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was the employer and that's what all the town revolved around. So I was an outsider and always remained an outsider. I was never really, really included. And that's the kind of thing we need on tape because some other kid is going to be in that same situation and then they'll look at your life and think, "Look what she did. Why can't

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I do something?" Well, anytime I can help young people, I try. Well, that's where Nancy's heart is. Well, no, it's just part of life.

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Well, as she said, these women all have the qualities. I'm not going to go with you anymore with that big old camera. So she said, "Well, then you'll just have to buy one." [Laughter]

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And I said, "It's your inheritance." She said, "I'd rather have it now." (Laughter) (Off camera) Jackie, I'm rolling!

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(Laughter) I'm going to start off and then we'll start. Well, any time you need me to move, it will look better if I change my position. (Off camera) You look great.

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I need all the help I can get. (Laughter) I'm Deanie Parish. I'm with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Jacqueline Carmine.

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She was a WASP class 43-8. We are in her beautiful home in Stewart, Florida. Today is the 27th of April, 2003. The videographer is Nancy Parrish.

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All right, Jacqueline, let's start off, if you could tell us your full name and when and where you were born. >> Jacqueline Rixey Lake Carmine,

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and I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Tell me about your mom. What was your mom like? Oh, boy, she was very great. I was very fortunate to have someone as wonderful as she. My father worked all day, of course, and he never had too much disciplining to do, but Mother disciplined

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and taught us right from wrong. taught us religion, helped us with their studies. We were very fortunate. Tell me about your siblings.

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I have had two sisters and a brother. My brother graduated from the Naval Academy and was a carrier pilot. My older sister was a secretary,

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She started work when she was in high school. She was working at the telephone company, which in those days you plugged it from one spot to another spot. You didn't have all the wonderful electronics today.

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They did not have those then. Then she went on to a secretarial school and worked secretarial in Miami and also in Baltimore. When she moved north, she was doing that too. She eventually became executive vice president of the company that brought in the mixer and

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did very well. Then she retired and moved to Florida. I have another sister who also went to secretarial school and worked as a secretary and married Norman Hartung, who was in the shipping business in Baltimore.

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And that's the four of us. >> Great. Tell me, what did your dad do? >> He was with the American Oil Company and was the real estate person who surveyed all

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properties and bought properties for filling stations for what is now Amoco. He was on the board of directors and the zoning board and just about everything. He was a very careful and honest person, and people liked him and they wanted him. He was on the board of directors of the building and loan, the library, the bank. When they needed somebody who they felt

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comfortable with talking to, that's where they went. Were your mom and dad involved in different organizations other than the board, but social organizations? No, mother was president of the PTA for a while, for about four or five years, I guess.

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But they didn't do any outside activities. They stayed at home. We knew where they were and they knew where we were. Tell me about your grandparents.

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My grandfather on Mother's side died when she was about six years old. So then her mother worked as a housekeeper for another gentleman and they eventually married. So it was my stepfather that I knew.

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I never knew my grandfather. My grandmother was just one of those wonderful older people that you could relate to, and she was always glad to see us. She made the best French fries I have ever tasted, even better than I can find today.

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On my father's side, I never knew my grandfather. He died before I was born, and my grandmother lived with us part of the time. I knew her. She was a Virginian and very proud of the fact that she was from Virginia.

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And your mother, did she live close? She was in Philadelphia the last two or three years of her life. She came and lived with us, but she had had a stroke or two. It was comfortable for us.

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We were glad to know where she was and what we could do for her. In growing up, did you visit that grandparent? In Philadelphia, yes. Several different times.

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On my own, we'd catch a train in those days where there weren't any planes. You caught a train and went where you wanted to go. I would spend one or two weeks with them during the summertime between semesters in school. And what would you do when you were in their home?

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Behave myself. No, we would visit around Philadelphia and she would take us to different places. What do you think you learned from your grandparents? I think you learn respect and respect of others and honesty and love.

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When you were growing up, what was a typical Christmas like in your home? It started Christmas Eve, and we had the most wonderful Christmas dinners. And all the family was there every Christmas, even after I was married. Now after I was married, I couldn't make it because I was with my children and my husband

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and his family. But all the rest of the family managed to get back for Christmas because they were all around that area. Kelly: When you were growing up, did you live in town or live outside of the city?

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Well, in my probably three to ten years, we lived on a farm. I climbed every tree there. They were big oak trees and walnut trees. I loved the open spaces like that.

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Kelly: What did you have on the farm? Did you have animals or gardens? >> Dad worked in Baltimore, so he did not have anything to do with it. But he had a man taking care of it, and mostly he raised vegetables for the family.

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The only cattle that were there was one in Charlotte. My sister and I had a wonderful time throwing cherries at the cow. The cow chased us up the cherry tree, and we stayed there for a while until the cow left. But we had fun.

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Did you have pets? Oh yes, always. We always had a dog, or not many cats when I was growing up. But after I was married, we had dogs and cats. And growing up, did you have chores? Did you help?

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He always set the table, did the dishes, because we were girls. One of my jobs was to take care of my brother. We always dressed for dinner, not dress up, but we washed our faces and hands and put on clean clothes if we were out scuffing around.

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One of my jobs was to—my sisters took care of the table and everything, and I was supposed to get my brother ready to come down. Well, you know, it's pretty hard when you have a little fellow, you have to get him straight.

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When he would never hold his head still, so I just grabbed him by the chin and held him, you know, while I combed his hair. He remembered that all of his life. >> When you were living on the farm, did you have a car?

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>> I'm sorry? >> A car? How did you get into town? We had electric trains in those days. We're going back now. I went on the farm in the late '20s, and they had electric trains in those days to go from Baltimore to Annapolis

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to Washington and back to Baltimore. If you wanted to go anyplace, you got on the train and went there. Now, my father had a car, but the rest of us rode the train ninety percent of the time. Did those trains look like the trains today, or describe what that train was like?

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It's above a streetcar, but below a steam engine like we think of as those cars. If you detached one of the parlor cars from the train that we know of as a steam engine today, and put an electric engine in it and ran it. That's what it would look like.

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>> Would you occasionally go up to Baltimore to see your dad, or did he do all the traveling pretty much? >> No, we always used the train to go into town, and of course, later on we moved a little bit closer to Baltimore,

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but still on the train track, so to speak. And we would just go down and catch a train to go to Baltimore. We used to go to Baltimore on the weekends, or for school, secretarial school. We always took the train and go to Annapolis.

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I used to be a counselor at a camp there, and whenever I would go, I would always have to take the train. Where did you start school? In a little town called Severna Park.

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That was between Glen Burnie and Robinson and Annapolis. It was a small town on the Severn River, a beautiful little town. How far did you live from school? Could you walk?

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Most of the time, we always lived close enough, whether it was Saverna Park, we had to get the train to go to school. But later on, when we moved to Glen Burnie, we always walked to school, high school, elementary school.

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But in, say, first grade, you rode the train? the train. Kelly: And were your siblings older or younger? Beall: I was the second.

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One sister was younger, and my brother was about ten years younger than I am. Kelly: And to get from your house to the train? Beall: Oh, it was about a two-block walk down a dirt road, you know, farmland. What would you do in the wintertime when it was snowing?

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Get out the sled and have a wonderful time. Did you have a horse to pull the sled? Nope. We got on it at the top of the hill and had a wonderful ride.

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In elementary school, do you recall any teacher that might have had an influence with you? I remember one teacher in particular. If there was a noise in the class, that teacher only had to look at you, and nobody made a move.

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And all the rest of the teachers were just, as far as I was concerned, good elementary teachers, and they tried to help us. But the children in those days, we didn't have the talking and the smart talking that there is in schools today.

00:14:02.580 - 00:14:24.680

Everybody sat and listened, because if you didn't, you'd get sent out of the class. Kelly: Why do you feel that it has changed so much? I think it's changed mainly because we don't have the discipline. And why we don't have the discipline, I don't know.

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Because as parents, I think we should back the school because the children cannot learn if the other children are playing around or talking or whatever they are doing today. Because I don't go to the classes to see, but I know and hear that there is so much lack of attention to what the teachers are saying and disrespect for the teachers.

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I feel very strongly that the teachers, 90% of the time, are making an effort to teach the children if they will listen. The one teacher that you remember, was it a male or a female? Female.

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Do you remember any special conditions for a female to teach? For example, were any of your female teachers married? A lot of them, yes. There were some that were not when I got to high school, but all the elementary teachers

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were married and some of the high school teachers. Do you remember in elementary any special subject that you liked? I always liked geography, and I think I've always enjoyed math. When you finished elementary, did you have to change schools?

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Yes. We went directly from the eighth grade into high school, and that began with the ninth grade. When you finished seventh grade, did you have a graduation? We went through the eighth grade, but we didn't have a graduation.

00:16:06.500 - 00:16:36.280

We just finished elementary school, and the next semester you went into high school. During that time period, you moved to a different house? We moved in 1928, and we stayed there until 19—I guess my other father stayed there until about 1957. So, we were in the same house. We weren't moving from one place

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to the other. We just went from two blocks this way to one mile that way. Kelly: In growing up in those early years, was your family involved in church activities? Yes, well, not so many activities as such, but we were always in church on Sundays for church school and then church itself.

