00:00:00.000 - 00:00:15.060

And I said, "Oh Nancy, forget it." I said, "I don't care. It's over. It's all done with. I don't care." And she put her little finger in my face and she said, "But I care." And she said, "And kids care."

00:00:15.060 - 00:00:29.000

Well, my children and grandchildren are beginning to write, think about it more than they used to. Used to didn't have it. Right. Well, children, I have found out in giving talks. In Hattiesburg, Mississippi.

00:00:29.140 - 00:00:41.460

Do you want to say that one more time? Sorry, it just caught up with itself. Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish and we're in the home of Edna Hines Bishop. She was a WASP, Class 43W4.

00:00:42.200 - 00:00:54.900

We're in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. It's the 9th of August, 2000. Okay, Edna, if you'll just tell us who you are and where you were born and about your early childhood and we'll go from there.

00:00:55.800 - 00:01:13.420

Well, I'm Edna Bishop. Most people here in Hattiesburg call me Kitty. But I was born in Custer County, Oklahoma, February the 29th, 1916. Where is Custer County?

00:01:14.980 - 00:01:23.340

What section of Oklahoma? It's near Clinton, Oklahoma. Okay. Did you have siblings?

00:01:24.320 - 00:01:44.140

I have one brother. He was five years older than me. Kelly: When you were born, did you live in a town or did you live in the country? Rutherford: Well, I think I was at my grandmother's house out in the country.

00:01:46.130 - 00:02:02.260

Kelly: What are your earliest recollections about growing up? Where were you living? Redmond-Well, I lived in several towns. I can't remember the names of them.

00:02:02.680 - 00:02:12.100

Kelly - Okay. As you were growing up, Edna, were you living in the country most of the time? Redmond-No, I lived in small towns usually. Kelly - Okay.

00:02:12.880 - 00:02:32.020

When you started school, where did you start school? Redmond-I started school in a little town called Manitou, Oklahoma. What was your family, what was your dad doing? He was a head of a car dealership and he was a mechanic.

00:02:33.640 - 00:02:54.420

As you were growing up, did your grandparents live nearby? No they always lived in Custer County. In fact, one of the nice things about him living there is that in the summertime I usually myself to Clinton and they'd pick me up and take me to the farm.

00:02:55.380 - 00:03:15.780

What did you love about that farm? Oh, I loved riding horses and a little creek ran through the farm and the children, my cousins and I would go down and go swimming. It was just a fun time.

00:03:18.140 - 00:03:28.320

What did your grandfather raise on that farm? Mostly cotton, I believe. Did they have electricity and indoor plumbing? Oh, no.

00:03:29.300 - 00:03:47.960

Tell me what that was like, being able to use a kerosene lamp? Yes. That was, I didn't like that at all for one thing. One of my jobs was to wash the kerosene lamp, and it was always hard to get to.

00:03:49.260 - 00:04:00.100

I didn't like that at all. Tell me about your grandmother cooking. Did you ever help her cook? Well, a little bit.

00:04:01.480 - 00:04:20.440

She usually did most of the cooking. I remember when we had family dinners at the farm, the children were always the last ones to eat now, they were the first, I think. But we didn't get the good part of the chicken, usually what was left over we got.

00:04:21.580 - 00:04:36.060

So I think that's the biggest thing I remember. Kelly: When you would go visit them in the summertime, usually how many cousins would come at the same time? Well, I had cousins who lived in a farm near there.

00:04:37.220 - 00:04:59.500

So there were five of them, so usually I had somebody that I could play with. And would your brother go to the farm also? Yes, he didn't go when I did though. So one of the things I liked about the farm too was thrashing time.

00:05:00.300 - 00:05:15.860

My grandfather had a great big threshing machine. This was before the combine. We loved to play on that old thresher after they stopped using it. Tell me what a threshing machine is.

00:05:16.020 - 00:05:41.020

Well it's a machine that thrashes wheat. When you got through thrashing you had the wheat and you had what was left over. You could use any way you liked. As a young child, Edna, tell me what a Christmas was like at your house.

00:05:41.780 - 00:06:00.680

What would you do for Christmas? Well, of course we always went to church. I remember the church always had stocking for children, had banana and an orange and an apple and candy, which was a delightful thing.

00:06:01.480 - 00:06:21.840

And sometimes the parents would carry some toy to be handed out to you. So that was fun, too. We really didn't do much for Christmas as we do now. Would your grandparents come to your house or would you go to their house?

00:06:21.860 - 00:06:31.300

Usually we went to their house. And would all the cousins come? All the cousins would be there. We'd have a big dinner.

00:06:32.440 - 00:06:46.460

Would your grandmother have a Christmas tree? No, no tree. In fact, one of the first times I think my family had a tree was—well, it wasn't the first, but one of the times I remember.

00:06:49.760 - 00:07:05.440

It was kind of a depression time then. We really didn't have a Christmas tree, but we did have a beautiful fir tree out in the front yard. So my mother and dad had gone someplace, and we decided we wanted a Christmas tree.

00:07:07.060 - 00:07:22.080

My brother and I climbed to the top of the tree and cut it out. I'm afraid we thought we were doing something great, but when my parents came home and saw that tree, they didn't like it at all. It was pretty bad.

00:07:22.780 - 00:07:34.060

Did you get punished? Yeah, punished. I can't remember what punishment was, but we never tried that again. Tell me about starting school.

00:07:35.020 - 00:07:50.100

Did you walk to school or did you go on a bus? Yes, I walked to school. In fact, to get to school we had to walk over a little bridge. I remember my first grade teacher was Miss Annarine.

00:07:51.000 - 00:08:16.360

I don't know what her last name was, but she had long hair and was so pretty. One of the things that we had in our school that was supposed to be up to date, we had a sandbox that we could play in. I think we were one of the first schools that had sandboxes when I was young.

00:08:17.340 - 00:08:35.620

That doesn't seem like much now, but it was there. Kelly: In this school, did you have grades combined? Some were, and it went just to one building. It was two stories, but it went all the way through high school.

00:08:36.380 - 00:09:00.280

So there weren't very many children. Kelly: When you finished elementary school, then you stayed at the same school. Reverend: Well, I didn't, but the children who started there did. I finished high school in a little town called Rocky, Oklahoma.

00:09:01.240 - 00:09:21.240

So you moved while you were in what grade? Well, I believe third grade. Do you remember how you felt about having to move and leave your friends? No, I really don't remember that.

00:09:22.580 - 00:09:53.540

What kind of games did you play when you were a young child? Oh, we played crack the whip and 3-D, played ball. We used to get little pebbles and the girls during recess would outline a house that we were going to have someday when we grew up. So we really didn't have a great deal to do.

00:09:53.540 - 00:10:14.580

Of course, we had swings and we had games that we played, but usually we just had to make believe. When you moved to a different town, how far away was that town? Maybe a hundred and fifty miles.

00:10:18.120 - 00:10:39.840

After you moved to this town, then during the summers would you still go back to your grandparents? Yes, we had a small train, well actually we called it the Doodle Bug, I don't know what the official name was, but that would go from my town to Clinton, Oklahoma where they picked

00:10:39.920 - 00:10:51.040

me up. Do you remember what kind of car they had? Oh, it was a Model T. Out on the farm, did your granddad have a wagon?

00:10:52.360 - 00:11:14.880

He had a wagon. Later on, they had other machines, but he started out with a wagon. When you were in this town and started third grade, then how far did you go there before you moved? Did you finish high school at that particular school?

00:11:15.300 - 00:11:39.820

No, I went to two or three other schools, but when I went to high school, I stayed there the full time. Do you remember any of your teachers that influenced you when you were in high school? I remember one particular one that, although I don't remember her name, but I think she

00:11:39.680 - 00:12:00.140

She did more for me than any of the others. She taught English in high school and she did a great job. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And her influencing you into literature or what?

00:12:00.260 - 00:12:15.000

Literature. While you were in high school or junior high school, what activities did you do other than Did they have clubs? Did they have speech?

00:12:15.020 - 00:12:35.860

Did they have debate clubs? We had debate and we also had a Spanish club and we had a home ec club. So if there was a club I was usually involved in it. What did you really enjoy most?

00:12:45.520 - 00:12:58.480

No, sólo amistades, eso es todo. ¿Tuviste atletas en tu escuela? Sí. ¿Cuánto era el tamaño de tu escuela?

00:12:58.740 - 00:13:13.040

Dios mío, no era tan grande. Probablemento, probablemente, demasiado grande. people maybe. When you were in high school, what were your goals? What did you study?

00:13:13.160 - 00:13:36.120

What did you think you would do when you finished high school? Well, goodness, that was so long ago. I had thought I wanted to be a nurse for a long time, and my father said, "No, I couldn't nurse.

00:13:37.720 - 00:13:57.940

So when I graduated, then I went to Southwestern State Teachers College to be a teacher. Kelly: Do you remember your graduation? Tell me about your graduation. McMillan: Well, there were only eighteen of us, and we had a banquet.

00:14:01.080 - 00:14:22.340

But other than that, I can't think of anything particularly, except of course we had to march to get our diplomas. What kind of student were you? I think maybe third from the top or so.

00:14:24.540 - 00:14:40.260

Some things I was good at, as I say, English and home economics. I enjoyed home economics. EC: Okay. While you were in high school, what were your social activities like?

00:14:44.060 - 00:15:02.680

RB: I guess going to the show on the weekends was about the biggest thing that we did. Of course— Were you involved in church activities at that time? Yes, although the church really was just a very small church.

00:15:02.680 - 00:15:25.520

We really didn't have too many activities, unless it was a special event like Christmas. When you graduated then from high school, your brother had already graduated. Where was he? I think he was already working, but I can't remember.

00:15:26.580 - 00:15:44.540

I can't remember what he did. Kelly: When you graduated, then you went to college, how far was that school from home? Beckett: It was about ninety miles. Kelly: What did your parents—how did they feel about you leaving home and the empty

00:15:44.680 - 00:16:00.700

nest? Well, I don't recall they ever said anything about it. What was your dad doing at that time? We had a restaurant.

00:16:01.960 - 00:16:14.980

Did you help in the restaurant? Yeah, I waited tables. And in that way, what did you do with your money? I probably saved it to go to school all night.

00:16:15.780 - 00:16:32.680

In fact, when I was in college, I waited tables some, too. So it gave me a good background. What did you, when you started college, what were your intentions as far as getting a degree and doing what?

00:16:33.340 - 00:17:01.180

Well, I wanted to, my father wanted me to get a certificate to teach, but I also wanted to do office work. So I took shorthand and typing and bookkeeping. So school teachers were paid so little, but then so were the office workers.

00:17:01.300 - 00:17:29.060

I guess everybody was paid little. While you were in college, what was your social life like? Well, I joined several different clubs in college. We didn't dance or have parties like that.

00:17:29.940 - 00:17:55.540

We would have parties, but it mostly would be eating and talking. Tell me about your friends in college. Do you remember any special friends? One special friend left college.

00:17:55.900 - 00:18:16.240

She was really special, but she left college and was married, so I had to find a new best friend. Kelly: And then when you graduated from college, what did you do then? Lowdermilk Honstein Well, I didn't graduate there.

00:18:16.700 - 00:18:34.920

Later I graduated after I was in the WASP. But I did get two years and I did get a certificate that I could teach with, except I didn't teach at that time. But of course they changed that to you had to have four years after that.

00:18:35.980 - 00:18:56.320

Why did you decide to leave college after two years? Goodness. I was just ready to get a job I guess and go to work. So what job did you get?

00:18:57.080 - 00:19:21.220

Well I got a job bookkeeping, but I did go to California. What made you decide to go to California? Well I had a friend that was in high school with me who moved out there, so it gave me a place to go to and I could stay with her.

00:19:22.120 - 00:19:38.000

And what did your family think about that? They didn't like that at all. In fact, I didn't tell my family until I got there. So I had gone off to college and I had gotten a job, but it didn't start until the next

00:19:38.280 - 00:19:54.340

semester. So it was kind of hard to get up enough money to go to college. But anyway, she, my friend in California, asked me to come on out and I did. How did you get there?

