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[BEEPING] I am Maruli. OK. I'm Deanie Parrish, and we're in the home of Dorothy Lucas

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in San Antonio, Texas. Dorothy was a member of class 44W6 in the WASP 7. You want to start over? - No.

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- 44W7. - And today is April 8th, 2000. - I've gotta refocus anyway, so that's all right. Keep going.

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- Okay. Dorothy, you wanna tell us who you are? - Yes. - And how you grew up? - I'm Dorothy Lucas.

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I was born in Norfolk, Virginia, December 4th, 1922. When I was two or three years old, We moved to Miami, Florida, and we lived there six years, I think it was.

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My mother had two sons and a daughter, and then I was the baby, two boys and then two girls. And from there, the Depression came. My father was a manager of the Miami Tire Company in Miami.

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And that was like a, oh, what are those stores, Al? Like, where do they sell automobile parts and things? - That's okay, I need her to start over anyway, because I like the level better now.

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So we're perfect now. - Okay, shall I start with my name? - Start with her name. - I'm Dorothy Lucas, and I was born in Norfolk, Virginia,

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the fourth of four children. I had two older brothers and a sister, when I was the baby. When I was one and a half or two years old,

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we moved to Miami, Florida. And in those days, I don't think they had moving vans or if they did. Anyway, my mother's, all of our possessions were sent

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by boat from Norfolk down to Miami and the boat sank. There goes all our baby pictures, all of my mother's memorabilia from her childhood everything. Everything was lost. Well, my father was a general manager of a Miami Tower

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Company, which was like the auto -- Western Auto. Western Auto, like a Western Auto store now. And then came the Depression, and we moved to Asheville, North Carolina, Western North Carolina. And after that, let's see, my father

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We moved to—my mother and father separated, and we moved to Norfolk, Virginia, where I was born. We were there, I think, a year or two. And then I went to live with my mother.

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My mother went back to my father, and I went to live with my aunt and uncle in Washington, D.C., which is where my mother was born. She was a Washingtonian. I finished high school there.

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Then I went to Strayer's Business College in Washington. I got a job immediately with P.F. Collier, the Collier Magazine, working in the office. I'd sent out the bills and so forth. In the meantime, I had taken a civil service exam and was called to work for the War Department

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down on Constitution Avenue. and went to work for the government. - Yes. - Okay, could we back up and let me ask you

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about high school? - Oh, I'm gonna move the mic out of the shot while you're doing that, Mom. - Okay.

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- Is this stopped? - Nope, I talked too loud. - No, no, no, I just didn't want to take a picture of it the whole time.

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- Let's go back and tell me about any teacher that you had. - Oh, yes. - That you were fond of.

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- Ready now. - Mm-hmm. - Oh. I don't remember too many of my teachers except one who was an English teacher, and her name

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was Mrs. Oppenheimer. And oh, she was so wonderful, and I really, really loved English. Oh, and I also had another, a man teacher I liked, but I can't remember his name. But anyway, it was an interesting experience my senior year in high school there in Washington

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because there were senators, sons and daughters who were classmates. And a lot of notable people in Washington went to school there at Woodrow Wilson High School.

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And I did graduate in 1940. And I will tell you about the day we graduated, there were stands built outside that we stood on. And as the photographer was taking pictures,

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the stands collapsed. And I had on my first pair of nylon hose. First pair I'd ever owned. And it was a little runny.

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Oh, and I was just sick. But anyway. - As you were growing up with this aunt and uncle, were you the only child in the family?

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- Yeah, I was the only. That was my senior year in high school when I went to live with them. And we,

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and she was my godmother. She was my mother's sister, my aunt was. - And so-- - What did you study in high school?

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What did you intend to do? - Mainly secretarial. I took bookkeeping, typing, shorthand, because I figured I'd have to go to work.

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There wasn't money to go to school. So when I went out to work at the War Department, I started going to night school at George Washington University.

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- Well, then, and I also had a friend, Margaret, and she and I were really good friends. And during the war, oh, Pearl Harbor, I'm jumping around an awful lot,

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on December 7th, 1941, my brother and my mother and I went to a football game, and it was the Washington Redskins playing the Philadelphia Eagles. And all during the game, over the loudspeaker,

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they'd say, "Admiral so-and-so, report to your office now," or, "General so-and-so, report to your office now." You know, all during—and we thought, "Well, what's going on?" You know, but the game went on.

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And afterwards, Mother was going somewhere for dinner with someone, and so my brother and I were going back to our house, and a man—we were standing on the corner waiting for the bus to take us down Connecticut Avenue. And this man said, "Did you hear the Japanese Pearl, bomb Pearl Harbor?" And we hadn't, you see. "Oh," he said. And I said, "Oh, what

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does that mean?" I looked to my brother, Cortland, and he said, "Well, it means war." I said, "Oh, no." And so we got home, and as we walked in, the phone was ringing, and it was his office. My brother worked at the Navy Department, which was right next door to the building where I worked in the munitions building. He was called to go to his office, so he went.

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And then, as time went on, of course, we—I do not know if other people did this, but I can remember Mother, when we would have canned vegetables, would take the label off and take the top and the bottom off, and then we'd step on it to make it flat.

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And they would pick that up for the war effort, the metal. And let's see, and things were rationed, our shoes were rationed, and our meat was rationed, as I recall.

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And everyone in Washington wanted to, well, everyone everywhere, I suppose, wanted to do something for the war effort. And my good friend Margaret came home one day,

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And she said, "I heard of this organization that girls fly airplanes." And I said, "Well, where'd you hear that?" And she said, "Well, a girl where I work told me about it, and her name is Frances Standifer.

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You know her?" And so I met Frances, and we talked, and she said, "Oh, I'm so excited," and so forth and so on. So Margaret and I applied and got the information.

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Well, this was 1943, early, and I had just had my twentieth birthday in December before. And the requirement then was age limit 21 to 35. Well, I thought, "Oh, I have a whole year to get these 35 flight hours in." And Margaret was a little bit older.

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She was already 21. Well, that summer they lowered the age limit to 18 to 35. So then we put our—and we had started flying that summer at Frederick, Maryland. You could not fly within a 50-mile radius of the Capitol.

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So we either had to go down in Virginia or Maryland—or go up in Maryland. So we went to Frederick, Maryland and stayed at an old farmhouse. This woman rented us a room on the weekend, and we'd fly on the weekend. So I was working in the day, going to school at night, and flying on weekends to learn

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to get my hours in. At that time, the hours were $9 an hour, dual, and $7 an hour, solo. And so I borrowed $200 from my mother, and that paid for my learning to get the 35 hours I ended up with like 41 when they said, "Come, but get your physical."

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So we went out to Bowling Field in Washington and had the Army 6-4, which was the physical then. That's what it was called. We both passed, and we were so thrilled and excited.

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And Margaret came to me one day and she said, "Dorothy, I'm not going to go to Sweetwater with you." And I said, "What do you mean? You talked me into this.

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We were going to do this together." And she said, "Well, my parents don't want me to be a pilot." They were from -- she was from Guntersville, Alabama, and they just could not see her being a pilot.

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So she became an airline stewardess. They call them a flight attendant now. And she was flying on a route from Chicago to Washington, and one trip over West Virginia, they cross over just a little bit of West Virginia from Chicago to Washington, and the

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plane crashed and she was killed. And her parents had felt so much better that she was being a stewardess instead of being a pilot. So that was a bit ironic.

