00:00:02.260 - 00:00:11.980

I never knew much about the CD. Was he a pilot? No. Okay. And his primary occupation now? Now?

00:00:12.320 - 00:00:27.500

Uh-huh. Well, he's dead. Oh, he's dead. Okay. Do you know his date of death? December 21. What is this year?

00:00:28.180 - 00:00:50.200

This is 2000. September, what's the last? September, October, November. I'm Deanie Parrish and we're in the home of Josephine Egan in Colorado Springs, Colorado. She was a WASP class 43-5. Today is the 15th of September, 2000.

00:00:51.200 - 00:01:12.020

Okay, Dodie, if you would just start out by telling us your name, when and where you were born, and who your parents were. My mother was Ada Bertha Willett. Father was Arthur Herman Pitts, P-I-T-Z. And who are you?

00:01:12.600 - 00:01:57.300

And I am Josephine, prefer being called Dodie, Egan. And when and where were you born? I was born in Manitowoc, Wisconsin. And did you have a brother, a sibling?

00:01:57.300 - 00:02:20.180

Litz: Yes. Kelly: Tell me about your brother. My brother graduated from Thayer School at Dartmouth and was a CB during World War II, based at Tinian in the Pacific, in Samoa, I think.

00:02:20.410 - 00:02:42.880

There are three. Kelly: What was his job in the CBs? engineer, building runways, clearing runways. What are your earliest remembrances as a child?

00:02:47.720 - 00:02:57.580

Okay, that's okay. Was your brother older or younger? He's four years younger. As you were growing up, what was your dad doing?

00:02:57.990 - 00:03:14.440

Steele: Dad was an engineer. He and a Mr. McMullen organized McMullen & Pitts Company. Kelly: What did that company do? It was an engineering company?

00:03:15.600 - 00:03:48.020

That company dredged rivers, dredged and—they called them—I do not know. They are built out in—not built—out in Lake Michigan, because Manitowoc is on Lake Michigan. In your early childhood, what do you remember playing?

00:03:49.820 - 00:04:17.740

Remember games that you played? I had the most marvelous childhood. Father had asthma, so he could not participate in sports, but he put full background into both my brother and myself.

00:04:23.250 - 00:04:46.640

Kelly: Okay. As a young child growing up in your early years, how did you spend your vacations? You mean as younger years? Kelly: In your younger years. During the summertime, what would you do?

00:04:46.900 - 00:05:18.080

Litz: Well, we had lots of family friends in a marvelous baseball spot at Branch, which is where my father was born. We played baseball, we played golf, we played all sports. Father was always there to help us in any sport, because he couldn't be there.

00:05:18.820 - 00:05:45.880

Kelly: Dodie, tell me about your grandparents. When I was young, my grandfather and grandmother lived just across the street. I would come home from school and Grandpa would play cards with me. We had very good fun.

00:05:47.920 - 00:06:17.860

Tell me what a Christmas was like at your home when you were growing up. Would your grandparents come over to your house and spend Christmas? What was your Christmas like? We started out not having Christmas until Christmas Day morning.

00:06:20.080 - 00:06:38.400

Later it became celebrated, or at least opening gifts, some gifts, in the evening. Would your grandparents come over and have Christmas dinner? Yes. Did you have other relatives who would come?

00:06:38.720 - 00:06:53.240

Yes. Uncles and aunts. Was your home the kind of home where they kind of gathered rather than your family going to one of the aunts and uncles' houses?

00:06:54.300 - 00:07:05.960

Did they mostly come to your house? Yes. So you had a very close family relationship. What are your earliest remembrances about school?

00:07:08.730 - 00:07:20.500

Did you walk? Yes. The Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, which was the only public school, high school, at the time.

00:07:23.940 - 00:07:27.720

And what was your question? And did you walk? How did you get to school? Yeah, we walked.

00:07:28.260 - 00:07:45.060

We had to walk there. We were picked up at noon to go home and have lunch, and then driven back and we had to walk home. And it was not very close.

00:07:47.760 - 00:08:13.580

But we had fun. We had what you'd call a joint where the kids would all meet together after school was out. Strong support of the high school. Kelly: When you were in school, in high school or junior high, do you remember one particular

00:08:13.760 - 00:08:49.460

teacher that might have impressed you? In third grade, she taught English—no, not English—math and science. That's how I graduated with a chemistry major and a math minor. And it was that teacher that inspired you?

00:08:49.500 - 00:09:00.180

That teacher, mm-hmm. Miss Gosser. I don't—I'm close, but I'm not— Okay.

00:09:00.880 - 00:09:18.860

While you were in school, during the wintertime, you had some cold winters. Oh, lots, yeah. What did you do sports-wise during the wintertime? Kelly: Did you ice skate and ski?

00:09:18.940 - 00:09:40.200

Litz: Yeah. At the lake, it formed ponds, puddles, ponds in between. It would freeze over by icebergs along the whole state. But there was puddles.

00:09:40.940 - 00:09:51.800

You could ice skate on one. It was marvelous. A marvelous childhood. I can't say enough about it.

