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I'm Deanie Parrish and we're in the home of Helen Round in Hamlin, Louisiana. She's in WASP class 43W2. Today is the 8th of August, 2000. Okay, Helen, if you would just start off by telling us who you are, where you were born, and when, and so forth. I'm Helen Round. I was born in La Ronge, Louisiana, November the 27th, 1920.

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Born in the country with a midwife rather than with a doctor because the doctor couldn't get there in November. Weather was bad, the roads were horrible, and the doctor got there the next day, finally, after they had sent word by messenger and horse and buggy to go get him. And so I was raised on a farm until I moved to Hamlin in 1932.

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Okay, on this farm, Helen, what did your dad raise? We had a horse, or several horses and cows, and we raised feed for the cows. Of course, there were very few, when it's such a thing, I don't think it's a tractor, you use all horse or mule for the work on the farm.

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Out on that farm, did you have a special animal that was yours? I had a horse. What was your horse's name? Do you remember? Don't remember, except he was all white with a black head.

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If you rode him at night, they called it the ghost horse, because all they saw was the white, the headless horse. No, no, no, no, just keep talking, I don't want to mess with my car. And then, in growing up, were you still on the farm when you started school? Oh, yes.

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Okay, tell me about going to school. Did you ride a bus? As such, my folks took me with a horse and buggy, actually, to where I could catch a bus, which was like an open pickup with just a canvas cover over the back of it that we rode in. And, very primitive, but it did muddy roads, and when that wouldn't go, well, we'd find some other way to get there.

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And in going to this school, how large was the school? Quite small. In other words, it was one grade, one class each grade, at the time that I went. Now, then, this same school, I think, has four or five sections of each grade, but at that time, there was only one section. At that time, did this school pull children from surrounding areas?

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Yes. Were there school buses, per se, or were they... They were privately owned, and the parents paid them. I mean, they weren't public. What are your earliest recollections about going to school?

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Earliest recollection, or one of the things, was the fact that, I think along about fourth grade, my teacher's name was Helen, and there were three other Helens in the room. So that made five Helens in the same room. Do you remember what you enjoyed about school when you were in elementary?

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No, I don't really think of anything particular. I think it was probably the companionship of the children, of the other children, because at home, you see, I didn't have anybody. I was the only child, and didn't have any near neighbors with children. So I think that was probably the most interesting part of it.

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Do you remember, was this one teacher named Helen, was she a particular teacher that you remember, or was there another teacher that you were fond of? She probably is one of the ones I remember better than the rest. Still know her, and she's still alive.

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And then when you finished elementary school, was that through the sixth grade, or did elementary go all the way there? Elementary went all the way through high school there. Okay. But you see, I transferred in the sixth grade.

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Midterm of the sixth grade, I transferred to Hammond. To Hammond. Did you move, physically move? Yes, we physically moved. My father gave up the farm.

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There wasn't, I mean, when they, and he started working with the dairy processing plant that was out there that moved to Hammond. And so with that, the family moved to Hammond. What effect did that have on you? Did you get to bring your horse with you? No, no, the horse, I think the horse had died before that happened.

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Right, and growing up in elementary school, were your grandparents a part, by the part of your family? Yes, my, on my maternal side. My mother's parents lived close by. My father's parents were in Indiana.

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You know, I was the only southerner in my family. My mother's folks were from Wisconsin, and her two brothers went back to Wisconsin after they found out how poor it was out in that country. And, but her folks had sold everything to come out down there. They built it up as a big, you could have fruit trees and, and, and grow vegetables and all the stuff that you could do.

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And it didn't work out. It wasn't true. It was very poor land, and the breezes came and froze all the citrus trees. And so it was kind of a hard, hard going. Sure, but my mother's parents stayed, and, but my father's parents had bought the place that I lived in out in La Ronger, and where I was born and all.

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And they had bought it and stayed down here less than a year, I think, before they said that was a no-no, because they'd kept their place in Indiana to their farm up there. So they went back to that farm and left him with the one down there, down here to run. When you were growing up as a smaller child, what was a Christmas like at your home?

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We had the tree, a tree with the real candles and the real, that you lit with the match and all. We didn't have electricity on the farm. I didn't have electricity anyplace until I got to Hampton, the sixth grade. Would your grandparents spend Christmas with you, or would you go to their home?

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We would probably both ways, both ways. Since you didn't have electricity, did you have running water? Not really. We had a gasoline, I mean a pump that was pumped with gas.

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But most of the time I can remember going out in the old hand pump. Right. And for children who are watching this 50 years from now-- They won't even know what a hand pump is to get water out of a well. There just aren't any of them in existence.

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In fact, I don't know of any place, even around here now, that you could go and pump water with a pump. Right. And without running water, your showers were taken in what? A tub, in the kitchen on Saturday night. The rest of it was spit baths, I guess.

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Right. And the bathrooms were-- Outside. Outside, okay. Then when you got into, moved into Hammond--

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We had running water and electricity. And in your, say, which would be junior high school years, what were you looking forward to as far as what you would do after you graduated from high school? Being a teacher. My mother had been a teacher, and more or less the family,

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and I just took it for granted I would be a teacher. And do you remember any special teachers in the junior high area and high school that influenced you? Oh, there were several. One was--this Hammond High School was named after,

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after she passed away, the Annie Eastman High School was named after her. And she was the chemistry teacher. And if you didn't pay attention or didn't pay close attention or study and get your lessons, she thought nothing of sitting you in the corner.

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But you got her--I mean, she got your attention in a hurry. She also lived across the street from me, so she knew all my activities when I was in school. What was your favorite subject in high school? Until I was discouraged by a teacher, it was math.

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Why did she discourage you? Because he--I think it was after discouraging any woman there or any gal that wanted to do math or thought they could. Anyway, I was discouraged there, but I did go on and take all the basic math courses

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when I went to college then, I mean all the ones I needed. And then after I finished college and was in the Berry Command, that's what I went back. They had social studies teachers and were a dime a dozen. So I went back and qualified, took all math courses to qualify to teach math in the high school level.

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So that's what--I did that while I was--probably while I was expecting children. During high school, were there other activities you were interested in besides studying? Were there drama classes or art classes? I was not artistic or clever in any way.

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Not athletics? No, I was not athletic. I was the ugly duckling. I was not athletically inclined.

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What did you do for fun during high school? I worked. Where did you work? I worked at--let's see, when I was fourteen, one of the department stores,

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I mean one of the stores then would let you work. I went to work for twelve and a half cents an hour, ten hours on Saturday for a dollar and a quarter. And what did you do with your money? Well, it went a long ways.

