00:00:00.000 - 00:00:05.200

I'm sure you do. Well, Doris, I have one rule. There's a hard and fast rule here for this. Okay.

00:00:06.100 - 00:00:10.820

You're in charge. [laughter] That's the wrong rule. [laughter]

00:00:11.680 - 00:00:18.060

If you want to stop, we'll stop. Okay. You need to get up and-- I meant to ask you, would you either like a glass of water or anything?

00:00:18.060 - 00:00:23.300

Oh, no, we're fine. No, we're fine. Thank you, though. But at any time, if your throat gets dry or something--

00:00:23.300 - 00:00:34.500

I'm a roll-in. Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Doris Hamacher. She was a WASP class 44-2.

00:00:35.200 - 00:01:03.260

We are in her home in Melbourne, Florida. Today is the 25th of April, 2003. The videographer is Nancy Parrish. All right, Doris, if you will just start off. If you'll tell us your full name and when and where you were born. Doris Jean Elkington, and I was born in Highland Park, Michigan on February 10, 1921.

00:01:05.440 - 00:01:18.560

I was in a family of four, a sister and two brothers, and I was the only one that was a pilot. Doris, tell me about your mom. What was your mom like?

00:01:21.480 - 00:01:35.600

good mother, but you know she never learned to drive a car. I think of that often when I think that here I flew airplanes and she couldn't even drive a car. What kind of car did you have when you were small?

00:01:35.690 - 00:01:58.280

My father worked at Ford Motor Company, so of course we had Ford's Albs. He loved his car like a baby. He told us that he paid a thousand dollars for that automobile and he wasn't going to let any damn fool kid tear it up for him.

00:02:00.520 - 00:02:20.260

So we didn't get to drive it very much. When you were small, did your mother have outside activities other than the children? Just with the Eastern Star. would attend meetings for that, but other than that, she would come to school, PTA meetings,

00:02:20.940 - 00:02:45.320

but nothing else. She had really very few friends because she was a mother and kept her house and did not socialize much. When you were small, did you live in town? Yes, Highland Park is a part of Detroit, and it's right in the city.

00:02:46.800 - 00:03:08.520

So we had bus service and streetcar service and that sort of thing. Tell me about your dad. What was your dad like? As you can tell, what I just said, he was hard with us a lot, but he took after his own father.

00:03:08.880 - 00:03:29.520

His own father was really tough, but he loved all of us and did his best to take good care of us. He worked as a maintenance person in Ford Motor Company for thirty-five years. Before that, he had been a fireman with the Grand Trunk Railroad.

00:03:31.740 - 00:03:55.280

He and his brother ran away from home when he was sixteen out to Washington State. He said that was the first time he had ever seen—I think the last time, too—somebody hanging from a rope from a tree, and it really made him ill. Was that a hate crime, do you suppose?

00:03:55.920 - 00:04:15.540

Well, this was the Wild West at that point, because he was born in 1886, or 1888, '86, I think. And so it was when he was 16, that would have been just over the turn of the century. So he and his brother had themselves quite a time.

00:04:17.100 - 00:04:31.820

Tell me about your siblings. I have a sister and two brothers, or did have two brothers. My youngest brother passed away recently. My sister lives in California.

00:04:33.710 - 00:04:54.700

She and her husband, she still has her husband. They live in a retirement community. She worked for Chrysler's, the same as I did growing up. She was a mother and a housewife.

00:04:55.030 - 00:05:04.940

She never worked after being in Chrysler's. Kelly: Where are you in the—? Litz: I'm the second one. She was the oldest one.

00:05:06.980 - 00:05:28.780

My brother, who was just younger than I am, was just here. He and his wife came down and spent three months in an apartment near here, so we had a good time to see them. He went into the Army as an enlisted person, and he was over in Holland, in Germany, and

00:05:28.820 - 00:05:50.540

he was on reconnaissance. He drove a jeep, and when they wanted to see what was ahead, they would send he and his group out and he'd drive like a bat and see what was there and then come back. So when he came home, he still drove like a bat.

