00:00:02.320 - 00:00:15.480

And of course, on Nancy's website, there are over 2,000 pages of information about the WASP. So I wrote back and said, "You do your homework. I'm not going to write your paper for you.

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You do your homework, and then if there are questions that you cannot find the answer on the Internet at the Wings Cross America website, then I'll be happy to help you. But I'm not going to do your paper for you." That's what we're here for.

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I'm rolling. I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Mary Hearn. She was a WASP class 44-5.

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We are in her home in Boca Raton, Florida. Today is the 3rd of May, 2003. Today is the 2nd of May, 2003. The videographer is Nancy Parrish.

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Mary, if you will start off, if you will give us your full name and when and where you were born. I was born in Norfolk, Virginia, and I was born and named Mary Harriet Nesbitt. After that, we moved to—

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Let me stop you and ask you, tell me about your mother. My mother was a nurse, and she was a nurse to a very prominent man from Warrington, Virginia, who had peritonitis. In those days, which was just after the turn of the century, that was a fatal thing.

00:01:44.800 - 00:02:05.200

But somehow or other, the doctors had pulled him through. While he was in the hospital, he was visited by his son, who was a naval officer. He had come home from sea to see his father, who he thought was dying. There was this attractive nurse that was taking care of him.

00:02:06.160 - 00:02:41.360

When the doctor said that he could leave the hospital and go home, he also said, "I think you should take a nurse, a private duty nurse, with you. And I suggest Nancy Pike, who is right here." And of course, my father perked up, I suppose. And they all went off to Warrington, to Alwington, Virginia, the houses over there. And things developed. And the first thing

00:02:41.240 - 00:03:05.560

you know, they decided that—I'm not sure about all the dates. He may have gone back to sea. And then after that tour of duty was over, came back and looked up Nancy Pike and decided they were going to get married on January the 1st. There was no engagement party, I think this was maybe the day before.

00:03:06.120 - 00:03:30.980

It could have been the end of December. It was quite a hell of a loo because he did not have any rings. January 1st was a holiday and they had no judge, they had no church, they had nothing. But everybody in the family got busy and a cousin said, "Well, you can get married at

00:03:30.800 - 00:03:56.220

my house. And that was great. And my grandfather said, "Well, I know a judge. We'll call him and ask if he'll come over for a few minutes and do the honors." And then somebody said, "What are we going to do for a ring?" And my grandfather came to the rescue again and he said, "I know a jeweler. He'll open up." And Dad got down to the jewelers and the jewelers

00:03:56.220 - 00:04:23.920

said, "Now what size ring do you want?" He said, "I don't know." He gave my father a teacup full of wedding rings. When they got back, my mother tried on the rings so that they would know which one, and the others were returned to the jeweler that day. But It was quite a whirlwind sort of an engagement and marriage.

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But my father's name was Donald Wallace Nesbitt, and he was a wonderful man. Kelly: Did your mother stay on as a nurse after they were married? Did she keep working? Steele: My grandfather had recuperated by that time.

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He had recuperated. So that when you were born, your mother was not working. No, that's correct. And she never worked outside of the home,

00:04:52.080 - 00:05:07.100

although I think that was the way it was done in those days. Once a woman got married, it was up to the husband to take care of her for the rest of her life. And they made a go of it, one way or another.

00:05:07.840 - 00:05:32.720

Tell me about your dad. Well, he was born in Osceola, Missouri, because his uncle—there were four brothers who went out from the East Coast to get the fresh air. And doctors were all saying, "Go west, young man.

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The air out there is clean." And these four brothers went out and they found some property in Osceola and purchased it. And they each had a farm.

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And one of them not only had a farm, but it was my grandfather, was very good with figures. And he started a bank. It was the first bank in the area. And he was clever enough that he would get a bright young man to take care of that bank

00:06:02.720 - 00:06:30.000

and he would go somewhere else and open another one. He opened twenty-eight different banks in that area in Missouri at that time. But once they had all done well and whatnot, they came back to the East Coast one by one. My grandfather did, and he was the one that purchased the Arlington in Warrington, Virginia,

00:06:30.680 - 00:06:50.280

made that his home. He renovated it and put in five bathrooms. Everybody in the county thought he had lost his mind, because most homes had no inside bathroom at all. But he thought there should be a bathroom for every bedroom, and that is the way he arranged his house.

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Tell me, what was your dad doing when he and your mom married? He was a commissioned officer, and he was stationed at Hampton Roads, Virginia, when I was born. I was the fourth child in the family. But shortly after, I guess I was about two or three, when Dad went back to sea for his last sea duty.

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Mother went to Thomasville, North Carolina and lived with her sister, my Aunt Mimi. Aunt Mimi was a wonderful Christian woman who was so generous with her time. Because I was named for her, I got more attention than most children ever get in a lifetime. Kelly: Tell me about your siblings.

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The oldest one, Nancy, was very bright, an excellent student. She was Phi Beta Kappa and graduated from the University of North Carolina. She was out of my realm completely. Four years older, and I did not have my interest in books at all, I am sorry to say.

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If you just knew then what you know now, you would spend a lot more time studying. Then the next child came along, Don, Don Jr., and he graduated from the Citadel and got his commission immediately and was in the war the minute that Pearl Harbor happened. And Harrison, the one that is next older to me, Harrison was very bright also.

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He finished and got his college degree when he was twenty, and they did not give him a commission because he had to be twenty-one to get a commission at that time, which was early in 1941. It must have been late 1940 that they graduated, June of '40. So he came to Dad and he said, "You know, it's not honest to go and get a job and let

00:09:35.360 - 00:09:53.340

somebody train you and then say, "Oh, I've got to go to war." Because Dad could see that World War II was coming. A lot of people knew it was going to happen. So Dad said, "What do you want?"

00:09:53.360 - 00:10:20.340

He said, "Well, how about if you send me to go get my master's degree?" Dad said, "Okay, I'll help you." Off he went to Cornell, and his birthday is January the 1st. On January the 1st, he got a call to go in, and he had five more months before he could

00:10:20.400 - 00:10:37.120

get his master's. So, he asked them to waive it and let him finish, and they did. So he got his master's degree, and they sent him over to join Patton's Army and go out in front of the troops and put down the bridges and clear the way and whatnot.

00:10:37.860 - 00:10:53.560

And he was in the thick of it during World War II and came out without a scratch. But he also seems to have come out without a tongue because he never mentions what he went through. So many of those youngsters went through so much, they do not want to talk about it.

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But then I came along and I had a younger brother who was drafted out of the Citadel. He went over as an enlisted man and became a warrant officer before the war was over. I think he enjoyed it. He said that it was a great experience.

00:11:20.680 - 00:11:41.840

Kelly: When you were born, did you live—was your home in town or were you out on the— Steele: We always lived on the Navy Yard, except when Dad was stationed—he had two tours of duty in Washington, D.C. And when he was in Washington, D.C., he was at the Navy Department rather than at the

00:11:42.060 - 00:11:59.620

Navy Yard, and then we lived on the economy. Kelly: So were you born in a military hospital? No, it was not a military hospital. It was just one of the hospitals in Norfolk, Virginia. But your family, you lived on the naval base.

00:12:00.200 - 00:12:17.740

Yes, that's right. When your dad was busy, what was your mother involved in? Was she involved in clubs? Mother was not involved in clubs at all. She had five children. She said she thought she She would never get rid of the diety bucket.

00:12:18.960 - 00:12:40.760

She really was very fortunate because they always had help in those days in the South. There was always a cook, and when we came along there was a nursemaid to dress us in the afternoon and take us out for a little walk or whatnot. I can remember when we got to Pensacola, the nursemaid would take me down to the wharf

00:12:40.760 - 00:13:12.120

and we would fish for crabs and come home with a bushel basket full of crabs for whoever wanted them. I think maybe the nursemaid took them home for dinner at her house many times because we did that almost every day. I remember those days so well. The house seemed absolutely enormous—it was there at Pensacola Naval Air Station. And there were, I think, twenty-two

00:13:12.200 - 00:13:45.720

steps up to the front top living level. On the ground floor was servants' quarters and a storage room. The kitchen and the dining room were down on that floor. And there was a tremendous hurricane while we were there. I remember Aunt Mimi had decided to leave Thomasville and come live with us. She worked for the Civil Service on base there. She got

00:13:45.760 - 00:14:04.780

up early one morning and went out. It was raining and it was a miserable day. She got the broom and started sweeping the water off the back porch. She would sweep and sweep and there was more water and more water. She was not making any headway, and she finally backed into the house.

00:14:04.900 - 00:14:30.220

The water was chasing her in, and it kept getting higher and higher. Everybody that was an adult around, the cook and the maid and dad and mom, picked up our little gas stove and put it on the kitchen table. And then they decided, "Well, we better roll up the rug and get it upstairs."

00:14:30.220 - 00:14:53.340

So the rug was rolled up and hauled upstairs where they had a central living room and then bedrooms all around, as well as sleeping ports all around. And it was four days we were hauled up upstairs, because the water got four feet deep on that first level.

00:14:56.720 - 00:15:12.660

What year was this, Mary? I think it was 1926, could have been. It was about that. It would have killed thousands of people if it had been populated then as it is now.

00:15:13.340 - 00:15:29.980

But because of the scarce population, there were only about six officers' quarters on the base then. Now that area has been left for just the very top people and there have been lots and lots of housing built on base since then.

00:15:31.120 - 00:15:50.900

Let me ask you, when you moved down and moved in with your aunt, where did your dad go? I really do not know what the port was or what the ship was. I was quite young. I think I was about three when he left.

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I remember one day I decided I was going to go get my daddy. I got my umbrella and I started off for the center of town. A neighbor saw me and stopped me. I said, "I'm going to get my daddy, and if you try to stop me, I'll punch your eyes out

00:16:12.940 - 00:16:32.160

with my umbrella." So, there's that age two to three when people have their own ideas and they're going to have it their way or else. But he persuaded me to maybe we'd go get an ice cream cone together and he got me back

00:16:32.220 - 00:16:40.180

home. Where did you start school? I started school in Pensacola. I had the first grade there.

00:16:41.820 - 00:16:57.080

And in Pensacola, you were living on the naval base. Yes, yes, we were. As a matter of fact, at the time that we were there, my older brother told me later, he said, "You know, at the time that we were there, they did not know how to come out of

00:16:57.120 - 00:17:22.920

a spin, and they were losing students all over the place. They'd get the nose of that airplane up and it would stall at 4,000 feet or 5,000 feet. In fact, there was one student that bought the farm and his airplane landed in the Admiral's front yard and the Admiral's wife was sitting on the front porch.

00:17:24.920 - 00:17:41.760

You could hear the screams all the way to our house as he burned alive. What was your dad's job at Pensacola? He was a supply officer, and so he used to tell us about when World War I was on, because of the pilferage.

00:17:43.190 - 00:18:00.940

He would order supplies and maybe half of them would get there or maybe not at all. He started ordering everything by the locked carload. He said, "Can you imagine a carload of toothpaste?" But that is the way I had to order it in order to have it.

00:18:02.820 - 00:18:20.000

He also at that time was, I think, still paying, but they were paying by check rather than in cash as they did aboard ship. Kelly: When you started school, was the school on the Naval Base? Steele: No.

00:18:20.520 - 00:18:42.440

We had several bridges we had to go over. They were bayous. There was a bus that left from the base and took us to the school in Pensacola. I remember when the hurricane came along, I think all the bridges were washed out, so

00:18:42.440 - 00:19:03.220

we could not go to school for a long time. I blame that for not being able to spell, because between being in the first grade in in Pensacola and transferred to Washington, D.C. and going to the second grade there. I missed out on phonics completely, and I cannot spell worth a dime.

00:19:04.170 - 00:19:21.000

Kelly: So at that point, your dad was transferred to Washington? Steele: Yes, he did. Kelly: What did he do in Washington? Steele: He was at the Naval Department there and also ordering for all supply departments

00:19:21.000 - 00:19:32.100

in that area. Where did you live in Washington then? We lived on Yuma Street, which was in the suburbs out towards Silver Springs, if I can remember.

00:19:32.100 - 00:19:47.560

It was past the cathedral, and it was on a big hill. There were three houses, new houses, that were built there. The builder had built them to sell, but the Depression came along and he was unable to sell them.

00:19:47.920 - 00:20:03.380

So we got to rent one. It was a big four-bedroom house right on the very top of the hill, and it was absolutely marvelous in the wintertime when we'd get snow. There was nothing down below us, and so we'd get out and get on our sleds, and we had at

00:20:03.380 - 00:20:11.280

least a mile ride down that slope. It was fun. Right. So you started second grade there.

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How did you get to school? We walked. We were close enough to a school at that time that we walked to school. And for lunch, what would you do?

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We took our lunches. There was no cafeteria at those times. Do you recall what you took in your lunch? Usually something that you wanted to trade.

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Somebody else would have something that they didn't like. But I can remember the sandwiches that your mother makes at home with the stuff that's always there. It's never as good as something else that's new, exciting, and absolutely different.

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In elementary school, do you recall any teacher that might have influenced you? I think in the fifth grade, Mrs. Weber. She was quite a radical, and I don't think my parents thought very much of her. She made school very interesting and captured my attention, and I enjoyed her classes.

00:21:21.740 - 00:21:36.440

Mary, when you were growing up, what was a Christmas like in your home? Oh, an exciting, wonderful thing. You can imagine a house full of seven people, because Aunt Mimi was still with us then. She followed us to Washington.

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A huge Christmas tree, lots of presents, and it was an exciting, exciting time, and there was still a Santa Claus. Kelly: Would you get the Christmas tree ahead of time or the night before? Litz: Oh, we would get the tree ahead of time, and everybody would pitch in and help to decorate

00:22:03.240 - 00:22:20.760

it. And but the presents were very secret, and they were not put out until the night before. Do you remember making decorations for a tree? No, we didn't make decorations, but I remember that, as I said, it was Depression time, and

00:22:21.460 - 00:22:44.740

there were five of us, and Dad made sure that there was a Sears robot catalog in the house, And you could have anything that cost less than five dollars. So we poured through that catalog, and of course usually I wanted a doll and whatnot. And the boys got their Lincoln Logs and things of that nature.

00:22:46.740 - 00:23:09.000

But I'm sure that children today would feel that it was a very meager Christmas, but to us it was absolutely marvelous. And then for Christmas dinner, would you have other relatives that would visit? Usually we went to my grandfather's house, because Warrington is only 50 miles from Washington.

00:23:09.900 - 00:23:44.300

And that house, well, it was a big part of my life, because my grandfather was dead, But my uncle, my father's older brother, had purchased the house from my grandfather's estate. He ran it as an open house. He was president of the Bank of Pittsburgh, and it was his summer home. He would come down there in the summer when he wanted to. His three

00:23:44.300 - 00:24:00.840

children and his wife many times would stay there for months in the wintertime and then go back up to Pittsburgh and bring him back down for the summer. But there were twenty-eight at the dining room table. It was expanded.

00:24:01.360 - 00:24:20.680

The dining room there was at least forty feet long. I am sure it was forty feet long. And it was sandwiched between a living room that was 20 by 40, turned the other way, and at the other end another room called the billiard room, which was 40 by 20.

00:24:21.640 - 00:24:51.880

So the three rooms made an "H" with the dining room in between. And that dining room was absolutely marvelous because all of us were seated and they had an enormous tray with two turkeys. One turkey was on display at the head of the table. One had been carved in the kitchen and was plastered by the butler. The maid served the vegetables.

00:24:54.480 - 00:25:19.340

It was a very formal dinner, but there was great hilarity and many stories swapped. I of everybody and he took his fist and pounded it on the table and all the silverware jumped and everybody else jumped and the tension was finally and everything was brought to order for him to tell his story.

00:25:19.940 - 00:25:48.400

But every time that we were in Washington, our vacations were always spent at Arlington, which was where Dad grew up from the time he was, I think, early teens, because he used to tell stories about his pony. And he and his pony would go on two- and three-week treaks, if you can imagine.

00:25:48.400 - 00:26:16.080

It was so sparsely populated then that a neighbor coming to see you was an event, and Dad would would start off on his pony, and when dusk would come, he would go to the nearest farmhouse and knock on the door and say, "I'm Don Nesbitt, and I live in Warrington, and I wonder if I could spend the night in your barn."

00:26:16.080 - 00:26:41.340

And he said, without a doubt, everybody was so happy to see a stranger and to stop stories they would invite him in for dinner and of course find a bed for him in the house because he was young and clean cut and approached him in a way that was certainly you wouldn't think of inviting somebody that knocked on your door today into your home to have dinner

00:26:41.420 - 00:27:00.100

and whatnot. But in those days there was no radio, there was no television, and if you were on a farm You were isolated and it was an event to have someone come and swap stories with you. Kelly: Did your dad grow up in this home that your uncle called it?

00:27:00.220 - 00:27:17.100

Steele: Yes. In fact, I do not know exactly, but I figure that he was nine or ten when they moved back to Warrington. Kelly: Would you describe that home as colonial?

00:27:17.100 - 00:27:53.520

Oh, it was beautiful. It had six columns across the front. As you entered the front door, there was a guest room and bath downstairs on your left. There was a big center hall. And then, as I described, the H of the other three rooms on the other side. Dad used to bring his young officers when they would be in port and could get home.

00:27:53.630 - 00:28:13.840

He would bring them there to spend the weekend with them. My grandfather had arranged a ceiling-to-floor mirror at the far end of the living room and at the far end of the billiard room, so you have eighty feet there in between that are reflecting each other.

00:28:15.440 - 00:28:35.120

He loved to bring his friends in and put them in front of that mirror and he would say, "I'll go see which room is assigned to you," and get their reaction. Kelly: Would you then wake up on Christmas morning in your home in half Christmas and then go to your uncle's?

00:28:35.120 - 00:28:51.500

Heaton: That is exactly the way we would do it. We would have our Christmas at home and then go down and have Christmas dinner at Arlington. Tell me about your other grandparents. I never knew them.

00:28:52.380 - 00:29:08.380

They died before I had any memory at all. And your dad's mother, did you get to know her? Never. Not her or my grandfather, because she died first.

00:29:11.400 - 00:29:23.520

They used Arlington as a summer place and then they moved to the Cairo Hotel in the wintertime. My grandfather was instrumental. He was one of the charter members of the National Geographic Society.

