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I'm going to start. I really... I'm rolling. Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish. We're in the home of Eleanor Brown in Victoria, Texas. It is April 17th. It's ready for me now? We're ready for you. Well, Deanie introduced me as Eleanor Brown, but I have not gone by Eleanor since I was

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born I think, but my friends, close friends and family all call me Mickey. I was supposed to have been a boy and be named for my grandfather whose name was Michael. Instead I was named for my grandmother who was Ella. I was born in Tampico, Mexico in 1922 and I was the first of my brothers and sisters to be born in the hospital down there. Most of them were born

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in the family home, which was a very small house. And my oldest sister, who was the first born, of course, they were in a two-room shack in Tampico. And all of us were born in Tampico, where my parents had met and married. I think my father went down there in 1912 or 1913. I'm not quite sure of the date. He was living in Chicago at the time. He had been born in

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Omaha, Nebraska, and his parents were out there for a brief time. They had gone out there to work. And it apparently did not prove satisfactory. I suspect my grandmother could not stand it. She was from Chicago, as was my grandfather. And they moved back to Chicago where my father was raised. And during the oil boom in Mexico, my father was lured down

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there by I think a brother-in-law and he was single. They went down there and Tampico was a very close knit community. They had a colony, an American colony down there and it consisted mostly of people in the oil business. And my father was, I think he dabbled in a number of enterprises down there. But he ultimately became a land man, and the land man is one

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who goes out and secures leases and permission to explore and drill. And he went through all the jungles and places like that, and I always thought it was interesting. He refused. He was told he should have a pistol for protection, and he said, "I don't want to carry a pistol. I have a gun and somebody could think that I am there for other purposes." And he never

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traveled with a weapon of any kind in all the jungles and things he went. And my father met my mother with some of the social activities that were going on. She had gone down there because her brother, who was a petroleum engineer, was down there. And they went down just to visit, she and my grandmother. And when they went down, there was all the whirl of parties

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and things like this, and my father met mother, and I think he must have been smitten. She was a very beautiful, vibrant individual. And he would come to call, and my father had flaming red hair and many, many freckles. And the Chinese house boy, where my mother was staying with her brother and her mother was there also, the Chinese house boy would

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introduce him as "Mr. Mucho, Mucho, Mucho," meaning the one with all the freckles. And she always laughed about that. But it was evidently a very whirlwind romance and they were married and it must have been a very good ceremony. They were married three times. They had a posting of the bands and the formal civil ceremony and then they were married

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by a Presbyterian minister in Tampico. And it must have stuck very well because my parents were married for well over sixty years before my father died. I thought that was a good thing. My father was Roman Catholic and he had to give up his church in order to marry my mother because he said he felt she would be better equipped to raise the children and

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she was a staunch Presbyterian and he didn't think, well I think he knew she would not be able to switch to the Roman Catholic faith, but his family was understandably upset that he had given up his church for someone they didn't even know. But in short time I think that was all taken care of when they finally met mother and approved of her. But all of

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my brothers and sisters except my youngest sister were born in Tampico. And we lived there until 1926. At that time my oldest sister was ready to go into high school and the American school in Tampico only went up to high school. And my father was faced with sending five children up for boarding school or moving. And I'm glad he opted to move because my

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my friends and other acquaintances who remained. They were sort of neither fish nor fowl. They weren't American citizens, they weren't Mexican citizens, and most of them came up to boarding school and they were just, you know. But when my parents moved up in 1926, then my youngest sister was born in San Antonio. So she's the only, we said she's the only

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American with a bunch because the rest of us were born on farm soil. But after we moved to San Antonio, I started school in kindergarten and I'm not sure how old I was, probably around five because I was sixteen when I graduated from high school. So you started that in San Antonio?

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I started in San Antonio and I went from kindergarten through high school graduation all on the same school campus. Alamo Heights School was all on one piece of property and it was almost brand new school at that time.

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Let me go back and ask you about your religious upbringing in Mexico. I don't remember a great deal of it because I was only four when I came stateside. But I was baptized by the Presbyterian minister so there was obviously a Protestant church there.

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All of us were, I mean my other brothers and sisters were all enrolled in the American school. Where did you live? Were you on a compound?

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Not an enclosed compound. there was an area in there called the American Colony, but it wasn't enclosed. And my parents ultimately built a very beautiful, large, two-story, concrete -- it looks concrete in the pictures -- probably adobe brick or something, but it was a very American-looking house.

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It wasn't Spanish looking at all. And I do remember it had a big white wall around it, and that's possibly, I remember that from the pictures that I've seen of it. But we had a very interesting life, and of course lots of Mexican servants, and I had

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a Mexican, you know, nanny. And a mother would tell me, "I don't remember much about this," but the nanny was pretty much in charge of me, totally, and she would take me everywhere. And she would take me out on the streetcars, ride around, and I guess she would go shopping

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or maybe it was just on excursions. It was apparently quite common, I don't know. But I was very toe-headed and in Mexico it's good luck to touch the blonde heads of these. And Mother said that I hated that and they would come up and touch me and she said I

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would shake my fist at them and protest that they were touching my blonde head. But I don't have any recollection, of course, of that. But -- And why did they come back to the States?

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Because my father was looking down the future and seeing that he would have all these children to send off to boarding school, and he just felt it was advisable to come back. Do you know how you got back? Yes, I suspect we came back by train because they made many trips back and forth to the

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United States. And I know one in particular when my younger, well he's older, but the second son in the family, was badly injured in his eye with a pop gun accident and he shot a pencil into his eye. And they couldn't save the eye, but they rushed him up stateside on the train.

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I can't imagine what a terrible journey that must have been for them. But they went later to Chicago for further assistance on it and stayed with my grandparents in Chicago. They had the rest of the children with them too, but that was before my time when this happened because I think Teddy was about four when that accident happened.

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Kelly: Okay. So now you're in San Antonio. Belcher: But we're in San Antonio. My mother was born and raised in San Antonio. Although My grandfather was a staunch Presbyterian. My grandmother never joined the Presbyterian Church, but Mother was raised in it and she

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began teaching Sunday school, I think, when she was about fourteen, teaching younger students there. And she was one of the oldest members of the First Presbyterian Church when she died later, And she was still teaching there.

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So she was very active. Tell us about starting school in San Antonio. Oh, I started school in kindergarten and I think that I skipped a grade somewhere, but I don't really know and I haven't checked my records, but I either had two years of

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de la escuela, pero la escuela fue muy feliz, por lo que yo estaba preocupada. Era muy pequeña por las estándares. Mi clase de graduación de la escuela de alta edad tenía menos de 100 personas y la escuela de alta edad tenía aproximadamente 300 personas. Entonces, todos nosotros en el mismo campus.

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Y eso fue muy bueno. It was really nice because you knew the kids in the school from high school on down. They frequently had all school functions. How did you get to school?

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Walked a lot because we did have a car early on in San Antonio. It was a big seven passenger Studebaker. I can still see the cardinal jump seats on the side so all of us could fit because our household consisted of my parents my grandmother and

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the six children and So it was a it was a full full house my grandmother who was a widow lived with my parents from day one From the day they were married. She was part of the household and it was a very relationship. It really was. My grandmother was extremely helpful to Mother, and Mother

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said that she had all the fun and Goosey, that was my grandmother's nickname, Goosey did all the discipline and work, Mother called it. Tell me, as you were growing up, what was your favorite holiday and how did you celebrate? I suspect Christmas was one of the favorite ones.

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And I have a lot of recollection of that because the house that we were living in was a big two-story house and no one could come down at Christmas morning until everybody was up. And with my older sister being old enough to go out, she was reluctant to get up. And we had to endure waiting because we all had to come down the stairs.

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But I remember coming down those stairs, it was big two-story, you come down and there was a landing and then you came down the rest of the way. And to stand on the landing and look down and see this array of gifts. And even though we didn't get the tons of gifts that children get now, they were always

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very special gifts. But with six children, there were a lot of gifts and a big Christmas tree and everything like that. And, of course, church played a big part in that too because all of us were involved in

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the pageants and things that they had at church. I remember mother being Joseph at one pageant where she had long hair and she had pulled around this way for her beard. It was unique.

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But I remember participating in a lot of those pageants and being an angel and mother had made the wings that we wore. You talk about beautiful wasp wings. These were individual feathers that she had made on these enormous wings that stood as

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tall as we were, like this. And I don't know how she hooked them on us, but I still see those wings. And of course she had lots of pictures. Mother liked to dress us up in costumes and costumes were popular at the feits that they had in the colony in Mexico. And she's got some of the rarest outfits in all of our life. Later on we were in the

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Fiesta Fate, which is the Battle of Flowers celebration, and there was always a special fate there, a dance thing. And I can remember being very small, and my youngest sister and I were grass, and we were dressed in little grassy outfits. And I remember my sister sleeping, fell asleep on the stage. I think she was two and I was, of course, not much older then.

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But Mother loved dressing people up and things like that. But I had a very, really happy childhood because where we lived, Alamo Heights was still a very small community and we had free run of anywhere. We were not confined. And my father, At this point, he had of course changed his occupation. He was no longer in the oil business.

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Well basically, I think he was still sort of involved in it, but when he moved up, my recollection is that's when he joined a real estate firm, and they were developing Terrell Hills properties. And the crash wiped everything out. My husband's desk over here It was my father's desk and one of the few things that he rescued when the crash hit.

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And we had, during the Depression, some very lean years. I remember, you know, mother having to tell the grocer where we had a charge account, could she please charge one more thing on there and things like this because he would say, "You know, we can't carry you any further, Ms. McLernan." But everybody was

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in the same state. And my uncles in Mexico did assist us by sending funds to my grandmother at the time. But we didn't know we were in a depression, you know, as children, not really. I remember learning to be very careful. I didn't want to ask my parents for a nickel to buy notebook paper, and I think maybe that's why I write so squinchy these days. I learned

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very small, but we didn't feel deprived. We didn't have a car for a while, so we rode the bus and the streetcar a lot, but there was a lot of free things during the Depression. The city ran dance classes, ballet classes, and things like that. The swimming pools were free. We swam at Brackenridge Park, which at the time had artesian water flowing

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into it. And of course it's no longer operating. The pool is still there, but not for swimming. But it was artesian water. You could see it coming out of the ground and gushing into there. It was marvelous. Crystal clear. And we spent a lot of time there and at the zoo, which was also free. And so we had freedom to go out and be children. And the only thing

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that would bring us home was my dad's whistle. He had a powerful two-fingered whistle, and you could hear it for a mile. And along that supper time, he'd whistle and we'd come running. But we had a big barn in the back of the house, a carriage, sort of a carriage house and my uncle and grandfather had put all the railroad trains, model trains, up

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in the loft there. And the only way you could get there was up a ladder with, you know, steps about this far, just nailed to the wall to get up there. And somebody had removed one of the lower steps, so you couldn't get up there until you were really big enough to operate trains. That was the only way to get up there. But we spent lots of time up

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in that attic, lots of time climbing trees. Had a neighbor that had ponies, and so I had ponies to ride. And Terrell Hills was under development, and that was what, you know, went at the crash, but there were a lot of beautiful houses, and there still are gorgeous places up there. But all the streets had been laid, and it's very hilly, beautiful. And

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we roller skated on all those streets and sidewalks, rode our wagons down the hills, and not much traffic on them. It was very safe. And bicycled up there and there were a lot of vacant lots to go play and we would, I remember building little thatch houses and shrubs and things like that. I was a terrible tomboy. I loved to climb trees.

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activity frowned upon by my parents I'm sure. The barn had a tin roof, came down this way pretty steep and then sloped out this way and then dropped off a long way and we would come sliding down when the tin wasn't too hot, sliding down and shooting off that roof and grabbing the limb of a chinaberry tree to drop us the rest of the way down.

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I don't know I was flying early on I guess. No I hadn't even thought about flying at that point. But I graduated very young and the depression was still on. It was 1939 when I graduated.

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Tell me about school. What did you study? They had a very good curriculum and I had some marvelous teachers. In elementary school I had a natural science teacher, we called it nature studies at the

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time, and he was marvelous and he later wrote some books and he was Mr. Gabriel I think was his name. And I had a first grade teacher who was Miss Littlefield, who was also excellent. All of my teachers were very good. And we had music and art at the elementary level. And in the fifth grade, we even had drama and speech, which I thought was remarkable.

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And in junior high we had the normal English and math and history and Spanish language was offered in the eighth grade. High school was ninth, tenth, and eleventh, and Spanish continued on into there. And the sciences came along.

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And I was not very good in math. I mean, it was not the best thing that I liked. And I did okay in it, but it was not my favorite subject. So when I got into high school, I took the requisite math, algebra, and geometry, and

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what not. And I took biology. And I was steered clear by the -- we didn't really have counselors, but they just had -- they sort of made a division somewhere along the line.

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And I remember being asked, you know, "Do you expect to go to college?" And I really didn't expect to go to college. I had no desire to go to college, but I think the financial situation was probably part of that because my older sister was a marvelous student, excellent student, and she won a

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a scholarship to Rice, but she couldn't take advantage of it because it wasn't big enough scholarship to do anything with. And you paid her tuition and stuff like that, but it was during the Depression, and so she was not able to take advantage of it. So she went to what was called San Antonio College, Bob's home now. She went to San Antonio

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College for a couple of years and then she went to work as a secretary. Math was not a favorite. Biology was a favorite, history was a favorite, and I really enjoyed both of those. I love my Spanish classes. I was in the band and I played the clarinet because it was the only instrument that we had at the house. My brother had played the

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clarinet and he no longer needed it, so it was there and so I learned to play the clarinet. The school gave me my lessons. The band director gave free lessons. And I started the clarinet in junior high and I played it all the way through high school. And I enjoyed it thoroughly. I don't know how well I played competently, but not -- I also was --

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>> Tell me what the band did in high school. Did you march? >> The band -- it was a marching band. We participated in the fiesta parades every year,

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and then the fiesta parades were really very long. It was a lot of marching in a lot of hot sun. We went to band contests around, and I remember one I was still in junior high, we went to Beeville for some contest and it was an overnight thing

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and they had housed us in various houses. And the house I got, because I was the smallest, and I was very small, I slept on top of a cedar chest that had a padding on it. That was where I slept at that house.

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And that's by one recollection of going down there for the band contest and spending the night on Cedar Test. But as I was in junior high school at that time, but we played at all the football games, so it was very exciting.

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And we marched at all the football games. And in high school there was also a pep squad, but I was in the band as opposed to being in the pep squad. And I was looking at some of the old pictures and I think every single person in my class

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was either in the band or the pep squad or on the football team. I don't think there was a spectator among them. Which, you're running out of tape. Bands were full because it was from kindergarten through high school.

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And so the other classes were there, but as each class graduated, there was another class moving in. But I know my class, I was looking in the book and I was wondering as I was reading the thing, there were precious few people in my class that were not involved there in

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one way or the other. Tell me, in growing up in school, who were your role models? Probably several of my teachers. Both of them were my Spanish teachers, but one of them was a close family friend. He was a doctor and he was later the pediatrician that took

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care of my children as they were born. But the Ramsdell, she was a Spanish teacher at the school and I admired her greatly. I had many Sunday school teachers that I admired very much. They were all women, but they were very dedicated and they gave me instruction in the Bible and morality and the whole ball of wax that I think is very critical. A firm

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Foundation and I think that I loved to read as a child and that was fostered. I'm still very timid about libraries because I think I must have had a bad experience in learning how to use a library early on. So I'm still timid about using libraries. Now that they're computerized, I'm even worse. The card catalog I can handle, the rest I don't like. But

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when I look back on my education, I had really one of the better educations that I think were around, or maybe all the schools were that way, because I find now the freshmen going off to college and even the sophomores were not as well grounded in knowledge as I was back then, particularly in the English language.

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Do you remember at that time what your goals were? You knew you weren't going to college. What did you -- I didn't have any particular goals. I don't know why I didn't, but I really didn't. I I don't know that I was expecting to do anything and I knew I couldn't go to college so I

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wasn't necessarily steered that way and the school was steering people to college, particularly some of the top notch students. I was a good student but I would not say I was a top all-A student in junior high and all. I was what they called an E student which was excellent, but in high school, as I say, my grades were A's and B's, but those that

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were steered to college were all A's. But I had never evinced an interest in it, and I think that's another reason why I was steered that way. And girls at that time weren't in physics and chemistry as much as they are now. There were a lot of them that were in those classes, but there were a lot more that were not. And I was given home economics.

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We had home economics also in junior and senior high. So we had, you know, a pretty full plate. But my grandmother did me probably the best favor that could have been given. She gave me, I think it was approximately six months in business school. And I went there following a whole free summer.

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The year I graduated, I went to Chicago and spent the summer with my cousins up there, whom I had never met before. But it was a grand exchange program. My sister Nancy, who was several years older than I am, was very artistic and she wanted to study art further. She managed to get to New York to study art there and she wanted to come home at one occasion

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And my brother, who also did not go to college, the younger of the two brothers, I'll backtrack. My oldest brother was sent to A&M and later to OU in Oklahoma City by my bachelor uncle, who was an oil man in Tampico still. And he sent George "Hawkey" Jorge was his name from Mexico, and it got Americanized

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to Hawkey, and some people called him Hawkeye, but he was Hawkey Jorge to us. And he got his petroleum engineering degree there. But my next brother did not particularly want to go to college. And he, Ted always says, "I'm not much of a student."