00:17:04.300 - 00:17:15.180

That was from the time I remember. Did you make friends with other children at church? Have any of those friendships lasted? No.

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In my particular case, my father worked in Baltimore, and we lived in a little town about ten miles from Baltimore called Glen Burnie. The important company in that town was the Johnson Lumber Company. All the people who were living in Glen Burnie at that time were related to the Johnson Lumber

00:17:40.720 - 00:17:59.140

company in some way, whether it was a food service or what have you. And they all kind of stuck together. I was an outsider when I was growing up as far as friends with the people, the young, my age people was concerned.

00:18:00.780 - 00:18:24.420

How do you think that has affected your life? Has it made you more tolerant of others who are maybe not in your circle? >> Well, yes, it's made me more independent and appreciative a little bit more of other people, I think.

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>> Do you know why your family chose that particular town? It was closer to Baltimore, and the farmhouse that we moved from to the house that we had in Glen Burnie, the farmhouse in those days didn't have central heating. They had those coal stoves, and Mother had reached the point where she couldn't tend

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to two or three coal stoves. Since Daddy was traveling so much, they felt it was better to move into a small town, a that had central heat. >> Once you moved to Glen Burnie, was it close enough

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for your father to come home at night? >> Oh, yes. It's only about ten miles from Baltimore. >> Okay. Do you remember your first car, his first car?

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>> You bet I do. >> Tell me about it. >> It was a Chevrolet, two-door Chevrolet. And when I went to work for the FBI, that was in Washington,

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and I lived in Glen Burnie, so it was about 35 miles to Washington. We decided that I'd have to have a car. Men did these things in those days, so Dad went to look to find out what a car would cost.

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It cost $800, brand new, and my father put the $100 down, and I paid the rest. a period of time, not all at once. EC: When you got into high school, ninth grade on, then what did you--what subject did you like?

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RW: Math. I liked math very much, and my teacher wanted me to go ahead through college and major in math. But I went to college and I was concerned because in those days it was expensive, not as expensive as today. But I wasn't sure. So I wrote a letter to Johns Hopkins University and they said there's no future for women except as a teacher or

00:20:46.860 - 00:21:14.340

in economics, home economics. So I said, "Well, that's a waste of time if I'm not going to be able to get a job after I get through." So I too went to secretarial school and went on to be a secretary and that sort of thing in those days. That was a long time ago. Did you have extracurricular activities in high school? What were you interested in?

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Well, I love music, but I don't have an ear for music, so I studied the guitar for about four years and had a beautiful guitar. And I played in a band one night, an all-girls band. But it didn't take them very long to decide they needed somebody different, sorry to say.

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I don't have an ear. I loved it and I learned to play it, but I wasn't good enough to go forward in it. I also loved athletics. I participated in all of the games that I could and had a wonderful time.

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Did you get into competitive sports in high school? Not like you're talking about today. Yes, I was on all the teams they had, whether it was softball or basketball or any of those teams that they had in high school, on a high school level, yes.

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Were you interested in things like speech or drama? No, I wasn't very good at those. What kind of student were you? C student, sometimes A's, once in a while I get a C. You weren't happy with those.

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>> Were your mom and dad very strict as far as your homework and getting good grades? Was that important to them? >> They never said. They never said anything about my grades, but I wanted to do well for them as well as

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for me. Kelly: In the summer times when you had vacations, did your whole family go on a vacation together? We had very few vacations as a family. My father was supporting seven people most of the time, so we didn't have many vacations.

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I used to go as a counselor. I was a counselor at camp and a lifeguard there. In fact, when I first went to camp, they taught me how to swim. I could only do the dog paddle, and they actually taught me within a week to do the crawl and

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to swim. I had a wonderful time. But those were vacations. We did have one vacation.

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We all went to Canada as a family. So we had a wonderful time there, too. What kind of camp was this? A YWCA camp.

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They had YWCAs and YNCAs when I was growing up, and I did a lot of work with the YWCA. Levy: When you were in high school, what was your ambition? Roth: That's so long ago, I don't remember. I just wanted to finish school and go out to work and do things like that.

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I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, except I liked certain subjects and I was going to continue in those. I didn't want to be a teacher, and I didn't want to be a home economics teacher, so I went to secretarial school.

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But I can't remember in high school as having any goal, except horseback riding. How did you get into horseback riding? You didn't have a horse? I don't remember how I got into horseback riding, except that I finally found myself

00:25:13.220 - 00:25:23.640

in the saddle one day and loved it. So I did as much of it as I could. It was 75 cents an hour back then, and I used to work to get 75 cents so I could go ride the horse.

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In growing up, who were your role models? I guess my mother and father, to be as wonderful as they were. It's pretty hard to do, though. In high school, what was your social life like?

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Not much. Didn't have some special little boy that you liked? I had a young fellow that was living up the street that I used to watch as he'd go down the street. But he was a little old for me. I didn't have much social life in high school.

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Did you have a high school prom? Yes. Did you attend? I attended.

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With some other girls? Well, there were some boys there, too. I didn't go with one. How many, about how large was your high school? Not very big. It was about three stories, I guess. We didn't have a lot of people because

00:26:36.160 - 00:26:50.680

they were all bussed in. There was Glen Burnie and Annapolis, and I think Baltimore was the next. There were only a couple of high schools then. What was your graduation like? Did you have caps and gowns?

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Ruth: No, we just had white dresses, just dresses. I mean dresses, not a cap and gown or anything like they do today. We just had white dresses on. Campbell: When you graduated from high school then, what did you do that summer?

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Did you get a job? Ruth: I don't remember what I did that summer. The next fall, of course, I went to college for a year at the University of Maryland. Kelly: Did you still live at home, or did you move?

00:27:25.190 - 00:27:37.460

Beall: No, I lived at the dormitory. Kelly: Did you know any other girls who were going to that same school? Why did you select that school? Beall: I guess because it was close to home.

00:27:39.920 - 00:27:57.700

When you started that school, what was your major? What were you going to study? Ruth: I was in the first year, and we didn't pick a major then. You just had that first year that they brought you up to date, I guess, in English and math

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and history and the basic subjects. Did you make any lasting friendships while you were in college? Yes, I did. I communicate with, well, there are two of us still living, but all my life I communicated

00:28:18.780 - 00:28:45.920

with my roommate and another friend of mine. She in turn communicated with a friend that we both knew. For girls going into the business world or when they finish school during that time, compare that with girls who are now going out into the world as far as jobs.

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I don't think there is well prepared. I'm in real estate and we have people who come, young girls who come in, and some of Some of them are very knowledgeable and some of them are disciplined, but you know, we were taught to be disciplined and knowledgeable and respectful and to dress properly.

00:29:10.740 - 00:29:32.420

The code is not as strict or as up as it used to be. As far as young ladies then preparing for a career, as compared now to the careers that they can go into, what was the difference? I think you were really prepared.

00:29:33.980 - 00:29:49.860

All this was explained to you. What it is now, what they do today, I'm not familiar with. I do know that it is different from the time when I came out and went out to work. You were expected to dress properly.

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You were expected to be respectful. It's not quite that way today. Kelly: And the opportunities for women in professional fields, was it the same then as it is today?

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Not anywhere near. As I said before, when I checked with Johns Hopkins University, they said, "If you want to be a teacher or something like that, secretary, that's it for women. You don't stand a chance anyplace else."

00:30:24.210 - 00:30:46.520

Do you recall where you were and how you felt when Pearl Harbor happened? Yes, I was meeting a young man I was going with, which is now my husband, and we both heard about it almost at the same time and were shocked. And of course, that's one of the things that I do remember.

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I was on the eastern shore of Maryland and was coming back on the ferry boat. We didn't have bridges in those days. And when he met me, he told me. Were you still in college when that happened?

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Ruth: No. Nancy: You had graduated? Ruth: Yes. Nancy: And what were you doing as far as a job?

00:31:07.450 - 00:31:35.760

Ruth: In '41, that happened to be, I had resigned from the FBI in November of '41. Nancy: Let me go back and see when you started working for the FBI. I think it was 1940. And then I had fortunately fallen in love with flying and was resigning to become an

00:31:35.780 - 00:31:57.780

instructor. That was in November and Pearl Harbor was in December. Then they closed the fields down and I couldn't do that. Let me go back and ask you, when is the first time that you ever thought about wanting to

00:31:57.860 - 00:32:15.080

learn to fly? I was at the University of Maryland, and we did not know what to do that afternoon, Saturday afternoon, so we went down to the airfield just to look around. For three dollars, he would take us up and take us around the field.

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So he took two of us at that time. I fell in love with flying right then and there. Of course, I could not afford to do it, but I knew that if an opportunity presented itself, I would.

00:32:33.700 - 00:32:43.180

At that point, were you still in school? I was still in college, yes. And then when you graduated from college? I did not graduate.

00:32:43.240 - 00:32:55.960

I only went one year. One year, okay. And then you got a job with the FBI? No, I went to secretarial school and then worked for a brokerage firm and then the FBI.