00:29:24.760 - 00:29:42.820

He was very prominent in Washington. At that time, there was no Secret Service. The White House was open to anybody that wanted to walk in. I don't know whether he met President Cleveland before Cleveland was elected or whether he

00:29:42.920 - 00:30:15.580

was just a walk-in and they struck up a very nice friendship. But he was instrumental in getting the direct appointment into the Navy for my father. There was an oral exam and a written exam that Dad had to take. And I think he said there were twenty, nineteen or twenty in the class, and they took about

00:30:15.600 - 00:30:22.780

half of them. Right. Were any of your family into politics? Not really.

00:30:23.060 - 00:30:41.240

Okay. Christmas season, would your family attend celebrations, for example, pageants or anything like that in the churches? We were more family-oriented rather than church-oriented at that time.

00:30:41.520 - 00:31:00.460

However, Mother saw to it that we got to church every Sunday. Sunday was church day. Do you remember one particular church? the Methodist Church. You must be Baptist. They are very close, aren't they?

00:31:00.460 - 00:31:33.720

Helen: Yes, they are. When your dad was stationed in Washington, how many years of school did you attend there before he was transferred? He was usually four years. I was in Washington. I changed schools. Second grade, I was only there at Fourth Street School for one year. Then when we moved out to Yuma Street, I went

00:31:33.940 - 00:32:06.780

to a different elementary school. We left there after the fifth grade. He was transferred to Norfolk Navy Yard, Portsmouth, Virginia. We had quarters on the base, and I was within walking distance, so I went into the sixth grade there. I remember we lived on Quarters H, and there were huge duplexes, absolutely enormous duplexes. We had to curtain the windows,

00:32:08.140 - 00:32:29.860

And we had our own furniture, was always moved with us. And Mother thought it was a good idea for young ladies to be busy sewing curtains. And I hemmed miles of curtains, because I think there were ninety windows in that house. Did you do it on a machine or by hand?

00:32:30.000 - 00:32:45.940

By hand. It had to be done by hand. How involved were your mom and dad with your children's activities as you grew up? I think dad was pretty well involved with his job.

00:32:49.240 - 00:33:04.500

I cannot ever remember a PTA meeting. Were you kids into things like scouting? I was a scout and very happy to be a scout. That was it.

00:33:04.660 - 00:33:19.840

See, I had two older brothers that were scouts, and they would go off on these camping trips and whatnot. I wanted very much to be a Girl Scout. When I was old enough, I joined the Girl Scouts, and that was when we were in Washington.

00:33:22.080 - 00:33:41.520

I do not think we did any overnight scouting there, but the meetings. We would have weekend meetings and go to the Scoutmaster's house and make jello or do something exciting like that. Did you have family vacations?

00:33:43.060 - 00:34:02.560

Yes, we did. We had family vacations and they were usually centered around Garden Week. We were taken to some of the very famous houses in Virginia and the gardens there. It was delightful.

00:34:04.500 - 00:34:23.020

I cannot remember summer vacations. I remember I went to Girl Scout Camp one year, and I thought that was absolutely marvelous. Kelly: Do you recall what you learned at Girl Scout Camp? McMillan: I was amazed.

00:34:23.460 - 00:34:47.080

They put me to cleaning loutrines, and I had never cleaned a loutrine in my life, and nobody told me how. So I am afraid I did not do very much of a job. They had tables that had a compartment under the table, and so when you were served and

00:34:47.080 - 00:35:06.020

through with your main meal, you would put your plate in this cubbyhole. I thought that was really neat. Kelly: When you were living in Norfolk, did you go back and visit your uncle and aunt? Lowry: No, no.

00:35:06.040 - 00:35:19.440

It was a little far in those days. The roads, I remember there were no roads that were more than just two lanes, one going one way and one the other. They usually had a crown on them for drainage.

00:35:20.240 - 00:35:47.980

When you would see a car coming, you would pull over and everybody would lean to try not to go too far. It was a long time ago. Kelly: Right. Do you recall the first car your family had? McMillan: Oh, yes. It was a Franklin. I can remember it was a touring car. It was one

00:35:47.980 - 00:36:11.500

of the only cars on the street where we lived. Nobody else had a car. You could walk to town. town, why did you need a car except to go on a Sunday drive? And I think that is why Sunday drives got started, was because there were more cars then and it was just one way to get the car out and show it off.

00:36:12.810 - 00:36:34.280

Do you remember going on family drives? Oh, yes. When we got to Washington in the middle of the Depression, Dad, I think, was losing money so fast, he thought he might as well spend some. So he bought a seven-passenger Franklin. And I said, "I bet that salesman was the happiest person in the world." Because

00:36:34.540 - 00:36:48.280

they went out of business at that time because they just could not sell. Kelly: When you rode in that car, did your children have assigned seats? Did you among yourselves? Oh, no.

00:36:48.530 - 00:37:02.060

It was the first one that said, "Dibby's on the jump seats." It got them. And the boys liked the jump seats. And Mother sat up front with Dad, and the two girls and Aunt Mimi sat in the back seat.

00:37:03.220 - 00:37:19.920

Because they could always run faster and say, "Dibby's first." Right. What was special about your Aunt Mimi? She just was a wonderful Christian woman that lavished us with love and attention, and she

00:37:20.000 - 00:37:35.000

was so unselfish. She took me on trips to the World's Fair in Chicago, and I would never have gotten there otherwise. She took us to museums in Washington.

00:37:35.740 - 00:37:48.200

Mother would join us sometimes, but I think at times Mother wanted a little surcease too. But she just lavished her time and her love on each of us. But I think I got the major share. Kelly: Right.

00:37:49.100 - 00:38:02.740

What did you learn from your Aunt Mimi? McMillan: Well, too much. Too much. Kelly: That's right.

00:38:03.900 - 00:38:22.900

In elementary school now in Norfolk, did you have a favorite teacher there? McMillan: You mean Norfolk, Navy Yard, Portsmouth, Virginia? Yes, I did. I think her name was Mrs. Stevens.

00:38:24.720 - 00:38:51.300

She permitted me to share a bedroom with her on the ferry that went from Norfolk to Washington. Washington, D.C. I went to see Aunt Mimi after we had moved to Portsmouth. She decided that she was never going to get anywhere in civil service if she had to resign every four years and start at the beginning again. So, she decided she had better stay in Washington

00:38:51.520 - 00:39:27.660

and see if she could not get promotions and get ahead a little bit. Was she a secretary, or what did she do for civil service? She had a department that she was the head of. What they did was let bids out for contracts, And she was in charge of the department that did that. And she was very popular with people.

00:39:28.250 - 00:39:55.280

As you were growing up with these three brothers, did you mostly play with them or did you have girlfriends that -- I had -- when Jack, my little brother, came along, he was my baby. I was not quite three, but I was his mama, and I played with Jack more than anybody else. But once Jack got

00:39:55.340 - 00:40:31.420

up to going to school, he wanted to play with the boys. And that's when I had a cousin, Barbara Nesbitt that lived in Washington, her father was a lawyer for one of the banks there. He was a corporate lawyer. His father, Cousin Charlie, and Dad had a lot of business they wanted to talk over and so on. Cousin Charlie would come over, and if I remember

00:40:31.420 - 00:40:43.780

correctly, he had a Franklin also. He had a chauffeur. So he would come into the house and he would say, "Hey kids, do you want to go for a ride?"

00:40:43.780 - 00:41:03.000

And of course, all of us wanted to go to ride. So we would be shipped out in his car and then he and Dad could have their business discussion in peace. But he loved children and every fall he gave a big, big picnic for the whole family in

00:41:03.100 - 00:41:13.980

Rock Creek Park. And he provided all of the food, had it catered, and everybody came and it was just a family reunion. Oh, that's great.

00:41:14.240 - 00:41:22.600

Nancy has to change tape. Okay. Oh, you're doing great, Mary. Well, you're bringing up memories of such fun times.

00:41:22.660 - 00:41:39.200

Right. That's what I love. To cool in the galley window smelled awful good and he swiped one one day and found out that they didn't only smell good, they tasted wonderful.

00:41:39.760 - 00:42:03.740

And he would climb the ratlins with this pie in one hand using his tail to hold on. And it got to be so that the cook was really just absolutely furious about this whole business of having his pies stolen because he would have to turn around and make some more. So one day he decided he was going to put those pies out there and he was going to lay

00:42:03.820 - 00:42:24.260

and wait for that damn monkey and he was going to get him. Well the monkey was awful quick. The monkey got the pie, but he got the monkey's tail and his hands were full of grease. So when the monkey got to the booms, he could not hold on, he could not get his balance

00:42:24.360 - 00:42:41.760

because his tail was not working. It was slipping all the time. And the pie, of course, fell on the deck and the sailors had to clean it up and whatnot. So they finally got so that when there were pies out cooling, the monkey had—they put,

00:42:43.160 - 00:43:11.280

I think it must have been around his neck. They put a collar on him and they restrained him while he was there. But Dad had a million stories. One of the stories hit the National Geographic and I did not get a copy of that. I think my brother has that copy. It was a bear and it was a cub and it was precious and wonderful, but it grew up and it got stronger

00:43:11.280 - 00:43:42.120

and it had a mind of its own. But it got into the officer's mess and would get in the sugar bowl. And then one night it got into the captain's cabin and it was a hot night and that is why the door was open. And at that time the captain did not have somebody, a guard at his cabin door. The bear walked in and with his cold, wet nose tapped the naked belly of the captain

00:43:42.360 - 00:44:06.700

who woke up out of his sleep and hears this huge bear. Then they decide maybe he was getting too big for the ship and they put him off the ship. He chased some admiral down and he had to be put in a zoo and restrained, which was a shame because he was brought up as a pet. But Dad had so many stories like that, and we did not get any of them. If we

00:44:06.740 - 00:44:28.720

had had dictaphone machines at that time, it would have been wonderful. How long did you live in Norfolk? At what grade level did you live? I went into the sixth grade there and went through the sophomore year of high school. And then we went transferred to Charleston.

00:44:29.120 - 00:44:43.840

Okay. In going through junior high school, did you have other outside activities or extracurricular activities in school? Were you into sports?

00:44:44.720 - 00:45:17.600

No. We had PT in class, but the Navy Yard was better than three miles from the high school. They had a bus, and you had to pick up the bus. Or if you missed the bus, that meant that Mom had to come get you. Mom had an afternoon nap, so it meant you would walk home. We always

00:45:17.760 - 00:45:46.880

tried to make that bus. None of us had any of the extracurricular activities, which is a shame. By the time you moved from Norfolk, what were your goals? McMillan: I do not think I had any. I was a late bloomer. I did not decide what I wanted

00:45:46.880 - 00:46:13.380

to do until I got close to college, and I decided I wanted to be a social worker. I on that, the next class I was going to have to take would involve going to the state institution and seeing all these people. And I heard the upperclassmen talk about how awful it was to see people like that.

00:46:13.380 - 00:46:26.100

I thought, "I don't want to do that." So I switched to fine arts, which was a crip course. [Laughter.] How do you think it affected you changing schools so much?

00:46:27.580 - 00:46:43.020

It was very hard because you would develop friendships and then you had to leave those friendships. But then there was an upside too. You got to see a part of the country that you had not seen before and you had a chance

00:46:43.120 - 00:47:01.300

to make new friends. So you got into the habit of—you knew it was coming and you did it. When you moved from Norfolk then, where did you move? Well, you mean from the sixth grade?

00:47:01.720 - 00:47:10.160

Norfolk Navy Yard, Portsmouth, Virginia. And then you went through your sophomore year. Yes. Then I went to Charleston, South Carolina.

00:47:10.400 - 00:47:27.480

Dad was sent to Charleston. We were seven miles from town. And when I graduated— But you lived on the naval base?

00:47:27.640 - 00:47:41.080

We lived on the naval base there, yes. We had quarters there. And it was a beautiful area for the quarters. And the war was going on in Europe.

00:47:42.320 - 00:48:04.420

Do you recall where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor? Oh, yes. home on vacation. Mother and Daddy had an apartment in the Wyoming Apartments, which is next door to that was a ten-acre lot with one house on it when we were there. That house

00:48:04.460 - 00:48:30.580

has been torn down, and that is where the Hilton is now. It was next door to the Hilton, which is the Hilton now in Washington, D.C. We were in the living room on Sunday, and the announcement came over that Pearl Harbor had struck. And Dad had retired at age sixty-five the day before. They were working six days a week,

00:48:30.680 - 00:48:51.680

so he worked on Saturday and was retired that day. And on Monday morning, he was recalled to active duty. He was made Inspector General of all the supply departments from Bangor, Maine to Houston, Texas.

00:48:52.620 - 00:49:12.560

He went with a team to inspect the books and check out every Navy supply department between those two. I wish he could have come to Sweetwater to see me get my wings, but he could not do that because he was traveling with a group.

00:49:14.040 - 00:49:29.660

It was wartime and traveling was difficult, very difficult. Let me take you back to high school. In high school, what was your favorite subject? I can tell you the one I liked least.

00:49:29.820 - 00:49:48.560

It was Latin. I despised Latin, and that is the only grade I ever failed. Miss Brittingham was very intimidating. Every now and then, of course, everybody tried to get your teacher off the track and into

00:49:48.640 - 00:50:00.560

a side. She was very easily led into telling about her days when she was being courted by this man. When she refused, he stabbed himself with his umbrella.

00:50:01.320 - 00:50:18.840

He was on his knees. Of course, everybody in school knew the story by heart, but she loved telling it. When I took that course over again, it was a Miss Griffith, and Miss Griffith, I'm sure, was eighty.

00:50:20.160 - 00:50:41.400

When she pointed to you, her finger was so eaten up with arthritis, it was crooked, so So she was pointing like this. Well, what was your social life like in high school? Not much, because without the activities that you had.

00:50:44.220 - 00:51:05.560

Most people who lived nearby and who were able to—I did not date until—I did not when I was in high school. And also, parents felt it was not to be done until you were at least seventeen or eighteen. Kelly: How strict were your parents?

00:51:06.330 - 00:51:29.200

McMillan: They did not have to be strict. My father had a look, and when he looked at you in a certain way, you knew that you had better straighten up or you were going to be really embarrassed, because he never laid a hand on any of us." He explained later that he had seen too many men who had lost

00:51:29.320 - 00:52:02.560

their temper and had really injured a child and broken an arm or knocked a jaw out of line or whatnot. He said he was not going to ever touch any of us. He had a bearing, I think, and you did not want to go near there. Kelly: When you were in high school, were you involved in music or drama or anything

00:52:02.740 - 00:52:22.600

like that? It was not until after we moved to Charleston, South Carolina, and the Citadel was there. When I was a senior, I started dating and going to the dances and the balls and having the evening gowns.

00:52:23.320 - 00:52:42.820

I just loved that. With two older brothers that were willing to help me along. I had a date most weekends. Or there were a bunch of cadets that came over to the house for Sunday dinner and we

00:52:42.820 - 00:53:01.040

would play tennis or we would go for walks in this beautiful area with the moss draped trees and huge trees that were just so beautiful. Kelly: By the time you were a senior, was one of your brothers at the Citadel? McMillan: Yeah, yeah.

00:53:01.080 - 00:53:13.340

Kelly: Were they very protective of you? McMillan: I think they were pretty protective, yeah. They were pretty good about it. Kelly: Did you have a high school prom?

00:53:14.140 - 00:53:29.940

McMillan: No. In Charleston, they had two high schools when we were there. One was for boys and one was for girls. I went to Memminger, the girls' high school, and I did not know any of the boys in high

00:53:30.200 - 00:53:47.100

school at all. Was that a public school? They were both public schools. And then anyone who graduated from a Charleston high school was eligible to go to the College

00:53:47.100 - 00:54:06.220

of Charleston, which was the oldest municipal college in the United States. And their charter required them to accept anybody who had graduated from a Charleston high school. And I think the tuition was about $20 plus your books, and I could live at home.

00:54:06.820 - 00:54:28.920

So Dad got a car for me, and I would drive in for my eight o'clock class. And every morning they had assembly before the first class. And you stood and turned your back to the north to say the prayer. Isn't that a sketch?

00:54:30.740 - 00:54:47.060

They don't do that anymore. I went back, and it just so happened that when we went, it was graduation day. And what had been the assembly was now just a reception area. And everything was so beautifully decorated.

00:54:47.060 - 00:55:10.480

They had white lilies, white something, great pots of them all around the front of the main building and on the cistern that was out front. And they treated me like the relic I was. And they were so good to me.

00:55:11.560 - 00:55:36.580

They have now been inducted into the state school system, and they're part of a branch of the university. But at the time that I went to it, they had the main building that had all the classrooms and all the administrative work. And then there was a library over to the side, a second

00:55:36.720 - 00:56:07.080

building. But now they have purchased property all around there. And they have closed up the street at the back, and they have lots of classrooms in what used to be private homes. They have no dormitories. And it is quite hard, I think, for the young people to find place to live there. But the population of the school itself has ballooned since it was

00:56:07.180 - 00:56:29.260

taken in by the state. And I think it was because they just simply could not manage to accommodate everything that the charter had required. And when I was there, you started out as a freshman, and in many of the classes there were two people to the seat. You would it one day and you'd squat the next.

00:56:30.200 - 00:56:36.320

[Laughter.] Was it co-ed? Yes, it was co-ed. What was your goal at that point?

00:56:37.240 - 00:56:52.040

What was your major? Well, I think, see, I was only there for two years, and then I transferred to the University of North Carolina. So I'm not sure that—I think I was thinking about going into social work, but that first

00:56:52.120 - 00:57:10.380

two years were pretty much the same, whatever. Did you meet anybody special while you were there? Or just date all the boys from the Citadel? I pretty well dated a lot. I did not date any of the boys from the school. I dated the

00:57:10.380 - 00:57:29.300

ones from the Citadel. Right. Let me go back and ask you about your high school graduation. Did you have caps and gowns? I did not graduate from anywhere. I think when we moved from Portsmouth, there was not

00:57:29.320 - 00:58:01.220

a graduation. But from elementary school to high school there, I think we went on vacation. Dad would rent a house up near Warrington, and we would go up and spend the summer there, it was very hot down in Portsmouth and Charleston. There were a lot of people there that would rent their homes out and then they would go up to Newport or up further north. But it

00:58:01.300 - 00:58:16.800

was nice rolling hills. It was right at the foothills of the Shenandoah Valley. It was very comfortable and of course Dad felt very much at home there. Right. Would he then just come up on weekends?

00:58:17.820 - 00:58:31.000

He would usually have two weeks off, but he would come when he could. And then from high school, why didn't you attend that graduation? Same thing. Okay.