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Tell me about your mother and how she felt about your flying. - She was proud of me, and my mother worked in the alumni office of Georgetown University. And by then my parents had divorced.

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- Tell me about when you went out to this farm to take lessons about the airplane. - Well, Margaret and I had the same instructor. There was only one man who taught flying there,

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and he was a wonderful fellow, an older man. Well, I-- - Do you remember your first flying lesson? - No, but I remember the day I soloed.

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- Okay, could you tell us about soloing? - I had, I guess-- - What kind of airplanes? - Seven or eight. We flew two kinds.

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We flew an Aronca Chief, which was a side-by-side, and a, oh, what's that little dinky one? - Piper cut? - Yeah, piper cut.

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And I think it was in a piper, no, it was in an Aronco Chief, because I remember I had landed, and he jumped out, and I said, "Where are you going?"

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He said, "Okay, you're ready, go on around." Oh, I was so scared and so happy, and I did it. But he surprised me. I think most instructors do it that way, don't you?

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They don't, anyway. So my mother had sort of an interesting life. Do you want to hear about that? - Sure.

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- When she was a girl in Washington, she and her friend used to go to the Capitol and skate down the steps, and the steps are wide, this wide, but shallow, you know,

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and they'd skate on down. And then one day she and her friend were over at the, near the White House, and they went in, and my mother played piano by ear,

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and she was about 12 years old, and she sat down and started playing the piano in one of those rooms. And the guard came by and he said,

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"Now you little girls, run on, run on." But in those days, everything was wide open, you see. So that was kind of interesting. - Who was president then?

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- I don't know. I don't know. But now, during the war, if you'll remember, Tony McAuliffe was the general who said nuts to the Germans

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when they said, "Surrender." - Well, he and my mother went to old Eastern High School in Washington, D.C. together. So that was kind of a fun thing to know about.

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- Then when you started to go to Sweetwater, how did you get to Sweetwater? - Okay, somehow I met Nancy, oh my God, what's her last name, Al?

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Nancy? No, Nancy in Washington, Nancy Clay. And they called her Prop Wash. She edited the paper that was there at Sweetwater, or was in on it somehow, I don't know.

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She was a real fun girl. And I had met her, and then I met Jody Richardson. So we were all three going to be in the same class, and Jody was going to drive. She had this good-looking convertible, and oh, we just had the best time driving from

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Washington to Sweetwater, the three of us. And after about a month, Jody washed out, but Nancy and I finished. Nancy was in the first flight, though, and I didn't know those girls as well as I knew the second flight, because my maiden name was Smith.

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And of course, I was in the second flight. And my Sweetwater training was wonderful as far as I was concerned, except on the last that 2,000 mile trip we took at the end, just before we graduated, I flew to Blythe, California,

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and back. Well, on the last leg from, what was that, El Paso, I think, to Sweetwater, the smoke started coming up in the cockpit. And I'm thinking, what in the world is this?

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So I called the tower, and they gave me permission to land straight in, not to circle around, do all that business. And so, oh boy, I think I jumped out of that.

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And I looked down as I'm landing, And here's the meat wagon, you know, the ambulance and all this stuff lined up and it scared me to pieces besides all this smoke coming out.

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And I think I jumped out of that plane when it was rolling still. But I don't know whether it was an oil leak that hit something hot, the engine or something.

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I don't know what it was, never did know. So that was pretty exciting right there. - While you were at Sweetwater, did any of your bay mates wash out?

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- Yes, we had, well, only one girl, I think, of the original, were there six of us in a bay, I think? Pat Smythe, there were two Smythe girls there. They were sisters-in-law, they weren't sisters,

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but they told everybody they were sisters, but anyway. And Pat supposedly got secretly married and was pregnant, and so just before we graduated, she disappeared. - Tell me about your instructors at Sweetwater,

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how they felt about it. - Oh, I had really neat instructors, as far as I can remember. I had Mr. Roberson for primary,

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and then he had an emergency appendectomy toward the end of our PT-17s we started off in. And then I had Mr. Fox, F-U-C-H-S, and he was really great too.

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And neither one of them swore so much. But then we went to 86's from PT-17's. And do you know, I can't, oh, a Mr. Smith we had. And I'm wondering if he's the one who was instructing Kay

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and whoever that was who was with her. Didn't they, did they crash or, I can't remember. Well anyway, if they got into trouble, I know. But I know when I first met Mr. Smith,

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and he lined us all up, and he said, now I don't want you all to do what those other girls did or something. And I think he must have been referring to K-Hum.

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I didn't know then, of course. But anyway. And then, let's see. - Tell us about your schedule while you were in training.

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- Well, we flew in the mornings and went to ground school in the afternoon, or vice versa. And I loved every bit of it. But when we first started Morse Code,

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I thought, oh, I'll never learn this. But I didn't. I loved it. It was great.

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And I really did exactly what I was told, because I was so happy to be there. And I had paid my mother back the $200, incidentally. And I think nowadays, the children,

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when they borrow from their parents, they kind of forget to pay back, don't they? Sometimes. Tell us, what were your expectations when you went into the WASP, when you went into

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training? What did you expect? I expected to be sent to Bombers or something big because I was tall. And I was really disappointed, I think, when I got my orders to go to Morphele, this advanced

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flying school. But I hadn't been there but maybe days when I met Al and we started going out together. I was very happy, and I reported there to the Gunnery Squadron and to TARGET mainly. Tell me, what is the best thing that happened while you were at Sweetwater?

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I graduated. The best thing that happened to me when I was at Sweetwater was the fact that I graduated. Well, that's another thing that's sort of a blur. Had you gotten uniforms?

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Tell us about your— - Yes, uh-huh. We, oh, we did get uniforms, and I thought they were beautiful,

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and I loved the hat, and a lot of people don't, but I did, I thought they were cute, but. Now, I had to get a size 14 to get, 'cause I'm tall, I had to get,

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I had to let the sleeves out, and the hem and the dress, and then it was taken in, can you believe that? But anyway, I was pretty thin then. - And about graduation, what was that day like for you?

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- It was wonderful, I know that, but I don't really remember a lot. I don't, I really don't. - Was there a band?

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Do you remember? - I'm sure there was. I'm sure there was a band, but I don't recall. - And when you finished, when you graduated,

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then did you have some leave time? - Yeah, I think I did have leave right after we graduated, and I went home to Washington, and my orders were sent there to go to Moorfield.

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- Where is Moorfield? - In Mission, Texas, near McAllen. - Were there other classmates who were also assigned to that station?

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- Two or three from my class, yes, and oh, was I ever happy to see these two or three classmates of mine. And oh, incidentally, when I went to Sweetwater,

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I went out to Bowling and I got a plane flight to Shreveport. Then I was trying to get from there down to Harlingen or in that area. I waited, I think, two days and slept in that ready room at Shreveport. I never could, so then I had to get a bus, I think, down to Harlingen, I guess. Is that on the coast there right near Padre, South Padre? Okay. So then

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get out of there, and so I got on another bus, and this is the first time I'd ever seen animals on a bus. There was a lady with a chicken and a man with a pig or something. And I never had seen a lot of Spanish people, and there were a lot of those. And I was scared, but I was very innocent when I was twenty-one years old, believe me.

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And so -- in training, did you ever have any contact with Jacqueline Cochran? Or what was your relationship? I never had any contact with Jacqueline Cochran other than at Sweetwater.

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And no, I never even talked to her, really. She came to, of course, the Sweetwater several times when I was there in training. Pause. I wasn't one.

