00:00:00.000 - 00:00:15.000

She had interviewed somebody else. It was easy. And so she used what the other person said. She didn't have to bother with me. And got it all wrong. And she said, "Well, she'd put some corrections in the back of the book next time or something." I said, "Oh, forget it. Maybe people won't even notice it."

00:00:15.000 - 00:00:24.000

[laughs] Instead of making a big deal out of it. [off camera] I need you to send all the records. I guess so. I guess so. That's one thing you don't forget.

00:00:24.000 - 00:00:33.000

You're not likely to get the story wrong yourself. [beep] You were rolling. I am.

00:00:33.000 - 00:01:00.000

I'm Deanie Parrish. Today we're interviewing Florine Watson, a member of the Women's Auxiliary Ferrying Service. We're in the PBS Studios KACV-TV on the campus of the Amarillo College in Amarillo, Texas. Today is the 18th of September, 2000. Okay, Florine, if you'll go ahead and tell us who you were, when and where you were born, and who your parents were.

00:01:00.000 - 00:01:15.000

All right. I was born in San Angelo, Texas. Tell me who you are. And I'm Florine Miller Watson. And I was born in 1920 on December 7th on Pearl Harbor Day a couple of years ago.

00:01:15.000 - 00:01:37.000

And so my parents, Thomas Lamont Miller, my father, and Flora Tice Miller, my mother. And they are both deceased at this time. My mother died a few months ago at 99 in her sleep. Didn't have cancer or anything. Was not in the hospital.

00:01:37.000 - 00:01:46.000

And so that was a real blessing. And then I'll tell you later how my father died. But -- Did you have siblings?

00:01:46.000 - 00:02:05.000

I had siblings. I had a brother two years older, one two years younger, and a sister four years younger. And at this point, my brothers are both gone, and my sister and I are quite alive and quite close and enjoying ourselves. Right. Very much.

00:02:05.000 - 00:02:28.000

When you were growing up, Florine, what did your dad do? My daddy was a jeweler and started off -- we lived my early life in Big Lake, Texas, which is close to San Angelo. And this is an oil town, an oil basin area. And he was a jeweler and was quite successful, I guess you would say, in that.

00:02:28.000 - 00:02:56.000

And then he was president of the school board, Reagan County School Board, all the years that I grew up. And held other offices in town, in other words, kind of the leaders of town. My grandfather, Rudolph Tice, was the mayor of the town for so long. And I had an uncle, my mother's brother, who had a retail store also.

00:02:56.000 - 00:03:19.000

So in the community, we were well known. My brothers' names are Lamont Miller and Adolph Miller. My sister's name is Garnett Irwin at this point, and she lives in Dallas and has three daughters and some grandchildren. Everyone is healthy and well.

00:03:19.000 - 00:03:27.000

Good. And so that's good. Tell me about your earliest recollections of your childhood. Who were your playmates?

00:03:27.000 - 00:03:38.000

What did you play? Early recollections. Early recollections. The first one I remember was when I was about four years old, when we lived in Sonora before we moved to Big Lake.

00:03:38.000 - 00:03:57.000

And I can remember playing out in the front yard and around the porch area. And I don't know why at four years old you even have kind of a half memory, but I do remember that. And then as I grew up, I had some cousins, mother's brother and Tone Tice. I had three daughters.

00:03:57.000 - 00:04:27.000

And so I played with them, and also I am not sure now how a little colored girl got in there, but she was in there also sometime, and I played with her, which was more unusual, I guess, in those days that the black family was even around. And I played with my brothers as I grew up. I always had things to do that I enjoyed doing with my brothers and their friends that would come.

00:04:27.000 - 00:04:47.000

And Daddy had built Mother a tennis court on the side of the house, and I know that we always -- she always wanted us to play tennis, and many times we didn't. And we had a lot of neighbor kids around all the time. With four of us, there were always other kids there.

00:04:47.000 - 00:05:10.000

And my parents were always very gracious and generous to everyone. My grandparents lived a block away. And so I really had a very firm, solid foundation of family ties when I grew up and a good family support system. And also the family was well known in the community.

00:05:10.000 - 00:05:38.000

And I think when you do that, the kids know that you better not be doing any smarting off or anything. Everybody knows you and where you come from and who your parents and grandparents are and everything. And we -- I grew up in the Baptist church, like, from the very beginning all the time. And as I said before, I played piano for them at that time.

00:05:38.000 - 00:06:08.000

But as a little one growing up, I remember very vividly how my mother was always eager to teach her four children independence. And that was always something that she valued. She wanted us to be able to think for ourselves, do things for ourselves. And for some reason or another, she, I think, had a little inside fear that somehow or another she may not live

00:06:08.000 - 00:06:28.000

and leave these four children without anyone. And she wanted us to be able to take care of ourselves. And she taught me early on how to do things in the kitchen. I had a little stool that I would do everything up and down the counter and move that stool and do things in the kitchen.

00:06:28.000 - 00:06:40.000

And I remember she taught me how to make an Eagle Brand condensed milk pie. First thing they ever made. I was like four years old. And my little brother at two ended up with typhoid fever.

00:06:40.000 - 00:06:51.000

Well, we were quarantined. And my father couldn't even come home. And I guess he brought groceries and put them on the front porch. I don't know how we did that.

00:06:51.000 - 00:07:05.000

But my older brother and I, which is like six and I was four, and we had charge of the household. And I can remember doing things in the kitchen. And I guess I was opening cans of soup or something.

00:07:05.000 - 00:07:27.000

I don't know what I was doing. But really taking care of that and taking food to my mother. And then my mother, after she got over -- My mother, when I was doing this for her in bed, she had some kind of measles even in between here, which is not too good.

00:07:27.000 - 00:07:45.000

But anyway, she, as I say, died at 99. She survived from all of this. And she -- mother taught me to sew very, very early in life. And I know I had some aunts that were eager to help me.

00:07:45.000 - 00:08:00.000

And I was making little embroidery things at four years old, four and six. And I have some of those little things. And then mother taught me on the sewing machine very early how to sew. And as I look back, I don't know how she had the patience to do that.

00:08:00.000 - 00:08:17.000

And why, I guess maybe I had the patience to sit there and do it. But I thought that's great stuff. And I can remember the first dress that I made completely by myself when I was nine years old and marched off to school in that dress, and I can see that dress yet.

00:08:17.000 - 00:08:39.000

That's exactly what it was. And then when I got in high school and I took home economics and sewing, I was the teacher's assistant. And I went around helping everybody else. And I made a three-piece lined wool suit with a taffeta blouse that had 16 tucks all down the front and everything.

00:08:39.000 - 00:08:52.000

I remember that one too very well. -Let me go back and give me your earliest remembrances of going to school in elementary school. -Elementary school. I had a teacher by the name of Miss Johnson.

00:08:52.000 - 00:09:15.000

And I guess I thought school was pretty big stuff, you know, things going on there, things to learn and things that you could look around and see and do. And I guess since mother, long before I went to school, had already taught me. And in other words, I was under a schooling kind of atmosphere with mother.

00:09:15.000 - 00:09:21.000

-How did you get to school? -How did I get to school? I walked. I was one block away.

00:09:21.000 - 00:09:34.000

And I walked to school, and we were just right there kind of on top of the school. And my mother didn't have to take the kids to school, which was a real blessing. -How large was the school? How many children?

00:09:34.000 - 00:09:52.000

-Well, we didn't have too many. The town was about, oh, I don't know, 2,000 or 3,000, small. And not many in the school. My graduating class wasn't but about 20 or something, under 30 anyway, the graduating class.

00:09:52.000 - 00:10:09.000

-In elementary school, what did you enjoy doing in elementary school? -I think I enjoyed learning book information. And I guess we had arts and crafts. I don't remember that we had very much of that then, so I wasn't into that.

00:10:09.000 - 00:10:26.000

But the fact that I could learn and also learn to read, I thought that was a big deal because I knew what was on the next page. When I got to figuring out what the next page said, I thought, you know, it's pretty good. I'm getting into this world, you know, opening up a new area for me.

00:10:26.000 - 00:10:40.000

But I always--I did well in school, and I know that they wanted to-- I started school when I was 5 in September. December was 6. And then after I went through the first grade, I think it was,

00:10:40.000 - 00:10:53.000

they wanted to promote me to skip a grade. And my parents wouldn't allow it since she's too young. And I'm glad because I graduated at 16. And I graduated, I always made straight As and everything.

00:10:53.000 - 00:11:11.000

So I know that when I bring my grades home, I'd have all As, and occasionally there'd be an A- in there. And I grew up sitting on my father's lap, and he would always talk to me about different things. And I remember he would look at this A-, "What happened here?"

00:11:11.000 - 00:11:25.000

You know, that's serious business. "What happened here?" Well, when down in the bottom, you know, the teachers always make a little note. And the little note my teachers always wrote for the minus, "She talks too much in class."

00:11:25.000 - 00:11:38.000

And so it wasn't necessarily the academics, but I just had to be talking and doing it, just too active in class. And so they minused me on that. What was Christmas like at your home when you were growing up?

00:11:38.000 - 00:11:50.000

Oh, Christmas was wonderful. It was a thing we looked forward to. We had a big Christmas tree, and my grandparents living close by also, and some rest of the family.

00:11:50.000 - 00:12:05.000

And we had--probably on Christmas Eve, we did more opening of our presents and everything because we had more time to kill and to burn. And the next morning was the big Christmas dinner, and my grandparents and my uncle and aunt and their kids.

00:12:05.000 - 00:12:24.000

So it was a big affair. And I always had something--I always received something. I was not one of the children that said, "You know, I wonder if I'll even get a present." And this--you know, some of this was down like in the days of the Depression.

00:12:24.000 - 00:12:42.000

And I was aware that the so-called Depression was going on, but at the same time, my lifestyle didn't really change. And I know that my father--in the jewelry business, you'd think he'd go broke quicker than anybody at that time.

00:12:42.000 - 00:13:01.000

And he always said that whenever things really got rough and he started worrying about it, he'd sell a big diamond to somebody in the oil patch who had the money. And the diamonds were always good investments then, and then that would see us through. But Christmas was something that we looked forward to.

00:13:01.000 - 00:13:14.000

It was a very happy time. Do you remember any particular things that happened in your church life during the Christmas season? Well, we had-- Were there plays?

00:13:14.000 - 00:13:29.000

Plays. Not so many plays as I think, but we did kind of pageants and stuff. Yes, with the little kids, and you'd dress up like a little Mary and Joseph and that, yes. I wondered if you remember any time that you played a particular part.

00:13:29.000 - 00:13:38.000

I don't think so. I don't think so. But that was a special part of your life. Oh, yes, very much, a special part of my life.

00:13:38.000 - 00:13:59.000

And I don't remember doing that. Now, I remember being in other recitals and things like that. But as far as a church pageant, I remember they existed, but I don't think I had much of a part in it that I recall. In your early years, how did you spend your vacation during the summer?

00:13:59.000 - 00:14:22.000

Vacation in early years? My family traveled a lot. And other than going out of state and everything, I went to my aunt's house in San Angelo. She lived on a farm, aunt and uncle, and she had two boys and one small girl who finally died.

00:14:22.000 - 00:14:49.000

But the thing is, it was an exciting time for me in the summer because I always went to her house practically every summer, although as a family we traveled a great deal. And I know that my grandparents, when I was eight years old, my grandparents and mother and my older brother took a 6,000-mile trip all over the United States, over in the western part and everything.

00:14:49.000 - 00:15:07.000

And that was like in 1928, I think, '29, and the roads were not like anything. We went up on Pikes Peak, I remember, and some of the other roads that were not paved and no banister and falling off. Those were--we saw a lot. And then we'd take smaller trips.

00:15:07.000 - 00:15:29.000

But the ones that--when I was small, to go to see my aunt in San Angelo, I remember one time when I was like six years old, I was going to go see her, and I was going to take the train by myself. And so I got on the train.

00:15:29.000 - 00:15:50.000

My parents were there to see me off, and I had my little sack of goodies and my little crayons and my things to read and all. And so I very happily marched on that train and took a seat. And I remember I went along, the conductor goes down the aisle taking tickets from people and so forth, and I was just one of them, and he took my ticket and stuff.

00:15:50.000 - 00:16:07.000

And so we went on down the road for another 30 minutes or something, and the conductor comes back to me and kind of hovers over me, and he says, "How you doing, little lady? Is there anything that I can do for you?

00:16:07.000 - 00:16:23.000

Do you need anything?" And I was so insulted. Do you think that guy thinks I can't take care of myself? Six years old, I remember how indignant I was that he would be solicitous of me,

00:16:23.000 - 00:16:45.000

that I couldn't take care of myself. And I remember that trip was just--I was just as comfortable as anything, no anxiety whatsoever, big excursion by myself. And so that kind of gives--as the years went by and everything,

00:16:45.000 - 00:17:03.000

it seemed like most things were just kind of a big thing for me, you know. I didn't mind tackling anything, I guess you might say. - When you would get to your aunt's, would you help with the chores? - Yes, I'd help with the chores, and we had a good bond through all the years.

00:17:03.000 - 00:17:22.000

And yes, they let me do everything. I went out on the farm, and I did with my uncle different things on the farm, my aunt in the kitchen with the food. And so I really got an education of all rural life and being able to take responsibility.

00:17:22.000 - 00:17:38.000

And I know there was a windmill not too far away, and they liked the water from that windmill better than something else, and I'd march down there with bucketfuls and bring back water and go out and help feed the pigs and the cows and help go milk and everything.

00:17:38.000 - 00:17:52.000

So yes, I had a good farm education through them, which was very valuable. - You mentioned your grandparents. You mentioned one set of grandparents lived a block away. Where did the others live?

00:17:52.000 - 00:18:10.000

- The others lived in San Angelo, and we as a family went to San Angelo quite often. And my father was one of 12 children, if you can imagine, a big family. And most of them lived right around the San Angelo area. So I got to know all my aunts and uncles quite well and all my cousins.

00:18:10.000 - 00:18:33.000

I don't know. We had 30-something cousins or more. And we've all been a very close-knit family, and I always loved them all. And I never did see any man--and this went with me through my flying years even-- these men were all Christian men, and they were heads of their households,

00:18:33.000 - 00:18:48.000

like Scripture says, but they never intimidated or squelched their spouses. And the wives, my aunts could do anything they wanted to whenever, but, boy, the man was the head of the house. He had the last word, and we all accepted that.

00:18:48.000 - 00:19:02.000

I like it. I like it to this day for the man to be responsible to the Lord for me. And then I don't want that responsibility. Let him have it. He can have it if he wants it. I don't want it. And I don't want to run the show.

00:19:02.000 - 00:19:24.000

I'd much rather be subservient in that respect from a standpoint of authority over me. But now I have never been squelched or never had any of my privileges taken away. And it's always been in my family and everybody else, whatever you wanted to do, if you're capable of doing it, go after it.

00:19:24.000 - 00:19:50.000

And so when I started flying, no one thought that was out of line or anything or that I couldn't do it or shouldn't be doing it or anything. So that has always been very good, and I think that you get a mindset that you don't realize you have that whenever you see something that you'd like to do, it never occurs to you you won't be able to do it.

00:19:50.000 - 00:20:09.000

And somebody asked me many, many years later, because I had done a bunch of other stuff after the war, and they said, "Did it ever occur to you that when you attempted something, you wouldn't be able to do it?" I said, "No, I don't guess so. I never even thought about it." I thought, "Here's an opportunity," and so I just whipped off to the opportunity.

00:20:09.000 - 00:20:29.000

No, it never crossed my mind that I wouldn't be able to do it when I got there. And I'm sure that having the confidence from a child, being taught very early to take care of yourself, do your own thinking, you're responsible for your decision-making, but I know that my parents as little kids would tell us this.

00:20:29.000 - 00:20:52.000

Well, that makes you more responsible for any decision and action you make because it's placed on you and you're accountable for it, but you're also, oh, I must say, encouraged or admired for your coming out on top. In other words, we have a lot of, I should say, confidence built in.

00:20:52.000 - 00:21:08.000

And I know that instead of parents being negative, you did that, but you didn't do it quite right, you know. That always hit on the positive. You did a good job of this. You could have done a little better maybe if you'd done so and so and so and so,

00:21:08.000 - 00:21:27.000

but you always felt that you would get credit. You never felt that you didn't get credit for anything or got put down. I guess you'd say I never was in the family put down, and we never did do that to each other. And so I think that that would give you a confidence that you could do something

00:21:27.000 - 00:21:42.000

because nobody ever told me I couldn't. And see, I never told anybody else they couldn't, like in my kids and everything. I don't think we should know that we can't. We should have an idea we can, and then when we fail, then we'll say, oh, tough.

00:21:42.000 - 00:22:01.000

We didn't do that so well, but at least it gives you confidence to get out and try whatever it is out there. >> In your early years of school, do you remember a specific teacher that might have influenced you or encouraged you? >> Well, I think my first-grade teacher, and then I can think of an English teacher

00:22:01.000 - 00:22:21.000

and a Spanish teacher that kind of stand out in my mind. And I don't necessarily know that they encouraged-- well, if you really liked them and they taught you something, I guess they were encouraging you without realizing it, even on what aspect that they did to encourage you.

00:22:21.000 - 00:22:42.000

>> In growing up, who were your role models? >> My role models, I think, were all in my family. My uncles and all-- as I say, I never saw any of them do anything I disapproved of. And all good Christian men, gentlemen, and loved their family and loved me.

00:22:42.000 - 00:22:59.000

And so I would say that if I went to the dogs, it wasn't their fault. [ Laughter ] That I should have been fairly decent. I had decent background and decent bringing up and got to do things.

00:22:59.000 - 00:23:15.000

Now, this is something else I thought about that we did when I was young. I had one uncle who was some railroad-- well, I don't know what you'd call it, leader, executive, or something, had a lot to do with the railroad.

00:23:15.000 - 00:23:41.000

I remember his daughter and I, as little kids, maybe 10 years old, 8 or something, we were living one summer out on the railroad area with that housing and everything out there in the railroad, and he was in charge of whatever. And we would go on the railroad tracks and play under boxcars that were stationary,

00:23:41.000 - 00:23:52.000

that were just sitting there. And we'd play this and that and what have you. And I remember one day a train came along and hooked onto those little boogers, and we were under them.

00:23:52.000 - 00:24:07.000

And I remember we had sense enough for some reason to lie down flat-- and you know where all the stuff comes down like this in the middle and over here? We laid down, and the big part of it went right over our heads. We were still little.

00:24:07.000 - 00:24:18.000

We were down in the cracks. I remember that part of it. And then I also remember getting on one of the little railroad cars, you know, that you'd pump the thing or however it got activated,

00:24:18.000 - 00:24:39.000

and you'd go up and down the railroad track. So I had a lot of exposure to that kind of thing. I had exposure to ranch life and all the sheep and the goats and the cows. And as I grew up, I did ride horses out on the ranch.

00:24:39.000 - 00:24:59.000

That was just about five miles out of town, my father's brother who owned it. And so my cousins and I would be out there. I know one time I was helping round up sheep for the shearing, and I must have been maybe a freshman in high school at this time.

00:24:59.000 - 00:25:18.000

And I was riding a cutting horse, and I was so dumb then, I really didn't understand about cutting horses, I guess, how they react, you know, really fast. And so the horse watching all the sheep and everything, and I was sitting there in the saddle, and I know I was fiddling around with my wristwatch,

00:25:18.000 - 00:25:26.000

just doing nothing. We were just walking, you know. And all of a sudden the horse saw something out of line and whipped off there. And what happened to me?

00:25:26.000 - 00:25:39.000

I wasn't ready. I guess I was holding the reins at the time, but I was doing nothing. I slid off the side of the horse, and I was determined it wasn't going to fall off. And I kept holding on, holding on, and he got running faster and faster.

00:25:39.000 - 00:26:00.000

And I slid clear off in between his two front feet now, just hanging on. My boy cousin, who was later killed on D-Day, was over here watching, and, oh, he comes running over with his horse to help and everything. And I finally, after so much running, slid down, fell down on the ground on my back

00:26:00.000 - 00:26:21.000

with the horse's feet going over. One horse's foot hit me right here on the chest, not too low, thank goodness, but I had horse shit here on my chest for I don't know how long. And then also in the shearing time, I've been jumping in the shearing wool.

00:26:21.000 - 00:26:37.000

They have the big, big, open, basic thing where they throw all the wool in, and get in it and so-called stomp it down. Well, you get in there and drown, and it's what you really do. But I was allowed to do a lot of things probably that I shouldn't have been doing.

00:26:37.000 - 00:26:55.000

But all of the activities on the farm and the ranch, I was exposed to all of those. And then one thing that we did, Mother, whenever there's some kind of an excursion or something that she thought was good for the kids, she'd take us. And we went swimming.

00:26:55.000 - 00:27:07.000

Of course, there were no lakes around there. But we would go to the Pecos River and swim. Now I had another aunt that lived close to that, down toward the town of Pecos, actually, and the Pecos River running around.

00:27:07.000 - 00:27:36.000

And there was a nice place kind of halfway with a shade of the bridge and a few trees and stuff. And all of us kids, my three cousins and four of us little kids and parents, mothers, we would go swimming and get so sunburned sometime out here in this river out in the Wild West. And we would put whipping cream, whipping cream on the burns and everything.

00:27:36.000 - 00:27:48.000

And it's amazing how that did. Instead of an ointment we'd have today, we'd use that cream, and we'd get all docked out on that afterwards. But there was a bridge that ran across the river.

00:27:48.000 - 00:28:09.000

And the river wasn't too deep, but the bridge up here. Well, my brother, who was really a little wild like I was, I guess, more adventurous, we'd march up on that bridge and jump off into the water. Well, the water now wasn't deep enough to take us.

00:28:09.000 - 00:28:26.000

We were too chicken to dive headfirst off of that because we knew we'd hit the bottom probably. But we would just run off there and go feet first and do all kinds of goofy things as we were going down, and, you know, Tarzan yelling and stuff, and we'd go hit this water.

00:28:26.000 - 00:28:36.000

The rest of them were much too chicken to do that. And, yeah, we'd hit the bottom, but we'd hit it feet first. But we never did get hurt. But if we'd gone off headfirst, I know.

00:28:36.000 - 00:28:56.000

But we did that a lot. And so many times we went down there to the river. My aunt had a summer home down in there, and we would have a place to go, and all the kids. So some of those early fun things were really, really fun, I think.

00:28:56.000 - 00:29:13.000

And I didn't just grow up in a little town and sit there, but all the time we were doing this we were doing traveling out of the area, and then I had time on a farm and time on the ranch. And another thing, even when I was eight years old, maybe ten,

00:29:13.000 - 00:29:29.000

my father had my older brother and I at first working in his jewelry store at times. We would go down there, and, boy, he was hot to make us accomplish something. He'd have something for us to accomplish. And he said, "You'll not stand around and do nothing.

00:29:29.000 - 00:29:49.000

We don't do this as employees in any business." And I got a lot of business employee ownership kind of economic teaching from my father. As I said, I grew up sitting on his lap to the day he died. And he would talk to me about any and everything.

00:29:49.000 - 00:30:07.000

We just talked and talked and talked. And he had--I remember when I was maybe like ten years old, started teaching me how to do engraving with engraving tools and the metal and stuff. And my brother and I really learned a lot about how to do that.

00:30:07.000 - 00:30:25.000

Then along comes--let's see, in 1932, I think, or '33, my father had to be gone for surgery in Chicago, an experimental kind of surgery of removing part of the colon, which was very new at that time.

00:30:25.000 - 00:30:40.000

And I think that was about 1933 or '32. And he left the jewelry store with my older brother and me. We had worked down there enough. And he left that in our charge, mind you, as I look back on this,

00:30:40.000 - 00:30:58.000

and I'm sure he had some other adults watching that he had posted in the background. But my brother and I went to work, and we were there at that jewelry store. And I remember doing a lot of engraving at that time. And my brother was very mature for his age, my older brother.

00:30:58.000 - 00:31:13.000

And he would really take care of it, doing all the books, and he knew all the information on all the pieces of jewelry and stuff. I knew some, but I didn't know what he knew. So I was kind of looking to him all the time.

00:31:13.000 - 00:31:22.000

When you would go on these trips, what was the purpose of the trips? Would you visit people or would you just-- Fun. Education. Education.

00:31:22.000 - 00:31:37.000

Do you remember any specific trip or any place you went that stands out as being really special? Did you go to museums? No, we didn't go out of the country at that time. Now since then, my husband and I have taken our kids everywhere.

00:31:37.000 - 00:31:56.000

But no, many times it was just like for education. Get in the car and just cover the countryside, go to different states. So we were more in the states going to states. And this one trip that was really more memorable than any of them

00:31:56.000 - 00:32:14.000

was when we spent, I don't know, two months at least on the road. We had the biggest Chrysler that they made at the time, and my mother did all the driving. My grandparents, her parents were there, and my older brother and I.

00:32:14.000 - 00:32:28.000

I was like eight and he was ten. And we drove like 6,000 miles. Mother's an excellent driver. And in those days, the roads that we rode on, up and down mountains and stuff,

00:32:28.000 - 00:32:51.000

would absolutely curl your hair. And I know that one particular trip, we drove through the mountains that was in one of the western states. I'm not sure exactly whether it was in Utah or exactly somewhere in there, that we went up on this big mountain trail or maybe it was close to Yellowstone.

00:32:51.000 - 00:33:12.000

But in any event, the road was for one car only, no banister, dirt, and just carved out of the side of the road. And so you'd go up on--crawl up on the road, and you'd have to go a certain distance before they'd ever have a place carved out in the mountain that two cars could pass.

00:33:12.000 - 00:33:29.000

And Mother was always the one climbing up the mountain, and here'd come another car. She was always the one that backed down the hill. She backed way down this narrow little hill and pull off on the little place where this car could pass her. That happened to her more times than anything.

00:33:29.000 - 00:33:47.000

As I say, she was an outstanding driver. Even in her 80s, she was driving the Los Angeles traffic like you wouldn't believe. And so anyway, my grandmother--we'll always remember and tease her about it-- she would be sitting on the outside by the door,

00:33:47.000 - 00:34:03.000

and the two kids, little kids and my grandmother and I were in the back, and grandfather and mother in the front always. And she'd be sitting and just looking down this precipice, you know, with not a thing there, just one car wide. And she'd be sitting there with her hand on the door handle.

00:34:03.000 - 00:34:21.000

And we'd say, "Well, you're going to bail out? What are you going to do?" She just felt like, "Oh, my gosh, I've just got to get--" She was scared out of her wits, and I can see why. And we kids didn't have that much sense to be that scared, but we were scared too, because that was really whatever.

00:34:21.000 - 00:34:41.000

And then we'd go up the mountain and come down on the other side, but always when we passed a car, it was mother who had to back down hill and around the corners and everything. Well, she could handle a car, I'm telling you. And so those--and then I remember on that same trip, or maybe it was another one anyway,

00:34:41.000 - 00:35:07.000

we'd get up in the Seattle area, and as a little kid, they had lots of strawberries and lots of plums, and I just had to eat and eat and eat, love those things. Well, next thing you know, I broke out in a rash all over. And my parents and mother and grandparents said, "Oh, my gosh, this kid's got the measles, going to ruin our trip."

00:35:07.000 - 00:35:20.000

And sure enough, they took me to the doctor, and I had just an acid rash. I'd eaten too much of that stuff, and I didn't have anything. But I thought surely I had ruined the whole trip. They'd have to stop and let me have measles.

00:35:20.000 - 00:35:38.000

So that taught me not to eat too much at that time. But-- >>When you were in high school, go to high school, what were your ambitions? >>You know, I don't know that I had a determined ambition.

00:35:38.000 - 00:35:57.000

Now, remember, in those days, women did not work. And women went to college for the purpose of getting their social graces in line and to find a man, a college-educated man to marry. And then you were going to live happily ever after.

00:35:57.000 - 00:36:19.000

Well, I knew that I wanted to go to college. Now, well, I think it increased my education. I don't know that I started off to college with the idea in mind that I have to work and earn a living with what I learn at this college. Now, not in the very beginning at all.

00:36:19.000 - 00:36:46.000

Although, when I went to my first year, I had already had one year of being secretary to a county attorney. And then when I went to school the first year, part-time, I was secretary to a district attorney. And I learned, like you wouldn't believe, on that job, that guy really drove me. He was one of the attorneys at the Nuremberg trials over in Germany, sharper than anything.

00:36:46.000 - 00:37:10.000

And he was the first one that ever used the words "juvenile delinquency." And he was out talking about it that long ago, like in the 1940, '39, '38, there. But he really put me to the test, and he tells me later he did so much of that on purpose so that I would-- he'd see just what I could do and what I would come up with and everything.

00:37:10.000 - 00:37:31.000

So I was ready to kill him half the time, you know. But anyway, I did that, and I was always interested in business because Daddy always talked to me about it. And I worked in the jewelry store and all that kind of thing. And I knew business ethics and politeness, and the customer's always right, and this kind of thing.

00:37:31.000 - 00:37:54.000

I learned the etiquette and so-called poise that you have in operating a business. But I don't know that I went to school with the idea that I was going to start a business or work one. But I did have a major in business, and so I majored in business when I went to Alpine. And the reason I went there is because this district attorney was there, and we knew him.

00:37:54.000 - 00:38:05.000

And he offered me the job, "Please come." So that's why I went there. >>In high school, what was your favorite subject? >>My favorite subject? I don't know that I had one. >>Okay.