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I probably bought some things that my folks couldn't afford to buy. And then I think the year later when I became fifteen, then Woolworth's would hire me. So I went to Woolworth's, and then from Woolworth's I went to J.C. Penny's, and I worked at stores all the while I was in the university.

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I finished--let's see, I finished Southeastern when I was seventeen. When you were growing up, did you have summer vacations? Did you go places other than Hammond during the summer for vacation? Just places.

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My dad had a little boat, and we'd go down on the river and go fishing and things like that. And of course I spent a summer in Indiana with my grandparents up there, and then some of the times I had aunts and uncles in Wisconsin. So I'd travel, go up there.

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Thirty-three went to the World's Fair in Chicago and things like that. We usually had something going on. What was that like to be able to go to the World's Fair? Oh, that was wonderful.

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Fortunately I had an aunt and uncle that lived in a suburb of Chicago, so we could go and stay there in the I.C. Railroad. You see, it runs from Hammond right straight to Chicago. So I'd take the railroad, and my mother and I went.

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Do you remember one thing that stands out about that fair that really impressed you? The Believe It or Not exhibit, I think, was one of the things that fascinated me. I couldn't believe all the things that they did. After you were in high school, were there any social activities?

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Did you have a prom when you were a senior? Yes. Did you attend the prom? Yes.

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Did you have a date for the prom, or was it kind of everybody just went? Everybody in those days just sort of went. I mean, you went as a group. There were a group of us that traveled together.

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Guys and gals and all, and this business like they do now, having to have tuxedos and fancy--we had maybe a pretty dress or something, but it was one you could wear to church. But as far as fancy clothes and all that, those were depression years,

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and you just had to get by on what you could. I mean, all the kids were in the same boat, so to speak. You didn't have any rich ones or anybody else, so everybody hung together. Of course, I mean, lots of times if we could get a hold of a quarter for a quarter,

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we could pool our money and get gas for a truck and money for hot dogs and buns and Coca-Colas and go out on a river bank and go swimming and have a bonfire and that sort of thing. And we did that almost every week, it seems like, weather permitting.

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That's the sort of activities that we could afford to do. You said something about a church dress. Did you attend church? Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

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Which church? Methodist. When you graduated from high school, what was your graduation like? What do you mean? Was it just a regular?

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Was it in an auditorium? Yes, because the school had an auditorium, and it was in the auditorium. We just marched in. We did have caps and gowns. Oh, that's special.

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Yeah, we had special. We did have caps and gowns. So from the time you were in high school, you knew that you would go on to college. Oh, yes. I mean, that was understood. My folks never let me think of anything else.

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When you started college-- You didn't even think about getting married in those days, before you had some way of making a living. And in those days, what were girls expected to do?

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What kind of jobs were they expected to get when they graduated from college? Mainly teaching or office or working stores or mostly-- I mean, best of my recollection, either they went on to be doctors or lawyers or something on that order, which were specialized,

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or if you could only make the four years and felt like you were lucky to do that, well, you either went on--I mean, there weren't very many places you could go. You could be a teacher or you could work in an office. While you were in college, what was the most special thing about going to college to you?

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Meeting and being with people from different places, I think, and to know-- Do you have one favorite professor that encouraged you or discouraged you in college? No, I think all of them tried to encourage you to go on and do better. In fact, they were, in those days, interested in the students and tried to help you.

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They really did. Of course, I knew a lot of--I mean, several of the ones--I don't know a lot-- but several of the ones that I--my favorites, of course, were ones that I knew in church and my parents knew and that sort of thing.

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While you were in college, did you have one special boy that you were interested in? Or did you-- Not really. --sit in a circle?

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Not really. I went with several. Your social activities when you were in college, did they mainly revolve around your church or--? Church activities, church and some school activities. Okay.

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When you graduated from college, then what did you do? Well, I applied for job teaching, and the best one I was offered was one about 50 miles north of here, Osaka, Mississippi, just across the line.

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They were going to pay me all of $65 a month, which I thought, "Well, I can handle that, maybe, if I can come home every weekend, catch a bus and come home every weekend," because the Greyhounds were running fairly frequently in those days, back and forth.

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"I'll come home on Saturday and go back on Sunday. I'll live off of Mother and Dad on the weekends and the rest of the time." "Oh, no, you don't do that. You attend prayer meeting every Wednesday night,

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and you teach a Sunday school class, and you must be there three weekends of each month." I said, "Whoa." I'd been president of Wesley Foundation, which was our Methodist group on the university-- I mean, you know, in college, and worked with the group and traveled with them.

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I said, "Nope, nobody's going to dictate my religion to me, tell me what I have to do and what--that's out." So I had a friend that knew them that was a friend of the manager of New Orleans Airport, the old airport down there, the big one now.

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So I was telling him about it, and he said, "Well, let me get you an appointment to see him, and maybe he'll know something that's coming up," because he was in the National--the supervisor/director of the airport. The airport guy was also in this National Guard, so maybe some jobs will show up.

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And so that's when I went to the airport-- I mean, you know, went down there and started working on the airport, and that's where I met Edna Gardner White. - What year was this, Helen? - That was in '41.

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- Okay. And what did you start doing at the airport? - That's when I started working in the office of a colonel in the National Guard that was sent away and posed his office for him and then went to work at the sub-depot in the airport.

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But I built up some flying time for people. - When did you first become interested in airplanes or in flying airplanes? - Well, I was interested, and had followed some of it way back. I had a ride or two, an old trimotor, a Ford that came out here--

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a plane that came out here years ago. - How old were you? - I don't remember. I was in high school. I know that. My dad and I went. And my dad had wanted to learn to fly or tried to get into the Air Force in World War I,

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and his father would not sign the papers. So when I got the opportunity or the word for flying-- You see, I did a Civil Air Patrol civilian pilot training program at Southeastern. That's where I got my start.

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- Let's go back to that trimotor that you got to fly in. Do you remember how much it cost you to go up? - No. I have no recollection. - Do you remember the flight itself?

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- Yeah. All I know is it was noisy. [laughs] I can remember that about it. - Do you remember where you flew?

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- Just one circle around, like around town and back out to where we landed out there. - And from that time on? - Well, I had an interest in it, but didn't figure anything would come up until this program came up at the university.

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They were going to put a civilian pilot training program in, or a CPT program in, and then we're going to let 10 students could apply. One would be a woman, and the rest would be guys. And then we're going to have one start the program with that 10.