00:09:52.480 - 00:10:04.820

Having really fun. Kelly: Were you a good ice skater? Reifelt: Yeah. Kelly: When you were in high school, did you have other activities in high school like

00:10:04.940 - 00:10:10.280

drama or speech or background? Reifelt: Yeah. Yeah. Kelly: What did you participate in?

00:10:10.280 - 00:10:26.920

I participated in all the sports. In fact, I have a pin right now. It was the only gold one that was given. Some of them got silver, but I got the gold one.

00:10:28.000 - 00:10:45.740

You had to get the three, like a baseball and a hockey, that's where you won. - I won three-- - Different sports? - Different sports, which gave me the gold,

00:10:47.080 - 00:10:57.800

just a little gold pin. - And did you also get a gold pin for something that you did with the church? And tell us about that.

00:10:58.860 - 00:11:04.880

- No. - Sunday school? - Yeah. No, I didn't participate in Sunday school.

00:11:05.320 - 00:11:17.280

- Oh, okay. While you were in high school, what were your social activities like? Did you have that? All the sports, yeah.

00:11:17.360 - 00:11:41.480

We had senior prom, junior prom. Then we had the junior play, and then the senior play. Did you participate in those plays? I think I did one, but something that was way back there.

00:11:43.040 - 00:12:06.980

Not a very prominent part. Were you into music at all in high school? I was taking piano lessons to a marvelous teacher who lived next door. Did you ever do anything professionally with that music background?

00:12:07.420 - 00:12:45.240

We had, well I participated for four years in Home Talent, where I took dancing lessons. So I made the chorus line in each of these four, and they were all different, all four different plays, musicals basically. And our, oh, what do you call it?

00:12:47.620 - 00:13:00.040

When you do a test run on the play. - Dress rehearsal. - Dress rehearsal. And in one of them, we could not do it until four o'clock in the morning.

00:13:00.260 - 00:13:32.180

Well, Father had a fit, because it was a movie theater, too, and for some reason or another we could not get, the show could not go on until they were gone, and the movie theater was... very happy with Fork, his little daughter, at four o'clock in the morning.

00:13:35.400 - 00:13:50.860

Kelly: Describe your high school prom, your senior prom. Describe that. Redmond: It was not anything like they do today. I mean, it was decent dancing.

00:13:52.840 - 00:14:14.260

Do you remember any special boyfriends? Oh, yeah. Tell us about those. The football captain, red-headed, and went to University of Wisconsin and was one of

00:14:14.260 - 00:14:28.460

the primary quarterbacks for Wisconsin. Did you date him after you went to the university? He was there and I was there. Could you describe for us your graduation from high school?

00:14:30.940 - 00:14:44.280

Where was it held? It was held outside. It was one of the first ones. Normally they were handled in the auditorium.

00:14:45.260 - 00:14:54.220

Of course, we had beautiful weather. Did you have caps and gowns? Doty: Yeah. And they were black.

00:14:54.220 - 00:15:31.060

They weren't all the colors that they were. Kelly: Doty, growing up through all the schools, who were your role models? I don't know. Kelly: Was it a teacher?

00:15:31.300 - 00:15:52.420

Was it a member of your family? Was it someone on the outside that you looked up to? I think my father and mother, really. When you graduated from high school, what did you do that summer?

00:15:58.760 - 00:16:43.680

Remember, several times I worked at the local store in the closery section with an adult over Christmas, because this is when they needed help. And of course, in a town like this size, everybody knows everybody. So it was very easy for me to get a job at Schuette Brothers.

00:16:46.960 - 00:17:06.780

And then when you graduated, how did you select the university to attend? Why did you go to that university? How did your mother and dad feel having you leave home? Because you went to a different town, right?

00:17:08.060 - 00:17:43.460

How did they feel about your leaving home? Well, they never said much. They would come down, it was about, Madison was about 150 miles from Manitowoc, so it was easy to get to. And Father always, he took my brother and myself to a football game once a year. It was usually Michigan, and they usually

00:17:43.600 - 00:18:06.600

ran the ball back on the kickoff. Kelly: While you were still in junior high and high school, you would go to a football game at the university. Yeah, and the cars had those Eisen-class shutters.

00:18:06.780 - 00:18:23.900

I mean, you did not have a window that you could roll up. And the weather, this is what I remember, was cold, which is what I had hoped would happen here. But it snows like mad and tomorrow it is gone.

00:18:26.440 - 00:18:33.920

Would your mother also go to the football games? No. Okay. When you went to the university, where did you live?

00:18:35.220 - 00:18:53.220

At the sorority house. The last two years. Originally at—oh, let's see. My freshman year, Ann Emery was the dormitory.

00:18:54.520 - 00:19:11.740

I lived there as a freshman. That's where I learned to smoke, too. Not long. Oh, and Dad would say, "Do you smoke?"

00:19:11.740 - 00:19:21.000

"Yes." "Don't do it around me." Kelly: And what sorority were you in? Reifelt: AOPi.

