00:00:00.940 - 00:00:13.800

with every different colors that you have on. White's about the hardest to get the lights right. But you'll get it. You're ready?

00:00:14.710 - 00:00:29.000

Mm-hmm. Okay. Tell me when they're off. I've got something under my jeans.

00:00:32.680 - 00:01:04.080

Tell me. We are rolling. Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Frankie Park. She was a WASP, class 44 W10. We are in her home in Mesa, Arizona. Today is the 7th of November 2001. Okay, Frankie, if you'll give us your full name and when and where you were born. Frankie Meisner Park. And what do you want to know next?

00:01:04.140 - 00:01:18.280

I want to know where you were born and when. Piper, Kansas, which was west of Kansas City, Kansas, and now it's part of Kansas City, Kansas. Oh. And so Piper doesn't exist anymore.

00:01:18.880 - 00:01:41.820

Okay. Do you want to tell us when you were born? July 25, 1919. Okay. Frankie, tell me about your mom and dad. Well, they're country people and Piper is the crossroad with a general store and a post

00:01:41.880 - 00:01:53.960

office and that's all it was. And I'm an only child. Okay. Where did you live? In the crossroad. In the crossroad. Did you live on a farm?

00:01:54.460 - 00:02:01.120

Yes. Okay. And your dad farmed it by himself or did he have help? Yes.

00:02:01.220 - 00:02:19.220

Okay. What do you remember as a child about that farm? Well, of course, we moved away from there, so our people moved much. They were rolling stones and didn't gather any moss.

00:02:21.260 - 00:02:50.500

So where did they move and how old were you when they moved? Well, it's difficult to answer questions like that because when you're roaming, I'd have to write it because it's difficult to tell it. I have to tell you first, I have to explain this first because people will wonder what's

00:02:50.460 - 00:03:30.340

going on. I lost my speech ten years ago and I lost it entirely and I have recovered about 90% left and more. And so the thinking goes ahead and the speech goes behind so I have to talk slow and you have to listen slow. So that's what's what's going on. So thinking is very difficult because thinking isn't fluid when you're lost.

00:03:30.620 - 00:04:03.700

It's like a child learning all over again. And like a two-year-old, you can see those wheels rolling, but they don't know what they want to say. So I'm having the same trouble. So, my, as I wrote in your resume here, that my father was a lazy farmer and a happy gambler and bootlegger.

00:04:06.620 - 00:04:34.220

And my mother was an ambitious millinery and very artistic. So it was a mismatch of the lifetime. And so therefore, she wasn't made for farm work, but he didn't attend to the fields, so she did.

00:04:35.140 - 00:05:09.260

So it was very difficult for them. So her parents, my maternal grandparents, helped us much. And the first memory—well, I remember first grade in the country, and then in the second grade, my mother left my father and we went to Kansas City, Kansas and she

00:05:10.020 - 00:05:45.040

became a milliner and I attended second grade in Kansas City, Kansas and then in third grade there too. And then she and I went to Chicago and she was a millinery there. I attended fourth grade in Chicago and then in fifth grade in Los Angeles.

00:05:46.160 - 00:06:25.160

And that was the 1929 crash. And when she got to Los Angeles, she found out nobody wore hats. So she didn't have any money, and she had a nervous breakdown, and the crash happened. So she became ill and I was taken by train to my grandparents back to Kansas City, Kansas.

00:06:26.680 - 00:06:46.340

I lived with my grandparents from there on. And that was from fifth grade? From fifth grade through 1937 through high school. Frankie, when you were living with your grandparents, what was a Christmas like for you?

00:06:47.300 - 00:07:06.380

Christmas? Uh-huh. Well, we observed Christmas like the traditional way, and so being an only child, even though we were as poor as anyone in the Depression.

00:07:07.060 - 00:07:46.260

I was rich because I got all the presents, and I got all the change in my pocket, and I even, I would have five dollars in my purse at one time, which was like much, much money. Do you recall up until fifth grade any of your early teachers that you might have admired? Steele Yes, there was one who, let's see, I've forgotten whether it was Chicago or Los

00:07:46.260 - 00:08:14.240

Angeles, but one of them, we had a poor math teacher in third grade, and the next teacher had to teach both third and fourth grade math. So she saved the math. Otherwise, I always had trouble with math, most girls did.

00:08:17.200 - 00:08:50.760

It was hard to remember any teachers because we moved so often. After you came back and started sixth grade, were you in a junior high school at that point? No, there wasn't a junior high school. I graduated eighth grade in a one-room house and then went straight to freshman high school

00:08:50.810 - 00:09:19.980

in the country. The town was about thirty miles south of Kansas City. There were six hundred and something, the town, Spring Hill, Kansas. The high school only had a hundred and ten in the school.

00:09:20.880 - 00:09:40.280

My class and senior were twenty-two in that class, which was a big class then. What did your grandfather do to support that family? He was a farmer. Do you remember having chores that you did on the farm?

00:09:42.960 - 00:10:05.720

My grandparents, my grandmother had lost most of her eyesight. They were both energetic. Three syllables give me a problem. It's funny, I don't know why.

00:10:06.660 - 00:10:37.920

At any rate, excuse me, I have a frog. I asked you about doing chores. My grandmother was a perfect cook and housekeeper. My grandfather was a prize-winning farmer and he didn't have the patience to teach

00:10:37.920 - 00:11:02.780

me, so nobody taught me anything. I just waited for time to pass. The only thing I did in school was, when I was four years old, before school, I got, Because of the collapsed vertebrae, I get breathless.

00:11:04.060 - 00:11:28.020

So besides having to talk slow, I have to breathe slow. You are doing great. So at any rate, when I was four years old, my mother was an operatic singer and whistler. You know, that's unusual.

00:11:29.840 - 00:11:54.160

And she would recite poems to herself for her own amusement. And she would recite Hiawatha. And hearing her recite it, they didn't teach me the poem, but I heard her and I mimicked it.

00:11:54.160 - 00:12:13.500

it. And because I did that, everybody was so excited that they had me speak it in a little country church. And from there on, all through school, grade school and high school, I was always in the

00:12:13.780 - 00:12:21.980

plays. And that was my only life. life. Okay.

00:12:21.980 - 00:12:31.360

Were you in other plays? Everything. That was my only activity. Would you play the heroine in the play?

00:12:31.640 - 00:13:04.520

Usually I was the lead character. Not the ingenue, but they would pick the play for me and I would be the lead character. Does one particular play stand out in your mind? Well, just the senior play, I guess, was because I was the aunt and the family members in the

00:13:04.520 - 00:13:30.500

play had lots of difficulties and I was a dominating aunt and so on. But at any rate, it was an exciting play and it was so good they wanted us to do it over again but the principal said, "Well, it wouldn't be as good the second time." Were there any cute boys in those plays?

00:13:30.760 - 00:13:47.160

Is that why you were in those plays? No, I wasn't allowed to date. My grandparents didn't allow me to date because, oh, they couldn't teach me. They couldn't be responsible for me dating.

00:13:49.100 - 00:14:07.860

They felt that they were too old to teach or to wait up for me for dates. So what did your social activities consist of, Frankie? Were you into church group things? We never went to church.

00:14:09.180 - 00:14:27.340

Never went to church. So there really was no, and out in the country I wasn't, didn't have a social circle, just school, in school. So school was a vacuum.

00:14:28.560 - 00:14:42.160

How far did you live from the school? Two miles. I walked, I rode a bicycle, I rode a horse. Who taught you to ride a horse?

00:14:42.820 - 00:15:00.980

Well you just do that when you are in the country. And I had one summer when I was eight years old I had a Shetland pony. Would other children ride horses and did you have some place to hitch that horse when you got there to school?

00:15:01.060 - 00:15:27.900

No, you just, oh yeah, you hitched in the yard. In high school, what was your ambition? To graduate and escape the country and go to the city so I could do something. As you were growing up and on into high school, who were your role models?

00:15:30.780 - 00:15:57.420

EDWARDS: There really weren't any, because I didn't have -- I have difficulty thinking adjectives that I want. For instance, I just waited to grow up. Okay. In your high school, what kind of student were you?

00:15:58.520 - 00:16:25.240

Well, between, it ranged between A- to C+, depending on what was going on. Okay. Did you have any musical talents in high school? I wasn't given any. Okay. Do you recall, you wouldn't have gone to a senior prom, right?

00:16:25.640 - 00:17:01.360

I did get to do that. I got to go to the junior and senior proms. And there was a boy who moved from the city to the country who started living with his grandparents. So in the country in those days at least, kids paired off in grade school. So if you didn't, were paired off with boy girls, then you were alone.

00:17:01.980 - 00:17:21.820

Well he came that senior year and he wasn't paired off and I wasn't paired off, so we got to date each other. Do you recall what you wore? You know I don't.

00:17:22.400 - 00:17:34.480

Okay. Then tell me about your high school graduation. There were what, 22 of you? And oddly enough there were 11 girls and 11 boys.