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And it got down--my best friend and I were the last women to be checked. The rest of them, I think, had given it up or didn't pass, and she had a hernia, and they wouldn't take her. So I went ahead, and they let me start it.

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So being the only one that was from Hammond--no, there was one guy from Hammond-- but they picked me up to do my flying at 7 o'clock in the morning. I'd be the first one because other students just lived on campus, and they couldn't make that early morning.

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So I'd go from my house to the airport in the morning and be the first one to fly. And the funny thing, I was the only woman on the campus that was allowed to wear pants or slacks to class. I had to have a special permit because look at how they're dressed now on campus. But no, they wouldn't even allow slacks or pants on campus,

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so I had the special permit because I went to fly, and I came in directly from there to class. What year was this in school? This was--I was a senior. I was beginning my senior year.

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I started flying in October of my senior year. And then how about ground school? Ground school was out here too, night class. How much of a flying time did the course require?

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Thirty-five hours. Eight to solo and then 35 past the test. Tell me about the first day you went up about your instructor. Do you remember who he was?

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Yeah. And about your first solo. What were you flying? I was flying a Luscombe Air.

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Tell me how that day evolved. Nobody knows. No same procedure. I was flying first thing in the morning, and I knew my time was about up.

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He just got out and said, "Go." Got out and said, "You're ready," and there weren't any spectators or anybody else around. What did your mother and dad think about your learning to fly? Well, as a mother, didn't know about it until I'd gone to New Orleans and passed the physical and everything else.

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Dad signed my papers. She wasn't very happy. I was already in and signed up before she was really aware of it. Being an only child, you see, and everything, she would --

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and she was very, very upset for a while because we'd had a beach craft just before that program began. A few months before that, a beach craft crashed out here at Mardi Gras time. Mardi Gras before this October starting to fly and killed everybody on board. We were heading for New Orleans for Mardi Gras.

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Hit bad weather here and crashed out on the river. Do you remember when you heard about Pearl Harbor? Yes, very well. I was in New Orleans, but I'd come home for that Sunday morning.

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We were at the lunch table and heard it on the radio. How do you think that changed the attitude of the American people as far as what they were going to do, as far as work? I think everybody, I mean, was going to do everything they could to cooperate and help the war effort. I mean, at that time, my father was working one job,

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but he went to work teaching in a trade school to help other people. Everybody pitched in some, I think. And how soon after that did you begin flying? After Pearl Harbor?

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Uh-huh. I already had my license. I got my license in '41. Let's see, I started in October, I think, either January or February of '41. And once you finished the CPT program, then what did you do as far as flying?

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Very little until I went to work on New Orleans Airport. I know you mentioned the Civil Air Patrol. I joined Civil Air Patrol and I did some work, but Civil Air Patrol came after. That was not--Civil Air Patrol was after the war started, I think.

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I'm pretty sure. Although I worked there, tried to work with Civil Air Patrol some on New Orleans Airport, too. I've got pictures of--I had pictures of that in the training. But it seems like that's when it first formed.

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In fact, it was because I couldn't have belonged. It was after war was declared in December because I didn't have a birth certificate. I had to get baptismal papers and everything to get a birth certificate even. Tell me what kind of missions you flew with Civil Air Patrol.

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What was their primary purpose? We were scouting the gulfs and the waterways looking for submarines for foreign aircraft--I mean foreign ships. Did you ever see anything that--

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I did not, but a lot of the ones that went out did see submarines and see them going up the canals. They were being refueled--German submarines were being refueled in our bios in Louisiana. They had people in there that had set up and stockpiled gas

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or whatever fuel they were using and all that. They knew what was going to happen before it even started. Years of planning had gone into that. You could find out.

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Were there other girls flying with you at the same time? You mean in the Civil Air Patrol? Well, Marion was in Civil Air Patrol at the same time I was. We were both in there, and others, yes, we had other girls.

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When did you first hear about women going into flying training for the Army Air Force? Actually, when I was in Fort Worth. I had gone up there, I think, in either September or October of that year. What were you doing? Why did you go to Fort Worth?

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Because Edna called me. She was instructing up there, then she left New Orleans and gone up there. She called me to come up there, said she had something I could do on the side as well as take some flying lessons.

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They had a place with some other gals up there, a house. They had a house and had a corner I could come stay there and travel with them. I didn't have to have a car, so I sold my car when I went up there. How did your mother feel about you leaving southern Louisiana?

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Well, at that time I was twenty-one. I don't think I asked her. I told her I had that opportunity. I went up there. There was going to be a chance for a better job. So anyway, they wanted me to go ahead and do it.

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Then while you were at Fort Worth? Well, that's when I heard about the training program. I hadn't really made up my mind. In November I got a message from Dad, a telegram,

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that Mother had to have a serious operation and to come home. I hadn't finished getting my commercial instructor's rating. About that time that day, they said Cochran was in Fort Worth interviewing for the WASP program.

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So I got to work with the help of some friends and got an appointment. I went up there before I came home and got the appointment. Then when I came home, I had the word to report the 20th of December, I guess. When you went over to do that interview,

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tell me about meeting Jacqueline Cochran, and what the feeling was you felt or what that interview was like. I guess more or less wanting to know how loyal or how interested you were in flying.

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They did not paint any rosy picture that it was going to be a life, you know, all fun and games. It was going to be a lot of hard work. The training would be long hours, and the pay would be minimal.

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So it wasn't anything, but if you wanted to fly, you'd have the opportunity. What was your impression of her? I don't really. I was probably a little awed, somewhat awed. On that particular day, did she tell you that you would be accepted,

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or did you have to wait? No. After that, then I had physicals. I went on through the physicals. What, Meacham Field had a base or someplace over there had a--

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where the military, where they put me through the eye tests and all the tests and everything, took blood. From that interview, then, you came back to Southern Louisiana? I came back home, and then I waited.

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I didn't know whether I was in or not until I received the notice to report to Houston. So you stayed in Southern Louisiana with your mom until you reported to Houston?

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Yes. Well, that was only, you see, the end of November and into December, until December the 20th. Had your mom gotten a lot better? Yes, yes, she had her operation, got along fine.

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How did you get from Hammond over to Houston to report? I think I took bus. Rayhon bus. I don't remember. Did anyone, any other girl go with you or were you by yourself?

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No, no, by myself. Did you know before you got to Houston whether or not you knew any girls who would be there? No, no.