00:19:21.200 - 00:19:39.460

Kelly: Okay. Do you remember any of the activities that you participated in? Reifelt: Yeah, working as personnel director for the annual, which is about that thick, with all the heads of the graduate class.

00:19:41.120 - 00:20:02.740

And the doctor was the editor, and he was a doctor. Schlitz, same as brewery. Kelly: And while you were there your freshman year, you continued dating this football star? Reid: Yeah.

00:20:02.880 - 00:20:22.580

Kelly: What would you do? Where would you go on dates? Movies. Sat through Benny Goodman for three times once. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make when you left home and went to college?

00:20:28.480 - 00:20:42.000

You mean clothing-wise, what to wear? Or was it living with someone else? Did you have roommates? Litz: No, I had a primary, I mean a private.

00:20:42.010 - 00:21:00.840

Reifeldt: Did you get lonesome for your family? Litz: Oh yes, we could talk on the telephone. And as I say, Madison wasn't that far away. Reifelt: And what year did you finish school?

00:21:00.840 - 00:21:19.900

Levy: 19—wait, '31? Litz: Maybe '41? Levy: No. High school was '31.

00:21:23.280 - 00:21:34.100

Litz: Probably '35? Levy: Yeah. Litz: 1935? Yeah, I was out one year when my mother died and daddy wanted me to stay that year.

00:21:35.230 - 00:21:56.420

That was '31. After you finished college, describe your college graduation. Had your mother already died when you graduated? Yes.

00:21:58.260 - 00:22:08.480

Did your dad come down to see you graduate? Yes. Oh, yeah. After you graduated, then what did you do?

00:22:09.680 - 00:22:23.320

Let me back up and ask you, what did you major in in college? Chemistry and mathematics. Do you remember any special teachers in college that influenced you? No.

00:22:25.540 - 00:23:00.940

I know I was the only female in the class in this. As far as jobs, they were not available for a female in technical or chemistry. I loved chemistry. When you finished college then, since there weren't jobs available in your major.

00:23:01.020 - 00:23:28.360

Then I went to the secretarial school and worked there until I went in the WASP. At this secretarial school, how long did you go there? The course was a year, was learning to type and learning to shorthand. And you did that because jobs were not available in the technical world for women.

00:23:31.140 - 00:23:52.660

Do you remember where you were and how you felt when you heard about Pearl Harbor? Yes, I was in the sunroom at my house. And we were horrified. And how did World War II affect your family?

00:23:54.380 - 00:24:20.380

Only my brother and myself were involved. Do you remember the first time that you saw an airplane? To this day, I still go and look. Oh, and then to hear an airplane flying over was great.

00:24:21.260 - 00:25:01.760

When did you first decide that you wanted to learn to fly, and why did you decide that? I do not know why, except that I fell in love with it. My uncle, who owned the Waco, it was with him owning an airplane. Somebody told my father, we had a pier and a big lighthouse and the ships went through.

00:25:03.640 - 00:25:26.100

I went hopping those. Somebody told my father, he said, "If you ever do that again." I had my boyfriend with me too, which is amazing. I had several good friends who went flying with me and their parents didn't say anything.

00:25:27.540 - 00:25:36.840

Tell me about the first time you-- This is at age 15. The first time you went up in an airplane, who did you go with? My uncle.

00:25:37.100 - 00:25:58.740

Your uncle. And he made me sick. So if you got sick on that first flight, why did you decide to keep doing it? Well I knew that if I was doing it, I wasn't going to be sick.

00:25:59.620 - 00:26:26.200

Somebody else doing it. And then did your uncle, was he your first instructor? No, he was superintendent of the local shipyard, which built twenty-eight submarines. And he was an engineer. He was my father's youngest brother.

00:26:28.100 - 00:26:43.940

Describe for me, did you ever get to go in a submarine? No, darn it. I did cut one away. When that cutaway, they're sitting on like bricks.

00:26:45.400 - 00:27:18.600

When they're launched, those bricks are knocked out from underneath. You hope that in the bow and in the stern, that it goes down all in one and not the bow bow and then the stern. So he, Uncle Herman, invented an electrical device that triggered both bow and stern.

00:27:19.250 - 00:27:47.540

So when it was time for the ship to leave, you did one, one push of the button, and that brought her—and they launched them sideways in the river. This is—because that makes a big splash. Kelly: What was he building these submarines for?

00:27:47.830 - 00:27:50.720

Who— Litz: The Navy. Kelly: For the Navy? Litz: Yeah.

00:27:51.130 - 00:28:21.580

Kelly: And was this part of the war effort? Litz: Yeah. After it was launched, the conning tower was removed and the ship driven, if you will, floated down the Mississippi River out of Chicago, Manitowoc to Chicago, down and recommissioned

00:28:21.580 - 00:28:49.340

it down at New Orleans or wherever it went and put the counting tower back on. Kelly: So your family, the war did affect your uncle's business too, didn't it? Steele: Yes. What point did your brother go into the Seabees?