00:17:37.580 - 00:17:47.600

So we had a traditional graduation. Did you have caps and gowns? Wow, that's impressive. Yes, it was.

00:17:49.060 - 00:18:13.540

And did you know before you graduated what you were going to do then? Well, you see, there weren't that many choices. In those days, girls had, there were, well, let's see, they could go to the city and become a maid, a live-in maid.

00:18:14.440 - 00:18:32.620

They could teach, they could become a nurse or an office, typing and shorthand. And a beauty operator. So there were five choices. (Laughter)

00:18:32.620 - 00:18:58.960

And Frankie, why do you think that was that way? Well just the way it was because girls grew up and got married. So they appointed me to typing and shorthand and that was the only one. I did not want to do anything of the other four things, just the office.

00:19:01.600 - 00:19:22.660

Had you had that in high school? Yes, in high school I had typing and shorthand. And so therefore I went to Kansas City and had six more months and then went to work in a radio station.

00:19:23.500 - 00:19:30.300

Was that kind of a little business school that you went to for six months? Yes. Where did you live? Kansas City, Missouri.

00:19:30.520 - 00:20:01.820

Did you live in someone's home? Oh, the school had an arrangement for to pay the tuition. You could live in somebody's home and keep house for them. And so that lady, because I didn't have any brothers or sisters and never was around

00:20:02.140 - 00:20:28.420

children, didn't have those relationships, so I didn't grow up around children, and I didn't like babies. And so that lady at that school, she picked a house that didn't have any children. And she did that, and I said I appreciated it, and she says, "Well, I did that because

00:20:28.440 - 00:20:53.820

I thought you'd be happier without them." And so I, for room and board, I would clean house on Saturday, and then plus that they They paid one dollar to ride the bus or streetcar wherever you were. And so that was it until I went to work.

00:20:54.000 - 00:21:19.400

And then in those days, you did not really have apartments and most girls were living with home anyway. But if you weren't living at home, you rented rooms. Franky, let me back up a minute and ask you on the farm that your granddad had, what did

00:21:19.460 - 00:21:39.880

he grow? Oats, corn, and wheat. And then what did he do with those products? He, well, of course, he used it to feed the livestock, but that was his living.

00:21:40.980 - 00:22:15.660

For instance, during the Depression, when I was eighth grade, in 1933, I graduated from grades, eighth grade. Corn, the market went down to 25 cents a bushel for corn. And it was so low that my grandfather said he couldn't afford to sell it.

00:22:16.280 - 00:22:43.580

He just put it in the bin. And because his crops were so good, because besides the Depression it was also drought, and crops had burnt up. But his corn was so good, some distilleries in Kansas City, Missouri found him and paid

00:22:43.580 - 00:23:02.280

him $50 a bushel, which was a gold mine. And I remember he got $300 for that prized corn. And what did those distillers make with that corn? Whiskey.

00:23:05.570 - 00:23:40.080

Well, I wondered with him living out, did your granddad have a car or a truck? Yes. Model T, Ford Model T. And then when he got the $300, he bought a 1926 Buick. When you graduated from this business school, that's six months, then what kind of job did

00:23:40.080 - 00:23:59.340

you get? I got a job in a radio station, KCKN. It was 100 watts. I became, besides a secretary, it was called a traffic manager.

00:24:00.100 - 00:24:25.200

I did the scheduling of the programs and it was called traffic. It was right at the beginning of the 40-hour week. We worked until 7, 8 o'clock at night and loved it. I thought it was wonderful.

00:24:27.340 - 00:24:51.840

Because you see, because the first change, not everybody did the same thing. So it was the beginning of Social Security, unemployment, and so on. This station did not pay attention to forty hours. And of course we did not get overtime.

00:24:53.100 - 00:25:32.220

Gielgud Were there other girls working at the station? Yes, there was one who was the secretary to the general manager and one was a continuity writer, which is script, and me and the announcers and engineers and the head continuity writer and that's about it.

00:25:32.780 - 00:26:01.980

Were you able on weekends maybe to go out and visit your grandparents? My grandfather died that year. And so they had moved off of the farm and went closer to Kansas City to Olathe, which was 25 miles from Kansas City.

00:26:02.440 - 00:26:15.000

And so he died and then I would go to see my grandmother, because she was alone then. I would go every other weekend to see her. Okay.

00:26:15.780 - 00:26:46.000

Then how long did you work at the radio station? I worked there for a year and then I worked for an insurance company company for claim attorneys for a legal secretary, and then for about a year, and then back to a different radio station, KCMO radio, and I was both a receptionist for a trunk line

00:26:47.440 - 00:27:09.880

switchboard, PBS, and also a secretary. Now I have to tell you to distinguish between a secretary and a stenographer. In those days a stenographer only did typing. A secretary did both typing and Greg shorthand.

00:27:10.900 - 00:27:28.980

So that made a difference in three dollars more pay. A stenographer got $12, a secretary got $15 a week. A week? A week.

00:27:31.660 - 00:28:00.800

How were you treated by the male counterparts in those jobs? Well, my social circle was the coworkers. Because it's a business that's in its own world. And then after that job, what did you move to?

00:28:00.940 - 00:28:23.180

After the second radio station? I stayed with KCMO two years. And then that radio station, it was a local radio station, and then they went to network. I don't know if anybody has heard from—there was a red and blue network.

00:28:25.460 - 00:28:36.780

And I don't remember whether it was NBC or CBS or ABC. It seems like it was ABC. I don't remember. But at any rate, it was split.

00:28:37.940 - 00:29:01.280

There was a blue network and a red network. Well, when they went to national, that cut the work. And they had to cut staff because they didn't need as much staff. And so there wasn't anything to do.

00:29:01.840 - 00:29:40.840

And the general manager said, "How come you're staying, keeping me?" And he says, "Well, it's not fair for you because you don't have any work." So I got bored and I looked for something else and it happened to be TWA in the hostess office accidentally on Municipal Airport, which is now Downtown Airport.

00:29:41.060 - 00:29:54.280

I am losing my breath so I need to rest a minute. Okay, you ready Frankie? I think so. Okay, you are going to work for TWA, tell us about that.

00:29:54.320 - 00:30:14.080

Oh yes, I probably should tell you first in grade school, in the first grade in the country, the neighboring farmer had four boys and no girls. And I was an only child. So I was a pet because of the boys.

00:30:17.840 - 00:30:39.020

The third boy was in my class, first grade, and the fourth boy was not in school yet. The other two were older. This was a one-room school. So he and I got out because of first grade.

00:30:40.100 - 00:31:01.780

We walked home and picked violets along the way. We played together at recesses. Even though the girls played with the girls and the boys played with the boys, we played with each other.

00:31:03.000 - 00:31:28.760

And so we were walking home from school and picking violets and he says, "Will you marry me when we grow up?" And what was his name? And you know, all of a sudden in this talk, I am losing his name.

00:31:29.460 - 00:31:55.220

I will have to think about it, because John George and the third boy, isn't that awful? That was the most serious name, and I can't think of it right now. But at any rate, I said, "Well, I will ask Mother." I went home and I asked my mother and my grandmother, because my mother was a millinery and she

00:31:55.300 - 00:32:12.480

would come weekends. And so I told them, "Oh, Joe! Joe asked me to marry him." And of course they were snickering and they said, "Well, what did you say?"

00:32:12.480 - 00:32:40.480

And I said, "Well, I'd say, I'd tell, I'd ask my mother." And she says, "Well, we'll see when you grow up." Well, when he grew up, he went to the Marines and he was killed in World War II. And the oldest boy, John, became governor of the state of Kansas.

00:32:41.280 - 00:32:51.200

What was his last name? Anderson. John Anderson. And he was a lawyer first, of course, and became governor.

00:32:52.020 - 00:33:21.760

And so that was a very special family. Did you keep in contact with Joe all those years? No, well, in a way because he was killed in World War II. He was killed early in the war, so therefore there was no contact from there on.

00:33:22.640 - 00:33:44.380

Later on, after the WASP, I would see his parents in Olathe, so I kept in touch with them. Now TWA. Now I had not thought about flying.

00:33:45.460 - 00:34:14.400

The only thing I knew—I did not even look up when airplanes went over. In Kansas City, the old terminal building, there was a restaurant and a lobby on the first floor. And the second floor was the passenger service department.

00:34:15.400 - 00:34:40.520

And there were only three people in that staff for the whole country. And I was the secretary to the chief hostess. And during that time, after about nine or ten months, there was a man from Wichita came to Kansas City to buy an airplane.

00:34:40.700 - 00:35:08.060

He was a flight operator. The CPT started change to WTS, War Training Service. And at that time, men were being drafted and so therefore they had to hire women to do everything.

00:35:08.790 - 00:35:37.040

They would have to just hire and train. And so I was in a group when he visited from Kansas, and he was from, did I say Wichita? He was from Wichita. And so in a social hour he says, "Why don't you become a link training operator for us?"

