00:00:01.740 - 00:00:10.200

- Just to turn on and do a cassette, you know, do her talking. - Yeah. - And Nancy said, "I wouldn't film you,

00:00:10.420 - 00:00:19.240

but just to do the audio." And she said, "Yeah, yeah, that'd be fine." And it was very difficult for her because she was on oxygen.

00:00:19.980 - 00:00:30.860

- Oh. - But I guess we talked to her for maybe 15 minutes or longer. Finally, she had a phone call from her daughter in Alaska. And then when she got off, she said--

00:00:31.140 - 00:00:43.040

I'm going to roll it. I'm Deanie Parrish, and we're in the home of Jeanette Capas in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Jeanette was a WASP class 44-4.

00:00:43.580 - 00:00:57.240

Today is July 23, 2001. Jeanette, if you'll just start off by telling us your name and when and where you were born. My name is Jeanette C. Capas, and I

00:00:57.080 - 00:01:22.180

I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin on the 14th of January, 1920. Jeanette, tell me about your mom and dad. My mother and dad were married in 1919. She was born in Chicago, Illinois, and she came up to Milwaukee.

00:01:23.900 - 00:01:42.240

Her father was a railroad man. My father came over from Europe, Lithuania. He came over in about 1915 or 1916. He settled in Pennsylvania first and was working in the mines.

00:01:42.440 - 00:02:15.680

He said he did not want to go blind like the mules, so he moved himself from Pennsylvania to Milwaukee. He took a job as an assistant mechanic down at a lace factory in Milwaukee. He moved himself up eventually into being a stationary engineer at the Parklawn Housing

00:02:16.120 - 00:02:40.080

Project in Milwaukee. He was in World War I. He went in in 1918 and was discharged in 1919. And when he came back, he married my mother. Okay. Could you tell us about your brother?

00:02:41.760 - 00:03:05.920

Yeah, my brother was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin also, and he was in World War II. He was a sergeant and a crew chief on the B-17s in England with the 384th Bomber Group. Is he older or younger? He's younger, by about sixteen, seventeen months.

00:03:07.240 - 00:03:18.680

What are your earliest remembrances of your childhood? Do you remember where you lived? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I lived in Milwaukee on 22nd and McKinley.

00:03:21.560 - 00:03:53.380

My father, he was a firm believer in health. When we were still—my brother and I were still young—he bought a lot out at Freeze Lake, which is about 30 miles from Milwaukee. He insisted that we spend our summers at our summer cottage, which he built, and which my brother and I helped clear and haul gravel

00:03:53.540 - 00:04:09.040

for. Was it on a lake? It was not quite. It was between two lakes, Little Freeze and Big Freeze. My mother did didn't want us to be too close to the lake because she didn't swim and she was afraid

00:04:09.180 - 00:04:26.260

that something would happen to us. But of course, being kids, you learn to swim just like that. Right. When you would go up there in the summertime, would your mom go with you? Oh, we would go up there on about the 30th of May whenever school let out, and we'd stay

00:04:26.320 - 00:04:41.820

all summer until Labor Day. And Dad would come out every weekend. and spend the weekend with us. >> Do you remember some of the things you did when you were at that lake or at that summer place?

00:04:41.880 - 00:04:54.820

>> Oh, yeah. We did a lot of swimming all day long, and then we'd go on hikes with our mothers, we'd hike around the area. And --

00:04:54.900 - 00:05:07.120

>> Do you remember other children being there near? Did you play with other children? >> Oh, yeah. Friends that I still have from way back in 1928 and '30.

00:05:09.980 - 00:05:28.220

Tell me about when you first started school. How far was school from your house? I was fortunate. It was only a block away. I went to McKinley Avenue Elementary School. Was this a large school? Did you have a large class?

00:05:28.600 - 00:05:42.720

Yeah, it was a large school. So you just walked to school? I just walked to school, yes. During your early years, do you recall any of your teachers in elementary?

00:05:43.210 - 00:06:03.760

I only recall my eighth grade teacher, Mrs. Robinson. And I think I recall her because she wanted me to go to Girls Technical College, Technical High School when I graduated, and I wanted to go to West Division High School, which was coeducational.

00:06:05.700 - 00:06:38.300

Okay. Jeanette, tell me, what was a Christmas like at your home when you were growing up? Usually my father would walk my brother and I down to Wisconsin Avenue, which was a distance or six miles. And we walked down there and watched the tree lighting service. And by the time we came back, my mother would have decorated the tree. Would that be on Christmas Eve?

00:06:38.480 - 00:06:55.360

That would be on Christmas Eve, yeah. Okay. Do you know, before you left home, did you know there was a tree there? The tree was put up by my father, yes. Did you go, did he buy it or did you go out and chop it down? No, he bought it.

00:06:55.880 - 00:07:29.320

Okay. And do you recall any of the decorations on that tree? Yeah, a lot of them were old-fashioned decorations. And I say old-fashioned like a little Santa Claus that was only about this big and was painted. What was it made of? It was, it wasn't metal, but it was,

00:07:32.320 - 00:07:54.760

I don't know, maybe glass. Okay, good. Would you have lights on the tree? Yes, we had lights. Okay, and then when you get home, the tree would be up and decorated, And then what would happen? Would you have Christmas that night or the next morning? >> We would have it the next morning.

00:07:55.120 - 00:08:24.980

>> Okay. Do you remember anything special that you got at a Christmas? >> I got a doll. You see, I'm losing myóthis is known as senior moments. >> Okay. When you forget. It wasnít a crib for a doll, it was aó

00:08:24.980 - 00:08:31.100

In a buggy? A buggy, a doll buggy. I still have it. Oh, good for you. Down in the basement.

00:08:33.040 - 00:08:46.600

Did you hang up your stockings? No. No. Okay. And then what would Christmas dinner be like? Before I ask you that, let me ask you about your grandparents.

00:08:48.130 - 00:09:08.820

Who were your grandparents? The only grandparent that I know is my mother's mother, Catherine, what's her middle name, her maiden name. Anyway, she married Shubel.

00:09:11.260 - 00:09:27.560

Edward Schubel. And he had drowned when my mother was only three years old. So my grandmother was the only grandparent I knew. How far did she live from you? A block away.

00:09:27.840 - 00:09:47.620

Okay. Now we get back to Christmas dinner. Did she come for Christmas dinner? Yes, and Papa always wanted roast goose, so we always had goose for Christmas dinner. Was your mom a good cook? Yeah, so was my grandmother.

00:09:47.720 - 00:10:17.680

My grandmother had been the cook for the Blatts family at one time, and Blatts, of course, were well-known, the Blatts Brewery. So she knew how to cook very well and she taught my mother. In growing up, I've noticed on your questionnaire about your religion, and I wondered what your

00:10:17.760 - 00:10:44.720

religious training was as a young child. Well, I went to a congregational church and then a neighbor of mine who was Catholic, she said, "Why don't you try the Catholic church?" And so I went over to a Catholic church and I liked it.

00:10:44.820 - 00:11:10.820

They seemed to serve my feelings about religion. And it turned out my father was Catholic and my mother was Lutheran. And so I turned Catholic when I was about 15 or 16 years old. As a young child during the Christmas season, would you attend any religious programs?

00:11:10.820 - 00:11:32.640

programs. When you were in elementary school, did you have any idea of what you wanted to be when you grew up? I wanted to be a nurse when I grew up. Who were your role models?

00:11:36.400 - 00:11:47.820

I don't remember. Why did you want to be a nurse? Had you had some contact with a nurse? No, not that I recall.

00:11:50.240 - 00:12:09.300

I was always very healthy. When you finished elementary school and then went on into junior high school, did you stay in the same building or was it different schools? It was a high school that was about three blocks away, West Division High School.

00:12:11.080 - 00:12:19.020

In junior high school? No junior high school. Okay, it went directly from what grade? From eighth grade to high school.

00:12:19.900 - 00:12:45.840

When you were in high school, did you have other interests other than academics? Are you into sports or into music or into drama, anything outside of academics per se? I was into sports, volleyball, swimming. I guess that was it.

00:12:47.060 - 00:13:06.520

And I was into music, yes. Did you take music lessons? I took music lessons on the violin, and then after I graduated I went to the Wisconsin Conservatory of Music and I took voice.

00:13:10.800 - 00:13:26.260

When you were in high school and played volleyball, were you on a team? Yeah. Do you recall going to different schools to play, be competitive with other schools? Yes.

00:13:26.530 - 00:13:36.580

What were your uniforms like? We had no uniforms. You just wore what, shorts or slacks? Shorts, yeah, or slacks.

00:13:37.460 - 00:13:50.340

Do you remember how good your volleyball team was? No. What was your favorite subject in high school? Latin.