00:28:49.800 - 00:29:07.540

Was it after Pearl Harbor? It was immediately on his graduation. And no, it wasn't immediate because Daddy died right after he graduated, when he came home.

00:29:08.280 - 00:29:36.380

He was home for a couple days before he went into the Seabees. How did your dad's death affect you? Well, I wasn't happy at all. He was a wonderful father, very strict, German, Deutscher.

00:29:38.620 - 00:30:02.640

Were you ever able to take your father up in an airplane with you? That is one of the things that I am so sorry, because he never saw me in the WASP. Kelly: When you began taking flying lessons, tell me about your first solo. What kind of airplane?

00:30:02.780 - 00:30:31.420

It was a swallow. We went out in the grass field and did shooting landings. All of a sudden we got turned around at the end of the field and he gets out. He said, "All right, take it up."

00:30:31.420 - 00:30:54.520

I will never forget the word that it had to do in chemistry, and I cannot. It is a word that went round and round and round, and I went up and I landed, and I went up and up. This never really was like this, never.

00:30:56.460 - 00:31:13.420

At that time, Dodie, did you know any other girls who were flying? David: No. I believe this was the first one in the state. That's where I got my private license.

00:31:15.580 - 00:31:32.320

That number, or did I say that I made— Kelly: Tell me again. Martin: I was—all right, Newark to Long Island, that basically—this is what we were doing.

00:31:32.440 - 00:32:03.980

We may do six a day, we may do one a day. For one year, we handled 100 percent of the P-47s out of them. But on one of them, I took off and Cease was with me, so she heard the goings-on. All of a sudden this beast went, "Oh!"

00:32:07.260 - 00:32:41.300

And we're over in New York, and this is late afternoon in the sunshine, and I am figuring, looking of course, where am I going to put this thing. I pulled back the throttle and it quit coughing, but I thought, "Did I make a jackass out of myself doing something wrong?"

00:32:43.540 - 00:33:08.060

I tried it again and it coughed again. Well then I called Mayday to the tower. the fire truck, the ambulance, you name them, and they all came out there to me. They told me to land on 21L, and I said, "I do not want to land on 21R, because 21R would

00:33:08.120 - 00:33:24.480

have been longer and I may need." So landed everything. She landed beautifully. She was one that was marked with the British mark, with the pinwheel.

00:33:27.940 - 00:33:46.000

I got off the runway and started taxiing in. The fireman comes in, "Oh, girl, you better get back and get out of there. You just threw a flame ten feet out in front of you." You had to fill out the form one and form one.

00:33:46.360 - 00:34:05.360

I was sitting there doing my thing. I would almost imagine to this day that the spot where that flame came out of the bottom of it. It was an experience.

00:34:06.160 - 00:34:31.800

Let me go back and ask you, Dodie. is something special about your private pilot's license. Tell me about that. When we were given our licenses, and they were not private, they were commercial, I got it, "040608."

00:34:33.100 - 00:34:52.700

That is the one I got there. Until somebody told me that they never gave these numbers away. Once you were numbered, they did not use it on anybody else. I said, "You write and ask them.

00:34:53.320 - 00:35:05.100

Sure." I got 16351. There was something special about that number relative to Cochran, Jacqueline Cochran? It was less than Jackie's.

00:35:06.540 - 00:35:31.440

Your number was lower? My number was lower than Jackie's. This was from a gentleman who worked in FAA or CAA then. So you kept taking flying lessons and flying until you had built up your hours.

00:35:31.440 - 00:35:47.740

Yeah, it did not take long. When you heard about a flying training program, tell me what your thoughts were. mean the CPT bit? No, did you--okay, let's back up and do the CPT.

00:35:48.120 - 00:36:14.520

Well, we just had a CPT organization in Manitowoc, and that's all. Did you have ground school? No, not then. The ground school is when I was doing this, getting the certificates, which I got to teach

00:36:14.960 - 00:36:44.380

at night school at the University of Wisconsin in Milwaukee, so I could fly during the day. And I might add, at this time of year, the runways were snow. And you flew with skis and no brakes, of course, naturally. And that was fun, too.

00:36:45.560 - 00:36:59.720

Because it had to stop by itself, then you could get out. Kelly: Tell me some of the primary, the training planes that you flew when you were learning to fly. Litz: Swallow, basically.

00:37:01.020 - 00:37:14.560

Then Uncle Armand bought the Waco, which was a bi-wing. Swallow was single. So was the Luscombe. So was the—what was the one in Ohio?

00:37:15.870 - 00:37:31.860

Kelly: Piper? Litz: Alliance. No, that—and Piper, of course. We had—we were ordered—we were in—I forget where—picking up a P-47, the whole

00:37:32.400 - 00:37:44.480

group of us. And we were ordered to—what is the town in Pennsylvania? Harrisburg? No, Cubs.

00:37:44.780 - 00:38:07.180

Where the Cubs were built. Anyway, what? We were told we needed some of these moved. they were to go to Kansas, where the first B-29s were salons.

