00:00:01.940 - 00:00:10.400

Track, it's just me and you, so we don't care. >> All right. >> I'm back there too, but you're supposed to forget that I'm back there. >> All right, yeah.

00:00:10.560 - 00:00:22.340

>> More or less. I'm gonna close this cuz I'm hearing that. Refrigerator. She does rugs like you do.

00:00:22.340 - 00:00:27.960

>> Yeah. >> Mom does that too, she puts rugs over there. >> Yeah. >> Do you want me to get, cuz you've got, your face is glowing.

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Let me get you a towel here. Just get one of those Kleenex things. Yeah. Just so you're not shiny.

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So you thought we wouldn't make it. Well. Well, you know, it takes a lot to get everything together. Plus, you know, we go to work every day.

00:00:57.080 - 00:01:12.340

I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Florine Phillips Maloney. She was a WASP, class 44W4. We are in her home at Pompano Beach, Florida.

00:01:13.080 - 00:01:33.020

Today is the 4th of May, 2003. The videographer is Nancy Parrish. Okay, Florine, if you'll give us your full name. My full name, Florine Phillips Carly Scaife.

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Hell and there were a couple more. [Laughter] That was great, Florine. Sorry.

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And your last name now? My last name now is Maloney. Okay, when and where were you born Florine? I was born in Chicago, Illinois Nobody's ever heard of this place. I

00:02:02.520 - 00:02:18.560

Kid you not everybody that I'm met In the wasp was either born in California or the East Coast And what's your birthday my birth date you

00:02:19.520 - 00:02:38.920

Shame on you. You know if you don't want to give it that's fine. I don't January 14th 1920 good right now. We're proud of it, right? Yeah Okay, Florey. Tell me about your mother. What was your mother like? Oh, she was a terrific person

00:02:40.240 - 00:03:01.840

She absolutely great. I should be I Should hope to be like her She, during the Depression, she supported all three of us. I had two siblings.

00:03:04.200 - 00:03:29.280

And we went to the University of Chicago, all of us, where she had gone. I had a very happy childhood. I grew up, my mother had two sisters and among them, the three of them, there were ten children, grandchildren.

00:03:31.880 - 00:03:45.600

So this is, I grew up with really nine brothers and sisters. Well, yeah, that's right. Tell me about your dad. I don't know much about my father.

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How did your mother support you children? She was a fine arts major. She didn't draw, but she lectured. That's how she supported me.

00:04:09.950 - 00:04:27.380

I still have some of her. Did she do this for the university or for a private company? No, this was just an interest. Do you recall your grandparents?

00:04:28.040 - 00:04:40.580

Yes, my grandmother, yes. She was the matriarch. There were two sisters, twins. That's sort of interesting.

00:04:41.500 - 00:05:13.760

She had twin sisters that lived to be ninety years old. Among the three of them, the three daughters, girls, they had ten children. We lived across the street from one another. In the summer we spent in Lower Michigan at our grandmother's summer home, all of us.

00:05:15.800 - 00:05:25.640

Was your grandfather alive at that time? No, never knew my grandfather. What would you do when you would visit your grandmother? What would I do?

00:05:25.780 - 00:05:39.960

Uh-huh. Would you swim a lot? Yes. right on the lake and we would go and pick wildflowers and we that was the

00:05:40.080 - 00:06:03.780

heart of the fruit belt it in those days and so we had lots of fresh fruits and I don't know and I think about the children I guess we fought a lot there There were three girls and seven boys. My brother was the eldest.

00:06:06.440 - 00:06:17.200

My sister was next to the youngest. Ah, that's an interesting thing. My sister was also a WASP. Oh wow.

00:06:17.690 - 00:06:23.020

Okay. She was class of '44. Nine. Okay.

00:06:23.020 - 00:06:44.000

Okay, when we get to the WASP I'll ask you about her. Your grandmother, how did your grandmother support herself? I don't know, I guess she inherited. When all of your children would go, did she have rooms, did she have beds for all of you?

00:06:44.060 - 00:06:59.760

Yes. And as we grew older, the one family that had five children rented the house across the lane. So they might just as well have been at our house

00:06:59.980 - 00:07:14.620

because we were all together. - Describe your grandmother's house. Was it a two story? - In town, she had an apartment

00:07:14.620 - 00:07:33.580

And eventually when she got to the point where she couldn't handle that, she moved in across the street with the other daughter. Miller was their name. But she also had a country home.

00:07:33.900 - 00:07:50.180

But she had this summer home. I do not know how she bought it, I guess. They must have had some money. I did not know.

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I was too young. And your other grandparents, did you know them? No. Tell me about your siblings.

00:08:02.940 - 00:08:30.500

Arne was five years older and Rosalie was a year and a half younger than I. At one time when I joined the WASP, somebody said to my mother, "Aren't you worried that all three of them are flying?" She said, "No."

00:08:30.500 - 00:08:37.220

When you would go down, you and your cousins, to spend time at the grandparents, would your mother go? Yes. Okay.

00:08:37.960 - 00:08:50.960

What did you learn from that grandmother? Did she teach you to cook or to sew? Well, I am thinking now. That is a long time ago, you know.

00:08:56.460 - 00:09:21.180

No I think she just taught us to be patient with one another. Florene, when you were growing up, what was a Christmas like in your home? Oh wild, wild. When we were very little, we believed in Santa Claus.

00:09:28.720 - 00:09:54.380

Now that I think about it, the way the parents got around it was, they said, "We'll help Santa Claus put the Christmas tree up." And when we would come downstairs the next morning, it would be trimmed. Somebody trimmed it, little elves.

00:09:55.900 - 00:10:15.540

Anyway, that's the way we—of course, my brother was in on it. He was five years older. Do you remember a special Christmas that you got something really special? Yes.

00:10:18.740 - 00:10:39.660

We were always called the little girls because my sister was just a year and a half younger. And we got baby dolls. I still have my doll with a china head. I mean, they didn't have plastic in those days.

00:10:43.940 - 00:11:04.720

Mine was dressed in blue and Rosalie's was dressed in pink. Why I don't know. I always got the blue. But they had—everything was handmade.

00:11:05.800 - 00:11:26.140

None of this store-bought stuff. What would you do for Christmas dinner? Would your grandmother come? No, we would go—when we were very little, grandmother lived in—we called her Granny—lived

00:11:26.240 - 00:12:04.620

an apartment on the south side near the university. We lived in Beverly Hills. We all came, all ten of us and the husbands and wives. When somebody called "Mother," everybody answered.

00:12:11.180 - 00:12:18.580

What else can I tell you? And you would all go to your grandmother's house? Yes, we would all go to Grandmother's house. Who would do the cooking?

00:12:20.320 - 00:12:51.200

I guess Granny and the three daughters. Do you remember the Christmas dinner, what the dinner would be? Too much. I remember one time, it was at the Miller's across the street from us, and the boys brought

00:12:51.280 - 00:13:23.860

the bathroom scale down into the front hall and put all the names on it and weighed everybody. Of course the trick was, with the boys, was to see who could increase the most. But they even got Granny on the scales. And one time when she came—how was I there?

00:13:24.680 - 00:13:51.380

Well, I don't remember, but I was. But when Iron was flying, he got her up in a plane. By then she must have been seventy, maybe older than that. Did she like it?

00:13:52.160 - 00:14:08.260

Well, she was very proud. Were you ever able to take her up? No. When did you go to the first grammar school?

00:14:14.000 - 00:14:34.900

Was it close enough to walk or how did you get there? We walked but it was a long ways. It was a brand new school and I remember my mother had to get special dispensation for us to go to Southerland because there was an older grammar school nearer.

00:14:36.820 - 00:14:51.400

What the hell, the name of it, Vanderpool. But anyway, Southerland was where I went to school. It was a better school? New, more modern and newer.

00:14:53.040 - 00:15:11.080

What would you do in the wintertime in Chicago when there would be so much snow? How would you get to school? I guess our father drove us. Do you remember any of your teachers that might have made an impression on you when

00:15:11.120 - 00:15:37.320

you were in elementary school? Yes, a fifth grade teacher, her name was Espy, Mrs. Espy, and she had a wart, a mole with a hair sticking out. That's what I remember.

00:15:39.690 - 00:15:53.800

You asked me. Was she strict, disciplinarian? I do not really remember. Do you remember how children were corrected in school if they were naughty, how they were

00:15:53.900 - 00:16:02.180

punished? I am thinking. I was never naughty. No.

00:16:02.600 - 00:16:15.700

Of course not. No, I honestly do not remember. When you finished elementary school, did that go through sixth grade? Eighth grade.

00:16:16.880 - 00:16:30.380

When you finished elementary, then did you have to change school buildings? Yes, then we went to high school. That was really growing up. How far was the high school and how did you get there?

00:16:31.220 - 00:16:46.160

We took the train, a local train. And it was a long ways away. And all this time your mother was working? Yes.

00:16:47.180 - 00:17:12.100

When you would come home after school and your mother was away, what would you do? How would you occupy your time? Well, I probably, I really don't remember much about it, but I think very often I went to somebody else's house to play and I never felt neglected.

00:17:15.200 - 00:17:38.520

When you were growing up, say at Christmas time, did you attend any activities connected with Christmas, for example, pageants or anything at a church? Oh yes. Do you ever recall being in a Christmas play or pageant?

00:17:39.200 - 00:18:14.680

Yes I do. Well, I really can't. Was your mother active in the church? Vickie: I don't know quite how to say this.