00:38:05.000 - 00:38:19.000

>>And I guess in my whole life, I like so many things. I don't know that I centered on one. >>Tell me about some of your outside activities in high school, sports, for example. >>Okay. >>Describe some of the things you did.

00:38:19.000 - 00:38:38.000

>>Okay. The sports, I was always involved in sports, and we had good, strong basketball sport in our high school. And we went to other towns and had tournaments. And I played basketball. I played forward for a while, and then I got to play in guard.

00:38:38.000 - 00:39:02.000

And then I got all kinds of awards being the guard, so then they left me being a guard, I think. But we played basketball. I played basketball four years and lettered in that. And I remember vividly so many of the tournaments we went to in and out of town. And then I played baseball. We had a girls' baseball team and competed with other teams,

00:39:02.000 - 00:39:21.000

which is kind of unusual then because I don't know that that carried on. And when my kids went to school, we didn't have girls' baseball teams, nor basketball teams either. We had volleyball, but not so much of that. But I did do that and enjoyed the sports.

00:39:21.000 - 00:39:45.000

And, of course, I always enjoyed swimming a great deal, and I ended up being a swimming instructor in later years. >>How about music? >>Music. I enjoyed music, yet I wasn't just that consumed with it. I always had a piano, and I learned, I took my lessons, and I played in a church and did that.

00:39:45.000 - 00:40:02.000

But it must not have been that much because all these years I've had a piano and everything, and I do not keep up with it. And for some reason or another, I get my enjoyment some of the place, I guess. I'm not sitting down at the piano. I've got it right there at home. >>Describe some of your social activities.

00:40:02.000 - 00:40:21.000

>>All right, social activities. We did a fair amount. We had a lot of parties from school, school parties, quite a few of them. And we had school dances, and I could go to school dances. Of course, I grew up a Baptist, and some of them didn't think dancing was so great, but it wasn't that forbidden where I was.

00:40:21.000 - 00:40:41.000

And so I was allowed to, and I had ballroom dancing lessons. That was available to us, and so I loved ballroom dancing and still do as far as that goes. >>Can we stop for a second? Florine, can we stop for just a second? Let me change tapes.

00:40:41.000 - 00:40:55.000

>>Okay. Be surprised how much comes out of your youth that you forget about until you start asking about where'd all that come from, you know. >>Talk about the ballroom dancing. >>Okay. Are you ready?

00:40:55.000 - 00:41:21.000

All right. Yes, the ballroom dancing, I had some of that. And then I was allowed to go to school dances, and we did have school dances. And however, there was a dance program, I don't want to talk too much about it, in town, like once a month, I think, where the public could come. And they had live music, or maybe not live music sometimes, but it was a public dance.

00:41:21.000 - 00:41:53.000

And I was not allowed to go to that because it was public, but I was allowed to dance with the others. Well, I remember things that I was not allowed to do as I grew up, and as I look back, and even then, how my parents had gotten to me in such a way that I thought they were right. And when I was not allowed to do something, I could see why. And I never resented it. I never wanted to crawl out a window or anything.

00:41:53.000 - 00:42:25.000

And as I think about it, well, it is really unusual. And I was not allowed to go to those public dances, but I could go to the other dances. And then, at home, many times, my mother was outstanding in ballroom dancing. And through all the years, even in her 70s, she was winning awards from Arthur Murray and those other dance names that we know about, and was competing in the national level of some of those on ballroom dancing.

00:42:25.000 - 00:42:53.000

Did your dad enjoy that also? Yes, but now, Mother was doing all this after Daddy was already gone. And so, she was single, that she got into Arthur Murray and all of this, so she was free to do those things. But she and her -- I watched her -- I remember on her 76th birthday, I went to see her, and she said, "I'm sorry, I can't even see you tonight. I've got to go compete in this whatever, you know, this dance thing."

00:42:53.000 - 00:43:09.000

I said, "Okay, I'll go then." She was in Albuquerque at the time. And I went there, and she was competing with three other couples, with her couple and all. And I was looking, and I thought, I would have never picked her out as being any older than any of the rest of those.

00:43:09.000 - 00:43:30.000

Her body movements and everything, just as flowing as any of the youth that were there. And, of course, she and her partner won the thing. But I think, now, she was 76. I just happen to remember that particular birthday. But she was always very agile and very well-groomed, and, you know, modeling clothes and stuff like that.

00:43:30.000 - 00:43:36.000

Wow. So -- Tell me about your boyfriends in high school. Okay.

00:43:36.000 - 00:43:52.000

What were your -- what were the rules? What were the rules? Well, I had quite a bit of freedom, I think. Now, I was not allowed to really date and go away from home in a car and stuff at a really young age.

00:43:52.000 - 00:44:17.000

And, of course, the fact that a boy would ever come to the house and honk, I mean, that was a no-no. The boys came, and they were gentlemen, and they came to the door and came in and visited with your parents and then went off with the daughter. And so we had a little rules like that. But I was allowed to go to other parties and stuff.

00:44:17.000 - 00:44:38.000

I was not too restricted. And yet I can tell you one thing that happened so often. At night, parties would get together and go on weenie roasts. Well, you'd go out in the sagebrush and what have you and make your campfire, you know, like the cowboys do, and do the weenies and everything.

00:44:38.000 - 00:44:59.000

But then couples would start marching off into the Never-Never Land over here, you know, in the little bushes and what have you. And so I had been to some of them, and I didn't quite know about that. And so Mother said one time, "Well, I'll just be one of the sponsors this time," because the parents sponsored the thing. "Okay, I'll just be a sponsor."

00:44:59.000 - 00:45:16.000

And so she was going to see what was going on. Well, when she saw what was going on and couples leaving the campfire, she thought, "No, this is no place for me." So then I was restricted from ever going again. Well, I'd gone enough to say, "Yeah, they're right.

00:45:16.000 - 00:45:33.000

I don't think I need to be there, and I can do without that." And then, like, I was restricted from that. I was restricted from going to the public dances. But I was given enough other freedom that it really didn't bother me.

00:45:33.000 - 00:45:56.000

But I know that I entertained boys in my home, and I went to their home quite a bit, especially if there's not any other place really to go and you don't have a long street to march up and down, you know. Do you remember your older brother being protective of you as far as the guys going? Yes, I think so.

00:45:56.000 - 00:46:03.000

I think so. Tell me about your high school prom. High school what? Prom.

00:46:03.000 - 00:46:11.000

Prom. Oh, we had more than one. I think we had a junior and senior, both, in the proms. Oh, they were all always big things.

00:46:11.000 - 00:46:37.000

And fortunately, I never was without a date to go, and I never did worry about going. Now, I had a boyfriend more special than any of--I had one boyfriend who was more special and longer than any of the rest of them. And as a matter of fact, he still lives in Big Lake right now. What attracted you to him?

00:46:37.000 - 00:46:47.000

Good point. He lived across the street, for one thing. I don't know exactly. Isn't that strange?

00:46:47.000 - 00:47:06.000

Now, I'll tell you one thing. It's happened throughout my whole life, and it took me a long time to get aware of this, is that usually I did not pick out a guy that I wanted to go with and yearn for him to ask me. I never paid any attention to anybody.

00:47:06.000 - 00:47:34.000

Somebody was always asking me, and I paid attention to the ones that asked me. And so it could be that he asked me and I got to liking him. I don't know, but I don't think--and even my husband, I think he was probably more one that stood out to me before I ever dated him. Most of the time, I never dated anybody except they would come up to me, and I had choices there, so I never did.

00:47:34.000 - 00:47:53.000

Even like going to school at Prague, I was-- So why did your husband stand out to you? Well, he was one of my flat students in a government class. He had already had six years of college, a couple of engineering degrees, working for Phillips Petroleum at the time.

00:47:53.000 - 00:48:14.000

And I'll have to say that he was a bachelor engineer when he volunteered for this government program. I had a friend who was a bachelor engineer working for Phillips who came at the same time. His friend asked me first. I went with him.

00:48:14.000 - 00:48:42.000

And the two--I get this story later, not at the very moment, but they had a little agreement, the two of them had an agreement, and when they got home, he said, "I have asked Florine to go out," and my husband says, "I had that same idea. That's why I wanted to ask her." And so then they agreed.

00:48:42.000 - 00:49:11.000

If the first one couldn't get me on the dotted line in about four months' time, Chris was going to cut in. Well, all the time I was going with him, Chris was just kind of tooting around, hanging in the woods. And I knew, I could tell, he wanted to date me, but he wouldn't dare do it with his friend going with me. So when the time came and the friend did not get me on the dotted line, although there was not one thing about that friend,

00:49:11.000 - 00:49:25.000

I thought, "That friend is going places," and he did. I don't think I'll call his name, but he went right to the very top of Phillips Petroleum. And I knew and loved him. I knew that I could get along with him just great.

00:49:25.000 - 00:49:45.000

He was just great. But I think the chemistry was not as vibrant as it could have been. And so Chris hanging around, well, when the time was up, I mean, you talk about gentlemen, this one went away, this one came in just like anything.

00:49:45.000 - 00:50:05.000

So never was asked again by this one, and this one was on my trail all the time. And so, yes, as a student, I had seen him and everything, and I knew that you could just tell he was wanting to date me, but he wouldn't do it. He wouldn't ask me.

00:50:05.000 - 00:50:17.000

But then we got together. It was so interesting. We both played so hard to get, it's a wonder we got each other. No pushover, either one of us, no pushover.

00:50:17.000 - 00:50:33.000

And so I've laughed about that myself. It's a wonder we ever got each other. It took us forever before we ever, like, held hands. The first time he kissed me was way down the line somewhere, and by that time, I mean, stars fell and trains clashed and everything.

00:50:33.000 - 00:50:50.000

This is the way it's supposed to be. You know, I knew that it should be something like that, and sure enough, it was. And it's been that way ever since. I have had a very, very good marriage, very low-stress marriage.

00:50:50.000 - 00:51:12.000

Chris and I have the same ethical, moral values, and we don't clash. And so I see, and even in teaching college all these years, students getting together, and I think if you have the same value system, you don't have that much to clash about, because if I see a situation, I evaluate that as black, and he looks, "Yeah, that is black."

00:51:12.000 - 00:51:29.000

Now, otherwise, someone will say, "No, that looks a little gray or white," you know. "No, it's black, it's white." Well, you're like this, whether it's on spending money or whatever the issue is. If you don't kind of think alike and have the same foundation, then there's things to fuss about.

00:51:29.000 - 00:51:52.000

Or how to rear children, there's things to fuss about if you don't have the same value system. And so we have, and so we just never have found very much to really fuss about, which is so nice. And he lets me do anything that I want to do, and I let him do the same thing. We trust each other, and he's always eager for me to go do anything, like what I'm doing today,

00:51:52.000 - 00:52:09.000

or go out of town to do speaking or anything. He encourages me, he'll take me to the airport, pick me up at midnight, never complain. And he's very emotionally mature, and he's not home sucking his thumb while I'm out doing stuff. And I do not have to worry about him.

00:52:09.000 - 00:52:30.000

I don't have to worry about him running off and playing the bad way while I'm gone. I thought about that one time, good grief, if I didn't trust him completely, I wouldn't go off and leave him. But same thing, he trusts me and we trust each other, and we have the freedom we give each other. And he can do anything at home I can do, and twice as well, and will and doesn't complain,

00:52:30.000 - 00:52:54.000

and take care of himself just fine. And so he's just a very unique guy, and he's not a whiner or anything, very, as I call him, emotionally mature. And so it has been such a blessing to me because I haven't been under stress trying to live with him. And I've seen a lot of other couples that get stressed out a lot.

00:52:54.000 - 00:53:14.000

And he, well, like when I came here today, he's running upstairs with a cup of coffee and a glass of orange juice while I'm putting on my makeup and everything. And then I come back downstairs, and he had my breakfast ready for me. And so you can't get any better than that, you know.

00:53:14.000 - 00:53:25.000

I'm going to take you back now to your high school prom. I know you were-- Oh, yeah, we finally got off, and I finally got a man later on, didn't I? But in the high school prom--

00:53:25.000 - 00:53:32.000

You took home economics. Did you make your dress for the prom? I don't think I did. I don't think I did.

00:53:32.000 - 00:53:48.000

I might have been really--I might have found something I really liked. But now my mother sewed. My mother sewed, and we had a lot of stuff that both of us sewed, a lot of it. And I always felt that I had decent clothes and the proper style clothes.

00:53:48.000 - 00:54:06.000

So if Mother I didn't make that dress, I found one I really liked. But I always felt as if I was dressed properly. And I think that is important to anybody, and that's what you'd want your own girls to always feel, that they're dressed properly.

00:54:06.000 - 00:54:23.000

And I remember working on a dress. I didn't finish this dress all by myself. But one, I think when I was in the fourth grade, I was given a $10 gold piece on the stage at graduation time

00:54:23.000 - 00:54:44.000

because I had made the highest grade in the county. And my father, who was president of the school board, presented me the $10 gold piece. And did you know that later on, Roosevelt comes along and declares gold like illegal to buy, and everybody bring your gold in.

00:54:44.000 - 00:54:59.000

My honest, civic-minded father took my $10 gold piece and turned it in. I said, "Daddy, what do you do that for?" "Well, I think that's the proper thing to do." He was just too civic-minded.

00:54:59.000 - 00:55:12.000

But I don't have my $10 gold piece, but the dress, which made me think of that. I had a white dress and thought it was really nice, and I worked on that dress, but I didn't do all that. Mother and I put that one together.

00:55:12.000 - 00:55:27.000

But the one that I told you about, the first one that I really did all by myself, I can remember exactly what it looks like when I was nine years old. But I did. >>As you were growing up, what did your mother and dad do

00:55:27.000 - 00:55:42.000

to participate with you kids in school things? What activities were they involved with in school? >>You know, they're always having room mothers to do this and that. Well, my mother with her four kids, I don't know how she did all that stuff.

00:55:42.000 - 00:55:57.000

But she would be room mother, and she'd bring cookies and this and that or have kids at our house. We always had interaction with the kids in town. I think in a smaller town, you have more of a camaraderie probably.

00:55:57.000 - 00:56:08.000

You know who they are, and they know who you are. and what's expected of you. And I think maybe you have better manners and everything else because there's more accountability.

00:56:08.000 - 00:56:22.000

I've been so aware of that. I've lived in Houston and Beaumont, and my kids have gone to school there and everything. Well, you can tell there's not that accountability at all. A kid can smart off to another one and go home,

00:56:22.000 - 00:56:37.000

and the other kid's way across town, never see them again, never have to count to the parents again or anything. Well, you couldn't do that in a small town. And so we had a kind of close-knit group, but my parents--

00:56:37.000 - 00:56:50.000

Now, my father, I don't know, went to the school proper, like a mother would take in goodies and this kind of thing or participating in any of the art fairs or whatever. They had science fairs.

00:56:50.000 - 00:57:05.000

They would help us with any of the projects we had. We'd have papers to write. You'd have science kind of things to do. And, yes, my parents were always very, very helpful.

00:57:05.000 - 00:57:09.000

How about PTA? Huh? PTA. Oh, PTA, oh, yeah, PTA.

00:57:09.000 - 00:57:20.000

Mother was like, "I can never get out of PTA." And for me, I was in PTA, and I thought, "It's a good thing I don't have another child. I'd never get out of PTA." That was--oh, yeah, she went to PTA.

00:57:20.000 - 00:57:37.000

And Mother was superintendent of the Sunday school at church. I mean, she took an active leadership role in most everything she was involved in. And, of course, I have seen my parents being in leadership roles. They just seemed like normal things to do.

00:57:37.000 - 00:58:00.000

You know, if something needed to be done, "Okay, I guess I'll do that." And so it doesn't seem like it's unusual that you should take a leadership role in everything. Let me ask you about the little girl that was of a different background, ethnic background, than you. As you grew up, were there other--

00:58:00.000 - 00:58:09.000

Not at all. --or you're integrated at all? Not at all. Our community did not have any, and I don't even know where this one little black girl came from.

00:58:09.000 - 00:58:32.000

And I don't recall being with her very much, no short period of time in there. And I don't recall even being around many. And we didn't have any--we would say Mexican, they'll call it Latino or whatever word you want to use, anyway, from Mexico. We did not really have those as citizens of the town.

00:58:32.000 - 00:58:49.000

And so I didn't get much of that. But I think we're all broad-minded enough. I've never been what I called prejudiced, although I think all of us have a built-in prejudice, whether we think we do or not. But for me, I would have a very minimal amount.

00:58:49.000 - 00:59:00.000

Were you ever in Girl Scouts? No, we didn't even have a Girl Scout thing. I was full of all other kinds of activities, but it wasn't Girl Scout. Okay.

00:59:00.000 - 00:59:08.000

I would have been if they'd had one there. I'd have done it. You know. You know, if there's another thing to get in an organization, yeah, I'd have been there.

00:59:08.000 - 00:59:19.000

Let's talk about your graduation. Tell me about graduation from high school. Well, I think it was just kind of like routine. Did you have caps and gowns?

00:59:19.000 - 00:59:23.000

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We had caps and gowns. Okay.

00:59:23.000 - 00:59:32.000

Did you have to give a speech? Where did you stand in your class at graduation? Well, I stood in my class. There were three of us right at the top.

00:59:32.000 - 00:59:53.000

We were within one-tenth of a point from each other, a tenth of one point. I missed out on the top, my tenth of a point, down the second one. But, you know, I never did try for that. It's strange enough.

00:59:53.000 - 01:00:13.000

I always just kind of did my best, but I never had a goal like I'm going to be valedictorian. The other two there that we were just neck and neck the whole time were out to get it. I mean, they were determined and everything. Well, I had so many other--and they didn't--I had so many other activities and stuff going on

01:00:13.000 - 01:00:29.000

that I wanted to do my best, but I wasn't consumed with it, I can say. But I have always made straight A's through college. I graduated with honors in college. And so, you know, I wasn't hurting any.

01:00:29.000 - 01:00:41.000

But-- When you graduated from high school, were your plans already set what you would do next? No, no, it really wasn't. Now, see, I graduated at 16.

01:00:41.000 - 01:01:03.000

And so that's when I took one year--that's when I worked for the county attorney. And I was not really ready to go to college, and I wasn't really pushing for that at that time. I guess the youth--I could see that I could be doing this other--better and then go off to college. And so I stayed out one year.

01:01:03.000 - 01:01:23.000

And during that year, I taught myself shorthand. If you talk about something hard--oh, I bit my nails, I could have pulled out my hair. And teaching myself shorthand, and there was one girl in town who knew shorthand. And I'd get on the phone and call her, "What about so-and-so?"

01:01:23.000 - 01:01:36.000

Did you have shorthand--was there a shorthand class in high school? No, no, I never heard or saw shorthand. But I thought I wanted to know shorthand. And through this girl, she gave me her books that she had had.

01:01:36.000 - 01:01:50.000

And I guess I ordered my own or something. But anyway, that's how I got on to the availability of even something to study and work on. And I worked on that. And that was really hard.

01:01:50.000 - 01:02:04.000

That took something out of me more than going through high school. I tried to learn that shorthand by myself. And did a fair, decent job of it and then took it in college. And then when I went to Baylor University, I took advanced shorthand.

01:02:04.000 - 01:02:24.000

And the teacher--I have a letter from her at home that she--when I got into the service, she read about it, apparently, after I'd been in there a while and knew that I was flying airplanes, and she wrote me this real sweet letter thanking me for going to the service.

01:02:24.000 - 01:02:42.000

But also she said, "I still can't get over the fact that you taught yourself shorthand and how well you did in shorthand." Of course, I made my A's in shorthand with her in advanced shorthand at Baylor. And I had forgotten all about that until I saw that letter not long ago.

01:02:42.000 - 01:02:59.000

And I thought, "Oh!" She had said that she couldn't imagine that I had learned shorthand by myself. And I guess that was more unusual because I don't know who would stick it out. I don't know why I stuck it out, but I did. When you were working that first year, were you living at home?

01:02:59.000 - 01:03:24.000

Yes, I was living at home. And then when you finished that year, then what made you decide to go on to college? Well, because I think--because I got into the county attorney, and through the county attorney I was introduced to the district attorney for that whole district.

01:03:24.000 - 01:03:44.000

And then the district attorney happened to be friends of my family also. So it was all in this setting, and the district attorney said, "Come to Alpine, go to school in Alpine, and work for me part-time." Do you remember leaving home? How did that make you feel?

01:03:44.000 - 01:03:59.000

I guess maybe I was ready for it. I wasn't too torn up about it. How did your mom and dad feel? I don't know, to tell you the truth. I guess they accepted what should be coming, you know.

01:03:59.000 - 01:04:13.000

It's like when your own kids go to college. When they first go to school, you think, "Oh, my little dear, he's growing up. He's going to first grade. Tears, tears." And then the next thing, out of high school, oh, too bad, out of high school.

01:04:13.000 - 01:04:30.000

And then they go off to college, they think, "Oh, I'm ruined. I'm lost." My empty-nest syndrome, you know, oh, horrible. Well, mother has a few kids at home, so I don't think it tore her up. But I remember when our girls went to college, you know, that's a difference.

01:04:30.000 - 01:04:44.000

You're out of a home, and I think it's more different, maybe even now, than it was then when you would leave. And then, the next thing you know, "Oh, my little dear is getting married." And so they get married, and next thing they're getting married,

01:04:44.000 - 01:05:02.000

and they have kids, and come home and visit. And stay too long, you think, "Boy, isn't it nice to have them all gone?" And so, you know what, I think all along, the Lord takes care of your altitude, as I say. In each one of these steps, he prepares you for each one,

01:05:02.000 - 01:05:20.000

to where you can accommodate that situation being a change in your life. And if he didn't accommodate you some way, and you didn't get a mindset toward it, you'd be home again, like I say, sucking your thumb and saying, "Oh, life is not what it ought to be," and blah, blah, blah.

01:05:20.000 - 01:05:45.000

Instead of going out and finding something else to do to offset this so-called loss at the moment, and not dwell on that loss, but then assume that it's going to grow, and it's going to get bigger, and then you're going to get more camaraderie in the future and everything. So I guess I'm always looking for better things,

01:05:45.000 - 01:05:57.000

or at least things that are not going to go downhill. The perpetual optimist. You know, when a tornado comes along and everything, it's always going to hit someplace else. It's not ever going to hit where I am.

01:05:57.000 - 01:06:10.000

So I'm never that--that word, the odds, you know, I don't sweat the odds that way. I think of the odds are it's not going to hit me. And so I go on. When you got to Alpine, where did you live?

01:06:10.000 - 01:06:20.000

I lived in the dormitory. I lived in the dormitory and went to work. And you'd go to school part of the time and work part of the time? Part of the time and then the off time in the afternoons.

01:06:20.000 - 01:06:33.000

I got most morning classes, and then I worked in the afternoons. And at Alpine, what was your goal? My goal was business. That was my major, just to learn more about business.

01:06:33.000 - 01:06:43.000

Tell me about some of your social activities in Alpine. Did you still remain in a church there as well? Not as much. You know, when you go to college, you get sidetracked,

01:06:43.000 - 01:06:56.000

and then there's transportation to get there and all that. No, I wasn't too active in the church there, I'll have to say. I guess maybe going to school and working, maybe I studied all Sunday. I don't know what happened.

01:06:56.000 - 01:07:09.000

But I remember going to church some, but I was not--I wasn't a good church member, I'd say. Do you remember any special friends that you had at Alpine? Have you remained friends? Not really.

01:07:09.000 - 01:07:23.000

The ones that remained are the Baylor ones that I do. I don't know, maybe I was working too much, or we all got scattered from each other. And you went two years to Alpine? No, just one.

01:07:23.000 - 01:07:31.000

Just one. Then what made you decide to go to Baylor? That's a good point. I don't know.

01:07:31.000 - 01:07:51.000

Either my district attorney's job changed somewhat, or he was doing something different or whatever, and I thought, "Well, I'll just go to the--." I always had kind of Baylor in the back of my mind. I guess being the Baptist, you don't always hear of Baylor.

01:07:51.000 - 01:08:04.000

And so I think the Alpine was something new that came in. And then I guess it went out just because it came in, and I took off to Baylor. Do you remember how you got to Baylor? No.

01:08:04.000 - 01:08:13.000

I don't remember. And I didn't have a car. We weren't allowed cars at that time, certainly not on campus. Where did you live?

01:08:13.000 - 01:08:33.000

I lived in a memorial dorm up in a corner room, a corner room where my boyfriend could come along the sidewalk and whistle his whistle, and my head was out the window, and I knew who that was. Tell me about some of the regulations and rules at Baylor when you were there, as far as dress, for example.

01:08:33.000 - 01:08:47.000

Could you wear slacks? No, I don't think so. I don't think we even--it never crossed our mind. And even after I started flying, my father did not want me to come to the jewelry store in slacks.

01:08:47.000 - 01:09:11.000

Even if I came from the airport, I never went by there in a pair of pants, if I wore pants. As you look back, what was special about Baylor to you? Well, the thing I remember special about Baylor was my boyfriend. And other than that, going to chapel each time, I thought that was very good.

01:09:11.000 - 01:09:26.000

And I did enjoy my classes. I enjoyed my teachers. And I remember one teacher--I can't think of his name--in literature. Oh, he loved his literature.

01:09:26.000 - 01:09:43.000

He'd get up and he just--oh, just absolutely drew over reading some of this literature or some of the poetry or whatever. He was just enthralled. And I thought, "How can he get so turned on by that?" And he would just get so turned on.

01:09:43.000 - 01:10:02.000

And I guess my being a little bit more practical, I was going to get turned on with something else. But I was impressed with how he could teach and just live of the poetry and stuff. Now, I can get in Scripture and do this. Ah, you know, I can get turned on.

01:10:02.000 - 01:10:17.000

But the literature didn't turn me on as much as it turned him on. But I was eager to--I was enthralled with what he was enthralled in because he was. Was Dr. Armstrong-- No, it wasn't--I don't know who that was.

01:10:17.000 - 01:10:28.000

I cannot think of his name. But anyway-- What did you do socially at Baylor? Socially at Baylor, not just a great deal.

01:10:28.000 - 01:10:40.000

But I know there was not that much. We could not get off the campus very much. We didn't have time. We didn't have the transportation.

01:10:40.000 - 01:10:56.000

Nobody had cars. And there was a little house across the street that served sandwiches, I think, and so forth. And the kids could go over there and smoke. And I know some of them that I knew would go across, get out of the dormitory and go over there and smoke.

01:10:56.000 - 01:11:12.000

Now, I have never smoked. Well, I can't say that. When I was like in the sixth grade, I was out behind the garage in the barn sitting on a bale of hay, mind you, and I was smoking cedar bark.

01:11:12.000 - 01:11:26.000

We could have burned up the whole place, you know, with the hay and everything. But I smoked out behind the barn with the boys. And after I did that a time or two, I thought, well, I've done that. That's enough.

01:11:26.000 - 01:11:37.000

That's not so great. And so that's the last I ever even desired to smoke. And so I was spared all that. But anyway, we'd go to that little place.

01:11:37.000 - 01:11:52.000

I'd go over there with my friends and everything. And I don't remember any great kind of social affairs. Do you remember any particular church that you went to? No.

01:11:52.000 - 01:12:09.000

I went to more than one, but I don't think I joined any of them. Tell me about your boyfriend. My boyfriend was a darling boyfriend, and he is dead now. But he was studying to be in the ministry.

01:12:09.000 - 01:12:27.000

And ironically enough, we dated several times before I knew that. He kept it from me on purpose, he said, that he was a Baptist preacher, that he didn't want me to know because he thought I wouldn't go with him. And I said, "Yeah, I would have good looking as he could be,"

01:12:27.000 - 01:12:51.000

and ended up being the Baptist preacher of Tyler, First Baptist Church, for 25 years, I guess, retired and had a heart attack. And I saw him in between the years. But now the reason that I did not marry him, and I knew that I could.

01:12:51.000 - 01:13:08.000

He was a lovable, lovable, good-looking, full of fun guy. But I was not ready to be a preacher's wife. I said, "I think God calls women to be preacher's wives as much as they do preachers." And my having that feeling, I said, "God has not called me.

01:13:08.000 - 01:13:21.000

I do not feel a call for this." And I said, "I know I can do it, but to really have a call for it." And so I turned him down. And, oh, that was really bad stuff.

01:13:21.000 - 01:13:30.000

He said, "Well, I just won't be a preacher." I said, "Oh, I'm having no part of that. I'm having no part of that. If you're going to be a preacher, I'm not keeping you from it.

01:13:30.000 - 01:13:45.000

Somebody else will have to." But he came to see me after I was flying, and I took him up and everything. And we were friends through the years. And he did marry someone that he was very happy with, and so I'm glad.

01:13:45.000 - 01:13:57.000

And my children have seen him. I said, "Oh, Mother, would he have been our father?" They were impressed. But he's just a darling person.

01:13:57.000 - 01:14:09.000

Now, I could be a preacher's wife now much better than I could at that time. See, I was not that called. I wasn't called, and I wasn't that ready. And I did not want to hold him down or do that to him.

01:14:09.000 - 01:14:21.000

I didn't think it was fair. Could I ask you, somewhere in your background, is there a preacher in your family? No, not in my immediate family. Not in my immediate family.