00:38:11.260 - 00:38:51.780

Anyway Ruthie got out there and of course you ran up your engine, you braked until you letters, but it got enough power to, it would not be slow in rolling to take off, you know. Anyway she did that to her cub and it went, "Whoo-whoo!" She had the brake on with the cub and went absolutely vertical. Many funny things like that.

00:38:52.990 - 00:39:25.880

Let me ask you, when you received notice that you had been accepted as a WASP, were you interviewed then to go into training for WASP? I do not remember ever being interviewed on that subject at all, except my logbook, whatever, up to that point.

00:39:26.480 - 00:39:38.000

And that was in March, and we went like tomorrow. Reifeldt: Okay. Do you remember how your mother felt about your flying? I do not recall her saying anything.

00:39:39.300 - 00:39:56.600

When you received orders that you had been accepted for training, how did you get from home to Sweetwater? Oh, I am sure by air. Did you know other girls who were also accepted for training?

00:39:58.220 - 00:40:17.200

Marge Sice, who was killed there, was from Milwaukee. Kelly: When you got to Sweetwater, do you remember what you did? Were there other girls arriving at the same time? Redmond: Just about.

00:40:17.360 - 00:40:37.220

I have seen pictures of—I think we were let off at the gate or something, and here are these females, luggings, suitcases. Do you remember your first impression of the field? Not necessarily that it was bigger than what I was used to.

00:40:38.240 - 00:40:53.380

Okay. Do you remember the flight line with all the airplanes? Oh, yes. The AT-6s all lined up. Right. Okay, we're going to-- Tell me about your bay mates and training.

00:40:55.440 - 00:41:17.840

E-6. I made a dress by hand there. What were you going to do with that dress? You couldn't fly in it. Wear it. Wear it. Go to, what was the officers club or the club downtown? The Blue Bonnet Hotel.

00:41:17.880 - 00:41:33.400

No, not the hotel. Oh, okay. This was, um, that was a Blue Bonnet Club, I think, wasn't it? During your time off, what did you do?

00:41:33.980 - 00:41:41.020

Went down to the club? Uh-huh. Met some boys. Where did these boys come from?

00:41:41.780 - 00:42:01.320

They were Army PFCs and what have you. There must have been some military, Army installation somewhere near there. Kelly: Can you tell me about your training at Sweetwater, about some of the airplanes you flew?

00:42:02.300 - 00:42:42.960

Yeah, I have in my form 1 and 1A, she is a natural. And I, with that, yeah, because Richie, was she there? Oh, she sat over and worked on her fingernails, not paid a doggone bit of attention to what I was doing, and turned me in. And I thought, "Well, to you." So what do you call it?

00:42:43.040 - 00:42:59.340

Ride. Kelly: Check ride? Reifeldt: Check ride. No problem. Go and get in the nearest airplane you can get into. Let me ask you about the ground school at Avenger.

00:43:01.500 - 00:43:25.660

What course did you enjoy in ground school? Probably the physics. Yeah, I was going to say it would be similar to what I had, physics, engineering, and each airplane had its own, what do you call, file.

00:43:27.440 - 00:43:38.020

Do you remember any outstanding, anything outstanding that happened while you were in training? I soloed when I shouldn't have. Tell me about that solo.

00:43:39.060 - 00:43:55.820

Well, it was B-47, go out and do two hours or what have you and come back in. Well, which I did. I did my over two hours and came back in. They weren't happy with that.

00:43:56.320 - 00:44:12.260

I guess I just wasn't watching what I should have been watching. Could you describe your graduation from Avenger? Oh, yeah. Tell me about some of the celebrities that came. Was Miss Cochran there?

00:44:12.580 - 00:44:38.600

Yeah. She gave us the wings. I got the ATC wings, too. That was, I guess, well, it had to be before the others were given out. Can you tell us what kind of uniform you had and what did you fly in? Either pinks or greens.

00:44:39.380 - 00:44:54.980

Okay. And after your graduation, what specifically did you request as an assignment? Did you request— Well, they said, "Request what you don't want and then you'll get what you want."

00:44:56.620 - 00:45:11.880

No, I was very happy to go to the original base, which was Wilmington. Okay. When you got to Wilmington, to whom did you report? What was her name?

00:45:13.380 - 00:45:21.080

Betty Phyllis— Gillies. Gillies, who died, is that correct? I did hear that.

00:45:22.980 - 00:45:31.800

And she was a WAF, was she not? She was a WAF. Okay. How were you treated, since you were WASP, under the WAFs?

00:45:31.940 - 00:45:54.680

How were you treated by the WAFs? Gideon: Oh, gee, I remember everything being—I make friends easily, except when they're named—they wear a red and white shirt. He's O.B.

00:45:56.140 - 00:46:23.920

That's his name. When you got to Wilmington, what were your quarters like? Where did you stay? Dormitories. We had one dormitory, which is ours. I spent a month out in Evansville, Indiana, 'cause there was a P-47 factory there.

00:46:24.920 - 00:46:42.780

So we handled them too, but you came in and you just took any bed that anybody didn't occupy. - Tell me about one of your cross countries. Tell me what you would do.

