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I missed the whole thing. Oh, well, it got quite spirited. And Mary Helen's a very lovely... She was in, what, 44?

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She was before us, maybe three. Anyway, but she got up and said, "There are a lot of WASPs who can't come because they don't have

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the financial means." What's today? Uh, the 12th. I'm Deanie Parrish.

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We're in the home of Betty Shipley in San Antonio, Texas. It's May 12, 2001. Betty?

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My name is Elizabeth Williamson Shipley. I was born in Zamboanga, Philippine Islands.

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And many old-timers will remember uh, Zamboanga because many of them were out there

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during the war. And my father was in private business. I was born on October 4, 1916. And what was

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your father's business, Betty? My father was in cattle. We had a copra business

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and a lumber business out there. He was a very busy man. They entertained beautifully

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and I feel very fortunate with the life I've had. Right. Did you have siblings? Yes.

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Tell me about that. My mother came all the way home to Tarboro, North Carolina so my oldest brother could be born in the United States. She crossed the Pacific

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Ocean eight times and was deathly ill each time. But, my brother Frank was born in the United States.

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The rest of us were born in Zamboanga. We didn't seem to matter. But we are American citizens. It took me a long time to be convinced

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that I wasn't a Filipino. Tell me your very first remembrances. Where were you living?

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We were living in Zamboanga in the big house, which the Japanese used during the war. The

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downstairs was practically a gymnasium. The upstairs was beautiful. We had orchids all along the

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balcony there. And then there was a creek and across from that creek was the military base, which my father

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owned most of that land. General and Mrs. Pershing gave a breakfast dinner for my mom and dad when they were

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married out there. Was your dad Filipino? No. Was he born in the Philippines? No.

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I'm a generation behind most of the WASP, I think. My father was a Spanish-American

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war veteran. He fought out there. He went to Wake Forest in North Carolina

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and volunteered to fight out there. And then he stayed out there. He was a young man. He and his partner. And built

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quite an empire at one time. And how did he meet your mother? Well, that's a long story.

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My mother had a sister who was gorgeous. Not that my mother wasn't gorgeous. She was a family of four girls and one boy.

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And her sister Reba had very famous people courting her.

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And she thought she was going to marry my dad. And he came home and

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dated her and then he went back. She had refused him, but she said he would be back. But he

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didn't come back. And my mother was engaged to I can't think of his name right now. A very prominent author.

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And he died and she went out to the Philippines. Because my uncle was an Episcopal minister out there. Married to

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her sister. And she knew my dad. And they fell in love out there. And she married him out there.

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And his her sister never forgave her. She never married. In

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the Philippines did you start school in the Philippines? No. My two brothers, my two older

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brothers went to Bishop Brent School up in Baguio. And when I got to be seven there wasn't anywhere for

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me to go to school. And that's when they decided to bring me to the States. And my mother

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brought me and my two older brothers to Hollywood to live with my father's niece and her husband. And

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then my mother went back. My younger brother was too young to come. And we stayed there a year hoping my dad would

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wind up his business. Which they didn't do. And so we were sent off to North Carolina.

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I mean not North Carolina, to Florida where my uncle lived, my father's brother. And my

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aunt, another sister, was a very famous horse woman. She was the first woman to play polo. She also

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was an avid hunter. And she was the one I married to Episcopal minister. But they

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put... I'm sorry. During that first seven years when you were in the Philippines did you come to the States on

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vacation at any time? No. Not in those days. No. Where were your grandparents at that point? North Carolina. I didn't know my

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grandparents. Okay. What are your first remembrances of living in the Philippines? Do you

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remember before you were seven? Did you have playmates? Do you remember any of those? I don't really

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remember. I mean we each had a maid to stay with us. Someone who took care of us. We had a seamstress who came to the house and made clothes.

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Everything was taken care of. When you came to the States when you were seven how did you get to the States?

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On a boat. Do you recall anything about that? Just that my brothers could beat anybody in Mahjong.

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They were very well trained. We did play Mahjong even when I was very little. And

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when you got to Hollywood then you and your two brothers lived with your aunt. How did

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you feel? Do you remember when your mother left to go back? I really don't remember.

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She had two children of her own. I just remembered they got after me all the time because I was trying to fly off of the bed

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jumping up and down. I didn't always obey orders. And I later

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learned from a cousin of mine that had some letters from my step grandmother you might say that my dad

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had written when I was about five years old because I was the first girl that she was very determined. A little

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girl. And that stuck with me. I only learned that about ten years ago when he read this letter to me. Tell me

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about going to school when you started school in Hollywood. I really don't remember too much about that. I remember when my

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mother finally did come and bring my younger brother what a time he had with the language. She'd go to school with him every day.

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But I really don't remember. I did well in school. I loved school. The aunt and the uncle that you lived

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with, they had two children also? Yes. He was a doctor. He was the first doctor and lawyer in that county.

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Do you remember how you were treated in that family? I was treated fine

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but I didn't need a lot of discipline apparently. From the time your mother left you there, how long was it

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before you saw her again? Two years. In the meantime you had started school. Yes. We had been shipped

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down to Florida. After a year there. My father did pay money for us at that time

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to stay. When you went to Florida, then you changed schools and went to another school. Do you remember any of your playmates

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when you were in Florida? Or do you remember any of your teachers when you were very young? No.

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Not until I settled down. Finally settled down. I was put in a private school down there

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in Florida. Up in Tallulah Falls, Georgia. I don't know why. Maybe I didn't get along with someone

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or something. I don't know. But I do remember I went to school there and then I can remember

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my dad coming to get me. He always wore white suits and I never was so happy to see anyone in my life.

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It had been two years since I'd seen my family and he had come back to get us and settle in California away from

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relatives in North Carolina. When you went to this private school, did your brothers go also? No.

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So when you left, then you left Florida and went back to California? Yes. When my dad came home and

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he'd finished up his business out there. Then where did you live in California? In Fontana, which was a little town of people who

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lived all over the world like my family had. I was in the fourth grade. I had a teacher, Miss Marshall,

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whom I worshipped. I did very well. This is funny that you should remember something like this.

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I couldn't spell the word hammer right. It was the only word I misspelled the whole time I was in the fourth grade, which was kind of silly.

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No, I wanted to be first. I was brought up you try and do your best and be the best.

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When you were going to school, how did you get to school? Did you live a long way from the school or did you walk?

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In Fontana? We took a bus. We could walk home. I used to walk home a lot of times cutting through the orange groves

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and things just for fun to walk home. I was never afraid like I would be today. It was

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really wonderful growing up there. It was a small town. Everybody knew you. There were the same kind of people

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my people were. Do you remember any of the games you played when you were a child? That's when we settled in Fontana.

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We always played stealing dry goods. We always had a house full of people.

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My family believed in family and friends. Stealing dry goods, we had a big lawn

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in the front and there's a line in the center. You had so many sticks on your side and this side. You had a team.

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Then you'd blow a whistle and this side would have a chance to get over on the other side and steal a stick and get back over. Then we'd have a big watermelon

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feast. I hated watermelon but we had it. It was a very wonderful family. We played cards together

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and you couldn't ask for a better home life. My father invested in chickens. I never grated

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so many eggs in my life. We got 25 cents a day. He kept a ledger on it but we had to work to earn some

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money. Did you keep the chickens? Were you living out of town? We had a big orange grove

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and there was a section for chickens back in the back. A funny story, one of my brothers had a rooster called General.

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You know they have spikes on them kind of and you'd never want to get in there where General was because he'd come over and spur you with these spikes.

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We did grate eggs. We grated eggs and they came twice a week. Golly, I haven't thought about this in a million years.

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We picked those eggs up twice a week. Then what did you do with your money? We had to put some of it in the bank.

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Tell me about your grandparents. I didn't know my grandparents very much. I met them. I never

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met Pops and Goody who were my mother's family. My father

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and mother died soon after they were born. There were four boys and

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he married. He was a captain in the Confederacy, I guess you'd say in the South.

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I remember going back there quite a number of years ago to visit an aunt of mine and went out to the

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cemetery and there was a great big headstone from my grandmother. My real grandmother. Then there's this little tiny

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headstone and then there's another great big headstone. I said, "What's that little tiny headstone?" He'd married someone else too

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but they didn't have any children. She passed away. Then he married Grandma Ella as we called her who was my step-grandmother.

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I did know her and her children. They were all boys which was wonderful. Where did they live? In Raleigh,

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North Carolina. Betty, what was a Christmas like in your home growing up? I was scared to death of Santa Claus

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in the Philippines. I used to yell and scream. They'd have to take me outside. I really tried to believe in him

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until I was 14. When I got over the fear of him, I guess you might say. How did

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your family celebrate Christmas? Just like every family, we had presents and we hung up a

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stocking and we still hung up stockings until we were 14 years old. You had an orange and an apple and

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some surprises in it. I haven't thought about this in a million years. We did this

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with our grandchildren. Do you remember one special Christmas where you got something special? Tell me about it.

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I got a skirt with pleats all the way around it. I don't remember what they called them, but that was a very special Christmas present.

00:15:00.000 - 00:15:10.000

Something I wanted very badly. Growing up, I know that you were involved in church. Tell me about anything special

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that would happen at your church to celebrate Christmas. Well, in

00:15:18.000 - 00:15:26.000

Fontana, we went to the Congressional Church. We would go to Riverside very often because my

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cousin was the Episcopal minister there. They called him the Flying Parson. He drove so fast. You want to know what?

00:15:38.000 - 00:15:46.000

About any kind of Christmas celebration at church. Did they have pageants? Oh yes, we always had

00:15:46.000 - 00:15:54.000

pageants. And candlelight services. Yes. When you were

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in school, what kind of what were your ambitions? I wanted

00:16:02.000 - 00:16:10.000

to be a teacher from the time I was a little girl. Do you know what

00:16:10.000 - 00:16:18.000

made you want to be a teacher? I really don't know, but every teacher I had after I got

00:16:18.000 - 00:16:26.000

to the United States, I used to go you might say I was a teacher's pet. But I would

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there was one in particular and her husband became the superintendent out at Beverly Hills eventually. But

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when I finished the fourth grade, I would come back the next year to help her set up, although I was

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going to fifth grade. And I'll always remember her. And that's just what I wanted to do until I

00:16:50.000 - 00:16:58.000

about flying what finally set me off on flying. I don't know if you've ever been to Riverside, California.

00:16:58.000 - 00:17:06.000

It's a beautiful town, or it used to be. It's overcrowded now. But as you enter the city, there's a bridge that goes over there

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and there's a stream. And I think I was about 13 or 14 years old. And this man was going

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to fly under that with his wife standing in the middle of the bridge. And we went to that.

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And I was so impressed that he would do that. And he got out, I mean he flew underneath it and survived.

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And here she was standing on top of that bridge. And it made a terrific thought in my mind that

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I thought maybe I would like to do that. I'd like to fly. Something that would really challenge you. And that's when the desire

00:17:48.000 - 00:17:56.000

to fly and then of course later on when my brother became a Navy pilot it was, my brothers went to Cal Tech

00:17:56.000 - 00:18:04.000

for school. But my younger brother, when we first, when he first came to the States, when we settled in California, my mother went to school

00:18:04.000 - 00:18:12.000

with him every day because of a language problem. We all spoke it's really Spanish, but you call it Chibucano English in a way.

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And What was your favorite subject in school? Everything.

00:18:20.000 - 00:18:28.000

I just loved it. The whole thing. When you finished sixth grade did you then go to a different school?

00:18:28.000 - 00:18:36.000

Or stay in the same school? No, we stayed in the same school. I think a tragic thing that happened around that time

00:18:36.000 - 00:18:44.000

we took a bus I haven't thought of this in years. And I saw a youngster killed. The bus squeezed in

00:18:44.000 - 00:18:52.000

and he didn't move. And that made a horrible memory there. That and the fact

00:18:52.000 - 00:19:00.000

I couldn't figure out you know, am I Filipino or am I an American? You know, they'd say, well you're a Filipino

00:19:00.000 - 00:19:08.000

and then we'd play this stealing dry goods and stuff and sometimes you had to give a different word and I'd I'd name names that they never heard of.