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Tell me about when you got to Houston. Well, take that back. Another friend of mine went with me, had gotten in and went. Where was she from?

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She was from Lafitte, but she washed out after about three or four weeks. She didn't make the grade. Tell me about arriving in Houston, then what happened.

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Well, we had a certain place we were to meet and then assigned to these tourist courts, rooms in a tourist court. Because, you see, we didn't have any headquarters. I mean, we were flying at the airport,

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but any place to live or anything, the Houston crew didn't. And they housed us at-- Well, the first group was housed in one motel and we were housed in another motel.

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We took over the whole motel and we were assigned rooms and roommates and told that this cattle bus would pick us up. And that's literally what it was, was a cattle truck,

00:33:32.500 - 00:33:45.500

a great big old truck. They put tarpaulins by and had seats along this way, along the sides of it, and that's what we boarded to go to the airport at daylight in the morning, fog or no fog.

00:33:45.500 - 00:34:00.500

You went to the airport, you had ground school and some flew and some had ground school. And you were there until dark at night. Who was in charge of you?

00:34:00.500 - 00:34:19.500

As far as Deaton was the main one-- I mean, you know, as far as women were concerned. Tell me about your instructors. I don't remember too much about them except they were all good.

00:34:19.500 - 00:34:28.500

Were they civilians? Yes, yes, they were civilians. Civilian instructors all the way. All civilian airplanes for a while there.

00:34:28.500 - 00:34:44.500

We didn't get any BTs or AT-6s until about halfway through our program, I guess. Up until then, when we started out, we were flying basically just regular planes like we'd been flying.

00:34:44.500 - 00:35:02.500

In other words, Piper Cubs and Aramikas and that type. Yes, we started out. Then we got some--what do I want to say? The old bywing, Stearmans.

00:35:02.500 - 00:35:15.500

But most of when we started getting those, we didn't get new planes. Who was teaching the ground school courses? Were they civilians?

00:35:15.500 - 00:35:29.500

No. I know we had one, Flashman, that was military. We did our calisthenics and all that. It seems like he did some ground school,

00:35:29.500 - 00:35:44.500

but the rest of it I think was done by some-- did Marian remember on that? I don't remember on our instructors whether they were from that flying school

00:35:44.500 - 00:36:05.500

that was on the airport, over the Houston airport at the time or what. Because it was Houston Municipal Airport and we were with Aviation Enterprises Incorporated. I think they were overseeing the program, so to speak.

00:36:05.500 - 00:36:26.500

What did they tell you to expect if you made it through the program? That you'd be assigned to some place for Ferry Command. And why did America need women in the Ferry Command? Because there was a shortage of male pilots to go overseas

00:36:26.500 - 00:36:46.500

and for military, actually for active duty. And they needed somebody to take the planes from the factories to the schools and also some things on the training bases that women could do, like target. Well, later on--I don't believe any of them--

00:36:46.500 - 00:37:03.500

in fact, I know none of ours. The first two classes, we were strictly for Ferry Command. But later on, they started sending them to bases that told targets and did other things.

00:37:03.500 - 00:37:15.500

While you were in Houston, did some of your friends wash out? Oh, yes. Could you tell me how that made you feel? Made you wonder if you were going to be next.

00:37:15.500 - 00:37:30.500

Am I next for that? Is it going to happen to me? Why do you feel they were washed out? My friend was mainly physical.

00:37:30.500 - 00:37:54.500

She just couldn't take the activity physically. What was the biggest adjustment you had to make to live with these girls and fly with them every day? I can't think of any big adjustment.

00:37:54.500 - 00:38:14.500

I mean, go with the flow. I've always been a person that sort of let it go along with what comes. Do you remember any incidents that happened that were outstanding in your mind when you were in training?

00:38:14.500 - 00:38:25.500

Well, the girls got lost somewhere, and we were all wondering what happened. But so happened that she was put down in some pasture or someplace, and everything was safe. But, I mean, that kind of worried you.

00:38:25.500 - 00:38:40.500

But I don't think any of our girls were killed in training. Did you have cross-country flying? Oh, yes. Tell me about one of the trips.

00:38:40.500 - 00:38:59.500

I can't remember anything unusual. Just go ahead and fly and get there and get your logbook signed and check the plane and get on to the next one and make your triangle and get back.

00:38:59.500 - 00:39:13.500

What do you think the instructors were mainly teaching you? Safety. Safe pilots. Not to take chances.

00:39:13.500 - 00:39:27.500

Not any aerobatics or anything like that. Did you have a favorite instructor while you were in training? Did you remember? No, not really.

00:39:27.500 - 00:39:42.500

We had different instructors, but I don't think I had any favorite. What did you wear to fly in? Zoot suits. Which were?

00:39:42.500 - 00:40:05.500

Khaki, khaki and very unattractive. And we also wore the pants and shirts, slacks and shirts. Our group was not--we didn't have uniforms until much later. We would dress up or wear something.

00:40:05.500 - 00:40:19.500

We did have the khaki pants and white shirts, but we bought those ourselves. While you were there, did Jacqueline Cochran ever come in? Oh, yes. She was in several times.

00:40:19.500 - 00:40:32.500

How long were you in training? It was five months. Right at five months. In other words, I went in the 20th of December,

00:40:32.500 - 00:40:46.500

and it seems like I graduated in the latter part of May. Graduation. Graduation, well, we took the planes, you see. Our class graduated, actually, in Houston.

00:40:46.500 - 00:41:05.500

The ceremony was in Houston, but we flew the planes, the last of the planes from Houston up to Sweetwater. That ended the training at Houston. What kind of plane?

00:41:05.500 - 00:41:16.500

Did you fly one up? I don't remember whether it was an AT-6 or a BT-13. It was one like that, I think. So actually your advanced training was in AT-6s?

00:41:16.500 - 00:41:26.500

Yes, that was all the advance we had. Do you remember what was the graduation ceremony like? Did Cochran come? Oh, yes.

00:41:26.500 - 00:41:43.500

I think Cochran and Arnold were both there. It would say in our roster somewhere. I can't be quoted on that because I know they were there for the graduation of the first class at Ellington Field.

00:41:43.500 - 00:42:06.500

Both of them made it to our roster list, has a list of the dignitaries that were there for each class. When did you get your orders and what did they say? When we finished at Sweetwater, we got our orders from Sweetwater where to go.

00:42:06.500 - 00:42:13.500

Where did they tell you to go? Dallas. Did you have some time off? No.

