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I really had to stretch. I kept thinking, please, I just need to be 5'2 1/2" and 5'2 1/4". Well, I was 5'4", but that was just barely in place. You were in good height. But I've stayed pretty much that way, whereas I'm a little shrunk. I know Sister Teresa that we interviewed, who's the cloistered Carmelite nun in the French Angeli.

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She is really short, because she worked in the gardens for years. I'm going to roll. I'm going to roll. Okay. And you're going to forget I'm back here.

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All right. We won't even pay attention to you. Okay. Go ahead. I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Fran Sargent. She was a WASC Class 43-4. We're in her home in Miami, Florida.

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Today is the 7th of May, 2003. The videographer is Nancy Parrish. Okay, Fran, if you will give us your full name and when and where you were born. It's Frances Rohr Sargent, and I was born in Little Rock, Arkansas. And lived there until I was about in high school.

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Okay. Do you want to tell us when you were born, or do you want to skip? Well, I guess it doesn't matter. Okay. You know, I really don't worry about age. I just want to be doing what I'm doing.

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Right. Fran, tell me about your mother. What was your mother like? Well, she was a housewife, and she, you know, she was busy. She had help, and my grandmother lived with us a lot of times, too. And my father was with the railroad, so he could have passes for my grandmother

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to go see her family and her sisters and brothers. And lots of times I went with her in the summer. What did your dad do on the railroad? He was a district passenger agent for the Chicago Rock Island Pacific Railroad.

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And would he be gone for long trips? He would be gone sometimes for a week on the trips that he would go. Sometimes my mother would go with him when they would have groups, like a travel agent sometimes goes with a group, you know.

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Did you have siblings? I had one brother, yes. Is he older or younger? He's younger than I am, and then he's died now.

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And tell me about your other grandparents. Well, my grandmother was my father's mother, and that's the only one that was living when I knew them. I had another grandfather.

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I barely remember him, but I'm not really--I was too young when he died. When you were born, where did you live? Did you live in the town? Yes, in Little Rock, Arkansas, right in Little Rock, Arkansas.

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And we had a house, and it was on kind of a hill. Of course, Little Rock has a lot of hills. So it was on the hill there, and you could see down to the river between Little Rock and North Little Rock there.

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So it was kind of high. What period of time would your grandmother stay with you before she would go and stay with someone else? Well, there wasn't any special schedule.

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She'd just go whenever it seemed like appropriate, I guess. And it worked out nice. She had a lot of family, and lots of times I'd go with her if she was going in the summer, or sometimes I would,

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and that worked out nice too. When you would go with her in the summer, to whose home would you go? Well, to her sister's or her brother's. One lived in Fort Worth.

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She went to Fort Worth a lot because it was close to Little Rock, closer to Little Rock. It went to Oakland, California. She had a sister there, and two sisters in California.

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And her son, my father's brother, was in North Carolina, Charlotte, North Carolina. So we went there. What is your most memorable summer?

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Oh, I don't know. They're all wonderful, besides doing those with my grandmother. I guess my mother's sister and her family, she had several children, and my brother, we would go to Long Beach in the summer.

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A couple times we'd go in the summer. And those were always special times, and I had a really good time there. But when I went to Fort Worth, I always had a great time because my aunt was very interested in different things.

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They had a lovely home, and I had a good time in the library. They had wonderful things in the library. One year they had me put the name tags, there are name tags in all the books in the library.

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And one time I did all--everybody used to smoke, you know, and so everybody--I had to count all of the ashtrays. I mean, this is silly things. But we went to the Centennial.

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My uncle, my great uncle, he was the vice president of Fort Worth Star Telegram. And so he had a lot of activities that he was involved with. When they had a centennial there, so we went to that. Will Rogers was there, and Sally Rand, I think, was there.

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Do you remember seeing them? Yeah, sure. And they'd have barbecues, and when I'd go there, we'd have-- they'd always have a party just for me with other young people.

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So those were always fun times. Did you go to the Sally Rand to watch her perform? Oh, yeah. It was beautiful.

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You know, it wasn't like now. People have things they don't have much--but the fans are beautiful. And you never saw her body that was known, and I think she had a stocking type of things under--I don't know.

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I just thought it was beautiful. Your aunt who had the library, what was her connection? That was my grandmother's sister. Okay.

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And did that have an influence on you, being in a home with a big library? Did you study those books or read a lot? Well, I was younger then, but it was always very interesting. My aunt had--my mother's sister, she lived in Little Rock, too,

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so I saw her more, but she was younger and her children were younger. But we always had a good time. She was always a lot of influence, and they had a big house in Little Rock, and I always liked that because it had these secret compartments

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that you could go from the first floor to the second floor, and I always thought that was kind of funny. And she liked music and she liked to sing, and we always had a good time there. When we'd go to California, we'd have a great time to go there on Long Beach.

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When you would be away from home, you and your brother and your dad be on the road, what did your mother do? Did she belong to a lot of organizations? Well, she was--she worked with Episcopal Church and some and helped with that,

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and she was--my father was a shriner, and they had an Eastern Star. And she liked to play bridge, and my father did, too. So they would have parties, lots of parties, and they were in a country club there in Little Rock,

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and they had a lake there that they could go swimming in and dances and things. Fran, what was Christmas like when you were growing up? Oh, yeah, I was--I had a--it wasn't really an uncle, but I called him Uncle Charles, and his wife was Annie Nell.

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My name was really Nell Francis Rohr, but I didn't like the Nell so much. Later on, I just decided I wouldn't be Nell anymore. They had a lot of songs then called Nelly--about Nelly, and I didn't like the term Nelly, you know.

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But anyway, I loved her. She was great, but her husband would be--it's a Santa Claus for us. I didn't know that at first, but--and they always had a big Christmas Eve party or get-together with the families, and so that was always--I always remembered that.

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And they'd have eggnog, and they'd always make the homemade eggnog and fruit cake--everything was homemade--all sorts of candies and gelatin candy. You don't see that too much anymore. But--and we just--and it was cool there, so all these things tasted good--turkey.

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So we always had a big Christmas at the house with as much of the family that could get there. And in your own home, did you have a Christmas tree? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And did you attend--did the Episcopal Church have pageants

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or Christmas services that the family attended, do you recall? Well, you know, traveling wasn't as much then to do that, but then the church was downtown in Little Rock, and we just didn't do that many traveling in the car.

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We just stayed at home as far as--yeah. And Christmas Day, Christmas dinner, where would that usually be? Oh, there at our house. We always had it as long--all the time we always had it at our house. We didn't go somewhere else.

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Do you remember your grandmother? Did she help do the cooking? Oh, yeah. She was a wonderful cook, and she helped a lot. She liked to cook, and she made lots of good things. What did you learn from your grandmother?

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Well, I guess she just was part of my life, you know. When she was home, well, sometimes she'd take me to a program or a play or something like that, more than my mother did, you know, special things. Did she teach you to cook or to sew?

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Oh, yes, she did. She did a lot of needlework. Oh, and my aunt, her sister also, they all got me needlepoint things to do, and I did that, and they showed me how to knit, and I never did get tatting. I didn't do tatting, but that was beautiful.

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I have many things that she did, and they would fix handkerchiefs. People used handkerchiefs a lot then. They didn't have Kleenex. And she'd have all this lace around. She would put different trimmings on these handkerchiefs. They were gorgeous. You would never use them to blow your nose on.

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Where did you begin school? Well, right there in Little Rock in Pulaski Grammar School, called Pulaski Heights Grammar School. And then the junior high school was there. And then when I got into high school, they had built a new high school in Little Rock

00:13:01.000 - 00:13:23.000

that was the pride of the whole United States. It was a gorgeous high school, and I went there for one year. They had this own band studio up on the top, and they had an apartment that girls could take housekeeping and take care of the apartment,

00:13:23.000 - 00:13:50.000

just like it was theirs, you know. And the building was just great. And this is the one that later on they had the riot there because the blacks were not there. And the same people that were in my junior high school were the ones that were at the high school at that time.

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And when they had that movie about it, the same people's names were in the movie. And I remembered them, that they had been there in junior high school. But we had moved from Little Rock at that time, of course, and had gone to Hot Springs. My father was transferred to Hot Springs, Arkansas, which was a very nice place to live, too.

00:14:14.000 - 00:14:30.000

They had a lot of horse racing there in the springs. It was a very beautiful place. It still is. Let me go back and ask you about elementary school. Do you recall any of your teachers?

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Well, I used to remember them, but now I don't. I've been there so long ago that you don't talk to other people that had the same teachers, so I don't remember them. I remember them, kind of, but not as their names. How did you get to school?

00:14:49.000 - 00:15:03.000

We just walked. And then the junior high was in the same area? It was in the same area. It was about six blocks or something. Do you remember any teachers there that might have had an influence on you?

00:15:03.000 - 00:15:31.000

Well, I think they always, always, even if I didn't remember them all these years, I can remember being very influenced by them. Right. When you went to high school, could you still walk? No. I don't really know how I got to high school. In high school, what did you enjoy? What subject?

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Well, I didn't like Latin, that's for sure. And at that time, I think I had three years of Latin, and it didn't help me a bit. In high school, did you have extracurricular activities? Not really. I had music lessons, and when I was younger, I had dancing, ballet, and things like that.

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And then I had piano lessons for about seven years. Were you into sports at all? Not really, no. Football, the football teams, I went to them. I liked the football teams, but I didn't try to participate in them.

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Were you into speech or plays? No. Drama? No. What kind of student were you? I was a pretty good student. I got honor roll, you know, most of the time.

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Were your mom and dad strict as far as your grades? I don't remember them being strict at all. I liked to play the piano. I wasn't very good, but I enjoyed it. So that was not a problem.

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And I don't know. If my children had done what I did, I would have been frightened. But they never did say anything about what I did. Tell me some of the things that you did. I went down below my house. It went down, and you could see way over to the river.

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It was really high. But my friend and I, a neighbor, we'd go down there, down that big hill, and up this other place where it was a rock quarry. I don't know why we ever went there, but if my kids had done that,

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I would have had a heart attack. My aunt that lived in Little Rock, they had horses, riding horses on their farm. So when I could, we'd go over there and go riding. She had ones that would do, you know, kind of show horses.

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They would jump up. It was, you know, western type of riding. And they had cows there, a herd of cows, they were milking. And so I'd go with them, and we were in the summertime. I'd go on the horses with them to get the cows up out of the pastures there.

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I would like to swim. I did a lot of swimming. At this rock quarry, would you explore? Yeah, it was just really interesting, you know. I remember, it's strange, I don't think my family even knew I did it.

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I'm not sure, but sometimes I wonder. And when I'd go back on the horse by myself, I would just go miles. Because there were paths around the fields and the creeks and all of that, you could just go everywhere.

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And I wouldn't have let my children go there all by themselves. But I didn't think about it, and neither did they. They were busy doing something else. They were always at home, you know.

00:19:03.000 - 00:19:27.000

But in the summer, when we stayed home at their house in the summer, they were canning all the fruits and the vegetables and even the meat. They were canning it for the winter. So in the winter, we had a big basement, so we always had lots of food in the basement.