00:13:52.460 - 00:14:04.740

Oh. I had three and a half years of Latin. In high school, other than that one teacher, do you recall any other teachers? Oh, yeah.

00:14:04.860 - 00:14:23.140

Mr. Moe. He was my English teacher. He told me if I go on to college, I should take writing, but I did not go to college. What were your social activities like when you were in high school?

00:14:24.060 - 00:14:52.840

I joined the Catholic Youth Organization at church, and there too I got involved with sports, volleyball, tournaments between parishes and swimming, tournaments between parishes. And there I know I won a couple prizes in my swimming. Do you recall, were they for distance or speed or?

00:14:55.470 - 00:15:10.940

I think they were for both. Both, okay. Do you remember what particular stroke you enjoyed? Backstroke? Butterfly? I liked the backstroke, yeah.

00:15:11.480 - 00:15:34.220

Okay. Do you recall your high school prom? I didn't go to any high school prom. Okay. In high school, with some of your outside activities, did you go to movies and-- Would you go in a group to different things or did you have dates?

00:15:35.420 - 00:15:46.620

Yeah, I had dates. We went to movies. I don't recall what. Oh, I used to love those college type pictures with music.

00:15:48.780 - 00:16:12.480

What kind of music did you love in high school? Classical. your graduation, what was it like? On the first of February 1938, and it was held down at the girls' technical high school

00:16:12.980 - 00:16:30.740

because we didn't have a big enough auditorium at our high school. It was in Cap and Gown. There were about 126 of us that graduated. What kind of student were you in high school? I was pretty good.

00:16:31.420 - 00:17:00.060

I think I came out 24th in that 126 people. I had taken the science course because, as I say, I was interested in being a nurse. But after I graduated, my father felt that any money that he had should go to my brother to get a college education.

00:17:00.760 - 00:17:14.980

And of course, that was the thinking at those times. Was he just one grade behind you or two grades? Two grades. As it turns out, he did want to go to college anyway.

00:17:17.880 - 00:17:39.020

So what did you do once you graduated? Once I graduated, I went to Milwaukee Vocational School for two years, from 1938 to 1940, and I took clerical courses. My father was a firm believer that you should work for the government.

00:17:43.280 - 00:18:23.380

The first job I got was at a tannery, and I worked in a third floor office. I kept time cards, and I also took shorthand from the third floor supervisor. I was only there from 1940 to '41. And then meanwhile I had taken a civil service exam and they offered me a job down at Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois, in the Tri-Cities there, Davenport, Moline,

00:18:23.640 - 00:18:57.580

and Rock Island. And my father said, "Yeah, you better take that job." And I always stayed pretty close to home. And so he said, "I'll take you down there." So he took me down to the Tri-Cities and he said, "We'll find a place for you to live." So we went into Moline and we looked around there and then we went into Davenport. And of course, this was through

00:18:57.520 - 00:19:22.340

the ads in the paper. There was a nurse that was running a hiring agency, and she had a bedroom for rent. Dad said I should stay there. That's where I stayed during the period of time that I was down at Rock Island Arsenal. I rented a bedroom, and I had kitchen privileges for breakfast.

00:19:23.280 - 00:19:33.920

Kelly: Was this arsenal run by the government? Or was this— Steele: Yeah, U.S. government. Kelly: Why do you think your dad wanted you to work for the government?

00:19:35.340 - 00:19:47.360

Steele: He felt that you got a better job with the government. Kelly: Might it also have been a patriotic— Steele: It could very well have been. Kelly: —on his part.

00:19:47.360 - 00:20:04.460

Steele: Yeah. Then, of course, while I was down in Rock Island, he said to me, "If you don't know what to do with your time, why don't you learn to fly?" I said, "Oh, Pops, no, no, I want you to learn to fly."

00:20:04.660 - 00:20:28.320

He had seen an aircraft during World War I when he was stationed in France, and he was fascinated by it. a good daughter, I listened to Pox. And I took the CPT course at St. Ambrose College in Davenport, Iowa.

00:20:29.180 - 00:20:54.120

What does CPT stand for? Civilian Pilot Training Course at St. Ambrose. And that was a night class. And so then with that, I'd go out weekends to Cram Field in Davenport, and that's how I learned how to fly. I was a clerk steno there at Rock Island Arsenal.

00:20:55.910 - 00:21:14.060

Were there other girls also learning how to fly? Yes, there were. And eventually, we got to know each other, and we joined the Civil Air Patrol. And what did you do as a member of the Civil Air Patrol?

00:21:14.840 - 00:21:36.480

Oh, I was a sergeant. And we would go out and do search and rescue missions. Whenever an aircraft went down or someone was lost, we'd go out and do those. Do you recall your first instructor, and tell me what your first solo flight was like?

00:21:37.660 - 00:21:54.880

Well, I just happened to be reading my CPT book within the last couple of days, and he says, he's written there, "Too high. Landing is too high." And so apparently I had to go around.

00:21:57.420 - 00:22:10.320

I really don't recall. What kind of airplane were you flying? It was an Aronca, 65 horsepower. And then did you keep the same instructor or did you have different instructors?

00:22:10.320 - 00:22:35.860

No, I kept the same instructor. What were your ground school courses like? Well, they were very similar to the courses that we eventually got when we went through our WASP training, weather, civil air regulations, aircraft maintenance.

00:22:38.950 - 00:23:04.660

Kelly: How long did that course last, the ground school portion? Oh, I think it was a period of time, like maybe six or eight months, because you were only spending like two hours a night, once a week. Right, and then you would work in the daytime, and then you would do your ground school,

00:23:04.720 - 00:23:07.860

and then you would fly on the weekend? Yes. Okay. Yes.

00:23:09.700 - 00:23:21.560

unusual ever happen to you as you were learning to fly? Any incidents that you can think of, interesting things that you might have witnessed or been a part of? Kelly: No.

00:23:22.140 - 00:23:37.320

Kelly: Okay. Once you soloed, did your dad—were you ever able to take your dad up? Kelly: No. What did your mother think about your learning to fly?

00:23:38.220 - 00:23:56.980

My mother did not like it at all. Kelly: Did she ever come down or was she ever able to watch you as you flew? Dyson: Yes, because after I got out of the WASPs and I returned home, I wanted to take her up in the light aircraft.

00:23:58.180 - 00:24:23.040

And as it turns out, I belonged to a club, and I took her out this one day to the airport, and as it turns out, the aircraft was having some maintenance problems. And my mother said, "Oh, thank God, I didn't want to fly." And I said, "Mother, I'll never ask you again."

00:24:23.040 - 00:24:33.700

And I didn't. Right. Okay. continue to fly in the Tri-Cities area. Tell me where you were and how you heard about

00:24:34.080 - 00:25:03.520

Pearl Harbor and how that affected you. I was on a date at a movie, and we came out of the movie and the newspaper boy was, you Both my date and I felt terrible, devastated by this. What's going to happen now?

00:25:05.260 - 00:25:33.460

How do you think that incident, plus our entering World War II, how did that change America? How did that change how people thought, how people worked? I think people came together, they became unified, and became very patriotic. Because you heard of so many young people, my brother was one of them, that immediately

00:25:33.580 - 00:25:51.020

wanted to enlist, get in, protect our country. When you first heard about a program for women to learn to fly military aircraft, where were you? And what was your thoughts about that?

00:25:51.550 - 00:26:03.280

>> I was there in Davenport. And the group of girls that I palled around with, we all immediately thought, hey, we can get into this. Let's try.

00:26:04.640 - 00:26:20.880

I was the only one that got in. >> What did, at that time, when you first heard about it, what did you think that program was for? Did you know the purpose of it?

00:26:21.710 - 00:26:32.280

Well, I knew we were supposed to replace male pilots. That I understood. Had your brother already entered service at that time? Yeah.

00:26:32.280 - 00:26:48.880

Okay. Then tell me what happened after you first heard about the program. Well, then I really thought, "Okay, I'm going to start working on this." I submitted a letter in March of 1943.

00:26:49.940 - 00:27:17.440

First of all, I had to get my thirty-eight hours in, get myself a private license. I was still a student licensee. I got my private license, and then in March of 1943, I submitted a letter to Jackie Cochran. I gave her my background and I requested information on it and a consideration to get into the

00:27:17.800 - 00:27:29.140

program. Kelly: Then what happened? Martinez: Then I was notified that I should report to Chicago for a physical by a doctor there.

00:27:29.960 - 00:27:47.240

I went up to Chicago. Then I was interviewed by Dede. I do not recall. Was it there that I was interviewed? I do not remember. What kind of doctor was this? Was it a military doctor?

00:27:47.240 - 00:28:04.780

It was a military doctor. Do you recall what that physical was like? I do not think there was too much to it. Not that I recall. And then what happened after you were interviewed? What was the next step?