00:18:18.540 - 00:18:53.400

Within my recollection, she was a Christian scientist, so they didn't make a big thing about Christmas. When you were in high school, what was your favorite subject? Well, it was not math.

00:18:58.300 - 00:19:26.260

History probably. Do you recall any favorite teacher in high school? No, I remember one I did not like. I sat in the front row and my name is Florine but he insisted on calling me Lorraine and

00:19:26.340 - 00:19:44.300

I would not answer. I mean, we did not get along very well. What kind of student were you in high school? On a scale of one to ten, maybe like an eight.

00:19:44.980 - 00:19:55.320

Good. Do you remember, recall any extracurricular activities? Were you into sports? No, I was into journalism.

00:19:57.240 - 00:20:04.840

Did you have a school newspaper? Yes. And did you help with that? Yes, and the annual.

00:20:08.860 - 00:20:35.100

I think one reason why I liked working on the annual was when I got to be a senior, We got out of school. We used that as an excuse. When you were in high school, what was your social activities like?

00:20:36.160 - 00:20:54.480

Did you have a special boyfriend? No, but we had sororities. The sorority I belonged to was D.U.C. Don't ask me what it stood for.

00:20:57.220 - 00:21:12.800

I just remember D.U.C. but that was the one. Capital T, capital... Anyway, you know. And what did the sorority mainly do?

00:21:12.920 - 00:21:25.240

Did they do projects? Did they volunteer for stuff? No, I think in high school it was mostly social. Would they have special dances?

00:21:25.600 - 00:21:37.140

Yes. Were you a good dancer? I don't know. In high school, who were your role models?

00:21:39.220 - 00:21:53.380

Who did you look up to? You mean other students or? Whatever, your mother, your grandmother, your principal? Well, I have to think about that.

00:21:56.620 - 00:22:07.920

Probably my mother. Maybe my cousin. I have one girl cousin. What made her special, Florine?

00:22:12.320 - 00:22:35.240

She was older than I by about a year and a half or two years. She had four brothers, so I thought she was pretty special. Vicky: When you were in high school, what was your goal? What did you want to be?

00:22:37.580 - 00:22:54.020

Oh heavens, I changed every year. I wanted to go to college. I mean I knew I was going to go to college. It was just a foregone conclusion because everybody in my family went.

00:22:54.420 - 00:23:15.400

When I was a freshman in college there were eight of us, all related. cousins and that sort of thing. Did you have a high school prom? Yes.

00:23:16.560 - 00:23:39.160

Do you remember who you went with? I can remember some boys, but I don't remember which one. Then, when you graduated, what was your graduation like? Did you have caps and gowns?

00:23:39.160 - 00:24:02.620

We had caps and gowns, and we thought we were the cat's whiskers. The summer after you graduated, what did you do that summer? Did you know that you were going to enter college then? How did you decide on which college you would go to?

00:24:03.080 - 00:24:23.740

In my family, everybody went to the University of Chicago. And that summer before you went to the university, did you work or did you spend it at your grandmother's? You know, I can't remember. I honestly can't remember.

00:24:24.130 - 00:24:36.660

Okay. When you went to college, where did you live? At first I lived at home. It wasn't very far, a few miles.

00:24:38.640 - 00:25:09.380

And then eventually I guess I lived in a dorm at school on campus. Did you make lasting friendships with anyone while you were in college that are still friends? Well, you know, when you are eighty years old, it is pretty hard. Right.

00:25:11.620 - 00:25:37.200

What stands out in your mind about college? What did you really enjoy about going to college? Being a part of the group, and my cousin, my girl cousin, was the same. We didn't have sororities at the University of Chicago, we had clubs.

00:25:39.720 - 00:26:08.120

We belonged to the same club. I liked the activities, the campus activities, and the fact that my family all, when there was an interfraternity sing, my brother and my cousins and my uncle were all part of, all participated.

00:26:10.680 - 00:26:37.040

Did you pursue journalism while you were in college? No. I only went two years. At that time, the university had a—I don't know what they called it.

00:26:47.460 - 00:27:38.220

There were four major groups, the social sciences and the physical sciences and a couple others. You had to go through all four of those before you went on. About that time came World War II and my mother ran out of money. It was time for Rosalie to have a chance at college, so I stepped aside and she went on.

00:27:38.800 - 00:27:51.600

And eventually she became a WASP. So, when you dropped out or when you had finished two years, then what did you do? Did you get a job? Yes.

00:27:52.120 - 00:28:14.800

Then I went to Brant and Stratton Business College and I became a stenotypist. And I was pretty good at it. My instructor wanted me to be a court reporter. I did not want to do that, but that is what I did.

00:28:15.690 - 00:28:35.300

And at that time did you go back and live at home? Were you the only child at home then? Yes, because my brother was off. He went to West Point and Rosalie got married.

00:28:37.360 - 00:28:47.420

Is that right? Yeah, maybe not in that order. How proud were you of that brother? Oh very proud.

00:28:49.560 - 00:29:12.300

I mean that was really something. That's one of the best experiences that I had as a young lady, was going to West Point And dating those gorgeous men, wow. How often did you get to go?

00:29:13.500 - 00:29:35.000

Well, fairly regularly. I really did not, I do not know, but often, enough. Did your mother also go to West Point? Yes.

00:29:35.200 - 00:29:44.220

And especially when your brother graduated. Did all the cousins come? He did not graduate. He was found, that is what they call it when they kick him out.

00:29:45.760 - 00:30:08.520

He could not speak foreign languages. She was very disappointed. He went—he transferred—that's not the word that you use—he went from West Point to the service to someplace in Texas.

00:30:14.180 - 00:30:22.360

Was it to an Army base? Yeah. Could it be Fort Hood? No, not Fort Hood.

00:30:23.160 - 00:30:39.520

He's right in San Antonio. Anyway, he went into the Air Force. Was it Randolph? Well, he went to Randolph.

00:30:43.280 - 00:31:05.100

Did he go ever into pilot training? That is what he went into, pilot training. Eventually, did he graduate from pilot training? No.

00:31:07.080 - 00:31:44.100

When we graduated in May of '44, he came to our graduation. And someplace I have a picture of my mother and my brother in uniform and me in uniform and Rosalie in her... She was the only picture I have of all four of us.

00:31:46.080 - 00:32:14.540

Let me take you back to when you were working in Chicago. Where were you when you heard about Pearl Harbor and how did that change your life? I have to think. I was visiting a cousin at West Point and we were in the, what's the big hotel at West

00:32:14.540 - 00:32:34.640

Point? I don't know. We were at dinner at noontime and the place exploded with the news because of course all All the cadets, they were all set to go off to win the war.

00:32:37.980 - 00:32:56.140

I had forgotten about that. But that is where I was, West Point. Wow. When and where were you when you first saw an airplane that made you want to learn to

00:32:56.300 - 00:33:25.620

fly that airplane? I don't know, because it's all tied in with my brother flying. I don't know if I saw airplanes before he went to West Point. We had a cousin who went to West Point and this was my mother's ambition, was for him

00:33:25.700 - 00:33:53.080

to—because I remember she would never let him play high school football for fear he'd break a bone and then he wouldn't be eligible, wouldn't be acceptable. She always wanted him to go to West Point. Do you recall what Senator recommended him or how he got in West Point?

00:34:02.240 - 00:34:12.440

No, I do not. I honestly do not remember the details. I know it was very hard to get in. There was somebody, but I do not remember who.

00:34:13.820 - 00:34:35.760

Vicky: When do you recall that you first decided you wanted to learn to fly? What did you do about it? My brother came back to Chicago. I was working for American Airlines at Midway.

00:34:39.720 - 00:34:59.080

My brother came back and said, "Why don't you learn to fly? You've got all this money." Which wasn't very much. All this time I was working midnight to eight or four to midnight or something, but I had

00:34:59.080 - 00:35:20.280

a lot of daylight hours. I thought anything my brother suggested would be great. So that's really how I got started. There was a little airport on the way out between my house and Midway called Ashburn

00:35:20.280 - 00:35:47.240

Field with cinder runways and nothing, just a couple of makeshift hangers. My instructor was Opal Anderson and someplace I ran across her name, someplace, so she must have been something. She was...

00:35:47.780 - 00:36:04.580

Wasn't that unusual for a woman to be an instructor? Well, I don't know whether it was unusual, but she was an unusual person. What did you do? What was your job at American Airlines? Reservations.

00:36:05.300 - 00:36:23.180

Okay. And then you started learning to fly. Do you recall what aircraft you first flew? Not really. Probably Piper Club. Okay. Do you recall your solo?

00:36:24.720 - 00:36:43.080

Oh, yes. I was scared to death. But I said to myself, "Other people do it, so I will. I can, too." What did your mother say when you told her you were going to take flying lessons? She was all for it.

00:36:43.920 - 00:37:01.860

She thought that was great. She was just sorry that she could not join me. Do you recall your solo flight? Did anything out of the usual happen?

00:37:01.980 - 00:37:13.260

No. I was just nervous. Right. During the time that you were learning to fly, did you ever get lost or were you ever

00:37:13.600 - 00:37:27.860

afraid? Never. In WASP training, I guess I got lost a couple of times, but I was never afraid. What kind of a lady was Opal?

00:37:30.200 - 00:37:39.700

Was she single? Or? Biddley: Yeah, I do not know. She has been around a long time.

00:37:43.380 - 00:37:52.200

That describes it. Cambridge. And you would go out and fly and then you would work at night? Biddley: Yeah.

