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>> I believe we're fixing to go live, are we? >> Are we? >> Yeah. >> We are now?

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>> Live from Lubbock, Texas. >> [LAUGH] >> Ready? I'm Deanie Parrish.

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We're in the home of Jo Myers in Lubbock, Texas. She was a WASP class 43-5. Today is the 19th of September, 2000. Okay, Jo, if you'll start off by telling us your name and your birth date and

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your family. >> Yeah, Jo Myers and my married name is Wheelis. And what else did I need? >> And where you were born and where- >> Born in Wiley, Texas.

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And my parents lived in Royce City, Texas. And my mother was visiting her family when I was born. And so then my family, they had three girls. And we were, I'm gonna give that about the birthdays.

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We were each born on the 13th of a month, different months. And we had 13 letters in our names. And our last name started with the 13th letter in the alphabet, the M. And so we're not superstitious.

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>> And tell me your sister's names. >> This sister that lives next door to me is Creon, I'll have to spell that, C-R-E-O-N. So, cuz not many people know about that. And then the other one is Edna Earl, she lives in Corsicana.

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>> Okay, when you were growing up, Jo, what did your dad do? >> Well, he was on his, we lived out on, and he worked on his father's farm. >> Great, what did he grow on that farm? >> Cotton, mostly, a little grain.

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>> Okay, what are your earliest remembrances of living on the farm? Describe that. >> Well, him letting us ride between the horses on the tongue of the wagon and the equipment that he rode, and I can remember things like that.

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>> Mm-hm. >> Out on the farm at that time, did you have electricity and water? >> No, we didn't have electricity, no, we had well water, well water and lamps. >> Right, tell me about some of your chores.

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>> I don't remember a whole bunch of that, but just whatever was available. I mean, what they wanted us to do, and we'd go out sometimes when they were picking cotton and watch them do that, and that was way, way back when we were very little.

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Of course, I started school while we lived out there. >> Okay, did you have a pony? >> Well, we had horses, yeah, but I wasn't much on riding at that time. I have since then.

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>> Okay, did you have some livestock? Did you have a cow? >> Yes, had a cow, mm-hm. >> Do you remember learning to milk that cow?

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>> Well, yeah, learning how you shouldn't. [LAUGH] And yeah, I learned about rattlesnakes, cuz we girls, folks came in from the field one day and saw us looking at something. And it was a rattlesnake, and they told us all about how to leave those alone.

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And yeah, we had cats and dogs, and cows and horses, things like that. >> And chickens? >> Yeah, chickens, mm-hm, and hogs. >> Do you remember going out and collecting the eggs?

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>> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Sure do. >> How far out from town did you live?

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>> I think we were three miles then out from town. >> And tell me about your earliest recollections of school. >> Well, I really didn't try to remember a whole bunch of that. I remember I played basketball in high school, but-

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>> In elementary school. >> And that was elementary, I don't remember a whole lot about that. >> Do you remember any of your teachers in elementary? >> No, I haven't tried to.

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>> How did you get to school? >> [LAUGH] I think we walked a lot, and then they'd take us sometimes. But that wasn't far, kids walked a lot then. It was not unusual.

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>> How did you- >> They don't now, cuz they're afraid to. >> How did you spend your vacations? >> Well, wherever we went, like we came out here to Silverton one time to

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watch to my father's brother. And I remember seeing that Cap Rock coming up. It was in a four open, four door Model T. And I remember us coming out in that.

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And we were young then, that was probably at the age in would be elementary. But it didn't have anything to do with school. But that's one thing that impressed me. I didn't know I was gonna live up here, but then.

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>> Tell me about your grandparents, Jo. >> Well, one grandparent, my mother's father, died before I was born. And then my grandmother on that side moved into Dallas and

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lived with a daughter, and I remember her. But not anything particular about them. And then on my daddy's side, I remember when his father passed away. My sister and I were standing at the door watching, he was at home.

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And that's the first person we ever watched pass away. And then his mother lived to be over 100. And she was quite cantankerous. [LAUGH] She had her way and that's the way it was gonna be.

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But they taught us, my family taught me well. I had good training and their fellowship with us. Wherever they went, we went, and no babysitting. And so we appreciate that now.

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We have profited from it. >> Did you visit your grandmother? >> Yeah, we were fairly close. >> Describe what a Christmas was like when you were a young child.

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>> Well, there's only one that I can remember very well. Is that our daddy and somebody else and somebody's children, I don't remember who, they put us in a car and drove us out somewhere to look at something, and then the women put up the Christmas tree while we were gone.

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[LAUGH] And that's about the only thing I remember about Christmas. I mean, there's just certain things I remember and I don't others. I don't know why, I just file away certain things in my mind and then I forget the other things.

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>> When you finished elementary, was the junior high or did you just have- >> We didn't have just elementary and high school. >> Were they all in the same building? >> Mm-hm.

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>> Okay, let's talk about high school. What were your ambitions? >> Well, I played a little tennis up there, but for ambitions I don't know that I had any particular plans.

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Nothing had impressed me at that time to consider, and I don't think then that we thought about our future as much as kids plan now. I may be wrong, but I believe that we didn't, because I don't remember it being pressed on me, and ask, what do you wanna do?

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I don't think the, it just came along and did what you wanted to or what came up. >> During that particular time in our history, what were girls, what were the avenues that were even open to young women getting out of high school as far as work?

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>> Well, to go to work in stores or to be a teacher, there just wasn't a whole lot at that time to be available. >> Right, when you were in high school, do you remember any special teacher in high school that might have influenced you?

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>> No, I know a lot of people do, they have people that, teachers they remember. But I really don't have anyone that I particularly remembered that impressed me to where I'd stay in my mind the rest of my life. >> What was your favorite subject in high school?

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>> Well, I don't know that I dwelled on anything. I took Latin and math and all of them. And I didn't, in speech, I took speech. And we did little plays and things, but nothing really.

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I just didn't have my mind made up for anything then, and I just wasn't looking forward too much at that time. >> I was gonna ask you about things other than just your regular course, for example, speech.

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Did they have a drama department at your school? >> Not as such. They had us get up and make presentations in the class, and like that. And that really didn't, evidently didn't stick with me too well,

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because I wasn't really impressed with doing that. But I enjoyed my school and my fellow classmates. And I still know some of them now that are still living. And, but it, I don't know, it was just more freedom at that time,

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I think, to think what you wanted to and do what you wanted to as a child. I don't remember what all. >> Right, do you remember any other outside activities, any kind of sports that you participated in, or music, or band, or?

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>> No, that tennis, and then with out where we lived, while I was still in high school, I lived most of the time out there on the farm. And then we moved into town, and my father did some work in town at that time. I enjoyed the animals out there, and

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the farm, I remember it very well, what all went on. And it was good education for me, it was really to have gone through that. >> Right, was it a let down to you when you moved into town? Were you disappointed that you didn't get to stay?

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>> Well, it was a change, but we all accepted it and went along pretty good. And I think I was in town a couple of years before I graduated from high school, and then we moved into Dallas. >> Okay, while you were in high school,

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were you involved in any religious training during that time at all? >> No, I think I may have helped with the newspaper and some of that work. But as far as religion, it wasn't brought out in any way, it wasn't prominent in school.

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>> Right, but as far as your family, church activities, were you involved in any of those? >> Yes, they took us to some school church every Sunday. >> Okay, do you remember the name of that church?