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And I'm not sure what he did initially after he graduated. I think he just, you know, worked around doing various things. But he ultimately ended up in business with my father as a salesman, a very good salesman. But then my sister was in New York.

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But Ted at the time had been working for my father and one of the companies that my dad represented was Elwell Parker, lift trucks and things, in Chicago. And they wanted Teddy to come to work up there so he would get a feeling of the equipment and stuff.

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So, Teddy had to get to Chicago. My sister was in New York and wanted to come home. And my grandfather, who was now living in San Antonio, wanted to go back to Chicago to see some of his other family.

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We piled into our car, which was a 1939 Ford that my uncle in Tampico had given my grandmother. And there was my grandfather, who smoked big black cigars. There was my brother, Ted. There was my mother.

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There was my little sister who was then twelve and me, all piled in that car, and we drove from San Antonio to Chicago. I am sure we stopped someplace along the way, but motels were few and far between then. I have a vague recollection of stopping in a tourist home of some variety.

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And we continued on up there and I went to my aunt's home and she had a daughter the same age as my little sister and the two mothers decided, "Wouldn't it be great just to exchange children?" My sister came in from New York on the train.

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My brother was with us. We found him a place to live in downtown Chicago in the Y, I think. And I was staying with my aunt and uncle and their children. They had twins, a boy and a girl, who were my age.

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And I spent the happiest, most delightful summer there. But in three days' time, my mother and my aunt washed clothes, packed clothes, and then the entourage went back to San Antonio. And I think they drove straight through to San Antonio just like we probably driven straight

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through up there. But I always think about that summer because I had such a great time. I came back home on the train, and although I had ridden on a train as a child, this was my first independent train trip down, and I remember it was the excitement of the travel

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back home. I have no idea how my little young cousin returned. may have come down and gotten her, I don't know. Did you go to business school?

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I went to business school and I came home from that summer. And as I was saying earlier, that was probably the best thing that ever happened to me because it's given me a skill that has bailed us out and kept us going all the time. And I use it all the time in my personal life as well.

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But I was well grounded in dictation system. I was an excellent typist. I learned how to use the then business machines of the day, the adding machines and things of that sort. Not very good at those now, but that skill carried me through. My first jobs were just small jobs. Probably the longest at that time was at Frost Brothers in San Antonio, which

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was a major ladies department store there. And I served in two capacities. I worked with the bridal consultant as a secretary. I also was a sales clerk. So silk stockings, when And you showed people stockings, this was before nylons, you would put your hand in them to demonstrate how beautiful they were.

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And it was such an elegant store, I loved working there, worked in lingerie. I was also used as a model frequently because I was lithe and thin and they liked it. And I participated in a lot of the fashion shows that they put on at the St. Anthony Hotel.

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And when I left there, I went to work for three lawyers, Felty, Allen, and Peace. And that was a very unique experience. My salary was really great. I made twelve dollars a week.

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My kids think that I am out of my mind. You made how much?" I said, "I made $48 a month." And that was my salary. Sometimes I didn't get paid because I was very timid about asking and the lawyers were very forgetful. But I was doing the work of a legal secretary for $12 a week. And I was carrying stuff back

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and forth to the courthouse. I worked on the 29th floor of the Smith Young Tower, which in the breeze. You could feel the building moving. It was just delightful. Were you living at home? No.

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Were you right? Okay. You want to know if I went on summer vacations or anything of that sort? Not as people usually describe summer vacations. We went to Comfort, Texas many times because my mother's closest friend in childhood as

00:40:57.860 - 00:41:20.860

well as in her adult life, and all of her close friends were our aunts. I mean, I've got lots of aunts. But we would go up to see Aunt Zula, and her mother lived in Comfort. So we would go up there and spend time with them on the weekends.

00:41:21.200 - 00:41:31.280

And I can remember spending the night in that little country house. It was near the—it wasn't the Guadalupe River. There's another—Cypress Creek that runs through. It ran through the property.

00:41:31.820 - 00:41:49.600

So we swam in Cypress Creek and we swung off the rope swings. And I can remember going and spending the night there and there were daddy long legs shimmering in the corners. Are you familiar with daddy long legs?

00:41:50.000 - 00:41:58.060

Well, they just get up there and they shake. And they would be in the bathroom. They would be everywhere. And I hated those.

00:41:58.180 - 00:42:18.960

You had to shake your nightgown out good before you would put it on. So we'd go to Comfort. We went to Kerrville many times to take my brothers to Y camp and things like that. I remember swimming in the Guadalupe up there as a child and sitting in that lovely clear

00:42:19.180 - 00:42:29.060

water eating watermelon. We've got pictures in the photo album with all of us with these great big slices of watermelon dripping off. It's the best place to eat watermelon is in the water.

00:42:29.100 - 00:42:54.540

Do you remember what your swimsuit was like? Do you want to tell us about it? They were very-- my early swimsuits were down to my knees. They were black, most of them, and one piece with wide straps at the top.

00:42:55.820 - 00:43:14.580

And I can remember a very particular one when I was about twelve, and I showed you that picture. It was in one of my books there. When we went back to Tampico, and I think that was in probably thirty-five maybe.

00:43:16.100 - 00:43:22.880

Maybe I was a little older than that. Anyway, I looked like I was about twelve. No particular figure then. I was very flat.

00:43:23.960 - 00:43:48.400

But I can remember the suit I had there. Very attractive, two-tone. The bottom was one color, had a belt to it, and then the straps and all that. But they were always very, very attractive suits. They were all one piece, which when I look back at the old pictures, I thought they were really much better looking than the things that are being worn nowadays.

00:43:48.400 - 00:44:15.880

Tell me about the trip when you went back to Tampico. We were probably there about six weeks. My grandmother went with us. My brother Ted and my sister Nancy were both teenagers and driving, and they drove one

00:44:15.720 - 00:44:47.120

car and my mother and grandmother and my younger sister and I were in the other car and we drove from San Antonio. And then there was a flood that year and we couldn't go any further than Victoria, Mexico. That's I think below Monterey. And we took the train from there. And I remember one instance, and I always laugh when I think about this because

00:44:47.160 - 00:45:12.660

I was teased about it for a long time among the family. I can't imagine nowadays eating in a place where we ate at the railroad station. But we had driven down there and the road was so rough driving as far as Victoria. We had picnic lunches with us, but I remember that the milk that we had with us was like butter when we got there. It had been shaken.

00:45:13.860 - 00:45:47.280

But in the restaurant while we waited for the train, we ordered something to eat. And I ordered a custard pie. And I do not know why I would have thought caraway seeds would be in a custard pie, but I asked my mother, "Do caraway seeds have legs on them?" So you know what was in my pie. And we ate that meal in that restaurant and I guess we all

00:45:47.340 - 00:46:10.620

survived. I don't remember being sick, but we spent the time in my uncle's lovely home. We had what I call an Eastern salt shaker house, not suitable at all for the climate in Tampico. And why in the world somebody in that early settlement built that kind of a house, I'll

00:46:10.760 - 00:46:25.620

never know because it didn't have the proper cross ventilation. It was very hot, very closed in. It was a very pretty house if you had it in another climate. But that's where we spent the summer.

00:46:26.120 - 00:46:39.900

And there were so many mosquitoes that as soon as the sun went down, you didn't dare venture out. And I remember big avocado trees in the yard and the fruit just falling down. You had to watch where you stepped because there was so much fruit you couldn't even

00:46:39.920 - 00:47:00.880

eat all of it. Wading through squashed avocados is not the best thing. There was a lovely country club there where we all went swimming and socialized with the other kids that were friends of my parents, their children. It was a lovely summer down

00:47:00.960 - 00:47:27.060

there and I think that my brother and sister took off on other things. My uncle had a boat and we went out on the Panico River into this jungly thing where we picked the mangoes off the trees as we would go underneath there. And I remember swimming in that river. You would swim just to get the mango juice off of you. And we went fishing.

00:47:29.020 - 00:47:56.660

And back to my early days in Mexico, Mother was an avid swimmer. She loved to swim. My father hated the water. He had a bad experience as a child. His father threw him into Lake Michigan to teach him how to swim and he came up underneath a float and he never went in the water after that. He was so shocked by what happened to him. But Mother had always

00:47:56.920 - 00:48:20.900

been a swimmer and loved it. And from day one she had us down there in this big lake. We called it the lagoon. I was taken down there when I was an infant and taught to swim. She had us in the water right away.

00:48:22.580 - 00:48:43.840

We swam a lot in the lagoon when I went back as a child later. Mother taught us all the love of water and I still love to swim. The other trip we went to frequently was we went to New Braunfels to swim in the Comal River and the rapids up there.

00:48:45.980 - 00:49:20.560

I loved going there. Kelly: Now we are back to you being a secretary for the three attorneys. Becky: Oh, went for the attorneys. And about that time, it was pre-war at that time, and I took a civil service exam and passed it, and I got a job working for civil service

00:49:22.140 - 00:49:42.280

after that. And that gave me really what I called a livable wage. I don't remember quite how much I was getting paid, but it was far and above the forty-eight dollars a month that I was afraid to ask the lawyers sometimes for my salary because I was also keeping their And I knew how much money was in the bank and there wasn't any what was happening

00:49:42.900 - 00:50:00.080

They just weren't putting anything in that account. It was all going into their pockets and I was doing the books and I'd say well, it's not enough money for my check and they were busy lawyers and I Know on one occasion I went for about a month without a check, but it wasn't

00:50:00.960 - 00:50:19.620

Critical because I was living at home. You asked that question. It was I living home. Yes, and My parents wanted no remuneration at all From us we all helped with household chores and things but many of my friends parents required

00:50:20.940 - 00:50:35.040

That when they went to work they paid Thing but my dad never asked that We'd go to his desk drawer to get the stamps we needed for the letter. So we wanted to mail I didn't know you bought stamps for a long time

00:50:36.040 - 00:50:57.460

But During the time you were working. What was your social life like was it? Oh Through the church was it a lot of it was through the church And in high school we had a very close-knit group from the church which was different group than my

00:50:58.580 - 00:51:25.580

School group because it was a citywide group and I had a lot of friends who were from Jefferson High School and things. And back then, sororities and fraternities were sanctioned and they were very much a part of life. And when I look back on it, I think, "Well, I guess we were kind of cruel because not everybody can be in it." You know, they were exclusive.

00:51:27.460 - 00:51:43.620

And I don't know what determined the exclusivity of it because it wasn't financial or anything of that sort, it was just you were either that group or you weren't that group. And when I look back on it, I think it was probably just as well they outlawed them in high school anyway.

00:51:44.060 - 00:52:13.160

But I belonged to two. She belonged to the Beta Tau Zeta, which was just a social group of young women who were were in, I think they were out of school at this point. And I think there were about fifteen of them originally. But it perpetuated and it kept on going down through the generations

00:52:13.400 - 00:52:37.440

until it was outlawed. But Mother was one of the, I guess you'd call her a charter member of, and it was a strictly social club. And I don't think that, her day they had initiations, but of course we went to initiations which were too lengthy and too horrible. I remember having to wear my hair bobby pinned and I had long hair, about down to here most

00:52:37.440 - 00:53:02.480

of the time. As a child I had very long hair and I kept my braids until I was in high school, but then I cut them off. But my hair was about down to here. But we plastered it down with bobby pins. If you can imagine three packages of bobby pins from here to there, a bow on your hair, no makeup, no belts on your dresses, silly stuff like that. Black stockings in

00:53:02.540 - 00:53:34.260

one case. In the other case it was black stockings and an orange bow in this one because that was their colors. And the male counterpart in my mother's day were the high steppers I think they called them. And that was also still going on. But the other one that I belonged to was the Thetas, and that was strictly Alabama Heights girls. And there were two other alternate

00:53:34.340 - 00:54:01.900

clubs, another citywide one, the Emmyses, and I have no idea what their origin was because mother was one of the oldest ones there. But they were very fun clubs. We enjoyed it. We had weekly meetings just to get together, and we had spring dances and Christmas dances, so it was very social and fun. The dances were always at the country club and with bands,

00:54:02.000 - 00:54:24.040

live bands. Did you have anybody special at that time? No. I didn't date a great deal in high school. I had lots of male friends, but I wasn't dating any. Afterwards, I dated some of my brother's friends who were also just good

00:54:24.100 - 00:54:51.040

friends of mine. I remember my date to the high school prom was just a boy that I knew knew, he was one of the football players, and he had broken legs. So we didn't do much dancing with a broken leg. But I was pleased I had a date for the prom, because I don't think all the girls did. But I really didn't date in that sense when I was in high school.

00:54:51.820 - 00:55:23.300

After high school, I did a lot of dating because San Antonio was a military town. And in '41, prior to the war, there were three military bases, Randolph, Kelly, and Brooks. So that town was crawling with flying cadets. And they had a big party for every incoming class at Randolph. And I do not know who the arbiter of who got invited to those parties, but there

00:55:23.360 - 00:55:55.140

was a group of women in San Antonio who screened a lot of girls, and most of us were friends. And a lot of them were girls who went on and made their debuts. A lot of my friends were socialites. A lot of them not. But there was a lot of activity, parties, because that tea dance was very popular with all those incoming young men, and those are the ones you ended

00:55:55.200 - 00:56:20.220

up dating. Of course, they rolled on through San Antonio and were gone. But dating was no problem, and I dated a lot. I really did. Kelly: When did you start working for the Civil Service in Hoyer? I started at Kelly Field, which at this point was still sort of split.

00:56:21.640 - 00:56:40.160

It was still an advanced training base, but that was phased out pretty quickly, and it became an air repair depot. I went to work there, and I went to work for the chief engineer, who was in charge of the entire engineering department.

00:56:41.480 - 00:57:23.940

It was a tremendous air depot and they were doing a lot of modifications on aircraft because we were supplying all of the military planes for the war in Europe at that time and of and subsequently to Asia as well. But I was working in the office as Colonel Ott's personal secretary and I also worked for a gentleman whose name was Barney Van Horn and he was

00:57:24.040 - 00:57:51.600

the civilian engineering officer. And so I worked very closely with him. At the time, I had just started flying, and I was introduced to flying by my brother-in-law, who I dearly loved. He and I were long, staunch friends, all from the time he and my sister first married until

00:57:51.680 - 00:58:10.080

his death some years ago. But Bill and I were just very good friends. And Bill was in the field artillery, and he had learned to fly, and he was a spotter pilot for the artillery as part of it.

00:58:10.820 - 00:58:34.260

And I remember he came home from Fort Sill to San Antonio. I don't know whether my sister was living at the house, because Bill had been, during the war he was in and out of places and I know she lived at home as did my other sister who was married and had a small child when her husband went overseas. Bill was not overseas

00:58:34.420 - 00:58:54.600

but he wasn't home so Nancy was there but he came home and he took me for the first flight I'd ever had. And we went out to Stinson Field and he took me up in a Piper Cub and I was hooked right from that very first flight.

00:58:57.200 - 00:59:15.480

It was in '42, 1942, and I started flying lessons right after that. And I started at Stinson Field. And I was tickled. My mother was always very interested in what we did.

00:59:18.220 - 00:59:41.900

And my sisters always said that when I came along, Mother was either terribly lenient with me or she was just tired from restricting them because I did not have any restrictions basically placed on me. I mean I had I had rules like all of us did and and I'll call it curfew

00:59:41.900 - 01:00:01.260

We didn't call it curfew back then, but you know, they expected you to be back home at such a time But mother I was wanting to know what? We were involved in and so when I started Said I wanted to take flying lessons. She said well, I want to see where you're taking him

01:00:02.260 - 01:00:24.400

So I drove her out to Stinson one day and she sat patiently while I took my flying lesson and Then after she had seen where I was going she said that's fine and she never went back again, but she Accepted the fact that I was going to and the flying came very slowly because

01:00:25.800 - 01:00:44.260

At that time it was eight dollars an hour for instruction and My salary wasn't stretching that far when I got this the Civil Service I could do a little more flying

01:00:45.680 - 01:01:01.080

But at $8 an hour, it was slow going so it was a long time but somewhere along the line I Had heard about the wasp and I really wanted to get in there but back to what I was doing

01:01:01.080 - 01:01:28.240

for these two gentlemen engineers. I was around a lot of aircraft because of the nature of their work. And one day they called me into the office and I thought, "Uh-oh, what's going on?" And they said, "We want to ask you a question. Would you be willing to be a guinea pig?" And I thought, "What kind of a guinea pig are you wanting me to be?"

01:01:28.240 - 01:01:46.800

And they had women working in the assembly lines, in engine repair, and body work and all this. They did not have anybody in the flight test hangar at all, and they were not sure whether women ought to be out there.

01:01:48.320 - 01:02:03.040

And they wanted to know if I would be willing to go out and work in flight tests. And I said, "I do not know anything about an airplane." And they both said, "Well, you fly, do not you?" I said well, yes, but I said that doesn't mean I know anything about working on an airplane. We'll teach you

01:02:04.560 - 01:02:22.060

And I said if I don't like it, can I come back to my desk in here? Yes, I Went out there and wild horses could not have dragged me back I loved being in flight test and

01:02:22.910 - 01:02:48.720

Even if I didn't have the foggiest notion initially how to be a mechanic. By the time I left there, I was a pretty good mechanic. My actual term out there was called General Mechanics Helper. But I had all my own tools and it was just marvelous to be able to go to the tool crib and check out whatever you wanted. And I had

01:02:48.740 - 01:03:20.440

a beautiful set of tools and I had a lovely leather pouch around my waist to carry them in and I had a crew chief who was patient, who was respectful. The whole head of the crew was a very harsh sergeant, I mean of all the crews. And I don't remember what his last name was, but he was Sarge to everybody and we trembled, everybody trembled, even

01:03:20.320 - 01:03:46.060

the men trembled. Sarge was, he hated women. He did not want women out there. And a lot of the other men, I think they were a little concerned, you know, "Well, what are they going to do?" But the man that I was working directly under, and there was a crew of about About six people that worked as crews on any given task.