00:19:54.440 - 00:20:11.080

I rode the bus. Do you remember that trip? I remember it real well. I was scared, of course, because I was going somewhere new, but I was also scared because

00:20:11.140 - 00:20:25.600

I was leaving home without telling my father. Kelly Reid So where did you go in California? Reed Fresno, California. Kelly Reid So when you got there, then you lived with

00:20:25.660 - 00:20:34.380

your friend? Reed Yes. Kelly Reid And then what did you do? Did you get a job?

00:20:34.380 - 00:20:59.500

Yeah, I got a job, but I was trying to think what I did. I worked at an office machine place, sold office machine paper and things like that, but I don't remember the name. And how long did you stay there and live with her?

00:21:03.860 - 00:21:45.860

Probably a year or so, but I did go to Long Beach and I got a job there. Levy: Edna, do you remember where you were and how you felt when Pearl Harbor happened? Well, I had rented a room with the lady while I was working in Long Beach. We got to be great friends, so we were having breakfast and we listened to it on the radio

00:21:45.940 - 00:22:09.000

and heard it. I don't know my feeling exactly except that I was frightened and I wondered what it would mean in my life. How did it change your life?

00:22:09.460 - 00:22:26.060

Well it changed it in a lot of ways of course. I went into the WASP. I need to back up a little bit too. Before I went to Long Beach to work, I was in Bishop, California working.

00:22:29.360 - 00:22:51.360

This is where I got interested in flying and Bishop, and I soloed there. Why did you get interested in flying? Well I was riding around on Sunday afternoon and I went out to the airport and a young man asked me if I wouldn't like to fly.

00:22:53.020 - 00:23:17.920

So I said yes and I went up and I said, "Well this is for me. This is what I'd like to do." But although it only cost me eight dollars an hour to fly, it was a lot more than—I making that much so if I flew I didn't have hose and I couldn't at that time I

00:23:18.020 - 00:23:48.160

could not see a future in it so that was when I left Bishop and went to Long Beach. Do you remember, tell me about your first solo, was that at Bishop? Yes, well it was in a Piper Cub and at that time Bishop was just a very small airport. It wasn't paved or anything, so you landed in the grass.

00:23:53.440 - 00:24:11.200

I didn't quite have eight hours. I think usually they said you could solo around eight, but anyway my instructor told me to take it around. I did and all I could think of was, "I'm on my own, I'm flying."

00:24:11.480 - 00:24:23.200

It's a great feeling. Did you know any other girls who flew? No, there were no other girls there flying. So what made you think you could do this?

00:24:25.680 - 00:24:40.340

I just didn't think I couldn't, I guess. It was something I really loved and I wanted to do it, so I did it. Did your father know about it? Did your mother and dad know that you were doing this?

00:24:41.380 - 00:25:01.600

No, in fact, when I told them, my father liked how it fit, but my mother said, "It's okay." So that was good enough for me. When you were in California, did you get to go back home and visit? How did your folks find out that you were in California?

00:25:02.300 - 00:25:16.680

I wrote and told them. They also moved to California, so they were living there. They lived in Bakersfield. So you got to visit them often?

00:25:16.940 - 00:25:32.480

Yeah, I could go home anytime I wanted to. Could I ask you about your grandparents when you were in California? Did you get to go back and visit them? When I was in the WASP, my grandfather died, so I did go to his funeral.

00:25:33.280 - 00:26:05.900

But my grandmother lived with us in California eventually. She was ninety-four years old, I believe, when she died. As you were growing up, who were your role models? Goodness, I can't even think of who might have been.

00:26:07.660 - 00:26:26.100

I guess my teachers were mostly. You moved then from Bishop and decided to move to Long Beach. Did you have a job there before you moved, or did you move and then get a job? I moved and then I got a job.

00:26:26.200 - 00:26:52.260

Okay, and what was that job? Well, I was bookkeeper for a place that caught tuna, which was out on Terminal Island. Usually Japanese women would clean the fish. My whole thing, mostly I wrote out checks, their paychecks.

00:26:54.800 - 00:27:16.020

When it was payday, I'd call out their names. Of course, I couldn't pronounce half of them. They'd always get so tickled at me trying to say their names, but their check was okay. And while you were working for this company, did you, were you physically working on Terminal Island?

00:27:16.500 - 00:27:40.520

Yeah, well, I lived in Long Beach and went back and forth. And I would eat breakfast on Terminal Island when I'd get there. I went to a little Japanese cafe. And I loved going there because they'd always bow before they'd serve me and it was just

00:27:40.520 - 00:27:48.280

a neat place to go and the food was great. And was this after Pearl Harbor or before? This was before. Before.

00:27:50.040 - 00:28:08.480

While you were working in Long Beach, did you continue flying? I didn't continue flying. I didn't fly at all down there. My flying was at Bishop, California mostly.

00:28:10.430 - 00:28:31.300

While you were flying at Bishop, did you fly different type small aircraft? Just small aircraft, no other type. T-Craft, the Roncon, the Piper Cub. Why didn't you continue flying at Long Beach?

00:28:32.150 - 00:28:54.240

It just cost too much money. I couldn't afford it. Tell me about the first time you heard about the WASP training. Well, a company was going to build a shipyard in Ternal Island, and I went there to apply

00:28:54.200 - 00:29:24.060

for a job, and I sat next to a woman who had a newspaper in her hand, and she pointed out her daughter that was in a picture in the newspaper and said that her daughter was learning to fly because there was a program that took women in. And she was in Phoenix, Arizona getting her time in an aircraft so she could apply.

00:29:26.360 - 00:29:48.400

So we talked about it a great deal and just sitting there waiting to be called. I decided if there was a place for a future for a woman flying, then that's where I wanted to be. So she gave me her daughter's address, and I left right then and went to Phoenix and

00:29:48.400 - 00:30:07.720

looked up her daughter, who told me all about the WASP when I got there. But I had something to do, and that's what I did. That's what I wanted to do. Kelly: When you went to Phoenix, did your mother and dad know you were leaving?

00:30:09.840 - 00:30:31.420

I doubt it. So when you got to Phoenix, did you get a job there? Yes, I got a job selling rings, Indian rings, other jewelry. So I immediately started flying.

00:30:32.840 - 00:30:56.180

And while I was there I met a girl named Shirley Ingalls who was building her time up. By then I knew all about the WASP and I was trying to build my time up to fly. So we went in together and bought an airplane. We bought a little Piper Cub so that we could fly any time we wanted to.

00:30:56.840 - 00:31:18.900

Because we could rent any amount of time that we had available to anybody else that was trying to build their time up too. So I quit my job at the jewelry store and just flew. While you were flying, did you join any organizations, flying organizations?

00:31:19.180 - 00:31:38.280

Well I belonged to the Civil Air Patrol. What did that involve? So they had a lot of ground school so that we really had some good instructors who gave us good ground school instruction.

00:31:42.460 - 00:32:04.420

We marched. In fact there was an airport dog that adopted me. When I went in, he always came up to me and he was just a typical airport dog. But one time one of the instructors was trying to show me how to turn when I was marching

00:32:05.800 - 00:32:19.600

and he put his hands on my shoulder. Well, this dog really took after this man. I had no idea he was going to protect me, but he didn't touch me again. But the dog was a funny little dog.

00:32:21.730 - 00:32:35.040

Of course, there was a gate that you had to check in to go in and off the airport. And he always left me at the gate. He never wanted to go home with me. He just stayed right there and waited for me to come back to the airport the next day.

00:32:35.820 - 00:33:08.080

While you were flying, did anything unusual happen or interesting happen? Well, not particularly. I did get a telegram saying I was accepted in the WASP. In fact, Jacqueline Cochran had interviewed me there in Phoenix, and then I got a telegram

00:33:08.140 - 00:33:35.700

saying that I was accepted later. But at the end of the time that I was in Phoenix, I got a job—well, Shirley, the one who bought the plane with, she had gotten a telegram from Jacqueline Cochran, and she was in a class earlier than me, so that meant I had this one class period left.

00:33:36.560 - 00:33:58.720

I bought Shirley's share of the airplane and I went to—they needed someone to fly courier service with the Civil Air Patrol, so I went to Las Vegas and I flew, took my plane. They paid me for my plane, too.

00:34:01.030 - 00:34:23.840

I flew courier service from Las Vegas to Cedar City, Utah. When I look back on it now, I think I should have been so frightened because my plane was so small and the terrain was terribly rough. I had a built-in headwind going up to Cedar City every day.

00:34:24.880 - 00:34:51.300

When I turned around and came back to Las Vegas, I had a headwind coming back in there. So I'd usually land with maybe a half a gallon of gas if I was lucky. But anyway, I enjoyed that. When I say courier service, it meant that we were flying mail for the Army.

00:34:52.440 - 00:35:07.760

I took it to Cedar City and then somebody else would pick it up in Cedar City and take it to the different airports. But— Kelly: Before you got that telegram from Jacqueline Cochran, did you know who Jacqueline Cochran

00:35:07.900 - 00:35:14.600

was? Beall: Oh, sure. I knew. Kelly: Tell me about meeting her and the interview.

00:35:15.320 - 00:35:29.300

Beall: Well, she was at a hotel in Phoenix. I don't remember the name of it. I think it was Westward Hope. There were other girls there too that was interviewed at the same time.

00:35:31.580 - 00:36:02.960

She really didn't say much to us. She told us a little bit about the program and what my background in flying was. And then how long did you have to wait before you were told to report to training? Well I think it was maybe a month or so.

00:36:03.460 - 00:36:25.320

It really wasn't very long. While you were flying for the courier service, were there other girls also flying that you knew? I had to go to the Army base to pick up the letters and things that I was to deliver.

00:36:26.240 - 00:36:40.980

There were no ladies' restrooms there, so I had to use the men's if somebody would stand at the door to watch what I did. There were no girls there on the base. At least there were none flying, I don't know whether they were in the office or not.

00:36:45.780 - 00:36:59.840

Anyway that was a little bit unique. I never was comfortable in going in the men's restroom. What airbase was that? I don't know what airbase it was.

00:37:02.280 - 00:37:24.220

At that time, did you see a lot of young men who were in the service or joining the service? What was the mood of the country? What affected you? Steele: There were a lot of young men at Phoenix who were learning how to fly because there

00:37:24.220 - 00:37:52.660

were different jobs that they could take on an army basis that would use this flying ability. So there were a lot of them out there at the airfield getting their time. There were a lot of young men, some middle-aged men too. They were really trying to—well, some of them were anyway—were trying to not be drafted

00:37:52.800 - 00:38:06.800

into something they didn't want to go into. So they wanted to fly. When you met with Jacqueline Cochran, did she tell you what you could expect? What were her expectations for these young women pilots?

00:38:09.580 - 00:38:29.240

Well, she may have told me. I don't remember. Mostly she told us about where we would go in Houston, Texas, and we'd have to live in motel and we would be joining other women who would be learning to fly too.

00:38:32.020 - 00:38:53.200

So, then how were you notified to report for training? Well, the telegram I think, believe me, I believe that was all it was. Of course, we had to pay our way to Houston from wherever we were. Do you remember how you got to Houston?

00:38:55.180 - 00:39:18.560

I believe I rode the train. And walk us through when you arrived at Houston, what happened? Well we had a place at a hotel that we had to report to. Goodness, I haven't thought about this in so many years.

00:39:19.180 - 00:39:36.880

It's kind of hard to remember. I do know this, that I immediately met up with a young girl that I really dearly loved. She was Mary Alice L'Amedou. We were friends and were in the same class.

00:39:38.460 - 00:39:50.220

Did you room together? No, in fact, I roomed with this friend of mine that we had bought the airplane with in Phoenix. She and I had a motel room.

00:39:53.040 - 00:40:01.520

But she was in an upper class? She was in an upper class. So when you got to Houston, there were already girls learning to fly? Yes.

00:40:03.240 - 00:40:23.900

What was a typical day like when you got to Houston? Well, one thing, it wasn't a regular bus that picked us up. I think once upon a time cows had ridden in it, maybe, I don't know, but it was pretty bad.

00:40:24.980 - 00:40:45.420

There were no windows. We'd almost freeze to death before we'd get to the airport. It was so cold, so we had all of our meals at the airport. We flew half a day and then we went to ground school half a day.