00:28:05.700 - 00:28:27.980

Well, because I was working for the arsenal, I had to get a release. I was told that I would be accepted. Then I had to get a release from the arsenal in order to get into the WASPs. And eventually I got that release, and then I was told that I should report for the 1 November '43 class.

00:28:29.640 - 00:28:50.280

Once you got your release, did you go back home? I did not go home until the end of September, and I stayed home for October. What did your mom and dad think about your going to Texas? My father was delighted.

00:28:53.220 - 00:29:13.880

My mother, she did not go along with it very easily. She said, "You know," she said, "then you're going to be assigned to a military base," and she said, "You're going to be considered a camp follower." And I said, "Mother, never that."

00:29:14.040 - 00:29:21.200

She said, "Well, you never know." Now you know what a camp follower was. Tell us. I don't know.

00:29:21.260 - 00:29:42.040

Yeah, explain that to children. One who serviced men. When you left Davenport, did you leave a lot of friends behind? What did they think about what you were about to do?

00:29:43.010 - 00:30:06.160

I think they were envious. I think that they would have liked you to have gotten in also. When you went to your superiors to get the release, what was their reaction? I do not think they were very receptive to this.

00:30:07.420 - 00:30:21.740

They kept telling me that, "Well, you probably will not make it and you will be back." I said, "No, I am going to make it. I am going to make it." Do you think they would have been more receptive had you been a male?

00:30:23.140 - 00:30:41.760

I'm sure they would have. You go home and then how did you get from Milwaukee to Sweetwater, Texas? I took the train. Were there others going that you knew or were you all by yourself?

00:30:41.780 - 00:31:03.360

No, I was by myself. And then take me through when you arrived in Sweetwater on the train. What happened? Well, I think we were told at that time that we would stay at the Sweetwater Blue Bonnet

00:31:03.460 - 00:31:14.520

Hotel. That was it, yeah. And then they brought this big cattle van out to pick us up. that cattle van?

00:31:17.200 - 00:31:39.480

Well, it was big and it had planks along the side. And I just thought it was more like a cattle van than anything else. Do you recall when you arrived out at Avenger Field, your feelings? Did you see the airplanes all parked?

00:31:40.280 - 00:31:50.520

Or do you recall what you saw when you arrived? No, I don't recall seeing the airplanes. I recall they took us to the barracks right away. Okay.

00:31:51.060 - 00:32:01.420

Do you remember seeing trees like you had in Milwaukee? Oh, no. No trees like in Milwaukee. Okay.

00:32:02.200 - 00:32:22.080

When you were all together and got the rules and regulations from the people who were in charge, do you recall what some of the things were that they told you about? First place, did you have to take an oath at that time? Steele: Yeah.

00:32:23.120 - 00:32:57.160

And do you recall what they told you about the program, just in general? How long would it last? It was supposed to last seven months, I think. And they told us we would be -- at that time, They were switching from 180 hours to 210 hours, and they were changing some of the

00:32:57.240 - 00:33:05.140

aircraft, too. Kelly: Okay. Then how were you divided up? Mildred: By alphabetical.

00:33:05.700 - 00:33:19.860

Kelly: Okay. Could you describe the barracks where you lived? Mildred: Yeah. There were six women on one side and six women on the other side with a latrine in the center.

00:33:21.440 - 00:33:34.220

And it was pretty bare. You know, you slept on cots. You had three cots on one side of that room and three cots on the other side of the room. Were these brick buildings?

00:33:35.100 - 00:33:59.840

What were these buildings? No, these were wooden barracks. Can you tell me about your baymates, the girls who lived in the room with you? Let's see, there was Dorothy Klein and—oh, no I can't.

00:34:01.540 - 00:34:27.060

I remember some names. They may have been on the other side, Adella Gremling and I think Frances Gilbert and Betty Hayes. Were they all from the same walk of life that you were from, or how different were they?

00:34:29.710 - 00:34:41.040

I don't remember. - Okay, and your bae, with your bae mates. - Oh yeah, and I couldn't remember all of them. - Well, that's okay.

00:34:42.320 - 00:34:47.680

Just that they're all different. - They're all different, yeah. - Right, okay. Are you ready?

00:34:48.140 - 00:35:01.260

Okay, where did you have your meals? - Oh, well, we had a cafeteria there, or a, yeah. Mess Hall. Mess Hall, that's right.

00:35:02.060 - 00:35:17.940

Okay. Describe what a typical day would be like when you were in training. Oh, well, you got up pretty early and you fell out and you marched over to the Mess Hall.

00:35:18.640 - 00:35:42.900

You had your breakfast and then I don't recall that we marched back. I think what we did was saunder back. And then, depending upon what your schedule was, you either flew the first part of the day, and then you went to school in the afternoon, or vice versa.

00:35:43.610 - 00:36:05.300

You went to school in the morning and then flew in the afternoon. When you went to school, what kind of school did you go to? Well, it covered a number of subjects, like weather, aircraft maintenance, military courtesy and customs.

00:36:09.440 - 00:36:15.580

Physics, engines? Yeah, physics, engines, you're right. Morse code, maybe? Yeah.

00:36:16.880 - 00:36:37.720

Oh, it was good. What was your favorite thing to study? In addition to the ground school, were you also required to take physical education? Oh, yeah, that was another thing.

00:36:38.520 - 00:36:53.980

Tell us about that. I thought it was pretty hard. They had us doing these—what did they call it?—sit-ups? Or push-ups?

00:36:54.000 - 00:37:00.400

Push-ups, push-ups, yeah. Kelly: Chin-ups? Martinez: Chin-ups, that's right. Kelly: Okay.

00:37:01.350 - 00:37:20.700

What was the first airplane that you flew at Avenger? Martinez: It was the PT-19, the Fairchild. Do you recall your solo flight? Steele No.

00:37:22.050 - 00:37:34.120

Do you recall your instructor in primary? Steele No. How did that work? Were you the one student to an instructor or were there several students?

00:37:35.720 - 00:37:59.380

Steele I think it was one student to an instructor until we went out into the field, and then there would be several of us that they would be working with. When I was flying the Stearman, I ground looped it, and I had to go up for another flight.

00:38:00.610 - 00:38:19.360

Can you explain what ground loop is? Then one wing goes down and the aircraft swivels around almost to 360 degrees. Did you have to go before the board? I had to go before the board.

00:38:20.330 - 00:38:37.660

And then Mr. Breese took me up to see if they felt I would still be qualified to remain in the program. And he said yes. I think I was fortunate.

00:38:38.770 - 00:38:57.020

Do you recall that board meeting? Did you have to go by yourself and answer questions to board members? I do not recall that. At Avenger Field, what kind of airplanes were at the field?

00:38:57.140 - 00:39:18.040

Were you just going to take primary training there, or how did that work? We took all three phases, the primary training, which was the Fairchild and the Stearman, the basic training, which was the Advolgee Vibrator, and the advanced, which was the AT-6, the Texan.

00:39:20.140 - 00:39:40.980

During the time you were in primary, did any of your baymates wash out? Yes, some of them did, yes. Do you recall how that made you feel? Scared, you know, that it could happen to us.

00:39:41.540 - 00:40:09.600

But it was not always the flying that was the problem. I think sometimes it was an attitude that they had, or that they got too many gigs. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make when you went into training? I think the authority that was over us.

00:40:12.680 - 00:40:38.780

When you would have time off, maybe on a weekend, did you ever get any time off and what did you do with it? We got time off and there was a place in Sweetwater itself where we could go to socialize. Okay, you want to change film?

00:40:39.400 - 00:40:48.520

Okay, or she can tell us where that is. Okay. Where what is? Where the place was. What was it? Does it have a name? The place to socialize?

00:40:48.520 - 00:40:55.040

If it had a name, I don't recall what it was. Okay. All right. Okay. I'm just going to switch tape.

00:40:55.780 - 00:41:01.520

Oh, okay. You okay? I'm okay. I'm trying to remember.

00:41:01.680 - 00:41:10.360

I'm trying, you know. Yeah. Because she wanted to do it and said it's too bad we couldn't have done this years ago so that her memory would have been fine.

00:41:10.900 - 00:41:19.820

Okay. Okay. When you were in primary training, how many hours of flying time then did you have to get before you could move on to the next phase?

00:41:20.170 - 00:41:37.340

I believe 70. Okay. When between primary and the next phase, did they decide to change the order of airplanes you were flying? I don't remember that.

00:41:37.500 - 00:41:54.200

Instead of ordinarily they would go into a basic training with your class, they decided to go into the AT-6 directly from the PT. Do you recall being able to do that? Krikorian: No. Kelly: Okay.

00:41:55.120 - 00:42:11.820

Describe an auxiliary field. What was that like? Krikorian: Well, an auxiliary field was actually just a runway way out in the boonies. Kelly: How would you get over there?