01:14:21.000 - 01:14:37.000

Of course, then I married a Presbyterian minister's son. See, it's in his. It's in his, but that was after the fact. See, I had already turned this one down before I met Chris, my present husband.

01:14:37.000 - 01:14:52.000

I had already decided that I could not do that. What did you love about Baylor? About Baylor? I just loved the kind of a clean atmosphere, the feeling, whether it's so or not,

01:14:52.000 - 01:15:11.000

that a lot of moral people who loved the Lord who were there. Now, there may not have been, and, you know, they're going to get some of it. And now, as time goes on, you know, everybody comes for different reasons, not necessarily for that. But I felt that I was in more of an atmosphere that suited me.

01:15:11.000 - 01:15:31.000

And I think I would think that today, whether it's 100% true, it's not, but more so maybe in some other campus. See, if you're going to compare campus to campus, some going on. But you had an opportunity there to love the Lord and speak of him and not be embarrassed about it

01:15:31.000 - 01:15:44.000

and to have some camaraderie with somebody else who might be of the same mindset. Do you remember your roommate? Yes, Mildred Adams. She lives in Brownfield right now.

01:15:44.000 - 01:15:58.000

Yes, I lived in the corner suite where we had eight girls in the corner suite, two, two, two, and two, and one bathroom for all of us. And so we got to know them in the suite of rooms. And I enjoyed that.

01:15:58.000 - 01:16:17.000

It's on the second floor. And, yes, the things I remember most is camaraderie with these girls and my boyfriend and the fact that I felt the campus had a very sweet atmosphere and the fact that we all spoke to each other as we passed each other,

01:16:17.000 - 01:16:24.000

and I guess they still do that now. That's the thing you do. You speak as you pass, whether you know them or not. And I like that.

01:16:24.000 - 01:16:37.000

I like that because I'm likely the one to be speaking first and think, "What does she want?" You know, you go to New York City or something and you start speaking to people, you know, "What does she want? What's her problem?"

01:16:37.000 - 01:16:47.000

Did you get involved in any of the clubs? I know at that time they didn't have sororities. No. I did some of the business clubs, forgetting what they were called,

01:16:47.000 - 01:17:07.000

but some of those that had clubs attached to the subject you took in the business particularly. At Baylor, did you use your music skills or your dancing skills while you were at Baylor at all? No, I really didn't. We didn't have any dances to go to.

01:17:07.000 - 01:17:23.000

My skill mostly was trying to pass all my tests and date. When you finished your freshman year at Baylor, then did you come home for the summer? No, I was a sophomore there. I went one year, my sophomore year.

01:17:23.000 - 01:17:33.000

Oh, okay. But I quit to fly airplanes, and that's why I didn't go back. What gave you the love of airplanes? What was that?

01:17:33.000 - 01:17:40.000

What gave you that love of airplanes? Do you remember the first airplane you ever saw? Tell us about that. Yeah, I do.

01:17:40.000 - 01:18:12.000

If we're going to take off on the airplane part, yes, I remember very well. I was like eight years old when I took my first airplane ride in an open cockpit by wing. Those were the days between World War I, World War II, and the World War I pilots, I suppose, probably was the one that was flying through barnstorming to make money to pay his gasoline and stuff.

01:18:12.000 - 01:18:32.000

He'd fly over the town and burp on the throttle, burp, burp, burp, you know, and the sky was so quiet all the time, and you'd hear that, "Wow, what is that?" Everybody would run outside and take a look up in the sky and see an airplane going over, unusual, and making noise, and he'd fly around the town two or three times, you know,

01:18:32.000 - 01:18:50.000

and keep calling attention to himself. And then he'd wiggle his wings like crazy and take off in a certain direction he had picked out where he was going to land, out in the prairie. And so my father, when that would happen, would come get me and take me out there.

01:18:50.000 - 01:19:13.000

Now he'd come go get the boys, but he always got me by myself, then and all the time since. So it was a very, very special time for me. And so he came to get me, that's the first time, and we drove out there, and Daddy pulled out his money, bought me a ticket, and saw to it I got in that airplane,

01:19:13.000 - 01:19:33.000

and opened cockpit, you know, and was sitting there, and took off, and looked around at the horizon below. I could not believe this beautiful display of God's earth that was under me. I'd never seen anything like that before. We didn't have television.

01:19:33.000 - 01:19:45.000

We didn't have a lot of pictures or anything that I had ever seen to show what the ground looked like when you were up in the air. And now, you know, it's there everywhere. If you never fly, you know what that looks like.

01:19:45.000 - 01:20:08.000

Well, I looked up there, and sticking my head out over the side and the wind blowing and everything, I thought I was a bird. I thought, "Oh, this is what -- Lord has the birds up here flying, and this is what they see." And I was just so excited, so enthralled with this whole new part of the world that God made birds to fly,

01:20:08.000 - 01:20:24.000

not me, but I'm up here with the birds. And so, very much impression. And so, I get down, and my father buys himself a ticket, and he goes up. And he's no pilot either, so he goes up, and, oh, we come down, and we both just think that is the stuff,

01:20:24.000 - 01:20:40.000

holding hands, walking off of that prairie to the car, giggling and having ourselves a ball, and just saying how great it is and all. And then this happened several times through the years, through the high school years, and he'd come get me.

01:20:40.000 - 01:21:08.000

He'd find me whenever they'd come. And as I say, he'd take the boys, but I was always the one he came after alone and so very special. And so, when I was in Baylor that sophomore year, in the spring, he called me and said, "Guess what? I have bought us a beautiful silver Luscombe airplane."

01:21:08.000 - 01:21:19.000

I said, "Airplane, old daddy? You've got us an airplane?" "Oh, yes, I bought us an airplane." And neither one of us knew how to fly, but he bought that thing.

01:21:19.000 - 01:21:31.000

And so, I thought, "Oh, I've got to go home and fly that airplane." Well, here I was in all my subjects and everything, and I always made straight A's all my life. I thought, "I'm going to flunk out, sure. I don't care a whit about what I'm listening to in the classroom.

01:21:31.000 - 01:21:43.000

I want to go home and fly that airplane." And so, I had to sit there another month and a half at least, or maybe two months. I don't know. But I had a long time to sweat it out, see.

01:21:43.000 - 01:21:57.000

Now, that's part of it I remember about Baylor, sweating it out, wanting to get home, get on that airplane. Now, I didn't know when I went home if I--I never thought then that I wouldn't come back. I just knew I was going to fly that airplane. Let the rest take care of itself.

01:21:57.000 - 01:22:16.000

Let the future take care of itself. And so, that's when I marched home and saw that airplane and kissed that thing and got in it and took off. And so, my two brothers and father and I flew that airplane. We never let the engine get cold.

01:22:16.000 - 01:22:26.000

I'm telling you, we had that thing in the air all the time. And you never had any--oh. Oh. We're going to have to put it in the tape.

01:22:26.000 - 01:22:37.000

How did you know how to even get in that airplane? Oh, well, I'll explain that later. We're starting off now, just first starting to fly, don't we? Right.

01:22:37.000 - 01:22:49.000

Okay, why don't we take it up from there, where I went from there before I get in the service. Yeah, that's where I want to be. I want to be at this Luscombe when you said you didn't have a flight instructor. Oh, you're talking about--you're talking about the Luscombe.

01:22:49.000 - 01:22:55.000

Right. Oh, yes, I had a flight instructor. Okay. How did you select a flight instructor?

01:22:55.000 - 01:23:00.000

Where did you learn from? Okay. Are we on? We're rolling.

01:23:00.000 - 01:23:13.000

Okay. Well, when we wanted to learn how to fly, of course, you need an instructor. You can't go out and ruin your airplane right off by yourself. So this was in Odessa, and there was an airport in Odessa,

01:23:13.000 - 01:23:31.000

and the owner of the airport was named Don Teel, and he was the first instructor that we had, and then he had already hired some other men instructors. There were some private pilots who were just starting to come out to learn how to fly then.

01:23:31.000 - 01:23:47.000

And so I had another instructor by the name of Jack Fitzgerald, and then I had one--Murray Cannon was there. I'm trying to think of some of the names of the men. But I did have very good instruction.

01:23:47.000 - 01:24:08.000

And the things that I learned from them, especially one of them, I know, saved my neck at one time. But I think that when you learn how to fly or learn how to do anything, the quality of the instruction you get is so critical because you can do and will do what your instructor tells you to do,

01:24:08.000 - 01:24:37.000

and if he doesn't tell you to do very much or the where's and why forward, you don't get it. Now, the owner of the airport, Don Teel, was the one that went on to fly all over the world during the war, and then when he came back, he was the head aviation executive, we'll say, for United States Steel for the whole world.

01:24:37.000 - 01:24:56.000

And then he flew bigwigs all over the whole world for United States Steel, which that was a big thing in those days in the steel. And so do you know that he is still living, and he's 93 years old, and I'm in contact with him? And it's just really nice, and he has all his mental facilities and everything.

01:24:56.000 - 01:25:03.000

>> When you were learning to fly, were you living at home and-- >> I was living at home. >> --and commuting? >> Uh-huh.

01:25:03.000 - 01:25:26.000

I was living at home, my father and two brothers and I learned how to fly at the same time. And so we all had our instructors and so forth, and I would-- >> Did you each have different instructors or the same instructors? >> Well, we each had some of the same and some different, and I think we were not all--we all had more than one instructor, I think.

01:25:26.000 - 01:25:45.000

And I think in a way that's good, but usually one main one that is really responsible for you and to you, and you might-- >> Right. >> --especially to solo, and after that you may have different ones that would teach you different things perhaps. >> Tell me about your solo.

01:25:45.000 - 01:26:09.000

>> My solo, well, I was so dumb I thought I could do it. I did--I do not recall being all excited, biting my nails or anything at that time. I guess I must have thought, "Well, I can do this." It goes back to thinking about the little kid on the train, you know, "Don't be so solicitous.

01:26:09.000 - 01:26:17.000

I can take care of myself," you know. And maybe that's what I thought. I don't know, but it was exciting. >> Who soloed first?

01:26:17.000 - 01:26:24.000

>> I did. >> You did? >> And the reason that I did and got my other things before is I had more time than they did. >> Okay.

01:26:24.000 - 01:26:43.000

>> I had more--I was more eager and I just spent more time at it and kept up with it more. Of course, Daddy had to work and my brother was working in the jewelry store, and so we had to kind of get our time. I could do a lot of flying while they couldn't, and so I got ahead of them.

01:26:43.000 - 01:26:59.000

And the one thing that this instructor I said, "Oh, Jack, was just really picky." And it's better if you have an instructor who is just real picky. You do it just right. You say, "All right, I won't have it any other way."

01:26:59.000 - 01:27:10.000

Just right. Well, one thing that he would always do with me is be flying along. Whenever he pleased, he'd just cut the engine. "Where are you going to land?

01:27:10.000 - 01:27:25.000

Where are you going to land?" Well, and he'd make you--your whole pattern, pick out whatever, and almost touch the ground to see if you'd get in wherever you were going to force land that thing. And in those days, your engine did quit you a lot more than they do today, so that was an issue.

01:27:25.000 - 01:27:40.000

But that was one of the things that he did. And so while you were flying along, you always had in mind what was down here on the ground. If he does that to me now, where am I going? So you'd always have that idea, "I've got to be ready for his little tricks."

01:27:40.000 - 01:27:59.000

And another thing that he was very picky about is that when you came in to land, he would have a place picked out on that runway that he wanted you to hit. Now, he wanted you to stall out. He didn't want you just to fly by it, but you are to land, to stall out,

01:27:59.000 - 01:28:19.000

all three wheels wham at the spot that he picked out. Well, that was a real jiggle thing all the time that he insisted on, that you will land right here and I won't have it any other way. And if you do it not so well, you just didn't do so hot today,

01:28:19.000 - 01:28:34.000

I think you better go try again, get your depth perception and everything a little warmed up to land it right here, get the feel of that thing. And then we completely stalled out everything. There was no flying in on your wheels like there is today.

01:28:34.000 - 01:28:50.000

And you don't have to be that picky today because you just fly in and you'll get at low speed, almost stall, maybe low speed, but you go on your wheels and run down the runway somewhere and pretty soon the nose wheel comes down and pretty soon the thing really stalls out on you.

01:28:50.000 - 01:29:14.000

Well, this, he wants you to come in and stall it out right there. Well, I practiced that a lot and got to where I could pretty well please the old boy. Then when I got into the military, I thought, you know, that is a good skill to keep up. And so every time I'd get in a plane, all the new airports everywhere,

01:29:14.000 - 01:29:32.000

where you never had been in before or maybe you had, but before I landed I'd go around and in my mind I'd pick out a spot on that runway that I intended to stall out on, I intended to put it down right there. And so I would give myself a test every time I landed an airplane.

01:29:32.000 - 01:29:48.000

I will stop it here. I'm not going to just la-dee-dah as long as I have a good runway and come wait out here somewhere. And I practiced that skill the whole time. Well, one time, I might tell you about it, that it really saved my life,

01:29:48.000 - 01:30:07.000

that I had the confidence I think I can put it where I want to put it. Now, unless you practice that, you don't, and even after you practice it all the time, you're not so darn sure you can do it because every time it's a little bit different, but at least it would give you a confidence that you'd stick your neck out and try when you're in trouble.

01:30:07.000 - 01:30:38.000

And so that came in good. But these were in Odessa, and then I went on to get my private pilot license, my commercial license, and then my instructor rating in the air, and then my instructor rating on all the ground school courses. And so during this time, the military was getting a little afraid of not having enough pilots in case we needed them

01:30:38.000 - 01:30:57.000

and started the war training program classes. Okay. Let me back up just a moment and ask you where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor, and how did that affect you? Okay. Since that was my birthday, you bet I remember that very well.

01:30:57.000 - 01:31:26.000

Well, we had gone out to -- my mother and I and Chris, whom I was dating at the time, were out at a friend's house out on a ranch, and we had spent the night and done a bunch of stuff out there, came into town the next day, and I had a student to teach flying schedule, I think at 2 o'clock, something like that. And so I tried out to the airport to teach my student and opened the door of the office,

01:31:26.000 - 01:31:46.000

and here a bunch of people were sitting around. And I looked around, I saw long-faced people, you know, and so they saw the look on my face, "What's going on?" Somebody said, "Pearl Harbor's been bombed." And I stood there like a dodo, and I thought, "Well, so where's Pearl Harbor?

01:31:46.000 - 01:32:06.000

Why are you upset about this?" And pretty soon they saw that I didn't know where Pearl Harbor was, and somebody said, "That's Hawaii." And then I thought again, "Well, so why the anxiety here?" And then it hit me, "That's us."

01:32:06.000 - 01:32:19.000

It wasn't a state then, but that was part of our little territory. It took me a long time. I stood there, "That's us." And then I thought, "Oh, my word, who's bothering us?" Well, the Japanese are bothering us and everything.

01:32:19.000 - 01:32:37.000

And so that's when I remember about Pearl Harbor, and that shows how America was not ready for this. And who heard of Pearl Harbor? Who would have known the name of a harbor over in Hawaii? We had no really reason to know that at that time.

01:32:37.000 - 01:32:49.000

And, of course, I may excuse my ignorance maybe, but it's true. I wasn't the only one that didn't know where that was. And so I went on and taught my students then. >> Let me back up to when you first started teaching students.

01:32:49.000 - 01:33:08.000

How did you get into teaching students? >> How did I get into teaching? Well, my Don Teal, owner of the airport, hired me as the teacher. And I think maybe from the very outset, I was going to teach private pilots maybe who came,

01:33:08.000 - 01:33:27.000

anybody who wanted it. But almost immediately, it seemed like almost immediately, this other class started. And then I was to teach. Now, the way that class worked is if 50 volunteer men signed up, and they didn't have a --

01:33:27.000 - 01:33:45.000

they had a wide age range on them, so you didn't have to just get 18, 20-year-olds. And as I look back on it, I don't know where all those men came from, but there were a gob of them. You'd have 50 men that would sign up, and they'd take the ground school classes. And I don't remember how long it was, maybe a couple of months or something.

01:33:45.000 - 01:34:03.000

And the ones that got the 10 highest grades on paper got to have a free private pilot license given to them by the government, no strings attached. You could just take it, walk off, or take it and volunteer for the Air Force. That's what they wanted.

01:34:03.000 - 01:34:18.000

But this was the way civilians would help train all the men they couldn't train that fast. Did that have a -- it wasn't CPT, was it? No, no, it was not CPT. And I think this was like a graduate course or a thing that came on after CPT

01:34:18.000 - 01:34:36.000

and no doubt developed from CPT. So I'd say it was a brother somehow, but it had war training programs, all we ever called it. And then I had three classes going, one in the morning, one afternoon, and one night. Would you use your own airplane or somebody --

01:34:36.000 - 01:34:51.000

We used -- I couldn't use my airplane, but we used the ones that were owned by the business, by the airport, and the airport owned a number of them. It's amazing when I look back how many airports they had. I wanted to ask you about a Luscombe.

01:34:51.000 - 01:34:58.000

Describe that airplane. Was it tandem? Uh-huh, side by side. It was side by side here.

01:34:58.000 - 01:35:17.000

Okay. And it had the tail wheel and just a slick little silver body to it. They still have them now, but fly them or just -- well, they are. There still are some silver Luscombes, but it's all silver.

01:35:17.000 - 01:35:32.000

Now, in those days, most of them were like the Cubs and the Taylorcraft and the Aroncas. We had those three brands, but they looked similar in like painted canvas. But this was slick silver. And an enclosed cockpit.

01:35:32.000 - 01:35:41.000

Enclosed, enclosed cockpit. Okay. And side by side and tail wheel. So it sat up just like the rest of them at the tail wheel.

01:35:41.000 - 01:35:45.000

And maybe 65 horsepower? Yeah. Okay. That's right.

01:35:45.000 - 01:36:01.000

And it was a little more touchy to fly than the others. Not quite as easy, I guess you'd say. A little more sensitive, we'll say. So what other airplanes did you instruct them?

01:36:01.000 - 01:36:13.000

What other types? That's about all. And those other three or four brands that were pretty close to each other. And you had a Cub and a Cub Cruiser.

01:36:13.000 - 01:36:30.000

Now, one Cub had seats front and back, but then the Cruiser had seats for two people back here in the back. So it was a little bit heavier and a little bit larger. Which did you enjoy the most? I guess I enjoyed the Luscombe by far.

01:36:30.000 - 01:36:48.000

It was just a better flying airplane. But all those were about the same, I think. Do you remember any particular student that you taught? Well, it seemed like I taught a number of them.

01:36:48.000 - 01:37:03.000

And you probably would remember more the one that gave you trouble. I don't seem to have one like that. And, of course, Chris, my husband, was in one of these classes. And that's where I met him.

01:37:03.000 - 01:37:21.000

He and his engineer, bachelor engineering friend, who they were working for Phillips at the time. I said Chris had already had his six years of college with Phillips and everything. And so he came to me saucered and blowed. I didn't have to send him to school or anything.

01:37:21.000 - 01:37:42.000

And so, anyway, they were in the class. But they both got the top ten and got a flight lesson. So I had them in the air as well as I had some of the others in the air. And so I was teaching either ground school or in the air, day and night.

01:37:42.000 - 01:37:54.000

Did you have any female students? No. And I didn't even see any female students until I got into the military. And we saw each other.

01:37:54.000 - 01:38:04.000

That was a new thing to me. I thought, good grief, where did you come from? Are you crazy too? What made you think you could do that when you didn't know any other female?

01:38:04.000 - 01:38:11.000

I didn't know any other. Well, I don't know. It's just I guess this is the way it had been all my life. Here's an opportunity.

01:38:11.000 - 01:38:22.000

I'll just do that. And it never occurred to me that I wouldn't be able to. I don't know why it didn't cross my mind. But now my daddy had told me early on when he got the airplane we started,

01:38:22.000 - 01:38:37.000

he says you'll probably be better than the boys and me both. You see, with that kind of confidence that would tell you. And I know my daddy would always tell me, and mother also, and I got just as much conferring with mother as I did with daddy.

01:38:37.000 - 01:38:51.000

But it seems like, you know, when a man really pays attention to you, you are just more secure or something. And anyway -- What kind of student was your boyfriend?

01:38:51.000 - 01:39:00.000

What kind of student was your boyfriend? Great. Great. Very good, very good.

01:39:00.000 - 01:39:15.000

That's why you get intimidated when some of these are smarter than you are. But anyway, I forgot exactly what -- What qualities did you have that made you succeed? The thing that I could do that.

01:39:15.000 - 01:39:33.000

Well, like what my father had always told me, and other things that my father had always said, that he says, "You can do anything you want to do. Now just decide what it is you want to do,

01:39:33.000 - 01:39:44.000

and I will see to it that you get to do that." But he said, "I am going to help you with your wants. Now don't get your wants out of line. That's unreasonable.

01:39:44.000 - 01:40:02.000

Keep your wants in a reasonable area, and then we can handle it, and I'll help you, and we'll see to it you get your wants." And so this, when this came along, I thought, "I'll just do that." And my father didn't object, mother didn't,

01:40:02.000 - 01:40:21.000

and strangely enough the populace of the people that I was around did not think that was that strange. And what -- I look back, and I can't believe that after I got my private pilot license, everybody in town wanted to fly with me.

01:40:21.000 - 01:40:33.000

Everybody coming, "Oh, would you take me up? Oh, would you do this?" Blah, blah, blah. Well, I took up so many people that pretty soon I started, since I had my own airplane and my poor daddy paying the bills on it,

01:40:33.000 - 01:40:50.000

I just took up everybody. See, and I was getting time too, so I was doing all right. And so anyway, finally I had so many that I decided I'd have them sign little cards to sign, "You flew with me, so keep a list."

01:40:50.000 - 01:41:02.000

Well, I've still got a list of a whole -- I've got a list of 50. That's not even half of what I took up. Now, as I look back, why did these dodos who went with me think I was good enough to take care of their lives?

01:41:02.000 - 01:41:13.000

That's what I don't know. I don't know why they did it. I could see how stupid me would go up with me, but I don't know why all these people would ask to go up with me.

01:41:13.000 - 01:41:36.000

They were just that ignorant, I guess. Do you recall how many hours you had before you started instructing? Well, I had to have a minimum of 250, I think, but I had more than that when I started. Let me ask you, how did World War II affect your family?

01:41:36.000 - 01:41:52.000

Oh, well, it did. When we started flying, we had four of us, two brothers and my father and I, flying the airplane. And you know newspaper writers always want something to write about,

01:41:52.000 - 01:42:11.000

and so they interviewed my father one time, and the article comes out in the paper, and they questioned to my father, "What ever possessed you to buy an airplane and having your kids fly in it?" And he said, "Well," he said, "I could have justified it by my business."

01:42:11.000 - 01:42:25.000

Now by that time in Odessa, we had moved there, and he had five jewelry stores scattered around in town surrounding Odessa. He said, "I could have justified it by my business going to these towns, but that's not really why I bought it."

01:42:25.000 - 01:42:42.000

And we looked, and we said, "Why did he buy it?" He said, "I think"--this is in 1940 now, early part-- "I think that America is going to get in the war, and I want my children to be able to contribute to the war effort."

01:42:42.000 - 01:42:55.000

And his children's hair stood straight up. We said, "What are you saying?" And we asked, "Daddy, what in the world are you saying?" Now he was always one that any time he predicted anything, it came true.

01:42:55.000 - 01:43:07.000

Very astute, very far in his projections. And that's what scared us because he was always right. We said, "Daddy, you can't be right." "Please tell us what you think is going to go on."

01:43:07.000 - 01:43:16.000

Well, he was watching Hitler. And I was in school. I wasn't watching Hitler. I wasn't paying attention. And when I went to--all through my school,

01:43:16.000 - 01:43:27.000

I was a child between World War I and World War II through my education through high school and through college, that two years of college. All of that was in between two wars.

01:43:27.000 - 01:43:42.000

Now, never was I taught in school that the likelihood of another war would ever come up because we'd settled the world with the first world war. And so, peacefully going along, nothing's going to happen. Never occurred to me that I would ever be a part of anything like that,

01:43:42.000 - 01:44:03.000

nor my brothers would be. And sure enough, after--before Pearl Harbor, about the first part of 1941, before Pearl Harbor, America started drafting men. First rattle out of the box, my older brother got drafted.

01:44:03.000 - 01:44:30.000

And he was in the medical corps and came home on leave. And he and my older--my older brother and my father were killed in our family airplane. And Chris and I, dating at the time, were there at the scene of the crash when it happened. And I was with my father when he died.

01:44:30.000 - 01:44:54.000

About an hour or so later, my brother was already killed and was killed in his uniform. Now, this was on the 4th of July in 1941, before Pearl Harbor in December. So my father never saw Pearl Harbor, but I'm sure that he wasn't thinking about Pearl Harbor. He was thinking about Hitler, which would be what he was watching,

01:44:54.000 - 01:45:09.000

why he thought we were going to get in the war. What were they doing in that airplane that day? They were on a trip going to New Mexico to Rios de Osa and Cloudcroft, which is like 10,000 feet in the air.

01:45:09.000 - 01:45:23.000

And there is no airport there. And they had said--this was the 4th of July celebration. And Chris and I were going to drive by a car and meet them. And they were going to land at the golf course if they liked the golf course.

01:45:23.000 - 01:45:40.000

In those days, we landed a lot of different places. But if they didn't like it, they were going to fly back out to Roswell and come in by car, and we were going to meet them there. So when we came close to the time we were to meet them, and there was no airplane around,

01:45:40.000 - 01:45:59.000

people said, "Yeah, a plane came around but didn't land," and said, "It took off down this way, down the canyon." So they took off down the way, and at 10,000 feet with a small airplane, small engine-- you know, we lose performance with every bit of altitude that we have.

01:45:59.000 - 01:46:22.000

We theoretically knew that but didn't really know that to that extent. And so they took off down the canyon to get the altitude, and sure enough, the canyon closed in on them before they got over the top. Well, then there was a Fourth of July celebration there, lots of cars.

01:46:22.000 - 01:46:40.000

And so they flew around in this closed-in area to make a pass to land on the road. Four times they did that, cars said. Those that were coming to them could see them. Those that were going behind them didn't know they were trying to land, and they wouldn't allow it.

01:46:40.000 - 01:46:53.000

In other words, they couldn't land with the traffic because too much traffic. But they'd come in, make a pass, just almost land, and then decided they couldn't do it. So they'd come back around. Well, about the fourth time they came around, the prop hit the top of a pine tree

01:46:53.000 - 01:47:13.000

and shattered the prop, and then the plane just tumbled on down right to the bar ditch where the highway comes right around. And when we turned the corner around this big cliff area, here was the crash right in front of us. And they had already taken them down to a hospital about ten miles down the road by the time we got there.

01:47:13.000 - 01:47:38.000

But they were right behind the fence where the public was kept away from it, and they had already taken them down to the hospital. And anyway, my brother was already there, but my father, they had there with the hospital doctor. And he was--you could hear him breathing all the way down the hall.

01:47:38.000 - 01:47:50.000

He's just, "Ew," you know, just trying to get his breath as best he could and noise coming up while he's trying to get his breath. He was hanging on. Now, knowing my daddy and his past and everything, that when he was determined to do something,

01:47:50.000 - 01:48:03.000

he doggone sure was going to do something. Now, I know he was determined he was going to lift. We got there because we were supposed to be there. And he was just struggling like crazy and seemingly unconscious.

01:48:03.000 - 01:48:20.000

Well, my father's doctor was on vacation there also, and I don't know how he got to the airport. Have he heard? I never did find out. But he was in the hospital room with my father, standing behind the doctor who belonged at the hospital.

01:48:20.000 - 01:48:31.000

And he was just a visiting doctor. Well, that gave me some confidence when I saw him. I don't know how he got there. Or he was planning on meeting my father, I know, because we were all going to be together.

01:48:31.000 - 01:48:51.000

In any event, my father had a great big hole in his head, looked like a stick or rock or something had gone through his head, crushed all here, and his legs and everything were crushed. And when you see someone like that struggling, you think--I was thinking, "Don't you dare die." "Oh, but you can't live like this."

01:48:51.000 - 01:49:01.000

"But don't you dare die now." "Uh-oh, but you don't want to live like this." And, you know, you get just crazy. And so I went up to him, and he was making all this noise trying to breathe.

01:49:01.000 - 01:49:18.000

And I put my hand on him, told him who I was and everything, and talked to him a bit. And he started calming down a little bit. And so as I was talking to him, the doctor, whom I did not know, told me, "He's unconscious. He don't know what you're saying."

01:49:18.000 - 01:49:31.000

And the friend doctor who knew it behind him was motioning to me, "Yes, he does. Yes, he does." And so I said, "Okay." And so I just stood there and talked to him and patted him and loved him a bit.

01:49:31.000 - 01:49:57.000

And he just kept calming down, calming down, and calming down until he died. Now, there wasn't--I don't think there was any doubt, but he was just bent on staying until we got there. And so then, here we lost--and besides that, I know the woman now who just a couple of years ago gave me a picture of this crash. And she and her husband were ones that picked up the bodies and took them to the hospital.

01:49:57.000 - 01:50:13.000

And she's got a story to tell, and she told me. And she had told my mother prior to this, I'm sure, because she showed me some jewelry my mother had given her. And I said, "Gosh, I recognize. That's just like some of my mother had, real expensive costume jewelry, and that type."