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My father made some beer there, and they had wine there sometimes. Over the time that we lived there, they would do all these things. Lots of people did it then. When your dad was transferred, what grade were you in?

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When we went to Hot Springs, I went to Hot Springs as a junior. And then the next year we went to Atlanta. So my high school was kind of broken up in three times, which is kind of bad in high school, you know.

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But then we moved to Atlanta. He was transferred to Atlanta. And the high school there, I was there for a year. What was your social life like?

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Well, in Atlanta, it wasn't very good because I didn't know anybody. And going in as a senior, and the school was about 30 miles away. I had to go on a streetcar down to Atlanta and then over to the high school, which was about another 15 miles away on the trolley.

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What was the name of that school? It was Girls High School. Then they just had Girls High School and Boys High School. The Boys High School, you know, I could have almost walked there.

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But I had to go to the girls. They had a commercial high school, but it wasn't able to go to college from there. It was more for--it didn't have the academics to get you to college. When you were a senior, did you know what you wanted to do?

00:21:11.000 - 00:21:20.000

No. For example, did you-- Oh, I kind of thought I'd be a dietitian. When I got to Atlanta, they had a wonderful--when I went to Atlanta,

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they had a wonderful homemade department. I really enjoyed that, and we could make dinners for our family and tell them about it, and we could do them there. They had some testing with the rats that you could feed them

00:21:41.000 - 00:21:54.000

and see how they did with certain things. That was kind of interesting. I thought dietitian would be a good thing. When you were a senior, did you know that you would be going on to college?

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Yes. I just kind of planned it. It just kind of happened. How did you select the college you went to?

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Well, the University of Georgia was not too far from Atlanta, and I could go on the railroad up to there. Things didn't go in the car so much as you did the railroad, so I could go there just fine, and that's what I did.

00:22:20.000 - 00:22:32.000

When you were a senior, did you have a prom? No, I don't think so. We had a big graduation, and we got dressed up and everything. It was just all girls, and they didn't have--

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How large was your graduating class about? Where we had it was in Fox Theater right downtown in Atlanta, and it was quite an occasion. We were all dressed up in white dresses and had big rose bouquets,

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and there was a big theater there, Fox Theater. But that's all I remember of that. Okay. And then that summer, what did you do before going to college?

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Well, one summer, maybe I did-- I went up to my uncles in North Carolina, in Charlotte, and they gave me a job in their office at the business that he had. He had a manufacturing company there,

00:23:25.000 - 00:23:43.000

and so I answered the phones and kept track of the things that came there. So that was kind of fun too, yeah, and so we did that. When you went to the University of Georgia, where did you live? Still live at home?

00:23:43.000 - 00:23:52.000

No, no. Oh, no. No, no. It was lived in a dormitory. At that time, the first two years was girls.

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You were on a different campus than where the rest of the students were, and the instructors came to the campus for us. They've changed that now, but of course at that time-- In high school, I just thought it was terrible

00:24:06.000 - 00:24:23.000

that we didn't have high school football. So we got to the University of Georgia, and they had a wonderful football team. So we got to go to all this, and my roommates, one of them was in Columbus, Georgia,

00:24:23.000 - 00:24:44.000

so we got to go to some of the Athens games as well as Atlanta. Georgia Tech was their rival. We always had a good time with the football. I love that.

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When we got into high school, of course, when we went to the college, we always had to have phys ed, and I didn't know how to play tennis, so I took tennis as one of the things. One of them was horseback riding.

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Another semester I did horseback riding. Of course, it was English saddle, and of course the first thing I did was fall out of the saddle. I thought I knew how to play horseback riding.

00:25:10.000 - 00:25:22.000

Anyway, that was funny. It didn't hurt me, but I fell off of the saddle immediately. The University of Georgia, was that a state-supported school? Yes.

00:25:22.000 - 00:25:40.000

How close were the girls' campus to the boys' campus? On the other campus, the girls were there too, but just the juniors and seniors. From our campus to there, it was probably a couple of miles.

00:25:40.000 - 00:25:51.000

You'd have to take the bus to get over there. So when you finished the two years at the all-girl campus-- Then you'd go to the other campus, right. So did you physically move then?

00:25:51.000 - 00:26:02.000

Yes, you did. I stopped at two years. I just went two years there. But in the meantime, I went over there.

00:26:02.000 - 00:26:15.000

They had a wonderful chapel, and they still do. We could go to downtown any time we wanted to, but our classes were not there. But anyway, I had a chance.

00:26:15.000 - 00:26:29.000

My aunt that lived in Little Rock, she wanted me to have argan in that chapel. So she arranged for me to use class lessons there. So I thought that was really neat.

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I wasn't very good at it, but that was a really opportunity to do something like that. Did you play for services of any kind? Oh, no, I wasn't.

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I never did anything. But I decided I wasn't going to go to-- I didn't want to teach by any sure, and I didn't want to be a nurse.

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I decided, well, I was just going to do business. But of course then you could only be a secretary or receptionist, or you didn't have many opportunities for that. But anyway, I took shorthand and typing

00:27:05.000 - 00:27:22.000

at the commercial business school there while I was finishing up the second year there. So then when I finished, I went for a job in Atlanta then. And who did you work for?

00:27:22.000 - 00:27:37.000

Fireman's Fund Insurance Company. Have you ever heard of that? And it has a district office there. And so first I was just in the reinsurance department,

00:27:37.000 - 00:27:53.000

and then one of the men went into World War II there. They were pulled in, and so they gave me his job because I'd had accounting in the University of Georgia. And so I had three states.

00:27:53.000 - 00:28:07.000

One of them was Texas. I liked Texas because I'd been out so much of the time in Texas. And so I had Texas and several other states that I had to audit the accounts

00:28:07.000 - 00:28:17.000

for the agents that were in those states. That was interesting. Was your family disappointed that you didn't go on and finish all four years?

00:28:17.000 - 00:28:26.000

I don't think so. A lot of women didn't have four years at that time. In the meantime, what was your brother doing? Well, he was about seven years younger than me,

00:28:26.000 - 00:28:37.000

so he was still in high school. And then later on, when he was 17, he wanted to go in the Navy, and so he did go in the Navy.

00:28:37.000 - 00:28:47.000

My parents had to sign to let him go in because he was only 17 at that time. When you were working for the insurance company, were you living at home then?

00:28:47.000 - 00:28:56.000

Yes, I just lived at home. Okay. Do you recall where you were and what you thought about when you heard about Pearl Harbor?

00:28:56.000 - 00:29:15.000

Well, in the meantime, after I was at Farman's Insurance Company, I had gotten a pilot's license, and then I had gotten a job at the Navy base in Atlanta.

00:29:15.000 - 00:29:26.000

They had a Navy base there, and they needed people that had some background in aviation. And I had just gotten my private license, and I heard about this job.

00:29:26.000 - 00:29:47.000

And so they didn't have the waves in, so they had opportunities for women with aviation. And so I applied and got a job there. It was the Instrument Flight Instructor School in Atlanta.

00:29:47.000 - 00:29:58.000

Let me go back. And so--but then, while I was there, okay, they had the--Pearl Harbor happened, and I was at the Navy base already.

00:29:58.000 - 00:30:15.000

They had already started to prepare for war, but they hadn't had that, but Pearl Harbor came there. Let me ask you, when you first saw an airplane or when you first got the desire that you wanted to learn to fly--

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I never felt that. I never even thought it just happened. I'd always watch every airplane that had come over, you know, but everybody did that, you know.

00:30:25.000 - 00:30:40.000

And my father took me to Atlanta Airport, and we would watch the planes come in and go back. You know, we'd do that sometimes just to see them. And so I never thought about it.

00:30:40.000 - 00:30:53.000

Women didn't--I didn't even know anything about women being flying, you know. I didn't even think about that. I just knew me, Earhart, did it, but that was just one person, you know. That was very unusual.

00:30:53.000 - 00:31:04.000

So how did you start flying? Well, I was going to go to Birmingham, Alabama, with a friend who sees some people-- [phone ringing]

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Just let that go. And-- [phone ringing] Anyway, I went with a friend to Birmingham,

00:31:16.000 - 00:31:28.000

and I said, "Well, let's take the plane and go over there instead of the railroad," you know, because I'd always been on the railroad and everything. And so we did. We went to Birmingham, which wasn't very far from Atlanta,

00:31:28.000 - 00:31:39.000

but then it was a real trip, you know. And so we got there, and I said, "That was so much fun. Let's go back." Then you could just go to the airport and pick a ticket, you know.

00:31:39.000 - 00:31:50.000

And I said, "Let's just go back on the airplane." So we did. And when I got there, I said, "I have to learn to fly." And so the Delta was there.

00:31:50.000 - 00:32:10.000

You know, they were open. They were the main thing at the airport there. And so I got a Delta pilot that they weren't supposed to do teaching, but he did. He lived near the airport, and I would go over there and get my license.

00:32:10.000 - 00:32:27.000

So I worked there until I--I mean, I went with him until I got my pilot's license. What did your mom and dad say when you told them? They never did say anything. They were just kind of--I guess they probably were concerned.

00:32:27.000 - 00:32:37.000

My father thought it was great, you know, but I don't know whether my mother did or not. She never did say anything about it. What was the first airplane you started learning to fly?

00:32:37.000 - 00:32:48.000

A Ronca Chief. It was the first two by each side. It wasn't back like the Pipers were. They were front seat and the back seat, but this was both sides.

00:32:48.000 - 00:33:05.000

I liked that. Did the airplane belong to the Navy, to the Delta pilot? No, no, we just rented it. And so then his wife and I both got a job at the Navy base at the same time.

00:33:05.000 - 00:33:22.000

In the meantime, had Pearl Harbor happened yet? No, it still hadn't happened yet. But after I got my license, we would go over to the Bell Aircraft, which was in Marietta at that time, and we would--Civil Air Patrol.

00:33:22.000 - 00:33:36.000

So we would use it for Civil Air Patrol mission practice, you know. But I never thought about it. That is an occupation. It just was something we did.

00:33:36.000 - 00:33:52.000

When you were learning to fly, did you know any other girls? Were any other girls that you knew? Well, I didn't really know at the time, but there were two ladies there, and they became WASPs too in the first class.

00:33:52.000 - 00:34:11.000

But I didn't really know them, but they wanted somebody to share a plane. So the two of them and myself and a man, we bought this Ronca Chief. So that's what we used. And then they went in the WASP, and then I went in the WASP.

00:34:11.000 - 00:34:27.000

Do you recall anything unusual that happened during the time you were learning to fly? No, I just enjoyed it. I really just--I just liked it. Were you ever afraid?

00:34:27.000 - 00:34:47.000

I don't remember actually being afraid. I think, you know, you just do it because you like to do it, and it didn't seem to be a problem. Did you ever take your mom or dad up? I finally did my mother later on, but she didn't like it.

00:34:47.000 - 00:35:09.000

But it was a really nice trip, but she just--it was too long for her, you know. Okay, over at this Navy base, what job did you get? Well, to begin with, we went to a training school that was like an instrument school to do the instrument training for the instrument flight instructors.