00:32:57.120 - 00:33:13.600

How long did the secretarial school last? About a year. They went over, taught you how to write letters, they went over your English, and taught you to take dictation, and then typing and all that sort of thing.

00:33:15.420 - 00:33:30.860

And then, did you move to Washington to work for the FBI? Ruthen: No, I drove. That's when I bought the car and drove. And of course, we worked the night shift when you first begin, and that's the three to

00:33:30.920 - 00:33:50.960

about eleven o'clock at night. Kelly: And it was while you were working for them then that you got this urge to learn to fly? I took the course that the Civil Aeronautics had, and they had just included women.

00:33:51.860 - 00:34:12.080

I passed it, and they gave me the opportunity to fly, to learn to fly. Kelly: Was that the CPT course, is that what they called it? Beall: Yes. Recall for me the first time you went up, had a lesson.

00:34:12.380 - 00:34:21.260

Do you remember your instructor? Diven: Oh, yes. Whip, Ed Whip. It was also his airport that I took the flying lessons.

00:34:21.860 - 00:34:31.260

Kelly: Did you know any other girls who were flying? Diven: No. Never knew anybody. Kelly: What made you think you could do that?

00:34:34.860 - 00:34:56.680

If anybody else could do it, I knew I could do it. Recall for me your solo. What were you flying? Piper. I just went up and went around the field and landed it. Of course, I landed on grass in those days.

00:34:59.680 - 00:35:21.340

Then you just kept flying, right? Quintanilla: Well, at that time I had a little more than the forty hours, and they stopped the flying. So then I went back to work for a remanufacturing company, and that was when I got the word

00:35:21.620 - 00:35:42.180

about the WASP and filled out the application and was accepted. What did your mother and father think about your flying? You know, I've often wondered, because I never went to them and said, "Mom and Dad, I'm going to do this." I was just doing these things and saying what I was going to do, and nobody ever said, "You can't do that," or, "I don't want you to do that."

00:35:42.980 - 00:36:00.320

And I often wondered, I never said, "What do you think?" or, "Should I?" or, "Do you object?" or anything like that at all. It was just, "This is what I'm going to do." And I did it. Do you recall how you heard about the training program for women?

00:36:00.400 - 00:36:23.900

Ed Whipp, who was the instructor at the airport, told me, and he said, "I hear that this is being done." Well, it wasn't until later that I got the information sent to me. After you heard about it, did you then talk to your parents about it?

00:36:25.040 - 00:36:39.820

I do not remember talking to them. I asked my brother. I said, "Did mother and dad ever say anything about my flying?" He said, "I never heard them say anything.

00:36:41.060 - 00:37:02.320

They just accepted it as what I was going to do." Once you applied for training, what did you have to do to be accepted? Well, the first thing I had to do was take a physical. When I was accepted, then they just said they had accepted me otherwise, basically dependent

00:37:02.440 - 00:37:17.600

upon the physical. They just sent me the time to get to Sweetwater. Anything unusual happen while you were learning to fly or while you were flying after you soloed?

00:37:23.060 - 00:37:44.500

Jernigan The most unusual thing of it all was not, well my instructor never could figure out, understand my figure eights, but other than that it's all right. The only really weird thing that happened was my instructor, when I was in instruments,

00:37:45.340 - 00:38:01.960

took me up. You are under the hood, and she flies around, finds a spot to let you on. I was bracketing that beam, and all of a sudden it just seemed to take so much longer. Finally, I figured out what she did.

00:38:01.960 - 00:38:17.480

It did not take but so much time. She had sent me pointed going out instead of in. I came out from under the hood and I said, "Just take me home. Don't fire me, but just take me home."

00:38:17.480 - 00:38:33.760

But it's awful to be trying so hard and you're going backwards all the time. [Laughter] Once you soloed, what did most of your flights consist of? Were you practicing maneuvers?

00:38:36.510 - 00:38:49.060

Did you it? Yes, he would tell you to go up and do this or do that or do something else. All the time that you were flying, was there ever another girl who came in and started flying or were you it?

00:38:52.180 - 00:39:05.380

You mean before I was in the Wasp? No. Never saw any women there at all, not even coming to the field. How were you treated by the male pilots at that little airport?

00:39:06.540 - 00:39:21.100

Very nicely. They were all very complimentary, and I had no problems at all. In fact, I married one of them that came to the airport. Tell me how you met your husband.

00:39:21.700 - 00:39:35.480

At the airport. Was he learning to fly also? He has both eardrums that had been punctured and became infected, and he cannot stand the height.

00:39:37.040 - 00:39:51.520

So I met him there, but he dropped flying because of that. It's just painful. What attracted you to him? What were his qualities?

00:39:53.460 - 00:40:13.180

He was polite, gentlemanly, fun, and I just liked him. Kelly: How did he feel when you decided you wanted to go into the WASP? Reed: I didn't ask him. He was in, where was he?

00:40:13.480 - 00:40:18.840

I don't know, someplace overseas at that time. Kelly: Oh, I see. Okay. In the meantime, he had left.

00:40:18.860 - 00:40:35.200

Reed: Yes. Did you have to have a personal interview before you went into WASP? You know, I don't remember that. I probably did, but I don't remember it. Okay.

00:40:37.920 - 00:40:41.780

Okay. We're going to change tapes. Change tapes. You all right?

00:40:42.780 - 00:40:48.720

[Laughter] You okay? You're very good. You're very good.

00:40:48.720 - 00:40:58.820

Yeah, and that's great. I think having filled out the questionnaire probably reminded you of things. Yeah, it did help. Okay.

00:40:59.760 - 00:41:06.700

When you, when your friend left to go overseas, were you

00:41:07.460 - 00:41:16.060

committed to each other? No. How did you get from Washington or Baltimore out to Avenger Field?

00:41:16.660 - 00:41:34.900

You know, I was what, 23 or 24, somewhere in there. And even in those days, your father would take you to the train and tip the porter and tell the porter, "You take care of her now. Don't you let anything happen to her."

00:41:35.020 - 00:41:50.080

And that's how I got on the train and went all the way to Sweetwater. It was a beautiful trip. It really was. Do you recall your first impressions of Sweetwater?

00:41:51.450 - 00:42:07.380

Good man, where am I? You know, I went in the whole town. I wasn't aware that there'd be others there or what have you. Other people were kind of mixing it up, but I was by myself again.

00:42:09.540 - 00:42:26.260

I remember going out, "Where am I going to eat?" out and looked on the street, and there looked like there was a—what did they call them back in those days? It was a little hamburger place. It looked like that, because it was white. So I thought, "Well, I'll walk down." I didn't see any place else. I'm

00:42:26.380 - 00:42:45.320

sure they had a place in the hotel, but I was too new at this to be wandering around in there. So I went out to the corner, and there was this white restaurant. I thought, "Well, I'll go in and I'll get a steak.

00:42:45.480 - 00:43:00.980

This is Texas, where they have all these cattle." I did, and they asked me what kind I wanted. I didn't know what to ask for, but I said, "I'll have that kind of steak." It came back, and it filled the whole plate.

00:43:02.840 - 00:43:20.180

But it was tough. And when I went back, the last time I was in Sweetwater, I thought, "I'd like to find a place that has a tender steak in Texas." I never got that one either.

00:43:20.760 - 00:43:28.000

Didn't have time to find one there. And then, did you spend the night in the hotel? Do you remember? Yes.

00:43:29.600 - 00:43:40.440

How did you get from the hotel out to the airfield? The cattle truck. What is a cattle truck? It's a strange contraption.

00:43:44.900 - 00:44:00.040

It's really hard to explain. It has a roof on it and sides on it and there are holes punched in the side. The seats are just hard as they can be. You sit on them and the bus goes, and that's all there is to it.

00:44:01.560 - 00:44:17.600

But you need to see it to understand it. Dianne: And were there other girls that went out on this cattle truck with you? Elizabeth: Yes. Dianne: When you got out to Avenger, recall for me how you felt and what you did.

00:44:21.400 - 00:44:39.360

Well, they took us down to the cabins, and I think we just picked a bed. And then they took us back up to the auditorium, and they told us we were expendable. And I thought, "My God, I didn't know that. I didn't realize that.

00:44:39.970 - 00:44:57.960

I joined this group." When Jacqueline Cochran was there, she thanked us for coming and explained that fifty percent of us would not make it. And again, I thought, "Why did I come?"

00:44:59.740 - 00:45:17.360

Then we were taken back and we went through all the picking up your sheets and your clothes and your shots and all of this that everybody has to go through. What you really did was join the Army, but you didn't know it. What were your expectations?

00:45:20.400 - 00:45:35.960

I don't think I ever thought about that. I was just going to fly. Did you think you were going to be in the military? It didn't say so, and I took it at its word at the time.

00:45:37.780 - 00:45:49.580

Describe what your barracks were like. Dr. Quintanilla There were six beds in there. There was one window.

00:45:50.380 - 00:46:10.220

There was an area that was very small where you could get a shower and wash your face in a basin, and you had a john. I can't remember whether the floor was wood or concrete, but it was hard floor, and the beds were nothing but a cot.

00:46:11.300 - 00:46:29.900

You had a stand besides the bed where you could put your clothes. At one end, there was one long board where you could study. But that was what was there when I entered. Kelly: Tell me about your baymates.