00:35:37.340 - 00:35:49.720

And I said, "What is that?" Was this after Pearl Harbor? Steele: Let me think. Just right about the same time.

00:35:53.360 - 00:36:12.160

Yes. Right at the same time. And so at any rate, there were only a dozen instructor operators in the whole country, and they were being drafted.

00:36:14.160 - 00:36:47.520

So he explained all about Link training, and it sounded very interesting, and the salary was a hundred and fifty dollars a month after getting sixty months. Sixty dollars a month, fifty dollars a week. So I accepted and he he gave me the first first month's check and I went to Wichita and became an instructor.

00:36:47.520 - 00:37:06.340

First, they had to train me. I went through one class and the government closed the program. So I was left high and dry and had to go back to Kansas City. Of course, I lived from paycheck to paycheck, so I was broke.

00:37:07.200 - 00:37:43.980

I had to stay with a former roommate. She had married, and so I was staying at her house. And the next week, the government started shipping the links to the airlines to give The Army pilots who were going to be assigned for ATC, Air Transport Command, and the airline

00:37:44.100 - 00:38:13.320

captains would give them transition before they reported for that assignment. So I could be hired with either TWA or Mid-Continent. Well I had just started buying. Then by that time I wanted to fly and I would have to buy my own time.

00:38:14.560 - 00:38:53.700

And so Mid-Continent was right next door to the fleet operator where I was buying my own time. So I was hired there, which Mid-Continent later was sold to Brenna in 1950. At any rate, that government lasted from March to October 1943, and the government closed

00:38:53.860 - 00:39:15.260

that program. And I was out of a job again. And so that operator, his wife, was his office manager and they were going to go on a trip and they wanted me to take care of the office.

00:39:15.380 - 00:39:37.940

So they hired me, so they paid me, they figured out what I needed to live on and the rest they would pay in flight time. So they paid me in $100 cash and gave me flying time for $50. So they matched my salary.

00:39:38.160 - 00:40:03.480

So then at that time I applied for the WASP. Levy: What was the first aircraft that you flew? Luscombe, the side-by-side all aluminum trainer. Do you recall, I'm going to go back a little bit, do you recall where you were and how

00:40:03.480 - 00:40:36.160

it affected you when Pearl Harbor happened? At the time, oh that's right, I was still with the radio station. The WTS happened right after Pearl. I was on the switchboard and I listened to all the excitement and I was on the switchboard

00:40:36.340 - 00:40:56.000

so therefore the phones were busy and the news was busy and so on. So it was, I didn't have anybody in the service. I wasn't connected with anything. So it was just news to me.

00:40:56.380 - 00:41:05.780

So I had no direct interest. Right. Okay. We're going to have to stop and change the tape.

00:41:06.260 - 00:41:11.040

Okay. Okay. So we'll just take a minute to do that. You're fascinating.

00:41:13.120 - 00:41:43.860

Okay. When you first started flying, what gave you that desire to learn to fly? Well, as soon as I was exposed with aviation by way of Link, then I was bitten by the bug. Incidentally, Link was the inventor of the first simulator.

00:41:44.330 - 00:42:20.360

It wasn't called a simulator in those days, it was just called a Link. But it was the mock-up airplane mounted on a ball and socket that revolves. And it has a cockpit with instruments. The operator worked the radio signals in those days.

00:42:24.560 - 00:42:54.520

In those years it was half visual and half audio. So they had—you've heard of the beam? They transmitted A and N signals. Two quadrants were A, D-dot, and two quadrants were N, dot, dash—

00:42:59.860 - 00:43:30.480

We're getting our "dits" mixed up. So the operator worked the signals in a desk and cables attached to that cocktail. So they inked a little wheel that traced the flight paths of the pattern. And then when the student pilot got out, then you would discuss how he did on his pattern.

00:43:31.840 - 00:43:51.740

When you decided that you wanted to learn to fly, did you know any other girls who were flying? No, only when I started with that flight operator. And then in those days when the war started, everybody else had families and they had somebody

00:43:51.820 - 00:44:10.780

in the service and they all wanted to become students. So I learned them then. But until then, nobody. And so what made you think you could learn to fly if you didn't know any girls that were

00:44:10.900 - 00:44:23.060

flying? It didn't have anything to do with being a girl. You just wanted to fly. You began to take lessons.

00:44:23.680 - 00:44:48.060

Do you recall when you soloed and how that made you feel? You had to have eight hours. You weren't allowed to solo under than that. But I did, I soloed on the dot of the eight hours and of course it was just marvelous,

00:44:48.460 - 00:45:06.440

just marvelous. On that first solo flight, what did you do? Did you just do a pattern and come in and land or did you break out of the pattern? No, you always did three takeoffs and landings and that's all the first time.

00:45:07.760 - 00:45:43.200

And the second time, because the instructor didn't want you to get cocky or get buck fever, you had to see how your emotions went. And so the second solo you would do takeoffs again and go out of the pattern. And then the third time you were checked out, you got to go yourself from there on, until

00:45:43.200 - 00:46:20.720

you started practicing for a private license. At the time that you were flying, how did you hear about the WASP training program? Frank and Marie Tracy knew about it, and they said—the owner of the flight operator that I was working for, Midwest Flying Service—and they told me about it, and they said, "You

00:46:20.880 - 00:46:34.780

have to apply." How many hours, at that point, how many hours did you have to have before you could even apply? EILEEN HURST: Thirty-five hours.

00:46:36.780 - 00:46:58.040

EILEEN HURST: When you applied, what else did you have to do besides just applying? Were you interviewed? We were interviewed later. Now first, the first WASP, of course, you understand, I think everybody knows the story,

00:46:58.200 - 00:47:28.660

that the first WASPs had to have two hundred hours. And then when the program was being approved, then the hours came down. And by the time my class, or the last classes, only required thirty-five hours. So it coincided that at the same time of attaining thirty-five hours, then I applied.

00:47:29.560 - 00:48:09.780

And so the recruiter came through Kansas City at that time. And so my application was accepted and then I continued flying in the interim, waiting to be accepted. And finally, I was somewhere along the line, I was accepted to take the cadet intelligence

00:48:09.780 - 00:48:59.600

at home because the WASPs were going to be militarized in anticipation of that. We had to do a cadet, a three-hour test to see if you could be able to be a cadet candidate. And so Fairfax Field, across the Missouri River from the municipal airport, had the Air Corps base there.

00:49:00.660 - 00:49:45.860

And I went to Fairfax for that test and passed that, and then had to take an Air Corps physical, had to take a chaperone because there were only men there. And it was funny, during that physical, it was a very young doctor and a very old nurse. When I was lying on my back undressed from the top, she had a towel across my chest and

00:49:46.020 - 00:50:15.520

she very carefully covered one breast and uncovered that breast. She very carefully covered that one and uncovered the other one. And all the time she watched him very carefully. It was really funny.

00:50:15.900 - 00:50:26.460

And he had to stand there and be very serious. And how did you feel about it? Oh, I was just dying. I was busting.

00:50:27.500 - 00:50:39.160

(Laughter) And what happened to your chaperone? Well she wasn't right there by the time. She was in a waiting room.

00:50:40.880 - 00:50:46.660

Just when you needed her. Yes. So you passed the physical. Yes.

00:50:46.660 - 00:51:00.740

Right. Let me ask you, in your learning to fly, up until you went into WASP training, were there Was there any unusual things that happened to you? At when?

00:51:01.510 - 00:51:17.360

While you were flying privately to get your 35 hours in. Did you have any near mishaps? No, things went along fine. Was there ever a time when you were afraid?

00:51:18.480 - 00:51:33.320

No. Oddly enough, it just seemed like it was perfect, the most natural thing to do. It seemed like it was just great. I did not have any trouble.

00:51:34.060 - 00:51:42.200

Everything was fine. Good. After you passed all the tests and the physical and stuff, how were you notified to report for training?

00:51:45.300 - 00:52:23.320

Western telegram and I have a copy of it here and if you want to you want me to find it? Oh she's got it. Okay. She'll take a picture. Okay. And then once you got that telegram did you then know any other girls who were going to be going to training? Well, they weren't local. They -- see, the recruiter met in Kansas City, but people came from -- in the whole area,

00:52:23.620 - 00:52:49.620

like Nebraska and far away. In fact, I have a classmate who came from Lincoln to travel to Kansas City to apply. And she is the only one I can remember. It seems like there was about a dozen who was there for that interview.

00:52:50.690 - 00:53:16.560

At this time your grandmother was still alive? Yes. And how did she feel about your learning to fly and that you were going into training? Steele: Well, she by that time had left Olathe and was living with her son in Lawrence, the

00:53:16.700 - 00:53:30.360

home of Kansas University. And I didn't visit with them by that time and we didn't talk about it really that much. So you got on the train and went to Sweetwater? Yes.