00:35:09.000 - 00:35:28.000

They were trying to get to be instructors for instruments. And so we learned the link trainers. They had lots of link trainers. And so they needed the men to go overseas, so they trained us to do the pilots and the simulators.

00:35:28.000 - 00:35:55.000

And so we did it for a whole month, just all the--every day, all day long. And this was very unusual for women to do something like this, and we wondered how the men were going to be, but everybody just accepted us. And the only problem was in Atlanta, it was a very southern country, you know, city,

00:35:55.000 - 00:36:17.000

and they didn't think people should be in--women should be in slacks. And so if we'd go to town after work, we had to go in town to get back home. People didn't like it in our slacks. Other than that, I think that was the only problem we had.

00:36:17.000 - 00:36:32.000

These instructors, were they all civilians that you were teaching to instruct? No, no, no, no. They were in the Navy. They already had their Navy--they were Navy pilots already. Oh, yeah.

00:36:32.000 - 00:36:47.000

Had they not gone through instrument school? Well, not at that time--not to be an instructor, because they were going to--had to go back to the bases for instructing. They didn't do the instructing at the Navy base where we were.

00:36:47.000 - 00:36:57.000

They were just getting the background. Do you know of any of your students who might have been-- done outstanding things during the war? No, we had so many of them.

00:36:57.000 - 00:37:15.000

After we did our training, and then the next group of women came in, and we trained them. I can't believe how we did this so fast. But anyway, and then that group trained the next women that were WAVES.

00:37:15.000 - 00:37:33.000

And then they sent them to those WAVES that they trained to the different bases for primary training. And then we did all the flight instructor students coming in. And then there was about 50 of us all together.

00:37:33.000 - 00:37:58.000

And why were they using women? Well, they needed the men for the extra--for the regular war activities. How did you hear about a training program for women military pilots? Well, this group that was in the Navy base, they were all pilots, of course,

00:37:58.000 - 00:38:19.000

and especially the first--they were all pilots. And so some of them--well, we just--you know, you just heard about it because Jackie Cochran was coming to Atlanta, and there was about six of us in my class that went to apply

00:38:19.000 - 00:38:32.000

when she was there, and we all went to Sweetwater together, actually at the same time. Did you actually meet her at that time? I don't remember whether we did or somebody else interviewed us.

00:38:32.000 - 00:38:48.000

The only thing I remember is that there was six of us in our class that were accepted, and we went over to Robin--the one in Macon. Warner Robins. Warner Robins for our physical.

00:38:48.000 - 00:39:05.000

Of course, the men didn't know what to do with us. Six women coming in there to get our physical for, you know, like a flight check ride, flight medical. And we were all kind of embarrassed, them as well as us.

00:39:05.000 - 00:39:17.000

But anyway, it was very good. It worked out good. Fran, what were your expectations? What did you think of this program, what you would be doing if you passed?

00:39:17.000 - 00:39:35.000

You know what, I'm sorry, but I just didn't really think about that, I guess. It just was something that just happened, and I don't know. Through my life, I think I just had these things happen. I think I have a lot of guardian angels that God gave me,

00:39:35.000 - 00:39:49.000

and it just kind of got me in the right track. I don't know how it happened. It wasn't something I planned or thought about. At that time, did you think you would be going into the military?

00:39:49.000 - 00:40:03.000

I hadn't thought about that either. What did your mom and dad say about this? I can't remember them ever saying much about it. I think that they--I think probably my mother was--

00:40:03.000 - 00:40:20.000

maybe she didn't like it, but she never said anything about it. But when I went, you know, and the families didn't seem to--it just happened. How did you get from Atlanta to Sweetwater? On the railroad, yeah.

00:40:20.000 - 00:40:29.000

Had you ever been to Texas before? Oh, yeah, I'd been to Texas a lot since, right. She's got to change the tape. Okay.

00:40:29.000 - 00:40:39.000

Yeah! Oh, you're good. Six of you. Did you all go in for the interview? That's amazing, yeah.

00:40:39.000 - 00:40:53.000

So all six of you went on the train together? I think we did, yeah. It was kind of nice to have a group together. I guess it just--we went to the hotel there.

00:40:53.000 - 00:41:08.000

We had somebody together, so we didn't think about it too much. You know, really, things weren't too organized. It's not that they weren't organized, but they were just beginning to do the things in Sweetwater

00:41:08.000 - 00:41:27.000

because we were the first ones in Sweetwater, you know. And so they just still had the men still there, and so they were just feeling their ways around there, and we did too. We just kind of took whatever happened that they thought was the best.

00:41:27.000 - 00:41:48.000

As a matter of fact, did some of your class, half your class, report to Houston? Yes, some of them went to Houston, but all the ones that were in Atlanta, I think, went to Sweetwater. When you got to Sweetwater, what was your impression of the field and the facilities?

00:41:48.000 - 00:42:03.000

Well, I think it was just great. The picture over there shows what I-- I don't know if you saw the one that was right there on the wall. It shows me in all of this outfit with all--it was cold, you know,

00:42:03.000 - 00:42:26.000

and all of this fur stuff on, and right on the top of this PT-19, I thought I was in heaven, you know. Here I was in this big airplane going to fly, and I'm smiling up a storm, you know. And the man that did that sketch, I just thought it was remarkable.

00:42:26.000 - 00:42:40.000

I said, "Okay, that just shows exactly how I felt," but I wouldn't have told anybody that. I wouldn't have even thought about it until I saw that picture. When you arrived at Avenger, who was there?

00:42:40.000 - 00:42:59.000

Well, we had, I think, the three barracks we had, row of barracks, and the next row to the ones I was in were men, and they were still in that other section. They hadn't brought the people from Houston back up there.

00:42:59.000 - 00:43:15.000

And who were those men? They were people that were being trained that were English pilots, to be English pilots, and we were training them here in the United States. So they were there when you got there?

00:43:15.000 - 00:43:38.000

They were already there, and they were using the planes that we used then. As far as I know, we all had the--but we never did see them, really, because our schedules weren't together, you know. As far as the eating facilities, did you eat at the same place they ate?

00:43:38.000 - 00:43:56.000

I don't remember seeing any of the guys there. I know that they were there, but I just don't guess we were on the same track as they were. Tell me about where you ate. Well, there was just a dining room, and you'd just go in and pick up what you wanted.

00:43:56.000 - 00:44:14.000

How was the food? I guess it was all right. I never did have any problem with it. Tell me about your bays and your bay mates. We had six people in one room, and then there was a bathroom,

00:44:14.000 - 00:44:40.000

and then there's another six on the next bay. So there were 12 of us that shared one bath, bath facilities, and six of us were in each bay. Then there were a series of these sections down on three different sections we had. Tell me about some of your bay mates.

00:44:40.000 - 00:44:58.000

Well, they were--two of them, I guess all of them were from Florida. Yeah, I think four of them were from Florida. Maybe all of them except me was from Florida. Were you assigned?

00:44:58.000 - 00:45:14.000

Yes, they just assigned. Then what was your schedule like? Well, they had us in sections. Some of us had--in the mornings we would go to ground school,

00:45:14.000 - 00:45:31.000

and in the afternoon we would fly, and then we would switch around. So this is the way it was. The whole group together was two groups, and we'd have physical education. We'd have ground school, all of us,

00:45:31.000 - 00:45:47.000

but it shifted every other day or every time, whatever section we were doing. So we weren't all there together all the time. What was ground school like? Well, it was like a basic ground school.

00:45:47.000 - 00:46:09.000

We started from--like we were from scratch, but everybody had background already. They had to have--at that time we had to have two years of college and 100 hours--I think 200 hours of flying. Well, I didn't have the flying, but I did have the simulator for the link trainer,

00:46:09.000 - 00:46:23.000

so I guess that kind of got me into the thing. So that worked out very good. And I had the two years of college, so that worked out just fine. And who were your instructors?

00:46:23.000 - 00:46:38.000

Were they Air Force people? I think they were just civilian pilots that probably were already there with the boys, the other cadets, other cadets. And what was your first aircraft to fly?

00:46:38.000 - 00:46:53.000

A PT-19, which is open cockpit. It's pretty cold. In February--it was February when we started, so it was pretty cold there. But we didn't seem to--we had that warm clothes that we had,

00:46:53.000 - 00:47:08.000

so we didn't seem to have a problem. And I just loved flying, and I just thought that was wonderful. Was your instructor kind? Yeah, I thought he was great.

00:47:08.000 - 00:47:33.000

He was just--I think the fact that I'd had the training in the simulators and teaching that in the weather part of the instruments had made it easier for the transition to another plane like that. And even though it seemed big to me, it really wasn't that big

00:47:33.000 - 00:47:50.000

compared to what I'd been doing, you know. But some of them had been flying other larger planes, but I hadn't had anything big at all. What was the biggest adjustment you had to make to live with that many girls?

00:47:50.000 - 00:48:09.000

Oh, I don't know. We had a nice group, and everybody just seemed to get along good. One of the ladies had a convertible, and so if we ever had a day off, she would take us over to have something to go somewhere to dinner or lunch or something.

00:48:09.000 - 00:48:21.000

And we just had a nice group there. Do you recall your solo flight? No. Anything unusual happen during your primary training?

00:48:21.000 - 00:48:32.000

No. I just flew and learned every minute. When you would go to lunch somewhere, where would you go? Do you recall?

00:48:32.000 - 00:48:43.000

No. There were a couple places that we couldn't go. I guess they were bars or something, and we couldn't go to those. But I liked Mexican food, and of course most of the restaurants had Mexican food,

00:48:43.000 - 00:49:04.000

and so we liked that. And so we would go to--we had the people in Sweetwater had us for a barbecue several times, and they would have barbecue, and there was a lake nearby there. Lots of different things that we would do on a Sunday if we didn't have to fly,

00:49:04.000 - 00:49:18.000

you know, if we didn't have a flight schedule. And mostly we didn't have it on Sundays. Do you recall any of the names of people in Sweetwater? No, I don't.

00:49:18.000 - 00:49:39.000

They were very good, and the ranchers had this barbecue for us. But I think it was because when we were flying and we'd see all these buffaloes, we'd go and kind of fly around them and make them move around, and I'm sure the ranchers didn't like that.

00:49:39.000 - 00:49:54.000

And so I think that they had this barbecue to let us know that they were friendly and they didn't want us to do that. Maybe they don't even remember that, but I always thought that was kind of nice for them to do that for us.

00:49:54.000 - 00:50:11.000

Do you think that changed your flying attitude? Probably. Do you recall Miss Cochran coming to Avenger while you were there? Yes, but I didn't have that much contact with her, you know.

00:50:11.000 - 00:50:36.000

But I guess other people did, but I just don't remember those things too much. When you finished primary training, then what airplane did you fly? Then we did the BT-13 and BT--what is it? No, 15 and 13, BT-13 and BT-15.

00:50:36.000 - 00:50:54.000

They're just a little bit different, but about the same thing. And we really thought we were doing good into that airplane. It's lots more horsepower, you know, and that was really fun. I enjoyed that a lot, so.