00:42:12.400 - 00:42:32.460

Krikorian: Someone—they'd fly us over. Your instructor would fly you over. Sometimes it was awfully cold there and the girls would—someone would start a little fire to get our hands and feet warm.

00:42:34.320 - 00:42:51.240

Kelly: You were at Avenger during the wintertime. Ruthie: Yeah, November, yeah. Kelly: Describe what it was like on a snowy day. Well, it was cold.

00:42:52.670 - 00:43:19.900

The wind always blew across the runway. We did not have that many sunny days, mostly cloudy. When I think back, when we were flying at Stearman, they had us in those heavy sheepskin line jackets and heavy sheepskin line pants and those big boots that came up.

00:43:20.460 - 00:43:43.260

And then if you attempted to put a parachute over that, you looked like a little bear and that parachute would be flopping against your rear end while you were walking. When you were not wearing the heavy flying suit, during other times when it was warmer, What did you fly in?

00:43:43.460 - 00:43:56.420

What was your uniform? Oh, it was that, yeah, they were always too big for us. Zoot suits? Zoot suits, yes.

00:43:57.160 - 00:44:24.240

And we were folding them up on the arms and folding them up on the ankles. But you know, when you think back, they were pretty comfortable and cool. Kelly: And for parades or anything, to go to ground school, then what did you wear? Steele: We wore tan slacks and a white blouse, and then a tan overseas cap.

00:44:25.690 - 00:44:40.600

Kelly: During your primary training, did anything other than your ground loop? Were there any other incidents that you want to talk about that you recall? Anything unusual happen? Not that I recall.

00:44:41.510 - 00:44:57.260

It was in our advance that we lost Mary Halston. Let me go to your instrument training in the Volte. What was instrument training like in flying the airplane? What would happen?

00:45:00.120 - 00:45:18.620

Well, I do not know exactly what you mean. It was like blind flying. As far as a hood, can you describe how that worked? Well, I don't even recall if it was a black hood that came over us.

00:45:19.690 - 00:45:33.660

I don't even recall that, but I remember it was considered to be blind flying and of course we had gone through LINC training to teach us how to fly blind. What is LINC? What is a LINC?

00:45:33.980 - 00:45:59.840

Well, it is an artificial machine that is programmed for certain situations that you might encounter. During your instrument training, was there anything unusual that happened that you recall that you want to tell us about?

00:46:02.490 - 00:46:10.800

No. Was that easy for you? Yeah, I didn't have any problem with it. I didn't have claustrophobia, you know.

00:46:11.500 - 00:46:21.380

Do you recall the first time you went up in an AT-6? No. Okay. What was your favorite airplane to fly?

00:46:21.400 - 00:46:32.920

The AT-6. It was fast. And what else was different about it? Well, of course, you could bring the landing gear up.

00:46:34.500 - 00:46:52.680

It was a low-wing aircraft. That's about all I can think of. Recall for us one of your cross-countries trips that you took. Describe that.

00:46:53.260 - 00:47:06.180

Well, it was only supposed to be about two or three days and we encountered a lot of rain and it took me five days before I got back to Sweetwater. Were you by yourself? Yeah.

00:47:07.240 - 00:47:19.980

Well, when we first started out, of course, we were all around and about, but eventually, yeah, I was by myself. Did you have to have an emergency landing somewhere? No.

00:47:20.660 - 00:47:32.400

Do you recall the route that you took? No, I'd have to check my book. Atlanta, were you on that route? I don't recall Atlanta.

00:47:34.840 - 00:47:49.280

Did the girls all end up at one place, finally? Yes. Was there anything else outstanding about your advanced training that you recall? How about night flying?

00:47:49.400 - 00:47:56.560

Tell us about night flying. Roslyn: Oh, I did not like night flying. Kelly: Okay. Why did you not like night flying?

00:47:56.940 - 00:48:15.460

Roslyn: Well, I think simply because you could not see very well. Kelly: Okay. When you were at Avenger, do you recall a lot of airplanes landing with male pilots? Roslyn: Yeah.

00:48:15.600 - 00:48:36.480

They always came in with an emergency. And I think, if I recall, a couple of times the gals were out flying and the fellows would fly right up to them and wiggle their wings. While you were in training, some girls had already graduated.

00:48:37.140 - 00:48:56.820

Were you aware of some of their assignments and what were they doing? Not that I recall. I think some went to the Ferry Command, yes. What is the most afraid?

00:48:57.740 - 00:49:23.860

Was there ever a time, beside the time you ground looped, when you were really afraid? After I graduated and went to Cortlandt Army Air Base, they put me in a UC-64. I do not know if you know what that is, but that is like a pregnant goose. It has a big belly on it.

00:49:26.920 - 00:49:46.000

They checked me out, but I was not that confident flying that aircraft. As it turns out, I had to take a couple of fellows to a meeting. And I was very— You were not very comfortable?

00:49:46.260 - 00:50:09.460

No, not comfortable at all. In going at Sweetwater, what would you do as a member of one of the underclasses when a class would graduate? Do you recall marching?

00:50:10.900 - 00:50:35.260

Oh, we had to march in the parade, yes. Our group had to march in the parade, along with the other gals. Jeanette, I know you were there during the Christmas season and also during Easter season. Do you recall anything that happened at the base as far as programs or anything that you

00:50:35.340 - 00:50:46.180

did? No. Okay. At some point, Ms. Cochran was able to have new uniforms made.

00:50:47.220 - 00:51:05.800

Can you describe that uniform? Yes. It was called a Santiago Blue, and it was a skirt and a blouse. When I say blouse, I mean like not a blazer, but a jacket.

00:51:08.340 - 00:51:23.900

We were all so proud of it. And then we had a tam. So, um... Do you recall how you felt when you were able to put that uniform on for the first time

00:51:23.900 - 00:51:35.240

at graduation? Proud. Very good. In preparing for graduation, do you recall what assignment you requested?

00:51:36.800 - 00:51:48.380

No. Okay. Did you have friends or parents to come for graduation? My mother came down and she pinned my wings on.

00:51:50.780 - 00:51:59.180

And how did she feel at that point? She was proud. But your dad was not able to come? He was not able to come.

00:52:01.100 - 00:52:22.160

When you graduated, what was your assignment? Initially, they assigned me to Maxwell Air Force Base, and then they amended that and assign me to Cortland Army Air Base. When you graduated, then what did you do? Did you get to go home for a few days?

00:52:22.600 - 00:52:40.960

Not that I recall. Okay. So that your dad didn't see you in that uniform when you first graduated? No, no. Okay. When you were sent to Maxwell, how did you get from Sweetwater to Maxwell?

00:52:43.760 - 00:53:06.880

By train. When you arrived at Maxwell, to whom did you report? I don't think I even got to Maxwell. My orders were amended, and I got the amendment before I got to Maxwell.

00:53:08.240 - 00:53:15.160

So then you went on to Cortland? I went on to Cortland Army Air Base, yeah. And that's in what state? Alabama.

00:53:15.640 - 00:53:23.340

Okay. Were you the only one in your class to be assigned to Cortland? Yes. Okay.

00:53:24.200 - 00:53:34.920

When you got to Cortland, were there other WASPs already there? Ruth Petrie was there. No, I don't—she was in a 43 class. I don't recall which one.

00:53:35.260 - 00:53:44.380

Okay. When you arrived at Cortland, to whom did you report? the Director of Operations. And what did he tell you your assignment would be?

00:53:45.840 - 00:54:08.440

That I would be testing aircraft, and I would be fairing some, too. We had PT-17s, PT-19s, and those two on the base, and he said that we would be fairing those to Boneyards. Where did you live at Cortland?

00:54:10.340 - 00:54:24.340

I lived in the WAF officers' barracks with the officers, and we had access to the officers' club. Okay. What was your social life like at Cortland?

00:54:26.540 - 00:54:38.760

Very active. When we were there. Okay. for me some of the testing, a testing mission that you might fly?

00:54:39.740 - 00:55:17.320

Well, if they put a new engine on the aircraft or a wing or an aileron, we would have to take it up and test it. And usually we'd have to test it fast time for about ten minutes and then slow time for about 50 minutes. And then we take the aircraft back down again. I had a mechanic who said to me, "I've never been up in an aircraft. Could I go up with

00:55:17.320 - 00:55:49.300

you?" And I said, "Sure." So we went up, and we had gone up quite high, and I fast-timed it, and when I wanted to bring the throttle back, the throttle would not come back. And I tried, and I pulled on it. So through the intercom, I said to this mechanic, I said, I'm going to say, "One, two, three," and then I'm going to say, "Go," and then you help

00:55:49.380 - 00:56:11.620

me pull this throttle back. Well, the throttle would not come back. So I called the base ops, and they said, "Okay, we'll clear the area. We'll bring out the hash wagon, and you fly around, and we'll tell you when you should

00:56:11.620 - 00:56:40.840

come in and when you should cut your engine." And I said, "Okay." So they cleared the area, brought out the hatch wagon, and I flew way out and I started bringing it in. And then they told me when I should cut my engine, which was at the end of the runway. Not the end of the runway, the end of the airport. And I did. And I came in fast, of course,

00:56:41.940 - 00:57:06.240

But I landed it okay, and then I stayed where I was. The engine was dead then. And so I stayed where I was, and the mechanic said to me, "I am never going to fly again." So the next day I checked to find out what the problem was, why that throttle had stayed

00:57:06.280 - 00:57:23.620

in that wide-open position. And it turns out that there was a guard that should have been placed on the battery, and apparently it had not been secured. So it had fallen in between where the throttle was there.

