00:00:00.000 - 00:00:16.900

Remember, you know, so if you'll just forget that I know anything about the wasps because The people who will be listening to this don't know anything. They don't know what a zoot suit is, you know And all these different they don't know what barracks look like so when I ask you something

00:00:18.240 - 00:00:30.400

you just Tell them I've got a picture of the barracks. We lived in Romulus and a little tiny picture and the one in Sweetwater Oh great. They're in a bit of right. I don't have much. Yeah >> Okay.

00:00:30.590 - 00:00:37.900

>> Okay. >> Okay. >> I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. We're interviewing Grace Fender.

00:00:38.540 - 00:00:50.680

She was a WASP class 43-4. We're in her home in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. It's the 29th of January, 2002. And the videographer is Nancy Parrish.

00:00:51.240 - 00:01:02.420

Okay, Grace, if you'll tell us your full name and when and where you were born, and we'll go from there. >> Grace Clark Fender. I was born in Wichita Falls, Texas, August the 13th, 1920.

00:01:02.940 - 00:01:11.560

>> Okay. Grace, tell me about your mom and dad. >> Well, my father was about -- he was nine years older than my mother.

00:01:11.620 - 00:01:22.620

My mother was 40 years old by the time I came along and my twin sister. And then she had another child after that. And she was a wonderful mother.

00:01:23.480 - 00:01:37.460

And my father traveled a lot. And so she really kept things going at home. Her loyalties were spread pretty thin with all the children. But by the time the three of us came along,

00:01:37.500 - 00:01:46.500

there had been an eight-year gap. So the boys were mostly gone by, you know, than I can remember. They had gone to school. They were living in other parts of the country.

00:01:47.060 - 00:01:53.460

>> Tell me about what you remember about the first home you lived in. Were you in town? Were you on the outskirts?

00:01:54.400 - 00:02:07.700

I was born in a two-story brick house that I think they paid $9,000 for way, way back there. And it was, I guess you, it's still going, still standing there, and there's a family living there.

00:02:08.580 - 00:02:27.920

And so we had, that was where I lived and that's where I was married. And that's where I took the grandchildren back to visit their grandmother. When you were small and your dad was traveling a lot, how did your mom spend her time other than taking care of you kids?

00:02:29.380 - 00:02:44.180

She had been a teacher before she married, and so she was interested in the Delta Kappa Gamma, which is a professional teacher's association. She had a lot of friends. She belonged to some clubs.

00:02:44.180 - 00:02:58.420

I don't remember which ones they were, but mostly she was there for us. We had household help, so she didn't have to do everything, but she was still a busy woman. Tell me how you would feel when your dad would come home.

00:02:58.780 - 00:03:09.000

What would happen? Well, you know, lots of times he came home after we had gone to bed and had to leave the next morning. So it was a special time when he was there, though.

00:03:11.860 - 00:03:25.400

I can remember sitting in his lap. He was a businessman, and I liked business, so he would draw pictures. Sometimes if he was traveling in West Texas, I would go along with him and drive him when I got to be old enough to drive.

00:03:25.980 - 00:03:41.220

But it was always special when he was home. Of course, as we got older, he didn't travel that much. He had an office in Wichita Falls. As a young child with your mother's background, how did that affect how she treated you children

00:03:41.360 - 00:03:54.920

as far as education and studying and that type of thing? It was very important to her. My father was on the school board for nineteen years, so the school system was very much a part of our lives.

00:03:56.740 - 00:04:07.820

>>Recall the first day you went to school. >>I sure remember. Miss Kate Haynes, she was the cutest little lady you ever saw, and we were about probably eight blocks from school.

00:04:09.780 - 00:04:24.960

Sometimes we walked, most of the time Mother picked us up, and so yes, I remember her. >>When your mother picked you up, what kind of car did she have? It was an old one. I don't remember. I have no idea. Okay. And then for lunch, what would you do?

00:04:25.260 - 00:04:44.200

We would take our lunch, but I think we had a cafeteria even then. I'm not sure about that. How large was this school? For example, was there more than one first grade? I'm not sure. I just don't remember that. Okay.

00:04:44.840 - 00:04:56.040

several schools in town, primary schools in town. But it was a brick building. It was more than just a little one-room schoolhouse. We had one through six grades there.

00:04:56.140 - 00:05:20.200

Kelly: Let me ask you to describe for me your grandparents. Diveney: Well, I hardly knew my grandparents because by the time we came along, my paternal grandmother lived with us and died at our house. All I remember about her is I can remember she had a cane and that we were crowded in

00:05:20.200 - 00:05:31.880

that house and she had her own room, which she really needed. She would go outside at night and cool off the house. That was my complaint of my parents. She just wanted to go out and check the weather.

00:05:32.260 - 00:05:42.040

We were all freezing by the time she got in. So I barely remember, but she was a nice lady. >> And the other, your maternal grandparents? >> I never knew her.

00:05:42.160 - 00:05:53.500

I never knew either one of them. >> When you were early in your childhood, how did you spend your vacations in the summer? >> We used to go to Estes Park in the summer.

00:05:54.260 - 00:06:01.920

>> Would your dad go with you? >> Uh-huh. >> What was that like? >> Well, you know, there weren't all that many hotels

00:06:02.000 - 00:06:13.280

at that time, but I remember we stayed at Mrs. Boyd's boarding house. And I think, well, we stayed in a house that he -- Papa just rented the whole floor,

00:06:13.770 - 00:06:23.240

and then we would walk a half a block for dinner. And that was a thrill. We loved that every year. >> What was fun about Estes Park to you?

00:06:23.450 - 00:06:30.240

>> The mountains. It was cool after Wichita Falls. >> Did you ride horses? >> Mm-hmm.

00:06:30.710 - 00:06:39.140

>> Okay. >> And the little Cog Railroad. >> Okay. How long would you stay at a time up in Estes?

00:06:40.360 - 00:06:51.380

>> We were always going to stay at least two weeks, but I'm not sure we ever made that because as soon as we got there, Papa was ready to turn around and go home. So we stayed probably two weeks.

00:06:51.910 - 00:07:06.480

>> Okay. In driving up there, do you recall where you stayed en route? >> We had a ranch in West Texas at that time, and I remember, I know one thing is that we stayed in Quanta always going

00:07:06.480 - 00:07:17.120

So I don't know what we did. Probably at Amarillo. When did you have this ranch? It was in the family for years and years from the time I can remember. It was sold in '66, I think.

00:07:18.240 - 00:07:40.660

During the summers, then, would you go also to the ranch in addition to going to Estes? Part of the time. It depended on who was managing the ranch. Now, my older brothers were there at one time, and they had hired help. and we didn't, and then when Willis married and he had children, we didn't go until we got older.

00:07:41.140 - 00:07:52.120

And then Papa would send us up there, and I bet they could have died. He sent us to the ranch to help out during harvest. What kind of a ranch was this? A cattle ranch, and they had wheat and...

00:07:52.120 - 00:07:59.680

What kind of cattle? Longhorns? No. Red-faced cattle.

00:08:00.820 - 00:08:08.080

I cannot remember that. - Heifer? No. - Good heavens. Nancy, you're supposed to remember that.

00:08:08.080 - 00:08:18.140

- I'm a Texan. - Yeah, you should know that. So should I. - Grace, let me ask you. What was a Christmas like in your home?

00:08:18.140 - 00:08:25.340

- Oh, fabulous. In the front entrance hall, we had a huge tree. That house had fairly high ceilings.

00:08:25.500 - 00:08:39.960

This tree was huge. With all the children coming home, And we had it was just loaded with presents and that was just paradise and we had to stay upstairs Christmas morning we had Christmas morning for our Christmas

00:08:40.740 - 00:08:58.700

We couldn't come downstairs until my older brother and see he was 17 years older than That I was and and he and his wife and his his her family lived across the street from us See, so they would come spend the night with her parents and then they would come over the next morning We could not come downstairs until they came

00:09:00.500 - 00:09:13.360

I don't know why that was. Do you remember one special Christmas with one special gift? I remember the year that all three of us got bicycles. And that was a thrill.

00:09:15.880 - 00:09:25.780

While your grandmother was living with you, do you recall anything special about Christmas with your grandmother? Would she help with the dinner? No, we had help.

00:09:27.060 - 00:09:46.540

She was really too old by the time she came to our house. She had lived in Wichita Falls with a sister of hers. That was kind of fun to go over to their house, which was about three blocks away. Aunt Matt, her sister, was blind, and we did not know that for years.

00:09:47.160 - 00:09:59.600

We would walk around the table, acting like we were chasing her, and she was a little tiny lady. I did not know until I don't know how long ago after that that she was blind. We had no idea.

00:09:59.880 - 00:10:13.540

She was a wonderful little lady. She made more of an impression on me than my grandmother, just because of the type of person she was. >> Were there other ways you celebrated Christmas besides just your Christmas tree?

00:10:14.980 - 00:10:27.120

>> We always went to church. I don't remember whether it was that evening or whenever the service was. Would you have like pageants at your church? I guess.

00:10:27.800 - 00:10:34.540

I don't remember really. You don't remember being an angel? No, I was never an angel. I was hoping.

00:10:35.880 - 00:10:53.320

Too bad. Too bad. Going back to your starting school, in elementary school, who was your favorite teacher? I guess Miss Kate was, and then there was an English teacher that I liked.

00:10:54.760 - 00:11:08.900

My long-term memory is pretty good. I remember an English teacher in about the fifth grade, Mildred Roundtree, and then I remember a music teacher in the sixth grade. Tell me some of the games you played as a child.

00:11:10.280 - 00:11:27.520

We played hide-and-seek outside. We had a pretty good-sized yard, and we had quite a few kids in the neighborhood, so we We would, that's one game I remember, and then the game where Red Rover, Red Rover, whatever that game was, we did that.

00:11:29.220 - 00:11:41.800

And we skated. Do you remember in elementary school whether or not you had dreams of what you would be when you grew up? I don't know that I don't remember ever thinking about that.

00:11:42.260 - 00:11:56.280

I'm sure I did, but I don't remember. When you finished elementary school, then did you have to change school buildings? And then how far was that from home? Well, it was a little further than the primary school.

00:11:56.420 - 00:12:08.380

But I went to a school that we had the seventh and eighth, maybe the ninth, and that was an intermediate school or what did they call that? Junior high. Junior high school.

00:12:09.200 - 00:12:18.620

In elementary school, what kind of student were you? Fair. What was your favorite subject? Buckner: Art, I believe.

00:12:18.830 - 00:12:33.300

Vicky: And then when you got into junior high, do you recall any of those teachers that might have made an impression on you? Buckner: Not too much. Vicky: Then from junior high, then did you change buildings again?