00:05:51.320 - 00:06:26.320

And my dad with his thousand-dollar automobile, it was Bastion in the front and Bastion in the back in short order. But he worked in marketing sales in a company that did rubber things, with rubber for factories. Right now he lives up at Torch Lake, Michigan, on the lake, and they have winterized it for

00:06:27.120 - 00:06:51.260

permanent home. My youngest brother was a geologist. He went to Wayne University in Detroit and had his master's in geology. He spent quite a few years up in Canada and traveled around in the West.

00:06:52.100 - 00:07:14.100

He lived in Denver when he passed away. What's the earliest type of car that you remember? Ford what? Probably a Model A. That was around 1932, I think. Then when they would put out a new car, would your dad get a different car?

00:07:14.720 - 00:07:32.880

No, he would get one about every four years. He had a man who sold them down in Toledo, Ohio. So he would call him and let him know, or write him, let him know that he wanted a new car and what he wanted. So when the man got what he wanted, he'd bring it up to him.

00:07:34.760 - 00:07:50.340

But it was about every four years. Tell me about your grandparents. Did they live close? No. Well, my mother's mother did. My mother's father passed away when she was very young.

00:07:53.040 - 00:08:17.960

My grandmother was born on a trip in a covered wagon. They got as far as Missouri from Michigan. She was, I think, the fifth child, and she was born on the covered wagon trip. I think they probably found it was too much, and they turned around then and came home.

00:08:19.060 - 00:08:26.960

So they came back to Michigan. Where were they going? Do you know? West, just west, as far as I knew.

00:08:30.120 - 00:08:46.840

I have asked my sister to write down all she remembers about her family, my grandmother's family. She had, I think there were nine of them. They all had big families to farm.

00:08:49.300 - 00:09:07.900

When you were growing up, did she live close to you? Yes, in fact, most of the time she lived with us. And then she would go and live with my uncle for some of the year. But she had an old place up near Port Yern where we went for the summers.

00:09:08.820 - 00:09:35.220

And it was two acres, so to make it pay, my dad plowed it up and we had a garden. And we were to keep the bugs and the weeds out, so we would stay with my grandmother up there. And when the thrashers came around in the early fall, they let all of us kids in the

00:09:35.220 - 00:09:50.760

area, carry the grain to the granary. When they were all finished, it was tradition that I would get on top of the straw pile and do a flip off the top. They all waited until I did that.

00:09:53.060 - 00:10:00.880

I enjoyed being up in the country. Kelly: You would go there every summer? Ruth: Every summer. My grandmother stayed up there every summer.

00:10:01.860 - 00:10:16.880

Some of us would stay with her, at least one. Did they have a local swimming hole? Oh, yes. Yes, it was a river, creek, and it wasn't very deep, but we would go swimming.

00:10:24.640 - 00:10:46.200

My father's father came from England. In fact, both of his parents did, but they were not married at the time. He came to this country, and his brother went to Australia. So that's why I claim Steve Elkington, the golfer, as a relative, because Steve is from

00:10:47.200 - 00:11:16.080

Australia. He came and they settled in Wisconsin, and he had a big farm, and they had nine children. He became a blacksmith, so he carried on that business until he retired. Just recently, my sister sent me his diary that my father found when he went on one of

00:11:16.100 - 00:11:35.300

the trips to Wisconsin. It's amusing to me because the first item in every day was, "I worked eight hours today," or, "I worked ten hours today." It was very short, but he put something in for every day, which I thought was very interesting.

00:11:35.380 - 00:11:51.500

Kelly: Did you get to visit those grandparents often? Lowdermilk Honstein: Yes, they lived in Baraboo, Wisconsin. At that point, my father did not have a vacation from Ford's, but he was allowed to take two weeks off without pay.

00:11:53.240 - 00:12:16.520

We would drive from Detroit to Baraboo. Sometimes we'd camp. We had a trailer with a tent, and we'd camp on the way. By the time I went to visit Bill, my husband, at the Naval Academy, I had never been further

00:12:16.740 - 00:12:41.080

away from Detroit than Wisconsin. That was in Ohio and Indiana up to Wisconsin. We had twenty-one grandchildren on that side of the family, so some of them are still alive. In looking back, what did you learn from your grandparents?