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>> It was the Baptist Church, I don't remember the name of it other than the Baptist Church. >> But it was a part of your upbringing? >> Yes, it definitely was.

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>> Okay, tell me about your social activities when you were in high school. Did you date? >> Well, yes, a little, but I don't have any particular boyfriend that I remember when I was in there.

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But I just wasn't that social minded, I guess you'd say at that time. And I just wasn't looking for anything permanent. I don't know whether I was old enough or what. But I just didn't, I know my oldest sister had her special boyfriend.

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But she was a little over two years older than me. So I watched her and her activities, learned a lot. But no, I didn't have anybody special. See, I think Woodrow Wilson, where I went to high school,

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I think Davey O'Brien was a prominent football player at that time. And so I think he's moved to West Texas or did, I think he may have passed away by now. But he was our special football player. >> I wanted to ask you about football games.

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Did you enjoy attending those games? Was that real special? >> Once in a while, we did go a lot. No, we had a lot of church activity when we went to Dallas.

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And stayed in there and did things in the church and social activities that went along in summer camps, stuff like that. >> Do you remember any special summer camp? Where did you go?

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>> Well, we went up into Oklahoma one time. And I don't remember the name of the place, but it was famous for, it had falls, waterfalls, and it was famous for summer camping. >> Was that a church camp?

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>> It was a church camp. >> Okay, do you remember your high school prom? Did you go there? >> Yes, yes.

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But I don't remember it as being real important to me. But yes, we had the prom. >> Do you remember, did your mother sew a lot of your clothes? >> Yes, she did.

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She sewed most all of them. And she was a real good seamstress. She dressed us well. >> Tell me about your high school graduation.

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Did you have caps and gowns? >> I don't think so. If we did, I don't remember it. That's been a long time ago.

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And that's in 1936, so that's, we may have, but I don't remember it if we did. >> Do you remember anything special about graduation, a baccalaureate? >> No, I really don't. We always had a service in the church before.

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Is that baccalaureate where we have that, I think? And I remember going to my big sister's one more than I do my own. But I remember that. >> When you, after you graduate from high school,

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then what did you do that summer, for example? What did you go on to do then? >> Well, I got a little job at a five and dime store. And worked there for a while.

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And then the next year after I graduated, the next year or two, I married. And- >> Tell me about, what was it about that particular boy that attracted you to him? What were his qualities?

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>> We were in church together. And I don't, he just looked nice and seemed like a good person, and that's what I remember about him. >> Do you remember how your mom and dad felt about you getting married that young?

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How old were you? >> Well, I'd be about, I think I was 18. They were very good about not overly accepting our under. They let us do kind of what we wanted, or what they thought we wanted.

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And the wedding wasn't, didn't bother them. They went right along. >> Where were you married? >> In Dallas, at a church.

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>> As you girls were growing up, what were the rules that your mom and dad kind of laid out for you girls as far as dating or any other kind of rules? >> Well, like I said, I learned a lot from my big sister, and she did all the things she shouldn't have done.

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[LAUGH] And so we learned what not to do, my little sister and I did. And, but it was, that part of my life, it's a little hard for me to have too many thoughts about it.

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Because that was a long time ago. >> [LAUGH] >> I don't know if this is reasonable, but I enjoyed my school and all the things I did,

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I'm sure, because I don't remember any bad things. >> That's great. >> And what I did was went along with the right way to live, and my parents guided us, and they were just real, they trained us.

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They told us what to do, I mean, what was right and wrong. And then it was up to us to go from there, and they let us do it that way. >> Great. At your wedding, was it kind of a formal wedding?

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>> Well, kind of half formal, I mean, it wasn't a great big one, no. >> Right, but your dad was there to give you a wedding. >> Yeah, mm-hm. >> Okay, and after your wedding, then what did you do?

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Did you move away? >> No, I lived there in Dallas, and my husband's family had a moving and storage warehouse. And I worked down there in their office for a while.

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And then I lived with him five years, and then we divorced. And I went to work for a bakery there in Dallas. And I think I went to work for the bakery before we divorced, I believe. And then I continued.

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And then I went on to move on later on to some other work. And- >> After your divorce, did you move back home? >> Yes, I did, I moved back with my parents.

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And they were very, everything was fine. I mean, they made home comfortable for me. And that's what I can remember is a good life with them and their teaching. And we just went ahead and- >> And they were just supportive of you.

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>> Yes, very supportive. They always have, always were. >> That's great. >> Till the day they died.

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>> Right. >> Jo, do you remember where you were and how you felt when you heard about Pearl Harbor? >> Well, you see, my oldest sister had married and her husband had

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gone into the Navy and was at Pearl Harbor when all that happened. And so we had to find out if he was okay. So that was the most impression I would get from it. And it was, what are they doing bombing Pearl Harbor?

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So naturally, we were against Japan. >> And was he okay? >> Yes, yes, he was fine. He was there and he remembers it all, but he was not injured, no.

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>> How did World War II affect your family? Beside the one brother-in-law who was involved? As far as rationing or- >> Yeah, we had gas rationing. And when I went to Sweetwater for training in this,

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I had to use gas coupons. So I don't know how long that rationing, when it started or when it stopped, but we did have it after we went into World War II. >> Let me ask you, your first remembrance of seeing an airplane?

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>> First remembrance of what? >> Of an airplane. >> When I was married the first time, my husband and I took training and got our private license.

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>> Why did you decide to take training to fly? >> I think it's because he was interested in it. It's about the only memory I have of it, and to decide. And it stuck with me.

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>> [LAUGH] >> Did you know any other girls who were flying? >> Yes, yes, some of those out there, and I got to know others real well. And we had quite a group, and we'd go for breakfast hops from one town to another.

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And it was a nice fellowship. It was very good. >> Tell me about learning to fly. Were you and your husband both taking instructions from the same instructor?

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>> I think so. I'm not- >> Which one of you soloed first? >> I don't know. He might have been or I might, I do not remember that.

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>> Tell me about your first solo. Do you remember that? >> Not very well, but I do remember it just a little. Taking off all by myself and all, but it worked out fine.

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So I just went on from there. >> What did you have in mind when you started learning to fly? Did you have a goal in mind? Were you gonna teach flying or?

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>> No, I didn't have any of that. See, I was married and I was playing golf. My husband and I played golf, and we had other interests, but the flying, it just attracted me, so I just stayed with it.

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>> What kind of golfer were you? >> Well, at that time, I wasn't just real good, but later on I did win some tournaments and played pretty well. I went across the country, East Coast, West Coast, and played.

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>> Tell me about one of those tournaments. >> Well, there's one that sticks in my mind. It's a Trans-Mississippi that they had in San Francisco, and there was a woman there from Hawaii that wanted to play, is gonna play.

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And do you know the American women objected to that? Thought she shouldn't because she's too far away from there, that she wasn't on the shores of America. But she played and played well, so

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we had some good and bad experiences in golf. I enjoyed my golf. This is the way I felt about it. Once you get off that first tee, now this was years ago,

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there were no cell phones, and it felt free. It gives you a freedom. Get off that tee and nobody out there can pin you down on anything or touch you. You're just fine.

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And beautiful green grass, and the golf courses are real nice. And it's real good for youngsters to learn to play golf, as well as older people. They can play as long as they can walk. Now they can ride a cart.