00:37:55.320 - 00:38:13.520

Do you recall how you heard about training to train women to fly military aircraft? Diven: The WASP? Yes. I was transferred to Dallas from Chicago, from Midway.

00:38:15.300 - 00:38:33.840

A little girl about my size who worked across the terminal with Braniff came to say goodbye and I said, "Where are you going?" And she said, "I am going to be a wasp." I said, "What is that?"

00:38:36.540 - 00:38:49.560

So I made application. When you were learning to fly in Chicago, were there any other girls also learning to fly with you? Biddy: I was not aware of it.

00:38:49.940 - 00:39:01.920

There must have been some, but I wasn't aware of them. Jewelly: By the time you heard about, when this friend told you, did you have enough hours to apply? Biddy: Yes, I did.

00:39:03.320 - 00:39:31.380

Do you recall what happened after you applied? I had to take a physical at Love Field, which was the fifth ferry group. I was so afraid I would not be tall enough. They give you a strip and they give you a sheet to put over it.

00:39:31.420 - 00:39:46.400

So I stood on my tiptoes to make sure I was tall enough. Were you interviewed by anybody? I must have been, but I do not remember. Nothing stands out.

00:39:46.990 - 00:40:02.000

Did you have to take a written test of some kind? I do not recall. Okay. What did your mother say about your applying to enter this training?

00:40:02.920 - 00:40:17.800

She thought it was great. Of course, my brother was all for it. After you applied, then how long did you have to wait before you actually entered training? Was that several months or?

00:40:18.720 - 00:40:24.560

Weeks. At least weeks. It might have been months. Okay.

00:40:25.240 - 00:40:30.000

It might have been months. I don't remember. Okay. Okay, Nancy has to change the tape.

00:40:30.300 - 00:40:35.940

We're out of first tape. Okay. How are you doing? Fine.

00:40:37.560 - 00:40:45.520

[Audio break] Now that we've got your e-mail address right. They're going to change it practically next week. Oh, really?

00:40:45.860 - 00:40:57.060

Well, just let us know. Yeah, I'll let you know. Okay. Once you took your physical, then how were you notified to report for training?

00:41:05.940 - 00:41:31.560

It must have been a—I got a telegram, but I can't remember whether that telegram had to do with when I should report or whether I mix it up with when I was getting married. When you knew that you had been accepted, did you go back home then or did you stay in Dallas?

00:41:31.610 - 00:41:57.160

I was at home for me then, so I stayed. I did not go back to Chicago. So in the meantime did you meet some girls who were also? My cousin, my girl cousin, PJ, her name was Purses Jane, she was sharing an apartment

00:41:57.380 - 00:42:21.940

with me on Holland Avenue. I don't know why 2912 sticks in my mind, 2912 Holland Avenue, but I could be mixing up with 2912 Marine Street, which was where I lived my freshman year in high school. So I don't know.

00:42:22.880 - 00:42:53.880

But anyway, she, after I was accepted for WASP training, she joined the Navy. How long was it after you were accepted before your sister decided she wanted to do that? I do not really know. I know that she went through the college program.

00:42:53.880 - 00:42:58.840

CPT? CPT. At the University of Chicago? Yes.

00:42:59.200 - 00:43:06.200

Okay. How did you get to Sweetwater? Did you go on the train? Yes.

00:43:07.080 - 00:43:23.160

Oh, what a ride. Describe what that was like. Dusty and rattly. Had you ever been to West Texas before?

00:43:26.140 - 00:43:41.040

Well, I don't know. I don't think so. When you got to Sweetwater on the train, describe what that town looked like to you. It was nothing.

00:43:42.220 - 00:44:13.280

Nothing. And I got off the train and there were some other girls my age, I thought, and one of them and they heard us all alphabetically, right? And I was Phillips and the next gal was, or maybe she was just ahead of me, was Parker.

00:44:14.040 - 00:44:36.940

And that's how Peggy Parker, Echols and I became such good friends. Do you recall how you got from downtown Sweetwater out to the training base where you were to train? Steele: Yeah, a rally old bus, just sides, no top on it.

00:44:37.820 - 00:45:05.320

When you got out to Avenger Field, do you recall seeing all the airplanes and how did you feel? You know, I was so excited, I don't think I have an impression at all. I was absolutely... Overwhelmed. Yeah, overwhelmed, right.

00:45:05.820 - 00:45:27.940

Okay, Florine, when you entered this training, what did you think it was for and what would you be doing if you successfully completed it? What did I think it was for? To replace combat pilots.

00:45:33.500 - 00:46:03.060

Do you know why they decided to train women to fly military aircraft? Well, they were running out of young men. When you got out to Avenger and were assigned your B, tell me about your B mates. What were they like?

00:46:04.120 - 00:46:24.920

Vicky Redmond Well, they were absolute, utter strangers to me. But one of them, named Parker, seemed to be very nice, blind, a little overweight I thought. Campbell What was the biggest adjustment that you

00:46:25.040 - 00:46:45.260

had to make when you went into training? I do not know that I made any adjustments. Was it the hours you had to fly or the food you had to eat? What was hard?

00:46:45.460 - 00:47:08.540

Was anything hard for you? No, it did not bother me at all to have to do things by the numbers. I kind of liked that regimentation. Tell me what your bay was like.

00:47:11.020 - 00:47:29.700

Was that hard to live with that many girls in one room? No, I did not have any trouble, any problems. What do you recall about that bay that was different from your bedroom? Well, it was pretty barren.

00:47:31.480 - 00:47:49.240

You only could have so much. And then there was that Snoopy captain who came around every Saturday morning to meet you. And here's a funny thing I remember.

00:47:50.440 - 00:48:19.620

We could only have one photograph, but I had two or three because I was getting married. And so Peggy put one on her locker and I had one of mine and somebody else had another one. And the guy goes, this captain, what was his name?

00:48:20.070 - 00:48:33.680

I don't remember. Well, you probably had a different, because you were on a different flight. But obviously the picture was the same person. He did not have it figured out.

00:48:36.320 - 00:49:09.640

Let me go back and ask you where you met this young man that you were going to marry. He lived just a few blocks away. He was stationed at Dallas, at Love Field. Eventually I met his roommate and the roommate introduced Bob and me.

00:49:12.060 - 00:49:20.060

Was he Air Force? Well, yeah, I guess he was. What was he doing at Love Field? Was he a pilot?

00:49:20.440 - 00:49:50.780

Yes, he was a pilot. He was flying the hump. He was flying from Natal to Belem and back. And so you dated him while you were working for American Airlines.

00:49:52.120 - 00:50:01.860

And when did he ask you to marry him? While you were still there? Yeah. And then he went off to fly the hump and you went to Avenger.

00:50:04.960 - 00:50:21.020

What was a typical day like when you were in flying training? What would happen? We'd get up at the crack of dawn and it would be colder than Billy Be Damned. This was November, December.

00:50:23.960 - 00:50:48.800

So we got dressed fast. And depending on which flight we were, we had ground school in the morning and some kind of flight training in the afternoon and vice versa. Tell me what ground school was like.

00:50:52.160 - 00:51:18.900

Oh, all sorts of things that were absolutely strangers to me. I did not know anything about it, but I figured other people did it, so I guess I could. Do you remember one particular course that was difficult? Mechanics, maybe mechanics.

00:51:22.400 - 00:51:45.660

Morse code? That was no problem because I had been exposed to that as a Girl Scout. So I didn't have any problem there. What other things did you have to be involved in?

00:51:45.780 - 00:52:04.280

For example, physical education? Yeah, I really liked that. I knew it was good for me, and I liked the formation marching. I mean, there was a rhythm to it.

00:52:06.540 - 00:52:47.980

And as you marched, what would you do? Would you just march along, or would you sing, or what would you do? When we were learning all these figures, to the rear march, four winds, but going to and from classes in mess hall, we would have—I won't call it singing, but we had rhythmic

00:52:49.160 - 00:53:26.740

little ditties that we marched to in our great big cloud hoppers. Good. Describe the mess hall and what the food was like. I don't remember the mess hall itself. It was noisy. And the food, we were hungry, you know, so we ate.

00:53:30.620 - 00:54:03.960

What were the expectations as far as being in the military? In my family, this was something that I guess I expected it. I was looking forward to it. I was really disappointed when they yanked the rug out from under us.

00:54:05.460 - 00:54:25.880

During the time you were in training, did you have time off to go into Sweetwater? Oh yes. Yes, but I don't remember how often. I really don't remember how often.

00:54:28.100 - 00:54:50.420

Did you meet any of the citizens of Sweetwater? Uh-huh. And a particular couple, and I thought I would never forget their name, but I have, began with a C, but I don't remember the name.

00:54:51.570 - 00:55:13.280

They were very nice to us. We even went and had meals sometimes with them. Were they an older couple? Well, they were.

00:55:15.920 - 00:55:36.440

Not that I look back. They were probably in their late thirties or early forties. That era. Did they live in town?

00:55:37.000 - 00:56:06.240

Yeah, they had a house, but no children, and they were just interested in the WASP. I guess that was their way of participating. Would it be just maybe you and Peggy, or would they have several? No, mostly it was just Peggy and Florine.

00:56:10.440 - 00:56:31.220

Out at Sweetwater, what was the first airplane that you flew? Oh wow, I think it must have been a Fairchild. Do you remember how you felt when you got in that Fairchild? I thought it was so big, but it was not really.