00:53:31.160 - 00:53:54.660

Tell me how you felt when you first arrived at Avenger Field. Oh, just absolutely heavenly. We arrived on a Sunday night. Well, let's see, it had to be—report day was 26, so Sunday must have been the 25th

00:53:54.760 - 00:54:25.740

of May. And I stayed at the Blue Bonnet Hotel that overnight. And the home of Kansas City Steaks is known the world over. But when I was going to go to Texas, I started hearing about Texas Steaks.

00:54:26.620 - 00:55:01.240

So I will order a Texas Steak. Well, Kansas City steaks are two inches high and tender and so on. That steak was a quarter-inch high and was bigger than the platter and it lopped over. I was in hysterics of that steak.

00:55:01.240 - 00:55:24.200

But at any rate, then went to the cattle car and there we were. What were your expectations with that training program? Just to again graduate. But what did you expect to do?

00:55:24.820 - 00:56:03.300

What did they tell you you would be doing? We started with the stearman of the PT-17, my plane, in primary. First of all, when we arrived there, we had to stand inspection. The trains were so full of servicemen, they had to take World War I and old trains were

00:56:03.400 - 00:56:38.340

taken out of storage and put them back in service. Many of our suitcases did not arrive. Sweetwater gave us the white shirt and the khaki pants, but I had my own shoes with sandals. I did not have any Oxfords because the luggage had not arrived.

00:56:39.500 - 00:57:14.380

So this big, tall captain—I can remember his expression. He was being very serious, but he was working on being serious, but inside he was busting. And he leaned over down from me and he said, "Miss, do you have any solid toed shoes?" And he was just being silly.

00:57:14.560 - 00:57:42.180

He thought he had to be officious. But at any rate, we started with primary and you had to solo again in eight hours. And you did sixty hours in primary. And then instead of—they switched the next two phases.

00:57:44.000 - 00:58:22.120

Usually in the earlier class went from primary, basic, advanced. Now they went from primary to advanced, from the PT-17 to the AT-6, which was like changing from a bicycle to a Cadillac. And the shock of that first hour in the 86—now, I had acquired, in the wait for getting to

00:58:22.200 - 00:58:43.720

Sweetwater, I had acquired 80 hours. So I had developed a good feel of the airplane. That first hour in the 86, I suddenly lost all feel. It was so sensitive on the instruments.

00:58:47.200 - 00:59:16.060

All I could do was, because I was a link operator, I reached—I believed the instruments. So I flew by the instruments, but I could not feel the controls. It was shocking. But at any rate, after the second hour, then I could feel again.

00:59:17.540 - 00:59:37.020

And we had solo in eight hours there. When they started with that phase, they really begged and said, "Now look, that is a heavy airplane. It's very sensitive.

00:59:40.280 - 01:00:07.160

They only give us thirty hours, and really thirty hours is only enough to solo, and you have to solo in eight hours." So at any rate, we went through and then the third phase was instruments. Levy: What was instruments like for you since you had been in the link trainer?

01:00:07.340 - 01:00:52.120

Steele: Just like I was back home again. The only thing with that program, they gave us thirty-five hours of link. That link program, the first hours you have to learn to fly the link, which is rectangular patterns, S turns, 360 degrees.

01:00:53.580 - 01:01:23.320

And so you only need three or four hours to do that. And then you should go on to the orientation programs, or problems, and to learn the A and N signals. But the Air Corps used fifteen hours of those patterns before they gave you orientation

01:01:24.240 - 01:01:45.940

problems. And that was why when I got those students back in Kansas City, those Army Air Corps pilots couldn't follow a compass heading and they couldn't listen to a signal, couldn't recognize a signal.

01:01:46.500 - 01:02:11.880

And when I saw that program in Sweetwater, I knew why. They wasted all that time in doing rectangular courses instead of doing orientation. At any rate, in my case, those first 15 hours were a big bore. (Laughter)

01:02:14.340 - 01:02:27.100

You can just tell me anything about training that you would like to talk about. What did you do, for example, in primary? What was that mainly for? Did you learn aerobatics?

01:02:27.440 - 01:02:56.760

Did you do cross-countries? Steele Well there was some cross country in each phase. In the middle of the thirty hours I got really tired. Years later I learned that I was having anemia off and on, but I did not know that.

01:02:57.820 - 01:03:17.140

And I had become very, very tired. And my instructor said, "You started, when I started out, you were my best student. Now you're not safe to solo. What happened to you?"

01:03:17.140 - 01:03:32.700

And I said, "I'm tired." And I was so tired that I didn't even care. And then all of a sudden it rained. Oh, and it was near the end of the 30 days and it was time to take a check ride, and

01:03:32.760 - 01:03:45.520

he couldn't send me to a check ride. And I didn't care. And at any rate, it rained. It rained Thursday and Friday.

01:03:46.360 - 01:04:04.140

They would have flown us on the weekend. It rained Saturday and Sunday. So I had four days off and I got rested up and he checked me out on Monday so that I could take my check ride.

01:04:04.980 - 01:04:38.280

And I got a B on that ride. I could do no wrong. It was my finest hour in the air. And when I say a B, a B in flying was the same as an A because Czech pilots grade down,

01:04:39.100 - 01:05:05.300

so you won't get—flight students have to be—what am I trying to say? They have to grade down so you don't get cocky. So if you were doing good, you got a C. That was good. If you got a B, that was unbelievable.

01:05:05.840 - 01:05:21.380

There are only two got Bs. Now if you got an F, then you were in trouble. But C was supposed to be "You're okay." What kind of trouble did you get in if you got an F?

01:05:21.920 - 01:05:47.360

What would you have to do? They had to take E rides, elimination rides. And there was a friend in a different class, the class earlier, 44-9. She got through E-Rides all the way through.

01:05:47.540 - 01:06:02.060

I don't know how she did it, but she made it. She graduated. But elimination ride mostly was washed out. Levy: During your time at Avenger, were you ever afraid?

01:06:03.300 - 01:06:34.160

No, there was one time after I went back home. At home, the Constellation called the four-engine Connie had started and the airport started requiring radio in the trainers. Before that, they were not required.

01:06:35.580 - 01:07:11.440

We called the tower on the phone and asked for permission to take off. And they would give us red lights to wait. When we were ready to take off, then they would give us a green light. Well, I did not know the new procedure at the airport.

01:07:11.700 - 01:07:41.260

They did not tell me that. And that airplane that I had did not have radio. And so I called on the phone and asked permission. And only because you were taught to look 360 degrees at a time, you kept your head in a

01:07:41.860 - 01:08:15.960

swivel. crossing a runway, I looked to the right to be sure nobody was there, to go to another runway, and lo and behold, here came a Connie on takeoff. And the brakes in a cub trainer just went squish.

01:08:16.400 - 01:08:44.640

They didn't stop. So if I used the brakes, I would have stopped in the middle of the runway. So I just put the throttle on and flew across that runway. And when I got to the next runway and stopped and turned around to face the tower, I was

01:08:44.740 - 01:09:13.680

so scared I had to take my hand and put it on my chin and turn my head. And they had pulled their throttles and they had slowed down and they were turning around to come back and start on another. And because of that near miss, I could just imagine, I could hear those pilots in that

01:09:13.780 - 01:09:43.640

cockpit swearing about those students and that female. But I was so, when you hear about paralyzed with fear, I was paralyzed with fear. I did not know whether I was more afraid to go home or to go out in the area and practice. But I went out and practiced.

01:09:44.100 - 01:10:09.500

Let me ask you, when you got to Avenger, what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make to go through training? I was such a loner, no siblings, no playmates, hardly ever. I was myself.

01:10:10.380 - 01:10:34.820

And all of a sudden I was lost in a sea of people. And my classmates, you know, they have a saying under each picture. Mine says, "Oh, for my own little room." So here I was, one of six girls in a room, and that was really a big adjustment.

01:10:35.650 - 01:10:59.380

Did you finally really love it, though, being with those girls? Oh, yes, because you see, our bay didn't lose anybody. I never have found out if anybody else did that, but our bay didn't lose an elimination, weren't washed out or resigned.

01:10:59.960 - 01:11:23.880

All six of us made it, and one of them has died now. So there are five of us, but our six were very proud of that. Perhaps, did you help the rest of your baymates along with their link trainer class to get through that?

01:11:24.950 - 01:11:44.640

Steele I remember one, not in my bay, but somebody else in my class. And I forgot her name because she died young with cancer after at home. And I can't remember.

01:11:45.420 - 01:12:11.320

Even though no one washed out in your bay, do you know what percentage or about how many in your class did wash out? Well yeah, 68 graduated and we lost about, I forgot the exact number, about 50. So it was almost 50% that watched that.

01:12:11.320 - 01:12:22.280

Almost, almost. What was the thing that you enjoyed most about training? Excuse me? The thing that you enjoyed most about the training.

