00:00:02.820 - 00:00:17.540

But both my kids are so sorry that we didn't get him to tell his story. Jane, the rules are you don't have to answer it if you don't want to. If you want to stop, just tell me and we'll stop. Okay, we'll see you later, Don.

00:00:17.560 - 00:00:34.260

I'm wrong. I'm Deanie Parrish. We're in the home of Jane Basler-Doyle. One of our favorite WASPs. Grand Rapids, Michigan. She was a WASC class 44-4. Today is the 18th of July, 2001.

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Okay, Jane, if you'll tell us your name and when and where you were born. My real name is Mildred. My first name is Mildred, which I have never gone by until I had to start using social security numbers and that. So my name is Mildred Jane Bessler Doyle, and I was born here in Grand Rapids, Michigan on October 13, 1921.

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Good. Jane, tell us about your mom and dad. What were they like? My mom and dad were just plain people who just appreciated the small things in life,

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nothing really special or anything. My father worked for the railroad and he was gone most of the time. He would leave on Monday morning and come home on Friday night. My mother had the family to take care of.

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She was born in Missouri and they met in Missouri because he had come over from Germany. He had stayed with some people in Lake Edessa, Michigan and had started working for the railroad and had to go to Missouri on some railroad project and he met her down there. They were married in Missouri and came back to Cadillac, Michigan and then moved to Grand

00:01:52.880 - 00:02:07.560

Rapids within a year. They lived there all their life and I did too until I went in the service and traveled around for a while and then came back to Grand Rapids. Tell us about any siblings you have.

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My oldest sister was a teacher for many, many years. She taught the disabled children and during the polio epidemic, that's when she started working with disabled children. So she taught them until her retirement. My brother was, well there was five years between each one of us and my oldest sister was fifteen years older than I was. So I was never really

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too close to my brothers and sisters, except the sister next to me after we were married why we became more close together. My brother was an architect and he was also a musician. He played the French horn and played in the symphony.

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He went to the University of Michigan and then my next sister went to Michigan State, so there was always a rivalry between Michigan and Michigan State. When I decided to go to college, I went to Michigan too because he had mostly, but I also played the French horn because he did.

00:03:15.440 - 00:03:29.660

I was really close to him, and yet I really do not remember much about him when he was young except playing the horn and going away to school. Good. Describe where you lived when you were growing up as a small child.

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Did you live in town or did you live out in the country? No, I lived right close to where downtown Grand Rapids is now. was just a mile from downtown. The whole neighborhood was railroad families.

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So that's it. Most of the men were gone during the week. It was just a small house. I used to walk downtown and walk all over, where now I wouldn't go near the neighborhood.

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What are your earliest remembrances of childhood, of growing up? Really when you think the earliest remembrances were that I was always in trouble. That seemed to be my life experience when I was small. I always wanted to be with my one sister and she didn't want me tagging along so I would

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do things to irritate her or irritate her friends. And then I always remember my, with other people too, my being told, "Jane, be quiet," because I was always correcting people and they didn't like that. And I think about that often because I think that's what's influenced me a lot with

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my life now. I don't want to correct anybody if I disagree with them and I just sit and listen instead of carrying on a conversation. Where did you begin school?

00:05:08.240 - 00:05:23.880

In Grand Rapids in a public school. How far did you live and how did you get to school? I lived almost a mile from the elementary school and I walked. rain, snow, any type of weather, we walked back and forth to school.

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In those early years, do you remember any of the games you played? Did you learn ice skating? Croquet, I remember playing croquet, but that was really the only game. I had a scooter and I loved my scooter.

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I used to go on that all the time because we lived right at the top of the hill and a block from where the train came through from Detroit to Grand Rapids. So I would wait at the top of the hill and watch for the train to come back from Detroit and then ride my scooter down to the depot to meet my dad when he came home.

00:06:02.140 - 00:06:16.160

Did your dad bring you treats when he would come home? What was it like when he came home? No, I just always looked forward to him coming home. I think probably because I did not get in trouble with him as much as I did with the

00:06:16.160 - 00:06:34.760

rest of the family. Special things that he would do for me too. It was always something special when he did something with me. Kelly: When you started elementary school, how large a school was it?

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It was a pretty good-sized school. I would say there were maybe twenty-five in a classroom. Could you tell us about your grandparents? Not much. My mother's father was in the Civil War, and my grandmother lived with us when I was young. Well, she sort of lived with us and was my mother's brother in Detroit.

00:07:01.400 - 00:07:21.460

She would be part of the time with us and part of the time with them. The only things I really remember about her is that she was quite fragile, had asthma, but she loved to quilt. She would make quilts and her sisters would come from St. Louis in the summertime to get

00:07:21.520 - 00:07:30.120

away from the heat in St. Louis and they would sit and make quilts all summer long. Did you learn to quilt? Yes, that's what I'm doing right now. My fingers prove it.

00:07:31.680 - 00:07:44.500

They're sore. But my father's parents I never did know because they were in Germany and they died before I was born. Was your dad ever able to go back to Germany to visit?

00:07:45.500 - 00:08:00.080

No. When he came over the first time he came with his father and sister to Philadelphia and stayed there a year. And then they went back to Germany and then his father wanted him to come back to the

00:08:00.080 - 00:08:14.800

United States. He lived in the United States because of the wars in Germany and everything. So he came to the United States and he was the only one. In elementary school, do you recall any of your teachers that might have had an influence

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on you? No, I don't think they had an influence on me. I remember some of them. Others I have no recollection of.

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Do you remember what you enjoyed learning in elementary school? I liked music. I remember playing in the orchestra. I played the violin and I hated it, but I played it.

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And the music teacher I think had an influence on me because he only came to the school maybe once or twice a week, and I always enjoyed going to the orchestra. The art teacher also, I remember that. But the other teachers, there's no special subject today.

00:09:02.080 - 00:09:15.940

These instruments that you played, where did you get them? They belong to school? Did your parents have to buy them? Well my sister played the violin, so there was a violin in the family.

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And then my brother had a French horn, so when I started playing the French horn, I used -- at first I used the school horns, and then when he quit playing, why, then I used his. Okay.

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In elementary school, did you have any kind of competition, or was it just a music class as such? Just a music class, I think, yeah. Okay.

00:09:45.700 - 00:10:07.080

What a Christmas it was like in your home when you were growing up. Oh, it was a special time because I know like the week before Christmas we hung a stocking at the end of the bed and if we were good we got an orange hair stocking. But there was a family that lived across the street from us, an elderly couple that had

00:10:07.160 - 00:10:26.180

no children, and I spent most of my time over there. My other sister and I both, they just enjoyed the two of us and we practically lived there. If we couldn't get what we wanted at home, we'd go over there and tell them and we'd get it from them and go eat with them and things like that.

00:10:26.680 - 00:10:40.440

So Christmas Eve, they would always come over to our house and we would have Christmas together. Would you have a Christmas tree? Mm-hmm. But it wasn't put up until that day.

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We didn't put it up like we do now, weeks at a time. Would your mom and dad put it up during the night? No, I think we put it up like the morning before Christmas. We always had Christmas on Christmas Eve because of this other family coming over with us.

00:11:00.000 - 00:11:15.660

But on Christmas Eve, was the tree already up? I don't know where we went, and then all of a sudden Santa Claus would be there. Do you remember anything special that you got at any one Christmas? The scooter.

00:11:17.400 - 00:11:27.900

I always liked my scooter. Did the other children get a scooter? I don't know what they got. I always wanted a bicycle, but nobody would let me have a bicycle.

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They were too dangerous. And the family across the street, the one that talked to my folks, would let me have a bicycle. And what was Christmas dinner like?

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Who would come? Would you have relatives that came? I have no recollection of Christmas dinner. I just remember Christmas Eve, having the tree up and having them come over and that's

00:11:51.440 - 00:12:06.040

it. During the wintertime, did you learn to ski and ice skate? Well, I learned to ice skate when I was in high school, but before that I never did. No, we would just take a sled and go sliding.

00:12:09.060 - 00:12:19.820

We didn't have skis at that time either. During the summer, I know sometimes your aunts came, but otherwise did you have a summer vacation? Did you ever go out of Grand Rapids?

00:12:20.360 - 00:12:34.300

We went back and forth to Detroit a lot because my father working for the railroad, we would take the train to Detroit. Well, then the uncle in Detroit had a cottage at Brighton, Michigan, and we would go down there and stay.

00:12:35.200 - 00:12:48.860

Was it on a lake or something? What was fun? me it was Brighton Lake. And I can remember they had a, there was a dam across the lake and they had a rowboat. And I would get in the rowboat and row over to the dam and sit

00:12:48.940 - 00:13:04.440

there and spend most of the day and then row back. And I think now I didn't have a life jacket or anything else in here. I was maybe ten years, ten, twelve years old. And I wouldn't think of letting a child go in a boat now without a life jacket. Did you learn to swim there?