00:46:29.900 - 00:46:44.140

Oh, there was no air conditioning. I'm not sure whether there were screens on the window. There was a screen on the door, but I'm not sure about the window. The baymates were really very nice.

00:46:45.180 - 00:47:01.840

We were all there together. We didn't know what we were doing at that particular time. We were looking forward to flying more than anything else. we heard some of the rules and regulations, we were quite surprised.

00:47:03.400 - 00:47:22.960

What were some of the most outstanding rules that you remember? Of course everybody remembers that it was called Jacqueline Cochran's convent, I think, because of the hours that were not allowed to go out, which was most of the time, and nobody was allowed in.

00:47:25.820 - 00:47:45.440

But then there were certain—I have forgotten most of them now—but there were certain rules and regulations about keeping their cabin or bay clean, and noise, lights out, all these things. I had not thought that we were going to be that regulated when I went down.

00:47:45.990 - 00:48:01.960

Kelly: Describe for me a typical day in training. Well, each class was divided into two flights. One flight would go to the flight line in the morning and class in the afternoon, and the other flight would reverse it.

00:48:03.500 - 00:48:29.640

In the morning, you went to the flight line, and if the weather was bad, you just sat there. If the weather was good, we all had our flight hours or time that we flew. Our instructors told us what they wanted us to practice. In the afternoon, we went to regular classes, engineering, math, navigation, Morse code,

00:48:30.200 - 00:48:46.160

English. What were your uniforms like? When I was there, there were brown pants and white shirt with a cap. And to fly in?

00:48:47.980 - 00:49:09.420

To fly? No, we had what was called a zoot suit. Most of the girls really looked pretty zoot suity with them because you had a belt that tied it in the middle and the pants were about three legs too long, arms too.

00:49:10.480 - 00:49:28.060

And if it weren't for the belt in the middle, you would really have looked silly. She looked silly anyway, but this did help. Where did you get your food? We had a cafeteria, and they served pretty good food, really.

00:49:30.400 - 00:49:56.440

How about any kind of exercise? We had the regular course that the men had every day. You chin, you run, you run in place, you exercise up and down. Kelly: When you went to Avenger, what did you feel that you were learning to fly those

00:49:56.500 - 00:50:10.640

airplanes for? What would be the outcome of that training? Ritz: I had thought that it would be the Ferry Command. I did not know about the other positions that were coming forward all the time.

00:50:10.700 - 00:50:29.940

At that time, I thought I would just be ferrying planes from one place to another. Kelly: And the paid personnel that were in charge of the base, who were those people? Beall: Oh, I've forgotten all their names now, but they were very good. Kelly: Were they civilians or military?

00:50:30.360 - 00:50:47.520

Beall: Civilians. Kelly: But the commanding officer, the top structure, what were they? Well, he was a colonel, U-something. His last name began with a U, I remember.

00:50:52.880 - 00:51:14.980

He was very nice. I went to see him a couple of times, and he was just as nice as he could be. Kelly: When you flew in the open cockpits, did you have to wear something on your head? Yes, a lot of women had long hair, and they had to keep that tied down or up in some way

00:51:15.180 - 00:51:27.240

so it wouldn't be flying around all over. And of course, we had our safety belts. Kelly: But as far as turbans or hairnets? There was a turban at one time.

00:51:28.280 - 00:51:58.060

When I first went there, there were no rules regarding that. But as time went by, before I graduated, they did require you to have a turban. Kelly: When you were at Avenger, did Ms. Cochran visit often? Not really, but she would come in maybe once a month or maybe a little bit more than that.

00:52:00.220 - 00:52:19.260

Her position was in Washington at the Pentagon, and I'm sure she was trying to do everything she could to have the program progress further. What was the first airplane you flew at Avenger? Ruth: A PT-19.

00:52:19.920 - 00:53:06.060

Anything unusual happen while you were in primary training? I was the third person to fly a plane that morning. The other person, the numbers, they were fueling the planes according to even and odd numbers. They had fueled the plane that I was to fly the period before, so that when I called them

00:53:06.080 - 00:53:29.680

over to put fuel in the plane, they wouldn't put it in. So I took off, and that was the day we were supposed to fly 500-foot patterns. I had dropped down, unfortunately, to 400 feet, and the engine quit. So I hit the wobble punt, and the smoke came out.

00:53:31.300 - 00:53:46.300

So I thought, "Oh, man, now what do I do?" So I looked around and found a place to land in the cornfield. As it happens, the person before had flown two periods, so the Evenplane did not get fueled.

00:53:49.300 - 00:54:07.320

So I was out of gas on one side and didn't realize that that had to happen, because they said, "You don't need gas." But they didn't wash me out. Kelly: So when you landed in the cornfield, what happened?

00:54:07.440 - 00:54:22.600

How did you get back to the base? Davidson: Eventually, they came looking for me. I was far enough away, so I didn't want to walk, so I just sat there, 110 degrees. You know, when I got back for dinner, all they had was melted ice cream.

00:54:25.730 - 00:54:32.480

[Laughter] Kelly: Who came and got you? Did they bring gas, or what happened? Roslyn: No, they might have had gas.

00:54:32.540 - 00:54:58.740

I don't remember, but he turned it around and he turned it on, because he had gone to the other tank. I landed it properly into the wind and down the corn, whatever they are. They took the fence down and he took off from the farmer's property.

00:54:59.730 - 00:55:06.760

Did you ride back with him? Somebody. I don't remember who it was. I meant in the airplane?

00:55:06.850 - 00:55:12.280

Oh, no. No. You came back with the driver. Yes.

00:55:13.440 - 00:55:31.540

Did you have to go before the board? No. I don't know whether they were going to wash me out or not, but the instructor or whatever, the head of that organization that was doing that, got up and was talking to

00:55:31.620 - 00:55:50.620

the class. I said, "Sir," and I told him what had happened, that I'd pull them over. I said, "All you have to do is ask the dispatcher, and she'll tell you that they were lined up, all even numbers in this column, all odd numbers in this column."

00:55:50.620 - 00:56:06.760

And he did, and nothing happened. I never heard one word. Nobody ever said anything to me about that after that. Kelly: When you finished your primary training, then what aircraft did you fly?

00:56:07.020 - 00:56:20.940

Brennan: A BT-13. Kelly: What was the purpose of flying the BT? Brennan: I think it was just a transition. That was all.

00:56:21.440 - 00:56:42.880

They went from the PT to the BT to the AT and then to the twin engine. I think later on in the course they dropped the BT, if I'm not mistaken. I might be mistaken, but I thought that, and they just went from the PT to the AT6. I don't know whether they had any further training at Sweetwater before it closed or

00:56:42.900 - 00:56:49.740

not. I don't know. Did any of your baymates wash out? Yes.

00:56:50.660 - 00:57:00.660

How did that make you feel? Scary. Especially when you had an Army check coming out. [Laughter]

00:57:01.580 - 00:57:13.900

Do you know why? Did just one wash out? No, several of them washed out. One was sick and couldn't continue with the class, and when she went back, I don't

00:57:13.960 - 00:57:38.220

know why, but she later on became a flight instructor for students going into the service. the others? Rose: I do not know. When that happened, as far as at my time, you were out of there very, very quickly.

00:57:40.000 - 00:57:56.160

Kelly: While you were in training, were any of the girls killed? Rose: My bay mate. Kelly: What happened? I don't know really, but they changed the altimeter settings.

00:57:57.120 - 00:58:22.160

We were flying at—the altimeter setting was at zero when we were started. And then they decided to change the altimeter setting to the actual elevation. And she spun in, and we don't know—they then turned it back to doing it at zero, you know, from that time on. I don't know whether that was it or what.

00:58:22.590 - 00:58:33.640

Kelly: What was she in? Beall: A PT. Kelly: Did it happen on the field or adjacent? Beall: No, no. It happened wherever she was practicing it. I don't know. They didn't

00:58:33.720 - 00:59:01.960

tell us where it happened. Kelly: How did that affect the rest of you? Pretty much. It's a difficult thing when you get to know someone. Even though we're all there for the same purpose, to fly planes for the service, it's still a difficult

00:59:02.060 - 00:59:15.500

thing to take, even though you know that there are going to be casualties and you might be one of them. What was her name? Gosh, I've known it all these years, and all of a sudden you ask me and I've forgotten.

00:59:15.840 - 00:59:31.640

Kelly: What happened to her personal belongings? Did her family go? Reed: No, I do not know. They got them all together and then the girls got her personal things together and they

00:59:31.700 - 00:59:49.100

were sent home. I do not know whether Jack Weldon Cochran paid for it or whether the family was able to pay for it. I do not know. Jacqueline Cochran did take care of quite a few women who had died or whoever died in service.

00:59:54.440 - 01:00:08.580

>> When you finished the BT, then the next airplane that you flew was? >> AT. How did you feel about that AT-6? Oh, I loved it.

01:00:09.980 - 01:00:22.640

I spent most of my time in it. What was different about the AT-6 than the BT? The BT shook, rattled, and rolled. The AT-6 was just as sweet a plane as you want to fly.