00:12:33.330 - 00:12:49.720

Buckner: Senior high, uh-huh. There was only one high school, senior high school in Wichita Falls at that time. Our biggest football rival was Amarillo. Our grandson graduated four years ago from that same school.

00:12:49.860 - 00:13:05.620

Isn't that funny? Because they live in Amarillo now. >> When you got to high school, what other activities did you enjoy other than academics? >> Oh, I played some tennis.

00:13:07.140 - 00:13:18.880

>> Did they have a tennis team? No, I don't remember. They must have had tennis courts, but we had a place down the hill, Bluebonnet Hill, we called it.

00:13:19.850 - 00:13:38.280

There were some courts there that we used to play. Were you into music or sports or drama? I don't remember any specific field. In high school, then, what did you enjoy studying?

00:13:39.820 - 00:13:59.640

I enjoyed English, art. Specifically I remember the art teacher because we kept up with her, my sister and I did. And my sister was an art major at TWU. As you were growing up through high school, who were your role models?

00:14:04.720 - 00:14:19.480

You know, I liked biography. I've always liked biography, and I don't remember when. I just don't remember. In high school, what were your social activities like?

00:14:23.700 - 00:14:41.860

Teenagers in those days, who could get a car, you know, the family car, and then we'd all gather at one of the pharmacies, drugstores we called them. And then we'd all regroup, and the next person that could get their car, that would go on all Sunday afternoon.

00:14:42.420 - 00:14:56.240

And then the kids would come out to your car, and you could always tell the most popular girl that all the boys were around that car. Now, I was not the most popular girl. In fact, I was not the least bit interested in dances and so forth.

00:14:56.910 - 00:15:10.620

I was a tomboy, basically. Do you recall your high school prom? Now I should, but I don't. That's okay.

00:15:11.260 - 00:15:28.240

I remember one later. Well, my mother belonged to the Women's Forum in Wichita Falls. And so they had a presentation of all the girls that were seniors. And I remember going to that, and my sister loved that.

00:15:29.600 - 00:15:42.700

And I went just because I had to. Because she went and she felt funny going if I didn't go. So she dragged me in a lot of things I didn't really want to go to. Were your brothers involved in sports?

00:15:43.840 - 00:15:54.540

Or had they already graduated? They had really already graduated. How involved was your mom, well your dad was on the school board, how involved was your mom in school activities?

00:15:54.820 - 00:16:11.860

I'm sure she went to PTA all the time. Were you involved in other social or in clubs outside of school? In any church, for example, activities? Well, we went to, I guess, MYF at night.

00:16:12.400 - 00:16:18.920

And, uh... Did you sing in the choir? No, I didn't. I had a wonderful choir.

00:16:20.200 - 00:16:30.980

That church is still there, going strong. Great. Tell me about your high school graduation. Did you have caps and gowns?

00:16:31.720 - 00:16:47.780

My father presented us with our diploma. That was a thrill to have your own father present your diploma. And do it for the whole class? The next year or a year earlier, one of our friends, I can't even think of her name,

00:16:48.420 - 00:16:58.520

she had an odd last name, and we were so afraid. We were so nervous that he was going to mispronounce her name. Her name was Nancy, incidentally. "Saman, Saman."

00:16:58.520 - 00:17:09.620

And we spelled it in a peculiar way. We kept saying, "Papa, now you've got to go over all these names." Then the president of the school board had to call the names. They don't do that anymore.

00:17:09.800 - 00:17:22.300

They've got somebody else calling the names, I've noticed ever since then. But he did that then. We got through that. Can you remember at that point if you were really proud of him or if you were embarrassed?

00:17:23.280 - 00:17:38.240

We just didn't want him to mispronounce names. I was always proud of my parents. My parents were so much older than my friend's parents, really, because he was 51 when I was born and Mother was 40.

00:17:40.200 - 00:17:49.220

She had a baby two years later. She had babies for a long time. >> What kind of student were you in high school? >> Just mediocre.

00:17:50.680 - 00:18:01.700

Before you graduated, at what point did you know what you wanted to do? Or did you? I didn't really. But flying had been in our family.

00:18:01.880 - 00:18:11.620

I guess I always wanted to fly. I don't remember when I first wanted to do it, but I had two brothers that were flying at that time. Actually, all four of my brothers had licenses.

00:18:14.360 - 00:18:24.340

Did you live near an airport? Well it really wasn't. You couldn't walk or ride a bicycle or anything, but we had the Wichita Falls Municipal Airport, which is where Shepard Air Force Base is now.

00:18:25.020 - 00:18:41.340

That's the airport that we used. Cranston: Do you know how they became interested in flying? Diveney: It wasn't my oldest brother, but the next oldest, I guess, Duncan, was interested in flying.

00:18:41.420 - 00:19:01.240

I remember when I was little that they came home and he had a helmet on with the goggles, and I was so impressed. I don't know how they afforded all this, because it was expensive then to buy an hour's worth of flying time. >> When is the first time that you went out to the airport and got in an airplane?

00:19:01.590 - 00:19:22.080

>> A private plane? I can remember Chamberlain. What was his name? Chamberlain. He had a tri-motor plane, and they were taking rides. I remember saving my money so I could go on a ride in his plane, and I did. And then I think my older brother had friends who had planes, and he would fly for them sometimes.

00:19:23.340 - 00:19:39.800

But that wasn't his career as such. But he had a plane for years. >> How did your mom and dad feel about their little girl going up, learning to fly an airplane? >> They never did discourage us from doing anything.

00:19:41.720 - 00:20:09.680

But you know the boys never, you know for instance when we had Thanksgiving meal, big family, after we had food, after everybody had eaten, the boys would go out and play football. And they did not want any of the girls out there. I used to resent that. I really wanted to be out there with them. I didn't want to be stuck in the house. I don't remember my other two sisters feeling that way. But anyway. Tell me how you got started then taking lessons.

00:20:09.720 - 00:20:38.560

>> The CPT program, the Civilian Pilot Training Program, at Hardin Junior College. I believe I was a sophomore, and of course it was just a two-year junior college. We were sitting in the student center one day, a bunch of us, and they had announced that they would have this class of 20, and 10% could be girls. That's the first I'd heard of that, I believe.

00:20:38.720 - 00:20:54.560

And so Mary Myers McCullough was sitting there and one of the boys said, "I just dare you to go apply for that." So by golly, we did and we got in. I guess we might have been the only applicants. What does CPT stand for? Civilian Pilot Training.

00:20:55.740 - 00:21:11.700

When you graduated from high school, did you know then that you would be going on to college? And how did you decide on that college? It was the cheapest place, and my father had helped build that college. I mean, he was on the school board when that college was built.

00:21:12.270 - 00:21:20.440

I remember going with him the day that they shoveled the first shovel of dirt to build that college. That impressed me. I remember that.

00:21:20.950 - 00:21:45.740

We brought the shovel home, and it stayed in our basement for years. When you entered that college, did you have in mind a goal? No, I didn't. I didn't know until... I always wanted to fly, I guess. It was way back there that I always thought that would be wonderful, but never thinking I could do it. And so, just let it ring if you want to.

00:21:47.140 - 00:21:58.600

[Ringing] You want to cut for a minute? We had to have... Okay, go ahead. We had to pay $40 as a registration fee.

00:21:59.820 - 00:22:16.500

I didn't have any money, so I asked Pop if he would pay for that. He said, "Why don't you earn it?" thinking if I was really serious. So I paid furniture on the porch, and $40 worth. I probably wasn't $40 worth, but that's how I got signed up for this course.

00:22:16.600 - 00:22:34.820

Of course, then it was free. I got all of my flying time free. What else did you have to do in that course other than flying? We had ground school. Our schedules were so that we could go out every afternoon and we'd go to classes, ground school in the morning, our regular classes,

00:22:35.000 - 00:22:45.080

and then we'd go out to the airport in the afternoon. And that was heaven on earth to me. >> Right. Tell me what some of those courses were. >> The regular courses I took or the ground school? >> No, the ground school.

00:22:45.120 - 00:23:00.340

>> Well, we had to take navigation and just the regular courses for flying. >> And who were the instructors for those? I think the physics teacher, I think there were regular junior college instructors that had the books, and they taught us the ground school part.

00:23:02.240 - 00:23:16.080

Tell me about your first solo. What were you flying? A little Taylorcraft, a little side-by-side 65-horsepower Taylorcraft. The day I soloed, of course, we were kind of the center of attraction because we were

00:23:16.160 - 00:23:25.720

the odd ones. When I came in on the first landing by myself, they had an alarm clock up on the dash, and it went off. They did this deliberately.

00:23:26.740 - 00:23:34.480

I was furious. I said, "You ought to be glad I didn't crack this thing up." I was shocked. Anyway, they were all sitting down there laughing.

00:23:35.440 - 00:23:49.280

Those were great guys. I really enjoyed them, and they were very nice to us. Kelly: You kept flying until—how many hours did that CPT course allow you to have? I think I had 65, something like that.

00:23:51.420 - 00:23:58.680

So we got a private pilot's license. I can't even remember. Let's see, we soloed it nine hours. I'm not sure how that went.

00:23:59.420 - 00:24:07.740

Probably 65 hours. >> Okay. What year was it that you soloed? >> I guess I started flying in 1940.

00:24:08.740 - 00:24:23.900

Before the school year was out, I had gotten my private pilot's license. When you finished that junior college, then where did you go? Then I went to Denton, TWU. What made you decide on that particular school?

00:24:24.260 - 00:24:38.980

Because it was cheaper and it was better than most. The cost factor was a factor then. The Depression was still not where we were out of the Depression yet. We were coming out.

00:24:39.700 - 00:24:47.780

We had three of us. Papa had three of us in college at one time. Martha never finished. She took the car and then didn't go to class.

00:24:48.940 - 00:25:02.040

Borrowed Mother's car and then she didn't go to class. How did you get from Wichita Falls over to Denton? We roomed there. Did you have a car, your own car?

00:25:02.910 - 00:25:09.140

Did you ride the train over? We had the train. Our mother and papa would take us. Then where did you live at Denton?

00:25:09.500 - 00:25:24.040

In a dorm. What was your goal when you started college at Denton? What was your major? Well, I did not have a major until I, a junior, I had to declare something.

00:25:25.360 - 00:25:38.320

And so I didn't know what, I really didn't have one. So I thought, well, I'll just pick business because I can, I won't have labs in the afternoon. Maybe I'll have enough money to go to the airport and take some more time. That's basically why I chose it.

00:25:38.360 - 00:25:50.520

I could not have chosen better. Because I love that. When you left home and went to Denton, how did you get in? Did you keep flying, and where did you fly?