00:13:05.340 - 00:13:21.140

I never really did learn to swim. I can swim, but not good. But we used to go to a cottage in Holland, too. This family that lived across from us, his sister had cottages at Lake McLaTower, and

00:13:21.140 - 00:13:42.160

we'd go over there usually for a week and spend a week there, too. But as far as swimming, I just, I still can't swim. When you finished elementary school, did you have to move to a different building? In seventh grade, we went to high school, went to the high school and through our senior

00:13:42.360 - 00:13:52.260

year. Okay. In junior high school, were there teachers there that you remember who might have had some influence?

00:13:53.480 - 00:14:06.740

Just the music teacher. Still in junior high? We were real close friends all the way through junior high and high school. In junior high, then in music, did you compete at all?

00:14:06.910 - 00:14:21.420

Were there competitions? Not as such. It would be the whole group, the whole band and orchestra that would compete with other high schools and junior highs and so on.

00:14:22.260 - 00:14:34.420

But not much competition. As a member of the band, did you have uniforms? Yes. In fact, there were three of us girls that wanted to be in the band.

00:14:34.780 - 00:14:52.640

The high school principal said we could—he finally agreed that girls could be in the band, but we couldn't wear the band uniform. And then he finally agreed that we could wear the band uniform, but we had to wear skirts. So there were the three of us that were in the band in high school.

00:14:53.180 - 00:15:03.820

So you were the first three girls to be able to be in the band? Wow. You are a pioneer. I am, pioneering a few things.

00:15:05.340 - 00:15:20.500

Do you recall what that uniform looked like? It was just a navy blue uniform with the jacket and the skirt at first. In fact, I have pictures of it and the skirt is down to my ankles, just about down to my ankles and the hat.

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And then finally they let us wear the pants. But then when I went to Michigan, see, they wouldn't let girls in the marching band at Michigan either. So I was in the concert band down there.

00:15:36.620 - 00:15:56.940

In high school, were there other things that you were also interested in outside activities, for example sports? No, I never really cared much for sports. A speech, drama, anything else other than your band or did that take up most of your

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time? That took up most of my time. I just enjoyed all my subjects really. Do you recall any competition that stands out in your mind as far as band?

00:16:10.260 - 00:16:35.960

Well, I went to Ann Arbor for three weeks and there was a competition there. It was sort of a clinic, so there was competition between the players. Where did the band perform ordinarily? Many activities in town, like parades and things like that.

00:16:36.760 - 00:16:46.380

How about high school? Football or basketball? Football and basketball. That's why I didn't pay much attention to sports because I was always in the band and

00:16:46.400 - 00:16:58.900

we were playing for the sport, for the teams. And would you do halftime shows? Yes. When you were in high school, who were your role models?

00:17:02.580 - 00:17:16.680

I always had to do well because of my brothers and sisters that were ahead of me. My brother and sisters, they were. But other than that, role models, I really didn't have any role models. What kind of student were you?

00:17:17.340 - 00:17:35.360

I was a good student. I was on the Honor Society. What part did your mom and dad play as far as your school activities? Did they attend the things for you children that you were in at school?

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Well, my mother did. See, my father being out of town most of the week, he wasn't able to attend too many things. But education was very important to both of them, and they wanted to make sure that we were good students and that we went on to college. That was really important to them.

00:18:04.440 - 00:18:18.660

In high school, what was your social life like? Oh, it was active. Dances and—well, at that time you'd have dances right in the school, where now you don't.

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And really just about every other week they'd have a dance that you could go to. And school plays and things like that. Did you have anybody special that you would go to the dances and dance with? Oh, sure.

00:18:36.660 - 00:18:44.160

Oh, yes, one very special person. Okay, why don't you tell us about that? Your children would watch you at that. Oh, I haven't thought about that.

00:18:46.160 - 00:18:51.380

I don't think I better tell about that. Okay. That's okay. I mean, I don't know if somebody else...

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Right. Let's go on and let me ask you about your high school prom. Did you go to your high school prom? Yeah, I went to my prom.

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What did you wear? Oh, we wore long dresses at proms. Describe that high school prom. Where was it?

00:19:07.760 - 00:19:25.620

It was in the school gym. Did you have an outside band that came in? I think so, but I think it was probably a group of high school students that had formed I don't really remember what the bands were at that time.

00:19:31.220 - 00:19:52.120

Was your older brother always kind of your guardian angel as far as dates? No, because he was gone by the time I was in high school. He was in college and then he graduated from college and was working in Detroit. your high school graduation?

00:19:55.260 - 00:20:09.720

I played in the orchestra with high school graduation. So those that were in the orchestra, they went up at the end and received their diplomas. Did the rest of your class wear caps and gowns? No.

00:20:11.600 - 00:20:32.840

So you had to play for your own graduation. While you were in high school, Jane, what were your ambitions? What did you think you would be doing after you graduated? Did you know you were going on to college?

00:20:33.370 - 00:20:47.340

I knew I was going on to college. My brother was an architect at that time, and so then he wanted me to always go in with him. I didn't really study art in high school.

00:20:47.340 - 00:21:06.140

I took a couple classes in high school, but then when I went to junior college, I started taking art classes and engineering drawing classes and that, so that I could go into the field with him. I went into interior design then and never followed up because I went in the last.

00:21:07.720 - 00:21:20.120

When you started junior college first, where did you live? Did you live in the same house? Okay. And then how long did you go to junior college?

00:21:20.120 - 00:21:33.040

I just went to junior college the one year because I couldn't get the classes there that would transfer, so then I went to Michigan. Okay. Then when you went to the University of Michigan, did you still live at home?

00:21:34.180 - 00:21:55.100

Well, I lived in the dorm down there the first two years. Did you have a roommate? I had three roommates to begin with. When I first went down there, we had single rooms because there were only—the four corners

00:21:55.100 - 00:22:09.380

of the dorm that had rooms with more than one person in. So we all had single rooms. I remember walking into that room and thinking, "It's just like a cell. I don't know if I can stand in here."

00:22:09.380 - 00:22:23.540

But after a week, boy, it was home. Do you recall any of your professors in college? Did you stay with music while you were in junior college and then at Michigan? Yeah.

00:22:28.320 - 00:22:50.500

Well, that's at the band director at Michigan. At the time when I went there, see, I'd gone those three weeks when I was in high school and I had gone down there for this band clinic and he became a very good friend and so when I went to Michigan, that's it, I got right in the bands with him.

00:22:53.100 - 00:23:08.520

But then I studied art. Describe your uniform at the University of Michigan. Well, we couldn't be in the regular band, it was a concert band, just regular clothing. And in the concert band, where did you perform?

00:23:10.420 - 00:23:34.740

Mostly just programs there at the university. As you continued on in school, tell me when, where you were, and what you remember about Pearl Harbor. I was in the third floor of the architectural building trying to catch up on a project that

00:23:34.580 - 00:23:55.860

I had to get finished when someone came in that Sunday morning and said the Pearl Harbor had been bombed. And there were quite a few of us that were working there on different projects at the time. And I remember the fellows being very upset and wondering what to do. I mean, right away they reacted to going in the service or doing something. Where at the

00:23:55.860 - 00:24:19.080

time I didn't think that much about it. I knew it was a serious situation, but other Other than that, I didn't think much about it until a few days later and more things came out about the bombing and that we were going to be at war. Then I stayed there that summer and there were all the V-12 programs and different programs

00:24:22.400 - 00:24:45.940

for fellows from other schools that came too, before they went right into the service. How did you become interested in flying? Well, when I was at junior college that summer, well before the summer, towards the end of the first semester there, I had heard about the CPT program.

00:24:46.670 - 00:25:02.920

Okay, and what does CPT stand for? Civilian Pilot Training Program. Because I was taking some engineering drawing classes while the fellows were all talking about it and I thought, "Oh, that sounds interesting. I think I'd kind of like to

00:25:03.000 - 00:25:30.940

do that." So I inquired about it and I got the application to be in the program and then they said that they would only take one girl for every ten fellows. So I got into it, but I had a problem getting into it because of my height and I laid in bed the morning before I went for my physical and to stretch as much as I could stretch and then go take the physical

00:25:31.060 - 00:25:46.240

so I would pass it. So that is how I got into it. That summer, after my first year of junior college is when I got my private license. Did you know any other girls who were flying?

00:25:47.780 - 00:25:58.820

No, not at that time. I did not except—well, there were two others then that went in because there were thirty all together in the home program that summer. So there were two others that went into it at that time, too.

00:25:59.480 - 00:26:13.660

When you told your mom and dad you wanted to take the CPT program, what was their reaction? Nothing special. They just thought, "Well, she wants to do it." They did not object at all.

00:26:14.880 - 00:26:30.520

How far was the airport from the school? Oh, gosh, about five miles. Kelly: Describe your ground school courses in the CPT. Were they taught by college professors there?