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So it's good exercise, and it's good for the clean mind. I think a sports person, aviation, golf, tennis, anything. I just think people mostly are all very clear thinking. They're good sports, and it's just good to know them.

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>> When you were on this tournament circuit from the east coast to the west coast, would you all travel together? >> No, no. Usually, if someone from my town was going, we'd get in a car.

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If not, I would drive. It would be by car mostly. >> And your husband supported you in doing that? >> Well, at that time, see, I was divorced by the time this golf tournament came along.

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My family supported me. >> [LAUGH] Tell me about the one tournament you won, or did you win more than one? >> Yeah, Rancho Hills Country Club in Odessa, in Midland, I'm sorry. That's one I won, and the others, some of them I'd run second.

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I got a silver bowl in San Francisco in that tournament. I was a runner-up in something, I don't remember now what flight or what, but I wasn't in the championship flight. But I played pretty good, and then I kept playing golf.

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And I played in Fort Worth, at Rivercrest, and Country Club, in Odessa, Midland, and Dallas. And a lot of the towns I played golf in across the country. >> And did you keep playing tennis at all?

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>> No, after high school I didn't. I did not continue with tennis. >> When did you take up bowling? >> When I was married the first time, I took up bowling.

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And then I won the Dallas Women's Single Tournament in 1942. That was a year before I went into the WASP. And I was bowling good then. But, and I stayed with it even after I came back out of the WASP.

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I still bowled. And when I moved to, I lived in Odessa first, and then Midland, and back to Dallas. And I played some pretty good tournaments and enjoyed it.

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It was good fellowship. And my sister, my youngest sister played with me. The oldest sister never did. But she participated.

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She came and watched me play. They all rooted for me, particularly when I won that Dallas singles. >> Did your mom and dad ever see you playing golf? >> No, they didn't see me play golf.

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>> Okay. When you started learning to fly, what did your mom and dad think about that? >> Well, they of course weren't too fond of it. But they wanted me to do what I wanted to do, and they went ahead.

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>> Did you- >> [SOUND] >> Want me to stop? >> We're rolling again. >> Okay.

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In bowling, tell me, what is the highest gain you've ever had? >> Well, a 300 is a perfect gain. But no, I didn't quite get to that. And 600 is for the series, let's see, yeah.

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600 is the top for the series. And anyway, 600 is a good score. But I bowled some real good ones, or I wouldn't have won that city, I'll tell you.

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I bowled down here in Odessa when I moved down here, too. >> Are you still bowling? >> No. >> Okay.

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>> Those balls are a little heavy, and I just don't think I could. I bowled for until, I guess, maybe 15 years ago, something like that. Enjoyed it. >> Jo, when is the first time that you remember

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that you knew about a training program for women? >> Well, it could have been the end of '42 or the beginning of '43. I am not sure. >> At that time, were you still flying?

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>> Oh, once in a while, yeah, but not, I didn't own a plane at that time. Because I had divorced and the plane went with it. >> Okay. Had you owned, you and your husband owned your own plane?

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>> Yes, he gave me one for my birthday one day. >> Tell me about that. >> [LAUGH] >> You took it back.

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>> Well, I thought I was going to Fort Worth to get a new plane for somebody else. And then when I landed back at the field in Dallas, they told me it was mine. So that's the way I got it. >> Were you ever able to take your mom and dad up?

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>> They would go. Now, I think I've gotten both my sisters up, but mother and dad never did go with me, and I didn't push them. Because if they didn't feel safe, well, that's fine.

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I don't think they ever flew an airplane either. They never were in the air. >> When you heard about the flight training program for women, what did you do? >> Well, I evidently called and found out what to do.

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And we had to go to Fort Worth, and there was an office set up there to sign you up and check into whatever they needed you to. And then you had to take a fiscal. I went to Love Field in Dallas for that.

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And that was something because men weren't used to examining women. [LAUGH] So that was a new experience for them. But we went through that, and then they finally let me know that I had been

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accepted, and so then I went to Sweetwater in April, didn't I? Yeah. But just before I went there, I went up to Rhode Island with my youngest sister. Her husband-to-be was in the army and fixing to go overseas.

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So we rode a train, a sleeper, all the way up there and got her married. And then I came back through New York, and these people I had worked for in that bakery got me some tickets for some shows in New York. And then I came on back home and went to Sweetwater.

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>> Great. When you were flying privately before you went to Sweetwater, is there any incident that was outstanding in your mind that happened? Anything that would be unusual that happened to you?

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>> You mean as far as operating the aircraft? >> Yes. >> On any flight? >> No, everything seemingly went according to routine. I didn't have any, we also had breakfast hops that we'd go from

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Dallas to a town and go down there and then come back, and it was Sunday mornings. >> Would that be several airplanes? >> Yes. >> Describe one of those.

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>> Trips? >> Trips. Well, one of them, I can remember some people that were in the beer business in Dallas, I had a place down south of Dallas, and they had a landing strip. They had a golf course and everything.

00:31:42.320 - 00:31:58.720

So we went down there, and I remember that very differently. And we had other breakfast hops, but none of them stood out now to me. >> Have you remained friends with any of those people you flew with prior to the Wasp?

00:31:58.720 - 00:32:20.240

>> Not since I left Dallas, because I haven't been living back there for so long. I have, after I, when I married this second husband, I moved to Fort Stockton, and therefore I didn't have, now I was in contact with people in Odessa that had airplanes, but not in the Dallas group.

00:32:20.240 - 00:32:34.920

>> Describe for me your trip going out to Sweetwater. Did you know any other girls that were going? >> On that trip, no. Well, let's see, that girl, Lela Mather, lived in Dallas.

00:32:34.920 - 00:32:50.160

She went, and she was probably on, we went by train, and she was probably there with me. >> What were your expectations for this training program? What did you think you would do afterwards, if you made it?

00:32:50.160 - 00:33:06.440

>> You mean where I'd be stationed? >> Or what activity would you be doing for the Army Air Force? >> Well, I really didn't know what was available, and I don't know that I would have chosen the Ferry Division, but

00:33:06.440 - 00:33:25.480

I was certainly glad I was put in it, instead of some of the training bases. I really, it was very educational, and I got to travel all over the country and take planes, east coast, west coast. And I'm very thankful that I did, but no, I don't, I just wanted to make good grades

00:33:25.480 - 00:33:40.480

in grade school, ground school, and be able to fly good. That was just what I was trying to do. >> Give me your first impressions of Avenger Field. Tell me what was going on.

00:33:40.480 - 00:33:52.080

>> It was a little more desolate looking than it is now. And we had real good sandstorms then, where you couldn't see one building from the other. But it was pretty barren, and

00:33:52.080 - 00:34:12.160

we didn't see much hope of having too much social life. >> Tell me about some of the people that were stationed there when you got there. >> Well, it was co-educational when we got there, including us, because there were some pilots had been in training there,

00:34:12.160 - 00:34:27.240

in the 318th Division. And they finally got them moved out, but they stayed for a while after we moved in. We were the first class, full class, to move into Sweetwater. >> And describe the barracks.

00:34:27.240 - 00:34:46.520

>> Well, it was just regular barracks, I guess. You had a bathroom between two bays, they were called. And we shared that. And then there was just a string of rooms, a string.

00:34:46.520 - 00:34:59.780

I mean, the building was kind of, and they had a little porch out on the front. And then you had a place where you could take a sun bath outside. But, and the boys always liked to look at that while they were still there.