00:56:33.450 - 00:56:49.820

Do you recall your instructor? Yes, very well. I had one of the only two female instructors. The other one was Dot Swain.

00:56:52.620 - 00:57:10.320

My instructor was Jenny Gower. Did you know her? Did you know her name? Well, and I think I was the first in my flight to Seoul.

00:57:11.320 - 00:57:26.440

I thought I was the first in the class, but somebody in your flight said no. I do not know who it was. Did anything special happen to you because you were the first in your flight? Did you get thrown in the wishing well?

00:57:26.500 - 00:57:38.920

Steele: Yes. Oh, yeah. Tell us about what would happen if you were the first one. Steele: Well, everybody is forewarned.

00:57:39.660 - 00:58:02.480

You know it's going to happen. So you try to protect your watch, that's number one. And of course those days we did not have any hair to protect. We tried to drag as many classmates as we could along with us.

00:58:06.240 - 00:58:27.100

Did you get—you did? When you, very shortly after you started flying that Fairchild, they changed airplanes. Then what did you fly? I can remember what it looked like, but I can't remember.

00:58:27.580 - 00:58:35.420

Stearman? Stearman, yeah. Built-in ground loop. Explain what a ground loop is.

00:58:36.360 - 00:59:22.660

Well, you are flying straight and level and a gust of wind comes and takes you off course. And if you are on the ground, you go in a circle. I washed out a brand new AT-6 in Phoenix or Tucson someplace. Oh my God, all hell broke loose in that field.

00:59:27.200 - 01:00:08.600

There was a flight of—I don't know what they were, but big airplanes coming in behind us. We were delivering these brand new—I don't remember too much. I just remember that all of a sudden I am surrounded by fire engines and what a mess.

01:00:09.360 - 01:00:27.220

Did it tear up the wing? Must have, yeah. When you started flying the Stearman, tell me about the auxiliary fields. What did they use those for?

01:00:28.560 - 01:00:44.100

It was for practice. Round and round and round. Did any of your baymates wash out? Yes.

01:00:47.840 - 01:01:07.960

Yes. And we have a, well you probably have a list of them. Do you know why your baymates washed out? They couldn't fly.

01:01:08.980 - 01:01:21.900

And we said about Peggy Martin that she was never going to make it. And she did. They washed her out. She didn't wash out.

01:01:23.170 - 01:01:33.860

She was killed. She had an accident. But we predicted this would happen. Vicki: Was that while you were in training or after?

01:01:33.870 - 01:01:51.360

Flora Huffman: After. Vicki: Do you know how she was killed, Flora? Flora Huffman: No. While you were in training, was there a fatal accident, do you recall?

01:01:52.820 - 01:02:09.560

Mary Housen, yeah. I do not know how I happened to remember that name. It is hard to forget it. I do not really know the details because she was the other flight, she was your flight.

01:02:12.660 - 01:02:38.840

When you finished primary training, did you have some time off? Do you recall going any place or did you stay on the field? I don't recall that we had any time off. Then what was unusual about your class then for the next phase of training?

01:02:40.700 - 01:03:01.060

What did you go into? You go directly then from Stearman's up to the AT-6? No, we flew a BT-15 or BT-13A or something like that. I don't really remember.

01:03:04.280 - 01:03:26.540

What was the BT primarily used for? Instrument. instrument training. Okay. Describe a little bit what instrument training consisted of. Well, you know what being in a closet, that's what it was like.

01:03:27.490 - 01:03:55.720

Be sitting in a closet and having some instructor who can see yelling at you. Oh, they were so mean. I remember there were one in particular. It was really nasty, you know, like we were doing something on purpose.

01:04:00.120 - 01:04:17.360

How did that make you feel? determined than ever that I was going to be it. Let me go back a minute to that stearman. How would you communicate with your instructor in that stearman?

01:04:19.580 - 01:04:29.140

There was no radio. No, there was no radio. It must have been stick movements. Do you remember something called a gossport?

01:04:29.720 - 01:04:50.300

No. Okay. In the BT-13s, when you were learning to fly instruments, then sometimes would you have another WASP who would go up with you and one be observer and one fly?

01:04:54.860 - 01:05:15.960

It seems to me there was, but nothing stands out in my mind. You were there at Christmas time, 1943. What was that like? Well, that's when I got special dispensation to take two days off and go back to Dallas

01:05:15.960 - 01:05:32.460

and get married. I was back in 48 hours. That's no mean trick to make a round trip like that. Who did you have to get that special permission from?

01:05:36.780 - 01:05:50.980

Dee Dee, I think. How did you get from Sweetwater to Dallas? On a bus or a train. Did any of your baymates go with you?

01:05:51.040 - 01:05:57.540

No. You went by yourself? Yes. When you got to Dallas, where did you go?

01:05:58.360 - 01:06:43.400

Well, my mother came down from Chicago and my cousin was there. I mean, she still had the apartment and she had not gone off to join the Navy yet. So now I am thinking. My mother called the Baker Hotel and cried on this guy's shoulder and said, "But

01:06:43.400 - 01:07:36.760

here is a poor WASP trainee." Anyway, she got us a hotel room and she went to the field, Dallas Love Field, and got hold of the chaplain and Bob's commanding officer. Bob was not there. He was out in West Texas someplace trying to get home. Anyway, my mother

01:07:36.760 - 01:08:25.900

arranged it all and I got there and PJ and I had just suits. Mine was beige and hers was blue and my mother got the florist to make little julet caps of flowers. That was my bridal outfit. And Bob got in, I have a whole collection of telegrams back and forth. I should have dragged him out, but I didn't.

01:08:30.420 - 01:08:58.000

And he said, he got to the field, to his field, and got his best friend and said, "Come on, going to be best man at my wedding. So there we were. So where did you get married?

01:09:01.320 - 01:09:14.620

In the chapel, on the face. And then after you were married, then where did you go? Did you go back to the hotel? Yes.

01:09:15.320 - 01:09:53.400

Then we went to—of course in those days it was gasoline, gas rationing—and we borrowed a car and we had enough gas to get Bob back to—me to get to Sweetwater and Bob to get I do not know how it worked, but that was it. We never did have a honeymoon.

01:09:55.550 - 01:10:11.080

Kelly: But you went back out to Avenger and started flying again. McMillan: Yeah. That was it. Kelly: And you did all of that in two days?

01:10:11.230 - 01:10:26.700

McMillan: All of it in two days. On what date was that? >> December 25th, 1943. >> Did you marry on Christmas Day?

01:10:26.700 - 01:10:33.980

>> Yeah. >> Uh-huh. >> That was the only time we had. It was the day before and the day after.

01:10:34.750 - 01:10:55.440

>> Okay. When you went back out to Avenger, then where was your husband stationed, do you recall? When I went back to England, he was stationed at Love Field. Okay, you go back out to Avenger and then you start flying the BTs.

01:10:56.260 - 01:11:12.800

Did anything unusual happen while you were learning to fly instruments? No, but I almost killed my instructor. Tell me about it. I was ready to throttle him.

01:11:15.060 - 01:11:35.160

Is he the one that was so harsh? Did you think at that time he was going to wash you out? I don't think I ever thought. It never occurred to me that I was going to be washed out.

01:11:37.380 - 01:11:55.280

I would not permit it. While you were training at Avenger, were you aware of what the girls were doing who had already graduated? Not really.

01:11:57.360 - 01:12:17.540

Once you finished the basic training in the BT, then what did you fly? Then we went to the T-6s, AT-6, my favorite airplane. What was different about the AT-6? Power.

01:12:23.120 - 01:12:40.900

Do you recall your instructor in AT-6s, was he nicer? Yes he was. I do not really recall him, but I did not have any problems. Gielgud During your '86 training, tell me about

01:12:40.920 - 01:13:04.600

a cross-country that you might have made. Well, I remember for some reason we had to stop. Of course, we all traveled in flights. We had to stop at some place.

01:13:10.380 - 01:13:49.440

And the rest of the flight took off and half of them were left behind and half took off. And I'm in the middle. And I should have stayed with the group that stayed, but I didn't. I went off by myself and I came to this great big, enormous excavation.

01:13:52.420 - 01:14:12.820

It turned out there is a name for this meteorite. I flew down all around, and by the time I got to—oh hell, I can't remember the name of the place. It began with an "F," I thought.

01:14:14.220 - 01:14:35.120

That doesn't sound right. They had all gone up in the town, and I didn't know where they were. I must have eventually hooked up with them, but I do not remember. There is a lot I do not remember.

01:14:40.040 - 01:15:00.460

Anything unusual happen that you have not told us about while you were in training? I told you I washed out the T-6. I am not very proud of it. That was after you graduated, right?

01:15:00.560 - 01:15:05.880

Oh yeah, that was. You are right. In training? Oh no, let me think.

01:15:11.920 - 01:15:25.160

I don't know that there was anything in year view. I just thought everybody else did the same thing. How about night flying, Florine? I loved it.

01:15:25.940 - 01:15:38.560

I never saw such a big moon in my life. It was very exciting. I liked night flying. Never had any problems with it.

01:15:40.500 - 01:15:51.680

You were there in Sweetwater during the winter, but also a little bit in the summertime. Tell me about the weather in the summertime, about the wind and the sand. Oh, yeah. hot.

01:15:54.000 - 01:16:06.380

And I never drank so much Coke in my life. I don't like Coke now. Do you remember where you got that Coke? Did they have a canteen?

01:16:06.540 - 01:16:24.880

Yeah, there must have been something on the flight line because it was readily available. When you first arrived at Avenger and during the first part of your training, tell me about your uniforms and what you flew in. We didn't have any uniform.