00:58:31.600 - 00:59:01.840

Family vacations started after the academics were over, but before the graduation. I think with five children, they decided they didn't want that graduation speech every year again. Why did you decide on the University of North Carolina? Well, Dad was very clever with five children to put through school. He had bought a little

00:59:01.940 - 00:59:30.640

piece of property when we were living with Aunt Mimi and he came back. He bought a little piece of undeveloped property there up on a hill. I think he and Mother at one time thought they would like to build a house there. That put him on the tax rolls in North Carolina. My sister went to William and Mary Norfolk Division, and she was able to live at home

00:59:30.720 - 00:59:56.860

the first two years, and I was able to live at home the first two years, and that saved a hunk of money. And then when they thought we should have some campus life, they said we could go to University of North Carolina. That is when we transferred there for the last two years.

00:59:57.220 - 01:00:15.760

Where did you live? I lived in the dormitory, women's dorm. It was brand new at the time. I was so disappointed when I went back. It needed paint and one of the shutters was askew. I thought, "Oh, it was so beautiful when I was here."

01:00:15.760 - 01:00:28.780

When you were at North Carolina, did you join a sorority? No. Dad was—what is it? Psy Chi?

01:00:30.540 - 01:00:52.400

I cannot remember. He went to George Washington University for three years before he went in the Navy. Oh, no, it's not Chi Omega. I get these Greek names.

01:00:52.800 - 01:01:12.440

But anyhow, he said that they never stopped sending letters begging for money. He said, "I can't afford to do it anyhow, so don't worry. You're saving yourself a lot of unwanted mail and solicitation when you finish if you don't go the sorority route.

01:01:12.960 - 01:01:25.580

So I didn't miss it. Right. So at the University of North Carolina, were you still going for the social studies part? Yeah, I was until the senior year when I was going to have to take this course that I thought

01:01:25.660 - 01:01:36.900

I couldn't stomach. And later on when I was doing social work, they sent me back to do it anyhow. I thought, "Why didn't I do it to begin with?" Kelly: Right.

01:01:37.280 - 01:01:42.800

So you went ahead and finished North Carolina. McMillan: Yes, I did. That's where I got my degree. Kelly: Did you go to graduation there?

01:01:42.930 - 01:01:52.360

McMillan: No. Kelly: No. McMillan: The war was on, and Dad said, "Come on home. We're anxious to have you."

01:01:54.580 - 01:01:58.760

I was ready to go home. Kelly: Right. So you went home. Was that to Charleston?

01:01:58.930 - 01:02:17.560

McMillan: No, I went to Washington. had been moved again. They moved while I was at Chapel Hill. I left one house in Charleston and came back to another one in Washington, D.C., only it was an apartment up there. Kelly: Then did you get a job?

01:02:17.800 - 01:02:54.040

I did. I had a job. It was a man that designed furniture for Bassett, I think it was. He had an office in New York, and he wanted some of these contracts from the Navy. He wanted to have an office with somebody to answer the telephone and do little things when he was in Washington. I was no good at all at being a secretary. You would come back and

01:02:54.040 - 01:03:21.500

want to send off a letter or what not, or explain to the company what he could make a bid on. One time I stayed over time to type out this report, and I was not a very good typist and have any shorthand at all. He got up and read the report, and there were 1,400 tables knocked

01:03:21.600 - 01:03:41.980

down and raped. I had written it "raped" instead of "rapped." Dad always had a secretary, and I guess I thought I was always going to have a secretary to do that kind of thing for me. But it is very embarrassing. So that was the end of the job.

01:03:42.010 - 01:03:47.660

Kelly: Okay. And then what did you do? Steele: Well, that was when I went into WASP. Kelly: Okay.

01:03:48.210 - 01:04:12.300

Let me ask you, when is the first time that you saw an airplane that made you think you might want to learn to fly that airplane? Steele: After Dad had said I could not go in the Navy, I wanted to be a wave. He had been in the Navy his whole life, and I thought that would be absolutely wonderful.

01:04:12.600 - 01:04:25.060

And he said, "No, absolutely not. Women do not belong in the Navy." He just was against that idea totally, and there was no chance that I would argue with him.

01:04:26.600 - 01:04:47.540

And then I was going to be Rosie the Riveter and go to Baltimore, and that was squelched too because of living conditions there. And I was going through, I think it was the Washington Post, one Sunday, and they had this big spread on the WASP, the Rota Gravia section.

01:04:47.620 - 01:05:08.460

Do you remember the Rota Gravia sections? And I said, "I want to be one of these." Well, of course, at that time they wanted 500 hours, and was it also a commercial license. So I think Dad thought that was a pretty safe bet, because I did not have the first hour.

01:05:08.620 - 01:05:25.340

I had not had a single hour in an airplane. I would work all week long and get my little paycheck. I had to go to Manassas, Virginia, which was nothing but a cow pasture. I do not think there was even a hangar there, just a little shed.

01:05:27.240 - 01:05:54.300

They would tie the planes down and whatnot. So I went and would spend my whole week's paycheck. I think I was making $90 a month then, but I would have to spend overnight. That train ride down did not take too long. But I found a woman whose husband worked on the railroad, and she had a room that she

01:05:54.300 - 01:06:26.060

let out. I do not remember how much she charged, but I was surprised at how other people lived. I was willing to do anything. I was going to go in, I was going to be a WASP and get my $500. I was absolutely convinced that they could not win the war without me. After all, It was a big effort and everybody had to pitch in, right?

01:06:27.160 - 01:06:40.260

And I wanted to do my share. Were there any other girls going down at Manassas learning to fly? Not that I met. I did not meet any of them.

01:06:41.020 - 01:06:58.420

Would you live in this woman's house all week or just on weekends? No, just on the weekend. I would go down Friday night and spend Friday night and all day Saturday and maybe get some flying time in on Sunday morning and then get back on the train and go back to Washington.

01:06:58.980 - 01:07:19.020

It only took maybe forty-five minutes or an hour. Tell me about the first time you went up in an airplane. I thought, "Gee, I am on my way." I think that I soloed in 12 or 13 hours, and of course, that's the biggest thrill in your

01:07:19.240 - 01:07:30.720

life is when you solo the—it's wonderful. You think you're really a hot pilot. What kind of airplane? It was a Taylorcraft, a Taylorcraft.

01:07:31.120 - 01:07:45.840

But I think that I did get some time in in Cubs as well. Is the Taylorcraft side-by-side or is it tandem? It's side-by-side. Do you recall your instructor and how did he feel about teaching a girl to fly?

01:07:46.400 - 01:08:11.900

He never said much of anything. When I look back on it, he was not really as enthusiastic as I was. But I started building up my hours. I must have been within a few hours of thirty-five hours when they lowered the requirement, and

01:08:11.920 - 01:08:28.580

that is all you needed. I was ecstatic. Because we were in Washington, once I got that—I think I only had maybe one or maybe two weekends to finish up to get thirty-five hours—I would go down to the Pentagon and

01:08:28.700 - 01:08:40.560

sit outside of Jacqueline Cochran's office. I said, "I've got my bag packed. I'm ready to go. All you have to do is call me and I'm on that train.

01:08:40.780 - 01:08:51.040

I'll be there." I said, "If somebody washes out or somebody falls out at the last minute, just call me. I'll step in." I tried every way I could.

01:08:51.100 - 01:09:03.720

I wanted to go the next day. It seems to me it was maybe a month or so, and they finally called me and I was so thrilled. Did you have an interview with anybody? I didn't.

01:09:04.480 - 01:09:12.540

I just had the paperwork that I had turned in. Did you have to take a physical? Oh, yes. That was necessary.

01:09:15.000 - 01:09:34.100

Where did you take that? I think it was Andrews, Andrews Air Force Base. They weren't used to dealing with women. I am sure they were supposed to do a pelvic and I think they decided they would skip that.

01:09:36.060 - 01:09:49.980

I did not know what a pelvic was either at that time. Kelly: When you would go down to Ms. Cochran's office, were you ever able to meet her? McMillan: Oh no. I saw her run through one day and that was a thrill.

01:09:51.780 - 01:10:07.700

She had a lot of work to do and she was very well surrounded with proper personnel to keep pigeons like me out. How were you notified that you were accepted? I think they telephoned me.

01:10:10.080 - 01:10:29.960

I could be wrong about that, but it was a few years ago. How did your mother feel when she found out you wanted to learn to fly? She was speechless. And I am sure that Dad told her one night, because in all the years that I lived in my

01:10:30.040 - 01:10:53.100

home as a child or as a dependent, I never saw a cross look or heard a cross word between the two of them. She worshipped the ground he walked on. Everything that he said was absolutely marvelous and certainly nothing to be questioned.

01:10:55.860 - 01:11:12.900

I think Dad said, "Just calm down. We cannot turn her back now. If we are lucky, she will get there and turn around and come back." I almost did when I went through the food line the first time and they were serving

01:11:12.900 - 01:11:36.340

food out of what I called dish pans and these huge, awful kitchen spoons. I had never seen anything like that. I had gotten a little idea of how some people lived when I was going to Manassas. Kelly: In the meantime, the war had started.

01:11:37.060 - 01:11:54.000

What were your brothers doing? McMillan: Both of them were overseas. of the older ones. I think Jack was still at the Citadel, but he either had just gotten to be drafted or he was drafted very shortly after that.

01:11:54.200 - 01:12:12.440

Kelly: Were you ever able to go home at the same time your brothers were there, all of you in uniform? McMillan: No, it did not happen, because one was overseas and one was in Florida. I do I don't know where Jack was at that time. We were scattered.

01:12:13.910 - 01:12:31.920

Once you got your orders to report, how did you get from Washington to Sweetwater? I got there on the train, and I don't know how it happened. Do I need to stop? Yeah.

01:12:33.740 - 01:12:44.500

Okay, I'm rolling. When you were on the train going out, did you meet any other trainees who were also going? No, I did not meet a soul.

01:12:44.860 - 01:13:06.400

I think I was on Cloud Nine. My dad took me to the train station and he gave me a watch with a sweep hand, which I still have, because I had said, "You know, I have got to get a watch." I had spent every penny I had on flying lessons and my train ticket.

01:13:08.760 - 01:13:22.620

So I was very touched that he did that. Kelly: Had you ever been to Texas before? McMillan: I had never been west of the Mississippi River. Kelly: Give me your first impression of Sweetwater.

01:13:22.620 - 01:13:37.860

McMillan: I had never seen anything like that. It was so different. But then I had been to a lot of different places, and I was so enthusiastic about being accepted.

01:13:38.800 - 01:14:02.900

And then it hit me when they had orientation the first morning after we got there. And they said, "We want you to look at the person on your right and the person on the left and probably one or maybe two of you won't be here when graduation day comes." And that was like a slap in the face. The idea of going out there and going through

01:14:03.000 - 01:14:34.360

all this and failing was terrifying to me. And that's why later when I found out how many of the girls were real pilots already and had been overseas or had done an enormous amount of flying, I thought, "Maybe I'm one." So that fear never left. Kelly: When you got off the train in Sweetwater, what were your impressions?

01:14:35.580 - 01:14:54.040

McMillan: There's nothing here. This is the middle of nowhere. But that's okay. I'm going to learn to fly for the WASP." Kelly: Do you recall, did you spend the night in the hotel? Steele: Oh, yes, the Blue Bonnet.

01:14:54.420 - 01:15:20.220

I think everybody who went through Sweetwater had a brush with the Blue Bonnet. It was a real disappointment not to see it there when we went back for the reunion. Kelly: Then how were you transported out to the airfield? I think it was in one of the cattle cars.

01:15:21.340 - 01:15:31.000

It was a cattle car, I am sure. They took a whole bunch of us. Kelly: What do you suppose your dad and mom would have said if they could have seen you getting in that cattle car?

01:15:32.800 - 01:15:47.180

McMillan: "She'll be home soon." That's what they would have said, I think. Kelly: When you got out to the airbase, what was your first impression when you saw the airplanes?

01:15:47.250 - 01:15:58.280

McMillan: Oh, I was thrilled. Look at all those airplanes. I thought that the smell of gasoline was perfume. I just thought that was wonderful.

01:15:58.700 - 01:16:15.500

For years I thought, "Oh, that's wonderful. They smell like airplanes." I have to tell you what happened later. There was a little static display of World War II planes here at Pompano Beach, and Lou

01:16:15.540 - 01:16:33.300

and I went. And Lou said, "I would just love to get up in that AT-6 and take one more look at the cockpit and see if I can even remember the instruments." So he walked over and he tried to get his leg up on the wing, and he finally did.

01:16:33.920 - 01:16:51.840

And then he pulled and I pushed and he pulled and I pushed and he could not get up on the wing. And I said, "Let me try." And so I went over and I got my leg up on that thing and he pushed and I pulled.

01:16:55.160 - 01:17:13.320

Neither one of us got to see the cockpit again. That's when we realized that we were no longer spring chickens. [Laughter] Kelly: When you got out to Avenger, tell me what happened.

01:17:13.920 - 01:17:38.500

Did you have an orientation when you got out there, and how were you assigned to your barracks? If I can remember, they just said, "Line up according to the alphabet, A, B, C," and so on. And they would call six girls up and they were assigned to this cabin and whatnot.

01:17:38.700 - 01:17:58.900

Of course, they divided the class in two with Flight 1 and Flight 2, and I happened to get to Flight 2. Kelly: Tell me about your bay mates. Oh, we had a wonderful time. We had a wonderful group, except there was one. She was a doctor's

01:17:59.070 - 01:18:31.240

daughter. I had been around military and I knew a little bit about what the drill was. And they called us to fall out, and everybody piled out except this one girl, and she was was combing her hair. We yelled at her, "Come on, let's go. I'm not ready yet." She was combing her hair. When we got back from breakfast, she wasn't there, and I never

01:18:31.350 - 01:18:54.260

saw her again. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make to be a trainee? Getting up at six o'clock in the morning and rushing, because I never had to rush like that. But as you well know, they kept us going. I mean, all the time, 16-hour days, there

01:18:54.280 - 01:19:17.700

was something you had to do or be somewhere for the first few months. And then we could not stop in the ready room, we could not stay in the ready room. And then when you got along a little further, you had a little bit of rest. You could go in and get a cup of coffee or a candy bar or something.

01:19:18.490 - 01:19:52.240

Tell me about those other four baymates. Were you all from the same type background or the same state? No. Peg's father was a lawyer. I had the greatest respect for Peg because I thought she was very bright. Peg is now in a full-body cast, and they live in Rosemont. But she has

01:19:52.340 - 01:20:14.960

had a wonderful life and a very productive life. Burt had a really bad experience. She married a guy after she graduated. She was pregnant when he left.

01:20:15.800 - 01:20:30.600

When he came back, he announced that he did not want to be married anymore, so he left her with this little girl. She later remarried and things looked up from there. I kept in touch with her pretty well.

01:20:31.240 - 01:21:03.420

She lost her husband at the time we were at the Tucson reunion. I called her to see if she was going. She said, "I don't think I can go because my husband is not well." Beverly Moses, Beverly's cutest little trick, just loved going over to the dances at the

01:21:03.500 - 01:21:32.980

base of Big Springs. She played bridge and she was full of energy and just as cute as a button. She was killed within a few months of graduation. She was taking an observation position, looking for a downed airplane in the Grand Canyon.

01:21:33.600 - 01:21:49.000

They came around and were in a blind canyon and went right in. Kelly: Was that while she was in training? No, that was after she graduated, but she had not been graduated very long, two months at the most.

01:21:51.680 - 01:22:12.920

And then there was Becky McShee, who also had a wonderful, wonderful productive life. She had come into the WASP from the WACS and she went back into the WACS after the WASP were over. And then when she retired, she became a travel guide.

01:22:13.560 - 01:22:33.700

And she traveled all over the world with groups of people. And every Christmas we would get a Christmas card from Becky, and she would have a little card and she had typewritten a little message on it that would tell of all the countries she had been in and what she had done that year.

01:22:34.080 - 01:22:53.720

It was wonderful what she could get on a little space not too big than a postcard. She has a chain. Describe for me your bays where you lived. They were cement floor.

01:22:54.140 - 01:23:12.540

They were little cubicles. Actually they were not all that little, but it was little when there were six people living in them. One bath, everybody had a locker about the size of a high school locker, everybody had

01:23:12.560 - 01:23:32.440

a cot, and if I remember correctly, there was a large table and three could be seated on each side for studies. The one bathroom worked fine. fell into line and we would do other things while the one was in the bathroom. And then

01:23:32.960 - 01:24:07.200

you did not waste a bit of time in there. You were trying to be thoughtful of the next person in line. And so I could not do that now, but we did it then because it was necessary. There were two windows and a door, and it was a full house with six lockers. And it seems to me we had a footlocker at the end of our bed, did we?

01:24:08.680 - 01:24:23.600

I think some of us did. There was not any other place for it, I am sure. What was a typical day like at Avenger? Running all day long.

01:24:25.510 - 01:24:45.880

We would have flying in the morning one week and ground school in the afternoon and studying at night. We would have PT in between. It was a little warm at times.

01:24:49.420 - 01:25:14.360

I can remember when I got—there was no time wasted at all, because if you had time at home after dinner, you did your studying then or you were in trouble. Everybody else in the room was studying, and we would help each other if there was a problem. I had a problem with the Morse code at the last minute.

01:25:16.680 - 01:25:39.740

And my baymates coached me and helped me, and I squeaked through. But it was not something that I found easy. And we did not really use it a whole lot afterwards, but we had it. Kelly: Do you recall the first time you went up in the primary trainer?

01:25:40.140 - 01:26:01.400

I had a wonderful, wonderful teacher. He was a lawyer who had left his practice in Odessa, if I remember correctly, and come over to teach flying. He was very patient, and he was very good, and he was very clear in his instructions.

01:26:03.540 - 01:26:21.220

What impressed me as I got further along was they evidently were told not to say anything to us about our ride. I never had anybody say, "You did a lousy ride," or, "You did well today," or, "I'm proud of you.

01:26:21.400 - 01:26:32.260

Keep it up." There was nothing like that at all. You got out of the airplane and that was it. You went into the hangar and you did some hangar flying with the other girls, because

01:26:32.180 - 01:26:57.340

there were four girls to the instructor, and he would take each one up for an hour. You had that other three hours. I was drinking five Coca-Colas a day and a bundle of nerves and scared to death that I was going to wash out. When I got to Advanced, I really—well, in Basic, I had an instructor who was a very

01:26:57.340 - 01:27:29.680

rough person. I figured he had probably been a mechanic who had learned to fly and gotten his license, his instructor's license. He was unable to speak the English language without using two or three four-letter words in each sentence. I thought, "Damn it, this guy is trying to intimidate me and I am not going to be intimidated."