00:26:30.520 - 00:26:52.400

Morgan: Yeah, they were taught by the teachers there at the junior college. I remember the engineering drawing professor, he taught one of the classes. I think we had some of them in the hangar out at the airport, too. I don't remember too much about the ground school, I just remember the flight.

00:26:53.860 - 00:27:11.880

Tell me about the first time you went out to the airport. Was that the first time that you had been close to an airplane? No, I had been out there before. Well, it was the first time I guess I really had been close to one, but I had been out

00:27:11.860 - 00:27:20.860

there, you know, watching the planes at different times. And then did they assign you an instructor? Yes. Okay.

00:27:22.160 - 00:27:33.660

Describe your first flight. What was it in? In a Piper Cub. And I don't even really remember my first flight.

00:27:34.500 - 00:27:42.200

Do you recall your solo? I recall my solo. Tell us about that. I recall because my family was out there watching me solo.

00:27:44.520 - 00:27:57.960

What members of your family? I think my sister and my mother and my father, I think, because it was probably on a Saturday when he was home and they were out there watching me. What kind of landing did you make?

00:27:58.740 - 00:28:14.820

I think I made a pretty good landing. Were you ever able to take any of your family up for a ride? I took my father up for my first passenger after I got my license. He was rather uneasy.

00:28:16.040 - 00:28:25.360

When I pulled the throttle back to come in for a landing, he ran away. I was like, "Don't do that. Don't try any tricks with me." I said, "Well, I have to if we want to get down."

00:28:25.360 - 00:28:39.360

So he said, "Okay." He's the only one that went up with me. Do you remember any unusual happenings while you were learning to fly? No, nothing really unusual.

00:28:39.920 - 00:28:59.240

It was all sort of routine. You kept flying. When did you first hear about a training program for the WASP? I was down in Michigan then and I got a letter in the mail about it from Jacqueline Cochran

00:28:59.240 - 00:29:16.120

telling about the program. Then shortly after that, I think, was when Life magazine came out with the pictures on the cover. I thought, "Oh, that's what I really want to do."

00:29:18.220 - 00:29:33.160

I don't know. Let's see, I must have been in the second year down there at Michigan, because then I didn't hear about it for a while and then I got a response, but I had told my parents I'd finished school before I went into it.

00:29:35.040 - 00:29:47.520

I went to summer school two summers to get finished. What was your degree in from Michigan? In design. In design.

00:29:48.520 - 00:30:08.140

What was that graduation like? I didn't go through graduation because I finished in the summertime so I could go on At that point, were any of your siblings interested in flying? No.

00:30:09.360 - 00:30:19.540

Okay. When you finished school, then what did you do next? What did you do during that summer? Did you graduate at the end of summer?

00:30:19.580 - 00:30:48.940

I graduated at the end of summer, and then I got a job with two pilots that had been the Flying Tigers. They had come back. Well, I had a job at Willow Run because they were making the B-24 bombers there in graphic design. Then these two pilots came back and started a business in Ann Arbor. The art teacher wanted to know if I wanted to work that summer, just

00:30:48.980 - 00:31:02.320

those couple months. So I worked with them and we were doing graphic design for Willow run the B-24s until I went in. So you were living over in Ann Arbor? Uh-huh.

00:31:02.620 - 00:31:12.500

Okay. And do you recall having to take a physical? I recall because I had to go to Detroit Selfridge Field for that. What was that like?

00:31:13.800 - 00:31:36.380

I met, remember Jo Marsh? She was there at the same time and taking the physical. but she was going in right away. I know I was scared to death. I remember I was trying to figure out how I got over to Selfridge Field too because, well I did have a car part

00:31:36.420 - 00:31:51.260

of the time down in Ann Arbor. Students couldn't have cars when I went there, but you could have one, get a permit to have one for a certain period of time, so I did have a car to go over there. Then did you have to have an interview?

00:31:53.720 - 00:32:09.160

I don't remember an interview. Or take a test? I don't remember. Then what was the next step as far as going into the training program?

00:32:09.940 - 00:32:19.740

Did you get a letter or a phone call? I got a letter. I know I haven't still got some of the letters yet. I took the train to Sweetwater.

00:32:22.300 - 00:32:39.220

Now what did your mom and dad think when you told them what you were about to do? Well, it was just another step in my growing up, I guess. They accepted it. My brother was in the Navy at that time, and he was in the Pacific.

00:32:40.120 - 00:33:04.000

My older sister had gone into the Red Cross, and she was in Texas with the Red Cross. They were very patriotic people and anything for the war effort, why not? They were willing to let us all go. When you went out on the train to Sweetwater, were there other girls going into the WASP

00:33:04.080 - 00:33:17.180

that you met? No, there wasn't, not until I got there. I remember the train riding because the trains were so crowded and we took turns standing up and sitting down on the train going out there.

00:33:18.570 - 00:33:40.800

What was it mostly crowded with? Servicemen going to different bases and stations. Once you got to Sweetwater, describe what happened next. I remember going to the Bluebonnet Hotel and spending the night there.

00:33:42.420 - 00:34:00.820

I didn't really meet anybody that day or that night until we got on the bus or the cattle wagon, what did they call it, to go out to the field. When you entered this program, what were your expectations? What do you think the program was for?

00:34:03.040 - 00:34:20.280

Mostly ferrying planes, I think, because that was about all we had heard about up until that time was, you know, ferrying from factories to bases and flying around the country doing that. Let me go back and ask you, when you were learning to fly or after you started flying,

00:34:20.800 - 00:34:30.380

did you fly things other than the Piper Cub? No. That was it? I think I flew a Taylorcraft once, but that was—

00:34:31.260 - 00:34:45.900

Okay. got out to Avenger Field, what happened then? That's where I met you. We were all assigned to that one room, the six of us.

00:34:46.220 - 00:35:08.460

Describe the barracks that you lived in. Well, when I walked in, I thought, "This is going to be a little bit different." But having lived with different people in college, I was used to it, too. For someone who doesn't know, what was the room like where you lived for seven months?

00:35:09.700 - 00:35:31.860

Well, there were three cots along one wall and three cots along another wall and a door that went to the latrine and a room on the other side that had the same number and we all used the same latrine. our cot said, just a metal cot I think it was, with a wardrobe to put our belongings

00:35:32.060 - 00:35:56.780

in. And it had to be kept very neat, especially right before inspections. And how long did this training program last? What was it, from the first of November until the middle of May. When you were given the rules and regulations, what were some of those rules?

00:35:58.740 - 00:36:10.180

What was your schedule going to be? I do not remember too much about that. What kind of training? Were you just going to fly cubs?

00:36:10.460 - 00:36:28.280

What were you going to fly? We started out in the primary trainer, the PT-19, which was an open cockpit, single-engine plane. I liked that one.

00:36:28.580 - 00:36:38.120

It seemed like you could do anything with it. In fact, when I got in it the first time, I thought, "Oh, now this is really fine," you know, after a piper got in line. It was a thrill to be in that.

00:36:38.900 - 00:37:00.240

We didn't keep those too long until we got the Stearman. I liked the Stearman, too, but I remember people seemed to be wary of ground looping it, so I was really careful when I came in for a landing and that, and watching it. What would a day's schedule be like?

00:37:01.160 - 00:37:20.000

I remember we got up early in the morning and we went to breakfast, and they usually had green beans for breakfast. I've never liked green beans since then. But we went to breakfast and then went to either ground school, half of the group went

00:37:20.000 - 00:37:39.640

to ground school and half of the group went to flight training in the morning and then we would alternate in the afternoon. And then sometimes we—well, when we were in primary, we went out to an auxiliary field and flew from there most of the time.

00:37:39.800 - 00:38:02.040

So we would get on this cattle wagon and go out to the ground school. What were you told—how could you wash out? What would cause someone to wash out and be sent home? That's it, there were regulations on not doing certain things.

00:38:06.540 - 00:38:31.380

One thing, if you didn't pass the inspections, a certain number of demerits you received, but I don't remember how many demerits it was really. Other than that, it would be if you didn't pass the ground school program test or didn't pass the flying check.

00:38:33.000 - 00:38:50.540

Jane, could you tell me when you came up to Avenger Field in that cattle wagon and looked out and saw all those different airplanes, how did that make you feel? Just wanted to get in them and take off. Learn how to use them and find them.

00:38:52.540 - 00:39:11.760

While you were there, did you also have exercise classes? Oh yes, we had exercise classes. I remember that. Because I never could do push-ups and I don't know how I got through the exercise classes. Or chin-ups, I guess it was. I finally got to do a push-up.

00:39:11.940 - 00:39:31.660

But in fact my niece was here from New York not too long ago and she had seen a picture of somebody in a paper there in New York and she was asking about it so I showed her my book and she said, "Oh you were so slim and trim then." I said, "That's because we had to do exercises all the time."

00:39:31.780 - 00:39:59.720

Right. Describe what ground school was all about. Mostly I think about navigation, well some meteorology classes and navigation. I don't know if there was some mechanics, I think there was.