01:16:25.510 - 01:16:49.420

We had our own suntans in a white shirt. That was the dress uniform. When it got to be wintertime, they issued fleece-lined flight suits, none of which fit me.

01:16:55.240 - 01:17:13.200

And they were so hard to walk in. I can remember. And trying to climb on the wing of an airplane was impossible. I mean, your legs didn't bend.

01:17:15.220 - 01:17:33.020

Who was that fat girl who we had to hoist her up? Yeah we did. Her favorite song was "Bésame Mucho." She used to sing it.

01:17:35.360 - 01:17:49.160

Peggy would remember who that was. Oh, my mind. It's gone. Then at some point were you issued uniforms?

01:17:49.300 - 01:18:08.260

Tell me about that uniform. Only when we graduated. What were those uniforms like? Very good looking, navy blue slacks and a blouse.

01:18:08.380 - 01:18:33.000

They called it a blouse, but it was a jacket with a belt and a little hardware. And of course we didn't have wings until we graduated. Then we got civil wings. I still have mine.

01:18:34.400 - 01:18:49.680

They're sort of moldy looking. Do you still have yours? Do you recall your graduation? Did you have a speaker or do you remember graduation?

01:18:51.400 - 01:19:10.600

I don't really remember much about it, but it's all in the book. When you graduated, you got orders. Where did your orders say for you to report? Love Field, Fifth Ferry Group, which is what I wanted.

01:19:12.810 - 01:19:40.080

Tell me about your family coming for your graduation. My brother, who was a captain, I don't know what his rank was then, and my sister, who was a trainee, and my mother, who was a civilian, and me. There we are.

01:19:40.640 - 01:20:02.900

And I have a picture of us. Someplace I have a picture. Tell me about your sister entering training. When I got, their class called me "my sister" because that's what Rosalie always said,

01:20:03.120 - 01:20:18.780

"my sister." So they all called me "my sister." Forty-four, nine. She was next to last class.

01:20:20.880 - 01:20:37.780

Do you know why she decided to go into training? Was it because of us? Her brother and her sister. When she was in training, were you able to visit with her very much?

01:20:38.540 - 01:20:55.640

Not much. A couple of times I went around to her bay. I was always busy and she had other... Did she finish the course and graduate also?

01:20:55.680 - 01:21:05.420

Yes. Do you know of any other two sisters who went through training? No. I heard there were.

01:21:06.500 - 01:21:42.780

There were twins someplace after us, but one of them took the place—there was a problem with a personality problem. They switched places and got caught. Do you know what happened then?

01:21:45.620 - 01:21:58.000

They were washed out. I don't, I just, this is just something, rumor. I'm not sure who it was or. Okay.

01:22:01.500 - 01:22:07.540

Oh, change tape? You're all right? Okay, yeah. Yeah.

01:22:08.520 - 01:22:14.640

Okay. When you're at graduation, did your brother wear his uniform? Yes. Yeah.

01:22:15.360 - 01:22:28.020

By that time he was out of flight training. How proud was that brother of his sister? Well, his two sisters. Yeah, well he was pretty proud of us.

01:22:30.080 - 01:22:50.600

Where did your mom stay and your brother when they came to Sweetwater? Now, I don't know where he stayed, but she must have stayed in a hotel. Famous Blue Bonnet. After graduation, did you then go home with your mom?

01:22:55.240 - 01:23:14.620

No. I don't know where she went. Probably back to Chicago. Madge, Leon, and I hitched a ride with my brother and his co-pilot.

01:23:16.120 - 01:23:35.400

They flew us in a B-17 to someplace nearby. Madge would remember. Where did Madge live? Dallas?

01:23:35.400 - 01:24:16.680

Anyway, we got off and I took a train to Dallas, I guess, and Madge, I do not know where she went. Let me ask you, Florine, did your brother fly that B-17 into Avenger? I'm thinking.

01:24:20.840 - 01:24:42.000

I don't think they could. I don't think they had a run of me long enough. But now where did he? Must have been some—maybe Ty or someplace nearby.

01:24:46.160 - 01:25:12.360

Did his co-pilot come to your graduation also? I guess so, yeah. And then what did you do when, did you vacation somewhere then before you reported for duty? No see, no I went to Dallas because Bob was there.

01:25:13.540 - 01:25:33.760

Oh, okay. By then I had a husband, but I want to tell you about getting to Dallas. These two guys trimmed up the plane and then they let Madge and me sit in the pilot's seats.

01:25:34.400 - 01:26:00.120

And they would go back and sit in the back seats and we pretended we were flying. We weren't really flying. It was exciting. In the meantime, between Christmas and May when you graduated, were you able to visit

01:26:00.240 - 01:26:23.440

with your husband? He came, I think he came once or twice to the base, but I never got off the base. When you got over to Love Field, then did he have quarters where you could stay? No, he was always flying.

01:26:24.380 - 01:26:43.260

I mean, the minute he would show up, they would send him off someplace. So I really never, I don't remember too much about that. Okay. Then you reported to Love Field for your assignment, right?

01:26:43.580 - 01:26:56.600

Yeah. To whom did you report? Was it to a WAF or to? I don't remember seeing any other wasps there, but I know there were some.

01:26:59.300 - 01:27:24.120

But I was not aware of them. Kelly: What was your assignment at Love Field? The North American was right nearby, so it was very easy to pick up a plane there and take it someplace, wherever.

01:27:25.360 - 01:27:43.820

These were North American AT-6's? Yeah, my favorite airplane. Do you remember any special ferrying trip that you went on? Yes.

01:27:52.160 - 01:28:42.040

We had to get up to some place in Oklahoma and pick up something. And there were flights of two, two and two and two and two, a pilot and a co-pilot. My pilot was the flight leader. And we all got on the train, we had to take a train up to—and the train stopped and

01:28:42.040 - 01:29:19.980

It was full of men, soldiers. There were three of us, three WASPs. Diffin was one of them, Marge Diffin. And we got as far as from Dallas to Fort Worth, and the train stopped, and all of a sudden

01:29:20.120 - 01:29:58.120

the doors burst open and this train official said, "Get those women out of there." So my flight leader went to explain that we were on assignment, and so they got somebody in a car up ahead. How did this work?

01:29:58.940 - 01:30:27.700

Anyway, the flight leader came back and said, "Okay, you can have these three bunks berths in the next car." Oh, I remember saying, "Oh no, if you think I'm going to sit up all night," that was it.

01:30:28.560 - 01:30:47.840

We were to go up and sit in a coach. And I said, "If you think I'm going to sit up all night and then fly next day, you've got another thing coming." So they went back and conferred some more and that's when they got some Navy people

01:30:51.240 - 01:31:26.040

who were on GI. We had, there were three of us, Diffin and I, and this other gal. And they were upper bunks. I looked over and I saw Diffen like this looking around.

01:31:26.800 - 01:31:55.300

She had big long lashes, big. But anyway, we got there. And then you picked up an airplane there? We picked up several airplanes.

01:31:57.440 - 01:32:02.120

And then ferried them? Someplace else. I forget where. I don't remember where.

01:32:02.780 - 01:32:11.240

Okay. Where did you live when you were stationed at Love? Were you able to live with your husband? No.

01:32:11.960 - 01:32:28.360

Live? I was never there long enough to. We would be in and out. I do not remember ever staying overnight.

01:32:29.760 - 01:32:59.320

I must have, but I do not remember. Were you mainly ferrying AT-6s or did you ferry other airplanes, other types? Well, I only remember the T-6, but because we were so close to the factory, it was— What was the longest trip that you ever made in ferrying?

01:33:04.080 - 01:33:34.220

Did you ever go, for example, to the West Coast to deliver an airplane? Phoenix or Tucson to...no, that wasn't very...I guess that might be the longest...I don't know. I'd have to look in the logbook.

01:33:36.060 - 01:33:48.020

Must have a logbook someplace, but where, I don't know. Florene, when you would deliver an airplane, what would you do with the parachute that you had? Take it with me.

01:33:49.440 - 01:34:19.420

And I hauled more parachutes and that was hard. And how would you get back to your base at Love Field to pick up another airplane? They would send somebody or, I mean, they would send another plane or we would travel Priority 2—no, A as 1.

01:34:22.360 - 01:34:43.060

Had priority one in flying back or coming back. While you were at Love Field, did Ms. Cochran ever visit? Not that I recall. How was the relationship between the WASP and the WAFs, for example, or between the

01:34:43.160 - 01:35:02.740

WASP and the male pilots? I never had any problem, but then everybody knew I was somebody's wife. Okay. Where did you have your meals when you were at Love?

01:35:05.420 - 01:35:16.980

Isn't that funny? I can't remember eating at all. Maybe in the Officer's Club? Well, I must have at one time, but I don't remember.

01:35:18.200 - 01:35:37.240

While you were at Love Field, did you ever get temporary orders to go someplace else or did you stay there the whole time? No. The next orders that I got was when I was sent to Ellington Field.

01:35:38.740 - 01:36:04.820

That was the end of Love Field. Were you the only WASP sent to Ellington or were there others? No, there were two others. One was already there, where she came from I do not know, Barbara Fleming and Hazel Richter.

01:36:06.660 - 01:36:22.560

I do not know why I remember those names. What was your assignment at Ellington? Just utility pilot. We just flew everything, whatever they had, whatever they needed.