00:34:59.780 - 00:35:14.300

But no, Sweetwater didn't impress me too much. I had never been to Sweetwater before, so other than going through there, traveling, you know. So it was something I wanted to do, and

00:35:14.300 - 00:35:28.440

I just accepted that I was gonna do it, and I just went ahead. >> Could you tell me about your bay mates? How were they selected? >> I don't know how they selected who went together.

00:35:28.440 - 00:35:47.120

But there were, I believe, was it five, six of us in there? And the girl from Dallas that was with me, she was in there. And then some of the others that I don't remember where they were from. I don't at the moment, don't remember their towns.

00:35:47.120 - 00:36:05.300

But we were just put in there, not by our choice. But we just accepted it, and went on. >> Could you describe for me some of your classmates that you remember? >> Well, I remember one that has had an illness, and

00:36:05.300 - 00:36:23.100

that's how night died, Jill McCormick. She's one of ours. And then there was another one, I was trying to remember her name, but I don't remember anything spectacular about them.

00:36:23.100 - 00:36:41.440

What they had done, or I mean, it hasn't stayed with me. I'd have to look it up and see what they did before they came in. But and why, how they got in contact with it, or how they started, how they learned about it, like I did.

00:36:41.440 - 00:36:48.940

>> Describe for me where you ate. >> Where we ate? >> And the food. >> In a mess hall.

00:36:48.940 - 00:37:03.660

[LAUGH] You ate what they gave you. [LAUGH] And we just, I mean, that kind of stuff, I more or less accepted that just what was coming in my lot, and I was gonna accept it and do it.

00:37:03.660 - 00:37:25.680

And it didn't bother me, I don't think, in any way. >> Could you describe what ground school was like in some of the courses? >> I made fairly good grades in ground school, and we did code, and we did math, and we did, I've forgotten now what all the courses were.

00:37:25.680 - 00:37:40.080

But it was so rigorous, and we had Link, the trainer, we had that in our ground school. And we had learned how to fly the airplane on instruments, you know, sitting on the ground.

00:37:40.080 - 00:37:56.300

[LAUGH] And that's what a Link trainer is. And everybody ought to try that sometime. It's quite an education. >> Take me through a day's schedule at Avenger.

00:37:56.300 - 00:38:12.620

>> Well, that little horn blows, wakes you up in the morning, and you get up and get out there, if you're not already awake, and you're supposed to be awake at a certain time. But then you line up outside and get accounted for, and you go to mess.

00:38:12.620 - 00:38:28.580

And then you go to whatever ground school or flight training you do. And of course, it's different every day. >> What were your uniforms like? >> Well, you'd see some pictures of them, and I had to wrap mine around me.

00:38:28.580 - 00:38:44.220

We had those zoot suits, we called them. They didn't fit us, but that's all we had. And then we wore white blouses and khaki breeches, I believe, until we got regular uniforms, because right at first we didn't have them.

00:38:44.220 - 00:38:59.420

And we had a set of wings, which was changed later. >> Tell me about your first solo. Who was your instructor? >> I don't remember.

00:38:59.420 - 00:39:10.140

I'd have to look in my log book. >> Do you remember your solo? >> What were you flying? >> Well, we had those BTs.

00:39:10.140 - 00:39:30.580

And one of my trainers, I'll tell you this, though, about it. He had me out flying, and all of a sudden he flipped us over, upside down flying, and he taught me how to fly upside down. And your controls change, and you, of course, wearing a safety belt.

00:39:30.580 - 00:39:41.340

And you got that on, to keep you from falling out of the airplane. But I remember that. >> Did you ever get nauseated when you were flying? >> Never what?

00:39:41.340 - 00:39:54.660

>> Get sick when you were flying? >> No, no. No, I had a sinus on my left side, sinus pocket get congested, and I had to stay off flying a few days till they punctured it and got some stuff out of it.

00:39:54.660 - 00:40:06.460

And when I did get back, I had to make up some flying time. So I took an 86 they gave me, and I flew up. Well, I flew all the way to 30,000 feet without oxygen. Didn't stay long.

00:40:06.460 - 00:40:15.260

I came right back down. I was over San Angelo. I looked down at that town. You can imagine the size of it that I was looking at from up there.

00:40:15.260 - 00:40:38.340

And I decided that I didn't even make a little spot on the earth, a little speck, so I had to make my own way, make my own speck. And so that has stuck with me, how that made me feel. And then only one other time I felt something like that is up going over,

00:40:38.340 - 00:40:51.100

taking off from Missoula, Montana. And I thought, now look, that's just before I left the service. I said, this is something. [LAUGH] And I decided, I felt about like I did then.

00:40:51.100 - 00:41:00.740

And I decided that's gonna be it. It's too much for me. >> Do you remember how you, whoops. >> Gonna need to stop.

00:41:00.740 - 00:41:11.660

If you wanna say that again. >> [LAUGH] >> About the fact that they loved you and they let you do. >> I'll ask you, why, are you rolling?

00:41:11.660 - 00:41:30.780

Why do you think your mom and dad didn't object to you leaving home and going out to fly in Sweetwater? >> Well, actually, I never did know what made them think like they did. But they were ready to, they taught us what was right and wrong.

00:41:30.780 - 00:41:45.020

And then they let us use our own judgment. And if we wanted to do something, they recognized whether we did or didn't, how serious. And they understood us, I guess, because they let us go ahead.

00:41:45.020 - 00:42:00.540

And they never did tell us we couldn't do something like the flying or bowling or something like that. And maybe you couldn't go to a certain place, maybe when you were real little, which was smart for them to guide us there.

00:42:00.540 - 00:42:14.700

But they were real inspiration. And all three girls were very still, very thankful of what they taught us and how they supported us. >> While you were in training,

00:42:14.700 - 00:42:34.900

do you remember, does one instructor stand out in your mind? >> No, we had civilian trainers. And none of their training made any impression on me that I would have remembered anybody for that, no.

00:42:34.900 - 00:42:57.300

>> What were the auxiliary fields for? >> Well, we'd go out and land there and have practice takeoffs and landings. And as far as I know, that's the main thing that they were for. >> During your training, did any of your bay mates wash out?

00:42:57.300 - 00:43:13.020

>> Yes, yes, the one from Dallas. >> Describe that for me, what that was like. >> Well, she wasn't very happy, which naturally she wouldn't be. But I think she's the only one in our bay that did wash out.

00:43:13.020 - 00:43:26.620

But she was very sad, and I visited her after we got home in Dallas. She lived in Dallas. But it was just, we felt sorry for her, but there wasn't anything we could do about it, because their word was it.

00:43:26.620 - 00:43:41.060

And she was a small person in stature. And so she probably just, I don't know why they washed her out. I was never told. >> During your training, were you given some time off, weekends?

00:43:41.060 - 00:43:57.500

Or was there time between primary and basic to check time off, and what did you do? >> Well, one time, like you all have seen some pictures of us in Dallas, and that was something, I was a real good liar.

00:43:57.500 - 00:44:12.260

I told them my aunt had died or something, I've forgotten now. And they let me go. And I don't know how the other girls got off, but they did. Some way, that whole table, as you saw the picture, they all came to Dallas.

00:44:12.260 - 00:44:26.940

And we went to the office hotel and had this big dinner and everything. And I think it's Frank Sinatra who was singing there at that time. So it's been a long time ago. But we'd have little get togethers, and

00:44:26.940 - 00:44:44.820

I'd go back to Dallas usually when I had a weekend off where I could. But I don't know, I guess some never left, I don't know. >> Describe your instrument training. >> That was quite interesting, yes.