00:57:23.900 - 00:57:42.520

I think there were two metal things there that guided that, and it fell in there. And that's why we could not bring the throttle back. I do not know if that mechanic was the mechanic for that particular aircraft or not. Who knows?

00:57:42.640 - 00:57:47.180

Yeah. And what kind of plane was that? That was a BT-13. Okay.

00:57:48.720 - 00:58:19.140

And while you were at Cortland, you also flew other kinds of airplanes. Tell us about some of those jobs. Yeah, I flew UC-78 and the AT-11, and those were mostly taking personnel to meetings or conferences. The BT-13 I used to take one of the military officers to a doctor's appointment,

00:58:21.640 - 00:58:41.460

I forget, in Nashville, I think, Nashville, Tennessee. So those are the aircraft I flew, and I told you about the UC-78, or 64. Right. In the UC-78 and AT-11, would there always be a pilot and a co-pilot?

00:58:42.300 - 00:58:52.820

Not always. Okay. Okay. Do you remember any other incidents that happened at Cortland that you want to talk about?

00:58:56.620 - 00:59:17.820

This was when we were converting over to a B-24 field. One of the navigators came up to me and he said, "Can I go up with you in a BT-13?" He says, "I know how to fly." He said, "I'd like to fly it when we get up."

00:59:17.820 - 00:59:33.260

I said, "Okay." So we went up and I tested the aircraft. We went up quite high, 9,000 feet in fact. He said, "Let me fly it now."

00:59:33.260 - 00:59:59.460

I said, "Okay." So he flew it and he went into a turn and he made it too tight and we went into a spin. And then he said to me, "It's all yours." So I corrected for the spin, but I overcorrected and went to a spin in the opposite direction.

01:00:01.100 - 01:00:20.480

And then, of course, I brought it out. I thought at the time, I should not have let him do that. But he did not realize that he could get into a very—by turning, making a turn, that he could get into a spin very easily.

01:00:23.140 - 01:00:42.240

But we got out of it already. Had you had an occasion to do spins in other aircraft? Well, when we were going through training, of course, we did, what, three to five spins. And that was the extent of spins that I was used to.

01:00:44.680 - 01:01:02.980

While you were at Cortland, were you ever able to go home to visit? Yes. It seems that one of our operations officers was from someplace in Wisconsin, just north of Madison.

01:01:04.180 - 01:01:25.700

And so periodically he would ask for an aircraft to go home, and he'd say to me, "You want to come along?" You know, like over the weekend, Saturday and Sunday, and I'd say, "Yeah." So then he would land the aircraft over at Truick's Field in Madison, and then I would

01:01:25.760 - 01:01:42.440

have called my father the night before, and he would come over and pick me up over in Madison and bring me back to Milwaukee, and then bring me back to Madison when the colonel was ready to leave. So your dad was able to see you in your uniform?

01:01:42.480 - 01:01:55.020

Yes, he was. And he was proud. Kelly: That's great. While you were at Cortland, were other WASPs then assigned to Cortland with you?

01:01:55.090 - 01:02:17.320

Steele: Yeah, there were two more. Betty Stagg, Turner, and I forget the other gal's name. There were four of us all together. Of all the airplanes you flew at Cortland, well, and including Avenger, what is still your favorite, or what is your favorite?

01:02:17.990 - 01:02:29.960

The AT-6. Okay. Okay. When you were going to start flying the UC-78 and AT-11s, did you have to take some additional

01:02:30.100 - 01:02:42.220

training? No, they just checked us out. They didn't give us any additional training. You know, we do five or six landings, and okay, you can fly.

01:02:43.680 - 01:02:57.860

While you were there, did you get temporary orders to go to any other type school? Yes, I went to that one in Orlando. Tell me about that one. Well...

01:02:57.860 - 01:03:12.400

OCS? Yeah, that OCS course. And they showed us what the Air Corps was working with at that time, and we got to see the B-29 at that time.

01:03:13.420 - 01:03:20.400

Where did you— Sorry, what was that like? The B-29. Did you get to go in the B-29?

01:03:20.620 - 01:03:28.000

Got to go in it. It was immense. Couldn't believe it. While you were at Orlando, where did you live?

01:03:30.010 - 01:03:40.020

We lived in barracks. Okay. So there were other WASPs from other sections of the country that came. Were there also male officers going through that same course with you?

01:03:40.440 - 01:03:55.280

I don't recall any male officers. What was the purpose of that course? I think just to make sure that we were aware of what was going on within the service, within the Air Corps at the time.

01:03:55.900 - 01:04:13.620

Well, and then I think—we got more training than that, though. Aircraft identification was one of them. I don't remember what the rest was. Military courtesy?

01:04:14.440 - 01:04:35.700

Probably military courtesy and customs, yeah. And when you finished that training, how did you get back to Cortland? I don't remember. Do you recall how you felt when you heard the WASPs were going to be deactivated?

01:04:38.860 - 01:04:57.860

Devastated, because we had hoped to stay in this program for a period of time. I was going to ask you what your expectations were when you graduated as far as military status. Well, Jackie was working on that, Jackie Cochran.

01:04:59.540 - 01:05:18.520

I was hopeful that we would be able to go into the military. And when you heard about the deactivation, what did you think you would do after you were deactivated? Did you have any plans?

01:05:20.720 - 01:05:51.060

I had considered getting into, now here comes my senior moments again, working in a tower. Control tower. Control tower, yes. I considered that. Did they offer you any jobs at Cortland? No, they did not. When you were deactivated, did the air base, the commanding officer, anybody do anything

01:05:51.220 - 01:06:00.180

special for the WASP? Did you have a parade or anything special? Not that I recall, no. So when you were–

01:06:00.180 - 01:06:10.320

We faded away. So what happened the day you were deactivated? Where did you go? They did provide transportation.

01:06:11.800 - 01:06:29.980

I got a ride up to Milwaukee in a BT-13. After you got to Milwaukee, then what happened next? I had been in civil service before with Rock Island Arsenal, and then we were in civil service with the WASPs.

01:06:31.240 - 01:06:54.380

I thought, "Well, I'll just go back to civil service." I applied and I was given the job of Secretary to the Maintenance Officer at the German Prisoner of War Camp at Billy Mitchell Field. So I worked there until the German Prisoner of War Camp was deactivated.

01:06:55.360 - 01:07:17.320

Then they offered me a job as a secretary to the director of the Wisconsin Intelligence Agency. Our agents were gathering information from the Wisconsin Prisoner of War veterans for the Nuremberg trials.

01:07:18.180 - 01:07:40.260

And then when that was deactivated, then I was offered the job of secretary to the adjutant of the Wisconsin Military District. And I stayed with them until I applied for active duty in 1952. Well, of course, meanwhile, we were offered a commission in 1948 when the Army Air Corps

01:07:40.360 - 01:08:05.180

became the U.S. Air Force. So I accepted that. Then I applied for active duty in 1952, and I requested duty as a pilot. Well, the letter I got back said, "Only male personnel are rated."

01:08:05.180 - 01:08:17.060

So that was the end of that. But the Air Force accepted me. Let me go back and ask you, Jeanette, to describe what this German prisoner of war camp was like.

01:08:18.800 - 01:08:37.520

Oh, this was on Billy Mitchell Field. Most of these prisoners of war were young fellows, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, their early twenties. They were happy to be in the United States.

01:08:40.500 - 01:09:00.020

One of the things I remember, they got a certain amount of money each month that they could spend in the exchange. And the exchange was always out of—what is it you bleach your hair with? Peroxide.

01:09:00.720 - 01:09:16.980

They were always out of peroxide. And all of these fellas peroxided their hair. So they were all blondes. The camp itself, was it an enclosed unit?

01:09:17.700 - 01:09:27.620

It was enclosed, yes. And did they live in barracks? They lived in barracks, yes. Were you ever able personally to communicate with any of them?

01:09:31.180 - 01:09:45.420

Some of them would work in our area, yeah. But they would march to where they were going to work, and they'd be marched back. Kelly: Who was in charge of this camp? Was it military?