00:25:50.530 - 00:26:02.020

>> Well, if I had the money, there was a local airport in town, and this guy was very nice. He'd come by the dorm and pick me up. >> And what kind of airplanes were you flying in? >> It was a small one.

00:26:02.990 - 00:26:16.440

It might have been just like a side-by-side telegraph. What in your mind did you feel that you were going to do with all of that knowledge? The flying? I had no idea.

00:26:17.820 - 00:26:36.140

If World War II hadn't come along, it would have all ended right there, I'm sure, because it was prohibitive, the cost of -- I didn't even have a degree, much less have a job. Were you ever afraid when you were learning to fly? I don't remember.

00:26:36.640 - 00:27:01.580

I had lots of narrow escapes in my opinion. Scary times when I was flying, when I was ferrying, but I don't remember being afraid when we were doing just the CPT class. Did you have any close calls or anything happen when you were in that CPT course?

00:27:01.700 - 00:27:10.920

If we did, I don't remember. I'm sure there were. There were always. It was the day that we had to take our test for our license.

00:27:11.100 - 00:27:23.340

We had to go up and spend, but that was kind of fun. I didn't mind that. I don't remember any hair raising experiences. Did your brothers ever give you kind of a hard time?

00:27:28.040 - 00:27:37.700

My brothers hardly ever. I think they must have been pretty chauvinistic. They never even mentioned. They almost never asked me any questions and they almost never talked about my flying.

00:27:39.820 - 00:27:47.880

So I never mentioned it to them. I mean, that doesn't sound right. But see, my oldest brother was 17 years older than I was and then they came down a little bit.

00:27:49.960 - 00:28:03.520

In fact, when I was out, after the -- let's see, you go ahead and ask your questions, Donna. >> That's okay. Did your dad make a difference in their flying and in your flying as far as his interests?

00:28:04.980 - 00:28:24.660

He was really proud and when I went to Sweetwater I remember a letter I had from him and he says this will open all kinds of doors for you and here he was an old man then but he was a wonderful father. Recall when where you were and how you heard about Pearl Harbor and how that made you How do you feel?

00:28:24.900 - 00:28:42.180

I was a senior in college in Denton that December and I remember it really well. And there it was, December, we were graduating in May and we all got so excited we wanted to just check out of school and go help the war effort, which was the dumbest thing we could have done.

00:28:42.280 - 00:28:57.720

Of course we stayed in because we didn't have any alternative at that time. We didn't think we did. So gosh, yes, that was something else. How do you feel Pearl Harbor and World War II, how did it change the heart of America?

00:29:00.900 - 00:29:20.020

Well, I think war changes the heart of everybody. Your priorities were completely different when the war came along. There was a man interviewing me one day who lives here who is doing interviews for the Eisenhower thing.

00:29:20.020 - 00:29:42.960

At the end of the interview, he said, "What do you think about when you think of World War II?" The first things that came to my mind were Eisenhower, Roosevelt, and Churchill, which is, of course, how we got into the war. I was really impressed with those. >> How did it change your family?

00:29:45.480 - 00:29:57.620

>> Because of the ages of the others, only one of my brothers was in the service. He was in a sort of a CPT program. It was a little different, but similar. And he was already married.

00:29:58.660 - 00:30:08.780

And so it didn't change our family as such because we didn't lose anybody. And that was rare in those days. >> When you were a student at TWU,

00:30:09.420 - 00:30:17.400

did you join any sororities or clubs? Tell me about those. >> Well, there was a little -- well, they called it a literary club

00:30:17.400 - 00:30:33.460

because it was not a sorority as we know it, like Baylor has now. So a lot of Wichita Falls girls belonged to this one club. I didn't even think of the name of it, so we did join. I liked that.

00:30:33.760 - 00:30:45.260

It was nice. >>When you were in college, then what were your social activities like, other than your flying? >>Well, during the war, there were no men around.

00:30:45.260 - 00:31:01.000

But I do remember that we had a couple of dances, two or three dances of the cadets coming from different surrounding fields. I was always uncomfortable with those. I was shy.

00:31:01.510 - 00:31:11.940

Cidy: Did you have anybody special during the time you were in school? Ruth: No. Well, in high school I did, but not special. I can hardly remember his name.

00:31:13.660 - 00:31:25.620

>> In high school? I don't remember. >> I didn't date a lot as far as one person. We had a group, a mixed group that we ran around with all the time, which I think is pretty healthy.

00:31:25.720 - 00:31:37.480

They don't do that anymore, apparently. So that was what I liked, and we kept up with them always. >> What was your graduation like from TWU? >> It was very impressive.

00:31:38.660 - 00:31:48.160

What was the best thing about TWU were the wonderful lecturers they had. So it was very formal. Did your mom and dad come? Uh-huh.

00:31:50.540 - 00:32:09.120

And what were your plans after graduation? Well, I got a job at the airport as a dispatcher. And for the other CPT classes that came along. And that was a hard job, but I loved every minute of it.

00:32:09.140 - 00:32:29.120

I didn't have a car. I had to transfer a bus and go out to the airport every day. But I kept the flight logs and the engine logs for these twenty students. >> Were there any female instructors out at that airport?

00:32:30.280 - 00:32:41.600

Did you know any other girls, besides the one girl who was in your class, that learned fly there? I can't think of any. I don't believe there were.

00:32:42.080 - 00:33:00.240

At some point you heard about a program to train women to fly military aircraft. Do you recall how you heard that? I suppose in the paper, but also, you know, Dede, she was a friend of my family's. She in fact, her maiden name was Clark and my maiden name, we were no kin.

00:33:00.660 - 00:33:13.880

But my mother, I don't remember this because it was before I was remembering things like But at one time, her house burned down in Alley Park, and they had a big family, and they sort of farmed out all the kids. And so Diddy lived at our house for a short period of time.

00:33:13.980 - 00:33:30.260

I don't actually remember that. It was before I was -- I just don't remember it. I knew her, and I knew she was an establishment officer, but Mother and I went to Fort Worth. That's where I went, and I don't remember whether we had to take a test or not.

00:33:30.700 - 00:33:41.740

I was one of more applicants that day. But anyway, I interviewed somebody. I think I interviewed Jackie Cochran. Do you recall the physical?

00:33:42.780 - 00:33:56.500

Sure do. At Shepherd Air Force Base. You're laughing. Going down the hall with your little bottle, and all these GIs are sitting out in the aisle,

00:33:56.860 - 00:34:15.320

And they gave you, they looked you over all the way down. Yeah, I do remember that. And evidently your mother approved or she wouldn't have been there with you, right? Yes, she was, they were very, they had kids that had flown always, so this was nothing

00:34:15.500 - 00:34:28.560

new to them. But this program was certainly new to everybody. How long was it after you took your physical and was interviewed until you received notification? It was pretty soon after.

00:34:28.660 - 00:34:38.720

I might have had notification before I got the physical. It might have been contingent on the physical. I don't know, but it was right there. So you left and went to Sweetwater.

00:34:38.860 - 00:34:48.700

How did you get to Sweetwater? I guess my parents took me. So you were used to kind of West Texas. Sweetwater was not a surprise.

00:34:49.780 - 00:35:06.640

A little, but you know, West Texas, Wichita Falls had hot and dusty. But that was so exciting to see Avenger feel. What was exciting about it? Being able to live on the flight line and everybody doing this, you know, everybody

00:35:07.120 - 00:35:20.520

with the same interest and all these women that had the same interest. I really loved all of those women. Tell me about your particular class, which was an oddity, because half of you were at Houston. You explain that.

00:35:20.520 - 00:35:49.760

You know that. Well, you know that I was not aware of that. I was so focused on what I was doing that I wasn't thinking about, I didn't know what was going on around me, obviously, because I remember, looking back, I can remember the day they were flying in the planes from Houston. But later on, I thought I would go to reunions and I thought, "Gee, I don't remember them. They were in my class." What it was, and I was so dumb, it was all these gals that came up from Houston.

00:35:50.140 - 00:35:56.160

I didn't know most of them. We were in different flights. You know how they did that. We flew in the morning, they flew in the afternoon.

00:35:57.060 - 00:36:12.040

I didn't know them very well. So it didn't change anything, really. Tell me about your first impression when you went out to Avenger Field. All the airplanes.

00:36:13.580 - 00:36:24.840

We stayed in the Blue Bond Hotel at first because the cadets were still at the base when we got there. What kind of cadets were these? These were primary.

00:36:25.150 - 00:36:31.960

It was a primary training field. There might have been British cadets. There might have been some in there. I don't know.

00:36:32.090 - 00:36:42.880

I don't remember. that when you got out to the field, there were only primary trainers at that point? >> Well, no, because we did all of our training, our basic

00:36:42.940 - 00:36:50.420

and our advanced training out there, but the primary trainers, PT-19, I thought that was the most complicated cockpit I had ever seen.

00:36:50.640 - 00:37:02.620

>> Okay. But let me ask you, Grace, when you first got there and the cadets were there, did they not only, did they just have primary trainers that they were training in?

00:37:02.640 - 00:37:13.860

And they were phased out every month. And so it didn't take long before they were all gone. >> And then how was your program different from their program as far as the airplanes?

00:37:14.520 - 00:37:22.020

>> We apparently were flying the same, the PT-19s. >> Okay. >> And I can't believe that. >> Okay.

00:37:22.340 - 00:37:33.440

>> Okay. I think that's probably the best one. >> Okay. Grace, tell me the difference between your program and the Canadian cadets, if that's what they were, that were flying there?

00:37:34.780 - 00:37:48.260

I don't remember. I don't remember even comparing them. I probably knew, but I don't remember. Did those cadets take all of their training at one base, or what happened?

00:37:48.840 - 00:38:06.800

I'm not sure. I think I thought they did their primary only there and then went on to secondary and advanced, but I'm not sure of that. Did you move out to the base while they were still in the barracks?

00:38:08.900 - 00:38:20.820

I'm trying to remember, maybe so, part of us, but we lived at the hotel for a while. We'd go out by bus every day because they weren't ready for us. What kind of bus did you go on? Kind of like a school bus.

00:38:20.920 - 00:38:39.720

Sometimes it was sort of open. When we first got to the Blue Bonnet Hotel, the cadets would come into town and say, "Waffies, where are the Waffies?" You would be almost scared.

00:38:39.720 - 00:38:48.900

>> Were you able to socialize with those cadets? >> I didn't. I don't ever remember. They weren't there long enough to really become acquainted.

00:38:49.210 - 00:39:07.020

>> Do you recall how long it was before you moved to Avenger? a month, but I'm not sure of that at all. It was not a long time. So your class was the first one to go to Avenger? To start and finish at Avenger.