00:42:13.500 - 00:42:25.500

How did you get from Sweetwater to Dallas? I think we took the train. I think that's how we got there. How did you get to Dallas?

00:42:25.500 - 00:42:31.500

Do you remember the choices that you had? Did you have a choice? Yes. What did you choose?

00:42:31.500 - 00:42:40.500

I chose Dallas. In all four spaces, first choice, second choice? No. [Laughter]

00:42:40.500 - 00:42:51.500

No, I wanted to be as near south as I could be. Okay. Did your family come to graduation? No.

00:42:51.500 - 00:43:10.500

When you were sent to Dallas, were some of your classmates sent with you? Yes. I think there were six or seven of us sent out of the class, maybe more to Dallas. When you got to Dallas, to whom did you report?

00:43:10.500 - 00:43:29.500

To Love Field. To what person? All right, Dauphine. Who was acting at--was it Florence, Florine Miller or Dauphine?

00:43:29.500 - 00:43:41.500

Or who was it that was acting as CO at-- I don't know. I wasn't there. I can't remember either.

00:43:41.500 - 00:43:50.500

But it was a WAF, right? It was a WAF. And how were you received when you got to Love Field? With welcome arms.

00:43:50.500 - 00:44:04.500

I mean, we didn't have any problems. We just got there and assigned to a barracks, barracks room. Did you have roommates there also? No, I don't--no, uh-uh.

00:44:04.500 - 00:44:20.500

We had private, our own room. And then what happened? Then you were checked out on--then you had to do check rides out on the ramp with the military. And you did your check rides.

00:44:20.500 - 00:44:31.500

And they started giving you orders, and away you went. What did they check ride you in when you got to Love, do you remember? No, I don't. I don't.

00:44:31.500 - 00:44:47.500

Probably an AT-6 or-- Because, you see, mainly we were flying--it started out we were flying the AT-6s out of-- what was the little town where they were building them there, near Dallas. We were flying them out of there.

00:44:47.500 - 00:45:01.500

Tell me about your first assignment. I don't even remember where to-- You see, we flew in flights to begin with. We had one of the ones that had been there before.

00:45:01.500 - 00:45:26.500

And then they'd be assigned--we went out in flights of three. And you got your orders. And one person filed all the reports and all, and you had a--went out like that. What did you take with you?

00:45:26.500 - 00:45:38.500

Probably as little as possible. You assigned your own parachute? Yeah, you had your own--you took your parachute, if nothing else. Parachute and briefcase.

00:45:38.500 - 00:46:02.500

There were a number of the planes that I flew that that's all I could have. Flew that PQ-13, that target ship, and that's all you took was your parachute and briefcase. You could have a shirt in your briefcase maybe with your papers in it. Sat on your parachute. You had a plywood seat, a plywood back in it.

00:46:02.500 - 00:46:18.500

Sat on your parachute and leaned back on your briefcase, and that was it. You had no clothes. Washed your underwear. You washed your underwear every night. Wherever you could find a place to sleep, underwear and socks.

00:46:18.500 - 00:46:37.500

Hoped it dried by morning. When you would get to an air base, wherever you were going to deliver this airplane, what would you do? After we were flying solo or while we were in the group, we didn't have to do anything. Whoever was captain of the flight or in charge of the flight did all the paperwork and everything.

00:46:37.500 - 00:47:04.500

But then when you started going out on your own, you had to report in to-- when you delivered the plane, you had to report in, get it signed, get a signed thing that it was delivered in good condition and then get your check in with your home base and see if they had further orders from that base or where you were to go next and whether you would come back to Love Field

00:47:04.500 - 00:47:25.500

or go someplace close and pick up another plane and go somewhere else. Which was very often the case. You might be out three or four weeks in a stretch. In other words, from one place you'd deliver and then you'd get word to go somewhere here and pick up another one and go over here and be a while before you got back home.

00:47:25.500 - 00:47:47.500

In case you went to one place and you didn't have further orders, how did you get back to Love Field? You could catch commercial airlines if possible. Did you have a priority? No.

00:47:47.500 - 00:48:16.500

Commercial airlines or bus or train or hitchhike military. If you came back commercial, did you have to check your parachute or did you keep it with you? You checked it. It was checked. And when you would get back to Love Field, were you required to fly within a certain period of time or did you have some time off?

00:48:16.500 - 00:48:37.500

You didn't have any time off. As soon as they had another plane ready to go, orders to deliver from here to there that we were qualified to fly, we were sent out again. You might have a day or two at home base but very seldom.

00:48:37.500 - 00:48:56.500

Did you have any social life while you were at Love Field? Did you have time off to do social life? Not really any time off. If you had a day or so that you didn't have orders, you could go downtown or you could go to the movies or the park or something like that.

00:48:56.500 - 00:49:16.500

But you didn't ever buy tickets for any show or anything like that. I'm talking about, you know, an upcoming thing and planning to be there for it because you just didn't plan ahead. There wasn't any such thing as—the Ferry Command was your life. That was it.

00:49:16.500 - 00:49:40.500

You would go to the officers' quarters and see if there were any other people there you knew or meet and sit around and talk or play cards or something. On these ferrying trips, were there also male pilots? Later on, yes. Sometimes they'd send out a whole group.

00:49:40.500 - 00:50:04.500

A different one, I'm talking about, you know, just happened to be traveling as a group but not that often. How were you treated by the male pilots? I didn't have any problem with them. Tell me about the most interesting trip you ever took as a ferry pilot.

00:50:04.500 - 00:50:22.500

Well, one was going up in Oklahoma, wait, Tulsa, Wichita. We were going to Wichita. I don't know where we picked up the PQs 13s. I can't remember back then.

00:50:22.500 - 00:50:39.500

My memory is very bad now. I can't remember where we picked up the PQs 13, the target ships. And they had retractable landing gear and you sat on 100 octane gas. And there wasn't anything between except a layer of plywood.

00:50:39.500 - 00:50:55.500

Everybody wanted to save themselves. I want to know about this gas tank you're sitting on top of. Well, the thing about it is it's impressed on you. You put your landing gear down before you come in if you don't forget everything.

00:50:55.500 - 00:51:15.500

I mean, played out. Tell me about a PQ. I've never seen one that I know of. They actually were built by Culver Cadet, and they're all radio-controlled.

00:51:15.500 - 00:51:28.500

And they were built—Red Devils, they called them. They were built for target ships, for target planes. And they sent them up without a pilot after you delivered them to one of the bases, either East Coast or where they used them.