01:36:25.680 - 01:36:51.660

A Norton Norseman and all kinds of goofy airplanes. Would you fly administrative personnel to different places? Where did you live at Ellington? There were only three of us, and they had no quarters for females, so by special arrangement

01:36:52.940 - 01:37:33.560

they rented a big, unoccupied summer cottage very close to the base. big old summer home and then they had, there were a major and his wife as chaperones. This major was not really a major, that was a field commission, he was actually a sergeant And she was a sergeant's wife.

01:37:34.380 - 01:37:56.040

Oh boy. Were they strict on you? Well, they kept pretty close tabs. She lined us all up the first day and she said, "No men in the second floor."

01:37:57.520 - 01:38:17.240

And we said, "Okay." While you were there, did your husband get to come down and visit? Yes, occasionally. Were there any other assignments, temporary assignments, that you had while you were there?

01:38:18.300 - 01:38:35.500

Did you go to Orlando to that OCS training? No, we never had any other assignments. We were not there long enough. How were you notified that the WASP were going to be disbanded?

01:38:48.240 - 01:39:17.360

I guess we—I really don't remember. I remember reading about it in the newspaper. I remember—I remember—honestly, I don't remember. I am an old lady.

01:39:18.980 - 01:39:30.920

No. When the Wasps were disbanded, did Ellington Field do anything special for you? Not a thing. They just said goodbye.

01:39:33.080 - 01:39:48.580

How did it make you feel when you knew that we were going to be disbanded? I was disappointed. In fact, I thought, "How can they do this? Why have they spent all this money to train us?

01:39:51.380 - 01:40:00.520

Now they don't want us." And when you were disbanded, where did you go? That was just before Christmas. Yeah, then I went back to Chicago.

01:40:02.100 - 01:40:32.420

At that point, where was your husband? Oh, I went, let me think, no I did not go to Chicago, I went to Florida where I could claim residence because of him and I got a divorce. Was that because he was gone so much?

01:40:32.730 - 01:40:47.540

You weren't around him? We just fell out of love, I guess. The enchantment was gone. And then after you were divorced, where did you go?

01:40:47.980 - 01:41:00.540

Then I went to Chicago. Did you live with your mom? Yes. And we spent almost two years in Italy with the Red Cross.

01:41:02.840 - 01:41:12.300

Did some other girl go with you? My sister. Tell me about that Red Cross experience. That was crazy.

01:41:15.980 - 01:41:37.640

It was good. We had a good time. I went all over Italy. I was in a Red Cross club for GIs and Rosalie was with an officer's club in Naples.

01:41:39.320 - 01:41:50.200

We had an apartment. Oh, that was crazy. We had an apartment that sometimes it had windows and holes in the floor and all that sort of thing.

01:41:52.560 - 01:42:37.020

That was after—Naples had been hit hard when the Allied forces moved north. You could walk on the hulls of overturned ships in the harbor at Naples. That's how heavy the bombardment was. Anyway we were there twenty months, I guess, almost two years.

01:42:37.740 - 01:42:58.640

And what was your main job with the Red Cross? Running a GI club, recreational club. Were there a lot of girls who were there with you in the Red Cross? Some, not a lot.

01:43:01.400 - 01:43:21.980

Did you get to travel quite a bit? Yes. What did you love about Italy? The people and the scenery, the scenery was pretty shabby, but the people were—of course

01:43:23.620 - 01:43:58.200

they were glad to see Americans after what they'd been through. And I made a friend, an Italian woman, Rosa Collini. Several years after I went back to Italy with my husband, I forget what husband, and looked her up.

01:44:00.380 - 01:44:14.940

And she was still there. Tell me what it was like to run a club. What did you do? Was this on a base?

01:44:15.340 - 01:44:37.520

No, this was in Naples proper, where GIs could come and sit and read. Or have—drink coffee and donuts. Oh, donuts. Do you like donuts today?

01:44:37.760 - 01:45:08.700

I can't look at a donut, even though I know they're better made than they used to be. Oh, wow. But it was a big club and there was lots to do for GIs. I used to, every now and then, once a week, I'd walk around the club and say, "Okay,

01:45:08.860 - 01:45:36.340

all you guys sitting around reading comic books, go out and get in that personnel carrier." And I'd drive them out to, oh hell, what's the name of the place? You know that excavate, not Herculaneum. My memory.

01:45:36.770 - 01:45:43.040

My memory. Parthenon? No. You don't know Italy?

01:45:43.810 - 01:45:49.600

You got to go sometime. All I can think of is the Parthenon. No, no, no. That's Greece.

01:45:51.760 - 01:46:06.100

That's how much I know about Italy. But I take them out to the ruins and show them the ruins. Coliseum? No.

01:46:06.460 - 01:46:10.340

No. I give up. It will come. It will come to me.

01:46:12.660 - 01:46:39.560

Did you make some lasting friendships with some of those GIs? They did not last, but yes. What was your social life like outside of running the club? We were the only white women, you know, American girls.

01:46:41.140 - 01:46:56.680

So anything that happened, we got included. Did you meet anybody special there? No. Then did you and your sister come back to the States together?

01:46:59.140 - 01:47:29.500

How did that happen? Yes. We came home and Rosalie got married and I had the divorce. I went to work and I think she worked for a while.

01:47:32.440 - 01:47:47.880

Who did you work for? Did you go back to the airlines? No. Blanc-Nox, big construction equipment, a Pittsburgh outfit.

01:47:51.020 - 01:48:27.960

Did you live at home again? Yes, I think maybe I did for a while. I had to do something or go nuts, so I enrolled in a course at the Art Institute, which was right across the Michigan Boulevard from my office.

01:48:28.560 - 01:48:59.300

And there I met a young woman also. And we found an apartment on North Michigan Boulevard, very swank address. That lasted for a while, but not long. How long did you go to school, to the art school?

01:49:02.880 - 01:49:15.120

Not long, less than a year. And what did you do with that knowledge and that talent? Nothing. It was just to pass the time.

01:49:20.160 - 01:49:50.540

What was your social life like when you were going to school and working? Well, I met a man, my uncle introduced us, and I married him. Okay. Florine, what qualities did he have that made you fall in love and marry him?

01:49:54.300 - 01:50:18.300

Well, he had a fifteen-year-old daughter, so he must have been—I don't know quite how to answer that question. What appealed to you? He had things in common.

01:50:18.680 - 01:50:39.140

He had an airplane and I had wings. Did you and he fly together? Did you take trips together? Yes.

01:50:42.160 - 01:50:50.220

When you married him, did he have a home? Did you move in? Yes. And a daughter, a 15-year-old daughter.

01:50:52.320 - 01:51:07.680

I had just signed... You must have done this too. They gave you a commission. I didn't do it.

01:51:07.980 - 01:51:36.740

Oh, you didn't? Well, I did. But it didn't last very long because I had no sooner got my hardware and my first lieutenants, bars, when I get a notification from the government that we don't want you because you are the

01:51:36.500 - 01:51:58.640

The parent of, what is the legal term, in loco parentis of a minor child. Patty was fifteen at the time. So anyway, they did not want me. I said, "Poo to you."

01:51:58.640 - 01:52:26.460

What did this man do? What was -- did he have a company? His name was Carly, Tom Carly. He was vice president and treasurer of some big mattress company.

01:52:26.800 - 01:52:37.380

England, no not Englander, but something like that. Sylie? No, I don't remember. What did he use the airplane for?

01:52:38.220 - 01:52:50.060

Just fun. What kind of airplane was it? A Stinson, a Stinson Voyager. Does that sound right?

01:52:51.140 - 01:52:59.480

Would he let you fly it? Oh yes, I flew. Do you remember any fun trip you took in that airplane? Yes, I do.

01:53:00.580 - 01:53:18.580

One time we went to the Kentucky Derby, but we did not have reservations because you cannot get a room for love nor money. So we slept under the wing of the plane on the field. About what year was that?

01:53:25.200 - 01:53:52.040

Maybe '47, '48, somewhere in there. Yeah. We graduated in '44, so it would be about '40, maybe it was '50. After you married, did you still work?

01:53:59.840 - 01:54:27.300

What was the next thing you did? At some point. The next thing I did, Tom died just short of our tenth anniversary. And Patty ran off and got married.

01:54:27.440 - 01:54:46.060

Well, that was fine with me. By that time she was twenty-five? Yeah, or twenty-two or three or whatever. Old enough.

01:54:47.970 - 01:55:01.920

And oddly enough, she married a high school sweetheart and they are still married, if they are alive. They live in Naples. I should call her.

01:55:05.160 - 01:55:14.700

VW: So what did you do as a widow? BB: Nothing. Well, wait a minute. That's not true.

01:55:16.920 - 01:55:37.000

Where are we? Tom died. And we had just moved from Chicago to Hinsdale, Illinois, and built a house. And I had these two children.

01:55:45.720 - 01:55:59.740

And so I had a very nice, not happy, but— Dianne Feinberg During that ten years you had then your own two children. Barbara Freeman Yes.

01:56:02.340 - 01:56:26.620

And Keith lives in a suburb of Chicago and Laura lives in Winter Park. Laura has MS and she is in a wheelchair. And Keith has chronic fatigue syndrome and he can only work sometimes. It's very, very sad.

01:56:28.170 - 01:56:45.000

Kelly: When after your husband died, the children were small. How did you participate when those children were growing up in school? Did you participate in any of their activities? Oh yes, all of them.

01:56:51.300 - 01:57:07.960

Whenever they needed a parent I was there. How important do you think it is for children to have parents who do participate and care about them? Very, absolutely very.

