, "Is the apparition of the Virgin Mary in Ukraine a sign of glassness?"

01:04:08.160 - 01:04:33.880

And having unboggled my mind, in fact I didn't have to answer the question, Andrew Sorkowsky who answered it, but struck me that behind that question, however, I don't think it's asked entirely seriously, But behind that was a very great recognition that the popular faith of people in Ukraine

01:04:33.880 - 01:04:44.480

means a great deal. And even the Soviet press itself has referred to the growing popular faith, to which Tsarevna also refers.

01:04:44.480 - 01:05:00.720

Quoting Volskaya Pravda, a Russian language, 15th of May last year, "Every day a mass of people comes here to Bruges by foot, by private, and by company car, by bus, and by train.

01:05:00.720 - 01:05:13.680

I didn't know they had company cars in the Soviet Union. And not, I think that's a mistranslation, it must mean... [laughter] I didn't notice that when I was preparing the lecture.

01:05:13.680 - 01:05:35.520

You must take this up with the editor of Darcy. I think it must mean a sort of communal car, like a Donbas in Turkey. by Basamantre, not only from nearby districts, but from neighbouring regions too. They walk, they rhyme, so that they may personally see the face of the Virgin Mary.

01:05:35.520 - 01:05:56.480

That is in the solid press, dear friends. Something is changing, and I think we need to be aware of the great opportunities the windows that may open during 1988, this great year of the millennium. So what can the world learn from the Church in Ukraine at the moment?

01:05:56.480 - 01:06:22.320

I would like to sum it up in the words of the late Cardinal Joseph Slikui, which he wrote in July of 1980. Well, it is last, I think, great pronouncements. "In the Soviet Union, the cross of persecution, born together, has given rise to a true ecumenism, which, purified by the uncompromising confession of faith and the blood of the martyrs,

01:06:22.320 - 01:06:41.320

reaches down to the most fundamental principle of the Gospel, to seek what is of God and not what is of men. For Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists and other denominations all suffer together in the same way for Christ's sake.

01:06:41.320 - 01:07:15.320

This suffering makes them all, in a similar way, children of God and of His Church. This is a gain of inestimable value. The modern ecumenical movement would do well not to lose sight of this new state of church affairs. So, pardon the sleepy. I personally am proud to be able to say that I have learnt more than I can ever express from the persecuted Church, not least from the Church in Ukraine.

01:07:15.320 - 01:07:41.320

I am proud to be dedicated, along with my colleagues at Keston College, to making the voice of Ukrainian Christians alongside those of others from other communist countries heard throughout the world. The whole of humanity has a lesson to learn about itself and about the essential nature of the Christian Gospel from this experience. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the Ukrainian supporters of Kestan College

01:07:41.320 - 01:08:03.320

worldwide for making it possible to establish the Ukrainian Programme College and to demonstrate its centrality to our work and concerns. We pray that the world may come to hear this voice more clearly. The Ukrainian program at the college was carried out by Andrius Overkovsky up to the end of last year.

01:08:03.320 - 01:08:22.320

The grant now comes to us from another source, but this year only. We hope it will be renewed for subsequent years. But this year it comes from Ukrainian Catholic bishops. And we have now working with this Marko Voitsu, who has just begun, and is making a very good impression.

01:08:22.320 - 01:08:54.360

The story of the Ukrainian Catholic Church has shown how great a role a church can play in leading people onto the stage of history in 1988 as in 1988. Maybe in this year we shall see the reopening, there is great agitation for it, of the Kiev's the cave's monastery in Kiev, which is the mother point, as it were, of Christianity

01:08:54.360 - 01:09:13.920

now for Ukraine as of Russia. I believe that the examples I've given show the important role that the person of the Ukrainian Church, with its special wisdom born of suffering, can play in helping the the world to understand three issues of universal importance.

01:09:13.920 - 01:09:28.080

It's the relationship of the Church to society, to the state, and to other churches. We can all hope and trust that in doing so, in carrying out this mission,

01:09:28.080 - 01:09:51.200

the Ukrainian Church will finally bring its faithful nation to its rightful place among the nations of the world. [applause]

01:09:51.200 - 01:10:37.680

Thank you very much indeed for that marvelous address. We have just about four for now, or what we're ready to have coffee. Q. Yes, it is. But the embarrassment is obvious because what I've heard is that there are whatever I've said about the possibility of changes in law in the Soviet Union,

01:10:37.680 - 01:11:05.600

there is no indication whatsoever that the masters of the Kremlin really want to bring Christianity into their system as some kind of positive force. Communism, Soviet communism, or the most remains atheist in a dedicated way. So a thousand years of Christianity,

01:11:05.600 - 01:11:16.800

that anniversary is bound to present them with a certain embarrassment. The way they seem to have got round, or are going to try to get round it during this year,

01:11:16.800 - 01:11:30.760

is to make as many overtures as possible to the church. It is quite possible that these statements, like the one by Mr. Karcher, promising of changing law could be just a palliative for 1988.

01:11:30.760 - 01:11:44.040

We will change the law in the future. So that when visiting churchmen come to Moscow during the forthcoming-- during this year, there is a package in hand which they

01:11:44.040 - 01:11:52.240

can be given in which it will say, ah, things are getting better. We're going to have new laws. And it's perfectly possible, because the Soviet propaganda

01:11:52.240 - 01:12:18.960

has done it many times in the past, that when the millennium is over, there will be backtracking. We had backtracking of a very serious kind during 1987. One of the jobs that Keston College has undertaken in recent years is to chart the number of Christian prisoners in the Soviet Union.

01:12:18.960 - 01:12:38.960

And back in the 1970s, there were some 200, and I was delighted to find this old edition, I think the first one we ever published, and it's on the table over there, it's going back now, I haven't stolen it. But there are about 200 names in this list.

01:12:38.960 - 01:13:06.960

And the number of Christians in prison for their faith went up, it almost doubled in in subsequent years. So in about 1985 or so, there were 400, if not 200 prisoners. Well, under Glastonbury, the number of prisoners began to fall, and some were released prematurely, and a great play was made out of that, and it was good that there was publicity.

01:13:06.960 - 01:13:22.160

But the same Mr. Karcher, who's promised to reform the law, I just quoted, said in the United States in August last year, all, not some, all Christian prisoners

01:13:22.160 - 01:13:34.360

will be released by the time we celebrate the November Revolution. That was the 70th anniversary of the revolution, last November.

01:13:34.360 - 01:13:54.440

And between August and the time of the celebration, hardly any further releases took place at all. And neither have they done so since, just a handful. And so Kant's clear promise of August 1987 has been broken.

01:13:54.440 - 01:14:16.400

So that is a very recent illustration of how little Soviet propaganda can, in most circumstances, many circumstances need. Now, it is obvious, this is by way of saying, it is obvious to me that the Soviet regime is going to make as much play as it can of giving Christianity

01:14:16.400 - 01:14:37.080

a good innings in 1987. In 1988, foreign churchmen will be invited by the Thousand. Great celebrations, the Levilivsky Monastery in Moscow will be given back to the Orthodox Church as a centre for those celebrations. And there will be massive propaganda around the world

01:14:37.080 - 01:14:48.360

about how great the gains for Russian and other Soviet Christians have been-- or they will say Russian Christians. And this is going to be in all the world's press.

01:14:48.360 - 01:15:02.800

And I think the Soviet Union will come out with shining absolutely-- just come down from the mountain of transfiguration. And yet, those promises of 1988 will not necessarily

01:15:02.800 - 01:15:14.640

be fulfilled any more than the promises of 1987 will be fulfilled, or were fulfilled, should I say. That is why the work of Chesterfield College is so very important, is it not?

01:15:14.640 - 01:15:23.200

We do not deal with promises. We deal with the facts and with the realities. And unfortunately, it makes us unpopular with a lot of people a lot of the time,

01:15:23.200 - 01:15:34.840

because we dig away at the facts and are not are satisfied with propaganda answers. So there is something on both sides. Undoubtedly, there will be propaganda, there is already.

01:15:34.840 - 01:15:48.040

At the same time, there may be positive gains for the Christian church. There have been some, but more limited than the public has really been informed about

01:15:48.040 - 01:16:06.760

because of the propaganda element and all this. We have to watch very carefully and analyze. [ Inaudible ] We all know that Christianity is a fatherly thing,

01:16:06.760 - 01:16:19.760

that's what he has told us. Don't you get hold of that crucifixion program, which is trying to prove that it is also the religion for crucifixion, Christianity.

01:16:19.760 - 01:16:30.760

And we know from history, and I'm sure you've heard from history, that more prosperous types didn't start from South Africa, and they in Christianity had to start

01:16:30.760 - 01:17:11.760

[inaudible] One of the great joys in my university career was to study the history of Kievsky Rus, and I had a marvellous time reading some of the medieval Christian texts produced by that great civilisation. And in my article in the Church Times, to which I've just referred,

01:17:11.760 - 01:17:40.760

one of the points I bring out is that in those medieval times, Christianity, the Christianisation of Kievan Rus' brought the Eastern Slavs closer to Western Europe than at any other time in history. It was a quite amazing period, and it was only the invasion of the Mongol Horde, the

01:17:40.760 - 01:18:19.480

Golden Horde, two centuries later, which broke the links of that European civilization and cut off the eastern Slavs from the west. One of the real tragedies of European history was the cutting off of the east from the west in that sense. And the links between the medieval Christians of the Cuban period and the later period of Muscovy, they certainly exist,

01:18:19.480 - 01:18:51.000

you can trace them quite clearly. But what is very important is this, I think, that Eastern Christianity in the form of Muscovite Christianity, one should talk about Muscovy as the empire that arose following the Tartar domination. The Muscovy civilization, Christian civilization,

01:18:51.000 - 01:19:03.200

was never close to the West in the way that Kievan Christianity had been. That was where we preferred, but that is where the break and the link occurred.

01:19:03.200 - 01:19:31.480

The Soviet regime is obviously taking great pains to say that this is the celebration of the Russian Orthodox Church and the celebrations themselves, the main focus of the millennium celebrations, will be in Moscow and not in Kiev. another point that I made in my article. It should be Kiev as a center,

01:19:31.480 - 01:19:43.040

and anything happening in Moscow or Kiev or Russia, all of which are in a certain sense, heirs of what happened, that first baptism in Kiev. But it should be Kiev that is the center,

01:19:43.040 - 01:19:54.200

and it is not being. I did discover from the Russian Orthodox delegation that was in California with me last week, that there is to be a celebration in Kiev.

01:19:54.200 - 01:20:02.840

I didn't know that before. I thought it would probably be something, but there definitely is. The very Sunday after things broken up in Moscow,

01:20:02.840 - 01:20:11.160

the next stage of the celebrations is to take place in Kiev. And I asked with great keenness for no detail, but they didn't give me any details at all.

01:20:11.160 - 01:21:03.940

(man speaking off mic) The question of Ukraine's authority, as it came from the Russian authorities. What are the challenges, in your opinion, of the renewal and inclusion of the Ukrainian authority in the endeavours for the liberalization? Well, that's a question which I don't know a great deal about. I think myself that there are Orthodox Christians in Ukraine who feel that they would like to

01:21:03.940 - 01:21:24.940

be part of the continuing Russian Church. that there is not a complete movement for separation within the Ukrainian community for separation of Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox Christians. There are many Christians of Orthodox faith on the territory of Ukraine

01:21:24.940 - 01:21:41.680

who would not particularly wish to become part of a Ukrainian Orthodox Church. At the same time, if there were greater freedom for legalization, undoubtedly a Ukrainian or a sepulchral orthodox church would also

01:21:41.680 - 01:21:48.560

come into existence. That is absolutely certain. The question is how big it would be, how many people would it represent.

01:21:48.560 - 01:21:59.280

I think Jane, I know, can answer that question better than I do. It's not something that one gets a great deal of evidence. For some reason, the Ukrainian orthodox

01:21:59.280 - 01:22:10.720

are not quite as vocal as Ukrainian Catholics, and we don't get as much information from them. Therefore, we don't know the thinking of Ukrainian Orthodox as well as we would like to do.

01:22:10.720 - 01:22:20.800

Jane, do you agree with what I'm saying? Do you have anything to add to it? It's a very difficult problem, this. But what I do notice is that there is a great difference

01:22:20.800 - 01:22:38.520

between the hierarchy of the people. When you meet Orthodox bishops from Ukraine, They express virtually no Ukrainian national feeling at all. They act as though they were Russians, even though they have Ukrainian diocese in their political.

01:22:38.520 - 01:23:02.840

Well, not necessarily. The Metropolitan Figaro appeared as a Ukrainian. And one that I met last week, Archbishop Makary of Ivano-Frankivsk, he is a Ukrainian as well. and we were talking informally about what were the chances of the Pope visiting the Soviet Union doing,

01:23:02.840 - 01:23:21.540

but then in the air, and I said to him one thing, I said, "Your Grace, I can assure you of one thing. If the Pope visits the Soviet Union, it is your diocese which will give him the best reception." [INAUDIBLE] I would like to ask a question about artificial church leadership

01:23:21.540 - 01:23:36.240

because one of the worries must be that when leading figures like Joseph Soroza are expelled from the parliament and were imprisoned, that the tendency today is easily to expel them.

01:23:36.240 - 01:24:04.000

Does the expelling of the great activity of the church [INAUDIBLE] I view the emigration of outstanding Christians from the Soviet Union as the middle of a short of a tragedy

01:24:04.000 - 01:24:17.120

for two reasons. The leadership that they provide is necessary there, And it is not so easy for somebody else immediately to replace those people who have gone.

01:24:17.120 - 01:24:30.920

And secondly, I think their role when they reach the West is held fine anyway. And they do not find-- they expect, because obviously information doesn't get through to them

01:24:30.920 - 01:24:38.960

in an accurate form, they expect that everybody in the West will be helping them in their fight. And they've come out, so they can conduct their struggle more openly.

01:24:38.960 - 01:24:48.400

And it just does not work like that. And I've had two very specific examples of it in the last few weeks. One of them is

01:24:48.400 - 01:25:02.040

Veneri Baranov, a Baptist youth leader from Leningrad who's been staying at my house for the last two months. And,

01:25:02.040 - 01:25:16.480

well, I think he's going to make out all right because his aim is to set up a Christian music group and to evangelize here in the West and then send his recordings back to the Soviet Union

01:25:16.480 - 01:25:25.440

and so on. I think he'll probably do that, but at the same time, life is very, very difficult for him and for his family, even more so.

01:25:25.440 - 01:25:34.900

His family are really tragic to look at. They just have not managed, they're not even beginning to integrate. It's too early, you wouldn't expect them to yet,

01:25:34.900 - 01:25:48.220

But they really belong in the Soviet Union. They've got no friends, or very few. There's no Russian community in London to speak of, not a big enough one for them to merge into it.

01:25:48.220 - 01:26:02.700

And the role that they were playing in their life before has just changed completely. And furthermore, there is no natural youth leader in Leningrad to take place as a nearly baron.