00:39:07.940 - 00:39:26.720

When you moved out to the bays, describe your quarters. I've got a picture in there, but they're one floor barracks. They look kind of like a motel, an old-fashioned motel. We had what they call a bays, and there were six of us in each bay. Virgie was in one of those.

00:39:29.840 - 00:39:46.160

We had inspection every day. We had a bay and then a shower, maybe two showers, and then the next bay was connected. So we were connected to each other along. We had inspection every morning.

00:39:46.480 - 00:39:59.660

Darlene Flynn: Describe your bay mates. Ruth Benson: Interesting people. Of course, there was Virgie from Frankston, Texas, and Brennan was from El Paso. We had a gal from California.

00:40:00.240 - 00:40:19.740

I think she'd been in the movies, or she had something to do with the movie industry. We had such varied backgrounds. What was your schedule like once you moved to Avenger? One of my classmates blew the bugle, AJ.

00:40:21.500 - 00:40:28.220

I will always remember AJ. She was wonderful. Anyway, she's from New Jersey. So we were up early.

00:40:29.560 - 00:40:42.100

We had to get in line with our old suits on, the coveralls. I loved to wear those things. We marched to breakfast and came back and cleaned up our barracks. We were inspected.

00:40:42.480 - 00:40:59.340

and we either went to ground school or we went to the flight line. She's got to change. One tape's gone. So far your mother is wonderful.

00:41:00.920 - 00:41:20.880

She really does. She makes all the difference in the world. When you were in training at Avenger, tell me, go through a day's training. Well, we were either flying in the morning or the afternoon, depending on when we were doing ground school.

00:41:21.440 - 00:41:39.980

And so we got out to the operations. Our schedule was on the blackboard on what time we were flying and who our instructor would be. We usually had the same instructor, but that was always up there. and then we grabbed a parachute and headed out to the flight line with the instructor.

00:41:41.120 - 00:41:55.680

What was the first airplane you flew? The PT-19, which was a single monoplane. Do you recall your first instructor? Paul Bankston.

00:41:56.540 - 00:42:12.540

And your solo flight, did you do it from the main field or from an auxiliary field? From the main field. Any problems? No. The thing that was scary about flying was when we did night flying.

00:42:13.620 - 00:42:31.780

And you know some of the cadets from the other fields would come over and buzz our area. They finally had to put out an edict. Nobody was allowed in our flight pattern because if you were layered up, that was scary. Because if you were in different layers, well you did all this.

00:42:32.240 - 00:42:43.980

Did you do all your training at Sweetwater? And then flying, that made you nervous? Then take off and landing at night? That was nervous, yeah.

00:42:44.280 - 00:43:00.300

That was no fun. When you went into training, what were your expectations as far as the importance or non-importance of what you would be doing after you finished training? You know, I don't remember having any of those thoughts.

00:43:00.320 - 00:43:14.320

I was just where I wanted to be and I was enjoying it. I don't think I projected anything. In fact, I was missing almost everything going on around me. >> Were you aware of why they were using girls?

00:43:14.470 - 00:43:23.400

>> Oh sure, sure. Yeah. >> While you were there, did Miss Cochran ever come to visit? >> Oh, fairly frequently.

00:43:23.580 - 00:43:40.700

At first she would buzz in with her little beach, her stagger wing beach. She was a pretty glamorous gal coming in, tough as nails. One of my classes had a boyfriend who was in the Navy, a Naval pilot. He was stationed in Corpus.

00:43:41.840 - 00:43:51.700

Sometimes on the weekends he'd come over to see Gwen. We thought that was the most glamorous thing in the world because he'd come buzzing in on his plane. I don't know how he got by with that, but he did.

00:43:52.720 - 00:44:05.920

She married him. Later classes, he wouldn't have done that. Tell me what other things you did other than flying. We were studying.

00:44:06.540 - 00:44:23.900

What were you studying? We were studying meteorology, weather, aircraft identification. We didn't get our instrument ready, but we were doing link trainers. What is a link trainer?

00:44:24.080 - 00:44:49.640

It is a trainer that is set up as a realistic plane. You fly under the hood and it is controlled by a person sitting out and you're inside. He can give you all kinds of flight simulations that you're supposed to solve, like stalls. What was the makeup of the personnel who ran the base?

00:44:51.800 - 00:45:12.860

There were several women, as you know, like Dede and the administrative group. You know, I believe there was one woman instructor, I remember Woods was her name. They were all very nice. I never did see any resentment.

00:45:14.480 - 00:45:34.440

But as far as the commander of the base, that type of personnel, who were they? They were private operators that were operating. Did you have a commanding officer? Yes, I guess.

00:45:34.440 - 00:45:49.360

I don't remember. And was he military or civilian? I know we had officers for drill and marching and that sort of stuff, and some of the instructors were military.

00:45:49.640 - 00:45:59.560

Some of them were civilian. I don't remember the breakdown. Do you recall any Army check rides that you might have had? I certainly do.

00:46:00.220 - 00:46:10.160

And those were done by whom? The Army instructors. Tell me about one of those check rides. Well, they just did everything they could to throw you off.

00:46:10.640 - 00:46:22.840

And they were pretty rigid. When you were at Avenger, what were some of the rules? How could you get demerits? Well, you weren't supposed to date instructors.

00:46:24.360 - 00:46:41.840

And you weren't supposed to--let's say you had to come in at a certain time. And you know, the first time I ever saw Wasp drunk was one night. And we were all worried about her in our bay. And so some of the others went to the gate and they knew she wasn't in.

00:46:42.860 - 00:46:53.900

And they went to the gate to -- they got her in and she got her in the barracks and nobody ever knew any difference. Did any of the girls in your bay wash out? Oh, a lot of them.

00:46:54.600 - 00:47:14.280

I'll say in my bay -- one girl that I can remember, Lee Paganti, that was in our bay or she was in the next adjacent bay, she washed out. Do you know why she washed out? What were some of the reasons that would wash a girl out?

00:47:14.580 - 00:47:31.960

I don't know. There is an ex-WASP living here that was, she was not in my class. I didn't even know her. And she's had a stroke, so she's, you know, she had difficulty getting around and so forth. She was a CPT instructor and washed out. And she said her instructor didn't like the way she did stalls.

00:47:35.900 - 00:47:47.100

And I did have a--we had several friends now that I think about it. And, you know, they were just gone. It was--we didn't even stop to think about it. We were sorry, of course.

00:47:48.620 - 00:48:08.360

I started to say, "How did it make you feel when somebody washed out?" I was just sorry that it happened, and then we just went right on our business. We did not dwell on it, but I remember. Did you have anything unusual happen while you were flying?

00:48:13.360 - 00:48:29.200

Not really. I mean, accidents happen. I know one girl, some of them had forced landings. Those were episodes that we just didn't dwell on.

00:48:29.380 - 00:48:42.660

So I didn't put them in my memory bank. When you finished your primary training, then what did you do? Then we went into basic, the BT-13s. And what was that training predominantly for?

00:48:44.020 - 00:48:55.540

Well it was just going to a larger airplane. I mean, the BT-13 was a lot bigger. Well, not a lot, but it wasn't the PT-19. And it had the hatch top, and we'd get in big time,

00:48:55.540 - 00:49:03.240

we thought that. - Do you recall the auxiliary fields that described those? - Well, they were little country fields.

00:49:04.820 - 00:49:11.700

- And what were they used for? - For landings, practice landings, and some night flying. I remember doing some night flying

00:49:11.750 - 00:49:25.660

out of one of those fields. One time somebody said, "Who were you flying with last night?" He said, "Did he try anything? He's taking all these girls down to these auxiliary fields."

00:49:26.240 - 00:49:44.820

I remember being in there. If he made a pass, I was too dumb to know it. When you went to Avenger, what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make? Well, I guess being away from home and living a regiment that was a military, lots of rules.

00:49:45.240 - 00:50:03.480

But I never thought of them as rules. It just fit in with our schedule. >>Then when you finished your basic training, then what did you do? >>Then we went into AT-6s, our advanced plane, and also the UC-75s, the twin-engine Cessnas.

00:50:05.220 - 00:50:17.720

>>What were those used mainly for? You mean out of the service? This was twin-engine procedures and just twin-engine flying. Did you have some cross-country flying?

00:50:18.820 - 00:50:31.160

Tell me about a cross-country trip. The first cross-country trip, I was with John Henry, my primary instructor. I'm not sure. No, that was the AT-6.

00:50:31.580 - 00:50:42.580

Of course, I didn't live too far from Wichita Falls. He says, "Let's go. You want to buzz your house?" I told the whole family that I'd be over.

00:50:43.430 - 00:50:52.520

They were all out there. We got to Vernon, Texas. John Henry says, "Okay, Clark. Let's circle this town."

00:50:52.520 - 00:50:58.660

It was not Wichita Falls. It was Vernon. I was so embarrassed. I thought, "Maybe he won't know.

00:50:59.120 - 00:51:08.440

Maybe he won't know if I don't say anything." We finally got back to Wichita Falls. I really got razzed about that. >> And your folks were still out in the yard?

00:51:08.440 - 00:51:23.260

>> Yeah, they were still waving dish towels and everything else they could pick up. >> When you would go on cross country sometimes, would you be solo? >> Uh-huh. >> Do you remember, what was the longest cross country you took?

00:51:24.820 - 00:51:41.360

>> We'd fly a leg there, here, and a leg there, and probably a couple hours. Now, in instruments training we did, of course, that was at St. Joe. You didn't do yours there, did you? >> While you were still in training, some classes graduated.

00:51:42.760 - 00:51:56.480

What would happen on a graduation day as far as the ceremonies? >> They were all pretty typical. They had a band, usually one of the local or the area military bands. It was very formal.

00:51:57.520 - 00:52:12.460

We didn't even have uniforms when we graduated. >> What did you wear? khaki pants and a white shirt and just a little, what do you call them, caps. For those graduations, would there be dignitaries there?

00:52:14.360 - 00:52:32.220

And Cochran was always there. I mean, she was there when I graduated. When those classes, while you were still there, were you aware of what the graduates were doing after they left Avenger?

00:52:32.350 - 00:52:50.980

>> Well, I knew that you could make a choice of the service you wanted to go into. There weren't all that many services, but you could choose and hope you got it. You didn't always get what you wanted, or what you chose. For instance, there was Ferry Command and then there were towing targets.

00:52:51.660 - 00:53:05.460

I really don't even remember the other thing. The Ferry Command is what I wanted. I thought that was the best you could get. And luckily, that's what I chose and I got it, so I was thrilled to death with that.

00:53:06.820 - 00:53:14.400

Kelly: What was your graduation like? Did your family come? Tell me how proud that made them feel. Diveney: They were, they were.