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Okay. Another reason I was interested in flying was my older brother was a cadet at Hondo Navigator School. And I loved my brothers, they were just wonderful.

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And I thought, oh, I'll do something, maybe he'll be proud of me, you know, 'cause I was very proud of him. And then my younger brother, who was just two years,

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oh, there I go fooling around, who was just two years younger than my older brother, joined the Navy. And he was on an oil tanker

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and was out to sea a lot during the war. And my sister had married and had a couple of children, so, you know, that was her story. And I had been to Sweetwater about a month.

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Well, not even a month, 'cause I had not soloed, and we had word that my older brother had been killed and a B-17 overseas. So that was very hard for me, very, very hard. And I just didn't think I'd make it through Sweetwater at that point. And my instructor, that Mr. Roberson,

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oh, he was so kind. And I think I had about nine hours before I soloed, because I thought, well, I'll crash today, you know. But I never had thought about that until my brother had been killed. Did they send his body back?

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- No, not for years. He was buried in England. I think it was '47, and he's buried in Arlington now. And, let's see.

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Oh, and see, and my younger brother's the one who called me at Sweetwater and told me that Mason had been killed, and he said, "I wish I had been the one."

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I said, "Oh, don't say that." You know. - Where was your mother at this time? - Mother was still in Washington.

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She couldn't even talk to me on the phone, it was terrible. Then I called home every Sunday after that from Sweetwater, every Sunday I called. And she did say at one time,

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don't you think you ought to come home? And I said, Mom, I just can't. Just felt like I had invested all that $200. That's like two or 3,000 now, you know.

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- Did the administrators at Avenger know about your brother? - To my knowledge, no, but I think they did. I'm sure Mr. Roberson, somebody told Mr. Roberson, and he was so kind and gave me those extra hours.

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And one day I just could tell I was really giving him a good ride, and that's the day I soloed from NPT-17s after that. But I don't know, I don't recall

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than anybody ever came to see me except one girl, and she lives in Houston and married within the last two or three years. Mary Helen came to see me.

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Oh, you might know her. Maybe she's in your class. Didn't she marry recently in the last several years? - I know there's somebody down there named Mary Helen

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that got the chapel, maybe. - I don't know. Anyway, Chapman or, anyway, she did come to see me as an upperclassman and tried to make me feel better.

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- Okay, now we're gonna go to Mission, Texas. Do you remember about reporting? - Yes, I do remember. - Where did you live?

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- Yeah. I got as far as some hotel there in Mission. I don't know the name of it. Do you remember, Al, that hotel in Mission?

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Well, anyway, and here was my friend Putnam, Mary Alice Putnam Van Deventer is her name now. And she lives in Luters, Texas. And oh, I'm so happy to see her.

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And so I don't remember how we got from there to out to the field, which was maybe 20 miles. Wasn't it now, 15 or 20 miles? But anyway.

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And we reported to Colonel Frank Jamison, and we saluted and we did that, when we turned around, we twirled around, you know, 180 degrees, whatever that is.

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I was so silly. But she and I did that together. Then there were two other girls, Nancy Nordoff and Carol Nicholson,

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who were also sent there. And there were like maybe 15 of us there, but never all at once, because they were either flying

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or flying administrative flights. And so, we really had a good time. - What were your quarters like? - Oh, we were put into the old nurses,

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well, not old nurses, the nurses' old quarters. And it was a great big old building, and our rooms were very small, in a little teen-itesy closet,

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and there was a bathroom, and then another small room, and that was where my friend Putt was. And she and I would walk to the flat line together, and I'm sure it was a long way, but we didn't care.

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We were young, you know, and didn't have a car. And so we did walk, and we'd have to go by the cadets' quarters. Oh, that was so fun, because they'd always whistle at us. And we were so crazy, we were scared, as if they'd jump out the window at us or something,

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you know. But we were never harassed, or that I recall. And what was your primary duty? My primary duty at Moorfield was to tow targets.

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And I did that, and I loved it. Who did you tow targets for? What were those targets for? For the male cadets who were in the advanced flying school.

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And I flew a set pattern, and there was a young enlisted man in the back. I was probably younger than he was, I don't know, in those days. But he operated the cable by hand, and that cable weighed 600 pounds, which meant you couldn't wrap that plane around and do funny acrobatics and anything.

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You just had to fly straight and level, because it was off balance, I guess you'd say. And who would be, would there be someone firing at that target? What was that target used for? The cadets had—I guess they had camera guns also, didn't they?

00:28:57.960 - 00:29:20.500

On the end of this long cable was a flag, and that was their target, the cadets' target. There were six cadets who flew with their instructor learning aerial gunnery. And the sessions were maybe forty-five minutes to an hour long, I'm sure. What type of aircraft were you flying?

00:29:20.500 - 00:29:26.020

I flew an 86. Okay. And what kind of airplane were these cadets in? 86s.

00:29:26.120 - 00:29:49.240

All of us were in the cadets and the tow target were 86s. And we would fly over the auxiliary field, and I'd slow the plane down, and he would release that target and then roll that cable back up into the plane. And then I would circle around and land. Now, there was a funny incident.

00:29:50.860 - 00:30:07.140

Landing one time I saw Al's plane down there, so I knew he was watching his six cadets make takeoffs and landings. And I thought, "Oh, my goodness, I'm going to have to make a really good landing." And I leveled off too high and that plane dropped down, and I bounced all the way down

00:30:07.200 - 00:30:17.780

the runway. And I thought, "Oh, he'll never ask me for another date." But he married me anyway. - Let's back up to when you met this instructor.

00:30:18.020 - 00:30:23.280

- Yeah. - And tell us about that. We wanna hear about that. - Well, that's another thing I don't remember.

00:30:24.780 - 00:30:32.720

- Maybe we oughta talk to Al. - He doesn't remember either. But we did meet one night in the Officer's Club, I know that.

00:30:33.360 - 00:30:41.960

And we were all sitting around, it was kind of a nice little Officer's Club, as I recall, there were little groupings of furniture here, over here, and then over here,

00:30:42.000 - 00:30:52.620

and then the bar was a little room in the back. And I don't know, the boys always just came over and started talking to us, and he must have been one of them.

00:30:53.580 - 00:31:01.960

- Okay, and then you started dating. - We did, uh-huh. But now there were a couple girls there who also, there were four or five of us

00:31:02.020 - 00:31:21.920

who found husbands there, incidentally. And The one night, I remember we stayed out until 2.30, and I thought, "My gosh, if my mother could see me coming in at 2.30 in the morning, she'd kill me."

00:31:21.920 - 00:31:38.500

But anyway, there were several girls there who stayed out very late, and then they couldn't fly in the next morning. And so they called and asked Putt and me to fly their place. So I got in a lot of flying time down there at Moorfield.

00:31:39.980 - 00:31:55.940

- Dorothy, let me back up because I've never heard this about target towing. - Oh. - About, and tell me, did these six students take off at one time? Did they take off individually?

00:31:56.960 - 00:32:10.720

And they were... - They were each in, the cadets were in a plane of their own, alone, as I recall. And I don't know, but I know that I was to be at a certain altitude, at a certain place, at a certain time.

00:32:11.460 - 00:32:28.100

So when all seven planes, because the instructor was in one plane, got there, then I flew my set pattern. And you fly so many minutes or miles, whatever, and then come out and turn around and come back and then you turn around back here.