01:26:02.700 - 01:26:17.080

But the second person that I had in mind is none other than Yosif Turely himself. And he sent a message to me last week saying, unfortunately, I'm not even getting the support from,

01:26:17.080 - 01:26:30.060

not only am I not getting it from the Vatican, but I'm not even getting it from the Ukrainian community in Canada, in the Union of Canada. Now, I don't know quite what lies behind that.

01:26:30.060 - 01:26:52.820

I wasn't speaking to him face to face. simply a message transmitted to me by Marco Pozzu, who was with him in Canada. And what Torelli said was this, "Praise be to God for the work of Keston College. You are the only group anywhere that understands what I have been striving for in my group in Ukraine.

01:26:52.820 - 01:27:20.820

Go on doing that work, because I'm not even getting Ukrainian support as I wish." Now, please don't ask me what he meant by that, because I do not yet know, but I hope to find out. But it's obvious from that remark that he's not happy in his following his emigration. By the way, a little more about Turey. We have a book on the table over there, which Andrew Sorokoski produced a couple of years ago,

01:27:20.820 - 01:27:41.300

giving all the background of Torelli's particular position, his ambitions, his life struggle, and it's called 'For My Name's Sake'. It's a book I particularly recommend as a follow-up to what I've been saying this morning. Michael, thank you very much indeed for those of you who are here.

01:27:41.300 - 01:27:54.300

Thank you to our panelists for coming. I really like to thank you. Thank you for starting our last conference. So, now I'd just draw attention to the program.

01:27:54.300 - 01:28:06.300

We're now due to take a short break. A chance just to get up, walk around, have a look at the books, or find out the geography of the place, and speak on the matter at the conference.

01:28:06.300 - 01:28:18.220

And then we come back again in 10 minutes, and we'll have a new chairman for this, for a visitor-like session where we talk about the work of Professor Kessler and his colleagues

01:28:18.220 - 01:28:29.380

and supporters, with Professor Brian, the chairman and the director. The chairman will be Mr. Martin Francis Barnes,

01:28:29.380 - 01:28:43.380

rather than the member of the Parliament of the Republic of the South. you will arrive as well as the tourists. And just one thing more to the afternoon.

01:28:43.380 - 01:29:18.740

This particularly concerns the members of our own Nautical Support Group. Where it says "see," we're going to fit in our annual visa director's journey, expedition. [INAUDIBLE] So if those members receive what they need to eat and drink and come to the room and go to a case of formless, we'd rather do it now comfortably, for the concept of the qualifications of form, they didn't have to pay. I haven't had it so far as not at least ten minutes,

01:29:18.740 - 01:29:37.540

and it will be after our second reading. But now we break off. So I say, "Warmest thanks to Michael." [applause]

01:29:37.540 - 01:30:32.980

[indistinct chatter] [indistinct chatter] But primarily I'm here – I have described this as a fringe interest in your work.

01:30:32.980 - 01:30:48.900

I'm not of a Christian faith, and I have known for years the campaign that has gone on for the right to believe, the right to follow one's religion and one's practices in other groups.

01:30:48.900 - 01:31:03.220

And therefore, when this matter, the right of Christians, And there, by being in Russia, taking my notice, I felt, as a member of parliament representing a vastly predominantly Christian constituency,

01:31:03.220 - 01:31:14.540

that it was my duty, if nothing else, to do the best I could in that regard. And therefore, when the group suggested that Nottingham adopt the term "negrosham,"

01:31:14.540 - 01:31:26.500

one of the prisoners of conscience, that I had no hesitation in saying, yes, that I will do to use my best endeavors to bring that gentleman's blind to public attention

01:31:26.500 - 01:31:41.500

in this country, in which I believe the vast majority do not believe these policies exist, and to try and pressurize in some small way the Russian embassy in London to do something about it.

01:31:41.500 - 01:31:58.220

In that regard, we have a petition here addressed to the Russian ambassador to London, I will be putting it out after this session and during lunch. And if I could have it back and put more signatures on it,

01:31:58.220 - 01:32:08.980

the better. I would like to go and submit it to the Russian embassy early next week and add to that. The format, Roland Ryan will address you

01:32:08.980 - 01:32:22.980

for approximately 20 minutes. I promise to tinker on the glass if it goes on too long, like most politicians. And we can now move to the right of this for questions.

01:32:22.980 - 01:32:33.300

Can I ask, and I'll remind you again when we get to that part of the session, that when you do ask, could you please stand and give your name?

01:32:33.300 - 01:32:44.540

A, by standing, it'll help everybody hear quite clearly the question you're asking. And Metro-Goldman there, the badge there, might then be able to see who it is

01:32:44.540 - 01:33:04.020

that's asking the question. no further ado, Bernard White. [applause] When I was in my teens, I went to a church which I think can best be described as a tin tabernacle.

01:33:04.020 - 01:33:16.020

It was made of corrugated iron. And my job in the church, I would make part of the music team. In fact, I pump the organ. [laughter]

01:33:16.020 - 01:33:30.020

There are not too many of those instruments about nowadays. [laughter] Electronics and computers have taken them over. But Sunday by Sunday I would take my face out of sight, behind a curtain,

01:33:30.020 - 01:33:53.020

and pump the organ, whilst the organist played sweet music for the worship. I didn't think too much about the job or of its importance. To me, it was an excuse not to sing. Teenage boys do not like singing. One day a preacher came along, and I can't remember the life of him, what he was talking about,

01:33:53.020 - 01:34:18.020

except one illustration he used. He recorded a conversation between a virtuoso organist and his assistant, the person that pumped the organ. After a particular performance, the assistant, the pumper, said, "Didn't we play well this evening?" And the organist said, "We?"

01:34:18.020 - 01:34:39.020

It should have been "I played well?" The lad was quite naturally upset, determined to get his own back. And the next week, the organist took his place on the audio at the concert. played the keys, and something came out, and a little face came round the corner and said, "We?"

01:34:39.020 - 01:35:06.020

[laughter] I tell that story because I think, as an administrator, I'm rather like the organ pumper. It's not often that I can peek round the curtain and have a public performance, And thank you, London Support Group, for giving me that opportunity to sort of peek around and see something of the front line.

01:35:06.020 - 01:35:38.020

Also, in our Keston College organisation, support groups are put under the administration of the college. at the college and we attempt in the administration to give you all you need to enable you to do the work that you do so well in giving us support in all sorts of ways. What is the purpose of a Geston College support group?

01:35:38.020 - 01:35:54.180

First of all I should say I would not like this session to be a monologue. I know there are people from other support groups here and when I've had my turn in minutes I hope that you will join in and add to what I say and not necessarily question what I say.

01:35:54.180 - 01:36:13.020

The aims of a support group are, and I think I've divided them into three. First of all, to make better known the work of Guestham College. And secondly, to encourage informed concern

01:36:13.020 - 01:36:25.700

for the support of religious believers faced with problems of worship and conscience under communist governments. And thirdly, to encourage prayer and financial support

01:36:25.700 - 01:36:44.460

for the college. I think before we consider the aims, it is necessary to capture the vision of Heston College. Michael has already referred to, at the beginning of his session,

01:36:44.460 - 01:36:57.940

to the two ladies that he met. I would refer to them as two safety ladies, who probably don't know what their meeting with Michael-- what the effect of their meeting with Michael's had.

01:36:57.940 - 01:37:10.100

And the fact that a building somewhere in Kent has now been established as a result of that unique meeting. Michael used the word "coincidence." I would call it "miracle."

01:37:10.100 - 01:37:26.580

Because I believe that when God puts his hand to enable some work in his kingdom, then if it's necessary a miracle will be performed. And if you don't believe me regarding miracles,

01:37:26.580 - 01:37:40.460

then please read the first part of 'Risen Indeed'. When I'm low in the college, and administrators do get low occasionally, then I resort to the base material and I go back to 'Risen Indeed'

01:37:40.460 - 01:37:58.700

and read the first part. It inspires me. It inspired me before I came to the College and I think it influenced me in coming to the College, that God's hand was on that work and will continue to be on it. There's not time to fully relate this morning the events of 1964,

01:37:58.700 - 01:38:32.660

but please, if you haven't read it, there are copies on the table. So first, the first of our aims, to make better known the work of Keston College. At the college we spent a lot of time and effort in providing information and speakers for churches and groups, but in reality I doubt whether we reach 5% of the Christian

01:38:32.660 - 01:38:54.580

church in this country. We could send out literature and perhaps through the official name of the church, a religious denomination, but I do not think this would be as effective as individuals who have already captured the vision of what we're doing,

01:38:54.580 - 01:39:11.900

actually passing it on to the people that they know. Also in these days where there's so much cooperation between churches, not only within your own church, but also within perhaps your local council of churches,

01:39:11.900 - 01:39:25.780

you can make better known what we are endeavouring to do at the college. After all, Caston College, since its beginning, has been ecumenical.

01:39:25.780 - 01:39:53.020

Not only in what it does, it looks equally, regardless of denomination or a deep faith, or indeed faith, of those that have been persecuted and treats them all equally. But if you look at the staff, it's a unique example of people of virtually every denomination in the UK working harmoniously together.

01:39:53.020 - 01:40:30.020

After all, it was our Lord's prayer that his church should be one. I feel it's a privilege that the College is just perhaps a small part of fulfilling that wish of our Lord. Always on our agenda we've put very highly the importance of advising and informing the British Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches of the work of Chester College.

01:40:30.020 - 01:40:56.020

They've not always listened, but we've been persistent in our efforts. A second aim is to encourage the important concern for the support of religious believers faced with problems of worship and conscience in communist countries. And support groups do this in a variety of ways.

01:40:56.020 - 01:41:23.020

Incidentally, there are about 25 support groups in the United Kingdom, and there are others in other countries, principally in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the United States. Some of the groups are more ambitious than others, naturally. and some of the drug conferences such as the Nottingham Group this morning.

01:41:23.020 - 01:41:59.020

If I can get a plug in for the next one, the Anvil Group, which is in a million miles from Nottingham, are going to have a residential conference on the 10th and 11th of September. The full details of that will be in the rights for leave, not the next one but the one after. Most of the groups run local meetings and use material which we send as a base for discussion at such meetings.

01:41:59.020 - 01:42:35.020

Most of them promote our lecture chair. We've done something about it this morning. All the books on the table are available through the college, but our support groups act as agents, if you like, and endeavour to make the work better known by promoting our literature. Also, we would like to extend to as many people as possible the work of the College,

01:42:35.020 - 01:43:02.020

And to do that we have the newsletter, a copy of which is on each chair, and if you're not a regular receiver of that newsletter, then we would love to send it to you quite freely about once a quarter. There will be a sheet going round sometime in the next half an hour. please sign your name and you will receive it freely.

01:43:02.020 - 01:43:32.940

To get some idea of what the college is doing. I think the common denominator which runs across all of the basketball groups is the question of prayer. The God's mission to Eastern Europe is physically difficult. The Church has, when its conscience

01:43:32.940 - 01:44:10.540

has been pricked, resorted to prayer. I say resorted because quite often the Church forgets to pray, and yet it is the most powerful weapon we have. And each of our small groups, I know, regularly for prayer for those that have been persecuted in communist countries. Thirdly, we would like to encourage you to pray for the college itself and keep us

01:44:10.540 - 01:44:28.540

going with the power of prayer. We have our frustrations, we have our difficulties. Just at the moment, I think Michael referred earlier on to his problem this week. Currently, I have two offices. That isn't a privilege.

01:44:28.540 - 01:44:56.260

It's very difficult to work in one when only half of your stuff is in one and the other half in another. But when you're moving office and trying to keep the place going, life can get difficult. Fortunately, our staff are superb. And I'm sure, had I been with my previous employer, there would have been walkouts and strikes,

01:44:56.260 - 01:45:30.260

but there's been hardly a murmur amongst the staff during the last week. I think it's a great credit to work with such a group of people that take quite easily to moving furniture up and down stairs and trying to sort out who has what. and then financial support. I think one of the things I find most difficult

01:45:30.260 - 01:45:46.260

is to ask people for money. First of all, can I say thank you. Last October, we could not see our way forward.

01:45:46.260 - 01:46:00.260

In fact, when I did the projections, this is possible news to Jay, I could not see a way forward to paying the November salaries. We were in a financial crisis.

01:46:00.260 - 01:46:20.260

Things turned around incredibly rapidly. Our supporters came to our aid. In fact, in December, we had more money given to us in December 1987 than any other month on record

01:46:20.260 - 01:46:43.260

on what oil deficit has now turned into a surplus on our current account. And for those of you that gave so generously to the colleague at Gild here this morning, I say thank you from the bottom of my heart. It's been a tremendous relief to all of us to enable us to plan forward into the next year.

01:46:43.260 - 01:47:05.260

It has encouraged us to no end. But other than the salaries of course we have a new building that has to be paid for. The building is up, the builder has been paid, or will be when he's finished doing the bit of it, but we always get forgotten on set contracts.

01:47:05.260 - 01:47:31.260

But we have an enormous load to repay, and it will take us some time to repay that, so that we can put all our effort once again in expanding the work of the college. So your financial support is needed. It may not be possible for you to give large donations,

01:47:31.260 - 01:47:51.260

but you may be able to help in other ways. Some support groups I know run coffee mornings. Last week, one support group sent a letter with a cheque for I think it was about £170 raised at one copy. That's the possibility.

01:47:51.260 - 01:48:09.500

Another way, one of our supporters, he's going to run the London Marathon. Roger Rowe lives in North London. And fortunately, because he's a professional marathon runner, but he's a regular marathon runner,

01:48:09.500 - 01:48:19.660

he knew he would be accepted some time ago. So it enabled us to get reasonably well organized and print up forms. And I've brought some along today.

01:48:19.660 - 01:48:30.420

If you'd like to take them with you and arrange sponsorship over a journey in your own church or group, then please take a form and get as many sponsors as you can.

01:48:30.420 - 01:49:04.780

Although we receive some bridesmaid trusts, most of our support comes from either individuals or churches. Without that area of support, Keston would not exist. I started by referring to the vision of Catherine College and the events of 1964.

01:49:04.780 - 01:49:30.780

You might say there have been changes since then, and the position of believers has improved, or has it? After all, Mr. Gorbachev and Glaznov, to my view, is the word, because I don't speak Russian and don't fully understand it, but everybody can know what I mean when I use that term. You heard Michael this morning. Hopefully, we pray that things will get better.

01:49:30.780 - 01:50:03.940

But I put it to you that our work, not only at the College, but coming out into the support groups, it's a spiritual battle that we're fighting. There's no room in a Marxist philosophy for belief in God. Yet there are some, even members of the Church, who say such a combination of Marxism and Christianity will eventually bring about a utopia.

01:50:03.940 - 01:50:19.420

I put it to you, how can a recipe of atheist Marxism and spiritual Christianity ever result in the Kingdom of God? [INAUDIBLE] No, you're doing very well. You've got two and a half minutes left.

01:50:19.420 - 01:50:29.420

[LAUGHTER] You're doing very well. Well, can I remind you in the two and a half minutes of the sponsor board, the board that's going around.

01:50:29.420 - 01:50:41.420

Dorothy will pass that around. The bookstore, please-- I know it's just a lot of you browsing over the break earlier on. Please continue to browse.