00:44:44.820 - 00:45:05.140

I went to St. Joseph, Missouri for that. And I trained in a B-25 and I guess, did we have DC-3s or C-47s then? I think one of those, both of them were twin engine. And on the B-25, on one of my takeoffs, they cut an engine,

00:45:05.140 - 00:45:19.020

which they do in the training, that's part of it. And I didn't know it was gonna be that way. They didn't warn us, we just did it. And it was quite, well, I'm very, very glad that I got the training.

00:45:19.020 - 00:45:26.180

It was very good. >> Do you know how long that lasted? How long the course was? >> Mm-mm.

00:45:26.180 - 00:45:44.220

Maybe six weeks or a month, I don't remember something like that. >> While you were in training in Sweetwater, did you get instrument training under the hood there? >> I don't know whether we did or not.

00:45:44.220 - 00:46:00.220

I've forgotten that. I've been thinking about it since we've been talking about link trainers. But I think it was in the instrument school where I got the link training, mostly. >> What airplanes did you fly in training at Sweetwater?

00:46:00.220 - 00:46:15.820

>> Well, the BTs in primary, the 19, that's open cockpit. And then the 19, wasn't it? 17, 19, anyway, it had canopies on it. It was in the one set of training.

00:46:15.820 - 00:46:32.260

And then the 86 and the 20-inch in Cessna that they had out there at that time. I had those. >> While you were in that open cockpit, what did you do about your hair? >> Well, you had a helmet on, and that's all.

00:46:32.260 - 00:46:40.740

>> Even in the summertime, did you wear a helmet? >> I don't remember. >> Okay. >> I don't remember.

00:46:40.740 - 00:46:58.180

>> Okay. In the twin engine, describe the training you got in twin engine. Would you go with another trainee or- >> An instructor would fly with you, and then they'd give you a co-pilot trainee.

00:46:58.180 - 00:47:14.100

And one time, I got one of the girls flying with me. And I was in the twin engine Cessna. I wasn't supposed to come further than Abilene. I flew on to Dallas and buzzed my old airport.

00:47:14.100 - 00:47:30.580

[LAUGH] And they knew who it was, they could tell. And that you naturally remember things you do that you shouldn't do. Those things stick out. >> Could you describe for me any cross countries that you might have made while

00:47:30.580 - 00:47:47.460

you were in training? >> Well, we just go to different. No, we didn't do a whole lot of cross country other than the auxiliary fields. And there was one up north of Abilene that we went to quite often.

00:47:47.460 - 00:47:59.780

And I don't remember the name of that town. But no, we didn't do a lot of cross country. >> When you did do cross country, what kind of navigational equipment did you use?

00:48:01.580 - 00:48:19.180

>> Well, you just have to check your weather and the map. Well, you read your map and it'll tell you. It's an aviation navigation map. And then of course, we didn't, let's see, did we have radios, I guess?

00:48:19.180 - 00:48:34.540

No, some of them we did. And you have to learn the code to see which side of the line you're on, which is drawn on this map. And so, well, that was about the only help we had.

00:48:34.540 - 00:48:52.340

>> While you were in training, were any of the trainees killed? >> Yes, yes, we had two from my class, at least two. We may have had another one, I don't remember. But they were flying, they were night flying.

00:48:52.340 - 00:49:09.700

Well, it's kind of not too far out cross country, but it was night flying and they did crash. And they were together with an instructor. I think they were with an instructor, and they were flying at night.

00:49:09.700 - 00:49:25.380

>> How did that affect you? >> Well, it all made us stop and think, and be more careful. I don't guess that it, being as they weren't family members or something real close to me, those two weren't.

00:49:25.380 - 00:49:44.540

It didn't affect me more than saying, now look, we can't have that happen. We've got to be careful. >> Do you recall what kind of recognition they got or what kind of help their families received when they were killed?

00:49:44.540 - 00:50:02.300

>> Well, they didn't receive anything, because we were just civilians at that time. And they had to even pay their own burial and everything. >> What were your expectations as far as militarization was concerned?

00:50:02.300 - 00:50:21.100

>> Well, I didn't know whether or not I wanted it or not. Whether I would want it if it was offered, but I understood that we were gonna be mutilized. And we never were at that time, while we were there, it did not continue.

00:50:21.100 - 00:50:36.620

So I was getting enough military with what I was doing, because we complied with military rules and regulations. And so we had our good taste of it. We knew what it was like already, if we went in.

00:50:36.620 - 00:50:56.820

>> While you were in training, the class above you graduated. How did that graduation affect you? >> Well, I think, wasn't it the class three that was the first one to graduate at Sweetwater, I believe?

00:50:56.820 - 00:51:14.060

And they flew up from Houston, and we had that graduation pretty shortly after we were there, after we checked in. So it was impressive. We said, that's what we wanna do, and we wanna graduate too.

00:51:15.860 - 00:51:32.900

>> As new classes would come in, how did your class feel about those new classes coming in? Did you play little tricks on them? >> No, I wasn't a part of any of that.

00:51:32.900 - 00:51:53.940

Now, when somebody soloed, we dumped them in the fountain. But I didn't participate in any, if there was any of it, I didn't do any of it. And I didn't see any of it that impressed me. >> Describe for me your graduation.

00:51:53.940 - 00:52:10.060

>> Well, my family came out. [LAUGH] And then it was, see, we still didn't have permanent uniforms. We were still wearing those white blouses and khaki breeches, and the little cap, and that's all.

00:52:10.060 - 00:52:23.580

That was in a uniform kind. But no, it was very impressive, and then to find out where we were gonna go. It was interesting, I wanted to go to Dallas, of course, cuz I was from Dallas, but that's probably why I didn't get to go there.

00:52:23.580 - 00:52:36.260

And so they just sent me to Michigan, up in the coal country. >> Which members of your family came? >> Well, my parents and my sisters came. Yeah, that was a big deal.

00:52:36.260 - 00:52:53.220

My little sister's a big photographer, and she took all kinds of pictures. She has a lot more than I have of it. >> While you were in training, did someone come to take film of the training program?

00:52:53.220 - 00:53:03.260

>> Yes. >> Describe it. >> It was newsreels at that time, no TV. And they came out and spent several days taking pictures of us while we were out.

00:53:03.260 - 00:53:16.980

It was July or August, one or the other, of 43. And then we graduated in September. But there's a lot of pictures taken, and we were on a lot of newsreels, and it got pretty well advertised at that time.

00:53:16.980 - 00:53:30.940

>> Were you in some of those newsreels? >> Yeah, a bunch of the newsreels, yeah. And in the stuff they took, yeah, the pictures. There's a documentary that I have that was taken at that time,

00:53:30.940 - 00:53:42.300

made from those pictures. And I'm in it a lot. I'm in it a little bit in all the other documentaries I've seen, that I've had copies of.

00:53:42.300 - 00:54:01.020

>> Do you know if your family were ever able to see that newsreel? >> Yeah, my little sister that was living in Washington at the time, when I had done, was bumming a ride. I had a few days off to go visit her in Washington.

00:54:01.020 - 00:54:18.180

I had gotten to Wilmington, Delaware, and Nancy Love was down there. So I was bumming a ride, and she said, well, I'll take you to Washington. She has a single engine plane, twin engine, that she was flying. It was the one that signed her up.

