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I'm Deanie Parish. We're interviewing Janet Downer. Whoops, let's start over. See, I make big goose. Downer. You said Downer. I did?

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Uh-huh. Do it again. Downer. Downer. There you go. Okay.

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[laughter] [sigh] where you were born? I was born Janet Cora Hatch in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. I was born on a dairy farm and that was the year 1919. Tell me about your mom and dad. Well, dad

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was both my parents are devout Christian people. And we were always raised with that in mind. We always were attending a church and our parents cared for my sister Lois and myself.

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We were the first two girls. Then I had two more sisters. And so where we lived was Maplehurst Farm. It was in Eau Claire County.

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And dad had, he didn't have the cows himself, but he had all of the farms around there where he gathered their milk and cream, processed it at our dairy plant,

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and delivered it into the city of Eau Claire. So that was the kind of work he was doing. And mother was, of course, a housekeeper. And she helped dad with the delivery records,

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checking in the drivers. We probably started out with four routes. And ended up years later with about 20 in a large retail dairy.

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- Do you recall out on this farm, did you have chickens? - Yeah, we had rabbits and chickens and dogs and cats. And we didn't have, we had some horses. Dad used horses to, in the winter,

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it was rough in Wisconsin. You had to hitch up the team to the sleighs and go to the farms to get the milk. Milk is something you have to take care of every day.

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You can't let it wait. - Do you recall, did they use milking machines then, or did they milk by hand? - By hand.

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It was before the days of milking machines. - How far out from town did you live? - Well, it was about five miles. - Do you recall how you would,

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Did you have a car or did you have a horse? - Well, when dad made his first money, he bought a huge seven passenger Oldsmobile. And it was convertible and it was red and it was beautiful.

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And his mother thought he was crazy. I know one time dad was taking the whole family for a ride and we went into this farmer's area where you had to go through barbed wire fences, gates,

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to get to the house. And this big pasture on the road in, there was a bull, a dairy bull, and they can be mean. And this bull saw this red car and he took off after us.

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And well, they had gunned it. We went through the next gate without stopping Who won? [Laughter]

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I guess your dad won that one. That was one mean bull. I don't know if you know about cattle, but you know, Herefords, like the western cattle, the bulls are not dangerous,

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but dairy bulls are really dangerous. Wow. How many bulls to heifers? - Well, that farmer probably had 20 cows and he had two bulls.

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- Right, men have the upper hand. - Yeah. (both laughing) - Tell me about your grandparents.

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Where did they live? - Grandmother Jenny Hatch lived in Eau Claire and grandfather Fred lived also in Eau Claire. He was kind of in the dairy business too.

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He was an expert with the cream separators and he knew how to sell them and repair them and so that's what he did. Grandmother would come out to the farm

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and we would go picking blueberries and I loved Grandmother Jenny. She made the best gingerbread cookies with sugar frosting, and she'd make donuts.

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I remember Grandmother Jenny. My younger sisters didn't know her, but Lois and I did. - And your other grandparents? - Well, they were out in Washington State,

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so I didn't really know them. But Grandfather Edgar, in later years, came to live with us. My mother provided a home for him.

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He was widowed. - Janet, tell me what a Christmas was like in your home growing up. - Christmas? It was just a regular family Christmas, and a tree and presents, not too many.

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I remember the one Christmas we had kind of a disaster. Our home burned. So there wasn't too much of a Christmas. But we did have tangerines and those heart-shaped candies.

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- Where did you live then when your house burned? - Well, my dad sold Maplehurst Farm and bought Rudolph Farm, closer to Eau Claire, which helped them in the dairy business. And that was a huge farmhouse, it was three stories high, had fireplaces on each floor.

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In the attic, the fire started and that burned. Did they ever know what caused it? No, some kind of spontaneous combustion in the attic. How long this farm, did you have running water and electricity?

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Dad put in a system of electricity in the basement. There were all these jars and manufactured electricity. To begin with, we had gasoline lamps until Dad got that system. At Christmas time, since your family was involved with church, do you recall any church programs

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that you went to? How did their church celebrate Christmas? Yeah, we always had Christmas programs, and we took part in it. How far was church?

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Was it five miles also? Was it in town? Yeah. Okay.

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First Baptist Church. Did you go to Sunday school? Oh yeah. B-Y-P-U.

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Are you from the Bible Belt? [Laughter] We're in the buckle of the Bible Belt. What kind of a belt?

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We're the buckle of the Bible Belt. Oh, the buckle. Wacol is the buckle. We have the largest Baptist University in the world.

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Belair is wonderful. Right. They train wonderful. Do you recall when you started school? Yes, I went to a country school. It

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was two miles away. My sister and I walked. When it was bad weather, very cold, mother would have our hired man hitch up the horse to the sleigh and we had a big And Buffalo put over us, and we're all dressed real warm. And a guy would drive us to school and come and get us.

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Was this a one-room schoolhouse? How long did you go to that particular school? To what grade? Well, I was there through, I think, five grades.

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I went to junior high school in Eau Claire. I know we had a wonderful teacher, Miss Spiele, and she boarded with us. She lived in our home. She lived to be 90 years old.

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My sister sent a newspaper article about her. Do you recall in elementary school what you were interested in, what you enjoyed about school? Well, I know how they set it up.

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She would handle grades, different grades at different times, and the rest of us would be sitting at our desks until our turn came. I know I was good at spelling. I still am.

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I just loved everything about learning, always did. Was your mom and dad involved in your school? Do you recall? Not actively.

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Were they on a school board? I know they were involved in maintaining the school. Again, this is another disaster, the school burned. We were there the day it caught on fire.

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We all got out. Then we had to go to a substitute farmhouse where they set up a school temporarily, and then they built a new school. When they built the new school, was it still just a one-room schoolhouse?