01:12:23.040 - 01:12:28.660

Oh my. All of it. All of it. What was your favorite aircraft to fly?

01:12:28.680 - 01:12:45.960

Oh of course the AT-6. The PT-13. I mean that's universal for every pilot. loves the AT-6. The PT-17 is like an overgrown cub and it has a narrow

01:12:46.920 - 01:13:08.260

landing gear so it wobbles. During the time you were at Avenger you had some cross-country flights. Yes. Was there ever anything unusual that happened on any of those flights that you were aware of, did you ever get lost? Yes.

01:13:10.300 - 01:13:29.460

Tell us about that. It was, the conditions were absolutely perfect. There wasn't a ripple in the air, it was absolute perfection. So I folded up the chart and put it back in the box.

01:13:35.760 - 01:13:48.500

Because I was holding a heading, everything was perfect. What could happen? It was just a few miles. It was an hour trip and I only had a half hour to go.

01:13:52.240 - 01:14:23.180

And somewhere along the line I got off the map, because by the time I pulled the map out I could not find it. I had gone south of course. And so finally, see it was a trip to Lubbock and I had—and I had forgotten where I got

01:14:23.220 - 01:14:35.340

off. I would have to look at the map. But it was south. So when I finally found it, then I used the instruments to orient myself with the A&N

01:14:35.540 - 01:15:00.400

signals. So I searched for a station. And then when I found a station and a field, then I landed. And so I personally took it very seriously, but at the same time, for me, there was no

01:15:00.460 - 01:15:19.920

excuse and I just thought it was funny. So when I got home, I went into the ready room and I was laughing about how—and they did not think that was funny. And they got very serious about it.

01:15:21.120 - 01:15:43.620

But my instructor went to bat for me because of what I had done and because I was a Link I was not a cocky person. He stood up for me because they were going to wash me out. At least they were threatening.

01:15:47.340 - 01:16:13.140

But from then on I knew, do not laugh. While you were in training, how were you notified that the WASPs were going to be disbanded and how did that make you feel? Well, when they – let's see.

01:16:14.340 - 01:16:52.040

The bill was introduced in June '44, thirty days after my class arrived. And that's when Washington started the argument about whether to pass our bill or not, and it was lost by nineteen votes. And so it was the end of the session of Congress, and they said, "Well, we'll reintroduce

01:16:52.160 - 01:17:10.600

it the next September." Let me ask you to explain what that bill was for. To militarize the WASP, to make us military. We were civilians because we were military everything except with the paycheck.

01:17:12.120 - 01:17:32.080

We were, had the equivalency of cadets, we were the equivalent of second lieutenants afterwards. We had to live military. We were subject to court-martial, which—

01:17:35.840 - 01:18:20.740

We didn't take the oath, but we were subject to court-martial as though we were military. And so, when—except the paycheck made us civilians. So therefore, they—so all that summer, they anticipated we would be militarized in September. Well, then the rumors began from there on.

01:18:21.820 - 01:18:44.660

Every morning when your bugle sounded, there was a new set of rumors. You went to bed with one set of rumors, you got up with a new set of rumors. All the way through. Well, when they did not reintroduce the bill, they'd shelve it.

01:18:45.280 - 01:19:01.940

They'd deactivate the program. They didn't set a date. So our class wouldn't finish. Every day, every day, every day, every day, we would be sent home.

01:19:02.700 - 01:19:42.580

So my class had to sweat, wash out by flying or by being sent home. And so finally they did decide to set a date. And the date was—they made the decision in November that they would set December 20th to be the last day. So then my class would graduate December 7 and we

01:19:42.660 - 01:20:21.760

would go home. We wouldn't get assignments. And so when we did graduate it was a Thursday and our bags were packed by the door and after graduation we'd leave. But the CO announced, "Dismiss your visitors, you're staying, because I'm on the phone with Washington to give you assignments until December 20th." He says, "It's not

01:20:21.760 - 01:21:00.080

fair for you, your class lacked ten to fourteen days being eligible for commercial license at home. And the orders for cadets, you had to be on solo status to be on six months solo status to be eligible to get a commercial license in the civilian life.

01:21:00.960 - 01:21:27.480

So if they could have assignments from there until the 20th, then we would have that six months. So it took him—he was on the phone from Thursday afternoon until Sunday afternoon, calling us about every two hours for the latest phone call.

01:21:28.520 - 01:21:50.560

And he got his permission to give us assignments. And they sent us as close as possible to Sweetwater so that we wouldn't lose time on travel. So I went to San Angelo. Okay, got to change the tape.

01:21:51.690 - 01:22:00.740

How are you doing, Frankie? Oh, that's good. See, I've never heard all of this before. Oh. So I had no idea how you found out.

01:22:00.740 - 01:22:18.840

Are you doing okay? Do you want to rest? I didn't know at first. I could not figure out how he got my name. And at any rate, I told Marty about him and she never answered him.

01:22:20.260 - 01:22:41.300

And at any rate, I sent him material and because he was doing the book on Stearman, just, and it's there, Stearman is down there someplace. And I'm on one page in there. Yeah.

01:22:43.790 - 01:22:59.120

And that's page seventy-something? Okay. And he switched a couple of dates on us, but I guess I wrote in there. Okay.

01:23:01.090 - 01:23:18.240

Let me ask you, what was the name of the commanding officer at Avenger? The CO? Roy P. Ward. Tell me about your graduation.

01:23:24.120 - 01:23:49.140

He told us that he didn't want his assignment at Sweetwater because his record was excellent. place he had been. And the prior COs in Sweetwater left with satisfactory, and he did not want to spoil his record.

01:23:50.580 - 01:24:13.400

And so, at any rate, he had to take it. And when he got there, then he found out he wished he had been there from the beginning, Because he said if he had been the commander, you would have been militarized. And that is the way he operated.

01:24:14.020 - 01:24:29.120

He gave permission in the proper way and then he would go ahead and do what he was going to do. And he did not wait, he just went ahead and got it done. And that is how he worked.

01:24:29.960 - 01:25:07.640

So that is why he gave us assignments. I was in nine of us were sent to San Angelo, Goodfellow Field, and the nickname was "Fine Buddy Pastures." And because that CO didn't have anything for us to do in such a short time, he would

01:25:07.640 - 01:25:43.160

do something for us. And he gave us refresher time with his pilots and his BT-13s to take civilian procedures and sent us to Fort Worth to take civilian check rides to get instrument ratings. And then at home we would only have to take the written to get an instrument rating on

01:25:43.220 - 01:26:00.440

our commercial license. So ten of us were sent. Nine in my class were there, and let's see, there were seventeen WASPs were at that base at Goodfield.

01:26:02.560 - 01:26:27.580

Ten of us went to Fort Worth to take the test. Two of us were link operators. It really was not enough time to do the civilian procedures, to learn the civilian procedures to pass a test.

01:26:28.780 - 01:26:54.420

The only reason that the two of us passed was because we already knew those procedures. But at any rate, that was wonderful for him to do that for us. He did not have any work and any duty for us to do, but he gave that for us because he was in favor of the WASP program.

01:26:54.980 - 01:27:10.140

Some of the COs were hostile, but he was in favor of us. Now let me go back and ask you to tell us about your graduation. I know that was special. Oh, yes.

01:27:11.680 - 01:27:45.680

Because we were the last class, General Arnold himself came. The other class he attended and was the speaker and the presenter of the wings was 44-2. When they anticipated us being military, he went to Sweetwater. And then the second time he came because we were the last class.

01:27:46.220 - 01:28:06.560

So those two classes received our wings personally from him. So those wings on that uniform are touched by the big man. (Laughter) By this time did you have your new Santiago Blue uniforms?

01:28:07.180 - 01:28:22.520

Yes. It was a few classes before that we got the uniforms. I have forgotten. I think early in the year they started with the blue uniforms.

01:28:23.610 - 01:28:40.320

Now I know since you were the last class that there was not a class there to parade, but what happened that was special about your graduation as far as girls who had already graduated? I'm not quite following.

01:28:43.000 - 01:29:00.820

For your graduation, they let the girls, many of them who had already graduated, did they not come back specifically for your graduation? Oh yes, I think there were, if I remember this, about a hundred were there to see that last graduation.

01:29:02.780 - 01:29:35.640

We marched before the ceremony in the auditorium. We marched for them in review. And then where was your graduation ceremony held? In the auditorium at Sweetwater.

01:29:36.100 - 01:30:07.360

And who else attended besides General Arnold? Well quite a bit of brass. Three generals, see many servicemen even saw one general, but because of the women's program, they always had lots of high brass and generals.

01:30:08.220 - 01:30:38.760

And how did you specifically feel when General Arle gave you those wings? Well, I was busting. And so when he handed my wings to me, I put my hand on his and I said, "General, I think you should kiss us on either cheek like a French general."

01:30:39.180 - 01:30:58.020

And he stopped and he looked down and he grinned and he says, "You want to start something there?" Gail DePriest: Then after your graduation, how did you get to Goodfellow? Elizabeth Steele: You know, I don't remember.