00:40:00.200 - 00:40:07.200

Physics? Yeah, physics. Math? Well, that was included with the navigation training.

00:40:09.520 - 00:40:21.580

How about Morse code? Oh, yes, Morse code. Dot dash and dash dot. That's what I remember about Morse code. And why was Morse code important?

00:40:22.740 - 00:40:39.520

Well, at that time, for navigation, for flying, the beam, the one side of the beam was dot dash and the other was dash dot. And so you had to—well, and there wasn't the radio communication at that time either, I don't think.

00:40:40.200 - 00:40:54.260

The other Morse code would be your Mayday or SOS, I think. But as far as sending regular messages, I don't think we did too much of that. Okay, we're going to change film. Okay.

00:40:54.480 - 00:41:04.620

Hey, moving right along. Oh, I was trying to remember some of this stuff. Well, yeah, it's bringing out things you haven't thought about in years and years. I know it.

00:41:05.620 - 00:41:19.960

And there's certain times when you see some of the things that were in her leg when I was at junior college and I went over and stayed with her until she died. I would sleep over there at night with her. I just have someone there with her.

00:41:22.040 - 00:41:35.600

They were special people. Okay, let's... Let me zoom out and get a nice shot of the little beanie. Yeah.

00:41:36.540 - 00:41:44.000

Put that in there with it. [laughter] No problem. Yeah, this one just looks so...

00:41:44.880 - 00:41:54.020

the way I feel sometimes. [laughter] I'm rolling. Oh, I'm sorry.

00:41:54.020 - 00:41:59.780

Oh, you are? I've got a beanie baby in the shot. Oh, okay, good. Okay, we're going to go back to primary training.

00:42:00.000 - 00:42:11.580

At Avenger Field, did they only have primary training? What did they have there? No, they had primary and basic and advanced training. It was all at the same field.

00:42:12.180 - 00:42:27.680

But our primary, I think we went mostly to the auxiliary field and flew. But then occasionally at Avenger. Let me get back to the barracks where you lived and describe the barracks themselves. Were they a two-story building?

00:42:28.720 - 00:42:50.540

No, it was a one-story building. I don't know how many rooms were in one long building, probably maybe eight rooms all together. And with a little porch or an overhang in the front and a courtyard in between. It was sort of a U-shaped arrangement, I think, that had a little courtyard in between.

00:42:52.220 - 00:43:09.460

Can you describe your baymates? Oh, my bay mates. Yes, I had some very nice bay mates, except one that didn't stay with us too long. And then I think, I don't remember if someone else came and replaced one, so there was usually

00:43:09.500 - 00:43:36.880

only just the five of us for the rest of the time. I think after maybe the first six weeks, there were five of us in the room at that time. It was Dorothy Allen, who had had previous flight training, also was one of the other WASPs in training in another class, so she spent quite a bit of time out of the room

00:43:37.000 - 00:43:54.380

with the other friend of hers. So there were just really the four of us, and we got along very well, I think, for four people living in one little room together for seven months. I don't think we had really any arguments or anything.

00:43:57.700 - 00:44:32.000

Describe the uniforms or clothing that you wore for different things. Well, we wore what we called zoot suits, and they were just a one-piece coverall that had been made for male enlistees, and we were given that to wear most of the time. And then on Saturdays when we'd have a review or something like that, why we wouldn't wear khaki pants

00:44:32.040 - 00:44:44.620

and a white shirt. But other than that, that was our uniform. We lived in our zoot-zoos, I think. With the patch across our knee telling us with our instructions when we were flying what we were going to do.

00:44:46.220 - 00:45:05.700

And as far as covering for the hair, what did you wear? Oh, we wore a white turban. I think we wore that when we were in primary because we were flying open cockpit planes. We had helmets then, too, when we were flying.

00:45:07.440 - 00:45:26.060

I don't know why we wore the turbans. I guess we felt we would look more uniform with our hair the same in our zoot suits. Because when we wore just our white shirt and khaki pants, we wore a little cap, I think like a baseball cap.

00:45:29.060 - 00:45:44.720

When the one girl washed out in your bay, how did that make you feel? Do you know why she washed out? Not really. I heard stories, but I never really inquired to find out just exactly why she washed out.

00:45:44.800 - 00:46:00.940

It wasn't her problem with flying. I think it was a disciplinary problem that she had with not following the rules. Do you recall your first instructor? Yes, I do.

00:46:03.860 - 00:46:13.100

I can't recall his name right now, though. Reinhardt, yeah, Jack Reinhardt. Yeah, that's right. Do you remember your first solo at Avenger?

00:46:15.400 - 00:46:30.460

No, I don't remember that. Okay. Do you remember anything else about the mess hall, the meals, beside the green beans? Well, the food was pretty good, except when we got green beans for breakfast, that did

00:46:30.540 - 00:46:46.520

it. But the meals, I guess they were good meals because we all were fairly well slimmed down and in good condition when we finished there after seven months. I think Sundays were probably special, except when we had to fly.

00:46:46.600 - 00:47:03.820

Sometimes we even flew on Sundays that night. Do you recall when you would go to different areas, to ground school or to the flight line or different things, how did you get there? Did you just each go on your own?

00:47:04.020 - 00:47:18.720

What happened? I think it would have been different times. There was usually a certain number that went together at a certain time. Do you recall having to march?

00:47:19.380 - 00:47:34.500

I recall marching. Do you recall what you did as you marched? Well, we usually sang some silly song until we'd keep the step to get a rhythm. Do you recall any of those songs?

00:47:34.500 - 00:47:49.140

Oh, I recall a few of them, the Zoot Suits and Parachutes. There's some others that I can't remember right now, but if I started, I would know of the names that we have. Okay.

00:47:50.640 - 00:48:12.980

When you finished primary, did you have some time off? And what did you do? I don't know if it was after primary that, I think we had maybe a day or two, not too many days, maybe the weekend off or something like that.

00:48:12.980 - 00:48:33.840

Because I remember I went with Jo Baker to some other little Texas town that she had a friend at. I remember spending a weekend somewhere, but I don't remember where it was even. At Avenger Field, who were your instructors?

00:48:34.080 - 00:48:48.720

Were they Army personnel or who were they? They were civilian flight instructors. I think the Czech pilots, some of them were Army personnel, but the instructors themselves were civilians.

00:48:51.100 - 00:49:13.160

And on these Czech rides, how did those affect you when you would have a Czech ride? I just remember the one Czech ride. No, I remember two Czech rides. In fact, the instructor would give us check rides periodically too.

00:49:14.540 - 00:49:32.020

I mean, we would solo certainly at the time and then get check rides. But I remember the one check ride, doing a spin in an AT-6 and didn't want to come out of the spin and he kept saying, "Give me instructions," and then he took over and couldn't get it out of the spin either.

00:49:32.240 - 00:49:47.560

But he said, "One more time around and we do gone out of here." But that's the only one I really remember. I think I remember one in instruments too, though. Describe what the instrument training consisted of.

00:49:49.780 - 00:50:22.720

Well, the instrument training, I think we first went into a link trainer, which was a simulator of the instruments in the BT-13, which was the plane we flew instruments in. And it had a hood over the top so that you had no visual orientation of where you were going, your position. And they would give you a certain path to follow and sometimes would

00:50:24.360 - 00:50:46.780

do something to the leg trainer to get you disoriented, to see if you really relied on on your instruments instead of your feelings. Then the link trainer also, you would follow certain navigational patterns. So when you finished your primary training, then you went into what?

00:50:47.820 - 00:51:10.680

Then we went into the AT-6, I think, which was the advanced trainer. I think our class was the first one that did that. we went into the AT-6 and flew that in our cross-country. No, we wouldn't. I don't remember if we went on some cross-countries in that before we had our instrument training

00:51:10.730 - 00:51:25.900

or not, or if we had some instrument training and then went back to the AT-6. I think that was the way it was, because I know we had the instrument training before we went on and along across countries. But we learned to fly the AT-6 and do the maneuvers in it

00:51:27.500 - 00:51:39.600

after primary. As far as night flying, what do you recall about night flying? I enjoyed night flying. I'd come down and have all the lights off on the runway.

00:51:40.980 - 00:52:02.760

Or else just have some lights on the runway. In fact, sometimes I think they had no lights there, but I enjoyed the night fine. Could you describe the auxiliary fields that you flew out of? Oh, I said I never wanted to see Texas again after being on the auxiliary fields.

00:52:04.780 - 00:52:21.300

It was a barren wasteland with nothing in sight except a little shed that we went to occasionally. An outhouse. I think it had an outhouse and that was it.

00:52:21.960 - 00:52:43.320

The truck would take us out there and the cattle wagon would take us out there and we spent the day in the dust. When you finished your AT-6 training and then went into instruments, do you recall any of your instructors for those phases?

00:52:47.000 - 00:53:10.340

I don't recall who I had for instrument training. I remember the '86, George Haight being the instructor for that. But, Aaron McColl gave us the instruction. How many hours did you have to have in primary before you could move on to the next phase?