01:03:47.700 - 01:04:07.700

And so I had some good help, but I was initially just a mechanics helper, helping them do this and helping them do that. But I learned, and then I was given a lot of free reign. But it was a successful experiment, and they began hiring other girls subsequently.

01:04:08.100 - 01:04:17.360

And when I left, I think there were probably five or six more out there. All of them. Were these new engines? Were these rebuild engines?

01:04:17.780 - 01:04:40.260

No, the airplane thing from fighter planes to the B-29 when it finally first came out. I never saw an airplane as big as that one. It wouldn't even fit in the hangars. And I remember having to scale up to the top of the tail on that thing to do something

01:04:40.420 - 01:04:59.100

one day and I thought, "I'm on the three-story heights up here." That's what it felt like. But mostly I worked on B-17s, B-24s, A-20s that I got to ride in. And if you worked on a plane, if your crew worked on a plane, and the plane was capable

01:04:59.260 - 01:05:18.320

of carrying more than the pilot, somebody from that crew would go along. And that ensured that your work was well done because you would, you know, somebody had to ride in it so you were bound and determined that you would have done everything that you were supposed to have done.

01:05:19.480 - 01:05:47.060

But I got a breakthrough initially in my acceptance, total acceptance out there. They came in with a big bunch of P-40s and they had that big air scoop in the front and This was a modification on the air scoop and it required safetying all the nuts inside. And to safety a nut is you put a wire through it and twist it and it goes to another place

01:05:47.120 - 01:06:07.340

and twist it, but they're all safetyed together. And it was a very small handhold and I had small enough hands to get in there. And after that, they accepted me totally. But we would many times have to tear out an engine on something that wasn't working

01:06:07.560 - 01:06:20.540

and remove the carburetors, drain them. And I'd go home pretty dirty most of the time. I didn't mind. But I worked all shifts.

01:06:22.010 - 01:06:35.160

They were around-the-clock shifts. Sometimes I worked from seven in the morning to three. Sometimes I worked from three until eleven, and sometimes I worked from eleven to seven. I mean, there was continuous crew changes.

01:06:37.580 - 01:07:00.780

And to get out there, I didn't have a car, and rationing was on anyway. I lived at home, and that's a long way from Kelly Field. But many of my shifts I would walk the block down to Broadway from my house and sit on the corner waiting for the bus.

01:07:01.540 - 01:07:20.900

And then I would change buses in downtown San Antonio and catch the one that went out to Kelly Field. Later I carpooled and once again the carpool rarely would come to my house. And it was a crew of men, none of whom chose to speak English.

01:07:21.900 - 01:07:45.240

They were Polish heritage, I think, and I never had the slightest idea what they were talking about because they would revert to their original language. And that was common here in Victoria. There's many people that still speak Czech and German and things like this.

01:07:45.480 - 01:08:01.760

I have no idea what they were speaking, but they would pick me up, pitch black night, sitting on the curb there. And my mother was very calm about this. She later admitted to being worried about my sitting on the corner sometimes, but I

01:08:01.840 - 01:08:29.900

never had any untoward experiences or anything. And later my carpool did change, and there was a very nice young man that did speak, carry on conversation in English. But I thoroughly enjoyed working out there and I had the opportunity to run the engines, to taxi all those planes wherever they needed to go, pull the props

01:08:29.980 - 01:08:58.940

through on those tremendous things. And I look at those, I look at the B-17 now, I look at the B-24 and I think, "I don't know how I did that." Because I was still, I didn't weigh 120 pounds soaking wet. And when I graduated from high school I was still five feet four. I did grow that year. I think education studied my growth. I grew about

01:08:58.960 - 01:09:23.980

four inches that summer I was in Chicago. But I do marvel at what I was able to do and I was scampering all over those airplanes inside and out and doing anything that needed to be done. Working on the cables, working on the engines, working on whatever. Tell me about Pearl Harbor and how that affected the country.

01:09:25.120 - 01:09:46.340

I remember vividly Pearl Harbor when it happened because it was such a shock to everybody. I had a date with a cadet, there were a bunch of us that were out together on a date, when that news came across. They went immediately back to the field.

01:09:48.760 - 01:10:10.860

It was Sunday and my family was home glued to the radio when I got back home. But in San Antonio it was a lot of shockwaves at that point because that was such a military place. Tell us how it affected the working places that were available.

01:10:16.820 - 01:10:36.800

I suspect that they added a lot more crews and people because they lost a lot of men, so there were a lot more women hired at that point. But most of the men were considered, what is the word? Essential?

01:10:37.440 - 01:10:53.280

No, yes, essential labor. And many of the civilian workers that I worked with went over to England and they were over there for several years during the war over there doing what they had been doing at Kelly Field.

01:10:54.740 - 01:11:10.740

And I had a number of friends who were pulled out and sent over there. They were not military. They were civilians. But we saw all these planes come in, you know, by the millions, I guess, over time for their

01:11:10.740 - 01:11:37.540

modifications, and I met a lot of the crews, and one of the young men that I corresponded with for many, many years had brought a B-25 in. And it looked like they were going to where it was going to be very, very cold from the stuff that we were modifying and all. They were sent to Africa. And so that was the way, and of course all around was loose

01:11:37.540 - 01:12:08.620

slips, sink ships, and all the signs. And there was a lot of restriction on who was coming in and out of the bases and things like that. But I worked there until I left for the WASP. And during that time, I applied for my service in the WASP. I don't know where I heard about it, whether it was Texas Wing of Women Flyers, which was just a...

01:12:08.620 - 01:12:31.360

It was probably more of an organization than I realized, but I took a lot of ground school through there, and I know they were involved in the CPA, Civilian Patrol. CAP. I never flew any CAP things, but they seemingly seemed to be involved in it.

01:12:31.500 - 01:12:56.120

Mostly I got a lot of ground school work in there with them and navigation and things like that when I was -- we had weekly meetings. And I think that may have been where I first heard about the WASP, but I think I'm -- I have a feeling I had some other information about it because I wrote a lot of letters

01:12:56.580 - 01:13:24.200

starting in -- I think the first letter I wrote was in '42, and it went someplace and it went someplace else and it went someplace else and I would finally hear back. But I was interviewed finally at the Gutter Hotel. I got a telegram one day and it said, "Be down here for your interview." And then it was almost a year before I got notification

01:13:24.320 - 01:13:48.840

of a class, which was 4-4-9. And I worked-- Van Dyke: Did you take the physical? Steele: Oh, yes. I sure did. The only girl at Brooksfield was where I was sent to take my physical. Well actually I took another test as well, an aptitude test. And I was

01:13:48.840 - 01:14:18.220

the only girl in a whole room full of young men. They weren't in the service yet I don't think. They were apparently applying for the Air Force or something. But that's the aptitude test I took. And apparently I did very well on it. But the physical, when that rolled around. I was sent to Brooks Field for that. And I went out there and the day they had

01:14:18.240 - 01:14:53.860

told me to come was the day they were giving the final physicals to the graduating class at Brooks Field. They were leaving to get their shiny bars and most of them going right overseas from there. I guess they went to pursuit school first. They had gunnery but I think there were about 75 some young men, most of them just in shorts, and I had a sheet

01:14:54.480 - 01:15:15.360

and they would shut the door. They would go on through but there was always a door between And at one point I remember being the only person in this tremendous barracks like room, windows down both sides, all wide open. And I'm standing there and the only thing I have is a sheet on.

01:15:16.120 - 01:15:51.580

But I followed that whole parade of young men through and got my physical out there. know. Before that I knew I was under the weight limit and I had a great time trying to stuff myself. The family doctor gave me a sure thing for gaining weight and I don't know, I am surprised he didn't cure me of eggs but I still love eggs. I ate six coddled eggs every

01:15:52.380 - 01:16:15.020

morning for breakfast. Can you imagine eating six eggs? Do you know what a coddled egg is? A coddled egg is one that you drop it in the boiling water, turn the water off, and then you take it out. The white is just beginning to kind of gel. The rest is still, it's really, it's a raw egg. A raw egg would have been easier. You could beat it up. A stringy white

01:16:15.820 - 01:16:45.860

egg, there's no way. So I ate all of the six eggs with a lot of salt and pepper and gulped them down as fast as I could with a piece of toast to follow. But that's what I ate for months on end. Bananas till they came out of my ears and I still love bananas. But my real treat was when I was on On a day shift, I would get off the bus and walk home, which was about five blocks, I

01:16:45.860 - 01:17:08.360

guess, from where I would get off the bus. But the only drugstore in Alabama Heights was there on the corner, Broadway Pharmacy, and it had a counter, a soda fountain. And I would get a milkshake, which was Purity ice cream, and the young soda jerk would just

01:17:08.360 - 01:17:26.360

Fill it up the pharmacist finally realized what the man was doing what the kid was doing He was putting a quart of ice cream in every one of mine I swear and my younger sister who would sometimes join me she says It wasn't fair you got all that stuff and I didn't

01:17:27.640 - 01:17:54.460

But that was how I put the weight on that I needed before I took that physical because I knew I had to have it on But then I had to wait a long time before I got notification of the class. I worked up until I think a week before I went to Sweetwater.

01:17:56.500 - 01:18:27.880

And my father drove me out there and I know that there were some other girls in the car with me and Margaret Jones who was in my class swears that she rode out there with us. I have no recollection of Margaret having gone. I know she did because of some of the things she has told me and she would have no reason to say she went with me if she hadn't. But

01:18:28.200 - 01:19:00.720

the other girl that went with me I have a very clear recollection of her and yet I can't find her anywhere as being a trainee, and yet I am sure she went out there because in some of the publicity that we had in the Kelly Field newspaper and some in the San Antonio paper, there was a group of a number of WASPs, of girls who had been applied for the WASPs

01:19:00.720 - 01:19:21.540

or been chosen by them. And this girl is there, and I swear she went out there with me. But I have no way of documenting it at all. Did you know any WASPs who had graduated and did you know what they were doing? What made you think you wanted to be a WASP?

01:19:22.600 - 01:20:10.080

I just loved to fly and because I had two brothers who were then in the service and I had two brother-in-laws who were in the service and I just wanted to do it. And I particularly wanted to do it because my brother Ted, you want to shut that off? I think one of the reasons that I really wanted to be in the service doing something and I

01:20:10.080 - 01:20:35.860

I love to fly, so that's one of my main focuses. But my brother Ted and I were always really close friends. We were just good buddies, and I admired Teddy tremendously. I didn't even know until I was in high school that he only had sight in one eye, but it

01:20:35.880 - 01:20:44.320

was very visible. His eye was like a scrambled egg. I mean there was no vision there, it was just a blue scrambled mess. I never noticed it, never saw it.

01:20:44.480 - 01:21:08.460

He was a crack shot, he loved to hunt, he engaged in everything. And when the war came, all of his friends wanted to be joined up like all the young men did, they wanted to join up. He of course was 4F and he was not acceptable.

01:21:10.280 - 01:21:36.080

And it just killed him that he could not be in the service. And he signed on with the Merchant Marine. And he had never been to sea before and that was when the Merchant Marine was plowing up down the East Coast and when they were losing so many ships, they lost over 500 ships in

01:21:36.100 - 01:21:57.420

a six-month period with the German submarine, the U-boats that were out there. Teddy would come into port and he would sometimes get a chance to pop up. He'd come into Corpus Christi or Houston and he'd come to San Antonio. But he had photographs of ships being blown up in front of him and sunk, blown up behind

01:21:57.960 - 01:22:10.900

The captain on his ship went mad and the cook went mad and Teddy ended up in the galley as the cook on a number of occasions. But every time they would go into New York, they went from New York back and forth, back and forth.

01:22:10.960 - 01:22:24.060

I guess, I don't know what their cargo was. No telling what the cargo was. Oil, I suspect a lot of it. But he would get to New York and because he was a civilian, he said it was terrible.

01:22:24.740 - 01:22:42.020

They would spit on him up there. And that just made it harder because he wanted so bad to serve. But they started drafting 1Bs, and the gentleman on the draft board was the father of Ted's closest friend, who was then in the Marines.

01:22:43.180 - 01:22:57.680

And Mr. Villeray called my dad and said, "Next time Ted's in port, tell him I can get him in." He got him in as a clerk typist. was assigned to Kelly Field. So Mother and I had two people going to Kelly Field and

01:22:57.760 - 01:23:22.320

she ran double shifts because we were never on the same shift. I don't know how she kept up with us on, you know, the alternate shifting we were doing. But Teddy was working out there in one of the departments as a clerk typist. And the next thing we knew, Teddy was being reassigned and he went to Davis-Monthan Field in Tucson. And the next thing we knew,

01:23:22.420 - 01:23:55.400

he was in gunnery school. And he was taking all top honors and highest marksmen and all this stuff in gunnery school. And the next thing we knew he was assigned to a B-24 and he was off to Europe. He spent two and a half plus years in Africa and Italy. But the minute he got over there, he confessed to the higher-ups that he only had sight in one eye and he didn't

01:23:55.460 - 01:24:24.440

want to imperil. He was a gunner and a radio operator on a B-24 and he didn't want to imperil the life of anybody on the crew by missing an incoming aircraft. So of course they grounded him, but he continued as a radio repair. And he was in Italy through all the height of the fighting through there, and he came home with some -- he would write letters

01:24:24.500 - 01:24:53.100

home, but later on we found all the letters he had written to Mother, and he told us what was in between the lines. He had some really rare stories that he told us. But I always think of my brother when later the draft Dodgers came up, you know, in Vietnam and all. And I understand the reason for the conflict there. But back in World War II, everybody, that

01:24:53.140 - 01:25:09.640

was everybody's war. And everybody wanted, the vast majority of people wanted to serve. And I always think of Teddy. And he stayed in the military for a short time after he got back. Then he went into business.

01:25:09.760 - 01:25:24.140

He was called back up in Korea and he served in Korea. He still only had one eye. That had not changed. And I just have always admired him so greatly.

01:25:24.260 - 01:25:41.600

And I say we were always such good, dear friends. And the military was kind to Ted in the long run because he spent a lot of time in the veterans' hospitals in later life, and he died in Kerrville Hospital there. But I just always admired him.

01:25:42.280 - 01:25:59.380

But my other brother was in the Navy. He was an officer. He was on a minesweeper in the Pacific. And a brother-in-law was a flight surgeon with a B-17 group, and he was in Africa and

01:25:59.540 - 01:26:21.520

Italy. And my other brother was in the artillery, but he ultimately was in the paratroopers. And he never got overseas until the occupation of Japan, and it did hurt him in his career. But the reason he didn't go overseas was he was such a good training person at Fort

01:26:21.660 - 01:26:39.060

Bragg that his units kept being sent, but Bill kept being kept. But I had those four other people that I admired greatly, and they were all in the service. So I thought-- Kelly: That gave you inspiration?

01:26:39.520 - 01:27:09.500

I think so. That made my mother, I called her a five star mother, but of course we didn't get stars for being wasps then. And back to going out to Sweetwater when my dad took us out there, his territory with the company that he represented, and with companies because he had many, many companies he represented, extended the state of Texas and Mexico. He

01:27:09.500 - 01:27:43.660

didn't mind driving us. And of course, he was given ration tickets to get me out there because he was on business as well. And I remember driving out there and we were in the coffee shop at the Bluebonnet Hotel waiting for time for the bus to pick me up to take me out to the base. And we picked up the newspaper and that was the day before two wasps had

01:27:43.680 - 01:28:12.640

been killed in training. And I often wondered how my father felt. He never said anything then but I often wondered in later years how he felt with the rest of his family overseas, most of them, and doing stuff, and leaving me out there and seeing those two girls who had just been killed and knowing that, you know, well, she could get killed too. But

01:28:12.900 - 01:28:39.740

he didn't say anything, but I think that he, like my mother, recognized that I'm an independent cuss and pretty much do what I wanted to do. But that was my arrival out at Sweetwater. And I remember going out on that jolting cattle wagon and my first impression was all that

01:28:40.800 - 01:28:57.640

nothing. I mean just nothing there. And I do remember my father commenting on one person that came in and she just looked horrible.

01:28:58.080 - 01:29:12.900

She was all bunged up and whatnot. And she was one of my classmates and later on a very good friend. And I found out why she was so bunged up. She had driven from California in her convertible and she had had an accident and had rolled

01:29:12.900 - 01:29:42.680

three times in that convertible. And it was apparently repairable because she had that vehicle the whole time we were in training. It was our transportation. That was Gail Snell. Do you know Gail? But Gail stands well over six feet. She was quite imposing and rather masculine in her actions and whatnot. She was fun. We loved her, still do.

01:29:44.700 - 01:30:22.240

My bay mates, I had an instant bond with Thel Miller. She was Thel Litch at the time. She was from North Carolina. She was also Presbyterian. And she was just such a delightful individual that slow North Carolina draw and I was instantly drawn to her and we came to be very, very close friends. I'm trying to think who all were alphabetically in there. So we had L's

01:30:22.320 - 01:30:44.620

and P's, L's through P's in there. And then of course the scenes changed so rapidly because We had a lot of people starting to wash out, you know, right from the first. But my first impression of that bay and all those other gals in there, I was used to having a lot of people around and sharing a bathroom because of my family situation.