00:19:08.000 - 00:19:16.000

Different kind of fruits and stuff. They didn't know anything about them. But my dad

00:19:16.000 - 00:19:24.000

was a very wise man and of course had registered all as American citizens. But we had a problem later on when one of my

00:19:24.000 - 00:19:32.000

brothers was going with his company down to Argentina. He could not get a passport because he's born in the Philippines.

00:19:32.000 - 00:19:40.000

And I sent in my passport that I was accepted. I was a military wife. My older brother sent in his

00:19:40.000 - 00:19:48.000

passport, my younger brother. But it took my dad some strings to pull to get him a passport.

00:19:48.000 - 00:19:56.000

Which I didn't quite, I never did quite solve that. But it's who you know sometimes. As you were growing

00:19:56.000 - 00:20:08.000

up, how did you spend your vacations? When I was growing up I really never thought how we spent vacations.

00:20:08.000 - 00:20:16.000

We grated eggs, we worked. And we went on church, little trips with church.

00:20:16.000 - 00:20:24.000

Went to the beach every summer for a month. I loved to swim in the ocean. Would your mother and dad go to the beach

00:20:24.000 - 00:20:32.000

with you? My mother would. She swam in the ocean every day in the Philippines and I think that's why she lived so long.

00:20:32.000 - 00:20:40.000

And when you would go to the beach where would you live? We rented a house. Was that something you looked

00:20:40.000 - 00:20:48.000

forward to? Oh yeah. Still even when I was growing up. Down at Laguna Beach.

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You can't even get a room for less than about $200 a day. It's all gone up.

00:20:56.000 - 00:21:04.000

As you went on into high school what were you involved in in high school? Everything athletic.

00:21:04.000 - 00:21:12.000

All the sports. Were you on teams? Yes. Tell me about one of those teams. Hockey.

00:21:12.000 - 00:21:20.000

Tennis. Golf. My mother was, it amazed me

00:21:20.000 - 00:21:28.000

for such a lady to be a terrific golfer. And a terrific tennis player. Her sister

00:21:28.000 - 00:21:36.000

was the first woman to play polo. I mean it was a family of

00:21:36.000 - 00:21:44.000

wide variety of wonderful opportunities and things you had to live up to.

00:21:44.000 - 00:21:52.000

I felt I had to live up and do my part. How about competition with your brothers?

00:21:52.000 - 00:22:00.000

Well, usually I could keep one on my side but when all three of them would get mad I didn't stand a prayer.

00:22:00.000 - 00:22:08.000

But usually we'd have fights. One time I let all the air out of their bicycle tires because I got mad at them.

00:22:08.000 - 00:22:16.000

I don't know, I don't remember what they did but they did something to me. We got along fine.

00:22:16.000 - 00:22:24.000

Do you remember any special friends that you had in high school? Yes. I still am very close

00:22:24.000 - 00:22:32.000

to a woman who lives in Scottsdale. And when I go out to Arizona I always go see her. Is there

00:22:32.000 - 00:22:40.000

anything that you did in high school that stands out as a memory for you that affected your life?

00:22:40.000 - 00:22:52.000

No, I really had a happy time in high school. How about any teacher in high school that might have been an influence? Well, I think my biology teacher,

00:22:52.000 - 00:23:00.000

Mrs. Newman was one. And Ms. Hawkins told me I'd never

00:23:00.000 - 00:23:08.000

get through Latin. Never get through. What was it? And how did that make you feel? Well, she was always picking

00:23:08.000 - 00:23:16.000

on me. But we became very good friends really and I passed. I got Julius Caesar over the Alps or wherever

00:23:16.000 - 00:23:24.000

he was going at that point in time. I don't really remember but I did. But I think more people ought to take Latin. These days it's a good basis

00:23:24.000 - 00:23:32.000

for a language. Did her attitude telling you, making you feel like you couldn't pass, did that just make you more

00:23:32.000 - 00:23:40.000

determined? Yes. And I wish I'd instilled that in one of my sons because he flunked English just because he didn't like

00:23:40.000 - 00:23:48.000

the teacher. And I said that would have made me work all the harder. I mean he could easily do it

00:23:48.000 - 00:23:56.000

but he just didn't like her. And I hate to see that. In high school, did you have a favorite subject

00:23:56.000 - 00:24:04.000

in high school? What were your ambitions as a teacher? What did you want to teach? I wanted to

00:24:04.000 - 00:24:12.000

teach little children. I didn't want my credential when I graduated was from kindergarten through

00:24:12.000 - 00:24:20.000

junior high school. What were some of your social activities when you were in high school?

00:24:20.000 - 00:24:28.000

Oh, all the parties. Tell me about some of those parties. You don't want to really know about some of those parties. They were just like any

00:24:28.000 - 00:24:36.000

other party. I was going steady with a boy in high school. And then he went away to college

00:24:36.000 - 00:24:44.000

and I went away to college. And I never really met the man I thought I wanted to love. I remember in college

00:24:44.000 - 00:24:52.000

this one fellow I was dating. I'll never forget this. I love gardenias. Most people do.

00:24:52.000 - 00:25:00.000

And he gave me a wreath of gardenias for the ball. And I cried because all I could think of

00:25:00.000 - 00:25:08.000

was a racehorse gets gardenia laid around his neck when he wins. And that didn't set very

00:25:08.000 - 00:25:18.000

well with him but I always do remember that. Tell me about your high school prom. It was very

00:25:18.000 - 00:25:26.000

closely watched that you didn't dance too closely together. But it was fun. At that point

00:25:26.000 - 00:25:36.000

did you have a steady boyfriend? Uh-huh. Talk about your graduation. We went

00:25:36.000 - 00:25:44.000

four of us, two couples of us went into the Biltmore in Los Angeles. Of course you couldn't drink.

00:25:44.000 - 00:25:52.000

We didn't drink anyway but we weren't old enough if we had drunk. And went to the

00:25:52.000 - 00:26:00.000

Biltmore for dinner. And that was a big thing in those days to drive way into Los Angeles

00:26:00.000 - 00:26:08.000

and go. But I do remember and I had a beautiful dress. My mother bought it in Bullocks, Wilshire and

00:26:08.000 - 00:26:16.000

it was just great. What kind of student were you in high school? I was a good student but I had two brothers ahead of me

00:26:16.000 - 00:26:24.000

who were brilliant. So I had to be pretty good. So do you think it was the competition between you?

00:26:24.000 - 00:26:32.000

Very competitive. I was brought up very competitive. When you graduated from high school

00:26:32.000 - 00:26:42.000

what made you decide on the college that you went to? Well my family couldn't afford to send me

00:26:42.000 - 00:26:50.000

to well there was a private school, Episcopal School that I would have liked to have gone to

00:26:50.000 - 00:26:58.000

but they couldn't afford to send me there at that point in time because they had both boys going to Cal Tech and

00:26:58.000 - 00:27:06.000

of course my younger brother coming along and so I worked and they could afford to send me

00:27:06.000 - 00:27:14.000

to Santa Barbara was a state school so it wasn't as expensive but the last in my senior year they were

00:27:14.000 - 00:27:22.000

becoming the University of California at Santa Barbara like the University of California at San Diego and all that.

00:27:22.000 - 00:27:30.000

How far away from home were you when you went to school? We took a bus. I had a car which was

00:27:30.000 - 00:27:38.000

exceptional. I had a little Austin and the fellas took it one day at school and put it up on the landing

00:27:38.000 - 00:27:46.000

of the building so when I came out to go home I couldn't go home. They were playing and they still talk about that when I go to the

00:27:46.000 - 00:27:54.000

reunions. Remember your car we put up there? And I said yes I do and I had to get somebody to get that thing down so I could

00:27:54.000 - 00:28:02.000

get home but they were always doing stuff like that to me. I don't know I just had fun. Good fun.

00:28:02.000 - 00:28:10.000

And what was your major in college? Elementary. Elementary.

00:28:10.000 - 00:28:18.000

Do you remember anything outstanding that happened when you were those first two years in college?

00:28:18.000 - 00:28:26.000

Did you meet anybody special at that point? No I really wasn't looking for anybody. I was just having a good

00:28:26.000 - 00:28:34.000

time and I realized that I brought too much stuff from home that I really didn't need. It's taken me

00:28:34.000 - 00:28:42.000

a long time to learn that you don't take everything you own when you're going somewhere. Even now when I take a trip I still take too much.

00:28:42.000 - 00:28:50.000

No I had a wonderful time. I just I feel very fortunate and I

00:28:50.000 - 00:28:58.000

did date a bunch of fellas from Cal Tech and there was one I went with for a long time

00:28:58.000 - 00:29:06.000

and we almost eloped but I got scared at the last and

00:29:06.000 - 00:29:18.000

he arrived over there at San Bernardino one day he knew where I did my work in the summer and

00:29:18.000 - 00:29:26.000

then he arrived at the beach one night when he knew where we stayed but I don't

00:29:26.000 - 00:29:34.000

know he finally married someone else but he still came around but I didn't want to marry him

00:29:34.000 - 00:29:42.000

and I didn't want anybody to have a divorce or anything like that. When you finished two years

00:29:42.000 - 00:29:50.000

at that school then what did you do? What do you mean? I went four years. I graduated.

00:29:50.000 - 00:29:58.000

It's beautiful but it's like every place else in California. I rode horseback, jumpers

00:29:58.000 - 00:30:06.000

I was very interested in that and swimming, very interested in that

00:30:06.000 - 00:30:14.000

everything athletic I loved. I loved the outdoors mainly the ocean. If you've ever been swimming in the ocean and

00:30:14.000 - 00:30:22.000

surfing, there's nothing that can take the place of that except flying an airplane and skiing which I did.

00:30:22.000 - 00:30:30.000

In the summers when you were going to college then what did you do during the summers? I worked. Tell me about your job.

00:30:30.000 - 00:30:40.000

Same job over in the county recorder's office in San Bernardino. I learned to type quite well but I still can't send email

00:30:40.000 - 00:30:48.000

either. I have a mess with my computer but I'll get back to it. Then you graduated from college

00:30:48.000 - 00:30:56.000

and then what did you do? I got married. I mean no I didn't get married. I taught

00:30:56.000 - 00:31:04.000

in Burbank. I got this job that was outstanding. It was a demonstration school. In the

00:31:04.000 - 00:31:12.000

first year I had people from different countries come to observe my teaching which was a big honor as far as I was concerned

00:31:12.000 - 00:31:20.000

and the first unit I was doing was on Japan and we built a little house and talked about their type

00:31:20.000 - 00:31:28.000

of living and everything and built a little thing we had. It was just a marvelous place.

00:31:28.000 - 00:31:36.000

Anything you wanted you could get and have. I loved it. And I was there when I found out about

00:31:36.000 - 00:31:44.000

the WASP. And what grade were you teaching? When I first went there in California you could not teach first grade

00:31:44.000 - 00:31:52.000

until you taught in the lower grades. Three years because it was considered a very important grade

00:31:52.000 - 00:32:00.000

and now today they take anybody in the first grade which I think is a big mistake because it is such an important grade

00:32:00.000 - 00:32:08.000

for children in many ways. I taught a combination second

00:32:08.000 - 00:32:16.000

and third grade that first year. And then I told them that I

00:32:16.000 - 00:32:24.000

had applied for the WASP and if I was successful that I would have to leave and I still have the letter

00:32:24.000 - 00:32:34.000

from the superintendent how sorry they'd be and they would save me a place when I got back. Tell me where you were

00:32:34.000 - 00:32:42.000

when you heard about Pearl Harbor and how that affected you. I was in a classroom with my little children and we listened to it.

00:32:42.000 - 00:32:50.000

And I think of that every time I hear it. I heard it the other night. We listened to that in school and we talked about

00:32:50.000 - 00:33:00.000

it some. How did Pearl Harbor affect your family? Well,

00:33:00.000 - 00:33:08.000

I guess just like any other family you wanted to do something for your country. My mother and father were devout

00:33:08.000 - 00:33:16.000

Democrats coming from the south but when they moved to California they became very active Republicans. And that was one of the questions

00:33:16.000 - 00:33:24.000

I remembered when I was interviewed for a job. Was that Democrat or Republican? And I said I was a Republican

00:33:24.000 - 00:33:36.000

and they said, "Why?" I said, "Because my mom and dad are Republicans." But I am a Republican. I still have been a Republican.