01:50:41.420 - 01:51:01.420

but not anywhere else but by. And then if there are questions, and perhaps people of other groups might wish to add to what I've said. Thank you. [Applause]

01:51:01.420 - 01:51:41.920

If I may, if I may, please. [ Inaudible ] absolutely straight, if we were a government sponsored organisation, I would not have to appeal to you for finance. We get it. Not, I think, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

01:51:41.920 - 01:51:59.440

I've just become a deputy. David. I'm David Regan, not in support group, which I've been noted.

01:51:59.440 - 01:52:15.880

I wanted to ask Mr. Bryan about perhaps a new role for support groups. As you say, the situation is changing, and so perhaps the work of the college and its support groups

01:52:15.880 - 01:52:33.880

need to adapt to the changing circumstances. And I was struck by Michael Bordeaux's answer to the question I put about leaders of the church who are exiled to the West, and the sense of loss

01:52:33.880 - 01:52:46.880

that so often these devout, active, Christian people have come to the West. And I don't know if that's your administrative burden, Mr. Bryan, but might it be possible to keep

01:52:46.880 - 01:53:02.880

a list of folk like this who are in a different Western country, in a certain country, in Britain or Canada or Australia, wherever they are, and to consider whether or not there might be some role that the support groups could play

01:53:02.880 - 01:53:21.480

in helping them to adjust to the West. For instance, Barrymore, I don't know if other support groups might well be willing to organize a pop music concert or cultural, as one of you would play at,

01:53:21.480 - 01:53:37.360

and other people similarly in the West. So what I'm asking you as the administrator, if you have an up-to-date list of programs like this that improve circulation in the United States,

01:53:37.360 - 01:53:46.440

I realize there are problems, language problems, and all kinds of problems like this, but maybe there is a role there that could be developed but there are at least some of these people

01:53:46.440 - 01:54:00.920

who have to respond to that. - I think a list could be produced without difficulty. The biggest problem is that a majority do not reside in the UK,

01:54:00.920 - 01:54:13.320

having voted not to allow it, so they end up mostly, sadly, in North America. I do know something about Valeriy Baikonov, and if you would like to invite him

01:54:13.320 - 01:54:23.920

to Nottingham, and perhaps you will see me afterwards. I have a meeting of the Valeri Balan Support Group, I think next week sometime. And we will consider his invitations

01:54:23.920 - 01:54:43.120

and try to coordinate them so that he, his time is used as properly as possible. I think the other part is perhaps how can you help them? And I find that incredibly difficult to answer.

01:54:43.120 - 01:54:58.120

The biggest two barriers, as I see it, and I've not had a lot of experience with, the first was language and the second was culture. It must be an incredible culture shock for anybody even to come to the UK, to go on the States. I mean, it's a culture shock to go to the States from here.

01:54:58.120 - 01:55:14.120

No one can take you to go to the Soviet Union in the States. So, that, I don't know how you get over that one. Language, of course, needs special skills. You need people that speak their own native language.

01:55:14.120 - 01:55:32.120

And where they are in this country, we can handle it to a certain extent. Michael and Lorna, of course, both speak Russian, were able to help with that, even his wife and two children, teenagers, Michael called children, I can imagine.

01:55:32.120 - 01:55:54.120

I think of the two major problems, my point. We can provide you with a list, certainly, no difficulty. Most of you will find her either in Canada or America, or possibly Germany. The Pentecostal seed will be going into Germany, because that's where the rivers are.

01:55:54.120 - 01:56:13.120

Q. Sir, can I just come back very briefly to the question you raised, so that it is not lost too slightly. I don't think you would wish to give the Soviet Union a propaganda that could actually prove that the Kremlin is getting money directly from government.

01:56:13.120 - 01:56:22.320

There's a great danger there. But since you mentioned fundraising, and I know I'm perhaps teaching my grandmother in Stuttgart, If those are insightful facts, you

01:56:22.320 - 01:56:36.200

can come to a charitable foundation with what you want to give on an annual basis. And in a direct way, therefore, a clawing back tax to the best of your chance from public funds.

01:56:36.200 - 01:56:48.160

And of course, under the rules that came under the last budget, you can now do charity giving through payroll. So groups ought to think seriously

01:56:48.160 - 01:57:00.540

about those two methods for helping to catch them, indirectly, you should probably pass by, and I think that this is done overtly and openly, because there's a solid view of what,

01:57:00.540 - 01:57:14.760

so there's a clear propaganda, too. Gentlemen, gentlemen, come. - The intervention of the foundation, that's it, is a great thing, and we love it.

01:57:14.760 - 01:57:34.640

I have met [INAUDIBLE] Yes, we have a-- Correct. We've had a Ukrainian department started

01:57:34.640 - 01:57:54.240

by Andrew Sokolovy, who was seconded from Harvard University for three years. and that second one finished in December of last year. We've now a grant to enable work to continue for this year from the Ukrainian bishops

01:57:54.240 - 01:58:17.240

and we have a staff member, part-time at the moment, who is continuing with Ukrainian research. So the work on Ukrainian research will continue for the possible future. With grants, you normally get them on a yearly basis. So, although this grant will cease at the end of this year,

01:58:17.240 - 01:58:36.240

we can always ask for another one to continue into 1989, or go somewhere else, perhaps some other organization may wish to support Ukrainian research. Perhaps Ukrainian groups in this country may wish to do something on that line.

01:58:36.240 - 01:58:44.920

when it enlarged, if you could. Could I just say one thing? We would also, of course, like to have the Ukrainian room in the new building.

01:58:44.920 - 01:58:57.160

And if Ukrainian funding were to come into that, there would be one room. We've got a good dozen rooms now, new, that we would be interested to build the same.

01:58:57.160 - 01:59:09.040

And have one of those rooms identify the Ukrainian work would be fine for our college. and I hope it will be something the Ukrainian community as well can find.

01:59:09.040 - 02:00:03.000

[INAUDIBLE] [INAUDIBLE] [ Inaudible ] [INAUDIBLE]

02:00:03.000 - 02:00:14.960

Thank you very much. Yes, sir. I'm from Borden Rapids, but that's in Ukraine. So, just a point of information.

02:00:14.960 - 02:00:35.480

I believe Keston College and the University of London are organising a seminar or a conference sometime in July, Friday morning, specifically with the Ukrainian church on Monday. Could you give us some further information? Well, you've got one of the co-organisers sat in the front row.

02:00:35.480 - 02:00:55.280

Jamie is probably in a better position than I am to answer. Yes, this is quite true. There'll be a conference at London University from the 11th to the 15th of July this year, jointly organised by Chester College and the School of Dermatology and East European Studies.

02:00:55.280 - 02:01:12.920

We have a, I think, quite impressive panel of over 30 international specialists on religion in the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union. There will be different panels. I think two of the panels will be on Ukraine

02:01:12.920 - 02:01:23.800

and from leading Ukrainian specialists coming from North America, as well as from Germany and this country. But other panels will also cover Russia,

02:01:23.800 - 02:01:38.840

both pre-revolutionary and post-revolutionary subjects. And we hope to have some on Belarusia also. It is very much an academic conference, with papers distributed and being discussed, and so on.

02:01:38.840 - 02:01:51.200

It will be on an academic level. - Thank you very much. - Yes, sir. - Ken Hawke, a revisionist from Leicester.

02:01:51.200 - 02:02:07.280

There are a number of organizations on here, who reckon to support Christians in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. and to some extent they appear to us at the scenes of literature as competitors for fun.

02:02:07.280 - 02:02:25.280

Could Mr. Bryan say something about relations with these bodies, since it strikes me are open doors and age-researching needs, and whether relations with them are primary competitors or rather complementary? Thank you.

02:02:25.280 - 02:02:41.280

As far as Christian colleges are concerned, we don't do anything with them. We work with them more. They rely heavily on us for information. And in fact, the two that you mentioned help us in a financial way.

02:02:41.280 - 02:03:06.840

I think that also the two that you mentioned, one was Open Doors. It is very much an evangelical organisation. Church of England is a Roman Catholic organisation, so I think they probably come in different areas of Eastern Europe by their very nature, but I'm sure, probably is, but I understand about 100

02:03:06.840 - 02:03:30.040

missions I think are trying to, more than Jane says, are trying to work in Eastern Europe in in some sort of way, inevitably there must be some clash on occasions. We at the College avoid the clash. It is not our intention to give support to some and not to others.

02:03:30.040 - 02:03:46.040

We try to, if they seek information from us, I like to look upon this as, if you like, the intelligence corps of the army. When we've got the information, it can help them perhaps with the mission trying to fulfill in that particular interest in Eastern Europe.

02:03:46.040 - 02:04:05.040

Yes, gentleman back there. Yes, sir. We, the Danish people here, defend ourselves,

02:04:05.040 - 02:04:24.040

we defend our beautiful India from the German Red Center, Germany. We know our people. For us children and grandchildren born in the Red Star,

02:04:24.040 - 02:04:37.040

in the Red Star, we live here. This is a free world. You can be in London, Manchester, Manchester, London, and so on, America.

02:04:37.040 - 02:04:53.040

But no one has Ukrainian language in Odessa. You can see there is Ukrainian language in Kiev. Kharkov, also big cities, all Russian cities. You can read it everywhere, nowhere.

02:04:53.040 - 02:05:07.040

But we have free here in the country. You read everywhere, in the streets, cinema, after the commencement, by the way, in Crimea. cannot speak Ukrainian at all.

02:05:07.040 - 02:05:19.040

That's the problem. Everybody is fighting for their freedom, but free language, free speech, probably cannot.

02:05:19.040 - 02:05:27.040

That's the reason. Trouble for us, to write in Ukrainian books, read in journals, different,

02:05:27.040 - 02:05:36.680

paper in Ukrainian, cannot write in it at all, No, only for the Russian. That's not freedom.

02:05:36.680 - 02:05:46.560

We must give it up, because we got freedom. We got more freedom for everybody. The Russians say, "No, no, no." Only Russia.

02:05:46.560 - 02:06:05.880

(speaking in foreign language) - Thank you very much. - Thank you. - Thank you for your time.

02:06:05.880 - 02:06:16.880

(speaking off mic) - Two of them. (laughing) (speaking off mic)

02:06:16.880 - 02:06:32.620

- In recent years, in the (speaking off mic) Jewish groups who were highlighted the position of Jews wanting to leave the USSR.

02:06:32.620 - 02:06:46.620

I think you'd agree that in terms of numbers, the Jewish dissidents are quite small compared to Christians who are refugees from the USSR. And yet there's such spectacular success.

02:06:46.620 - 02:07:05.620

Why do you think that Christian groups are faring so badly, and very remarkably are faring so badly, should we really have a different approach to our human kind of this problem? Can I take this one?

02:07:05.620 - 02:07:30.620

[laughter] You have the excitement with your finger on why I so readily agreed to come this morning, why we're so happy to be here, because I have known, felt for a long time, I'm puzzled as to why the situation pertains just as you describe it.

02:07:30.620 - 02:08:17.620

I don't know of any synagogue in the United Kingdom that doesn't have a small group within it who sees it as their religious duty to keep up front this right to believe wherever Jewish people are in the world, and in particular in East London and the Soviet Union, and fundraising and writing letters and pressurizing peaceful demonstration. There can be no one that is not aware of Jewish persecution in the Soviet Union.

02:08:17.620 - 02:08:53.620

But as I think you said earlier, that is a surprisingly minority interest, and I say this with deep sadness in the Christian church, and I find it a great problem. If I may just quote one little demonstration of how it is handled in a Jewish church. When my youngest son was 13, he had his traditional pittsburgh, or congregation, and because we know that that is illegal and not permitted in the Soviet Union,

02:08:53.620 - 02:09:17.620

The rabbi that instructed my youngster, steered him through the nightmare of that Sabbath service. For those of you who don't know, the poor kid of 13 is actually the first to paint the Sabbath service on that day. Why he put such a burden on 13 year olds, I never know, but they all seemed to live through it, obviously.

02:09:17.620 - 02:09:45.620

The interesting point is this, the rabbi said to my youngster, would you be prepared to say your portion of the law of the Bible, not only on your own behalf, but on behalf of a named Russian child in the Soviet Union who is not allowed on his birthday that would that would be co-existent to be in a synagogue,

02:09:45.620 - 02:09:53.620

saying his prayers. -What time you gonna finish, Tramp? -That was done at service. -Just call me, OK?

02:09:53.620 - 02:10:08.620

-So forth, but it was Russian who couldn't. And that was duly communicated to the Russian family, the Jewish community in that town. And so did the Russian Embassy in Moscow.

02:10:08.620 - 02:10:23.500

And you have to decide, now I'm going to ask, you have to decide amongst yourselves whether, not just you as individuals, but whether your church, in its wider sense,

02:10:23.500 - 02:10:30.420

is doing enough. And if you don't think they're doing enough, you have to ask some very certain questions as you are.

02:10:30.420 - 02:10:44.820

Because, as Michael does, when we discussed this on the phone, and I sought his guidance to how a non-Christian could handle his business with Russia and what I wanted to do to help in any way I could

02:10:44.820 - 02:10:57.620

as a local member of parliament. I wrote to 34 or 35 Roman gentlemen in my constituency and only Roman Jackson was here this morning and one other was here.

02:10:57.620 - 02:11:14.220

Good luck. I say that with real sadness, but that is not something I'm going to react as a Catholic. It would be quite wrong of me to be expecting to do more than that.

02:11:14.220 - 02:11:27.020

You must ask that of the churches, that question yourself, and I hope you do that, and I hope your churches do a lot more than they are doing now

02:11:27.020 - 02:11:43.700

for the right of the people in the world. Is that answer your question? Q: Yes, but it poses the question of trying to fulfil the frustration. Q: We can have frustration.

02:11:43.700 - 02:11:59.580

Q: Michael Kempner, can I ask you to knock it out of the chair? Q: No, I share his frustration. It has taken a very long time to make any sort of impression at all, and it is also sadly true to say that even in this country

02:11:59.580 - 02:12:13.300

where the press is so well informed, and where, for example, our church press in Haringey Park or whatever we're referring to, nevertheless, Christian leaders do not speak out with a unity of voice

02:12:13.300 - 02:12:27.460

on what to me is an absolutely clear-cut issue that Jewish leaders speak out. If you hear Jewish community speak, it is clear support for persecuting

02:12:27.460 - 02:12:38.700

Jewish community and so on. and you do not get such a clear voice coming from the Christian community. That is what Preston College is daily striving to achieve.

02:12:38.700 - 02:12:54.300

We're not going to do it all ourselves. In fact, we're only an agent of all this. The change must come by a world public opinion, and that world public opinion is not being well-formed

02:12:54.300 - 02:13:03.740

through Christian communities. - Thank you, Michael. That brings me to one o'clock, probably is a suitable point for end of session.

02:13:03.740 - 02:13:14.020

Thank Roland for his contribution and to all of you for your questions. I'll ask you in the light of the last question to me, whether you would all sign this petition

02:13:14.020 - 02:13:22.940

for me to send to the Amnesty. And to say that the most important session of the day is about to begin, it says on my program, bar over.