00:53:13.180 - 00:53:28.940

Seventy. Seventy? [Laughter] Do you recall anything outstanding that happened besides your spin in the AT-6 that was unusual

00:53:29.480 - 00:53:55.160

either in any phase of training? I remember the cross-country flight in the AT-6 when we went to, I think, Mobile, Alabama and Georgia, because it was in the spring and there was flooded land all over down there. And the weather was questionable on the one leg of the

00:53:55.260 - 00:54:16.320

flight, and the clouds were coming down lower and lower, and I remember flying in the treetops just at the minimum height, and it was all flooded land below to get to the one destination. And I remember that quite a few of the women on that flight had gone to

00:54:16.180 - 00:54:36.820

alternate fields because of the weather, but I got through to where I was supposed to be. And there were several of us that did, but people ended up in quite a few different places on that flight. But that was really the only problem or any time that I was a little bit nervous about

00:54:37.520 - 00:54:52.620

where I was to be. Was there ever a flight that you made beside that AT-6 where you were really frightened? No, that was the only one really. While you were in training during that seven months,

00:54:52.740 - 00:55:06.540

classes would graduate, upper classes. What would a graduation be like? What would you have to do? Well, the whole unit or the whole group of WASB,

00:55:06.570 - 00:55:26.640

each class had their own parade to the graduation, a formation and marched to the graduation, marched around the wishing well and onto wherever the graduation was held. I don't even remember where the graduation was held.

00:55:26.740 - 00:55:49.580

It was in a closed building, I think, but I don't remember where it was. I remember the formations on the field and the time that General Arnold and Chaplin Cockham would come and we'd all stand in formation and greet them. You mentioned wishing well. Describe the wishing well and what was it used for?

00:55:50.500 - 00:56:18.580

Well, the wishing well was sort of, I just remember marching around it and people would throw pennies in it and make a wish for a good fight or to pass the Czech fight. It you marched around the Wishing Well. Do you recall when you first entered training having to take an oath of office?

00:56:20.220 - 00:56:40.460

No, I don't recall that. I probably, you mean a Pledge of Allegiance? It was an oath that the other, that the male cadets also, anybody that went into the service, had to take. What were your expectations as far as becoming military?

00:56:45.480 - 00:57:12.940

Well, when I went into training, I really didn't have any expectations of becoming military. Later on, after graduation, I thought that we would, because it was mentioned several times that the vote was going to come up before Congress to make us part of the military. I was hopeful that they would, but when I went in, I really had no expectations in particular

00:57:13.100 - 00:57:28.800

about it. Toward the end of your advanced training, shortly before you graduated, tell us about one particular accident that happened. Well, it was a mid-air collision, I remember that.

00:57:29.940 - 00:57:47.400

In fact, we had been, I think, on a cross-country flight at the time. And when we got back to the field, we had heard that there was an air collision, which had involved one of our classmates. And that was quite traumatic because she was a very close friend, too.

00:57:47.680 - 00:58:05.260

And at the time, when something like that happened, someone had to go with the body to take the body home. And there was questions about who would do it. And I remember I had volunteered to do it,

00:58:05.260 - 00:58:16.920

or I was asked to do it. But then one of the other girls in the class did go with her, with her body. But that was a very traumatic experience.

00:58:20.060 - 00:58:42.220

Tell me about your graduation. By that time, what kind of uniforms were you wearing? I think for our graduation we got our regular San Diego blue uniforms with the beret and the jacket and skirt.

00:58:44.200 - 00:58:54.140

We wore that for the graduation, but then we had the slacks and the—what kind of jacket What was that called? Battle jacket? Battle jacket, yeah.

00:58:54.460 - 00:59:15.380

And a little, like a baseball cap. I still like wearing little baseball caps. Very nice person. And I remember I had a picture of her laying there on the bench outside the hangar, or

00:59:15.460 - 00:59:29.660

not the hangar, the ready room. And what was this girl's name? Mary Halston. She lived in the east somewhere.

00:59:29.860 - 00:59:55.860

Now, that said, I don't even—sad to say I don't remember anymore where she lived, but I remember that she had been in our group, even though we weren't in the same barracks together while she had sort of taken a liking to those of us in our room and we did things together like went to lunch together and sometimes we would go into town together or something

00:59:56.060 - 01:00:12.920

like that. We didn't get into town too often. Do you recall your graduation? I recall my graduation because Jacqueline Cochran presented my wings and said, "How How did you get into this?"

01:00:12.920 - 01:00:25.120

Because of my height. That's what I remember about my graduation. And then my parents did come for my graduation too. They came down, took the train down and were there for my graduation.

01:00:26.860 - 01:00:45.660

But then I didn't come back home with them. They took the train back home and I got a flight from the field there to Romulus with a pilot from Dearborn, Michigan that was going back home. Had you requested the ferry command?

01:00:48.740 - 01:01:09.280

No, I don't believe I did. I don't know if we had any options when we graduated. I just remember getting the orders and I was being sent to Freeman Field in Seymour, Indiana. Were there other members of your class who were sent to that same air base?

01:01:09.540 - 01:01:25.200

No, I was the only one that was sent there. When I got there, there were two others from a previous class that were there, and they had been there just a couple of months. Did you have some time off between the time you graduated and time to report?

01:01:26.100 - 01:01:41.800

I think maybe ten days. I came home to Grand Rapids and then I took the train to Seymour, Indiana. Do you remember when you came home to Grand Rapids, did you wear your uniform while you were home?

01:01:42.980 - 01:02:08.040

Yes, part of the time because the Grand Rapids Press had gotten a notice, I guess, from Public Relations and I requested an interview. There was another girl, Faye Wolf, from Grand Rapids who was in our class. They had both of us come down and interviewed us in uniform and did an article about us.

01:02:08.630 - 01:02:19.240

Do you remember how it made you feel? Yes, I was very proud. Because then some artist in town wanted to know if I would pose for a portrait, but I didn't.

01:02:20.500 - 01:02:34.420

How did your mom and dad feel? They were proud, too. As I say, they were proud of education and serving our country and everything, because my brother was still in the South Pacific at that time.

01:02:35.600 - 01:03:00.680

Were you ever able to be home at the same time that your brother was home, so you were both in uniform? No, I don't believe so, because I think I was probably in Seymour when he came home I just remember when he did come home, because he was on a destroyer and the destroyer was

01:03:01.500 - 01:03:15.300

hit and he was injured. I do not remember if that is when he got out or just when he did get out. Did your brother ever fly with you? No, he never did.

01:03:16.840 - 01:03:40.820

When you reported to Seymour, to whom did you report? I reported to the commander of the base there, and he didn't know what to do with me. I said, "The other two girls lived in an apartment in town." He said, "Well, you can live in the nurses' quarters if you want."

01:03:40.820 - 01:04:01.620

So I ended up living in the nurses' quarters when I was there. And what was your assignment? I was assigned to the engineering hangar for test flights after engine maintenance or reports of any problems with the plane.

01:04:02.500 - 01:04:13.900

I was in Advanced Twin Engine School, but first I had to be checked out in the twin-engine plane. Do you recall who checked you out? I recall who checked me out.

01:04:14.500 - 01:04:35.340

Tell us about that. I was assigned to one checkout pilot and another one said, "Let me do it." And that's who I've been with for the last fifty-seven years. I didn't care about him at all.

01:04:36.520 - 01:04:50.060

He was very—kept testing me on everything and just kept going over and over, "Are you sure you're doing this right?" Very particular about everything. What kind of airplane?

01:04:50.480 - 01:05:05.600

What kind of twin engine? It was an AT-10, an advanced twin engine trainer. What was that air base mainly for? That's all it was for until after I was there about two months, they had helicopters come

01:05:05.640 - 01:05:21.860

in there and they had helicopter training. When you met this pilot that checked you out, how long did it take before you started dating this pilot? Maybe about four weeks.

01:05:24.200 - 01:05:42.540

What was it about him? What qualities did he possess that attracted you to him and finally you fell in love with him? I don't know, we just ate lunch together and we really didn't go out together that

01:05:42.620 - 01:05:56.120

much. But then, I mean, until—well, there was another one. There was another one that wanted to take me out and he didn't approve of this other fellow taking me out, so then he started asking me to go out.

01:05:58.380 - 01:06:14.440

I don't know just what it was. It was sort of a whirlwind romance. Where did you go on dates? What were the social activities?

01:06:14.480 - 01:06:28.680

Well, there were a whole group of them that went out to what they called the Country Club. There was a golf course there, but it was just a barn. We did go out and play golf a couple times. But then a bunch of people would get out there together.

01:06:29.980 - 01:06:45.820

He had been there at the field for a couple of years, and so there were a group of fellows and some of the girls from town that would go out there and have dinner, and they had dancing and that. That is about all we did, really.