00:50:54.000 - 00:51:20.000

Did any of your bay mates wash out? Yes, one did, and then one got sick and had to go back to another class. And so that was after a while, so I don't know. I don't think they gave us anybody else in our bay to replace the one that washed out.

00:51:20.000 - 00:51:31.000

Do you know why she washed out? No, I don't know. Speaking of your bays, did you have inspections? Yeah, I guess we did.

00:51:31.000 - 00:51:46.000

All those things were so-- Long time ago. Yeah, when they didn't matter, you know, we just were flying. While you were there, did you meet any of those English pilots?

00:51:46.000 - 00:52:04.000

No, I didn't. How long did they stay before they were moved out? Well, I have no idea. I mean, for the records, I'd have no idea.

00:52:04.000 - 00:52:33.000

And when you started flying the BTs, do you recall your instructors? Yeah, the first instructor I had, whose name was Tucker, and I thought he was good. And the next one was--oh, I know he's just as good as--it begins with a "W." Anyway, he was--with him I always laughed because they had been used to doing the men, you know.

00:52:33.000 - 00:53:00.000

And so we came to taxi in and put our plane in the right spot there on the ramp, and somebody else got in front of us, coming from the other direction, and he got in the angle, started going in before we did, so we didn't have that. And so this guy--I don't know what he said, but I had never even heard these curse words, you know.

00:53:00.000 - 00:53:21.000

And my father never--he might have said, "Damn, that was terrible," you know, "The barn was terrible in our house, so we didn't do that." And I went back to my bay that day, and I said, "What are these words he said to me?" He wasn't saying them to me; he was just mad at the other guy, you know.

00:53:21.000 - 00:53:40.000

And they laughed. I said, "Well, I was so naive I didn't know the difference." So it didn't offend me because I didn't even know what he was talking about. When you finished your course then in basic training, what airplane then did you fly?

00:53:40.000 - 00:53:59.000

Then we did the 86 and then the Bamboo Bomber. Did you do those same ones? No, you didn't do those? Yeah, so anyway, in that one--on the BT, the only thing that happened there was the carburetor--

00:53:59.000 - 00:54:18.000

I had leaned it off a lot on the cross country and then forgot to put it back in as we got down lower, you know, and so when I had to land, the engine started kind of doing strange, you know, and I really remember then, "Oh, push that in," you know,

00:54:18.000 - 00:54:42.000

and needed to get the carburetor heated. But anyway, that was the only thing that-- and then we had the AT--in the Bamboo Bomber we had a tire blowout on our landing over to Big Springs. One of the other--there was two of us in the plane, and so that was--happened,

00:54:42.000 - 00:55:02.000

but that was the biggest incident that happened to me. Okay. In the twin engine, what was the purpose, do you know, of learning to fly that when you would go with another trainee? Well, just for the experience, yes.

00:55:02.000 - 00:55:20.000

Yeah, we had already gotten soloed in it, you know, so I mean, we needed more training, you know, experience, you know. Did you use those mostly for cross country? Well, after the training, yes, yes, we probably did, most of them.

00:55:20.000 - 00:55:35.000

Did you also go cross country in the 86? Yes, oh, yes, and VTs on the VTs also. In any of those cross country trips, anything unusual happen, ever get lost? No.

00:55:35.000 - 00:55:50.000

I don't remember getting lost. While you were in training, were any of the trainees killed? Yes, I think there was one while we were there. But you didn't know her personally?

00:55:50.000 - 00:56:15.000

No, because we all knew about it at the time, and, you know, it wasn't that we didn't really know them, but it wasn't in my bay or close by, you know. In the meantime, they began--they brought the people from Houston that was in the same class, and they were in the next bay from me, but we didn't get--we weren't on the same time frame with them,

00:56:15.000 - 00:56:43.000

so we didn't know them too much either, you know. We didn't really have time to do a lot of socializing, except for our own group, you know. Were any of the ground school courses hard for you? I don't remember it being too much.

00:56:43.000 - 00:57:07.000

The main part, and it's still always a problem, is engines and things like that. I didn't have that much--as much background as I did in the instrument part, you know, so that part when we were having to worry about the engines and parts of the engines and things like that, I always had a hard time with that.

00:57:07.000 - 00:57:26.000

I don't think it was a problem, but-- What was your understanding as far as the training for the girls compared to the training for the boys? Well, they said that we had the same, and I think since we had the teachers that had been doing the men, I guess it was the same.

00:57:26.000 - 00:57:41.000

That's all that they did. They did the same--I suppose they did. I think that they were used to doing the men, so they must have had the same standards and had to have the same standards.

00:57:41.000 - 00:58:06.000

I understand that eventually they said that they did, and I know some of them, it seemed like that they got stricter, but I'm not really sure. It may have been that they just didn't have as much experience when they came in because they did let some restrictions not be quite as strict.

00:58:06.000 - 00:58:26.000

Did you have uniforms? No, just the suits. Then finally we got some khakis, you know, and a white shirt for our graduation, I think. For your graduation, did you have some dignitaries that came?

00:58:26.000 - 00:58:45.000

Well, Cochran came for that, yes, and that was nice. And the Big Springs Band, I think, came and probably some other-- I don't know whether Half-Armed came or not. He may have come because that was still special time, you know, but I'm not really sure about that.

00:58:45.000 - 00:59:04.000

In the meantime, did you have correspondence? What way did you keep up with your parents? Well, my father in the meantime had been transferred to Amarillo, Texas because there was so much traffic of the soldiers,

00:59:04.000 - 00:59:25.000

and he was having to make sure all the traffic for the military was taken care of, and there was a lot in Texas. So he was in Amarillo, was stationed there, and my mother was still in Atlanta, but she moved to Amarillo then, but they still had the house in Atlanta.

00:59:25.000 - 00:59:49.000

So when I graduated, they could come to my graduation, which was nice. And then my mother went back to Atlanta, and when I was back to Atlanta for the break, I helped her get her household and storage, and then so she went back to stay with my father in Amarillo.

00:59:49.000 - 01:00:14.000

Eventually, after the war was over, they went back to Atlanta. Did you have a choice of assignments after you graduated? Well, I didn't really, and I was sent to Dallas. And so while we were home, I got a telegram that said, "Well, that's been changed,

01:00:14.000 - 01:00:35.000

and you go to Dallas and you'll get a plane to go to Washington, D.C." And so we didn't--things didn't--we really didn't know what was going on most of the time. We just did whatever they told us to do. And so we got there to Washington, D.C., and then they said, "Well, you're going to go to Camp Davis, North Carolina."

01:00:35.000 - 01:00:50.000

Your whole class? No, just--no, just--I was--no, I don't know. About how many of you? Well, this was just people from our class.

01:00:50.000 - 01:01:01.000

Were there two of you, or ten, or three or four? No, there was like 25 of us. Okay. But they were--I didn't know all of them or anything like that.

01:01:01.000 - 01:01:11.000

So how'd you get from Dallas to Washington? They flew us there. They flew us there. So I went to Dallas, where I was supposed to go, and then went to Washington, D.C.

01:01:11.000 - 01:01:36.000

And in Washington, where did you report? I don't remember, but I guess somebody met us, and then we were taken into the pressure chambers, you know, to do that. And I don't remember them telling us what we were going to do, but I'm sure they did. And then you--how did you get into Camp Davis?

01:01:36.000 - 01:02:07.000

On the train, yeah. And on the train, somebody--another train ran into the back of us, and we were in the back car, and we couldn't get out of the back of the plane--I mean, of the train, because this other engine was in front of--it was in back of us. So anyway, nobody was hurt, but it was an accident kind of along the way there.

01:02:07.000 - 01:02:24.000

And it was night, so we were all in bed, you know. But anyway, we went from Washington, D.C. down to Wilmington, North Carolina. And how long were you on those tracks before you moved, you know? Did you go on another train?

01:02:24.000 - 01:02:42.000

No, they--we stayed on the same one, and I guess they just had to back the other one back or something, or move one frontwards or something. I don't know how they did it, but it was kind of a shock. When you got to Camp Davis, were there other WASPs already there?

01:02:42.000 - 01:03:07.000

Yes, there were, and we didn't really know that was--that they had--the class before us that had people there. You know, transportation--I mean, communication--or maybe I just wasn't aware of it, but I guess other people knew about it, but I didn't really--we didn't really know that they had-- they really kept it very quiet that the women were going to do something about--besides ferrying.

01:03:07.000 - 01:03:27.000

And so-- When you got to Camp Davis, to whom did you report? Well, they had somebody there at the railroad station, and they had a bus to take us up to Camp Davis. And then I guess they assigned our barracks for us.

01:03:27.000 - 01:03:51.000

Did you live in barracks with other women in service? Yes, yeah, we just--it was just us. We had two single-engine--I mean, two barracks that were just one story apiece, and I guess it was about 25 of us in each barrack, and we each had our own room and everything.

01:03:51.000 - 01:04:13.000

Okay. And then what was your assignment at Camp Davis? Well, we were assigned to do missions for the anti-aircraft battalion that was trying to learn how to track the airplanes that might come over and, you know, attack our country or wherever they are trying to protect.

01:04:13.000 - 01:04:33.000

And so our missions were to fly the different planes--different kind of planes and different tracks for them to follow us, sometimes with a tow target, sometimes with radar, sometimes with searchlights at nighttime. And so just all different kinds.

01:04:33.000 - 01:04:53.000

I guess about--I think I have 10 different planes that we used for different kinds of missions for them. Before you started flying those missions, did you have to go through more training? Well, I guess we did, yeah. I guess we had to--it wasn't much.

01:04:53.000 - 01:05:22.000

But that was a pretty big airplane. We had the Helldiver and the Douglas Dauntless, which were-- the Helldiver was quite a large airplane, one of the largest horsepower of a single engine at that time. It was like a--and the Douglas Dauntless was much more sophisticated than we had before.

01:05:22.000 - 01:05:33.000

But we always had to have a checklist and have somebody write with us. But I don't remember that, but I'm sure we did. But they were all single engine. Those were.

01:05:33.000 - 01:05:51.000

And then we went to--we had B-34s and B-37s, which were medium bombers. And we gradually went through those as co-pilots. And I think some of the girls got to be--I don't know that any of them were pilot-in-command of those. What were those used for?

01:05:51.000 - 01:06:11.000

Those were the same thing. They had--we usually used those at night, too, for the searchlights, and also in the daytime for towing targets. Of all those airplanes and those missions, which was your favorite?

01:06:11.000 - 01:06:30.000

Well, besides those, we had--it was like a BT-18 now--or a B-18 they have now. They tow, you know, as a civilian. But I like that one. It was an AT-9 or an AT-11, which were used for the bomber trainers.

01:06:30.000 - 01:06:45.000

But I like those, and we used them for transportation for maybe people to go to Atlanta, the generals or officers, or to Washington. I like those, and I like the cross-country, and I like the multi-engine very best. But I like those.

01:06:45.000 - 01:06:58.000

They were smaller, but I really liked them, and I still think they are very nice. [Laughs.] What was your first mission there that you flew? I don't remember.