02:13:22.940 - 02:13:32.560

(audience laughing) Thank you. [APPLAUSE] (audience applauding)

02:13:32.560 - 02:13:43.220

(audience applauding) [crowd noise] [crowd noise] [CHATTER]

02:13:43.220 - 02:13:53.980

[crowd noise] (indistinct chatter) (crowd murmuring) (crowd chattering)

02:13:53.980 - 02:14:05.420

(crowd murmuring) (crowd murmuring) (crowd chattering) (crowd murmuring)

02:14:05.420 - 02:14:16.340

(crowd murmuring) (crowd chattering) [crowd noise] (audience chattering)

02:14:16.340 - 02:14:31.840

[chatter] [CHATTER] [inaudible] [inaudible]

02:14:32.840 - 02:15:14.040

[inaudible] [inaudible] and the sign came down and it had to be renamed again. [ Background noise ]

02:15:14.040 - 02:15:28.040

[inaudible] [crowd noise] [inaudible] Yes, some yachts.

02:15:28.040 - 02:15:47.040

[inaudible] [inaudible] The National Gallery [inaudible]

02:15:47.040 - 02:16:07.040

[unclear dialogue] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible]

02:16:07.040 - 02:16:24.040

[inaudible] The Royal Library The National Gallery World Fair Sohila

02:16:24.040 - 02:16:43.040

The National Gallery [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible]

02:16:43.040 - 02:17:00.040

[inaudible] The Royal Academy of Arts The National Gallery The National Gallery

02:17:00.040 - 02:17:16.040

The Royal Academy of Arts - modern art gallery The Royal Library of London Royal Academy of Arts The National Gallery

02:17:16.040 - 02:17:39.040

[inaudible] So, we're going to walk through the main entrance, which is the main entrance to the B&B which is the main entrance to the B&B, which is the main entrance to the B&B, which is the main entrance to the B&B, which is the main entrance to the B&B,

02:17:39.040 - 02:17:59.040

which is the main entrance to the B&B, which is the main entrance to the B&B, which is the main entrance to the B&B, which is the main entrance to the B&B, [inaudible] [inaudible]

02:17:59.040 - 02:18:20.040

[inaudible] [ Background noise ] [inaudible] [crowd noise]

02:18:20.040 - 02:18:35.040

[crowd noise] [ Background noise ] [crowd noise] [crowd noise]

02:18:35.040 - 02:18:43.040

[crowd noise] [crowd noise] [crowd noise] [crowd noise]

02:18:43.040 - 02:18:57.040

[crowd noise] [crowd noise] The Royal Academy of Arts and Sciences - a university of arts and sciences The Royal Library

02:18:57.040 - 02:19:20.040

[ Background noise ] [ Background noise ] [indistinct chatter] [LAUGHTER]

02:19:20.040 - 02:19:39.040

[INDISTINCT CHATTER] [unclear audio] [unclear audio] [unclear audio]

02:19:39.040 - 02:19:55.040

The Royal Academy of Arts - the world's largest art gallery The National Gallery of London The Royal Academy of Arts [Indistinct chatter]

02:19:55.040 - 02:20:13.040

[unclear audio] The Royal Academy of Arts - modern arts and crafts The National Gallery [inaudible]

02:20:13.040 - 02:20:30.040

[inaudible] [Indistinct chatter] [Indistinct chatter] [Indistinct chatter]

02:20:30.040 - 02:21:24.360

[Indistinct chatter] [inaudible] ladies and gentlemen would you just one minute all those guests and delegates to the conference who have a pink ticket please take your seat at the table the

02:21:24.360 - 02:21:42.440

ladies will serve you the Ukrainian lunch thank you We're now entering the Royal Cemetery, which is a large, grand, and magnificent building. Sorry, sir. The Royal Academy of Arts

02:21:43.440 - 02:21:58.440

Credits The Royal Academy of Arts [crowd noise] [inaudible]

02:21:58.440 - 02:22:15.760

[ Background noise ] (audience chattering) (audience chattering) [crowd noise]

02:22:15.760 - 02:23:06.740

[crowd noise] [INAUDIBLE] [ Background noise ] [ Background noise ]

02:23:06.740 - 02:23:22.740

The National Gallery There are many shops and restaurants here, but I'm not going to show you all of them. [crowd noise] The Royal Library

02:23:22.740 - 02:23:32.820

[crowd noise] [crowd noise] (indistinct chatter) (people chattering)

02:23:32.820 - 02:23:44.060

(indistinct chatter) [chatter] (indistinct chatter) (indistinct chatter)

02:23:44.060 - 02:24:03.820

(crowd chattering) (crowd chattering) (speaking in foreign language) [indistinct chatter]

02:24:03.820 - 02:25:14.780

[crowd noise] [ Background noise ] [ Background noise ] [ Background noise ]

02:25:14.780 - 02:25:27.420

(audience chattering) (audience chattering) (audience chattering) (audience chattering)

02:25:27.420 - 02:25:37.740

(audience chattering) (audience chattering) [crowd noise] [crowd noise]

02:25:37.740 - 02:25:51.740

[inaudible] [inaudible] [crowd noise] [crowd noise]

02:25:51.740 - 02:26:07.740

[crowd noise] [crowd noise] [Crowd noise] [Street noise]

02:26:07.740 - 02:26:25.220

the newly built station building, the Royal College of Arts and Sciences. (people chattering) [inaudible] [CHATTER]

02:26:25.220 - 02:26:41.360

[CHATTER] (audience chattering) [inaudible] [inaudible]

02:26:41.360 - 02:26:54.000

(audience chattering) (audience chattering) (audience chattering) (audience chattering)

02:26:54.000 - 02:27:09.160

[inaudible] (audience chattering) [inaudible] [crowd noise]

02:27:09.160 - 02:27:20.160

[crowd noise] [crowd noise] [inaudible] [crowd noise]

02:27:20.160 - 02:27:31.160

[crowd noise] [crowd noise] [crowd noise] [inaudible]

02:27:31.160 - 02:27:51.160

[INAUDIBLE] [CHATTER] [crowd noise] [inaudible]

02:27:51.160 - 02:28:08.160

[inaudible] [inaudible] [crowd noise] [inaudible]

02:28:08.160 - 02:28:58.880

[crowd noise] [SILENCE] Right, ladies and gentlemen, just before we ask Jane Ellis to give us the main address in the afternoon, there are one or two minor items of business.

02:28:58.880 - 02:29:32.880

I think first of all I should, on everyone's behalf, welcome any new folk who have just come for the afternoon session. So welcome to this Pest and Regional Conference. Vitaly Bas. And also I think those of us who have just enjoyed that marvellous Ukrainian lunch, we should thank the ladies for that lunch. So, "Duje, d'ja puju pan'ya!" Thank you ladies.

02:29:39.880 - 02:30:05.880

Now I want to ask my wife Dorothy just to say a few words about certain administrative matters. I'm very pleased to be here, very excited today to have so many people gathered together. Sorry I'm not speaking in the best of my ability. We would be delighted to have you from so many different places.

02:30:05.880 - 02:30:34.880

I wish we could find out exactly where you all come from, but I know a number that come from other support groups. In particular, if there are people who wish to keep in contact with the Nottingham support group, we very much want to know who you are. And so I'm going to circulate yet more sheets of paper for you to find. We've done a lot of finding up to date, but we'd be very grateful to have your names and addresses on these sheets of paper which we will send round

02:30:34.880 - 02:30:58.880

in order to keep in touch with you about our forthcoming events. Also, another internal matter is that after this meeting, in the tea break, we intend to have a very short general meeting in order to elect a new committee. It shouldn't take very long, but for all those who are members and supporters,

02:30:58.880 - 02:31:16.760

and would-be members, and people who just want to know about what we've been doing what we like to do, you're most welcome to come to that British Annual General Meeting. It is only our second one. And that will be held upstairs, I'll have to go out the back there and up the stairs.

02:31:16.760 - 02:31:37.280

But you'll find some of the college in the back. Also I'd just like to remind you about the sponsor forms for the Chester marathon. If you belong to a group that you could get support for it, please don't forget to take sheets of paper to help Keston and I find that should substantially help with their

02:31:37.280 - 02:32:08.280

building process. So thank you very much. Well ladies and gentlemen, my duties are brief, namely now to introduce our main speaker this this afternoon, Jane Ellis, who is a long-serving member of the staff of Keston College and an author. Indeed, her book is on the bookstall there, a major book on the Orthodox Church.

02:32:08.280 - 02:32:34.280

And without more ado, I will ask Jane Ellis to talk to us about the Orthodox Church on Eve of the Millennium. Jane Ellis. [applause] I'm sure that all of you enjoyed that delicious, traditional Ukrainian lunch just as much as I did.

02:32:34.280 - 02:32:54.280

My only worry now is that after it you'll all be wanting a traditional Ukrainian siesta. [laughter] And I did say to someone over lunch that perhaps I would just talk in a very monotonous voice for about ten minutes, after which I would be able to leave the platform without anybody noticing.

02:32:54.280 - 02:33:27.280

But it would be a pity to come all the way from London just to do that. So I am in fact going to try to keep your interest alive on the subject of the Orthodox Church today in the Soviet Union. Now, my own interest in the Orthodox Church in the Soviet Union arose really in 1974 and for a few years thereafter, when I first visited Moscow and Leningrad and once Kiev, but mainly Moscow, and met Orthodox Christians there.

02:33:27.280 - 02:33:58.280

Before that I don't think I met hardly any Orthodox Christians at all, and I knew very little about Orthodoxy. I had grown up, like I suppose most young Christians in this country, without any contact with the Orthodox Church, and knowing very little of what its beliefs were and what it stood for. I found out a bit about the subject, though not very much, while doing a degree in Russian at Birmingham University.

02:33:58.280 - 02:34:22.280

But even at the end of that, I found that I didn't know much about Orthodoxy. And what I did know, I didn't like. I thought, in my ignorance, that it was a ritualistic church, that it belonged to the past, that if it wasn't a dead church, it was likely to become so very soon.

02:34:22.280 - 02:34:42.280

And I was interested in Christianity and the Soviet Union, and the lives of Christians there, and the future that lay before them. But it didn't seem to me that orthodoxy had much to contribute to that. And what changed me was, as I say, going to the Soviet Union, to these cities, and meeting orthodox Christians.

02:34:42.280 - 02:35:00.800

And I had a big surprise. I had originally gone because I had been told that there were people, orthodox Christians, in material need. Prisoners' families, people who'd lost their jobs, and so on. And of course this applied to Baptists and to Catholics too, but there were organisations in the West

02:35:00.800 - 02:35:12.400

who made it their business to help these people. But there was no one, or so I was told, doing anything to be orthodox. And it seemed to me that whatever the differences in our beliefs,

02:35:12.400 - 02:35:23.240

if these people were in need, if there was anything I could do to help, I should try to do it. So I went to meet them to find out what their needs were and how we could help.

02:35:23.240 - 02:35:38.160

but in fact set up an organization called Aid to Russian Christians, which exists primarily to send aid of various kinds, material aid and literature to Orthodox Christians in the Soviet Union. But it wasn't quite as simple as that.

02:35:38.160 - 02:35:55.560

One can't just knock on someone's door and find out what their needs are and then go away again. At least not in Russia, where one's expected to stay for several hours and to eat and drink a great deal. and where the conversation doesn't really get down to serious things

02:35:55.560 - 02:36:10.160

until after two or three or four hours. And I heard that I was meeting not only young people, but there were many young people who had grown up in atheistic families.

02:36:10.160 - 02:36:25.160

Some of them had grown up in communist families. Their parents were party members. They were educated, intelligent people, so it happened These were the people whose names were available and whose addresses were available.

02:36:25.160 - 02:37:07.160

And within the framework of Soviet life, they had had a lot going for them, and they could have looked forward to a reasonable standard of material comfort, a career, and jobs that were, by Soviet standards, reasonably intellectually satisfying. These were the people that the party was grooming to continue the communist system in the future. And I found that these people, in one way or another, had become Christians. And they had to renounce that life of relative comfort once they decided that they had a real faith,

02:37:07.160 - 02:37:31.160

one which they could not keep secret. They were engaged in various kinds of Christian activities, producing Christian literature unofficially, working with young people, running study groups, this kind of thing. Some of them in more public activities, some of them openly said that they were dissidents. They were working on behalf of prisoners in labour camps, sending information about them to the West.

02:37:31.160 - 02:38:05.160

or they were addressing appeals for the rights of various disadvantaged minorities to their government and to foreign organisations and notable people. And these people knew that if they continued with what they were doing, before long they would be in a labour camp. There was no doubt in their minds about it. They had seen it happen to their friends. And I found that these people had come to faith, had come to Christ, and had embarked

02:38:05.160 - 02:38:26.660

upon these rather dangerous activities within the framework of the Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy was in their culture, it was in their history, it was in their roots. And when they abandoned what the party had to offer, and when they abandoned what communism and began to look for something else to make life meaningful,

02:38:26.660 - 02:38:41.660

it was within the orthodox context of Christianity that they found what they were looking for. And it changed their lives, and it motivated them in a way that Marxism and Leninism had never been able to.

02:38:41.660 - 02:38:54.660

And I had to realize that my ideas about orthodoxy, specifically about the Russian Orthodox Church, had been quite wrong. And that whatever problems that church may have had and still has, and they have any,

02:38:54.660 - 02:39:15.660

there was still something there, something real, something deep, some life-changing force that had drawn these 50 young people and transformed their lives. And that was when I started to get interested in the whole subject. Over 10 years ago now, I found out all I could about it.

02:39:15.660 - 02:39:42.540

If you've seen my book on the bookstore, which is not light reading, it's over 500 pages, that gives you some idea of just how interested I did become in this subject, which for me remains fascinating. Now I sense that many of those people whom I met all those years ago and met again on subsequent visits and some of whom became my friends, knew that they were

02:39:42.540 - 02:40:07.100

facing imprisonment. Many were in fact imprisoned or in other cases forced into exile because the government thought that they would, as we were saying this morning, as if the leaders, the most active people were forced into emigration and the movement would lose suddenly its force. So they didn't want to leave their country, their roots,

02:40:07.100 - 02:40:22.100

that they had to as a result of their Christian activities. And now of course, and again this was touched on more than once this morning, change is coming about. We don't yet know how far it will go, we don't know how long it will last,

02:40:22.100 - 02:40:34.100

but we can see that there has been change. Many of those people have been released. Now, some of them released early, before the end of their sentences, and we thank God for that, while not forgetting

02:40:34.100 - 02:40:49.100

that there are nearly 200 that we know of still in prison, let alone those about whom we have no information, still in prison and labour prison. But nonetheless, many have been released.

02:40:49.100 - 02:41:00.100

And so, what are their feelings now? What are their attitudes? Are they ready to take up the struggle again? Or are they just wanting to take things easy,

02:41:00.100 - 02:41:20.980

to enjoy their freedom? could blame them if they did, after a period of many years in a labour camp or even a psychiatric hospital. So there's a sense in which this is a time for hope. And for me, a researcher on the Soviet Union, which I've been for many years, the last year has been a time when

02:41:20.980 - 02:41:52.620

it's been a good and an interesting and an exciting time to be studying the Soviet Union. Because the years before that, from about 1978-1979 onwards, were depressing. There's no other word for it. All the news coming out of the Soviet Union about Christians and about Jews too, for that matter, was bad news. More people were being arrested than before, and they were being given longer sentences, and they were being re-sentenced in the camp before they'd completed the terms to which they were originally sentenced.