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Did the schoolhouse have electricity and water, bathrooms, or did you have an outhouse? else. When you were growing up, how did you spend your summers? Well, we always went to Bible camp at Chetak, and that was a wonderful experience because I love sports. I always look forward to that.

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When you finished fifth grade or sixth grade, then you moved on into junior high, how did you get to school every day since five miles? You know, this is kind of different, because I was 14 and Dad taught me how to drive a Model T Ford, and he got tired of taking me to school, so he said, "Take the Ford and

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and take herself to school. I was the only kid in junior high that had a car. (laughing) - Do you recall any of your teachers in junior high

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that might have had an influence on you? - Well, I remember a wonderful teacher. His name was Clarence Emesland, and he was kind of a cartoonist.

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And he was also a lot of fun. And so he's kind of sparked an interest in me in drawing. I know he drew a cartoon of me in my model T-4, bouncing on the road.

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- Do you happen to still have it? - I don't think so. - What was your social life like when you went into junior high and high school even?

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How large was this town you lived in? Well, at that time, Eau Claire was 10,000, 15,000 people. When you went into junior high, that was quite a change. How difficult was that to adjust?

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Didn't seem to be difficult for me. Actually, it was a huge old building that my dad had gone to school in that building. He played on the football team. I think dad interested me and helped me in sports and helped me learn to be self-sufficient

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and drive tractors and teams and hitch teams. My dad was a big influence in my life. So actually he was your role model. Yeah.

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See, he didn't have any sons, and that was the problem for him. What sport did you particularly like? Softball. Were you good?

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Yeah, I was. When you were in school, did your school compete against other schools? Did you have teams? - Not so much.

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Mostly in the summer we had municipal programs. And that's when I was on a ball team and we competed with other teams. - And then when you went on into high school,

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were you in the same building or did you change? - No, it was senior high school. - Was it a different building? - Yeah, much larger.

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- More students. - When you went into high school, what was your ambition? - My ambition, get through school. - Did you have a dream of what you wanted to do

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when you finished school? - See, I was handled a little differently than the average person because at the time a Baptist school, and they were, you know, it was hard times back in the 30s. They were

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hunting for students, and so mother and dad sent me to Whalen Academy in Beaverdale, Wisconsin, which is a private school, and what they call a college prep school. At what grade level were you? That was my junior and senior year.

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I was there two years. Graduated in 1936. - How far was that from home, and how did you get there? - Well, I went on the train.

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- Oh, okay. - This marvelous train they called the 400. It went from Chicago to Minneapolis in 400 minutes. And it stopped in Eau Claire.

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So I'd go home at Christmas time and I'd go out to the depot at Beaver Dam and I'd be the only person standing on this platform and this big train would come and stop to get me. It was fantastic.

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At this college prep school, where did you live? In dorms. Did you have roommates? Yes.

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Dave Convis was my first roommate. And I was the only person standing on this platform. And I was the only Her father was a minister.

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What was your favorite subject in that school? What did you enjoy? I enjoyed the ones where I could draw. In history, I could draw maps.

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In zoology, I could draw bugs. - I kind of, where I started out was, I do have artistic talent. - Do you know where you got that?

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- From one of my parents, you mean? I don't know where that came from. - Okay. - My sisters are all musical, pianists, organists, vocalists

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but I was a tomboy. - Right. I was gonna ask you if there were any extracurricular activities that you participated in other than academics?

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At Beaverdam, at Whelan Academy. Either one, speech or music? We had a lot of activities. We had, besides the sports,

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we had, well, what would you call it? We had to present comical skits or whatever. and debate teams. Did you ever get involved in any of that?

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Yeah, I participated in all of it. But mainly my big interest was the sports. Once you got into this

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college prep school, then did you have teams that competed against other schools or was it all within that school? No, we competed with other prep schools. There's quite a few in southern Wisconsin. Do you recall any teachers, with the exception of your drawing teacher, art teacher, any

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other teachers that were outstanding to you? Well, there were two that lived in the dorm where the women, girls lived, and I remember them as being inspirational and caring. Well, when we'd come back from, once in a while, we'd let a bunch of us go to town,

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and we weren't very nice. We'd go to the Walgreens store and we'd get cigarettes and we'd go down in the basement and smoke those cigarettes. Then we'd get toothpaste 'cause, you know,

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Miss McDowell was going to smell of our breath when we came in the door. - And where did this independent spirit come from? - I don't know.

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- Wow. - And what were your other social activities? (laughing) - Well, we had a lot of activities going on,

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musicals and what all, way on. - In the meantime, who was driving your car? You left it at home. - I left it at home.

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I didn't have a car. I had to go to my bicycle. - Do you recall, did you have a prom or a banquet or something before you in your senior year

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or junior year? - Well, we had a dining room and then we had tables with what, six people at a table and one of the teachers always at one of the tables.

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Do we have a banquet? I don't remember that. I don't remember graduation. As far as students, how did the ratio between male and female at the school?

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It was about even. Do you recall your graduation? I don't seem to remember that. I know mother and dad came down for it.

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They drove down, I think they drove me back home with all my stuff. And by the time you graduated, did you have a goal in mind, what you wanted to do? Yeah, I wanted to go to University at Madison and get a degree in physical education. That was my goal.

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And what did you actually do? When you came home that summer, what did you do during the summer? Did you get a job? Did you play? Several summers I was camp counselor. At least at a Baptist camp or was it?

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Mostly YWCA camps. And what was your job as a camp counselor? Well I was a teacher of sports of course, swimming, horseback riding. So the summer that you came home from, after you finished school, were you a counselor

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that summer, do you recall? No, not until I got into college. And where did you go to college? Did you go that fall?