01:30:46.060 - 01:31:13.960

But to share a bathroom with twelve people, the two bays on either side, and those hard cots and the first night I spent there, I thought, I knew Army cots were hard, but I didn't realize they were this hard. I had shut my foot locker underneath the bed and I was sleeping basically on the foot locker. I mean there was no give there when I realized

01:31:14.620 - 01:31:46.380

what I had done. The bed softened up a little bit after that. But it was different being in that mix of people because we were all from different backgrounds. I think Thel and I probably came from the closest background, which may have been why we were attracted to one another. But the girls in there were from -- several of them were from California.

01:31:46.900 - 01:32:07.540

to my WASP friends ended up being from California, with the exception of Thel, but we all slotted in together very well. Kelly: Tell me about your instructors and their attitudes. Bell: Oh, I had, it seems to me, a lot of different instructors in primary, and I'm

01:32:07.620 - 01:32:47.100

not sure why, because my flight didn't change particularly, but there was a bit of juggling. And the first one I had I dearly loved. He was very gentle, soft-spoken, nice. And some of the others yelled a lot and were sort of crusty. Not uncouth, but just not as gentlemanly is the first one that I had. And they were all good instructors. I'll give them that.

01:32:47.720 - 01:33:16.960

I didn't have any bad instructors that I remember. Some, as I say, that yelled a lot. One that I thought was going to wash me out. And I think he had that intent. It was in primary and we were going into aerobatics for the first time and he was going to show inverted flight and he warned us if you freeze on the controls you're out.

01:33:18.720 - 01:33:34.500

That was a given and I knew it. I mean I knew that if we froze on the controls that was the end of it and I was vowing I'm not going to freeze on the controls. I don't know how other flights got the parachutes because I've had disputes with other WASPs

01:33:34.500 - 01:33:51.740

on this, but for primary, the parachute was issued to the first person that flew that day in your flight. And my flight measured from five feet four to six feet three. I mean that was the heights of the people.

01:33:52.620 - 01:34:09.260

And the five foot four was the first one scheduled to fly. She got the small parachute and the rest of us would have a hard time even getting buckled into it because you could fix the harnesses, but there are some adjustments you can't make.

01:34:09.680 - 01:34:20.500

If the short one got it, it was choking to death. If the six foot three one was the one who chose it, you would just go right through it. You couldn't buckle it up tight enough.

01:34:21.260 - 01:34:39.500

I couldn't. And I was in between, so sometimes it fitted and sometimes it didn't. But the day that I was going up for that flight, I had on one of those giant parachutes that there was, you know, the thing was down to my knees, the harness was.

01:34:40.200 - 01:34:54.160

And it's just no way that I was in. And we got up there, we'd been flying off the auxiliary field, and I took off and away we went. And he took over the controls and he said what he was going to do.

01:34:54.940 - 01:35:09.740

You can't talk back when he's got the Gosport tube and all you've got is the things in your ears." And he rolled the thing over and we were flying along like this and it was just a momentary because it was a float carburetor and they won't fly upside down very long.

01:35:11.100 - 01:35:27.360

But when he rolled it over I could feel the safety belt and the safety belt was just coming out like this. It wasn't, it was locked, it was hitched, but it wasn't holding. I was going out of the cockpit and I thought, "I'm not going out of this cockpit wearing

01:35:27.460 - 01:35:38.960

that parachute. I'd have gone right through it." So I did what I guess anybody would have done, I don't know. I had both hands on the stick.

01:35:39.750 - 01:36:10.520

I put my feet up underneath the instrument panel and there I hung. he couldn't get the plane to roll back over again because I was really hang on and the air was blue. I never heard such language. And he was simply livid and I couldn't do a thing about it. I mean I could shout to him but he couldn't hear. And finally he

01:36:10.580 - 01:36:33.420

was able to overcome the stranglehold I had on that plane. And he rode it back over and he headed right straight for the main field. And I thought, "This is it. He's going to wash me." And we landed and I scrambled out of that airplane as fast as I could. I jumped down on the wing and I chased after him on the tarmac. And I said, "You're

01:36:33.420 - 01:36:54.160

not going to wash me out." And he said, "Why not?" I said, "I didn't freeze on those controls." And he said, "What do you mean?" And I told him what had happened. And his response was, "Write it up into Form 1." And that was the only thing he said. He did not apologize for the blue language. He did not do anything. But I was so relieved

01:36:54.240 - 01:37:29.300

because he did not wash me out, and he could have. But I was very thankful. And his name was Carl Pinkard, and he was a great big man. I would call him a rough West Texan. I have no idea where he was from. But that was that, and then we finished up primary. We transitioned right into AT-6s, and that was marvelous because I hadn't expected, you know, a jump like that

01:37:29.300 - 01:37:53.660

because that was not the-- previous classes had, but we weren't aware of it, that they had transitioned to. Matter of fact, I thought we were the first class, but we were not. You weren't. But see, those are things you learn later on. But I loved the 86. I still love the 86. I think it's a beautiful airplane. I still run outside and listen for it when

01:37:53.680 - 01:38:17.980

I hear it fly over. What's the most memorable thing about Sweetwater, about Avenger? I think the wing reviews that we had, and I marvel at how well we marched, considering some of the people couldn't seem to tell their left foot from their right initially.

01:38:21.860 - 01:38:40.820

I thought they were just very impressive and when Jacqueline Cochran and all the generals would come down for those things and we'd march past that flight line with all those rows of airplanes out on the tarmac there and the flags flying and everything. It was just a beautiful recollection for me.

01:38:42.960 - 01:39:03.300

And the fun that we had. And we had some interesting experiences. Our favorite swimming hole out near Lake Sweetwater, Sour Lake, I think it had originally been called. We found a little pond nearby. We swam in it and had picnics out there many weekends until we realized it was filled with

01:39:03.320 - 01:39:37.580

water moccasins. We didn't swim in it after that. But we had a lot of happy trips out there that I remember. And between the transition period, between primary and the '86, we had three days off. And I brought five of my friends to San Antonio. We came in Gail's convertible. We drove all the way to San Antonio in her convertible. And we spent two lovely

01:39:37.580 - 01:40:04.920

days so they got to see what Texas really looked like because we came through the beautiful hill country and they saw San Antonio and my mother served us beautifully and we took over the house and my sister says she remembers my youngest sister who was home at the time, all those big gals and three of the people in that bunch that came down were over six

01:40:04.900 - 01:40:36.420

six feet tall. But she remembers everybody doing their exercises that weekend. I'm sure it shook the raptors as we were exercising. But we had a really fun weekend. And another trip we came down, we came in another vehicle and it was, it wasn't a rent-a-car, it was rent a car and driver thing, and they brought several of us to San Antonio.

01:40:39.080 - 01:40:55.380

And we got, going back home, we got as far as Bernie, Texas, which is not very far from San Antonio. By that time we had had three flat tires already. It was Sunday and you don't get tires in wartime.

01:40:56.460 - 01:41:11.020

They were shot in the first place. They couldn't even get replacements, and on Sunday nothing was open. So we strung out on the highway and we thumbed our way because there were no buses in Birney. We had to get to Kerrville.

01:41:11.520 - 01:41:22.920

We hitchhiked from Birney to Kerrville in various vehicles. I don't know. Thel and I were hitching together and we got picked up and everybody else got to the bus station there.

01:41:23.520 - 01:41:53.500

And we called Sweetwater and told them what had happened and that we were waiting for the bus, but we wouldn't get in until way, way after TAPS, way after. And I think it was probably one o'clock in the morning before we got back. And of course we went in for a hearing, and we were terrified because we were afraid we

01:41:54.120 - 01:42:18.920

get washed out and they were very serious. It was a very serious hearing. All the brass and Dee Dee Deetin and everybody else there. And I think all of us thought that we had just bought the farm or something at that point. And I learned later on that it was all they could do, the board, to keep a straight face as they were hearing our tale.

01:42:20.240 - 01:42:30.620

We were Kelly: All together or one at a time? No, we were sort of one at a time. But we were confined to the post for several weekends.

01:42:31.220 - 01:42:56.020

But that was the extent of our punishment there. But those were two things that really do stand out in my mind. But it was just to me a marvelous experience. And then our graduation too was a meaningful thing to finally get those wings, to get our

01:42:56.080 - 01:43:07.220

beautiful blue uniforms. Of course, we got those a little early on. Tell me what else you did on weekends besides go to the swimming hole. We went into Sweetwater for movies.

01:43:08.560 - 01:43:41.140

and I went to church, a little Presbyterian church there. I had one of my Sunday school teachers when I was in high school, she was a very dear friend of mine, her sister lived in Sweetwater and Vida apparently told her sister that I was out there and the sister invited us in one weekend for Sunday lunch with her. And I remember going to her little

01:43:41.400 - 01:44:09.900

cottage and no yard, all that red sand and the mesquite trees and things. But we would go to town for the movies and the Avenger Club. We enjoyed that. And there was a restaurant there. I remember, I don't know the name of it, I remember going there and they had a back room that a lot of people gambled. And one of my veymates, Veda Lum was her name,

01:44:10.820 - 01:44:35.380

she was a hot poker player. I think Veda was down there playing poker a lot. She raised racing greyhounds in her civilian life, but she was a gambler. But I remember going down there for steaks and things like that was mainly what we did. And we dated a lot of the boys from the surrounding fields. And some of the boys that I had met in San Antonio

01:44:37.560 - 01:44:56.960

occasionally flew in. One of them was a B-24 pilot that I was corresponding with, and I remember that he came one weekend and brought several of his friends. They didn't come in a B-24. I don't remember how they got there. I think they must have driven somehow or maybe caught a ride.

01:44:58.480 - 01:45:11.120

But that's what we did on our free time. Do you know any of the girls who washed out and what was their -- how did they feel about that? I knew a lot of them because we lost a lot in our bay.

01:45:11.260 - 01:45:36.000

I mean, I think -- oh, almost half of our class I think washed out. There were ninety-eight that started and there were fifty-eight that graduated, if I'm not mistaken. I knew the girls in Flight 2 better than I knew most of them in Flight 1.

01:45:36.200 - 01:45:55.500

I knew them but they weren't my closest friends, although some of them from the California contingent that had been buddies since young days, there were three of them. And two of them were in Flight 2 and the other was in Flight 1. So we knew those.

01:45:56.130 - 01:46:22.360

Do you know how most of them washed out? Yes. Most of them initially washed out because they just weren't good enough pilots, I think. And I knew one who washed out because of the wind out there, and I thought that was interesting.

01:46:23.000 - 01:46:47.700

Her sister, this girl wasn't in my class, she was in 10, but her sister, I don't know whether they were true sisters or step-sisters, they did not look alike at all, but they were sisters and I thought it was interesting that the two sisters were both accepted. So they must have had some reason for it, but one of them sailed right on through, and

01:46:47.720 - 01:47:05.920

the other one had an aversion to the wind. She was psychologically, she could not take the wind. And I thought that was interesting because they hailed from Kansas, and Kansas is windy, but maybe they were from a part of Kansas that had trees.

01:47:06.300 - 01:47:16.160

But she couldn't take the constant wind that we had out there. And you know how much it was. Kelly: Right. Do you remember graduation and getting your orders, and how did you feel?

01:47:17.340 - 01:47:31.820

Beall: I was pleased. I had wanted fighter planes, and I had hoped I had gotten a fighter, but I was assigned to a training base, but it was an advanced training base. And they did have a P-40 there, one.

01:47:32.820 - 01:47:47.660

But when I got there, I don't know how many of the other girls on the base. There were eleven WASPs all told. We were the last two. Anne Barron and I were both assigned there from '44-'49.

01:47:49.080 - 01:48:18.380

And the only person that I know for sure that got checked out on that P-40 was Kate Adams, Haley Harris. And I knew she'd been checked out on it. And I think that our squadron leader had been checked out on it. I can't remember what her name is right now. But when I came, they said no. They didn't want anything to happen, you know, just the last days of the

01:48:19.280 - 01:48:41.520

thing. And I was sad about that because I really wanted to check out in that P-40. Do you remember when you heard about deactivation and tell me what your thoughts were? I kept hoping it wouldn't happen, but they had also told us, "Don't make any waves. Don't write about it to anybody.

01:48:42.720 - 01:48:55.020

Don't ask your parents to write Congress. Don't do a lot of things." Did they tell you those kind of things? And so I didn't, but I kept thinking, "They're going to keep us."

01:48:55.040 - 01:49:14.300

I was hoping they were going to keep us. I was counting on their keeping us. And even when I knew it was going to happen, and there was no question about it, even after we were graduating, we knew it was there, it was a done deal.

01:49:15.940 - 01:49:37.080

But I still kept hoping, and I was devastated. I think like most of us were devastated because I just thought, "They still need us. Can't they at least keep the ones that we've got, even if they have to stop training? It's ridiculous to waste all that money."

01:49:37.080 - 01:49:56.000

And we were doing a good job, and I thought we were because we were doing so many diverse jobs. And mine wasn't probably a very important job, but it was what I was asked to do. I did some flight testing of airplanes there, but they had other people doing that too.

01:49:58.800 - 01:50:21.080

My paperwork says that I was initially assigned post-operations. Well, that wasn't in actuality because the first things I did was did test flight. But I also helped carry the mail down to the gunnery school, which from Napier was at Eglin Field.

01:50:22.540 - 01:50:38.340

And the cadets would go down there for I think about, I don't know how long their gunnery training was, a month, six weeks? But their mail would come to the base and we would fly the mail down there every day. And so that was one of my jobs, was to fly the mail down.

01:50:39.420 - 01:50:56.080

I flew non-flying military personnel to bases where they needed to go. Where did you live and how were you treated? We were treated very well, I think. I was.

01:50:56.380 - 01:51:07.520

I know I was. And they seemed to like the WASPs there. Some of them were instructors. One of them was an instrument instructor.

01:51:08.780 - 01:51:37.140

I know. And I think the whole base basically liked us. We were living in the nurses' quarters and we each had our own room. And I remember mine was at the very far end of the building. They may have been next door neighbors, but all I remember was it was a long walk to where the bathroom was. And I still see that bathroom because although it

01:51:37.020 - 01:52:02.800

was Alabama, it was also November, and it does get cold in Alabama in November sometimes. And the bathroom was just bare boards in the shower stalls and around the sinks. Everything was just wood. It wasn't even painted wood. It was just wood wood. And it was colder than a mackacrel there. It was really cold on the cold days. And taking showers was not fun,

01:52:02.940 - 01:52:18.620

But that's my basic recollection. We had very little intercourse with the nurses who were living there. You know, we were friendly, but we didn't really know them. Of course, I was only there for six weeks.

01:52:19.700 - 01:52:40.700

Didn't really have a chance to get to know them. We had full Officers Club privileges and took all our meals at the Officers Club. And I enjoyed a very active social life, although one of the guys that I dated most of all I found out before I left.

01:52:41.690 - 01:52:51.720

He was putting his wedding ring in his pocket. I found that out before I left. I let him know how I felt about that. I was very angry.

01:52:52.140 - 01:53:16.660

I thought it was, you know, that's pretty double dealing. But when we left, the base put on a wing review for us. And that really, to me, was so marvelous. But it was the coldest day that we had ever had there.

01:53:17.160 - 01:53:38.240

A northern had blown in, and it was so cold, it was all you could do to sit in the stands. So that put a bit of a chill on things. But it was marvelous because all the cadets, all the nurses, everybody on the base marched across in front of us in farewell.

01:53:39.040 - 01:53:53.720

And they gave us a lovely letter of commendation and they gave us a little ribbon for civilian service and I would have just as soon not had that ribbon but that's what they gave us. I suppose it was nice.

01:53:53.720 - 01:54:27.820

And the letter of commendation was very nice from the CO. And then they had allowed us transportation home and while most of the planes on the base were 86s, there was an 87 from someplace and I do not know where it came from, but I was flown home in that plane and was allowed to... I did all the navigation to San Antonio. The

01:54:27.940 - 01:54:56.560

fellow was on his way to Midland or Abilene or someplace else, but he flew in to San Antonio. And I still have my maps showing the chart that I plotted home. But it was a sad day. And it was Christmas, and so I was happy to be home for Christmas, but I was not a happy camper. I just felt like the rug had been pulled out from under us. I think most of

01:54:56.600 - 01:55:20.220

us felt that way. What was that Christmas like? It was a mixed bag. As I say, I was happy to be home with my family, and we always had strays that would bring home. With four daughters, our dining room table saw a lot of cadets

01:55:20.380 - 01:55:53.060

and young officers and things dragged home from church afterwards to come have lunch and things like that. So there were the same things were going on in '44. So we had a house full and the grandchildren were there. Not my grandchildren of course because I was not married, but both my sisters were home with their young children. So it was kind

01:55:53.060 - 01:56:22.360

of sad. Actually when I came home after graduation, I had a layover. My parents came out to graduation and I was really, I was so pleased that they could be out there. And then I drove home with them and spent the weekend, I think. I had a slight delay to report to Napier. I think they gave us two days or something. And I caught the train out of San Antonio

01:56:22.880 - 01:56:53.620

and I have a picture of my little niece who was there with us, clinging to my knees as I am getting ready to board, but I remember that train ride too because it was a troop train and there were three GIs sitting in the batch of seats that I was in. And two of them were quite drunk and I can still remember one of them, they were looking at me and looking

01:56:53.640 - 01:57:22.200

at me and I was standing there and resplendent in my uniform and my shiny labels and one I was weaving back and forth looking like this and finally he says, "What's a warp?" I mean he couldn't even. So I had to explain to them what a wasp was. But it was a long train trip because from San Antonio to Dothan, Alabama, which is on the far end. It's closer

01:57:22.200 - 01:57:50.260

to Florida than any place else. And it was a long train ride. But I remember that. I have no recollection of what Dothan looked like. I have no idea how I got from the train station to the base. I do remember having to check back and turning all my equipment, my parachute, my cushions, whatever uniform that I didn't want to keep. I didn't want

01:57:50.160 - 01:58:09.780

to relinquish any of it, but I didn't need two uniforms. And then I found out what they did with them afterwards, and I could just cry when I think of that. They threw them out, the ones we turned in, they threw them out behind one of the buildings and all the officers' wives and things on the base ran out and snatched them. So I don't know where

01:58:09.840 - 01:58:27.980

those uniforms went. But I couldn't afford to pay for more than what I brought home. I brought home a full set, including my girdle. I don't think I ever wore that girdle, but I brought it home anyway. Pink satin late--no, they were white satin elastics.