01:00:23.700 - 01:00:41.020

What was your training in the AT-6 primarily for? Was it just to go to more horsepower? A different plane, flying—well, we did some cross-country, but also flying a faster plane and using the runway.

01:00:41.100 - 01:00:50.980

Of course, the BT, they put us on the runway, too, and checking in and out at the tower and all this sort of thing. Levy: Okay. The PT, you did not use runways?

01:00:51.460 - 01:01:12.900

Reid: No. We landed always on the ground. While you were in the 86th, did you have other duties other than just what everybody else had?

01:01:12.900 - 01:01:28.540

Were you assigned a different duty of some kind? Ruth. I was fortunate enough to be assigned as squadron commander for the incoming class. That was something that I enjoyed very much.

01:01:28.770 - 01:01:48.320

Kelly: And which class was that? Beall: 44W-4. Kelly: And what were your duties? Beall: Well, the one I loved the most was when they had just come in and had changed

01:01:48.380 - 01:02:09.060

their clothes and were going up to meet Jacqueline Cochran. I told them, "Let's see if we can really march up there like we're old-timers." I said, "All you have to do is the first two keep in step, and then all you have to do is stay in step with the person in front of you."

01:02:09.240 - 01:02:20.160

They looked like they were just great when they marched right on up. I was so pleased. I think Jockwell and Cochran was impressed, too. We all did a terrific job.

01:02:21.860 - 01:02:41.480

[Laughter] >> While you were at Avenger, did you have weekends off? >> I think Saturday afternoon, if you were not flying, they would let you go out, but you had to be in by, I think it was 11 or 12 o'clock on Saturdays.

01:02:41.480 - 01:02:58.480

But you were not allowed during the week that I am aware of. On Sunday, I'm sure you had to be in earlier on Sunday, because we had classes and flying the next day. Kelly: Do you recall meeting any of the townspeople in Sweetwater?

01:02:58.560 - 01:03:12.220

Ridgell: No, I didn't. I don't remember meeting anybody. Kelly: While you were in training, were you aware of what the girls were doing who had already graduated?

01:03:13.320 - 01:03:28.960

Ridgell: No, no. It wasn't until the class before us, '43-'7, that we realized that they were doing different things with them then. I think we were all very pleased.

01:03:31.120 - 01:03:49.100

Some of them were assigned to heavier planes and bigger planes and what have you. What was your graduation like? I don't remember much about that, but it was inside, and we received our wings, and that's what we were all looking forward to.

01:03:49.200 - 01:03:58.340

EC: Was Miss Cochran there? FG: I think so. She was on almost everything. EC: Do you recall any other generals or celebrities?

01:03:58.820 - 01:04:14.720

FG: No. Ours was right at Christmas time, just before Christmas, so we didn't have many celebrities there. Since you were there in the summertime, describe what the weather was like.

01:04:14.720 - 01:04:31.340

Hot. Very hot. And as far as sand, do you recall? You know, it was so hot we thought we'd sleep outside. Well, a lot of us put our cots outside.

01:04:32.220 - 01:04:50.460

And then we found we were under the sheet because of the sand blowing all the time. So we decided to go back inside. We laughed about landing ten feet high because of the sand rather than on the ground. But there was a lot of blowing sand.

01:04:52.920 - 01:05:13.340

When you graduated, what did your orders say? Sweetwater? No, no, no. Spence Field, Moultrie, Georgia. Had you requested to go? They asked us where we would like. I said a fighter plane and East Coast.

01:05:14.280 - 01:05:33.300

And that was all that we were allowed to put in. I'm sorry I didn't put Twin Engine and West Coast or something like that, because I think they had more opportunities than we did on the East Coast. Were there other of your classmates who were also sent to Spence?

01:05:33.300 - 01:05:51.840

Yes, two of them, Marge Selbridge and Margo Reck. When you left Sweetwater, did you have some time off before reporting? Yes, I think we reported about the first of the year. We had from that time on to the first of each.

01:05:51.860 - 01:06:01.020

Did you go home? Yes. By that time, had your brother already gone into service? No, he's ten years younger than I am.

01:06:02.260 - 01:06:21.600

He was still about thirteen or fourteen years old, and it wasn't until later that he graduated from the Navy. He graduated in '51, but he was in—at least flew over—Vietnam anyway. He was not a fighter pilot there, because he was in the Navy.

01:06:23.720 - 01:06:35.740

Is there anything about your training that I've left out that you would like to tell us about? Lee: Oh, there were a couple of things I was thinking about, but I can't remember right now.

01:06:39.980 - 01:07:01.260

Lee: Anything happen on a cross-country? Lee: No, never got lost, fortunately. What was your favorite subject in ground school, or your most unfavorite subject? [Laughter]

01:07:02.390 - 01:07:18.780

I think link trainer was the worst. It was hot in there. What is a link trainer? It is an instrument that is used to teach you—it is a contraption that teaches you

01:07:18.780 - 01:07:33.520

instrument flying. They're much simpler today and beautiful, but it was a little sort of like the cockpit of an airplane that you sat in. Dornstreit-Rick, Jr. Were you good at Morse code?

01:07:34.400 - 01:07:44.960

Steele-Rick, Jr. I passed. That's all I want to say. Dornstreit-Rick, Jr. Where did you go on a cross country when you were in '86s, for example?

01:07:45.800 - 01:07:55.100

Steele-Rick, Jr. I don't remember. Dornstreit-Rick, Jr. Do you recall what was the difference between your training and that given to the male cadets who were learning?

01:07:55.220 - 01:08:23.780

It was supposed to be the same. They claim it was the same thing. I understand that later on, as far as the women were concerned, that they did get different kind of training besides the AT-6, but I don't know what it was. When you finished the '86 training, did you train on another type of aircraft? Widnalls: Yes, the twin-engine.

01:08:24.210 - 01:08:40.060

They called them the UC-78s, I think. Kelly: How was that different than what you had been doing? Widnalls: Mainly, you had two engines, and you had to learn to switch over and control the plane if one engine went out.

01:08:40.460 - 01:08:50.580

But basically, it was still flying. EILEEN HURST: And what did they mainly use that training for? Was it for cross-country training? BENNETT: I'm sorry?

01:08:50.590 - 01:09:07.700

HURST: For the twin engine, was it mostly cross-country? BENNETT: No, it was to teach us to fly twin engine planes. HURST: Were you ever assigned to trainees to go up in that plane, or were you always with an instructor?

01:09:08.300 - 01:09:27.540

No, we had co-pilots as other trainees. We checked out in it, and then our co-pilot was another trainee in our class. Levy: Anything unusual happen during that phase of training? Heaton: No, it was just a nice, easy plane to fly.

01:09:27.700 - 01:09:46.600

Levy: Did you ever ride a horse at Sweetwater? >> No, I never got a chance. >> Okay. Once you went to Spence, to whom did you report? >> I'm sorry?

01:09:47.220 - 01:09:55.960

>> To whom did you report when you reported in at Spence Air Force Base? >> The -- >> Was it someone --

01:09:55.960 - 01:10:02.280

>> Operations officer. >> Okay, that was a military officer. >> Yes. >> Were there already WASPs stationed there?

01:10:02.280 - 01:10:20.920

No, no. And we were given a room and a desk, and the operation officer scheduled us. How many of you went there? Three to begin with, and then they did add another one, and they were going to add some more.

01:10:21.340 - 01:10:42.480

Okay. What was Spence Air Force Base used for? AT-6 training. That was just before they would go into the P-40s and down to Eglin. And we We used to fly the mail and anything that was needed into Eglin for this group also, our particular group.

01:10:42.920 - 01:11:00.460

Okay. Were your quarters with the nurses or the WACs? We had a little house. It was in the area where the WACs were, but we were an independent little—three of us.

01:11:01.180 - 01:11:22.480

How were you accepted by the male pilots on the base? Jill: Most of them were married, from the standpoint of—and the rest of them were students. And there were one or two that had flown over the hump that we associated with on occasions,

01:11:22.740 - 01:11:45.500

but there was very little association, really. How did you spend your time when you were not flying? Well, you would go to the movies once in a while, or go to the officers' club and have dinner or something like that, but there wasn't much to do at our particular field.

01:11:46.400 - 01:12:12.080

So as far as your social life? There wasn't much of it. Anything unusual happen while you were stationed at Spence? One time, I was through flying for the day, and I thought, "You know, I love a milkshake.

01:12:13.340 - 01:12:24.600

I'm going to have a milkshake." So I had a milkshake. And why I went back to the flight line, I do not know. The operations officers said, "Come with me."

01:12:25.920 - 01:12:54.360

I thought, "Oh, my lamb, what have I done now?" And then one of the other officers, who I happened to marry a woman I happened to know, and he put me in the front seat. We went up and they did one of these fifteen, twenty minute fighter plane maneuvers.

01:12:56.800 - 01:13:11.920

And you know, by the time I got down, I was so glad to get on the ground. I didn't know I'd have kissed the ground if they hadn't been there. But I knew they were waiting for me. I was a woman and they were just waiting for me, you know.

01:13:12.980 - 01:13:32.140

I thought, "Oh, I'm glad I got down." I was looking for my cap though. During the time you were stationed at Spence, were other WASPs assigned to that base also? Yes, there were.