00:32:29.500 - 00:32:44.200

And of course the cadets thought that was a boring job, but then they didn't want to they wanted to go overseas and be in combat, you know. So they never wanted to be a tow target operator. But that's it?

00:32:44.200 - 00:32:53.980

Oh, okay. Is that the end of your— That's the end of it? Well, when I was towing targets, I knew that I had to be at a certain altitude at a certain

00:32:54.060 - 00:33:20.060

time at a certain place and meet the six cadets and the instructor, each in an individual seven planes. So when we were all ready, when they were lined up or whatever they did, I would start my pattern and fly so many minutes a certain direction, and after that then I'd turn around and come back and fly so many minutes or feet or miles or whatever it was,

00:33:20.480 - 00:33:44.160

and then turn around and come back. And when it's on the straight, the cadets made their passes at the targets. Now I never worried about the cadets except that I didn't want them flying into that flag or that cable, because that would have pulled us all down. But anyway, then when they'd get back to the ready room or whatever it was at the gunnery

00:33:44.300 - 00:34:01.020

squadron, they would play their film and see if they hit the target and how many out of how many rounds of ammo they had or whatever. - While you were there, Dorothy, did you do other things? Did you do administrative?

00:34:01.240 - 00:34:06.900

- Yes. - You tell us. - Yes, we also flew several times up to Tinkerfield in Oklahoma City.

00:34:06.950 - 00:34:20.820

We flew to Dodge City, Kansas and delivered planes. But we always came back on the train. The flight to Dodge City, oh, it was so warm in McAllen. I remember Al, I mean, at Moorfield,

00:34:20.920 - 00:34:31.500

and I remember Al telling me, "You better take a real heavy jacket." And I said, "Oh, poo, it's gonna be hot." Well, we were flying PP-19s up there

00:34:31.570 - 00:34:40.220

and leaving them at Dodge City. I nearly froze. I could hardly get out of that plane when we landed up there at Dodge City.

00:34:40.710 - 00:34:51.440

- How many of you were flying? - There were about four, maybe six of us then. And there was always a little second lieutenant who headed us.

00:34:51.520 - 00:35:06.720

Now, I never flew without a fellow like that who sort of commanded us. - So you flew up to Dodge City and left the airplane. - Left the airplane and then we came back.

00:35:07.620 - 00:35:22.840

We got back on the train. When we went to Oklahoma City, Putt and I would usually be on the trip together And we'd rent a room in Oklahoma City from a woman

00:35:23.240 - 00:35:35.680

who had a rooming house. I remember that. And then we'd get a train and come back to Moorfield. One administrative flight I took to a young captain,

00:35:35.820 - 00:35:46.060

a doctor from Moorfield up to Randolph. And I could tell he was very nervous flying with the girl and so forth, but it made me a little nervous.

00:35:46.580 - 00:35:54.960

And it was in the late afternoon, we landed at Randolph. He was so happy that we didn't crash, he was jumping around, he said, "Can I take you to dinner?"

00:35:55.420 - 00:36:03.700

And I said, "Well, thank you, "but I have a date back at Moorfield." I had a date with Al. So by that time it was getting dark,

00:36:03.780 - 00:36:17.160

and I went on back, and we had our date. - When you, in your quarters, were you living, were there nurses in those quarters at the same time? - No, there were no nurses in the nurses' corps.

00:36:17.220 - 00:36:27.100

I think they graduated to the VOQ or something. But we were in this old abandoned building, and I remember there was a great big kitchen, but I don't ever remember eating there.

00:36:28.060 - 00:36:39.800

And I think after I met Al, we went out to the club every night for dinner, or we went into McAllen to that Eddie's covered wagon. There was a jukebox there,

00:36:41.460 - 00:36:52.020

and he'd take me to dinner. And we danced. We had a lot of fun. Do you remember how you were received by other women on the post?

00:36:53.140 - 00:37:15.420

I think everyone was very nice, really. I don't ever remember anybody being funny or, you know, not liking us. We were congenial and so were they. On your tow target missions, how often were you scheduled?

00:37:15.970 - 00:37:30.340

Do you remember? Almost every day, unless there was an administrative flight or taking a plane somewhere and leaving it. I just did whatever I was told.

00:37:30.810 - 00:37:38.860

How was the weather? Very warm, and I loved it. There were palm trees down there. It looked a lot like Florida to me.

00:37:40.220 - 00:38:05.140

Everything was green and beautiful down there. Do you remember the first time that you heard that the WASP might be disbanded? Tell us about how you felt. When I first heard that the WASP would be disbanded, I didn't believe it.

00:38:05.420 - 00:38:20.940

I thought that was another rumor. I didn't like it a bit. I was really disappointed. But then by then, Al had proposed, my husband had proposed to me.

00:38:23.400 - 00:38:31.860

And after I said yes, the first thing I asked him was, "Could I please meet some of your family?" Isn't that funny? That's an odd thing.

00:38:32.260 - 00:38:39.560

Nowadays, they don't care, but I did. I did. So he proposed while you were still in the Army? Uh-huh, yeah.

00:38:41.260 - 00:38:50.320

Did you set a date at that time, or what were your plans? A month. Then he said, "When?" And I said, "Oh, I don't want him to think I'm too anxious."

00:38:50.980 - 00:38:57.940

So I said, "March." And he said, "How about January?" This was in December. I said, "Well, we'll meet in the middle.

00:38:58.080 - 00:39:13.920

How about February?" So in February, so the next weekend he called and asked his mother to come from Houston there. And so she came on the train, and we went in one Sunday.

00:39:14.160 - 00:39:27.600

I guess we had lunch with her at the Casa de Palmas, the only hotel in McAllen. Did she approve of you? I don't know. He married me anyway.

00:39:28.060 - 00:39:53.100

Yeah, I think she did approve. Tell us about the deactivation itself. What happened? Did you have parades? Oh, there was nothing that I recall. We just left the base and we had to pay our own way home, you know. And one of the wives, her husband was at Charleston, I believe, or Columbia, South Carolina.

00:39:53.300 - 00:40:10.820

And so a couple of us got a ride as far as there with her, and then I got on a bus and went on into Washington from there. But there was no fanfare or no anything. We just left on the 20th of December, 1944.

00:40:11.900 - 00:40:29.040

And when you got to Washington, then what did you do? Then I called my old boss in the Pentagon. By the time I left, my office had been moved from the old munitions building on Constitution Avenue out to the Pentagon.

00:40:29.220 - 00:40:45.860

In fact, we were one of the first offices at the Pentagon. And he said, "You bet we'll hire you again." And so, but then it was getting so close to when we were going to get married, and I had to get a wedding dress and all that stuff.

00:40:46.420 - 00:41:04.240

And so I never went back to work. I had to call them and say, "I think I'm getting married." And so Al's mother and his sister and her husband came up and we were married February 24, 1945 in Washington.

00:41:06.130 - 00:41:18.020

In a church? In All Saints Episcopal Church on Cathedral Avenue in Washington. And was your mother and your brother? My younger brother gave me away.

00:41:24.220 - 00:41:36.440

That was all with the mother. My sister came up from—where did they live? I think they lived in Virginia, she and her husband and the two little children. She was in my wedding, too.

00:41:40.580 - 00:41:56.700

Then we went right to Houston and met the rest of his family and friends, and then we went back to Moorfield. When you got to Moorfield, where did you live? We lived in McAllen.