01:27:29.680 - 01:27:43.600

And so I thought, "Roll up your ears, Mary, and just try to get the good stuff he is trying to say to you." But I found it very difficult. I had never been thrown with anybody like that.

01:27:44.320 - 01:27:56.820

And when I got to advance, the instructor came to me and he said, "I am transferring you to another instructor." I said, "Are you washing me out?" He said, "No."

01:27:56.820 - 01:28:19.180

He said, "There have been some people that are washed out, and we are trying to readjust so that one instructor does not have one student and somebody else has five, because they are going to let people go as time goes on." And he said, "But I will tell you one thing.

01:28:19.900 - 01:28:38.280

You better get over in that gym and beef up your upper strength, or you're not going to be able to horse that AT-6 around." He said, "You get over there and you work out on that punching board, and you just ask Lieutenant LaRue what he can do to help you."

01:28:38.280 - 01:28:48.660

And I did. I was over there every afternoon. going to the ready room or getting a cup of coffee or doing anything like that, I was over there working out.

01:28:51.540 - 01:29:06.460

I was determined I was not going to wash out if I could help it. And so I was able to make it through. Kelly: Describe for me the mess hall. Steele: It was a mess.

01:29:07.920 - 01:29:31.780

It was a real mess. I think that is how it got its name. It was a long cafeteria-like line, and we were given metal trays that were compartmentalized. One of these great huge wash tubs of beans or whatever it was they were serving were

01:29:32.060 - 01:30:08.240

picked up by a woman with an arm that looked like she had been hauling steel around all of her life. And she would take this big spoon and plop it on the tray. And you would go on and have this repeated down the line. And it was most unappetizing. There were no accoutrements at all, no parsley on the side, no garnishes, no sterling silver, no bone china. It was

01:30:08.240 - 01:30:32.780

It was different. It was very different. What did you learn to eat? Well, you learn to say, "Not much of that," or "Can I skip this?" And they didn't load us down with parsley or liver, and I got along pretty well.

01:30:34.380 - 01:30:42.240

Did you learn to eat grits? Well, of course, I was brought up in the South. Kelly: Okay. So Brits were not new.

01:30:42.320 - 01:31:04.380

McMillan: They were not new. I was never very fond of them, but I could tolerate a little bit. Kelly: When you entered primary, do you recall your solo flight in a PT-17 Stearman? McMillan: Not so much as the very first day.

01:31:05.040 - 01:31:30.120

The very first day, we started taxiing out to the end of the runway. Coming in the opposite direction, there was another airplane of the same make and model with a student in it and an instructor. About twenty feet in front of us, her instructor yelled out, "Put on the brakes!"

01:31:30.120 - 01:31:43.360

And she went, "Pshh!" and that little plane just nosed up, and that little propeller went right down in the ground, and the tail was up in the air. And I thought, "Oh, mercy. She's a goner."

01:31:44.960 - 01:31:56.100

And I thought, "I've got to be careful with these brakes, and I'll never forget that moment in my life." I thought, "There's a lesson here. Be careful."

01:31:56.180 - 01:32:09.440

Kelly: You don't happen to know who that was. I have no idea who it was or whether she was washed out. She may have gone on to graduate, who knows. Anything unusual happen to you during primary training?

01:32:11.860 - 01:32:25.960

Do you tell secrets at this time? Is it okay? Sure it is. Well, we had terrible weather because I went in in early December and January and February.

01:32:26.380 - 01:32:48.180

The weather in West Texas is not conducive to clear skies and easy flights. We had been confined because of the weather for quite a long time. We woke up one morning and there was about six or eight inches of snow on the ground and sunshine, a beautiful day.

01:32:49.440 - 01:33:15.020

We were ordered to go up. Well, we went up and we played in the clouds, and we had the best time. My instructor said, "Now, you're not to tell anybody about this." About a month, six weeks later, I was called into the front office.

01:33:16.320 - 01:33:29.860

And they wanted to know, "Do you remember the day it snowed?" And I said, "Yes." And they asked me several questions. Well, I did not know anything about anybody doing anything except the lesson for that

01:33:30.020 - 01:33:56.440

day. And I did not say a word, and I do not think they got a word out of anybody, but we had had a wonderful time doing all sorts of dangerous things that we should not have been doing. But I think that the girls enjoyed it. It was a fun day. There was no lesson that day.

01:33:56.860 - 01:34:28.760

Right. Describe for me the auxiliary fields. What were those used for? We got to those mostly in advance, if I remember correctly. They were out away from the main runways in order to disperse the congestion, I suppose. Sometimes they ran the check flights out of those, and they had spot landings done at

01:34:28.760 - 01:34:53.380

those. They were there for work for us. It was quite a ways from the main field. Question: When you arrived at Avenger Field, do you recall taking an oath?

01:34:54.460 - 01:35:06.100

McMillan: I do not remember. Yes, I guess I do. Now that you mention it, yes, we did take an oath. And from that oath, what did you expect would happen?

01:35:06.740 - 01:35:30.540

Well, we thought we were going to be militarized and become an integral part of the Army Air Corps. And that didn't happen. Why do you think it did not happen? I think personal opinion is worth nothing, but my personal opinion is partly it was politics.

01:35:33.840 - 01:35:58.140

There were factions pulling in different directions, and the powers that be thought, "We can get rid of this now once and for all." It was decided that we were not to be taken into the military. I went blank on the question I was going to ask you.

01:35:59.940 - 01:36:18.260

Oh, I wanted to ask you about ground school. What did you enjoy about ground school or not enjoy? I liked engines because it was completely new to me. I thought that it was important for us to know a little bit about engines.

01:36:18.840 - 01:36:48.540

I think we did get quite a lot on aerodynamics at that time, which helps you when you're trying to explain to somebody else what keeps that airplane in the air. It gave us a little knowledge that was comforting and helpful. I think all of the classes that they gave were well-designed for that purpose, to give

01:36:48.620 - 01:37:10.660

us knowledge that we needed and to help us understand. Kelly: When you finished the primary training, then what did you do? McMillan: Then we went into the basic, and that is when we did instrument flying. I cannot remember much more than instrument flying.

01:37:10.720 - 01:37:33.140

It seems to me that was most of it. We spent a lot of time in the link trainer and with the hood flying. When you were in training, did you have time off on weekends? Sometimes, but because of the bad weather, sometimes we were confined to base and flew

01:37:33.260 - 01:37:50.940

on Saturdays. I'm not sure that we ever flew on Sundays, but we had Saturday morning inspection was a big deal. Usually after that we would have time off, but not always.

01:37:51.360 - 01:38:06.280

Kelly: Describe that inspection. What would they do? Steele: Oh, that was when one of the lieutenants would come in with his white glove inspection and he would check for dust on top of the doorways and the framework of the door and

01:38:06.600 - 01:38:23.300

the top of the lockers. It was a big deal. All six of us would pitch in and straighten up our own lockers because we had to have our locker door open to see that everything was in order in the locker and the bed had

01:38:23.260 - 01:38:42.820

to be made exactly right, and all trash had to be taken out. I can remember we used to just throw the trash in the middle of the floor, or sometimes have a big box and throw it all in there. And then we would sweep and get that up and put that in the box and everything.

01:38:43.360 - 01:39:08.500

And we were a little late one morning, and they came in and we had to stand—in fact, We had to stand outside of the room and wait. We had all run out and left a big box full of trash right in the middle. We got demerits and had to be confined because we had failed inspection.

01:39:10.160 - 01:39:25.840

We had worked awfully hard, but nobody had been designated as "Tale and Charlie" pick up the box. As you would leave your bay to go to different areas, would you go individually? How would you get—?

01:39:26.460 - 01:39:49.020

We marched to dinner and we marched to class and marched to the flight line. But once we got to the flight line, we were able to do our hangar flying and swap stories and whatnot. Kelly: And as you would march, what would you do?

01:39:49.020 - 01:40:06.160

Rose: Oh, there was a lot of singing. They sang some pretty boisterous songs. Kelly: Do you recall some of those? Rose: Oh, I would not dare. I remember "Roll Me Over." Do you remember "Roll Me Over?" No.

01:40:07.400 - 01:40:30.680

Kelly: Did your mother ever find out what you were singing? Oh, no, my mother. I wouldn't even think of breathing something like that to my mother. Do you recall ever going into Sweetwater on a weekend? Oh, yes. We went into Sweetwater. I remember the high point of going into Sweetwater was

01:40:30.680 - 01:40:50.260

to come back by this little alley where there was a bakery. Did you all used to do that? You could smell those donuts. They were just coming out of the—I guess they fry them in grease and they drip on these racks.

01:40:51.000 - 01:41:07.340

The aroma was absolutely fabulous. Somebody would buy a dozen donuts and we would munch those while we were waiting for the bus to come pick us up. We would do away with a dozen donuts faster than you can say Jack Robinson.

01:41:09.320 - 01:41:28.380

Do you recall ever meeting any of the citizens of Sweetwater? Yes. At Christmas time, the citizens of Sweetwater opened their homes to us, and we were invited to Christmas dinner.

01:41:29.980 - 01:41:58.860

I was not there for Thanksgiving, but I am sure they did that for the girls who were there at Thanksgiving. I remember I had dinner work, a major amount of dinner work that was done. I was excused to go. They sent a bus in, I guess, on some Saturdays, because I never missed any flying time or any classes, and had this dental work done.

01:42:00.180 - 01:42:13.800

Kelly: By a dentist in town? McMillan: By a dentist in town, yeah. Kelly: You do not recall his name? McMillan: No, I do not, but his wife was right there with him, too. She was a receptionist

01:42:13.860 - 01:42:34.320

and she was a hygienist that worked with him. Do you remember a dinner that you went to in somebody's home? Yes, they had—it was a very lovely dinner, and she had put out a lot of effort. I think there were two of us that went that time, and we were very appreciative.

01:42:35.060 - 01:43:00.740

But it was wonderful for them to do that. But there is no substitute for home at Christmas time. And they had a boot store, and they made and sold Western boots. And they showed us some of their wares and explained how they ran the shop and whatnot.

01:43:01.280 - 01:43:15.340

And they were very lovely people. Do you recall their names? No, I am sorry. When you finished the basic training, then what was the next step?

01:43:15.600 - 01:43:27.920

After basic was advanced, and that is when you went into the big old AT-6. That was quite a thrill. I remember the checklist. How many things were on the checklist?

01:43:28.080 - 01:43:45.560

Weren't there like twenty-eight things? I thought, "How can I ever remember this? I have got to, I have got to, I have got to study this list." a thrill to get to advance and to be able to fly a plane. Six hundred and fifty horsepower?

01:43:47.120 - 01:44:16.020

Wow! After the meager start that we all had, it was quite a thrill. And I think the fact that there were larger airplanes with more horsepower drew a lot of the women who were already pilots, and they wanted to fly those larger airplanes and to have a chance at them. Kelly: Anything unusual happen?

01:44:17.230 - 01:44:42.880

Tell me about a cross-country you took. McMillan: I loved that. We went up to Blythe in California. to Blythe from Sweetwater and back. And when we got to Blythe, it was wonderful because

01:44:43.500 - 01:45:10.820

they were very happy to have us enjoy their officers' club pool and so on. And I guess an awful lot of Sweetwater gals went through there and they were used to seeing us come through. We were showered with questions and where we were going after this and whatnot. But I think it was pretty much the same cross-country for everybody.

01:45:12.120 - 01:45:45.220

But I can remember when I was in Advanced and we went on this cross-country. I took off from Sweetwater and we went to Tucson. I headed up toward Phoenix, and by George, here was a base down here off to my left, and that was not on the map.

01:45:45.760 - 01:45:58.060

I thought, "Am I off course? What have I done?" I checked all my figures and everything. By the time I finished checking, I could see that Phoenix was up here, so I forgot about

01:45:58.200 - 01:46:10.820

it. But when I graduated, guess where I was sent? I was sent right to that base in the middle of nowhere, really nowhere. It was a desert with nothing but cactus.

01:46:12.380 - 01:46:23.920

I thought, "Oh." Kelly: When you were in training, did your mom and dad seem to be worried? How did you correspond with them? Did they call you?

01:46:24.270 - 01:46:40.860

McMillan: I never got a telephone call, no. That was strictly for emergencies in our family. With five children, Dad was going to be sure he had control of that telephone bill. We were not encouraged to use the telephone, and they did not.

01:46:42.440 - 01:46:56.260

But I sent a telegram. When I finished my last check ride, I went into Sweetwater and I sent them a telegram and told them how I was going to graduate. I was so excited, and it was wonderful.

01:46:56.440 - 01:47:13.300

I wanted them—we were going to have two weeks off, and I said, "How about meeting me in Mexico City? It will be a nice break for you. It will be changed, and it is not so far from me to go, and I would love to do that."

01:47:13.460 - 01:47:31.220

They decided they could not do that. So I went down by myself, and I had a ball. I stayed at a darling little hotel, and I went all over that city. I did not blink an eye or anything.

01:47:31.740 - 01:47:49.960

Now I am a little bit hesitant about going places that I am not familiar with, but I was ready to soak up all of the culture that Mexico had to offer. Kelly: And you went, not even another WASP went with you? No, I was by myself.

01:47:51.820 - 01:48:06.600

Did you get home at all before you? No, no. It was a lot closer to go to Mexico. And I had been given a -- my sister was given a trip to Europe when she finished college. But when I finished college, the war was on.

01:48:07.120 - 01:48:24.820

So my parents sent me to Mexico for three months with a chaperone. And so I had been there before, and I knew the places that I wanted to go back and the things I wanted to do. And I just enjoyed it.

01:48:26.000 - 01:48:39.340

Wow. What is your most memorable thing about the training? Graduating. That was the focus, was to get those silver wings.

01:48:40.300 - 01:49:00.840

And I think I walked on air for a year after that. It was just—well, it just meant everything. There was nothing in the world that I wanted more than to get those wings. Kelly: When you first went to Avenger and up until much later in your training, what

01:49:00.920 - 01:49:24.700

were your uniforms like? Oh, we provided our own little white camp shirts and khaki slacks. And they called them the General's uniform, because the girls had no uniforms and there was a general, as I understood the story, that was to come and look over the base.

01:49:24.980 - 01:49:41.000

And they wanted everything to look military and everybody to look like they were dressed the same. So they said, "All right, most people have khaki slacks and a white shirt, and if you do not have them, get them."

01:49:41.540 - 01:50:00.920

So when the general came to look over the base, they had their general pants on and their general's uniform on. And that was kept really as the dress. They called it our dress uniform, because the rest of the time we went around in the

01:50:00.740 - 01:50:06.340

Zoot suits. Kelly: Okay. But at some point, you got a new uniform. Tell me about that.

01:50:06.410 - 01:50:28.860

McMillan: We did not get those until we graduated, and I was very proud of that. Neiman Marcus came in and measured us and made those uniforms for us, made them to order. And they were perfect. And we were so proud of them, with the brasses on, we looked so military.

01:50:29.100 - 01:50:45.340

We were all ready to be inducted into the old Army Air Corps, but they were not ready yet. Kelly: I wanted to ask you, aside from the snowstorm, when springtime came and summer, then how did that weather change?

01:50:45.500 - 01:51:08.240

What other obstacles were there with the weather? McMillan: It began to get hot. like in Florida. It goes from winter to summer, and you only have about, what, maybe at most two weeks of winter here when you are going to wear a jacket or a peacoat or something.

01:51:09.000 - 01:51:36.560

Not many days. But then spring is compressed into a day or two. I think it was that way in Sweetwater, too. When spring came, it was gone if you did not look fast. Kelly: How about the wind and the sand? McMillan: We had sandstorms there. I remember we closed all the windows and whatnot, but

01:51:36.660 - 01:52:00.600

we were not savvy enough to put wet towels down in front of the windows and the door. And it seeped in and seeped in, and we had to get it up with—sweep it up with a brush and a broom and a dustpan. It was incredible, the amount of debris that came in.

01:52:01.760 - 01:52:23.180

Kelly: When it came time for graduation, were you given a choice of assignments? No, we were just, we got our orders. Everybody was anxious to know where they were going to go. And when I got Marana, I did not know where it was until I got a map and I thought, "That

01:52:23.200 - 01:52:47.160

is that place out in the middle of nowhere. There is nothing anywhere around it but cactus." And five of us arrived at the old Pioneer Hotel in Tucson, which is no longer. And we were telling swapping stories about what we had been doing and where we had been

01:52:47.210 - 01:53:02.340

and whatnot. And somebody said, "Well, I hope somebody has a car and we can"—nobody had a car. And he said, "How are we going to get out to the base? It will cost a fortune in a taxi."

01:53:02.500 - 01:53:14.780

And I said, "Well, let's call the motor pool and tell them to come get us. We're here, come get us." So they said, "Well, you do it." So I picked up the phone and I called the base and I asked for the motor pool and I

01:53:14.800 - 01:53:28.680

said, "This is Mary Nesbitt, and I have five WASPs here that have orders to come to your base. near hotel, "Please come get us." "Yes, ma'am."

01:53:28.680 - 01:53:46.840

And they came and picked us up and took us out to the base. And we went directly to the CO's office and reported in. And then we went directly to the barracks, shed our clothes, put on our bathing suits, and went to the swimming pool.

01:53:47.820 - 01:54:13.840

And the most wonderful thing happened to me there, and I did not know it at the time. I had learned to swim when I was a child in Pensacola when Admiral Raby, who was the Admiral when we were stationed there, said he would teach me how to swim. He took me to the end of the wharf and threw me off and said, "Go like this."

01:54:13.840 - 01:54:30.800

And I was sputtering. I had water all in my lungs and my nose. I thought I was going to die, but Admiral Raby could do no wrong so far as I was concerned. He was very fond of children, and all of his children were grown.

01:54:31.000 - 01:55:04.400

And here was this little six-year-old, and he was awfully good to me. As a matter of fact, before we left Pensacola, he gave me some Navy miniature wings. He invited me and my older sister to his home for dinner with a white glove Filipino serving. Each vegetable dish, silver dish, was garnished with the carved vegetables in the form of

01:55:04.460 - 01:55:20.480

a bouquet and attached to the side of the dish. It was very elegant and very wonderful. And we said our goodbyes. He pulled out these wings and he said, "I want to give these to you because I did not

01:55:20.520 - 01:55:44.180

invite your brothers because I cannot give them to them. They will have to earn them, but you will never earn your wings." And so I wanted so much to look up Admiral Raby and say, "Hey, I got some wings. They are not the gold wings that you gave me, but they are the silver wings of the Wasp."