00:53:15.900 - 00:53:22.980

I was glad to have them there. Kelly: Did they stay at the Blue Bonnet? Diveney: I don't know whether they went home that night. I don't remember.

00:53:23.340 - 00:53:37.020

>> Okay. So you had made your choice before graduation? >> Right. >> Okay. Did you have some time off then between graduation? What did you do?

00:53:37.150 - 00:53:42.700

>> Went home just for leave. That's when Virgie, you know, hurt her head. She was in Frankston. I was in Wichita Falls.

00:53:42.860 - 00:53:52.680

And Anne Brennan was in El Paso. The three of us got together in Dallas. And that's when we took the train to Detroit. We had never ridden a train that --

00:53:52.480 - 00:54:06.000

We didn't even know we had to change stations in Chicago. >> Did the three of you on purpose ask for the same station so you could be together? >> Well, I'm not sure we were worried about being together

00:54:06.130 - 00:54:18.300

since we all wanted to do the Ferry Command. >> What attracted you to the Ferry Command? >> Well, you did a lot of traveling. You got to fly different types of airplanes.

00:54:20.940 - 00:54:31.620

Do you recall what dignitaries came to your graduation? >> That's in the book. I don't remember. >> Okay. When you reported to Romulus, to whom did you report?

00:54:31.700 - 00:54:43.500

>> Well, we were supposed to report to the commanding officer at Romulus Air Force Base. And that's the day we were trying to get the stitches out of Burgess' head and trying to find out where this base was.

00:54:44.280 - 00:54:58.160

We thought, finally we decided we were in the wrong town. Well, we were in the wrong town, but Romulus, you know, It was real close, but a lot of people didn't even know about Romulus being there. And how had Virgie hurt her head?

00:54:58.540 - 00:55:11.340

On a horse. Thought she'd fallen off a horse in a home somewhere where she lived. I never met her parents. How did you three get together to go to Romulus?

00:55:11.420 - 00:55:29.660

We just met in Dallas. When you reported, then finally found the airbase and reported, to whom did you report? To the CO. I'm sure our artists read. Well, I'm not sure, but our artists that we had told us who to report to.

00:55:30.380 - 00:55:47.160

And the CO that you reported to was an Army officer? I'm sure, Air Force officer. Or we might have reported to the Wasp. The Wasp squadron was already in operation there. So we reported to Barbara Donahue, who was the squadron commander.

00:55:47.220 - 00:55:58.900

We might have just gone directly there because our operations officer was in the barracks and our apartments. We had apartments. CF: And were these apartments on the air base?

00:56:00.400 - 00:56:08.040

What was that apartment like? WD: Well, I think it was a two-story apartment. They weren't bad. a little primitive, but we had a kitchen.

00:56:11.260 - 00:56:35.160

Once you reported to the base, to the CO, what was your very first assignment? Well, I think we had to take--we went over to a flight--whatever they called it. We had to take transition time in different types of planes that we would probably be ferrying because they didn't send you out on an unfamiliar plane.

00:56:35.280 - 00:56:52.640

Of course, we flew different things all the time. Kelly: Do you remember what the first airplane was you flew, other than those training planes? Tell me about the first trip that you made. What kind of a ferrying assignment was it?

00:56:53.170 - 00:57:06.000

Dunn: I really don't know. I remember the first ferrying trip that I took as a flight leader. We had to go several times as a wingman. We'd have four or five people in a flight, sometimes a lot, but that happened very seldom.

00:57:07.780 - 00:57:28.220

The first flight I took as a flight director, I had two wingmen with me. We were picking up some planes, I've forgotten where, they were small planes, going to Dallas to the Civil Air Patrol. We had to R.O.N. in Oklahoma City.

00:57:30.160 - 00:57:43.420

This was Christmas. I had never been away from home Christmas. You would have thought I had lost my whole life that day. Anyway, one of the girls was getting ready to take off going to Dallas, and she got behind

00:57:43.480 - 00:57:55.740

a B-17 in the prop wash. She got a wing tip, and so she should never have been there. Of course, I was responsible for her. She didn't ask me.

00:57:55.820 - 00:58:13.460

We spent Christmas in Oklahoma City against our will. We had to spend two or three days there while they repaired the aircraft. It wasn't a bad tear, but when she got the wingtip, that's what it boiled down to. Vicky: So when someone would have an accident like that, the rest of you would stay with

00:58:13.460 - 00:58:16.480

them? Ruthie: Oh yeah, the flights stayed together. Vicky: Always. Okay.

00:58:17.080 - 00:58:29.500

And how did you celebrate Christmas? Ruthie: Calling home and crying because I wasn't home. And you know, I found out years later that I could have been home Christmas because I could have gotten a bus.

00:58:29.540 - 00:58:36.220

Oklahoma City is not far from Wichita Falls at all. Never occurred to me. Nobody told me anyway. [Laughter]

00:58:36.220 - 00:58:42.720

>> So where did you stay in Oklahoma City? >> We were in the, I don't know. >> On the base? >> No, we stayed in a hotel.

00:58:43.080 - 00:58:56.780

There's Skirbin or the Mayo or something, I've forgotten. >> When you would go out on a flight with a couple of wingmen and stuff, was it always just WASP? No, it really wasn't.

00:58:56.860 - 00:59:11.780

At the first of the war, we were flying so much in Canada. I remember one year we were flying P-26s. The Canadian version of the PT-19 had a hatch top. I bet you there were 20 of us mixed.

00:59:13.520 - 00:59:40.800

We were going all across the northern part of the United States. I think we delivered those planes either in Calgary or went on down to British Columbia that way. What were they using those planes for? They were for Canada for training races. While you were at Romulus, did you get temporary orders to go someplace else for training?

00:59:41.330 - 00:59:58.120

We went to Orlando for the officer's training course. We went to Rosecrans Field in Missouri for our instrument rating. >> Describe the temporary duty to Orlando. What was that all about?

00:59:58.120 - 01:00:07.900

>> Well, it was on an Air Force base. It was just a vacation time for us because we were in ground school all the time. In fact, I think the atom bomb was dropped while we were there.

01:00:08.460 - 01:00:22.360

>> Okay. What was the purpose of that training? >> Well, it's what most of the cadets went through before they went to officer's training school. and all logistics and aircraft identification, a lot of related courses.

01:00:22.960 - 01:00:32.480

Carol: Was it just for WASP? Ruth: No, we just went on the men's course. There were very few of us. We had one barracks of us.

01:00:32.900 - 01:00:45.040

Carol: Did some of the girls go with you from Romulus or were you by yourself? Ruth: I think there were several that went from Romulus. Carol: How long did that course last? Ruth: Probably a month.

01:00:45.820 - 01:00:57.800

I'm not sure, but I believe it must have been. >> Do you think that was a worthwhile thing? >> I loved it. It was a good -- it was really basically an orientation course,

01:00:58.300 - 01:01:07.000

and yeah, it was very interesting. >> Okay. Was that the first temporary duty that you got while you were at Romulus, or did you go to -- >> I believe -- I might have gone

01:01:07.000 - 01:01:19.840

to instrument school before that, but I'm not sure. >> Okay. Describe the instrument training that you got. >> We flew DC-3s, took our training in DC-3s, and we stayed in barracks on the field,

01:01:20.260 - 01:01:31.880

Rosecrans Air Force Base. And a friend of mine, we flew to St. Louis one night. This was like 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning. We flew to St. Louis.

01:01:31.960 - 01:01:39.000

She was my co-pilot going over there, and I was her co-pilot coming back. And we thought that was big stuff. That was a huge airplane to us.

01:01:40.920 - 01:01:48.920

Was that training strictly for WASP or were there? >> No, there was a mixed group. >> Okay, military. >> Military, Air Force.

01:01:49.190 - 01:02:07.420

>> Okay. Then did you go to any other schools? >> Some of the girls went to pursuit school in Brownsville. I never did go, I never did fly pursuit. >> Okay. Was that your choice or they just?

01:02:08.080 - 01:02:28.600

At one time, they were cutting back, and that was towards the end of the war. I did quite a bit of co-piloting at that time on B-24s and with Mrs. McElroy on the PVYs. It was a picture we had. >> Who was Mrs. McElroy?

01:02:28.600 - 01:02:33.500

>> She was our operations officer at Romney. She was one of the originals. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah.

01:02:33.530 - 01:02:44.960

>> Okay. 10,000 hours there at that time. >> And when you were copilot on some of the bombers, what would be the purpose of those trips?

01:02:45.040 - 01:02:59.860

>> Well, we would, one at a time, we picked up a plane in, oh, I've forgotten, say, Indiana, and then we took it to Mississippi, it was modified, and we took it somewhere else. And a lot of these planes were being shipped overseas,

01:03:01.080 - 01:03:16.440

or flown overseas, but some of them had to be modified. I can't remember what the modification existed of at that time. >> When you would take a plane to Canada, how was that different from when you would take a plane and deliver it someplace in the United States?

01:03:17.320 - 01:03:29.840

>> Well, the weather, one thing, and we didn't have heaters. Lots of times it weren't hooked up. I can remember one winter, it was so cold. There were a bunch of us, a mixed group.

01:03:31.780 - 01:03:46.340

We sat out on the flight line and the oil was so cold, the oil was congealing. So we had to wait for somebody to come by and start our planes. We didn't have winter flying equipment. We were using the men's stuff and of course it didn't fit us at all.

01:03:48.920 - 01:04:05.560

Then we were in a hotel, the Mount Royal Hotel, and we'd sit out there freezing to death. If we ever got to the flight line, if we did not, we would sit and play poker or play bridge or in the operations officer all day waiting for a weather report. Because you had to be ready.

01:04:05.560 - 01:04:14.500

You couldn't go in. It was too far to go into town and go back out. You just had to be ready to go during flying time. But then when we did get up, it was wonderful to fly.

01:04:16.220 - 01:04:36.660

We had an air escape one time. We went into a field that was closed, but we didn't get an accurate weather report, which you couldn't always get in those early days. So we had to slip these, these were the Harvards, the Canadian AT6, and we had to slip in to

01:04:36.680 - 01:04:49.560

get them in the runways, and of course, they came tearing out there. We weren't supposed to be, it was a closed field. I'm sure they were doing radar research or installation or whatever they had, but they were furious.

01:04:49.900 - 01:05:02.640

They really ate us out. There wasn't any place for us to go, so that's where we went. It turned out they gave us a party that night, so they decided they liked us after all. They took a dim view of our arrival, I'll tell you.

01:05:03.730 - 01:05:21.320

>> Inasmuch as the WASPs were pretty much restricted to the United States, how far into Canada were you able to fly? Montreal and clear up to Calgary. Let's see, on the West Coast,

01:05:21.440 - 01:05:36.160

where did we go? Vancouver. But you know, some of the women flew P-39s. I forgot where they, well, I guess they switched it in Great Falls.