01:09:46.180 - 01:10:02.600

Were they Air Force personnel, Army? Steele: It was military, but I don't recall if it was Army or Air Force. Kelly: Do you know how long that prisoner of war camp was in existence? It was only about two years.

01:10:02.770 - 01:10:22.420

Kelly: Were you there when it was deactivated or whatever? Litz: That I do not remember. Kelly: Then in the job that you had that had to do with the Nuremberg trials, explain that a little bit more.

01:10:23.580 - 01:10:39.900

Well, we had about ten or twelve agents that went out throughout Wisconsin. Were they FBI agents or CIA agents? I don't know. Don't know.

01:10:40.060 - 01:10:41.580

Okay. No. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

01:10:41.720 - 01:10:59.920

And they contacted our boys who had been prisoners of war and they interrogated them to find out if there had been any— Interviewer: Mistreatment? Ruth Parsons: Mistreatment, yes.

01:11:00.030 - 01:11:26.460

Interviewer: Okay. Did you transcribe those interviews? Ruth Parsons: Yeah. I was the only gal there, the only secretary that they had. So I was the secretary to the director, but then I also took all this information from the agents. Kelly: How long were you in that job?

01:11:26.680 - 01:11:54.440

Martinez-Montoya: I'd say another maybe three or four years. Kelly: While you were still there, did the Nuremberg trial start or was that much later? Martinez-Montoya: That was later. When you decided to join the Air Force, then what did your mom and dad think?

01:11:57.300 - 01:12:11.200

My dad, of course, he was all for it. In the meantime, was your brother still in the service, or had he gotten out? No, he got out. He stayed in for just the four years, and he got out.

01:12:13.260 - 01:12:34.700

What made you decide to go into the service? I enjoyed our WASP training and living. The camaraderie, everything. How was your Air Force service different from your WASP service?

01:12:37.780 - 01:12:58.260

Well, I got overseas assignments, which I didn't have as a WASP. Outside of that, it wasn't that much different. But of course, they had put me into personnel. When you first joined the Air Force, where were you sent?

01:12:58.540 - 01:13:02.300

Did you take the same oath again? Did they make you take it again? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

01:13:04.020 - 01:13:32.000

to Lackland Air Force Base there in Texas. I went to the officer basic military course. It was a three-month course. And I was the only gal in my class. Yes, I was the only gal in my class. All the rest, there were eighty-nine men and me. And I stayed with the gals that were in the class ahead of me.

01:13:34.700 - 01:14:00.740

And after that three months when you graduated from that course, where were you sent? I was sent to McClellan Air Force Base in Sacramento, California. And I went to the 2049th AACS, Communications Squadron, as a personnel officer. And then they gave me the additional duty of WAF advisor. So I had 250 WAFs that I had to advise. That was an additional

01:14:00.960 - 01:14:25.560

duty. And I had to check their barracks and I had to march them. And when we had Saturday morning parades, I had to march them. And if they had any problems, they would come to me to talk it out. And during this time, what was your social life like?

01:14:26.030 - 01:14:52.500

I was pretty active. And when you were reassigned from McClellan, where were you sent? I was sent to Prestwick, Scotland. And as it turns out, I was sent there to be the commander of the maintenance squadron,

01:14:53.160 - 01:15:19.360

but back in 1958, there were no women that were commanders of male squadrons. So they said, "Okay, we'll make her the family services officer." So I was a family services officer for just a short period of time, like maybe three or months and then I was made the Assistant Personnel Services Officer to assist the Personnel Services

01:15:19.600 - 01:15:54.800

Officer. I was only there for a year when our status changed. We had been a group and it was changed to a squadron. So my job was declared surplus. So I was then sent to the 16th Support Squadron in Chateauroux, France as a Chief of Administration. That's like being the adjutant to the commander.

01:15:55.750 - 01:16:22.080

So I was there for two years. That was a flying squadron. And then I was reassigned from there in '61 to Dover Air Force Base, Delaware. Let me ask you, when you were in France, were you able to have some time off to visit to

01:16:22.220 - 01:16:40.760

sightsee and that kind of thing in other countries? Anything about that you would like to tell us about? Well, I managed to get to Spain for about a week, and then I would take tours with the officer's wives.

01:16:42.620 - 01:17:00.520

I got over to Germany and France. I was in France. I got to Germany and I got to the Netherlands. I guess that was it.

01:17:01.700 - 01:17:17.420

Of course, while I was there, I would go out on inspection trips. I went to Greece, I went to Libya, and then I would inspect the records that they had there. That's about it.

01:17:17.720 - 01:17:24.760

Kelly: Okay. When you were reassigned to the States, how did you get back? Did you fly or come on a boat? Roslyn: No, I flew back.

01:17:25.520 - 01:17:38.820

And then your next station was what? After Dover. Well, let me ask you what you did at Dover. Oh, I was the chief of the Consolidated Base Personnel Office.

01:17:39.860 - 01:18:03.440

That's right under the Director of Personnel. And I was in charge of the military records and military assignments, deaths. I guess that was it. During your time in the Air Force, do you recall any specific officer over you that

01:18:04.420 - 01:18:33.740

made an impression on you one way or the other? The commander that I had there at the 16th, 16th in France, I enjoyed working with him. Did you ever encounter other male officers that might have been a little bit jealous of your position that showed it in any way?

01:18:33.820 - 01:18:36.600

Now and then. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

01:18:37.540 - 01:18:53.420

After you left Dover then, where were you assigned? Then I was reassigned to Peshawar, West Pakistan. And I was there for sixteen months. That was a change of culture.

01:18:56.620 - 01:19:28.260

In fact, I felt as if it was kind of primitive, the culture. The women had to walk three steps behind the men. If the woman was pregnant, she didn't sit on the mule, he did. In their households, for instance, most of their little villages, and we employed a lot

01:19:28.300 - 01:19:48.140

of the village people, in the little villages it was mostly made of water and mud, and their rooms. And then if they had a bed, he slept on the bed. She and the children slept on the floor.

01:19:49.680 - 01:20:07.460

It was completely different. Kelly: What was the purpose of that air base in Pakistan? Litz: We were the ears to the Russian communications. We were listening.

01:20:08.500 - 01:20:21.820

Kelly: What kind of aircraft were stationed on that base? Litz: We did not have any aircraft. That came in twice a week, once to bring our mail and once to bring our food. Okay.

01:20:22.940 - 01:20:31.340

What were your quarters like? Did you live on a base? We lived on a base, yeah. And it was like a barracks.

01:20:33.500 - 01:21:00.200

I had a large room, a room that was like as large as this room plus my dining room. And then you had a combination air conditioner/heater in one of the windows. When you would go into town where the Pakistani women were, how would you dress? Would you wear your uniform?

01:21:01.280 - 01:21:20.220

No, we did not wear uniforms. You had to wear clothes that had like your sleeves down to your elbow, and you couldn't wear shorts. You either wore a skirt or you wore slacks.

01:21:22.360 - 01:21:43.340

And how were you accepted by the natives there? Well, they had to kind of accept me because I was a director of personnel and my people employed their villagers. So in that sense, they had to accept me.

01:21:45.080 - 01:22:12.600

I do recall going into the village one time with my civilian personnel officer, who was a civilian, well he was a civilian and he was a male. And we were invited over to the village and we got picked up in a car and taken over to the village. And while we were going through the village, one of the little kids, I had my arm on the window like this,

01:22:13.120 - 01:22:40.220

And one of the little kids comes along and he snatches off my watch. And so I said, "Stop!" And I said, "I want my watch back before I do anything else." We were going over there to be feted by the village chief, and we were having a luncheon.

01:22:41.840 - 01:22:51.480

And so they made sure I got my watch back right away. (laughter) >> Okay, okay. >> Need to change that?

01:22:51.480 - 01:22:55.260

>> I need to change that. >> Okay. Oh, this is interesting. This is great.

01:22:55.260 - 01:23:03.380

>> This is very interesting. >> This is terrific. >> Well, you know, another thing when you would go outside the gate-- >> Okay, no, don't tell them.

01:23:03.800 - 01:23:11.820

>> Okay. >> Okay? >> Okay. >> Another thing was when you would go outside the gate, there would be a vent.

01:23:11.820 - 01:23:35.480

vendors out there, and they would want to sell you their products. But they also would have a ball, not a ball, what are those snakes? Cobra. Cobra. They'd have a cobra in a basket, and then they'd start playing their little flute

01:23:35.580 - 01:24:07.320

or their music, and then the cobra would start coming up, you know, like that. And that would kind of scare me. I didn't like that, when they did that. But we did have access to cars. We didn't have our own cars there, but we did have access to cars. And we could ask that one of the drivers would take us into town and then we would go in and do some shopping,

01:24:08.060 - 01:24:42.700

do some negotiating and buy. And when we would take a trip, oftentimes for the weekend we would take a trip up to Murray Hill, which was up in the foothills. And then our driver buying items. But we were told that we should not go more than ten feet off of the road because we could be attacked by the local people.