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Well, my mother was a very domineering kind of a person, and she controlled the money, and so you did what she decided was best for you. So I went to La Crosse Teachers College first, and that didn't work out, so I went to Wheaton College.

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You probably know about that. Mother thought the University at Madison was much too dangerous for her little daughter, I would get in all kinds of trouble and stuff, so I had to go to Wheaton. She didn't know about that basement cigarettes, did she?

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No. Because I went to Wheaton, a lot of my credits didn't transfer, and so it took me five years to get my degree at Madison. You started off at La Crosse.

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How long did you go there? I finished a year there. And then you went on to Wheaton. How long did you stay at Wheaton?

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Well, I lasted a semester. I really resented the way they treated you at Wheaton. It was like Gestapo. I was rebelling against too much religion, I guess.

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Do you recall at Wheaton any of your professors that you might have liked? One professor was political science. He was a wonderful man. If there had been more people like him, I probably would have stayed longer.

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Do you recall one that you really disliked, and what there was about that particular professor that made you dislike him? Well, one thing was the way they handled the sports program. We couldn't show our legs. Our legs had to be covered.

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We had bloomers and then these long stockings. And then this one professor would come out there to see that our legs were covered. And if they weren't, I had to stop and pull up my stockings. And this kind of thing, not my cup of tea.

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So how did your mom feel when you decided that you were no longer going there and you were going to go to the school that you really wanted to go to? She came around to my way of thinking that if I was going to be a physical education teacher that I had to go to Madison.

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I remember she giving me $500 to buy clothes. So I went shopping in Madison and got nice clothes. They took me down there and helped me find a place to live. I ended up in a sorority house.

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They took in certain numbers of independents to meet their money demands. I never did join a sorority, although I was invited to several. I stayed independent. Do you recall why you made the decision not to join a sorority?

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I guess I have a strong need to be independent. At Madison, do you recall any professors there that made an impression on you? Well, what I remember about the University of Wisconsin is that many of the professors are very agnostic and they have a big influence on people.

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And after that, I didn't go to church for years. But basically I was always having deep Christian feelings. Do you understand what I'm saying? I do.

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Did you make any lasting friendships while you were at that university? Well, do I still contact any of those people? No. Have you ever been back to any kind of reunion? Pretty much not.

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Right. And when you graduated from there— I did have one really great friend, Mary Tom Morgan, who was from Amarillo, Texas. And through her influence, I was able to interview Mr. Cheely of Denver and go to their wonderful

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camp in Colorado as a counselor. That was one of the great experiences of my life. Mary Kahn was a wonderful gal. Tell me about that camp. What made that camp wonderful to you? - Well, it was out west, that was one thing.

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And in the beautiful location of Estes Park, they call Rocky Mountain National Park. And in the '40s, it was much different than it is now. I just loved everything about it.

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The horses and the people and the buildings. So then when you graduated from Madison, from the university, do you recall that graduation? Well, this was the thing. I didn't participate in it because I had to report to Chile camps early, so they mailed me the diploma and stuff.

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What kind of student were you in college? Well, a little above average, that's all. I wasn't outstanding. When you finished the camp that summer, then what did you do?

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I reported to Mosonee, Wisconsin, to my first teaching position. What kind of school? Junior high? A high school.

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A high school. And what was your job? Well, it was a smaller school, so a teacher usually had to teach two different subjects. So I had a bachelor's in science, so I taught biology and women's, girls' physical education.

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Do you recall any of your students that you felt were really outstanding? Well, this Mosonyi is a famous paper mill town. And most of the people were Polish. And so I had some of the Polish girls were outstanding athletes.

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But mainly what I was interested in was the airport at Warsaw, to the next city and learning to fly. - Where did that interest come from? - Well, thanks to my dad, I knew how to drive

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and run tractors and do everything else. I thought I might as well learn to fly too. - Did you know any other girls who were flying? - No.

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- So what made you think that they would accept you? - Well, our home in Eau Claire was next to the airport. And I had a cousin, Edgar, and we built model planes together, flew them.

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And whenever some event was happening at the airport, we were always there. I met Wiley Post. - What was that like?

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- Exciting. - I went for a ride in a Ford tri-border. - What age was that, Janet? - Well, let's see.

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It was during high school. - And how did your mom and dad feel about you going up in an airplane? - Dad's all for it.

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Dad would fly with me, but mother wouldn't. So recall for me that first flight up in that tri-motor. Were you the only passenger? - No, they were selling tickets for $3

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and there were a lot of people in there. What was most exciting was a friend giving me a ride in a side-by-side Taylorcraft. We're up about 3,000 feet and he says,

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"Well, would you like to see us spin?" So, down we go, and I think that's when the bug really bit me. And was that in high school also? Yeah.

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Okay. So, now you're teaching school, but your heart is out at the airport. What gave you the courage to go out and ask about taking lessons, or how did that come about?

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I got my little Oldsmobile and I drove up to the airport and I went in the office and there's this nice blonde lady holding a little baby. So I talked to her about learning to fly. Her father, Archie, was the instructor and he was out with a student.

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She said the baby was not hers, it was Archie's youngest. They lived in the hangar, and I think the baby was the eighth child. He had a large family, and they all lived in that hangar. So I just looked around the office and finally got to talk to Archie, and he'd already had

00:34:54.500 - 00:35:18.640

taught women flying, so he didn't think it was strange that I wanted to learn. So he accepted me as a student. Do you recall how much your lessons were? Yes. I know solo was three dollars an hour. What was instructing was five. I don't know.

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I can't remember. Did your students in school, did you tell them what you were doing? Do you remember any reaction that you got? No.

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Recall for me your solo flight. Only bounced it once. That is a defining moment. You remember yours, Dede?