00:46:43.980 - 00:47:00.980

When you would take an airplane, would you pick it up at the factory? Wilmington? Litz: Well, P-47s, yes. And a 51 is the one that bellied in and had to be repaired at—anyway,

00:47:01.820 - 00:47:33.600

picked it up at Mawa, New Jersey. Nobody had ever heard of Mawa. But there was one, Ruthie and I each had one going and flew to California. On that trip, Dodie, you would stop in different places? And where would you spend the night when you were on a trip?

00:47:34.860 - 00:48:07.600

We wrote our own TRs, and somebody was always there to say, "All right, this hotel or this motel." Kelly: Tell me about having to take that parachute with you. That was a trip, a delivery to -- in Canada, New Year -- no, Christmas Eve. And we, of

00:48:07.600 - 00:48:32.360

course, had to take care of our own equipment because nobody was there to -- that delivery, It was 30 or 40 degrees below zero, St. John, Quebec. And below zero, and thank God they put the airplane. It was one of the primary trainers.

00:48:32.680 - 00:49:00.200

My first solo. And put it in the hangar so it was not difficult to get started the next morning. What kind of equipment were you wearing? I know you've seen the pictures of the wool hats and boots.

00:49:02.240 - 00:49:18.660

When you would ferry one of these airplanes to a base or to a point of embarkation, then how would you get back to your base? Air. And how would you do that because transportation was so hard to find?

00:49:19.340 - 00:49:47.700

Well, we could bump anybody. I mean, we had number one priority. And then when you would get back to your home base, what kind of schedule then were you on? Well, we'd just check in and find out when the next trip we were to go on. While you were at Wilmington, were there any accidents that you knew about with the WASP?

00:49:51.740 - 00:50:13.740

Do you remember any unusual incidents that occurred besides one you told us? Anything unusual? mean the one to New Jersey? No other than that? Tell us some of the airplanes you flew that you ferried.

00:50:14.040 - 00:50:27.940

We trained on the pursuits down -- when I went, it was right on the border of Texas. Harlingen? No. Brownsville?

00:50:29.540 - 00:51:01.200

And there were 39s there, and we had priority, tower, green, get out, because they got heated up so fast that once they got us started, out and leave. And do you remember how long that course took? How long you were in training? Six, June 6th.

00:51:08.260 - 00:51:37.560

Do you remember how you felt when you learned that the WASPs were going to be deactivated? somebody burned down the club. That has always been funny. Nobody knows -- well, they accused the boss of setting fire to the officers' club. And it was right next to our dorm, so we could see.

00:51:38.200 - 00:51:49.440

And they did that the night before you were disbanded? Yeah. Where did you go after you were disbanded then? Did you go back home?

00:51:49.480 - 00:52:03.980

Home. Okay. And then what did you do? Well finally started playing a little golf and was about to go into Kansas City, which

00:52:04.000 - 00:52:22.160

was TWA's headquarters. who set up a Wasp procurement bureau. And so instead of doing that, when I was going to, I got married. Tell me about meeting this special person.

00:52:22.160 - 00:52:49.220

He was in the same high school. All knew him. Not in looking as a prospective husband, no. We played a lot of golf together. And all of the prisoners of war went to Florida for and I, I, something or other. - R and R?

00:52:49.360 - 00:52:58.400

- R and R. - And at this point, he had already been overseas and had been a prisoner of war and came back. - Yeah.

00:52:59.100 - 00:53:13.300

- And where did you re-meet him when he came back? - In the bar at the Hotel Manitowoc. And his sister was there. I went to a movie, this gal friend,

00:53:13.780 - 00:53:30.480

and it was perfectly all right in Manitowoc to sit at, go and have a drink of alcohol at the bar. I mean, people did not look down at you. Anyway, Judy and Dodie went to the movie

00:53:30.560 - 00:53:51.680

and then stopped in for a drink, and over there at the table sat two gals and a guy. And the guy had a mustache, mustache. Well, and that was Johnny. And he said to his sister, "Who's that?"

00:53:52.820 - 00:54:29.400

"Well," she said, "that's Joe Pitts." Well, from that, he came over and said high, and I looked at him with this thing, and I thought, "Oh, no. Oh, really? How to win friends and influence people." Anyway, from there on, we played golf every day, weather permitting. And then he went out and drank a case of beer at night, and --

00:54:29.400 - 00:54:52.100

What qualities in him made you fall in love with him? I think basically because he said that there's anybody here that can talk the language. And then describe your wedding. Oh, it was slushy and sloppy out.

00:54:57.880 - 00:55:04.420

Did you have a formal wedding? Yeah. Okay. At that point, was your mom still alive?

00:55:09.680 - 00:55:17.780

Uh-uh. No. No. But you got married in your hometown, which was also his hometown.

00:55:17.940 - 00:55:33.840

Yes. Right. And then where did you go on your honeymoon? We went to Land O'Lakes, northern Wisconsin.

00:55:34.390 - 00:56:03.580

It had bowling alleys, and we also went skiing one day. I've been there since and I can't even find the level that could have been a hill. But anyway, I went up and was skiing down and wiped out, and he's in back of me and he can't move to get off of the trail.