01:06:58.000 - 01:07:13.000

It was an A-24 with Douglas Dauntless. Most of us did that first to begin with. Take me through a mission that you would fly towing a target, for example. What would happen?

01:07:13.000 - 01:07:32.000

Well, we usually had a towman that took care of that, and we didn't really worry too much about it, I guess. We just went and did our thing, you know. And we'd go up to whatever altitude they wanted us to go to and then just go up.

01:07:32.000 - 01:07:47.000

They would have a signed box that we would--along the coastline of North Carolina there, along the coastline, just go up and down. A pattern. Pattern, back and forth.

01:07:47.000 - 01:07:59.000

So when you get up to altitude, he would let out the tow target? Yeah. And then what would happen? Well, then we would go down, and they would have the anti-aircraft try to hit the target, you know.

01:07:59.000 - 01:08:22.000

And then when they would drop it, then they could see how much targets had been hit, you know. A lot of times we didn't even have the target. We'd just go up and down the same path so they could follow us, you know. And sometimes there were small planes, even with L-4 and L-5,

01:08:22.000 - 01:08:39.000

which were smaller planes, like little Cessnas like that type of thing. When you'd go up and down without a target, was it for radar tracking? I guess so. And they gave us--I have a certificate that we went to the training for a whole week

01:08:39.000 - 01:08:57.000

of what the men were doing on the ground so we would know what they were doing. And there was some radar--some radio communications sometimes, but not usually with us. We didn't talk to them usually. When they were doing anti-aircraft, were they using live ammunition?

01:08:57.000 - 01:09:19.000

As far as I know, they said they were, you know. Describe a searchlight mission. What was that like? Well, at night then, they tried to find us with their searchlights and follow us so that they could shoot at it if they wanted to, but they were just trying to keep track of us, you know.

01:09:19.000 - 01:09:40.000

Usually how long would a searchlight mission last? Well, most all the missions were, you know, I think we would have a four-hour block of time, and that would be about it. They weren't too much longer than that. Anything unusual happen to you during any of those missions?

01:09:40.000 - 01:10:14.000

Or any missions stand out in your mind? No. The commander there, Colonel Stevenson, he gave me my instrument writing, and I don't think he did that with anybody else, but I thought that was really nice of him to do that. He took some, we used AT-11, which I liked, and we did an instrument flight over to Raleigh,

01:10:14.000 - 01:10:41.000

and he had two of the lieutenant's safety persons in the back to watch, and they didn't like that very much. I thought it was wonderful, and we had a black, it wasn't a hood, but it was a draper around us so that we couldn't see outside, but he was in the co-pilot seat,

01:10:41.000 - 01:11:18.000

and we went to Raleigh and got the cone of silence on the radio range there, and back home. It was a very, very hot day, and it was very, very bumping, and I got that cone of silence so good, you know, but those poor guys in the back, they were going up and down and up and down, you know. I'm sure they weren't very happy about it, but I always thought about that, but anyway, I did it.

01:11:18.000 - 01:11:48.000

How were the WAMPs treated overall at Camp Davis? Well, you know, it was a hard time, I think, for people to really think we should be there, but, you know, we did our best, and I think they recognized that, and I think Colonel Stevenson felt that way, too, though I think he would have had men there,

01:11:48.000 - 01:12:16.000

but only because maybe they were concerned for us, don't you think? I don't know how that is, but, you know, people still feel like it's strange that women fly, and I think it's just like they think that's a man's job, but it's just different. If you like it, you like it, you know.

01:12:16.000 - 01:12:37.000

While you were at Camp Davis, were there some accidents? Well, to begin with, there was right at the beginning, and that gave a sour situation to begin with. One there was a group that was our first group there. They had had an accident just before we came, so that was very sad,

01:12:37.000 - 01:12:55.000

and then while we were there, one of the people from our group had an accident. Both of them were at night in a very tragic situation right at the airport. So I think they just didn't have that much training, especially at night, because it's just like instrument flight there,

01:12:55.000 - 01:13:17.000

because at night there was no lights or anything except on the runways, and it was a swampy kind of area, and no lights or anything, so I'm sure it was just like an instrument flight. I just think it was probably too much airplane.

01:13:17.000 - 01:13:44.000

They said, though, that one of them was sabotaged, that they had put sugar in there. The girl that was killed in your group, did you know her? Yes, oh, yes, yes. She was a group that was at Sweetwater with us. What was she like? We'll never be able to talk to her, so tell us what she was like.

01:13:44.000 - 01:14:03.000

I didn't know her that much. I think she had a friend that she had--I don't know whether she had gotten married or not right there before that. I don't know enough about it to say about her situation. Did you see that accident?

01:14:03.000 - 01:14:40.000

Well, it was right outside of our barrack almost, but we didn't go to see, no. While you were stationed at Camp Davis, did you get temporary orders to go anyplace else? Well, yes, we went to Savannah, to Liberty Field, and they stopped--I guess they stopped the anti-aircraft group there in Camp Davis. I'm not sure what happened to Camp Davis, but they went to Liberty Field down in Savannah.

01:14:40.000 - 01:15:04.000

Did all of you go? I think, yeah. When we went down there, I went down there, but I had gotten--I was going to get married, so when we went there, I wanted to get married because I didn't want to leave my--who would be my husband? I hadn't married him yet, but anyway, so we decided--I asked her if I could resign,

01:15:04.000 - 01:15:31.000

and so I went on down to Savannah with them, but I didn't stay there for a while, and I had a month's leave, so I took that and went home to Amarillo with my parents and got ready for the marriage, and then all the girls were still at Savannah, and I had a really good friend of my family's, and they made their arrangements

01:15:31.000 - 01:16:01.000

because my family couldn't come over, so they took care of making the arrangements in the Episcopal Church there, and that was really nice. I had all the girls there to help celebrate. Let me back up. Evidently, I missed your social activities somewhere. Yeah, well, we had met. He was--we really weren't supposed to date with enlisted men,

01:16:01.000 - 01:16:28.000

but he was a crew chief for the 747s--I mean, the P-47s, and so I was interested in that and had gotten a written to fly in, and anyway, he seemed to want to date me, and so we did, and we had a car that several of us had shared together, so they would let us use it to go on a date or something. This was at Camp Davis?

01:16:28.000 - 01:16:56.000

Yeah, uh-huh, and so then we were asked to go over--this was another thing we did at Camp Davis. We had these PQ-8s that were little--they were small airplanes that they could use to shoot them with the guns and shoot them down, and they were controlled by the mothership, a B-34. It had the equipment in there to handle them, like the radio controls here.

01:16:56.000 - 01:17:18.000

Now, we didn't have those, but now they were just starting that, but we had to go over to the factory to bring some back because they needed some more of them, and so while I was gone, I thought, "Gee whiz, I was really--you know, I missed him," and when we got back, he said, "Well, let's get married," and we had thought about it,

01:17:18.000 - 01:17:39.000

and then they decided to send us to Liberty Field, and so we decided, "Well, we'll just go on and get married," and so we did. So I stayed back to--went back to Wilmington and stayed there in a home with a lady--a family there, and so he could come in on the weekends, you know.

01:17:39.000 - 01:17:55.000

Okay. Let me ask you about the PQ-8. You could--it was radio-controlled, but the pilot could also control it? Yes, he could, but they didn't have the--when they put it in missions, they didn't have the pilot there. Okay.

01:17:55.000 - 01:18:19.000

So once they--to begin with, they would have the pilot in there, and then while everybody got used to doing it, then they would just send it up by itself with the B-34 and would be the control--the mother control, and they would--the mother control would set over on the land surfaces,

01:18:19.000 - 01:18:37.000

and the PQ-8 would be along the coastline where the artillery was, and they could just shoot that down. They would use it until it would shoot, but they could bring it back to the airport, too. Okay. So you ferried those?

01:18:37.000 - 01:18:41.000

Yes. Okay. Yes, I did. Okay.

01:18:41.000 - 01:18:59.000

That took us two--I think it took us two weeks to get back because it was in the middle of--it was like in February from Kansas to Camp Davis, and it was so cold and the weather was so bad. Can you imagine that all in the wintertime? It took us a long time to get there.

01:18:59.000 - 01:19:12.000

It was eight of us went in. How could you compare flying that PQ-8 with anything else? Would it be like a PT-19? Yeah, but it's smaller.

01:19:12.000 - 01:19:20.000

It would be like a-- Smaller. Yeah, it was smaller. That doesn't have much instruments in it, and we had a colonel--not a colonel, a lieutenant with us,

01:19:20.000 - 01:19:46.000

and I guess it was a captain with us, and then we just followed him. And as we came to Atlanta--got to Atlanta--this was getting close to home again-- the guy turned around and went in a circle, and we all circled around him. So then he was trying to make sure we were all there.

01:19:46.000 - 01:20:04.000

We got to Atlanta and landed in Atlanta at the municipal airport there, and the last one in the flight was out of gas when she landed. She had to be towed away from us. We just didn't have much gas in that plane.

01:20:04.000 - 01:20:23.000

So anyway, that was a strange thing. Okay, let me ask you, what were the qualities that you saw in that young man that made you fall in love with him? Well, he was interesting, and we just enjoyed the same things.

01:20:23.000 - 01:20:54.000

We liked to dance, and we liked airplanes, and he was just someone that I enjoyed. We used to go to the officers' club sometimes in the evening if we had a chance, and so we met people there, but they were mostly in the aircraft part. But some of the girls met the pilots that were there, and several of them married.

01:20:54.000 - 01:21:13.000

In our class, married the people that were there. So your wedding was at Camp David? No, it was in Savannah. Liberty Field is really near Savannah.

01:21:13.000 - 01:21:27.000

It was the oldest church, I think, in the Episcopal Church in the United States. It's a beautiful church. But none of your family got to come? No, they couldn't come.

01:21:27.000 - 01:21:49.000

We were still in the war. Things were slowing down, but of course, the WASP disbanded before too long after that. Okay, she needs to change. The woman that was getting her daughter in Arlington,

01:21:49.000 - 01:22:08.000

then they say now that we really were enlisted people. This is another thing that just came in on this thing. Now, isn't that something? Even though they let her go in there, they said it was as enlisted.

01:22:08.000 - 01:22:18.000

It's almost like one more slap in the face. How can they do that? But anyway, it was strange. I know, but now we can be a Dadaian.

01:22:18.000 - 01:22:30.000

What? Oh, yeah, yeah, wouldn't we? They finally recognized us. But it was strange how that worked, I don't know.

01:22:30.000 - 01:22:48.000

Okay, tell me about your wedding. Oh, well, it was wonderful. All the girls that were there at Liberty Field, they came, and they still had the car that the three of us had bought together.

01:22:48.000 - 01:23:12.000

So they let us have the car and go out on the beach, Savannah Beach there, for our honeymoon. Did any of the girls, were they in Bridesmaids? Well, we didn't have big wedding gowns. I just had a suit, sort of, a really pretty suit, and lots of other nice things.

01:23:12.000 - 01:23:23.000

And they did, too. I think they had their uniforms then. Did your husband wear his uniform? Yeah, yeah.