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Yes, it is. What was your goal or what did you dream of doing with those flying lessons? Did you know anything that was possible to do as far as earning a living with those flying lessons?

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Not at that point. Okay. It was just, I loved it, I know that. What did you really enjoy doing?

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straight and level? Well Archie was an exceptionally good instructor and I enjoyed every part of it and cross-country, forced landing, everything. And I even went into secondary training with him. He had a really nice Waco by plane and I got to fly that, learn acrobatics.

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- Did you like acrobatics? - Yeah. - Aerobatics. While you were, before you ever went into WASP training,

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is that when you were able to take your dad up? - He would fly with me when I'd fly back to Eau Claire and of course I had to have a private license first. Excuse me.

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I'm doing an awful lot of talking. - It's your life. You've lived a lot of years. - Well, what was another defining moment

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was on the bulletin board seeing an announcement of the WASP program. So, that was my goal from then on. Let me back up a minute and ask you where you were when Pearl Harbor happened, and if you recall how you felt about that.

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I was driving my Oldsmobile, '37 Oldsmobile, from Madison up to Mosonee to report for teaching. I had the radio on, and I heard President Roosevelt. How did that change your feelings about America? I knew it was going to be a lot of changes.

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I knew I had to continue flying and do whatever I could. At that point, had you already gotten your private license? Or were you in the beginning training? To get in the OSP at that time, you had to have 300 hours.

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So that was what I was trying to do. So I accepted a job in Milwaukee at Curtis Wright Airport as a dispatcher. I didn't get any salary. My folks helped me with my living expenses, and I took off flying time.

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So for your work, they would let you fly to compensate, more or less. Were there other girls flying there also? And eventually, when did you apply for training? You know, this is something I don't remember the actual date.

00:39:41.400 - 00:40:00.640

I think it was after I got the $300. And then by the time I reached Sweetwater, they'd reduced the requirement quite a bit. I'm not unhappy that I had that much, because it helped me get through the check rides.

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Those were really stressful times to pass those check rides. You know that, Deanie? - Right.

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What did your mom and dad think when you told them that you were going into training? - Well, I was doing something for the war effort, And so it was okay.

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Good. Okay, we're going to change takes. Okay. You're doing great!

00:40:29.980 - 00:40:38.640

Thank you. And you look marvelous. If I only photographed that way. I'm sure you will.

00:40:41.040 - 00:41:05.240

Let me ask you, you saw a notice about the flight training for the WASP. Yeah. How did you make contact then to find out about being accepted? Well, there was an address to write to, and I don't know why this part of my life is so

00:41:05.360 - 00:41:12.740

vague. Do you recall if you had to have a physical? Oh yeah. Where did you go for that?

00:41:12.840 - 00:41:31.460

The Love Field. Was that a difficult... were you the only girl? Ruth: No, I passed it all right, thankfully. How did you get from Wisconsin down to Texas?

00:41:32.300 - 00:41:48.080

Ruth: Well, I came to Waco because my sister and her husband were stationed there. He was in flight training for me. He was a good pilot. I stayed with them until I went to Sweetwater.

00:41:49.260 - 00:42:07.200

In the meantime, had you met any other girls who were going into training? What were your expectations about the training and what those girls were being used for or would be used for? Did you know what to expect?

00:42:08.940 - 00:42:26.640

Not really. Why did you think they were training girls? Well, I knew the story of the Wasps and Jackie Cochran and Nancy Love, and I knew all about the history of it.

00:42:27.900 - 00:42:43.620

And the original training was in Houston. And I was glad that I got to go to Sweetwater. Do you recall, did you go out on the train in Sweetwater? No, I had my car.

00:42:47.120 - 00:43:19.400

When you arrived at Sweetwater, do you recall the first time you saw the line of different airplanes out at the Venture Field? I remember first of all the parking lot and the dust. Going from there to administration and then going to supplies and getting all of your

00:43:19.840 - 00:43:44.500

equipment and your B2 jacket and B4, what was it? I kept wondering when I was going to see the flight line. Did you meet some of the other trainees that were going in before you got out to Avenger? Or did you go direct?

00:43:44.500 - 00:44:16.520

No, I just landed there by myself. Describe whatever you want to about the training to be a WASP. Well, I was really impressed with the administrators and the instructors, the way it was set up, the check rides, check pilots, the military people.

00:44:18.320 - 00:44:41.260

I loved my five bay mates, and these are the people I've kept in contact with the most. Did any bay mate wash out? One transferred to a later class. Her name was Dee, D-E-E-E.

00:44:44.400 - 00:45:00.680

Do you recall? I'm sorry to see her go, but I think she eventually made it, and she's been a good wife. Do you recall any outstanding instructors that you might have had that encouraged you? I remember them all.

00:45:02.460 - 00:45:28.060

Reno Cormier was a PT-19, so he gave me a good basis of how to fly militarily. I thought I was a pretty good pilot, and he convinced me that I wasn't that great, which was the very first thing that happened to me and the best thing that happened to me. I was a little arrogant about my flying.

00:45:30.120 - 00:45:50.020

Was there ever a time when you were afraid while you were in training, when you were flying? Any incident that might have caused you to be a little bit afraid? There was only one incident that kind of got me.

00:45:50.220 - 00:46:15.680

It was night flying in the 1817s. There was a lot of lights on the ground, and they were burning off natural gas, which made a lot of lights. And I don't know exactly what happened, but I saw a light, probably came from the ground, but I thought it was another airplane coming at me.

00:46:16.480 - 00:46:36.760

And I quick, you know, made evasive maneuvers, and there was no airplane coming at me. It was just some other light. That's the only incident I recall. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make in going into training?