00:41:57.400 - 00:42:23.480

We lived in a duplex, one side of a duplex. I think our rent was $25 a month, and that included the land order to cut the grass. He was with a group of men who took turns driving because of the gas rationing. And they would drive, and it was twenty-five, twenty-seven miles out to the base from McAllen.

00:42:25.600 - 00:42:41.580

Were you involved in activities with other officers' wives? Yes, and I was elected vice president of the Wives Club, and I didn't even know what I was doing. But luckily, soon after that, we were sent to Stewart Field up in Newburgh, New York.

00:42:42.540 - 00:42:59.220

How did you get from Mission to Newburgh, New York? In the little Mercury that he proposed to me in, the car. We drove up there with another couple who were being sent up there, too. Did you have furniture and stuff?

00:42:59.640 - 00:43:11.940

Very little. Of course. Very little. house with another couple. Oh, and there was only one bed. So we flipped a coin or something,

00:43:12.180 - 00:43:38.320

and by this time I'm pregnant. See, this was in -- well, it was snowing up there, and we married in February, so this was the next winter, see, the next fall. And it was either sleep on the cot or in this bed, so Al and I got the cot. And I mean, it was an Army Army cot with canvas and two of us plus pregnant on that Army cot. Oh boy. That was very uncomfortable.

00:43:39.200 - 00:43:55.900

Very. And what was Al doing? He was, I don't know. Then he flew C-47s, I think, up there. He went to Florida and all around. Then he decided to get out of the service. So he got out of the service.

00:43:56.300 - 00:44:17.340

Is this before you had that baby? Yeah, just before. So we went back to Houston, and I had the baby there April the 6th. She just turned 53, I think it was. 1946. She was 54. Yeah. So Al got out of the service.

00:44:17.380 - 00:44:36.740

Got out of service and went into the real estate business in Houston, and we were there three years. And I had had another baby little girl, and we decided to go back in the service. And we did. Went back in the Air Force, and Al went to— What year was this?

00:44:39.160 - 00:44:59.060

'49. And he left in February, I think it was, of '49. And I got over there with the two little girls in July, June, June or July. Got over where? to Newbyburg in Munich, Germany. Newbyburg Air Force Base or Newbyburg Field, I guess

00:44:59.060 - 00:45:18.160

it was. How did you get to Germany? I was scheduled to go on the boat, a boat, from Fort Hamilton, New York. And when I got to Washington, Al had written me to call this colonel friend of his. And so I called Joe

00:45:18.160 - 00:45:35.500

in the Pentagon, and he said, I said, "Is there any way I can get on a plane instead of going by boat over to Germany?" And he said, "Well, let me call you back." And he called me back, and he got me on a plane out of -- where did we fly from? In Massachusetts somewhere.

00:45:37.140 - 00:45:52.960

Where did we go? So you're going to Germany, and at what age are these two babies? Well I had them both in a harness on the leash, I'll tell you that. And I had seven hat boxes and suitcases, plus a steamer trunk.

00:45:53.480 - 00:46:05.660

I mean a trunk. That was the procedure in those days, I guess. So where in Massachusetts did we always leave from? What's that field up there?

00:46:06.980 - 00:46:39.360

Well I don't know. I landed at -- where did I land? At Rhine, Maine? Anyway, Al was able to meet me because he had the car over there, and he met us. No, we got on a train from wherever the plane landed. It did not land in Munich. It landed like in Rhine, Maine or someplace. And then

00:46:39.360 - 00:47:12.880

I was so tired. It was a terrible flight over. We landed in the Azores at like midnight. The girls were sick, and they had never been up past seven o'clock at night. Here it was midnight. We rode on a bus in the Azores up this hill. It was beautiful. To the top of this hill was the officers club and we all had dinner at midnight or something. Then

00:47:12.900 - 00:47:24.000

we took off again. I think we landed at Rhein Main, but I'm not certain of that. I can't remember. And when you got to Munich, what were your quarters like? Al had a house.

00:47:25.360 - 00:47:50.680

On the base? No. Nobody lived on the base there. We lived in a section of Munich called Rammersdorf. And we had a cute house. It was a two-story house, but it was very small. And in the wintertime -- we had a maid then -- in the wintertime, she had to hang the diapers inside the house

00:47:50.740 - 00:48:10.280

up above the staircase. And it was pretty bad, pretty bad. Then we finally got a bigger house over there, and that was very nice. And that was a wonderful tour. We made a lot of good friends who are still our friends now, some of whom live here in

00:48:10.460 - 00:48:29.420

San Antonio. Did your children start school there? Our first one did in the first grade, and the second one was in kindergarten. Then we were sent from there to Chanute Field, and we all came back on the boat, ship, and

00:48:29.440 - 00:48:44.340

that was so bad because we were on D as in dog, deck, and that's down there by the engine. Oh, and I was so sick, all the way across the Atlantic I vomited. How many days? A good week.

00:48:44.460 - 00:48:50.040

I think it must have been eight days. I thought I would die. In fact, I prayed to die. It was so bad.

00:48:51.600 - 00:49:09.000

Oh, incidentally, I had the third little girl in Munich. So Al had all three girls, had taken them to the dining room, and they'd bring back crackers to me to eat because I couldn't eat anything. We landed in New York, and Al's mother was there.

00:49:10.520 - 00:49:29.480

That was fun, except that I was sick on the second day out and the seventh day. I got better. The day we left and the day we landed, I got well, or I was okay. Then Al got sick in New York and we stayed in this apartment that Al's mother had.

00:49:31.200 - 00:49:51.360

I went to four or five shows and he was sick. And then the fifth day, we had ordered a brand new Ford station wagon, and that came. And we drove from there down to Orlando to see my brother and his family. And then I got really sick.

00:49:51.360 - 00:50:12.940

I had strep throat and I had to go to the doctor. And we visited with my brother and his family, and they had two little boys then, or maybe just one. Then we drove to Houston to visit his family, and then we drove back up to Chanute Field.

00:50:12.940 - 00:50:30.260

That's what we did in Illinois, which is south of Chicago. We had a nice little house in Urbana, Illinois, until we got Wary Housing. That was really small. Was that on the base?

00:50:30.360 - 00:50:43.140

Yeah, that was on the base. Then we moved to a nicer quarters called O'Neill Courts, which were brick quarters, and they were very nice at Chanute. We were there four years maybe.

00:50:44.000 - 00:50:55.560

What did you do while you were there? Well I was very active in the Wives Club and I was thin and cute in those days and modeled and all that stuff. I took care of these three little girls.

00:50:56.560 - 00:51:21.100

And then I got pregnant again and had our son, our boy up there at Chanute. And then Al applied to go to school at Indiana U. He had gone to Texas for three and a half years and didn't get his degree because he enlisted in the Air Force and went right into cadets in January of '42.

00:51:23.520 - 00:51:42.880

So then the Air Force sent him to school at Indiana U, and he got his degree there. Then we were sent to Clarkville and Phil--. Oh, we had a terrible house we rented in Bloomington, Indiana, which is where the university was. So I couldn't wait to get out there.

00:51:43.210 - 00:51:49.360

Boy. So then— When your children were going to school, were they in a school on the base? No.

00:51:49.360 - 00:52:02.120

Or were they in a— No. They were—the only place on the base was at Clark Field. But they went on the bus at Chenute and went to school there.