01:58:29.140 - 01:58:59.700

What do you think the legacy of the WASP will be? Well, I hope that we'll be remembered for the fact that we did this. And I think we will because when I meet some of the younger generation of pilots now, every one of them that I've ever met has been most gracious and said, "Thank you.

01:59:00.380 - 01:59:15.940

If it weren't for you all, I'm not sure we'd be here." And of course, it was when they first started saying they were going to see if women could fly, that's what made us so angry later on. And we really pushed to get our militarization through.

01:59:17.040 - 01:59:40.040

But the initial legislation that was advanced early on, it went nowhere. So I -- Kelly: Why do you think it went nowhere, maybe? Bell: I think the time wasn't right, and they felt that women really didn't belong

01:59:40.040 - 01:59:57.440

in those airplanes. Now I never had any problem with that at all. But you know with where I was based or with my relationship with men pilots any place else I never had a problem.

01:59:58.080 - 02:00:18.560

Other people I know did. A lot of resentment from the men. And I think that one of the problems too was when they started closing down the primary schools and all the civilian pilots who were in the primary schools and staying out of

02:00:18.580 - 02:00:36.380

the draft because of where they were. I think that the uproar they created was very much against us. And of course we didn't know a lot about that because we didn't have any news. I never saw a newspaper when I was at Napier.

02:00:38.600 - 02:01:08.820

There may have been some around, but I don't remember seeing any. [beep] You may have to race it again because I'm now sitting upright. [laughter]

02:01:10.180 - 02:01:30.480

Okay, we are rolling. Okay, after Christmas, and it was, you know, happy in one sense and it was very unhappy, I had started looking for employment even before we were thrown out. Thrown out is the only word I can use.

02:01:31.780 - 02:01:53.820

Trashed. And I do not know how other people felt, but I was furious when the airlines said, "Yes, they would love to have us, but as stewardesses." And I am sure other people were just as mad as I was, and most of those notices got torn

02:01:53.860 - 02:02:15.240

up very fast where I was, because I just thought that was really an insult. But I looked and I looked for a flying job and I couldn't find one. And I really didn't know quite where to look. People out in California were seemingly being able to get one.

02:02:16.200 - 02:02:41.600

There wasn't anything available around San Antonio or -- and I didn't have -- didn't know where to access availability. And then I finally applied to the Office of Flying Safety in Fort Worth because I had heard there was at least an aviation-related job there with the Flying Safety Board.

02:02:42.050 - 02:03:12.760

And I thought, "Well, maybe I could still be around airplanes even if I wasn't flying." And they wrote back and said that they had filled that position, but that there was one in the headquarters, which was in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. And so I applied there and was accepted. And so I flew to Winston-Salem. And it's a beautiful town. It's a lovely

02:03:13.200 - 02:03:39.180

town. But it wasn't a very good place for a single gal to go. And there were -- I think I have forgotten to count and I am not sure I can enumerate who all they were, but there were other WASPs up there and Schutze was one of them. Schutze Reynolds was one of them and Marian Edwards was another one.

02:03:39.320 - 02:04:11.560

She was a P-47 pilot and there were at least four or five, there was a bunch of us there. And we had been hired on as aircraft accident analysts. And our job consisted of we received the field reports on aircraft accidents. And some of them were minor accidents, but every accident had to go through regardless

02:04:11.620 - 02:04:31.120

of what it was. If it was a bird that hit the windshield as they were flying and really didn't do any damage except smashing the windshield and putting blood all over the pilot to some really serious fatality accidents and things. And I was put in the fighter section where I had

02:04:31.140 - 02:05:04.960

a, an officer over me who was doing some of the things. But we would tally these accidents and categorize them on a sheet of paper which in turn was put on a punch card which is, the forerunner of the computer, I guess, because they were all punch cards. And if we noticed a sequence, a run of similar accidents, it might have been a structural fault in a plane

02:05:04.960 - 02:05:23.920

or something like that, and we would draw them up, see how many we had, and if there was enough we would write a report on this and use all the statistics and things that were in there. Kelly: Mickey, was this for the whole Air Force or was it one particular plan?

02:05:23.930 - 02:05:50.100

Bethe: No, this was headquarters of the Office of Flying Safety across the nation. The one in Fort Worth was under that one somehow, and I do not know where the line fell. Those You know, there may have been some other ones out, but I got accident reports in from everywhere that the Air Corps had things.

02:05:51.080 - 02:06:08.640

But mine was just the fighter section. And I worked there for a year. And I really, I still honed to fly. I was not happy there.

02:06:10.800 - 02:06:21.220

It was interesting work, and we all had a good time. We palled around together, the Wasps did. There was nobody to date. There was no place to go.

02:06:21.740 - 02:06:49.680

Winston-Salem was a town, very closed community. All the tobacco factories there, Camel and, you know, was one of the major industries there. And the only young males that were in the town were the officers and most of them were

02:06:49.740 - 02:07:03.100

married. We had no place where we could go to relax or anything. The young women in the community didn't like us. They really didn't.

02:07:03.160 - 02:07:20.920

I mean, we were competing for the few males that were there. And I guess we had a little glamour. I don't know. I remember seeing a movie there on the Wasp, and I think it was the early one that Nancy was referring to. We all went en masse. But on Sundays, nothing was open.

02:07:21.460 - 02:07:47.840

You couldn't get a meal even on Sundays. The restaurants were all closed. Everything was closed. The movie theaters were closed. And other than movies, there wasn't much else to do. I was lucky enough, Marion Edwards was a good friend of mine, one of my closest friends. Marion was living with the R.J. Reynolds family, but Marion came from the Redding Rope

02:07:47.940 - 02:08:16.740

Factory and she was extremely wealthy. So she was accepted beautifully and as a civic duty, the Reynolds were opening their home to military people who didn't have a place to live. But through them, they were very delightful people. They were gone a lot and just their daughter was there most of the time and the old faithful black retainer was

02:08:16.820 - 02:08:49.120

there. And Marion had almost a suite of rooms so I would spend a number of weekends with out there. And through their generosity, we were allowed to join the country club there. Marion joined. I couldn't afford to join, and I don't know whether the other girls joined or not. But it was another place where we could go on occasion. And the other place

02:08:49.120 - 02:09:19.020

was open was the YWCA, which had a really beautiful restaurant in it. That was open on Sundays, so we could, you know, go eat there. But it was family style and we ate at the tables and most of the WASPs ate there on Sundays. And I'm sure that as we discussed business and flying. We discussed a lot of the gory flights and we got some strange looks

02:09:19.120 - 02:09:43.420

from some of the other diners because it wasn't bothering us but it may have been bothering them. We were just talking shop. But we convinced the powers that be that we couldn't really do our jobs if we were not permitted to fly. You know, how can you analyze an accident if you've forgotten how to fly. And Schutze wasn't working at flying safety, she was

02:09:43.460 - 02:10:08.260

working at the airport. And I don't know whether she was in the control tower or what she was doing out there, but I, for a long time I thought because she was with us a lot that she had been there, but that was how my memory was failing me. But we did convince them that we needed to be allowed in the airplanes at least. Of course, we couldn't take them

02:10:08.280 - 02:10:35.520

all for land them, but we did get to fly in them because they were still maintaining their -- having to get their flying time in. So we catched rides and we -- I went to New York on one of the rides and I went to Williamsburg when my brother was there. He was stationed in Williamsburg in the Inn taking some of his naval officer training. It was fun to

02:10:35.520 - 02:11:05.920

go visit him and his wife in their one room at the Inn. But I made trips down there once in a while. But I just, I was not happy there and I stayed there just a year. Now the others continued on and stayed longer and later the headquarters moved to Langley Field. And I know Betty Pettit was one of them. No, Betty was down at Napier with me. She stayed on

02:11:06.100 - 02:11:26.420

Napier. It was somebody else that went back to where Langley was. And I just didn't want to stay. It was not, I was not happy and I thought this is ridiculous to continue on. I wasn't happy with the work, even if it was interesting. So, where did you go?

02:11:26.630 - 02:11:35.200

So I went back home, and you can't go home again. You really can't. And I was at loose ends. I couldn't find anything to do.

02:11:36.000 - 02:11:56.060

Most of my friends were either married, and I didn't have anything in common with them. And I had another friend who was single, and she had this bee in her bonnet. She wanted to go to New York. And I thought, "What the heck, going to go to New York," and I still wanted to go and

02:11:57.120 - 02:12:14.720

go to modeling school. And I thought, "Oh, well, I've done a lot of modeling. I don't know that I need to go to school," but I was still lithe and whatnot. So my father had a business trip to Connecticut, and so he drove us to New York.

02:12:16.780 - 02:12:35.360

And we stayed at a hotel for women in the downtown New York area. And I don't even remember the name of the modeling school we signed up for, but it was every day we were there. And we hadn't been at that hotel, and it was an all-women's hotel with locked doors

02:12:35.420 - 02:12:52.640

at night and whatnot. And it had been an old hotel, so it was rooms and maybe a wash basin in your room, but the The bathroom was down the hall with the showers. We had been there about two weeks when a girl committed suicide on our floor.

02:12:55.280 - 02:13:09.860

Why I do not know. I did not see it, but it was a gory sight apparently. Estelle wanted out of there and she had a friend who was staying at the Three Arts Club in Music and Dance.

02:13:12.020 - 02:13:29.980

You had to know somebody to get in the three arts club. And Estelle got in, and I couldn't. I had an aunt that lived in Mount Vernon, and I moved out with my aunt. So I got kind of bored with the -- I finished up the modeling school, and they were to find

02:13:30.040 - 02:13:55.420

us jobs, but I never found a modeling job, and I worked at Saks Fifth Avenue as a sales clerk. And it was Christmas time by then. I guess I was up there maybe eight months or so, commuting back and forth from Long Island into New York City. And my sister, another sister, my older

02:13:55.440 - 02:14:20.900

sister, her husband was now back home, and he was the doctor. And he had a residency at Johns Hopkins Hospital, and they were living in Baltimore. And I went down to spend Christmas with Marjorie and Angus. And they knew that I wasn't happy. Angus was a psychiatrist. He really knew I wasn't happy. And he says, "Why don't you move down here and, you

02:14:20.900 - 02:14:42.720

know, maybe you can find something." And he said, "I'm sure there's lots of jobs at the hospital." And I went down and I was offered three jobs at the hospital, right off the bat. And that's what I was saying I valued what my grandmother had done for me by sending me to business school. I had my choice of working for the director of Johns

02:14:42.940 - 02:15:12.600

Hopkins Hospital or the newly arrived director of the Department of Radiology, who was a a very promising young radiologist from the University of Chicago. And when I met him after I had interviewed with the director first, who was very nice and I liked him, and I would not have minded working for him, but when I met Russ Morgan, I thought, "This

02:15:12.660 - 02:15:32.560

is where I want to be." I was interviewed in the closet of one of the oldest office sections at Johns Hopkins, which is a very old hospital. The radiology department was in the oldest building there, and his office was about the size of a closet.

02:15:33.520 - 02:15:45.760

In one corner, there was a skeleton collapsed in a box, and there was just junk stacked around and all this stuff. But he was the most riveting young man I have ever met. I don't know how old he was.

02:15:46.600 - 02:16:22.280

He must have been in his early thirties, and I was twenty-seven, I guess. He was married, had a delightful wife, and two children. But it was the most fascinating job to work for him because he was doing all these radiological experiments, the Taucig Blue Baby experiments that went on there with—what is the head

02:16:22.820 - 02:16:50.520

of the Heart Operations in Houston? DeBakey. DeBakey. He was there, and Dr. Denton Cooley was a resident when I was at Johns Hopkins. And I sat in on a lot of the Blue Baby experimentation, watching as they worked. And my job was to

02:16:50.520 - 02:17:15.980

help -- you know, was secretary to him. But he, of course, was still doing radiology on patients and things, and so I transcribed all of his reports on things. And I found really very interesting to do all this stuff. But he was doing experimental work on portable GI studies that could be done on the corner of the street with a small-sized camera. I

02:17:15.980 - 02:17:47.800

mean it was just fascinating to work with this man. And he was just a real pleasure to work for. And he obviously was pleased with my work because ultimately I was given the job as an administrative assistant for him. But at this point I was in charge of hiring and firing and what not and that was really a hard job. And I had hired one individual

02:17:47.900 - 02:18:13.440

that I thought was really pretty capable, but she wanted my job. There was no question she wanted my job. And I went home on vacation and I was to be gone, oh, several weeks. And I had bought a car. My dad got it for me in San Antonio. It was my car. I had paid for it and everything and I chose it, but he picked it out and bought it for me. And he met me

02:18:13.500 - 02:18:50.040

at the airport when I flew home in my new car. It was a 1948 Dodge. My sisters all expected me to get a bright red convertible. I had a very sedate, sea foam green Dodge Club coupe, which had the two doors, but you had a back seat in it. That car lasted me through—we finally got rid of it in 1968, I think, when it just gave up the ghost. But when I went

02:18:49.920 - 02:19:20.180

home for that, one of my dear friends who was the medical librarian at Johns Hopkins was getting married in Jackson, Mississippi. And I was to be at the wedding, and I drove up there, and on the way up I stopped someplace to eat. Of course, I stayed overnight someplace. I picked up infectious hepatitis somewhere and it hit me when I got to the wedding. I

02:19:20.240 - 02:19:46.700

wasn't sick at the wedding, but when we left from there I had another nurse -- of course the bride and groom went off someplace -- but another nurse was going to drive back to Baltimore with me. And I didn't know she couldn't drive. I thought everybody knew how to drive. She And I was so violently ill, it was all I could do to keep my head up to drive.

02:19:46.890 - 02:20:10.240

And there was nothing to do but continue driving. And we got as far as Charlottesville, Virginia, where another sister and her family was living. And I stayed there for another two weeks trying to recover from hepatitis. Isolated, of course, because it was infectious hepatitis.

02:20:10.500 - 02:20:34.880

She had two small children. But in the interim, I was gone from the office for a month. This woman that I had hired was really worming her way into things. And when I got back, I was on a limited work schedule, and I really did not care whether

02:20:34.940 - 02:21:04.240

I had that job or not, but I had bought a brand new car on the basis of my salary and a few other things. And I told him, I said -- he said, "I think, you know, you're not going to be able to work, all right." But I said, "What about my salary?" He says, "Well, we'll take care of that." I went back to being his secretary for a brief time, but in the

02:21:04.100 - 02:21:30.760

the interim, she couldn't handle the job. She thought she could. And my brother-in-law, he knew how angry I was, because I was angry that it happened. He says, "Mickey, just kill her with kindness." So I did. I bent over backwards. But what I had done beforehand, I revised the entire filing system of the x-rays and how they were checked in and out,

02:21:31.460 - 02:21:57.880

and modernized the whole system, which was working beautifully. And I transited from dictaphone translations to instant typing. The typist had to be good enough that the doctor was dictating you were typing. And I had instituted all these things, but she She had trouble, tragedy, and she quit.

02:21:58.320 - 02:22:16.540

She went to pieces, literally. And at that point, I had been there close to two years, and I thought, "You know, I would like to go back to school." So I quit my job, and I applied at the University of Texas, and I went back to school.

02:22:17.300 - 02:22:28.120

And that is where Bob comes in. But you see there was a sizable interim before I met my husband. What did you want to go back to school and study? I just wanted to get, I just wanted to study.

02:22:29.860 - 02:22:46.320

And the University of Texas had an excellent program that many of my friends had gone into when they went straight from high school into it. And I inquired into it because of course I had to talk to a lot of people before I could be accepted.

02:22:46.760 - 02:23:06.760

I was sort of accepted, but not in that particular plan. And it was called Plan 2. And basically it was just general core curriculum for the first two years, after which you would choose your major and go on from there.