01:23:23.000 - 01:23:43.000

And by that time, did you have a Santiago blue uniform? Yeah, but I didn't wear mine then, no. Okay, so once you married, then you borrowed the car and-- We went--well, they all got together, and we had a dinner at this big hotel on the way to Savannah Beach.

01:23:43.000 - 01:24:05.000

And then they all went back home, back to Gays Basin. That was the place there on the beach that we had made arrangements for. Had you resigned from the WASP before you got married, or you did it after? Well, I had resigned, but I had gone home, and so I was now--I had already finished my time with the WASP.

01:24:05.000 - 01:24:22.000

I mean, had been discharged. Did you have any problem doing that? No, I don't think they liked it for us to do that. I don't know if that happened before, if you know about that or not, but I don't think they liked it.

01:24:22.000 - 01:24:37.000

But everybody knew they were going to probably disband because the European battles were kind of diminishing, you know. What month did you get married? In May. Okay.

01:24:37.000 - 01:25:09.000

Then did he stay in the Air Force? Yes, he was still in the Air Force. And we then later on, before Pearl Harbor--I mean, before the end of the Pacific War, we were sent to--oh, well, not Sweden. Now then, I can't think of the thing.

01:25:09.000 - 01:25:42.000

Deming, New Mexico, the Air Force base there. And while we were there, they had the shot that they were practicing for the nuclear bomb. And it wasn't right there near us, but it was so loud, it woke all of us up. And they had to say what happened, and they said two tankers came together, had a clash.

01:25:42.000 - 01:25:50.000

That's what they said happened. Oh, and they were testing the bomb. Testing the bomb, the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb there.

01:25:50.000 - 01:26:06.000

That was amazing. We didn't know about that until after they attacked Japan. At Deming, did you have quarters on the base, or did you live in town? They had quarters for the people that lived there.

01:26:06.000 - 01:26:24.000

It wasn't on the base, but they had apartments for other families there. So we had a nice place there. While he was on the job, how did you spend your time? Well, I got pregnant eventually.

01:26:24.000 - 01:26:47.000

By the time I got there, it was a busy time. There was lots of things to do. Then I was getting ready to take care of the baby. My family was still in Amarillo, so my mother could come down when the baby came.

01:26:47.000 - 01:26:58.000

Had you kept up your music playing? No, no. That all went down the drain for a while. Or tennis or anything?

01:26:58.000 - 01:27:08.000

No, no. It was interesting there. So then did you have your baby at Deming? Yes, eventually, yeah.

01:27:08.000 - 01:27:27.000

In an Army hospital? No, there was just a regular hospital there. The people that were the nurse there were friends of ours, so that was kind of nice. We kept track of them for all these years.

01:27:27.000 - 01:27:42.000

It was kind of a nice arrangement. Because you had friends, and everybody was in the same position. We were away from home. Deming was not the best place in the world.

01:27:42.000 - 01:27:52.000

How long were you stationed at Deming? About a year, I guess. Then was he transferred out? No, he got out after that.

01:27:52.000 - 01:28:08.000

By this time, the war was winding down. When he got out, where did you move? We went to North Carolina, to Charlotte, North Carolina. My uncle that had the manufacturing company there gave him a job.

01:28:08.000 - 01:28:32.000

Later on, he was glad to have the job, but then he got a job into construction, in equipment. So he did that. Did his family live close? No, they lived in Ohio, so we could get together in the summers, but not too often.

01:28:32.000 - 01:28:55.000

Eventually, did you have other children? Yes, and then I had a son eighteen months later. And then I had another son that was about six years after that. As your children were growing up, how involved were you with their activities?

01:28:55.000 - 01:29:12.000

Well, you know, completely. You know, that was the way it was. We enjoyed lots of traveling, just in the car. We were in North Carolina.

01:29:12.000 - 01:29:29.000

We would go to the beach, and we'd go over to the mountains, and they were busy in school. We stayed in North Carolina for ten years, and then we came to Florida. Were they into scouting? Oh, yeah.

01:29:29.000 - 01:29:45.000

Were you involved in scouting? Yeah, and they even, as they got older, the boys helped with other brown—the boy scouts. What do they call the boys? Cubs.

01:29:45.000 - 01:29:58.000

Cubs, yeah. So they even helped them. And my daughter was—she took dancing lessons and piano lessons, just like I did. They all liked to swim.

01:29:58.000 - 01:30:23.000

And there was a swimming—a nice swimming pool there near where we lived in Charlotte, and so I taught swimming there with small children, you know. And then I worked on a kindergarten in the church there, just in the morning sessions for a while, when they were all little.

01:30:23.000 - 01:30:42.000

Right. Were the children able to visit their grandparents? Yeah, my family then came back to Atlanta, and so that wasn't too bad a drive to go down to Atlanta. And then his family—his sister, I was really close with her, and we got together.

01:30:42.000 - 01:30:57.000

I'd go up to Ohio, or they would come down. We got a chance to—but not as much as we'd like to, but it was good at that time. You just didn't travel as much then. Right. Did you spend family vacations together?

01:30:57.000 - 01:31:24.000

Oh, yeah, we always had—we always had drives and camping sometimes, and sometimes just visiting family or other people, friends, you know. Why do you think it's important for families to be involved with their children's activities? Well, that's just the way it should be.

01:31:24.000 - 01:31:46.000

I mean, how can you not do that, you know? I just think that it's very important that they feel like you're interested in what they're doing. Maybe you're not doing it, but I've enjoyed that. My boys like to—we had a little band that I let them even have practice in my house,

01:31:46.000 - 01:32:10.000

even with the drum, you know. And the other one had accordion, and the boys did. I mean, you know, we did a lot of different—they liked to play ball and different things. My one son liked to make cars, and he finally made his own car from the junkyard.

01:32:10.000 - 01:32:25.000

And my husband liked that too, you know. So there's always something. We had a boat, and we'd go boating and skiing. Everybody would go skiing in the bay when we were down here.

01:32:25.000 - 01:32:47.000

You know, we'd take all the kids that wanted to go with us. We lived in a community where everybody kind of knew each other in Miami Springs here. And everybody, all the kids knew each other, and they were all in the same school and just had lots of community things for children, and the church had lots of good things.

01:32:47.000 - 01:33:13.000

Why did you decide to move to Florida? Well, there was another wife down here, and so we came to visit them, and a friend of Helen's snaps too, and we liked it so much we decided we'd come down. So my husband put in for a construction company that was here, the Linsley Lumber Company,

01:33:13.000 - 01:33:43.000

and he got the job, and so we decided to come here. So we sold our house in Charlotte and came down here, and we got a duplex. We bought a duplex just for the time being, and then we built a house in Miami Springs. We liked that. It was near the airport, and it seemed like everybody said it was a nice area, so we did that.

01:33:43.000 - 01:34:04.000

In his construction, was he building? Well, it was really salesmen for construction stuff, a lumber company and all that kind. It was a very busy time for construction and building homes and things like that, and he was just a salesman with the company.

01:34:04.000 - 01:34:39.000

And at one time, had your children already gone away to school when you decided to do something else? Well, in the meantime, my daughter got married. Time keeps on going, and I got divorced, so I decided I needed to do something that I could make more money. And so I decided, well, they were in school, the kids were in school, and Donna wasn't married then.

01:34:39.000 - 01:35:03.000

But anyway, I got a job at Miami Dade Community College, which was just starting here at Miami, and got a job and a secretary, and it was starting an aviation department. They said, "Why are you doing secretarial work? Why aren't you in the aviation department? You can be a secretary in the aviation department."

01:35:03.000 - 01:35:29.000

So then they needed somebody as an instructor, and they said, "Well, why don't you teach?" And in the meantime, I had gotten together with this wasp here, and we had started flying. And another wasp came down here, and she and her husband took me flying, and Katie Straley, who was in my class at Sweetwater also, but I hadn't kept in touch with him.

01:35:29.000 - 01:36:03.000

She got me flying, and Ruth Fleischer was flying down here, too. So we kind of got this little thing going where we was flying, and I got the current with Miami Dade, and we took the classes there, because we didn't have the civilian license or certificates. So I got all my certificates done, instrument and commercial, and then I got my flight instructor.

01:36:03.000 - 01:36:45.000

So then I had a job at Miami Dade, and I had to finish my degree, because I hadn't finished my degree. So I took a light leave and went to finish it at Florida Atlantic University, still in business, though. And then I went my master's in the University of Miami, and then went on to all the courses for the doctorate. Then the '99s gave me an ATP college scholarship, so I didn't finish the doctor's degree, because I didn't really need that.

01:36:45.000 - 01:37:09.000

I just needed it for my job money. So I got that, and I got the ATP. So then I was a full professor at Miami Dade for twenty-five years. And what were you teaching at Miami Dade? Well, I did the flight instruct, all the ground schools, the instruments.

01:37:09.000 - 01:37:31.000

We had a wonderful simulator program, and I mastered that, I mean, I monitored that. And then we had a meteorology lab, and so I managed that. I mean, they had people other do it, but we had a wonderful—better than flight service station, even. Better than flight service station had theirs.

01:37:31.000 - 01:37:48.000

So, you know, it was just exciting to do that. When you were— I was a coach for the flying team for the intercollegiate flights that they did with other colleges. They had all these different things.

01:37:48.000 - 01:38:18.000

You know, are you a '99? No, oh, okay. Anyway, they have—the '99s always judge the competition, just like football, but it's in aviation, you know. During this time that you were instructing, was it all ground school type stuff, or did you instruct in the air? I could instruct, too, but I didn't do a whole lot of that because it's just too time—I didn't have the time.

01:38:18.000 - 01:38:42.000

But I also always had some students, but they weren't students at the school. They were private students from—just needed to want their license, and so I did that. But I didn't want to conflict that with Miami-Dade. And with Katie Straley, she had a flight school, and she'd always ask me to take some students from her school.

01:38:42.000 - 01:39:04.000

It wasn't with Miami-Dade, so I did that a lot. And the school that the students went to, the simulators, I helped them also at that, so I was using that, too. So I was very involved in it, in aviation then. Did your children ever get interested in aviation?

01:39:04.000 - 01:39:27.000

Well, you know, by the time they—they were already kind of—well, Donna was older, and she got married, and so they all liked it, and I took them flying, but we didn't have the money for them to fly, and so I didn't make the effort to do it. It wasn't their thing, I guess.

01:39:27.000 - 01:39:40.000

At Miami-Dade, was that just one section of that school? Oh, yeah. It's the biggest community college in the United States. It's a tremendous college.

01:39:40.000 - 01:40:00.000

It has about five different campuses or more than that. But this was very unusual for a community college. Now they have 200 of them that have them all over the country in colleges, you know. So it's a wonderful opportunity for people to do it in their own community, you know.

01:40:00.000 - 01:40:23.000

But we were the largest—most people in the airport at Opa-locka, when these students were going there. It was very busy, busy, bigger than Chicago and New York. There's so many people doing the flying there. It was the biggest, big thing.