01:55:44.180 - 01:55:58.040

And he had been killed in an automobile accident two weeks before I called him. But he— Tell me what your graduation was like. Let me tell you first about Admiral Raby.

01:55:59.520 - 01:56:19.340

And Lindbergh had finished this famous flight that had absolutely charged the world with energy. And I do not remember now what the prize was, I think it was $50,000, which in that day and time was an enormous amount of money.

01:56:22.900 - 01:56:44.100

He had invited and Lindbergh had planned to stop at Pensacola Naval Air Base on his tour of the United States, you might call it his victory tour, after his successful flight across the Atlantic. What year was this, Mary?

01:56:44.360 - 01:57:03.940

It was 1927. And Admiral Rabia arranged a reception for Lindbergh for all of the officers and their families. So even my little brother, who really didn't know what was going on, went to the reception.

01:57:04.520 - 01:57:26.440

And we were in the receiving line, and we got to shake his hand. And I can remember my older brother said, "I'm never going to wash my hands again." He was such a hero. To me, there has been no generation since then that has had a hero that electrified

01:57:26.540 - 01:57:42.320

the world like he did. It was a first that was unexpected because there had been several failures, and I am sure many people had bets on his failing as well. I mean, the odds were on their side.

01:57:43.260 - 01:58:03.780

But it was an event that the whole world had their eyes on. Kelly: And he was the first? Steele: He was the first man that flew across the Atlantic with an airplane. And he did it alone with a kitten and stayed awake, I think it was thirty-six hours.

01:58:05.560 - 01:58:22.360

It was an incredible, incredible thing to do. The courage that it would take to attempt it because of the gasoline. He had figured everything out. He had to have a light plane with a lot of gasoline.

01:58:23.940 - 01:58:45.960

He knew what he was in for, but how he kept his eyes open to stay straight and level, I will never know. But it had to be absolutely determination of the most gripping sort. Do you recall when you went through that receiving line, do you recall what he did?

01:58:46.320 - 01:59:05.260

I can remember looking up like this to see him. And of course there was so much talk about it afterwards. And I said, "I think he's going to wait and he's going to marry me." And I was so disappointed when he married Anne Murrow.

01:59:06.060 - 01:59:25.620

And I thought, "Oh, he didn't wait for me." But then after I read some books about him, I found out he was a better pilot than he was a husband. He would go off and not tell her when he would be back, but he would tell her she had to

01:59:25.380 - 01:59:36.740

have this book finished and this kid had to have this assignment finished and this had to be done and this had to be done. And he would be gone for months at a time. And I decided, boy, was I lucky.

01:59:38.820 - 02:00:00.700

I was lucky he did not wait for me. But when we took our clothes off, after checking in with the CO, we went to the swimming pool. And I loved to swim. I enjoyed swimming. I was interrupted. You are doing laps or trying to, and this head

02:00:00.800 - 02:00:33.240

pops up in front of me. A good-looking guy says, "I am from Georgia. Where are you all from?" I put on my best Southern accent and I said, "I am from Virginia." With that, he was gone. I didn't see him for three days, but then I married him the following March. And he turned out to be a wonderful husband. He was kind and thoughtful and generous and

02:00:33.900 - 02:01:03.160

smart as a whip. He was a far better husband than Lindbergh would have been. What was the he doing at that airbase? He was an instructor pilot, and he had four classes of Chinese that could not speak English. And if you washed out one of them, they lost face, and that ruined their whole life.

02:01:05.100 - 02:01:24.520

And I said, "How on earth can you teach somebody to fly when you can't communicate with them?" And he said, "Well, there was an interpreter that they made up signs, hand signs, and of Of course, you remember they used to tap when we did not have an interphone. They would tap, "I will take the stick.

02:01:24.640 - 02:01:37.300

I am in control now. Let go." They had hand signals for everything, and then the interpreter would talk to them afterwards and before a flight.

02:01:38.560 - 02:01:57.680

I think I better get a drink of water. He had an older sister, and she was ten years older than he was. So you know how many bows she had with two little ones to take care of. He worked for every nickel.

02:01:58.500 - 02:02:07.480

He would caddy. He would work at the grocery store. He would sweep out people's garages. He would do anything for whatever.

02:02:10.260 - 02:02:31.620

His sister saw him through high school, and he thought, "I don't want to be a store clerk all of my life or a handyman around town." And he said, "I'm going to join the Navy." And he went into the Navy and spent four years there and ended up in Pearl Harbor.

02:02:31.920 - 02:02:50.480

His four years was over, but they wouldn't discharge him until they got him back to the States. They got him back to the States, Pearl Harbor happened. When he got home, he was still on the West Coast, when he got home, here was the letter.

02:02:51.560 - 02:03:12.580

It was from the Navy, and they said, "We'll give you new construction." In other words, "You'll be off on your own until something comes down the ways, a new noob ship and we need a crew for it, and then we will make you a chief petty officer." This took a lot of courage, I think.

02:03:13.360 - 02:03:34.520

And he said, "Thanks, but no thanks. I want to be an officer." And he figured out that if he could get his wings, he would be an officer. So he went in and took a chance on being drafted and applied for the Air Corps.

02:03:35.860 - 02:03:46.580

And he got in and he went through. And he graduated about a year before I did. He had been at Marana for a while when I got there. Kelly: Okay.

02:03:46.920 - 02:04:02.380

She has got to change the tape. That is extraordinary. Yeah, what a story. you met this young man in the swimming pool, then when is the next contact you had with

02:04:02.500 - 02:04:24.940

him? Well, I did not hear a word for three days. I wondered where he is. I dated a couple of other lieutenants that were there on the base and finally got a call from him, but I did not even know his name. When he called, I said, "I do not think I know you." He said,

02:04:25.220 - 02:04:56.660

"Yes, you do. I'll see you." He didn't say, "Wait until I said it was okay." He said, "I'll see you tonight. I'll be there at eight o'clock." Of course, I recognized him when I went down. I said, "Oh, yes, I know you. You're from George." But it was a funny thing. I did not date anybody else, and I thought, "You know, there are 3,000 men on this base."

02:04:57.520 - 02:05:16.620

I found out after we got married, he had told them, "That one is mine. Do not go near that." Kelly: What was your assignment at that airbase? Lowry: I was a test pilot to work out of the maintenance department, because the Army wanted

02:05:16.620 - 02:05:35.680

every airplane that came out of maintenance to be perfectly safe for a student or anybody else to fly. If it was all in the line, it should be an airplane safe to fly. The best way to be sure is to have somebody designated to go up and put it through its

02:05:35.760 - 02:05:50.760

paces. We would go up to 10,000 feet and spin it down, go back to the base, and go to the next airplane. as being okay, or you did not like a sound that you heard, or you did not like one thing

02:05:50.820 - 02:06:16.040

or another. But I was very, very fortunate. There was a Lieutenant Taylor who was a head of maintenance there. Evidently, he had been working with airplane engines all of his life. He was an older man, I would say he was probably 40 at the time. He knew his business and he ran

02:06:16.100 - 02:06:42.400

a tight ship. I do not think all of the girls who were test pilots working out of maintenance had that sort of good luck. There were some of them that had very bad experiences. Kelly: Were you the first WASP assigned to that base? were about five of them there already when we arrived, and there were five of us. It

02:06:42.420 - 02:07:13.640

was really funny when I got there again. I mean, the barracks were bare-bones things and had wallboard on two walls, on the outside wall and one inside wall. The other inside wall was closed off by a wallboard in the next door room. Here you had all these two-by-fours sticking out. None of it was painted, and it was grim. I decided, "Well, if I'm going

02:07:13.640 - 02:07:43.300

to be here, I'm going to make it home right." I got Becky, who had bought a car, to take me into town. I bought yards and yards and yards of monk's cloth and some chintz that had a beautiful pattern of roses and flowers. I have always liked flowers. I cut those medallions of flowers out and applied them onto the monk's

02:07:43.380 - 02:08:19.180

cloth in certain places. I spread them around on top of the bedspreads. I had a dressing table and there was one on that. It was really sort of like a knee-hold desk, but I made a dressing table with a skirt around it. On the outside walls, I hung monk's cloth so that those two-by-fours on either side of the window were not showing. It really improved

02:08:19.180 - 02:08:42.240

the looks of the room and I painted it seafoam green with Kemptone. Do you remember Kemptone from Sears? And I put a number rug on the floor. And it really looked, I thought, as well as it could look when you consider what I had to work with. When I went off to instrument school, when I got orders to go, they had an inspection.

02:08:43.000 - 02:09:05.020

And when the inspectors came to this room, they were appalled to think that anybody had It had the audacity to paint this room and dial it up like a sissy. Someday there might be men in here again. They said, "Who did this?"

02:09:05.020 - 02:09:14.760

And they said, "Oh, Mary Nesbitt did this. She's in Sweetwater now." And he walked out of the room and that was the last I ever or anybody else ever heard about it.

02:09:16.740 - 02:09:33.180

But if I had been there, I think I would have really gotten reprimanded. Kelly: What kind of airplanes were you flying? What kind of base was this? Steele: This was a basic training school, and there were mostly BT-13s.

02:09:33.220 - 02:09:45.520

There were a few AT-6s. They were very good to us. They called them training flights. And if we found somebody that would go with us, we could go on a cross-country.

02:09:48.060 - 02:10:13.240

They would be in one airplane and you would be in another. And this worked out well because we found out—I had some friends in El Paso and I had this attraction to Mexico. So I found somebody that had a reason for going to El Paso.

02:10:13.920 - 02:10:30.860

I said, "Well, you be my buddy and I will fly down there and stay with my friends and go over across the border and have dinner and whatnot." Another girl wanted to go too. So there were three airplanes and we went.

02:10:30.890 - 02:10:51.740

We had a wonderful time. Peggy Nispel was one of my baymates, and Peggy wanted to go also. But they said, "No, a buddy with two, that's enough. So you can go another time."

02:10:52.920 - 02:11:11.680

We had a great weekend, and it wasn't too long after that that Peggy found a buddy that would let her fly with him, or he would fly to make sure that she got there and there was no problems and everything. They had a great weekend, started back.

02:11:13.560 - 02:11:34.440

Peggy had gotten her flight plan and it was recorded. Peggy did not come home, and Peggy did not come home. And it got darker and darker, and Peggy was not in. And the next morning, Peggy was not there.

02:11:36.140 - 02:11:57.040

And Peggy showed up about three days later, and her buddy had come home. And his airplane was a little faster, and he was in a hurry, and he really was not watching her. And I think he must have been in Dreamland or something, but he went home.

02:11:57.840 - 02:12:13.780

And when he got there, there was no Peggy. And it turned out that her airplane was just slow enough that she got a little further behind him and a little further behind him and a little further behind him until he was out of sight.

02:12:13.980 - 02:12:31.580

And it started getting dark. And she was a smoker, and she said she was lighting matches to look at the instruments to fly. And then she ran out of matches, and she decided she had better get out of that airplane because

02:12:31.680 - 02:12:52.920

she was off course and who knows. So she parachuted, and she got down on the ground. She was, of course, in unknown territory, and she thought it would be best—she gathered up a parachute and wrapped it around her and pulled it up.

02:12:54.520 - 02:13:13.500

she had pulled it up into the tree. She climbed into a little muskeet tree, which does not get very big, but at least it gets you away from the snakes. She did not know what was out there. The next morning, she started walking. She tried to watch the sun and not walk in circles,

02:13:13.760 - 02:13:43.740

to keep on an even path. She walked for two days, and she came up to this little filling station out in the middle of nowhere and asked if she could have something to eat and use the telephone. She called in and told them where she was, and they came to get her. They found the plane, and they said there wasn't a piece of that airplane that was bigger than

02:13:45.760 - 02:14:03.300

It went in because it went out of gas, finally. I do not know how long it took them to find that. I think they found Peggy before they found the airplane. She became a member of the Caterpillar Club, and she was very proud of that.

02:14:03.760 - 02:14:17.500

But I would not want to have to go through the experience that she went through to get it. Did she keep on flying then? Oh, yes, she stayed in until we were disbanded, absolutely.

02:14:18.420 - 02:14:33.640

They did not consider it her fault. They reprimanded the man that was supposed to be watching after her. Kelly: While you were at this base, then you got temporary orders. Tell us about that experience.

02:14:33.640 - 02:14:53.100

McMillan: I got temporary orders to go back to Sweetwater for advanced instrument training. I wish I could remember how long that course was. I think it was a month, but it may—I do not know. That is within two weeks, one way or the other, as to how long it was.

02:14:53.660 - 02:15:16.600

But it was a very, very demanding course, and it required concentration that I had never been called on to come up with before. I was very, very proud of that green card, because there were a lot of pilots in the Air Corps that would have given their right arm, so to speak, for a green card.

02:15:16.760 - 02:15:25.820

And I had one. Why do you think they sent you? Were you going to be an instrument instructor? Do you know the reason?

02:15:25.860 - 02:15:43.320

I have no idea. In fact, to me, it has never fit as to why I was sent there. Because some of the girls did go back to instructor class. I met one of them at Tucson.

02:15:43.450 - 02:15:58.600

She said, "I've never had trouble getting a job. Go to an airfield and they'll always use another instructor." And of course, after the war, everybody wanted to learn to fly. Kelly: Were you the only WASP from that base that went back for instruments?

02:15:58.600 - 02:16:12.180

McMillan: I was the only one, yes. And when you got to Sweetwater, were there other WASPs also from other fields? >> There were other WASPs there, but there again, they kept us so busy with our nose to the grindstone, and I really --

02:16:12.180 - 02:16:21.560

I don't remember the other girls. >> Where did you live? >> We had barracks, right. We had the barracks, but I didn't have to share it with five others.

02:16:21.740 - 02:16:29.580

>> But it was the same buildings? >> They were the same buildings. >> That you had lived in? >> Yeah.

02:16:29.660 - 02:16:49.880

And then, did your friend—how did you get to Sweetwater? Oh, my friend that I had met at the swimming pool volunteered to take me to Sweetwater, but it was considered off-base because they did not want people just coming in there to meet girls.

02:16:50.260 - 02:17:15.400

And they were very strict about letting people land. So when the airplane came to a halt in front of the operations office, the operations officer was there waiting for us. He had gotten a jeep and come out to meet us, as a matter of fact.

02:17:16.230 - 02:17:39.280

He did not want us to do anything but get to the other end of the runway and take off again because he did not know. But when he started on his diatribe about this is an off-base landing field and you cannot land here, and Lou just pulled out his orders and opened them up and handed them

02:17:39.400 - 02:17:47.260

to him. And the operations officer had nothing to say. He said, "Well, come on. Park over there."

02:17:47.260 - 02:17:55.800

And then Lou went back to the field. And how did you get back to your base from Avenger? He came to get me. He came back.

02:17:55.960 - 02:18:27.820

Yeah, he came to get me. When you were dating him at the field, small town, what did you do for fun? There was a place called Mountain Lemon, and it was a huge park and mountain with an ice-cold stream. We would get another couple and we would go up there and we would swim and take

02:18:27.840 - 02:19:04.420

a picnic with us. He was a great one for picnics, but we would have a great time breaking the and getting to know each other better. But he liked baseball. We went to the baseball game a couple of times. I was never a baseball fan, but I could sit through anything with him. It seems to me that was about the only thing. On weekends, sometimes we would have

02:19:04.320 - 02:19:25.080

a picnic and we would fly over to an auxiliary field and have a picnic in the shade of the shack or underneath the wing of the airplane and sit and talk. I do not think either one of us realized how hot it was. Did you have other assignments other than test flying the airplanes?

02:19:25.260 - 02:19:39.900

Did you ferry any of them to graveyards? No, I did not do any ferrying at all. Then after the war, when they started ferrying excess airplanes to the graveyards, we were in Madrid then.

02:19:41.320 - 02:20:00.000

I had a child in school and I thought it was best not to try to come back and participate. Do you recall how you heard about the fact the WASPs were going to be disbanded and how did that make you feel? Oh, I cannot tell you how disappointed we were.

02:20:00.380 - 02:20:23.220

All of us were just crestfallen because we knew that we were helping, and we knew we were doing jobs that released men to go overseas. But I think they could see that they were getting the upper hand in Europe and just beginning to get it.

02:20:24.620 - 02:20:54.400

And this business of incorporating us into the Army Air Corps had come up. They were not ready for us yet to be permanent, and so the whole thing was just squelched. I heard about it when we were all called into the assembly room. It seems to me it was for a graduation, a group were going to graduate.

02:20:55.320 - 02:21:21.400

It could not have been because we did not know about it that soon. But we were over in—maybe I heard about it when I was in instrument school and they announced that they were going to be disbanded on December 20th. But oh, that was a very down day for everybody.

02:21:21.640 - 02:21:44.620

We just could not believe that they would do that to us. They had invested $100,000 a piece in each of us teaching us to fly going through the same course that the cadets had, and we could not believe that they would let us go. But they did.

02:21:45.660 - 02:21:59.640

Then how were you notified? I think we just were told. I do not remember getting orders. We did not get discharge orders until years later.

02:22:01.540 - 02:22:18.040

When you were disbanded, did the air base do anything special for the WASP? No. We were such a small contingent and they still had a mission to carry on. There was no special hoopla.

02:22:18.200 - 02:22:30.940

Kelly: Anything unusual happen while you were stationed there that you have not told us about? Roslyn: My husband asked me to marry him. That was pretty important to me.

02:22:31.680 - 02:22:59.280

I think that helped soften the blow about the WASP being disbanded. They also told us that if there was someone who would take us home, they would let them have an airplane to take us home. And of course, December, the weather is not all that great, but Lou said he would take me home, and he wanted to see my parents and ask for my hand.

02:23:01.000 - 02:23:27.120

So off we went on December 7th, and I left my beautiful little green room. I think most of the things that I had put in it, because what can you take in an AT-6? That is what we were going home in. Kelly: In the meantime, did your parents know that you were dating this young man?

02:23:27.120 - 02:23:35.740

I told him that I had met this attractive man. Kelly: Okay. That is as far as you had gone. McMillan: Yeah, that is about as far as I had gone.

02:23:39.540 - 02:24:02.560

We got as far as Memphis, Tennessee, and they said, "You cannot land. We are under the minimums. The ceiling is too low." Lew said, "I haven't got an alternative field that will get me there with the gasoline

02:24:02.680 - 02:24:20.000

I have. I'm going to have to come in." We followed the river, and we were down below the banks of the river. I could look in and I could see people trimming their Christmas trees, and the lights were

02:24:19.880 - 02:24:31.520

on and preparing for Christmas and everything. And Lou said, "Whoops, we've got to go up. I see a bridge." And over the bridge we went.