00:51:28.500 - 00:51:47.500

They flew them without anybody in the plane. They were completely controlled by controls on the ground, like these planes they build, the little ones that fly around the airport. These were bigger and they were controlled.

00:51:47.500 - 00:52:08.500

So you had all this equipment on there. Everything inside was radio equipment for controlling the plane and the controls and all. That's the reason you had no space for anything except your parachute and your briefcase. You were in the middle of telling us about one particular trip.

00:52:08.500 - 00:52:28.500

Well, this particular trip—well, there was one before that that I should have said. Culver Cadet, they were target ships, but they were manned. The gear came down. They sent 13 of us up to get male pilots, and I think there were three gals.

00:52:28.500 - 00:52:51.500

And up to Tulsa, I think we picked those things up, or not Wichita. Tulsa was up further. Well, anyway, it was kind of windy and all. And on the way back, the three gals got back. And most of the guys scuttled theirs or left them because they weren't used to flying in wind.

00:52:51.500 - 00:53:09.500

And that light—they were used to pursuit jobs, and they thought they could fly anything. They got into those little lights. I'd had Culver Cadet time in civilian life, so I knew how to handle them. And most of the gals had somewhere along the line.

00:53:09.500 - 00:53:30.500

The guys that were trained on military bases never had any experience with the little— because they were like real light, easy to fly. But they were used to heavy controls and, you know, something that felt like something. So anyway, that was one.

00:53:30.500 - 00:53:48.500

Where are the rest of them? They didn't make it. While you were at Love Field, did you check out any heavier aircraft or in pursuits? Yeah, I checked out in C-47s and twin engine.

00:53:48.500 - 00:54:00.500

I went to pursuit school and blew it. I didn't want to fly pursuit. I went twin engine and voiced my opinion on it to begin with. Got a redheaded instructor that said he'd never check a woman out on pursuit.

00:54:00.500 - 00:54:14.500

I said, "That suits me fine. I don't want it anyway." Where were you? Brownsville. I told my redheaded instructor, I said, "We agree perfectly."

00:54:14.500 - 00:54:28.500

So when you came back, you checked out— So that's when I came back, that's when they put me on these BQ-13s and all these little light airplanes that nobody wanted to fly. That was my punishment.

00:54:28.500 - 00:54:51.500

Then after that, they sent me down to Laredo towing targets, B-25s. So talk about jumping from the frying pan. If I wanted twin engine, I was going to get it. So I jumped right from the frying pan right into the fire.

00:54:51.500 - 00:55:10.500

See, they didn't need any multi-engine. They needed pursuit pilots by then. So when you went to Laredo, did you go through a training period in B-25? Yes, very short, but got some training in there.

00:55:10.500 - 00:55:29.500

Walk me through a mission, tow target mission in a B-25. Well, you had a co-pilot, and you had two tow target— the ones that handled the cables to put the target out. And at the time I was there, they started out originally with 300 yards of cable went out.

00:55:29.500 - 00:55:53.500

Well, at that time, the cable shortage came up, so we were limited to 150 yards, which is only 300 feet of—no, 450 feet, but that's still not very far of cable. And we were towing targets for B-17s and B-24, gunnery pilot shooting action. As I said, as long as it went rat-a-tat-tat, rat-a-tat-tat, everything was fine.

00:55:53.500 - 00:56:11.500

But when you heard "zing," you crossed your fingers and said a prayer and said, "Please don't let it be a cable." You know, a control cable would be fatal, but the rest of it would be just a hole through the plane you could land it.

00:56:11.500 - 00:56:27.500

But anyway, during firing, incidentally, the two ones that handled the cable in the back didn't stay in the back. They came and stood behind the pilot and co-pilot. There was a little space right behind us there.

00:56:27.500 - 00:56:48.500

And while we were on the firing range, they were stood— we were all up there in front where the front part had some heavy armament or plate to kind of protect you a little bit up there, where the back was just the metal. And so I said, "Fortunately, I didn't have any."

00:56:48.500 - 00:57:05.500

I had some zings, but I didn't have anything that bothered us landing. But some of them did, after coming on a wing and a prayer. When you were on this pattern, were you out over the Gulf? No.

00:57:05.500 - 00:57:22.500

The Rado near the Gulf? No, we were mainly over South Texas, yeah. The aircraft that you were towing the target for, the gunners in that aircraft, what were they shooting at your targets?

00:57:22.500 - 00:57:35.500

I have no idea what kind of guns they were shooting. But live ammunition? Yes, definitely live ammunition, for sure. Otherwise, you wouldn't hear that ping or zing.

00:57:35.500 - 00:57:49.500

How long were you at the Rado doing that? I was there about three months, I think. Then I went from there, had enough there, and before I went there, I had put in for Selman Field up at Monroe,

00:57:49.500 - 00:58:09.500

which was a training base for navigators on the twin beaches. And I was only one of two girls up there. Bob and I were the only two that were up there. And how were you treated there?

00:58:09.500 - 00:58:27.500

Stayed in the nurses' quarters, and it was great. The only time I had any problem, I mean, except they had a civilian crew that had rebuilt an airplane, and they sent me out to fly it as a test flight. And that crew was really sweating that one out.

00:58:27.500 - 00:58:44.500

They weren't too happy to see the fact that they had sent a gal out to test fly their plane that they had spent months working on. But it all went all right. You do the regular test procedure and go.

00:58:44.500 - 00:59:00.500

So motion and taxi it and then go faster and do a lot of stuff on the ground before you actually see if you have complete control and everything. Everything is functioning. Do a good routine test on the ground before you ever try to take them off

00:59:00.500 - 00:59:14.500

after they've been worked on. What was your main job at Selman? Main job, anything they could find for me to do, like that test flight or if somebody came in complaining about a plane not working right

00:59:14.500 - 00:59:29.500

or something being wrong with it, take it and check it and be sure that they weren't just looking for getting the day off, goofing off for a day, which they did. And also, and then help them fly the missions too.

00:59:29.500 - 00:59:47.500

Jeanne and I would either pilot or co-pilot on the navigation. Students were in the back working, doing the navigation. What was the mission like for the navigators? Would you fly a course?

00:59:47.500 - 01:00:00.500

What would happen? We were told ahead of time what course to fly. And then these were student navigators? These were students that were learning.

01:00:00.500 - 01:00:12.500

Were they already commissioned officers? No, I don't think so. I think most of them were still privates. I don't think they were commissioned.