01:24:44.940 - 01:25:00.440

While you were there, Jeanette, did you ever get any information about the Russians that was of great importance? No, not that I recall. But then of course I was monitoring their life.

01:25:01.610 - 01:25:15.840

How many, about how many Americans were stationed there while you were there? Was it several hundred or several thousand? Oh, not thousands, no. I would say there were several hundred.

01:25:18.980 - 01:25:39.000

What was the biggest adjustment you had to make in that country? Well, the fact that you couldn't leave the base very often. You were pretty much confined to the base. We had a swimming pool.

01:25:39.000 - 01:26:00.400

We had clubs, officers and enlisted clubs. you did was on the base. Could you explain the difference between an officer's club and an enlisted club? I don't think there was very much difference.

01:26:01.320 - 01:26:19.100

But as far as being able to— Except that the officer's club was for the officers, and the enlisted was for the enlisted. Then eventually you got orders to come back to the States. And then where did you go?

01:26:19.700 - 01:26:43.480

And then I was assigned to Little Rock Air Force Base in Arkansas. What was your assignment there? It was the chief of the consolidated base personnel office. I had about four or five lieutenants under me, and I must have had about 120 people working

01:26:43.580 - 01:26:57.900

for me. At that juncture, what was your rank? I was a major at the time. When you came back from Pakistan, were there other women officers who came back at the

01:26:57.920 - 01:27:20.400

same time with you, or were you alone? No, I was the only woman officer on the base. We had schoolteachers there. Oh, I'm sorry. We had nurses there. We did have nurses. We had about eight nurses, but

01:27:20.420 - 01:27:44.480

I was the only one that came back at that time. And then we had schoolteachers. We had an elementary school there, and when the children graduated, they had to go up to Frankfurt, Germany to go to high school. They had to leave their families. When you came back to Little Rock, what was the name of that?

01:27:44.600 - 01:27:54.300

Was that an air base or was it a— Air Force base, yeah. And where did you live there? I lived off the base.

01:27:55.360 - 01:28:14.320

I rented a house in Jacksonville, which was right outside the base. Did you rent it—were you by yourself? I was by myself. And then your job at Little Rock, what were you assigned to do?

01:28:14.890 - 01:28:38.720

I was assigned, as I say, the chief of the consolidated base personnel office, and that included your military records, your assignments, personal affairs, which included any deaths that happened. So all that commercial training came in handy.

01:28:39.480 - 01:29:16.500

Yeah. And then of course, my boss, who was a director of personnel, he wasn't very healthy, and he'd have health problems, and then I would have to take over as a director of personnel. And then of course, that included civilian personnel, schools, education. When I say schools, I mean education. What else? It covered about three or four things. Recreational facilities.

01:29:17.840 - 01:29:40.620

As you would transfer, they would transfer you from one base to another, after having been there for two or three years, how hard was that to leave your friends? That wasn't hard, because you kept in contact with them by letter. Then you just made new friends?

01:29:40.720 - 01:29:51.320

You made new friends. How long were you at Little Rock then? Four years. At the end of that four years then, where were you sent?

01:29:53.360 - 01:30:08.320

Then I came home. I retired the 31st of August, 1972. I came home. Were your mom and dad still both there?

01:30:09.060 - 01:30:26.340

My mother was there. My father had died when I was in Sacramento. Then I thought, "What am I going to do now?" I was so used to working with people that I thought, "Oh, I'll go to a real estate

01:30:30.940 - 01:30:44.120

class." And then I worked for about six or seven years in a real estate agency. And then my mother's health started deteriorating. She was living with me.

01:30:45.080 - 01:30:59.880

And my mother's health started deteriorating, so I quit the real estate business and I just stayed home, took care of Mama. Were you living in Milwaukee? No.

01:31:00.180 - 01:31:36.380

When I came home, I bought a home in Menomonee Falls, which is just about ten miles south of here. And I lived in a rural subdivision on Septicum Well. And I left there about six years ago because I was tired of cutting my two-thirds acre and taking care of the snow, snow blowing. So I moved over here and it all gets taken care of.

01:31:36.480 - 01:32:01.880

Right. When you were at Minnoway Falls, did you raise vegetables or anything? Yeah, I raised my own tomatoes and letís see, what else did I have? Melons, carrots, France? I think that was it. Right. Of all the places where you were stationed, which one did you enjoy the most?

01:32:05.480 - 01:32:36.740

I think France, yeah. And yet the French people weren't that nice to us. I had a secretary was French, and I would go out shopping in the little village there of Chattanooga, and they'd always shortchange me. So I mentioned it to my secretary, and she says, "The next time you go shopping, I'm going with you." I said, "Okay." Saturday morning, so we went

01:32:36.840 - 01:33:12.040

shopping, and I bought what I wanted to get, and then they gave me my change, and I knew I was being shortchanged. So I said to my secretary, I said, "This is the change I got and this is what I bought." And she looked at it and boy, did she spiel out with her French. She told that gal, that clerk, "Don't cheat our American guests here." And from

01:33:11.920 - 01:33:32.800

And there on in, if I went over, I never was cheated again. And I learned French when I was over there. The only trouble is, my teacher was teaching me Parisian, not the provincial French. And then whenever I would go out and try to speak French, the Frenchmen would always kind

01:33:32.800 - 01:33:55.440

of shake their shoulders and say, "Je ne comprends pas." I don't understand. I think they rather resented our Americans being over there. I am telling you things that if you are putting this on video, I do not know.

01:33:58.180 - 01:34:19.880

What do you think the Air Force taught you? What did you learn from those years of being an Air Force officer? How to solve problems, how to be independent, how to be a pioneer. Right.

01:34:20.900 - 01:34:33.680

Let me back up for a moment and ask you, once the WASPs were disbanded, was that the last time you ever flew an airplane? No. Why would you tell us about that?

01:34:34.800 - 01:35:00.060

When I came home, I applied for my instructor's rating and I went out to Curtis, what was called Curtis Wright Field. At that time it's called Timmerman Field now. And I got my instructor's rating and I taught evenings and weekends there for about four

01:35:00.140 - 01:35:06.780

or five years. Did you have both female and male students? Yes. Yes.

01:35:07.980 - 01:35:28.960

What did you find? Were there any differences in teaching males than in teaching the females? I didn't think so. As you look back over your life, you've done so many things.

01:35:29.740 - 01:35:51.720

What is the one thing that you are most proud of? I think being in the WASPs. What was special about that? Well it was the opportunity to fly, and we were pioneers.

01:35:53.500 - 01:36:11.620

opening the gateway for other women, even though it took us twenty years before they were accepted by the military, the Navy first and then the Air Force. Kelly: Thirty-three years. Dyson: Was it thirty-three years?

01:36:12.580 - 01:36:18.360

Whee! Yeah, you are right. You are right. It was in the seventies.

01:36:20.060 - 01:36:36.760

And then I was annoyed because the Navy accepted the women first and the Air Force came in second. They should have accepted us originally because of what we had done. What do you feel the WASP accomplished?

01:36:39.060 - 01:36:59.440

Opening the gateway for women to get into not only the flying that we did, but broadening the horizons of the women. Kelly: In our lives, there are good times and there are bad times. There are happy times and there are sad times.

01:37:00.120 - 01:37:26.200

What got you through those sad times? Probably my faith. That always helped. Tell me, what is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP?

01:37:27.680 - 01:37:45.120

I thought she was fantastic for all the things that she had done. In fact, whenever I gave any talks, I would always include her whole lifetime, how she got started down in Florida. I guess she was a cotton picker.

01:37:46.920 - 01:38:09.100

And then how she brought herself up by her bootstraps. I would always include that, because I thought she was really a role model. Now that you are retired from the Air Force, how have you spent your time since you moved back to Milwaukee?

01:38:12.240 - 01:38:35.800

What is important to you now? When I first moved back, are you talking about my volunteering? When I first moved back, I volunteered for the Red Cross. And I would pick up students or children, they were actually young children, and provide

01:38:35.880 - 01:38:57.340

transportation for them through the Red Cross to the Menominee Falls School for Children with Learning Problems. And then I worked with that for a period of time and then I heard that the 440th Reserve unit was going to open a retiree activities office. And so a friend of mine, Felice Law,

01:38:57.420 - 01:39:31.380

and I went down there and talked to them and I volunteered there for 18 years, one day a week in the retiree activities office. And I think it was in '98, I felt it was getting too much driving. It's about fifty miles from here, or Menominee Falls, down to the 440th. So I resigned in 1998. So those are the things I did.