01:06:50.140 - 01:07:02.960

Your job at that air base was as an engineering test pilot. What was his job? He was a check pilot for the students also. Were these advanced students?

01:07:03.200 - 01:07:23.700

Yes. Were you able to meet his parents before you married? Yes, we took a cross-country flight to Wisconsin and met his mother. His father had died when he was four years old, but his mother and family were there.

01:07:23.860 - 01:07:34.400

We lived on a farm in Wisconsin. And then we also came up to Grand Rapids for cross-country flight. He had extended cross-countries at that time,

01:07:34.520 - 01:07:47.960

so many that you had to take each month. So that was our extended cross-country training. - At some time while you were at Romulus, you-- - I was never at Romulus.

01:07:48.520 - 01:07:58.320

This was at Seymour, Indiana. - At Seymour. You were notified about the WASP being disbanded. Do you remember how that made you feel?

01:07:59.560 - 01:08:19.760

Well, right at that point I was to be transferred to Panama City, Florida. It was just about the same day that I had heard that the WASP were going to be disbanded. By that time I was married, too. We met in June and we were married in August.

01:08:21.720 - 01:08:41.600

Tell us about that wedding. Well, that wedding my parents were rather upset because I had just gotten down there and they did not know I was sure about what I was doing and everything. But we just decided to get married and it was at the air base in the chapel.

01:08:43.420 - 01:08:53.020

My parents did come down for the wedding, and my sister was my bridesmaid and his brother was the bridesgroom. Were you married in your uniforms? No.

01:08:53.440 - 01:09:10.600

Well, he was, but I had one day to get a wedding dress, so I went to Indianapolis, drove to Indianapolis and bought a wedding dress. It was more or less a—it was sort of a formal, but yet it wasn't really a formal—it was a pretty good wedding dress.

01:09:13.300 - 01:09:27.360

So I had a wedding dress on. Did your commanding officer give you some time off for a honeymoon? We had saved up time, so we did take an extended cross-country tour for our honeymoon and flew to New York.

01:09:28.720 - 01:09:42.960

We flew over Niagara Falls and onto Mitchell Field, New York. All of them were in Mitchell Field. We got weathered in for one day and then flew back to Seymour. When you went on this flight, who was the pilot?

01:09:44.260 - 01:10:07.120

We took turns. He flew part of the time and I did. When you got back to Seymour, then you kept flying and eventually you decided what? Well, as I say, this was in August—no, it was October that I heard that the WASP was

01:10:07.060 - 01:10:23.960

going to be disbanded. And at the same time got the order to go to Panama City and I thought I'll just get down there and then have to get out. So that's when I resigned. Do you recall what the orders said, what you would be doing in Panama City if you had accepted that?

01:10:23.960 - 01:10:45.080

It would be towed to Argonne. Okay. And rather than go, you decided to go ahead and take early? Yeah, because this was October and they were going to be disbanded in December. What did you have to do in order to be discharged?

01:10:47.120 - 01:11:04.680

Did you have to write Ms. Cochran? I had to notify, I think, the headquarters at Maxwell. That was the head of the training command there. In fact, some of the WASP headquarters were there at the time, too.

01:11:10.040 - 01:11:26.840

And I had to turn in all my equipment. Kelly: And once you did that, then where did you live? Did you have to leave the nurses' quarters? Mildred: Well, we were living at a quarters on the airbase then at that time.

01:11:27.420 - 01:11:46.400

So he had officer's quarters that you lived in? Well, no, we were married in August, and this was October. So there was housing on the base that we lived in. So you actually stayed in for two months after you married and then resigned.

01:11:48.460 - 01:12:00.660

Then how long was he stationed there? Well, they closed the base in December, so everybody left. And where did you and your husband go? Dodge City, Kansas.

01:12:02.560 - 01:12:19.000

How did you get to Dodge City? We drove thirty-five miles an hour, and about ten cents a round of retreads in the car. What was his assignment at Dodge City? B-25 training.

01:12:20.840 - 01:12:46.740

And where did you live? in one room in the back of a house in town. And we were there through that, and then he was sent to San Antonio, Texas, to Randolph Field. And then from there, that was about two months there, and then to Douglas, Arizona for B-26s.

01:12:53.340 - 01:13:07.820

I know we lived in seven different places in that one year. But then he was sent to Japan. After his B-26 training, he was sent to Japan for the occupation, because the war had ended then.

01:13:08.860 - 01:13:21.160

Where did you go? came back to Grand Rapids and stayed with my folks while he was in Japan. I was all ready to go to Japan. I had shots and everything, but he had no previous overseas duty.

01:13:22.680 - 01:13:41.640

So I would just get at the top of the list to go and then other previous personnel who had overseas duty would come. So I would go back down to the bottom of the list, so I never got to Japan. Did you work while you were home waiting? I did part-time

01:13:43.040 - 01:13:59.660

And I kept applying to when I came back then but I finally All quit doing that because I I Wasn't it wasn't a flying job that I had and I thought you know just to rent a plane and fly around It was too expensive

01:14:02.620 - 01:14:19.080

Were you flying at the same airport where you had learned to fly yes What did you do when he came back to the States? Did you meet him somewhere? I met him in Chicago.

01:14:20.220 - 01:14:42.500

I drove over to Chicago and met him. And then where was he assigned? I don't know, we were at Chinook Field. He was assigned to Indianapolis.

01:14:47.300 - 01:14:59.360

I don't remember if that was before. I think when he came back, though, that's when he got out and joined the Reserves, after he came back from Japan. Yeah, so then he got a job in Grand Rapids.

01:15:01.380 - 01:15:14.920

So then he was in the reserves and you moved back to Grand Rapids. Then what happened next? He's just stayed here ever since. And eventually?

01:15:15.280 - 01:15:33.720

Well, during the Korean War he was recalled, so we lived in Rapid City, South Dakota for two years during the Korean War. Where was your first child born? In Champaign, Illinois.

01:15:35.380 - 01:15:47.920

He was stationed at Chinook Field then. That was when he got back from Japan? No, that was before. So when he was in Japan, you had a baby to look after.

01:15:49.960 - 01:16:16.020

And then where was your next child? The others were all born in Grand Rapids. As those children were growing up, Jane, what role did you play as far as their education or their activities? What did you do? I took them back and forth to school. I was active in their school activities, too.

01:16:17.960 - 01:16:43.180

At that time, though, the children didn't have as many activities as they do now. I mean, the sports, the girls had no sport activities. The boys had football and basketball and that. My son did play football and scouts, but the girls, there really weren't that many activities

01:16:43.180 - 01:17:15.980

that they were involved in other than campfire drills and school activities. As your children were growing up, were they able to visit with their grandparents? The three oldest ones were, but the two youngest. My father died when the twins were just about a year old, and then my mother died when they

01:17:16.000 - 01:17:29.700

were six years old. They had some connections with the grandparents. The other three were close to them. Tell me about having twins.

01:17:32.200 - 01:17:39.380

That was an experience. I found out I was going to have twins. I came home and cried all day. What am I going to do with two?"

01:17:40.120 - 01:18:01.620

It was a wonderful experience because you got to realize how people have different personalities. They were very different in looks and in personality from the time they were born, but yet they were close and still are very close to each other. But I said, "What's the other three?"

01:18:01.620 - 01:18:17.620

And then those two, for a year I didn't think I got out of the kitchen. I was feeding one and then the other. It was fun having them because, as they say, just to watch the difference in the two of them.

01:18:20.420 - 01:18:53.600

Tell us about your children, starting with the oldest. Well, the oldest was born in Champaign, Illinois, and then she, of course, she remembers living at the Air Basin in South Dakota also. She was always a very neat, particular little girl and good in school. She's now an occupational therapist and works with autistic children.

01:18:55.900 - 01:19:17.520

The son, he was just a little over a year. Oh, he was about two years old when we moved to South Dakota. He was always a problem, still is. We had trouble keeping him in bed.

01:19:18.500 - 01:19:44.140

He'd get up in the middle of the night. We lived at the air base, and he'd get up in the middle of the night and go out roaming. we had to put locks on the doors and everything else to keep track of. He lives here in town now. He lived in Florida for several years. He lives here in town and is working at a

01:19:44.140 - 01:20:05.600

cheese factory. He's always liked working with foods. He had a restaurant at one time and different things like that. He works at this cheese factory now and the supervisor over - well I didn't realize it was as big as it was, but they make the most mozzarella cheese in the - I mean they're the only cheese factory that makes mozzarella cheese for the

01:20:05.640 - 01:20:31.800

whole country, and some European countries too. Then the next daughter, she was just a baby when I went to South Dakota. That trip to South Dakota on the airplane, I never will forget that either because I had the three of them and I had to transfer in Chicago. The boy got away from me in the airport in Chicago. When a little child gets away from

01:20:31.820 - 01:20:54.980

you and doesn't want to come back, how fast they can go. Here I am trying to get the three of them together there at the airport. Then we were delayed and then we went to Minneapolis were delayed there. I left at Grand Rapids, I think about seven in the morning and got to Rapid City, South Dakota about three o'clock in the morning the next day. And by that time

01:20:55.040 - 01:21:19.480

I was a wreck. But then the next girl, she's an occupational therapist also and works with with the Grand Rapids schools at the, what do they call it, PPI program. And it's from infants to--

01:21:19.480 - 01:21:34.960

they do evaluations from the time an infant is born if there's some problem, and work with them in motor abilities and speech and different things like that, until they're in the regular classroom in school.