01:13:34.020 - 01:13:55.320

I don't know what happened to some of them, but there were others there. While you were there, did you get orders for a temporary assignment to any place else? Rose: No. I did get an order to go to one of the northern spots, and then it was canceled.

01:13:56.300 - 01:14:11.300

So I had wanted to ferry planes, and we were not doing anything there. We had reached a point where we had so many pilots on the field that we were not doing much flying. So I had requested that, and that came in, then it was canceled.

01:14:11.780 - 01:14:22.380

Then I got ordered to go to Sweetwater at the very last minute, so I didn't go. Did you go to the OCS at Orlando? Yes. Tell me about that.

01:14:24.260 - 01:14:38.560

How did you get there? We must have gone by bus or train. Did all of you go? I don't think so.

01:14:39.240 - 01:14:56.320

What was the purpose of that school? Supposedly, it was an officer's training point, class and all, and that's my understanding that it was. I met some people there that I had known in high school, actually.

01:14:59.700 - 01:15:13.800

Was this school just for female pilots? Oh, no. They were mostly men, just a few women. Tell me about that particular course.

01:15:13.940 - 01:15:27.900

What did you take? The only thing that I remember, we had other courses, but the only thing I remember was the recognition. They had the different planes that we were supposed to recognize, whether they were German

01:15:28.100 - 01:15:43.160

or French or English or American or what have you. That's the thing that sticks out in my mind. I know we had other courses, but I'm not sure what they were now. Did you recall having maybe military courtesy type?

01:15:44.120 - 01:15:56.440

Probably. Where did you live while you were in training there? We had quarters there, right there. Do you recall how long that training course lasted?

01:15:56.460 - 01:16:16.140

Not long, one or two weeks. And then you went back to Spence? As far as your social life at Spence, were you corresponding with this young man that you had met previously?

01:16:16.810 - 01:16:27.120

Had that gotten to a serious point? Widnall: Yes, he came down there. He came to Spence, and in those days he had a transfer along the line someplace, I don't know.

01:16:27.840 - 01:16:51.700

The way the train was heated was a coal stove in the middle of the train. Two of us had to ferry some planes to New Orleans, I mean three of us, the three of us that were there. Other men pilots were flying them, too.

01:16:53.480 - 01:17:07.440

When we got to New Orleans, we had the night out and could visit New Orleans. The three of us slept in the bridal suite. That was all the hotel had, so we got the bridal suite. Three women.

01:17:09.160 - 01:17:23.780

Then we came back on the train, and there were no seats. We had our parachutes and everything else with us. What we did was, because there was just no other place, you just put your parachute down on the aisle and went to sleep.

01:17:25.560 - 01:17:39.460

In those days, if you weren't elderly or something like that, the men kept their seat, because they were going home to see their girls or what have you. The train was just full. There were just no seats.

01:17:40.800 - 01:17:52.740

Kelly: Why did you have a parachute with you? Ridgell: Because we had been delivering planes to New Orleans. So you brought your parachute back. Oh yeah.

01:17:53.020 - 01:18:13.760

Now tell me about your friend coming down to see you. Well he came down and we didn't decide anything at that time, but he came down and we took us out to dinner, two of us, three of us. I think he only spent one night or two nights at the most.

01:18:16.200 - 01:18:41.100

Do you recall how you felt and how were you notified that the WASPs were going to be disbanded? I wasn't notified. I read it in the paper. Somebody sent it to me, the article, and it was in the summer.

01:18:42.600 - 01:19:15.080

went on to state the whole thing, and that they were going to be disbanded. So when we weren't doing anything, just sitting there—they had plenty of pilots to do the work that was for this field—I resigned and went back to the FBI. I felt that I was still one to help the war effort.

01:19:15.180 - 01:19:33.460

But this was in September of '44. And of course, everything was over then. I mean, everybody knew about it then. And then I went back to the FBI until I resigned and was married.

01:19:36.640 - 01:19:50.480

Why do you feel that the Wasps were disbanded? What was your understanding? Ruth: We were winning the war at this point, I think. In the beginning, we lost so many wonderful young men as pilots.

01:19:51.460 - 01:20:19.000

We were winning the war and we were not losing as many pilots. So that all the training that they were doing, we had more pilots than we actually needed. I think that the men who were training the women and the men who were training the excess pilots, the instructors, were going to have to go to war too, but they wouldn't go as

01:20:19.100 - 01:20:44.180

pilots. I think they disbanded the women in order to make room for the men at that time. Is there anything else about your duty at Spence that you'd like to talk about? Ruth: No, I think we used to put a lot of slow time on engines.

01:20:44.980 - 01:21:02.620

We put any engine that had to be repaired, we had to fly it and test it before the cadets could fly it. We ferried planes and we ferried equipment and mail to Eglin. One of them actually carried a priest someplace, and I cannot remember.

01:21:03.520 - 01:21:17.860

But we did all kinds of different jobs to begin with, and we felt we were doing a good job. So, okay, you want to go ahead and change? Sure.

01:21:18.220 - 01:21:27.540

Okay, change the tape. How you doing, Jackie? Boy. Catherine Lawrence?

01:21:27.920 - 01:21:32.940

Pardon? Catherine Lawrence? The girl that was killed? Oh, it's on the...

01:21:32.940 - 01:21:54.600

Yeah, that's the girl. Where did you go? You went back to Washington? No, I went to Baltimore. They were in desperate need for help, so I felt pretty good then. So then you went back to work for the FBI?

01:21:54.680 - 01:22:05.700

Yeah. Was that the FBI in Baltimore or Washington? Yes, and I was only a stenographer. That was all I was doing.

01:22:06.980 - 01:22:19.300

Some people, when you say FBI, they think that you're an agent. No, I was strictly clerical. Did you live at home? Yes.

01:22:20.340 - 01:22:32.380

Did you ever have a desire to be an agent? Would that have been possible for a lady? I knew I did not have the education. You had to be an agent in those days.

01:22:32.380 - 01:22:47.400

You had to be an accountant or a lawyer. They only paid them $3,000 a year. Did you live at home? Yes, until I was married.

01:22:47.860 - 01:23:01.220

I went back home. How long did you work then before you were married? It was two or three, four months, something like that. Did your husband have a job in that area?

01:23:01.480 - 01:23:20.780

Yes, he was with his father who had the company, and he was 4F, so he said, "I've been around the world and out in the Pacific for two or three trips, so I'm just going to go to work for my father." What was he doing when he went around the world? Merchant Marine. Merchant Marine?

01:23:21.720 - 01:23:43.460

I think he got on in Washington State, and they went all around, and ended up in Baltimore. Kelly: Tell me about your wedding. Roslyn: Very simple. My family was there, and my friend from college was there, and that was all, his family and

01:23:43.480 - 01:23:55.220

my family. We had won the war with Germany, but we were still fighting with Japan. Kelly: Was the wedding in your home? Rothenberg: No, it was in the church.

01:23:55.260 - 01:24:02.140

Kelly: Okay. Did you have a formal gown? Rothenberg: No. [Laughter]

01:24:02.140 - 01:24:19.720

Kelly: Had you met his parents? Rothenberg: Yes, I had met his parents. Kelly: After you got married, then what did you do? Well, he worked for his father, and I immediately became pregnant and had our first daughter,

01:24:20.530 - 01:24:42.340

our only daughter. After that, I worked with him. I had some accounting and secretarial, so I could do lots of things. I worked in the office for him.

01:24:42.390 - 01:25:02.300

>> Okay. And then what's the age difference between your children then? >> Three years between my daughter and my oldest son. And about 12 years between that son and this son.

01:25:02.570 - 01:25:21.840

>> Wow. Tell me how you were involved with your children when they were small, growing up? Well, I knew where they all were all the time. They didn't know it necessarily, but I knew where they were.

01:25:23.640 - 01:25:41.060

And you know the thing that bothers me to this day, although it was good in one respect, it wasn't good in another. I told our oldest son, "Never ride with anybody. I don't want to ever catch you and I'm going to be around the block.

01:25:42.080 - 01:25:59.480

So if you get in, I'll know it." And he never, he refused rides with the different families and what have you. He wouldn't do it. But I thought later, suppose he had needed my help and he thought I was around the block.

01:26:01.000 - 01:26:19.560

And that has worried me ever since. But I do believe it was good, because he never ever got in. He was a little fellow going to kindergarten and elementary school, but of course we did not live that far away, and he liked to walk.

01:26:21.120 - 01:26:39.960

But it has bothered me. Edna: Were your children into sports? Our daughter was swimming. Our oldest son was an international springboard diver and tower diver.

01:26:42.000 - 01:27:00.920

Charlie, our youngest son, was quarterback of his high school football team. Did his mom and dad attend those games? Absolutely. We never missed much.

01:27:02.540 - 01:27:27.160

Tell me why you think it's important for parents to be involved with their children's activities. I think it's important that they know that you're interested in what they are doing. If they're doing something extra, which most activities are extra, you can go and they appreciate your being there and you can help them.

01:27:31.480 - 01:27:48.460

The more you learn, the farther you go in this world. If I could say to any, either boy or girl, but particularly girls, don't lose sight of your goal. Always have a goal.