01:00:12.500 - 01:00:23.500

Only the pilots were commissioned, I think, as I remember up there. But eventually navigators were commissioned. Yes, yes. Was that their advanced training or do you know?

01:00:23.500 - 01:00:34.500

No, I don't think so. I think it was probably their beginning training. After they had been to school and learned, then they were getting some application.

01:00:34.500 - 01:00:49.500

How long did you stay at Selma? Until they let us out in December. When did you learn about the WASP being deactivated, and what were your thoughts?

01:00:49.500 - 01:01:07.500

I think I heard it by the grapevine first before I had any official word. Then I believe we got a telegram notifying us that we were deactivated as of a certain date. Find a way home.

01:01:07.500 - 01:01:15.500

Let me just go back and review for a moment. You were first sent to Love Field. Yes. And then from Love Field you went to Laredo?

01:01:15.500 - 01:01:31.500

Laredo. I went to training at Brownsville for two weeks. I didn't stay there long. Then back to Love and then to Laredo, to Selman Field.

01:01:31.500 - 01:01:45.500

But my biggest tour duty was at Love Field. When you were deactivated, did the air base do anything special for you to WASP? I think we just departed.

01:01:45.500 - 01:02:01.500

Everything was more or less without ceremony. You just did your job and went on. What do you think the WASP had accomplished by the time they were deactivated?

01:02:01.500 - 01:02:22.500

I think they had proved that the record could be just as good as the males could do. In other words, we could fly anything and do anything that they could do. In fact, I don't think there were any planes that the WASP-- some of the WASP didn't fly somewhere along the way.

01:02:22.500 - 01:02:41.500

Which led, of course, to how many years later? Them starting taking women into the Air Force and training them and everything else. But if we hadn't been there then, then there would have had to have been another pioneer program that let women in.

01:02:41.500 - 01:02:57.500

We'd established the record. So they started that. Of course, and then I think the push got on for women to get into-- not to be discriminated against and to get into more things than back in the '40s.

01:02:57.500 - 01:03:08.500

When you left Selman, where did you go? Home. Came back and went back to New Orleans Airport and got my commercial instructor's rating

01:03:08.500 - 01:03:21.500

and started instructing some, had a little airplane and base out here. We had a base here at the time. And they had the airport, so I found me a cow pasture out in the country and set me up in the airport and trained.

01:03:21.500 - 01:03:36.500

One of my very good friends that became a judge-- became a lawyer and a judge and worked as judge advocate in Korea and all, then came back and was a judge. I soloed him on his 16th birthday.

01:03:36.500 - 01:03:47.500

And soloed my father and soloed-- Soloed your father? I soloed my father, yeah, and soloed a number of the businessmen around town.

01:03:47.500 - 01:04:03.500

How did your mother feel? I don't think she worried too much about it. In fact, my father had the only forced landing that I ever had a student have. Blew a cylinder on a Piper Cub on his solo flight.

01:04:03.500 - 01:04:26.500

Brought it back in, no damage at all except it wouldn't run. How old was your dad at this point? Dad would have been about, let's see, 46 or 47. And how long did you keep that little airplane and teach students to fly?

01:04:26.500 - 01:04:41.500

I kept that about a year and a half before I decided that-- or maybe less--before I decided that-- before Dad got tired of supporting me. [Laughs]

01:04:41.500 - 01:04:57.500

Because the only time you could fly was on week-- people would fly after work, and on weekends. They didn't have leisure time like they do now during the day to fly. So all of it was weekend and late in the evening.

01:04:57.500 - 01:05:13.500

And even after we got back over to this other airport, that was still the thing. In the meantime, I married and started-- Well, let's back up to when you married. I got married in 1947.

01:05:13.500 - 01:05:24.500

Where did you meet this young man? Oh, I'd known him in high school. He was a high school friend. What were the qualities that attracted you to him?

01:05:24.500 - 01:05:46.500

I don't know outside of personable and friendly and ambitious and everything. But lived next door to his brother, incidentally. I mean, somebody I'd known for a long time. Just one of those things that sort of evolved being together a lot.

01:05:46.500 - 01:05:59.500

And your families were friends? Well, I mean, neighbors, as I said. So you married him in-- I married him, and my first child was born in '51, my daughter.

01:05:59.500 - 01:06:05.500

Was your husband a pilot? No, no. What did he do? He had a welding and machine shop.

01:06:05.500 - 01:06:17.500

He was a machinist. Before he went in the service and was on the Burma Road, he had instructed at the Povoluzza Trade School. In other words, he instructed welding over there for--

01:06:17.500 - 01:06:31.500

once it went to shipbuilding and all that. Had you dated him before he went? Yes, I had dated him some in high school. Then after he got out of the service, his wife left with somebody else.

01:06:31.500 - 01:06:41.500

Said she didn't love him anymore and didn't want him, so wound up divorcing him. So it was kind of loose ends, I guess. And then you had a daughter.

01:06:41.500 - 01:06:57.500

I had a daughter in '51 and a son in '55. It's my son that has Hooks Marine here in Hammond. Now we have a deal in boats. My daughter is now manager of Hammond Square Mall,

01:06:57.500 - 01:07:14.500

but she's done commercial management for properties and all throughout the state. Wanted a job where she'd be in one place instead of traveling. Do you have grandchildren? I have two grandsons.

01:07:14.500 - 01:07:29.500

One finished high school and was going to Southeastern, and the other one finished the lab school out here, Southeastern Lab School, and is going to high school, freshman in high school. So they're four years apart.

01:07:29.500 - 01:07:51.500

Both of them work for Dad at the shop during the summer and keep busy. Dad keeps them on the go. While your children were young and growing up, how did you occupy your time as far as their school activities or volunteer work?

01:07:51.500 - 01:08:19.500

Well, I had gone to school while I was expecting Claude. After he got to be a year old, my mother was a widow at that time. So she kept him, and I started teaching. I taught math at Hammond High for 23 years.

01:08:19.500 - 01:08:42.500

Got my two years credit from the WASP and told them adios, goodbye. Nice knowing you, but schools had changed. When I started, I had the better classes and all the good students and everything else. Then after integration, they said we all had to take all the classes

01:08:42.500 - 01:08:57.500

and got some weaker teachers in. It wasn't any fun to get one of the students that had those. So anyway, at the time I got out, it was ready for me to get out because I was getting too old to put up with some of the language they were using then.

01:08:57.500 - 01:09:09.500

Did you sleep with any of your students? Oh, yes, I see a lot of my students. Of course, being in the boat business and being at the office there, I see them come in all the time.