00:46:40.780 - 00:47:05.260

Well, I think I adjusted pretty good and didn't have too many big problems. Did you have cross-country flying in training? Describe perhaps one of those cross-country flights. Would there be a lot of airplanes going in the same direction, and would you all go together?

00:47:10.400 - 00:47:30.640

Well, one flight was to Amarillo, and this was with the twin engine. There was a group of us who all made the same flight. When you went on that flight, were there two WASP trainees in each airplane? - No, it was one instructor and one,

00:47:31.400 - 00:47:46.760

I was in the left seat, instructor in the right seat. You had to watch your gas tanks and change over and do everything right. - What was your favorite airplane in training?

00:47:48.320 - 00:48:05.300

- Same as everybody else, I guess, the AT-6. - What was so special about the AT-6? I don't know, it was just a beautiful machine that North American built. What were the other aircraft that you flew while you were in training?

00:48:07.820 - 00:48:23.140

The Fairchild PT-19. I liked that airplane very much. It was real stable, wide landing gear. I didn't fly the Stearman until later.

00:48:24.620 - 00:48:38.220

We didn't have a Stearman's at Sweetwater at that time. And then the BT-13. I know you're impressed when you first get in there and see all those instruments, but it soon becomes familiar.

00:48:39.660 - 00:48:58.640

Then the AT-6 and then the AT-17. While you were there, did you have some time off, free time? How did you spend your time? We had Sundays off, and we didn't go to church.

00:48:59.000 - 00:49:20.400

We went to a couple rodeos, one at Big Springs. One time we had a visit to medical—there was a big medical attachment at Amarillo. What was it? Abilene.

00:49:21.340 - 00:49:33.900

What's between Sweetwater and Dallas? Zabaly. We visited there one time. We saw all these doctors marching in review.

00:49:34.580 - 00:49:46.240

If you want to see something funny, it's to see a bunch of doctors during the march. [Laughter] Between phases of training,

00:49:46.580 - 00:50:02.440

were you given several days off or any time off? Or what were the phases of training that you went through? Ruth: Well, it was primary, basic, and advanced. Two different planes in advanced.

00:50:03.050 - 00:50:10.580

Kelly: While you were there, did Ms. Cochran visit the field? Ruth: Yes. Kelly: Did you ever meet her personally? Ruth: Mm-hmm.

00:50:11.360 - 00:50:35.480

A wonderful woman. While you were in training, did you have uniforms? - No, we didn't get the final uniform until later. We were wearing mostly khaki and white shirts.

00:50:37.000 - 00:50:51.180

- Okay, and about how long did your training last? - It was six months. And do you know any difference between your training and that they were giving the male cadets at the same time?

00:50:53.300 - 00:51:09.640

Ruth: It was pretty much the same, I'm pretty sure. Kelly: While you were at Avenger, were you aware of what the girls who had already graduated, of what they were doing? And was that what you expected to do?

00:51:10.560 - 00:51:28.500

- Well, we had a choice of bases. Fortunately, I chose Arizona, and I know some of the bases that WASC chose weren't the greatest of receptions.

00:51:29.260 - 00:51:57.680

I've heard those stories. I feel I was very fortunate to go to Marana. All of the men in engineering that I worked with were gentlemen and kind and helpful. For your graduation from flight training, what was that graduation like?

00:51:58.760 - 00:52:20.560

Were there celebrities that came? Yes, we had—it was December and it was cold. Our ceremonies were inside a hangar. We had, I don't remember the speaker, it's in the lost book, it describes it.

00:52:23.620 - 00:52:40.800

And then you were given your orders, did you have some time off between training and reporting for it? I had time to go back to Wisconsin, see my parents, report to Marana on the second day of 1944.

00:52:42.400 - 00:52:56.720

- When you got to Marana, were there already WASPs there? - There were four of us originally, and we were the first ones to show up there. - And to whom did you report?

00:52:57.940 - 00:53:13.800

- To the officer of the day, And then I was assigned to test engineering, number three. - What was the primary mission of that air base? - Basic training of cadets.

00:53:14.000 - 00:53:20.240

- The training command? - Yeah. - Where did you live? - We shared barracks with the nurses.

00:53:22.860 - 00:53:36.500

- And describe what an engineering test flight would encompass. - Well, I would report to our operations building in the morning, after breakfast,

00:53:37.800 - 00:53:56.940

and receive instructions for the date, the airplanes to be tested. And before that began, Lieutenant Sponzilli checked me out. He had to know about my flying skills and my abilities.

00:53:58.240 - 00:54:17.020

He was very cooperative, very good man. So then when he decided I was okay to do testing, then he started assigning me different aircraft to test. One thing you did was slow timing.

00:54:18.040 - 00:54:40.520

You flew a BT-13 for three hours. It's slow time after an engine change. Other changes, elevators, rudders, ailerons, whatever, were short test hops to see that it functions okay.

00:54:41.540 - 00:55:05.440

After you landed, you filled out the—there was a number for that manual, your observations So the flying and how it operated. - While you were there and your off-duty time, what was the social life like at Marana?

00:55:07.120 - 00:55:23.340

- Well, we, of course, had access to the officers' club. And there was a bar there. The WASP would get together and play cards, enjoy a cocktail.

00:55:26.040 - 00:55:43.020

Sometimes I became friendly with some of the WAC officers and if we had a day off or a couple days off, we would go up to Phoenix, visit Captain at Luke Field.

00:55:45.800 - 00:55:56.840

- Was this a special captain? This man, you couldn't believe him. He was terrific. He was a captain in charge of the mess hall,

00:55:56.840 - 00:56:15.400

and he had a crew of black work enlisted men. And so he prepared a dinner for this WAC officer and myself. And then he showed us, I don't know what kind of a man has a mind

00:56:15.400 - 00:56:30.920

where he can blindfold them and he can play checkers, and you just tell them the number of your move and you can win the game. - And how often did you fly down to Luke?