02:41:52.620 - 02:42:09.620

And even the Soviet press now officially refers to these years under Breschev as the years of stagnation. And they certainly were that. And it is good now to have good news to report. But, Kerstin, we don't like to be grounded.

02:42:09.620 - 02:42:27.620

People are often eager to do with an organisation that only gives out bad news. And we have been glad to be the organisation, one of the key organisations anyway, that over the last year has been giving out the good news of people coming back to the Gula to rejoin their families.

02:42:27.620 - 02:42:37.620

So, it's a time of hope, we're thinking of cautious hope and for people to look to the future and say, "Well, what is going to happen next for our church, for our country, for our society?

02:42:37.620 - 02:42:50.620

And what can I do, or what can my group do, or what can my church do? How should we react to the new, or newish, circumstances?" because there's much of course which still has not changed.

02:42:50.620 - 02:43:32.620

But there's also a mood I find of uncertainty, of doubt, and in many cases even of cynicism. Among Christians, among Jews, among Muslims, among human rights activists. Some of them are saying, "Well, we'd like to wait and see what's really going to happen." There are others saying, "This is all eye wash. We don't believe it's going to last and we suspect the motive behind it all."

02:43:32.620 - 02:44:01.620

And we've seen it all before anyway, we had the crush shock, we had the fall, and everything was going to change, and society was going to change, and everything was going to be fine, and then down came the iron fist again. And we are not going to risk sticking up our heads above the parapet to say what we think, for fear that sooner or later those heads will all be chopped off quite quickly. But there are, there always are I suppose, a few who will say, "We must seize the moment. It may not last.

02:44:01.620 - 02:44:26.620

We must take the opportunity to stand up and say what it is that we really want." And so we have got some Christians and others writing open letters to Mr Gorbachev saying, "We are glad you've released prisoners, but we want you to release all of them. We are glad that you are introducing gladness, openness, freedom to say what we think, but take it further.

02:44:26.620 - 02:44:52.620

Let religious believers stand up in public and debate with atheists, as they did in the 1920s after the revolution. Why not do that again? And there are those who are prepared to formulate the legal safeguards that they require. Before, Michael mentioned this morning, but only the other day, Konstantin Karchin of the Council for Religious Affairs said there were going to be changes.

02:44:52.620 - 02:45:12.620

Now I personally don't doubt that sometime this year, next year, the law is going to change. There have been rumours about it for a couple of years, they've been getting firmer, I think there will be change. The question is, how much change? Will they just tinker around with the legislation a bit, so that they can say they've changed it?

02:45:12.620 - 02:45:28.380

Or will they really take on board what believers are asking for? Will they really stop atheist education in schools? Will they really let people organise Sunday schools and teaching for young people? Will they really allow the churches to be representative of the courts?

02:45:28.380 - 02:45:51.780

Will they really return the thousands and thousands of churches that have been confiscated? That's the real question. And that's what we've got to look for over the months and perhaps the years to come. Now, the limits on freedom as enshrined in the law have been touched on by Michael Bordeaux this morning.

02:45:51.780 - 02:46:22.780

And it's within that framework that there's room for change. But it's not only the laws which govern what happens in the church in the widest sense. And I mean the church as the body of Christ, the church as the community of all those who acknowledge Christ as their head, not the Soviet definition of a registered church or anybody's definition of a denominational church.

02:46:22.780 - 02:46:47.780

Because while it's absolutely right that on the one hand we should outline a very strict limit within which churches in the Soviet Union have to live, and while it's only right that we should say that believers have been persecuted over decades for their faith and in some cases are still being persecuted and discriminated against, we cannot leave matters

02:46:47.780 - 02:47:11.780

there. We cannot say that that is all there is to be said about the churches in the Soviet Union, because the other side of the picture is the way in which the Holy Spirit has broken through that long path, and broken through those restrictions, and has begun again in the decades, but increasingly more recently,

02:47:11.780 - 02:47:30.980

to draw people to Christ, to draw people into the churches. because nearly all the churches in the Soviet Union are growing, many of them quite considerably. And there are countless stories of people

02:47:30.980 - 02:47:43.680

in all kinds of wonderful ways coming to faith, in ways which one would find it hard to imagine, sometimes hard to believe possible. And this is one of the most exciting things happening

02:47:43.680 - 02:48:20.480

anywhere in the Christian church in this world today, Because again, as Michael mentioned this morning, no other territory, no other regimes, no other systems of belief apart from communist ones, have ever yet in history tried to eradicate all religion. And they have tried very hard, they have tried by massive persecution and terror in the 20s and 30s. And that didn't work, so in the post-war period they have tried very severe religious, very severe, as I say, legal restrictions on the church, combined with continuous persecution and discrimination.

02:48:20.480 - 02:48:49.480

And they have spared no effort to stand up religion. And they have failed. And they recognise this, I think. The authorities recognise this. And they don't know what to do about it. really, when it comes to effective measures to deal with religion. And how can they, when they don't understand the person of the Holy Spirit, the role of the Holy Spirit, the worth of the Holy Spirit, how can you legislate against that?

02:48:49.480 - 02:49:05.480

How can you persecute against that? And this is particularly evident, I think, in the Orthodox Church, certainly in my own personal experience. As I said, I met people growing up in communist families.

02:49:05.480 - 02:49:34.160

According to the ideology, there should have been no room for even a thought about God to enter their minds. The ideology should have taken care of everything and given them a complete explanation for life and for their role in their society. But one hears so many stories. I wonder if any of you have seen or have read the book by Tatiana Gorincheva.

02:49:34.160 - 02:49:48.000

There's some copies on the bookstore there. It's called Talking About God is Dangerous. She was deported from the Soviet Union just before the Olympic Games. And she's now written a book describing her life as a Christian.

02:49:48.000 - 02:50:01.200

She was a philosopher, a very gifted philosopher, at Leningrad University, a student there. and then graduated and taught philosophy. And, as was fashionable at the time,

02:50:01.200 - 02:50:14.960

took up yoga, which was... There was a yoga craze in Leningrad in the 70s. Everybody was interested in yoga. This was the thing to do. And she recalls how one day she was saying her mantra,

02:50:14.960 - 02:50:29.960

as she regularly did. And the mantra that her teacher had given her to say was the Lord's Prayer. And she said it mechanically several times over in the practice of the OD.

02:50:29.960 - 02:50:44.960

Look, it was just words. And all of a sudden she had a flash of revelation, she realised what it all meant. She said it again, it was real to her. And Christ was real to her.

02:50:44.960 - 02:51:10.960

And that's how she came to the faith and became one of the leaders in a Christian discussion group which brought many other intellectuals, artists, writers in Leningrad into the Church. How do you legislate against that? It's impossible. And it's important to keep these two things, the growth and even revival of faith, in mind alongside the persecution.

02:51:10.960 - 02:51:29.960

Because you will find plenty of people who will talk only about persecution, as though all the real Christians are in the Gulag and the others are all, what, compromising stooges, who knows. And then you will find others, particularly those who have just been on a trip, perhaps

02:51:29.960 - 02:51:50.960

for the third time, to the Soviet Union, church leadership, who will tell you all about the packed churches, the young priests, the growth of faith, the preachers who will come back and tell you about the two-hour sermons and say, "I wish I could preach a two-hour sermon I wish my church was as full as the ones that there are in Russia, ignoring the thousands

02:51:50.960 - 02:52:07.960

and thousands of thoughtfully closed churches there. And you have to put the two things together. They are part of the same whole, although should you grasp that, you won't understand what's happening in Russia, what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening in Georgia,

02:52:07.960 - 02:52:29.960

Latvia, or anywhere else in the Soviet Union. And one interesting thing to me, anyway, which I want to mention at this point, I've talked only about the Russian young educated people that I met, because that happens to be my personal experience, as I say, mostly in Moscow and Leningrad.

02:52:29.960 - 02:53:16.960

But talking to people who know Ukrainian and who studied the Ukrainian and know a lot more than I do. I discovered that there did not seem to be a parallel movement, at least not as large a movement, amongst Ukrainian intelligentsia, be they active with regard to Ukrainian national aspirations, Ukrainian literature, the human rights movement or whatever. There doesn't seem to be the same embracing of orthodoxy as is taking place in the larger Russian cities. And it seems to me possible that the reason for this is that there is no church which has been the natural focus for their aspirations and their hopes and their desires.

02:53:17.960 - 02:54:04.460

have a Ukrainian Orthodox Church and it's very difficult for them, whatever their personal beliefs may be, to identify wholeheartedly with a church which, while very strong in Ukraine and with many well-attended Ukrainian churches, nonetheless bears the name 'the Russian Orthodox Church'. And it seems to me that this is a great disadvantage under which Ukrainians turning towards the faith, lay them. They don't have a natural home in the same way that their Russian counterparts do. Now, I used a moment ago the word "revival" in a fairly cautious way.

02:54:04.460 - 02:54:19.140

I prefer to use the word growth, reawakening of faith, revitalisation of faith, because I think revival, which a lot of people do use to describe what's happening in churches in the Soviet Union, is a very frustrating case.

02:54:19.140 - 02:54:28.260

It's too dramatic. It gives the impression of a mass movement, something that's happening more or less overnight. It's not like that.

02:54:28.260 - 02:54:53.260

It's a much slower, gradual, and sometimes very painful process. I think it will go on inexorably, I don't think anything can stop it. But it's not like a dramatic movement sweeping across the country. It began, I think, as long as 20, nearly 30 years ago,

02:54:53.260 - 02:55:30.260

after the death of Stalin at the end of the 50s, and has gained its pace through the 60s and particularly in the 70s. And more and more people are converting to the Baptist Church as well and to the Pentecostal, but also to the Orthodox Church. And this is something which is not only unexpected from the point of view of Marxist-Leninist ideology, which simply has no room within it for admitting that a religious revival of any kind is possible.

02:55:30.260 - 02:55:46.980

So they blame it on the West and organisations like Compton College, which is a certain anti-communist organisation using religion as a cloak to subvert the Soviet people. They have to say that because otherwise they have to admit that it's homegrown and that's ideologically impossible.

02:55:46.980 - 02:56:07.980

So there are a little bit of statistics there. But it's not only something unexpected from the point of view of Marxism-Leninism, it's something also unexpected from the point of view of Russian history and Russian culture within intellectual circles.

02:56:07.980 - 02:56:21.380

Because, again, as Michael touched on this this morning, Over a hundred years ago, the bulk of the intelligentsia turned away from the Orthodox Church, which they regarded as stuck in the past,

02:56:21.380 - 02:56:36.500

uncreated, with no fresh ideas, subservient to Zoroastrianism, and not offering a way forward for the future. And they turned their backs on it, and they looked for other means. They looked principally to the West for their ideas,

02:56:36.500 - 02:56:47.980

and to see what direction their society might develop in. And so the move back to the church now, part of the Russian intelligentsia, the significant part,

02:56:47.980 - 02:57:01.120

is a major change and unexpected development even within their own history. Now, how does all this renaissance, this growth within the Orthodox Church

02:57:01.120 - 02:57:14.540

on the eve of its millennium manifest itself? Well, in quite a variety of ways. I've mentioned discussion groups, study groups. These have mushroomed and grown over the last few years.

02:57:14.540 - 02:57:24.420

Most of them we don't know anything about at all, fairly obvious reasons. Because the one or two about which we do know, about which we've read, about which there's been publicity,

02:57:24.420 - 02:57:35.060

the members of those have been hounded, persecuted by the KGB, served terms in labor camps and psychiatric hospitals. So it's fairly clear that other people involved

02:57:35.060 - 02:57:50.020

such groups would want to keep a very low profile. But we do know that there are many of them meeting. Having been drawn to the church, they go, of course, to worship services. But they don't find that all their questions could be answered there.

02:57:50.020 - 02:58:01.460

The priests are restricted in what they can say. And they have so many questions, so many things they want to know about their new faith. There are highly used books that they can read.

02:58:01.460 - 02:58:19.380

They don't have even the rather vague and perhaps distorted idea of Christianity that people in this country absorb whether they want to or not through school, perhaps through television, perhaps through reading. They ask the most basic questions when you meet them about Christianity

02:58:19.380 - 02:58:35.060

and Christians in other parts of the world. They're eager to learn, but they have limited means of finding out. And so by meeting together they can learn, they can discuss, they can build on another essay, especially when times are difficult.

02:58:35.060 - 02:58:50.060

There is samizdat also. Samizdat meaning literally self-published literature. That's a Russian word which is put on. Samizdat would be in Ukrainian.

02:58:50.060 - 02:59:12.060

But samizdat is almost, not quite, as is the English language now, meaning documents, usually typewritten, sometimes handwritten, which circulate from hand to hand, and which form a means of information which is not censored, it's something fresh, it's something untrammelled, it's something that you don't really craft.

02:59:12.060 - 02:59:38.060

Even now, the craft of which I read every day has changed quite a lot recently, but you still need something that supplements it to get at the truth, and to get at people's real opinions and views about life. You find it in poetry too. The name is Irina Ratoshenskaya, who was finally able to emigrate from the Soviet Union just over a year ago with her husband.

02:59:38.060 - 03:00:04.140

It's well known. And her poetry, which I find very moving, is full of religious imagery and of her very clear faith in God. God, there are countless poets like her expressing their faith in this world. And again, how do you stop poetry? How do you stop, how do you legislate against people expressing their thoughts, their

03:00:04.140 - 03:00:19.100

views and their faith through poetry? In Irina's case, of course, they tried to stop it by locking her up and persecuted her almost to death. But even that, because of Western support, failed.

03:00:19.660 - 03:00:39.260

How do you stop the thousands of other poets expressing their deepest beliefs? We find it in painting, too, in non-conformist art. There are many artists who rebelled against the very narrow confines of socialist realism, trying to express their own feelings, their own views in their art.

03:00:39.260 - 03:00:55.420

And after a good deal of trouble, Kant, again with the help of Western public opinion, succeeded in some measure, not as much as they want, but in some measure, in getting their views, their, their, their, expressed through their paintings to others,

03:00:55.420 - 03:01:13.580

who are able to see them in a limited way at exhibitions. You find a lot of religious imagery, a lot of specifically orthodox imagery in those paintings. Some of those painters are not Christians at all, and their use of crosses or churches or whatever in their paintings

03:01:13.580 - 03:01:35.580

is to express their self-identity as members of their nation, their feelings about their past, the destruction of their culture and their history. And this is something you find a great deal of on the fringes of the Orthodox Church, people for whom their culture is the thing and Orthodoxy is a part of that.

03:01:35.580 - 03:01:59.820

For some of them you can almost say it's their culture that's their religion. But many more who go through that medium, perhaps by reading the works of their own writers of the past, Dostoevsky above all, but there are many others, if they can get hold of these authors, who will lead them into an understanding of Orthodox Christianity and will lead them to faith.