00:52:03.460 - 00:52:27.360

And then when we got to Indiana—and they were wonderful schools, incidentally, Indiana and Illinois schools were wonderful for the grammar school. Well by the time we got orders for Clark Field, the third daughter was—she must have been in the first grade when we went to—no, maybe fourth grade when we went to Clark Field in

00:52:28.760 - 00:52:46.700

the Philippines. And Al had gone over there in January or February, and then I didn't get there until July. It was over the fourth of July weekend. Kelly: How did you get to Clark?

00:52:46.880 - 00:52:59.680

Litz: Okay, I went to Travis Air Force Base, and they put us on a plane, and we landed in Hawaii and Guam and then Clark. And that was pretty— - Four children traveling with you.

00:52:59.700 - 00:53:11.260

- Yeah, four. And Tom, a little boy, was two years old. But they did at, Travis, they gave us a little sailor, a Filipino.

00:53:12.820 - 00:53:24.000

There were other people on the plane besides dependents, you know, and he was to help me with the children. And he did. You know, that was part of their job, to help,

00:53:24.180 - 00:53:33.060

because here I had these three little, Well, my Jana was about 12 or 13 years old. She was giving me a hard time about that time, our oldest daughter,

00:53:34.380 - 00:53:44.540

and getting ready to get on the plane at Travis the day or two before, I said, "Now, Jana, you should wear a full skirt traveling." In those days, we didn't wear slacks.

00:53:47.880 - 00:53:58.900

And so just to be obstreperous to me, she wore a straight skirt, and we got on that plane, And after sleeping in this skirt, she said, "Mother, you were right, I should have,

00:53:59.420 - 00:54:06.040

you know, you're more comfortable when you can wiggle around." And here she was in this straight skirt, and I thought, it serves you right.

00:54:07.520 - 00:54:16.100

Defying your mother. - When you flew over, were you flying military aircraft? - Yeah. And I don't know what it was,

00:54:16.180 - 00:54:30.960

but we entered the tail of the plane, like a C-5 now, but I don't think they had C-5s in, what, '58. That was '58 we went over to Clark Field. And that's where I learned to play golf. Hallelujah.

00:54:32.210 - 00:54:46.300

Tell us about your stay at Clark. We loved it. That was a good station, too. There, did you live on the base? No. At first we lived in a little, right off the base, a little place called Angelese.

00:54:47.300 - 00:55:02.540

And that was our first experience with having anything stolen. We left the girls' brand I knew a little Schwinn bicycle out front, and we were in the back, and Al was cooking on a barbecue, and the maid was there. And all of a sudden she said, "The bicycle!"

00:55:02.540 - 00:55:14.840

And she ran out front to get it, and it was gone. So they had stolen our bike off the base. And I don't remember how long. We were there several months in the little house, and it was Darling House.

00:55:15.360 - 00:55:27.880

And Al had bought rattan furniture, but you had to have your own then. And I thought, "Oh, that's such cute furniture and everything." Then we got quarters on the base up on the hill. And they were nice.

00:55:27.920 - 00:55:36.880

They were stucco quarters, and everybody was around us, we knew. And then, let's see. I don't know. I guess—

00:55:36.880 - 00:56:01.840

How was it that you spent your time there? Well, I also was involved with the Wives Club there, and I played a lot of golf. So I did run for president of the Wives Club at Clarkville, and I was defeated, luckily. And I became chairman of the membership chairman. I was membership chairman. And that was really

00:56:01.920 - 00:56:21.240

interesting because I always liked to meet people and know their names, and I was very good at names. And it was a fun job, really. I got to know all sorts of people. And that's It was the first time really that I played bridge at all. And then I became involved with the bridge.

00:56:22.540 - 00:56:31.920

Let's see, after Clark, where did we go, 1960? - And the children, what kind of schools did they go to? - They went to school like at six in the morning because of the heat.

00:56:32.600 - 00:56:42.280

And then they got out a little after lunch, you see. Maybe one o'clock or something. But the school bus, they'd go on the school bus, and it was off base.

00:56:42.360 - 00:56:50.420

I don't know where they went. But then Jenna got to be in high school and she went on the base, but the little ones went off, as I recall.

00:56:52.280 - 00:57:06.140

And we had a nice maid over there who was real nice. And we had an avocado tree in our backyard and I loved avocado, well we all did then. - And then he got orders to go where?

00:57:06.600 - 00:57:22.280

- To, let's see, 60, oh, Seymour Johnson in Goldsboro, North Carolina. We went from Clark Field to Seymour Johnson. And that was, they had three outfits there.

00:57:22.700 - 00:57:35.180

Tack, didn't they? And Sack, and Al was in the 19th Air Force, I think. Weren't you, Dad? And that was a nice base too.

00:57:35.280 - 00:57:53.520

We generally liked every place we ever went. Now, Jenna graduated from high school there. I see, where do we go after that? I think you retired after that.

00:57:53.720 - 00:58:11.320

How did your children feel about being taken from one place to another? They didn't mind a bit, except when we were at Clarkville and to come back to Seymour Johnson, and the two older girls just cried and cried. "Oh, we don't want to go, we don't want to go."

00:58:11.320 - 00:58:23.240

And they weren't in the new school two weeks and they loved it in Goldsboro. And Jana graduated from high school there. I think, no, Helen did not.

00:58:23.360 - 00:58:36.380

Then out and retired and we went to Austin. And Jana didn't want to go with us, so she graduated from Seymour Johnson in Goldsboro, North Carolina,

00:58:36.500 - 00:58:51.740

and she was a good student, So she applied to Duke, to William & Mary, and to women's college or something in Goldsboro. Not Goldsboro, not Charlotte. Oh, one of those places you've heard of.

00:58:52.340 - 00:59:08.720

And she said whichever one called her first, she would probably go. In the meantime, we'd taken her up to Duke and been interviewed there at Durham, North Carolina. And she heard from William and Mary first, so she went there, and she went two years

00:59:09.320 - 00:59:27.800

and got married. And then Helen graduated from school when we came back to—Al retired to Austin, and Helen was then a senior, junior or senior, in high school. And then she went to the University of Texas.

00:59:28.820 - 00:59:46.660

And then Melanie graduated there, and our third daughter in Austin, and she went to the University of Texas. And then our son, see he was born—oh, no, our fifth—oh, I had a baby, I forgot about that, in Goldsboro.

00:59:48.280 - 01:00:01.220

Golly, Moses. Every place we went to I had a baby, it seemed to me. But anyway, yeah, I forgot about her, bless her heart. She was two or three years old when we,

01:00:01.600 - 01:00:16.240

when Al retired, when we were in Austin. And so she, well, let's see, our Jana married a boy she met at William & Mary. So he was a student there, so she worked for a year,

01:00:16.280 - 01:00:26.120

and she was one of those gals who wore the hoop skirts. Have you ever been to, if you've ever been to Williamsburg and been on those tours where she was one of those girls, She had to go to school for three months

01:00:26.220 - 01:00:42.720

to learn all about the colonial times that she hadn't learned in school. And so, then let me see. And then years, after 18 or 19 years of marriage,

01:00:42.840 - 01:00:50.740

she and her husband divorced. You're gonna go now? You're gonna go? Get up?

01:00:51.420 - 01:01:07.380

Do you need help? Can you cut that off just a moment? in college at the same time. But anyway, let's see. Then Tom went to university two years, our son, and boy, I turned around one day and he came home and said, "Well, I enlisted

01:01:07.560 - 01:01:26.520

in the Army." I said, "Army? How could you do that when both your parents were pilots?" But then he did apply for pilot school and was refused because he had been hit by a car at Clark Field and had a fractured skull, and they wouldn't take him.