00:56:05.400 - 00:56:14.340

So we had fun. Lots of snow. And once you were married, now you're an Air Force wife. Yes.

00:56:15.680 - 00:56:40.460

What was his first station? Did you go back to Texas? No, like Big Springs? Big Springs, uh-huh. I think Big Springs, because it was awful hard. We were almost kept living or leaving

00:56:40.680 - 00:57:05.660

are spending the night in the car. The hotel permitted only three nights. Then you got out and spent it and came back in. Kelly: Tell me about any of your assignments or his assignments where you went with him and lived as an Air Force wife.

00:57:07.420 - 00:57:14.580

Some of those experiences. I know you went to Japan. Where were you living in Japan? - In quarters.

00:57:15.120 - 00:57:23.920

- In quarters. What air base? - Not American City, but Nagoya. - Nagoya, okay.

00:57:24.500 - 00:57:56.300

And what was his job there? - He was Ops, 5th Air Force. Of all the assignments that you had with him, which one did you enjoy the most? I would almost say that Japan I enjoyed better than Hawaii, because I am very sensitive to

00:57:56.300 - 00:58:28.380

heat. I cannot stand being hot. That's why I like to go to Antarctica. And nobody goes with me because they don't want to be cold. Anyway, it was Japan. Kelly: Then when you came back, eventually he went to the Air War College? Hebert: He went to—which one was it, Maxwell?

00:58:28.990 - 00:58:42.840

Kelly: Air Command and Staff School? Hebert: Yeah, Command and Staff. Kelly: Okay. Then where did you go after Command and Staff School?

00:58:43.200 - 00:59:06.560

Did you go to Washington? No, that -- the order to Pentagon was only at the end. Okay. As an Air Force wife, how did you spend your time when he was flying? Oh, played a lot of bridge.

00:59:07.600 - 00:59:19.940

Okay. Did you do a lot of sightseeing when you were overseas? - Yeah. - And then-- - And bought a lot of gorgeous material.

00:59:21.060 - 00:59:34.660

Had a full-time seamstress in Japan. They're making things for the girls, making things for me. - Could I ask you, who are the girls?

00:59:35.140 - 00:59:40.980

- My girls. - When did you have-- - That you saw the picture. - Okay. When did you have your first child?

00:59:41.100 - 01:00:10.740

Where were you? She cost $8.50, and she was born at Bowling Field in Washington. Kelly: Then how long before you had another child? She is three, no not three, two years behind.

01:00:12.320 - 01:00:27.700

Katie is the oldest, Annie is the youngest. And how did they feel about changing schools a lot? Because I know as Air Force you move around a lot. How did that affect those children?

01:00:28.750 - 01:00:55.920

Well, Katie, the oldest, was not very happy, but Annie, it was easy to take care of. As those girls were growing up, as children and growing up, what activities did you participate in as far as their school or any of their activities? When I wasn't playing bridge, I would volunteer.

01:00:58.120 - 01:01:14.060

Kelly: For the most part, were you always housed on the air base, or did you have quarters in town? In Japan, we were in quarters. Hawaii, we were in quarters.

01:01:17.220 - 01:01:34.820

Japan, we were in quarters. I said that. Kelly: Let me ask you what you feel the advantages or the pluses were for those two girls growing up with their dad in the Air Force.

01:01:34.840 - 01:01:53.280

Well, I thought that it was good for children of Air Force or Army, that this was going to be good for them. But I do not think it turned out. I do not think.

01:01:54.680 - 01:02:19.860

Children miss their friends. You take a junior, or better still, a senior, and graduate them with kids that they do not know. And Katie is not one that makes friends easily.

01:02:20.640 - 01:02:44.340

She did not have what I would call a very fun senior year. She just did not. She is not outgoing, except now. She has turned out and is marvelous.

01:02:46.120 - 01:03:14.880

All the difference in the world. Tell me about your last assignment, which was the Pentagon. What was that like? Well, he would come home and he loved beer.

01:03:14.880 - 01:03:41.720

He came for the beer, and then we would shake a dice at—oh, he had a little bar at the—so his death was a surprise. What was his job at the Pentagon? Personnel.

01:03:43.440 - 01:03:58.520

I know that was a difficult thing for you when that happened. What got you through that? I had lots of friends. Lots of friends.

01:04:00.120 - 01:04:37.540

And after that, where did you move then? where did I wind up? It would either be Panadolc or something like that. Let me ask you, what brought you to Colorado Springs? The hope that there would be snow. Lots of it.

01:04:38.960 - 01:04:45.800

Kelly: Doty, what is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP? Doty: Not very good. Kelly: Not very good? Doty: No.

01:04:45.800 - 01:05:02.940

Kelly: Could you tell me why? Doty: She would step on anybody, trot on anybody to get what she wanted. It was she, me. Kelly: What is your opinion of the WASP program?