02:23:07.600 - 02:23:32.700

But we were given, as freshmen and sophomores, full professors. This was, mind you, after the war. This was in '48. And all the GIs were coming back, and the classes were huge, and the freshman classes were huge. Biology classes, and chemistry classes. Hundreds and hundreds of students, and basic television up on the walls so they

02:23:32.700 - 02:24:08.880

you can see, I had full professors for every class I had. English, Latin, biology, history, and it was marvelous. Mathematics, and I still was not very good at math. On my transcript which from the university. It has a D, which should have been an F in the mathematics. And somebody in the registrar's office apparently looked at all the other As, because there

02:24:08.940 - 02:24:32.900

were a lot of As there, and thought, "This must be an error," and they made it a B. Well, it wasn't. It was a D. And the only reason I passed was this professor had never had a student family's class ever. And I did the second half of it, which I said I was not going to take, because I had so much trouble struggling through the first, because

02:24:32.920 - 02:24:53.800

it was advanced math and I was really having trouble with it. If it hadn't been for another young -- a very young kid in the class that -- who took a liking to me, if it hadn't been for him, I would not have gotten through that class. But the next class was triangulation and things of this sort, which I had done in vectors and flying. I didn't have much

02:24:53.880 - 02:25:16.640

trouble with that. But when it came to the exams, I was still having trouble. And he vows and declares. When I went to get my paper, he said he'd lost it. But he hadn't lost it. And I knew I had failed it. But I passed the course. It was the last math course I took. But I continued on in school. But by then, I had met Bob. And I met him at the

02:25:16.540 - 02:25:56.080

Presbyterian Church where there was a large student group of all ages. Bob was a returning Navy veteran. He's younger than I, but the minute I saw him, I was very attracted to him. And I was very young and very naive even at that age. I mean, I really was. I was just young still. And we had a lot of like interest and what not. And I dated him off and on and

02:25:56.080 - 02:26:17.520

we went a lot in group there with a bunch from church. But we were involved and thrown together a lot. Went to lots of football games and things. And then I left the first summer. I had saved enough money to go one year without working, but I knew I had to work the next go around.

02:26:18.200 - 02:26:35.980

And so I was working part-time and going to school part-time, and I had gotten a job as a secretary again. I worked for two doctors. Bob had gone home, gone back to see my sister in Charlottesville and spent a few short time

02:26:36.020 - 02:26:59.000

up there before I went back to the university. meanwhile, had gone home to work at the Texas Gulf Sulfur Company where he had been employed as I think partly in high school, but later before he went into the Navy, because he had gone to the university briefly before he went into the Navy. And I think he went back home

02:26:59.160 - 02:27:30.200

and he was the last child in a family of four, and he was the ten-year tail end, you know, distance between. So he was still mamas only. And I think that he was arguing with himself about getting involved with an older woman and he was not happy and concerned and whatnot. And so when I got back, I knew there was a distance there somewhere, but we couldn't

02:27:30.200 - 02:28:01.340

quite figure out what was going on. But the pool was more than both of us could ignore. And we became engaged that next year while I was still a student. And we got married very shortly thereafter. I think we were engaged maybe at most six weeks. My parents were in North Carolina on a business trip and fun trip and we called immediately.

02:28:02.020 - 02:28:08.500

They were thrilled to death. Great celebration. They thought I was going to be single forever. Happy's Clams.

02:28:08.820 - 02:28:40.900

We called Bob's parents and I don't remember whether Bob's mother wasn't home and Dad didn't want to tell, there was some reason we were waiting on that. And when we broke the news to them, mother went to pieces. I mean she was not a happy camper. And the gist was she didn't want him to marry, she didn't want anything. And she had met some of his

02:28:40.940 - 02:29:05.820

other friends and we had somebody who she valued very much intervene on my behalf because she would not even talk to us. And we said we have got to come down and we are coming down. And I was never so filled with dread driving from Austin to New Gulf, Texas, which is down

02:29:05.700 - 02:29:31.100

here on the coast to meet somebody that really didn't want to meet me. But once we met, it was fine. And I was forgiven. She cried all the way through the wedding, but that was another story. Bob said she cried at everybody's weddings. But I dearly loved my mother-in-law and my father-in-law. They were just lovely people. But I'm sure it was a shock to them

02:29:31.100 - 02:29:48.300

that their last chick was marrying somebody that was five years older. And they were still viewing Bob even though he was twenty-four. EC: And Presbyterian. JL: Yeah. And, well, they were Presbyterian too. They were going to the Methodist Church

02:29:48.380 - 02:30:30.540

because there wasn't a Presbyterian church there. But, no, it was a-- I think it was they planned, should have been, and we had a delightful wedding at the first picture. My grandmother died in 1939, shortly after my graduation actually. I lost three very dear people all at the same time within a -- it was within a week's span. We lost both

02:30:30.620 - 02:31:09.160

grandmothers, my paternal grandmother and my maternal grandmother, and a dear uncle all in a very short span of time. My grandfather, no, it was my grandfather, my dad's father that died then, my grandmother, my dad's mother, and this uncle. But the grandfather had gone to Chicago, the cigar smoker. That was the other problem. I was laughing. The

02:31:09.260 - 02:31:34.580

cigar smoke made my little sister violently ill and she threw up all over my graduation present, which was a new suitcase. I never forgave her for that. But Grandpa had a stroke while I was in Chicago and I was the one that heard him fall. My aunt and I were both there at the same time. He had been taking a bath. And I remember he was a short, very rotund

02:31:34.980 - 02:32:10.620

gentleman. We had a hard time getting him out of the tub. But we lost those three, so my grandparents were not there. But we were married at the First Presbyterian Church. My sister and my best friend, former roommate, who was a law student, first girl law student at UT, I think, were my attendants. The reception was at home, and it was a December Christmas

02:32:10.720 - 02:32:45.240

wedding and we had our wedding honeymoon. We went to Bernie, Texas and stayed in Ye Kendall Inn, which is an old stagecoach stop, and it was a very unique place to go. And then we went back to school. We just had a few days off at the Christmas break, which wasn't really very long. We got married on the 22nd of December. We had our honeymoon.

02:32:45.470 - 02:33:11.040

We came back home. The honeymoon was basically two nights and a day, I think. And we spent part of the honeymoon going to the Cascade Caverns. I never liked going underground. Going up is one thing, going down is another thing, and I still do not cotton to caves very much, but I have been in a lot of caves because they are interesting and intriguing.

02:33:11.660 - 02:33:35.180

But that is where I spent my honeymoon. It was down in this, crawling around this cave, which wasn't really equipped for tourists. It was open for tourists, but it didn't have all the niceties of smooth paths and stuff. It was interesting and I did enjoy it, even though I felt very shut in under the ground.

02:33:35.620 - 02:34:06.640

But we came back and had Christmas at my family's and then drove to spend a few days with Bob's family and then it was back to school and back to work. I turned up pregnant later that spring and I was working full time and I was pregnant and I was also taking advanced Latin and a few other things and I finally decided it

02:34:06.640 - 02:34:23.460

was too much and I dropped out of school. What was Bob studying? He was studying chem engineering initially and then he's always enjoyed teaching and he decided he wanted to change his major and he went into education.

02:34:24.520 - 02:34:47.600

And we would probably have been richer and better off if he had stayed in chem engineering, but he loves teaching and of course that's always low man on the totem pole. But he changed his major and he graduated at the end of '51. And he had secured a job in the valley.

02:34:49.260 - 02:35:00.520

And he had made many trips down there. My father had made many trips down there. And with all the air bases down there, there was no housing. There was still a lot of military down there.

02:35:01.160 - 02:35:17.660

No housing at all. he still hadn't found a house for us right up to just before we were supposed to be down there. And I came home from work one day and he was holding a letter in his hand and it was from the superintendent of schools down there to say that they were very sorry but

02:35:17.700 - 02:35:44.560

they didn't have a position after all. And so we thought, "Well, that solves the housing problem but what are we going to do for meals?" I had quit my job. I was still working but I had quit my job, my replacement had been hired. We had given up our apartment, it was a duplex, and we had burned all our bridges basically. And so we went back to the teacher

02:35:44.620 - 02:36:17.240

placement and San Antonio was crying for a teacher at Lanier High School and they wanted to interview both of us, so we both went down there. I'm out here expecting a baby. I think I was seven months pregnant at that point. And he was hired there as a science teacher, physics and chemistry. And he stayed there for, I think, about three years, two

02:36:17.240 - 02:36:49.060

three years. And then an opening came at Alamo Heights School, where I had gone to school, and they wanted a chemistry and physics teacher, and Bob got the job there. So we were living in that area anyway, and commuting down. So that's where we were back in San Antonio. Then we had all four children in San Antonio in pretty quick succession I guess you might

02:36:49.160 - 02:37:04.080

say. We had four kids under five years of age and actually they were not that close together. The boys were eighteen months apart and then there was a gap of about two years and the girls were sixteen months apart, but just the way the birthday fell.

02:37:05.060 - 02:37:31.100

But we got rid of the diapers in a hurry. my sister had five children and she still had one in diapers fifteen years after the first one and I thought, "No way." I mean her children were just spread out further in line. But you're busy when you've got that many kids that close together. And we

02:37:31.120 - 02:37:57.560

remained in San Antonio struggling on the school teacher's salary and it was a real struggle. The salaries were just abysmal. I made more as a secretary than Bob made as a school teacher. And that was like, his beginning salary was $2,500 a year. We had bought a house. It had 825 square feet in it. And it was not brand new, but it was

02:37:57.580 - 02:38:24.220

almost brand new. And it was tiny, tiny, but it was really cute. And we had all four children there, three of them in one bedroom and the baby in the bedroom with us. And we had to find another house and we bought another house, which was an old farmhouse that we had seen for sale to be moved. And we couldn't find any place to move it. And my father had even

02:38:24.300 - 02:38:48.300

said he would, you know, help us with the financing. He helped us with the financing of our first house, we couldn't get a loan. We couldn't get a GI loan or an FHA loan in spite of Bob's veteran status because they said school teaching was not a stable profession. Wouldn't you like that?

02:38:50.940 - 02:39:11.720

So my dad financed our first home, and we didn't pay him back for a long, long time. But he carried the loan without interest or anything like that. But the second house we bought was for sale to be moved, which we couldn't. And I was driving one day, and there was the house.

02:39:11.860 - 02:39:17.780

I passed it, and I came home. I says, "Mom, I saw our house. Somebody else bought it. They moved it."

02:39:17.780 - 02:39:32.040

And it was just a stroke of luck. Why I went down that street I don't know. And it had been moved and it had been all beautifully fixed up. And the next time I drove by there torturing myself, it had a "For Sale" sign in front

02:39:32.060 - 02:39:55.260

of it, and we called the real estate agent. And Bob went out and looked at it. And then the two of them came back home and they said they were going out to talk to the who by this time lived way out in the country. And Bob didn't get home. It was close to

02:39:55.440 - 02:40:20.120

midnight before he got back. And I began wondering, "Where in the world is he?" I didn't know where he was. And he came in and we had bought a house. The owners of that house, it had been their house and they had sold all their farming property there in San Antonio to a who wanted the whole thing but he didn't want that house on the property.

02:40:20.940 - 02:40:33.800

They loved the house so much that they couldn't bear to see it torn down. So they moved it themselves. I mean, they had it moved. They cut it in half, moved it to this new property, put it back together, finished it

02:40:33.820 - 02:40:49.540

all up, and we bought it. They said they would wait until we could sell our house before the contract would start. And we went over there. Day after day, Bob put in the lawn, fixed it.

02:40:49.560 - 02:41:05.360

We still didn't own the house, but it was going to be ours. They sat on that note for about eight months before we could get into that house and just held it, no cost to us at all. They wanted us in there.

02:41:06.360 - 02:41:22.980

And I think we were in the house for two years when Bob got an opportunity to move to West Texas in a supervisory administrative position because he had gone back to university and gotten his master's degree. And he was called for this. So we moved to West Texas.

02:41:22.980 - 02:41:48.180

So we moved to West Texas. We moved to San Angelo. And how long were you there? We were there for about six years. We moved in '59 and we left in '60 -- '64, I think. And Bob had come back and was working on his doctorate. We moved back to Austin from there

02:41:48.540 - 02:42:14.120

and lived in married students' housing. Here again, it's a unique experience to take four children into married students' housing, and those things were so old that when we were there, there was a girl whose parents -- she was there with her children. She had been a child in Deep Eddy right after the war in that housing, and she was in the same

02:42:14.260 - 02:42:53.300

apartment that she had been born from, and that's how old those things were. But it was two years, maybe a little longer, in Austin while he went back to school to get his doctorate. And I went back to work, of course. We had to because he had a small happened from the University, a graduate assistant, which was just nothing at all. And I went

02:42:53.380 - 02:43:15.260

back to work, and as luck would have it, the only job that was available, and I was concerned about nepotism because he was hired as graduate assistant in this department, and they said, "Don't worry about it." I was hired as the secretary for the Department of Educational Administration, which was where he was getting his doctorate, was in the Department of Education.

02:43:16.060 - 02:43:29.660

So I was hired there as senior secretary where I remained for the whole time. And they were very nice. They let me adjust my hours because I was supposed to get an hour for lunch. I said I don't need an hour for lunch.

02:43:30.360 - 02:43:55.680

Can I take it off at the end of the day if the work is all done? So I would go to work early in the morning after getting three kids off to school and and went off to nursery school, packed all the lunches for them and us, and off we'd go. And we'd deliver the kids to school and wherever they had to go. I would go to

02:43:55.860 - 02:44:19.280

work. Bob would pick Ann up from nursery school and we would eat in the commons. And then And he would take her home where we had hired a big black woman that the employment agency said you are probably making a terrible mistake and if you are going to pay her that much you are a fool.

02:44:19.420 - 02:44:32.680

I was paying her $25 a week I think. And they said she does not know anything. Well, I could not see paying somebody less than that at that point, not for what I was asking her to do.

02:44:32.980 - 02:44:48.320

You know, it crimped our budget considerably. But to hand somebody over -- and Sammy worked out just fine for us. She was loving with the kids. The boys would ride the school bus home.

02:44:49.160 - 02:45:01.440

She would be there when Bob would bring Ann home. A friend brought Ellie home from her class. She was too small to ride the bus. And she was -- Sammy was in charge of the kids until I came home at four o'clock.

02:45:02.540 - 02:45:17.060

And she didn't know much about cooking or anything else, and I taught her a lot about washing, cooking, and everything. And she worked that just fine for us, except she wore holes in the rug because she swept so powerfully, but that didn't matter.

02:45:17.460 - 02:45:35.500

But we moved our whole household of furniture from a big house that we owned in West Texas into this three-bedroom apartment, and the downstairs was the living room and the dining room kitchen. And you sat at the dining room table, this table that's in here, and you could touch

02:45:35.600 - 02:45:48.900

the walls. You had to ooch around the furniture to get to the stove or the refrigerator or the sink. Sink had a deep thing and that's where Ann got her bath because it was deep enough to bathe a small child in.

02:45:49.820 - 02:46:07.820

And the rest was a small bathroom with a shower upstairs. We had to get rid of the boys' bunk beds because when you trundled out the bottom bunk, there wasn't any room left in the room. Their room was that small, so we got bunk beds for them. But we survived two years plus there.

02:46:08.910 - 02:46:26.900

And then where did you go? Then Bob got a job with the University of Florida in Gainesville. He still had not completed his dissertation, but they wanted him anyway, and they promised him the time to write it. We got there, we had rented a house, sight unseen.

02:46:27.520 - 02:46:41.940

The department head had found it for us. The moving van got there ahead of us. We were driving, here again, two cars at this point. I was driving one, Bob was driving one.

02:46:42.980 - 02:46:58.580

And we got down there, the moving van was ahead of us. They had unpacked everything and just left it in the house. The beds not put up, nothing done. And all of my good china and everything was underneath all of Bob's shop equipment.

02:46:59.120 - 02:47:13.600

And I trembled for the breakage. Nothing was broken because I had packed it myself. But we moved down there and we stayed. Bob stayed for seven months.

02:47:15.740 - 02:47:39.060

he got a call that he was wanted in San Antonio for a very special experimental educational program and he says, "Well, I've got to go look at it." And he says, "I'm just going to go look." Well, he called me back the day he was supposed to come back and he says, "I'm not coming back." And I said, "When do we start packing?" And he says, "No, no."

02:47:39.060 - 02:47:55.040

But they made us an offer we couldn't refuse and while we hated to renege on a contract with the University of Florida, even the dean there said, "Bob, don't pass that opportunity up." But here's where we were really foolish.

02:47:55.970 - 02:48:15.700

We felt the kids ought to stay at school. And from here on out, I tell all my friends, "If your husband moves, move with him immediately." But the kids and I stayed until the school session was out. him, stayed with my parents until he found a place to stay and we had a -- we thought

02:48:15.760 - 02:48:39.820

we had a house. We didn't -- we didn't end up buying this one, but that's where we moved to when I finally came in June. But we were only in Florida. When we found out he was leaving, we made tracks to really see Florida, so every weekend we were out. But during all All these moves, we still maintained our church activities without fail because we felt they

02:48:39.820 - 02:49:08.240

were important and enjoyed them. Bob and I both sing in the choir. We both taught Sunday school in spite of doing all these other things. And the kids were in scouts, the boys were, in Austin and in San Angelo, and Bob was involved with the scouts even there. So we moved to San Antonio and the marvelous experiment didn't turn out like they had

02:49:08.400 - 02:49:27.780

anticipated. It was to be an international college between Central and South America and San Antonio and they were there to lay the groundwork. And the fellow they hired as the head didn't -- he just didn't do something right because

02:49:27.780 - 02:49:57.020

it did not make it. And this was the time of the hemisphere and all the hemisphere buildings were to be used for YAC is what we called it. Bob can tell you the name that it really was. I cannot remember the initials, I mean what it stood for. But we stayed until we we realized that it wasn't going to make it. And Bob was looking for another position,

02:49:57.940 - 02:50:44.500

and he got an offer from Oklahoma State. And UT San Antonio was sort of in the formula stage, but I don't think it really started until we had been at OSU for a while. And I think. Three of the children graduated from high school there. And George's second son graduated from OSU, but he graduated after we had left to come down here. And I didn't

02:50:44.540 - 02:51:05.860

know at the time that Bob was ready to leave OSU because he had been passed over for promotion several times, which he shouldn't have been. And every time they lost another professor, Bob added a job. They had to hire three professors to replace him when he left, but they weren't going to pay him for it, nor were they going to give him the full professorship that he

02:51:05.860 - 02:51:33.500

had been promised. So when University of Houston, Victoria, was proposed, it was ground zero to start a new thing and they wrote and asked him if he would be interested and he was. But I didn't know that he would have quit OSU anyway because he had gotten really fed up. But he tends

02:51:33.600 - 02:52:11.780

to keep quiet about some things. I was not aware how miserable he was with it. But we had a very, I think, a good life in Stillwater. I liked the campus atmosphere we still had and the football games and the campus activities, which we don't have here. We both missed that aspect of it. But here again, we were still actively involved in all the things. I took

02:52:11.780 - 02:52:35.640

girls found the 4-H Club the first time we moved there, and they fell in love with it. And they're always short of leaders, and I ended up being a 4-H leader, and I learned a lot. But it was an interesting time. Then we moved, say, from there down here, and we only brought one child down here.