00:12:44.480 - 00:13:00.860

What lessons do you feel that you learned? Ruth: Well, I'm a quilter, and I learned that from my mother's mother. She quilted. She would come to stay with us during the wintertime, and she would have her quilt up

00:13:00.900 - 00:13:17.320

on the frames. And she would quilt somebody's quilt for five dollars, and it would take her about six weeks. And people would bring her the top, and she would get the filling in the back and quilt

00:13:17.380 - 00:13:34.700

it for five dollars. To me, that's unbelievable at this point, because when I quilt, it takes me about a year to quilt a quilt. Let me ask you, when you were growing up, what was a Christmas like at your home?

00:13:36.140 - 00:13:47.580

We always had a tree. We usually get two gifts. One was a bit of clothing, like a nightgown or a bathrobe or a pair of slippers, and the other would be a toy.

00:13:49.160 - 00:14:13.300

Maybe a doll, or if we had a doll, my mother or grandmother would make clothes for it. But we'd usually get two gifts. And when I've seen my own grandchildren at Christmas and see the way that they are pelted with gifts, it's amazing to me.

00:14:13.780 - 00:14:18.000

Right. Would you have a Christmas tree? Oh, yes. Always a tree.

00:14:18.480 - 00:14:32.120

Would you go out and cut it down? No. But my father would wait until the last day, Christmas Eve, and then go and bargain with the people for a tree.

00:14:33.160 - 00:14:44.920

So we'd always get it on Christmas Eve. And then if it wasn't shaped properly, he'd get a bigger one and cut it off and then fill it in. He'd put drill holes in it to fill in the branches.

00:14:45.990 - 00:15:02.740

Kelly: And then would you children decorate it? Oh yes, he would put the lights on and then we would all decorate it. We all look forward to that. QF: And then on Christmas morning, would you come in one at a time or would you open your

00:15:02.840 - 00:15:20.020

gifts together? AQ: We had to wait until my parents were up. We could not go in hog wild, so we would wait until they got up. When we were a little older, we had to wait until breakfast was over, and we hated that.

00:15:21.490 - 00:15:31.420

What was Christmas dinner like? Would your grandparents come? Well, of course, my grandmother always lived with us, so she would be there, but my other grandparents.

00:15:32.200 - 00:15:42.040

I don't ever remember them coming to Michigan. I know they did, but I don't ever remember them coming to Michigan. Was your grandmother a good cook? Yes.

00:15:42.760 - 00:16:00.880

And well, when we stayed with her up in the country, she did all the cooking on a kerosene stove and we had no plumbing. We had a pump. So it was different.

00:16:02.500 - 00:16:17.180

During the Christmas season, did you attend any celebrations of Christmas? For example, pageants or anything to celebrate that way? Not unless there were some at school. If there were some at school there.

00:16:18.260 - 00:16:30.840

Let me ask you, when you started first grade, were you close enough to walk? How did you get to school? We walked always. We didn't know what a school bus was.

00:16:32.800 - 00:16:56.300

But we had at least two streets that were heavily trafficked for that time in our lives. They had policemen that took the children across those two streets. And then the third street, they had a tunnel. So we would go down under the tunnel to get to the school.

00:16:57.580 - 00:17:03.460

What did you do for lunch? Did you take a lunch? No. And I always came home for lunch.

00:17:05.120 - 00:17:23.020

And we walked, it was a good—well, I do not know how to judge it. It was not a short distance, because the blocks were like thirty-eight houses each in a block. So they were long blocks. But we always had enough time to come home.

00:17:24.220 - 00:17:41.680

I ate lunch at school. They had cafeterias in all the schools, but I ate there maybe two or three times a year. That's all. In elementary school, do you recall any teachers that might have had an influence on you?

00:17:43.380 - 00:18:06.340

I remember my first grade teacher was named Miss Singlaub, and she was a sweet lady. I enjoyed all my teachers. When you finished elementary school, then to go into middle school or did it go directly into high school at seventh grade?

00:18:06.900 - 00:18:28.620

Yes, from our elementary school we went through the seventh grade and then we went to junior high. They had one building that was a block long that was junior and senior high. And also, junior college was all in that one building, which was divided off in senior

00:18:28.620 - 00:18:42.740

high and junior high and junior college. So I went there all the way through to two years of junior college. And was that close enough for you to walk? Yes, that was closer than the elementary school.