01:21:36.160 - 01:21:54.400

And then the twins were born. And the one is an electromyogram therapist in Ann Arbor. She worked for University Hospital for quite a few years. And now she works for a private company

01:21:54.520 - 01:22:06.440

that she goes around different parts of the country doing tests. Well, it's mostly for dental conventions and postal conventions and that.

01:22:06.880 - 01:22:22.840

They'd send us equipment and do this testing of employees and different companies too. And then when they had the T.W. or the-- oh, in Tennessee. Why do they mean the atom bomb?

01:22:23.960 - 01:22:33.880

They went back down there and did testing of people that had worked on it at that time. And the other girls here in town. She just graduated from college.

01:22:34.740 - 01:22:50.000

They both went to college. I worked at the college here in Grand Rapids and they both went for two years. The one went for three years. The one that went for three years got a good job and decided to quit school.

01:22:51.660 - 01:23:05.680

So she quit and now since she's been married, she's decided she wanted to go back to school so she just graduated. It took her nine years to finish the one year, but she got finished. We're rolling out.

01:23:06.540 - 01:23:18.280

I'm going to get one more take. I can relate to that daughter. Do you know when I finished? When you were working at the college, what did you do?

01:23:18.880 - 01:23:35.240

I had quite a few different jobs there. I had been working with blind children for five years in the public schools, And I decided that it was the same children for those five years. Some of them were preschool when I started in this program.

01:23:35.660 - 01:23:50.300

And I just wanted to do something different. And a friend of mine was a chemistry professor at the college here in town. And he said they were starting an environmental studies program. They were going to set up an environmental studies major.

01:23:50.840 - 01:24:10.480

It was a Catholic college, and the sister that was in charge of this had written a grant to the Kellogg Foundation for financial assistance. The grant was approved, and so she needed someone to work with her on setting up this environmental studies program.

01:24:11.440 - 01:24:49.840

So I worked with her for three years and then the grant was extended another two years. So the environmental studies major was set up and it was different jobs that I did with her reports and contacting other colleges and working with the different departments in the college itself, the biology department and the social studies and political science

01:24:49.840 - 01:25:15.600

and that, to work with getting this program set up. Well, then when that grant ended, the Kellogg Foundation gave us another grant to start a community study on the East Town community, which is close to where the college is. It was an area that had been a very prosperous area and it was becoming run down, so we started

01:25:15.680 - 01:25:37.540

this community studies there and set up a neighborhood program. So that went on for several years, or two years, and then the grant ran out. And the director of human relations wanted to know if I wanted to come over there and work, so I went and worked in human relations.

01:25:39.420 - 01:26:02.320

And I worked there for quite a number of years. And there was—well, the one director that I worked with, we had a little problem. At that time, this chemistry professor was the head of the Natural Science Division, so he said, "Why don't you come on over and work in our building again?"

01:26:02.760 - 01:26:16.820

He said, "We need somebody here to keep track of things over here." The professor that had been there had Parkinson's, and he was in charge of all the supplies and everything. They were just sort of keeping him on.

01:26:18.720 - 01:26:29.260

So I went back and worked over there. They called me curator of the natural science division. So I worked there until I retired. And I did a little bit of everything there.

01:26:30.480 - 01:26:42.180

Let me go back and ask you about the blind children you worked with. What did you do with them? It was a curriculum classroom, a school classroom. And I worked with one of the other teachers.

01:26:43.860 - 01:26:55.840

I learned Braille, to read Braille. Were you teaching them to write? With Braille reading. With Braille, right.

01:26:56.340 - 01:27:11.380

Yeah, writing and reading. How did you find their attitude? They were very—well, they started when they were quite young. In fact, there were some that were three years old that were in the classroom.

01:27:12.740 - 01:27:26.740

They can learn Braille at three years old? Yes, they were very intelligent and also had other musical abilities that just astounded me. This one little girl, she'd just hear a tune and sit down and play it at the piano and

01:27:26.740 - 01:27:44.260

never have any training, you know. In fact there were two of them that were like that, but the one more so than the other. Because there was a program in Grand Rapids where the symphony has the school children come for a concert and they take different groups at different times and so we went down

01:27:44.320 - 01:28:02.440

to the concert and she came back to the classroom and started playing some of the pieces she had heard in the symphony program. Some of them had emotional problems too though. There were a couple of them that had quite severe emotional problems and they needed

01:28:02.760 - 01:28:23.320

sort of constant supervision and things that they were doing and taking them out on the playground and all that too. But they went up to, some of them were like sixth and seventh grade level. So it was a whole range of age groups that were in the classroom.

01:28:23.610 - 01:28:31.760

But there were only ten in the room. So it took the two of us really to work with them. Right. What ever happened to your French horn?

01:28:32.700 - 01:28:45.440

I have it. It's right in there. When I retired I bought a book and I had it all cleaned and oiled and renovated and I started practicing again.

01:28:45.440 - 01:29:04.760

I thought I'm going to start playing the French horn again. So I did for a while but I thought the neighbors would appreciate it. But I still get it out once in a while. And then just the other day I heard about a program for seniors that they need musicians

01:29:04.760 - 01:29:21.380

in any level, and it doesn't matter if you haven't played for a long time or if you've never played. And so I thought it isn't the summer now but it's going to start in again in the fall down at the St. Cecilia Music Society so I thought I'm going to get my horn and start

01:29:21.480 - 01:29:29.220

playing again. MR: Good for you. KK: Well when I started playing again I found out I couldn't hit some of the notes that I used to hit.

01:29:31.240 - 01:29:46.580

You have to get your lip really trained for the mouthpiece of the horn. I used to be able to play the high notes with no problem at all, and I couldn't hit those high notes. But I played it once in a while and started practicing.

01:29:47.580 - 01:30:06.380

Did any of your children, were any of them into music? No, they all took piano lessons. None of them cared about it, so that was it. Jane, is there anything that I've left out that you would like to tell us about?

01:30:06.900 - 01:30:23.640

Can you think of anything? Well, after I retired, I decided to take up painting again. So I went to—we had community ed classes. There was a watercolor class, and I've always liked watercolors.

01:30:24.640 - 01:30:53.420

In college, in renderings that we did for display of projects like buildings or interiors or that were always done in watercolor, and I always liked watercolor. So I decided to start watercolor painting. I went to that for two or three years until the program was closed because of financial

01:30:53.420 - 01:31:23.400

problems with community ed. But the teacher started classes in her home then. So there was a group of us that, oh, for about eight years now we've gone and painted with her. And then there's six or eight of us that go out to Ada and paint at the township hall once a week. And then there was a gallery here in Grand Rapids that he had seen some

01:31:23.400 - 01:31:34.880

and wanted to know if I'd have paintings in his gallery. So I finally put some in his gallery, and he kept me busy for several years. But the gallery was just, the building was just sold,

01:31:35.000 - 01:31:45.620

and so he said to move, and he hasn't started up one in another place yet. So I've been busy painting. - I remember in training that you painted.

01:31:46.440 - 01:32:01.840

- I did the little cartoons in our-- - Fifanella? - Book, yeah. So I've been really busy with that. I know all of them that are around here, all those that I've done.

01:32:03.980 - 01:32:15.760

Have you sold some? Yeah, I sold a lot of them. And then he had a series, two years he had a series of paintings of Grand Rapids, and I did the watercolors and another girl did the oils and one did acrylics.

01:32:17.940 - 01:32:28.740

Those went over really well. Then I had cards mailed, and I sewed my cards. Do any of your children paint? No.

01:32:29.780 - 01:32:42.840

The one with I do. The oldest daughter is very artistic. She sews, and she sews beautifully. The youngest, one of the twins, she can't wait to get her children out of the house

01:32:42.900 - 01:32:55.060

so she can start painting. She did stay paying in school and she really liked it, but she hasn't kept up with it. I'm going to start in again. Tell me about your grandchildren.