02:52:35.880 - 02:53:02.000

Kelly: This was in '75? Bethe: Oh, '75, yes. Ellie had graduated and was living on her own and working. She didn't want to go to college. Like mother, like daughter, I guess, initially. But in the '60s and '70s, it was hard to raise children, and it was really hard at OSU because

02:53:02.000 - 02:53:36.620

The hippie problem was just as bad there, and the drug problems and the cop cat things. Ellie was sort of in the wrong group at high school. She is a beautiful girl, and she had, early on in elementary school when she first moved, been given a hard time by some of the girls that were there in school who told other people

02:53:36.820 - 02:54:00.140

don't have anything to do with her. And that carried on through junior high, and by that time the hippie stuff was rolling in, and when she hit high school it was still very prevalent. And like a lot of high schools then, there's the in group and there's the out group and the school was not very good about keeping track of where the kids were.

02:54:00.260 - 02:54:24.740

We didn't know what all was going on, skipping of school and stuff for a long time. She's long since recovered from all of the hair pulling that I did and she was going to get her own thing come up with now I'm afraid. But I laugh because she is very much like me in lots of ways.

02:54:25.900 - 02:54:42.360

And she told me the other day on the phone, she says, "Mama, I hate to say this, but I'm getting more like you every day." And she is, she's so involved in volunteer work and working with her kids and stuff. The only place we part company is on church.

02:54:43.100 - 02:55:06.780

I'm sorry to say none of my children have been baptized and nobody goes to church. So I'm still hoping. Tell me about some of the things you do now. After moving here, I worked with the university on social things because it was a young, young

02:55:07.040 - 02:55:32.040

small group and so we had a lot of activities there. Then because our children were in college, at this point we had son Robert, who is the oldest, he was at the University of California in Santa Barbara. He had completed two years at OSU and said he did not want to go on. He wanted to find out what he wanted to do. So he kicked around for a year going all over

02:55:31.960 - 02:55:56.760

the country trying to find himself. And then he chose University of California in Santa Barbara because of somebody he had met out there. And that's where he went to school and he was finally aiming for pre-med. So he was carrying a heavy load but he was also working and helping with his things but the tuition was heavy. George was at OSU which

02:55:56.760 - 02:56:21.340

was also heavy drain, but he too was working. And Ellie moved down here after we had come down. She just changed her mind and decided to come down here, so we had two of them, but Anne was in high school and Ellie went to work here in food service, which is her other love and mine too. But with that many people in school and in college, and then

02:56:21.380 - 02:56:44.680

Anne was a senior in high school and she was getting ready to go off to college, so that us one more, but she finished her first two years at Victoria Junior College and Ellie came and went to school at the college here also. And then they both moved to Austin where Ann continued on at UT and Ellie was in the community college up there but then she went

02:56:44.740 - 02:57:19.820

to work and she got married. A marriage that we would rather have not seen take place but she was twenty-one and so that's that. But I went back to work in this interim because we couldn't afford all this college bit. And I went to work as the administrative assistant for the Texas Rehabilitation Commission office here. I worked for the head of the commission

02:57:19.760 - 02:57:50.640

office here, and I was his administrative assistant. And after I had served in that capacity for about a year, the state discontinued that job statewide. And the same time that happened, the university was facing folding very close, and they had a big uproar. And the new administration that came in and some of the other professors and stuff that were

02:57:50.740 - 02:58:10.100

here but wanted to make changes that really weren't in the books. Bob got fired and we celebrated our anniversary, which we celebrate at Christmas time every year with a great big party. And that particular Christmas, Bob was out of a job, I was out of a job, We bought a house.

02:58:10.990 - 02:58:22.540

We had a hundred and some odd people coming to the house for the weekend. They said, "How can you all throw a party when you're both out of work?" Bob says, "It'll work out." And it did.

02:58:22.960 - 02:58:45.420

The administration that fired him all got fired. Bob was reinstated, so we didn't miss a beat there. I didn't get my job back, but I still continued to work for rehab. I was sort of downsized. I didn't lose much salary, but I was downsized to one of the secretary's positions that

02:58:45.740 - 02:59:08.940

had come open. I worked there for another... Well, I retrained the new director. Then I began getting in trouble because I'm a whistleblower, and I saw stuff going on that I didn't like. And the more I tried to call attention to it, the worse it got. And I was really in bad physical shape.

02:59:10.500 - 02:59:25.520

I was -- I just couldn't take it any longer. And I wouldn't admit what was causing it, and the doctor kept saying, "Quit your job." And so I finally did. But I worked there for, I think, two and a half years.

02:59:26.670 - 02:59:55.840

And then after that, I decided to go to school myself, because by this time, we'd graduated other people and other things have changed. So I went back to school there. But volunteer-wise, to bring you really up to date, I had been working at the soup kitchen for fifteen years now. I wasn't always head cook because the first three years I came in when the doors

02:59:55.800 - 03:00:25.100

open and we didn't even have a stove. We served peanut butter sandwiches then. Then we started cooking at home and taking the food there and then we gradually began to build and this was Church Women United. Church Women United started this kitchen and kept it going initially for the first, I think, four or five years. And gradually it became

03:00:26.020 - 03:01:00.500

self-sustaining. But it's all volunteers, and we nowadays serve close to 200 people almost every day. We ask no qualifications for eating there. There's no government red tape there and we are completely supported by free will offerings and every time we need something money is there. We have CDs in the bank. We have enough money to run for about

03:01:00.600 - 03:01:26.800

three years even if we never received another penny. But the people who support us know that what we're doing with the money is well spent. If the government had been in there, we couldn't take anybody that wanted to come in. We don't ask any questions of anybody. If you want to eat there, you can come. And we do have some freeloaders, but we've also

03:01:26.880 - 03:01:49.900

got a lot of people who are desperate, and some of them are desperate just for company, some of them for other things. But I took over as a head cook at least ten years ago, I cook every Tuesday and it's more involved than just cooking on Tuesday because on Monday you're going over there to find out what you're going to cook and getting the preparation.

03:01:50.160 - 03:02:13.540

And I have an all-volunteer crew, most of them from my church, who come in to help cook. And it's been ongoing now for fifteen years. Can I ask you, Eleanor, have you ever had an opportunity to witness to any of those people or to encourage them in some way?

03:02:13.900 - 03:02:33.460

You mean to get to work or for religious? To encourage them in any way that they can make a difference also. Oh yes, we try to encourage it and we have had a lot of people who have been launched because they were helped and those have repaid us.

03:02:34.920 - 03:02:55.900

And we pick up where the Salvation Army and the Victoria Christian Assistance Ministry who was supposed to be formed to help the indigent financially and socially with counseling and stuff. It has not done what it should do and so we pick up a lot of the people who are falling

03:02:55.800 - 03:03:21.060

through the cracks and we probably spend as much money assisting people financially as we do in the food and that's about fifty five thousand dollars a year and some of it's down the drain but some of it is not and it's people who need emergency help with their rent and we don't pay the full amount we make them justified and we don't help the same people

03:03:21.200 - 03:03:37.840

again and again and again either. Can you remember any one person that stands out in your mind? That we helped? Not by name or anything, but we have had a lot of them who have come through there.

03:03:39.860 - 03:04:06.200

I would say really it is a very excellent program and it's fun. If it wasn't something we enjoyed doing, those of us that worked there wouldn't do it. And it's a cross section of people who work there. And it's like Habitat for Humanity, which is another place that I have actively participated

03:04:06.420 - 03:04:22.700

in. We now have built, I think, I think we've built fifteen houses here. And I did have a hard time breaking in there. I couldn't convince some of the men that I was quite handy with a hammer and other

03:04:22.820 - 03:04:38.260

things. Finally, one of the young people whose house we were building, after I had been bluntly turned down and told I could go wash windows, I said, "I didn't come here to wash windows. I came here to use this hammer."

03:04:38.260 - 03:04:53.360

And this young fellow says, "I'll show you how to put the siding on." I can put on aluminum siding. I know how to put on aluminum siding. I've sighted, done sighting on at least three of the houses here.

03:04:54.860 - 03:05:20.200

Bob and I painted a lot of the interiors and I still think that's a marvelous program. I love seeing those houses go up because everything improves the minute that house goes in. The neighborhood where you stick it might be a horrible neighborhood, but to see the joy in those people's houses and their willingness to take on that indebtedness. And we haven't

03:05:21.960 - 03:05:38.860

-- I don't think we've had anybody fail to continue on their house since we started. So I was glad to see that program. Vicky Redmond: Eleanor, could I back you up? I forgot to ask you. When the WASPs were asking for veteran status, what part did you play in that?

03:05:42.560 - 03:06:14.580

Only what I'll call a backwater part, but I still think an important part, I did an awful lot of letter writing. And I solicited a petition here to encourage people to write to their congressman, to our congressman from the local group, and to speak out at their veterans units and things, VFW and things like that. And I wrote, I can't tell you

03:06:14.660 - 03:06:39.700

how many letters I wrote to Senators and Congressmen. I wrote to Time Magazine, I wrote to Carter. And I did get responses and it was kind of sad because so many of the responses were just you know, just the same old, "Yes, we know all this about this and we're working on it, but it was the same letter that kept coming from so many angles. I thought, "You're

03:06:39.700 - 03:06:59.620

not listening." And of course, I was not up in the Washington group. I was encouraging those that I knew that were up there. What was your feeling about veteran status? I thought we should have had it from day one. I really did. They promised it to us, and

03:06:59.600 - 03:07:26.900

they should have given it to us. And I was furious when I first picked up the paper and saw that the Navy was going to try to teach women how to fly. And I thought, "What did they do with all of our stuff? All the testing they did on us, what did they do with all the data they collected?" And I sat right down and I wrote a hot letter. I'm a letter

03:07:26.820 - 03:07:50.840

to the editor writer also among other things I vowed when I came down here I wouldn't attend city council meetings and fight zoning and do things like that which I was doing every other place I went and I didn't last more than two months when I was down at city council here about something or another so I worked on that score a lot independently

03:07:50.840 - 03:08:23.460

I was on the Parks and Rec board for a while. But I wrote this hot letter to the editor, and I have that letter in here, pointing out to the general public, "This has already been shown. Please write and let your congressman know." But other than that, you know, I didn't what else I could do, much else. And when I first arrived here, I don't know how somebody

03:08:23.520 - 03:08:47.400

found out about it, but shortly after we'd been here, not too long, I had a call from the Advocate newspaper and they had a reporter that wanted to do a piece on me. And she did an excellent piece, a very large piece. It has this big photo like this in. What was the focus of it?

03:08:48.320 - 03:09:14.620

The wasp and what we had done and things like that. It came out in the Sunday morning paper and I am an early riser, but about seven o'clock in the morning, I had been up for a while, but my phone rang and I thought, "Who is calling me at seven o'clock in the morning?" And it was Dede Deaton's sister, Mrs. Stiles, who lives here in Victoria.

03:09:15.960 - 03:09:30.900

And she was so excited to see something about the wasp that she could hardly contain herself. And I later went, met, visited with her for quite a while. And she's in a nursing home now. She's still living.

03:09:32.240 - 03:10:03.380

And she's a total opposite from Dede. Dee Dee was so tiny and Miss Stiles is tall, erect, big woman. But I also was interviewed on television here for one of the early programs when I first came. And I've given many talks at the University of Houston. One of the professors who teaches World War II history called on

03:10:03.200 - 03:10:18.060

me, Hal called me a lot to make presentations there, talk to some of the women's clubs and things like that. Let me ask you, looking back over your life, what is the one thing that you're most proud of?

03:10:26.060 - 03:11:01.560

I do not know quite how to answer that. I am very proud of having been a WASP. It was so short, but I am very proud of it. And I was pleased at the Vietnam Memorial the other day. I had two nephews who, in spite of their many tours in Vietnam, one a pilot and one on the ground. They survived and have come through with the exception of the mental problems

03:11:01.600 - 03:11:27.120

that all of them suffer, remembrance and recollections, which I know is hard on them. But on the outside they're fine. And although Mike bailed out over the ocean, he was quickly picked up. I say he was a fighter pilot and the other one is on the ground. But I still always felt a closeness to the Vietnam vets. And so when we were out at the Wall, they had these two

03:11:27.200 - 03:11:58.440

books, "Sign In." And they called us as we came in, "Would you all please mind signing in?" And so we came over to sign in, and he said, "Visitors are signing in here. Veterans are signing in this book." And so then some more people were coming up, and Bob was signing in and I was standing right behind him and Bob turned and handed me the pen and this

03:11:58.560 - 03:12:28.120

man said, "Visitors are to sign this book. That's for veterans." Bob says, "She is a veteran." That made me feel real warm all over because he'd never come out and said I mean I think he's as pleased as I am but that's the first time he'd ever said it when I was around that you know they call attention to it.

03:12:28.960 - 03:12:43.220

And the fellow said, he says, "I was speaking to the other couple." I don't think he was but I was pleased so I signed it too. But they didn't ask you know what we were. It was just simply what if you were a veteran sign it.

03:12:43.580 - 03:12:57.440

So I'm pleased to be able to do that. I think we deserved it because we were promised it and I think it should have been given early on. What would you like your legacy to be?

03:13:01.540 - 03:13:20.040

Well I would like to think it would be that I had been a good wife and parent. I look at what my kids are doing these days and I think, "Oh no, I must have failed someplace." But then I read other books and think, "Well, no, we raised them to be independent, free

03:13:20.140 - 03:13:35.660

thinkers and we have three college graduates. We have one that did not. The one who was aiming for med school didn't get in and I'm not sure what he's doing at this point."

03:13:35.660 - 03:13:58.180

They're all self-supporting as far as we know yes, but I don't think Robert was ever really Meant to be a doctor. I think he thought he wanted to be one because he wanted to minister to the Indian tribes He had some very close college friends who were in Native Americans and

03:13:59.420 - 03:14:14.360

when he moved out to California and Went to Nevada a number of times he was thrown amongst Indians again there but some of his close friends were American Indians from OSU and I think Robert really wanted to

03:14:15.160 - 03:14:31.660

Help in the medical field with them But I don't think he was dedicated not to really pursue it and we papered the world with applications to med schools But Robert was still and still has hair down to here which many of the

03:14:31.660 - 03:15:01.680

'70s, grouped in. Robert was not a hippie, not really. Now, when he went out to California, a lot of things changed. But we were still close. We corresponded frequently. We talked on the phone frequently. But when it came to sending that many more applications, because Every time you send out a medical school application, it is a very costly procedure.

03:15:02.740 - 03:15:21.000

And one day I just sat down and wrote him, I said, "Robert, I'm sorry. We cannot afford to send any more of these. You're going to have to do it on your own." And he did receive some spots where he was interviewed and things like that, but only

03:15:21.080 - 03:15:31.100

one was for an alternate. And so he didn't go. But I think, I don't know, if he had cut his hair, it would have been different because at that time they weren't hiring.

03:15:32.840 - 03:15:45.140

But he felt it was compromising his principles. He had a right to wear long hair if he wanted to. He had it since he was in high school. It wasn't as long as it got.