01:40:23.000 - 01:40:39.000

And you stayed there until you retired. What was your title when you retired? Professor, full professor at Miami-Dade in the department. And by the time you retired, all three children were on their own.

01:40:39.000 - 01:40:49.000

Yes, yeah. Tell me about your kids now. Well, Donna is—well, you met her. She's great.

01:40:49.000 - 01:41:06.000

And her husband and she were—they were high school sweethearts. And after she finished, they both went to—he went to the University of Miami, and she went to Miami-Dade Community College in the nursing department, which was a brand-new nursing department.

01:41:06.000 - 01:41:18.000

And she graduated from that. And then they got married. And he was with—he had gotten—he got a job with IBM. He had just had two years of school, too.

01:41:18.000 - 01:41:36.000

But they got married, and he was with—and she was nursing. And then she got married—I mean, got children, a baby. And so she had to stop for a while. And then they had another child later on.

01:41:36.000 - 01:41:57.000

But in the meantime, he finished his degree. And while I'm going to get my degree, finish the paperwork to get the degree, we were both doing our same—trying to get our degrees done. So he got his, and I got mine.

01:41:57.000 - 01:42:15.000

Excuse me. Anyway, so then Donna got—finished her degree. So they all got degrees. And my brother didn't have his degree, so he decided, well, if I did it, he could do it.

01:42:15.000 - 01:42:38.000

So he got his degree and a master's, so he benefited from that, too. So anyway, and then by then, the drafts came over. And my two sons, the first one, the oldest one, was drafted the first—that was by lottery. And his was the first one drawn.

01:42:38.000 - 01:42:54.000

And my other son, the younger son, was the last one. So they were both in service. The first one was in Vietnam for four years, and the other one was in the service for eight years. But he was over in Germany.

01:42:54.000 - 01:43:09.000

So they were out of the picture for a while—not the picture, but, you know, they weren't with us. But we'd get together. I went once on a trip. I went on lots of trips, and I went one with—when he was in Germany, and he joined the trip with us.

01:43:09.000 - 01:43:22.000

They let him go with us for—in the time when we were in Germany, the tour let him go with us. That was kind of nice. He enjoyed it. The Berlin Wall was still there then, of course.

01:43:22.000 - 01:43:33.000

He was in the military, and he could see that and all of those people around the wall. Have you seen that? Oh, yes. Well, he was really impressed.

01:43:33.000 - 01:43:48.000

He was still young, and he could see all that was going on there. And what are they doing now, your sons? My younger son that was in Germany there, he's with Bell South. He's been there with Bell South for seventeen years.

01:43:48.000 - 01:44:13.000

And now they're in Brooksville, Florida. And my other son is in Orlando, and he's managers of a small community up there, as a kind of manager of the community there, a small town. And now do you have family gatherings?

01:44:13.000 - 01:44:28.000

Sort of. Everybody's—we try to get together. We went to Washington for one of the reunions for the WASP, and that was great. Most everybody got to go to that.

01:44:28.000 - 01:44:45.000

One of them didn't get to go. And then we try to get together at Christmas or Thanksgiving, whenever we can. They came down for Mother's Day, and then we had dinner with my grandson last night, with all of us, you know.

01:44:45.000 - 01:45:00.000

I was over at Brooksville, and we had—with the son over there. And we went to Sun 'n' Fun. So, you know, we get together pretty good. Have you kept up with your WASP friends?

01:45:00.000 - 01:45:20.000

Well, we had twelve of us kept up together all these years. Now, a couple of them died, and we replaced some of them with— somebody else wanted to be in the Round Robin, and it would go around about once a year. So we did keep—and at Christmas we'd always kept in touch.

01:45:20.000 - 01:45:37.000

But then—now then, there's just about six of us now in there, but we still try to keep it going. But it's—most of them, we haven't gotten together too much. But for a while, we did, yeah. Your map with all the pens on it.

01:45:37.000 - 01:45:41.000

Yeah. Can I take just a minute? I need to go— Oh, let's see.

01:45:41.000 - 01:45:46.000

Somebody's coming, I think. Okay. Stop it. Now I've forgotten what we were doing.

01:45:46.000 - 01:45:56.000

I'll tell you. We were—to all the pens that are on the map. Oh. Well, I guess I've been all around the world at different times.

01:45:56.000 - 01:46:24.000

And at school, we had time off in the summer, and that was one reason— to begin with, I wanted it because I could still be with my kids on the summer times, and we did. But then later on, as they were all gone, I could still—I had a friend that liked to go at the same time. And she had been at the Link Trainer when I was with the Navy, and she was at Miami Dade Community College.

01:46:24.000 - 01:46:59.000

And she hadn't been married, and so she liked to travel, and we just went everywhere. Well, she went—she and I went to a lot of the places she liked to—some of them I went to myself. And my daughter and I went to Russia and all the Scandinavian countries one day, one time. We went to China and Japan with a group from school, and then we went to Australia and New Zealand with another group.

01:46:59.000 - 01:47:17.000

We went with a WASP over to Africa for five—and it was safaris in Africa. How many WASPs? It was 26 of us in the WASP. And then we went to—at the same time, we went to Egypt.

01:47:17.000 - 01:47:39.000

And then a couple years ago, I went with my grandson and his wife and child and another friend of mine. We went to the Greek islands and over. So I've been to Alaska three times. Once flew, and once on the Marine Highway, and once on a cruise.

01:47:39.000 - 01:48:02.000

So we did a lot of traveling with campers, and I went up to all over the United States and all over Canada, over the glaciers in Canada. Was this in an RV? Uh-huh. For some of it was, but yeah.

01:48:02.000 - 01:48:37.000

But we had the summer, and then we went to Peru, went to Machu Picchu up there, Galapagos, Mexico. All these were different, but I had several different friends and family that would go. When you go on these trips, Fran, do you go out on hikes? Do you stay inside, out in the country, or do you stay in hotels?

01:48:37.000 - 01:49:08.000

Well, each one is different. Yeah, when we have the RV, well, we stop at campgrounds, and then sometimes we had one that would hitch to the car, and so we could just take it off the car and go all around the sightseeing around. Sometimes we'd stop at a friend's house, and we had one time, for a long time, we had a small one that could just bring in somebody's driveway.

01:49:08.000 - 01:49:20.000

And then we could go to the campground. When you go to a foreign country, what are you mainly looking for? Are you looking for museums or...? Just whatever's in the country.

01:49:20.000 - 01:49:57.000

You know, each one is different, and I'll try to look at the things that are familiar from us because we've heard about them. The history of it has been amazing to me, the history that you learn. I wish I'd been better at history because it's just fascinating to me what's happened in history that I didn't know about, you know. And so I think that everybody should go traveling as much as they could to see other people

01:49:57.000 - 01:50:37.000

and understand other people's culture a little bit because it's very interesting what happens to other countries we don't even know about, you know. I didn't really understand that Japan and China had been warring, you know, and when we went there and the troubles they had there, all these things, we didn't even know about that. The times that how the civilization has really come from Russia down this way on down to even to Mexico and down into Peru,

01:50:37.000 - 01:50:52.000

you see this section that all went together. I never did really know about that. I should have been a history major instead. Of all the trips, what is your favorite?

01:50:52.000 - 01:51:15.000

I loved every one of them. The one that I think everybody should do most of all is go to the Galapagos, not to the Galapagos, but to Canada. They call it Bugaboos. You go there. It's a tour, and you go from Calgary, and a bus picks you up with a helicopter and takes you to this mountain.

01:51:15.000 - 01:51:42.000

It's a campground, a very nice place to put. And the helicopter takes you there, and they give you all the equipment to go and to walk with, and then they take you every morning up to the top of the mountain, beautiful mountains, and then you walk down. At the bottom, they have the helicopter and they have lunch.

01:51:42.000 - 01:52:12.000

You do another mountain and do the same thing. Then the last day, when you get back every day, they have wonderful hot things to have before supper, and then they have wonderful dinners, and the next day they have you go back again. Well, the last time, the last day, you take a garbage bag and you sit down on it on the top of a glacier and just slide down the glacier.

01:52:12.000 - 01:52:35.000

[Laughter] I mean, that was just so remarkable. And another thing was going down to Colorado, I mean, through the Grand Canyon. That was a five-day camping thing, and that's wonderful, too.

01:52:35.000 - 01:52:55.000

Those weren't history so much, but they were just special activity things, you know. There's so many things to do, and it's just so you can't get all of them done. [Laughter] And now when you're not on a trip, how do you spend your time?

01:52:55.000 - 01:53:23.000

Well, I always have too many things to do. I'm involved in a lot of aviation things still, very involved, and I still do some flight instructing, and I'm doing the scholarships, and I'm still involved in a lot of aviation organizations, the 99s, the OX5, which is one, the Greater Miami Aviation Association, the University Aviation Association.

01:53:23.000 - 01:53:44.000

I'm very still involved with FAA and keeping current with aviation things there, and just have a lot of friends that have the same interests. And now here I'm in the retirement village, and they have a lot of activities here. I can't even do the things they have.

01:53:44.000 - 01:54:09.000

There's so many, but I'm so happy to be able to do these things, and I guess get too involved maybe sometimes. But I just feel fortunate that as guardian angels have helped me along here, that I can take advantage and maybe help other people. I try to do the piano, practice the piano, and since I've been here,

01:54:09.000 - 01:54:38.000

they've had a little program here that some of us have taken part in, and so I've played the piano for that. And then they need somebody in the health center, which is like a nursing home, but it's a lovely place there. But they have a little chapel every once a week, and I go there and play the piano there for that group. So they seem to appreciate that.

01:54:38.000 - 01:55:05.000

So I try to use the time of the piano there. In your flight instruction now, do you solo people? Well, I have now then, you know, to begin with, with beginning students, I don't have the time to do that right now. It's very demanding, and I go with other people that already have their license and need to keep current,

01:55:05.000 - 01:55:30.000

and I need to keep current too, and so I do them. And then one, like tomorrow, I'll be leaving with a lady that I've done her piano before, but every two years she has to renew it. And so actually she does it every year, and I enjoy that she does it. So you're actually signing off on her certificate?

01:55:30.000 - 01:55:47.000

Yes. I have a commercial, a second-class medical, so I can still do commercial flying. And is your instrument card current? Oh, yes, oh, yes. Keep current.

01:55:47.000 - 01:56:13.000

There's some simulators, and there were other friends here. We kind of take each other and get some instrument time, so we keep current. And do you do some speaking as far as about the history of the WASP? Yes, and as more and more people seem to want to know about it, I went to, as I told you, the museum,

01:56:13.000 - 01:56:40.000

the South Florida Museum, we're having a panel of people from World War II, women that were in the service, and so I was on that panel last week. And then next week I'm going to the one for Memorial Day service project over at Tamiami Airport for Memorial service there for two days.

01:56:40.000 - 01:57:02.000

They're going to have some activities there. And then the Greater Miami Aviation Association gives all these scholarships, and I'm chairman for that, and we're having a luncheon there next week, this next week. So the days get busy, and they're nice things, you know.