00:33:36.000 - 00:33:44.000

Just like I'm a born Episcopalian. I guess you might say. I don't know.

00:33:44.000 - 00:33:52.000

But I do love politics. It runs in my family. Betty, how did the war affect

00:33:52.000 - 00:34:00.000

America and the American people? What changed? Well,

00:34:00.000 - 00:34:08.000

I don't think the American people, I mean this is just my own personal opinion, and I know at that time gasoline

00:34:08.000 - 00:34:16.000

and my brother came and Madge had married and we lived together and we'd play

00:34:16.000 - 00:34:24.000

cards and all that stuff when he was there and you had trouble getting meat. You had a coupon and gasoline and all that.

00:34:24.000 - 00:34:32.000

But really, nylon stockings. But that was nothing compared to what the people who were actually were bombed had to give up.

00:34:32.000 - 00:34:40.000

I don't think America has ever had to give up as much. Living on the West Coast, of course you were always

00:34:40.000 - 00:34:48.000

afraid of being attacked out there. It was a feeling I had. You had to draw blinds and things as I vaguely remember.

00:34:48.000 - 00:34:56.000

But, I mean, the United States was all together. You wanted to do

00:34:56.000 - 00:35:04.000

something for your country. And what did your family do? What did my family do? Your brothers?

00:35:04.000 - 00:35:12.000

Well, one of my brothers applied to West Point and he was accepted

00:35:12.000 - 00:35:20.000

and then when they tested him he was colorblind. So he couldn't do that. But he went into the Army Air Corps. He was a statistical officer.

00:35:20.000 - 00:35:28.000

My other brother was an electrical engineer, but he did not go because he had four children and he worked

00:35:28.000 - 00:35:36.000

with big companies developing airplanes and all that thing. And where I taught,

00:35:36.000 - 00:35:44.000

that was another thing. P.E. Heidel, I had his little boy in class. He was the original test pilot on the P-38

00:35:44.000 - 00:35:52.000

and he would fly over the playground all the time. And that instills more into you when I stop and think about

00:35:52.000 - 00:36:00.000

all the people I knew who were so involved with airplanes and things.

00:36:00.000 - 00:36:08.000

And how did you first get interested in learning to fly? I know going under the bridge

00:36:08.000 - 00:36:16.000

Under the bridge was a big thing and then my brother whose name was Bev and when he got married his wife wanted it changed to Bill.

00:36:16.000 - 00:36:24.000

But his influence How did he influence you? How did he influence you?

00:36:24.000 - 00:36:32.000

Well he'd talk about it and what he did it made me want to he went up

00:36:32.000 - 00:36:40.000

spent his money taking flying lessons when he was very young. And I don't know, I just wanted

00:36:40.000 - 00:36:48.000

there was something I just wanted to do. It was a challenge. I didn't know whether I could do it or not.

00:36:48.000 - 00:36:56.000

How did your mom and dad feel about that? Uh they supported me 100%

00:36:56.000 - 00:37:04.000

and then when it was all over my mother said that she was scared to death the whole time but my mother would never interfere she would

00:37:04.000 - 00:37:12.000

back you to the hill if she believed that that was right for you. And tell me about when you first started

00:37:12.000 - 00:37:20.000

taking flying lessons. How did you get to the airfield and how did you select an instructor?

00:37:20.000 - 00:37:28.000

I don't know how I selected an instructor someone I knew, I had my own car and you go out to Blythe, California in the summer and it's 128

00:37:28.000 - 00:37:36.000

degrees. But I had to go then because I wasn't in you know school, I got time off in the summer

00:37:36.000 - 00:37:44.000

and uh they were out there practicing with the for war. The army was out there, all these

00:37:44.000 - 00:37:52.000

tanks and stuff all over Blythe. And uh it was hot I mean you'd take

00:37:52.000 - 00:38:00.000

off and the perspiration would just drip down your arm. There were three other girls out there with me learning to fly.

00:38:00.000 - 00:38:08.000

I don't know how you felt when you learned to fly. I'd go to bed at night and I was moving my legs and dreaming about the airplane and what I was going to do

00:38:08.000 - 00:38:16.000

I can remember that very distinctly. Because my bed was in a mess when I'd wake up. I'd been dreaming about what I should

00:38:16.000 - 00:38:24.000

do when I was trying to learn. And Mr. Howard was a good instructor. And that's

00:38:24.000 - 00:38:32.000

one thing I learned in giving a speech at Randolph. Uh at the NCO club which was new and

00:38:32.000 - 00:38:40.000

beautiful and I don't know if you know a lot about the Air Force but the Chiefs are very important

00:38:40.000 - 00:38:48.000

people. And I think they know everything. I really do and I still work with one on my volunteer work

00:38:48.000 - 00:38:56.000

who's about at the age of one of my sons. And they're just fantastic. But anyway this woman Chief called me and asked if

00:38:56.000 - 00:39:04.000

we would speak there and I said I'd love to. And that speech will always be my favorite one. My husband went through flying school

00:39:04.000 - 00:39:12.000

there. I taught school there. I do volunteer work there. And to me it's like coming home. And

00:39:12.000 - 00:39:20.000

that speech we had 150 people. The NCO club was just beautiful and you felt like you were at

00:39:20.000 - 00:39:28.000

home. And all these people come up to you afterwards and there were two active duty girls there who flew. And when I told

00:39:28.000 - 00:39:36.000

them about, I was put up for elimination riding after we jumped from a PT-17

00:39:36.000 - 00:39:44.000

to an AT-6. From 220 to 650 horsepower was a big jump. And I was little. And it took me

00:39:44.000 - 00:39:52.000

two cushions to sit on and two behind me to reach full right rudder. And who should I get for an instructor but a fellow from

00:39:52.000 - 00:40:00.000

San Bernardino. And San Bernardino was one of our big opponents in high school football and all that

00:40:00.000 - 00:40:08.000

stuff. I was a college graduate. He wasn't. We went up for three rides. I never heard such

00:40:08.000 - 00:40:18.000

swearing in words in my life. I was just panicked. I didn't know what to think or anything. And he put

00:40:18.000 - 00:40:26.000

me up for a pink slip. Well I was devastated. I thought my father will just die if I disappoint him.

00:40:26.000 - 00:40:34.000

And so I rode with a captain. I didn't think I'd ever forget his name.

00:40:34.000 - 00:40:42.000

But we flew up. We did everything and we got down. And he says, "You know, Williamson, there's nothing to matter with you."

00:40:42.000 - 00:40:50.000

I never heard such wonderful words in my whole life. And that's when I met Madge and Scotty

00:40:50.000 - 00:41:00.000

and who else in our class. Anyway, there were three of them. They were all tall. But the point was these two

00:41:00.000 - 00:41:08.000

active duty girls came up and they said, "I'm so glad you told me about that because that was not harassment. That was

00:41:08.000 - 00:41:16.000

a personality clash." And she said, "Now I've got that to stand on." And it could cover a lot of this

00:41:16.000 - 00:41:24.000

harassment stuff. I never realized harassment. I never really thought about the

00:41:24.000 - 00:41:32.000

word when we were going through. And where we were stationed, we were treated like queens. We had a wonderful tour as a

00:41:32.000 - 00:41:40.000

WASP. I loved it. And... Okay. She's got to change the film. Okay.

00:41:40.000 - 00:41:52.000

When you first heard about the WASP? Well, I guess it was... I really

00:41:52.000 - 00:42:00.000

honestly can't tell you the truth when I heard about them. And I assume it was through Ethel Sheehy talking to my dad, maybe.

00:42:00.000 - 00:42:08.000

Or... I really don't know when I first heard about them. But was it

00:42:08.000 - 00:42:16.000

after you heard about them then you decided to go ahead and take flying lessons? Or had you already started? Yes. No. I

00:42:16.000 - 00:42:24.000

took flying lessons for the purpose of becoming eligible to be considered for the WASP. Okay. And

00:42:24.000 - 00:42:32.000

describe from the time you started taking flying lessons then until you applied.

00:42:32.000 - 00:42:40.000

I took my flying lessons, got my time in out at Blythe, California that summer. And passed that qualification.

00:42:40.000 - 00:42:50.000

I went over and had a... at the Air Force Base

00:42:50.000 - 00:42:58.000

and had my physical. And then I did not have to have the background check because of uh...

00:42:58.000 - 00:43:06.000

What's her name? I can't even think of her name right now. Ethel Sheehy. Because she'd known me since I was a

00:43:06.000 - 00:43:18.000

little tiny girl. Let me back up a minute and ask you to tell me about your first solo flight. Well, it was scary but I felt

00:43:18.000 - 00:43:26.000

that Mr. Howard was a good instructor and if he thought I could do it, that I could do it. And I went out

00:43:26.000 - 00:43:34.000

and did what he told me. I don't remember exactly what things I did. To be honest, I don't really know.

00:43:34.000 - 00:43:42.000

I know that I felt comfortable and it was hot. And it was something I wanted very much to be perfect

00:43:42.000 - 00:43:50.000

in. For some child listening, Betty, tell me what does it feel like when you're flying?

00:43:50.000 - 00:43:58.000

How do you feel? To me, I feel free. I can't sing. And when I get

00:43:58.000 - 00:44:06.000

up in an airplane and if I were flying with my husband, he says, "Okay, Liz, just sing like a crow." But now when I get up there by myself,

00:44:06.000 - 00:44:18.000

regardless of that, to me, you're free of everything. It's just like another world. You're all by yourself.

00:44:18.000 - 00:44:26.000

And it's a wonderful feeling. Were you ever able to take your mother or your dad flying with you? No.

00:44:26.000 - 00:44:34.000

Okay. Let's go on and tell me about when you got your letter or how did you

00:44:34.000 - 00:44:44.000

receive notification that you had been accepted as a trainee? I don't really remember that. Okay.

00:44:44.000 - 00:44:54.000

At this point, was your brother already flying? Yes. He was already flying.

00:44:54.000 - 00:45:02.000

How did it make him feel to know that you were in training to fly, learning to fly? Well, all my brothers thought

00:45:02.000 - 00:45:10.000

I was pretty wonderful, even if we did fight. And I thought they were pretty wonderful, but particularly this last one who just died, who

00:45:10.000 - 00:45:18.000

was the second one. They all were brilliant, but this one was particularly brilliant. The reason I miss him is

00:45:18.000 - 00:45:26.000

that I could always talk to him and he knew all this technology stuff. He was exceptional, one of the

00:45:26.000 - 00:45:34.000

finest physicists that ever went through Caltech. I miss that terribly. Plus, just

00:45:34.000 - 00:45:42.000

people. He was loved and... How did your mom and dad feel when you told them that you

00:45:42.000 - 00:45:50.000

wanted to go into flight training? They were behind me. Anything. And like I said, later after I graduated and I was

00:45:50.000 - 00:45:58.000

through, my mother admitted that she was scared. But she would never let me

00:45:58.000 - 00:46:06.000

know that. And in fact, she had three boys and a friend of ours who had one son out flying

00:46:06.000 - 00:46:14.000

would come to her and forget that she had three boys to worry about. But she never... never complained and she was

00:46:14.000 - 00:46:22.000

just... we all worshipped her. So for the war, your mom gave up all of you children.

00:46:22.000 - 00:46:30.000

Mm-hmm. But anybody that can go across the Pacific Ocean eight times and get sick gave up a lot

00:46:30.000 - 00:46:38.000

just doing that. We used to really kid her about not caring about us. Where we were born was some Army doctor

00:46:38.000 - 00:46:46.000

we didn't know or anything, but it was a big joke. But she was a great lady. How did you

00:46:46.000 - 00:46:54.000

get from California to Sweetwater? I rode the train. Tell me about that.