01:50:13.000 - 01:50:41.000

But my mother--she must have told my mother prior to this time. And anyway, she had this jewelry that mother had given her, but she had the picture that she gave me and told me the story. So it's interesting how the years go by. But then here, my younger brother then volunteered for the military, and he taught flying, basic and advanced,

01:50:41.000 - 01:50:58.000

or both--all of those, I think, for the flying schools for the Air Force. He was a civilian Air Force instructor. That's what he was. And he came home unscathed, dead now from a heart attack.

01:50:58.000 - 01:51:12.000

>> This older brother that was with your dad, was he home on leave? >> Home on leave, killed in his uniform. And mother had just gone to visit him and had been home about a week, and she had spent about a week or more with him. And I'm so glad she got to be with him.

01:51:12.000 - 01:51:31.000

And she knew all of his buddies, and those buddies have written to her till this day, till she died. Those buddies have kept up with her, which I thought was really nice. Of course, my mother is a delightful personality and a good-looking woman and everything, and so I'm sure they felt a rapport to her at that time.

01:51:31.000 - 01:51:46.000

And then when my brother was killed--and they were all in the Medical Corps, and I think they kind of have a soft heart in the Medical Corps or something. But they've kept up with my mother all this time, and she kept up with them. >> And, Florine, after that happened, did you have second thoughts about going on flying?

01:51:46.000 - 01:51:59.000

>> Yeah, I had second, third, and fourth thoughts. Yeah, I really did. Now I'll tell you what was the basic foundation that helped, was the fact that the six of us-- my sister was too young to fly, four kids--

01:51:59.000 - 01:52:17.000

the six of us had sat down at the dinner table many times and had talked about, "Now what are we going to think about this if one of us gets killed?" Because in those days it wasn't nearly as safe as it is now. And so we decided after long talking that we thought that we knew enough about Scripture

01:52:17.000 - 01:52:37.000

to know that God deals with each of us individually and not corporately. So what would happen to one of us would not necessarily increase the chances of that same thing happening to another member of the family. And so when this happened, my brother and I got together and looked at each other,

01:52:37.000 - 01:52:57.000

and we said, "Do we really believe that or don't we? We've got to put up or shut up now. What are we going to do?" So we decided maybe we do believe that, that just because they got killed that way that God would not necessarily edict that we were killed that way, certainly,

01:52:57.000 - 01:53:10.000

or that we'd bring it upon ourselves, necessarily. So we went right back to flying, and so within a week or so we were back in the air, scared out of our wits, but doing it anyway. What did your mom think about you two?

01:53:10.000 - 01:53:36.000

Bless her little heart. I tell you, she is a stoic person. Do you know that she took that in herself in such a beautiful manner that through all the many years after, it was never, "Feel sorry for me, kids." Never. She just went right on as if she--well, it just nearly wiped her out.

01:53:36.000 - 01:53:56.000

They had a very good marriage, a very good marriage. I never heard cross words a time with my parents, except one night I remember getting up when I was out of high school even, I think, getting up--she'd go to the bathroom, I guess--and heard them talking, low talking,

01:53:56.000 - 01:54:10.000

but I heard Mother's voice in a crying mood, I guess you'd say. Her voice was--that nearly tore me up. First time I'd ever seen that in my family. They had never yelled at each other. They had never said ugly words. Nothing.

01:54:10.000 - 01:54:35.000

That was the first time I'd ever heard her even have crying talking to him, and I was already grown, and I remember that to this day. So Mother then really took it on the chin, and then right after that--this was in the middle of '41, and so about a year later was when my brother and I left.

01:54:35.000 - 01:55:03.000

And when we left, Mother and my sister went to Dallas and enrolled in SMU. And then, ironically enough, I--of course, Mother's family now, everybody's gone. She's got one little chicken out of all this mess, and making the best of it. And then when I got transferred to Love Field at Dallas, Mother came out to Love Field

01:55:03.000 - 01:55:23.000

and learned how to teach link training on the ground, the assimilator. And when I had link training need, when I had my instrument rating in the air at Dallas, I had to have so much link training. Well, she was my teacher, and so I told her--she'd been in my classes before--I said,

01:55:23.000 - 01:55:36.000

"Now, look here. Don't you dare flunk me." I didn't flunk you. Don't you flunk me. So I tell you, I bet I had better link training than anybody had because she tried every hard problem she could possibly put on me.

01:55:36.000 - 01:55:54.000

She was determined to crash and burn me, and I was determined she wasn't going to do it. And so, I mean, we fought each other in that link training like you wouldn't believe. I never heard of some--the hard problems she'd dream up. And she said, "Boy, I dreamed up a good one today. I was proud of myself."

01:55:54.000 - 01:56:06.000

But she never had a desire to fly? No, not to go ahead--and after that, see, and after the crash, she didn't have an airplane, and it wasn't convenient, and everything. And my sister never did. She never did fly.

01:56:06.000 - 01:56:19.000

Let me ask you this. Losing a son and losing a husband, what do you think got her through that? Why do I think about what? What do you think got her through that grief?

01:56:19.000 - 01:56:35.000

What God had--I'm not getting you going--what God had in mind? No, how do you think that she got through that? Oh, how did she get through that whole thing? I think her dependence upon the Lord, and her friends, and those of us who supported her.

01:56:35.000 - 01:56:50.000

Now, that's the only way she could have gotten through it. I don't know why she didn't--as I look back on it, I don't know why she didn't go berserk all those years, even, and feel sorry for me and everything. But, boy, she held up through all her--and do you know that she never did marry again?

01:56:50.000 - 01:57:03.000

She had opportunities. But somehow, I guess if you have a real happy marriage, you're just a little shaky about having another happy one. And then after she got older, up into the '70s,

01:57:03.000 - 01:57:17.000

she said that she didn't think she wanted to get married. She said, "I'll be marrying a hospital case, probably." In other words, "I will be the caretaker for somebody." And sure enough, one of the rich guys who really wanted to marry her,

01:57:17.000 - 01:57:35.000

ended up--she would have been a caretaker for him--a few years after she could have married him. He ended up like that. And so she said--and she always made the best of her life, and interested in everything and interested in people, and more of an extrovert.

01:57:35.000 - 01:57:46.000

Everybody loved her. She had all kinds of friends. And that's the only thing that brought her through that. But she so beautifully went through that,

01:57:46.000 - 01:58:04.000

not ever letting us kids have the "feel sorry for me" attitude. We never got that from her at all. She covered it up, and where her heart would be breaking, she'd cover it up, to where we would not necessarily think, "Oh, poor mother."

01:58:04.000 - 01:58:21.000

But we thought that, but not in the way that she could have put on a sad tale. But she just accepted that. And that has been so good for us kids, because you could have just another big heartbreak, losing your father,

01:58:21.000 - 01:58:38.000

and then your mother going off her rocker and being a whole different kind of person, and then you'd have lost her too. But she was always vibrant and everything all the time. How soon after that accident did you get back in an airplane?

01:58:38.000 - 01:58:55.000

Oh, about six days maybe. I thought, "I better do this fast, do it fast." And bless his heart, there was a man who--a private pilot--he wasn't a pilot then-- a private oil man who bought a Luscombe just about that time.

01:58:55.000 - 01:59:07.000

And he came to me and says, "You may fly this airplane of mine," because it was my Luscombe. He knew I was used to flying it, and he didn't have his pilot's license, and I did. And that's the plane I flew the next time.

01:59:07.000 - 01:59:26.000

And, of course, scared out of your wits, you know, you think something can happen. I don't know what you think, but it was a little more eerie that time. You got used to it again. And then you stayed at home how long before you--and then where did you go?

01:59:26.000 - 01:59:47.000

All right, I taught these classes and dated my husband. Then he went off to do his thing, and I went off to do my thing. And three years later, after three or three and a half years later's time, we married. Okay, but during that meantime, when you went off to do your thing, where did you go?

01:59:47.000 - 02:00:01.000

That's right. In the meantime, then, I went--the only place that I went--wait just a minute, forget-- I went to Lubbock to teach flying also. Yes, they asked me to come up there, and I thought, "Okay."

02:00:01.000 - 02:00:15.000

So I went up there, but I didn't teach there very many months until the Nancy Love thing started, and they started looking for us. Tell me the first time you heard about that. All right, I'll tell you.

02:00:15.000 - 02:00:37.000

I heard it in a little different way than some of them heard. My brother and I were on vacation with Don Teal, the owner of the airport's wife and daughter. We were in Florida, down at West Palm Beach, Florida, and on vacation and swimming in the surf when we shouldn't have been

02:00:37.000 - 02:01:01.000

and the barracudas around things we shouldn't have been, the people told us. And anyway, Don comes back from a flight overseas, and he had started flying with the Royal Canadian Air Force before--for our military, where they got into it, and he had come through D.C. and had heard about it.

02:01:01.000 - 02:01:24.000

So he flies home and tells me, and so this is how I found out about it. Then I make a call and get hold of Nancy Love. Now in the meantime, they had sent a telegram to my home that I never did get, but I learned here, and then I called, and then I got a train from vacation time in Florida

02:01:24.000 - 02:01:42.000

and went straight to Delaware. What had you heard that they were going to do? I heard that they were looking for experienced women pilots to see if they could be flying for the military and that we were to ferry airplanes.

02:01:42.000 - 02:02:01.000

Now what that meant to me at that time, I'm not sure what I thought ferrying airplanes meant to the extent of it, but I knew we were supposed to fly these airplanes around somewhere. But the main thing--and I knew in the States, I knew it wasn't an overseas thing, at least I didn't think so at the time--

02:02:01.000 - 02:02:23.000

and so I knew that I had to go there and pass flight tests, and I knew that the possibility of not being accepted existed, that it was a volunteer thing to go and take a test to see if you could get in. What was your mother's reaction to your doing this?

02:02:23.000 - 02:02:36.000

Bless her heart. I guess she thought if I'm going to fly airplanes, I might as well be flying for them, I guess. Her reaction, just, "Well, that's just the way it is. If that's what you like, okay." So that when you--

02:02:36.000 - 02:02:42.000

Okay. Oh, okay. I've changed tapes. Time flies. All right.

02:02:42.000 - 02:03:06.000

Yet from West Palm Beach, where did you go for your interview or whatever you did? Okay. I got on the train and went up to Wilmington, and someone met me there. Thank goodness. I had already called in ahead, and they knew I was coming. And then took me out to the air base, and then I had an interview with Nancy.

02:03:06.000 - 02:03:26.000

It seemed like somebody else was there, maybe a helper of hers, and you had your qualifications, went over that to see if you fit in the category, because we were supposed to have 500 hours of flying time, and we averaged 1,100 hours when all of us got together.

02:03:26.000 - 02:03:39.000

So we were well-equipped for the 500 that they wanted. What month was this? This was in October of '42. October '42, probably maybe the middle of the month,

02:03:39.000 - 02:03:53.000

and I think I was about number 12 or 13, about in there. And then it kind of slowed down. They got the first ones pretty rapidly, and then there were some they got after they'd already transferred me that I never saw in the group.

02:03:53.000 - 02:04:07.000

So they were trailing on to get the rest of them. When you met Nancy Love, what was your opinion of her? What were your first reactions? My first reaction to her is that I thought she knew what she was doing,

02:04:07.000 - 02:04:25.000

and I didn't mind being associated with her. I thought she had things under control, and here she wasn't that old, but the fact maybe that she had gray hair might have made a difference in her maturity level that we saw that she knew what she was doing.

02:04:25.000 - 02:04:52.000

She had a quiet way of speaking, of just kind of being on top of it, you know. She was very kind and sweet, but you also knew that there were regulations, and you didn't break them. But there was no slashing around verbally or anything, very quiet control, I would say, dignified, quiet control is what she always had and always came through with,

02:04:52.000 - 02:05:03.000

and we respected her. We all loved her. I don't think any of us had any negative sayings about her at all because I don't know that she ever so-called pulled a stump that we could point our finger at,

02:05:03.000 - 02:05:19.000

and I think that she treated us all fairly, or at least I always thought that she had, and others around. I haven't really heard any adverse tales about her mistreatment of anyone or her denial of anyone doing this or that.

02:05:19.000 - 02:05:28.000

Right. After the interview, what did she tell you to expect? What were her goals for this group? Her goals?

02:05:28.000 - 02:05:50.000

That we were to do the very best that we could and to show the military that we could do what we were going to be allowed to do, which would be, at that time, they thought, small airplanes to take them where they needed to be, and maybe they thought maybe not too far around, maybe not clear across the country,

02:05:50.000 - 02:06:02.000

even at that time, but still, when you ferry things, you mean that that goes everywhere eventually. Right. When you arrived, were there already some girls flying? Yes.

02:06:02.000 - 02:06:10.000

Did you meet some of those girls? Uh-huh. Was it a surprise to you that females were doing this? Oh, yeah.

02:06:10.000 - 02:06:24.000

Yeah, I saw these girls. My first question was, "You're crazy, too, and where did you come from?" "Oh, I came from New York, New Jersey, you know, down here, wherever." Yes, it was a shock.

02:06:24.000 - 02:06:38.000

I saw girls that were doing what I was doing. But ironically enough, each of us had our own little world that we learned in, and a man's world. My man, all a man's world.

02:06:38.000 - 02:06:59.000

That's all I had known by flying, was how to be with the men. Well, when I got to the military, they were just more of the same thing. It didn't bother me. I mean, the situation was not that different to me, or at least I didn't feel estranged from it at all.

02:06:59.000 - 02:07:08.000

And what was different were the girls. The men weren't different. There were just more of them. But I was used to getting around with the men, doing a thing with the men.

02:07:08.000 - 02:07:21.000

What was your boyfriend's reaction to your taking on this new role? Well, you mean the Baylor boyfriend? No. The one I married.

02:07:21.000 - 02:07:44.000

Well, he was so naive, he never saw me in any other situation but that. See, he walked into my world. So I was already independent, teaching classes, teaching flying before I ever saw him. And so I told him, "What you see is what you get," because that's all he ever saw.

02:07:44.000 - 02:08:08.000

And I know that it was different. He was from Kentucky, and so he came out to West Texas and all, working for Phillips and all. And my family, when I brought him home to my family, they were all noticed immediately his impeccable posture and manners. He had the old Southern manners.

02:08:08.000 - 02:08:34.000

He was just--you know, when you'd see somebody, he'd just almost like bow, you know, when he's introduced or when he would talk to you with a great deal of courtesy and just, as I say, impeccable manners and speech and everything. And so he was a little bit different than some of the ready-raunch and ready-cowboys or whatever else, you know, that you'd find around there. And as I said, he already had his six years of college.

02:08:34.000 - 02:08:56.000

He was already employed as an engineer and stuff, and so he had a little bit of a background there. But I know that my family was impressed with him, and he has been that way ever since. He's just, you know, schooled in that type of thing. But now, see, he didn't think anything about what I was doing because I was doing it when he saw me.

02:08:56.000 - 02:09:09.000

And ever since, I think that's one reason he's let me do anything. He knew what he was getting. >> I wonder if you were not tempted just to go ahead and get married. >> Right then?

02:09:09.000 - 02:09:42.000

No, no, because I think both of us were not really that ready. And he had already been approached for another thing that I can tell you that he did do, that he was qualified to do and needed to do for the war effort. And so I think he had that in mind, and, you know, then all this came up too about the war was eating us, see. And so rather than getting married right then and go ahead and doing your thing, I didn't think it was right.

02:09:42.000 - 02:10:08.000

And also, he wanted to give me an engagement ring. We thought about it, and then we both decided no, that I would not -- I would be in the military, and I'd be around men all the time. And it would be kind of an insult to the engagement ring if I would be going out with them or whatever. It would not change how you felt at all and what you knew you had in the background if you wanted to.

02:10:08.000 - 02:10:31.000

But this -- and he said too, this would give me freedom, he said, to look over everybody else. And if you still want me, then okay, that's great. But if you find something better, then I guess what he's thinking, I don't need you. You know, but he said give me -- he was giving me the open chance to not be tagged, that I could go and be with others, which I did.

02:10:31.000 - 02:10:38.000

I did all the time. I was dating all the time. But I always had him in the background. >> Right.

02:10:38.000 - 02:10:51.000

When you were at Wilmington, where did you live? >> We lived in the barracks. They had already run out some men and had given us this barracks. And the thing that we remember most about the barracks is all the urinals in the bathrooms.

02:10:51.000 - 02:11:02.000

We hated those things. You couldn't go in there and all these -- we said we were going to get curtains and we were going to cover those things up. Well, we got so busy we never did it. We never did do it.

02:11:02.000 - 02:11:14.000

And as far as I remember, most of the shower stalls were open. I don't even know that we had curtains on them. I know one stall did not. But you didn't have too much modesty while you were there.

02:11:14.000 - 02:11:30.000

And then the rooms were not sheetrocked on the inside and all. They just had a plyboard or whatever it was on the outside of those barracks. But all the two-by-fours were still in the rooms, you know. And I know I had my cosmetics and stuff on two-by-fours.

02:11:30.000 - 02:11:54.000

And, of course, it was cold. And the bed was springs that -- they were not thick springs like this. They were wire that was hooked together like this, see? And a metal headboard and just a flat wire base and about a four-inch mattress on there.

02:11:54.000 - 02:12:07.000

But they had in the room a closet box that you could open and put stuff in. And I don't recall that they had a desk or anything there. I guess they did. I don't know.

02:12:07.000 - 02:12:17.000

Did you have a roommate? No, I didn't. I don't know if anybody had a roommate, come to think of it. I think they were all separate rooms.

02:12:17.000 - 02:12:28.000

And real small, just little small things, big enough for a bed. And here's your little closet here. And two-by-fours all the way around. And so we had two-by-fours, you know, all of our stuff on the two-by-fours.

02:12:28.000 - 02:12:42.000

And so I don't think we had anything like a dresser or something there. It could have been a little neater and put it here. And then we had a bathroom that everybody used, one bathroom. So we'd carry up our stuff.

02:12:42.000 - 02:13:06.000

I guess in the little closet thing we had a place for towels in there, I guess. But we would march down the hall and go to this one bathroom. And I remember that Look Magazine came and did a story on February '42, Look Magazine. And they've got a picture of me in the bathroom with my robe on,

02:13:06.000 - 02:13:24.000

washing out something in the sink. You know, you'd wash your clothes out in the sink. And then around the outside, the barracks was sitting on just plain dirt, no grass or anything. And then when it would rain, the mud was ankle thick.

02:13:24.000 - 02:13:38.000

And so we had to get some planks and everything so we could get in and out of that place so that we could walk on the mud that wasn't so deep. Then where did you eat? We ate at the mess hall, the officers' mess hall.

02:13:38.000 - 02:13:54.000

Maybe it was the officers' club, but anywhere where the officers ate. And we were always on officer status, and so that was nice. And they always--all of the linemen and everything treated us as officers. What were your uniforms?

02:13:54.000 - 02:14:09.000

Uniform? I have some pictures with the uniform on it. It was kind of a gray, greenish gray, gray that had a little green cast to it, a fabric that was just great fabric because it held the pleats just fine. The jackets always looked nice.

02:14:09.000 - 02:14:32.000

And we had overcoat that had a lining that could be taken out to put in for warmth, but our long overcoat and our little hat, like a normal little-- you know, the little skinny hats--I don't know what you call those-- not like our WASP hats.

02:14:32.000 - 02:14:39.000

Overseas caps? Huh? Overseas caps. I guess, I guess is what you'd call them, but that kind of a cap.

02:14:39.000 - 02:14:51.000

And we didn't end up wearing the cap very much, actually. But our uniforms were wonderful in that they were-- you could just absolutely wad them up, sleep in them or whatever, and they looked good. And you flew in those?

02:14:51.000 - 02:15:08.000

I flew in them, yes, very much so. And they were extremely practical. And when time came for the WASP, when they started coming out of the schools to us, then we thought about, well, let's get them some uniforms.

02:15:08.000 - 02:15:21.000

Well, we go back to the source, and the guy says, "I used a remnant. We don't have any more of that fabric." Nobody got any more of it. But it would have been a real good fabric to have used,

02:15:21.000 - 02:15:35.000

better fabric than what we did use, but we got plenty good out of what we did have, so we weren't hurting any. Right. After your interview, what was the next thing that you were assigned to do?

02:15:35.000 - 02:15:42.000

To whom did you report? After my what now? After your interview. Oh, after the interview.

02:15:42.000 - 02:15:54.000

You were accepted. Well, I think I went to the dormitory and got myself ready and everything and told to get up a certain time in the morning early and go over and eat. And then we would go to ground school.

02:15:54.000 - 02:16:06.000

We had ground school classes, and then we had flight things. So we were in a testing period, and we were hired through civil service for three months only. And if they didn't like it, they wouldn't send us home.

02:16:06.000 - 02:16:25.000

And so this was the temporary thing that we knew that we were in. And then they had us to take flight tests and time in the air at an alternate field. It wasn't an airport, an alternate field. So here we have this big airport, all the biggest coming in and everything.

02:16:25.000 - 02:16:48.000

But they take the girls way off in the boonies a few miles from the airport and had us to do our flying on a grass field with no runway that was like a postage stamp, looked just like a postage stamp to me, in the air, big trees, four sides, just like that. And here this green grassy field in the middle and little, little.

02:16:48.000 - 02:17:07.000

And we were flying the PT-19, the low-wing open cockpit Fairchild. None of us had ever flown one of those before. But now part of our requirement to get in, we would have had to have flown a Stearman or a Waco or something that had 250 horsepower.

02:17:07.000 - 02:17:25.000

And so I had flown the Waco and had flown it aerobatically. And so I had my aerobatic training before I got there, thank goodness. I saved my life on that one time too. So anyway, we had not flown this one, but it was okay, low-wing open cockpit, and we liked it.

02:17:25.000 - 02:17:38.000

But when you came into this field, it was so short that you could barely land and stop here at the end before you hit the trees. And then you'd have to turn around and taxi off to the side while somebody else would try the same thing.

02:17:38.000 - 02:17:56.000

Well, we always knew there was going to be some kind of an accident, somebody was going to run into the trees or do something. And sure enough, no one did. All of us were--as I look back on it, had we not been as well experienced as we were and well trained,

02:17:56.000 - 02:18:12.000

we would have messed up for women. I cannot tell you how bad we would have looked because where they put us to fly and the conditions under which we had to do it, we could have made so many mistakes if we hadn't had the time we did.

02:18:12.000 - 02:18:33.000

We would have messed up and they would have kicked us out. Because for one thing, with trees all the way around, you had to come in high enough for the trees, but then you had to lose your altitude to try to stall out, and here was the trees down here. You couldn't get over the top of these trees to land and stop and stall the thing.

02:18:33.000 - 02:18:51.000

And so sure enough, all of us had been flying as civilians and had learned a few tricks, but actually one of them was to slip an airplane. When you crossed the controls on it, threw the nose up like this, threw the wing down, and hit the top rudder and the thing would slide down like this.

02:18:51.000 - 02:19:08.000

So we'd come in right here and here would be all the trees, and we'd come up, we'd kick that thing up, slide down like this, and slide down on the other side of the trees and knock it straighted out and land and stop at the end. Now only one girl turned the plane up on its nose one time and broke a prop.

02:19:08.000 - 02:19:23.000

And some of them had to ground loop. Now we always knew that when worst came to worst, you slammed that brick and you ground looped and hoped that you didn't catch a wing when it went around. You just hoped, and sure enough, nobody--I don't think anyone ever did ruin one.

02:19:23.000 - 02:19:36.000

Were there instructors at that auxiliary field? Yes, and instructors were with us quite a bit of the time. They'd take us up and make us do whatever, see, the instructors with us. But there were a lot of times you were by yourself.

02:19:36.000 - 02:19:43.000

Who were these instructors? Military men. Yeah, military men. I have no idea who they were.

02:19:43.000 - 02:19:59.000

But they did bird dog us enough to see that we could do it. But I am just really pleased that we started off as experienced as we were because we would have made women look terrible. We really would have.

02:19:59.000 - 02:20:14.000

And I could see you just flying off of that field if we hadn't had past experience. If we'd just been out of school 200 hours or something, we'd have messed up till cows came home. And you did this for three months? No.

02:20:14.000 - 02:20:23.000

How long before-- No, no, we didn't stay for three months. Although I think we did some of this in between, but not too long. They were having us flying cubs out of there.

02:20:23.000 - 02:20:33.000

We were taking cubs. Were these new airplanes? Yes. Some girls went to the factory.

02:20:33.000 - 02:20:46.000

It seems to me like I even picked them up there. I don't know if somebody had brought them there perhaps. And then we started on ferry trips pretty fast. And because by the 1st of December--what was this, October, the middle--

02:20:46.000 - 02:21:03.000

1st of December they sent six of us girls to Great Falls, Montana. And they sent about 17 to 20 men at the same time. And we were to go out there. And we were through with our training at this time,

02:21:03.000 - 02:21:29.000

and we'd already done some flying and delivering around in the close area, because I remember I delivered some small stuff in that area before we went to Great Falls. But then we went out there to pick up steermen. And we went--I know exactly when it was because it was around my birthday time.

02:21:29.000 - 02:21:44.000

And a lot of them, when we were on the train--we rode a train out there, and we had to stop in Chicago, and we spent the night on the train. And the trains on those days were so full, all the buses, trains, everything. You're just stacked on top of each other and sitting on your parachutes on the floor

02:21:44.000 - 02:22:05.000

and that kind of thing. And I know that the guys got together and got all kinds of little cute things for me for my birthday, like a ring off of a cigar and some little leaves off of a plant that was on, and what else, some stuff they found on the train.

02:22:05.000 - 02:22:25.000

And then they wrote little nice notes and had cutest little stuff you ever did see that they had for my birthday presents. Well, we go out to Great Falls, and when we got there, the weather had just gotten so bad that we were weathered in for about a week, I think.

02:22:25.000 - 02:22:42.000

And they told us that when the weather warmed up to 10 below zero, then they could warm the engines enough that they could start them, and then we could fly off as long as they could start them, we could go. And here, the open cockpit and all.

02:22:42.000 - 02:23:08.000

So in the meantime, we get some chamois skin face guards and cut little holes in them and cut a little mouth in it so we could protect our faces from freezing. And we had all of this winter equipment, all from the boots with the fur on the inside and our pants, jackets, hats, gloves, and chamois skin on our face.

02:23:08.000 - 02:23:25.000

And so the time comes that they say the temperature is enough that we could go. So they get out there with some barrels. I don't know what kind of a motor or whatever it is they had in the barrels, but then they had big canvas hoses that went up to the radial engine to go up like this

02:23:25.000 - 02:23:43.000

and go putt, putt, putt, putt here in the barrel and come up, and the heat would go in there. And it warmed our engines. So there were six of us, six girls. And I don't know how in the past that I got a reputation for being a good navigator.

02:23:43.000 - 02:23:56.000

And that carried through the whole time I flew. Wherever I was in the nation, that word would get around. Even the guys that did not know would know I was supposed to be a navigator, and they'd be doggone, they were going to follow me.

02:23:56.000 - 02:24:13.000

Well, I always said the only reason I was a half-decent navigator, and that was a big deal in those days too, no radar or anything, to get where you were going. So it was a big deal to find where you were going. And I always said, "I don't care if you follow me,

02:24:13.000 - 02:24:31.000

but the only reason I'm a decent navigator is I'm a big chicken and I pay attention. I'm too scared not to." But I said, "I don't care if you follow me, but don't be a dodo and sit on your mat. When I get in trouble, I'm going to need your help."

02:24:31.000 - 02:24:44.000

I remember one time one guy who knew me said, "Oh, don't pay any attention to her." We were in '51, I think. He says, "Don't pay any attention to her. You just watch her. When she gets out her comb and her lipstick, we're getting close."

02:24:44.000 - 02:25:05.000

And I said, "That is the truth," because I said, "Okay, guys, back off, back off." And I'd just be wallowing all over the sky while I'm doing my thing, getting my grooming up where I wanted it. But anyway, we go here where we are in Great Falls, and for some reason I have to be the navigator.

02:25:05.000 - 02:25:24.000

And snow was everywhere, hundreds of miles around, white with snow. And in that part of the country, there was no roads, railroads, or towns, very many of them, because there were some roads and railroads, but no towns or anything to see for checkpoints. And everything snowed under and white.

02:25:24.000 - 02:25:41.000

You couldn't see it anyway. And so we all take off, this open cockpit, you know, wind whistling through there, and no radio. We have a compass and a map and a wristwatch. That's it.

02:25:41.000 - 02:25:59.000

Big, fat gloves and a map. And so we all take off. I'm leading, and I guess we -- everything, I could just still see that terrain. It's white as far as you can see it, and then just kind of the land rising

02:25:59.000 - 02:26:14.000

and mountains coming up in certain places and everything, and no towns or anything. And we were out about an hour, I suppose, out. And what do you think would happen that I really didn't want to happen? My map blew out of the cockpit.

02:26:14.000 - 02:26:25.000

Here I am, the dodo navigator, and the map, whoosh, out. Well, all of a sudden I panic, you know. And I thought, "Oh, cool it. You've got five girls out there.

02:26:25.000 - 02:26:34.000

What are you panicking for? You're not lost or anything. They'll take care of you." So I move in really, really close, you see, because we don't have a radio.

02:26:34.000 - 02:26:40.000

I can't talk to them. I haven't got a shammy skin over my face. I can't make big faces at them. I can't act ugly.

02:26:40.000 - 02:26:49.000

The only thing I have is a hand to wave. They can see. So I said, "Go on, go on." Well, she wouldn't go on.