00:56:32.760 - 00:56:46.620

- Well, we drove in my car. Fortunately, I had good tires. - Did anything serious become of this These visits?

00:56:48.570 - 00:56:58.060

Nothing serious. Nothing serious. Okay. While you were at Marana, didn't Miss Cochran ever visit your base? Yeah. Tell me about her.

00:57:01.580 - 00:57:21.140

I was thinking about Avengers. She didn't visit Marana when I was there. Okay. Then I'll ask you that toward the end. while you were at Marana, then eventually you got orders to go someplace else. The ferrying jobs, besides the testing.

00:57:23.420 - 00:57:51.340

And when you would ferry things, would it be from your base to another base? No, we were loaded on a cattle truck, taken to a primary base at Tucson, and we flew the PT-22s, the Ryans in the Burbank, where they were rebuilt, and then fly a rebuilt Ryan back to Tucson, and then they would transport us back to Marana.

00:57:53.160 - 00:58:14.840

This was a group of men pilots and WASPs. They'd fly a lot of planes at once. How long did you stay at Marana? Let's see, I was there until, I was, well, they selected a group of 15 WASPs to go into

00:58:14.960 - 00:58:31.260

special training at Randolph Field to become instructors, and I was in that group. Do you know how they selected that group? Were they all from Marana, or from other bases also? They were from other bases.

00:58:32.340 - 00:58:50.600

Do you know how you were selected? Possibly because I had a career in education. When you got to Randolph, where did you stay? Where did we stay?

00:58:54.020 - 00:59:08.980

Now that's kind of vague. I remember I was in the same barracks area with Ann Noggle from Albuquerque. She lives in Albuquerque now. She's done a couple of great books.

00:59:09.860 - 00:59:20.920

She's become a wonderful photographer, photographed a Russian women pilot. You know of her? We became good friends. Good.

00:59:21.600 - 00:59:37.420

And what did you do at Randolph? Is that just a transition period? This was really top-notch training. I remember I had an exceptionally good instructor.

00:59:38.100 - 00:59:57.440

He was not a large man, he was about my height. We learned night flying, formation flying, acrobatic flying, the whole caboodle. What kind of airplanes? The BT-13.

00:59:58.380 - 01:00:16.680

But it was the best of the BT-13s with the all-metal wings. I think they were stronger than some had plywood wings. Then how long did you do that? How long was the training?

01:00:16.890 - 01:00:38.600

That was in April. It was eight weeks, almost two months, I'm pretty sure. It would be in my log books. Okay. And then when you finished that training, were you sent someplace else? Back to Marana.

01:00:38.920 - 01:01:00.920

Okay. And then back at Marana, you did the same things, or did you do the same? I was an instructor, assigned to an instructor group. And who were you instructing? Well, they divided cadets in the groups of five, alphabetically, by their last name initial.

01:01:02.320 - 01:01:22.360

So I had five students. I ended up with five Chinese students. We had a special group of Chinese there learning instrument flying. How did those Chinese students compare with your American students?

01:01:24.420 - 01:01:50.180

Language was a problem. They were dedicated, wanting to learn, struggling with language. How long with that training would your class last and then you get a new class? Well, actually what happened is because of the fact that I was a woman and they only

01:01:50.380 - 01:02:17.540

had ready rooms fitted for men, they didn't have special accommodations for me to prepare to fly and put on my flying clothes, so forth, so forth. So they decided that it wasn't feasible. So I was taken off of that duty, and that's when I applied for a transfer to Nellis in

01:02:17.640 - 01:02:26.180

Las Vegas. Okay. And they honored that request? Then when you got to Nellis, what was your assignment?

01:02:27.180 - 01:02:43.780

We first went into training, transition training, on the TB-26, because we were going to tow targets. Okay. When you asked for that transfer, did you specify where you wanted to go or did they just assign you?

01:02:44.400 - 01:02:55.980

No, I requested Las Vegas. When you got to Nellis, were there already some WASPs there? Yeah. And were they in training or were they doing other things?

01:02:57.200 - 01:03:17.080

Some were already flying. and we had a WAC officer that gave us some training, and then we had flight training, and then we were assigned to, how'd they do that?

01:03:22.580 - 01:03:46.520

Anyway, I ended up mostly co-piloting on the B-26 And we'd go to the flight line early in the morning, like four o'clock, and on the B-26 you had to pull the props through. So we had our flashlights and checked out the airplanes and pulled the props through

01:03:46.620 - 01:04:14.460

to get the oil moving. On the B-26, the oil temperature is critical so that the four-bladed props on the R-2400 Wright engines would work properly. So you had oil coolers that you controlled from the airplane to keep the temperature

01:04:14.460 - 01:04:39.640

and the propeller is exactly on the mark. Then he didn't have any problems. So we'd go to the flight line and fly the airplane from after we got it all ready. I flew mostly with Lieutenant Parker, and he was an old-time instructor, and he helped

01:04:39.640 - 01:05:00.320

me a lot. We fly to Indian Springs, which is where we took off. This was how the mission worked. You get the airplane ready, you fly to Indian Springs, and at a certain time you take off

01:05:00.860 - 01:05:25.140

and you rendezvous with a B-17 in the air in a certain area. And then the enlisted crew lets out the targets, and you fly a four-hour mission at this godforsaken country in Nevada, the end of the world. What altitude do you recall?

01:05:26.100 - 01:05:36.480

Yeah, it was 10,000 feet. We had oxygen. Boring missions. Okay.

01:05:36.880 - 01:06:04.060

Just a red thing? thing is trying to stay awake. What would those, your training gunners, what kind of ammunition, would it be live ammunition? And do you recall how they would check to see how accurate those gunners were?