00:46:54.000 - 00:47:04.000

Uh... I couldn't get a flight. It was very difficult to get a flight. And I'll never forget

00:47:04.000 - 00:47:12.000

coming from California and those were the days that California was really out of this world compared to other places.

00:47:12.000 - 00:47:20.000

Um... When I arrived in Sweetwater I thought, "There aren't any trees. There aren't any mountains.

00:47:20.000 - 00:47:28.000

We're way out here in the desert someplace or something." And I use this in my speeches.

00:47:28.000 - 00:47:36.000

I tell them I just was overcome coming to this place. But I said, "Eventually I learned that the warmth of the people

00:47:36.000 - 00:47:44.000

is made up in the barrenness of the land." And it was good flying weather. And when you got to

00:47:44.000 - 00:47:52.000

Sweetwater, what did you do? What happened? Did you stay in a hotel? I don't remember where we

00:47:52.000 - 00:48:00.000

stayed. I just remembered there were a lot of women and of course um... Oh, this famous author's wife

00:48:00.000 - 00:48:08.000

was in our class. Runyon wife was in our class and the diamond that she had that she wore and...

00:48:08.000 - 00:48:16.000

and um... Tell me about going out to Avenger Field. What was your first impression?

00:48:16.000 - 00:48:24.000

I really don't remember. I mean it was just bare land and and uh...

00:48:24.000 - 00:48:32.000

Also that I couldn't believe I was really here. It was difficult to accept. When you were...

00:48:32.000 - 00:48:40.000

When you arrived at Avenger, uh... Tell me how you... What kind of quarters you had.

00:48:40.000 - 00:48:48.000

Tell me about the training. Well, uh... We had six in a bay

00:48:48.000 - 00:48:56.000

with one bathroom and six on the other side and you can imagine twelve women with one bathroom and especially one of my

00:48:56.000 - 00:49:04.000

classmates who wanted to put on false eyelashes. I learned about false eyelashes, but also I made a big mistake

00:49:04.000 - 00:49:12.000

in um... I don't remember if we could bring six pair of slacks or four pair of slacks and she was putting her slacks out on the bed

00:49:12.000 - 00:49:20.000

and then she announced, "These are from Neiman Marcus." And I made the big mistake of saying, "What's Neiman Marcus?"

00:49:20.000 - 00:49:28.000

And I said, "I learned a big lesson but also I had to tell them in California we had eye magnets and JW Robinsons and

00:49:28.000 - 00:49:36.000

everything else to go with it." But I will never forget Neiman Marcus. Believe me. Uh...

00:49:36.000 - 00:49:44.000

Describe your bay mates. Uh... I lost half of them in the first

00:49:44.000 - 00:49:52.000

few weeks and Susie Bain and I who was... We were good friends.

00:49:52.000 - 00:50:02.000

Tell me about... I really... I mean I was so busy worrying about myself and trying to do the right thing I really can't

00:50:02.000 - 00:50:10.000

tell you. Okay, tell me about your flying uniforms and your regular uniform. What did you wear?

00:50:10.000 - 00:50:18.000

Well, we wore those old zoot suits. They were issue size 40 or something

00:50:18.000 - 00:50:26.000

and you could be wrapped around you two or three times. I do remember that and I remember having to carry

00:50:26.000 - 00:50:34.000

cushions sometimes to sit on but I also... Susie and I had the same instructor through

00:50:34.000 - 00:50:42.000

primary and I happened to have a Mr. Roberts and I feel sure after going through the program that

00:50:42.000 - 00:50:52.000

there might have been some personality clashes in some of these girls that were let go. What was the biggest

00:50:52.000 - 00:51:06.000

adjustment that you had to make? I really don't remember a big adjustment. I mean I was used to a house with a lot of

00:51:06.000 - 00:51:14.000

boys, my brothers and things but all these women I was interested in

00:51:14.000 - 00:51:22.000

the other women, where they'd been and what they had done but you never really had that much time to visit with them.

00:51:22.000 - 00:51:30.000

I was trying to concentrate on what I was doing. I had one thing, a goal, and that was to graduate and get

00:51:30.000 - 00:51:38.000

my wings. Tell me what a day's schedule was like. Well, some mornings you were up very, very early.

00:51:38.000 - 00:51:46.000

I don't remember the exact time and you didn't have... I wasn't one to wear much makeup anyway

00:51:46.000 - 00:51:54.000

but you did have girls who did and to get out to the auxiliary field or get out there.

00:51:54.000 - 00:52:02.000

You just had to be on your toes all the time. What is your most memorable experience during

00:52:02.000 - 00:52:12.000

training? It was the day I was put up for an elimination drive. That was... almost killed me.

00:52:12.000 - 00:52:20.000

And I did a lot of praying and... Was that in primary? Mm-hmm.

00:52:20.000 - 00:52:28.000

We started out in a PT-19 and then they, I think a couple of girls soloed and we got about six or seven hours

00:52:28.000 - 00:52:36.000

and then we changed to the Stearman. So it was in primary. Yes. 220 to 650.

00:52:36.000 - 00:52:44.000

And like I've always said, that each class is an experiment. They do something different in each class

00:52:44.000 - 00:52:52.000

that they didn't do in a previous class. So was it after you switched and were in the 86 that you got this elimination drive? Yes.

00:52:52.000 - 00:53:02.000

When I jumped. In the first three rides that I had. Tell me about ground school. What did you enjoy in ground school?

00:53:02.000 - 00:53:10.000

The D-Dots. [laughter] I enjoyed that. I think maybe I was

00:53:10.000 - 00:53:18.000

pretty good at it and I had a little confidence. I'm not very often confident enough, I think, that I could

00:53:18.000 - 00:53:28.000

believe in myself that I could do it. But that fascinated me. That and engines. How did you feel when some

00:53:28.000 - 00:53:38.000

of your bay mates washed out? I felt very sad because it might have been me. Might have been I.

00:53:38.000 - 00:53:46.000

I did feel sorry for them. Do you remember any memorable experiences on cross-country trips? Or just describe.

00:53:46.000 - 00:53:54.000

Just the long cross-country trip where part of us went to the west and part of us went to the east. To be frankly,

00:53:54.000 - 00:54:02.000

I really didn't realize we went to the west and part of us went to the east. I didn't realize

00:54:02.000 - 00:54:10.000

that we went to the west and part of us went to the east. We went to the west and we landed

00:54:10.000 - 00:54:20.000

in Tucson, Arizona. What a major city it was in my life. The rest of

00:54:20.000 - 00:54:28.000

my life later on. We would be stationed there with the U-2 birds and also

00:54:28.000 - 00:54:36.000

my sons went to school there. We were transferred when they were in high school from a little

00:54:36.000 - 00:54:44.000

town in Del Rio to a big high school. They'd be on a morning shift one semester

00:54:44.000 - 00:54:52.000

and an afternoon shift the next semester. There were a lot of adjustments to make when I was married. What is the most memorable

00:54:52.000 - 00:55:04.000

experience that you had on the cross-country? Well, I got lost. That's memorable.

00:55:04.000 - 00:55:12.000

It was very memorable because I ended up in Phoenix when I was supposed to be in Tucson and this major thought I was delivering an airplane. He came

00:55:12.000 - 00:55:20.000

rushing out. Oh, he was so thrilled to see me and I said, "I'm due in Tucson." He said, "Well, I'll take you down there." And I said, "No, I've got to get

00:55:20.000 - 00:55:28.000

down there by myself." So I took off and I got down there and I was late and the civilian

00:55:28.000 - 00:55:36.000

who was in charge of us had a date and he was livid and he said, "Well, what happened to you?" I said, "Well, I just got lost." And about that time

00:55:36.000 - 00:55:44.000

a classmate of mine, Peggy Parker, arrives and he says, "Well, Parker, what happened to you?" She said, "Well, you know,

00:55:44.000 - 00:55:52.000

my map flew out." And I thought, "Williamson, you're a dumb nut standing here and telling them you're getting lost." I learned a big lesson

00:55:52.000 - 00:56:00.000

there. But anyway, Tucson ended up to be very important in my life later.

00:56:00.000 - 00:56:08.000

That's a big thing I remember. Had you just misread the maps? No, I was trying to bracket the beam

00:56:08.000 - 00:56:16.000

and I never was very good at bracketing the beam, even if I did teach the Mexican Fighter Squadron instrument. But

00:56:16.000 - 00:56:24.000

if I fly time and distance I can do great. But when I try to bracket that beam, I just wasn't a superstar

00:56:24.000 - 00:56:32.000

by any manner of means. But I was trying that and I shouldn't have messed with it. When you went from primary

00:56:32.000 - 00:56:40.000

to the 86s, there was a little bit of time in there that you had off. What did you do during that time?

00:56:40.000 - 00:56:50.000

I don't remember having time off, but you can bet I did a lot of praying. I did.

00:56:50.000 - 00:56:58.000

I just thought the only thing I could think of was that I'd disappoint my dad. And that was very important to me.

00:56:58.000 - 00:57:10.000

Who were your role models growing up, Betty? My role models growing up? I guess my mom

00:57:10.000 - 00:57:20.000

and my dad. My mom particularly. She was actually

00:57:20.000 - 00:57:28.000

you know, for a woman a golf champion and this, that. In those days it was quite something special.

00:57:28.000 - 00:57:42.000

Describe for me the mess hall, your meals. You know, I don't remember anything about that. Meg will tell you

00:57:42.000 - 00:57:52.000

what we ate down to the last thing. I don't remember the mess hall at all. I just remember that Suzy and I

00:57:52.000 - 00:58:02.000

would go to church on the Sunday sometime in the cattle wagon to town. My memory is just blank about eating. I don't

00:58:02.000 - 00:58:12.000

know why, but. Anything unusual happen at an auxiliary field? Not that I can remember.

00:58:12.000 - 00:58:20.000

I know that one of your classmates was killed. Yes. Just before you graduated. Tell me

00:58:20.000 - 00:58:28.000

how that affected you. Well, it upset me. I had a college classmate who was

00:58:28.000 - 00:58:36.000

killed. I can't even think of her name right now. She couldn't

00:58:36.000 - 00:58:44.000

jump out because she was too close and the hydraulic system had burst and stuff was all over her eyes and stuff.

00:58:44.000 - 00:58:52.000

And she crashed. When you graduated, where were your brothers?

00:58:52.000 - 00:59:00.000

Where were my brothers? Well, Bev was out in the Pacific.

00:59:00.000 - 00:59:12.000

And Jack was in near Santa Ana.

00:59:12.000 - 00:59:20.000

And my other brother, I don't know whether he was still in Harvard getting a statistical rating.

00:59:20.000 - 00:59:28.000

I really don't remember just where they were. Tell me about graduation from Avenger.

00:59:28.000 - 00:59:38.000

It was thrilling. I mean, you made it. I guess it was

00:59:38.000 - 00:59:46.000

wonderful is the only word. It was wonderful, but it was a relief. And now you had a lot to live up to.

00:59:46.000 - 00:59:54.000

That's the way I felt. What was your preference to do after graduation?

00:59:54.000 - 01:00:04.000

What did you want to do? I really hadn't thought about what I wanted to do. I would like to have ferried aircraft,

01:00:04.000 - 01:00:14.000

which we did in a way. I was happy with everything I did. We did ferry, like I say, from one field that had closed

01:00:14.000 - 01:00:26.000

down to Kelly. We did that frequently. Let me talk about graduation. Do you remember any of the celebrities or anyone

01:00:26.000 - 01:00:34.000

who came for that graduation? No. I don't. What did you do right after graduation?

01:00:34.000 - 01:00:42.000

Did you go to California? Tell me about that trip. Well, I think I'm not sure. I think I bummed a ride.

01:00:42.000 - 01:00:52.000

I'm not sure. I can't really honestly say. I might get it mixed up with something else. When you got home,

01:00:52.000 - 01:01:00.000

do you remember how you felt when you wore that uniform? I felt very important, and there was a big article

01:01:00.000 - 01:01:08.000

in the paper that made my mom and dad very proud, and it was a small town. Everybody knew who I was

01:01:08.000 - 01:01:16.000

and who my father was, and it was a very exciting time. My brothers were very thrilled with me for once,

01:01:16.000 - 01:01:24.000

all three of them. I don't know. It was just something that you can't put into words.