02:26:49.000 - 02:26:57.000

Wouldn't go on. I get a little closer, and we'd have to hit each other. "Go on." "No, I'm not going on."

02:26:57.000 - 02:27:09.000

So what happens? All the others lined up. None of them would go on. So here we had six yellow birds up here lined up, and wouldn't go.

02:27:09.000 - 02:27:23.000

And I kept slowing down, slowing down. We were all sitting up here in a stall just like this. None of them would take the lead. And I thought, "Oh, you dodos, if you don't go in front of me, I'll just get behind you."

02:27:23.000 - 02:27:30.000

I was going to be smart. So I turned around to get in behind them. What happens? They all go around like this.

02:27:30.000 - 02:27:44.000

And so here we are, six birds up here, all in this white everything, and flying around like a bunch of idiots. And nobody would get ahead. We laugh about that to this day.

02:27:44.000 - 02:28:02.000

And the girls that tell me, they knew from the very beginning what was wrong with me, but they'd be doggone if they were going to navigate in that mess. And I was doing more navigating by contour lines more than anything else, how the land was raising and all, because there wasn't anything else you could see.

02:28:02.000 - 02:28:16.000

So when they kept going around like this, I thought, "I guess I should panic. I've got to take care of me. You've got maps, and you're all right. I don't have anything to get me anywhere, and you won't help me."

02:28:16.000 - 02:28:24.000

So I thought, "I better find it. I better take care of me. Now what am I going to do for me?" I thought, "Get down, first thing you can think of."

02:28:24.000 - 02:28:43.000

Okay, with all this vast nothing, I had to remember seeing on the map a landing strip that was no doubt used for training. You know, like you'd have a triangle, you would go on a cross-country triangle, no towns out there, so this was the little landing strip that was a town, supposedly.

02:28:43.000 - 02:28:56.000

Or they went out there to practice or whatever. But I had seen that on the map, I thought. And I thought, "I've got to go over there and find that thing if I can land." So I turned about 90 degrees off course to go out to find it.

02:28:56.000 - 02:29:04.000

Kept on it. It must have been 30 miles off maybe. I don't know, something like that. And sure enough, I found that thing.

02:29:04.000 - 02:29:13.000

There it was, hallelujah. And I looked, and they had used it because they had snow banks, a little old narrow thing, but snow banks on both sides. So they'd scraped it.

02:29:13.000 - 02:29:23.000

They had used it. There was a windsock there. So, oh, man, I'm in good shape, I thought. So I came along and looked at the thing, and I thought, "Oh, my gosh, it's got ice on it.

02:29:23.000 - 02:29:28.000

Oh, I don't know that I can handle this. But I've got to handle this. What am I going to do if I don't? I have to.

02:29:28.000 - 02:29:38.000

I've got to figure out how to do that." And a little narrow thing. And so I made approach, came in and landed, kept that thing straight. And you know the stearman can get away from you pretty easily.

02:29:38.000 - 02:29:50.000

And I kept that thing straight right down the runway, didn't hit the sides or anything, got to the end of it, turned around and stopped. Now, we wouldn't dare kill the engine, see, because there was no way to get that engine started again.

02:29:50.000 - 02:30:05.000

See, we didn't have starters or anything. And so, boy, I must be sure that while we're going that my engine didn't conk out. I mean, I kept it running, turned around, pulled around, looked up to get my breath, and what did I see?

02:30:05.000 - 02:30:19.000

Five girls following me right in. [Laughter] All of us landed on that little old icy, narrow strip. As I said, if we girls hadn't been trained before, we would have bummed up.

02:30:19.000 - 02:30:40.000

Do you know every last girl came in perfectly, did not hit a snowbank, did not have to ground loop at the end or anything. We all packed up down at the end of the runway. And finally, a girl next to me, old Teresa, finally she said, "I'll do it."

02:30:40.000 - 02:30:51.000

See, that's all we could do is have a hand thing. She was close enough, and she thought, "I'll do it." I said, "All right." And so we all taxied around and followed her out of there.

02:30:51.000 - 02:30:58.000

None of us killed our engine. We would have been there. There's no way we could have ever started those things. And we took off.

02:30:58.000 - 02:31:15.000

Teresa found where we were supposed to be going, and we landed, and we have laughed about that. But we went on to deliver that way down the line somewhere, some other state down south. And the men, all of those who took off, they had, as I said, 17 or 20 of them, I don't know.

02:31:15.000 - 02:31:27.000

But we were the only flight that delivered without incident, without doing something or getting delayed or lost or tear up something. And we got them there. But that was one of our first flights.

02:31:27.000 - 02:31:40.000

That was the first part of December is when that happened. And on the way down here, we came through Amarillo. We came through Amarillo. I remember that very well.

02:31:40.000 - 02:31:56.000

And ironically enough, we went out to the air base. They just had an officers club. They just had started the air base at that time, and they just had put an officers club up. And here are the six of us girls walking in this officers club and sit down and eat.

02:31:56.000 - 02:32:12.000

And a woman tells me later here, five years ago or something that I met, she said, "Could you have possibly been one of those girls?" She said, "I was there on my wedding night." And she said, "I was so impressed when those girls came in,

02:32:12.000 - 02:32:26.000

and everybody there was eyeballing and looking at the girls." I said, "You better believe I was one of them." And see how that really comes back to you. But that was one of our first ones that we have laughed about ever since.

02:32:26.000 - 02:32:36.000

And the girl said, "I wasn't about to lead that flight out of there. You were getting me doing it." And I said, "I wasn't doing it." And they said we knew what your problem was all along.

02:32:36.000 - 02:32:47.000

Once you delivered that airplane, to whom did you report? Okay, what did we do? All right, we turned in our papers and everything. What's the very next thing we're supposed to do?

02:32:47.000 - 02:32:59.000

Now this would be on every flight thereafter. This was a Ferryman Division rule. You got yourself back to your base as fast as you could if they didn't have something at that airport for you to fly to Kalamazoo.

02:32:59.000 - 02:33:14.000

Now if you were qualified, that's the awful--we went with the six together. That didn't last long at all. Very few times did we have two or three. Even when I went to Dallas, two or three times we had maybe three to four on a trip.

02:33:14.000 - 02:33:30.000

But that quickly stopped, and you were by yourself always. And it was really better that way because you were responsible, and if your airplane messed up somehow or you messed up, it didn't hold the others up. So everybody on his own.

02:33:30.000 - 02:33:51.000

But anyway, what we did, when you get somewhere, and if they don't have anything that you can fly to go anyplace in the nation, it didn't matter where, then you were to get your first transportation back to your base. Now whatever that transportation was, you could be hitching a ride from one of the military planes

02:33:51.000 - 02:34:11.000

if somebody happened to be going that way, or you caught the first airliner out, the first piece of transportation you get. Now we had little pieces of paper that told us that we were first priority on airlines, and so we could bump anybody, all the senators and big guys, we could bump them all,

02:34:11.000 - 02:34:27.000

president, no, but that's how important they thought moving military equipment was. But now everything was on a priority basis. All the passengers all had to have priority basis. Now how they all got priority in that way, I don't know, but they did.

02:34:27.000 - 02:34:46.000

And the last guy that got on or the last low priority, you may have somebody, a bird colonel going to play golf somewhere, he'd be last priority, and he'd be the one to be taken off. Well, when you presented yourself to go on that airliner,

02:34:46.000 - 02:35:03.000

it didn't matter who was on it, somebody got off, and you're the guy that knocked him off. And I got to be real smart on that too, that when I had to knock somebody off, I'd present my case and then go hide behind the door. I didn't want them to see who did it to them.

02:35:03.000 - 02:35:21.000

And I'll tell you what old colonel had a few choice links to say one night in Phoenix about 3 o'clock in the morning when I bumped him. He didn't like that too well, but he didn't know I did it because I made a point to keep out of the way. And then I ran like crazy, jumped in the airplane so he didn't see who did it.

02:35:21.000 - 02:35:35.000

And when you would get on that airplane to go back, you would have to take your parachute with you? Yeah, oh, yeah, we're dragging those things. Good thought you thought about that. Yes, and then, yeah, you'd drag your parachute.

02:35:35.000 - 02:35:51.000

That was your lifeline. And also whatever luggage you had. Now, when you're flying the fighters, you didn't have any luggage. I had a little zippered bag about this tall and about that big, canvas, with a cardboard bottom to it,

02:35:51.000 - 02:36:04.000

and I could cram it between the right-hand side of the seat and the wall. And it was just about that much room. And over here had too much junk, you know, that you used, toggle switches and what have you. So we'd cram it down here.

02:36:04.000 - 02:36:24.000

And you couldn't carry too much in that thing, of course, and that's all you did have except your uniform you had on, and you washed out your shirts and underwear and all that kind of stuff when you got to where you were going. And hopefully got dry by next morning. But on the P-51 particularly, it was a wonderful airplane.

02:36:24.000 - 02:36:53.000

I carried my screwdriver of a certain kind, and I would crawl out on the wing and unlock the ammunition box. And if it didn't have ammunition in it, I could put a pair of high heels in here, or I could put whatever I needed, and crawl out over here. And I'll tell you, after you got to flying, the faster the airplanes you flew, the fewer places you could land,

02:36:53.000 - 02:37:20.000

and they didn't have alternate airports. So you were committed to find that place, you know, because it was a long enough runway you could get out. Well, also, these nice long runways were located in towns and cities, and the cities had like the best hotels. And so the hotels in those days would have downstairs usually dining and dancing with live orchestra.

02:37:20.000 - 02:37:42.000

And you'd come in from the airport with a number of men, and usually like one girl. I seldom ever saw others when I was really running around. And you'd go to the hotel and dine and dance downstairs with the guys. And so since I was still a civilian, I wanted to turn into a girl at night.

02:37:42.000 - 02:38:06.000

And how do I carry my girl things when I couldn't get them in the airplane? So if I could get them in the ammunition boxes, okay. I had a black wool dress, short sleeves, lightweight wool, that had a little pattern of nail heads, all across here and all across here, and then a sprinkle of nail heads, all those silver ones, all over the thing.

02:38:06.000 - 02:38:25.000

And I'm telling you, that dress went everywhere with me. I could roll that thing up and put it in the ammunition box and get to the hotel, hang it up in the bathroom, turn the hot water on, shut the door, steam press that thing, and put it on, and you'd think I just came from the cleaners.

02:38:25.000 - 02:38:38.000

Go downstairs and do my dining and dancing and turn into a girl. And that's the way I liked it. But I got a lot of kidding about it to the guys. You know, when you're parked, they come out to the flat line any time to pick you up

02:38:38.000 - 02:38:59.000

so you don't have to go walk so far into the office and everything. And guys, many times, would be on the transportation Jeep or whatever it was to pick you up. And sometimes I'd be out here in the airplane trying to get out of here, and they'd say, "Good grief, it takes you longer to get away from your airplane than it does for you to fly from A to B.

02:38:59.000 - 02:39:13.000

Hurry up. Come on. We want to go to town." And I'd say, "Quit your griping. Get up here and help me." Well, one guy got up there to help me, and he goes out here on this right-hand wing. I give him my screwdriver. He opens that thing, finds his dress, and pulls it.

02:39:13.000 - 02:39:27.000

"Guys, look what I've got," you know, hanging this dress around. That dress went everywhere because it was such a good dress. I could wad it up and then steam press it. And then I always had my extra shoes and other stuff.

02:39:27.000 - 02:39:51.000

I had some other little stuff in there that could make life a little better as I went along. But you find that you will do a bunch of stuff to keep up what you really want to do. But, yes, we had to go back to the base. When we got back to the base, then the first flight that you got scheduled on, you'd go off wherever, in whatever.

02:39:51.000 - 02:40:15.000

And after you got checked out on everything, then there was a choice of what you would be flying. How long after you arrived, your first flights were in primary trainers mostly to deliver. What was the next largest airplane that you began to fly? The next one I went to Dallas was the BT-13.

02:40:15.000 - 02:40:32.000

Let me ask you how you got transferred to Dallas. Good. How did I get transitioned? Before I got out of the military, I had flown like everything. The Ferry Division was the only branch of service you could have been in.

02:40:32.000 - 02:40:48.000

You could have even seen the variety I saw, let alone ever get to touch them. I never did ask to check out in anything. They always came to me and said, "We have a such and such here, and we'll be glad to give you transition on it if you'd like that."

02:40:48.000 - 02:41:01.000

I said, "Well, you better believe it." So they'd give me transition on it. Now, how they did that, the operations office, there'd be someone there that would be qualified to transition on this kind of an airplane.

02:41:01.000 - 02:41:22.000

The Ferry Division never was very fast just to check you out in anything, at least not for me. Maybe they looked at me and thought I needed more help or what, or they did everybody that way. But I had to do a lot of paperwork studying and questions and answers to paperwork stuff. You had to know all about the fuel system and the emergency system

02:41:22.000 - 02:41:39.000

and what your red line numbers would be, how much is much, and when you're supposed to be in trouble and when this is an emergency, and how much gasoline does it hold, and what are your prop pitches, and all of that, and temperatures and stuff.

02:41:39.000 - 02:42:01.000

In other words, to realize when a crisis existed in that airplane. Then all your emergency procedures, what are you going to do in this airplane if you get in trouble? So they pretty well went through all that mess before they ever let me touch one. Of course, like in all the fighters, they didn't have but one seat in the fighter anyway.

02:42:01.000 - 02:42:17.000

So you never got any instruction in that to fly it. I mean, you never had an instructor with you ever. You had all this preparation and blindfold cockpit checks and stuff, that where's this, it's over here, or where's this, it's over here, and blindfold seat.

02:42:17.000 - 02:42:35.000

You had to know your cockpit well enough that whenever you needed some information, you could just click your eye down and pick it up, rather than where is that instrument seat. By the time you're looking for what you need to look for, you're crashing. So it was very important, I thought, to know your cockpit,

02:42:35.000 - 02:43:03.000

just exactly where you could touch every one of what they called out what you were looking for. That you had to do, and then all your paperwork and tests on that. Then, like on the single-engine fighters, you took off without ever having a ride in it. But now anything that had two people in it, you would get some instruction in that, and you should have.

02:43:03.000 - 02:43:25.000

How long after you arrived at Wilmington were you transferred to Love Field? I was transferred the first of January. First of January. See, and I got there in October. And what was the purpose of transferring you? The transfer is for you gals coming out of the Ferry Division, is to make room for y'all,

02:43:25.000 - 02:43:44.000

and to also get in other parts of the nation to transfer planes from that location throughout its need. God, you were at Wilmington. Were some of you— Sorry. You can ask her. The others followed me pretty fast.

02:43:44.000 - 02:44:01.000

Okay. And when you were sent to Love Field, where was Nancy Hartman's love at that time? Well, she went to Love Field with me, but she didn't stay. I think she spent most of her time in Wilmington, where she started. How many of you were sent to Love?

02:44:01.000 - 02:44:31.000

Five. Four. Well, actually four of us, and then Nancy, when she came in the beginning, would have made the fifth one. Okay. When you got to Love Field, to whom did you report, and where did you live? Well, we reported to the commanding officer, and they had named me as the commanding officer of the group that we had there. Do you know why they selected you?

02:44:31.000 - 02:44:43.000

No. I don't know. Okay. I don't know. Anyway, I got picked out. Good choice.

02:44:43.000 - 02:44:57.000

I don't know about that, but anyway, I got picked out for some reason. And you lived in barracks there also? Yes. We lived in barracks when we were in Dallas. Okay. What was your first assignment at Dallas?

02:44:57.000 - 02:45:20.000

It was in a BT-13, and I forget exactly where we took it, but I remember another flight that— Tell us about it. That was in a BT-13. That was—I'd have to look at my map again, around close to the St. Louis area, because we had to fly across the Mississippi River.

02:45:20.000 - 02:45:48.000

And I know somebody else was leading the flight, and we got lost as a goose. And I knew all along, this is not right. I thought I was keeping up with where I was, and sure enough, I was. We were supposed to go here, and we were going over here. And I was trying to chart our course over here so I could figure out how to get over here when I needed to be.

02:45:48.000 - 02:46:12.000

And sure enough, we made an emergency landing. We landed where we were not destined to land. That never happened to me the whole time except that time. And I was a follower, and as a follower and as an ex-navigator on other things, I was like, "This is not right.

02:46:12.000 - 02:46:36.000

We are not going right." I thought I knew where we were going, and sure enough, we weren't going right. And we landed to the other place and then went on to where we were supposed to go. But the longer that I flew, the more I realized that I didn't like to fly with anybody else. I had flown with some guys.

02:46:36.000 - 02:46:55.000

When you catch a ride, you deliver, and you catch a ride somewhere with somebody, and I'd see them pull down stunts. I thought, "Good gosh, I want to kill me. I don't want you killing me. I want to do it myself." And I really got to where I did not like to fly with anybody else. I just rather kill myself.

02:46:55.000 - 02:47:17.000

And I think even like on navigating, I just assumed, "Do that myself. Be responsible for me." And then, because you kind of know what you're doing or thinking, but you don't know what the other guy is going to do. And this was the only time I was ever so-called lost on a trip when somebody else was leading it, and I was committed to follow. And I didn't want to follow, but I knew.

02:47:17.000 - 02:47:39.000

But I kept charting it. I thought I knew exactly where we were, but it wasn't where we were supposed to be. >>While you were at Dallas, you began to check out on different airplanes. What was the first fighter aircraft that you checked out on? >>I don't know, unless--like when we started there, we started on the BT-13s and flew those a while.

02:47:39.000 - 02:48:05.000

And then we went to the AT-6 was the next one, of course, that we got. And then from there, through the twin-engine UC-78 Bamboo Bomber, and then the AT-9, the Silver One, and the AT-11 and 10 were the other twin engines that we had. >>While you were at Love Field, what were your primary assignments?

02:48:05.000 - 02:48:27.000

Were you taking airplanes from base to base, from factory to base? >>Yeah, good point. Some factories to base. Now, we had--some of the AT-6s and BTs were built right around Dallas. And so we would go over to Hensley Field and pick them up and take them around to, I guess, mostly bases, come to think of it.

02:48:27.000 - 02:48:50.000

And I know that I have flown off at Hensley Field. I have some water there, too. And I remember just taking off over that water in one airplane, and I thought, "Oh, if I can get this airplane on the ground, I'm getting the heck out of here. Boy, I'm not taking this one anywhere." And so there are times that planes have not really been flown or checked out well or anything,

02:48:50.000 - 02:49:08.000

and you--we're just so glad to get back on the ground. I've brought some of them back from different places that, you know, I've been assigned and take off. And I thought, "It will not get me to where I'm going. I'll take it back." And so no one ever complained. I let them have it.

02:49:08.000 - 02:49:27.000

>> While you were doing this, Florian, did you have a feeling of how you were helping the war effort? >> I guess I did, and yet you think about day to day, "Now what am I supposed to do today?" And maybe I wasn't as patriotic as thinking, "Oh, look at me. I'm helping this world," you know. No, I don't think I felt that way.

02:49:27.000 - 02:49:49.000

Mostly I had a job to do, and how was I going to do it without killing myself? And how was I going to do--find out where I'm going? And I think there was more of a day to day planning probably than thinking, "I'm really helping this war effort." And yet when you'd sit down and think about it, you knew that's exactly what you were doing, really what you were doing.

02:49:49.000 - 02:50:22.000

And when we first started, I know on some of the early trips out of Delaware, we were in uniform, and girls were not in uniform those days, and certainly not with wings on their uniforms. And so we would go to these smaller towns around there where we were taking the cubs and laying and spending the night in smaller places with the cubs. I remember going into some of the hotels, and people in the lobby just eyeballing and looking when you'd walk around.

02:50:22.000 - 02:50:46.000

And then some of them would finally get courage enough to ask you, "What are you? You look different," or something. And we'd tell them the truth. Nobody believed us. Nobody believed us. They'd say, "Oh, come on." Nobody believed us. Well, we got to where we would tell people, especially if we were in an elevator, "We're elevator operators."

02:50:46.000 - 02:51:13.000

And they believed that because in those days, they had elevators that had operators sitting in there, and they'd go up and everything. We had our wings on, and we told them one time we were elevator operators, and they believed it, I think. >> While you were at Wilmington, what was Nancy Love doing? >> I don't know whether she was spending her time in the office or flying locally or actually going anywhere, but I don't think she went very far.

02:51:13.000 - 02:51:32.000

She seemed to be around. She was around in those. These were the formative times. Now, after that, after we got sent out, she probably did a lot more flying. But I think to get it on the ground and get us rolling, she was there most of the time, and needed to be.

02:51:32.000 - 02:51:58.000

>> While you were at Love Field, the first class of Jacqueline Cochran's trainees arrived at Love Field. Tell me about that. >> Well, I was thrilled to have them. I was just, oh, hooray, more girls, and the fact that they had been through school and everything, and I enjoyed having them.

02:51:58.000 - 02:52:22.000

And I never did feel bossy toward them, so to speak, nor did I ever feel that I had anything to hold over their head or lord over them. That's not my personality, and I never did feel that. I was just more camaraderie, loved to have them, and let's work together and keep our nose clean on this base. Let's don't pull any dumb stunts.

02:52:22.000 - 02:52:52.000

>> What was your responsibility? >> Well, in a way, it seemed like I didn't have much responsibility, and then again, I guess I did. Here, the odd thing was that the bases and the commanding officers had no idea what to do with us. Here we were, and I guess they knew we were there to fly airplanes and to assign us and so forth,

02:52:52.000 - 02:53:13.000

but did not know since we were girls, what do you do with girls, and girls are different. Well, I was called into the office several times to discuss the issue, what about girls when they have their period? What are we going to do with them? How did they feel?

02:53:13.000 - 02:53:38.000

Did they go berserk at this time? It was thought that girls didn't have that much control, you might say, during that time, and that they were sick or that they were weaklings or that kind of thing, and so the men didn't really know. And so they told me, said, "We would like for you to keep a date line on everybody as to when they're supposed to have their periods."

02:53:38.000 - 02:54:04.000

And I said, "Well, I'll do that if that's what you'd like for me to do." I said, "I don't think it's going to solve your purpose, but we'll surely do that." And I said, "You know, too, girls can lie a lot, and we can't prove it." And I think what they really wanted was not to penalize us as much.

02:54:04.000 - 02:54:21.000

Maybe they wanted to try to take care of us if we had problems during that time. Well, now for me, I'd been flying all those years and everything. It was no problem for me. I knew what my situation was.

02:54:21.000 - 02:54:39.000

I never had cramps or anything. One day is just the same as another. And it didn't make me any more nervous or flighty or less in control or anything, seeing nobody knew at that time if those--because they had heard stories about girls at that period of time,

02:54:39.000 - 02:54:54.000

how unstable they were and everything. So we went ahead and started keeping a time on this. And you know that's not going to work out. Everybody's not on a regular schedule anyway.

02:54:54.000 - 02:55:24.000

And finally, it got down to the point is that my suggestion was let's keep dates on these if we want to, but let's give the girls a choice of do you feel well enough to go on a trip if we schedule or if you don't feel well enough, we'll excuse you. But if you're ready, raring to go and madder than a hornet because you have to be grounded, then let's go.

02:55:24.000 - 02:55:40.000

And so we finally kind of got to that. But I told them, I said, "We lie a lot." And I said, "I cannot tell if these dates are true or if anything." I said, "They lie to me and I lie to you, and we can't tell."

02:55:40.000 - 02:55:51.000

I said, "Let's just do it another way." And finally we kept cards and stuff. And I said, "It's not going to work." I said, "Let's just have--when a girl comes in and she is here,

02:55:51.000 - 02:56:08.000

we can assign her or not assign her to go on a trip if she feels like going and if she knows her period is not going to interfere while she's there or when she comes back and let her figure out and let her be responsible for what she's doing." But I said, "I doubt that anybody is going to crash an airplane because they have their period,

02:56:08.000 - 02:56:22.000

especially if she chose to do it." Now, if she's too sick to go and say, "I just fall apart during my period." Now, those of us, the 25 of us, we knew we're not so--we'd flown too many years. So we knew what our situation was.

02:56:22.000 - 02:56:37.000

Now, girls coming out of Sweetwater may not necessarily have long trips. You see, they're on base, go up and do a little bit, and come back home. See, they're just--they're right here. But now you take them out and let them go for five days and maybe out here or some other place,

02:56:37.000 - 02:56:51.000

maybe they don't come back for ten, and then they get puny and sick on the road. So that's a different story. But for the most part, I think the girls handle their periods just fine. We're not that much different.

02:56:51.000 - 02:57:09.000

I know while you were at Love Field, you had--or you went to Sweetwater with Miss Love. But tell me about that particular experience. When I went to Sweetwater? Well, it was a whole new world.

02:57:09.000 - 02:57:24.000

It was a whole new world. I saw more girls than I'd ever seen before flying around and everything. And I don't think I had any real purpose necessarily in going there. I didn't accomplish anything, but I was trying to find this out or that or whatever.

02:57:24.000 - 02:57:33.000

I didn't have an agenda, we'll say. I went on a visit. Well, was not Miss Love with you? Are you with her on that trip?

02:57:33.000 - 02:57:43.000

I cannot remember whether Nancy was with me when I went there or not. She could have been. Did that training school surprise you? No.

02:57:43.000 - 02:57:47.000

No. I guess because I'd heard of it or something. I don't know. Okay.

02:57:47.000 - 02:58:03.000

How did they treat you when you got there? Ordinary. I don't remember anything outstanding about it, good or bad. It's just, you know, you came to visit and you eyeballed around and enjoyed yourself and left.

02:58:03.000 - 02:58:18.000

And so nobody tripped you or kept you there or anything. Do you remember, did you give a speech or anything to the girls who were there? No, I didn't. I didn't do that.

02:58:18.000 - 02:58:38.000

Would have been fun if we'd had some little bull sessions or something, but no. We were too busy to have to get on the road again, you know. And so I did well just to look at it and see that it was there and know it. And then to see the girls that came out of Sweetwater, that came to us in Dallas, I loved them all.

02:58:38.000 - 02:58:59.000

And I don't know if anybody felt that I was a bad commanding officer or anything. I never got any bad rap back. I never got it back, we'll put it that way. And I know Marian Hodgson says, every time she sees me, "Oh, my favorite CO," you know.

02:58:59.000 - 02:59:12.000

And some of the girls in there, I just love them, you know. What made you a great CO? Made me a what? A great commanding officer of those girls.

02:59:12.000 - 02:59:27.000

I have no idea. I think everyone likes to be recognized and they like to be understood. They want to be listened to. And I think maybe that is one of the things, because I'm always eager to listen to what he has to say.

02:59:27.000 - 02:59:45.000

And then if you have to make a decision, then you make a decision. But to make a decision without listening, you don't even have the facts. Like, that's crazy. You know, as a parent or anything, just on the surface of what you see may not be all that you get.

02:59:45.000 - 03:00:00.000

You may be getting a lot of stuff undercurrent than what you see. So I would think that maybe this is where you establish a rapport with someone. You care and you listen. And then decisively do something.

03:00:00.000 - 03:00:13.000

Tell me about an outstanding incident that happened to you at Luffield. Well, now, if we're talking -- P-47? Huh?

03:00:13.000 - 03:00:24.000

P-47? Oh, absolutely. If you're talking about that, no doubt, that tops the list. But I was thinking about anything else on base that might have been outstanding.

03:00:24.000 - 03:00:45.000

I don't know of anything outstanding. I enjoyed working with the transition office and all the men. As I said before, I have always enjoyed men. And I have always looked at them not as someone who's out to get me, but someone who would tolerate me if I behaved.

03:00:45.000 - 03:01:09.000

And I think that you get along with them as you come across to them. The way you treat them and understand them is the way they'll return this to you. But if you get to be very militant and say, "You owe me this" -- and so many attitude -- "You owe me this, and I have a right to so-and-so and this and that," they're going to repel you every time.

03:01:09.000 - 03:01:26.000

They're going to see that you're in the back of the row if they can. And my attitude toward the men, I actually enjoyed them all, and I never thought they were out to get me. And they never were. And this does not mean that I didn't have a bunch of passes made at me and everything.

03:01:26.000 - 03:01:51.000

But the thing is, if you can refuse a pass without stomping his ego, he's all right. He's your friend and everything. But if you're so uppity in your refusal of anything, then you're going to get the bad flack back, I think. There are ways of getting along without being obnoxious.

03:01:51.000 - 03:02:09.000

Now, maybe that's what I'm thinking. And as I say, I don't think that I was given anything because I was a girl. I don't think I was withheld anything from me because I was a girl. I think I grew up with a couple of brothers and my father and all these uncles.

03:02:09.000 - 03:02:31.000

I was comfortable around men, and it was more like a buddy with them, sort of, this way. And they kind of took me in as such. And not to be a standoff goody-goody or something like that. I know that some guys that get around want to tell dirty jokes in front of me or something.

03:02:31.000 - 03:02:48.000

And I would just, you know, be very pleasant and all, but just not laugh when the punchline came along, you know, just la-dee-da around. And pretty soon they thought it just wasn't going over too big. I was never scrowling or anything. I was just very pleasant, but just never did quite get in on it.

03:02:48.000 - 03:03:07.000

And pretty soon he'd just poop out and go away. And I think that a lot of times--or it's just like on all these trips and everything, I'd be out with the guys all the time. I never did drink any alcohol, anything. A Coke was all I ever had.