00:40:46.240 - 00:41:02.920

What kind of airplanes were you flying? Well at first we just had a mixture. We had T-Crafts, Aroncas, and any other small plane. You didn't know what kind you were going to get the day you flew, whether it was one

00:41:02.920 - 00:41:24.120

Most of them flew alike. I ran into one of my first experiences with death there. The girl that I usually marched with was killed flying. She was the first one to be killed in training.

00:41:24.670 - 00:41:47.000

How was she killed? Well, we think that somebody may have left the crank to crank an airplane in the back of the plane and shoot. They were doing spins and they just spun on in and never tried to recover or anything

00:41:47.160 - 00:41:53.860

else. Of course, there's a lot of speculation. What kind of airplane was she in? I believe it was a Piper Cub.

00:41:55.460 - 00:42:05.120

Do you know what the stock was? Oh, okay. Just going to change things. Can I ask you, we'll back up just a half a second here and ask you about the girl that

00:42:05.120 - 00:42:08.980

was killed. What was her name? Margaret Oldenburg. Okay.

00:42:09.780 - 00:42:29.400

Do you know what happened to her body? Well, she was from San Francisco and someone went with her body to her home. Her husband was in the service too. I'm sorry.

00:42:34.700 - 00:42:58.940

But I always felt a little guilty about Margaret. She was such an attractive girl, but she couldn't carry a tune at all. And she marched next to me and we'd sing, and poor Margaret just couldn't sing at all. I always felt kind of guilty because I thought, "Margaret can't sing."

00:42:59.300 - 00:43:16.860

When someone dies, you feel like you should think all good thoughts. Kelly: Edna, do you know why they were having you fly Piper Cub's things that you had already trained on? Well, I think they were supposed to learn the Army way.

00:43:19.800 - 00:43:32.600

I can't think of what that way was that was any different from what I had already been flying, but anyway. Do you think these airplanes actually belonged to the Army Air Force or were they just civilian planes that you used?

00:43:33.860 - 00:43:48.460

You know, I really don't know. What about your instructors? What were they like? Well, I can't really remember the instructors at Houston so much.

00:43:48.460 - 00:43:59.160

I remember the ones in Sweetwater. But— Kelly: But did you have Army check pilots at Houston? Steele: Yes, Army check pilot.

00:43:59.330 - 00:44:18.300

Kelly: And who was in charge, overall charge, of your unit at Houston? Was it an Army Air Force person or a civilian? Lowry: No, it was a civilian. Let's see, there used to be a name I could remember, but I don't remember.

00:44:19.160 - 00:44:38.280

They were civilian. Kelly: While you were flying at Houston, did the weather interfere a lot with your flying? Lowry: Not a great deal. It was always so cold, and when you think about Houston, you don't think about it

00:44:38.420 - 00:45:07.820

being cold, but it was so cold. All I can remember about it at that time was how cold I was. What kind of equipment were you issued? We had—I guess the only thing I can really think of was zoot suits that we called them,

00:45:08.160 - 00:45:27.760

sort of a coverall that we flew in, and that was it. Now really, we may have had other things, but I don't remember what they were. When you were at Houston, were you going through different stages of flying, like a primary stage and a basic stage?

00:45:28.280 - 00:45:39.600

How did that work? Steele: Well, no. I believe that I was still primary when we went to—although they had changed over to Army planes by then.

00:45:42.990 - 00:46:01.860

Kelly: What kind of Army plane? I think it was PT-19. Kelly: Did there come a time when you left Houston, and do you know why you left Houston? Steele: Well, as far as I know, they just made the decision that we all needed to be

00:46:01.860 - 00:46:24.060

at the same place and Sweetwater was available. So we went there. We flew the Army planes up there because they were closing the base entirely at Houston. While you were at Houston, did some of the—did the first class or second class graduate,

00:46:24.360 - 00:46:41.100

and what was that like? Well, the first class graduated, I believe. But now their graduation was at an Army base near there. Did you participate?

00:46:41.230 - 00:46:53.580

Lowry: No, not at all. I really can't remember. I was trying to think of exactly how that went. I think that they stayed back until they graduated.

00:46:55.840 - 00:47:07.680

It was on, I think, Ellington Field, was that right? But we didn't go to that. Kelly: By that time, had you already moved to Seawater? Lowry: Yes.

00:47:08.700 - 00:47:21.460

Tell me about that trip to Sweetwater. Did you fly one of the planes to Sweetwater? There were two of us in a plane, and I flew part of the way and the other person flew the rest of the way.

00:47:22.260 - 00:47:30.920

We divided it in half. What kind of airplane were you in? I believe it was PT-19. What did you do with your luggage?

00:47:32.920 - 00:47:42.600

Do you remember? I suppose that they had a truck that took it up there. I don't really remember. I wouldn't have had very much anyway.

00:47:43.310 - 00:48:09.740

Kelly: Tell me about when you arrived at Avenger Field, Sweetwater. What were your thoughts when you saw that field? I was pleased I know that, and I thought it was going to be great to have the planes—we could see the planes that we'd go into next.

00:48:12.020 - 00:48:31.840

Kelly: So were the advanced trainers already on the field when you arrived? Steele: Yes. Kelly: Were there already some people flying at that field when the WASP training began? Because the same class that I was in, 43-4, they were stationed there already.

00:48:35.320 - 00:49:01.100

So we had to get used to things all over again because in Houston we ate everything on the base and Sweetwater we had our food. We stayed in a room, all six of us together, called a bay. We marched and we dressed and we ate.

00:49:02.660 - 00:49:21.960

Well everything was at the same field. Kelly: When you arrived at Avenger, were there still male cadets on the field? I really never saw them that is close to them. They left not long after that.

00:49:22.530 - 00:49:47.820

Kelly: So when you arrived at Sweetwater, you were still in primary training? Steele: Yes. Kelly: Tell me about your bay mates at Sweetwater. There were six of us in there, Bay, and we had one large bathroom.

00:49:48.920 - 00:50:02.840

The shower, four or five people could stay under the shower at once, and that was a shocker. I'd never been around women taking showers before. But we always had so little time that it didn't take us long to get over that. You got in the shower and you got out.

00:50:03.900 - 00:50:27.900

But my baymates were from all around the country. I think two of my baymates have died now, but I still correspond with some of them. Kelly: Were they from similar backgrounds? How were they different?

00:50:29.500 - 00:50:47.560

Well, I think most of us were similar backgrounds. I think most of us were sort of middle class. Kelly: Walk me through your schedule for a day. Steele: You mean if I can remember?

00:50:51.220 - 00:51:17.180

Well, we went to ground school half a day, and we flew half a day. Actually the weather was mostly good weather because we rarely ever had to miss any flying time because of weather. Our instructors I thought were good.

00:51:17.480 - 00:51:36.280

Kelly: What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make moving in with five other women? That was the biggest adjustment that I had to make. What was your favorite thing in ground school?

00:51:39.920 - 00:51:57.920

Well of all things it was algebra. Because I hadn't done too well in algebra in high school. I had to study so hard, but I think it paid off because I really made good grades in algebra in the ground school classes.

00:52:01.560 - 00:52:11.540

I would never have thought so when I started out. Did any of your baymates wash out? No. No, nothing washed out.

00:52:11.560 - 00:52:38.740

Did you have any friends who washed out? Well, not close friends, but I had acquaintances that washed out. What was the most unusual thing that happened while you were at Sweetwater? Well I can tell you one thing that I thought I might wash out in.

00:52:39.350 - 00:52:51.840

Of course, we were always frightened that we were going to wash out. We didn't want to. But in basic training I had an instructor that really—some of the instructors were great.

00:52:52.020 - 00:53:13.760

They sat down and before you'd ever fly they would tell you what they expected and what was going on. This one particular instructor would come in to land and he'd yell, "Watch your airspeed."

00:53:13.760 - 00:53:33.400

He didn't tell me that I was diving, he simply told me to watch my airspeed. So instead of correcting him, not diving. Anyway finally got that straightened out, that was all right. I did hate the link trainer.

00:53:36.070 - 00:53:46.360

Kelly: Why? What did you hate about it? Well, for one thing, this instructor, I always got the same one, and he always treated me the same way.

00:53:46.400 - 00:54:02.880

He'd put me in a spin first thing, and I didn't like that at all, because that would disorient me for the rest of the time. I think he got a big kick out of it. I didn't like being closed in either.

00:54:04.040 - 00:54:20.620

Was he a civilian instructor or an Army? He was Army. Who was your commanding officer while you were there? Well, I got it somewhere, didn't I?

00:54:20.940 - 00:54:33.820

That's okay. Do you remember any of the rules that you had to follow? Well, we had to dress according to what flag was flying, and we had to be on time, too, or you got demerits.

00:54:38.060 - 00:55:05.020

I know one particular rule that seems kind of silly now, but at the time, we had grapefruit every morning for breakfast. And evidently we weren't supposed to pick it up and squeeze it after we ate it, because Some of the girls were told not to do that anymore, and then someone wrote a letter saying

00:55:05.060 - 00:55:16.260

we need to squeeze the orange juice since it leaves a lot of the juice in when we eat it. So that got taken care of. You could squeeze the orange juice.

00:55:16.910 - 00:55:39.940

What were your meals like? Well I thought they were good meals at Sweetwater. Now for breakfast we'd often have bacon and eggs and toast and half grapefruit. But no, I didn't like the food in Houston at all.

00:55:43.040 - 00:56:05.320

I can't think of what it was particularly, but it just wasn't good. But at Sweetwater Isle, they had good food. Tell me about a cross country that you might have taken. I really don't remember my cross country.

00:56:08.860 - 00:56:27.900

Do you remember marching and singing? Yeah, our class was great at marching. We sang some too, of course, but I think we liked marching best of all. Did you have time off at any time while you were in training?

00:56:29.240 - 00:56:54.020

No, I did go to my grandfather's funeral and that I can't think of any other time. On weekends what would you do? So we'd go to town and we were able to stay with this lady who asked us to stay. She's a hairdresser there and she'd let us cook.

00:56:54.440 - 00:57:10.620

This friend of mine who was one of my baymates, we'd always go together and we'd make a cake sometimes on weekends. And then on Sunday morning we'd always go to the Methodist Church. I'm Baptist so that was unusual.

00:57:13.320 - 00:57:38.520

Then we had a club on Saturday night. What's the name of the club that most everybody—well anyway, it was just a get-together club and We could dance and... Since you're a Baptist, did you dance?

00:57:39.680 - 00:57:54.360

Anybody listening? A little bit. I danced some. Where did the boys come from that would attend this club?

00:57:54.760 - 00:58:26.600

Well I guess most of them were local boys. I don't know, there was a group, well there was an air base not far from Big Springs, and I'm sure some of them came from there. While you were at Sweetwater, did some of the upperclassmen graduate?

00:58:26.800 - 00:58:47.180

Tell me about graduation. Yeah, they graduated and we all marched. I guess every one of the classes marched. I know it was thrilling to see them graduate, the upperclassmen.

00:58:49.660 - 00:59:07.880

And of course we wondered where they were going, where they would be stationed. While you were there and some of the classes had graduated, did you know what they were doing? I think a couple came back to the air base one time and was saying what they were doing

00:59:07.940 - 00:59:28.900

in California. What did you fly during your advanced training? In the UC-78, were you flying with an instructor each time, or were you flying with another WASP?

00:59:29.140 - 00:59:55.580

Well, sometimes, first it was an instructor and two, and then later we flew with another WASP. During your instrument training, how did you enjoy that particular phase? Buckner: Well, that was all right.

00:59:55.940 - 01:00:21.680

Really I didn't fly too much instruments in Sweetwater, but I did go to instrument school later at St. Joe, Missouri. I liked it, it was kind of fun to stay on the beam. When graduation time came near, what were your expectations?

01:00:23.240 - 01:00:42.920

I just wanted to graduate, I guess. I wanted to breathe a sigh of relief that I didn't wash out. Can you walk us through your graduation? Well I was one of the shorter ones than I was on the end, so our graduation was one

01:00:42.980 - 01:01:00.080

of the first that got any publicity at all. So I believe Path A News and there was another news group that took pictures. And as I say, since I was one of the shorter ones, I was on the end and they took pictures of me.