02:24:32.920 - 02:24:49.920

And we went into the field and he put it down. I called my parents, and that was a mistake. That was a big mistake. Mother said, "Where are you?"

02:24:50.660 - 02:25:00.160

And I said, "We're in Memphis." She said, "We?" And I said, "Yes." "Who is we?"

02:25:01.260 - 02:25:16.000

"Lieutenant Hearn and I." She said, "Mary, you get on that train this minute, and you come straight home." And I said, "Mother, I can't do that. I haven't got any transportation. I haven't got a train ticket. I don't know where the train station is.

02:25:16.340 - 02:25:29.760

We'll be home in a day or two." She said, "Mary, you get on the closest train that you can get on and come home." And so the next morning we were very fortunate. The weather had lifted.

02:25:30.560 - 02:25:50.660

We had separate rooms. Nothing had happened that would have upset my mother. But of course, in her day, such a thing, a woman's reputation was completely gone if they had been together without a chaperone or when it was dark after dark.

02:25:52.600 - 02:26:20.020

So she was very upset about that. I think both of them, both mother and dad, were upset about the fact that we had had to RON on the way home because we had not planned to. But anyhow, we had dinner and I thought, "He is going to ask Dad any minute now. He is going to ask Dad any minute."

02:26:20.020 - 02:26:38.980

Well, time went on and I got sleepier and sleepier and I thought, "He is not going to ask. He is not going to ask. We are not going to get married." I said, "I think I'm going to go to bed." Lou said, "I think maybe it is time to break up."

02:26:40.660 - 02:26:58.380

That was the end of the evening. I went to bed and I cried, and I cried, and I cried. He's not going to ask my parents, "We're not going to get married." The next morning at breakfast, Maggie was serving breakfast and had put this grapefruit

02:26:58.460 - 02:27:24.940

down in front of my father. first bite of grapefruit that had been prepared. He picked it up and Lou said, "Sir, I want to marry your daughter." He dropped the spoon and it clattered and the grapefruit went all over the table. Dad said, "What?" Mother did not have anything to say at all.

02:27:25.000 - 02:27:38.520

I know she thought, "Well, if they spent the night together, she's ruined, and might as well." So nothing else was said. Dad never said a word.

02:27:41.820 - 02:27:57.220

I thought he would say, "Well, how are you prepared to take care of her?" Because I know what he had asked my brothers. When they came in and said, "Well, I think I'm going to ask this girl to marry me," "Now, how much money do you have put aside?

02:27:57.440 - 02:28:05.980

What are your plans? Do you feel secure in your job?" And what not. And Dad didn't say a word.

02:28:07.360 - 02:28:18.360

And the embarrassing thing was that Lou packed up after breakfast, went out to the airport, and they were weathered in. He couldn't get off. And he came back with his little suitcase.

02:28:18.840 - 02:28:30.940

That took a lot of courage, I think. It would have been very hard to do. But he got off the second morning. Did you go with him out to the airport?

02:28:30.950 - 02:28:50.340

No, I did not. It was a long ways out and he got a cab, I am sure. Nothing was said ever in the household. About what must have been the middle of February, Mother said, "Are you really going to marry

02:28:50.440 - 02:29:10.920

that boy?" Boy. And I said, "Yes, we're going to get married." And she said, "Well, I'd better get busy here." And she started putting together the wedding. And St. Margaret's was just across the street, and I went over and talked to him. And the thing that really turned Dad

02:29:10.980 - 02:29:41.520

off was that Lou said, "If you have to have a marriage license, you'd better get it before I come because I could be delayed on the way and not be able to get it. So I went down and I bought the marriage certificate. And Dad thought that was awful. That was not my place. It was the place of the groom to do that. But he never did give us his blessings.

02:29:42.380 - 02:30:06.040

he never lived to know what a wonderful husband I had. But I was sure I had a wonderful husband because he had so many fine qualities that were like my father. And I knew that my father was a wonderful man. I was going to ask you the qualities that he had that made you fall in love with him.

02:30:06.400 - 02:30:33.500

Well I think at first he had an enormous amount of energy. And when there was a job to do it immediately and he did it as best he could. And that impressed me because, as you well know, there were a lot of gold-brickers around. And he was that way throughout his career. If he was given a job, he would roll up his sleeves and do it and do a good job of it.

02:30:34.260 - 02:30:53.580

He knew what it was to work, and I admired that in him. I also had the sense that he was a very truthful young man. He did not try to be somebody that he was not. He told me right away that he had nothing, that he came from a family where the mother

02:30:53.660 - 02:31:19.120

and father were gone. So I did not marry him for his money, and he did not marry me for mine because I did didn't have a nickel in my own name at that time. Or maybe I had a little bit, but not much. So he was consistent. And he was not moody at all. He was always in a good mood,

02:31:19.240 - 02:31:52.320

always happy, always positive. And he was a great one to look ahead and plan things ahead. He was extremely generous. After we got married, I thought he was very, very generous and kind. He was a gentleman. I mean, to his very fingertips. He may not have been brought up on the right side of the tracks, but he was highly observant, and he knew how to behave

02:31:52.320 - 02:32:13.320

like a gentleman. I think his mother was a very gentle person and his older sister was a very gentle person. So he had qualities that kept coming out that were, I thought, extremely admirable. Where were your mom and dad living at that time?

02:32:13.480 - 02:32:27.560

They were living in the apartment, which is next to what's now the Hilton in Washington. In Washington. My dad was still in Washington at that time. And then did your mom plan the whole wedding?

02:32:27.860 - 02:32:40.640

She planned the whole thing, yeah. And we had a reception in the house. It was all very simple. And what they spend on weddings now is amazing to me.

02:32:40.740 - 02:32:57.480

And families would go into debt to put on a big spread. And we had just a little reception. I did ask to have a limousine to take me to the church and bring me home. It was across the street, but it was March and it could have been raining.

02:32:58.700 - 02:33:11.660

And I thought I'd better cover all the bases, so I did have a limo. Did your dad give you away? And dad gave me away, walked me down the aisle. What was your dress like?

02:33:12.960 - 02:33:29.760

I have a picture of it. The truth is, it had been my sister's wedding dress, and they cut it down to fit me. And it was long sleeve, lace top, high neck. They don't do that anymore.

02:33:31.140 - 02:33:45.620

And it was fitted to the hips, and then there was a little ruffle, and then the skirt billowed out, and there was a train to it. Was your whole family at the wedding? No.

02:33:51.400 - 02:34:07.020

My oldest brother was there, and my sister was there. My mother and my father and Aunt Mimi was there. And that was it. The other two boys were not there.

02:34:08.400 - 02:34:17.580

Then where did you go on your honeymoon? Well, we did not have any money. And Aunt Mimi had an apartment. And she said, "Why?"

02:34:17.580 - 02:34:30.140

It was cherry blossom time. We probably could not have gotten—or just before people were beginning to come in for that. And Aunt Mimi said, "I will come up and take your room at your parents' apartment,

02:34:30.640 - 02:34:56.380

and you can have my apartment for two weeks." So we had two weeks in the apartment. and went through all of the museums, all of the public buildings, and wandered around the reflective pools there at the mall where you have the Lincoln Memorial at one end and

02:34:56.440 - 02:35:24.320

Washington Monument at the other end. I had a lot to tell Lou about that reflecting pool because when Dad was—I guess I was in the third grade or so—and Dad used to, on Saturday afternoons, if he had the day off, we would have tickets to a musical at the National Theater, and all five of us would

02:35:24.360 - 02:35:48.820

go with Mother and Dad and sometimes Aunt Mimi. We often had one car, and often if Mother needed the car, Dad would take the street car to work and she would have the car to do whatever it was she needed to do. And then she would pile all of us in the car and go down to pick Dad up from work.

02:35:49.660 - 02:36:02.660

And sometimes we had to wait a while, because he did not race out of the office the minute the bell rang. And if he had something to do, he wanted to finish doing it. So I had brought my skates.

02:36:03.380 - 02:36:23.160

And I was skating around the reflective pool and skating around and lost control and skated right into the pool. And here we were, all dressed and ready to go to the theater. And here is Mary dripping wet."

02:36:23.160 - 02:36:44.380

So I think Mom dropped everybody else at the theater and she took me home and I was scolded roundly. She left me there and she went back to pick everybody else up. But I was in the doghouse for a long time because I had knocked her out of seeing.

02:36:44.900 - 02:37:03.160

And we used to go to things like the Red Mill and the Chocolate Soldier. You know, they were light musicals that anybody could enjoy with melody and tunes that you do not get anymore. Now it is just the big beat.

02:37:04.020 - 02:37:39.540

Kelly: At the end of the two weeks, how did you get back to his base? We took the train, we took an airplane, and we were bumped in Memphis and had to go to the Traveler's Aid or something like that to try to get train tickets out. And of course travel was so difficult, and if you had a priority then somebody got left

02:37:39.540 - 02:38:02.480

off and we did not have any priority at all. He was supposed to get back at a certain time, and we felt that time was of the essence. He was forward-looking enough, we probably started a day or two early. We got a hotel in Memphis, and I remember, I will never forget it as long as I live.

02:38:03.720 - 02:38:29.040

There was a knock on the door and somebody came in the room. It was a plumber, and he "Plumber, we've come to fix the leak in the sink," and I put my head under the covers. I thought it was the most embarrassing thing on earth to be caught in bed. He didn't know that we were married. I wanted to stick my hand out and show him my wedding ring. But

02:38:29.460 - 02:38:47.020

oh, what a time we had. And it just so happened that morning, when we got up and we went down to the train station and went to Traveler's Aid, there was a woman there whose husband had graduated from Marana.

02:38:49.900 - 02:39:17.940

She knew Marana from that, because while he was in training, she had been in Tucson. So she pulled out all the stops and found tickets for us, and one birth, one upper birth. So that was an experience, too. I was so afraid it would collapse on the people below.

02:39:21.060 - 02:39:31.180

But we did a lot of things then that you are not asked to do now. It wasn't like trying to get into that AT-6, huh? [Laughter] Steele: No.

02:39:32.540 - 02:39:41.920

We could get up there and we could get out at that time. Kelly: Right. So when you got back to Marana, where did you live? Steele: We didn't have a place to live.

02:39:42.100 - 02:40:06.820

So when we first got there, we called a real good buddy of his who had been an attendant at the wedding, Sanky Hall. And Sankey said, "Well, come on over. You can spend a couple of nights with us until you can find a place." And we found a motel the next day or two. And she was an old married

02:40:06.960 - 02:40:20.020

woman. They had been married at least three or four months before we were, and so she wanted to tell me. But the one thing you have to remember is you have to always keep the sink wiped out. You have to wipe out the sink every day.

02:40:21.980 - 02:40:29.900

Big news. [Laughter] Kelly: Did your husband—I forgot to ask it—did he wear his uniform when you were married?

02:40:30.110 - 02:40:43.980

Steele: Oh, yes. And he had forgotten to bring an extra shirt that was with his uniform, so he wore a dirty shirt to the wedding. Kelly: Okay.

02:40:44.200 - 02:41:06.260

Then you got an apartment. McMillan. We were able to find, they called it an apartment. A retired nurse had converted her back porch into an apartment. And you came in one room and there was another room and then there was a little bathroom and then there was a kitchen. There were three little

02:41:06.260 - 02:41:38.300

tiny rooms, about this big. And we could not decide, because the way it was set up when we went in, the bedroom was first and then the living room was in the middle. Now, why they had fixed it that way, I do not know. But that is the way it was fixed. And we stayed there until he was transferred. And we found out about discrimination because there were

02:41:38.320 - 02:42:12.780

an awful lot of people that did not want these wild Air Force people in their property. And Because they really did not—but this nurse was good enough to let us in. She had had an Air Force couple in before us, and she did not know she was getting a bride that did not know how to keep house.

02:42:13.760 - 02:42:26.520

Kelly: How did you spend your time when he was flying? McMillan: Cooking. Kelly: Oh, you learned to cook. McMillan: I did it because I thought it was a good idea to learn something.

02:42:26.540 - 02:42:45.460

I had never cooked a meal in my life, and I thought I better get busy and learn. So I would study the cookbooks and read the cookbooks, and occasionally I would get in a novel. But mostly I was trying to learn to cook, and Lou was very patient with me.

02:42:46.140 - 02:43:11.860

I remember one day, he was so enthusiastic, and he came home from work one day and I had just put some brand muffins in the oven. And I thought, "I'm going to surprise him and have something real good for him tonight." And he came in and said, "Guess what? There's really a great movie on in town. Let's go!" So I grabbed my coat and off we went. And

02:43:11.940 - 02:43:33.620

when we came home, the fire engines were there. And the muffins had not burned the place down, But they had smoked and they had burned inside the oven. And of course, our precious little nurse had called the fire department to explore and find out what the problem was.

02:43:33.680 - 02:43:58.680

And they had found my muffins and gotten everything under control. But I felt like an utter idiot. Kelly: Then how long was he stationed there before you were transferred? McMillan: A matter of months. A matter of months. And then we were sent to Bakersfield.

02:43:59.200 - 02:44:20.780

Kelly: What was his assignment? McMillan: We were there maybe a month and a half, two months. They were beginning to close up bases then, and they would close up bases under us and move us. Kelly: Was it also a basic training base?

02:44:21.110 - 02:44:37.340

McMillan: I do not even know. I really do not know what was at Bakersfield. I cannot remember what he was doing there. Kelly: But you were there just a short time? McMillan: A very short time, maybe six weeks or a month. But I was pregnant by that time,

02:44:38.300 - 02:44:54.780

And we had this darling little cottage out in the middle of a cotton field. It was out of town, and I do not know how Lou found it. Maybe it was on the bulletin board at the base or something. And we were tickled to death to be there.

02:44:56.220 - 02:45:06.460

And pack everything, off we went again. And then where did you go? Then we went to Sherman, Texas. Okay.

02:45:06.700 - 02:45:20.420

Back to Texas. A cotton field. Yeah, we lived in that little cotton field. And then the next place was Sherman, Texas.

02:45:21.660 - 02:45:53.740

And in Sherman, we had a terrible time finding a place to live. The morning after we got up, when we arrived one evening, we got up the next morning and here in the paper was—it had a frame around it. "Anyone who has a room to rent or an apartment to rent, please list it at such and such a

02:45:53.960 - 02:46:13.000

number. There are going to be 350 officers coming in within a week. So we knew we had to find something immediately. We started looking, and we found an older home, big home, that had been converted into

02:46:13.200 - 02:46:36.940

apartments. We could have what they called an apartment, which was one large room and a bath. They had a screen, and behind the screen was a hotplate with two burners on it. And there was no refrigerator, and there was no regular stove, but that was an apartment

02:46:37.120 - 02:46:54.300

in those days, and we were happy to get it. But in the meantime, I was getting bigger and bigger, and the baby was going to come. And Lou looked at me one morning, he said, "Honey, you can't take care of diapers and take care of a baby in this.

02:46:54.420 - 02:47:19.780

You'll have bottles that need to be cleaned, and you'll have to have a refrigerator." He said, "I'm going to call your parents and ask if I can send you home to have the baby." So he put me on the airplane, and I went back to Wytheville, Virginia. Because when Dad retired from the service and they were living in Washington, they decided

02:47:19.780 - 02:47:35.360

they wanted to find a home where all of us could come. Dad was convinced after being brought up at his father's house that he wanted a great big house. And so they found this huge house in Wytheville, Virginia.

02:47:36.080 - 02:47:58.520

I don't know how many rooms it had, but it was equipped with servants' quarters, a sewing room, a music room, a reception room, a dining room that was huge. The dining room was larger than this room, it was wider. It was great columns out front and a portico chair on one side and a sunroom on the other

02:47:58.640 - 02:48:08.780

side. It was a beautiful house that they bought. And Dad wanted, at Christmas time, he wanted all of his children to come home with their families and have a place to put them.

02:48:09.820 - 02:48:25.900

And that is what we did. And it was a beautiful house. I was very, very fortunate because there was a little woman that lived down the lane and she would come to the house every day and get the diapers and do the diapers for me.

02:48:27.200 - 02:48:45.140

It was wonderful to have somebody in the kitchen and somebody that helped her. And all I had to do was take care of the baby. How long after you arrived back home did you have the baby? I think it was one month.

02:48:45.840 - 02:49:03.520

Okay. And they shot me full of iron because I had low blood. But they were-- Seventh Day Adventists had a place there and had a foothold in that community.

02:49:05.220 - 02:49:40.600

The doctor was Seventh-day Adventist, and they did not believe in pain. They had taken over an old home like my parents, and that was the hospital. They had made a hospital out of it. It was at least three blocks from Dad's house. When I said, "You know, I nervous and he could not start the car. He probably flooded the carburetor or whatnot,

02:49:41.180 - 02:50:02.540

but he was in a huff. I could have walked over there, but he was determined it was after dark and he was going to take me to the hospital, which he did. They dropped me off. I do not know when Pat came, sometime in the morning, I think early, early, early in the morning and I knew that she was a little girl.

02:50:03.280 - 02:50:21.160

And I had all these colors that went like a kaleidoscope because they gave ether at that time. I decided that it was a good thing. I hated this mountain in front of me and it seemed to me that it was months and months

02:50:21.220 - 02:50:40.760

that I would dream that I had the baby and I would wake up and here was a mountain just a little bit bigger. I did not like that last month at all. It was bad. But I think everybody goes through that, that has a baby. Kelly: Then did Joe get to come to your family?

02:50:41.220 - 02:51:20.060

McMillan: Lou came back to see me with Phil. I think he was able to get back once. Then at, what's the airbase there? It's a big one, been there forever. Kelly, Lackland, Randolph. Randolph. He was assigned to Randolph. I said, "Well, I had met a woman when I was on that

02:51:20.060 - 02:51:46.900

trip to Mexico after I graduated from college. Her hobby was to buy condemned houses or old houses that had been on the market a long time, and she would negotiate and get them for practically nothing. She had a colored man that knew how to paint, how to carpenter, how to plaster, how to hang wallpaper. She would go in and decorate them. When I wrote

02:51:46.900 - 02:52:14.000

her and told her I was having such a hard time. She said, "Well, I have a house now. It's been condemned, but you can live in it temporarily." Of course, we didn't have a stick of furniture. It was quite a project. She pulled everything out of her barn that she could find and everything out of her attic, provided I think there was a love seat and

02:52:14.000 - 02:52:43.020

a card table and one chair, and that is about it. My aunt in California decided that we needed a stove, and so she sent one of these. It is like a crock pot, only it was quite large and it had all sorts of ways you could fix it to separate dishes and cook in, because we did not have a regular stove.