03:03:07.000 - 03:03:17.000

Now, some reasons for that. I wasn't used to doing it, so I didn't miss it. So I was just happy without it. But on the other hand, I wanted to feel good next day.

03:03:17.000 - 03:03:40.000

And sure, as I wasn't used to doing it, and I did the night before, I'd be groggy and go to sleep on the job next day or something. So I wanted a clear head. So there were like two reasons I didn't want to do that. And however, when I was out with them, I would very--as indiscreetly as I could possibly do--whisper to the waiter, "Just a plain Coke."

03:03:40.000 - 03:03:54.000

You know, just a plain Coke. And so that nobody would try to get what I was ordering or couldn't tell what I was drinking, maybe, but didn't know if I had something in it or not. I never made an issue of it. That's just what I did.

03:03:54.000 - 03:04:15.000

But then pretty soon people started catching on that I wasn't doing it. And I know in some places, especially like in Dallas, we had these two big hotels there, and there was a lot of dining and dancing downstairs. And then when that would be through, sometimes the guy said, "We're not ready to go home upstairs yet. There's a big, nice bar across the street."

03:04:15.000 - 03:04:26.000

And there was a real nice, elegant kind of a bar. "Let's go over there." Well, I'd go over there to the bar with them. Well, in the Los Angeles area, it was kind of the same thing, and I'd go to the bar with them.

03:04:26.000 - 03:04:43.000

Well, I got the reputation of being in every bar from Los Angeles to New York with a Coke in my hand. And that's all I ever drank was a Coke. But I felt good the next day, and you know that way you're always in control of yourself. You don't have to look back and think, "I wonder what I said or did somewhere."

03:04:43.000 - 03:05:01.000

And so I think I was accepted quite well, but you, I think, have to do that in a manner in which it's not offensive because you can be extremely offensive with that. "Oh, I don't drink, boys. I don't drink.

03:05:01.000 - 03:05:12.000

I don't drink, you know. I don't think I want that." You know, you could come up with some kind of an air like that, and they'd want to slap you across the table. And that's all right if they did that to you.

03:05:12.000 - 03:05:39.000

You'd want to slap them too, wouldn't you? But I enjoyed all the men. I really did, and I was never really afraid of someone overpowering me, like making passes and overpowering. One time I thought I was getting a little close with this guy, you know, that you've got to figure out how to get them off of you.

03:05:39.000 - 03:06:08.000

But, you know, I think in those days single men were not as eager to invite you to go all the way because he knew he was obligated. He felt an obligation to you, and he didn't feel he had the right to play as much as guys today feel they have the right to play. And I think some of that came on stronger than any I found out later were married, see. And so they knew how to come on strong.

03:06:08.000 - 03:06:44.000

But anyway, I'm glad that I told myself when I first got into the military in Delaware, I don't know why that came to me with all these men and everything. But I told myself, "You are not going to do or say anything while you're in this atmosphere, how many years it takes, that you're going to be embarrassed about 50 years from now." And I made that commitment to myself that 50 years later down the road I was not going to be embarrassed with anything I said or did. And sure enough, I can go to the reunions right now and think, "Okay, boys, what do you have on me?

03:06:44.000 - 03:07:02.000

You don't have anything on me, boys." So it's real comfortable to know that you kept your nose clean while you were running around here and there and with all these men. But again, I thoroughly enjoyed the men. And to this day I enjoy men.

03:07:02.000 - 03:07:20.000

I have a lot of men friends. And I enjoy all of them. And they know, especially now, like my husband says, "As old as you are, you're not a threat to anybody." Which is real good because now I'm coming right at my 80th birthday.

03:07:20.000 - 03:07:38.000

80 years old. I can't believe that many years have gone by, which have been good and I've felt good and been in good health, but I've worked on it too to keep that way. And so I guess it's paid off. I enjoy everything.

03:07:38.000 - 03:07:57.000

Let's go back and tell me about the P-47 incident. P-47 incident. That was some incident. Maybe for this interview let me tell you about a P-51 incident first and we'll tell this one on the end.

03:07:57.000 - 03:08:19.000

Okay. This P-51, I was taking it from Los Angeles to New York, which Newark is right there at New York, and they were shipping them overseas. And so it was a real good place to take them. And the days that we flew, of course, we had no radar, which meant that they did not have good weather reports.

03:08:19.000 - 03:08:48.000

We had little balloons that went up with little instruments on the balloons, and if they said a front was going to come in, if it came in within a day and a half and when they guessed it, it was pretty good reporting. And so that was really an unknown what the weather was going to be. And the best weather report you could actually get would be -- and I think I got it this particular time from a guy in the office,

03:08:48.000 - 03:09:09.000

like say at St. Louis, you stop there and you go fill out papers for your next route, and the weather is questionable, and you know that they don't really know what it is out there, and a pilot comes, opens the office door, you run up to him, "Where did you come from?" And if he came from where you were going, "Do you think I can make it?"

03:09:09.000 - 03:09:30.000

And this was your best weather report. So anybody come in that office, you were hot on his trail, "Where did you come from?" So anyway, this time I took off in the afternoon and take out and about over the mountains in Pennsylvania, around that area, the weather absolutely fell apart.

03:09:30.000 - 03:09:47.000

Thunderstorms everywhere, front, back, around. I mean, there's no way to turn around and go back. Now, the thing is, I was always -- as I say, I'm such a chicken, I always planned very carefully where my point of no return is. Every time I go on flight, if I go this far, there's no way I'm going to get back, see.

03:09:47.000 - 03:10:10.000

Well, I was already past my point of no return, and it, you know, looked fine. Got past that, and then the whole world fell in on me, weather-wise. No going back. And then to go ahead over the mountains and hear all these big thunderstorm clouds, and they didn't -- by the time they formed, they started raining.

03:10:10.000 - 03:10:26.000

Pouring down rain, lightning everywhere, couldn't see worth hoot in this P-51, and you're not supposed to be in bad weather in a P-51. It knocks you around like crazy. You're just a little old nothing in there, and pouring down rain.

03:10:26.000 - 03:10:41.000

Sheets of it that, you know, like you couldn't see even with a windshield wiper, which you didn't have. And I knew I was in, like, bad trouble. Now, can I go across the rest of these mountains and hope to get through, and I can't get back to where I'm going? What am I going to do?

03:10:41.000 - 03:10:55.000

Where am I going to go? I'd already studied the map before I took off, again, my nose around beforehand. If I'm in trouble, I always do this. Is there an alternate that I can do on this trip before I take off to see?

03:10:55.000 - 03:11:05.000

Well, I decided there really wasn't an alternate that I could get in. I'd already decided that. I think, "There's no alternate I can get in. I already figured that out."

03:11:05.000 - 03:11:16.000

But what am I going to do? I've got to. So I thought, "Well, I'd better go over and look at this alternate." So I turned about 90 degrees off course, and again, bumpy and not being able to see.

03:11:16.000 - 03:11:29.000

You barely could see straight down out the side, see, where the rain was coming down. You could see a little tiny hole funnel down here. You could see the ground. And I went over to where I think the alternate airport was, and there it was.

03:11:29.000 - 03:11:36.000

Hey, man, I see this airport. It's too little. I can't get in that. It's just much too small.

03:11:36.000 - 03:11:43.000

But I'm here. I'll go down and look at it. So I get down, and I start going around looking at it. That is too short.

03:11:43.000 - 03:11:53.000

I'm not going to be able to make that. And I flew around like twice. There is water on the runway. It looks like it's four inches thick.

03:11:53.000 - 03:11:58.000

I can't do that. There's water on the runway. It's short, and I'm in bad trouble. No other place to go.

03:11:58.000 - 03:12:04.000

What am I going to do? And then it hit me. Ah, water. That will be a break.

03:12:04.000 - 03:12:24.000

If I hit that, that will slow me down a little bit. Maybe the runway is long enough then if I can have a break. Also, if I hit the ground right over the fence, so I have to go in. I remember the instructor who insisted all the time that I put it right where he said,

03:12:24.000 - 03:12:39.000

and then I did it to myself every time I landed, I'm going to put it right there, and then I'd keep testing myself. And I thought, well, maybe I can put it where I want to put it. But I had kept that skill a little hot.

03:12:39.000 - 03:12:52.000

So I decided that I had to do it. So I came in and made my thing, came in, landed, and put it just right on target. But when I hit that water, I'm telling you, it went up, you thought,

03:12:52.000 - 03:13:02.000

Moses part of the Red Sea. Whoosh! Everywhere, everywhere, I couldn't see a lick. Going straight down the runway, I thought, oh, Lord, keep me straight, keep me straight. Because I could not see it.

03:13:02.000 - 03:13:19.000

I was just hoping, you know, thinking every minute it's going to roll off the runway. And pretty soon the water came down again, and here was the fence right in front of me. I was able to stop, use my brakes, and stop without ground looping. I planned on the ground looping bit.

03:13:19.000 - 03:13:39.000

And I stopped without doing that, and even gave me a little bit of room that I could turn around. So I turned around, didn't hang my tail in the fence, turned around just fine, taxied down this runway, went back up to close to where the hanger was. Now, this was the P-51 was brand new at this time.

03:13:39.000 - 03:13:55.000

And I knew that people in the nation had not seen it. And I knew the people at this town, though, that never had seen one before. And sure enough, they hadn't. And so I taxied on up close to the hanger, and I saw all these guys standing out under the hanger.

03:13:55.000 - 03:14:15.000

The storm had come so fast. They were there in a primary training school, and the storm had come so fast that they all were there. And they had just gotten their airplanes off the ground before the whole thing crashed. And so I taxied up pretty close, and here comes a maintenance man.

03:14:15.000 - 03:14:33.000

He runs up here, and he jumps on the wing, you know, and he sees the girl. He just about falls off of the wing, you know. He sees the girl in there, and then he composes himself a little bit, and stands up. He's opened the canopy for me, you know, to be so nice and gentlemanly, you know.

03:14:33.000 - 03:14:46.000

And I say, "No, no, no, no, no, no, do that, don't do that, don't do that." And he backs off, surprised and everything. I didn't want to get my hair wet. And so I just sat there.

03:14:46.000 - 03:14:58.000

I just sat there until the storm had just kept coming. God, the storm's got to a bed here. Before I get out of here, I'm not going to ruin myself. So I sat there for a long time, and finally I got out.

03:14:58.000 - 03:15:18.000

It was still raining, but it wasn't quite so drenched and everything. Well, into the airport, the guy that owned the airport was president of the Chamber of Commerce, and they were having a banquet that night. Nothing would do that I wouldn't go home with him, to stay with him and his wife,

03:15:18.000 - 03:15:37.000

and go to the banquet with them. And so in the meantime, now, I get on the phone, and I call base. I've got to figure out exactly who I call, who would have had the last authority on that. And I called them, told them my predicament, and they said, "You don't have to fly it out of there.

03:15:37.000 - 03:15:51.000

We will create it out of there." But said, "You look it over, and if you feel you can get it out, we'll give you the authority to take it off. We'll give you the authority to get out, and it's going to be your decision what you're going to do." I said, "Oh, thanks a lot.

03:15:51.000 - 03:16:03.000

I should have been told what to do." And so I go to the banquet. And, of course, they had to tell where I came from, you know. "We're this beautiful airplane," the guy said, "and I've never seen or heard it before."

03:16:03.000 - 03:16:17.000

You know, a fifth one has such a sweet little song to it as it goes around and everything. And so at the banquet, they asked me, "Now, what are you going to do? What are you going to do tomorrow?" I said, "I don't know."

03:16:17.000 - 03:16:34.000

I said, "I'm going to do a lot of praying and a lot of strategizing tonight, and I don't know what I'm going to do, but whatever I do, I'm going to do about 8 o'clock in the morning. I'll be there at 8 o'clock, whatever I do." Okay, 8 o'clock comes, everybody and his dogs out there, the whole place full of people.

03:16:34.000 - 03:16:54.000

I think, "Oh, no." So I decided to take it off. Well, I had four guys, I guess it was, to go with me down to the end of the runway, and we turned the airplane around, put the tail just right in the fence, every inch I could get.

03:16:54.000 - 03:17:15.000

And two guys had wood chocks on the front to hold the airplane steady, and two guys out on the wing. Now, those wings are low enough that a guy can touch them, hold them. And so I got in that thing, and I revved it up with every bit of power I could dare put on it.

03:17:15.000 - 03:17:31.000

It's got kind of a supercharger thing on it. As much power as I could get on it, and with their holding it and my holding the brakes, and that airplane was a "blow," and I was just shaking. I mean, we were just about to tear that thing up and engine everything, and I said, "Let it go."

03:17:31.000 - 03:17:53.000

And so everybody turned loose at the same time, and I sailed down that runway. And I had already planned that before I got very far, I was releasing the gear, because I wanted to crash gear up or make it over the fence gear up, whatever. But that gear was going to be up, and I was going to release it before I actually--

03:17:53.000 - 03:18:06.000

I think I released it before I even got off the ground, but it was a very fast release on that. And sure enough, here I sailed across there and looked down, and there's the fence. I thought, "Oh, praise the Lord, there goes the fence. I'm on top of it. I'm on the top of it." [laughs]

03:18:06.000 - 03:18:23.000

And so I got on top of that fence, and I think I went treetop level before I got my composure. I was just down on the sagebrush way down the line. I got myself put together and pulled up, and I thought, "Oh, all these people down here. Man, would I love to come over here and do a little slow roll or whatever."

03:18:23.000 - 03:18:40.000

And, of course, I had learned this before I got in the service, how to do that, and I'd done it in the P-51 when nobody was looking, way up high out of spite. But all I really wanted to do that, and I thought, "No, don't be a dodo. You'll get kicked out of here so fast, it'll make your head spin.

03:18:40.000 - 03:18:56.000

Don't pull that stuff off. No, I can't do that." But I decided that maybe I could--it was a new area and everything, so I made some real low-pass passes and pulled up and then rolled it out at the top, see? Very--you know, real nice, one of the--like this, see, where they could see just a little bit of it.

03:18:56.000 - 03:19:14.000

And did that--and just go off to the woods. [laughs] Took off forever on that. But that's my little P-51 story, which, if I had not practiced landing that plane where I wanted to put it, had a degree of confidence I could do it, I don't know what I would have done.

03:19:14.000 - 03:19:31.000

I don't know. I must have done it anyway. But it gave me the confidence I think I can put it where I want to put it. And also all the other--but I got out of that just fine. Now, back to the P-47 affair.

03:19:31.000 - 03:19:44.000

The--oh, wait a minute. Before I tell you P-47/, let me tell you this one in between, which does have something to do with girls. It seemed that when they want to prove girls versus boys or whatever,

03:19:44.000 - 03:20:03.000

they pick on me and also B.J. Erickson, a London angel. So they wanted to see if girls could be airline pilots. Now, the civilians did not have any women airline pilots. They were using the DC-3, which our C-47--they were using--no girls.

03:20:03.000 - 03:20:26.000

So the military got the idea to see if girls could do the same thing. They sent B.J. and me to Romulus. We went up there for the purpose of flying a DC-3 C-47 from Romulus or Detroit, we'll say, to Chicago and back with full loads of military men both ways.

03:20:26.000 - 03:20:52.000

So making us do--the weather was--soup was out and everything. They sent us the right time of the year to put as much pressure as possible. And so our first fights on that, we took turns about who sat in the luggage that we traded out on this. And the maintenance people would load all of the cargo and parts.

03:20:52.000 - 03:21:08.000

There was a lot of parts and equipment that had priority to go. They'd load and tie down all that stuff. Then they would call the men who all had priority, might be a bird colonel who wanted to play golf in Chicago or a private here who had a sick mother,

03:21:08.000 - 03:21:26.000

but all of them had priority for that flight. And so they would--maintenance people would get the passenger or seat the passengers. Then they'd come to us and say, "We're ready to go," which, okay. So now this C-47 has a door in the back.

03:21:26.000 - 03:21:43.000

That's the only way you can get in it. So we'd crawl in this door, but what would that make us do? Walk up the aisle in between all these men and go up in the cockpit and sit down and crank up. Well, if you think that didn't raise a few hairs on their head,

03:21:43.000 - 03:21:58.000

and they would look at us--they didn't see girls in uniform, and nine, ten of them I know knew that we didn't know how to fly. I mean women weren't flying, in other words. They never saw a woman do that.

03:21:58.000 - 03:22:15.000

And here we'd walk in between them and get up there and get in the cockpit, take off. We had to fly out over Lake Michigan part of the way. We had no flotation device at all. We were flying in the soup for quite a while, not--I mean quite--a number of days,

03:22:15.000 - 03:22:26.000

not quite a while on each flight, but a number of days being in the soup. And I remember one time when it all cleared up one time, we looked down at all this water, and we said, "Ah, can you swim that far? Mm-mm. Can you swim that far?

03:22:26.000 - 03:22:39.000

Mm-mm." And so anyway, this is where the men, see, had to be with us in the soup on top of the wall, no flotation device and everything, and girls in the cockpit. Well, if you think that didn't scare them enough, well, then going into Chicago,

03:22:39.000 - 03:22:56.000

Chicago was a mess, a mess. Of course, you know, with no radar, not much control, and all that kind of thing, they would have--you know, if you're flying radio to come in into the soup, the cone, so to speak, was not where the airport was,

03:22:56.000 - 03:23:09.000

and so you had to get on treetop and hunt where the airport was. Well, she and I had gone to Chicago on a bright, pretty afternoon and had taken our maps and gone all over that area to see different checkpoints, here, here, here.

03:23:09.000 - 03:23:27.000

We pulled out of the soup, oh, here's the airport back here, where that is. And over here, we--the airport is--we had all these things hanging all around. See, the only way we knew where we were when we put a quad relationship to the airport and enabled us kind of in position to make a landing,

03:23:27.000 - 03:23:37.000

may on the runway that they were currently using. If we hadn't done that, we'd have done like the rest of them. Now, they would let you land, kind of, if it weren't quite ready, you'd pull out of the soup and you didn't exactly know where,

03:23:37.000 - 03:23:47.000

and let your person land and wait for you to come around again. They'd give you the second chance. If you just couldn't make it, you're ready at all, you might pull out of the soup and off the airport, who knows.

03:23:47.000 - 03:23:59.000

Well, then, if you didn't get in here, you'd go up to the top of the stack and you'd fly and wait your turn, and you're the idiot that ran out of gasoline, see. So you wanted to get in every time. Well, fortunately, we got in every time the first time.

03:23:59.000 - 03:24:11.000

We never did go around the second time, even. And the only reason is because we--again, a bunch of chickens here-- we knew what we were doing out here, see. We'd already tagged all that stuff, and we'd see something, we'd know where to go.

03:24:11.000 - 03:24:31.000

Well, anyway, the guys at the office and everything would bet on us. And finally, by the time we got through doing this route--I don't know how long we did this-- but they said, "Don't ever bet against those girls. You'll lose every time." Or they'd even have a circle, and you'd put your wheel in the circle when you land,

03:24:31.000 - 03:24:46.000

you know, when you taxied up, anything to bet on. Well, so finally--and our men scared out of their wits, and they'd say, "Oh, my gosh, were we ever scared." You'd get in the office and see them and talk with them. "Were we ever scared?" We said, "That's nothing. That was a big deal for us, too.

03:24:46.000 - 03:25:03.000

Yeah, we were pretty scared. We didn't want any question about it. We didn't know we could really do that. When you're just flying in the big sky and no radar and stuff, I don't know how we got around as well as we--and now you've got the GPS, everything.

03:25:03.000 - 03:25:25.000

You know exactly where you are. All the anxiety that we would not have had had we had anything like radar or the GPS or anything. And incidentally, I was testing radar equipment at the end of the war before they shifted overseas, and that was a little kind of fun episode, too. It scared the tar out of me.

03:25:25.000 - 03:25:39.000

Well, I'll finish this tale before I get in the other one. Well, anyway, so we'd land in Chicago. Now, we'd pick up a group of men, whatever it was, in Chicago, and go back to Detroit or to Romulus where we stayed.

03:25:39.000 - 03:25:51.000

Then we decided--after a while, I'm rather compassionate anyway, and I just feel sorry for anybody being so scared. I wouldn't want to be on a flight that I was that scared because a lot of times I was scared flying with some of the guys.

03:25:51.000 - 03:26:12.000

I didn't like what they were doing, and I was uneasy. But to have them scared out of their wits, we decided that we would get on the airplane first and get up in the cockpit and sit there for 30 minutes, give 30 minutes of our bathroom time to them,

03:26:12.000 - 03:26:29.000

and then they would load the passengers, and they did not know that we were there. Who was up there in the front? And we'd crank up, take off, go through all this mess. Then we decided, well, we'll get the last word on these knuckleheads when we get there.

03:26:29.000 - 03:26:43.000

So as we were taxiing up to the hangar, we would get all unstrapped with all of our stuff, and we'd get all of our little buttons in place, everything that we're supposed to have, and get it all ready. And then as we stopped and we'd turn off the second engine,

03:26:43.000 - 03:26:58.000

the minute we turned that second engine off, we'd jump out of the seats as fast as we could and stand up in the doorway, you see, and watch them. We did this just to watch their faces. And they'd look at the first girl, and then they'd look at the second girl.

03:26:58.000 - 03:27:10.000

You could just see question marks everywhere, you know. And then the next thing they'd do, someone would get on their feet. We'd do this before they had time to even stand up. Stand up and look in the cockpit.

03:27:10.000 - 03:27:24.000

Now, these girls were hooking the ride. They were not the only ones up there. They'd look in there, and they just couldn't believe it. Then when we'd get down, they'd say, "Oh, were we ever glad that we didn't know it was you up there."

03:27:24.000 - 03:27:36.000

And we said, "We did that on purpose just so you would have a nice flight, that you weren't scared that we were up there." And they were so grateful. They said, "Oh, we're so grateful."

03:27:36.000 - 03:27:52.000

But to watch their faces was just absolutely--I wish I had a camera to watch those faces. You could see that somebody in acting school, you know, you could tell every emotion they were going through when they were doing that. So we got through with that.

03:27:52.000 - 03:28:12.000

But now on this radar thing, I'll quickly say that. They had radar equipment that they were sending overseas, and I was stationed at Long Beach at the time and was chosen to be the pilot to test the radar before they sent it overseas.

03:28:12.000 - 03:28:25.000

Well, they told me a bunch of this stuff and then swore me to secrecy. I couldn't even use the word "radar" and couldn't say anything about anything that I was doing or what the equipment was and what have you.

03:28:25.000 - 03:28:47.000

And where they had--how they tested it, they would take trucks out on a bare grass prairie south of Los Angeles right on the coastline. And the trucks and all this other equipment and a little house and everything that had the main equipment in it and the screens and stuff in this little house.

03:28:47.000 - 03:29:12.000

And I was in the house and they were telling me about this, this, and this and stuff. And anyway, I was to fly a twin-engine airplane, and I had three engineers with me. Now, they each had a clipboard and they had a headset. And so they were in the airplane with me for the purpose of bird-dogging what I was doing

03:29:12.000 - 03:29:28.000

because I had to fly under the hood. So they blanked it out where I could not see. And I had to fly these--the patterns that they wanted me to fly. And the bird dogs were going to see if I did it correctly.

03:29:28.000 - 03:29:44.000

And if I did everything correctly and I didn't come out in the pattern down on the ground-- I didn't touch the ground--but to come where the runway was, they scraped out with a road grader in the grass a so-called runway. And if I didn't come out on that runway where I was supposed to,

03:29:44.000 - 03:30:04.000

then they would adjust the equipment in such a way, like on a watch, fast and slow kind of adjustment. Then I'd fly the pattern again as if it didn't come in where it's supposed to. I was flying these things for the purpose of adjusting equipment and checking it before the equipment went overseas.

03:30:04.000 - 03:30:18.000

That's what it was for. Okay, I go out and get under this hood and everything, start flying this stuff. And then they tell me, you know, "Just come on in." Now, I'm not seeing, you understand.

03:30:18.000 - 03:30:29.000

I'm flying myself into the ground by their talking to me. And I know I'm flying myself into the ground. I know those idiots are going to kill me because there's no such thing as radar. How do I know this works?

03:30:29.000 - 03:30:37.000

Nobody ever said it worked. Nobody ever used it. I never knew. And here I am, experimenting to see if the stuff's going to work or not.

03:30:37.000 - 03:30:52.000

Well, it scared me. It scared me a lot. And the guys, which was ironically engineers, they were such dodos. They didn't know disaster when it was approaching them, any time I was flying.

03:30:52.000 - 03:31:05.000

The three pilots would have never sat in there with me. They would have gotten the heck out of there, and they would have been wise to get out. But these guys, as I say, didn't know disaster when it was upon them. And I'd just like fly myself in the ground.

03:31:05.000 - 03:31:18.000

Well, I do some of these things. Well, one day I didn't feel good at all about it because I never knew each time it was even going to work. So one day I was miles away from where I was supposed to be,

03:31:18.000 - 03:31:31.000

and they called me, and I was under the hood. They called me and said, "Get out from under the hood and look at 2 o'clock. There's an airplane about 1,000 feet above you." I thought, "Hey, look, there it was."

03:31:31.000 - 03:31:40.000

I said, "I don't believe this. How do they know I'm me? How do they know he's there? This stuff must be working.

03:31:40.000 - 03:31:49.000

Something is working. How do they know that?" And so that gave me the confidence, maybe that stuff is working. Maybe they won't fly me in the ground.

03:31:49.000 - 03:32:07.000

And so with that confidence, I went back to do my little thing, and I felt much, much better about it. And then one day I was out flying, under the hood, of course, and one of the engineers says, "Boy, this fog really does come in fast."

03:32:07.000 - 03:32:17.000

I said, "Fog? Jerk off that thing, you idiots." Any time fog--because you know how much we'd see fog, we'd turn tail and run like you wouldn't believe it.

03:32:17.000 - 03:32:29.000

Off of that Pacific, you know, a big old bank of fog would just come in and just consume you in no time at all. Here we were sitting in awe of this fog. It had come in, I don't know for how long we'd been flying in it.

03:32:29.000 - 03:32:44.000

And knuckleheads there. And so that really kind of ticked me off, and I couldn't use the word "radar," and I called the station. I said, "If this stuff is anything at all, give me a heading to the Long Beach Airport."

03:32:44.000 - 03:32:56.000

They said, "Okay." So they gave me a heading to the Long Beach Airport. By golly, I followed that heading to the Long Beach Airport, and I found the airport. Now, of course, they could not have told me exactly,

03:32:56.000 - 03:33:09.000

but I was familiar with the Long Beach Airport. And you know they have all these mountains, the hills, they're called Signal Hill. All of them had hundreds of oil derricks. All the derricks themselves, all up and down, all these hills.

03:33:09.000 - 03:33:22.000

Just hundreds of them. And here's our airport right here. And the way we could tell what the visibility was is if you could see this storage tank and the oil derricks at the end of the runway.

03:33:22.000 - 03:33:32.000

You could tell how much of the visibility was if you could see them. Now, that's how we flew into that mess. I don't know who got there first, the oil wells at the airport, but they didn't belong together anyway.

03:33:32.000 - 03:33:46.000

But I found that airport. I found that Signal Hill with all that stuff on it, and then I knew where to go to go find the airport. So I came in and landed, and the guys that--the pilots that were standing there were saying,

03:33:46.000 - 03:33:54.000

"How did you get here? How did you make it?" And I said, "Oh, I just lucked out, guys. Just lucked out."

03:33:54.000 - 03:34:11.000

Well, the only way I lucked out, radar sent me right to it, or I never would have found it. At this point, Florine, were the runways camouflaged on the West Coast? No, this wasn't. Now, some of the factories we'd go to--I think it was Bowling--I don't know what factory now--

03:34:11.000 - 03:34:24.000

that we'd go to that would scare you to get on the runway because the buildings were all camouflaged, and you couldn't tell if that was really a thing or if that was a building. You didn't know how high you were. I know there were times that I thought, "Wait a minute.

03:34:24.000 - 03:34:42.000

I don't know exactly where I am," because it was so well done. But around those factories, there was camouflage there. But our runway itself, no, it wasn't camouflaged. And so anyway, I found that one just fine.

03:34:42.000 - 03:34:58.000

So radar really worked. The radar really worked, and that gave me more confidence, especially when he told me that I was where that airplane was, and it was really there, and I was where I was. I thought, "Man, you know, we've never heard of something like that.

03:34:58.000 - 03:35:08.000

That's really big stuff." At that point in your flying, you were stationed at Long Beach? At Long Beach. And I didn't tell anybody at Long Beach.

03:35:08.000 - 03:35:19.000

They told me I couldn't tell anybody. So when I just lucked out and came in, you know, that's just all I just lucked out. Nothing helped me or anything else. And so even the girls around did not know what I was doing.

03:35:19.000 - 03:35:31.000

They told me, "Just keep quiet. Don't use this word or anything. You just come out here on a certain schedule, and you're doing this." So I did what I was told and kept my mouth shut.

03:35:31.000 - 03:35:43.000

What kind of airplane were you flying? Do you know? You know, right now I can't think what it was, but it was a twin-engine '89 or '10, I think. I think that's what it was.

03:35:43.000 - 03:35:56.000

I was familiar with it, whatever it was, but it was not a UC-78. It wasn't that. It was one of those others. But those engineers, I thought later, "Dum-dum."