03:15:46.600 - 03:16:04.500

His brother's hair is also down to here. And it didn't interfere with George's employment, but George's degree was in horticulture, and he's a certified tree surgeon. And I thought, "Well, I hope he is not going to be like, well, Senior Moment, the biblical

03:16:04.700 - 03:16:32.900

character who had his gorgeous hair caught in the tree, and the enemy slayed him, and Absalom." your long hair, but it's always very neatly tied back. And of late, he said he's too old to be a tree surgeon, and his body is creaking because he's forty-six now. But

03:16:33.260 - 03:17:06.080

Robert lives in a small little community in Genoa, Nevada, and he's lived there since he's since his graduation and he's self-supporting but but we don't some some thoughts on it not having become a grandparent until I was seventy that's that's a long time and maybe if my children had married earlier or had children earlier that might have been a difference

03:17:06.080 - 03:17:38.200

I don't think so. The tenor of the times, they were disenchanted with the church in the 70s because they saw churches doing things and shunning people that they should have been embracing. And I think this was part of the problem. Also, the lifestyle now is people are forced into two-income things. Daughter Ann, the youngest, she is a chemical

03:17:38.280 - 03:18:02.720

engineer. That's what her degree was in. And Bob's sister was the first chemical engineer from the University of Texas to graduate, the first woman. And I don't know whether Ann saw that or whether her bent was that direction, but that's the direction she was in and she's married to a geologist and in oil exploration. And so for a while before

03:18:02.720 - 03:18:26.360

they had children, Anne was working in her field. But then when they moved overseas, she was doing other things and the oil bust had come in and she was without a job because she lost her job because they knew John was being transferred. So she hunted in Houston and couldn't find one and decided to just be a housewife and they were married for over

03:18:26.380 - 03:18:56.460

fourteen years before they were children but the other have been struggling out in California and Ellie was working David was working very long hours so when they've had children they have no free time to go she's not working now but she's doing volunteer stuff so I think young families today need to look closer to the things and I wish that the schools would

03:18:57.160 - 03:19:27.260

focus more on love of country, trust in government, but unfortunately we've got a government right now that we really can't trust and it's very unfortunate and maybe always there's been things going on that we weren't as aware of as we're aware of things now. Peccadillo's and everything else. But I would like to see the loyalty of our country come together as

03:19:27.280 - 03:19:46.820

it was in World War II. Because to me, I think Tom Brokaw in his book captured something when he said the greatest generation. I never felt like I was the greatest generation or But I think we did do a lot. And I think surviving...

03:19:47.840 - 03:20:18.560

I think there was a higher sense of morality. There was a higher sense of independence of the individual, responsibility, personal responsibility. Right now, people are not responsible for anything, it seems to me. pick up the lawsuits and the paper. And I think that much of the so-called boomer generation,

03:20:18.680 - 03:20:47.020

we sort of fell a little bit behind that. I mean my kids weren't quite old enough to be boomers but they really sort of are. And I think the acquisition of material goods And I think they do, some of them do volunteer stuff and they are helpful to other people in their own circle, very helpful.

03:20:48.760 - 03:21:04.340

Helpful to elderly and things like this. I see that when I'm with them, kindly. But they're not church goers and I wish that they were for the morality and the caring aspects of it.

03:21:05.000 - 03:21:28.600

But I do wish that schools could give kids a more thorough education. I don't think they're doing it. And the paper this morning had an editorial, "Give the teachers a decent salary and you'd have decent teachers." And it's true. School teachers, if you don't have school teachers, nobody could get to be a lawyer or a doctor or anything else if

03:21:28.600 - 03:21:53.380

they weren't taught. So why are teachers so low? I don't know. But the lifestyle makes it hard for people to go to church, and I think this is another reason. And neither of my -- no, one of my son-in-laws, while he was baptized, his family, the whole family, back to the grandparents, was not particularly church-oriented. They attended sometimes,

03:21:53.560 - 03:22:24.160

but it was not an important factor in their lives. And I was raised differently than that, so was Bob, even though I had a Catholic father. The Roman Church took my dad back into the church. He was a fully restored member, even though he had been thrown out of the Catholic Church and denied communion all those years. He could take it in the Presbyterian Church,

03:22:24.200 - 03:22:44.060

but he wouldn't. But the Catholic Church changed his stance, so all of us were legitimized because we were illegitimate in the eyes of the Catholic Church. I had four children. Why did they throw your dad out? Because he married my mother and wouldn't sign the contract to raise us as Roman Catholics.

03:22:46.960 - 03:23:21.060

He played 18 holes of golf, would go to Mass even though he couldn't participate, and he came to the Presbyterian Church. He came with us regularly, but he played 18 holes of golf first. But I just hope that the legacy that I leave behind is that I have raised my children to do right, and I think with the exception of not being churchgoers. They

03:23:21.060 - 03:23:47.020

people. And I hope that they will transmit this to the grandchildren. And I'm hoping and praying that the grandchildren one of these days will. Because I don't think you're a well-rounded person, frankly, without the knowledge of Christianity anyway. So that's That's the way I feel.

03:23:47.760 - 03:24:03.460

And I tell myself I have to live to be 135 to get full benefit from my grandchildren, the oldest not being but seven years of age at this point. So I'll have to get a lot of mileage there. But I enjoy life.

03:24:04.860 - 03:24:33.640

I'm thankful for my health, which is pretty good. And Bob and I have squeezed in vacations, usually in August because that's the only be off. And we've covered a great deal of territory, both in the United States and Canada, Alaska, and to Indonesia twice, and which was in our most recent foray into Panama and

03:24:33.840 - 03:24:51.140

Costa Rica. Could you tell me, Elmer, what is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? I admired her tremendously. I thought anybody who could come up from the hardscrabble existence that she did and accomplish

03:24:51.220 - 03:25:21.220

what she did and to be as caring of her girls as I found her. Now I don't know whether other people felt that or not, but one of the first reunions was held out in California, the Indio one. There was no way I could possibly have gone to that one. But I wrote her a note just saying I wish that I could have come there. And she

03:25:21.280 - 03:25:44.400

sent me the miniature wings that she had given all the other girls who had gone to Indio. And I thought, "She didn't have to do that. I didn't go to Indio, but I treasure those wings. They're those little bitsy ones that you can barely see. And they're visible enough that when I'm wearing them, I've had people recognize what it was. And I had a young pilot,

03:25:45.260 - 03:26:14.520

he was an airline pilot, that was just riding on a plane. And I could see that he was looking at me. And he said, "Are those wasp wings?" And I said, "Yes, they are." And he was familiar with the wasp. So I wear them and they barely stick out. But I admire Jacqueline Cochran tremendously. I really did. And I think a lot of people have faulted her for our demise.

03:26:16.780 - 03:26:48.040

I can't do that because I don't think, I think it was circumstances and I really hated read about some of the problems between Nancy Love and all that stuff that I was not really aware of until I read Bird's book. And forgive me for saying this, the book was a travesty to me. It wasn't what I thought we were getting. Statistically, it's got a lot of stuff in

03:26:48.080 - 03:27:14.200

it that's, I think, pretty good, but I wish it hadn't taken the direction because I thought be the WASP history and some of that stuff, I think would be better left lying someplace else because I felt she was reporting firsthand conversations that I don't know how she was privy to the information because she was quoting so much, so I don't know.

03:27:25.680 - 03:27:47.000

I'm not sure. I've got one that I was accused of using all the time before I went to the WASP and afterwards, and I've told you a million times. I don't know whether that That must be my favorite phrase or not. But I don't know that I have a particular word.

03:27:47.000 - 03:28:12.420

I love words. I really do. And I'm sorry every time I pick up the newspaper and see words misused, misspelled. I know language changes always, but I think we've lost the beauty of it. William F. Buckley

03:28:13.200 - 03:28:40.060

was always one of my favorite people, is still, because of his flow of language. And we have a common thread too, which he and I enjoyed sharing when he came to speak here. And I never met him, but his parents were in Tampico at the same time my parents were and my mother dated his father. And so we joke about the fact that if his mother and, I mean my mother

03:28:40.120 - 03:28:56.760

and his father had married we'd be brother and sister. It was just a little private joke when I finally met him when he spoke here, you know, it was early on in the mid-70s, Well, early 80s I guess it was. But he's still one of my favorites.

03:28:57.040 - 03:29:04.860

He had been my favorite long before I, you know, even... You knew that you could be relatives. Yeah, knew. Well, I sort of knew about it, but I wasn't much on family history.

03:29:07.000 - 03:29:23.920

But I don't know that I've got a favorite word, but I know one of my favorite things is the beauty of flight, and I catch rides when I can. And I love flying. I stare out the window when I'm in that plane.

03:29:24.480 - 03:29:53.040

What do you see out the window? The clouds, the jewels on the ground at night, which I was so thrilled because I remember my first night flight when I first realized how gorgeous it was, how scared I was initially on that first solo night flight. I was not scared other times. I love to see those jewels

03:29:53.160 - 03:30:18.620

on that black velvet when you fly over town or the distant lights. I like the gathering storms even though I sure do not want to fly through any of them, having done so. I think that beautiful poem about reaching out and touching the face of God is one that I've got framed on here.

03:30:24.440 - 03:30:32.280

I think that's a good place to leave it. Thank you very much. Well, it has been my pleasure. It really has.

03:30:36.620 - 03:30:46.700

[AUDIO OUT] - As a matter of fact, yesterday afternoon, I lost by seven. Had a cold and float. I really not-- not to bring coats much at all, but--

03:30:47.000 - 03:31:01.220

- Is this a P40? - Which-- the olden days. No, we were a good match. Bob had a lot of things that I really liked about him.

03:31:02.120 - 03:31:18.980

But I had a typewriter and a car. That's why he married me. I typed all of his papers. Try it again. So see I might not have gotten, I might not have snagged him if I hadn't typed his papers.

03:31:19.440 - 03:31:33.420

Right. Let's go all the way out on this. I see the whole thing, but it's very dark. Okay.

03:31:35.200 - 03:31:50.680

There is, uh, A20 is, A26 is, B26 is, I finally was able to get that years ago. It had been classified as top secret information. And, uh, hello.

03:31:51.140 - 03:32:02.440

Top secret information, at this point, I don't know if I'm going to release it, but, uh, your strip joints were... Oh!

03:32:02.560 - 03:32:10.040

I wasn't really impressed with what I saw. [laughter] Oops. I can get this.

03:32:10.520 - 03:33:01.580

But I had seen it. *Petting* Yeah, this is... I think I just got this.

03:33:06.700 - 03:33:32.260

My granddaddy used to grow tomatoes. Well, when you see the bushes that they're growing on, you'll marvel that we're getting any tomatoes at all, because they are so scraggy. But we're not caring as long as it's producing. Don't do that, do about halfway there. There we go. Let's get the wings. There we go.

03:33:33.280 - 03:33:45.720

Four times. Not to mention all the other trips that they take. Mickey's Baymates. So. Here we go.

03:33:50.660 - 03:34:05.520

I think so. Oh, these are, these two are good. I guess these are both good. I told your mother on the phone the other night, Nancy, when I was at Galveston, before.

03:34:06.360 - 03:34:22.000

It's still in the hangar. They're not through with it yet. Oh, still working. They're still working on it. But, he had been talking to some young, typical, than a wasp. And I said, "Those are the kindest words I've heard in my whole life."

03:34:22.320 - 03:34:32.340

I said, "I thank you for the compliment, but I am a wasp." - Woo! - Yeah. - It was very dark in the hangar,

03:34:32.420 - 03:34:55.200

that was the reason, I'm sure. Neither of you have a preference on pickles, whether you get a sweet one. - Sign her copy.

03:34:55.400 - 03:35:04.080

You have to... Doing work is just... With your hands? Well, I think there are more ways to volunteer than just...

03:35:04.080 - 03:35:10.900

I'm thinking of a way to help Deanie. Really, yeah. Special that they would do that. I'll give them that, Deanie, but that's all.

03:35:11.120 - 03:35:17.640

That's about it, yeah. Those two girls that were killed the day after you got here, the day before, whatever. Yeah.

03:35:18.060 - 03:35:33.540

One of them was one door down from me. Yeah. Mary Housum. We lost Deanna Roberts and we lost two out of our class. - Were they on the field or near the field

03:35:33.600 - 03:35:48.740

when it happened or cross country? - One of them was on cross country. It's really a shame that she didn't make it because I think she didn't have her safety belt on

03:35:48.840 - 03:36:07.660

or something when she put it down for her. You know, this is what I frequently do, and you see I've already shoved some things over here in my chair. I had a bulletin board with this on. I'm going to give all my assistant cooks, both here and at the church, the Golden Spoon Award. Oh, how neat! How neat!

03:36:07.880 - 03:36:24.420

Habitat for Humanity has opened a store here called ReStore, and they get donations and use stuff. and they were told Floyd was going to start eating him. And suddenly the hostess said to her husband, you haven't served Mac yet.

03:36:25.200 - 03:36:32.880

Well, Mac had eaten everything. He was left to go to an empty plate. He had been served, and he had consumed it. And other people were just barely starting.

03:36:33.100 - 03:36:54.600

And he was just-- I was so embarrassed. His namesake, son George, is the opposite. George takes so long to eat. You might get invited to have dinner,

03:36:54.720 - 03:36:59.780

or he'll come down here and say, I wanna cook dinner. He'll be down fishing in the coast and bring fish back. I'll cook it.

03:37:01.080 - 03:37:10.960

Four hours later, we make it now. And it's marvelous, 'cause in the morning. We have time to drive to California, but it's a long drive out,

03:37:11.100 - 03:37:23.520

and that means we have to stay there week because if you go that close to Yosemite, you want to go to Yosemite. Oh. I got a trip sometime, so we could cover more territory that way.

03:37:24.720 - 03:37:38.280

But the last two years, we've gone to Houston. To be land, John flew out back stateside and the Pigeon stateside. John is still flying. Lord knows where.

03:37:38.740 - 03:37:48.460

He'll get home for one trip and he's off on another. I think. They had just come back. The two of them have been off someplace.

03:37:50.020 - 03:37:58.960

Oh, they've been in Bayville. 'Cause they come home for skiing, all of a sudden. - It's bad. - But he's with another,

03:37:59.000 - 03:38:06.780

all coming down, he's going another direction. - He's gone. - All coming. But the kids are in school now, so she, they wanted to, you know, settle.

03:38:12.780 - 03:38:27.900

I was weary of that much travel. But I'm through traveling. Well, Anne's best friend. Yeah, that's why we came down here. We're through traveling. Right. Well, I know what she means. This is true. And that's why I couldn't come.

03:38:29.680 - 03:38:42.560

I didn't know. I didn't know. - I would be more excited. Somebody just said, "Here's a free trip." I'd say, "Thank you very much."

03:38:42.840 - 03:38:55.780

- Can we cash this in? - Yeah. (laughs) But I'm not through traveling around here. He wants to go back to Alaska.

03:38:56.300 - 03:39:07.680

Maybe I can trade that off and she'll go to Indonesia. 'Cause I mean, Thailand. Thailand-- - In Birmingham, then move in during the night.

03:39:08.220 - 03:39:29.260

it yeah during the night and he'd sleep during the day. Anyway three months later he went in the heights and stuff. But about six months ago I went up to speak to the names of some of Bill's crew because I had remembered him talking about them. I said if you see any you know. Anyway when I came home that day I told Nancy, I said I met this guy

03:39:29.960 - 03:39:40.500

on the 450th and gave her the name of one of the crew members sent it to me. gave her his name and his phone number. It was one of the three. - This is Wilma Miller.

03:39:41.820 - 03:39:47.080

And this other. - Been in your class? - They were my classmates. - Oh, okay.

03:39:47.700 - 03:40:01.960

- And Wilma was one of my roommates, roommates. Anyway, this one guy gave me the names. You're not gonna believe who this is. This is your pilot's wife speaking.

03:40:03.380 - 03:40:18.800

Anyway, it has been wonderful. I've gotten in touch with every one of them. So my brother-in-law, who was the physician, never talked much about what went on in the camp.

03:40:22.160 - 03:40:36.400

Margie didn't press her anything. And she said one day, they were contacted, and it was the bomber group that Angus had been attached to. and they were compiling a book.

03:40:38.400 - 03:40:50.820

And it was some of the things that Angus had done. And they were all in there. He had gone into burning B-25, rescued people out of there. I mean, he was a flight surgeon, he wasn't mine.

03:40:51.520 - 03:41:04.520

But all these different things. And she says, "I had no idea what you'd done." But they had all the crews and all everything. I don't know that I ever knew what bomber group my brother was with.

03:41:05.340 - 03:41:27.560

You know, those kinds of things, I wrote to him, but where I wrote, I don't remember. And my letters home, I thought were so dumb, I didn't even want to turn them in to WVU. And, what is her name? Come.

03:41:31.940 - 03:41:46.040

It's a funny name. Carol Bosca. I was a wasp. And so when I went to visit Angus one year, Bob and I were on one of our swings, and we built him into,

03:41:46.580 - 03:41:59.060

I met Carol for the first time and she's just a joy and a delight. She had such fun. And she and Nadine Canfield, who was one of my classmates, were close friends, and Betty Turner.

03:42:00.400 - 03:42:08.600

But they were what I wrote. They were what I was reading about. And they could tell about the training and stuff. But it was just dumb things.

03:42:08.640 - 03:42:17.600

The things I was writing home to ask my parents to send me. Send me an ironing board. Oh, no. I had for a reason remarkable things.

03:42:20.680 - 03:42:32.200

But and send me my favorite sweater and send me those you know. But in between I was telling them what we were doing. So I had good weather. Now we didn't see you.

03:42:32.200 - 03:42:42.180

See you were in the winter. I was in the winter and we had terrible flying. But I came in April. We had good weather except for the dust storms and

03:42:43.980 - 03:43:09.180

things like that but most of the time it was just that we would sit on that flight line and wait oh and wait and wait everybody in town and out there on the auxiliary field with nothing even to sit on that was terrible nancy has has the replica and a bracelet and sugar sparkles

03:43:10.860 - 03:43:37.500

And I have, I think I have, you got me one didn't you? I never wear it. Oh. But she wears hers. Oh really? The Blue Angels got humidors. But he said he didn't think that the women needed humidors. But it's a chest and I've got, I keep a lot of my stuff. Beaver Creek. Edwards, yeah. Beaver Creek. Yeah. They bought a home up there. Well I say the kids, my kids have.

03:43:37.500 - 03:44:08.800

Is that where they ski? They ski in Vail. .