01:06:04.700 - 01:06:30.800

Each gunner had ammunition with different colored paint on the tip of the ammunition. So when the mission was over, we'd fly to a drop area and drop the target, and then the targets were scored that way, by the color. How long did you stay at Nellis?

01:06:32.380 - 01:07:01.320

Deactivation. What was the social life like at Nellis? Did you go to Luke occasionally? No, we stayed in Las Vegas and went out to the Strip. You know, at that time there were two casinos, Frontier Club and El Dorado. That was it? That was it.

01:07:05.540 - 01:07:29.800

I remember Howard Hughes used to come up. We'd see him occasionally. A group of us would go out to a casino and watch all the action, have a good dinner. And eventually how did you learn that the wasps were going to be deactivated. How did I learn that?

01:07:32.500 - 01:07:47.560

I don't remember. Do you remember how it made you feel? I know we all felt downhearted. We didn't want to see this wonderful program end and the war was still going on, you know.

01:07:49.200 - 01:08:09.780

And did you feel that you were helping that war effort? In the meantime you had gotten new uniforms. How did you feel when you got those new uniforms? Well, it gave you a feeling of pride, really.

01:08:12.220 - 01:08:23.780

When the WASPs were deactivated, did Nellis, the air base, do anything special for the WASPs? No. Just hung up your parachutes and went home.

01:08:24.900 - 01:08:32.600

So where did you go back home? Where did you go? No, I went to California. I had a close friend that lived there.

01:08:34.840 - 01:08:56.960

I applied for, well, you know, you've got to make a living, and so I applied for training to become a weatherman with the Federal Weather Service. And I went into that training, and that didn't work out.

01:08:58.020 - 01:09:15.500

So there was another program I heard about, I applied for, and that was the J.P. Riddle Company taking radio instructors in aircraft instructors to Brazil.

01:09:16.530 - 01:09:39.620

So you actually flew to Brazil? Yeah. What was that like? We had a ride with Colonel Earl Johnson, who was delivering C-54s to the Air Force in Brazil.

01:09:41.980 - 01:10:06.660

And he took all of our classmates with him so that we could report to Escola Técnica de Aviación. Before that, he had four months of training in Portuguese in Coral Gables, Florida, with the J.P. Riddle Company.

01:10:09.280 - 01:10:54.520

And when you got to Brazil, then what did you do? Well, we lived in a hotel, and we reported to the school, and we were assigned classes. And I was teaching aircraft instruments to Brazilian cadets in Portuguese. What do you think, was that easier or harder than teaching the American cadets?

01:10:56.560 - 01:11:10.260

Well, it was harder because of the language. Unfortunately, there was always one of the students that knew English and could help you. Were you able to fly at all while you were in Brazil?

01:11:10.840 - 01:11:26.900

No. So how long, where did you live? We all lived in different hotels. Every morning they would bring you a breakfast, always the same, one banana, one hard roll,

01:11:28.460 - 01:11:48.900

And a cup of coffee, and a great Brazilian coffee. How long did you stay there? Well, you see, our contract was for a year. Then we were flown down there, and we were flown back at the end of the contract.

01:11:49.880 - 01:12:07.820

And then what did you do? I went home, back to Eau Claire. Made your mom and dad happy. So when you got to Eau Claire, did you get a job there then?

01:12:08.940 - 01:12:30.180

Yes. After we were deactivated, I was in California, Pacific Palisades. They had a wonderful opportunity for us. We would go to the CAA at that time, and they would just give us a commercial license.

01:12:31.920 - 01:12:49.000

So that's what I did when I got back to Eau Claire. I did some flying, and I wanted to get my flight instructor rating, so that's what I did then. I was teaching flying.

01:12:50.040 - 01:13:15.900

And how long did you do that? Well, finally up until 1960. We were deactivated in '44. And I was working with Skyways, Incorporated for five years, training students.

01:13:16.000 - 01:13:48.440

And in 1961, they ended that GI training program. And so we closed the flight school and sold airplanes and went back to Eau Claire and went to work in the family dairy in the office. And at some point you met someone special. My boss at Skyways.

01:13:50.500 - 01:14:04.200

[Laughter] And where did you get married? Well, we finally ended up in La Honda, Colorado. And we're married by the Justice of the Peace.

01:14:04.800 - 01:14:16.400

Did your mom and dad know you were going to get married? Did they approve? Okay. And then did you come back to the dairy farm?

01:14:16.500 - 01:14:27.100

Or what did you do then after you were married? Oh, boy. Well, let me ask you this. What attracted you to that young man?

01:14:29.500 - 01:14:52.240

What were the qualities that he possessed? He was a very excellent pilot and a wonderful instructor. And he was just really good with students. And he was also a sportsman.

01:14:53.650 - 01:15:13.800

He was an excellent trap shooter and rifleman. He was an Olympic rifleman, and a wonderful bowler. Was he a better softball player? [Laughter]

01:15:13.800 - 01:15:23.900

Just a sport, he was good at it. He was the only man I couldn't beat. [Laughter] That's a good answer.

01:15:25.920 - 01:15:54.680

From the time you married him until the present time, you can tell me anything you want about that life or not, whatever you would like to have recorded. Well, I had a 20-year relationship with Walter Allen and had some wonderful hunting experiences in Canada and in the West.

01:15:57.880 - 01:16:28.980

We ended up in Montana in a hardware business. After that failed, we went to California, and we were flight instructing there in California. One thing led to another, and there was a lot of separation times, and the marriage ended.

01:16:32.610 - 01:16:57.520

So then I went into social work. At the time in California, they passed public laws that required a lot of social workers. So if you had a degree of some kind, you could almost work wherever you wanted to. You'd get all kinds of offers.