01:30:58.120 - 01:31:07.100

It must have been by bus. Has to have been. Gail DePriest: Okay. When you were disbanded, did Goodfellow, did the commanding officer do anything special

01:31:07.220 - 01:31:33.860

for you girls? Yes, they let us, they took us home with his pilots and his airplanes and the orders said we had to find our own way, our own transportation, no expense to the government, but he gave He took us home at his expense.

01:31:35.520 - 01:31:53.680

Tell me, what do you think the value of that training meant to you? Invaluable. There was, there's no, there's no money. You couldn't possibly.

01:31:54.140 - 01:32:31.240

It cost them $25,000 each person to train us. The training is invaluable, beyond. And of course, because of that, that's why I was able to be an instructor. I had to pay my own civilian time to take the checkride in Kansas City.

01:32:31.480 - 01:32:51.960

But there is just no way to say what an opportunity that was. When you got home, was your grandmother still alive? Did she get to see you in your uniform? I went to see her in Lawrence.

01:32:51.980 - 01:33:09.460

Oh yes. How proud did that make you feel? I'm not quite sure. You see, people in civilian life really didn't quite understand what was going on.

01:33:14.300 - 01:33:37.440

I would be in conversation and somebody was interested and I would start telling them all about what I was and what I was doing. I would be talking for five minutes without stopping and I would think they were hearing me.

01:33:39.340 - 01:33:57.140

And then they would say, "You fly?" Pause. In the air. And they hadn't understood a word I was saying.

01:33:57.260 - 01:34:23.120

It was really funny. And when I renewed my instructor's rating twenty-three years later, in 1970, I explained it to a neighbor. And I thought she was taking it all in and I thought she was understanding all of it.

01:34:23.820 - 01:34:39.840

And all of a sudden she said, "You fly?" In the air. And I thought, nothing had changed. (Laughter)

01:34:39.900 - 01:35:02.240

Franke, why don't you tell me about your life after the WASP, when you went back home, then start from there and tell me. Oh, golly. I instructed for two years, Marshall, Missouri, and Stevens College in Columbia, Missouri,

01:35:03.440 - 01:35:29.420

and of course Kansas City. Did you have female students as well as male students? Both kinds. And it would start when I first got it, my old civilian instructor, he would be the one

01:35:29.520 - 01:35:49.880

to go between. And he would, somebody, a student, a male student would come in and then they would say, he would say, "Miss Meisner would take you." And they would go in shock and they were stuck and they were scared to death.

01:35:52.640 - 01:36:12.460

But then we'd go up and we'd come down without any accident and then they thought you were superhuman. It was funny. So consequently there were no ordinary WASPs.

01:36:13.140 - 01:36:35.380

They thought you were either the lowest or the highest. And you were always the highest. And then when you finished that job, what did you do then? Well, then I had not been interested in marrying like other people were because I did not have

01:36:35.380 - 01:36:59.600

the social life in the teens, I just wanted to be free. So I was not interested in marrying until -- in those days if a girl wasn't married by 25 she was in panic. I wasn't interested in marrying until after 25.

01:37:00.540 - 01:37:33.160

And then I started being interested and I met a pilot after Stevens College. Well during that winter he was flying and I would go—I would see him in Kansas City. And then he said, "Let's get married." And I said, "Okay."

01:37:33.160 - 01:37:55.540

Well then it turned out that he turned out—and I was married to him five years, and two children, and polio in between. And then he deserted us, and it turned out—it took sixteen years to learn. I was his eighth wife.

01:37:56.140 - 01:38:05.140

He was a bigamist. He was a pilot. Well, let me ask you, what was there about that young man that attracted you to him and made you fall in love?

01:38:05.800 - 01:38:31.240

Well, he was a pilot. What else No, pero él nunca se preocupó con el divorcio, él simplemente se mudó.

01:38:32.640 - 01:38:43.020

Pero porque los demás se casaron un par de meses o un año, nos casamos cinco años. Entonces...

01:38:43.130 - 01:38:59.560

¿Dónde estabas cuando él se fue? Y él había sido reclamado por Corea. Y vivíamos en la base en Victorville, California. California at George Air Force Base.

01:39:02.840 - 01:39:15.860

So— EILEEN HURST: When he left for overseas, what did you do? Did you stay at Victorville? ALDA JOHNSON: Well, he told me he was leaving for Brussels for a diplomatic assignment.

01:39:16.960 - 01:39:36.000

So where did I want to stay? So I wanted to go back to Kansas City. And so he sent us to Kansas City. And a month after that, anonymously, I got a sheet of paper in the mail about his marriage

01:39:36.180 - 01:39:56.340

in Mexico. So he married two times after me. But I did not know until he was crashed. Sixteen years later, I did not learn that I was the eighth wife.

01:39:57.380 - 01:40:28.240

You had stayed married to him while he went to Korea and came back? No. When I learned that he was a bigamist, I had to find out what was going on. I saw a general in Kansas City, an Air Force general, and he said, "Well, I think you

01:40:28.380 - 01:40:51.880

need to talk to his CO in Brussels." And so I wrote to them and told the story. And after much—of course, they did not accept my word for it in the beginning. It took quite a bit of correspondence before they realized what was happening, because

01:40:51.960 - 01:41:16.340

he claimed I was divorced and they sent for the record in Los Angeles where I had divorced and of course there was no record and all that stuff. And so when they finally convinced that I was telling the truth and he was lying, then They allowed him to resign his commission.

01:41:18.520 - 01:42:00.240

So he came to the United States and then it was just by miraculous circumstances that would happen that I would find him. Air Child Aerial Surveys hired him and because people would not believe it, the lawyer sent a copy of the petition for divorce and when he sent it, said, "We want to find him and

01:42:00.240 - 01:42:20.260

This is a copy." Because that wasn't the way a lawyer would really work, but he didn't know anything else he could do. So at any rate, when they sent the divorce with the story in it, then all they did was

01:42:20.360 - 01:42:50.220

they allowed him—they fired him. So then, and that was the way things would happen. So, and of course, because of illness and no support, I was on welfare for ADC, aid to dependent children.

01:42:51.920 - 01:43:23.580

And because, you see, the polio had made me so weak that I couldn't—I can only barely work for a short time. So I didn't have any money, I didn't have any family, and so on and so on. And so the caseworker learned that she had word that he had been killed in, I think,

01:43:23.680 - 01:43:42.000

Los Angeles. Well, we wrote for a death record. Well there wasn't any. And something else happened and something else happened and finally there was word that

01:43:43.640 - 01:44:22.900

he evidently was—I would call it—that he must have become a tramp pilot because he was always not in the—he wasn't ever truthful, you know. So at any rate, he must have been flying anything he could do. So he must have been flying something that was not maintained properly because he crashed

01:44:23.000 - 01:44:35.560

on takeoff in South America. I have forgotten the country. I would have to find it and look it up. But anyway, I don't remember the town, but it was South America.

01:44:37.260 - 01:44:52.340

And we sent for a death record then. How did you pull yourself up? Barely. One foot in front of the other.

01:44:53.000 - 01:45:19.520

You just survive. Because I was so weak, I wore a back brace for twenty years. And whenever something would happen, when everything was—there was nothing left, God would come through with a miracle.

01:45:22.140 - 01:45:45.420

I would have to tell you, there's no way to tell you the list of miracles because when everything else was exhausted, a miracle would appear. (Laughter) And you would just keep going?

01:45:45.600 - 01:45:58.600

Just keep going. Is there anything else about your life that you would like to tell us? Oh my goodness sakes. It would be, I can't think.

01:46:01.260 - 01:46:17.340

During that time, once you started pulling yourself up, how did you support those two little children? Well part work and welfare. Oh yes, and of course during that time, because there was a period when I couldn't work

01:46:17.340 - 01:46:47.580

at all, and then I got interested in community work and PTA work. And that was when I learned about community relationships and activities and so on. And I was in an inner city area that was called the Old North End of Kansas City, where the city started.

01:46:48.660 - 01:47:13.740

Kansas City started on the river bank in the Missouri River, and then it grew south from that river bank. And so when the immigrants came in waves, one wave of immigrants, German and so on, would move on to another area and another area and another area.

01:47:14.220 - 01:47:36.540

And the last group to emigrate was Italians. So it was called the Old Italian Colony. And there were three schools in the area within six blocks, two public schools and one Catholic school.

01:47:37.140 - 01:48:06.460

And the kids were in one of those schools, and the spirit of the area was dead. There was no pride in that area. at all. When I wasn't working, I went to PTA.

01:48:08.360 - 01:48:34.820

There were only five members of that unit. One of the women said to me, "Would you take the title as president just to keep the others won't you lose the unit." She says, "You don't have to do anything." And I says, "Well, all right," because I couldn't do it. I didn't have the strength to do

01:48:34.860 - 01:49:00.600

anything. But when I got the title and got interested, I got caught, I caught fire. And that's when I learned how to organize and how to be interested in how to promote. And oh, it was very exciting.