01:09:09.500 - 01:09:36.500

They know me, of course, as Ms. Hooks, not Ms. Round, because I married in December and retired the following May on the second marriage. I acquired five step-grandchildren on that one, but they were all grown and gone. At this point in your life, what do you keep busy doing?

01:09:36.500 - 01:10:02.500

Church work, work the food pantry once a month, work with that, and go to camp. I still have the camp that my first husband and I built. Tell me about it. It's on what we call Pass Manshack between Lake Mariposa and Lake Pontchartrain,

01:10:02.500 - 01:10:21.500

and it's five miles by boat from the nearest landing where you can drive your car. So you don't drive to it. You have to go by boat. Who do you let go to this camp? Well, my son actually--my daughter and I just deeded it to him.

01:10:21.500 - 01:10:39.500

He keeps it up and everything. They use it, but I go when I want to, and I have my own boat in the boathouse. I can take friends and go, but I usually try and cooperate with them. When they have company going, I don't go.

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So it's really a private camp. Oh, yes, it's a family camp. What kind of boat do you have? Right now I've got an 18-foot hydro sport.

01:10:53.500 - 01:11:05.500

Do you water ski? No, I've gotten past that with one broken hip. Now then, the last one I've done is broken a wrist. When you go out to camp, do you fish?

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I do some, not that much, but I just like to watch the water and watch things go-- watch the boats go by and see it. Of course, it's improved. We built in '68, 1968. And we'd just gotten electricity down on the pass at that time,

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but now we have electricity and air conditioning and cellular phones and all the conveniences of town you can holler. Do you have pet alligators down there? Not pets.

01:11:39.500 - 01:12:01.500

It would be bad news if I got one of the little dogs. My son and--they have two little Jack Russell terriers over there. And a friend of ours, a few weeks ago, alligator got one of his, but we watch him pretty close.

01:12:01.500 - 01:12:22.500

But the bank where his camp is slopes down to the water, and the dogs would get hot in the daytime and they'd go jumping, you know, go in the water, the shallow water, and the gator was waiting. But where our camp is, it's a good drop off from--we break water and all,

01:12:22.500 - 01:12:37.500

and it's a good drop off and the dogs don't go in the water there. Are you out--is it a little island? No. We're on land. We're in this par--we're on land. But you still have to get there by boat?

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Yes. Because there's no road. Well, it's all swamp around you. Lots of camps around, I mean, but strictly by boat.

01:12:46.500 - 01:13:08.500

That's the nice thing about it. People don't drop in on you on Sunday unless you go and get them or unless they have a boat of their own. Helen, what do you think the legacy of the Wasp will be?

01:13:08.500 - 01:13:36.500

The fact that we lived before our--well, what do I want to say-- could see the future before our time and were brave enough to go on and fly before women were supposed to and make a path for the rest of them, for later women to get into aviation.

01:13:36.500 - 01:14:01.500

I think if somebody hadn't started the program then, it might have been more years before women were accepted in aviation. And that leads me to ask you, what is your opinion of Jacqueline Hoffman? I have to admire her greatly from coming--I mean, the life that she came from

01:14:01.500 - 01:14:30.500

shows no matter what your background is, if you want to do something, you can get there. For the students of tomorrow, whatever, it doesn't make any difference what their background is. They'll get there. I see our vice president has nominated a runner that's a Jewish--take this off.

01:14:30.500 - 01:15:00.500

In our program, which I think that no matter what we had some in our first classes that came from money and some of them like me that came from none. What do you feel your legacy will be? I don't know whether they'll remember me more as a flyer or more as a teacher.

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What do you hope? For both. I want to be both. Some will remember me for flying, but more will remember me as a teacher, I think. Of all the things you have done, and they're so numerous, what are you most proud of?

01:15:24.500 - 01:15:51.500

My children. My grandchildren. If you could say something to your grandchildren or your great-grandchildren or children that you don't even know in 25 or 50 years from now, what do you want to say to them that might encourage them to have the courage that you had to succeed?

01:15:51.500 - 01:16:08.500

What advice would you give them? Set a goal and then work toward it, regardless of what it is, regardless of the time. Set a goal that you want to reach. But a lot of it is faith.

01:16:08.500 - 01:16:26.500

My life was--I mean, as one thing happened, another one. My life just has fallen in. I don't know whether it's been faith or what, but my life has just fallen into place. Every time something came up that I was going to have to make a change,

01:16:26.500 - 01:16:41.500

something else fell in place to take care of it. Do you think it could be as God closed the door and opened the window? Yeah, there's something to that effect. And do I believe in an angel beside you? Yes.

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I think all of us, if you knew, know we had one with us. But actually, even today, things that happen. I mean, as I said, one thing happens and then another. My first husband passed away before Easter.

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I still had to go on teaching. I went on teaching. Went on for a number of years. About the time I was ready to retire, I found somebody else and remarried

01:17:24.500 - 01:17:38.500

and had a good eight and a half years. Then when he passed away and I was going to be at loose ends, well, then my son opens another business and I fall into working there and fall into church work.

01:17:38.500 - 01:18:01.500

I seem to find something to stay busy. I've been in water aerobics about four years now, four times a week usually. Summer and winter, because our pool is heated. Is there anything that I've left out or anything that you want to say

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that I haven't asked you about or any story you would like to tell us? I can't think of any. I really can't. After you're gone, I'll probably think of something, but it always happens.

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But I can't think of any now. You have been a delight. Well, thank you. And we thank you so much.

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I know the children of future generations will thank you. Well, I hope so. Favorite airplane. Huh?

01:18:29.500 - 01:18:48.500

What's your favorite airplane? Oh, I still like old Luscombe or--I'm trying to think. We haven't been flying enough lately to--oh, come on, help me out. What followed the Luscombe?

01:18:48.500 - 01:19:01.500

I don't know. I don't know because I didn't fly to Luscombe. I like the 86. Well, I like the 86, but it wasn't one of my favorites, I don't think.

01:19:01.500 - 01:19:14.500

What was your favorite job as a Watson? You mean besides flying? No, I meant flying, but what particular job? Ferrying or towing targets?

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Well, I think the ferrying--the towing targets is strenuous. The towing targets was a little riskier, let's say that. You felt a little more--you didn't feel as easy about it as you felt. Ferrying, you knew that you were the one in command, unless you had failure or something.

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But when you were towing targets, you're not the one-- The gunners are in command. The gunners are in command. Somebody else is in command.