01:01:01.380 - 01:01:25.620

And later I saw some of these in movie theaters when they'd show Pathé News. And I think they say the Wasp used to have some of them that showed some of the first girls being graduated. Tell me about any top brass that came to your graduation.

01:01:26.580 - 01:01:45.340

Well the one that pinned my wings on me was General Arnold. No he was head of the South… Yonk? Yonk.

01:01:46.820 - 01:01:58.860

I believe it was Yonk. Was head of the Southeastern Air Force. And was Jacqueline Cochran there? Jacklin Cochran was there.

01:01:59.010 - 01:02:17.840

In fact, I have a picture of Jacklin watching as the General pinned my wings on me. He had a little trouble since we didn't have a uniform and we only had these flimsy blouses so he had a little trouble getting my wings pinned off. But anyway, I graduated.

01:02:18.920 - 01:02:37.140

Could you tell me about your wings? Well, yes, they were sort of like the regular Air Force, except the shield is different. It has a 43-4 on it. I can't remember what else.

01:02:40.400 - 01:02:52.800

But these are wings that Jacqueline Cochran gave us. I think later on they changed wings to a regular WASP ring. So I was really proud of these. Do you know who paid for those wings?

01:02:52.990 - 01:03:17.020

I think she did, but I'm not sure. I know she sent a tiny little wasp, tiny, tiny little wasp wings to each of us. And I don't dare wear it because it's so small it would get lost easy. But I'm just as proud of those as I am of the big wings.

01:03:19.180 - 01:03:30.860

I know she paid for those. So when you graduated what did your orders say? Long Beach. I had asked for Long Beach and I got Long Beach.

01:03:32.000 - 01:03:51.200

So then how did you get to Long Beach? Goodness I may still be on my way. I can't think how I got there. Did you have any leave time?

01:03:51.940 - 01:04:06.600

Yes, we did have some leave time. And what did you spend that time doing? I went to see my folks in Bakersfield. And can you remember how you felt when you walked in and your folks saw you with your

01:04:06.680 - 01:04:23.480

wings? Well, I think if I remember right, my father kind of ignored it. My mother was really proud. I think my father thought women had no business flying.

01:04:24.320 - 01:04:36.140

I wanted to ask you about your uniform when you graduated. What did you wear? Did you have uniforms? No, we had just tan pants and a white blouse and an overseas cap.

01:04:38.940 - 01:04:59.800

So when you finished your leave time at Bakersfield, then what happened? Well then I went to Long Beach, reported for duty. Okay, to whom did you report? Well, B.J. Erickson was my CO, WASCO, so I reported to her.

01:05:03.900 - 01:05:26.560

And tell me then what happened. They gave us a room at a barracks there, and I was on the top floor to the first one on the right. Did you have a roommate?

01:05:27.320 - 01:05:45.680

No, I had a single room. We all had single rooms. Tell me about the first mission you flew at Long Beach. Well, I was delivering a BT trainer to Enid, Oklahoma.

01:05:48.040 - 01:06:13.300

And of course we had rules that we had to live up to as far as flying was concerned. You had to fly, I believe, 500 feet below a cloud. And the first thing I ran into was—well, I guess this wasn't the first one. It was the first one I went alone because the first trip you made, you made with somebody

01:06:13.380 - 01:06:35.520

else. But the first trip that I made by myself, I got close to Midland, Texas, and goodness, the blackest cloud you've ever seen was on the horizon. I knew I couldn't go all the way into wherever I was supposed to go to land.

01:06:37.920 - 01:06:51.400

But we had different places that we could call in. So I had called in and asked for the weather. Well they said it's clear and no problem whatsoever. I wasn't about to go get in that dark cloud.

01:06:52.720 - 01:07:15.580

So by then people were calling this place from all around. There must have been fifty airplanes in the sky around there. Nobody wanted to go through the clouds. Anyway, finally someone, we had a code that we had weather in, but you could ask to finally

01:07:15.640 - 01:07:33.760

get the right directions. So someone was smart enough to say, "Forget the code, go outside and look to see what we're supposed to do." So whoever it was, it was this tiny little airport, came inside and said, "Well, you

01:07:33.700 - 01:07:52.740

You need to get on the ground as soon as you can. So when we landed, everybody, the wind change was happening so rapidly that you couldn't tell which way to fly, which way to land. So everybody was landing one way or another way.

01:07:53.220 - 01:08:19.300

I don't know how we missed because people would be going downwind, upwind, crosswind, and everything else. But we did get on the ground and we had to spend the night at this tiny little airport. And in fact, the hotel where we stayed had been for oil men and it only had screen doors

01:08:19.380 - 01:08:39.180

on the doors. And, of course, it had an outhouse, nothing else. But there was a place to eat, so we spent the night there. We had to make our own beds up, too, and spent the night there.

01:08:41.640 - 01:09:00.040

Next morning, ate breakfast there and flew the rest of the way. Were these all WASPs flying? No, most of them were in the ATC, Air Transport Command. Most of them were delivering planes, but there were a lot of men and women, some girls, too.

01:09:02.790 - 01:09:18.760

So when you finally landed and delivered your airplane, then what did you do? Well then we turned around and went back to Long Beach. Did you have your own parachute? Yes, we had to carry these parachutes everywhere.

01:09:19.320 - 01:09:41.780

I think my arms are long just from carrying parachutes and a V-4 bag and anything else you needed. Do you know ordinarily how would you get back to your home base? Usually we'd go into Oklahoma City and get a regular airplane, commercial airline and

01:09:41.860 - 01:10:01.500

take it back in. When you would board these commercial airlines, who were most of the passengers on those airlines? Well, just about all of them were Air Force. There were civilians otherwise, but most of them were.

01:10:02.220 - 01:10:18.000

There were some women, some men, but we had number one priority, so a lot of times we'd go and we'd get to fly back where some civilian may have been waiting for all day and didn't get to go. Kelly: Okay.

01:10:18.000 - 01:10:25.940

But there were a lot of uniformed people on there? Ruebens: Yeah, a lot of them. Kelly: Awesome. And then when you would get back to Long Beach, what would you do?

01:10:27.190 - 01:10:51.720

Ruebens: Well, we'd report to duty and then sometimes we'd have orders cut out for us before we even landed. But one of the bad things about getting back to the base, we had to land on the other side of Los Angeles, and we'd have to take a trolley all the way to Long Beach.

01:10:51.800 - 01:11:05.720

And sometimes after you'd flown all day and flown part of the night, you were so tired. It was kind of bad. Uncomfortable. How were you treated by the male pilots?

01:11:06.280 - 01:11:31.220

Well on the base we were treated fine. I really only had one time that one of the men got a little upset. I had, I took, you know there are lemon airplanes just like there are lemon cars and I had to get a lemon one time.

01:11:34.020 - 01:11:56.720

The first thing that happened to me on the plane, I believe I was going to Enid again, and the radio went out. It just was a puff of smoke and it was down at my feet and I wasn't too happy about that. So when I got into Tucson, I couldn't call in.

01:11:56.720 - 01:12:17.060

I had to buzz the tower and they gave me a green light. So I landed and reported my problem and they fixed that. Well, the next day I took off in the plane and I happened to look down at my feet because you could see all the way to the outside of the plane down below.

01:12:18.800 - 01:12:35.760

There was oil all over the bottom of the plane. Well, I knew there was only one place it was coming from, it was from an engine. So I turned around and went back to Tucson. I was so afraid I wasn't going to make it.

01:12:37.220 - 01:12:47.980

But anyway, I landed. When I got there, this young man came up to my plane. I was still in. He said, "Are you a woman?"

01:12:48.100 - 01:13:01.080

And I said, "Yes." And I said, "I've got an oil problem." And he said, "Lady, you find somebody else to fix your plane." So I did.

01:13:01.380 - 01:13:13.920

I guess I could have reported him, but it seemed like I thought maybe it had been a bad day for him, I don't know. Somebody else fixed it. But that's the only time I ever really had anybody say anything to me.

01:13:15.920 - 01:13:32.980

Most of the planes that you were delivering, what was the delivery for? What were the airplanes for? Well, different things. Now I flew co-pilot on B-17s.

01:13:33.640 - 01:13:55.560

We did get to check out in an awful lot of planes that had gone to Long Beach. And B-24. Then later after pursuit training, they had pursuits. I guess my favorite plane of all was a C-47.

01:13:56.660 - 01:14:11.180

I think it would just keep on going regardless. Kelly: When you flew Coppola in the B-17, was that for a delivery or what were you doing? Ruebens: Yes, it was a delivery. Kelly: Okay.

01:14:11.540 - 01:14:34.360

Was it for an embarkation or was it— Ruebens: Yes. Now we were—if I remember right, we picked it up in Las Vegas. Everybody flew a group over and then a group took several different 17s to—I can't

01:14:34.500 - 01:14:58.260

remember why we went such a roundabout way, but the weather was terrible and it was snowing most of the time. We just really had a terrible time. And the first night we went—well, I can't remember the base that first night, but we

01:14:58.340 - 01:15:21.460

did take off the next day to Big Springs or someplace in Colorado. We landed there and we had to wait a while because of the snow and then we finally got on into Denver. It was so late at night.

01:15:25.140 - 01:15:45.040

My room was the wedding room for people who were just married. I had to get out by, I believe, six o'clock in the morning because they had somebody coming in, but that was the only room they had left. But it was the prettiest hotel room I've ever been in.

01:15:45.040 - 01:16:18.620

It had black marble bathroom fixtures, and it was a step-down tub, and it was really a beautiful thing. But I did hate to get out early in the morning, that early anyway. But we took it on to Walla Walla, Washington, and then on into someplace on the coast and

01:16:18.660 - 01:16:36.800

left it. It was going overseas. And then we flew commercial back to Long Beach. What was the most interesting flight you ever made?

01:16:43.100 - 01:17:15.540

Well, I guess it was interesting. I had, there were five or six of us had orders to pick up a little L-5 at a nearby air base. Somebody flew us over there and we were to take them to Washington. So we got into Redding, California, and the weather was so bad we couldn't take off.

01:17:16.240 - 01:17:36.060

In fact, we were weathered in almost a month there. And that was a fighter squadron base. Well needless to say, these men are all getting ready to go overseas. They had a party every night, so it wasn't too bad being weathered in there.

01:17:43.800 - 01:18:08.760

What were they going to use these L-5s for? Well, I expect they were to be sent overseas to be observation planes. And another thing that happened on this trip while I was at Reading, we ran out of money. We didn't know we were going to be there so long, so some of the girls wrote checks.

01:18:10.600 - 01:18:32.680

And of course help for the banks were terrible. Well, anyway, some of the—we stayed at a hotel in Redding. And one morning one of the girls came in and she was frightened to death because the police had been there looking up for some of them who had given bad checks.

01:18:34.040 - 01:18:54.880

They hadn't given bad checks at all, they just had—the help was so poor that they had made a mistake at the bank. Anyway, that was one of the things that happened. Another thing was that, of course, we ran out of clothes to wear, but at that time we

01:18:54.920 - 01:19:16.920

were wearing the same thing that the men wore. I remember one girl was saying, walking in front of me in downtown Reddings, "Well, I would certainly never wear my husband's clothes to work." So I think she felt like the uniform I had on was somebody else's.

01:19:20.070 - 01:19:34.000

She did not know who we were. I was going to ask you, on some of these flights, how did the civilians treat you? Did they know who you were? No, most civilians didn't know.

01:19:34.120 - 01:20:01.280

You had to tell them. They probably promptly forgot. What was the most frightening flight that you were ever on? On our way to Brownsville, Texas from Long Beach to go to pursuit training, we ran through

01:20:01.400 - 01:20:28.680

a Texas storm. And of course we were in a B-17 with bucket seats and it started hailing. And if you've ever been in a B-17 with hail pounding down on it with no, the only thing was just the outside shell, it gets pretty frightening.

01:20:29.940 - 01:20:44.640

I guess that must have been one of the most, I really never had too many things happen to me. Interviewer - While you were at Long Beach, were any of the girls injured or killed that you knew about?

01:20:44.960 - 01:20:58.180

Yeah, some of them, there were some. Now, Evelyn, I can't think of her last name that was killed. She was from another base, but-- - Sharp?