01:01:24.000 - 01:01:32.000

I can't. I felt that I had measured up to all three of them, finally. That was a pretty big order.

01:01:32.000 - 01:01:42.000

But, yeah, but, it's... And then where were you stationed?

01:01:42.000 - 01:01:50.000

I was stationed up in Independence, Kansas, and then I was stationed at Parent Field. Let's stay at Independence for a minute.

01:01:50.000 - 01:01:58.000

To whom did you report when you went to Independence? I have no idea. Where did you live?

01:01:58.000 - 01:02:06.000

We lived, I don't even remember. We were there only a short time, maybe three weeks. Okay, who is "we"?

01:02:06.000 - 01:02:14.000

Ina Barkley and I, a classmate of ours. Okay. And then from Independence? We went to Parent, which was also

01:02:14.000 - 01:02:22.000

a basic flying school. And we bummed a ride with these brand-new second lieutenants in a B-17,

01:02:22.000 - 01:02:30.000

and we thought they were fantastic. But after I got married, you know, there's nothing who thinks he's as hot as a brand-new

01:02:30.000 - 01:02:38.000

graduating from flying school in the Air Force. Boy, they think there's something, and they are.

01:02:38.000 - 01:02:46.000

Or I wouldn't have married him, I guess. I don't know. And did they think you were something? Yes.

01:02:46.000 - 01:02:54.000

So when you got to Parent, do you remember reporting to someone? Yes.

01:02:54.000 - 01:03:02.000

I'm not going to tell the whole story, but I was married, and he was like a doctor to me, telling me all his advice

01:03:02.000 - 01:03:10.000

about a newlywed and all that stuff. What was his name? He was a dear man, and I can't

01:03:10.000 - 01:03:18.000

recall his name. May I just probably tell you? Let's back up. If you were already married, tell me about this special person.

01:03:18.000 - 01:03:26.000

My husband? When did you get married? On the 22nd of September, 1944.

01:03:26.000 - 01:03:36.000

He said none of us would have graduated if he'd been there. How did you meet him? He was an instructor

01:03:36.000 - 01:03:44.000

there, and when we would ferry go out, and then ferry these planes to Kelly,

01:03:44.000 - 01:03:52.000

sometimes they'd fly and pick us up. That's how Madge met hers, and Alice met hers.

01:03:52.000 - 01:04:00.000

Let's see, who else in our class married? What were the qualities about this particular

01:04:00.000 - 01:04:12.000

boy that appealed to you? It was just something, because I was dating three other guys before I even got down there.

01:04:12.000 - 01:04:20.000

A couple of them wanted me to marry them, and I didn't want to get married yet, but this one I wanted to marry.

01:04:22.000 - 01:04:32.000

So, we got married. Tell me about your wedding. My wedding? I had a wedding dress

01:04:32.000 - 01:04:40.000

made down there in Fort Worth someplace, and Ina was my maid of honor, and my mother

01:04:40.000 - 01:04:48.000

flew there, and she'd never been in an airplane, and she didn't want to fly, but she came, and then we had a cousin down there in Houston

01:04:48.000 - 01:04:58.000

that was some big wheel that came and got her, and calmed her down. It was a very simple little

01:04:58.000 - 01:05:06.000

wedding. Did you marry on the base? In the chapel? No, we married in a little Episcopal church there.

01:05:06.000 - 01:05:14.000

This is at Perrin? No, this is in Dallas. I can't remember the hotel where we stayed, either.

01:05:14.000 - 01:05:22.000

This has been a million years ago. At that point, though, you were stationed at Perrin? Yes.

01:05:22.000 - 01:05:30.000

Okay, and he was an instructor. So, when you went back to Perrin, were you able to live together, or did

01:05:30.000 - 01:05:38.000

you still live with your mom? We had trouble getting a place to stay, and

01:05:38.000 - 01:05:48.000

he was going overseas, and I was pregnant, and we finally ended up with Madge's

01:05:48.000 - 01:05:56.000

husband's mother. We had a place way out, I can't even think where it was now, from

01:05:56.000 - 01:06:04.000

Perrin. Driving, and she was stationed out at Lackland. And

01:06:04.000 - 01:06:12.000

then we got an apartment or something, and then Mrs.

01:06:12.000 - 01:06:20.000

Moore wanted us to come live there. We had a hard time. She really didn't want us at first, and then she and Chip would

01:06:20.000 - 01:06:28.000

sit up and play solitaire, and both of them cheating all the time. It was funny. But we were

01:06:28.000 - 01:06:36.000

fortunate to get a place. I don't know if you had that experience during the war. To find a place to live was

01:06:36.000 - 01:06:44.000

difficult. And then he went overseas, and I went home, and then I had a baby.

01:06:44.000 - 01:06:52.000

Before he went overseas, while you were still at Perrin, did you ever fly together? Mm-hmm.

01:06:52.000 - 01:07:00.000

A WASP had a PT-19, Starley Grona, and we used to borrow it from

01:07:00.000 - 01:07:08.000

her and fly around a little bit. But as far as the official, as a WASP and as a pilot, No. You didn't fly together.

01:07:08.000 - 01:07:16.000

No. Then once he left to go overseas, then you resigned and

01:07:16.000 - 01:07:24.000

went back? I resigned before, like I told you, about ten days before the final day. Right.

01:07:24.000 - 01:07:32.000

Right. So I didn't... So then did you go back to California? Where did you go?

01:07:32.000 - 01:07:46.000

Um... I really can't remember where I went. I stayed in Texas. I'm trying to think.

01:07:46.000 - 01:07:56.000

Perrin Field. I did not go back to California. Okay. I stayed in Texas, and I taught school.

01:07:56.000 - 01:08:06.000

I really can't remember. Okay, that's okay. Let's back up, because I wanted to know about some of these cadets

01:08:06.000 - 01:08:16.000

that you flew at this one, at Perrin, that you instructed. I didn't instruct at Perrin.

01:08:16.000 - 01:08:24.000

I did at Victoria. At Victoria. Okay. I don't know anything about them. Okay. I have a letter that I finally found,

01:08:24.000 - 01:08:32.000

because Mickey Brown lives in Victoria, and there were a whole bunch of WASPs who were stationed down there,

01:08:32.000 - 01:08:42.000

classmates of ours. And... None of them came from California, because they got

01:08:42.000 - 01:08:50.000

mixed up on a date or something else. And I went down, stayed with Mickey, and we put on a real good display board.

01:08:50.000 - 01:08:58.000

But I was the only WASP who had been stationed there at that time. And they were very nice to me. And then this one man wrote to me,

01:08:58.000 - 01:09:06.000

and I lost his letter, and lo and behold, I found it about a month ago, and I still haven't answered it.

01:09:06.000 - 01:09:14.000

I felt so badly about it. And what was your assignment at Victoria? I instructed the 1st Mexican

01:09:14.000 - 01:09:22.000

Fighter Squadron on instruments. That's what I wanted you to tell me about. Tell me about just one of those flights.

01:09:22.000 - 01:09:30.000

Those fellas had 2,000 hours or so on straight and level flying, and here I was, you know, with a minimum of maybe...

01:09:30.000 - 01:09:38.000

I'd be lucky if I had 100 hours or something like that. I don't really remember. But

01:09:38.000 - 01:09:46.000

we did fine. And then, you know, ponga the flaps. I mean, I knew enough to tell them. And then you'd get out,

01:09:46.000 - 01:09:54.000

and they'd get out from under the hood and say, "Oh, you are so beautiful." Well, how could you flunk anybody who'd tell you that every time they get out

01:09:54.000 - 01:10:02.000

of the airplane? No, they were very, very nice. Describe for me, from beginning to end, one

01:10:02.000 - 01:10:10.000

particular flight that you would make. You would go out to the airplane and take it from there, and tell me about that

01:10:10.000 - 01:10:20.000

flight, about instructing. Would he take it off, or would you take it off? He'd take it off. I let him do everything.

01:10:20.000 - 01:10:28.000

Would he be under the hood from takeoff? I don't remember that. Probably, probably, but I

01:10:28.000 - 01:10:36.000

really don't have any recollection of him. Did he have Did you give him a chart that told

01:10:36.000 - 01:10:44.000

him where he should fly? Did he fly a pattern? Yes, he flew a pattern. And then you graded him.

01:10:44.000 - 01:10:52.000

Is that correct? And then when you would land, would he land from under the hood? No.

01:10:52.000 - 01:11:00.000

Okay. At what point would he come out from under the hood? Well, when we were

01:11:00.000 - 01:11:08.000

getting ready to land. I did try a couple of them at work, but I didn't do it every time with them. Right.

01:11:08.000 - 01:11:16.000

I kind of experimented to see. Of all the things you did as a WASP, because you flew some of

01:11:16.000 - 01:11:24.000

the airplanes to Mothballs, and you did liaison flying, and you did the instructing, what did you enjoy

01:11:24.000 - 01:11:32.000

the most? Just being a WASP. Okay. Just feeling

01:11:32.000 - 01:11:40.000

I had succeeded in a goal that I treasured. I felt fortunate because

01:11:40.000 - 01:11:48.000

I thought of other people who had really were good pilots that had gotten in, gotten pregnant or something like that,

01:11:48.000 - 01:12:02.000

and what they'd given up. I don't know how to describe it. It always amazes me when you meet people

01:12:02.000 - 01:12:10.000

and they say, "Oh, well, you were a pioneer." I never felt like a pioneer. I felt like I was doing something for my country.

01:12:10.000 - 01:12:18.000

That was what was important for me. And that's what's difficult for me in the later years,

01:12:18.000 - 01:12:30.000

is how we're all apart. I very often, even when I go to the commissary or the BX,

01:12:30.000 - 01:12:38.000

now feel like I'm in a foreign country. It's not like it used to be. Once your husband

01:12:38.000 - 01:12:46.000

left and went overseas, did you immediately start teaching school again? No.

01:12:46.000 - 01:12:54.000

I was pregnant. That was a funny story because this brother of mine over there in Pasadena

01:12:54.000 - 01:13:06.000

had just had his wife up there to have a baby. I'm not Catholic and neither is she, but we went to a Catholic

01:13:06.000 - 01:13:14.000

hospital because that's where my doctor, she's a female doctor, and my brother took me and he'd just been there four months earlier

01:13:14.000 - 01:13:22.000

with another baby and the nuns were having a fit, wondering about this. They had a hard time.

01:13:22.000 - 01:13:34.000

But I remember that. Do you remember how you felt when they put that baby in your arms? Well, I couldn't believe it and I couldn't believe when I went in there

01:13:34.000 - 01:13:42.000

because I waited a while and I heard all these women screaming and I thought, "I'm not going to be doing that." And I was one of the worst ones before they got through with me.

01:13:42.000 - 01:13:50.000

And all I wondered was that his dad wasn't there and that I would have to take him over on a

01:13:50.000 - 01:13:58.000

ship before he could see him. And I worried. And did you? Yes.

01:13:58.000 - 01:14:06.000

Tell me about that trip. Well, it's the same old story. I thought he had to have an egg every day or he'd die and I thought he had to have this every day

01:14:06.000 - 01:14:14.000

or he'd die and I was on the ship and he had an egg every day.

01:14:14.000 - 01:14:22.000

How old was the baby at that point? Six months. I couldn't take him until he was six months.

01:14:22.000 - 01:14:30.000

How did you get from? My mother and I drove up to Washington and left from I can't remember the

01:14:30.000 - 01:14:38.000

port of embarkation up there. And then we got in a storm and had to turn around and come back part of the way and then we took off again.

01:14:38.000 - 01:14:48.000

Was this a troop ship, then? And where were you bound for? He was

01:14:48.000 - 01:14:56.000

in Japan at what was a base outside of town. He had a squadron of sergeants,

01:14:56.000 - 01:15:06.000

flying sergeants. Kamaki. When was this? David was born in 1947.