01:01:28.040 - 01:01:41.920

And he wanted to be a helicopter pilot at Fort Hood. So he knew that, and then he married and had a little boy, and he decided he didn't want to keep, you know, he wanted to be home with his family.

01:01:42.060 - 01:01:50.360

So he got out, went back to school, and got his degree at the University of Texas. Thank goodness. And he has a nice job now,

01:01:50.380 - 01:02:00.180

Now he really travels all over the world. But they have three boys, and he's the oldest boys at the university now. Just goes on and on.

01:02:01.480 - 01:02:12.660

- Okay. When did you decide to move to San Antonio? - Oh, we lived in Austin 13 years, and a friend of mine had moved

01:02:12.920 - 01:02:23.180

from Austin to Wimberley, Texas. And oh, she just loved it so, so we came down and looked at it, and we decided, "Hey, that sounds like a good deal."

01:02:23.180 - 01:02:36.320

So we moved to Wimberley from Austin. And we lived there 11 years, and the last two years, we kept coming down to San Antonio to doctors for my husband, mainly.

01:02:39.060 - 01:02:50.300

And he said earlier, he said a few years before we moved here, "We oughta move to San Antonio. "We keep going to the doctor down there." and Wembley didn't even have a doctor.

01:02:50.980 - 01:03:00.900

But by the time we left, they had doctors and all kinds of things. But anyway, so the more I thought about it, and see, it was 50 miles here and then 50 back,

01:03:01.480 - 01:03:14.400

and two and three and four times a week we would come. So we decided we would move. So we had a friend who lived here in Royal Ridge, and we liked it.

01:03:15.980 - 01:03:23.360

So we decided we would. But my word, it was during that slump when you couldn't sell your house, and it took two years to sell our house.

01:03:24.500 - 01:03:42.900

And when we finally did, then we moved here. And we've been here for, going on 13 years now. And my children, we're here alone, just the two of us. And the nearest daughter's in Houston,

01:03:43.140 - 01:03:57.340

and the next nearest is in College Station. and then, oh, but our son is in Austin, but they're also involved in football, soccer, baseball. - Is your one son the only one that had a desire to fly?

01:03:58.480 - 01:04:10.960

- Yes, as a matter of fact, uh-huh, yeah. The girls never even mentioned it. In fact, years went by and I forgot I'd been in the Wasp. We never talked about it, or, you know,

01:04:11.060 - 01:04:19.560

I was so busy having babies or whatever. I am. [laughs] So, uh...

01:04:20.680 - 01:04:27.020

Hey, my t-shirt looks blue in there. You're not supposed to be looking at that. Oh, really?

01:04:27.960 - 01:04:35.840

You didn't tell me my hair was thin enough for all the in-- No, no, no, your hair's not thin enough. You look great. Are you to the end of your stand? Uh,

01:04:35.840 - 01:04:42.860

I got about-- yeah, I got about a minute. Want me to change takes? Yeah. Okay. 'Cause then we're gonna start on-- Okay. I mean there's more.

01:04:46.060 - 01:05:03.500

[BEEPING] Dorothy, could we pass on and let me ask you about when your brother was killed and about when they sent your body home?

01:05:03.800 - 01:05:13.480

How did that affect you? And what happened? Were you able to go to Arlington? - Yes, years later when they--

01:05:13.600 - 01:05:18.100

- When they brought him back. - So I'll tell about that. Okay. - That we wanna know.

01:05:18.280 - 01:05:31.160

- Okay. - What he was doing when he was killed. - Navigator on B-17, that's all I know, really. But there were survivors, three, I think, three men.

01:05:31.820 - 01:05:38.880

And the pilot was one, he lost his leg and part of his left arm. It was terrible, but-- - Are you rolling?

01:05:39.900 - 01:05:53.280

- Oh. Well, when I had the call about my brother and mother wanted me to come home and I said, "I just cannot because it meant too much to me to stay." And --

01:05:54.280 - 01:06:12.440

Could I ask you right there, why did it mean so much to you to stay? Because I wanted to stay and I thought I was really doing this for him to be proud of me to begin with, but I was real frightened, too. It was a traumatic time for me there that month.

01:06:12.780 - 01:06:35.560

It was bad. And he was buried in England, and then his body was brought home in 1948, I think. We had the two little girls then, and so Al and I drove to Washington, and they had the ceremony at Arlington.

01:06:35.740 - 01:06:58.940

It was lovely. was. And it was a hard time, believe you me, because I really loved my brothers to pieces. Were your other siblings there? Yeah, they were there. And we were all there. And that was the first time I'd seen my father

01:06:59.160 - 01:07:27.400

and a while. He had come up from Norfolk to go to the funeral. Can we back up to when they were divorced? How old were you? We were all grown, and they had been married 25 years. My father gave my mother a pretty hard time. So it was okay with all of us, really.

01:07:30.980 - 01:07:59.460

Have you seen your father since then? No. He died when I was waiting to go to Germany, and that was in '49. He was just 60. Then Then my mother died in 1980. We had—Al and I had moved mother and my godmother, Georgie, from Washington to Austin.

01:08:00.100 - 01:08:22.880

They had a cute apartment there, and we watched after them and everything. Then mother was the baby in that family, and she died in 1980. my Aunt Georgie died the next eleven months later. That was hard to give up. What do you feel is the legacy of the WASP?

01:08:24.320 - 01:08:52.240

Well, I hope that people in the future will hear about us and maybe this, of course, will what you're doing now, making all these recordings. And I hope they realize that we did just as well as the boys did as far as the flying. We flew everything they had in those days.

01:08:53.720 - 01:09:16.660

And I think our record was certainly equivalent to the males' pilots as far as being able to fly a plane. I never—and I even almost hoped that we could go overseas and fly combat. It wouldn't have bothered me a bit because I figured I was as good a pilot as a male,

01:09:19.080 - 01:09:39.260

a boy flying a plane. I had the same teaching, the same learnings that they did, the same instruction. What is the one thing in your life that you're the most proud of? I guess my family, really.

01:09:41.460 - 01:10:00.900

I'm very proud to have been a Wasp. Believe me, it was just great. But I'm really proud of my husband and my children. When your grandchildren watch this, or your great-grandchildren, fifty years from now,

01:10:02.540 - 01:10:34.920

what do you hope they will learn from your life? I hope they'll learn independence and a lot of things, I think. a super period we've lived in and I hope theirs will be as well as good. And I think they'll love learning about what we did too.

01:10:42.480 - 01:10:59.700

Are you out of tape yet? No. I want to know, what do you think, having been a WASP, how did that change your life? Oh, I think it made me grow up a lot. I was very, very innocent. And, you know, we lived

01:10:59.780 - 01:11:22.760

at home until the day we married, usually, except that I had gone into the WASP. Otherwise, I'd have been at home, you know. And I think I learned a certain amount of independence make a living on my own, you know, if I had to. But, uh...

01:11:25.560 - 01:11:50.400

Is there anything that you would like to have recorded with your history that you haven't told us? Anything you'd like to say to your children or to your grandchildren? Well, I just hope that they're clean, honest, and dependable, and have good lives. And you have to account for your actions, so watch it.

01:11:53.020 - 01:12:05.860

[Laughter] - Okay, let me, can I ask you, Dorothy? - Yeah. - In 19, whenever you started to learn to fly,

01:12:06.700 - 01:12:12.440

why in the world did you learn to fly in the first place? What made you think you could, you were a girl. - Yeah. - Were there any other girls?