01:27:48.660 - 01:28:03.980

This is what I want to do, whether it's just finish high school, whether it's just do this, and then you have another goal. And then I want to finish college, or I want to learn the computer. And when you finish that goal, have another goal.

01:28:04.520 - 01:28:30.800

But don't quit until you finish that particular goal you're working on. In this world, it seems to me, that if you're prepared for the opportunity, whatever it may be, when it presents itself, you can grab it and go ahead. But if you don't prepare yourself, the opportunity is there, but it passes you by for somebody

01:28:30.880 - 01:28:50.720

else. Have a goal, shoot for it. When the children were growing up, did you ever have a full-time job, or were you just working with your husband?

01:28:50.900 - 01:29:18.360

I always worked with the company, but it wasn't a full-time job, but it was everything. Right. And then once the children left home, what did you do? I was still there. But of course, they never left home, because I had a young one rather late. Right. But eventually you did get into a business, did you not, you and your husband?

01:29:19.420 - 01:29:45.980

We were in the business the whole time, food distribution. And we had the restaurants, and we had the fast foods, and we had as a basis was the food distribution company. A small Cisco or something like that. Kelly: When the children were growing up, did you have other volunteer things that you

01:29:46.080 - 01:29:58.460

did outside of taking care of them? Rosenstein: No, no. I did church work. I was secretary and treasurer and what have you, and the women's auxiliary and what

01:29:58.460 - 01:30:16.780

have you. Basically, I was home. I can't say we weren't social, but that's not the word I mean. We were not active in golf or all these other different things.

01:30:16.980 - 01:30:25.280

If our son was swimming, we were there. Who was interested in tennis? I got that. That was a funny one.

01:30:26.520 - 01:30:53.600

I love tennis. I went out and they asked. They had a tennis court where I lived, and they didn't have anybody to play, and there was one really good woman. I beat she and her husband, I mean the other player and I. They gave me this, and they said, "I heard the whispering.

01:30:53.880 - 01:31:05.860

She was a professional, wasn't she? Didn't she do professional tennis? I loved tennis and I played, but nothing. But it was funny.

01:31:07.860 - 01:31:32.480

Now, at this point in your life, what do you do to keep busy? I decided that I didn't want to lose what little brains I have left. They say if you don't use them, you lose them. So I decided to get into real estate, and I am now in real estate.

01:31:33.700 - 01:31:53.060

Did you have to go back to school? Yes, you always have, and every two years you have to renew your license. Is your husband involved with you? No, he backs me though. He rides around with me and he's sure I get to work on time.

01:31:56.420 - 01:32:25.860

I noticed outside your house there are all these sailboats and other boats. Have either of you, have you been interested in boating since he got out of the Merchant Marines? Well, we had a boat before we moved here and then we've had three boats since. But Sam has had so many operations, and he would get tired before we'd get to the inlet.

01:32:26.840 - 01:32:41.240

And although Charlie would run the boat for him, he was concerned that he would hurt himself, fall, or something like that. So we sold the boats. Kelly: So now you can just sit and enjoy them.

01:32:45.240 - 01:33:01.480

Jackie, today, what makes you happy? I'm happy when my children are happy and my husband is happy. In your lifetime, as in all lifetimes, there are good times and bad and happy times and sad times.

01:33:02.220 - 01:33:25.900

What has gotten you through those sad times? Some of them have been pretty hard. And I think there are a couple of reasons. You know, you have faith in God and you understand you're at this time in life, you know that

01:33:25.960 - 01:33:43.140

we're all going to leave this world. And it's that faith in Him, I think, more than anything else that pulls you through the tough times. Kelly: Tell me about your grandchildren.

01:33:43.760 - 01:33:57.900

Beall: I have two, a grandson and a granddaughter. The granddaughter is considering going for her master's and Ph.D. in psychology. She's got her B.A. She's 22 years old.

01:33:59.100 - 01:34:20.700

Our grandson loves to write and draw, but he'd make a wonderful salesperson. He's sharp and fast as he can be. And I don't know whether he's going to turn out to do sales or not, but I wish he would. But he just loves drawing and loves writing.

01:34:22.560 - 01:34:33.880

So who knows? >> Right. Do you have family gatherings at this point, reunions? >> We try to get together, those that are here in Florida, as much as we can.

01:34:35.020 - 01:34:50.660

Our oldest son is still in Richmond and he's had two heart attacks so he can't come down as often as he would like. Is that going to wake Sam up? You're wired.

01:34:50.880 - 01:34:56.040

Tell me where it is and I'll get it. That's what I told her. Boy, am I glad we came here. She has good answers.

01:34:56.840 - 01:35:05.500

I'm rolling. Okay. Let me ask you, Jackie, what is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? I think that she was wonderful.

01:35:08.120 - 01:35:26.760

We were so fortunate to have her. I don't think anybody else could have coped with the Pentagon and with the people that she had to work with than somebody like Jacqueline Cochran. I'm just internally grateful to her.

01:35:28.420 - 01:35:49.360

What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? I haven't thought about it. I think it should be remembered, and I think the only way it can be done is if we do something to do it, because so few people are aware of it.

01:35:53.620 - 01:36:04.920

I know that they call us pioneers. I never thought of myself as a pioneer, though. But they call us pioneers. But I think women ought to be--

01:36:04.920 - 01:36:20.080

and I think they are more so today than ever before aware of the fact that they can do almost anything they want to do if they just don't lose their womanhood. I mean, we're women, and that's it.

01:36:20.420 - 01:36:35.300

We can't change. And if we don't lose that in order to accomplish something, we can keep that and still go forward. - Is there anything that I have left out?

01:36:36.160 - 01:36:47.140

Anything in your life that you would like to talk about? - No, but there's so much that I wish I could have remembered it all. I have been very, I want to say that I have,

01:36:47.660 - 01:37:02.180

I have been very fortunate physically and I have been very fortunate to have a wonderful family, a husband who's just great, and my children all. I'm a very fortunate person.

01:37:03.880 - 01:37:12.560

- You're a lovely lady. - No, no, I'm just a very fortunate person. Thank you. - We can't thank you enough for doing this,

01:37:12.600 - 01:37:23.260

and I can't thank you enough for being the commander of my class. (both laughing) - Well, I thought that was important. - Yeah, that was important.

01:37:23.380 - 01:37:33.940

- I really did. I didn't know who was for our class. And I just thought it was important that somebody, that you could relate to somebody.

01:37:34.540 - 01:37:45.020

- She must not have been as outstanding as you are because I have never forgotten your name, Jackie Lake. Never. And I thank you for that.

01:37:45.340 - 01:37:55.320

- You know, were you in flight one or flight two? - Flight one. Do you remember what you gave me? I remember we gave you something, but I don't remember what it was.

01:37:55.520 - 01:37:59.580

Oh, it's in the other room. It's the bracelet. Oh, okay. Yeah.

01:38:00.200 - 01:38:19.280

I remember. We all loved you. You were such a wonderful role model for us, and I thank you for not fouling up. But you were, as I say, I don't believe anybody in my flight has ever forgotten you.

01:38:19.660 - 01:38:27.160

Really? Really. That's being very honest. Well, I just thought it was very important, and I liked everybody that was there.

01:38:28.100 - 01:38:31.840

You were a great role model. Thank you. And I thank you. Thank you.

01:38:32.160 - 01:38:39.320

Do you have anything, Nancy? No, I just wondered what kind of restaurant it was. What kind of restaurants? Most of them were seafood.

01:38:44.180 - 01:39:04.980

They stood in lines for the one in Richmond. There was one in Raleigh and one in Hampton, Virginia. But we couldn't be there. They had managers, and in those days, the '70s, they were just beginning to train managers

01:39:04.980 - 01:39:18.560

for restaurants in college. We were just a little too soon for those, but up until we sold it. What was it called, Jackie? The Flying Cloud.

01:39:21.760 - 01:39:38.060

Were they all named the same thing? No. The one that Stern is in that picture was called the Hispaniola. The other one was called the Flying Cloud in Raleigh, and they all had these wonderful

01:39:40.700 - 01:40:02.100

nautical things in them. We made a cannon of all iron sides, only not as big, but smaller, but it was an exact duplicate and fired it. This was a cannon maker down in Virginia that did it.

01:40:02.480 - 01:40:14.380

What was your favorite piece, nautical piece, in all the restaurants? In all the restaurants? Yes. Oh, dear, I never even thought of it like that.

01:40:14.940 - 01:40:31.520

I think my husband loves his pictures here, and we have quite a few of them from Jack Woodson. A nautical piece, I don't know. I never thought of it that way.

01:40:31.640 - 01:40:44.680

We had everything you have on a ship. What about the ship's wheel that you have in the back? What about it? I was going to ask you if you could tell me about it, where it came from.

01:40:45.340 - 01:41:00.340

That was Newport News. It was where they dismantled ships. They had all these things there, and my husband went and bought a lot of things from different shipyards around in that area that had dismantled ships.

01:41:01.260 - 01:41:12.160

We had a whole room full. Let me see if I can show you. I'm going to turn this off, but we want to say thank you before I turn it off. Thank you.