01:20:58.760 - 01:21:13.680

- Yeah, Evelyn Sharp. But it was while I was at Long Beach that she was killed. She wasn't killed at Long Beach, but it was there. But I knew Evelyn, and I knew what a good flyer she was, and that kind of made me stop

01:21:13.680 - 01:21:38.860

and think a little bit if something could happen to Evelyn, it could certainly happen to anybody. Tell me about getting orders to go to pursuit training, and how did you feel about that? Well, as I say, the C-47 twin engine was my favorite plane.

01:21:39.760 - 01:22:00.020

So the pursuit wasn't, but yet if I knew if I had to fly, deliver planes, I needed to take pursuit. I think it was just another place that we had to go to take. I was kind of one of these people that if the order said something, you did it.

01:22:04.100 - 01:22:17.920

And didn't think whether you liked it or not, you just did it. So, where were you sent? To Brownsville, Texas. What was your training like?

01:22:19.100 - 01:22:48.980

Well, it was kind of like we had ground school, we had Army people who told us about the planes, kind they were, what to expect, how to fly them, how not to fly them. And then we'd fly in the afternoon or morning. Was it only female pilots?

01:22:49.160 - 01:23:23.200

No, it was a mixed group. What kind of airplanes were these? He was a P-40, P-63, P-40, P-39, P-63, P-50. Golly, what's the name of it?

01:23:23.200 - 01:23:32.820

It's my favorite. No, never flew the P-51. But you learned it. Oh, okay.

01:23:34.060 - 01:23:45.820

Okay. We can take a break and we can fix it. And you were telling me about the airplanes that you checked out in. I want to ask you, in all of those airplanes,

01:23:46.520 - 01:24:01.440

were there two seats so that you could have an instructor that instructed you, Or did you get instructions on the ground and then just take it by yourself? We got instruction on the ground. They were always, when you soloed, you were alone.

01:24:01.900 - 01:24:13.120

Alone. Tell me about one particular airplane where you had to pull the gear up manually. Oh, that was at Liberty Field. That was the A-24.

01:24:13.640 - 01:24:38.940

Okay, tell me about that. Well, I was just explaining when I was checking out and I became familiar with the cockpit, but I really hadn't discovered how far I had to bend over to pick up the wheels. So my husband teases me now because we had a little balcony that you could go and watch

01:24:39.000 - 01:24:54.620

whoever was flying. He said the airplane would bob, but I know it did because when I started to pick up the wheels I had to bend so far over it pushed the airplane forward, but it did not get the wheels up.

01:24:55.600 - 01:25:16.200

The trees were pretty close by the time I got there, but I did not hit them. How long were you in training, pursuit training? I think we were there, I don't know, but I expect it was probably close to a month maybe.

01:25:17.200 - 01:25:33.900

And when you went there, were you expecting to stay there permanently or was it just a Oh no, it was strictly training. Okay. How did the other male pilots who were in training at the same time, how did they feel

01:25:34.000 - 01:25:44.400

about training with female pilots? As far as I know, they treated us just the same. Kelly: Who were your instructors there? McMillan: I don't know who they were.

01:25:44.850 - 01:25:55.920

Kelly: They were Air Force? McMillan: They were Air Force instructors. Kelly: Do you remember how many different pursuit-type aircraft you checked out? McMillan: We had four to be checked out in there.

01:25:56.620 - 01:26:09.160

I think I mentioned that earlier. Kelly: Then when you finished training, where were you sent? McMillan: We went back to Long Beach. Stayed there a while, I'm not sure how long.

01:26:09.940 - 01:26:38.500

How many girls went with you to pursuit training? Oh goodness, I don't know, twelve maybe or so. After you got back to Long Beach, then did your missions change? Well I just flew some different planes, but it was beginning to close down then.

01:26:38.530 - 01:27:03.140

I mean they had stopped I believe making the BT-13, which is one of the main ones that we delivered. Not the main one, but anyway we had a lot of hours there. When they stopped using those, then I was transferred to Liberty Fields, Georgia.

01:27:03.450 - 01:27:26.100

Kelly: While you were doing missions and in pursuits, do you remember any special mission in a pursuit that might have been interesting or different? McMillan: Well, I had a little incident happen to me. Of course, these planes that we flew, we called them war weary because they were so old.

01:27:28.940 - 01:27:52.860

I was out doing S-turns, just practicing, and I noticed my oil pressure was down. I looked a little bit later and the whole thing had turned red. I knew I had to get in real quick. You had to go so far back to get to land that you could, if you had a problem, call in and

01:27:52.940 - 01:28:10.940

get permission to land on a dual runway that the civilians used. They were side by side. So I came in on that. You feel like you shouldn't call in for a problem, but if it was too far back you might

01:28:10.920 - 01:28:27.240

be in the flight line for fifteen or twenty minutes and I knew I had to get on the ground. So. Were you met by the fire truck? I was met by the fire truck and boy was I happy to see him, but it didn't need him.

01:28:28.540 - 01:28:38.320

Did they tell you later what had happened that had caused all the after- No, I don't know. They, probably the same thing that must have happened a dozen times. It just needed.

01:28:39.760 - 01:28:51.080

What was that particular airplane? Do you remember? Vicky Reddick That was P-47. I wanted to ask you about the Army air bases along the coast of California.

01:28:52.500 - 01:29:20.660

Were they different from air bases inside the continental United States farther inland? Did they camouflage those in some way? Well, all of them were painted in the old army kind of colors. I don't know, there wasn't too much training except at, say, Long Beach.

01:29:23.090 - 01:29:45.760

I don't know whether it was different or not. Once you got orders to be transferred to Liberty, do you know why they transferred you? Well, once upon a time, to fly tow targets, you had to be larger than usual than the average person. I think the first group of girls were all the biggest ones in the group.

01:29:46.660 - 01:29:57.920

But they changed it, so it didn't matter how tall I was. Did you request that, or did they just... No, they just sent me. In fact, as a matter of fact, the only thing I knew about Georgia was chain gangs that

01:29:57.960 - 01:30:15.500

I had seen in the Sunday Supplement. So I did not know what to expect. But when I arrived there, I had my eyes open fast. There were three of us that were being transferred there.

01:30:16.320 - 01:30:36.440

Nobody knew we were coming at Liberty Field, and the plane stopped at a little place that It was just barely, it wasn't open at all. It was dark as it could be, not a light anywhere. Of course we didn't know how far it was to the air where we were to be stationed.

01:30:37.420 - 01:30:54.720

It just so happened that somebody came in a jeep looking for somebody else, so we got a ride in. Anyway, they took us to the airfield and of course it was I think midnight or later. Nobody was expecting us.

01:30:55.280 - 01:31:14.280

We had to wake somebody up to find a place to sleep. Georgia and especially Liberty Field was so damp, everything mildewed. And if you've ever slept on a bed that's mildewed, you know what it was like. It was terrible.

01:31:15.640 - 01:31:31.960

So I got real tickled at my friend, one of them especially. I was ready to cry because, boy, it was something else. A little bit, I heard her start sniffing. So when I heard her cry, I slowly died.

01:31:34.500 - 01:31:48.020

We didn't like it at all. Were you crying because you had to leave Long Beach? No, it was just, I guess I think it was because we had to wake up everybody to find a place to sleep and they didn't know we were coming.

01:31:50.500 - 01:32:03.460

It was just kind of, we felt lost I guess, but we really learned to love it out there. Did you fly in one airplane? Did somebody drop you off or did you fly in? No, they flew us.

01:32:03.600 - 01:32:30.140

We took commercial plane to South Carolina, I believe, and took the train then there. I don't know why that's the way we went, but that's the way we were set up to go. To whom did you report there? To the officer of the day, I guess, the next morning.

01:32:30.590 - 01:32:39.620

Were there other WASPs already there? Yes, there were some there. Where did you live? We lived on the base in barracks.

01:32:41.680 - 01:33:01.420

Could you tell us about the missions that you flew at Liberty? Well, most of the ones that I flew were, we would drop, cut up tinfoil, we'd go so high and drop it and then go back and forth people on the airbase was supposed to track us to see.

01:33:04.260 - 01:33:11.560

What were you flying? A-24. And you would go back and forth through the ten-fold? Yeah.

01:33:12.860 - 01:33:30.080

They were to pick up, because when you were flying in a plane and you couldn't tell what was real and what was not real. And were they tracking you with cameras or with what? Radar, I think.

01:33:32.640 - 01:33:49.840

And what were they training to be? Were they training for combat? Most of the tow targets were training for combat. Where would you get this tinfoil that you dropped?

01:33:51.520 - 01:34:01.340

They just gave it to us from the office. Kelly: Were you flying these missions by yourself or did you have a co-pilot? Beall: Yes, by myself. Yeah, well, you would have to for one thing.

01:34:02.340 - 01:34:11.700

It was a solo plane. You did not have anyone else with you. Kelly: And how would you get rid of that tinfoil? Did you have it in the front cockpit with you?

01:34:12.240 - 01:34:27.200

How did that work? Beall: It seems to me like we—I need to talk to some of the other girls who were there. I think we had to pull a little lever or something and it would drop out, but I'm really not sure.

01:34:28.260 - 01:34:43.580

Remember this was what, fifty-five years ago? How long would a mission last? Oh, I might stay up three hours or so. I got a lot of time, but it got to be kind of boring too.

01:34:47.000 - 01:35:11.680

I wonder in their tracking you, did the tinfoil obstruct their view of the airplane? I think it was just a blip on the radar and you had to decide what blip was what, the real one or just something else. I think it might have been hard to do, I don't know.

01:35:12.880 - 01:35:28.980

But I do know this, after I became a reading teacher and I thought about some of these little young fellows, I know very well couldn't read too well and that's the way they got their information. I often wondered how close I was to something that might have happened that didn't.

01:35:30.680 - 01:35:50.460

Did you ever have any unusual experiences at Liberty? No, I can't think of any. How long did you stay at that airbase? Well it might have been six months or so.

01:35:53.580 - 01:36:16.140

I'm not sure, five months, six months. Of all the things you did in the WASC, what did you enjoy the most? Delivering planes from Long Beach. the time you were in training and as a WASP, was there ever a time that you got sick?

01:36:16.680 - 01:36:34.800

If so, how were you treated? Rutherford: No, I don't think I ever got sick. Maybe bad cold or so, but we had doctors on the post, but I never really needed it. Kelly: Of all the airplanes you flew, which one did you love the most?

01:36:34.800 - 01:36:43.200

Rutherford: C-47. And why did you like that one so much? Do you know? Well, it was just kind of comfortable, I guess.

01:36:44.760 - 01:36:58.760

And I had a lot of faith in it. Were you at liberty then when the WASPs were disbanded? Yes. Tell me about the first time you learned that the WASPs might be disbanded and how

01:36:58.860 - 01:37:18.220

you felt about it. Well, I was pretty sad. I started thinking immediately of something else that I might use my flying for. This friend of mine and I decided we'd apply to a South American company that we heard

01:37:18.300 - 01:37:32.480

were hiring instructors. So we wrote to see if we could get a job there. They wrote back and said, "Yes, if we could speak Spanish." So we didn't think that we were fluent enough to speak Spanish.

01:37:32.660 - 01:37:49.460

We could have taken, I guess, but we didn't. But anyway, I was sorry to see us deactivated. What do you think the WASP had accomplished during that two-year period? Oh, I think they definitely showed that women could fly as well as men.

01:37:52.360 - 01:38:19.400

But as far as the war effort, what do you think the WASP added? Well for one thing, it released a lot of male pilots to go to combat that would be flying the delivering planes as we did, so we did do that much. I think any time we were stationed at any of the posts, most of the commanders would

01:38:19.500 - 01:38:37.680

say that we fulfilled our duties as far as they were concerned. So when we first went in, we were to take the place of the men so they could be released for combat. So we did that.

01:38:39.420 - 01:39:07.960

When you were disbanded at Liberty, what did you do? Well, for one thing I went down to Miami to visit another WASP who lived there. Then Jim and I got married right after that. After that I was just a, we couldn't fly so I was just a housewife.

01:39:08.480 - 01:39:25.740

Can we back up? One thing I forgot to ask you about is when did you receive your official WASP uniform? Do you remember that and how did you feel about that uniform? Well, we were really pleased.