03:35:56.000 - 03:36:12.000

How they would get in an airplane to do that with somebody, especially a girl, they didn't even know. How'd they know that radar worked? I guess maybe they worked around it to know that it was working and it worked some other place. But I'd never heard of it before, never heard of it working or anything.

03:36:12.000 - 03:36:29.000

So, well, in any event, shall we crash this little thing with the B-47? Why not? We'll close this. Can you think of anything else before I get into this for any kind of background or something that we had?

03:36:29.000 - 03:36:50.000

No, I can ask you what was the most frightening thing that ever happened to you, and maybe that's part of the B-47. When you were flying, were any of the girls killed? Oh, yeah. Yes, yes. Okay.

03:36:50.000 - 03:36:57.000

We're rolling. Okay. Somebody that was killed. Oh, yeah, someone getting killed.

03:36:57.000 - 03:37:29.000

When I was in pursuit school in Palm Springs, California, and I went there after the B-47 incident, and Nancy Love came, and she and I were at the end of one of our main runway waiting for an airplane to come in. I was to get in the back seat. The instructor was in this AT-6.

03:37:29.000 - 03:37:48.000

AT-6 and Dorothy Scott, one of our girls and instructor, were AT-6. When that AT-6 landed, I was out there on the field for the purpose of getting in, trading places with her, you see, instead of waiting to go back up here and all that time involved. So I was already out at the field.

03:37:48.000 - 03:38:10.000

So Nancy and I were standing here at the end of the runway, watching the AT-6 make its pattern, make the final approach straight in. As we stood there, there is a big mountain there, 13,000 feet high. I don't know how much on the ground, but that much in the air, great big right up here.

03:38:10.000 - 03:38:28.000

Then this airport is right kind of at the base of that. When an airplane is flying around this way, you don't see the airplane with the sky behind it at all. You see it with shrubbery behind it, and you can't see it working its way through the trees and the shrubbery and so forth against this mountain. Very dangerous, very dangerous for there.

03:38:28.000 - 03:38:52.000

So as we stood there, watch this one come in. Here we saw a P-39 come out from in the bush, the brush with the mountain background, coming out to the sky part, and you could see it. Well, it was coming around, making a round approach, and here this was coming in a straight approach. That P-39 just kept coming, and they just kept coming.

03:38:52.000 - 03:39:20.000

We said, "Somebody's got to give. Somebody's got to give. I don't know. There's going to be a crash," and sure enough, there was a crash. They came right in here, and we stood there and just watched them and waited until it happened, and there they hit. A collision, and just a few yards from the back end of the runways where it was, and they weren't very high, 50 feet maybe, 75 or 100.

03:39:20.000 - 03:39:40.000

I don't know. Quite low, I would say, from your standpoint. When they crashed with this big bang, and then part of the stuff fell right to the ground fast, and other parts, I remember, just floated like this in the air. They had all torn up and just pieces floated down.

03:39:40.000 - 03:40:02.000

Well, all three of them were killed, and Dottie's body was cut in two. Now, it did not burn, so that was fortunate. Nancy and I were there, and Nancy told me, "You are the commanding officer." She was stationed in Dallas, and I was stationed in Dallas at this time.

03:40:02.000 - 03:40:30.000

Nancy told me that, "She's your girl. You're going to have to call the family." I had to call. She didn't have a mother. I knew she had the father and brother, and I'd met them. I had to call them. Then I rode in the hearse with the driver and I and the body of Scott in the hearse,

03:40:30.000 - 03:40:54.000

and we went to Burbank and had the burial there in Burbank. Now, at that time, the government never paid a dime for anybody who got killed, as we well know. Family had to bury them, and that was a little much, I guess you'd say. But I remember that at this time, I don't know who arranged for that.

03:40:54.000 - 03:41:22.000

I personally didn't, but there were two militarily dressed men. I mean, just like privates, were there in uniform with a flag, and they folded the flag off of the casket and gave it to the father. Now, that was the military-only part of that, but I am not sure who said for those two uniformed men.

03:41:22.000 - 03:41:39.000

They were just private, I think, or sergeants, but they were not officers, as I recall. >> That was most unusual. >> Very unusual, very unusual to stand there and see something like that and to anticipate seeing it. It didn't just happen. We just stood there, "Ah, somebody's got to move."

03:41:39.000 - 03:41:55.000

And here, we didn't have any radio. There was nothing we could do but stand there and watch it. Now, I don't know what the tower was doing at the time or how anybody got-- I'm sure that the instructor would have had the right of way. He was the correct one coming in on his final approach.

03:41:55.000 - 03:42:18.000

The other guy making his round circle just didn't fit. I don't know where he came from. >> The honor of that flag being placed on her coffin, did you ever know any other wasp that that happened? >> That that happened to? I would guess that it did. I don't know. I would guess it did. Now, see, this just came out of nowhere.

03:42:18.000 - 03:42:44.000

We were on a military base, and I don't know, somebody was taking care of the investigation or something. Somebody did that. I didn't. But I was just really thrilled when I saw that, that we at least had a flag there. But somehow or another, I am thinking that surely some of the others got a flag. You don't think so? I don't know why they would have.

03:42:44.000 - 03:43:10.000

We can get down to it, but I guess it's just wishful hoping that they did. But since we came right off the military base, I think that was why. That somebody there did that, and we probably would have never seen it happen. If the body had been going to Kalamazoo somewhere, a normal funeral home, parents paying, it wouldn't have happened.

03:43:10.000 - 03:43:33.000

They probably didn't. So, well, after we did that, some more questions maybe. See if you can think of anything else, because I wouldn't have thought of those. I'm thinking of anything unusual that happened with any of the girls when you were their squadron commander.

03:43:33.000 - 03:44:01.000

Well, nothing, I think, unusual. I know in Del Scharr's book, she said that she was so very ill when she was in Long Beach, and she thought she was going to die, and she gives me credit for her being alive, of what things that I did to initiate some attention toward her from the military at that time.

03:44:01.000 - 03:44:32.000

And I remember that in her mind, there's just no way she would have lived if I hadn't come through doing what I did for her. And that was kind of different, and I was not aware of being that instrumental. Okay. The only other thing I want to ask you about your time when you were squadron commander, at one point, General Armel decided that all the trainees that had graduated

03:44:32.000 - 03:44:53.000

and the women who were flying for the ferrying service, that they would all then be designated as WASPs, as Women Air Force Service Pilots. What was your feeling about that? It didn't bother me a bit, because I realized that we were a small group,

03:44:53.000 - 03:45:12.000

and different kind of qualifications, and we were such a little drop in the bucket from head count, and that everybody else was the same. We were the oddballs. And so when they changed the name, it didn't bother me.

03:45:12.000 - 03:45:28.000

It just incorporated us in it, because it would not change any of who we were, or where we came from, or what we'd done, or anything. It was a name that fit everything. All right. I'll stop for a second.

03:45:28.000 - 03:45:45.000

With all of that behind us. Okay. There is one other question I wanted to ask you. At some point, before we were disbanded, everybody got new Santiago Blue uniforms. Were you given one of those uniforms?

03:45:45.000 - 03:45:54.000

So you wore the pinks and the greens? Well, I wore the--well, yeah, I see what you're saying. Yes, no, I did have one. Yeah. I owned one.

03:45:54.000 - 03:46:05.000

I was thinking you're saying like a second one or something. No. No, I owned a blue one. Okay. And, however, the other one, you know, I wore it so much.

03:46:05.000 - 03:46:12.000

But-- But they did not discriminate and not give you a uniform? No. No. Okay.

03:46:12.000 - 03:46:22.000

I think I paid for it, but I got one. Yes, we did, too. Yeah, I think I did. I think I paid for it. But I can't be too sure of that, but I did have one anyway.

03:46:22.000 - 03:46:57.000

And I think of something else now when we're talking about the gray uniform reminds me of one time I took off to go north in a P-51 again, happened to be. I left Los Angeles, went to El Paso in the middle of the heat of the summer, 104 or whatever, and got there. And a little maintenance man comes running up to me and says, "Hey," he says, "there's a girl sitting over there in her airplane. She's been waiting for you. She's been waiting for you.

03:46:57.000 - 03:47:14.000

It's been an hour, at least an hour. She's over there waiting." I said, "Oh, okay." And so I got out of that cockpit, crawled out on the wing, opened the thing, got a pair of dry pants, shut it, walked over to her.

03:47:14.000 - 03:47:33.000

I said, "Is this what you need?" "Oh, that's what I need. That's what I need. That's what I need." She had been sitting in that airplane in that heat all that time. She knew I was coming, and she knew I might have an extra pair of pants.

03:47:33.000 - 03:47:45.000

I gave her my pair of pants, and I think maybe a month or so later I got them back. It was a long time in there. But I had two pair of pants with my gray suit. That's why that made her remind me.

03:47:45.000 - 03:48:08.000

But I'm telling you, going to the bathroom was a big, big deal, because you can imagine that when the engine starts acting up and the weather starts closing in on you and you don't know exactly where you are and you're starting to get cold, don't think you don't have to go to the bathroom, that you can't wait.

03:48:08.000 - 03:48:25.000

You get all nervous about the situation you're in, and then you get cold on top of that, and you know you can't go to the bathroom, and that's when you have to go, because you know you can't. It is just murder. We have just died 16 deaths, I have.

03:48:25.000 - 03:48:40.000

I'm thinking, "Oh, I'll never make it." But I never did go to an alternate airport to land because of that, but I know some of them who have. Especially with the fast equipment, you didn't have places to go. You just better find that.

03:48:40.000 - 03:48:48.000

And the boys, they said, "Oh, la-dee-da. It wasn't anything to them with their relief tube. They could just be fine." Okay, now we're going to go to the 47.

03:48:48.000 - 03:49:12.000

Okay, now P-47. As I had said before, I did get to fly, like everything that they had. I flew the twin engines and the cargoes and the four engines and all of the fighter planes and training and so forth. But this time I had never flown a fighter.

03:49:12.000 - 03:49:32.000

The P-47 was the first fighter airplane I ever flew, and I flew that at Dallas before I went to pursuit school. And they had, as I said also before, is that all of the airplanes that I checked out in, I never did ask to be checked out in anything.

03:49:32.000 - 03:49:49.000

The opportunity just came to me, did I want to do that? It's available, and you bet. So I did. Well, this morning, Sunday morning, the transition department called me and said,

03:49:49.000 - 03:50:01.000

"We have a P-47 here. We'd like to check you out in it. You want to come over to transition?" "Sure, I'd be glad to." So I marched over there, and they gave me the tech manuals and papers and stuff

03:50:01.000 - 03:50:24.000

and talked to me about several ground work for quite some time. And I got everything on the ground and asking all the questions I need to ask for a period of time. And then afternoon came, and I was ready, after all my paperwork and stuff, to get in the airplane and get to fly.

03:50:24.000 - 03:50:46.000

Well, the day was a very hazy-like day, sun out, but a lot of haze. And we had one of our main runways that we used nearly all the time, our very favorite runway, had new airplanes stacked wingtip to wingtip on both sides of that runway, and it was a narrow runway.

03:50:46.000 - 03:51:11.000

Lettelfield didn't look a thing then like it looks now. And so we couldn't use that runway because of the danger of the parked airplanes on it. So they made us use the short runway from east to west, straight into the sun. And the little short one, and so the P-47, really to get down and have any room to stop or maneuver,

03:51:11.000 - 03:51:34.000

it was short for that. It wasn't a good runway for any of the airplanes, really. So I used that runway, took off, did just fine, did all my stuff, you know. And now Dallas, keep in mind, has just buildings and houses all around the airport.

03:51:34.000 - 03:51:46.000

It's solid. There is no bare approach like airports have now. There's none. And even to this day, they're not there.

03:51:46.000 - 03:52:04.000

But there's not there what was there when I was there. Anyway, this little short runway, and right at the east end of it where we were flying into the west, the east end of it had a traffic street. There's a whole lot of traffic on this street.

03:52:04.000 - 03:52:30.000

And back here were restaurants and other businesses and houses and buildings and all that stuff, just solid. And then the traffic here and then a big high line right on the other side of the traffic. Right immediately, the tarmac went right up against the high line. And it was all the way, the high line, all the way across the back of this runway

03:52:30.000 - 03:52:45.000

and, of course, the back of the whole field, actually. So I had been doing a lot of my patterns. In the 47, it has a big, big old engine of all the airplanes. It's as blind as a bat.

03:52:45.000 - 03:52:58.000

Even in good conditions, it's blind. And when you taxi it, it is so blind in front of you that you have to turn sideways to look, see if the runway is clear to strip. Okay, there's nothing in front of me.

03:52:58.000 - 03:53:07.000

I guess I can taxi. So you turn it back around and you taxi blind. And then you peak again, and then you go blind. Now, that's the only way you get around.

03:53:07.000 - 03:53:25.000

It's just like this, that you taxi that airplane. Well, when you come in land, it's almost the same thing. Unless you're coming in pretty steep, you don't see over any of this big radial engine and the prop. And it's according to what the atmosphere is, how well you see the prop.

03:53:25.000 - 03:53:41.000

And many times the prop, especially in a haze, is just like a curtain. The prop itself, as it goes around, is blind. There's no seeing through the big engine. And so you have a big wall, just like that wall over there.

03:53:41.000 - 03:53:53.000

You've got that in front of you. There's no penetrating by sight. And so what you do is you look down here, just like when you're taxiing. You look down here and see what you're seeing and going over.

03:53:53.000 - 03:54:11.000

Well, this was a day you couldn't see much anyway, but I'd made a number of passes, you know, and take off and come back around. I knew just exactly where this building was, where this is and where this is, and I know what's coming up next and everything.

03:54:11.000 - 03:54:31.000

And I knew the telephone poles coming up next. And sure enough, I was about this last time, they had already called in everybody. They said, "We're closing the airport. The airport is closed. Anybody out there get in. This is your last down because the haze and the visibility is zero."

03:54:31.000 - 03:54:41.000

Come in. And I had already told myself, "Boy, if I get down this time, I'm not going up again." And sure enough, then they closed it. See, before I could even make my pattern, they'd already closed it.

03:54:41.000 - 03:54:57.000

When I took off that last time, I thought, "I'm not doing this again." So anyway, I come in and I'm looking straight down, doing my thing, and gear down and flaps and what have you. And sure enough, I was about 10 feet lower than I intended to be.

03:54:57.000 - 03:55:15.000

Going over the telephone post, you could just barely get over it to get down to do your thing. You didn't have any altitude to come over it like this. So I'd always come over it rather low. But I was about 10 feet lower than I had planned to be, at least if not a little bit more,

03:55:15.000 - 03:55:33.000

and I ran right straight into the post. Now, the post had a lot of crossbars on it, a whole bunch of them, real heavy. And I hit that post and that crossbar--I don't know if it was the crossbars or the post itself--what I hit. But it never did knock it down, that darn thing stood up after I got through with it.

03:55:33.000 - 03:55:48.000

It never did completely go down. It had so much junk on it, you know, that hit it, and it just kept standing up. But anyway, I hit it, and as soon as I hit it, I knew exactly what I'd done, because I was waiting for it to pass.

03:55:48.000 - 03:55:59.000

And when I went to crunch and the thing, I knew exactly what I'd done. So I was not in a state of surprise. I was in a state of getting busy and getting the heck out of there. I want to get out of Dodge here.

03:55:59.000 - 03:56:17.000

So anyway, it was like that. So I hit that top part, and it threw the airplane up like this and started to roll it. Now, here I am just a telephone post off the ground, and here I am in a row. And if I hadn't had aerobatic training, before, there was no way I could have corrected for that,

03:56:17.000 - 03:56:32.000

nor there would be no way I'd even know what attitude I was in, because, you know, aerobatics gives you like crazy. You don't know exactly where you are. And so I knew exactly what to do to recover for that thing.

03:56:32.000 - 03:56:48.000

Well, I recovered and slipped out and didn't hit my gear on the grass, because now I was way off the runway. Here I am on the grass. All the time now, you remember, I've got my flaps down, the power decreased.

03:56:48.000 - 03:57:07.000

And in a position going down, here I go up in less of power up here, like in a stall, practically, gear down, flaps down. I don't know if a worse situation could find yourself, really. And here I was just fighting.

03:57:07.000 - 03:57:29.000

I was throwing on the power on the thing and then trying to get the gear up and then trying to control the controls and get the thing out. Now, the airplane was torn up enough that I had to cross controls to fly that thing, and I was having hard left rudder and right stick.

03:57:29.000 - 03:57:45.000

And my back hurt for two weeks after I sat in that thing, and I was like this the whole time. And it was hard, you know, hard pulling on both of those. And anyway, I got the thing down, and something--when I hit that thing, there was screaming in my ear.

03:57:45.000 - 03:58:02.000

Now, all of what was going on, this noise, you know, will knock you down. Well, I had knocked out the radio, and that was the scream that I had, and then it pretty soon went off. Well, I got out here in the middle of the airport, in the middle of the grass.

03:58:02.000 - 03:58:22.000

It was clear off the runway by this time and straight, but I was heading right into a hangar. And at the end, I tell you, those runways can be really short, you know, it seems like. Here I'm just out, and I'm just heading right into this hangar. And the funny thing was I thought--you know, like a picture show,

03:58:22.000 - 03:58:34.000

you've seen them where they took a little old airplane, and they fly through a hangar door, and there's a hole on the other end, they fly out. I thought about that. I just zoomed in my mind, I thought, "There's no hole on the other side.

03:58:34.000 - 03:58:43.000

I can't do this." And I thought, "I've got to get over the top of this thing, and, oh, if I ever get over the top of this thing, I'm getting the heck out of here." Now, that's what was going through my mind.

03:58:43.000 - 03:58:55.000

And all the time I'm cross-controlling, and the thing is vibrating. Oh, it started vibrating immediately. I could not read an instrument. It was just--this whole panel was just--I couldn't tell where anything was.

03:58:55.000 - 03:59:07.000

And so there wasn't any reading speeds or reading anything. You're flying by the seat of your pants with all of your head and hoping that you could not stall it while you kept inching it over the top of the thing. Well, I got over the top of the thing.

03:59:07.000 - 03:59:21.000

Oh, thank you, Lord, I'm getting out of here. And so I said, "I'm going to go to the north part of Dallas," where it wasn't as populated and had a lake out there also. So I took out toward that area.

03:59:21.000 - 03:59:31.000

And as I took out, the thing's still vibrating like mad, and my ear says, "Something's wrong, something's wrong." Red light, red light, something's wrong. Well, I couldn't make it go off.

03:59:31.000 - 03:59:42.000

By what I was doing up or down, I couldn't tell if I had one wheel or two or up or down. There was just nothing in the cockpit. Just saying, "It's not right. That's all I was getting from that." I thought, "Oh, thank goodness."

03:59:42.000 - 03:59:57.000

You know, that's all I need. And so I was just mushing full power going on out to get some altitude. I thought, "If I can get altitude, I'm getting out." So as I got altitude and everything, I finally got control enough and got senses together

03:59:57.000 - 04:00:15.000

that I thought, "I'll look around, see what this thing looks like." So I finally could get my -- and I looked out here at the wing, and there's some flap or the -- I couldn't have been that much of aileron before it was all torn up and messed up. Then I finally turned around and looked at the tail, and the tail messed up.

04:00:15.000 - 04:00:27.000

Oh, the stuff on the tail's not good. And all this vibrating. And my holding -- So I got up to some more altitude, and I got to figuring out --

04:00:27.000 - 04:00:39.000

Now, at this time, it's getting dark. It was right late, late afternoon. I was going right into -- that's where it was so, so blind. And even while I was just tooting around out there, it was just dusk, and I could just barely see.

04:00:39.000 - 04:00:52.000

So I picked out a house and everything that I thought I'd bail out, and the wind is this way and blah, blah, and I'd get right here. Well, I had that all figured out. And then I opened the cockpit.

04:00:52.000 - 04:01:07.000

I thought, well, I'm getting out of here. And I unstrapped my stuff and started to stand up. And all this time now, I'm crossing controls heavy like this, you know, to keep it flying straight. I'm just going like this, just pushing hard on it.

04:01:07.000 - 04:01:21.000

And I started to get out of it. And then I thought, now, wait just a bloody minute. You are having a hard time. But you are in control.

04:01:21.000 - 04:01:35.000

You are making that plane go straight. And I thought, well, maybe -- I wonder if there's any possibility of landing. Is this thing going to stall on me when I slow it down any? Because it was just flushing it that, you know.

04:01:35.000 - 04:01:46.000

And the gear, I said, I can't do gears. It's not right. So anyway, I'm going to try it. And I started pulling it up to get some simulated stalls, just like you'd have to stall it to land it.

04:01:46.000 - 04:01:56.000

I wanted to see how the thing felt and if I could control it. So I pulled it up to see if I could stall it. I wouldn't dare stall the thing, say full power. I wouldn't dare stall it.

04:01:56.000 - 04:02:15.000

And then I started checking, pulling back a little bit of the power to see how it would stall. I figured out that if I pull back a third of the power, it would stall on me just like that. So I knew how to handle the stall. If I were to come in for a landing, I'd have to full power on clear until I wanted to drop it.

04:02:15.000 - 04:02:33.000

Because when I cut that power back, it's going to -- so I had that all figured out. But in the meantime, I was using every radio frequency I could to see somebody talk to me. I didn't know I had knocked out the radio. And I couldn't get anybody on any frequency that I had.

04:02:33.000 - 04:02:48.000

I had available a lot of frequencies. Nobody talked to me. And so I said, "Well, I'll go back to the airport, and I'll think about landing, but I'll go back here anyway," although everything was messed up.

04:02:48.000 - 04:03:03.000

So I turned to go back to the airport. I'm telling you, that's when I got scared and got sick. When I turned around to go to the airport, I was north of town then. When I turned around and there was no airport, black night.

04:03:03.000 - 04:03:19.000

I had never flown at night before, never flown this airplane before. And here I am in a black night, not an airport in sight. And I thought, "Have I lost my mind? Am I disoriented?"

04:03:19.000 - 04:03:31.000

I had a decent sense of direction, I thought, and here I am up here. And I don't know where I am because the airport's not there, so where could I be? I know I was in Dallas. I know I left Dallas.

04:03:31.000 - 04:03:47.000

What is going on? And I felt oriented, and I got--I was more frightened and scared right then. I thought, "I'm losing my cool," you know. It wasn't where it was supposed to be, and my direction says that airport is there and it's not there.

04:03:47.000 - 04:04:06.000

It took me a long time to figure out that it had to be there and no lights. But now what my next thought was, I saw some lights over this way, and I said, "If Dallas has got to be, I'm going to march over there, and if I see that red mohawk running around like this, I know that's Dallas.

04:04:06.000 - 04:04:17.000

And if I know that's Dallas, I know the airport's over here." With my sense of direction, it's got to be there. So I fly over there. There's that red horse.

04:04:17.000 - 04:04:25.000

I thought, "Oh, praise the Lord, a red horse." It is Dallas. I haven't lost my mind that much. But here's the airport, and there's not a light on it.

04:04:25.000 - 04:04:35.000

I thought, "Oh, no. What am I going to do?" Here I am at night running around and no lights on anything. So about time I was back to the airport, a little old boy on the radio said,

04:04:35.000 - 04:04:45.000

"Are you having trouble?" I certainly am. Who are you? He said, "I am a radio repairman in the Lockheed hangar at Loveville,

04:04:45.000 - 04:04:59.000

and I hear you, I heard you." This whole time I was just yacking like crazy, just flipping it, like anybody, somebody talk to me, please. So anyway, he said, "I'm on Loveville at Lockheed Airport,

04:04:59.000 - 04:05:12.000

and I'm doing this radio. I'm working on this radio." So I said, "Oh, do me a favor, if you would. Please call the tower and see if anybody is in the tower at Loveville

04:05:12.000 - 04:05:29.000

and tell them that I'm out here and that I want to fly by, if I can find the tower, and let them see if I have any wheels. Shine the red and the green light on me." By this time I had figured out that with the lights out

04:05:29.000 - 04:05:43.000

and the radio that I had knocked them out. I finally hit me that that's what happened. So I told them, I said, "I'm going to go find the tower." So I go, and being familiar with the field, I found that tower, black night.

04:05:43.000 - 04:05:51.000

I don't know if they had candles in it or what. There weren't any lights. But anyway, I found the tower. Okay.

04:05:51.000 - 04:06:10.000

Okay. Well, I'm here in this black night, and I tell him that I'm going to try to find the tower for him to telephone over there and see if they can shine the red and green light or something to see if they can see any wheels or not.

04:06:10.000 - 04:06:23.000

The thing is, when he would call over there, they would have their conversation, and then he would talk to me. Then they'd have a conversation, and then he'd talk to me. So it was kind of a long, drawn-out process.

04:06:23.000 - 04:06:33.000

It wasn't as if you could just talk to them. So I flew over, and I found the tower. I don't know how I saw that in that black night. I mean, the Lord just led me to it, I guess.

04:06:33.000 - 04:06:45.000

But I knew where it was supposed to be, basically, in all this black stuff. So the word got back to me. They said, "Yeah, they thought they saw two wheels. They thought."

04:06:45.000 - 04:06:57.000

I said, "Well, okay. I hope they know how to count." Then I told the little man, I said, "Okay, if they think that, I believe I'll try to land this."

04:06:57.000 - 04:07:16.000

Then I said, "Would you call the tower and see if they can get the smudge pots out to line the runway for me?" So we wait a while, and then I fly around and use my gasoline and wait a while to see about the smudge pots.

04:07:16.000 - 04:07:29.000

Well, they find out that the sergeant who was in charge of smudge pots was gone, and he had the key in his pocket. No smudge pots. I thought, "Oh, this is nice. No smudge pots."

04:07:29.000 - 04:07:45.000

So after that, I said, "Well, tell them to get some jeep lights out there on the runway so that I can see where the runway is." Well, they did that, called in, "Yeah, we're going to have some jeep lights out there."

04:07:45.000 - 04:07:56.000

They called back and said, "Yeah, the jeep lights are out there. They're there." An old lapse of time in here, of course. I look, and I said, "I can't see them. I can't see them at all.

04:07:56.000 - 04:08:06.000

There's too much traffic. I can't see it." Well, see, where I hit-- The whole thing is I used a different runway. I did not use the runway that I hit on.

04:08:06.000 - 04:08:20.000

It's too short, and we weren't used to it. The other runway that they wouldn't let us use that day had all these stacked airplanes all along, all these silver airplanes. I said, "I'm going to use an old home-based runway that I'm familiar with.

04:08:20.000 - 04:08:30.000

I don't care if it is that way." And besides, they didn't have that many-- The houses and stuff were oriented at the back of this runway, like over here, see, the solid houses.

04:08:30.000 - 04:08:47.000

It still is, and to this runway here. So I said, "How about the jeep lights?" I told you there was traffic on the west all the way around where the high lines were that I hit.

04:08:47.000 - 04:09:01.000

And on this square of it, they were all around this square too. So the back of the runway that I chose had a line of traffic on it, just like that, and it's just solid traffic. Well, the runway backs up right to the traffic,

04:09:01.000 - 04:09:11.000

and where they put the jeeps was at the end of the runway, which backed up to the traffic for me, and I couldn't see the lights for the traffic lights. Well, as it turned out, then--

04:09:11.000 - 04:09:23.000

This has happened long enough, the crisis was, that people started finding out about it, and the police went out and stopped the cars on this-- where my runway was,

04:09:23.000 - 04:09:35.000

and had them turn the lights off. And so I said, "I see the jeep now." I said, "I see the jeep lights." Well, then I said, "I've got to have some lights at the end of the runway

04:09:35.000 - 04:09:45.000

to see what the line is." You could go any way, you know, as long as you found the back of it. I said, "Give me some on the end of it." And so they called back fine and said,

04:09:45.000 - 04:09:57.000

"We've got the jeep lights on the end of it." I said, "Oh, hooray then. Okay." Well, all this time, I'm running around, and my gasoline is going down like crazy.

04:09:57.000 - 04:10:16.000

And I know this, and that gets me a little bit nervous, to say the least. So I told them that I was going to come in and make a pass at the runway. I said, "I do not intend to land. I want to see if I have lined up exactly what I do see,

04:10:16.000 - 04:10:31.000

and I'm going to just make a pass at it and go on." And so I came around in position and got just right, made a pass down the runway, and I found my landing lights also.

04:10:31.000 - 04:10:40.000

And I had been using landing lights. Had a whole bunch of toggle switches over here, and I was scared to death that I was going to hit the wrong one and turn the whole thing off or something.

04:10:40.000 - 04:10:50.000

But anyway, I got the landing lights. So the landing lights came down, and I saw all of these shiny, shiny airplanes, man alive. Well, now, actually, when I made my pass,

04:10:50.000 - 04:11:02.000

I didn't have my -- I don't think I had my landing lights on on purpose then. But secondly, I did. But anyway, when I made my pass there on the runway, I got lined up just fine.

04:11:02.000 - 04:11:17.000

But when I started to pull up from that pass, I mean the Lord told me -- I don't think there's any question about -- but I knew with a certainty that I did not have enough gas except to go around and make another pass or go up and bail out.

04:11:17.000 - 04:11:29.000

And the decision came to me just like the Lord had told me, "What are you going to do? You have a choice. Make your landing, go jump out. That's all the gas you have."

04:11:29.000 - 04:11:43.000

And I knew without a question that's all I had. Well, that was when I got scared. That was when I got disoriented, I thought. And when I had to make up, I knew that I was really pushing the wire.