01:49:01.280 - 01:49:35.220

So those next few years I promoted the membership and researched the area. And finally, for the next, oh, about eight or nine years, I did the fiftieth anniversary for the elementary school, and there were 2,500 people who attended that event. So that's how it grew.

01:49:36.560 - 01:49:54.720

It was very exciting, very fulfilling time for me. Then, during that time, did you get a job that paid anything? Never could because of strength. strength was just minimal.

01:49:55.440 - 01:50:14.800

I couldn't do anything beyond just barely. What other volunteer work have you done? Well, what else? Have you done things with the church?

01:50:16.160 - 01:50:37.220

I didn't have the strength with the church. I attended weekly, but because of transportation and distance I could not be active in church beyond attending. But we did that.

01:50:39.000 - 01:50:55.260

We always did that. Then... Let me ask you here, how important do you think it is for parents like you to become involved with their children in school?

01:50:55.420 - 01:51:04.100

Oh, absolutely. There's nothing else. You have to be involved. You have to be involved.

01:51:04.780 - 01:51:26.660

It's very, very important. How do I elaborate? Because of speech it is hard to editorial. Well, then I will ask you about when you became interested in doing things with the WASP organization.

01:51:28.240 - 01:52:04.720

I could not do anything beyond going to the reunions. I have to say this, in the middle of the sixties, Teresa James, a WAF, one of the first twenty-five originals, I got a letter from her. She had written a whole lot of WAFs that we needed to renew the effort to become militarized.

01:52:06.440 - 01:52:31.820

And her home was Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and I was in Kansas City. And I answered her with all kinds of encouragement. And I am the only one who encouraged her. Nobody else says, "Well, there is nothing you can do."

01:52:31.820 - 01:53:19.980

But I said, "I can't do anything beyond give you moral support." So in that way I did—I've forgotten what—but at any rate, I did that with her. And she spent a lot of money for stamps and phone and so on. When we attended the reunion in 1969 in Palm Desert, California, at the night at the business

01:53:19.980 - 01:53:42.860

meeting, she took -- now let me see, what am I trying to remember to tell you about that? I know she had used her own money and she could promote, but she couldn't speak before a group.

01:53:45.940 - 01:54:11.220

She could not speak before a group. And so I had to take her story before the business meeting, and I had put a box to take up a collection to pay her for some of her phone and her stamps. And they responded to that.

01:54:12.020 - 01:54:50.260

But after telling her the story, then Dora Dougherty took over and led the militarization. So we call ourselves Alpha and Omega because she was the beginning and I'm the end. And the two of us were the only ones who were supporting the effort because nobody thought there was anything that you could do.

01:54:51.020 - 01:55:10.760

Even our historian, Marty, thought, "Well, there is nothing you can do." And now she became our historian. Why was it important to you that the WASP be given the veteran status they had earned? Because it was an unfinished story.

01:55:11.320 - 01:55:33.840

It had to be done just because. Because you can't just leave it alone. Because of my organization experience and so on, you have to finish what you start. You can't say it won't work.

01:55:35.260 - 01:56:10.220

Since your polio, I know you've had some other medical setbacks. Do you want to tell us about those and how you have gotten through them? Well, the doctor told me in the early 1980s I had hyperthyroidism. Hyperthyroid means all of the glands are accelerated.

01:56:11.700 - 01:56:34.500

And it causes you, if you're not treated, first you go crazy and then you die. It's that serious. And it takes – now they're finding it, but it was the most under-diagnosed thing there is at that time.

01:56:35.400 - 01:56:55.940

So they were treating me with everything else except hyperthyroidism. And then I got an old doctor and he knew exactly what was happening and he ordered it burned out with active iodine. So therefore I did not go crazy and I did not die.

01:56:58.280 - 01:57:21.840

But I gained forty pounds! And that was just about as bad. So then I had stopped smoking at the same time, 1984. And I had been a smoker of one pack a day.

01:57:23.700 - 01:57:55.220

And then in 1992, I was still working in an office, and in 1992 I had a stroke and lost my speech entirely. Now it was an odd loss because normally if you lose your speech you can't write either, but I could write.

01:57:57.340 - 01:58:20.240

And you lose your coordination. I didn't lose my coordination. I didn't lose my comprehension. I drove to the hospital for the—and I was in the hospital for a week.

01:58:21.100 - 01:58:57.380

And so at any rate, I could write. Now I did lose my perfect spelling. At any rate, gradually my speech returned and it is still recovering. As I say, I have to talk slow and it is difficult to think and speak at the same time.

01:58:58.040 - 01:59:27.180

But then when I retired because of the stroke, then my daughter was transferred from Kansas City to Mesa with Federal Express. She moved here in '93. Two years later, I joined her in her house, and that is where I am now, in her house.

01:59:34.180 - 02:00:18.900

I left Kansas City in May 1995. Two years later—now remember, I had stopped smoking fourteen years later. In 1997, I was diagnosed with cancer in the right lung, in the third stage, which means it had traveled from the middle and it had started up, which meant that kind—the doctor

02:00:18.920 - 02:00:49.880

told us later—the doctor learned that it's not the kind that we can heal. A third stage means it can't be cut out. And so then my daughter connected me with a support group who believes in alternatives. So it turned up.

02:00:51.240 - 02:01:19.800

When I started with alternatives and then the chemo and the radiation, all three, then after three years it's gone. It leaves scar tissue, but the cancer is gone. There's a residual problem, is because of the polio and because of the chemicals, now

02:01:19.800 - 02:01:43.920

I have three collapsed vertebraes, so I'm having very difficulty with holding my back up and walking, and I can't drive now, but I am walking and getting along. Another miracle. Oh, it's been a bunch of miracles.

02:01:45.520 - 02:02:10.140

Oh, yes. his when there was no other resource and he would come through he'd wait until everything else was exhausted. But you never got discouraged or did you? Well I I just I was always optimistic I don't know why I was never depressed I guess

02:02:10.200 - 02:02:34.240

that's another miracle because I would need to be optimism I couldn't deal with depression too, so he relieved me of depression. He just gave me optimism. Okay, we're going to change the tape. You are a miracle.

02:02:35.980 - 02:02:58.580

Is there anything that I have left out that you would like to tell us about? Oh my goodness, you see the difficulty is because I'm trying to think and I'm sure there's a whole bunch of things I wish I could. Can I look through here right quick and see if that will remind me something?

02:03:09.340 - 02:03:53.020

After being deserted, from 1947 when I was married until 1970, I did not fly. didn't see the airport. And then, in 1970, and I was working in a back brace three days a week, and I visited the airport in 19—well, probably '69.

02:03:55.540 - 02:04:18.020

And I saw an old instructor and he said, "Why don't you renew your ratings?" And I said, "How?" Because there is no way. And he says, "You visit the FAA office."

02:04:18.460 - 02:04:35.040

And I went just for fun, just to talk. And he said, "Why don't you renew your ratings?" He says, "I can't do that." He says, "You go to the bookstore and here is a primary manual for seventy-five cents

02:04:35.040 - 02:04:58.260

and there is an instructor's manual for a dollar and a quarter. You just read it." I went crazy. And then it was the time when the government was giving scholarships—meant money, not

02:04:58.360 - 02:05:25.240

grades—for inner city kids. And I was fifty years old, and that's when they—but there was no age limit. So they were giving these scholarships to inner-city kids to go to college. I was fifty years old and I wanted to renew my instructor's rating.

02:05:26.040 - 02:05:49.320

What? Well, you know, that's too long a story, but at any rate, I got the money to renew the water's parted. I got the money to renew my ratings and I instructed for five years between 1970 and

02:05:49.580 - 02:06:15.540

1975. Now right after I renewed in 1970, it was the most serious drop in economy. Everybody was being fired. Airline pilots were out of work.

02:06:17.640 - 02:06:52.300

And I got my new rating and there was no students. So then that's when the neighbor said, "You fly?" And I thought, "Ye gods, hasn't anybody told them yet?" And I had to do—I had to write about something for an armchair student, not one who was going

02:06:52.300 - 02:07:37.200

to fly, but who just wanted to know how it happens. And so I started writing a manuscript, which I have here, and it turns out to be a hundred pages typed, double-spaced, and I called it "God Intended Man to Fly." So it's actual instructions from first hour to private license with actual instruction,

02:07:38.320 - 02:08:27.060

but in a way that an armchair pilot could follow without ever being in the cockpit. And when I wrote to publishers, McGraw-Hill answered, and that audit editor said I have—now I had answers all the way from "I don't know it, I don't like it," until what she said. And she says, "I have read it all and now I can fly."

02:08:27.120 - 02:08:50.920

And she wanted to publish it. And right then was when that economy went bust. And she said, "With regret, I have to return your manuscript," because her titles had been cut off, cut in half.