01:16:59.000 - 01:17:30.920

The California counties were desperate to comply with the regulation for social workers. That's what I ended up in. But eventually you moved to Phoenix. Let's see, I retired from my social work work in 1984.

01:17:38.660 - 01:17:50.900

And now you live in Phoenix? And how do you spend your time now? Well, I live in a wonderful mobile village, and we have a lot of activities.

01:17:51.400 - 01:18:09.040

And when I arrived here about eight years ago, I joined the Stingles Club. And I became involved in leadership in that club. And so I did that for about three years.

01:18:09.980 - 01:18:27.840

And this is a marvelous place for a widow to live. You have close friends and people caring about you and your neighbors care about you. Lots of activities.

01:18:30.640 - 01:18:47.640

- Janet, of all the things that you have done, what is the one thing that you're most proud of? Probably the WASP experience. I mean, still these days,

01:18:47.740 - 01:19:04.080

you get a lot of recognition about it, and people want to know more about it. A young woman from Arizona State University did an oral history in one of her projects.

01:19:04.890 - 01:19:25.840

So always something like that happening. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? How will they be remembered? Historically, as part of World War II, and kind of on the leading edge of the women's

01:19:25.960 - 01:19:50.300

movement. Tell me, I know you've already told me that you admired Ms. Cochran. else about her and about the program that she put together? What is your opinion of that particular WASP training program and getting women involved in flying?

01:19:52.060 - 01:20:21.960

Well, I think she did us all a great service. Her story is remarkable as to how she began. a woman of determination and setting her goals, meeting her goals. Being a beautiful woman, besides being a wonderful pilot, even General Yeager admits that she was a really good pilot.

01:20:24.480 - 01:20:44.320

That's something. If you could say something to children in future generations as they listen to you, what advice or what would you like to say to them that might encourage them to follow their dreams?

01:20:48.040 - 01:21:17.440

What would I say to encourage young people? Well, this is kind of a hard question. I think a faith in God is one requirement, and I know that it's meant the most to me. God has taken care of me through a lot of scary times.

01:21:19.160 - 01:21:44.400

So to follow your dreams and the fact that you're a woman shouldn't hold you back. Is there anything that I've left out? Anything at all that you want to talk about so that it will be recorded for posterity actually?

01:21:48.540 - 01:22:05.060

that I have not thought about. Well, I admire both of you women for the job that you're doing, and it's not easy to take off

01:22:05.140 - 01:22:16.660

and try to find all these flaws. But we're so glad we found you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

01:22:18.160 - 01:22:29.540

Children, I'm going to thank you for children and future generations because you are an inspiration. Well, thank you, Denny. Thank you, Nancy. Oh, are you kidding? This has been great.

01:22:29.540 - 01:22:36.540

This has been our pleasure. Really? The WAC officer? No, the WAC that had gone down. No.

01:22:39.700 - 01:22:48.200

Okay, well let's ask... I don't remember that. I'm going to ask you, what did that WAC officer teach you? Tell us again.

01:22:49.630 - 01:23:10.300

Well, we went through procedures, learning the parts of the airplane, and I don't remember too much. All I just remember was this thing about the teeth. I don't think they liked us too well.

01:23:11.560 - 01:23:26.880

Could you explain again about the wasp who was killed and the importance of that as far as that WAC officer was concerned? Let me tell that story again. Yes, please.

01:23:28.220 - 01:24:02.980

Well, after arriving at Nellis, we had training before we were allowed to fly. One of our training was done by a WAC officer. So we WASPs were gathered together in a hangar, a ready room, and she was telling us about the accident in which a WASP was flying as a co-pilot on a TB-26, and they made a forced

01:24:02.980 - 01:24:33.860

landing in a desert area where there was sand dunes. And the, evidently, was the gear-up landing and the sand came up over the airplane, came through the front window, and smothered both the pilots. So when they were trying to straighten out all the mess, the only way they could identify this woman was by her dental records.

01:24:35.400 - 01:24:50.120

So this WASP thought it was very important for all of us WASPs that were based there to have our dental records available. End of story. - Wow.

01:24:50.820 - 01:25:05.920

That's an amazing story. I think that's an important story though. Can I ask you, and these are just things that I've thought about, because social work has got to be rewarding at some point, or it's real frustrating, I'm sure.

01:25:06.510 - 01:25:22.800

Do you have a case that stands out? In social work? Mm-hmm. Well, I work mostly with the elderly, and you meet all kinds of things, women and beginning

01:25:22.800 - 01:25:47.720

Alzheimer's and the strange things they do. This was a ranch in California in the Sacramento area. The husband's mother lived with them. She started accusing her daughter of taking her underwear and taking other things.

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She would take food and hide it in her bureau drawers. So that was my job, was to solve the situation and place the woman, because she could no longer live in that home. It's heart-rendering, really.

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I've always loved elderly people, and I enjoyed working with them. More than children? Yeah. I knew better with the elderly.

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Who's the cowboy in the little counter all of your— That's my grandniece, my grandnephew that lived here. Do you get to see them very often? Well, actually, last Tuesday night I was babysitting them.

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We had a great time. Oh, that's wonderful. Are your siblings still living? Yes.

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- Do you get to have family reunions? - Yes, I get back to Wisconsin. My youngest sister is in St. Paul and my other two sisters are still in Eau Claire.

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We get together. They're always wanting me to fly back for something. - Good. And when was the last time you were in an airplane,

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you were piloting, I should say, an airplane? Well, I gave up my flying in 1980. My eyes changed quite a bit, and so I thought that I'd better hang it up. I belonged to a flying club in the Sacramento area.

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It's expensive to fly now for sure.