01:39:25.900 - 01:39:41.520

I remember we could choose what we wanted to buy. I thought they were really nice uniforms. Where did you get your uniform? Buckner: It was ordered from someplace.

01:39:44.060 - 01:39:59.720

Kelly: And now let's find out about Jim. When did you meet Jim? Buckner: Well, he was stationed at Liberty Field also. Kelly: And could I ask you what qualities you saw in Jim that attracted you to him?

01:40:04.400 - 01:40:22.960

He was a pilot for one thing. I don't think I would have wanted to marry anybody that wasn't a pilot at that time. He had all the qualities. I don't know what qualities I'm looking for, but he had them anyway.

01:40:24.780 - 01:40:39.600

Do you remember the first date? Tell me about the first date you had. Well we were all, there were several of us that kind of ran together and it was a restaurant that served steaks.

01:40:39.940 - 01:40:59.180

Of course at that time they were hard to get, most places. But this restaurant was, I think it was Midway, the name of it. You could go out when the war first began in order for them to take over their base there.

01:40:59.280 - 01:41:18.040

They turned the cattle loose that belonged to the people, so they just multiplied out in the swamp. So if you wanted to get some beef, all you did was go out in the swamp and shoot one. So that meant that this restaurant could serve steaks any time we wanted them.

01:41:18.200 - 01:41:33.980

So we all used to go down there and get a staple every so often. So that's the way I first remember seeing him. Kelly: Was it love at first sight? McMillan: Well, I suppose.

01:41:35.660 - 01:41:46.240

Maybe second or third. Kelly: At that time, was he dating someone else? McMillan: I don't know. I kind of think he might have been.

01:41:46.520 - 01:42:05.040

I think he had a girl back home. EC: And then when you left Liberty, did you keep corresponding with him? RB: No, we married then right after that, before he had to go to San Francisco to be sent overseas.

01:42:07.860 - 01:42:25.700

And we had gotten married. His family came and we had an apartment in Savannah. When did you get married? Thirteenth of January and we were deactivated in December.

01:42:28.340 - 01:42:44.400

Had you gone home right after deactivation to visit or did you stay at Liberty? I tried to think of that the other night and I think I went home for a short while while we could still catch a ride on the plane. But I may be mistaken.

01:42:44.680 - 01:42:54.540

But anyway, I did go down to Miami to visit this friend. Okay, was that before you got married? Yeah. Okay, and then you came back to Liberty.

01:42:54.670 - 01:42:58.800

Were you married at Liberty? Yes. Where? Hindsville, Georgia.

01:42:59.000 - 01:43:13.600

It's right on the outskirts of the field. Were you married in a church? Yeah, a little Presbyterian church, a beautiful little church. It really was way back in the 1800s.

01:43:13.700 - 01:43:31.860

It was still that where the slaves could go to church upstairs. It was just a real pretty church. His mother and two sisters came for the wedding. Where were they from?

01:43:32.580 - 01:43:45.300

They were from Corinth, Mississippi. Have you been back to that church since? Yes. Yes, on our fiftieth wedding anniversary, Jim took me back then and we went to the church.

01:43:46.620 - 01:44:03.340

We went to the base. It was, a lot of the buildings were still there, but there was only one plane on the tarmac. It used to be, of course, when I was there, fifty or sixty all the time, so it was pretty

01:44:03.460 - 01:44:12.980

different. Was the little church the same? Yes, the church had been redone and it was just a lovely little church. I took a lot of pictures of it.

01:44:13.190 - 01:44:39.900

Kelly: Oh, that's great. Then after you were married in January, where did you live? He was going overseas, so I went to his sister in Cleveland, Tennessee. And then he came back home and found out that he wasn't going overseas after all.

01:44:41.260 - 01:44:57.940

So then he got a job on a newspaper in Cleveland, so we lived there for a while. What was he doing at the newspaper? Well, wait a minute first somewhere along here He went back and finished school

01:45:01.740 - 01:45:24.280

Before he went to work at Cleveland and our daughter was born When we we went back to Corinth where his folks were And well, he was in school. Our daughter was oldest daughter was born When did your mother and dad get to meet him?

01:45:25.760 - 01:45:45.620

They came one time when we were living in Corinth. And your daughter was born where? She was born in Corinth. As your daughter was growing up, then did you have another child?

01:45:46.420 - 01:46:00.660

while we were in Cleveland I had a son and this is when Jim was working on a newspaper. And. When Jim went back to school where did he go? He went to Ole Miss.

01:46:01.040 - 01:46:16.080

Ole Miss. And got his degree in what? I think it was journalism and then he had a minor in Civil War History. Then when he came back to Cleveland was he working on a newspaper?

01:46:16.340 - 01:46:31.240

And how did you spend your time with those two young children? Well, taking care of them mostly. And as they were coming up through school, what did you, what were you involved with with their actions?

01:46:31.260 - 01:46:57.680

Well, now, we moved before they got to school age. We moved to Laurel, Mississippi, which is just north of here. Can I stop? I went out with a boy who was a friend of Marty Arjay, who was Norma Shearer's husband.

01:47:00.320 - 01:47:22.900

She wanted her car, the car was in Phoenix, and she wanted it back in California. So they asked Mac if he would drive it back, so I went with him. So it was a convertible, just a beautiful car. All I could think about was when I was riding it, it just sank this Blomstone Armistair.

01:47:23.000 - 01:47:37.600

Maybe you don't know who that is. Nancy probably doesn't. Nancy knows old movie stars better than I do. When I asked you what you did when you were at Phoenix, you didn't tell me that story.

01:47:37.660 - 01:47:47.680

Well, I know it. That's what I keep thinking. I got things like that, little things I keep saying, nothing I don't remember, don't remember that either.

01:47:48.520 - 01:48:05.160

And then of course, these things pop out. We all do that same thing. Okay, I think we're at Cleveland, right? And we have two children.

01:48:06.860 - 01:48:24.080

And I think what I asked was, what activities were you involved with with your children as they were growing up? Redmond. Well, I can't think of any specific activities.

01:48:24.180 - 01:48:48.720

I know Jim's sister lived there in Cleveland, and she would have the children come over to her house quite often. And I learned, first learned how to play bridge in Cleveland. I had some really good neighbors with children that we did a lot of just talking, drinking

01:48:49.040 - 01:49:00.160

coffee and of course my church. I was always involved in my church. How about scouting? Were you involved?

01:49:00.220 - 01:49:12.560

No, not yet. I did become a scout leader later when we were in Laurel. Did your children start school then in Cleveland? No, no.

01:49:13.060 - 01:49:25.660

Fact of the matter, let's see, they were not school age yet when we moved to Laurel. Jim got a job with the newspaper in Laurel. What did he do? Was he a reporter?

01:49:26.860 - 01:49:55.740

An advertising manager. And at Laurel then, what did you spend your time doing? Well, one thing I was, I worked a little bit of, once in a while I worked at the, oh, place where you get a job, what's the name of it?

01:49:59.800 - 01:50:16.780

office on the part time. Then I also had a small kind of like a welcome wagon thing of my own that I set up, set up with them. And I got involved with the young girl who'd had polio while we were there.

01:50:17.980 - 01:50:39.760

And I helped her get started in an answering business for an oil company and doctors. So I was willing. I was pleased to do that. She was—she had a lovely voice, but she was so badly crippled she couldn't do anything

01:50:39.860 - 01:50:54.060

else. But she could answer the phone and could talk. She was—she was very good at it. And I was really involved in a lot of things with my church and Laurel, and that's where

01:50:54.160 - 01:51:10.460

my children started school in. While you were at Laurel and your children were involved with things, were they involved, say with mission trips for the church? Did they participate in that kind of thing?

01:51:10.590 - 01:51:19.700

No, not there. No, they did later here in Hattiesburg. And then from Laurel, where did you go? To Hattiesburg, yeah.

01:51:21.200 - 01:51:36.240

Laurel is just about thirty miles north of here. When you came to Hattiesburg, what was Jim doing? He was working on a newspaper. This is when I went back to school and got my degree.

01:51:36.500 - 01:51:49.600

And why did you go back to school? Well I felt like I just had to do something. Being a homemaker is one thing, but you need something else too, or at least I thought I did.

01:51:50.220 - 01:52:07.840

And I wanted to teach school. Tell me about competing or being associated with the younger college students. How did you feel or how did they feel about having you? I don't know how they felt about me, but I really didn't pay that much attention to.

01:52:08.600 - 01:52:25.880

In fact, I've still got some really good friends that I made that were so much younger than I was in college. Could I ask you, while you were in college, did you ever let any of those college students know what you had done before you married?

01:52:25.880 - 01:52:46.040

I can't think of any time I did that. And in college then, what were you majoring in? My degree was in reading, the psychology of reading, and education. What did you hope to do with that degree?

01:52:49.560 - 01:53:14.080

Well when I first started into reading I was going to teach reading in the classroom. I did do that one year I believe, but after that I finished up my master's degree and started testing children after that. Tell me about how you would test these children and why you would test these children.

01:53:14.180 - 01:53:45.440

Well most of them were having problems in reading in school and we really needed to know why. Was it background or was it because they couldn't see or was it vision or whatever it was. So I tested the children to see what level they were functioning on and how well we could

01:53:45.480 - 01:54:04.800

expect them to do in the future. What ages were these students? Well, first grade through eighth. And did there come one time when several of you in different fields tested all at the

01:54:05.000 - 01:54:31.200

same time? Yes, that was later when I went down to Louisiana to work. I couldn't, of course, I went to Frenny's School and I taught there at a black, sort of like a junior college for about five years and then I went to New Orleans, or I went

01:54:31.240 - 01:54:43.060

to Hammond, Louisiana. When you were teaching apprentice, what were you teaching? Reading? Yeah, I started reading, teaching reading, and I taught English some.

01:54:44.800 - 01:55:08.440

And then I wrote a grant to help the students develop ways to work with Head Start as an associate teacher. So we had a degree that was an associate teaching degree. By the time they left there, it was a good program.

01:55:09.210 - 01:55:31.360

It was the first time white students came to college there. So then it was a racially mixed college? Well, there weren't too many whites, but they did go to my program. And then why did you decide to go teach at another, to leave and teach someplace else?

01:55:36.980 - 01:56:01.640

I think the grant ran out for one thing, and Louisiana paid so much more than Mississippi did at that time that I was interested in that. Can I ask you what you feel you accomplished during that five years as far as helping students? Were they receptive?

01:56:02.380 - 01:56:28.020

Yeah, they were and so many of them surprised me so much. Some of these college students would test at a third grade level and yet they really did well in some of the courses that they took. That's hard to describe because they did a lot better than they were tested is supposed

01:56:28.120 - 01:56:51.900

to be able to do. I was going to ask you what they gave back to you. Well, I was always interested in what they were doing and some of these little girls were to me had such wrong ideas on how to conduct themselves.

01:56:53.140 - 01:57:08.240

I think I was instrumental in getting some of them to change their ways of thinking. Do you think that would be acceptable in today's college? I don't think it would. I don't think it would at all.

01:57:09.400 - 01:57:33.020

Perhaps it's right that it shouldn't be. Some of those children are still, well students I should say, are still working in the field and did right well for themselves, went on to finish and got a four-year degree. So I'm really proud of some of those students.

01:57:34.080 - 01:58:04.580

Let me pursue that just for a minute about whether or not children would be better off to be guided by someone in morals while they're going to school or whether it would be better not to guide them at all. How do you feel about teachers guiding children in moral values as teachers?

01:58:04.580 - 01:58:36.280

I think they could in ways that may be by the teacher themselves and their actions and activities and things rather than saying don't do this or don't do that. I think they need to be led, but I think they need to be properly led. I think that we have to be careful that we do not interfere with a child's own values

01:58:36.320 - 01:58:53.080

and parents that they get from their parents. I think it's kind of hard for a teacher to stay in the middle road. I think it's a good thing, all right, but then it depends on the teacher, I guess, or whether they meet my guidelines.

01:58:53.280 - 01:59:16.120

So that's the problem. Kelly: Okay, then you left and went down to New Orleans? Lowry: No, I went to Frankenton, Tennessee, and was—I mean, Frankenton, Louisiana, and became part of a team testing children.