01:05:37.020 - 01:05:56.960

They met the women Russian pilots They took things on across the Bering Sea and all the northern route. What was the most interesting flight that you took as a ferry pilot? Well interesting or scary?

01:05:58.340 - 01:06:12.800

Well we'll do one of each. They were all interesting, but I enjoyed the camaraderie. We all got together at the hotel afterwards and we'd been flying all day. We just did all kinds of things in Montreal.

01:06:12.940 - 01:06:30.060

I used to love that place. I can remember sitting around the U.S.O. or the Red Cross office in South Bend, Indiana. That was kind of on our route if we were going from east to west, which is what we usually were doing.

01:06:31.020 - 01:06:47.200

I can remember that we could see the dome, the Golden Dome of Notre Dame. They had a wonderful Red Cross office there at the airport. We had wonderful sandwiches. I sat in a place a couple of weeks waiting for the weather to get out.

01:06:48.260 - 01:07:04.000

We had to have pretty good weather conditions if we didn't have a radio to be cleared out. Those were rules for the Ferry Command. If you weren't on the ground before 45 minutes before dark, then you were not to clear out

01:07:04.080 - 01:07:22.480

to begin with. >> When you were weathered in somewhere, where would you stay? >> Well, at the barracks if we could get a place, but lots of times in a hotel in town. >> When you delivered an aircraft, how did you get back to your base?

01:07:23.900 - 01:07:48.560

We had a number one priority or whatever that was, the highest priority you could have, to go back to usually Chicago. Then one of our match planes would pick us up. One time we took a trip, let's see, we took something in Canada and we took them into

01:07:48.680 - 01:08:03.380

Newark. lot of that fly into Newark because that's where they took the, moved the wings and were shipped overseas. And so we had, they rented a whole train car for us to go back to, I guess we went back

01:08:03.380 - 01:08:15.040

to Detroit. And- >> During the time that you were faring, were you aware of the importance of what you were doing?

01:08:15.040 - 01:08:28.440

>> I thought we were doing a good thing, but you know, I didn't dwell on that very much. I don't remember sitting around thinking about that. I knew we were needed. >> Okay. During the time you were at Romulus,

01:08:28.820 - 01:08:40.980

what was your social life like? >> Well, you mean dating and all that stuff? Well, if you had a date, you might not see this person ever again because you were on the road all the time.

01:08:41.580 - 01:08:52.240

And so you didn't do -- oh, I dated a couple of guys, but I might see them one month, and I didn't see them for six months because they were out flying. You know, they were in the Ferry Division also.

01:08:54.420 - 01:09:06.040

And, you know, they were going in one direction and I was going in another direction. Our social life, if we had a mixed group, it didn't make any difference to me whether it was mixed or not. But we gathered at the hotel and we had a ball.

01:09:07.280 - 01:09:15.180

>> Now tell me about the scariest flight you had. >> Well, I'm one of the scariest planes. I don't know where I was. I don't even know what I was in.

01:09:15.180 - 01:09:23.920

but the engine head temperature was going up, and so I was kind of alarmed. And then I was getting a little oil, so I knew I had an oil leak.

01:09:24.680 - 01:09:35.440

And I was close to an airport, luckily, so by the time I got in, I was scared to death. By the time I slowed the plane down, of course, the oil wasn't going that way.

01:09:35.440 - 01:09:43.660

It was going right on the windshield, and I absolutely could not see one thing. Anyway, that was scary until I got it down. It took them a couple days to fix that.

01:09:43.680 - 01:10:02.600

And another time I was in Dallas flying something, I don't remember what it was, and I couldn't get the landing gear up. And it was almost dusk, and I wasn't supposed to be out that late anyway. So they had to put some ties up to put the plane on to check the landing gear.

01:10:02.660 - 01:10:18.800

It was okay. I felt pretty silly that time. And then the last trip I took was the 20-inch in Cessna from Wright-Patterson Field to Tarrant Field, I believe, in Fort Worth, the graveyard.

01:10:20.000 - 01:10:37.300

I got flat lost, and I had a radio, just lost as can be. And you know, the fuel warning light goes off 20 minutes before. You'd better be on the ground, but you've got 20 minutes reserved. That warning light was on, and I was, I wasn't as scared as I'd be now, but I thought, "How

01:10:37.300 - 01:10:48.840

I finally found an airport in Long Sturdy Field. It was in Rolla, Missouri. I'll never forget that place. And of course, they did not have a flight plan for me.

01:10:49.480 - 01:11:01.860

They didn't expect me. I was trying to get to Oklahoma City, actually. I've never been so glad to see it. I bought some ice cream and some Oreo cookies, and that's what I had for lunch.

01:11:01.900 - 01:11:17.200

And then I headed for Oklahoma City and ran into one of our gals there. So that was so scary. >> Were there ever any of the WASPs injured or killed while you were at Romulus in your group?

01:11:17.660 - 01:11:35.780

>> My best friend, Hazel Ying Lee, the Chinese girl, she was killed at Great Falls. And I believe I was on a trip, I think this PBY trip, maybe the one that they describe in this book, we were in Nebraska somewhere. That was just such a tragic accident.

01:11:36.480 - 01:11:47.980

That really tore me up because she was a really good friend. We had gone through training together. We were based at the same place. So, what was she like?

01:11:48.360 - 01:12:06.700

Wonderful, just a wonderful person. She was, of course, olive skin, not dark at all. And she'd say, "Let's see, Clark, you're white meat and I'm dark meat." And she visited my home one time, and after the WASP squadron was disbanded, or the whole

01:12:06.740 - 01:12:16.740

organization was disbanded, we were going to go to, I don't know what we were going to do, but we were going to get in her car and drive to California. I didn't have a car. Hardly anybody had a car then.

01:12:17.440 - 01:12:33.760

And of course, that never took place. >> Do you know why she had the accident? It was a mid-air collision, and I don't know whether she pulled up into it. They were coming in on a landing, two planes.

01:12:34.860 - 01:12:52.360

And I think there was a guy from Dallas flying one of the pursuit planes, a P-39, I think. And either she or he just pulled up into her and had a mid-air collision. What was she flying? Probably a P-39.

01:12:52.380 - 01:13:02.280

I'm not sure. I don't remember which. Were you on the base when that happened? I was in Nebraska somewhere.

01:13:04.900 - 01:13:24.160

Do you know what transpired after that happened as far as her body? I guess one of our girls went to accompany her body back to New York. Her funeral was in New York City, I believe. She had a sister living there.

01:13:26.640 - 01:13:49.080

Her husband, she married while we were there, while we were in Romulus. In fact, I think they were married at the Waldorf Astoria. He was a Chinese officer, Air Force officer. She lost track of him even before she died, because I never knew what happened to him.

01:13:50.560 - 01:14:01.600

So it was kind of a chore. Somebody had to go get her car, take it to New York. None of us could go to the funeral, of course, and I don't even remember what kind of funeral she had.

01:14:01.840 - 01:14:07.700

Chinese, I guess. [Laughter] >> Okay. Were you ever pilot and co-pilot together?

01:14:08.200 - 01:14:14.780

>> No, we never flew together. >> Okay. But in Orlando, did you-- >> She was not in Orlando when I was.

01:14:14.800 - 01:14:25.640

I don't remember her being there. She could have been, I just don't remember. Are there any other incidents that happened while you were at Romulus that you would like to tell us about?

01:14:27.360 - 01:14:50.600

Dunn: I really—I just—busy, busy going in and out all the time. And you'd get your orders and you'd head on out for wherever you were going. You'd take an airline or you'd take our shuttle to wherever the base was. I was going to ask you on some of those trips when you unexpectedly were weathered in for

01:14:50.720 - 01:15:12.200

days, how did you manage about your clothing, for example? Because you had such a limited space to take -- Well, see, I didn't fly a pursuit plane, so a lot of us had more space. Of course, we had to take our parachutes with us every time and then a B-4 bag, so that

01:15:12.200 - 01:15:28.460

was never really a problem. I read an article about Florian Watson Miller putting her high heels in a plane. >> Tell me how you would manage that parachute. You had to take it with you, then did you have to bring it back?

01:15:28.960 - 01:15:47.960

>> It was yours and you were responsible for it. I remember I had to ship one back. When I think. I can't remember the circumstance. I think I ended up in Albuquerque.

01:15:48.060 - 01:15:56.720

We had bad weather. Of course, I couldn't get to Wichita Falls. I just kept getting further away. So finally I just got on a train in Albuquerque and came back.

01:15:57.940 - 01:16:09.420

And then I had to ship my parachute back to the base. >> When you were at Romulus, were you ever able to borrow an airplane and go home? >> No. >> No.

01:16:09.420 - 01:16:20.540

>> No, that didn't happen. >> Some of them did. I guess. I don't know. >> Okay. What do you recall about when you first heard

01:16:20.620 - 01:16:31.120

that the WASPs would be disbanded? >> You know, I just don't have the feelings that most WASPs have. I mean, I was tired, and I was ready to go home

01:16:31.120 - 01:16:39.900

and do something else. And, you know, I hear all of their stories at various times in reading. They said, "Oh, there were all these planes waiting

01:16:39.900 - 01:16:54.300

to be delivered, and we were available to do them, and we couldn't do them, and the men didn't like us and all that stuff. I guess they didn't, but I thought it was the greatest privilege in the world is to learn to fly and do something you loved and somebody else paid for it.

01:16:54.460 - 01:17:08.060

I could never have done it if the government hadn't done it. So I don't really resent any of that, but I can see why some of the girls, when they were -- that they'd just gotten out, and they weren't ready to get out. But there was a political thing.

01:17:09.300 - 01:17:22.860

What was the longest ferried flight you had? We had one that lasted thirty days, but that was bad weather. All across the northern part of the United States and Canada. I guess that might have been the one we went into Vancouver.

01:17:25.240 - 01:17:52.060

When you would go to Canada, was there a factory at Romulus where you picked up airplanes? There was a factory at Niagara Falls, and there was a factory in Montreal. I believe those might have been--and they're somewhere else, because they were doing the British Harbor and the PT-26 and the Noradine.

01:17:52.260 - 01:18:07.660

What was that plane? Norseman, they built that. That was at a plant and an airport in Montreal. Was there ever a time that they gave you a mission that you felt was just impossible

01:18:07.880 - 01:18:22.880

to fly? I never thought about turning one down, but they were pretty darn sure that we had some transition time. It might be just two or three hours that we were checked out on the plane before they

01:18:23.020 - 01:18:30.760

let us go. Right. When they would give you that transition time, would it be a WASP who would check you out? No, it was always an Army officer.