01:15:06.000 - 01:15:14.000

And you left from Washington State. I can't think of the port of embarkation up there.

01:15:14.000 - 01:15:22.000

I can't think of what it was. How long did it take you? I don't remember that because

01:15:22.000 - 01:15:30.000

I was busy with diapers and you didn't have all the comfort you have now and the bottles and all that stuff. I was so scared

01:15:30.000 - 01:15:38.000

something was going to happen before he got to see his dad. I mean it really worried me. And after you have another one,

01:15:38.000 - 01:15:48.000

you know, it's easy. Where did you land in Japan? Yokohama? Probably Yokohama.

01:15:48.000 - 01:15:56.000

I honestly can't remember. I haven't even thought about this in a million years. Was your husband waiting

01:15:56.000 - 01:16:04.000

there for you when you landed? He and Benny Click, Mary Lou Click was with me. She wasn't pregnant, but she was with me.

01:16:04.000 - 01:16:12.000

She might remember where we were. And where was he stationed? In Nagoya. Okay.

01:16:12.000 - 01:16:20.000

And he had the squadron? And then it went out to the squadron of sergeants, flying sergeants.

01:16:20.000 - 01:16:28.000

He took over from somebody there. And what were they flying? Little

01:16:28.000 - 01:16:36.000

airplanes. Like I want to say little airplanes.

01:16:36.000 - 01:16:44.000

I can't think of any little airplanes. Like little training planes. Like L-5s? Yeah, L-5s. Exactly. That's what they were flying.

01:16:44.000 - 01:16:52.000

How was your stay in Japan? Well,

01:16:52.000 - 01:17:00.000

when I got there, there wasn't, the American village wasn't complete, and I was in a hotel and Shipp had enough cents to get

01:17:00.000 - 01:17:08.000

me a room where the heater pipe was, went through the room and we had some heat.

01:17:08.000 - 01:17:16.000

And this baby and I had a maid, but I felt like she was wearing some of my clothes

01:17:16.000 - 01:17:24.000

when I wasn't there, you know, or be out for the evening or something. But then we moved to the American village

01:17:24.000 - 01:17:32.000

and my mother had told me not to take any silverware or anything over there because it'll rob you blind.

01:17:32.000 - 01:17:40.000

And sure enough, I mean, any trash that you had out the next day, it all disappeared from around your house.

01:17:40.000 - 01:17:48.000

But it was fine. We were lucky to have a house and I had

01:17:48.000 - 01:17:56.000

a girl who worked for me whose father was one of the ranking Japanese in the diet,

01:17:56.000 - 01:18:04.000

but they worked to get food. It was a wonderful experience. Tell me how you spent your

01:18:04.000 - 01:18:14.000

vacations while you were in Japan when he would have some time off. What would you do? That was in the

01:18:14.000 - 01:18:24.000

Philippines. We did more than that. I really didn't leave him very much. Okay. How long were you stationed at Nagoya?

01:18:24.000 - 01:18:32.000

We came back 1944, '45, '49.

01:18:32.000 - 01:18:40.000

Came back in '49. We were stationed in Waco in '49.

01:18:40.000 - 01:18:48.000

How did you get back from Japan? Did you come on a ship? We went on a ship and believe me, my husband was a captain

01:18:48.000 - 01:18:56.000

and when we got on board the ship, I got into my cabin and I had this

01:18:56.000 - 01:19:04.000

little baby and I put him on the bottom bunk and this woman came in there all fancy-dancy and

01:19:04.000 - 01:19:12.000

she says, "What rank is your husband?" I said, "Well, my husband's a captain." "Oh," she said, "well, my husband's a major."

01:19:12.000 - 01:19:20.000

And she said, "I want this cabin." I said, "Oh, you know, I never had anybody do something like that."

01:19:20.000 - 01:19:28.000

And so I got my husband and he was just livid. He said, "Well, we'll do something about this." And he went to the head man of the boat

01:19:28.000 - 01:19:36.000

or ship or whatever and that woman's husband had to walk what do they call them, chores around the rest of the

01:19:36.000 - 01:19:44.000

way. I don't know what they did with her, but I got that bunk. I don't know what he said, but she

01:19:44.000 - 01:19:52.000

scared me to death. I never had anybody try to pull any rank on me. I never even thought about, you know,

01:19:52.000 - 01:20:00.000

a baby you'd want. Anyway. When you got back to the States, where were you stationed in?

01:20:00.000 - 01:20:08.000

Waco. And what was he doing at Waco? He was chief of maintenance there.

01:20:08.000 - 01:20:16.000

We were there and then we went to down in the valley to Harlingen

01:20:16.000 - 01:20:24.000

and then he went to command and staff and then we went to the Philippines. He was destined to go to Alaska,

01:20:24.000 - 01:20:34.000

but he wasn't qualified in something anyway. So we went to the Philippines. Okay. And then

01:20:34.000 - 01:20:44.000

where were you when you had your next child? One was Texan and one was a Californian. Was he born in Waco?

01:20:44.000 - 01:20:52.000

Yes. Dr. Conley. He was one of the Conley Conleys and I said, "I want you here. I don't want you somewhere. I want somebody

01:20:52.000 - 01:21:00.000

to go with me when I have this baby or I'll fly to California." And he was there. He was there.

01:21:00.000 - 01:21:08.000

That's the one who's such a politician. That's the one who was born in Texas. I forget Charlie is a Texan.

01:21:08.000 - 01:21:16.000

When you were stationed in Waco, where did you live? That was another thing. They had just built some apartments

01:21:16.000 - 01:21:24.000

and I had a feeling you'd probably ask me this and I can't remember what they were. Okay. But they weren't on the air base? No.

01:21:24.000 - 01:21:32.000

We didn't live on the base. Of all the tours that you did with your husband, which one did you enjoy the most?

01:21:32.000 - 01:21:42.000

Well, I guess maybe in Del Rio when we were with the U2s. Then we moved to

01:21:42.000 - 01:21:52.000

En Masse. That's quite a move from Del Rio to Tucson. Where did your children

01:21:52.000 - 01:22:00.000

start school? Del Rio. Tell me about the tour that you did in the Philippines.

01:22:00.000 - 01:22:08.000

Well, I took them down to where we used to live and a Japanese

01:22:08.000 - 01:22:16.000

or Chinese bought our big house and they lived there and I wanted them and one of the

01:22:16.000 - 01:22:26.000

women who'd taken care of me was still there and we stayed there. It's a hotel now. We traveled around there.

01:22:26.000 - 01:22:38.000

I wanted them to see where I'd grown up and they enjoyed that. After you were married, did you then go back

01:22:38.000 - 01:22:46.000

and teach school again? I did because my husband was grounded from flying.

01:22:46.000 - 01:22:54.000

If he hadn't been in such a highly classified secret thing, I think he would have been, I'm sure he would have been

01:22:54.000 - 01:23:02.000

kicked out because he was diabetic. He couldn't fly. He was grounded but he had a regular

01:23:02.000 - 01:23:10.000

mission and he was into my secretive stuff. I don't know. Okay.

01:23:10.000 - 01:23:18.000

But if you tell the story... Let me go back, Betty, and have you tell me about sometimes when your husband

01:23:18.000 - 01:23:26.000

repeats that story when you would not know where he was going on a mission. Well, I didn't.

01:23:26.000 - 01:23:34.000

I mean, what you want me to say? I just want you to tell it on camera again about the sergeant coming in

01:23:34.000 - 01:23:42.000

getting the uniforms. A phone call in the middle of the night? Yes. Typical.

01:23:42.000 - 01:23:50.000

And then all these people would come, famous people, and you know, we had to have hors d'oeuvres and all that stuff and I'd say,

01:23:50.000 - 01:23:58.000

"Who's that?" "Well, you don't want to know who that is." "Boo, you don't want to know who he is." Well, I found out who they were. Some of them, I know a lot of the big

01:23:58.000 - 01:24:06.000

blocking people because we've dealt with them, but I don't know a whole lot. Okay. But one particular

01:24:06.000 - 01:24:14.000

time when he got a phone call and the next morning when you woke up he was gone. Repeat that

01:24:14.000 - 01:24:22.000

story. Oh. When do you want me to start? Anywhere. Right now?

01:24:22.000 - 01:24:30.000

Well, one night we got a phone call and I heard my husband saying, "Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir." And I began to wonder what "yes sir, yes sir," somebody

01:24:30.000 - 01:24:38.000

important must be on the line. And when he hung up he said, "Well, that was the general." And I said, "Oh."

01:24:38.000 - 01:24:46.000

And that was all I said and the next morning he was gone. I don't know where he went or what. And a couple of

01:24:46.000 - 01:24:54.000

days later the sergeant arrived and he said, "Colonel Shipley needs some uniforms." Okay. I'll get them.

01:24:54.000 - 01:25:02.000

But after a few days when you talk with other wives and then Andy got shot down, we put two and two together and we knew

01:25:02.000 - 01:25:10.000

where he was. Who was Andy? He was a pilot in the U-2 who was shot down.

01:25:10.000 - 01:25:24.000

Where were you stationed at that time? Del Rio. And eventually what was his job?

01:25:24.000 - 01:25:32.000

What was the title of his job? My husband's job? I really don't know. Okay.

01:25:32.000 - 01:25:40.000

I have an idea but I don't know. I don't want to say because I really don't know. Okay. When you left Del Rio

01:25:40.000 - 01:25:48.000

then where were you stationed? We went to Tucson. The wing went to Tucson.

01:25:48.000 - 01:25:56.000

Okay. In the meantime your boys are both in school? Mm-hmm. How did they enjoy

01:25:56.000 - 01:26:04.000

moving from one place to another? Did it seem to affect them? Yes, but I had promised them, the oldest one

01:26:04.000 - 01:26:12.000

was a junior in high school and the other one was two years younger than that,

01:26:12.000 - 01:26:20.000

that when they were in high school that we would stay. I would stay with them to graduate from high school

01:26:20.000 - 01:26:30.000

because they'd been shifted around quite a bit. And when they were younger they don't seem to they seem to adjust quicker

01:26:30.000 - 01:26:38.000

but when you get in high school usually you have friends from junior high and so on and so forth and they missed a lot of that

01:26:38.000 - 01:26:46.000

and one of them I did stay so he could graduate from high school. Oh.

01:26:46.000 - 01:26:56.000

But... And then after he graduated from high school then where did you go? We were stationed in Wright-Patterson.

01:26:56.000 - 01:27:04.000

Okay. And what did you do with your leisure time after those kids were, had

01:27:04.000 - 01:27:12.000

left home? Well, I got involved in Wives Club and that kind of stuff

01:27:12.000 - 01:27:20.000

and then I went back to teaching school and I found out my husband had been grounded from flying. Okay. Where were you when you

01:27:20.000 - 01:27:28.000

started teaching school again? Were you at Wright-Patterson? No, I went back to teaching school in the Philippines.

01:27:28.000 - 01:27:36.000

Okay. And what grade were you teaching there? I took third grade there. I think it was

01:27:36.000 - 01:27:44.000

third or fourth, I'm not sure. Describe for me the pleasure in teaching school. I loved it.

01:27:44.000 - 01:27:54.000

I loved children. I could relate to them. I can get down on their level. It's just something I've

01:27:54.000 - 01:28:02.000

wanted to do and my dad was the same way when we were growing up. There in Fontana they had the big orange show over in San Bernardino

01:28:02.000 - 01:28:10.000

and when we got too grown up to go to the orange show, he'd go around and find children who couldn't afford to go and take them.

01:28:10.000 - 01:28:18.000

And I felt the same way about children. I mean, I just loved them and particularly little children who had

01:28:18.000 - 01:28:28.000

problems. And I worked long and I worked to teach them

01:28:28.000 - 01:28:36.000

to read. I used a lot of Walt Disney stuff and I would stay. They would come early in the morning. It's hard to find teachers that'll do that now.

01:28:36.000 - 01:28:44.000

Betty, what do you feel is the most important thing that you taught those kids?