01:57:11.040 - 01:57:25.060

Was your daughter into Girl Scouts also? Oh yes. At one time I had two troops, a brine troop and a rugger troop. Oh my, those were the days.

01:57:35.300 - 01:57:54.180

Did you stay on in the same house after your husband died then? How long did you live there? He died when we were in the process of building a house. So I finished it and moved into it.

01:57:54.400 - 01:58:11.800

That was in Hensdale, nearby. And then I met Howard Scaife, this is number three. What happened to the airplane that you had after your husband died? I do not know, I must have sold it.

01:58:13.540 - 01:58:32.220

How old were your children when you met Howard and married? Were they still young? Yes, ten and twelve, something like that. Howard had children.

01:58:34.920 - 01:59:02.760

Chip was a senior in high school and Sandy was a sophomore. Did they all move in with you then in the home you had built? Yeah, because we looked all over the area for a house big enough for that many people. How did his children get along with your children?

01:59:04.480 - 01:59:37.620

All right, as far as I know. We might have had a few disagreements. Then, after your children grew up, how long did you stay there and what did you do next? We sold the house that we built.

01:59:41.990 - 01:59:57.360

Where did I go? Oh, that is when I married. I married number three or four. How long were you married?

01:59:59.040 - 02:00:26.680

Then he died. Then we moved to Hilton Head Island. We still had property up in Chicago, but moved to Hilton Head Island. When he died, I had three, one, two, three, four pieces of property.

02:00:27.320 - 02:00:46.080

That was more than I could handle, but I had plenty of money. There was never a problem. And when you moved to Hilton Head, did Howard's children move to Hilton Head also? No.

02:00:46.560 - 02:01:10.380

Chip got married, well I think maybe Sandy was married by then. And your children at that point, did they move, were they with you at Hilton Head or had they gone off on their own? Laura came to live at Hilton Head with me for a while, but Keith never did.

02:01:11.520 - 02:01:26.220

He had—it is different with sons. What was the—why did you choose Hilton Head? Did your husband have a job there? No.

02:01:28.050 - 02:01:42.100

We went there on a golfing holiday, vacation, and just fell in love with the place. Did you play golf? Yes. five days a week or six.

02:01:45.430 - 02:02:06.460

Were you a good golfer? Moderately so. And then when he died, did you stay at Hilton Head for a while? When Howard died, what happened?

02:02:12.060 - 02:02:50.480

And eventually you left there. Well, let me see how that happened. I bought a boat, we bought a boat, and he died. I met a sailor who said, "I have to go back over to the Bahamas and pick up my boat or

02:02:50.960 - 02:03:16.800

do something. Do you want to go?" And I didn't have anything to do then, so I said, "Yes, I'll go." I was with that man for eight years and we bought a forty-foot panda and it sailed all

02:03:16.900 - 02:03:54.760

around Bermuda and every place. I am not telling this in the right order, but anyway. Eventually we wound up in Guatemala, which is a beautiful place and very friendly and a neat place to have a boat.

02:04:03.300 - 02:04:15.560

And we built a house. Okay, so now you're in Guatemala and you have this big boat. Did you live on the boat? We lived on the boat. We bought a piece of property

02:04:17.560 - 02:04:37.320

and built a house. I could communicate with the Indian that we had living on the property, but I never really learned to speak Spanish.

02:04:44.880 - 02:05:22.680

I'm ashamed to say that I never learned to speak Spanish fluently. And I think eventually we just drifted apart. And when that happened, what did you do? He took off and there I was with the boat and the house and some friends came in their

02:05:22.760 - 02:05:43.660

boat and said, "We're going to go back up to the States before Christmas." In fact, I think it was Thanksgiving. "You want to come?" So I said, "Yes, I do."

02:05:43.660 - 02:06:18.920

So I made arrangements for my sailboat to be taken care of, and I went with them up to the States to spend Christmas with Laura. And that is when I met Howard. Where did you meet Mack?

02:06:23.880 - 02:07:13.200

I had to renew my passport so that I could go with the other WASPs to Russia. But I was too late to put my bid in for a place to go to Russia, but I still had to renew my passport, and so I got in touch with this friend of friends, mutual friends, and I said, "The Whitehursts think we should meet."

02:07:13.200 - 02:07:33.120

I have to come to have my passport. He called me and he said, "I know exactly where you have to go in Miami to get this, so I'll come and pick you up and we'll have lunch someplace afterwards." So that's how we met.

02:07:34.350 - 02:07:54.360

He came along. I think what really sold me was I had my car parked, I was staying with this friend, and I said, "It looks like it might rain. I think I better go and get a raincoat."

02:07:54.360 - 02:08:14.600

So we walked around to the parking lot to get my raincoat. I don't know where Mac's car was. And my license plate was my ham. He said, "You're a ham?"

02:08:15.240 - 02:08:34.020

That cinched it. You know, here I had a sailboat and wings, and now I—and communication is his field anyway. And he never stopped talking that whole time that we were together, from ten o'clock

02:08:34.080 - 02:08:54.240

in the morning until three or four in the afternoon after lunch. And I think he made up his mind then that this was going to be it. I thought he was not handsome, but very attractive. He had an attractive manner.

02:08:56.680 - 02:09:07.460

What was he doing in Florida? Living here. He was living right around the corner. By that time had he retired from the Marines?

02:09:07.520 - 02:09:32.120

Oh yes. And his wife had died a couple years before. And then how long before you decided to get married? Well, that was in probably three months.

02:09:34.380 - 02:09:42.040

Tell me about that wedding, Florine. What wedding? The one to Mack. There wasn't any wedding.

02:09:42.240 - 02:10:16.580

just went to a local preacher and said, "Here's our license," and that was it. But there's a group here in the Palm Club where they meet regularly, and they were having a get-together that day. He was supposed to come and bring up an hors d'oeuvre or something, bring your own bottle.

02:10:18.840 - 02:10:41.780

And I whipped up some stuffed mushrooms and took a plethora of stuffed mushrooms. It was like a brand new wedding ring. But most of these people don't know that he's married. So that was my wedding reception.

02:10:45.660 - 02:10:50.720

Do you still have a boat? Does he enjoy boats? Oh yes. You want to see it?

02:10:51.100 - 02:11:15.600

We will walk around the corner and it is right here. And now Florine, how do you spend your time? Well, mostly I copy read for him. Like I say, I'm probably the only person who's read that book from cover to cover.

02:11:18.380 - 02:11:36.800

But that's what I do. And what makes you happy? Oh, it's a big order. Working with friends, helping my husband.

02:11:40.960 - 02:12:07.180

How have you been involved with the WASP organization? Well I've always, except for maybe two times, I've always gone to the... and I tell them that I will always be there until I fall down dead. I will go to the reunions because I like to see, I don't always remember everybody, but

02:12:07.480 - 02:12:29.320

I like to see them. At this point in your life are you a volunteer for anything? It's all I can do to stand up. In looking back at your life, you've had some pretty sad times.

02:12:29.700 - 02:12:48.320

Yeah. What got you through those sad times? Well, I guess I've always known that God is going to take care of me. And He has.

02:12:48.500 - 02:13:19.300

And He has. I mean, when I think of some of the scrapes that I've gotten through, it's a miracle. Now, what do you use your boat for? It is Max's recreation.

02:13:21.080 - 02:13:41.840

He does everything. He is a good mechanic, a good communications person. As you look back over your life, you have done a lot of things. What is the one thing that you are most proud of?

02:13:45.520 - 02:14:01.940

It really is, and I am. What does being a WASP mean to you? What has it meant to you? Friendship, most of all, friendship.

02:14:07.540 - 02:14:49.280

accomplishment. After all, there aren't very many of us. Even back when there were a lot of us, there were not very many of us who could do what we could do. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? Someplace up ahead they will look back and say this group started it.

02:14:53.560 - 02:15:18.880

I think that's, the WASPs are the ones who, and I'm very grateful that I have had a chance to be a WASP. What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? What do you think of her?

02:15:19.880 - 02:16:14.020

When you think of Jacqueline Cochran, what do you think? A woman of vast accomplishment, an opportunist, which I don't mean in a negative way. And we certainly owe her a lot, or we wouldn't be where we are. - Florian, in looking ahead to generations of children

02:16:14.180 - 02:16:29.940

who will be watching what you have said today and listening to your voice, what would you like to say to future generations that might encourage or inspire or motivate them?

02:16:32.460 - 02:17:07.940

- It's a big order. Keep your eyes on the stars. Don't ever give up because you can do it if you want to. Is there anything that I have left out of your life that you would like to tell us about?

02:17:09.060 - 02:17:30.160

Any stories that you might want to share, anything at all about your life? Well, hmm. I don't think I said anything about going to, sailing to,

02:17:33.980 - 02:18:02.120

oh hell, I can't even think of the name of the place. From, from, Not Guatemala, from Panama. I went west with two men, one of whom owned this sailboat.

02:18:05.960 - 02:18:36.680

And we were gone four or five weeks, or six weeks. And we wound up in—not Tahiti. There's another—well, I'm sorry, but— Is that when you were living in Guatemala?

02:18:37.260 - 02:18:41.240

No, it was before that. Before that. All right. Fiji?

02:18:42.420 - 02:18:57.160

Have you ever been to Fiji? On the way back from this place, Fiji, yeah, we stopped in Fiji, but we sailed Papiati. Is that Italy? Yeah.