01:39:32.070 - 01:39:53.480

Kelly: And since then, now, how do you spend your time? Well, it's more church work now. Three times a week I do things for the church. And of course now, with my lack of eyesight, I can't drive and get around.

01:39:53.600 - 01:40:13.920

I'd probably be doing more, but I can't drive anymore. Jeanette, now, what makes you happy? I do not know everything, I guess. Kelly: What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be?

01:40:21.880 - 01:40:56.080

Well, I think that they opened the horizons for all women. Why do you feel that the history of the WASP was left out of all the history books? First of all, not too many people knew about what we had done. Maybe they did not think women were that important.

01:40:57.120 - 01:41:14.120

I do not know. Kelly: How important do you feel the history of the WASP should be? Martinez-Montoya: I think it should be very important. As you know, that's what this project is all about.

01:41:14.680 - 01:41:39.400

Yes. What is your opinion of what we are trying to do to get this history into those classrooms so that students of all ages can learn about this history, and even on the world wide web so that people all over the world can know about the history

01:41:39.480 - 01:41:56.940

of these women. I think it's very important. Very important. If you could say something to children of future generations to encourage them to try

01:41:56.760 - 01:42:13.040

to do their best and succeed as you have succeeded, perhaps not in the same field. What would you like to say to those children to encourage them? The Army motto, "Go for it. Do it."

01:42:15.740 - 01:42:28.400

From an Air Force officer. Right. Is there anything that I have left out, any of your experiences that I might not have asked you about?

01:42:28.670 - 01:42:48.700

Do you want to tell us? I have been active in military organizations. The Retired Officers Association, Milwaukee Chapter, I was the commander for two years and then I also became the state commander for the Retired Officers Association.

01:42:49.600 - 01:43:07.240

I have been active in reserve officers and I was the commander there for two years. And then I was the commander of the military order of World Wars, Milwaukee Chapter, for two years and their state commander for two years. Kelly: Wow.

01:43:08.600 - 01:43:27.860

I believe you have also been inducted in some kind of— Oh yeah, the Billy Mitchell Memorial Award by the Billy Mitchell Chapter of the Air Force Association. That was in June of 1981.

01:43:28.820 - 01:43:38.540

And is there a plaque somewhere with your name on it? I've got a plaque right here on the wall. I can show you. And how proud did that make you feel?

01:43:38.940 - 01:44:04.380

Very. And then I was featured in a book by Christian Fitzpatrick, a Wisconsin author, and she wrote a book called The Hero Next Door Returns, in which she has fourteen veterans that she has written about.

01:44:07.160 - 01:44:24.260

There are three women of those fourteen, and I was one of the women that she featured. She just brought that book out this year, 2001. Kelly: Wow. That's tremendous.

01:44:26.260 - 01:44:53.400

I wanted to ask you, before you graduated from flying training, there was an accident. Tell us about that particular accident and how it affected you. That accident happened just several days before we were graduating. Mary Housen, H-O-W-S-O-N, was, I think she was my bay mate.

01:44:53.580 - 01:45:11.140

I think she was in the other room of our barracks. She was coming in for a landing, and there was another student pilot coming in at the same time. But at the time they came in, they did not see each other.

01:45:11.220 - 01:45:37.600

One was coming in from the right and the other from the left on an approach to the airport, and they collided. Both of the girls were killed. Mary had been a very talented artist, and I was really upset when I heard that.

01:45:38.780 - 01:45:53.560

But it upset our whole class to happen so soon before our graduation. It should not have happened at all. Kelly: Then the next day, what did you do? Lowry: We had to fly.

01:45:56.460 - 01:46:08.680

Is there anything else that I've overlooked? Nothing that I recall. You'll think of it after we're gone. Well, if I do, I'll send you a message.

01:46:10.020 - 01:46:15.280

Can I ask you? Sure. Because you took, didn't you take voice lessons? You said you took voice lessons?

01:46:15.320 - 01:46:19.280

Yeah. Did you not sing as a WASP? Did you sing? No.

01:46:20.980 - 01:46:42.280

After I got home, I joined the Belcanto Choir here in Milwaukee, which is a very well-known choir. But I don't sing there anymore because now my voice cracks. Do you recall in training for the Easter program that we had a glee club? Did you sing in that glee club?

01:46:42.400 - 01:46:49.800

No, I didn't. Well, we sang the Hallelujah Chorus. Man. (Kristen laughs)

01:46:50.060 - 01:46:54.820

- Where were you? - I don't remember that. I should have. - I have the program.

01:46:55.760 - 01:47:05.460

- You do, huh? - Anything else, Nance? - No, except I remember you talking about search and rescue missions that you flew on CAP.

01:47:06.740 - 01:47:15.060

Did you ever get to rescue anybody? Is that-- - No. - Did you just fly patterns or-- - We flew grids, yeah.

01:47:15.360 - 01:47:26.780

patterns, right, yeah. But no, we didn't get to rescue anyone. I still think it's very cool. You have been delightful. Thank you.

01:47:26.900 - 01:47:37.780

What a wonderful life. What a wonderful life. Oh, I tell you, if it wasn't for my father, you know, he was the one that said, "Why didn't you learn how to fly?" And my whole life has been premised on that.

01:47:39.380 - 01:47:49.120

I think your father was a patriot. He was. He was. And he taught his daughter well. Yes. Yes. I agree.

01:47:49.880 - 01:47:56.720

[Laughter] Okay. And when I asked you about a role model, I thought maybe you would say your father. You seem to be a...

01:47:56.720 - 01:48:05.540

You know, I should have. Yeah. You seem to be a father's daughter. Yeah. Well, my sister-in-law says that my father favored me.

01:48:05.760 - 01:48:12.880

Yeah. [Laughter] Did your brother ever see you in uniform? No. I was afraid of that.

01:48:14.600 - 01:48:23.140

Youíve been great, Jeanette. Thank you. Tell me, do you, youíve got pictures around your house of some really good looking people in wedding gowns andÖ Well, thatís my niece.

01:48:23.240 - 01:48:37.480

Who are those people? Yeah? Thatís my niece. And then over here is my nephew and his family. How many children does your brother have? Heís got three. One boy and two girls.

01:48:37.480 - 01:48:45.180

Before you take that off, let me ask you. No, that's okay, you can hold it. Let me ask you, are you the favorite aunt? Yeah, I am.

01:48:46.800 - 01:48:52.980

[laughter] That's a good answer. So is Nancy. I am the favorite aunt, too.

01:48:53.580 - 01:49:04.160

I never got married. I used to be single once. And I'm wondering what's the significance of the Piper Cup. Remember when I asked you about those spins?

01:49:05.480 - 01:49:16.080

Yes, you do it. That's right. Tell us about the spins and the Piper Cup. I'm just going to... That's okay. I'm going to record right now. And why you did it.

01:49:17.340 - 01:49:33.580

Well, I was flying out at Curtis Wright Airport, and the AMVETS came to me and they said, "We're having our convention up in Manitowoc, and we want to have a central figure for our convention.

01:49:33.580 - 01:49:54.580

"Will you attempt to break the spin record that was set previously of 48 spins?" And I said, "Well, I got to talk to my parents." So I talked to my parents, and of course my father again said, "Do it." And so I said, "Okay."

01:49:54.600 - 01:50:26.280

So we went up to Manitowoc to the convention, and they said, "Okay, now you take the aircraft up and it was a Cub J3 and then spin it and just make sure that you do more than 48 spins. I said, "Okay." So I went up to 9,000 feet and of course it takes a while to get up there and then they said, "When you see a Jeep going around, that's the time for you to do your

01:50:26.180 - 01:50:56.160

spin. And I said, "All right." So when I once got up to 9,000 feet, then I kept checking to see when the jeep was going around. And when I saw it, I started my spin and I did 64 spins. And before I was getting, you know, I noted that I was getting close to the ground, so I had to get out of this. So I did the spins and got out of it, and then it was corroborated

01:50:56.160 - 01:51:30.260

by an FAA representative plus two AMVET representatives. And then later, that was in May, May 31st of 1946, I think it was. And then later that year, the South Shore Yacht Club was having a get-together, or frolic it's called, and they asked if I would do the spin again. And I did it again.

01:51:30.780 - 01:51:41.740

This time I did 73 spins. But this, it was corroborated on the ground. I mean, they kept watching me spin. But it wasn't official.

01:51:43.080 - 01:51:52.880

You follow what I mean? There wasn't an FAA representative there, you see. But I did do 73 spins the second time. So are you in the Guinness Book of Records?

01:51:54.300 - 01:52:04.500

No I didn't go into the Guinness Book of Records. It's a national record. No one has ever broken it. But I never even applied for the Guinness.

01:52:06.860 - 01:52:13.580

Let's see what we can do about that. Absolutely. You know what, when I was... No it's rolling audio.

01:52:25.140 - 01:52:27.020

[end of transcript]