01:28:44.000 - 01:28:52.000

To believe in themselves and that they can do one thing better than anyone else. I remember in

01:28:52.000 - 01:29:00.000

Tucson, I was at an excellent school. I had an excellent class and I had a little Jewish boy. And that's

01:29:00.000 - 01:29:08.000

when we taught everything ourselves. We taught reading, writing, and arithmetic and everything. I can't sing, but I had a good rhythm

01:29:08.000 - 01:29:16.000

band, so I would trade with another teacher and do her math. But when I'd take mine out for PE, this

01:29:16.000 - 01:29:24.000

little boy couldn't turn a somersault. He just didn't have the coordination. And the kids are merciless, I believe.

01:29:24.000 - 01:29:32.000

Ooh, they can be nasty, nasty. So when we came inside, I said, "You know, Ruben can't turn a

01:29:32.000 - 01:29:40.000

somersault, but do you know Ruben can read better than anyone in this class? And I want you to remember that. And I also want you to remember

01:29:40.000 - 01:29:48.000

that each one of you can do something better than anybody else." I said, "Remember

01:29:48.000 - 01:29:58.000

that." And I believe that to this day. I think

01:29:58.000 - 01:30:06.000

how many teachers out there that don't belong out there. It really upsets me. And I get mad at George Bush when he says every child's

01:30:06.000 - 01:30:14.000

got to read by the time he's in the third grade. [laughs] What do you feel?

01:30:14.000 - 01:30:22.000

Well, there's some children who aren't ever going to be able to do all of that, particularly read.

01:30:22.000 - 01:30:32.000

Some of them can't. How many years then did you teach school? Thirty. Total of thirty. Halfway

01:30:32.000 - 01:30:40.000

around the world and at Randolph, 15, 16 years. I loved it. Was your husband stationed at Randolph

01:30:40.000 - 01:30:48.000

when you were teaching? No. He died. He died. Do you want to talk about that, Betty?

01:30:48.000 - 01:30:56.000

Not really. He's been dead 26 years now. Right. And his son's

01:30:56.000 - 01:31:04.000

I'm sorry my grandson's never got to know him. But my sons know their dad. Tell me

01:31:04.000 - 01:31:12.000

about your sons. Well, they're different as night and day. [laughs] Tell me, what's the older

01:31:12.000 - 01:31:20.000

one's name? David. Tell me about David. They're all family. David, Peyton, Shipley. David

01:31:20.000 - 01:31:28.000

was a good student, A, B student. Uh, very good looking.

01:31:28.000 - 01:31:38.000

The girls, he wasn't interested in girls, particularly. And, uh, he went to the

01:31:38.000 - 01:31:46.000

University of Arizona, where I didn't want him to go because the classes are too big and he's a youngster that needed to be in a class where

01:31:46.000 - 01:31:54.000

the teacher had time to work with him. And so, he went one year to the University of Arizona

01:31:54.000 - 01:32:02.000

and was unhappy and so he enlisted. He would not enlist in the Air Force because he did not want any help from his

01:32:02.000 - 01:32:10.000

dad. So he enlisted in the Navy. And then he found out the difference between an officer and enlisted man, which he'd

01:32:10.000 - 01:32:18.000

never experienced before, because we didn't do that. And he served his time in the Navy.

01:32:18.000 - 01:32:26.000

And when he went, when he got back he became a builder. And he had a very successful big building thing.

01:32:26.000 - 01:32:34.000

And then he got a divorce. And it was very bitter. And, uh,

01:32:34.000 - 01:32:42.000

cost him a lot of money. And he became a firefighter at

01:32:42.000 - 01:32:50.000

42. And he, I thought firefighters just squirted water. But boy, they do

01:32:50.000 - 01:32:58.000

more than squirt water, believe me. What they do and the tests they take, they have to pass. Uh,

01:32:58.000 - 01:33:06.000

I had retired by then and I went out and took care of my grandsons. And

01:33:06.000 - 01:33:14.000

he did fine and he's very happy. He'll never be a millionaire. He's married a wonderful girl. He's happy.

01:33:14.000 - 01:33:24.000

And my husband used to tell me you could be digging ditches. You know. And if you're happy digging

01:33:24.000 - 01:33:32.000

ditches, you're a success. And I thought he was crazy. I thought you didn't go to college and get a degree. And the older I get, there are a lot of people who go to

01:33:32.000 - 01:33:40.000

college and get a degree and they don't know doodly squat. Or they might have gone to Princeton or something. And that

01:33:40.000 - 01:33:48.000

opens a big door. My sons went to Arizona up in Flagstaff. As Charlie

01:33:48.000 - 01:33:56.000

says, my one who gets everything easily, he says, "Mom, Princeton might open a door for you sooner than

01:33:56.000 - 01:34:04.000

Flagstaff." But he says, "When you get in there, it's what you can produce." And this kid

01:34:04.000 - 01:34:12.000

makes as much money as any guy who ever graduated from Princeton. He's just, it's what you get out of it

01:34:12.000 - 01:34:20.000

and you're happy. David's happy being a firefighter. And he saves lives. I tell you, some of

01:34:20.000 - 01:34:28.000

the stories he tells me, particularly about little old ladies that are pretty bad little old ladies.

01:34:28.000 - 01:34:36.000

And horrible stories about people. And, um, but he's happy. He's married to a

01:34:36.000 - 01:34:44.000

wonderful girl. And the boys love her. What more can you ask? And maybe that's true.

01:34:44.000 - 01:34:54.000

If you're happy doing what you're doing, you're a success. So I think I was a success because I love teaching school.

01:34:54.000 - 01:35:04.000

And I still hear from some of my students. So. And your other son? My other son is

01:35:04.000 - 01:35:12.000

a political. He, uh, was Vice President of the State Chamber of Commerce.

01:35:12.000 - 01:35:20.000

He doesn't know, he knows everybody's his friend. He knows everybody in town. He's a

01:35:20.000 - 01:35:30.000

charmer. Well, so is David. But, um, Charlie uh, was Vice President

01:35:30.000 - 01:35:38.000

of the State Chamber. He was their chief lobbyist. Uh, and I'm telling you stuff I really

01:35:38.000 - 01:35:46.000

shouldn't be telling you. I mean, after three years and he didn't get the presidency, he he quit.

01:35:46.000 - 01:35:54.000

He said, "I didn't get what I deserved." They brought a man in from Washington who didn't know Dudley Scott. And, uh,

01:35:54.000 - 01:36:04.000

I don't know who it is, but Charlie has some mentor that's a high, mighty man. And he's President of the Arizona Mining

01:36:04.000 - 01:36:12.000

Association now and he's learned about mining. And, um, he also still gets to lobby, which is his love.

01:36:12.000 - 01:36:20.000

And his former mother is the Governor of Arizona. So we're still in politics. And, uh,

01:36:22.000 - 01:36:30.000

That's about it. Yeah, his former mother. His former mother-in-law. Mother-in-law. Um, is the Governor of

01:36:30.000 - 01:36:38.000

Arizona. Yeah, and she's in big, deep, deep kinshi right now. Right. Tell me about the grandchildren. They're wonderful.

01:36:38.000 - 01:36:46.000

The last one is going to graduate the end of May from high school. And he has had to work for everything.

01:36:46.000 - 01:36:54.000

His brother, uh, is, you know, so brilliant. I mean, every test, he can just test way off

01:36:54.000 - 01:37:02.000

the thing and it makes me mad because he treats Colin, you know, like Colin's inferior. And I said, "Colin,

01:37:02.000 - 01:37:10.000

you're doing fine. You're a good average guy and you're going to do great. He wants to be an announcer or something." And he's going to the

01:37:10.000 - 01:37:18.000

State University in Tempe. Now my other son, my first grandson, whose birth was announced

01:37:18.000 - 01:37:26.000

over the loudspeaker at school and I never will get over it, uh, he is

01:37:26.000 - 01:37:34.000

just the most precious thing that I walk the streets. But he is very, very smart too. Always been on the

01:37:34.000 - 01:37:42.000

Honor Society, always the football and all this stuff. And, uh, he wants to be a firefighter.

01:37:42.000 - 01:37:50.000

He went to college for two years and got everything and he's working on his fire science degree and, uh,

01:37:50.000 - 01:37:58.000

he took his test over a year ago for the academy and he was one of 35 selected.

01:37:58.000 - 01:38:06.000

And he's on his second year. He made $140,000 last year. Not that money's important, but his brother

01:38:06.000 - 01:38:14.000

who's a sophomore now and is going to be a mining engineer and is leaving today for Wyoming for this big thing.

01:38:14.000 - 01:38:22.000

Jeff says, "Steven's going to be making more money than I am." And I said, "That isn't the point, Jeff. Money isn't everything." He says, "Well, he's going to

01:38:22.000 - 01:38:30.000

be making more money?" I said, "That doesn't matter. He might be making more money." I said, "You can make more money too. You'll be a captain one of these days."

01:38:30.000 - 01:38:38.000

And blah, blah, blah, blah. And it shocked me that he would be thinking about the money, but this 20-year, 22-year-old kid has bought a house.

01:38:38.000 - 01:38:46.000

A four-bedroom house he's all fixed over. I'm telling you all my family problems. One of the

01:38:46.000 - 01:38:54.000

neatest, best-looking guys and he's just broken up with his girlfriend which I'm glad because he went with her all through high school and I think it's time he went

01:38:54.000 - 01:39:02.000

with somebody else. What makes you proud of those grandchildren? Because they're honest, good kids.

01:39:02.000 - 01:39:10.000

And when they obey orders and they tell you when they go to somebody's house and they're going to go to somebody else's

01:39:10.000 - 01:39:18.000

house, they call and tell you where they are. And you know they're telling you the truth and they aren't running around. You can trust them.

01:39:18.000 - 01:39:26.000

Do any of your children or grandchildren fly or have the urge to fly? I couldn't get

01:39:26.000 - 01:39:34.000

them interested. Dave took them to the academy and went all through up there. Couldn't buy it.

01:39:34.000 - 01:39:42.000

They wore the shirt, you know, "My Grandma Flew in World War II." Dave... I thought that was one of the cutest shirts and he'd wear it all the time

01:39:42.000 - 01:39:50.000

when he was little. So I don't know that it just wasn't there. I know, Betty, that you've been involved

01:39:50.000 - 01:40:02.000

in the WASP organization. Tell me about some of the things that you have done. Were you involved when they were trying to get veteran status?

01:40:02.000 - 01:40:10.000

No. I wasn't one of those. No. But since then I know you were involved

01:40:10.000 - 01:40:18.000

deeply in one of their conventions. Well, our 50th convention, I was chairman of that. Which...

01:40:18.000 - 01:40:26.000

we owe a big debt to the girl in Washington State.

01:40:26.000 - 01:40:34.000

Without her information and charts and everything that she sent to us, it certainly helped us to run

01:40:34.000 - 01:40:42.000

a successful convention here. Plus Randolph was behind me 100 percent

01:40:42.000 - 01:40:50.000

for what we did. And I still haven't heard anybody say that any convention has

01:40:50.000 - 01:40:58.000

been better than ours. And we take great pride in that. What else are you involved in with the WASP

01:40:58.000 - 01:41:06.000

organization? I gave up my endowment chair because I got sick after my brother died and I

01:41:06.000 - 01:41:14.000

didn't feel good. And I was so devastated to lose him. He was the last one in my family.

01:41:14.000 - 01:41:22.000

And I have all these nephews and nieces and... on the Williamson side.

01:41:22.000 - 01:41:30.000

And it's a horrendous job to be the last one left. They expect you to know everything. As far as

01:41:30.000 - 01:41:42.000

the WASP are concerned, I think I did very well. I raised $135,000. And...

01:41:42.000 - 01:41:50.000

I don't like to point any fingers, but there are people who think that they can do better by going to the big companies. But TWU

01:41:50.000 - 01:41:58.000

feels that before you go to a big company that they need to check, you know, it out.

01:41:58.000 - 01:42:06.000

That you're going to approach them. I don't know. I just didn't want to get mixed up anymore with the politics in it. It's everywhere.