00:54:18.180 - 00:54:34.700

She unscrewed the plate on the side of the plane and stuffed me up in there and flew me to Dulles Airport in Washington, and then drove me to my sister's house. She was real sweet of her. >> Needless to say, tell me your opinion of Nancy Hartman's love.

00:54:35.980 - 00:54:53.540

>> Well, my opinion of her will be a little contrary to a lot of them. I'll list her above Jackie Cochran. I just like her conduct of herself, her attitude, and the way she went about things.

00:54:53.540 - 00:55:11.460

I just liked it, and I'm glad that she chose me for, I guess she had something to do with choosing me, to go to the Ferrying Division, and I was certainly thankful. >> Do you remember getting your orders and how you felt about those orders? >> Yeah, I was unhappy cuz I didn't go to Dallas.

00:55:11.460 - 00:55:27.780

[LAUGH] That was my only bad feeling. But then they gave us a few days, and I went by home and told them what I was gonna do, and then I went to Michigan. >> So did you go with your parents back home on the train?

00:55:27.780 - 00:55:38.580

>> No, I don't think so. They drove out, I'm sure. I don't remember, but I'm sure they did. And I don't think we were allowed to leave right then.

00:55:38.580 - 00:55:59.660

I don't remember. >> Okay, while you were in training, were there any incidents that you would stand out that you would like to tell us about, anything unusual that happened? >> Well, I told you that about flying up over San Angelo.

00:55:59.660 - 00:56:15.860

That was the most outstanding that I can remember, and then coming to Dallas on Buzz Lightyear Airport. But nothing that other than us putting up with the male pilots that wanted to land out there, and then come over and

00:56:15.860 - 00:56:28.900

try to fly over when we were having a night flying, which was dangerous. But nothing really came as a result of that, nothing bad. It was just that they were being nosy. >> Since you were there in the summertime and it was really hot,

00:56:28.900 - 00:56:44.580

how did you compensate for that heat at night? >> Well, you just had a bay with nothing but open windows, and you just put up with it. >> I've seen some pictures of girls outside with their cots.

00:56:44.580 - 00:56:56.220

Did you do that? >> Yeah, we had cots, and we could. Yeah, we could sleep outside if we wanted to. >> For your graduation, do you remember any of the celebrities or

00:56:56.220 - 00:57:08.100

the generals who attended your graduation? >> No, I have a book of all that, a record of it, but I don't remember, no. >> Okay, who gave you your wings? >> Who what?

00:57:08.100 - 00:57:28.260

>> Who gave you your wings? >> Well, I got a diploma, and I guess they pinned my wings on then. I'm sure, I didn't try to remember. >> Could you describe your wings for me, and who paid for those wings?

00:57:28.260 - 00:57:47.660

>> Well, those, we didn't pay for them individually. It was 318th Air Force Detachment, and that's what was on the wings then. And then later on, we got our special wings, and we got those. They're copyrighted now.

00:57:49.140 - 00:57:58.060

>> And later on, when you got the diamond-shaped wings in the middle, did you wear both sets of wings then? >> No. >> And which wings did you prefer?

00:57:58.060 - 00:58:05.500

>> The diamond one. Well, I don't think we had a choice. I think we were supposed to wear the diamond one. It was to replace the other one.

00:58:05.500 - 00:58:21.820

I may be wrong on that, I don't know. >> Okay, when you went home, then how long did you have at home before you had to report to Romulus? >> I don't remember.

00:58:21.820 - 00:58:43.420

>> Okay, do you know then how you got to Romulus? Were there other trainees also assigned to Romulus with you from your class? >> Yeah, I think so, but I'm not sure who they were right now. >> Okay, when you arrived at Romulus, to whom did you report?

00:58:44.860 - 00:58:58.500

>> To the WASP that was head of our squadron or whatever it was called at that time. >> And then where were you assigned to live? >> We had living quarters there on the base.

00:58:58.500 - 00:59:19.180

>> Describe those. >> It was just a plain old, I guess, four or five bed room for us. And then we went down to the regular mess hall to eat. And it wasn't the best living quarters, but it was sufficient at that time.

00:59:19.180 - 00:59:34.740

>> Did you have roommates? >> Yeah, there were several beds in each cots, where they really were. In each, I don't know if they called them bays up there or not, but anyway, that's where we lived, several of us in one room.

00:59:34.740 - 00:59:55.540

>> Were there also nurses, would be nurses quarters or? >> Not especially for us, but we got attention at the hospital when we needed it. And women, I don't remember if there was women attending to us, they probably had some, I'm sure.

00:59:55.540 - 01:00:18.460

But not in our group, not in our buildings. >> How were you received at Romulus as far as the WAF who was in charge of you and the male pilots? >> Well, just like everywhere else, a lot of them objected to us and some didn't.

01:00:18.460 - 01:00:41.180

A lot of them wanted to date us and some didn't. So it was just kind of, you just have to go along with it and do the best you can. And we had officers club privileges, so we could go in there. >> What was your very first assignment at Romulus?

01:00:41.180 - 01:00:58.700

>> I don't remember. >> Did they start out by checking you out in different airlines? >> Yes, I had, it was checked out in everything that I had flown previously or that they thought I would be flying, they checked me out.

01:00:58.700 - 01:01:11.300

>> And at that point, were some girls washed out and sent to other places, or how did that work? >> I really don't know that part of it. I didn't keep track of it.

01:01:11.300 - 01:01:26.020

And I'm sure there probably would be some that, maybe not immediately, but down the road, would not be qualified for, or maybe not be qualified for certain planes. They might just be able to go in certain ones.

01:01:26.020 - 01:01:47.260

>> Do you remember one of the early ferrying jobs that you had? >> Well, like flying that Russian plane to Great Falls, Montana, and their pilots picking it up. And then I get P-51s out of Long Beach or Dallas and take to the East Coast.

01:01:47.260 - 01:02:01.100

And then dismantle the English Bulls Island and ship them overseas. That was on the Lend-Lease Program. >> Okay, do you remember any particular trip to Great Falls? Did you meet any of the Russian pilots?

01:02:01.100 - 01:02:13.420

>> No, I did not. >> And describe for me a ferrying trip from the time you left. What would you take with you? >> Well, you couldn't take much because there wasn't room.

01:02:13.420 - 01:02:30.940

In most of the planes I was ferrying, there was not room to carry much. Like on the pursuit planes, you could unscrew a little label on the side and put a little small bag in there. And maybe you'd get a shirt and your cosmetics, whatever you had to have.

01:02:30.940 - 01:02:49.020

And then your parachute, and that's about all that you could take. So you just didn't have, you couldn't take anything. >> Was there ever a flight when you would have to land at another air base because of weather?

01:02:49.020 - 01:03:11.740

>> No, I was on one flight in a P-51 going to Newark, New Jersey. And I took off from St. Louis, from somewhere in Missouri, and going on. And there's a male pilot in another plane going through at the same time,

01:03:11.740 - 01:03:26.340

same place I was going. And he wound up 20,000, 30,000 feet. It sucked him up, because it'll do that in storms. And I was flying real low, and I let my wing drip, dip over Indianapolis.

01:03:26.340 - 01:03:38.620

And I looked, there were those buildings. So I jumped back up in the clouds and flew on instruments, and wasn't supposed to in that airplane. And I went on and got on into New Jersey, it'd be just about dark.