01:59:18.100 - 01:59:41.380

It was called the Competent Authority Team, which sounds a little ridiculous, but anyway there were five of us on a team and we would take one child and thoroughly test them and see what they needed to be done so that they could function in a classroom. Did the school system back you up once you gave a report?

01:59:42.160 - 01:59:57.300

I never had any problem. They always were very responsive to it. In fact, they were seemingly grateful. Kelly: When you were doing this in Franklinton, were you commuting home or did you move?

01:59:57.450 - 02:00:02.520

Blank. No, I was commuting home. Kelly: And how old were your children at this time? Blank.

02:00:02.520 - 02:00:28.840

Well, they were high school or out of college, I'm not sure. They were old enough to take care of themselves. Kelly: When your children were in high school, what did you enjoy participating in? Lowry: Well, I was always a scout leader for one thing, for the girls.

02:00:32.700 - 02:00:50.380

Kelly: How about things like PTA? Were you involved? Lowry: Yeah, PTA, right, and with church-related activities. Tell me about the first time you went on a mission trip with your church.

02:00:51.160 - 02:01:16.060

Well, I went to Honduras with the medical dental team. It was church related, not particularly our church, but it was a religious activity. I was appalled when I saw how some of them lived and what poor circumstances they were under.

02:01:20.120 - 02:01:42.420

The group that I usually went with were always so good. In fact, one year my son, who is a dentist, went down. In fact, two different times when I went, two sons went down working in a dental group. I think we had a great deal to do with these people.

02:01:43.180 - 02:01:57.120

How long would these trips be? They would be maybe two weeks. And the doctors and those of you who assisted, what did you do once you got there? What was the purpose of the trip?

02:01:57.120 - 02:02:15.080

Well, different things. One time I went down, I was cooked, which I really didn't care for, but they needed me cooked, so I cooked. And then one time I worked with little babies.

02:02:15.850 - 02:02:31.820

They needed—the doctor needed to know how much they weighed. And of course you'd stand them on the scales and they would scream. They were so frightened. And finally what I did was I weighed the mother and then I gave the mother the baby and subtracted

02:02:31.880 - 02:02:49.760

and found out how much they weighed. So we got by that all right. And sometimes I just handed out medicine. But then at the same time we were doing all this, we talked about our church and things

02:02:49.840 - 02:03:02.580

of that sort. Kelly: And the doctors, you were all donating, volunteering your time. Were these underprivileged people in Nicaragua? McMillan: Well, they were underprivileged, I guess, but they probably weren't called

02:03:02.700 - 02:03:15.180

that. Little cities, little towns on their own. Did you go to other foreign countries? Yes, I did.

02:03:15.300 - 02:03:36.820

Now I went to Honduras four different times, and I went to Belize twice, and then I went to Peru one time and New Zealand one time. In fact, when I went to New Zealand, I stayed with the Maori natives, which I really liked that.

02:03:36.960 - 02:04:00.660

They were just great. Then I went to Josh, Nigeria, in Africa. I stayed there two months, so I got to know—I really liked going to work and meeting people so much more than just to go for fun.

02:04:02.020 - 02:04:18.440

But— When you went to Nigeria, how many of you were on that trip? Well, I was by myself to Nigeria. They needed someone to come and test children to find out if they had enough people to warrant

02:04:18.500 - 02:04:32.720

their test, hiring a special ed teacher. And who sponsored your trip for that? Well, I went on my own. You pay your own way.

02:04:33.580 - 02:04:49.420

They did provide a place to live, but I had to pay for my food while I was there. But I took a lot of it with me, and so that was no problem. And once you got there, did you have an interpreter or did they speak? No, they spoke English.

02:04:49.700 - 02:05:06.320

This was an English-speaking school. Most of them were missionary families' children. I did what I did, but you know, I've lost it. I can't find it.

02:05:06.320 - 02:05:19.040

I don't know whether one of the children absconded with it or what. Yeah, I'll find it eventually. But for a while I could go back and look at it and remember things that I'd forgotten all about.

02:05:20.190 - 02:05:46.160

Tell us about the missionary families that you met in Africa. Well, of course there were quite a few in Josh itself, but it was made up of thirteen different denominations. It wasn't just Baptists, they were Presbyterian and Methodist and all different kinds.

02:05:47.720 - 02:06:07.220

This was a boarding school so that some of the children came quite a ways from maybe South Africa. So some of them didn't get to see their parents for maybe almost a year. But it was really hard on parents for their children to leave them and go to this school.

02:06:08.600 - 02:06:31.180

But they had a wonderful place to stay. The people that were ahead of this little boarding, where they stayed at night after they left school, were just a great group. They had so many children and they treated them just like they were their own child.

02:06:32.780 - 02:06:49.720

But I could see one family brought me their child. They drove about ten hours to get to Josh for me to evaluate. It was their boy. They couldn't seem to do anything with him.

02:06:49.780 - 02:07:12.560

They'd probably call it educationally deficient in some way. Yet when I tested him, I was really surprised with all the children at this school. They tested as well as the kids did down in Louisiana or Mississippi. They had a great school to go to.

02:07:13.280 - 02:07:33.440

The big thing was that they just weren't with their parents. And I know this had an effect on the children and on the parents too. Kelly: So missionaries have more to give up than just giving of themselves? Reddick: That's right, they do.

02:07:34.140 - 02:07:52.680

I hadn't realized just how much it was. Kelly: Tell me about New Zealand. Did you go by boat? No, I flew into New Zealand and, as I say, I stayed with a Maori family.

02:07:58.920 - 02:08:18.440

New Zealand is not a particularly religious country. So many of these people had nothing. No church, didn't go to church. The fact that the town that I was in I think only had three churches and it was pretty

02:08:18.540 - 02:08:47.220

big and even they were not always filled. But I know when I landed in New Zealand where I was going to stay and the family met me, They had on nice clothes, good windbreakers, dressed as well as they could, but they were barefooted.

02:08:48.160 - 02:09:05.400

I was astonished. You wouldn't think that I'd be so naive to think that everybody needs shoes, but anyway, that was astonishing. That astonished me when I saw it.

02:09:06.040 - 02:09:26.160

But they were such a good group. We had studied Bible studies every day, every night, and they always served the nicest food. It was just a really lovely time to be there. We thoroughly enjoyed it.

02:09:27.330 - 02:09:47.360

Levy: Do all of them not wear shoes? As far as I know, some do and some don't, and I guess whatever is comfortable. It was just that for some reason seeing grown-up men barefoot, it was, I guess, kind of threw me out of my head.

02:09:47.540 - 02:10:11.640

Kelly: Did they wear ties? Well, they didn't that day, but they did have on London Fog jackets and were dressed well, and they had good jobs. And while I was there, they took me to see preschool that they were trying to teach children

02:10:11.740 - 02:10:40.380

there to speak the Maori language before it died out. So they had many things that was different than what we usually think of, but they had a nice classroom and they were really learning the language. I think when you go to different countries and you work with people, you see a much more

02:10:40.380 - 02:11:05.540

different way of doing things than you would if you were just visiting there as a tourist. Do you think the children of those countries have similar problems to the children of America? Oh I think so. I know they had drug problems in high school and really bad problems sometimes.

02:11:06.900 - 02:11:26.400

I think they have the same problems we do. Are there any stories that you can think of about any of your trips that you would like to tell us about? Well, I can't think of any.

02:11:27.200 - 02:11:46.200

I'm not sure. Did I say something about when I first landed in Nigeria? Well, the people that I was supposed to be visiting were supposed to meet me at this town where the plane landed, and they didn't.

02:11:47.300 - 02:12:00.540

And it was so dark. Here I was in a foreign country, and of course, thank goodness that most of them speak English. I was grateful for that, but I was a long ways from downtown where there was a place to stay.

02:12:01.800 - 02:12:23.640

So a Catholic nun was there to pick up her sister who took me downtown to where I could stay in a motel. But still I was all alone and had nobody I could contact to find out where I was supposed to go and what I was supposed to do.

02:12:25.140 - 02:12:40.160

And looking up in the telephone book, they had a telephone book all right, but it was over five years old and you didn't know who you were going to get when you tried to call somebody. It was difficult to find anybody.

02:12:40.940 - 02:13:04.240

And they'd already told me that I didn't dare take a bus or train to go anywhere. So I finally, one of the men at the motel who carried our luggage told me he'd help me find a place or a taxi to go to Josh where I wanted to go, which was about five hours away.

02:13:07.000 - 02:13:28.060

Which he did, and it was one time I was really praying, believe me, I wanted to go somewhere I knew somebody would take care of me. Anyway, within five minutes after I went out to this place that he took me to, I was in a taxi and on my way to Josh in a really nice car.

02:13:29.380 - 02:13:50.200

It was a man, his wife, and their baby, and a couple of college boys, and another family, and a baby. We went all the way to Josh. It was kind of hard to say how much things were going to cost you.

02:13:50.240 - 02:14:04.180

I know the luggage man made a deal with the band that was going to carry me there, which was fine, and I paid him. But he whispered and told me, "Don't pay it all to him. Just pay half of it.

02:14:04.260 - 02:14:17.940

When you get there, pay the rest." So I learned one lesson. Then when we got into Josh, going from Josh to the school cost me more, which was just Just about a couple of miles.

02:14:18.120 - 02:14:39.060

Cost me more than when I was going on this five-hour taxi trip. I couldn't say anything. He had my luggage, but he took me where I was supposed to go. It was almost time for school to be over with when I walked in and said, "Well, here I

02:14:39.700 - 02:14:53.680

am." Nobody knew why I was there or where I came from or whatever. Anyway, I think they dug up under some papers and found out that I was supposed to be testing children so it didn't take long to get all settled in.

02:15:03.200 - 02:15:25.560

They call me the first white woman to have gone by themselves from one town to another, especially in Josh. I can't think of the place where I landed, but it was a little bit bigger than Josh. Actually, the village must have been sixty thousand people in this village, but they

02:15:25.620 - 02:15:37.760

were all thatched huts. I had no idea that a village would be that large when I got there. I didn't teach those children. I taught the missionary children.

02:15:41.600 - 02:16:04.480

What was the phrase they said about you? Well, they said I was the first white woman to make that trip alone from wherever I landed to since the 1800s. From then on, when they referred to me as "that woman," they always said, "Well,

02:16:04.760 - 02:16:19.960

don't say anymore. know what you're talking about. I guess I really would have been scared if I had known all that. Kelly: When did you make your last trip, mission-type trip like that?

02:16:26.480 - 02:16:43.460

Beall: I guess it must have been '92. And since then, your children have left and married. What do you do with your time now? How do you spend your time?

02:16:45.600 - 02:17:04.140

Well for a while I was really interested in painting. And then of course I was always interested in my grandchildren. I may not have said this, but I did have four children. We had two boys and two girls.

02:17:05.050 - 02:17:24.220

Tell us about them. Well, the boys are both dentists. One wife was a dentist, so one daughter-in-law is a dentist. One of my girls is a park ranger for the National Park.

02:17:26.800 - 02:17:53.740

The other one works with the Georgia Labor Department in Atlanta. And could you tell us about your grandchildren? Well the girl that lives on the coast in Ocean Springs has one child who is eight. Then I have my oldest son has three children.

02:17:56.720 - 02:18:27.000

One is an architect, one is getting his degree in biology, and then one is the youngest of their group is going to finish her English major this year. And my youngest son has two children that are both—this is one lives in Huntsville, I mean Guntersville, but it goes to Huntsville to school, and they're both in school.

02:18:28.160 - 02:18:43.100

All of them are lovely children. I might like to add too that all my children are really involved in the church. That's great. I know that you made one special trip with a group of WASPs.

02:18:43.730 - 02:19:11.320

Do you want to tell us briefly about that trip? Now this was a trip to Russia and it was great to be with that number. I think the whole plane load was WASP and we flew there and we were going to meet the women there who flew during World War II and they were called "Night Witches."

02:19:11.320 - 02:19:32.960

They met us at the airport and gave us flowers and welcomed us. I promptly stepped off the curb and broke my ankle. So I didn't get around as much as some of the others, but for some reason I did other things that were just as important.

02:19:33.340 - 02:19:47.980

I really had a good time. I met some great women who flew during World War II. When I think of what we did and what they did, it was just so different because they actually flew combat.