02:52:43.280 - 02:52:54.720

had been removed. Did your mom and dad have any idea what living conditions you were living in? No, I don't think they had a clue. And I wasn't about to tell them.

02:52:57.560 - 02:53:09.720

But, you know, being one of five, you weren't going to be the first one to come back home to live. You certainly were not. And I never asked them for anything.

02:53:10.000 - 02:53:23.920

They were always wonderful. But from a big family, you do not ask for things, because you know there are others that have to be provided for as well. They did not know.

02:53:24.540 - 02:53:41.480

But there was a place in the living room wall that you could put your fist through, and one up in the attic also that needed to be repaired. There were squirrels that would jump from the trees and run around up in the attic. They must have had really a great time up there.

02:53:43.350 - 02:54:00.320

The huge living room that was at the front of this house was bare, empty, nothing in it. But we used what had been the dining room and put the little love seat in the one chair. Lou got some orange crates and he painted those black so they would not show up.

02:54:01.500 - 02:54:18.920

Put those on either end and we bought a lamp. We managed, managed very well. What was his assignment at Randolph? He was on the acrobatic team at that time, and he was flying every day.

02:54:18.920 - 02:54:30.580

What were they called? I do not know. The Blue Angels of the Navy, what do they call them now? Thunderbirds.

02:54:31.020 - 02:54:39.200

The Thunderbirds. They had not named them. Did he then go to different bases for air shows? McMillan: Yes.

02:54:39.600 - 02:54:50.360

Uh-huh. What was he flying? I think he was flying AT-6s. I do not think there were many jets out on the market then.

02:54:50.960 - 02:55:07.020

There were jets here that were coming, and of course all those went overseas before the war ended. In fact, there is a man here that tells the most marvelous story about that. First Jets over in Europe.

02:55:08.320 - 02:55:33.540

He had been in Europe since 1942 and he was in there for two years. It must have been awful, the conditions they lived under and the stress every day. He finished his two years and all of the tours that he needed to finish, went back home to Washington, D.C. for two weeks' leave.

02:55:35.360 - 02:55:52.100

And he had been there a week, and the next Monday morning there was a knock on the door and there was a sergeant with orders for him. And he looked at these orders and they were to return to overseas. And he was reported the next day to the Pentagon.

02:55:53.340 - 02:56:06.780

And he went to the Pentagon and they said, "Don't get upset about this," because he said, "I've been over there for two years and here you are into my two weeks leave and I can't believe that you'd do this to me." And they said, "Settle down.

02:56:07.770 - 02:56:34.840

We have jets and we know the Germans have jets and it's demoralizing our pilots to see jets in the air because they cannot compete." He said, "We want you to go over and show them that we have jets too and they are coming." This fellow that had come back overseas with him was a real practical joker. He went to a costume shop and he got the head of a monkey

02:56:35.820 - 02:57:03.020

and a top hat and a cigar. He bought a cigar. I do not think he had to get that at the costume shop. Anyhow, when they would go into a base, they would park way away from the hangars and everything. And the next day, after everybody got up in the air, they knew what the mission was and where they would be. They would go up, and this guy would put on his monkey's

02:57:03.060 - 02:57:24.160

head and get his cigar and his top hat out and come up behind, get on this guy's wing and tip his hat and take the cigar and say goodbye and take off. And the guy went down and of course that night he was telling all the other guys about it. He could not believe it.

02:57:24.660 - 02:57:38.360

A monkey of all things must have been a gorilla. Well, I do not know. I know it was not a man, it was just this animal. And people said, "You have had too much to drink, go home."

02:57:38.360 - 02:57:52.920

I did not believe him. It happened the next day and somebody else—finally about three of them had it happen to them. And they said, "We're not going to talk about it anymore." He said, "They don't believe us and we're not going to convince them."

02:57:52.920 - 02:58:09.100

And about that time they called everybody in and said, "These are our jets and they're on the way. You're going to be flying these things as soon as you get checked out in them." I thought that was the most wonderful story.

02:58:11.290 - 02:58:26.400

Kelly: How long were you stationed at Randolph? McMillan: Of course, I had grandiose ideas when we went to Randolph. I thought we would get quarters. But of course, he was a second lieutenant.

02:58:26.760 - 02:58:45.980

I did not take that into consideration. So we were not about to get quarters, and we had to live in a little town called Saguene, Texas. That was an experience in itself. We had a red-haired landlady that I know was the madam

02:58:46.720 - 02:59:16.120

of a brothel. And the people that had had the cottage before used to feed her beer all morning long. Our budget would not allow for the beer, and I did not like her looks anyhow. I was not very friendly with her, and she was going to get us out of that house one way or another. She would come in and take things. It was a furnished house, but she

02:59:16.160 - 02:59:38.800

had decided she needed this lamp or she needed that rug or whatnot, and that did not sit well. I was very happy when we got orders to leave. How old was your little girl then? She was a toddler, two to three age and a handful.

02:59:39.940 - 03:00:04.900

I happened to come down with hepatitis at that time and I lost about thirty pounds. Weak as water, you could not have any fat at all in your diet. I tell you, I shed a lot of pounds. I was very, very weak, and it was difficult to take care of her because Lou was gone a

03:00:04.900 - 03:00:27.040

lot of the time. Kelly: Right. Then where did you go? McMillan: Oh, let's see. From Randolph. Lou had leave, and it seems to me he did not orders as to where he was next. He was to come back from leave, and we went home on

03:00:27.120 - 03:00:51.660

vacation to see my parents. And they contacted him there, and he was sent to Germany. Kelly: Were you able to go with him when he went? McMillan: No. Housing again. They did not have enough housing for the wives. I had to wait about six months before I went over.

03:00:51.720 - 03:01:15.860

Kelly: Where was he in Germany? McMillan: He was in Munich. We were based—they had taken—I had to wait at least six months before they had housing for me. Kelly: Then how did you get over there?

03:01:16.060 - 03:01:27.620

I went over on— Kelly: They're doing it again. They're not done. McMillan: Okay, this really picks up every little noise.

03:01:28.180 - 03:02:01.480

But living in Germany in wartime, or immediately after the war, was quite an experience. Munich had been eighty percent bombed, and the bitterness on the faces of the German people was very evident. We were warned not to go out at night unless we went in a convoy, several cars full of people, because there were no good feelings, no vibes that were

03:02:01.600 - 03:02:35.460

good going around. We had quite an experience there with houses being broken into. Our program police, our military police, felt there was a pattern here. If they could just get their hands into it, they could solve this problem. Because people would be wiped out, all of their valuables, any cash, whatever. And they found that one woman said, "Yeah, and right

03:02:35.520 - 03:03:02.420

here, this plate was full of cookies." And the man thought children, because there were always children playing on that street. And there was this man that had them out looking to see who was putting suitcases in their car and who was going to be gone for the weekend. And then he would send the children in, and one of them would break a glass, a little

03:03:02.480 - 03:03:30.720

window that would go into the basement. They would put the smallest child there. He would up and let the rest in. They would hide behind the house. Because all of the Germans had watchdogs. They had big German shepherds that were fenced in behind six-foot fences, and they would have a doorbell on the outside of that fence. So nobody came into that fence

03:03:30.840 - 03:03:53.300

with that dog out there. But the Americans did not have dogs over there. Or if they did, they were pets. And they discovered that these children were the ones that were -- and it was the plate of cookies that was gone, in addition to silver and cash. Kelly: How did you get to Germany?

03:03:53.560 - 03:04:09.640

I went over on an Army transport ship. Truck ship? It was -- well, they were taking wives over and maybe bringing troops back. How was that trip?

03:04:10.680 - 03:04:31.360

Long. I was very, very happy that my husband was an officer, and I was bunked in with a woman whose husband was a major. I mean, he was really on high cotton, but the fact that Lou was an officer, I did share

03:04:31.660 - 03:04:50.740

a room or a cabin with someone else. And of course, the higher the rank, they would get a cabin to themselves. Kelly: What was Lou's assignment in Germany? He was in fighter airplanes.

03:04:51.800 - 03:05:12.500

I think it was the P-51 was one of the first ones. He was thrilled to death to be in the larger airplanes and flying. But they did not have jets at that base, as I recall. But it was a foothold for them.

03:05:12.650 - 03:05:31.740

Kelly: How long were you stationed there? He was returned to the United States maybe six months after I got there, not very long. I had the best time because unfortunately for the Germans, there were a lot of them that were hungry.

03:05:31.850 - 03:05:49.260

They were thrown out of work. Everything was in turmoil. They were trying to clean up the streets and whatnot, and the antique shops and the used used stores with used furniture and whatnot were bulging with things to sell at very,

03:05:49.540 - 03:06:05.320

very reasonable prices. I bought a couple of oil paintings. These artists would come to your door and beg you to buy for practically—all they wanted was to get a little bit more than they put into the canvas.

03:06:07.860 - 03:06:30.720

We brought back some very beautiful silver pieces and some gorgeous linen double damask napkins that were not seventeen inches, they were thirty inches square. And my daughter is using those now. Each one beautifully embroidered with initials at the corner and the date that it was made.

03:06:31.860 - 03:06:48.200

That must have been for a very large household that wanted to rotate their linens so that they were evenly used. But there were beautiful things that we got there. Kelly: How long was Lew in the Air Force?

03:06:48.730 - 03:06:57.900

McMillan: Thirty-four and a half years. Kelly: Of all his stations, what was your favorite? McMillan: Madrid. I loved being in Madrid.

03:06:58.860 - 03:07:24.520

We had a station allowance there, and we were expected to have domestic help. We found an apartment that was brand new, and it had the servants' quarters and bath, and was well-equipped. We found that the contractors over there did not see the need for putting in much in the

03:07:24.520 - 03:07:46.680

way of power to the house. We had not been there very long when we realized that if you push the toaster down in the morning, that flips the switch for the hot water heater. If you went to take a bath without adjusting that fuse, putting in a new fuse, then there

03:07:46.700 - 03:07:58.580

was nothing but cold water. Everything was so different. I had had a smattering. I had had two years of Spanish and I knew when we went over to take my books with me

03:07:59.060 - 03:08:21.140

and I decided the thing to do was to go to Berlitz and have some lessons to beef me up. I would go to the movies and watch the same movie over and over. Your ears begin to pick up what the meaning of this word is and that word. We were in Madrid for four years and I did not want to come home.

03:08:21.380 - 03:08:45.700

I got to the point that I could tell a joke in Spanish and I thought, "I've arrived." Because to me it was a challenge. And people that came over after us lived on the base outside of Madrid. And they didn't get any of that Spanish culture that we got living right in Madrid, where

03:08:45.620 - 03:09:05.320

There is a man that has so many blocks he is responsible for, and he walks the streets every night and he has a big huge stick. Anybody that would come near him would get whacked. He would bang it on the corner so that you would know he was in the neighborhood.

03:09:05.560 - 03:09:25.680

He wanted everybody to know he was there. Then at the end of the month he would come by for his propina, his little tip. There was all kinds of ways for them to make money. We discovered one way was if you ordered milk, they would pick up the empty bottles and put

03:09:25.780 - 03:09:42.460

some of the fresh milk into that and then add some water from the hydrant, which was not potable. I saw them do it and I said, "Lou, we have got to stop getting milk. We will all end up with some horrible disease."

03:09:42.460 - 03:10:06.220

Right. When you were an Air Force wife, did you do the typical Air Force wife things? Oh, yes. Yes, I had to get involved with that. I felt it was important for Lou to do that. So I was always on the board or posing on the board. Play bridge?

03:10:06.340 - 03:10:26.120

Yes, I played bridge at that time. The one I liked most was being hostess and greeting the new girls and going by to see them and cluing them in on the ins and outs of the base and whatnot. I thoroughly enjoyed that.

03:10:27.940 - 03:11:06.100

During your children's growing up time, did you become involved with their activities? somewhat, but not to any great extent. When I look back on it, I was not a very good mother. I don't feel that I was. I never neglected Pat, but I had had just enough time before she came and after I finished college, that I treasured my time. I look back on it and

03:11:06.140 - 03:11:33.080

I think I should have spent more time with her. But when she was thirteen, I was ready to give her away. I could not stand her. She could not stand me. I thought I would never lived through that messy room/bedroom time. I can't imagine how I went through it until finally I just gave up and I thought, "If she's going to live like Pack Rat, I'll just

03:11:33.240 - 03:12:00.520

let her live like that." I hope she never hears this. Was she able to visit her grandparents as she was growing up? Well, I thought she needed to go back and see how her grandmother lived. And when she finished high school, I sent her back to Wytheville.

03:12:03.040 - 03:12:20.920

And her grandmother was so happy to have her, because of course she was lonesome. Dad had gone by then. And she invited a cousin of Pat's, my sister's oldest child, six months apart. They were only six months apart.

03:12:21.400 - 03:12:48.540

And she took them on trips, and she took them to Williamsburg, and she took them up the Shenandoah Valley, and she took them to Chimney Rock, and all of those wonderful places around that area that made it so much more fun for her that she wouldn't do by herself. And to see her grandchildren, it seemed to be that she was just delighted to have Pat.

03:12:49.280 - 03:13:07.980

And I think it did Pat a lot of good to see her roots, so to speak. But I keep saying, if I'd have known then what I know now, I would have spent a lot more time devoted strictly to her. Was she able to get to know her grandfather, your dad?

03:13:09.240 - 03:13:26.800

No, not really. She was about eight. We had spent several Christmases there, and she knew him a little bit. But she was eight when he died. And what was a Christmas like at your parents' home?

03:13:27.420 - 03:13:49.240

Oh, it was bedlam, when you're used to having just one child to have. Because Mother and Daddy ended up having seventeen grandchildren. Most of those came after my father had passed away. But Mother wanted all of her grandchildren to know each other, and we were all spread

03:13:49.300 - 03:13:56.440

out. That is one thing that the war did for us. Families went in different directions. You went where you could get your job.

03:13:59.240 - 03:14:25.920

My oldest brother lived in North Carolina, not too far from Whitfield. My sister's husband was in the Navy, and he had a tour in Germany and a tour in England and a tour in Japan. So they did not participate as much until Uncle Bill came back from Japan.

03:14:27.240 - 03:14:46.500

But we had quite a lot of excitement in the house at Christmas time with a lot of little children and that's really what makes Christmas is the children and seeing how excited they get and how much fun they have. So your dad was able to see some of that.

03:14:46.560 - 03:15:07.180

He got to see some of it. He got to see some of it. Where did Lou, where were you when he retired? We were in Colorado Springs, Colorado, and we had bought our first house there. I had

03:15:07.260 - 03:15:36.720

wanted a house so bad. And Lou said, "We never know when we're going to be moved." Early on, they would move you anytime they wanted to. But it seems to me it was early in the the '50s that they came out with a ruling that you had to be there one year, at least a year. But you cannot buy a house and sell it and make any money or maybe even not get

03:15:36.760 - 03:15:55.080

your money back after one year. And it was still not really settled down that it was going to be a four-year tour, which came on later. Kelly: What was his assignment at Colorado Springs? He was interfacing with the Canadians.

03:15:56.280 - 03:16:10.940

And of course, that's where the mountain is, where they have all this fabulous equipment in the mountain. And he coordinated with the Canadians. We had a lot of Canadian friends there.

03:16:12.210 - 03:16:33.120

Let me go back and ask you, how long he was in the show group of pilots? I think only a year. How did you feel when you – were you afraid when he was – Oh, no. I was not afraid. I was hanging up diapers and looking up there and thinking,

03:16:33.280 - 03:16:58.100

"Oh, what I gave up." But I did not give it up. They gave me up. But Pat came eleven months after we were married. That kept me pretty busy. Kelly: When he retired in Colorado Springs and you had bought the house, then did you stay there?

03:16:58.740 - 03:17:32.580

McMillan: Well, he had a four-year tour there. Then he was offered the position of being commanding officer of Aviano, Italy. My aunt, who has been so good to me, was in a nursing home there. I said, "Lou, I can't leave her." He said, "Well, I'm not going to go without you." He was a full colonel at that time. They said, "Well, we understand. What would

03:17:32.580 - 03:18:10.500

you like to do?" He said, "Well, someplace close by." So they assigned him to Denver. He went to Denver. I talked to my aunt's doctor, and I said, "We're going to move to Denver, and I'd like to move her too." He said, "Don't do that. She is confused enough now, and it would throw her back. She wouldn't really understand why. He said,

03:18:10.560 - 03:18:34.840

"I think you'd be best off leaving her here." We decided I would move up to Denver, and a couple of times a week I'd make a trip down. I tried to explain to her that Lou had been moved away, and I felt my place was with my husband, but I would come and see her. She accepted that. I always tried to take

03:18:34.840 - 03:19:08.620

a little something with me. We would give parties. We would plan for parties for all the residents on her wing. I remember at Christmas time, I was buying little gifts and wrapping them up, and we had a little wagon full of gifts for everybody with their name on it, and balloons all over the place. And of course, the nursing home had a tree. And she was there

03:19:08.900 - 03:19:35.300

for eight years in that nursing home. Kelly: Wow. And then after you left Denver— He asked to come back to Colorado Springs, so we came back to the house, which was wonderful. We had that house for at least ten years because we stayed there for a while before he said,

03:19:35.460 - 03:20:02.020

"You know, we need to be closer to family, and we should rent the house and go back east And my mother got all excited. She wanted us to settle in Withville. And she was a very determined person. And she said, "I've even picked out the house that you're to buy."

03:20:04.020 - 03:20:15.480

And I said, "Oh, no, Mom." I said, "You remember when Dad bought the big house here?" I said, "You didn't have a whole lot to say about it." And I said, "I don't have a whole lot to say about it.

03:20:15.740 - 03:20:43.540

Lew has done the work for thirty-four and a half years and he is going to call the shots because he has a family too. So we did not buy in with Bill. Kelly: Once he got out of the service, then did he work after that? Did he get a job? What did he do?

03:20:43.540 - 03:21:08.940

His job was playing golf. He loved golf, and he was very good at it. We settled in Tampa -- not Tampa, in St. Petersburg, or just north of there. We were on the outskirts of St. Petersburg. Why did you decide -- why did he decide to come to Florida, since the relatives were

03:21:08.980 - 03:21:22.400

all -- Well, we did not want to be too close to any of them. We thought we would be better friends if we were not right on top of anybody. Kelly: In the meantime, your daughter, had she married?