01:03:38.620 - 01:03:57.580

>> What was the most unusual trip that you made when you were ferrying? >> Well, I don't know, it'd be unusual, but the first thing that popped in my mind, there was a trip that a bunch of us made to Canada, taking airplanes to a training base up there.

01:03:57.580 - 01:04:15.140

And one of the male pilots flew under a bridge and broke a bunch of power lines. We'd go up to Winnipeg and then go west from there. And there's a whole bunch of airplanes, I don't remember how many, but made that trip.

01:04:15.140 - 01:04:29.660

But we had stopped in Chicago when the weather was bad, before we went on up there, but that kind of stuff sticks with me, but there's nothing else exciting. >> Was that a mixed group of pilots? >> Mm-hm, men and women both.

01:04:29.660 - 01:04:47.940

>> When you would go out on a trip, tell me about a trip that you might have made where you, when you landed, then picked up another airplane and went someplace else. Did you have any of those? >> No, no, I'd have new orders to go somewhere else.

01:04:49.140 - 01:05:03.460

Now, well, like this, excuse me. When I took one to Portland, Oregon, a P-63, then I caught an airplane and went down to Long Beach, and I got a P-51 and took it to the East Coast. That's the closest to what you're talking about.

01:05:03.460 - 01:05:19.700

>> But when you would land and deliver an airplane, then you would have to bring your parachute back with you? >> Yeah, that was assigned to you. >> How would you get back to your base?

01:05:19.700 - 01:05:38.580

>> We'd fly, or sometimes, like we went to Georgia one time, we had to go back by train. But when I left St. Joe, Missouri, after my instrument training, we were allowed to bump everything up to, you might help me remember on this,

01:05:38.580 - 01:05:56.100

up to some of the highest level officers in the country. We'd bump them off the plane, get their seat. Of course, they didn't like to see us coming. >> Did you ever have any unusual times when people

01:05:56.100 - 01:06:11.540

didn't know what you were doing, what your uniform was for? >> Yes, hardly anybody knew at that time what it was, what we were. >> Does anything stand out in your mind when you might have been questioned about who you were and what you were doing?

01:06:12.140 - 01:06:34.700

>> No, not that I remember. Nothing stuck with me that anybody, only thing is about other male pilots that were stuck on a training base and they objected to us and stuff like that. But no, I don't remember anything happening.

01:06:36.460 - 01:06:49.220

>> While you were at Romulus, you got temporary orders to go to pursuit school. Describe that entire process. >> Well, I don't know how they chose me. They had their way of doing it.

01:06:49.220 - 01:07:03.940

You got your orders and you went. And that was down in Brownsville where I went. And of course, we had all kinds of planes to fly. We even had P-39s that had been used over in China and over there.

01:07:03.940 - 01:07:12.780

I remember one on that. I was up there and they called me to come back in. I was flying around, making time. They called for me to come back in.

01:07:12.780 - 01:07:30.940

Come to find out, I had a bomb in my nose and all the little button on the gas control would have shot it off. It had been over there, it was overseas, see, in China. And they had not just taken that out.

01:07:32.180 - 01:07:47.740

And that was something I remember. [LAUGH] >> Tell me about some of the airplanes that you checked out in at Harlingen. >> The P-40, the P-51, the P-47, and the P-39, and the P-63.

01:07:47.740 - 01:07:56.380

How was there another one? I think that was it. >> How long did that course last? >> I don't remember.

01:07:56.380 - 01:08:14.500

>> Can you tell me about how they checked you out in a single seater pursuit plane? >> Well, they first had us fly, I think it was an 86 first, and then she kind of checked us out and see how we were doing. And then the single engines, single seaters, were just single seaters, and

01:08:14.500 - 01:08:22.100

you went by yourself when you sold them. And I left my canopy open before I got to the end of the runway. They called me, close your canopy. [LAUGH]

01:08:22.100 - 01:08:40.540

>> But no, you did it by yourself then. So they just gave you more or less ground school before they would send you up? >> Well, I think the instructor still went with us in 86s. And I think so, I'm not sure of that, I'd have to check on my records.

01:08:40.540 - 01:08:58.740

But then when they put you right in it, you're in it. And you're by yourself and you do the best you can. >> Were there some girls who did not make it through that transition? >> I don't remember how many went in there.

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I don't know that I had the information of how many went in and how many didn't make it. But in my class, I think in the picture that I have, I think there's only four or five of us, women, in the class with the men.

01:09:11.180 - 01:09:26.780

>> And do you know what qualifications you had that made them select you for that? >> I have no idea. They didn't tell us and I didn't ask, I just went. >> What was your favorite airplane?

01:09:26.780 - 01:09:45.740

>> I guess the 51 would be probably my favorite. The 63 would come in close. >> Once you finished the training at Brownsville, then what did you do? Did you go back to Romulus?

01:09:45.740 - 01:09:56.900

>> And kept ferrying. >> And while you're at Romulus, you got another set of temporary orders to go to another school in Orlando. Tell us about that.

01:09:56.900 - 01:10:07.500

>> That's the Officer's Candidate School. We went down there and we got, what do you call the chamber up there? That- >> High altitude. >> High altitude chamber.

01:10:07.500 - 01:10:24.940

We went through that and then we put on masks and went out in the field where they sprayed poisonous gases. And then they did us some survival on ocean. This is just what all the men did and that's the kind of training we got.

01:10:24.940 - 01:10:41.580

So it was a very good training and like I have said, you couldn't have bought the education I got from all that. There's no way you can't do it today. And I have profited so much and

01:10:41.580 - 01:10:55.260

I imagine things I don't even remember that I had learned there and experience I had gotten that I've used in my lifetime. >> What was the purpose of sending you to that school? Do you know?

01:10:55.260 - 01:11:10.180

>> Well, see, they still thought we were going to be militarized. And so that's part of the training that you'd get. And so- >> When you went down there for training, where did you live?

01:11:10.180 - 01:11:24.500

>> They gave us barracks quarters and it rained every day. [LAUGH] Down there it just does. But we didn't do any flying other than if we went to some other base and got to fly with somebody.

01:11:24.500 - 01:11:38.020

It was all ground school and checking the air chamber and all that. But a lot of the girls would just pass out in that. And but we made it through.

01:11:38.020 - 01:11:53.380

I don't know if any washed out, I couldn't tell you. >> Was that a mixed class? >> Yes, I think it was, I'm not sure. >> Did you also get courses in protocol and

01:11:53.380 - 01:12:10.980

military manners or that kind of thing? >> I'm sure we did to a point. I don't remember anything outstanding in it. Or maybe I just expected something like that.

01:12:10.980 - 01:12:25.380

And we just got a lot of training. I don't know, even identifying other aircraft, they on a screen, how fast you can identify them. And that was easy for me.

01:12:25.380 - 01:12:37.420

It was quick and fast. And they really put them up there fast. So there's a lot of, I think, just regular military training that they did for us, Air Force training.

01:12:37.420 - 01:12:48.180

>> Were there other girls from Romulus that took that training with you? Or were you- >> Yes, Lillian O'Connor, I think was one. She's the one that went to instrument school when I did.

01:12:48.180 - 01:13:05.900

Lillian O'Connor, that was her name. And she was in three or four, I'm not sure, one of them. And, but I was in five and I got to go. >> So when you returned to Romulus, then what did you do?