04:11:43.000 - 04:11:55.000

And I got scared then. And I remember how sick -- it got me sick at the stomach. Well, I decided as I pulled up, "What am I going to do? What am I going to do?" So I decided I'll go around the land.

04:11:55.000 - 04:12:06.000

So I turned around to come in to make my pattern, came in just fine to make my landing. But having not been able to see the instruments, I don't know how I ever knew how high off the ground I was to start with

04:12:06.000 - 04:12:24.000

because it was so black night. But as I came to make my approach, I was lower than I wanted to be. And in the back of this runway was a high-tension transmission line. You know, it looked like oil derricks, all those big lines.

04:12:24.000 - 04:12:38.000

Well, there's one line back here. It wasn't as close up like the telephone posts were, but back here. And I was lower than I wanted to be, and my landing light shined on this big old oil derrick, you might say.

04:12:38.000 - 04:12:50.000

And I remember saying out loud, "Ugh!" I remember saying that. Well, I saw that. And sure enough, I eased up over the top of that. I thought, "Oh, if I jerk it, I'll stall.

04:12:50.000 - 04:13:07.000

And if you don't do it fast enough, you won't make it." You might say, "Really, just how much is much without stalling it?" And I got over the top of that thing, and, boy, I put my nose down like this. And so I took the sagebrush all into the runway, about as high as I was.

04:13:07.000 - 04:13:20.000

And then when I got to it, I say, all those shiny airplanes showed up on the landing lights. And then when I got into the runway and got my plane in position and pulled back the power, I'm telling you that thing sat down like a rock,

04:13:20.000 - 04:13:34.000

three-point landing, just like that, and didn't bounce, didn't do anything. It didn't have any power to bounce or any lift to bounce. It just sat. And so I went thud down on three points and rolled down the runway

04:13:34.000 - 04:13:46.000

and came to the taxi strip, turned off of the taxi strip. And see, my gear didn't collapse. I didn't know it wasn't going to. And sure enough, it didn't collapse.

04:13:46.000 - 04:14:00.000

And I pulled off to the taxi strip and just sat there. I thought, "I can't go up there. I'm going to get out of this plane. I'm going to run.

04:14:00.000 - 04:14:06.000

I'm going to go this way. I'm getting out of here. This is too embarrassing, too bad. They're going to kill me."

04:14:06.000 - 04:14:17.000

And all the time I was flying, I was scared to death as a commanding officer was going to cut my head off. Tearing up an airplane, you don't do that. You tear up yourself, but don't you tear up that airplane.

04:14:17.000 - 04:14:29.000

And so I thought, "I can't go up there." So I just sat there a while and then gave myself a speech. And I said to me, "Don't be a dodo. You got yourself down.

04:14:29.000 - 04:14:43.000

Don't be a dodo and fall off the wing when you get out of the airplane and knock out your teeth." And so after giving myself a speech, I decided, "Well, I guess I'll have to go on up there."

04:14:43.000 - 04:14:52.000

And I slowly taxied up to the hangar. And when I got close enough to see, everybody in Dallas was out there. Oh, everybody. I thought, "I'm too embarrassed.

04:14:52.000 - 04:14:59.000

I'm not going up there. I'm getting out of here, and I'm really going to run this time. I'm going to run the other way." And then I thought, "No, the plane's got a fence,

04:14:59.000 - 04:15:05.000

and there's water on the end of that airplane. I can't get out of here. They'll find me. I have to go on up there."

04:15:05.000 - 04:15:22.000

So I taxied on up to where all the people were, and I hadn't even turned the ignition off until somebody jumped on the side of the wing and up to the canopy, jerked back that canopy, stuck his head in front of me. Commanding officer.

04:15:22.000 - 04:15:31.000

"Oh!" I thought, "Oh, I'm dead. I'm dead." I probably nearly died when I saw him. All he could do was brag on me for getting down.

04:15:31.000 - 04:15:47.000

And I thought later, "I bet he was so glad I got down. It didn't happen on his watch. He didn't have to account for anything that went on." So he was really thrilled.

04:15:47.000 - 04:16:00.000

And so I carefully got out of the cockpit and told myself to pay attention, and I got off the wing without stumbling. I got down okay. Then I heard all these--even when I was in the cockpit--

04:16:00.000 - 04:16:13.000

I heard all these expletives, people talking all around. "Look at this," or "Look at this," and then looking at the tail and looking at the wing and then looking underneath the belly of the airplane was torn wide open.

04:16:13.000 - 04:16:25.000

There's where a lot of drag was. Right from the engine to sail, clear back to the tail wheel, like a can opener, ripping open. And do you know that if I had lost that tail wheel, I wouldn't be here.

04:16:25.000 - 04:16:41.000

I would have crashed into those airplanes. I could not have controlled that plane without a tail wheel. And I was thinking, you know, but for the sake of a link in a chain or something, you know how the stories go, one little thing will ruin your son.

04:16:41.000 - 04:16:58.000

That little tail wheel would have ruined me if it hadn't been there. But it was cut clear to the wheel, and the wheel was fine, and I had control. And then I heard all of this yakety-yak in front of the airplane. I thought, "What is wrong with the front of this airplane?"

04:16:58.000 - 04:17:18.000

I couldn't imagine. It has four blades of prop, one blade with this much missing. It had been melted off when I hit the power lines, and that much prop wasn't there. No wonder the thing was vibrating its head off.

04:17:18.000 - 04:17:38.000

If I had had any remote idea that the vibration was coming from the front engine and that propeller, I would have bailed out so fast it wouldn't have been any question. The engine would have come out. Any airplane but the P-47 would have lost the engine with that thing off-beat all the time it's going around.

04:17:38.000 - 04:17:51.000

And shaking it like it was, the whole engine would have fallen out. But on the other hand, if I had been in any airplane but the P-47, it never would have happened. Why? I could have seen. I could have seen what it was doing.

04:17:51.000 - 04:18:08.000

Even with the bad, bad haze it was, you could have seen. But the haze was so bad you really couldn't see half a block with the haze. It was just almost blind when I came in from haze. But I could see right straight down, and I swear, judging what I was seeing, right straight down.

04:18:08.000 - 04:18:26.000

But in any event, I may or may not have gotten out of there. But to think that that sturdy airplane kept the engine on it all the time. Then everybody started saying, "Oh, you need a drink. You need a drink. You're going to the officers' club. Come on. We're going to all get a drink."

04:18:26.000 - 04:18:40.000

Sure enough, we all go over to get a drink at the officers' club, and everybody there was nervous, and some of the girls were crying. And there was a big excitement going on, and everybody ordering their drinks. "Oh, what are you going to have?" "I'll have a Coke."

04:18:40.000 - 04:18:53.000

They said, "Oh, get out of here." [Laughter] "Right, Micah, get out of here." And sure enough, my mother lived there in Dallas then. Did I tell you about her teaching me drink training? I did.

04:18:53.000 - 04:19:17.000

Okay, she was living there in Dallas, and I told them, "I'm not going to my barracks. I'm going to go to her home, and somebody take me to her home because I want her to know I'm safe." Because she probably wouldn't know anything, but before she hears anything, she ought to see me. So I said, "Take me to her house," which they did.

04:19:17.000 - 04:19:32.000

I went in, "Oh, hello, Mother. Oh, hello. Well, come on in." She didn't know anything. She was glad to see me and all. And she said, "You know, there's been an airplane flying around here just all the time. It's been the noisiest night." [Laughter]

04:19:32.000 - 04:19:47.000

I said, "Yeah, I believe it was a noisy night," because I was doing a lot of circling while they were getting the lights and this and that, and I was doing tight circles right around that part of town too. She said, "Oh, there's just airplanes." She said, "Really?" [Laughter]

04:19:47.000 - 04:20:01.000

Oh, my goodness, the lights. >>Were you reprimanded, or did you have to meet a board? >>So, here. Now, what happened after that? See, I was so scared. Well, I was supposed to the next day or the next day and a half, I don't know,

04:20:01.000 - 04:20:24.000

but it was almost like next day, I was supposed to go to a pursuit school in Palm Springs. And I went right on schedule. When I was supposed to go, I had everything ready, and I took off and went to there. And then, right before I got out of that class, which was several weeks, I think,

04:20:24.000 - 04:20:45.000

I got the message that I was transferred to Long Beach. And I thought, "Oh, hallelujah. That's a blessing." A blessing for me. No one called me to the office to explain anything. To this day, I have never told any authority anything.

04:20:45.000 - 04:21:03.000

Now, what they do in the military a lot, when they don't know what to do with you, when it's not too bad and still there ought to be something or whatever, they transfer you. So, then I thought, "Oh, that's the easiest thing that could have happened to me. Hallelujah." And as it worked out, it was the best thing that could have happened to me.

04:21:03.000 - 04:21:17.000

I got out of administrative mess. I don't have to do that anymore. I got out and do all the flying. And then they took me at the very end of this pursuit class. Then they sent me right back in the next class.

04:21:17.000 - 04:21:38.000

So, I actually got double training to some extent there than others and thoroughly enjoyed it. And the second class I was in had four girls and about 50 men. And I really enjoyed that and learned all that everything. So, that was the best thing that could happen.

04:21:38.000 - 04:21:56.000

But never have I been called back to explain anything to anybody. I do not know what happened to the airplane, and I wouldn't dare ask. I didn't ask anything. I just kept quiet and got out of there. So, it just was a blessing what happened to me after that.

04:21:56.000 - 04:22:07.000

It was to my liking, very much to my liking. >> Eventually, you heard that the WASPs were going to be disbanded. >> Oh, yes. >> How did that make you feel?

04:22:07.000 - 04:22:23.000

>> Well, I was not too shocked about that. Why? Because when you get your thinking going, why were women used in the first place? They were needed. And why would they get rid of? They were not needed.

04:22:23.000 - 04:22:42.000

Now, why should they militarize us and give us jobs that were not needed? Just for the taxpayers to pay us while we sit around and maybe fly a couple of hours a month or something. And to me, from a straight logical point, that was not there. And I could see so much logic in it that I didn't get nervous about it.

04:22:42.000 - 04:22:59.000

Because we were war used, and if the war was going to be over, we were not needed. And the need wasn't there. Our job had just dissolved itself. And so I know that it was hurtful because you didn't want it to quit.

04:22:59.000 - 04:23:22.000

But if your logic would tell you you'd like for the war to quit, that wasn't too sharp to keep doing a war forever. But if there's no war, they don't need us. And then even before this time, I had taken airplanes out to the graveyard, out to Davis-Mauphin. And I had parked airplanes out there.

04:23:22.000 - 04:23:38.000

I don't remember what I took. I think it would be 25 or something I took out there. And, you know, they follow you when you land. There's a little jeep that says, "Follow me," on the back, and so you follow him. And he took me away off down over here into a strip clear out from nowhere.

04:23:38.000 - 04:23:55.000

And then he gives me the signal, cut it off. Well, what am I doing out here leaving an airplane when there wasn't anything around here? Well, see, we were already putting them out to pasture. Before they even got rid of us, they were going out to pasture.

04:23:55.000 - 04:24:12.000

Well, I'd already seen that, and I thought-- So that did not do to me what it did to some others. And, of course, one reason is that I had started from the beginning, and I'd already done a bunch, and I'd got my hands on everything, and so I'd kind of made the rounds.

04:24:12.000 - 04:24:36.000

And seeing the logic to it, I was calm about it. But now the girls that had their 35 hours and then got in school and barely graduated and then didn't get to do anything, oh, I could feel for them. But at the same time, the only reason they got free flying is because the need at the moment.

04:24:36.000 - 04:24:53.000

And there was no need anymore for the rest of it. So they were blessed with free flight time that they never would have gotten anywhere. And so I say winners all the way around. Now, see, the taxpayer didn't teach me to fly.

04:24:53.000 - 04:25:15.000

My father did on his own money. So there's a little difference. See, if the taxpayer trained all the girls in Sweetwater to fly, they got a free ride on learning to fly. And so if they never did get to do very much, then that is sad.

04:25:15.000 - 04:25:27.000

But look at the blessing they got free flying time. Where all of us who started didn't get free flying time at all. We did it on our own. And so I think that is what made it more calm for me.

04:25:27.000 - 04:25:40.000

I didn't think it was taking too much away from me, you see. And since I had already done some stuff, I wasn't denied. I hadn't been denied a lot. But I can see the girls in Sweetwater, the first classes and everything,

04:25:40.000 - 04:25:55.000

they felt denied and taken from because they expected more. And, of course, they did say they were going to militarize at one time. But I think we were better off not being militarized because look at the girls who could quit when they wanted to.

04:25:55.000 - 04:26:08.000

And that was a blessing. I know a girl when I was in pursuit training started flying those planes. She said, "This is not for me. It's not for me. I quit." And I said, "That's the best thing to do.

04:26:08.000 - 04:26:21.000

When you know it's not for you, quit while you're still ahead and while you're still walking. Don't go out and scare yourself and then maybe kill yourself." And so she quit. But see, if it was military, she could have done that.

04:26:21.000 - 04:26:45.000

When you were disbanded, did the air base at Long Beach do anything special for the WASPs? Well, I think they had some dinners or get-together at the last, but no. And everybody had to find his own ride home. Okay. How did you get home?

04:26:45.000 - 04:27:00.000

Oh, I got home just fine. I forgot. I got home just fine. It wasn't military. And then after you got home, then did you pick up dating? No, I was engaged to be married before I left.

04:27:00.000 - 04:27:16.000

He had gone overseas and done his thing. He came home. And when he came home, he was--oh, I forgot exactly when-- back in the middle of the year, he was ready for me to get married right then, saying I wanted to go on to finish.

04:27:16.000 - 04:27:39.000

And so I kept on, and I think he was glad to get me probably away from the airplanes. And I remember some of the writing to him, some of the last planes that I flew were P-38s. And I remember I had an emergency on the last ones that I flew. There was something wrong, either with the engine or whatever,

04:27:39.000 - 04:27:51.000

and I know one prop had a runaway prop on takeoff that I had to shut it down. Unfortunately, it got in okay. But little stuff like that, but I always told him everything, you know, if you thought you were lost or whatever.

04:27:51.000 - 04:28:07.000

And it didn't occur to me that he might be thinking, "Well, I hope you get out of there before you don't get out of there," you know. But I think that he had probably thought that. But in any event, he got back in here, and I got my engagement ring.

04:28:07.000 - 04:28:33.000

Let me tell you when I got my engagement ring. I was flying, had been to the East Coast somewhere, and he was back in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, head office for Phillips Petroleum, and was there, and I told him that I was coming through Tulsa at a certain hour.

04:28:33.000 - 04:28:45.000

I had taken an airline, I guess, from New York City, probably out there the way I was getting home that time, and I told him when I would be through there at Tulsa. And he already had my engagement ring,

04:28:45.000 - 04:29:01.000

which has some pretty nice-sized stones in them that look pretty good. So anyway, he met me at the airport at Tulsa when I landed for just a quickie stop to go on. And it was about 2 o'clock in the morning,

04:29:01.000 - 04:29:17.000

and he was there with my engagement ring. We went out the front door of the building and to the side under a big street light, big light there on the side of the building, and a great big shrub, and we were standing behind this shrub with the big street light,

04:29:17.000 - 04:29:37.000

and he gave me my engagement ring. And I remember it looked so pretty in the light, you know. And we had our little privacy behind this big shrub and everything. And then I had to go right back in and get on the airplane.

04:29:37.000 - 04:29:50.000

And so we told each other goodbye, and I got on the airplane and sat there, I guess, thinking about it, looking at my ring all the way to Los Angeles. I don't know. But it was about 2 o'clock in the morning.

04:29:50.000 - 04:29:55.000

Was it before you were disbanded? What was that? This was before you were-- Yeah, oh yeah, before.

04:29:55.000 - 04:30:01.000

Okay. This was before. So I had my engagement ring while I was still flying. Okay.

04:30:01.000 - 04:30:08.000

Then how long after you got out, before you got married? Right away. Right away. Tell me about your wedding real quick.

04:30:08.000 - 04:30:19.000

Yeah, we did. We married right away. So we've been married some time, very happily. So Chris always kids me.

04:30:19.000 - 04:30:31.000

He said, "If you pulled a dumber by marrying me, it's your own darn fault. You had plenty of opportunity." He said, "I don't feel sorry for you." Then after you were married--

04:30:31.000 - 04:30:41.000

Huh? After you were married, did you work after that? No, after I married for 10 years-- It's a good thing you bring this up because this is part of my life after that.

04:30:41.000 - 04:30:51.000

For about 10 years, I stayed at home. We had two girls, and I said, "If my kids are going to go with the dogs, I'm going to stay home with them. I'm going to send them to the dogs.

04:30:51.000 - 04:30:59.000

I don't want somebody else doing it." So I stayed home, and I still had my two years of college with Baylor. That's the last I had. So I was in Beaumont.

04:30:59.000 - 04:31:14.000

They had a four-year school there. I went back to school to finish my degree just because the school was there, not that I was going to do anything with it, but I thought it's dumb, plain dumb, not to get your college education while it's available because you might get transferred

04:31:14.000 - 04:31:30.000

where there's no four-year school, which is certainly true. So I remember calling him. He had charge of a whole bunch of oil wells in Louisiana and New Orleans and around that area, and I remember calling him.

04:31:30.000 - 04:31:36.000

He was out of town. "What should I do? Should I go back to school? Semester's going to start," and everything, and he was away from home.

04:31:36.000 - 04:31:55.000

He said, "Make up your own mind, but whatever you decide, I'll back you, whatever you decide." He said, "As long as we keep the same priorities that we had, I don't care. It's always been my priority is family first and everything second,

04:31:55.000 - 04:32:05.000

and the Lord and the family, and then everything else is second." He said, "If you have the time and energy, I don't care what you do. If you take your priorities first." I said, "Okay."

04:32:05.000 - 04:32:26.000

So I went back to school, and I was there just one semester, and the head of the College of Business said, "By golly, if you get your master's degree, I'll hold you a job till you come back here and teach for me." So for two and a half years, it would have been like that, but he held a job for me.

04:32:26.000 - 04:32:41.000

I took a full load of courses there while the kids went to school. When the kids went to school, then I said, "Okay, this semester is starting, and here's where I call Chris." Kids were in school all day.

04:32:41.000 - 04:32:55.000

Now, when I got to school, he said, "Do it." So I did, and I took a full load of courses, and once I got 21 hours in overload, kept my straight A's, I thought I was going to die. You had to have that course.

04:32:55.000 - 04:33:10.000

You know, for another year, they don't teach it and so forth and how long it goes. Well, I finished my junior/senior year in about two years then, and then I drove from Beaumont to Houston to work on my master's degree. It was the day that I'd go.

04:33:10.000 - 04:33:27.000

I did 4 o'clock in the morning, the fog and the traffic were out. And I got my master's degree over there with the intention of coming back and teaching in Beaumont. When I got to Houston, they said, "Oh, come teach for us, teach for us." I said, "Bologna on you guys."

04:33:27.000 - 04:33:40.000

I said, "I've got a man over here in Beaumont, and I'm going back to him. I'm not going to stay over here and teach for you guys," you know, kidding them and everything. Well, just as soon as I got my master's degree, what do you think? Chris got transferred to Houston.

04:33:40.000 - 04:33:51.000

I did not get to take the job he gave me for three years. I go back to Houston, and I go back to these-- I take back all those ugly things I said, fellas. I'd love to have a job over here.

04:33:51.000 - 04:34:05.000

And your master's degree was in what? Business, a master's in business. And sure enough, I got--they had one opening at the college. They had 35 applications for that, and they gave it to me.

04:34:05.000 - 04:34:12.000

Which college? Houston, in the College of Business. So I taught there. And then Chris got transferred.

04:34:12.000 - 04:34:31.000

Every time he'd get a promotion, it'd be a transfer, and so I'd lose my job. But it's all right; he was making three times what I was anyway. So I would--he moved to Big Spring, and I got there just at the right time. Somebody in the business department--that's the time I got there, mid-semester, and I got that job.

04:34:31.000 - 04:34:52.000

Every time I had gotten--and then we moved to Borger. He was transferred to Borger, and I was an add-on faculty member there. And I'll tell you, the Lord just opened up places each time that I went, just exactly when I needed it. And just--I'll tell you, it was a blessing because you could have been transferred.

04:34:52.000 - 04:35:11.000

I don't care how qualified you were. If there wasn't a hole in your specialty, you don't get it. And, you know, especially in smaller towns, there's not that many on the faculty. And like in Houston, no one was added to that faculty all the time I was there and many years after I left.

04:35:11.000 - 04:35:27.000

They replaced me, but not any add-on. See, if I hadn't gotten that job, I never would have gotten one there. And same thing in the other two places that I was. >>And as your children were growing up, Florine, what did you do to participate in their activities?

04:35:27.000 - 04:35:37.000

>>Oh, PTA. What else? Oh, I had a lot of home parties for them. And all the time they were in high school at the different towns we lived. And we lived in Big Spring.

04:35:37.000 - 04:35:54.000

We had--after every home football game, the whole football team came to our house. And we had girls that spent the night. We had--Chris said it looked like the Russian Army had come in here. The girls were on the floor everywhere.

04:35:54.000 - 04:36:09.000

They'd have to bring their pillows and their sleeping bags. But we'd run the boys off at--we had a limit of 1 o'clock, I think. We'd run the boys off. Then the girls would have their slumber party.

04:36:09.000 - 04:36:27.000

But I had all those people--I had the Coke Company to come out with great big containers of big iced-down Coke out on the patio. And I did all kinds of food. All night long, they graced on all kinds of food on the big table. We did this for several years while we lived there, all the big parties.

04:36:27.000 - 04:36:37.000

But the kids always had a place to bring their kids. And I don't know how I did all that. I was ashamed, too. I don't know how I did, but I've always had a lot of energy.

04:36:37.000 - 04:36:49.000

And I've always felt good. And I used to be efficient. Efficient anymore, I don't think. I don't need to--but then I was very efficient, because I intended to be and needed to be to get everything done.

04:36:49.000 - 04:37:06.000

And I could very well be very efficient. So I did a lot of things for them. They had a place to come and be entertained and bring their kids. And they were on swimming teams when we were in Houston.

04:37:06.000 - 04:37:17.000

We did a lot there for the swimming teams that they were on. And-- So your family still came first. Always, always.

04:37:17.000 - 04:37:35.000

And I'm sure that that is what has kept us together as well. Because Chris never has felt neglected, and the kids haven't felt neglected. But Chris has always told me, "Whatever you have time and energy to do, I don't care what it is, I'll back you. You do it.

04:37:35.000 - 04:37:43.000

Your priority is first. You know where priority is." At the present time, what are you involved with to keep busy? Well, okay.

04:37:43.000 - 04:38:02.000

Well, back up. The things that I did on the side here, we have had a lot of rental property that I have taken care of. A lot of it. And also I have gotten a--when I was in Beaumont, I was a National Flower Show judge,

04:38:02.000 - 04:38:15.000

which means you had to do a lot of horticulture, win a lot of blue ribbons and flower arranging and all that kind of stuff. There's a lot of rules. So I got that. Then I have been an insurance salesperson.

04:38:15.000 - 04:38:37.000

I have been a mutual fund salesperson. I have been a water safety instructor and instructed instructors in that. I've been a test cook for Betty Crocker for about 15 years. And I've also paid a lot of attention to health, a lot of attention to health.

04:38:37.000 - 04:39:02.000

So I have kind of had my finger in a lot of different kind of activities. But I did all this while I was still paying attention to the girls. And then when they got married, we had big weddings, and I made a bunch of stuff on the wedding and everything, you know, top hats and all the stuff.

04:39:02.000 - 04:39:26.000

Men rented those, of course, but I'm talking about the girls' things and the brides' whatever. I've made a lot of ball gowns for the girls, a lot of formals, sequins and satin and tails and, you know, all that kind of mess. >> So that home economics course came in handy. >> Oh, yeah.

04:39:26.000 - 04:39:38.000

Well, now, my mother taught me stuff. Home economics didn't teach me that much. I had already gotten it under my belt before the home economics got there. But I have made a lot of clothes for me and for the girls.

04:39:38.000 - 04:39:48.000

I used to dress a slack when we were little. That was supposed to be in style, you know, and I'd make up patterns and all. I did all my maternity clothes. I made my own patterns that didn't have anything that looked like anything on the market.

04:39:48.000 - 04:40:05.000

So I did those. And I made clothes for the girls all the time. But I got to where I would not make anything that was not expensive or they couldn't find. Now, the things that were ordinary kind of school clothes or something they could find, I wouldn't mess with it.

04:40:05.000 - 04:40:21.000

I would spend my time on the hard things or the expensive things. And so I made, you know, lined suits and satin gowns and fluffy gowns. And there was a time that the girls would wear four or five petticoats. Remember that era?

04:40:21.000 - 04:40:32.000

Oh, I'm telling you what, we would iron our clothes. Our iron never got cold in the utility room before we went to school. Everybody's clothes would be ironed. They were in the era before blue jeans.

04:40:32.000 - 04:40:45.000

They never wore blue jeans to school, see, and never any of this easy stuff. And when I sewed, it was any of this sack look. It was always a fitted look. Everything was fitted for me.

04:40:45.000 - 04:40:55.000

Just exactly the little darts and the tucks just in the right places, the hards. But now that it's easy to do, I don't want to do it. I'm not even messing with it. I can do that.

04:40:55.000 - 04:41:06.000

I don't want to. I don't even want to alter anything. Perfectly capable, but I don't want to do it. Let me ask you, all the things you have ever done, and you've done an awful lot,

04:41:06.000 - 04:41:23.000

what is the one thing that you're most proud of? Okay, I guess the thing that I've enjoyed or glad I have, and that is the many, many hours of Bible classes I've had and taken, and of course I've passed in Bible,

04:41:23.000 - 04:41:37.000

because that's more of lasting value to you than anything else you have done. But as far as the other doing a bunch of stuff, I don't know. I guess it's fun. I guess I'd rather have done that than all of the ass I did here.

04:41:37.000 - 04:41:48.000

But going back to school was a hard row. I'm telling you, I cannot tell you the number of nights I never went to bed, never went to bed at all. You will do what your body will allow.

04:41:48.000 - 04:42:15.000

And that's how I went right straight through school, summers and school years, to get everything I needed for a master's degree. So that was a pushy time, a real time that I had to be efficient and pushy at that time. If you could say something to your grandchildren or children in the future,

04:42:15.000 - 04:42:32.000

generations, that might encourage them, give them hope, what would you like to say to them? Well, I would say to them, do not value your ability. You have ability that you haven't had a chance to use.

04:42:32.000 - 04:42:45.000

Now find something you want to use it on and then get after it. And if it doesn't come out quite like what you want to, don't get upset about that. Try something else. But don't sit back and think, "Oh, I'm just not very capable.

04:42:45.000 - 04:43:01.000

I don't believe I could do that." Don't look at something and say, "I don't believe I could do that," if you really want to do that. Get a shot, who knows, maybe not really jumping something that was completely over your head.

04:43:01.000 - 04:43:13.000

But I think most times that something like in today's world now that you can see there are avenues you could go in to try. If it appealed to you, go try it. But don't get discouraged if you don't like it.

04:43:13.000 - 04:43:29.000

Now teaching college 30 years, as I did, I saw students changing majors and everything like this. Get into something. If you see you don't like it, don't spend your life in there. Get the heck out and do something else.

04:43:29.000 - 04:43:51.000

And many times college graduates don't sell what their major is. Get into something else and sell something else that they are capable of doing. But I would say to tell them to keep their relationship with the Lord first and foremost. And then I would say get out and try anything that you might want to try.

04:43:51.000 - 04:44:02.000

Take care of your body. Take care of your health. Do not neglect your health. My last question to you, everybody has good times and they have bad times.

04:44:02.000 - 04:44:16.000

They have happy times and sad times. What has gotten you those bad times and those sad times? The Lord and good relationship with my family. If you have a good relationship, you know, you can commiserate together,

04:44:16.000 - 04:44:28.000

you can suck your thumb together, you can cry together, you can do all of that with the Lord's help. Things aren't really as bad. But yourself, sitting out here by yourself, nobody cares. And you know they do or don't really care.

04:44:28.000 - 04:44:41.000

That's hurtful. You can have a lot harder time. But I wouldn't say go out and get married just because you want somebody to be with you. I mean you better be doggone careful with that, very careful that you are compatible there.

04:44:41.000 - 04:45:00.000

But if you happen to have that and have a family that's compatible, then you can rely on them. As I say, you can commiserate when your bad time comes. They can help you through. Maybe they love the Lord too, they can help you pray through.

04:45:00.000 - 04:45:16.000

And besides that, all of us are like it. There are many years ahead that may not be nearly as good as years ahead. And so you've got to have the prayerful and the stamina and the fortitude and the spiritual guts to get through that. So you don't know what's coming.

04:45:16.000 - 04:45:24.000

You have a truly wonderful life. Thank you for sharing it with your generation. You're quite welcome. I love to share it and everything.

04:45:24.000 - 04:45:33.000

And for the WASP, it was a great period of my time in their life, it really was. Thank you very much. You are awesome. Thank you.

04:45:33.000 - 04:45:37.000

I just want to say that I'll take it. I'm awful. You're awesome. Oh, thank you.

04:45:37.000 - 04:45:42.000

I'm taking this as a compliment and I don't know. Absolutely. It went the other way.