02:19:51.020 - 02:20:15.500

In meeting those women, how were their personalities different than the Wasp personalities, or were they? I don't know how they were different. I think they were probably a great deal like the Wasp.

02:20:16.180 - 02:21:07.240

When I read some of their stories, I felt like I was reading about our own group. I had it really hard. Why do you think the Wasps were not given veteran status or recognized for so many years? Well, I think that when the men were coming back from being overseas, that they wanted

02:21:07.380 - 02:21:29.740

to fly some more. And I think they felt like that we were keeping them from flying. And I think it was a lot of politics sometimes. But anyway, I think that was a long time ago.

02:21:36.120 - 02:21:56.260

How did you participate in eventually the WASP being granted veteran status? Yes. Could you tell us what you did? Well, the only thing I did was just receive notification that we were now veterans.

02:21:57.410 - 02:22:28.040

We don't - of course my husband got all of his college training through the veterans. I would have loved to have had that. I think we have some things now, right now I take advantage of going to a Veterans for Medicine that I'm grateful for and of course when we die we get a

02:22:28.180 - 02:22:51.980

flag and burial so I guess that counts for something. Your generation has been called the greatest generation. Why do you think your generation is the greatest generation? Well, of course I can say there's no doubt about it, but I think we had so far to go.

02:22:52.080 - 02:23:10.080

We had so much further to go. Children get such a much better education now. So most of the people really had to work to get whatever status that they got and to do the things that they were told.

02:23:13.140 - 02:23:35.680

I think they had grown up stronger and had to deal with a harsher environment. And maybe that's what made them great. Maybe they had the opportunity and now they don't have that opportunity. When I read about some of the men and what they did, I think what a wonderful person

02:23:35.760 - 02:23:58.640

that they must have been to be able to do what they did. In order for another generation to be a greatest generation, how do you think this generation would have to change? Well, that's kind of hard to say.

02:24:02.060 - 02:24:23.580

I think some of them are already doing things when they work with children who need help and adults that need help. I think a lot of really good people are in this generation. They don't have an opportunity to go overseas and die for their country, but I think they

02:24:23.660 - 02:24:56.180

can do other things that is very important in helping them to develop their own personalities. In looking ahead, what do you think the legacy of the WASP will be? Well I hope that some of them may inspire some of the younger children to do things that they'd really like to do and maybe even fly.

02:25:01.720 - 02:25:18.240

What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? Well I really like Jacqueline Cochran. I know that some of the girls may not have thought a great deal of her, but I do know this, that if it hadn't been for her, I wouldn't be flying.

02:25:18.760 - 02:25:34.220

I wouldn't have flown. I can't think of anybody else who would have stepped in her place, and I think she really fought hard for us to get things done. I think in her way, she was a great lady.

02:25:37.040 - 02:25:53.740

What do you think your legacy will be? Well mine might be with my grandchildren I hope. But I'm hoping it's not just because I was a Wasp. Just because I'm their grandmother.

02:25:55.180 - 02:26:20.320

As you look back over your life and you've done so many wonderful things, what is the one thing you're most proud of? Well, I guess being a WASP. I think probably was one of the most things.

02:26:21.410 - 02:26:40.800

And why are you proud of being a WASP? When I think of individual WASPs, to me I always am grateful to know that I'm one of them. And I think they were just a great bunch of girls, women.

02:26:41.680 - 02:27:08.540

I think most of them wanted to do what they could for their country and I'd like to be identified with them. Edna, if you could talk to your grandchildren or your great-grandchildren, say something to them or children that you have never seen or will never see that will be watching you

02:27:09.020 - 02:27:42.080

tell your story, say 25 or 50 years from now, what would you like to say to those great-grandchildren or other children that might encourage them to reach beyond to achieve? Well, I know I need to say something profound now, but I can't think of anything. I would just hope that they would be able to be their own self and to do whatever they'd

02:27:42.080 - 02:28:11.740

really like to do and to always keep in mind that you don't have to say, "I can't do that," but you can if you really want to, just to be sure it's the right thing to do. But I can't think of anything else right now. You're a great inspiration and I thank you for doing that.

02:28:15.560 - 02:28:43.440

Nancy wants to know how important a role has God played in your life? Well, a very important role. I'd feel lost without knowing that He was my Heavenly Father. And now that I'm reaching the end of my life, I just wish that I had done more. I could have done more, and I should have done more.

02:28:48.200 - 02:29:15.260

But I think sometimes maybe there's not too late yet. I might be able to do something, but right now I don't know what. All I know is that I'm grateful that all four of my children are dependent on God and I hope my grandchildren will be the same.

02:29:19.820 - 02:29:39.840

He's certainly an important part of my life and I hope it will be the same for my children. Can I ask one question? This is just because I didn't understand when you said something about the flag went up to tell you what to wear. Can you tell me about that?

02:29:40.040 - 02:30:07.380

Yeah, there was a flag on our campus there that if it went up a certain way, I can't remember exactly what, but if it was one flag was for to wear your dress uniforms and one was for zoot suits and everything. One day we had an occasion where somebody forgot and put up two flags.

02:30:08.240 - 02:30:28.140

So we ran around and got anything. I wore high heels and jeans and a hat. In fact, they're pictured in some of the women's books that had been written showing how peculiar we looked under those circumstances, but it was all because there were more than one flag

02:30:28.180 - 02:30:36.760

went up. Was there like an inspection? You stood out and got inspected? Did you fall out or fall in or anything?

02:30:36.870 - 02:30:49.820

Yeah, we fell in. Okay, that was one thing I wanted to ask you. And then the other thing was that Jim had mentioned that you did help fight for WASP to get veteran status through the congressman here.

02:30:50.680 - 02:31:07.120

Yeah, sure. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Of course, everybody that could was trying to get someone to listen to him, and Sonny Montgomery was our House of Representatives, and he was one of the main ones.

02:31:08.020 - 02:31:24.140

So he came down to something for the men, and I called and asked him if I couldn't talk to him. And I know I'm slow-talking now, but he told me I had five minutes. I've never talked so fast in my life and I got so tickled at him.

02:31:25.160 - 02:31:36.660

He kept saying, "I didn't know that. I didn't know that either." "Well, I didn't know that." So anyway, when it was all over with, he bundled all the things up together and sent them to

02:31:36.760 - 02:31:59.300

me so I've got them all in a group, all the things that were said in the legislature and they finally gave us status. So I just did something and everybody else was doing something else. But as I say, I never talked so fast and so hard in all my life and I think I got what

02:31:59.340 - 02:32:21.280

I was saying across. Let me ask you, you and I both know that the history of the WASP is not in the history textbooks that your grandchildren and my grandchildren are studying. Why do you feel or do you feel that it's important for that history to be there?

02:32:22.300 - 02:32:45.540

Well, I definitely think it should be. I think there are books now that have a little bit about them, maybe not a great deal. I do know this, that there's a program, I can't remember what it is now, that's got You read the story and then you answer questions.

02:32:48.260 - 02:33:05.520

That's got WASP in there. So you read all about it and then you have to answer questions just like men or anything else and I was grateful to know that because so many of the children take this one particular program and I wish I could think of the name of it now.

02:33:08.760 - 02:33:17.840

So I guess it will gradually get in. Not unless you and I do something about it. Yeah, I suppose that's true. And that's what we're doing.

02:33:20.040 - 02:33:26.600

Okay. Okay? Okay. I know, I never told you about those flags, did I?

02:33:26.690 - 02:33:38.980

No, never about the flags. Well, yeah, when one color, I think, was red, then there's no flying. You see, the red flag up, and you know flying's called off. And a yellow one, I've forgotten, there was a yellow flag.

02:33:40.620 - 02:33:45.680

I can't remember what that is. I know, but I know. - The green flag meant that the boys are landing? - No, that came up.

02:33:46.290 - 02:33:50.580

(laughing) - Yeah. - That didn't happen, did it? Not during training.

02:33:50.760 - 02:33:58.500

- And I didn't ask her if there was any. - Yeah, I think we've warned her out. - Anything, yeah. - Down the road, Big Springs.

02:33:58.600 - 02:34:09.680

- Big Springs, never went over there. - Yeah, well, I went out with a young man who was in Big Springs there. - Yeah, I found out some of you upper classmen

02:34:09.780 - 02:34:29.840

went out with some of the instructors, too. Now I never did that. I had one that I might have, I thought he was so handsome I might have gone out with him, but I met his wife one day and she was so dowdy and had lost some front teeth.

02:34:30.480 - 02:34:44.520

I was, it just really soured me on him altogether. I think I would have done something if I were him to at least get her some teeth fixed, but he no longer was mine. With the arm showing.

02:34:47.100 - 02:34:53.640

Oops. Stay still. - Yeah, it's got a glare. You're gonna have to--

02:34:53.700 - 02:34:58.460

- Turn it? You want me to turn this light out? - No, it's the glare from back there. I just need to move my,

02:34:58.980 - 02:35:04.240

see if I can move the camera a little bit. I love this picture. We have this picture somewhere. - They got this picture.

02:35:04.700 - 02:35:18.380

- Yep, oh yeah. Where are you one more time? With this whole elbow right here, and arm. I'm the third one from, or second one from Jacqueline Cocker.

02:35:19.780 - 02:35:34.800

Is this in the ready room where it's sweet water? Yeah. That's neat. You were going to get her to explain these pictures. Yeah. What's on there? If you could kinda

02:35:34.800 - 02:35:52.500

You mean you want me to talk to it now? Yeah, if you just talk me through kind of what they are. As you can see, this is one of the pictures of a group of us who dressed according to the flag and was different. So that's what that is. Some of us. Usually girls got a firm mouth.

02:35:53.880 - 02:36:15.360

And this is in the ready room at Long Beach. This is myself in the middle and two of the women from there. And this is one of the girls and her instructor. And this is Sweetwater.

02:36:15.800 - 02:36:24.020

Look at that flight line, geez, and those clouds. Those clouds are wonderful. This is a picture on the wall in the other room in there. Mm-hmm.

02:36:25.460 - 02:36:45.100

And this is one of my bay mates, my instructor, explaining to her what you got to do next, I guess. Of course, the P-51, and this one is when I got my wings. General, you know, Pendamone. This is myself.

02:36:45.210 - 02:36:57.480

Winter flight gear. Winter flight gear. Again, Sweetwater graduation P-38. This is a group of girls who are tossing pennies in the wishing well.

02:36:59.460 - 02:37:13.780

And this is one of the group, this is in Little Rock, Arkansas, I think the year we had our thing there. And Loretta Foy. This is B.J.

02:37:13.880 - 02:37:20.460

Erickson, who she was -- LONDON, Burrough? Yeah. in the head of our group in Long Beach.

02:37:20.460 - 02:37:27.800

- Mm-hmm. - In the rain. (laughing) And these are some of the students,

02:37:28.240 - 02:37:42.220

Toll Target students in Liberty Field. And this is a Sweetwater reunion. - That must have, what is it, right after the war? - Wasn't too long.

02:37:42.480 - 02:37:55.120

There was a plaque on the front lawn of the courthouse. Yeah, we're gonna go get that this time. That's still there. These are all women that were at Liberty Field, were stationed at Liberty Field. Mm-hmm.

02:37:55.820 - 02:38:11.060

And this is Betty Nafs, who's dead now. And Louise Bowden Brown, she was the one that was a missionary to India for so long. Wow. And this is my bay mate, my six people in the bay.

02:38:11.140 - 02:38:17.820

Mm-hmm. B-17, and this one, I like this one, that's an A-20. That's you. It's me, 824.

02:38:18.340 - 02:38:28.420

That's great. These are marching gals. And this is Jean Robinson, lives in Hawaii. Well, we have somebody going to Hawaii at Christmas.

02:38:29.560 - 02:38:36.180

This is it. --is on staff for Baylor in development. Now, this is-- --first thing she did was look at our project and said--

02:38:36.180 - 02:38:43.380

Oh, the son's house. This is so beautiful. And the woman who is the president of our board is the head of the entrepreneurial--

02:38:43.380 - 02:38:52.700

That's a great-looking family. the entrepreneurial school at Baylor, which is outstanding. - They turned out okay. So...