03:01:59.820 - 03:02:18.820

And all this is going on in a very diverse way. It's difficult to sum up, it's difficult to generalise, because after all, the path of any individual to Christ is unique. But one can, in a very general way, say that by many different paths, people are being drawn to the Church, drawn to the faith,

03:02:18.820 - 03:02:47.820

and nothing on this earth can stop it. Now, I don't want to paint too rosy a picture. It's very important not to. It's very easy to say Christianity is gaining ground in the Soviet Union, communism is losing ground, everything's fine, it's a place of time, but there's basically nothing to worry about.

03:02:47.820 - 03:03:12.820

Because even such a wonderful and precious thing as this religious renaissance, religious revitalization within the Soviet Union, can be and has been distorted in a way that means that basically we in the West don't need to worry too much about what is happening there because on the whole things are all right.

03:03:12.820 - 03:03:49.320

We have had people, again the sort of instant experts that Michael was talking about this morning, we didn't use that phrase, but we have a lot of these instant experts, church leaders and others, who go to the Soviet Union for a couple of weeks and talk to a lot of people and official church and state spokesmen, and entertain in lavish hospitality, they make friends and so on, and they come back and they say, as we know, we didn't see any persecution. But they also say, "Why talk about persecution? That's negative. You should talk about the religious revival that's going on. We should be positive.

03:03:49.320 - 03:04:06.320

Forget about the persecution. If there is still any left, it's on the way. It's the religious revival we want to look at. And that's what should cover all sections of the churches in the Soviet Union." And we've now started to get funny facts from Christians in the Soviet Union,

03:04:06.320 - 03:04:22.820

saying, "I'm not just waiting. You're exaggerating. Don't overdo it." "Oh yes, many people are coming to the churches, thank God for that. But don't think that all our problems are over just because of that. Don't forget to pray for us, don't forget to support us and to help us.

03:04:22.820 - 03:04:40.320

We need that as much as ever." And they said in one document, "Remember how long your renaissance in the West took to mature before it could be written with a capital R. So don't think that all our problems are over after ten, fifteen, twenty years

03:04:40.320 - 03:04:59.820

of people coming back into the churches. And the other thing is that although all these people coming into the churches have in common the most basic perceptions about Christ, about their faith, about their church, about love,

03:04:59.820 - 03:05:12.820

they have disagreements, very passionate ones, over the direction of things should develop in the future. They have disagreements over what their church should be doing, over what groups within the church should be doing,

03:05:12.820 - 03:05:27.820

at the moment, to seize the new opportunities that seem to be available, and going on into the future. They have disagreements over the course that they would like their society to take in the future.

03:05:27.820 - 03:05:41.820

They all agree that Marxism-Leninism is not the answer to the future. It's not a subject of debate. It's not interesting to talk about. What's interesting to talk about is what will replace it, and what people should work for as a replacement for it.

03:05:41.820 - 03:05:56.820

And that's where the disagreements come in. And I, on the visits I've had, and many occasions I've had wonderful experiences talking to people, with them telling me what they were doing, explaining their life to me.

03:05:56.820 - 03:06:21.820

I've also read quite fierce arguments when people were discussing these issues in a very passionate and very involved way. It wasn't theoretical, it's their lives, their freedoms that is involved. And they say that if you have three Russians having a discussion about something, there will be four opinions being expressed. And that's certainly true of some of the arguments that I witnessed.

03:06:23.820 - 03:06:46.140

Now, I think it would be easy to view this in a negative light, and people sometimes do, and say, "Oh, we need this, and we can't agree." And if the Soviet regime fell tomorrow, they wouldn't know what to do, and there would be chaos. There may be something in that, but I don't think the picture is quite so bleak. I think in fact it was a very creative development,

03:06:46.140 - 03:06:59.340

that you have different people who can think through and argue through a well thought out scheme as to how things should go in the future and what the future of their country should be.

03:06:59.340 - 03:07:17.260

If you have the ideological, arid, stale, monolith of Marxism-Leninism being opposed by simply another monolithic point of view, with no disagreement, no flexibility, no room for innovation.

03:07:17.260 - 03:07:34.940

That would be a dead man. That would not be a positive situation. It would not offer much for the future. But when you have people who, after spending all their lives being taught one ideology, one view of life, and that only,

03:07:34.940 - 03:07:47.100

And when those people all their lives have had no opportunity, apart from once they've created themselves, to hear other points of view, when after all that you have an intelligence sphere

03:07:47.100 - 03:07:58.420

which is seething with ideas and schemes, some of them there very amazingly, but nonetheless, fresh, innovative ideas, that is a healthy situation, and that's a creative situation,

03:07:58.420 - 03:08:07.020

and that offers wealth for the future. So all these arguments and disagreements don't bother me as much as all that. Good things in it,

03:08:07.020 - 03:08:17.020

regard for the best things of the past, desire to build on the Russian past and not to borrow from the West. But very negative things as well,

03:08:17.020 - 03:08:30.020

a chauvinistic attitude to other nationalities, anti-Semitism. The Church, in fact, has disowned the organisation, even though many of its members claim that they are orthodox.

03:08:30.020 - 03:08:49.740

we have to recognise that Glassmust will throw out bad things as well as good. Even those who say that the KGB encouraged an anti-Semitic organisation, a nationalistic organisation like Panyet, a deliberate attempt to discredit Glassmust,

03:08:49.740 - 03:09:22.740

so that they can say in the future, well look, if you allow people to express their views freely, you get the negative influence within society. That could even be an argument in the future if anyone wants to use it for cracking down again on Glassmere. Let's hope not. Now, none of this ferment of debate and discussion finds the slightest echo in official church circles.

03:09:22.740 - 03:10:01.740

The image of itself which the Orthodox Church, and for that matter the other official religious bodies in the Soviet Union, present to the world is of a church where everybody thinks the same, which happens to coincide with what the Soviet government thinks, on every issue. And so you have a really very extensive context now between churches all around the world and the Russian Orthodox Church and the Soviet Union and some of the other churches.

03:10:01.740 - 03:10:27.740

And these have been increasing ever since the post-war period. It's a deliberate settlement policy. One of the prices which the Church pays for having any open, above-ground institutional church life at all is to support Soviet policy at all points, particularly foreign policy and particularly the peace policy.

03:10:27.740 - 03:10:58.740

And in fact I should really distinguish between the two, because Policy on Peace is Soviet foreign policy by another name. And the Church has to support it. It doesn't just have to keep quiet and not disagree with it, it must actively, and at every possible opportunity, support it. even though in the increasing international context this bland, unanimous voice is the only one that's heard

03:10:58.740 - 03:11:16.740

totally unrepresentative of the Church as a whole. And I find it really very difficult indeed to see how so many people in the West, particularly those who actually meet these people in ecumenical circles,

03:11:16.740 - 03:11:48.740

can possibly believe that this is true, not only because of the fairly obvious coincidence of what the Church is saying and what the Soviet state is saying, which applies to hardly any representative of Western Churches, they don't feel the need to support what their governments are saying, usually rather the contrary, But how anyone from a Western church can believe that all the bishops in the Russian Orthodox Church or any other church all agree with each other all the time is absolutely beyond

03:11:48.740 - 03:12:16.740

me. And therefore, none of the creative ideas, innovative ideas, which Russian Christians, Ukrainian Christians, Yellow Russian Christians and others within the Orthodox Church are up with, find any appeal at all in ecumenical circles.

03:12:16.740 - 03:12:41.740

And then the totality of views, the richness of views, which that church has, are just ignored by international church bodies and in the ecumenical movement at large. And this is a serious lack for the ecumenical movement itself, as well as a threat and a cause of grief to Christians in Russia and Ukraine and elsewhere in the Soviet Union.

03:12:41.740 - 03:13:06.740

They feel they're being ignored by Christians of the West, as well as being stifled by their own government. Now, within this object union, ecumenism between the churches on an official level is limited. There's been very little leisure, after all, during decades of persecution and discrimination,

03:13:06.740 - 03:13:31.740

for theological talk and discussion, for finding out what they have in common. There's a certain amount of that, but it's fair to say that there's been virtually no theological moving together at all between the main group, the Orthodox, the Catholics and the Protestants. But that doesn't mean that there's no bond between them, that there's no real Achaeanism. And where you find that is in the gulag.

03:13:31.740 - 03:13:50.740

Because if you're a prisoner for many years and you're a Baptist, and the prisoner in the next boat to you is a Catholic, it's what you have in common that is important, not what divides you. I mean, it's your witness and your relationship to the other prisoners, the non-Christians,

03:13:50.740 - 03:14:13.740

who are locked up with you for years on end and cannot get away from your Christian witness, So the Gulag is a mission field, and the Gulag is a place where real ecumenism is forged. And that surely has a lesson for all of our churches in the West, and that is what the anti-Gulag movement in the West is depriving itself of.

03:14:13.740 - 03:14:34.740

Because you're told when you talk about prisoners, you're told when you talk about persecution, You're told when you talk about persecution that you are going to make relations worse with the Russian Orthodox Church or with the Soviet Baptist Church. You're told that you're upsetting the ecumenical applecart by bringing in these unpleasant

03:14:34.740 - 03:15:00.760

things instead of concentrating on what's possible, on what's positive, and on trying to work out how we can draw churches closer together. Are we not in danger of ignoring the real humanism that's being forged by those who have their suffering in common, and grasping instead at a rather thin, a rather paltry, a rather stitched together

03:15:00.760 - 03:15:30.000

of humanism, worked out in conferences around the world. So, there is a sense, and I don't want to overstate it, but there is a sense in which the Orthodox Church in the Soviet Union on the eve of this millennium is very seriously divided. Divided in its views over the best staff for the Church to adopt,

03:15:30.000 - 03:15:58.080

both vis-a-vis the authorities and vis-a-vis Christians in other countries, and divided over the role that the Church may be able to play in the country in the future. Everyone, I think, who is a member of that church, agrees that it has always been important in the history, in the culture, in the life of the country, and must go on being so in

03:15:58.080 - 03:16:07.080

the future. But over tactics, there are differences. Now, I don't want to overstate this, I do not think there is serious spiritual or theological division.

03:16:07.080 - 03:16:36.080

I think on the basics of the faith, the assumptions are common. I think in the sense of being part of a community that's led to a terrible persecution, probably more sustained and bitter and brutal persecution than any other church has ever had to endure. So the feeling of being part of a community that survived all that and come through it.

03:16:36.080 - 03:17:00.880

And there isn't a formal ecclesiological division, there hasn't been recently anyway a split in the church in the way that there has amongst the Baptists. So formally there is unity. But as I say, in terms of their view of the future, there are these divisions.

03:17:00.880 - 03:17:21.480

And the Millennium celebration next June promised to be a very splendid and a very moving, a very spiritual occasion. I think there will be wonderful services which those who are present at the will remember all their lives.

03:17:21.480 - 03:17:32.480

And I know from my own experiences worshipping in Orthodox churches in Moscow and Leningrad, Kiev and elsewhere. But it was a tremendous privilege to be there, worshipping with those who believe in it.

03:17:32.480 - 03:17:43.480

And this will be increased a hundredfold, a thousandfold in June. And I know our feeding churches, and again Michael said this morning,

03:17:43.480 - 03:17:54.480

they're not show churches, they're not facade churches. They're real, the worship is real, intense, devout. They're only facade in the sense

03:17:54.480 - 03:18:10.480

that people think it's like that throughout the whole country when it isn't. But one can look around in those churches at people, at older people, and you can see their faces, lines of suffering. You know what they lived through in the '20s and '30s.

03:18:10.480 - 03:18:26.200

You know that they must have spent many years when they thought that they would never go to a church again in their lives. And now over those lines of suffering you can, or through those lands of suffering, you can see the joy coming through,

03:18:26.200 - 03:18:43.640

that they have a church that they can go to week by week, day by day, in some cases. And it's a very moving experience to join with them. And I, for one, and many other Christians around the world, next June, will be joining in prayer and in joy and in thanksgiving

03:18:43.640 - 03:19:03.880

with those believers as they celebrate their thousand years of Christianity. But the celebrations are not going to be very extensive, perhaps a month. Why not a whole year of celebration?

03:19:03.880 - 03:19:30.880

The state, I think, is confining the celebration to more or less the minimum that it thinks it can get away with. In the last year or so there have been some signs of that broadening out from the original plan from the millennium, which was probably began to be worked out about 1983 or 1984. We still have to remember all those hundreds of thousands of Christians

03:19:30.880 - 03:19:50.880

who won't be able to get to a church for the Millennium Celebration unless they travel hundreds of miles to get there. We still have to remember all those who will regret the rather misleading impression of their church church that will be given to foreign visitors who attend.

03:19:50.880 - 03:20:13.880

And many Christians throughout the country know that the authorities will use the Millennium Celebration as this wonderful occasion for them, deliberately, as a means of propaganda about the supposed freedom of religion in the Soviet Union. Let's not forget to pray with them and to sorrow with them that their church is still

03:20:13.880 - 03:20:36.380

I still not, despite recent changes, anything like completely free. Because still, the bishops, whatever they may think in their hearts of hearts, and I think the bishops all have very different views about things, I don't think they are as homogenous as we often take them to be,

03:20:36.380 - 03:20:53.180

but whatever they really think, they're still not free to speak out. And it's the lay people, the lay people who are willing to run the risk, who have to shoulder that burden and who have to articulate what they are feeling, what the soul of their church is experiencing.

03:20:53.180 - 03:21:16.680

That still continues to be the case. But I found among the people that I met that their hopes were not limited, their vision was not limited by the appalling difficulties under which they have to live. Even when they lose their jobs, even when they have a menial job on which it's hard to support a family,

03:21:16.680 - 03:21:36.600

even when a bright student is thrown out of university because they make no secret of their faith, even when they're interrogated by the KGB and otherwise discriminated against, their vision for the future of their country is not dimmed. They think big, these people.

03:21:36.600 - 03:21:50.240

The orthodox at times talk about the Christianization of the whole of their country. They don't use the word evangelism or proselytization that we might use. The word they use in Russian is Christianization.

03:21:50.240 - 03:22:08.560

They have a vision of their country, the country which make up the Soviet Union, being Christianized so that Christian values form the basis of their future lives. Now what vision must that take? It's hard enough to imagine that in Britain, isn't it?

03:22:08.560 - 03:22:33.960

With all the freedoms that we have, with all the opportunities that they have. And yet, they do. This is how they look to the future. They are not discouraged. Vladimir Porosh was a young Christian who came to the faith after a series of terrible psychological and intellectual struggles. And again, that's Tatyana Goracheva, whom I mentioned earlier, got very involved in

03:22:33.960 - 03:22:52.960

one of the Christian discussion groups that drew in many others, and brought them to the faith. But he was arrested and sent to labour camp, and he's free again now. And at his trial, the judge said to him, "What is it that you want, you people?"

03:22:52.960 - 03:23:08.560

And he said, "We want the whole world." "What? What do you want?" "I want the whole world." Imagine coming decades of persecution,

03:23:08.560 - 03:23:20.560

you'd expect them to say, "Well, I hope you can cling on until the end of my lifetime, keep a few open churches and perhaps open one or two more." Oh no, they'll have a much larger vision than that.