01:13:05.900 - 01:13:23.780

>> Well, they just gave me orders to fly different airplanes. >> Tell me what your social life was like when you were at Romulus. >> Well, there wasn't a whole lot of it. Of course, we'd go to the Officer's Club.

01:13:23.780 - 01:13:34.500

We were out away from Detroit. Now, I had a friend that was in the Navy come up there and he took me out downtown Detroit. We went, ate, had something to eat.

01:13:34.500 - 01:13:48.740

And he was a little younger than I was, but they asked me for my identification instead. So they're supposed to do something like that, and you're gonna get a drink or something.

01:13:48.740 - 01:14:05.580

But no, it was just regular, like I'd been doing before, ferrying when I went back. >> Were there any other incidents that happened while you were at Romulus, while you were ferrying, that you would like to tell us about?

01:14:05.580 - 01:14:35.980

>> While I was ferrying, well, that would be when I was at Romulus. I'd, like I say, I've told you about the trip through the clouds to New Jersey, and then I don't know of anything that would stick in my mind to tell you.

01:14:35.980 - 01:14:47.260

>> Could you tell me about the schedule? How many days would you fly? Would you have some time off at the end of so many days, or how did that work? >> Well, we had to account for our time.

01:14:47.260 - 01:14:57.340

30 minutes at the beginning, 30 minutes after sunrise, and 30 minutes before sunset. You had to log it. If you were away from your base, you had to log where you were,

01:14:57.340 - 01:15:13.620

what you were doing, how long it took you to go from one place to the other. And you had to keep your record and turn that in. >> And to whom did you report that record? >> Just back to my base, I guess to the head of my squadron.

01:15:13.620 - 01:15:32.860

>> While you were at Romulus, did you become real close friends to some other of the WASPs who were stationed there? >> Well, yeah, there was another girl from, she was in class four, from Dallas, Burt something or other.

01:15:32.860 - 01:15:52.060

And now she's passed away and I've forgotten her name, but she was, I knew her real well, and then I knew this girl that I drove home with after I left. And Jane Thomas was her name. And they were, Jane was in my class.

01:15:52.060 - 01:16:12.060

That's right, she was, but the other girl was in four, I think, class ahead of me. >> While you were at Romulus, did you get a new uniform and describe that? >> Yes, we got uniforms and they sent us to Chicago to, what was that store's name? And they fitted them on us and made them,

01:16:12.060 - 01:16:23.620

the way they came, they didn't fit everybody, they had to adjust them. >> Was it New? >> And they did that. Mm-hm, we went over there and got them. >> And what was your opinion of that uniform?

01:16:23.620 - 01:16:43.620

You described the uniform. >> Well, it was, what did they call it, in one of the newsreels, Santiago Blue, and then a little cap with a miniature officer's insignia on it. And then you put all your garb on, your medals and

01:16:43.620 - 01:17:03.420

your Ferry Division emblems and Air Force emblems and all on you. Got pretty well dressed up. >> Let me ask you, when you first went to Romulus, what were you called? You were not WASP at that time because the WASP name had not been associated

01:17:03.420 - 01:17:11.140

with the program yet. What were you called? Were you called a WAF? >> No, we weren't called WAFs.

01:17:11.140 - 01:17:30.740

>> Okay, because at one time then General Arnold sent out an order that everybody, every woman pilot flying military aircraft would be called WASP. Do you remember any reaction from the WAFs when that happened? >> No, I don't even remember when that happened.

01:17:30.740 - 01:17:42.420

[LAUGH] Because it evidently didn't impress me too much. >> Okay, once you had your new uniform, were you ever able to go home and wear that uniform? >> Yeah.

01:17:42.420 - 01:17:49.140

>> Do you remember how you felt? >> Well, I was just glad to have it. I was real proud of it. Proud of the uniform.

01:17:49.140 - 01:18:02.060

>> And how about your parents? >> Yeah, they thought everything was fine. They were real proud of me. And every time I'd land in Dallas going cross country with the P-51 from Long Beach,

01:18:02.060 - 01:18:11.260

I'd call them, I'm gonna spend the night with you. [LAUGH] And then I'd go on the next day. Cuz we were not supposed to fly at night. >> Okay.

01:18:11.260 - 01:18:21.900

When you were flying at Romulus, did you have a certain, did you fly a certain number of days and then have time off? How did that work? >> I don't remember.

01:18:21.900 - 01:18:31.500

I don't remember it now. >> Okay. Do you remember the first time that you heard that the WASPs were going to be deactivated and how did that make you feel?

01:18:32.820 - 01:18:42.660

>> Well, like I have said, I wasn't sure that I was gonna wanna be materialized. [LAUGH] >> How is it? Militarized? >> Militarized.

01:18:42.660 - 01:18:54.500

So I don't think it affected me too much. And it was at a time when I had gotten awfully tired. I had driven us so hard, really. Just kept me on the move all the time.

01:18:54.500 - 01:19:12.300

And see all those places I'd go and train and so on. I really don't think that it, I just had to wait and see what was gonna happen. Because I kept hoping something would happen that they'd go ahead and militarize the organization, but they didn't.

01:19:12.300 - 01:19:20.200

So I found out it was definite. So then I thought that was enough. >> How many hours? >> What?

01:19:20.200 - 01:19:34.900

>> Hours? >> How many hours would you fly a week, for example? Did they have a cutoff that you could only fly? >> No, no, they didn't have a maximum.

01:19:34.900 - 01:19:51.380

>> By the time you got out of the WASP, how many hours had you accumulated? >> Gee, I don't remember. Excuse me, I have it in my records over there, but I don't remember. >> But it would be hundreds?

01:19:51.380 - 01:19:57.460

>> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> While you were at Romulus, what contact, if any,

01:19:57.460 - 01:20:11.620

did you have with Nancy Love and with Jacqueline Cochran? >> None, whatever after I got out. >> No, while you were still flying, would they fly into your base at different times, either of those ladies?

01:20:11.620 - 01:20:26.300

>> Well, I don't remember Jacqueline Cochran ever coming in there. I think Nancy Love did, because really, she was over the ferrying division, and Jackie was over the other part. I don't remember her coming in and all, but Love, yes.

01:20:26.300 - 01:20:37.180

And like I said, I saw her down there in Wilmington. She took me to Washington. >> Right. What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP program?

01:20:37.180 - 01:20:54.780

>> She worked hard at it, and she accomplished a lot. But I don't know what could have been done different. I don't really have any inkling as to what could have done to her, because she did work hard at it.

01:20:54.780 - 01:21:13.780

And she pulled all the strings she could pull, as far as I know, and the records indicate this. So she did a good job of what she was doing. >> As far as a training program for women, do you think,

01:21:13.780 - 01:21:30.420

do you know of any other woman that you feel could have done what Cochran did, as far as getting that training program started? >> I don't think so. I know she was enemies with Hobby.

01:21:30.420 - 01:21:49.780

[LAUGH] And she was over the wax, and at one time wanted to put us with them, and of course she bowed up real strong. But no, she had good connections, and I think she pulled all the strings she could pull, and she did her best, as far as I know.

01:21:49.780 - 01:21:59.900

Everything I've read indicates that. >> At the time that you- >> I'm gonna have to change tapes. >> Oops, okay. >> [LAUGH] >> Gonna change what?

01:21:59.900 - 01:22:02.700

>> Gonna change tapes and get you something to drink.