01:41:13.860 - 01:41:22.780

You were just wonderful to come. You're so sweet. No, who else would do this? You're just wonderful.

01:41:26.760 - 01:41:57.240

I want you to know I have a degree in hotel and restaurant management. want to hire me. I wish we had known it. Yeah I didn't get it until '79. Well it was too late. Well sure. All right I walked into her office. I finally found it in the Pentagon. I walked in and I was on time of course and I said how do you do and so on so and so and I was in civilian clothes

01:41:57.240 - 01:42:15.460

because we didn't have the uniform at that time. And she said, "Step back." So I said, "Step back." You know, and she said, her secretary, she said, "Well, how does she look?" She said, "She looks all right." She said, "Next time you have that suit clean,

01:42:16.000 - 01:42:26.940

don't let them put a crease in the sleeve." Of course, in those days, only men wore suits to a great degree, and they just put this... (laughing)

01:42:27.300 - 01:42:33.600

- And who was this? - Jacqueline Cochran did this. And I just, she's just wonderful. She really is.

01:42:33.760 - 01:42:37.420

She's a wonderful person. - And she took you to lunch? - Yes. - Where did you go?

01:42:37.640 - 01:42:43.560

- Pentagon. I don't know where in the Pentagon, but we went to the Pentagon for lunch. - Were there just the two of you?

01:42:44.420 - 01:42:54.900

- Her secretary went also. Or assistant, I really didn't know whether it was an assistant or a secretary. But she was delightful and just as nice as she could be.

01:42:55.520 - 01:43:00.000

- What a nice experience. - It was. (laughing) - I give up.

01:43:00.380 - 01:43:12.160

- Okay, all right, go ahead, ask your question. - Okay, Jackie, of all the things that you have ever done, what is the one thing that you're most proud of, aside from having your family?

01:43:14.320 - 01:43:27.020

- I think the WASP. You know, I've done lots of things in between, but I'm proud of the fact that I was a WASP. - And what makes you proud to have been a WASP?

01:43:28.380 - 01:43:42.900

- I'm proud because it was a wonderful organization, promoted by Jekyll and Cochran. You had to work to accomplish it. And when you were through,

01:43:43.560 - 01:44:00.100

you knew that you were doing something for our war effort, for World War II. And that's what it was all about. It was fun for me to fly, but by having fun myself, I was also helping the war effort.

01:44:01.440 - 01:44:05.180

Good girl. Okay. Absolutely. Good answer.

01:44:05.360 - 01:44:11.740

Good answer. You get points for that. Yes, yes, absolutely. The trainee and the wasp.

01:44:11.740 - 01:44:17.640

We need salmon. Well, we'll get the trainee and the wasp here. Yeah. Bring back old memories.

01:44:36.080 - 01:44:47.940

Oh, it's fine, that's fine. Okay, girls. I'm going to go one, two, three. Oh, okay.

01:44:52.040 - 01:46:26.420

Okay, I'm going to go one, two, three, again. Four, five. [laughter] I remember that because I've never seen a stranger

01:46:26.460 - 01:47:29.540

walk with just little hands, and they were walking like this. I remember that was a surprise. They do. We can have a dog.

01:47:29.860 - 01:47:36.280

They do. But you have to go a long way to walk it. Our son and our daughter bring their dogs over.

01:47:38.200 - 01:47:44.520

They have to keep kids. You have to go walk it. Unless you have one you can train to go in the litter box.

01:47:46.360 - 01:47:52.980

Little dogs you can train to go in the litter boxes. But you keep it out there. They'll keep it because they don't cover it up.

01:47:53.280 - 01:47:59.700

So you keep it out there. Can you picture this wheel in here? Sure, big wheel. I think that's pretty cool.

01:48:01.460 - 01:48:35.800

I'm going to put that with all the things about Jack. Pardon? I'm going to put that with all the things about Jack. �

01:48:49.740 - 01:49:23.120

(audience chattering) [Audience member] He has a problem here. [Audience member] That's okay. You tell him. I will put some of the pictures online when we get home. Usually I do it as we go on the trip, but my computer crashed, so I'm going to have to wait until I get home.

01:49:23.760 - 01:49:31.680

[Audience member] You'll get a lot of them. [Audience member] Yeah. Did you take this? No, I didn't take that. I wanted to do it all out so I could take it.

01:49:32.200 - 01:49:42.740

Oh, she's taking a lot of pictures. Oh, I've got plenty of them. That's okay. This little, I left that there so you could see.

01:49:42.760 - 01:49:51.240

That's neat. Did you sell that whole unit? No, a unit. And that's a picture of it. It's going to flash.

01:49:53.240 - 01:50:01.540

I didn't want it to flash. Now I don't want it to flash. That's neat. What we try to do now, when an article comes out,

01:50:02.300 - 01:50:18.840

immediately I write to the editor and say, please have a copy of that, digital copy of that, and then I get it with pictures and everything and I don't have to take a picture of it, but we can just link to it and then I just make a copy of it and put it on our website. So it's been really great. We've

01:50:18.860 - 01:51:06.480

got New York Times articles from all over the country that they'll say, sure, you can do that. Page 10B. Army kept women's role out of view. The best kept secret of World War II. Kept them out of view. World War II. Hey, write another rap song. Thank you. I think I got a picture of everything else. Thank you for doing that, for getting those

01:51:06.500 - 01:51:30.260

out. Oh, thank you for coming. Oh, here, you get a bumper sticker. Here's your door prize here. You get a bumper sticker and you get a little pin, but we don't have any wasp pins, so we got Air Force. That's the new Air Force logo. I called the recruiter for the U.S. Air Force in Waco and said, "I'm going to be visiting with about 20 wasps.

01:51:30.520 - 01:51:51.260

Do you know who the wasps are?" "No." He was a recruiter for the Air Force. And so I told him what we were doing. He said, "What can I do to help? What do you need?" I said, I need some pens. He said, okay, how many do you need? So that's where those came from. Thank you. Isn't that nice? Yeah. Well we made those, we made the bumper stickers. Yeah, bumper stickers.

01:51:52.260 - 01:52:13.480

Yeah, those are one of the guys that's the one of the head of an art department at Baylor did the logo for us. Is there anything I can do for you? Can I? No, Jackie, I've got it. You don't even, you don't have to come down again. You can stay up here. Oh, you're sure? Yeah, we're fine. because mom's gonna carry her stuff and I'm gonna roll this already in the car

01:52:37.140 - 01:53:16.180

I'll just edit her from here. I'll just do what No girls play bass and I never saw a thing about it. I just thought it was neat. I wanted to play something. I didn't want to stand there and have to dance.

01:53:17.240 - 01:53:31.300

I didn't like to dance so I learned to play the bass. But you have a mirror for music. Yeah, I got that from I guess both my parents. My dad could pretty much play anything he wanted to on the piano. He never took a lesson.

01:53:31.300 - 01:53:47.880

She went on the road with the kids and they went all over the world singing and dancing to the kids. I love that, yeah. I should have found myself a really good one at that point. You know you're going to see it then.

01:53:49.120 - 01:53:58.460

What's the matter with you? I was dating a guy from high school that I had dated. I dated him for seven years. No, that's the way it goes.

01:53:59.500 - 01:54:28.220

That's okay. seven years you couldn't tell before then well it was on and off again okay I would yes it's going to be in um

01:54:37.800 - 01:55:51.180

Okay [wind] It's [unclear dialogue]

01:56:02.840 - 01:56:14.680

I got so confused. It's down to our blues. Well, I think sometimes you don't hear the whole thing. You hear maybe the first part, but you're trying to figure out, oh my gosh, I've got to talk to you.

01:56:15.000 - 01:56:29.880

Right. But, you know, so I'm a... [unclear] So I didn't want to answer it.

01:56:57.720 - 01:59:33.660

[unclear dialogue] And we'll stop as soon as we see a... ...a vehicle for... ...I don't know.

01:59:43.320 - 01:59:56.780

Alright, where are you going to take us? Highway 716. Uh-uh. Uh-uh.

01:59:57.280 - 02:00:01.180

No, no, no. You go back to where you were. I want to see. Exit.

02:00:02.860 - 02:00:12.680

No, this is taking us to the turnpike. No, let's just go up to one. Want me to turn you off? No, we'll go to one.

02:00:13.200 - 02:00:24.220

Make a recalculate. Go to one and go north. We'll get you to one. We'll get you to one.

02:00:25.300 - 02:00:30.140

[unintelligible] No this is one. This is one. Ok, we've got to go south.

02:00:31.140 - 02:00:39.140

[unintelligible talking] We've got to go south? Oh, I'm sorry. We don;t know it. I'm just thinking we're up here at steep.

02:00:39.440 - 02:00:53.480

Ok, we're not. Ok, we're on the beach. [cont. 5.5 miles north and turn left] [Ambient sound]

02:00:55.740 - 02:01:33.620

Drive 5.5 miles and turn left. [Ambient sound] [unclear] I wonder what that city is way over there.

02:01:34.400 - 02:01:49.140

See that sweet city? [unclear] Yeah, yeah. [unclear - muffled]

02:02:00.900 - 02:02:14.160

[Sounds of waves] [Street noise]