03:23:22.560 - 03:23:49.560

Now, I began by saying that this could be a time of hope, a time of cautioned hope. When I first went to the Soviet Union in the seventies, that really was a time of hope. The dissent movement in its very broadest sense, the non-conformist movement, the movement of people who thought for themselves, instead of thinking what they were told to think,

03:23:49.560 - 03:24:20.560

was at its height. Many people were working in different ways of freedom of expression, be it freedom to publish more over the literature, publish their views more over the literature, officially published literature, be it people fighting for the rights of Jews to emigrate or of Germans to emigrate, be it for those working for greater human rights, whatever it was, it was a time of hope, it was a time of action. And I met a lot of different people, and they really thought that things could change.

03:24:20.560 - 03:24:36.560

For the first time in Soviet history, they thought that things could really change. Oh, they knew they'd have to pay for it, they knew they'd have to go to labour camps. It was worth it, if things changed. And they placed a lot of hopes upon the West, upon Westerners.

03:24:36.560 - 03:24:53.560

Governments and others. And the Christians, the Orthodox Christians that I met, faced a lot of hope upon Western Christians and Western Churches. They thought if we knew what their lives were like, we would help them.

03:24:53.560 - 03:25:14.560

They thought if they got out the truth about their situation to us, the Western Churches would respond in a way that the Soviet authorities would have to take account of. And as I went back and forth, I went for ten times altogether before they stopped giving me visas, I found their hopes beginning to be shaken.

03:25:14.560 - 03:25:31.560

And they were saying to me, "Why aren't Western Christians responding to our appeals? Why aren't they doing it all?" And I tried to explain, you know, "Well, not everybody in the West quite understands your position, and some of them believe the official church leaders that you have here."

03:25:31.560 - 03:25:54.560

And they said, "Why? How can anyone believe them? Surely they can understand our situation." And I tried to encourage them, I'd say, "Well, you know, in Parliament, one or two people are showing interest now," which they didn't do before. In Congress, in the USA, we've heard some encouraging noises. And I tried to encourage them and cheer them up. But even as I was doing it, I could see the hope faded from their eyes.

03:25:54.560 - 03:26:15.560

And the lack of support, the lack of sufficient support in town in the West was, I think, one of the reasons why from 1978 onwards, the Soviet authorities thought that they could crush the dissent movement. And they deliberately decided to crush it by arresting all the leading activists and giving a very long sentence to them, to all the test interpreters they did crush it.

03:26:15.560 - 03:26:48.560

So, let us hope and let us pray that their hopes of Christians in the Orthodox Church on the eve of this momentous occasion, Christians in the other churches too, will not be disappointed again. Roman said this morning she always found it very difficult to ask for money. I don't find it difficult at all because I have looked people in the eye.

03:26:48.560 - 03:27:12.560

In Moscow, in Leningrad, I have looked people in the eye who knew that within six months they would be in labour camp. And I had to say to them, "We hear what you are asking us to do at Kenton College to help you. And we can't do it because we haven't got the money." And that is something that I will never want to have to do again.

03:27:12.560 - 03:27:29.560

Because I felt ashamed. We talked about our response this morning in comparison with the Jews. I've got to show you something too, I expect many of you did too. Let us not let that happen again.

03:27:29.560 - 03:28:00.560

And let us keep the Orthodox Church, the other churches of our country, in the Soviet Union, in our thoughts, in our prayers, in our active concern, after the Millennium Celebration. After the spotlight fades from the scene, and the international church leaders go on to some other celebration, in some other country, because that is when we will really find out what the future holds

03:28:00.560 - 03:28:35.560

for Christians in the Soviet Union. [Applause] Well, ladies and gentlemen, I have no need to point out that that was a profound and moving address from Jane Ellis, and one that I'm sure touched us all.

03:28:35.560 - 03:28:56.560

There is time for some questions, and while you are perhaps gathering your thoughts, maybe I might use the Chairman's privilege to ask the first one. And the question I would like to ask is indeed about the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Because, Jane, you made some very interesting points about it.

03:28:56.560 - 03:29:24.060

You said that in contrast to Russia, where the intellectuals are going back to Orthodox Christianity, they feel attracted to it, drawn to it, you say this is happening less in the Soviet Union, in Ukraine, for the reason that it is tainted with Russia, because it's the Russian Orthodox Church,

03:29:24.060 - 03:29:35.820

not the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. And the question I wanted to ask is this, do you think that with the millennial celebrations, especially those in Kiev,

03:29:35.820 - 03:29:53.300

where Ukrainians will again think of the foundation of their church a thousand years ago, beginnings of Christianity a thousand years ago, that that might be the stimulus to a rebirth

03:29:53.300 - 03:30:06.740

of Ukrainian intellectual interest in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Do you see that as a possible stimulus to a renewed Ukrainian interest?

03:30:11.380 - 03:30:28.380

I think it could very well be. It's odd, isn't it, because anniversaries of this kind are... There's very often a sort of artificiality about them. Nobody actually knows for certain that the baptism of Bruns was in 980.

03:30:28.380 - 03:30:51.380

The chronicles are unclear. It could well have been in 989. And there were Christians in the region before that anyway. But nonetheless, the celebration by a group, a large group of people of an event of this kind, does make people think afresh and does make them look to the past to see what survives

03:30:51.380 - 03:31:15.380

of the past or what can be resurrected from the past. So I think this could very well happen, but will nonetheless be bedevilled by the lack the lack of a form of expression, the lack of a church, which could be the focus of existing aspirations,

03:31:15.380 - 03:31:30.380

as well as perhaps newly awakened aspirations. And that, again, Michael, I think, answered a similar question this morning. It does depend on whether the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, as well as the Ukrainian Catholic Church,

03:31:30.380 - 03:31:59.180

might be able to be legalised. But I suppose we might perhaps see the growth of informal groups, like the ones I'm describing in Moscow and Leningrad, and indeed other cities, but only in Moscow and Leningrad, but we have a certain amount of information about them. that, but that might well happen. I think people who are engaged in preserving, because that's what it amounts to, Ukrainian culture, and preserving and continuing to create the Ukrainian literature,

03:31:59.180 - 03:32:14.860

and it might well be that they would take on board the heritage of Ukrainian orthodoxy have to offer let us hope so. Q. Thank you. Q. Mr. Kennedy, can I ask a question?

03:32:14.860 - 03:32:23.380

K. Sorry. Q. You both have a question. Q. My question is on that list, and I must say it's been very wonderful listening today,

03:32:23.380 - 03:32:35.940

I'm very honoured to be here. It's a two-pronged question, isn't it, sir? One is, is it not true, as I understand it, from listening and from the information I have gathered over a few years,

03:32:35.940 - 03:33:03.460

that the Soviet principle, or lack of principle, of enforcing the dispersal of people, tending for say Russians, as may be regarded as Russians as opposed to Ukrainians, being infiltrated into and watering down the body of the real Ukrainians, may I say that respectfully, and the Ukrainians themselves being dispersed in the greater extent of the Soviet Union,

03:33:03.460 - 03:33:15.580

in religious terms that are rather hurtful to me, and I suppose to all of us when we talk of Siberia, we always think of something rather horrible. But even as far as I'm concerned,

03:33:15.580 - 03:33:28.660

could that not well be such that when we say the established church of the Ukraine has been deliberately watered down in effect from atheistic principle, or lack of it,

03:33:28.660 - 03:33:36.940

which has enforced that watering down weakness in the stoutest church. I've come to this if I may, 'cause I think you could probably do it.

03:33:36.940 - 03:33:46.820

Looking back, you did mention, well, in the early 10th century, when they had a very militant dictator, and into that militant dictatorship came,

03:33:46.820 - 03:33:57.460

I believe they were called the Byzantine missions. From what source they came, there were several sources, I honestly don't know. I would ask, the sign of the knowledge of that,

03:33:57.460 - 03:34:08.340

in that sense of you say, looking back and taking knowledge and comfort and a source of inspiration to make it real and vital. And I said that very long ago,

03:34:08.340 - 03:34:16.380

I think it's a very important thing to say. - Before you answer, Jay, perhaps we should repeat the question so that people can hear it.

03:34:16.380 - 03:34:33.300

First was about the dispersal of nationalities around the Soviet Union, and this warping down the national entity of Ukraine. perspective was about a parallel between by then time missionaries in the early 10th century and what might happen today.

03:34:33.300 - 03:35:12.300

Yes, the dilution of Ukrainian and other national groups by Russians in the Soviet Union is a deliberate policy. Russians are being moved into non-matter and have been, I suppose, in the post-war period really. So for 40 years, Russians have been deliberately moved in to Ukraine, to the Baltic, and to Soviet Central Asia. It seems to me actually that the Baltic countries, all three of them, have probably suffered most from this simply by being smaller, by having smaller populations.

03:35:12.300 - 03:35:50.300

And the use of Russian as an official language in many parts of everyday life as opposed to the local language, which was mentioned this morning, is of course an affront to many. It is, in a sense, there's nothing especially communist about it. It's what all empires do. And this is an aspect of empire rather than an aspect of communism. But it is a deliberate policy. The moving of non-nationality to other areas is less marked today, as far as I know.

03:35:50.300 - 03:36:08.300

I don't tend to be an expert on this. But most of the deportation of nationalities, of course, took place after the war ended Stalin. When, again, from the Baltic countries, which I think suffered most by virtually the full population, they were moved to Soviet Central Asia and Siberia.

03:36:08.300 - 03:36:33.500

were in Ukraine. This happened, Crimea and Tatar being another region I'm important. Now this doesn't happen so much now, it doesn't certainly happen in a forcible way. There is a need to attract labor to Siberia from all parts of the Soviet Union because of the need to exploit natural resources. This is done by

03:36:33.500 - 03:36:55.540

very high wages and probably citizens of all nationalities may choose whether or not to respond to that. So that's out of it to the melting pot factor, but it is all quite deliberate. I'm not sure if they understood the question about the dynamic. Just, well, going back to the 10th century, when,

03:36:55.540 - 03:37:04.940

may I say, I understand this, and I'm obviously one of your professional advisors, but I'm not on the fact that, was it not Lithuania then,

03:37:04.940 - 03:37:14.620

and the people as such, that really began to emerge in that period, when that decade came in. And through his, or during his dictatorship,

03:37:14.620 - 03:37:29.260

also coincidentally with that, or whatever, were Weissenstein musicians, from which source I would, as a literate, like to know, and their influence, what is it now, and could they not take inspiration from looking back

03:37:29.260 - 03:37:51.180

to reinforce their inspirational movement now? Well, I think when they look back to what happened in the 10th century, I think it probably is a source of some inspiration to the people who, to Christians who derive their origins from the events of that time.

03:37:51.180 - 03:38:17.180

It wasn't in fact so much missionaries from Byzantium. That was more the case in Bulgaria and other areas round about where, of course, we had the great educators of the Slavs, or illuminators of the Slavs, Cyril and Bodeas, who did come from Byzantium, Britain, the Christian faith. And indeed it was Cyril, the divisor of the present-day Russian alphabet, who gave his name to it as the Cyrillic alphabet.

03:38:17.180 - 03:38:48.180

But Christianity came to Kiev en route as a result of the decision by the ruler, Prince Medina of Olympia, to Christianize his nation and to baptize his people. And certainly the influence from Byzantium, the teaching from Byzantium, was strong. But then again, as Michael Bordeaux was mentioning this morning, there followed a period of centuries when the Church was cut off from the West. But traditionally, it's not as strong as it once was for these.

03:38:48.180 - 03:39:02.180

- Mr. Rathbone. - We've had a small part here of ordinary day schools, particularly in those that are spent time in the area, but I would like to raise a question on the high-rise,

03:39:02.180 - 03:39:14.340

the leadership of one of the national research. They always seem to be apologetic about what we are doing. Now, I've never heard anybody of them spoke to the temple normally,

03:39:14.340 - 03:39:22.500

that he was a member of the temple, so he was a religious believer. And in fact, what they say, that there is no persecution in the city of,

03:39:22.500 - 03:39:31.740

that there is no persecution in the city of London. And on the other hand, the French Church, is very hostile to the older church, which has no experience,

03:39:31.740 - 03:39:42.460

Catholic Church in the region of Oslo. And the Russian Orthodox Church, or the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church, (speaking off mic)

03:39:42.460 - 03:39:57.060

(speaking off mic) What was the question, I mean, is the thinking of ordinary action (speaking off mic)

03:39:57.060 - 03:40:07.100

- Okay, perhaps we should repeat the question. Mr. Randolph, you've been asking about the leadership of the Orthodox Church. Give this a reburn amongst some of these

03:40:07.100 - 03:40:25.300

of the ordinary members of the Russian Orthodox Church. does that really affect any of the leaders, or are all the leaders simply serving the faith? Working out what Russian Orthodox church leaders really mean

03:40:25.300 - 03:40:39.140

when they open their mouths and speak about their church is a fine art. Complicated by the fact that, as I said earlier, they do generally disagree with each other sometimes

03:40:39.140 - 03:40:54.500

and have different views, respect for anybody, people either inside or outside the church. There are some who probably tell lies and don't think quite badly of them, I think it's as simple as that.

03:40:54.500 - 03:41:15.220

There are others who will make fine calculations and say, "We don't want to tell lies, but if that's the price of keeping our church with a limited amount of freedom, so that so that there are churches in the faithful to come to the world where we can minister to them, then we don't like it but we are prepared to do it.

03:41:15.220 - 03:41:38.300

But I think there's also another element which is quite often overlooked in the West. You see, I think a lot of, not so much, well, yes, even today, but more so in the past, the average Soviet reader reading a newspaper doesn't look for what's there, He looks for what's not there, literally reading between the lines.

03:41:38.300 - 03:41:55.300

And they learn to talk in this way. It's a horrific thing, actually, that the people's minds have to work in this convoluted way. It's one of the less obvious aspects of their confusion. But they get used to talking in this way,

03:41:55.300 - 03:42:17.300

and they expect us to be able to understand what they really mean. Now, a Soviet bishop might well say, well-fiction himself, that if he gets up and says something really outrageous in the West, like, "There is freedom of religion in my country," that he says patiently observed that no one will believe him and everyone will understand why

03:42:17.300 - 03:42:30.300

he's saying it. In other words, that he's saying it only because he's obliged to. And I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with the thing, there is all sophistication about what's going on in the West.

03:42:30.300 - 03:42:45.300

But I think there was a time when they may have thought that, and when they were genuinely appalled, some of them, when people, when Christians in the West took a face value to their statements. Now, on... you asked about the use of Ukrainian Catholics.

03:42:45.300 - 03:43:06.020

Now, this is a bit more complicated. The church first men do have to say what they say about Ukrainian Catholics, which is basically that the reabsorption, as they call it, of Ukrainian Catholics into the Russian Orthodox Church in 1946 was a good thing and a proper thing and a right thing.