01:05:04.230 - 01:05:32.540

Doty: Oh, I think she did a beautiful job. If it hadn't been for her, I don't know whether Nancy Love, she did a real fine job too, but it, what's her name, Jackie had to take Nancy under her wing because they had to unify.

01:05:35.060 - 01:05:45.640

Do you want to tell me about your children and your grandchildren? Well, I've just about told you. The two girls. The two girls in soccer.

01:05:46.160 - 01:06:10.920

They are really into soccer. And Katie is in field hockey. And John, who is ice hockey and excellent, excellent, he was just selected, they had to pass the test.

01:06:11.120 - 01:06:52.400

They were, what's my word? pass to be on team A. To qualify? To qualify for, because at this point, the University of Denver, and I don't understand them, they have this youth hockey program, they have three sheets of ice that can be used for, and they have their own college team, granted.

01:06:53.500 - 01:07:25.420

There's figure skaters that they are, but to give the preference to the kids. So this whole bunch, DU still has a team, but it doesn't qualify from what they left behind, because The new, Littleton, the new, and there are three boys that are thicker than, they just love one another.

01:07:25.430 - 01:07:37.580

And I hate to see a day where they might be separated. They've been now for several years together. Is John a grandchild? John is a grandchild.

01:07:38.380 - 01:07:47.080

You're very proud of him. Very. And the girls too. Okay, who are the girls?

01:07:47.080 - 01:08:01.800

Alex and Sydney. Girls, both. With boys' names. And what are they busy doing, the two girls? They're in school now. In college?

01:08:02.280 - 01:08:27.180

No. A freshman and a sophomore. Right. In East High School, which is the best high school in Denver. They were supposed to go, their area is South High, but that reputation is not there, but

01:08:27.260 - 01:08:39.400

they're both in East High, which is good. - Good. - Do you want to switch that out while I? Switch it out.

01:08:40.380 - 01:08:55.720

- See there? - And well, Alex is about a head taller than I am and legs that are absolutely gorgeous. And her sister is coming close there.

01:08:55.800 - 01:09:04.040

I mean, she had to take the bitter end for a little while now. Are they both from the same family? Yeah.

01:09:04.660 - 01:09:22.560

Okay. What do you feel the legacy of the Wassons people? Oh, the fact that they opened the can of worms, they called it maggots, whatever, they opened the gate for gals to fly.

01:09:24.220 - 01:10:03.460

Dodie, of all the things that you have done, you've done quite a few things, what is the one thing that you are most proud of? Well, the fact that my license number is less than Jackie's. In looking ahead, when children will be watching this video of you, what advice would you give

01:10:03.580 - 01:10:14.380

to children in future generations that might encourage them to succeed? To succeed, not just to fly. Not just to fly, no. In any endeavor.

01:10:17.120 - 01:10:34.380

What would you tell them? Oh, that's a hard one. That's where I'm not very smart. Well, why do you think you succeeded doing something that no women had ever done before?

01:10:34.620 - 01:10:50.040

Why did you succeed? Because I wanted to, I guess, because I wanted to. And do you think that same drive, if they want to, bad enough? Yes, definitely.

01:10:53.760 - 01:11:16.940

Is there anything that you would like to say to your grandchildren that might encourage them to excel? Oh, the thing that comes to mind is to go for it. Whatever it is, go for it.

01:11:19.440 - 01:11:51.980

I don't know, that's not very sharp. Kelly: Is there anything that you would like to say or any story that you would like to tell, anything that we've left out that you would like to have on this tape? No, I think you've done good by me on everything.

01:11:53.640 - 01:12:17.120

Let me ask you this one last thing. As you know, the WASP history was left out of the history books. What is your opinion of this effort to get that history into the educational system so that people all over the world actually will learn the history of the WASP?

01:12:17.580 - 01:12:26.700

How do you feel about that? I didn't know that it wasn't. Was it purposely left out? Who put the kibosh on it?

01:12:27.080 - 01:12:42.440

I mean, who said no? I don't know. ever seen any part of the WASP history in a history book? Not in so-called in a history book, but I have quite a few books.

01:12:44.040 - 01:12:53.920

But do children study those books? No, I mean they aren't from... This is geared completely toward kids. Education.

01:12:56.560 - 01:13:11.740

And we thank you so much for sharing your story with children of future generations so they will learn about your history and the history of the WASP. Well, I don't think I did very good. You did great.

01:13:13.020 - 01:13:20.320

Thank you so much. Well, you're very, very welcome. Okay. And you look marvelous.

01:13:21.260 - 01:13:25.520

I do? Yes. What are you doing, peeking? (laughing)

01:13:28.120 - 01:13:38.840

- Now that wasn't hard, was it? - No, no it wasn't. Well, it helped you asking the questions. - Well, I was just guiding you, you know?

01:13:39.400 - 01:13:47.820

It's the answers that are important, not the questions. - Yeah, well, my answers weren't so hard. - That's all right, you thought about it. You thought about 'em, and that's important,

01:13:48.280 - 01:13:55.480

that you be able to think about it. - I should've had that piece of paper here with me. I think I could have done better.