03:21:22.640 - 03:21:41.100

McMillan: Pat had graduated. She got married before she graduated. She had another semester to do, and after she got married, she went back to school. husband was stationed in Colorado Springs, and she went back to school and got her degree.

03:21:42.860 - 03:22:21.100

That marriage did not work out. They had two children, my two grandsons, Thurman's instead of Mackie's. That wound up and she decided that she could not work on the income that was coming in, she would have to go to work. She took a job with Norwegian Cruise Lines. They had a six-weeks course, no pay. If you want the job, you take the course, and then

03:22:21.100 - 03:22:58.340

we will decide whether we want you or not. She took that course, and they wanted her part-time. She decided that she could manage that way, but she really wanted a full-time job. She lived in Coral Springs over here at the time. The job was in Miami, and so they had a carpool that went back and forth. And there happened to be a director of the

03:22:58.340 - 03:23:35.460

company that was in the carpool, and his marriage had broken up. And sparks began to fly. And Lou and I came down from St. Petersburg, and Pat and this friend of hers had arranged for us to go on a cruise. It was a wonderful cruise. We had lovely accommodations. He was a smart guy. He would come to see Pat and bring me flowers. Wasn't that sneaky?

03:23:38.540 - 03:23:57.960

But I think Lou was that way too, because he said, "You know," some people said they could never get in to see the General, but he said, "A box of candy at Christmas time and remembering their name in the meantime and spending a little time with the secretaries, I never had any trouble. Think in the head.

03:24:00.320 - 03:24:29.720

Kelly: How did you end up where you are now? We were living at Baltimore Country Club north of St. Petersburg there, and we decided that the yard was getting to be a burden. We wanted to move into a condo or an apartment or something else.

03:24:30.460 - 03:24:51.880

We bought a condo in Clearwater, which was just eight miles away. We could still keep in touch with our friends and go to the same church and whatnot. We bought the condo, and it was made for us. It was just a beautiful condo with a wraparound balcony.

03:24:53.140 - 03:25:15.340

It was a lot of glass windows and looking out on greenery. I loved that place. But Lou developed heart problems. He went in for an angiogram, and they told him that he was okay for now, but he had a

03:25:15.360 - 03:25:40.720

heart valve they did not like the looks of. he should be very careful with his diet and take care of himself. That worked fine until Lou said, "You know, Mary, I think we ought to be closer to Pat. If anything would happen that one of us would get sick, she would be running up and down that highway to come up

03:25:40.720 - 03:26:02.020

to Clearwater from Coral Springs." He said, "That would not be a good idea at all." I wanted to stay there. I had moved so many times in my life. But when he said, "I think we had better get closer to Pat," those were the magic words because we were not seeing enough of her.

03:26:04.920 - 03:26:35.160

So we moved down to Carl Springs, and he bought this gorgeous house, fifteen-foot ceilings. It was so spacious. It was three bedrooms and three baths. It was just a lovely house. It was what they call "zero light lines," so that you did not have the outside to take care of. That was done by a residence committee that hired a landscaping company to do. It

03:26:35.200 - 03:26:51.380

It seemed to just fit us perfectly. He had his car and I had my car. One morning he said, "Mary, I need to get my car in. Would you follow me over to the Cadillac place and let me come home?

03:26:51.420 - 03:27:16.580

I have some work I need to do instead of sitting around up there." I said, "Sure." I started cleaning up after breakfast dishes and he went for a walk. next thing I know, I think he should be home by now." And I got a telephone call. I got

03:27:16.680 - 03:27:41.100

this telephone call and the man said, "You don't know me, but please listen. Your husband fell on the street and he can't get up." And he said, "We have called for an ambulance and I'll tell you where we are." And it was really just around the corner, but I got in the car and went over there, and they were putting Lou in the ambulance, and the police

03:27:41.220 - 03:28:04.640

were there. And the police said, "Do you know where the hospital is?" And I said, "No." They said, "Follow us." And they put their signal on, and I followed the ambulance. They found that there had been a great deal of deterioration in his heart. They kept him for a while and gave him angiograms and whatnot.

03:28:04.900 - 03:28:24.980

They said, "We think we can handle this with medication." They did for quite a while, but things were going downhill. He said, "Mary, I think we'd better get into a life care place." want to go, I don't want to do that." He said, "You won't have to cook." I said,

03:28:25.060 - 03:28:46.080

"Oh, great, let's go." Because they have two plans here. You can have breakfast and dinner at the common dining room, or you can have just dinner at night. They have not only the formal dining room, they have a cafe if people don't feel that they want to dress.

03:28:46.260 - 03:29:11.800

And a third alternative is you can make out a menu and take it down and get it in before two o'clock, except on Sundays, that is a little different. And then your dinner will be put in a bag in a special place and you can go down, pick it up, and come back home and have dinner at home.

03:29:12.660 - 03:29:30.380

And so we went to the dining room most nights because it was really very nice and you get to mix and know the people around you. In fact, you get to know people much better than you knew your next-door neighbor who lived there for five years with you because you see each other so often.

03:29:31.300 - 03:29:52.520

And he liked going into that dining room and so did I. But things went downhill, and in November they said he needs to go in for another angiogram or angioplasty. I got them mixed up.

03:29:54.800 - 03:30:17.180

They didn't want to let him go from the hospital, and they said, "We're going to schedule for a double bypass and a valve replacement." But they could not do it at this hospital. So they sent him to Northridge, which is down in Fort Lauderdale.

03:30:18.580 - 03:30:38.000

The night before he was to be operated on, they gave him a breathing test and he did not pass it, so the surgeon would not do the operation. I was in there in his room with him when the surgeon came in and looked at him and said, You took the test and you flunked.

03:30:42.120 - 03:31:04.680

I think his doctors here were determined to have that operation. I found things since that time that he knew his risk was very high, but he wanted the operation because it was a matter of going downhill over a matter of seven months, and And then that would be the end.

03:31:05.180 - 03:31:22.740

Or maybe if this operation worked, he would have a better quality of life for who knows how long. So they made arrangements with a Dr. Williams at the Mount Sinai Hospital down on Miami Beach.

03:31:23.680 - 03:31:46.380

And he was transferred down there after five days in our own medical at Edgewater, which He was fine. He wanted to go ahead with this operation. Went through the operation, did it very well.

03:31:47.280 - 03:31:52.240

I was so pleased. It was over with. It was a success. They had done everything they had to do.

03:31:52.480 - 03:32:13.320

It wasn't a double bypass; they had done a triple bypass. It was a real shocker to me after about five days in intensive care at the heart specialty wing. They transferred him to the lung intensive care.

03:32:14.700 - 03:32:34.220

One morning we came in and they said, "He's had a bad night. We don't think he's not going to make it." That's hard. How do you spend your time now, Mary? Do you volunteer or do you play tennis anymore?

03:32:35.260 - 03:33:03.560

No more tennis. No, I had a racket that always had a hole in it. I was never a good tennis player. I have really gotten down to reading. I enjoy reading very much if I have the time. But right now I'm swimming through reams of paper. And I'll tell you, I know very well on every date on that calendar that I'm supposed to

03:33:03.640 - 03:33:22.500

get IRS taken care of. It's marked in red ink. Every time a piece of paper comes in, I have a special folder I put it in, and I'm going to get that all categorized and alphabetized so that it won't be such a horrible thing

03:33:22.600 - 03:33:32.920

with leaving things out and not knowing where they are. Kelly: Tell me about your grandchildren. Steele: Oh, they're wonderful. Can you believe it?

03:33:34.600 - 03:33:41.460

One is twenty-eight and the other is thirty-two. Kelly: Wow. Steele: Yeah, they're grown men. They're not children anymore.

03:33:41.880 - 03:34:00.520

And I think back when I used to hold them in my arms and when I let them sit on my lap. We took vacations together up at Pipe Stem. I do not know whether you are familiar with Pipe Stem. It is in West Virginia, and I guess West Virginia needed an economic shot in the arm, and the

03:34:00.620 - 03:34:15.440

federal government came in and built this absolutely fabulous park. They have a hotel there. They have cottages there. They have an Olympic-sized pool, they have golf, they have fishing, they have everything

03:34:15.540 - 03:34:28.680

you can imagine at Pipestem and it's very reasonable. And so we would say, "Come on, you all coordinate your vacations so you can take it at the same time and we'll all go to Pipestem." And we did that for years and years and years.

03:34:29.060 - 03:34:43.940

And I would go up the mountain and one of them would be on my lap and I'd think, "Oh, I'll sit on their lap now." Do you have great-grandchildren? No great-grand. Well, one son did adopt a child.

03:34:44.260 - 03:34:56.840

Yeah. That little boy is in the fourth grade now, and he lives with his mother here. What makes you happy now?

03:34:57.580 - 03:35:07.340

Being with family. Family means everything, doesn't it? Friends. Friends come next on the list, and I have a ton of friends here.

03:35:07.880 - 03:35:22.360

And we're all in the same boat. Tell me about your association with the WASP organization. Have you been involved? I regret to say that I've never been involved.

03:35:22.360 - 03:35:50.400

I never opened my mouth until we got to Tucson. And I just couldn't see them turning this thing over to the university completely without knowing exactly what we're going to get and what we're going to have. And I really didn't think that her report gave the answers to those kind of questions

03:35:51.000 - 03:36:18.280

that everybody wanted. They wanted to know what happens. And she hadn't looked into the legal aspect of it at all. I hate to say it, but I felt that we needed to get a little more information. Kelly: Throughout your life, you have had some sad times.

03:36:18.740 - 03:36:38.360

What has gotten you through those sad times? the church and faith. Of all the things that you have done in your life, what is the one thing outside of your daughter,

03:36:38.940 - 03:36:49.080

the one thing that you are most proud of? Being a Wasp. I mean, there were only a thousand, seventy-four of us that got those wings.

03:36:50.200 - 03:37:14.200

And we went through a lot to get them. And it was fun, but it was also stressful. The stress was something that—I don't know, it was really bad because you wanted to succeed so bad, and yet you were never encouraged once you got there.

03:37:15.880 - 03:37:30.400

Did an instructor ever tell you that you had a great ride? Did he ever tell you that you had a horrible ride? No. You were kept completely in the dark as to where you stood, and I think that made it

03:37:30.440 - 03:37:49.580

even harder, don't you? Kelly: What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? McMillan: I think it has already happened. I think that the women pilots that are now with airlines look upon us as being absolutely

03:37:49.840 - 03:38:03.580

the pioneers. We were the snow shovel that came through and cleared the way for them. I think that was a great thing to do. Kelly: Right.

03:38:04.540 - 03:38:23.700

Tell me, what is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? I think she was a wow of a girl. I think she had everything. She had aggression, she was feminine, she was sexy and used it, I'm sure.

03:38:26.100 - 03:38:38.580

She had no fear, absolutely no fear. It didn't bother her. I don't think it bothered her a bit to go into an airplane, a jet, and fly that darn thing.

03:38:38.960 - 03:39:03.880

And she knew that there were—I think you probably heard her tell about going up in an airplane and the little crank that worked the hydraulics for you would be missing. And she said she just found one that she would keep in her pocket, because there were so many men in there that they didn't want any more competition than they already had.

03:39:04.840 - 03:39:31.720

And they were feeling it. Mary, when children watch this in future generations, perhaps your great-grandchildren, what would you say to them that might encourage them or inspire or motivate them? Well, I think you have to have a connection with the church and with God.

03:39:33.480 - 03:39:49.660

I think that when you feel that that strength is behind you, you can do anything. I have one grandson who got, I think, about 18 months into college and decided this was a lot of garbage. He didn't need this.

03:39:50.680 - 03:40:18.700

He decided he was going to go into the Marines. did. They took a couch potato and they made a man out of him. He came back. Everybody was so pleased and so proud of him, and he was proud of himself. He is now in college finishing up. His older brother had been the one that was the student, the bright guy,

03:40:18.940 - 03:40:48.920

the one that got the terrific grades. He went to high school and he majored in sports and girls. His background for college was not that great because he just felt that, "Okay, I'm not very good at studying. My brother's that. That's him. I'm going to be in sports." He has wonderful coordination and he's a terrific soccer player. He played all over this country

03:40:48.920 - 03:41:23.560

South America with teams that he was with. He played with teams all over the world when he was with the Marines. He still plays occasionally. But he has cut out for himself. His goal is to get a degree in engineering. With this poor scholastic background behind him, it a little harder than if he had paid attention. I think that besides having that connection

03:41:24.500 - 03:41:48.360

through your faith with God, you have got to know that you have to dig in yourself. He is digging in now and he is doing well. We are very, very proud of him. Kelly: You should be. I am very proud of you. I am so glad you were a WASP. I am too. I'm just, I'm very proud in fact that I was a WASP.

03:41:48.660 - 03:42:17.280

Right. Can I tell you this has been absolutely a joy and that I believe the things that you have said on this video, children will be motivated, they will be inspired. I can't tell you how much this will mean to them, but for all those children, I thank you. I hope that they are, that they get on the right track, and that they have a loving home

03:42:17.820 - 03:42:28.020

when they come in the world. Nancy, do you have any questions? I was going to ask you who that primary instructor was that you liked so much. Oh, Button.

03:42:28.840 - 03:42:40.300

They called him Button. What was his last name? He died of cancer. He was at the Charleston reunion with his wife.

03:42:42.140 - 03:42:51.280

What was his last name? It's escaping me. It's getting away from me now. But it was a funny thing.

03:42:52.360 - 03:43:08.540

The one picture that was taken of me when I was in the WASP was in primary, and the four students were on the airplane. He had his hand up on the strut, but in the picture it looked like his hand was on my shoulder.

03:43:09.640 - 03:43:32.460

He had sent a copy of this picture to his wife and he says, "I had my hand around the strut." He wanted his wife to know that he was not touching a girl. Is there anything that I have left out of your life, any story or any event that you

03:43:32.460 - 03:43:49.060

would like to share? There was one event, and I cannot remember just when it was, except that I must have been in advance. I was going into Waco, home country for you.

03:43:50.560 - 03:44:22.520

I picked up the radio and radioed in and identified myself and asked for requests to land. I got no response. By this time, I had to go around, because I had started at the end of the base leg and that was over. So I went around again and repeated it. Do you remember we were told that they would give you a green light. I looked for that green light. There was never

03:44:22.680 - 03:44:46.280

a green light or a red light or anything. I went around four times and I was getting out of gas and I thought, "Damn, I'll go in." So I went in and I hadn't turned off the engine when I was swamped with these people and they said, "Your radio is out." I said, "Well, I figured something was wrong because I wasn't getting any response, but

03:44:46.380 - 03:45:04.680

what happened to the green light?" And they said, "Well, we're not in the tower, so we don't know." But I remember telling a minister, "You know, you joke about these people that go to sleep during your sermon."

03:45:04.680 - 03:45:28.580

And I said, "The whole point is you've not only got to have a transmitter, you've got have a receiver. And it's not your fault. It's up to the person that comes to church to stay awake." And he laughed and he said, "Yeah, you're right." I said, "It takes two to tango."

03:45:28.580 - 03:45:49.820

Kelly: That's right. That's right. I know I wanted to go back and ask you, when you were talking about having those cokes, do you remember where you got those cokes? There was a Coke machine down in the hangar. I guess the mechanics, instructors, everybody could use them. They were probably making a mint.

03:45:50.370 - 03:46:11.040

Do you remember a canteen? I think they had a canteen not too far from the dining room. It was probably adjacent to the dining room. There was a little room where you could sit down and whatnot, and Then there was a little canteen and one of my roommates, Trix Nelson, a wonderful girl,

03:46:11.200 - 03:46:29.040

she's our class secretary and has been from the beginning. She loved her coffee and I'd get a candy bar and buy a candy bar for her because that was just icing on the cake with that cup of coffee for her. That was a routine.

03:46:29.080 - 03:46:56.540

And Trix and I got along beautifully together and have kept in contact, of course, her being a secretary more than the other girls. But I keep in touch with Mert and also Peggy Nisball unfortunately died early of alcoholism. That was a shocker to me.

03:46:57.740 - 03:47:19.380

But she could not have any children, and they adopted two boys. And once she got those boys raised, I guess she thought there was not anything else to do. Being in the WASP was a wonderful experience, and somebody who did not go through it really

03:47:19.380 - 03:47:38.180

doesn't have a clue as to what it was and what we did. It was a high point in my life, a very high point. Kelly: And it's so great now being able to interact with other WASPs. McMillan: Oh, yes. You get to see everybody.

03:47:38.220 - 03:47:48.040

Kelly: Ask her if she'll go for office. McMillan: Right. Well, now, after you leave Boca Raton, where are you scheduled? Kelly: Well, we have two more days. I want to say thank you.

03:47:48.740 - 03:47:57.720

Oh for goodness sakes. I want to thank you. I've been scribbling since you've been, because every time you say something interesting, I write it. Well, I've been writing the whole time.

03:47:58.600 - 03:48:06.820

[Laughter] I'm amazed. Did you ever get a pair of cowboy boots from the folks that own the bookstore? Never bought any cowboy boots. I have very strange feet.

03:48:07.360 - 03:48:21.520

I have a quadruple A, and fewer and fewer people are making those. Did you ever have a steak in Sweetwater? I think I did because a steak, that was the pinnacle. I mean.

03:48:22.480 - 03:48:35.160

Yeah. You know. Maybe that fell off the edges of the plate. I'm amazed at the way you can adjust because you came from having everything to having

03:48:36.300 - 03:48:41.160

almost nothing. Well, a hot plate. Yeah. And living, you know, in such diverse places.

03:48:41.320 - 03:48:53.120

I know, but when you're in love you don't think about those things. Yeah. Well, I think there are some people though that can't adjust and be happy. Well, of course I'd had to adjust all of my life.

03:48:53.680 - 03:49:04.300

And I'd made up my mind that I was never going to marry into the service. I was going to marry a man that owned a filling station at the corner and he would come home for lunch. And it didn't happen.

03:49:04.620 - 03:49:26.700

Yeah, but to have gone from, to get through training with all those other girls, that's That is the biggest amazing thing to me. Well, it was stressful, but it is one of those things that you do and you would do it all over again anytime if you could.

03:49:27.720 - 03:49:47.400

You think now, "Couldn't I teach something? Couldn't I beef up and teach engines or teach something?" But I'm afraid they don't want 80-year-olds. We've been put out to pasture.