03:43:06.020 - 03:43:46.260

The state wanted to say that because the reabsorption, from their point of view, of Catholics into the Russian Orthodox Church was one of the promises to move against Ukrainian nationalism at that time. But there are also many Russians, perhaps even most Russian Orthodox, who genuinely think that the right place for Ukrainian Catholics is within the Russian Orthodox Church, because they view them simply as lapsed Orthodox. In the 16th century, Ukrainian Orthodox were won over to the Catholic faith and to loyalty to the Pope and to the Vatican by Jesuits and perhaps other missionaries.

03:43:46.260 - 03:44:04.260

And from the point of view of many Orthodox, this was a big mistake, which is now, three centuries later, being put right. And it's probably unique, it's probably the only thing about the Prussian Orthodox leaders in the Soviet state genuinely agree.

03:44:04.260 - 03:44:20.740

Q. Do you think that there can be genuine freedom for the Church under a Soviet system, I suppose, with mere legality, without the Soviet system seeing to be itself? Q. No.

03:44:20.740 - 03:44:27.100

Q. Yes. Q. I'm sure you're interested in that one fairly. Q. But if everything is more or less, can there be genuine freedom of the Church,

03:44:27.100 - 03:44:40.660

as opposed to legality, in a Soviet system, in a common system, without system? Q. I doubt it very much. Certainly the legal boundaries of freedom

03:44:40.660 - 03:44:57.940

could be extended very considerably. Whether everyone would consider that freedom of religion is open to debate, probably some would, some wouldn't. But it's all so speculative because the Soviet system would have to change so much

03:44:57.940 - 03:45:10.020

that it would be debatable whether it was in fact a communist system or a Soviet system any longer. And of course, it is the first communist regime, first coming state in the world,

03:45:10.020 - 03:45:26.020

there are no precedents to be followed. So, one can't really look very far ahead before the possible option starts branching off in an all-conscious direction.

03:45:26.020 - 03:45:38.340

Yes, yes. Q1. Whilst accounting for personal experiences, I have also been quite thrilled to have had someone look at it but revealed to me Ukrainians.

03:45:38.340 - 03:45:53.060

These are Ukrainians that have come over to the West, and these are still the elite of Ukrainian society. These are singers, dancers, sports personalities, people who are tried and trusted members of, shall we say,

03:45:53.060 - 03:46:04.340

Ukrainian society, those are the people of common sense. And it is possible to get past what they've got, the regime, or the KGB, the ARP. It is possible to get to talk to them privately.

03:46:04.340 - 03:46:16.620

And after a somewhat attractive conversation, and after you've built up a relationship with the church, you can obviously ask them about certain experiences and what they've seen and how it's happened in the prayer.

03:46:16.620 - 03:46:29.620

And in some ways, I was very heartened, as you probably were, to hear some of their experiences or some of their views on religious matters. So for instance, on the question of,

03:46:29.620 - 03:46:40.140

do you sing Christian carols, the story was, Yes, we tried 12 years ago. We organized a small group. We put it in the Christmas tree.

03:46:40.140 - 03:46:52.020

And on Ukrainian Christmas Day, we sang some carols. We were arrested. We were severely reprimanded. We were told never to do this again.

03:46:52.020 - 03:47:06.180

And since that time, 12 years ago, that particular group has always traveled in the Soviet Union or in the West. so they never celebrated Christmas Eve or Christmas Day with their particular family.

03:47:06.180 - 03:47:17.220

So the view that was quite hard in England was I managed to get to some of the hotel rooms, as you keep saying, and did find Bibles within their suitcases.

03:47:17.220 - 03:47:29.100

And they did tell the story that they were working at night reading a page from the Bible. On the question of are your kids at that time, the answer was, of course.

03:47:29.100 - 03:47:42.340

But I had to travel 50 miles outside of Zipticon at 3 o'clock during the night and pay $100 to a priest if I planned my child. Well, I'll do it.

03:47:42.340 - 03:47:51.540

On the question of, can you wear a crucifix, the answer was no. I said, yes, I wore a crucifix. I wore it prominently.

03:47:51.540 - 03:48:03.460

But I was again called up by the management of the people who wrote the group and told, If you want to carry on within this group, and this is professional, professional group,

03:48:03.460 - 03:48:15.020

you will have to remove that goose a bit. He didn't remove it, he put it under his shirt, under his shirt. On the question of carol singing,

03:48:15.020 - 03:48:25.020

which is again a traditional religious facility, do they still carol sing in Ukraine? The answer was yes in the villages, but in the towns, no,

03:48:25.020 - 03:48:37.020

[INAUDIBLE] On the question of what do you need, what can I give you, what do you want to take back, that was quite clear. It wasn't James.

03:48:37.020 - 03:48:47.660

It wasn't anything materialistic. They wanted the Ukrainian Christmas carol. They wanted the Ukrainian Easter song, the religious songs which they were in some ways

03:48:47.660 - 03:48:55.420

beginning to be forgotten. They knew of their existence. But we, as people who are aware, we're allowed to sing to these traditions

03:48:55.420 - 03:49:03.740

and maintain these traditions, they wanted to take those back. And I did manage to connect and I know these places have them taken back

03:49:03.740 - 03:49:10.500

and they have these. But again, extremely gut-wracked. All the things they wanted to collect, they just wanted to keep.

03:49:10.500 - 03:49:26.060

They just wanted to keep. There's one really interesting commentary of the spiritual hunger of professional and leading Ukrainians who sometimes come to the West

03:49:26.060 - 03:49:34.100

as sports personalities or musicians and so on. I don't know if there are any people who want to comment about that. Might I have your name, sir?

03:49:34.100 - 03:49:41.020

You've learned a few tricks. - Volodymyr. - Volodymyr. Thank you. Any other questions?

03:49:41.020 - 03:49:49.080

Yes, sir. Perhaps give your name again. - Yes, I'll try. [INAUDIBLE]

03:49:49.080 - 03:50:50.560

[INAUDIBLE] (inaudible) freedom of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. I think that's very true, I think it is a very important issue. As would be freedom for other churches that one could mention, including Ukrainian Catholics, and certainly any religious group that has the aspiration to form a legal church, which is after all allowed clearly under Soviet law, should be allowed. should be allowed to do so.

03:50:50.560 - 03:51:11.560

I find though that when encouraging people in this country and indeed in other Western countries to support Christians in the Soviet Union, be they Orthodox or any other denomination, by prayer, writing letters, support and so on, that one gets the most response

03:51:11.560 - 03:51:31.560

if one encourages people to have a concern for individuals and for families, regardless of what church they may belong to. Because these questions are very complicated. It's difficult enough for many ordinary Christians in the West to understand what an Orthodox Christian,

03:51:31.560 - 03:51:50.960

be it Russian, Ukrainian, Georgian, or whatever, is, and what the relationship between them is or should be. So I think that's a specialized area of concern, an important concern, that should be of interest in ecumenical circles, whether it be for competence to deal with such matters,

03:51:50.960 - 03:52:07.760

rather than perhaps a matter of broad support within our churches. But certainly a matter of grounds for concern. Q: Yes, sir. My question is based on what we have heard

03:52:07.760 - 03:52:23.080

is knowledge and phenomenons. All that you do is a part of the experimental, a wonder of how far they work. It is in fact the facts of facts that I am learning

03:52:23.080 - 03:52:37.480

about the story of human existence and its life. Yet we also have heard, there is only about a quarter percent of people who think that time is a new beginning and no one else.

03:52:37.480 - 03:52:50.240

is a major issue in the Kestin College. You penetrate immediately, but we have seen now, all organizations are going into the ocean.

03:52:50.240 - 03:53:20.080

On the Channel 4, you will have three sessions. When is the Kestin College? Question about the response to the poor understanding of the situation in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. I fear Mr. Timoshchuk is 9% of the British people who really understood it.

03:53:20.080 - 03:53:32.520

I think what Merle O'Brien said this morning, even more Christian church people understood it. to certain people's work. And so, Mr. Tibbett, I just wanted to ask whether Kessler College and the rest of you

03:53:32.520 - 03:53:44.280

have a vision to tell the truth effectively to the West. - We've certainly got the vision. We do understand the importance of this, and it's something that we've been working at

03:53:44.280 - 03:53:57.800

for many years, I think, to get the media interested in what we were doing. It's been a long, hard slog, and it still is, But I think that this is something that does take time.

03:53:57.800 - 03:54:05.320

We have to establish ourselves, we have to establish Chesterton College as a source of reliable information. And that took time.

03:54:05.320 - 03:54:18.320

It took many years before people, A, firstly, accepted that what we were talking about was a real issue. And secondly, accepted that what we were saying about this particular issue

03:54:18.320 - 03:54:30.160

was accurate and reliable. Now, I don't want to seem snide, but I I think that battle is largely won now. But still exposure in the media

03:54:30.160 - 03:54:41.760

is, remains something that we have to work very hard at. We have been on television. When you were out, perhaps you'd been in it too. (audience laughing)

03:54:41.760 - 03:54:57.040

Not often enough, I agree with that. Now, we find actually, when there's a crisis on, we are inundated by the media. When the Polish crisis was on, 1981 onwards,

03:54:57.040 - 03:55:04.640

we got a couple of scoops, not very important, but they were scoops about Lech Wałęsa, and we had television crews who reported spending on this.

03:55:04.640 - 03:55:11.560

And then that was that day's story, the next day they all went away again, and it was over, that's how they work. But this last year or so,

03:55:11.560 - 03:55:20.680

with the development of the Soviet Union, we've had lots of people coming and saying, you know, what is really happening, what's going on, brief us.

03:55:20.680 - 03:55:32.040

We have journalists from newspapers all over the world. We have television crews coming in to film every now and then. And radio coverage is not bad. Church press coverage is not bad.

03:55:32.040 - 03:55:41.560

We always think it could be better, and I suspect we always will. And the best way to get us more coverage in the media is for people from all over the country

03:55:41.560 - 03:55:48.840

to write in to the television companies and say, "We want to see Captain Collins "on television more often." - Last question.

03:55:48.840 - 03:55:57.920

Yes, sir. (muffled speaking) I apologize about the music, but that is actually what the question was about.

03:55:57.920 - 03:56:09.280

One of the things, the most important thing that came up in your lecture, was the fact that you said, the spirit is more than Russia, the things that happen in Russia

03:56:09.280 - 03:56:21.680

are organic things, and that's the thing that came up. I'd like the audience to remember that the Christian, Christian, Christianity, none of us know it, we all know that.

03:56:21.680 - 03:56:32.900

(indistinct) In history, there was only one woman to own an empire. It was very wonderful. And Christianity was not that kind.

03:56:32.900 - 03:56:45.400

So our country, the Russians, or whatever, took some of the rights of Christianity. It was awful. So my question is actually about the media.

03:56:45.400 - 03:57:11.640

The British church or the British media is afraid of American Christianity. [INAUDIBLE] The question was about satellite communication

03:57:11.640 - 03:57:24.360

and the Christian message. The questioner mentioned that perhaps even in Britain that there is some fear of an evangelist appearing on a television screen, beaten by a satellite.

03:57:24.360 - 03:57:46.360

Is there any similar fear in the Soviet Union of a satellite evangelist? I think the last thing that Russia needs is American evangelists, or American television evangelists. They need evangelists and certainly they need their own people to evangelize them.

03:57:46.360 - 03:58:10.760

and I thought for many years that the role of us in the West ought to be to support and build up the churches and the Christians so that they can go out and reach their own people, be it in labour camps, be it in Siberia, or be it just in everyday, daily life. I think that must be the strategy for the churches in the West. As for satellite television, I don't think there's any immediate fear

03:58:10.760 - 03:58:52.400

until the black market in satellite dishes becomes a lot more developed than it is at the moment. Ladies and gentlemen, one thing that Jane Ellis said made me feel very sorry for her. when she said she had to read Prada every day. Now our sufferings have been very small during this conference.

03:58:52.400 - 03:59:17.400

It might have been a bit chilly to begin with, but that was nothing like the suffering of having to read Prada every day. And moreover, we have so much that's been delightful. We've had that splendid lunch provided by the Ukrainian ladies, and we have even more delights to come.

03:59:17.400 - 03:59:52.400

We have the concert starting at 5 o'clock, and I strongly recommend everyone to stay to see that. It will be, I'm sure, a wonderful and exciting experience. But of course the main point of this conference has been the three addresses that we've had, and I hope you will agree with me that they have given us enormous information and enormous

03:59:52.400 - 04:00:22.960

stimulation, and also given us a great deal of spiritual food. So, once more, I'd like to thank all three speakers, Reverend Michael Bordeaux, Mr. Roland Bryan and Miss Jane Ellis, for the care, for their scholarship and for the effectiveness with which they put over their addresses today.

04:00:22.960 - 04:00:57.160

So thank you once more to all three. [applause] Reverend Father, ladies and gentlemen, we have received a letter today from the League of Friends of Disabled, the Cedars Medical Rehabilitation Unit, and I thought this would be the appropriate time to read it. Dear Mr. Chairman, I have just learned from the Vice Chairman of Mr. Morisovsky that your

04:00:57.160 - 04:01:19.560

community will be commemorating this year the 1000th anniversary of Christianity in Ukraine. May I, on behalf of the League of Friends and the Rotary Club of Kalten Tanger, thank our sincere congratulations to the Northern community and indeed to all Ukrainians in

04:01:19.560 - 04:01:32.720

will be bitten on this great occasion. Both the Caltrans Rotary Club and ourselves are very grateful for the great interest shown by your community in raising money

04:01:32.720 - 04:01:47.280

for the charities which we represent. We trust that your celebration will be enjoyed by all and many. We wish you every happiness.

04:01:48.600 - 04:02:00.600

Thank you. [Applause] [Silence] We first give thanks for the millennium of Christianity

04:02:00.600 - 04:02:29.600

originating in Kiev. We give thanks for what it has meant in the country of Ukraine and in other countries from which it has sprung. We rejoice with the Ukrainian nation, in the Ukrainian self, and among Ukrainians dispersed throughout the world.

04:02:33.600 - 04:03:15.600

And then we pray for all believers of the Communist group, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and of other faiths. We give thanks for the work of the Holy Spirit among the Christian communities of the Soviet world. We recognize the do-love, great place of ecumenism and ambition, and give thanks for the encouragement and steadfastness of those who have praised our Father.

04:03:15.600 - 04:03:49.600

We pray also for the authorities of the Soviet Union. We pray for appropriate change. so that all believers can play full part, free part, in the lives of their nations. Let me pray for the churches and other religious leaders in the West.

04:03:53.600 - 04:04:35.600

Although Christians and others will have to leave the lands of their birth in the Soviet world and make their homes in the West, appropriate means of service and life and witness may be open to them. And then, lastly, we pray for the work of Captain Don. We give thanks for what has been achieved in 20 years, for its reputation, for its influence.

04:04:35.600 - 04:05:08.600

We pray that both the work and its influence may grow. We ask the blessing of God upon the work of our support. And therein is passed the thought, and set the knowledge, and the life, and the boldness, and the ambition. We pray too, especially among our own religious communities, especially in Christian churches of our country,

04:05:08.600 - 04:05:29.600

but there may be a greater awareness and understanding of the position of Christians and big politics in that. There's awareness and understanding. [BLANK_AUDIO]