02:08:52.200 - 02:09:26.220

And then I heard back and I said, "I'm trying again." And she tried three times for her bosses to accept my book. And then finally, that was the end of that. So now I sent a copy of it to Texas last year.

02:09:27.240 - 02:09:43.920

So they have it for the archives. Would you consider now trying to get it published? Well, I do not have the effort. If somebody can do it for me, but I am not able to do the writing and the effort.

02:09:45.720 - 02:09:57.120

I would not be able to research where to send it. I can just get around in the house. So there's no... I'll talk to you later.

02:09:59.820 - 02:10:22.560

So then I was by a miracle, was heard from an English author and put me in a book on a handbook. The name of it, do you have the book? "Wingtip to Wingtip"?

02:10:22.900 - 02:10:32.400

Well that's the third one. The first book is the— The handbook? Yes.

02:10:32.960 - 02:10:53.320

The Air Force—the U.S. Air Force handbook? Yes. This book, U.S. AAF Handbook, 1939 to 1945, it's an abbreviated encyclopedia of the Air Force.

02:10:53.400 - 02:11:12.740

He's an English author of an author of 26 books But he grew up in the shadow of American pilots in England and That's all he writes about

02:11:14.140 - 02:11:36.300

and so I'm here in three books and And then after, and at the same time he was working on the book on just one airplane, the Stearman. And I'm in that book, one picture in, one page in that book.

02:11:37.500 - 02:12:09.900

So and then in 1999, I met Marjorie Roberts, who has written "Wingtip to Wingtip." I was accepted to be one of the eighth wasps in her story. Her book is for junior high kids and younger, but there is neat stuff in it for grown-ups too.

02:12:11.300 - 02:12:23.180

She did a good job with the history and so on. So I am in three books. That's three miracles. And writing one myself is a miracle.

02:12:23.680 - 02:12:42.040

It's just been nothing but one miracle after another. Am I missing something? What should I know? Can you tell me about your children now?

02:12:42.700 - 02:13:30.700

Oh, my son went to college in Missouri and took criminology and was a police officer in Kansas City for a year and then came to Arizona and was accepted in Phoenix. And he has been a Phoenix police officer since I have forgotten the year, but in the 1970s, '78, '79, something like that.

02:13:31.900 - 02:14:03.940

So he is getting near retirement. He has one adopted daughter and two daughters of his own. A granddaughter has just recently been accepted and is working with Southwest Airlines as an attendant.

02:14:05.100 - 02:14:33.380

In fact, she started the day of the tragedy, September 17, in New York. At any rate, Southwest is keeping their people. She didn't lose her job. She's working for it.

02:14:33.660 - 02:15:00.740

My daughter has been a housewife. And then with difficulty in a marriage, then she had to support two babies, two little girls. So first she got, and accidentally, she got a job as a cocktail waitress and then became

02:15:00.800 - 02:15:30.260

a bartender because she could have the babies during the day and work at night. And then, accidentally, she became a real estate agent for a few years and then remarried. And then again, another problem. And then she started being a driver of Federal Express.

02:15:31.000 - 02:15:54.680

She wanted to be in the Air Force, but they wouldn't let her do what she wanted to do because they wouldn't allow girls to do anything yet except be in the office. And she wanted to be either a mechanic or she did art and she would like to have done drafting, but the Air Force would not let her do that.

02:15:55.780 - 02:16:17.340

So now she has been driving for FedEx for well over ten years. And so here we are. That is great. Let me ask you, what is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP program

02:16:17.440 - 02:16:51.820

that she put together? Well, you know, she was a very abrasive woman and she had the reputation at that time. But you have to realize she was an orphan in a poverty family. She did not finish third grade, and that is the only school she had.

02:16:54.520 - 02:17:25.380

She worked in the cotton fields and then became a beauty operator at age twelve. And at age twenty, she was touring Europe as a beauty operator and so on and so on. And she became one of the ten richest women in the country. She had her own cosmetic company.

02:17:26.600 - 02:17:54.320

And she did -- it took somebody like her to be abrasive and ambitious and taking no for -- taking no for answer. I mean, we owe her. We owe her.

02:17:56.080 - 02:18:13.900

She was a miracle. And if it hadn't been for her, we wouldn't have existed. What do you feel the legacy of the Wasp will be? You know, I have a problem with that name, with that word.

02:18:17.160 - 02:18:31.440

Legacy sounds so pretentious. Like I... How will the Wasp be remembered? - Well, then in that case, we is as I.

02:18:31.840 - 02:18:48.940

To me, it sounds, legacy to me is past. And so we are leaving our past. And so we hope them, we hope they will build on it

02:18:49.340 - 02:19:08.620

and they will go to greater glory for the Father in our Lord. Of all the things you have done, with the exception of your two children, disregarding that, what is the one thing that you are most proud of?

02:19:09.120 - 02:19:23.560

Of course the wasp. And why are you proud to be a wasp? Oh my, how can you say that? Because it's miraculous.

02:19:23.860 - 02:19:37.500

I mean, I was there. How did I happen to be there? How did I get accepted? How was I put on that track that made it happen?

02:19:38.800 - 02:19:55.540

There's no way to ponder it. I can't think how it happened. Because the older you get, the more it seems like a dream. Like, "Is that me?

02:19:56.220 - 02:20:09.980

Was I there?" (Laughs) Well, let me ask you, what do you think the WASP accomplished? Well, it's kind of the same thing as the Wright brothers.

02:20:13.460 - 02:20:36.760

They invented the airplane. So we proved that the airplane doesn't know a difference in the sex. The airplane doesn't know male or female. It just knows that you have to fly it the way it has to be flown.

02:20:37.940 - 02:21:04.040

And of course if you do that, then that's all there is. If you could say something, and I'm going to ask you to say something to your grandchildren or children in the future that you may never see that might encourage them to do, to succeed, What would you say to those children?

02:21:07.300 - 02:21:30.260

Words of encouragement that might encourage them to do something special. Golly, I don't know how to answer profound things. Just from your heart. Just obey the Lord.

02:21:30.880 - 02:21:59.300

First of all, you have to know him, because without knowledge, the rest is vain imagination. If you don't have knowledge, you're not authentic. And then you have to understand what obedience means. If you don't, now that means what he says.

02:22:00.200 - 02:22:23.820

It's not selective. You can't, "I'll read this part and I won't do that part." So you have to learn obedience and you have to learn what honor is. And if you can do that, then it will take a lifetime to understand that.

02:22:26.700 - 02:22:47.700

And with that in mind, do you feel then that they too could succeed? Say again? If they observed those things, do you think they too could succeed? They cannot help if they obey and honor.

02:22:50.540 - 02:23:13.600

You have to succeed. It cannot fail. Is there anything else that you would like to say? Steele Well again, it is too difficult to think

02:23:13.600 - 02:23:34.660

and speak at the same time. I appreciate that. I wish it had happened three years ago, then I could have talked. As you know, this is recording history.

02:23:36.420 - 02:23:57.480

Why do you think that you agreed to record your history? Why is the history of the WASP important? Any history is necessary. Oh yes, I finally learned because I did not know my family history.

02:23:59.360 - 02:24:23.540

It's only been in the last twenty years that I've learned how history is important. Without knowledge of history, you're not authentic. You're creating yourself. You are a, you're vain.

02:24:24.660 - 02:24:55.940

You believe in yourself. Our country was founded on the belief in God. This is the only country that was created under God. All other countries were man-made, and those founders learned common knowledge.

02:24:56.960 - 02:25:32.060

History, Blackstone's law, government, they studied those things, and they had common knowledge and that's how they were able to found our country and their documents. And so that's the same thing for every person from all time. You can't change God's system.

02:25:32.440 - 02:25:45.240

He created the system and either you follow it or you fail. You have not failed. God bless you. Thank you.

02:25:45.730 - 02:25:51.220

Thank you. Thank you so much. That was an awesome quote at the end there. We need to put that on a shirt.

02:25:52.000 - 02:26:01.540

What? You can't change God's system. He created it, you either follow it or you fail. That's what you just said.

02:26:02.440 - 02:26:16.320

- Is that what I said? - Yes. I'm putting that on a shirt. We'll sell them at the next Washington Convention. That's a great quote. I don't think anybody's ever said that.

02:26:16.400 - 02:26:26.020

Do you have anything you want to ask her, Nance? No, I think she's... - You think she's said it? - Yeah, I think she's said it. That last one was my favorite.

02:26:26.740 - 02:26:39.220

Oh, goodness. That was... that was... that was awesome. You're awesome. You are awesome. I want... I'm going to turn off the big light.

02:26:39.840 - 02:26:48.660

Okay. I want to pay you... No. No. I want to take you to dinner. No. No.

02:26:48.940 - 02:26:55.380

Absolutely. At a historic place. No. Why? You-

02:26:55.460 - 02:26:55.760

What? What?