01:18:32.840 - 01:18:48.660

When you were disbanded, did Romulus do anything special for you guys? Well, we just, that party we had I showed you the pictures of. And we did, there was a dance at the old club. Any kind of commendation type?

01:18:49.060 - 01:18:55.260

I don't remember. Well, see, the war was still going on. It was just, this was not an ending for them. It was just for us.

01:18:57.420 - 01:19:14.560

So in the meantime, tell me about the uniforms that you were wearing. Well, of course, we just wore -- we got out -- when I reported to Romulus, I had some -- what do they call them? Some pink gabardine pants made for me and a khaki shirt, and that's what we wore for

01:19:14.560 - 01:19:27.980

a while until we got our uniforms, and then we got the blue ones. And what was your opinion of the blue uniforms that you wore? I liked them. I think she suited me just fine.

01:19:29.000 - 01:19:33.560

Hattie Carnegie designed those. Who? Hattie Carnegie. Oh, okay.

01:19:34.660 - 01:19:44.120

How did she know that? Yeah. [Laughter] And how did you know who Hattie Carnegie was?

01:19:44.380 - 01:19:53.280

Who is she? Well, she was just a designer, a well-known designer. Do you know what stores she mainly designed for? I think she just designed for the trade.

01:19:54.400 - 01:20:18.900

So she designed for us and then we had, I guess they took our marriage and they were shipped to us. >> When you left Romulus when you were disbanded, where did you go? >> I stayed in Michigan because McElroy, one of the originalists, she was living there. She was married and had children and had always been married.

01:20:18.900 - 01:20:37.040

She was older than most of us. So I stayed there and Pat Dickerson and I got an apartment close to her house. She was instructing at the time. I did an instructor's written there and then started doing it on the flight.

01:20:37.140 - 01:20:55.900

Then I just decided to go on home and finish there. So I did finish that, but the day I was supposed to take the flight test in Wichita Falls, The inspector was coming from Dallas and the plane was down. That plane was down for a couple of weeks and I got to thinking, I had already done

01:20:55.960 - 01:21:07.420

the writ and I could have done the flight easily, but I decided I just don't want to do that anymore. But anyway, I did stay in Michigan and we messed around. I don't know what we did really.

01:21:07.720 - 01:21:25.640

We did fly, that's where we got some work for this guy that was getting ready for all these planes going into storage in the graveyards in Fort Worth. We took some planes to Ponca City, which is just seventy miles from here. What kind of planes were those?

01:21:25.980 - 01:21:37.580

Mostly they were the primary trainers. Not necessarily because one of them was this twin-engine Cessna, and I don't remember what the others were. I didn't take but several of those trips because the planes were in pretty bad shape, actually.

01:21:37.680 - 01:21:51.180

They had gone through the war. And then how long did you stay in the Romulus area? Maybe six months, maybe not even that long. It wasn't very long.

01:21:53.880 - 01:22:11.220

Then where did you go from there? I went back home and went to work for American Airlines in Dallas. A lot of my friends were working, and so we had a ball living in Dallas. I worked as a ticket agent at the Baker Hotel.

01:22:14.140 - 01:22:19.280

We're through with another film. Okay, we're going to change tapes. Change tapes. Okay.

01:22:19.480 - 01:22:25.600

Okay. Moving right along here. Wow. I'm talking to you all's arm off.

01:22:25.720 - 01:22:30.680

No, that's good. No. You're doing great, Grace. You remember all kinds of stuff.

01:22:30.960 - 01:22:38.600

I didn't know I could remember. You remember. I'm going to tweak this light while you go ahead and talk. Are you rolling?

01:22:38.600 - 01:22:50.660

Yeah. When you came to Dallas, tell me about working for the airlines. Well, my sister and a cousin and two or three other people were already living in Dallas. She was working at Neiman's as a buyer.

01:22:52.100 - 01:23:08.300

She worked for American at one time, but then I applied for the ticket office. We really had a good time. We had an apartment in Dallas. There were about five of us living in that apartment. >> Were some of them ex-WASPs?

01:23:08.850 - 01:23:22.500

>> No. >> All civilians. >> One of my friends was delivering. This was way after the war. She was delivering something from Newark to L.A., and she came by Dallas and spent the night with us.

01:23:22.500 - 01:23:32.400

It was like Grand Central Station, you know. All our friends coming in and out of the apartment. And so I flew to California with her. I can't even remember what that was.

01:23:32.400 - 01:23:41.660

It was a wonderful little airplane, a civilian airplane. >> Then how long did you work as a ticket agent? >> Four years. Met Charlie.

01:23:41.830 - 01:23:49.020

>> I was going to say, did you meet somebody special? >> Met Charlie. >> How did you meet Charlie? >> Well, I had a cousin living in Bonham, Texas.

01:23:49.280 - 01:23:56.520

And he was just out of the Navy. He stayed in two years after the war. What did he do in the Navy? He was a pilot.

01:23:56.720 - 01:24:15.300

He was flying naval air transport. In fact, he was based in Honolulu for I don't know how long, for a year at least. So he was in Bonham trying to decide what he wanted to do. Before the war he had started engineering school and really didn't have enough to make

01:24:15.300 - 01:24:32.340

any difference when he got back. He volunteered and he was lucky because he didn't have a college degree at that time that they were taking people that weren't college degree for training. But they were going to the bottom of the barrel trying to get people for training.

01:24:32.420 - 01:24:53.200

So he took a comprehensive mental test and passed it. So that's what he was doing, but he was just at home before he went back to school. So he started back from scratch almost and went to A&M. >> Okay. Was he in Dallas when you met him?

01:24:53.500 - 01:25:04.200

>> He was -- he lived in Bonham, which is about 90 miles, 60 miles away, so I had this cousin there, so I would -- so he would come down to Dallas, and then he was going to school in Arlington, the University of Texas Arlington.

01:25:04.640 - 01:25:14.440

Well, Arlington, I guess it was just Arlington State College because that was before it was part of the University of Texas. So he stayed there for two years, and then --

01:25:14.440 - 01:25:27.280

or maybe not two years. We married on Thanksgiving, and then we both went down to A&M. He finished college there. What were the qualities that you saw in him that made you fall in love?

01:25:29.200 - 01:25:47.800

I don't know. We were interested in the same things, which was mostly flying at that point. That was a lost feeling when you get out. Nobody would live the life you led, and there wasn't any way to... It was kind of hard to communicate, except I could with my family and these friends that I had known for years and years.

01:25:49.460 - 01:26:02.760

But I guess those were the main qualities. Tell me about your wedding. It was a small wedding at home, and I just wanted to get married. But Mother said, "You can't just get married."

01:26:02.760 - 01:26:12.500

I said, "Well, you plan it, but just keep it simple, please." [Laughter] So it was just family at home and a beautiful wedding. Well, family is big.

01:26:13.540 - 01:26:29.700

There were quite a few people there. Went to Mineral Wells, went back to, we went to College Station and we had about two days at Mineral Wells, the crazy hotel, remember that? And ended up in College Station.

01:26:29.860 - 01:26:43.440

We, oh gosh, we lived in a Quonset hut first. Then we moved into some barracks on the college campus. >> What were his ambitions at that point? >> Well, he would love to continue to fly.

01:26:43.580 - 01:27:01.440

He could have stayed in, but he knew that he could not advance as far as he wanted to go without a college degree. So he was engineering, and he got an engineering degree and a mechanical engineering degree. He finished A&M, then where did you two go?

01:27:01.590 - 01:27:12.760

Went to work for Phyllis Petroleum. That's how we ended up here. But he went to work for Phyllis Petroleum at the Sweeney Refinery in South Texas. The Phyllis's biggest refinery is there.

01:27:12.860 - 01:27:30.260

We stayed there 28 years. There are people here that have been in and out of this town five times. He could have gone to Norway when they were expanding so fast, but we didn't want to take children and we loved that little town.

01:27:33.380 - 01:27:46.160

>> When did you have your first child? >> She was a little aggy. Eleven months after we married. In the barracks we'd wake up in the mornings at 4 o'clock or 5 o'clock, whenever the Aggie

01:27:46.300 - 01:27:52.760

band was practicing. Laura was right there with us. Tiny little apartment. We were happy as larks there.

01:27:53.380 - 01:28:07.580

There were a bunch of G.I.s there, you know. I was going to ask you, before you had that child, how did you spend your time when he was in school? Well, there was hardly any time, about three months before I got pregnant.

01:28:07.700 - 01:28:19.520

I was so sick. Most of the time flat on my back. And so then Laura was born two and a half years later. There at A&M?

01:28:19.620 - 01:28:32.680

No, no, he had graduated. She was born in, actually she was born in a Houston hospital, but we were living in Bay City with Phillips. And then how long was it before you had another child?

01:28:32.780 - 01:28:44.800

Two and a half years. We just had the two daughters. and she was born in Bay City. As those two little girls were growing up, what were you involved in?

01:28:45.460 - 01:28:56.320

Mostly just taking care of them. When we moved to Sweeney, I did substitute teaching for about 12 years when the girls were in school. What did you teach?

01:28:57.360 - 01:29:11.340

Anything that came along. I did some English, I did a maternity leave for about two months for an English teacher, junior English. But mostly it was just you never knew what you were going to be doing.

01:29:12.020 - 01:29:24.800

And how were you involved with their activities and what were they involved in in school as they grew up? Oh, nothing like what the kids do today, but they were busy with their, oh they took dancing and they took all the stuff that little girls take.

01:29:25.400 - 01:29:36.560

And we lived on a block with twenty kids, twenty-two kids in that block. It was paradise. We took care of all of them. A lot of my friends played bridge.

01:29:37.560 - 01:29:44.480

And I said, "I'm not going to play bridge because somebody's got to take care of these kids on the street." They said, "You're so pious." I said, "That's all right."

01:29:45.740 - 01:30:08.600

So anyway, we had lots of good friends, still have them, that haven't died. How was your husband involved with kids? Was he involved with their school activities, for example? Yes, and they were in plays and just the stuff that kids learned. Laura was interested in dramatics and that sort of thing.

01:30:10.880 - 01:30:24.380

At this point, were their grandparents still alive? My mother was, and Charlie's parents were alive, but they were not doing too well. They came down probably a couple times a year. We lived in Sweeney.

01:30:26.060 - 01:30:32.620

My mother did. She loved coming down there. >> Then how long did you live there? >> About 28 years.

01:30:33.500 - 01:30:48.920

>> What made you decide to come back to Bartlesville? >> We were transferred. Charlie was offered this transfer and I said, "Take it. Gosh, I'm not sure he had a choice."