01:42:06.000 - 01:42:14.000

And I remember that when I first applied for a teaching job, I thought there won't be any politics in teaching. But it's one of the worst

01:42:14.000 - 01:42:22.000

places in the world for politics. Tell me about some of the things you do as a volunteer now.

01:42:22.000 - 01:42:30.000

I work at Randolph every Wednesday there. I work on a team at church.

01:42:30.000 - 01:42:38.000

On an alter-gail team at church. What do you do at Randolph? I work in the retirees' activities office. We help people who

01:42:38.000 - 01:42:46.000

come in with problems about the money they're supposed to get and advise them where to go.

01:42:46.000 - 01:42:56.000

You'd be amazed how many people don't have anything. And I think you've probably encountered them

01:42:56.000 - 01:43:04.000

in your life. People that have bought things and buy them on time and then they don't have the money. Or they've... I don't

01:43:04.000 - 01:43:12.000

know. But we help people and it makes me happy. I tried going to the Sam Shelter, working there

01:43:12.000 - 01:43:20.000

and I couldn't handle it. I just I couldn't do that. I was going to ask you

01:43:20.000 - 01:43:32.000

what makes you happy? I don't know. I really am happy. I've had a wonderful life.

01:43:32.000 - 01:43:40.000

My grandchildren make me very happy. My sons make me very happy. I wish their father had

01:43:40.000 - 01:43:48.000

lived to see all of it. But that's not to be. Through those sad times, Betty,

01:43:48.000 - 01:43:56.000

how did you get through those times? I'll tell you how I got through. If I hadn't been teaching school, I don't know what I

01:43:56.000 - 01:44:04.000

would have done. You need to have something to take your mind away from. And my

01:44:04.000 - 01:44:12.000

parents were all behind me and the kids were wonderful. And it took me five years

01:44:12.000 - 01:44:20.000

to ever accept this. But if I hadn't been teaching, I certainly would have found something to occupy my mind

01:44:20.000 - 01:44:28.000

to get over the sorrow. You know, when you're just married thirty years, I'll be a widow almost that long pretty soon.

01:44:28.000 - 01:44:36.000

And I haven't any desire to get married again. Maybe someday you'll get that special little

01:44:36.000 - 01:44:44.000

feeling you get. I don't know. I don't expect it. I don't really want it. I'm happy with what I'm doing.

01:44:44.000 - 01:44:58.000

Can you tell me what part church plays in your life? Should I say what part God plays in your life?

01:44:58.000 - 01:45:08.000

Well, you know, my mother used to tell me, "You don't go to church because of the minister." You know,

01:45:08.000 - 01:45:18.000

and I used to go to the church for the minister. And I still go to the church for the minister partly. I don't know.

01:45:18.000 - 01:45:26.000

I can't explain it to you. It just gives me a calm feeling inside when I pray. I've been

01:45:26.000 - 01:45:34.000

brought up to pray when I go to bed and I go to church. And I think bringing

01:45:34.000 - 01:45:42.000

our rector last night was wonderful because he's so young and he's wonderful and he noticed all the children

01:45:42.000 - 01:45:50.000

that were there. Maybe we impressed their minds with something. And that's another benefit of a tattoo

01:45:50.000 - 01:45:58.000

are all the little ones that they brought. And mostly military people. And I love the Air Force.

01:45:58.000 - 01:46:06.000

The Air Force has been good to us and I just it's difficult for me to believe

01:46:06.000 - 01:46:14.000

in God but I try very hard. Of all the things that you have done in your life,

01:46:14.000 - 01:46:22.000

what is the one thing that you're most proud of? My sons. My sons.

01:46:22.000 - 01:46:34.000

They don't have to be millionaires if they're happy doing what they're doing. They're success and they're very happy.

01:46:34.000 - 01:46:44.000

And I guess that's all. What do you think the legacy of the WASP

01:46:44.000 - 01:46:54.000

will be? Well, from the things I hear that they were pioneers, women pioneers and they will get credit

01:46:54.000 - 01:47:02.000

for that. Although I never think of being a pioneer, I just think of being an opportunist. I mean it was

01:47:02.000 - 01:47:10.000

there, not really in opportunities but it was something we could do for our country. But our country

01:47:10.000 - 01:47:20.000

isn't bound like it was back in those days. And what do you think your legacy will be?

01:47:20.000 - 01:47:32.000

I really don't feel I have a legacy except to my family. And they think I'm pretty great.

01:47:32.000 - 01:47:40.000

And that's enough legacy as far as I'm concerned. Betty, as children watch

01:47:40.000 - 01:47:48.000

you talking about your life's history in years to come, what would you like to say

01:47:48.000 - 01:47:56.000

to those children or to your grandchildren that might encourage them to go beyond

01:47:56.000 - 01:48:06.000

the ordinary and to motivate them? It's a very difficult

01:48:06.000 - 01:48:16.000

time to be a child these days. But I think maybe with guidance from their families

01:48:16.000 - 01:48:26.000

they might set a goal when they're very young or find something that interests them particularly. You'll very often find

01:48:26.000 - 01:48:34.000

a child in school who's bored. He isn't challenged, just like my Chris who's so brilliant. He hasn't found himself yet.

01:48:34.000 - 01:48:42.000

And here he is a sophomore in college and he has waited on tables now for about five years

01:48:42.000 - 01:48:50.000

and he loves it. He might be a connoisseur and run a restaurant or own a restaurant or something. But you

01:48:50.000 - 01:48:58.000

have to have a goal or some something that you really want to do.

01:48:58.000 - 01:49:06.000

Like a mother sometimes might force a youngster because she plays golf. You want to be a golfer. And that doesn't always work. They don't want to do that

01:49:06.000 - 01:49:14.000

or something else. But each child eventually I think you'll find a good parent will find something that they're interested

01:49:14.000 - 01:49:22.000

in doing and leave them alone. Just like my mother was afraid of flying but she never discouraged me.

01:49:22.000 - 01:49:30.000

She believed in me and to find a family like that now is very difficult. But to youngsters today

01:49:30.000 - 01:49:38.000

I think that all that they see and hear they need some guidance somewhere

01:49:38.000 - 01:49:46.000

to help them try to make up their minds because I've been trying to help Chris for a long time.

01:49:46.000 - 01:49:56.000

And where do you feel that guidance should come from? From people who love them and care about them.

01:49:56.000 - 01:50:04.000

It might not be a parent. It might be a teacher. It might be a friend, a dear friend.

01:50:04.000 - 01:50:12.000

I'm amazed at some of those things. But there is someone out there who can help them.

01:50:12.000 - 01:50:26.000

What message do you want to say to your grandchildren? I want them to be happy.

01:50:26.000 - 01:50:34.000

And whatever they do to be happy and have a happy life.

01:50:34.000 - 01:50:44.000

I would like them to be successful. I don't care what way. If it's a good, I don't mean

01:50:44.000 - 01:50:52.000

I don't care, but I want something that they believe in and they will be a success in. Whether it's hard labor

01:50:52.000 - 01:51:00.000

or whether it's flying an airplane or skiing or whatever. But somewhere where they will succeed. And I sincerely

01:51:00.000 - 01:51:08.000

believe each child will succeed in something if they have the background and love to push them to care.

01:51:08.000 - 01:51:16.000

I believe that. And I've seen it happen too many times myself.

01:51:16.000 - 01:51:24.000

As we end up here, is there anything that I have left out? Or any story

01:51:24.000 - 01:51:32.000

that you would like to have included? Anything you would like to say? No,

01:51:32.000 - 01:51:40.000

except that I'm very happy and that I still hear from some of my students who are a success or become doctors

01:51:40.000 - 01:51:48.000

who still keep in touch with me. And how does that make you feel when they get that? Wonderful. That's your gratification

01:51:48.000 - 01:51:56.000

from teaching. You don't expect a million dollars. You don't expect a present. You just want them to be happy and succeed

01:51:56.000 - 01:52:04.000

at something. And I still believe that. Each child has something. And that is your legacy.

01:52:04.000 - 01:52:18.000

Well, I guess. I don't know. But I care. Why don't you ask her?

01:52:18.000 - 01:52:26.000

Well, I just had one quick...well, when you left teaching to go into the WASP,

01:52:26.000 - 01:52:34.000

did you leave a teaching job to go into the WASP? Yes. What did you tell your kids that you were teaching at the time?

01:52:34.000 - 01:52:42.000

My children that I was teaching? Aren't these little kids? We're talking third, second, third, fourth grade. How did you explain it to them?

01:52:42.000 - 01:52:50.000

I just told them that I was going back to school. That I was going to learn to fly an airplane.

01:52:50.000 - 01:52:58.000

I hoped, you know, that I was going to go to school like they go to school. And I had to learn all these things. And

01:52:58.000 - 01:53:06.000

I was sorry that I had to leave them because I did love them. I was fortunate in that the superintendent said my job would always be there

01:53:06.000 - 01:53:16.000

in case I didn't make it. So, they will accept that. I mean, they didn't want me to go,

01:53:16.000 - 01:53:24.000

but they care about you as much as you care about them if you're close to them.

01:53:24.000 - 01:53:32.000

There's one little boy told me after two weeks when he was new in my class, he said, "You know," he says, "Ms. Shipley, you aren't so bad after all."

01:53:32.000 - 01:53:40.000

Well, forget it because they'd warned him how strict I was and everything. But you can be strict and still have love

01:53:40.000 - 01:53:48.000

and care for them. Did you hear from any of those kids after you left? Mm-hmm.

01:53:48.000 - 01:53:56.000

How did you hear from them? They wrote to the school and the school forward. The superintendent used to write to me. I have some notes still that he wrote.

01:53:56.000 - 01:54:04.000

He wanted to know what I was doing and I wrote and told him some of the flying we were doing and he read that. It was...

01:54:04.000 - 01:54:14.000

I don't know, I've had a wonderful feeling with what I've done with the people with whom I've worked. What's your favorite word?

01:54:14.000 - 01:54:24.000

Caring. Caring about others. What makes you happiest? What, I would say,

01:54:24.000 - 01:54:32.000

turns you on, gets you excited? To see somebody obtain a goal.

01:54:32.000 - 01:54:40.000

I'm thinking of my grandsons. It makes me real happy. I'm thinking about Stephen right now

01:54:40.000 - 01:54:50.000

driving up to Wyoming all by himself. Like I say, I feel sorry for people who don't have

01:54:50.000 - 01:54:58.000

children or grandchildren. Let me go back and ask you one thing. Now that I know how

01:54:58.000 - 01:55:06.000

special teaching is to you, at the time you decided to go into training to fly, why did

01:55:06.000 - 01:55:14.000

you feel that that was more important than your staying and teaching at that particular time in history?

01:55:14.000 - 01:55:26.000

Well, I... Maybe it was selfish to think about something that I really wanted to do, except I accepted

01:55:26.000 - 01:55:34.000

it, that I was doing it for my country, not just for my class. And if you're doing it for your country, that covers your class

01:55:34.000 - 01:55:42.000

and everybody in it. And that's the way I felt. That it was for everybody. I think that's

01:55:42.000 - 01:55:50.000

a wonderful place to end, Betty. Thank you so much. You've had a wonderful life.

01:55:50.000 - 01:55:58.000

I have. I really have. God's been good to you. He has. I've been very fortunate. And I still

01:55:58.000 - 01:56:06.000

go to church because of the minister. It's my mom. Well, it's okay. I met your minister

01:56:06.000 - 01:56:14.000

and... Well, he had a wonderful time. He really did. And he was so sorry Catherine couldn't

01:56:14.000 - 01:56:22.000

come and they have three little children and this one little boy. And I say, "Gary, now that little boy, you girls are outnumbering him and I don't want him

01:56:22.000 - 01:56:30.000

to be a sissy." And he says, "Oh, no, no, we aren't going to be a sissy." But he says, "They sure do boss him around." And I said, "Well, he'll learn

01:56:30.000 - 01:56:38.000

to stand on his own two feet." But this young man is... He's exceptional.

01:56:38.000 - 01:56:44.000

Yeah, he seemed to be. He's got a good sense of humor. Oh, a terrific sense of humor.