01:12:14.620 - 01:12:25.020

- I don't know. I just, when we heard about the WASP, my friend and I decided that was the thing to do. And I just figured I could do it.

01:12:25.120 - 01:12:41.740

I don't know. I didn't, I didn't think, I didn't feel superior or anything, but I just thought, "Well, if they can do it, I can do it." Although, when I was in training, I was -- believe me, I did exactly what I was told. I was so grateful

01:12:41.840 - 01:12:59.280

to be there, you know. And so I never did anything drastic myself, so. What was the scariest thing that ever happened to you? Oh, I think when that smoke started coming up in the cockpit of the plane, that was really something.

01:13:00.980 - 01:13:10.860

Really, I was frightened that time. I thought, "I hear I've gone through all this training and about to graduate and I'm going to be blown up." But it didn't happen.

01:13:13.330 - 01:13:30.260

What was the most challenging thing? Oh, I guess flying instruments. That was pretty—I thought, "Gee, I never learned that Morse code and all that stuff." and all that stuff. Now I can't even remember what we did, but I know it was a challenge.

01:13:33.840 - 01:13:46.800

It was. Kelly: Now tell me about the backseat of the Mercury, or were you in the backseat? It was a two-door car, and we always sat in the front seat. Back seat.

01:13:49.660 - 01:14:04.420

We were very good, very good. We danced at the Eddie's Covered Wagon, and we ate there, and we saw all our friends. Then we'd go out in the car and kiss a little while, and then we'd go back to the base and kiss a little while more.

01:14:04.980 - 01:14:17.060

That was it. Did you have a favorite song? Oh, all the Glenn Miller songs and the Tommy Dorseys and the Artie Shaw, all that. Gee, we danced a lot.

01:14:18.580 - 01:14:27.640

Miles and miles and dancing. Let's see. What's your favorite word? My favorite word?

01:14:29.160 - 01:14:47.380

I don't know if I have a favorite word. Twerp. Oh, when I'm on the highway and people don't get out of my way, I say, "You twerp, get the road." One time my granddaughter said that, and it was so funny. She said, "That

01:14:48.800 - 01:15:09.920

twerp." I figure that's better than SOB or something, don't you? If you could have had another profession other than an Air Force wife, what would it have been? I suppose I ended up a secretary, taking shorthand dictation.

01:15:10.280 - 01:15:21.160

Would you run the company? Oh, would I have? If I'm sure if I could have worked my way up. Of course, I think I could have.

01:15:23.040 - 01:15:29.840

Hey, last year I refinanced this house. I didn't dream I could do that. And what else? I bought a new car.

01:15:29.880 - 01:15:43.320

I didn't dream I could do that. Al had always done those things. So, I've done more than I thought I could, I guess. - Let's see, I'm just trying to think of all those

01:15:43.540 - 01:15:51.820

interesting things that make you different from somebody else. - Well, I must look like an awful lot of people because people say, oh, you look just like

01:15:51.880 - 01:16:01.420

your name should be Betty. Now, why is that? (laughing) - How many grandchildren do you have?

01:16:01.700 - 01:16:14.480

- We have 14. And four great-grandsons and one great-granddaughter who was just born in January. You've got a lot to be proud of. Yes. Uh-huh.

01:16:16.120 - 01:16:30.740

They're all pretty good too, by Jove. Okay. I've been thinking, did you go through, did you get a chance to look at your list there? and I'll stop for a second.

01:16:30.740 - 01:16:53.900

When you speak on the WASP, what your message is when you talk about the WASP to an audience? Who have you talked to? We have talked to, oh gosh, we've been to Fort Sam Officer's Club twice. We've talked to, at Fort Sam also, at the San Antonio Women's Breakfast Club,

01:16:53.940 - 01:17:04.340

but they also had their husbands. They were quite a big crowd. And then we've talked at Hangar 9 out here at Kelly, I think it is.

01:17:05.140 - 01:17:14.920

There were over 120 flight surgeons from all over the United States. - What did you tell them? - And tell them, Mark, just what we did,

01:17:15.040 - 01:17:26.020

just what we did in the WASP. And then we ask if there are any questions. And I've always been able, between us, we've always been able to answer questions

01:17:26.260 - 01:17:36.600

until one of the flight surgeons said, "Well, what did you do when the girls got pregnant "and weren't supposed to be?" And it befuddled me because nobody ever got pregnant

01:17:36.700 - 01:17:46.660

that I knew except the girl in my bay in training. And she supposedly said she was married, but I kind of doubt, looking back on it, I don't think she was married at the time.

01:17:49.380 - 01:18:05.520

So I said, "Gee, I'll let one of them answer that." Did you know any wives that was killed? Well, two from my class were killed. One was afterwards.

01:18:07.610 - 01:18:15.420

In fact, it's in this... No, it's not in the newsletter. It's in that... I don't know what it is, but anyway... But nobody while you were in training?

01:18:15.800 - 01:18:35.520

While you were in training where there was no... - Oh, none in my class, no. No, afterwards though, a couple were killed in a plane. But, yeah, and how.

01:18:37.160 - 01:18:42.640

- Okay. - Lucky. Okay. - All right. - Thank you. Thing, because if I had a date,

01:18:42.680 - 01:18:52.540

I'd twirl up my hair with bobby pins and cover it with this, see? - Barbie went with us and she rented a van and we drove down to Williamsburg.

01:18:53.120 - 01:19:00.580

And I knew the cottage would be gone because that's been 50 some years ago. We got there and that was it. - Went to North Carolina and graduated

01:19:00.680 - 01:19:11.960

and then went to law school there. - Otherwise we don't have pictures, individual pictures. - Oh, did you get the uniform when you finished already? Okay.

01:19:15.060 - 01:19:23.880

I need to go up some more, 'cause that's a safe line. - But you were like I was in training. I never doubted what they told me. - No, sir. - I did exactly.

01:19:24.640 - 01:19:35.040

And when we talked to Marianne Hodgson, she was absolutely-- - Nancy Perry. But now that's been several years ago, yeah. But now I don't think she, at that time,

01:19:35.160 - 01:19:45.620

could get what you're talking about, a page or-- - Well, we don't-- - From them about their flight and the day that they were shot down. because he was like, "Oh, I didn't talk to my kids

01:19:45.700 - 01:19:57.580

"about the wasp like you did." Bill didn't talk about his war experiences. And so, we took her to their library, looking for information, and couldn't find it.

01:19:58.360 - 01:20:06.740

And she came home and said, "There is nothing. "There's nothing. "I've looked in encyclopedias, I've looked in history books." - This was just three years ago?

01:20:06.760 - 01:20:09.400

- Three years ago. - No, it's from weeks. - "There is nothing." - Thanks a lot.

01:20:09.420 - 01:20:16.500

- And she said, "That's wrong. I'm going to do something about it. I said, oh Nancy, don't bother. I said, I don't care.

01:20:16.500 - 01:20:20.640

I said, it's over. I did it. It's over. - Yeah, that's why I tell.

01:20:20.640 - 01:20:29.520

- I don't care. And she looked at me and she said, I care. And that's long. She said, the fact that you're not in any of the history

01:20:29.640 - 01:20:37.560

books, World War-- do we have big World War II history books at home? There's not even a mention of the Wasp in there. And she said, I'm going to do something about it.

01:20:37.940 - 01:20:44.520

So that's when she started trying to do some research and to start doing something.