01:32:57.440 - 01:33:19.720

I have a range of grandchildren because the oldest one is twenty-eight. My children all waited quite a few years before they had any. The older one just got married last year and he's twenty-eight. and then he has a brother and sister. And the brother, the two boys graduated from Michigan

01:33:19.900 - 01:33:47.780

State, and the oldest one's an engineer and the second one graduated in business and was working for two years and decided he wanted to be a teacher instead. So he's back at school now to be an English teacher. He's going to start this next semester in high school. And to go into occupational therapy, but she wants to be a teacher. So I have teachers in the

01:33:47.860 - 01:34:20.380

family. And then I have another grandson at Michigan State right now, one at Columbia University in Chicago and one at Loyola University in Chicago, and two in Florida. One is going to go back to school. She went two years, met a pilot that was in training in Sarasota, and he was from the Netherlands. So she spent the last year in the Netherlands, and they

01:34:20.440 - 01:34:41.720

just came back. He's going to start with Delta Airlines. And she says, "I'm going to go back to school, though, so I'll wait and see." She said, "It's going to start this fall." And then the other one's in high school. And let's see. Yeah, the other's in high school. She's a senior this year. Then all of a sudden I have four little boys.

01:34:43.400 - 01:35:02.180

One, eleven, eight, seven, and six. Now what is a Christmas like? Well, it's pretty hectic. My oldest daughter's been having it at her house now because she She has a big place and we all get together there.

01:35:06.220 - 01:35:16.420

We usually all get together at Christmas time. That's great. Anything else that you can tell us? No, not really.

01:35:17.430 - 01:35:24.560

I just keep busy. I play golf once a week. I play bridge a couple times a week. How good a golfer?

01:35:25.220 - 01:35:30.860

Terrible. How good a bridge player? I'm a good bridge player. I will say I'm a good bridge player.

01:35:32.210 - 01:35:52.720

I was playing too much, so I decided I had to quit. So that's when I really went to work and started painting. I get involved in things too much at one time, and then I decided I had to slow down. But golf, well, I didn't golf for two years because that one summer my head was bothering

01:35:52.800 - 01:36:07.320

me, and then last summer we were moving and I was busy moving and having sales, trying to get rid of things and everything, so I only called a couple times last summer. So this summer I decided I was going to start again. I joined the league and play on Tuesday mornings.

01:36:08.820 - 01:36:29.720

And I had some real good shots and then all of a sudden something happens and it's terrible and then I end up all right again. But I always have to end up right in the middle where I have to goof. Of all the things that you've done, Jane, what is the one thing that you're most proud

01:36:29.870 - 01:36:41.900

of? And we'll leave your children aside having those. I think being in the WASPs, that was it. For many years I never really mentioned being in the WASPs or anything.

01:36:43.120 - 01:37:06.180

I sort of left it as my past to it. I was busy with family and decided to forget it because when I thought about it I would get depressed, you know, because I loved to fly and I would love to be doing some things like that. And so I just thought, forget it and go day to day and do what you want to

01:37:06.240 - 01:37:38.900

do. So, but it's funny, within the last few years, different things have come up that have, you know, different interviews and like when, well, the Muskegon Air Show, when they decided to honor women in that way, and they called me about coming over for that. And they had a 50-year anniversary of the end of the war, World War II, and they had a plane,

01:37:39.220 - 01:38:07.320

a B-17, come in out at the airport and asked some of us to come out there for a big celebration that they had. And just among my alumni group, I talked to them and different ones in that group now advise me to, you know, talk to some other groups. And they were amazed. I showed them the film, I think the one "We Were Wasps." And then a retirement home,

01:38:07.400 - 01:38:28.600

this one girl I worked with at the college, she's sort of the recreation supervisor there at the home now. So she had me come over and talk to the residents there and they were really interested. So I've gotten back more into relating with the WASP again. Right, and how does it make you feel when you talk to them?

01:38:29.160 - 01:38:58.880

Well, I'd say very proud because they all, you know, "I can't believe that you did this and I never knew about it." And it's, you know, letting them know that we were there. What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? I'm very glad that she was a strong woman that she was that pursued this WASP program.

01:39:01.060 - 01:39:30.200

Other than that, I really don't really know that much about her except that she was a a pioneer in flying and a very strong woman. When you read her story of how she started out with nothing and ended up the way she did, it's amazing. You really have to honor her that she was the person that she was.

01:39:31.820 - 01:39:59.340

What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? Well I think with something like this that you're doing, it will be something that we remembered and now with the Women's Memorial in Washington and everything too. It was just the other branches of the service that women were recognized in until just recently

01:39:59.500 - 01:40:18.120

now that the WASPs were being recognized. And I think it will continue to be more and more. when you talk to any of the women pilots that are in the service today, like different times when we've been at some of the bases, they say, "Oh, you know, if it weren't for you

01:40:18.150 - 01:40:42.120

gal, we wouldn't be doing this." So I think it just has to be promoted more. This program that you have is wonderful. What do you think your legacy will be? Mine? Oh, not much. I don't know. I have no idea really.

01:40:44.480 - 01:41:20.020

Let me ask you this. In everybody's life there are good times and bad times and sad times and glad times. During those sad times, what has gotten you through those sad times? Just the determination to find something to look forward to doing and pursuing that. I try not to look back at things because if I do, as I say, I get very depressed.

01:41:20.510 - 01:41:38.160

I think, "I should have done this and I should have done that." And I sometimes think that I really made a mess out of my whole life. But I think I can't dwell on that. I have to go ahead and take each day as it comes and try and make the most of it.

01:41:39.480 - 01:42:14.620

If you could say something to your grandchildren or great-grandchildren or children in the future, 25, 50 years from now, that might give them some hope or encourage them to become something that they thought might be impossible, like you perhaps thought flying was impossible for a woman, what would you like to say to those grandchildren and other children? It's hard to imagine what the world's going to be like when they're growing up.

01:42:15.480 - 01:42:38.480

When you think back now and think the word "astronaut" was something that wasn't even known at all in our youth, and with them growing up now, I can't imagine what the world's going to be like. But just to find something that you're interested in and pursue it and be around positive people

01:42:38.600 - 01:43:02.840

that will help you to go forward. Don't be discouraged about little things, just if you want to do something, do it. And what about education? well, pursue education as much as you can because it's constantly, the fields of education

01:43:03.000 - 01:43:29.480

are even changing too. Well, like computers. I watch these little kids now with computers and I think, "If they can do it, I can do it." But it's hard for me to do it, but they're doing it and there's so many things like that. It's just constantly changing and they have to keep up with it and I can't imagine what it's going to be like really, but education

01:43:29.620 - 01:43:53.320

is the most important thing to be able to keep up with the world. Is there anything that you can think back that we haven't covered or anything else that you would like to say? you'd like to say to your children who will be watching this long after?

01:43:54.720 - 01:44:02.780

Tell us which one is your favorite? No. They all are. That's it.

01:44:02.840 - 01:44:14.540

I just hope my children understand me if they see this and try to make the most of their lives. That's it. They're doing pretty good.

01:44:14.540 - 01:44:39.360

A couple of them have problems, but they're working through them, I think. The other ones are strong people, very strong. They have their own mind about the way they want to do things and everything. Sometimes it's hard to see what they're doing, but if they're doing the right thing, morally

01:44:39.340 - 01:44:53.640

right in that way, that's all that matters, just to pursue what they want. I think they'll be real proud of this. I'm real proud that you were my babe-aint. I am too, that you're doing this.

01:44:54.600 - 01:45:08.840

Can I ask you, Jane, how tall were you, that Cochran made that comment? Well, I was just really about 5'2", but if I stretched I was 5'2-1/2" that I had to be. Now I'm five foot.

01:45:10.160 - 01:45:21.360

I'm glad you were in line in front of me. Oh, when she said that I just said, "Oh, she's going to give him two inches." [Laughter] How tall was she?

01:45:22.300 - 01:45:32.900

Well, she wasn't really that tall. Oh, maybe five, five, six. And the other thing I wanted to ask you, the two flying tigers that you worked for, do you remember who they were? Because some of those guys are still alive.

01:45:33.380 - 01:45:50.780

I don't remember their names. I said I would have, you know, years ago, but I don't remember. They had just come back from China and they were starting this business and it was just a little room down there in Ann Arbor, but they'd gotten this contract with Ford there

01:45:50.960 - 01:46:06.600

that was doing the Liberator and Willow Run. And one of these -- it was a breakdown of the B-24 that we were doing, all the parts, you know. That's incredible. Do you have a favorite word?

01:46:13.960 - 01:46:26.600

No, I know all the kids now, what do they say? You know. That's all the kids say. Every time they say something, they say you know. But I don't have a favorite word. Don't have to have a favorite word, just a question. No.

01:46:26.940 - 01:46:34.680

Okay. Well, we're done. I think we're done. Jane, we're done! - Oh, good. (laughing) - That wasn't so bad.

01:46:34.720 - 01:46:40.420

- You did great. - You did great. That was wonderful. There are lots of little gems in there.

01:46:42.900 - 01:46:50.140

- I wanna see some more paintings. This, I love this one. - I had completely forgotten about that, but I remember your sketching.

01:46:50.940 - 01:46:57.700

Sitting and sketching. - I was studying. (laughing) I was always drawing funny faces.

01:46:57.880 - 01:47:02.440

That's it. I had a piece of paper, but doing anything else, I was always doing a funny face on it.