02:18:57.540 - 02:19:04.840

No, Tahiti. Tahiti. Wow. Oh, that was a...

02:19:06.080 - 02:19:18.960

There were only three of us. How did you learn to sail? I didn't. I just picked it up. You can do anything you want to do.

02:19:19.200 - 02:19:34.660

That's right. Never forget it. If you want to, you can do it. Can I ask you, Florine, you've been in an airplane all by yourself, and you know what

02:19:34.700 - 02:19:43.380

that feels like. You've been on the water probably all along, and you know what that feels like. Can you compare that feeling? What's the difference to you?

02:19:45.020 - 02:19:57.300

Or is there a difference? I don't know that there's a difference. If I had my druthers, I'd rather be in an airplane. But sailing is very close to it.

02:19:58.970 - 02:20:23.940

I like to say that when I—I traded wings for sails, which I did. Then I traded sails for this powerboat. It's not nearly as much fun. - Someday you'll trade those sails for wings again.

02:20:24.580 - 02:20:35.900

- Yeah. - I can't thank you enough, Florine. This has been absolutely fascinating. - I'm sure I've left out all kinds of things,

02:20:36.060 - 02:20:46.500

but I can't remember everything. - You've done a great job. You've had a most interesting life. - Everybody says you should write a book,

02:20:46.820 - 02:21:02.260

but you know, there've been so many books. People are tired of books about the wasp. Well, I thank you so much. Children, generations to come, I thank you for them.

02:21:02.720 - 02:21:14.400

Yeah? You think so? Yeah. I believe so. Anything else, Nancy? We should get Mac in here and let him talk to us for a minute and let me ask him.

02:21:14.820 - 02:21:27.700

You're in trouble in talking to me. You've got to talk a little bit louder. I have one hearing in but this ear hurts and I took it that one that side out Okay, tell me who you are Mac Maloney

02:21:28.580 - 02:21:49.980

Then Albert S Maloney better known as Mac. Okay, and Mac the young lady that was here that we've been interviewing What does she mean to you everything My wife of almost 13 years. Tell me what were the qualities that you saw in her that made you fall in love with her?

02:21:51.660 - 02:22:12.440

Adventurous in spirit, doing things differently, going to different places, being willing to tackle most anything. Tell me what one thing that you have in common. Love of boats and boating. Is there a love of something else also?

02:22:12.930 - 02:22:19.700

Each other. Okay. Okay. Tell me, I know that you were in the service during World War II.

02:22:20.200 - 02:22:43.220

Give me a brief description of what you did while you were in service. Well I enlisted in the Marine Corps Reserve right out of high school, 1936. Was commissioned in 1939. Came on active duty in 1940 as a reserve officer.

02:22:44.740 - 02:23:06.200

Given a regular commission in '42. And I was overseas in Iceland with the First Marine Brigade when Pearl Harbor happened. We were already out of the country. And came back and got married to my first wife, Mary, now deceased.

02:23:07.440 - 02:23:34.840

to her for 46 years and went to school at Fort Monmouth, Army Signal School, then out to Camp Pendleton, California, overseas with the 6th Marine Regiment, Guadalcanal, shipped back home with malaria and did desk duty in Washington for a while. While I wasn't in the Naval Hospital, I was on desk duty.

02:23:35.880 - 02:23:55.700

got me time after time after time, and then went out to the Pacific again for the operation at Okinawa. From Okinawa we went to China. When the war ended very abruptly with the atomic bombs, I think the American forces

02:23:55.760 - 02:24:17.260

were more confused than the Japanese, because we were just prepared to invade Japan and thinking that way and the war ended and big surprise. But the Japanese forces were in control of all of North China and had been for even before World War II started for us.

02:24:18.500 - 02:24:38.560

And there were no Chinese civil authorities or military forces to take over from the Japanese when the war was over. So two Marine divisions were sent in. The First Division went into Tientsin, Beijing, now called Beiping.

02:24:42.740 - 02:25:02.120

I was a communication officer for the Fifth Marines with the headquarters in Beiping and was there for nineteen months. Learned a little Chinese, but not much. Came back to the States, was in Camp Pendleton, then came east to Quantico and from there

02:25:04.460 - 02:25:26.280

to Norfolk. No, from Quantico to Washington to Norfolk, and then back to Okinawa with the 3rd Marine Division, peacetime 3rd Marine Division in Okinawa. Stayed there and then came back to the States and eventually helped set up the Defense Communication

02:25:26.280 - 02:25:44.740

and then retired to go live on a boat. When did you first become interested in boats? I was raised in a house that was right on the beach at Virginia Beach, Virginia. The ocean was my front yard, so I can't remember the first time I became interested in boats.

02:25:45.180 - 02:26:01.140

The first time I became active in boating was in 1954 in Norfolk, where I had my first family boat. And we had a boat there. Do you want to unhook that? No.

02:26:01.700 - 02:26:15.720

And I bought an old boat, found out we liked boating, my wife and one son and myself, and then bought a new boat,

02:26:16.380 - 02:26:26.760

figuring when I finished in Norfolk, I'd go up the river to Quantico, my next duty station, just go on up a boat. Well, the Marine Corps sent me to Okinawa, so I didn't do that.

02:26:26.820 - 02:26:38.360

We sold that boat. And we came back, and then I retired in '64 to live on a boat and have been boating solidly ever since then. Okay.

02:26:39.060 - 02:26:46.440

As a proud Marine, I want to know what you think about those Marines in Iraq. Where? In Iraq. Iraq.

02:26:46.440 - 02:27:02.800

They just finished. I think they did very well. It was a mission that was totally unsuited for the Marine Corps, the extended movement inland, the Marines being equipped and trained to seize a beakhead, secure it, turn it over

02:27:02.800 - 02:27:22.900

to the Army, and then go seize another place somewhere else. When they started speaking of amphibious assault vehicles hundreds of miles inland, I wondered how in the world they ever did it, because they were tracked vehicles intended to work in the water and over a beach and that was it.

02:27:23.140 - 02:27:44.980

Now they were 100, 150 miles, 300 miles inland. How the amphibious assault vehicles got that far inland, I don't know. What do you think of our military today? I think they did themselves proud in Iraq and with the help of the reserves and the

02:27:44.980 - 02:28:02.680

National Guards that were called up, I think they did a fine job. Let me ask you what you think of your wife's flying as a WASP. What do you feel about the WASP? That was typical of her, of her adventuresome spirit that I mentioned before.

02:28:03.680 - 02:28:30.760

I have a pilot's license or I had one, but never flew militarily. And she's quite a gal. Let me ask you, if you could say something to children in future generations who will be watching this film, what would you say to them that might encourage them to motivate

02:28:30.760 - 02:28:42.220

and inspire them? That's a big order. I'll pass on that one. That's out of my field.

02:28:44.780 - 02:28:54.080

Yes. Now, what are you involved in? Right now, or... Well, in my latter days on active duty,

02:28:55.040 - 02:29:11.920

I was looking for a second career, knowing that I'd retire too early an age to just fold up. And what I didn't want was just to go out of one building and into another building in civilian clothes and work a nine to five job.

02:29:13.680 - 02:29:34.700

So five years before I actually retired from the military in 1959, I started writing. I figured that was something I could do, travel around, take with me, and I had been writing professionally since then. Started with boating magazines and then gradually worked into boating books.

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And presently, what particular book are you writing? The present edition as of now of Dutton's Navigation and Piloting, which is used as a textbook at the Naval Academy, Coast Guard Academy, Merchant Marine Academy, activities like that, I wrote the last two editions of that book for the Naval Institute.

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Beginning in 1965, I had been writing the Chapman book, Piloting and Seamanship, which is quite rightly called the Bible of Boating. I've been rightly keeping that up to date. In fact, just before talking with you, I've been in my office writing away on the next

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edition. As a sideline to my writing, it's developed into a consulting business with lawyers involved with boating accidents. Chapman's being a book on many boats and most boaters have studied in one thing or another,

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I'm recognized as something of an authority and I serve as a consultant and expert witness in civil cases relating to boating accidents. - Wow. - The writing and the consulting work keep me busy.

02:31:05.840 - 02:31:17.640

- Matt, can I ask you why a sailor joined the Marine Corps? - That's a good question. I love the water, but I had a great uncle, my father's uncle was a general officer in the Marine Corps.

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And I was exposed to the Marine Corps through Uncle George. and went Marine Corps wide that way. Originally, I had thought that enlisting in the Marine Corps Reserve might open up a possibility of an appointment to the Naval Academy, but it didn't and I went to Virginia Polytechnic,

02:31:40.880 - 02:31:58.060

Virginia Tech, and studied engineering there and never got the Naval Academy. My son did, graduated from the Naval Academy. Now I have a son who is a retired Naval officer. I was very proud to have a son who was a Naval officer.

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Now to have a son who's a retired Naval officer makes me feel awfully old. You certainly have been, led a successful life. What gave you the courage to be successful? were there to be done and I did them.

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Who were your role models? I can't call anybody particularly that way. Mr. Chapman, who started the book that I took over from him in 1965, was a role model for many, many people in the boating field.

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But other than that, I'm not much on the role model. Are you into ham radios? Yes, and that was another thing that attracted me to Floraine. When I met her, we went out to get something out of her car when we first met, and I saw

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her ham license plate on the car. I said, "That's the girl for me right there." With all the other attributes. I think you did yourself proud.

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I did indeed. And we thank you for talking to us for a few minutes. Thank you. Well, you got to talk longer than he did.