01:57:02.000 - 01:57:32.000

So I just feel happy that I have friends that help me out and that we can do these things as long as we can. Of all the things you have done, this is going to be a difficult question, I'll tell you. Of all the things you have done, what is the one thing outside of having your children that you are most proud of? Well, I think the teaching at Miami-Dade and the activity, being able to do that

01:57:32.000 - 01:57:54.000

because that was really been a wonderful thing to be able to do. I didn't think I'd like to teach, and I loved it. And to have those opportunities I had was just, you know, it's just God-given. That's all I know. It just was special.

01:57:54.000 - 01:58:26.000

Like I say, the family is always first, but they've always been very supportive, you know. And as they have gotten older, they just really help me, you know, support me for whatever I do. Have any of those students that you have taught over the past years gone on to accomplish something extraordinary? Oh, yeah. Anybody flies with me, they say, "You must know everybody in the airports."

01:58:26.000 - 01:58:48.000

Every airport always knows somebody. You always know somebody there. And that's a pleasure. That's my bonus to see the people that I worked with. Now, yesterday I took my son-in-law, we went to Tamiami, and the airport manager there is a wonderful airport. Tamiami is a wonderful airport. And he's a manager now, has been for quite a while.

01:58:48.000 - 01:59:09.000

And he was the one that I wanted my son-in-law to talk to because they're both involved in this new electronic types of navigation systems, that it was GPS and those combinations, you know. And so we had a wonderful view with him, and he's just so smart. I'm so proud of him.

01:59:09.000 - 01:59:47.000

And a lot of the ones that when I got the Wright Brothers Award with the Greater Miami Aviation Association, three of my students that had been students about 15 or 20 years before came and made a videotape of me. And we had it at the program. And those guys, one of them is with the FAA inspector, the other one is a Northwestern Air pilot, and the other one has a glider school.

01:59:47.000 - 02:00:14.000

And every day I go someplace, I always have somebody there that's a pilot for the airlines or something. It's just, that's just my bonus. How were you selected for the Wright Brothers Award? Well, you're awarded for contributions in Florida in aviation, and they give it once a year.

02:00:14.000 - 02:00:39.000

And I was very honored for that. That was very special. And you get a great big trophy, and it's in Miami International Airport with your name on it. And it's really wonderful people that are on that. I can't believe my name is on it too, you know. Do they give one a year?

02:00:39.000 - 02:01:07.000

One a year. Well, they don't give you the trophy, but your name is on there, but you get an award. And so that was a very special thing. Do you know why they gave that? Was it for your teaching? Well, all the involvement, uh-huh. And they have on the plaque, it tells what you've done.

02:01:07.000 - 02:01:28.000

I would have gone maybe with one of the kids, but, you know, it's better here where I'm involved still with these other things, I think. And have you gotten other awards? Well, I've gotten the one from the University Aviation Association, which is called the,

02:01:28.000 - 02:01:46.000

it was called the Whitley Award, and this is given once a year for people in education, in university aviation type of things. And I got that one year, which was very special, the beginning. That was really special.

02:01:46.000 - 02:02:13.000

And of course, the 99ers gave me the scholarship for the ATP. I thought that was really special. That was really special, you know. So just a number of times I've been for annual awards for Florida Aero Club for my type of, and all these people have helped me do these things that I've gotten the awards from.

02:02:13.000 - 02:02:34.000

It's just that they were helping me along the way. And over the years, have you been, were you involved in any of the time when the Wasps were getting veteran status? No, I wasn't. I wasn't involved. I was encouraging it, but I know Helen Snap, my friend,

02:02:34.000 - 02:03:00.000

she was there in Washington, D.C., so she was right there where it was happening, you know. And that was wonderful that these people have been, were doing these things. And you like doing these tapes, so it's just marvelous because lots of people can't do that now. And it's just marvelous that somebody's taken time to keep track of what happened during those times

02:03:00.000 - 02:03:25.000

when we weren't too popular about having women pilots, you know. By the way, I do have to tell you one thing. One other person that I'm really happy about is my niece is a pilot now of United Airlines. And she was in the military for eight years as a pilot, aircraft commander of C-130s,

02:03:25.000 - 02:03:45.000

and she thinks it's because of me that she does that. My mother wasn't too happy about it, but I guess they've accepted that now. But she's now pregnant, and she could stay in United. She still will be with United, but she could fly until she was seven months pregnant.

02:03:45.000 - 02:04:12.000

And so now her baby is due in about two weeks, which the last time she flew, that she could fly when she was seven months. Well, the captain told her, said, "Well, now you be sure and stand outside of the cockpit when the passengers come out so they can tell you what a nice landing you made," you know.

02:04:12.000 - 02:04:27.000

And she says, "I can't do that. I'm seven months pregnant." They think, "How's she going to do that?" But she did because he insisted that she does. I thought that was a kind of showing that the people are a little more acceptive to women

02:04:27.000 - 02:04:48.000

doing things that were not traditional for a long time ago. She was aircraft commander of the C-130 and went to Saudi Arabia twice. I mean, were stationed there twice, and she loves to fly as much as I do or more even. She can't stop talking about it.

02:04:48.000 - 02:05:09.000

And so she's really happy with what's happened to her too, you know. Let me ask you about your grandchildren. Well, I have one little grand--my great-granddaughter lives here in Miami, and she's a character. She keeps you busy.

02:05:09.000 - 02:05:28.000

When I have her here, I'm tired by the day is over. Sometimes she comes and spends the night with me or something like that. We have lots of things to do, and she keeps me busy for sure. My grandson and his wife--he's a CPA, and his wife is too, and they're busy.

02:05:28.000 - 02:05:57.000

But they're a lot of fun, and we get together, and we do some traveling together. Went to the Greek islands with them, and we go skiing. I got them all skiing when they were little, and now then we go skiing sometimes as much as we can. And so my--let's see, my other granddaughter--my granddaughter is at Florida State University.

02:05:57.000 - 02:06:26.000

She's getting her--she's finishing her junior year, and she'll be a senior next year at Florida State. And my other grandson is in Memphis, and he manages a restaurant and a place where they make beer. They started it first thing in Memphis. He was in one of the groups that did that, and he's manager of this one now.

02:06:26.000 - 02:06:58.000

It's kind of a group of ones around Tennessee, and he manages that, and he loves that. And he has a wife that's the manager of the department store in Memphis, part of the department store there. And they're very--they're neat kids. Last year we went together and met each other in North Carolina up in the mountains, and we had a good time.

02:06:58.000 - 02:07:21.000

But when Donna was there, my daughter and her husband, we always went up there for Christmas, but now that they're this way, down in Florida, they couldn't come up for Christmas this year. But anyway, we all keep in touch. That's great. Throughout your life, Fran, I'm sure there have been good times and bad and happy times and sad times.

02:07:21.000 - 02:07:37.000

Right. What has gotten you through the sad times? I don't know. I just think God kind of helps me along.

02:07:37.000 - 02:08:05.000

And since I must have at least had a whole band of guardian angels, otherwise I could not have made the things that's happened. And my family's support, they've just been great. And I think the background of my own family gave me support to try to be in touch with my own family as much as we could. Can't always do that, but it helps.

02:08:05.000 - 02:08:31.000

What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? Well, I don't know, but the women that I've had, a number of them, I could tell you stories all day about some of them. And they just think that we start the WASP, made them able to be pilots, and they love it. You know, they love it.

02:08:31.000 - 02:08:57.000

And I think that they think that the WASP got that for them. And I think that every one that I know has always said that, "Well, you know, you are the one that got it started." And so I think that's something that we should be proud of to tell about it. You know, when Janet Reno was at a reunion, were you there?

02:08:57.000 - 02:09:20.000

You know, she's a good friend. We know her very well because she lives in this area. And she said we should tell other people about the women and what they did because they need some role models. And I never thought we needed to be role models, but maybe if that would help. And I've seen these other young ladies say it meant a lot to them.

02:09:20.000 - 02:09:40.000

If I could do it, if this sergeant could do it, well, we can do it too, you know. And so I think, well, we should tell them about it because I hardly ever told anybody about it, you know. I'm disappointed that I didn't do that more. But people like you are doing it, so that's wonderful.

02:09:40.000 - 02:10:02.000

Could I tell you that Janet Reno is going to help us build the WASP Museum? I bet you she would, and she would be the best one you could ever get. She is a wonderful person. She is just a wonderful person, and it just makes me so sad when people make any kind of remark about her not doing her job right or anything.

02:10:02.000 - 02:10:16.000

It's absolutely, she is absolutely the first role model as far as I know. She has already told us she will. That's wonderful. I cannot believe it. Well, I can believe it because I just know how she is.

02:10:16.000 - 02:10:29.000

We're excited. Yeah. Let me ask you your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran. Well, you know, I thought it was wonderful that she did all these things, and I didn't have anything against,

02:10:29.000 - 02:10:45.000

I never didn't even know enough to know any different. I just think it's remarkable that she got it at that time and got things going and that we were there. It's absolutely remarkable. I don't know what else to say.

02:10:45.000 - 02:11:05.000

Fran, for children in future generations that will be watching you and listening to your voice, what message would you like to leave them that might encourage or motivate or inspire them? What would you say to them? Oh, my goodness.

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I don't know. They just have to try to be interested in things and find what they like to do and then do it, you know. But try to find things. There's so many things that need to be done and can be done that are wonderful and exciting, and they should just, that you have to be thinking about it a little bit.

02:11:27.000 - 02:11:53.000

You can't just let it come and hit you. You've got to be flexible enough to say, "Well, this is what I like to do," and work hard enough, and you can do it. You know, I just think they can do it if they want to, but you've got to get a goal that you like to do, that you need. I think it's so important that they have something they want to do.

02:11:53.000 - 02:12:15.000

Sometimes they don't stay in flying, even though they were in my class or something. They stay in flying, and I see them, and they're still happy because they found something, what they want to do. But that gave them a start, something that they did, and they did it good, and maybe they went on another track, but it's still what they -- they had a chance to do something else.

02:12:15.000 - 02:12:38.000

I don't know. I'm not very good at that, to tell you about that, because I didn't plan anything. It just happened. I took advantage of what happened, I guess. Is there anything that I have left out of your life that you would like to tell us, share with the future generations? Well, you know, you just don't have that much time.

02:12:38.000 - 02:13:00.000

I could tell you a lot of things. I'm just happy that you came and talked to me, and I really appreciate what you're doing, which I haven't done, so I think it's wonderful that you all are doing this. We just appreciate so much getting your story.

02:13:00.000 - 02:13:15.000

And for those children in future generations, I'm going to thank you, because I think you are a great inspiration. It's just the business. You've got to get the phone while you're saying goodbye. Here she is. You're wonderful people, Donna. My gosh, yeah.

02:13:15.000 - 02:13:22.000

Thank you. That was so sweet. We have so many miles to go. Well, I think that's part of it.

02:13:22.000 - 02:13:31.000

We would like to be able to be in Gainesville tonight. Oh, yes, and that's a long drive. Oh, my, yes. Let me help you with this, because --

02:13:31.000 - 02:13:36.000

Oh, no, you do it. I'm going to turn off the light. I'll start doing this, and you -- Fred, if you --