01:30:48.920 - 01:31:03.940

I was a promotion for him. I loved living in Sweeney, but I hated that climate. I wasn't sure I'd leave the cockroaches and all the humidity. This is the best place anybody could live, without a doubt.

01:31:05.420 - 01:31:26.340

What year did you move to Barnsley? We moved here in '81. Now at this point in your life, what are you involved with? I'm from a new PEO chapter. I'm sure you know PEO chapters from Waco. I belong to a PEO chapter here. I belong to a study club.

01:31:27.360 - 01:31:48.360

And I used to go to church circles, but I just go to church now. And there are about five widows in this town. We go out to dinner a lot. I'm one of the two drivers that drive at night anymore. But it's easy. You know, we've got places to go. And what's the Christmas like now for you?

01:31:49.300 - 01:32:07.960

Well this Christmas I stayed here. I say by myself. I wasn't by myself The girls about had a hissy, but but I just didn't feel like All that traffic and all the waiting, you know going to Michigan or to Amarillo And of course, I want them to stay their kids are in college and and they they want to be there with their friends

01:32:08.000 - 01:32:48.180

And that's where they ought to be. So that did not bother me a bit. It bothered them but girls now? Different as night and day. Laura, the first one, she's teaching eighth grade English in Amarillo. She's married to a man who works for IBM. They have one son who's graduating this year from A&M and a daughter who's a sophomore at Tech. And then Barbara married a little bit later in life than Laura did. She married a man that had been married and had a ten year old son, well an eight year old I guess then. Anyway, they all live in Ann Arbor.

01:32:49.620 - 01:33:00.620

And so he -- so they have -- John's got a 20-year-old son, and they have a 10-year-old son. So there's a 20-year gap. The same father, and John's 10 years older than Barbara.

01:33:00.780 - 01:33:11.860

And the reason she ended up in Michigan is that she was in a physician assistant program at Baylor after she got out of college. And one of her friends lived in Toledo or somewhere in that area,

01:33:11.890 - 01:33:22.720

and she was -- they were both working at the VA hospital in Houston and decided so. The girl that lived in that area went back and she said, "Lynn," and she said, "Call Barbara."

01:33:22.720 - 01:33:29.120

She said, "There's an opening. Why don't you come on up here?" So Barbara went. We had a hairy drive up there.

01:33:29.240 - 01:33:43.480

The worst weather we had in ages. I stormed the whole way. So she's working now with a group of gastroenterologists. She was at St. Joseph's Hospital in Ann Arbor for quite a few years.

01:33:43.580 - 01:33:59.940

So she's done this, she's 48 years old. Loves what she does and they have this 10 year old son. Did either of your daughters ever have an inclination to fly? Do you know, I don't even know they knew, I don't even know they knew I flew for ages

01:34:00.120 - 01:34:05.880

and ages. We never talked about it. Is that common? It is?

01:34:07.540 - 01:34:13.900

People are always surprised. They say, "I didn't know you did that." And I say, "You didn't ask." I don't like to talk.

01:34:14.420 - 01:34:23.240

I talk about myself all afternoon. I'm not used to this. >> Well, in your family, was not your husband the hero? >> What did you say?

01:34:23.980 - 01:34:33.260

>> In your family, when your girls were growing up, did they know about your husband having been a pilot? >> I guess. I'm not sure what they knew.

01:34:34.660 - 01:34:47.260

He was an engineer when they knew him. >> Okay. And your grandchildren, do any of them, Are they inclined to want to learn to fly? >> Actually, one of my son-in-laws would like to fly.

01:34:47.340 - 01:35:04.060

And the kids saw this -- oh, it was a program that I taped here in town with -- it's a local cable one station here. And so I had a friend who told -- they wanted a program for this channel, local stuff.

01:35:04.100 - 01:35:12.620

And she asked this guy, I said, "I know somebody that might do a program." I said, "Ferrie, I don't want to do a program." Anyway, I did a program.

01:35:12.620 - 01:35:20.080

It worked out all right. So, then everybody in town got interested in this. And, that really surprises me. I'm not being naive.

01:35:20.190 - 01:35:26.980

It really surprised me. We're relics. And, I didn't know of all the -- and then, so, I sent this tape to the children.

01:35:27.060 - 01:35:32.020

I have a friend, a doctor friend here, and he said, "I'm going to make you some videos to send to the girls." So, I did.

01:35:32.700 - 01:35:43.100

And, so, the grandson says, "Oh, cool." They didn't know. They were not aware of this at all, I don't guess. I know the WASP have conventions occasionally.

01:35:43.620 - 01:35:59.300

Tell me how you have been involved with the WASP organization. I haven't been able to do anything. I just go to the meetings, the reunions. And did your husband go to conventions with you?

01:35:59.320 - 01:36:08.720

He loved them. He didn't miss one. Well, one, he was in China and couldn't go. when Virgie and I got back together.

01:36:09.600 - 01:36:18.260

I said, "Virgie got to use his ticket." And so she came here from Dallas. She was living in Louisiana then. And she came here and then we flew to Washington.

01:36:18.820 - 01:36:33.580

And Mary was one of them that went with us. And I don't know whether Betty Smith did, but Mary Helen did. And so that's how we all got back together again. >> Okay. When the WASPs were trying to get veteran status,

01:36:33.730 - 01:36:45.460

were you involved at all with that? >> No, I wasn't. some of the girls that were, but no, I was not. >> Can you describe for me how you feel about your peers?

01:36:47.980 - 01:37:02.600

What kind of camaraderie do you have with other WASPs? >> Well, actually, I didn't see many of them. I didn't see Virgie for 50 years in there, but Mary's kind of brought me into the fold of the Tulsa group.

01:37:03.720 - 01:37:17.700

And in fact, this last October, you know, when they honored us, that was fun because I didn't really do it. I never went to Oshkosh. I never got together with them except at the reunions.

01:37:19.740 - 01:37:28.560

And so Mary's been -- I've enjoyed that. And they're going to come over for lunch someday. And we went over not long ago. Mary picked me up, which was very nice of her.

01:37:28.860 - 01:37:36.020

I appreciate that. >> Good. Grace, now what makes you happy? Lots of things.

01:37:36.680 - 01:37:46.740

I'm basically a happy person. If the kids are okay and well and and you know I read a lot.

01:37:48.720 - 01:38:00.080

In looking back over your life there have been happy times and there must have been some sad times. What has gotten you through the sad times?

01:38:01.320 - 01:38:14.880

>> Well, the saddest time was Charlie was sick for so long. >> And what got you through that? >> You just get through it. And being a widow is, you know, nobody wants to be a widow.

01:38:15.700 - 01:38:27.080

But, you know, to wish that he could have lived longer, it would have been selfish because he was really, had a really bad time for the last three or four years. And so he was at peace and you just go on with your life.

01:38:27.180 - 01:38:38.880

But I've got a lot of friends here that are very supportive. and I enjoy other women. I enjoy men too, but you don't see too many. I do have a long-time friend that we sit together

01:38:38.880 - 01:38:50.340

in church every Sunday. His wife died about seven years ago of cancer, and so I'm supposed to keep him awake, and I never do. He sleeps every Sunday.

01:38:52.080 - 01:39:05.260

But anyway, good friends are just so important. >> And looking back over your life, other than your two daughters, what is the one thing that you've done that you're most proud of?

01:39:07.160 - 01:39:12.480

>> Well, you said other than daughters. Being a mother was the most important thing to me. >> Right. >> And boy, I gave it my all.

01:39:12.640 - 01:39:19.660

>> Yeah. >> And they're wonderful. >> Right. >> But I guess flying, but just being like, I don't, you know,

01:39:19.860 - 01:39:31.320

that's the only thing I can think of, just doing something, being able to do something you liked and wanting to do it and then you could do it. If it hadn't been for the war, which is a horrible thing to say, it would never have

01:39:31.600 - 01:39:36.900

taken place. I could never have done that. >> Right. What do you think the WASP accomplished?

01:39:37.610 - 01:40:04.180

>> Oh, I think they filled a real need at the time because they were losing so many pilots so fast that they needed, I think we were needed up to a point. then got to be a political thing and I can understand the men's point. They didn't want to go from flying status back to being a private with no flying status.

01:40:04.900 - 01:40:17.780

So I just thought of it as an opportunity for the women and when it was over, it was over. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? That women can do anything they want to do that they have a chance to do.

01:40:19.900 - 01:40:36.780

things that were forbidden for women for so long. That started it all, but then the girls, the females are doing anything now in planes. My gosh, having babies and going right on. We talked to a little girl in San Diego.

01:40:37.540 - 01:40:51.460

You said you didn't go to that. We talked to one of the girls there, and they didn't know what to do when they got pregnant. So she flew as long as she could fly until her stomach got in the way of the stick. And they had to make rules, kind of, that go along.

01:40:51.540 - 01:41:05.800

But they were always so nice. Any place we went, they said, "You all really opened the doors for us." >> At the time you were flying in the WASP program, did you realize that you were doing something unusual?

01:41:07.940 - 01:41:21.060

>> I knew that there weren't too many of us. That's probably about as far as I thought. What is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? Diveney: Tough, bitchy.

01:41:21.780 - 01:41:30.120

I shouldn't say that. She was rough. She got what she wanted. The organization would not have existed without her.

01:41:30.200 - 01:41:40.940

There's no question about that, I don't think. She got what she wanted. She liked men, and they liked her. She could be as tough as they were.

01:41:41.420 - 01:42:09.720

So I'm glad she had a sad life too in lots of ways. If you could talk to your grandchildren in years to come, or to other children, what would you say to those grandchildren and children of all ages that might encourage them to pursue their dreams like you did?

01:42:10.060 - 01:42:28.760

Well, that you can try. If you want to do something, try to do it. Nothing's impossible if you want to do it. Of course, a lot of people want to do things that they never had the opportunities we had. So, you know, you've got to have the opportunities, but you've got to make it sometimes.

01:42:30.620 - 01:42:48.780

Okay. And would you like to say a message specifically to your grandchildren? Well, the message is that don't let anything stand in your way of what you want to accomplish. The sex has nothing to do with it, really. Of course it does.

01:42:48.860 - 01:43:05.100

You can't get away from that, basically. But still, just go for it. Is there anything that I have left out of your childhood or training? You've got the whole history.

01:43:07.700 - 01:43:19.460

God bless you for doing this. For Wings Cross America and for children and future generations who might watch this and be inspired by your story, I thank you. Thank you.

01:43:20.020 - 01:43:24.760

Enjoyed it. Nancy, do you have any questions? I thank you, too. You're very welcome.

01:43:25.200 - 01:43:30.580

You're very good. I can't believe you're saying that. You will think of things that you should have told me when we leave here.