00:18:45.180 - 00:19:07.500

When you were in junior high or even on into high school, what was your ambition? Well, every time an airplane went over, I couldn't help but look and think that that would be wonderful to do. My father worked for Ford Motor Company, and Henry Ford was building a machine down in

00:19:07.500 - 00:19:22.920

Dearborn, Michigan. So my father was interested enough to take the whole family down there. And that's a Ford tri-motor, and so we saw it when it was being built. So Hal always liked to claim that as my airplane.

00:19:23.640 - 00:19:40.300

Never flew it, but—and they have one in the Navy Museum in Pensacola. So it's kind of nice to see it. How old were you when that happened? Maybe eight, ten, twelve, maybe.

00:19:43.500 - 00:19:50.720

But Dad was fascinated with it, and so was I. Kelly: Were there other children? McMillan: Not as much. I don't think not as much.

00:19:54.530 - 00:20:12.080

Kelly: In junior high and high school, did you have outside activities? McMillan: I played the clarinet, and I played in the band. We had a marching band, and so we'd play it at the football games, and we'd play in the J.L. Hudson Thanksgiving Day Parade.

00:20:14.340 - 00:20:21.460

We'd always have a concert during the year. Did you have uniforms? Yes. What was your uniform like?

00:20:22.840 - 00:20:38.140

Did you have slacks? Well, we were not allowed to wear slacks. I had a navy blue skirt, and I was in the last row in the marching band. I was way in the back.

00:20:39.220 - 00:20:59.160

When we went anyplace, we would march from the school to the football field or whatever. The band director would drive his car behind us to kind of protect us and make sure we were doing all right. He would sit back there and laugh, because this other girl and I had skirts that were

00:20:58.900 - 00:21:40.160

tight, that's the kind of skirts they had. And so every few steps we'd have to do a little jog to catch up with the rest of them. But I did that all the way through school. Did your high school compete in band?

00:21:40.940 - 00:22:03.740

No, but I was on the swimming team, which we competed with other schools in Detroit. What kind of a swimmer were you? I did crawl and also I did diving. I really enjoyed that.

00:22:05.740 - 00:22:21.840

We had swimming team practice every week, and that's why I still love aquascise here. What was your favorite subject in high school? I think math. I enjoyed math.

00:22:26.620 - 00:22:48.260

My husband is very good in math, too, but I enjoyed that one. When you were in high school, what were you aiming toward when you got out of high school? Ruth: Well, let me tell you. The junior college there, of course, had a two-year college, and the tuition was $35

00:22:48.800 - 00:23:10.900

a semester, plus whatever else you had. I worked at Sears on Thursday night, Friday night, and all day Saturday, and I made a total of about seven dollars. So I could save that up and pay for my tuition.

00:23:12.340 - 00:23:37.620

But here again my father, which was understandable at that period of time, said that he just didn't see how he could put all of us through college as much as he'd like to. He figured that the boys needed it more than the girls did. So any college that we got was on our own.

00:23:39.300 - 00:24:01.500

My sister and I both got two years college, and then later on I went back and got another semester or two semesters, but I never did graduate from college. But I feel like the WASP was a good college education. Right. Doris, do you feel that that was the mindset of that day, that the boys deserved

00:24:01.580 - 00:24:14.540

the education? Right, exactly. I was determined with our children that wasn't going to happen, and of course it didn't. When you were in high school, what was your social life like?

00:24:16.810 - 00:24:29.320

Did you meet anybody special? Laney: No, I dated some, not often. My father was strict about that, too. Kelly: How would you be disciplined when you were a bad girl?

00:24:29.950 - 00:24:56.380

Laney: My dad had a black stick, and at the dinner table he had it here or under here. And if we didn't eat properly, he would. And that black stick was black because he used it to mix paint. So when we got older, he didn't use that, but we did growing up.

00:24:58.140 - 00:25:04.800

Did you have a high school prom? Yes. Did you attend? Yes, and I don't remember who I went with.

00:25:04.940 - 00:25:10.640

Isn't that funny? Okay. school graduation, did you have caps and gowns? Yes.

00:25:10.890 - 00:25:22.320

How large was your high school? Gosh, I think three hundred and some graduates. It was a big high school. What kind of student were you?

00:25:24.080 - 00:25:40.240

I could have been a better one. Were your parents pretty strict about your studying? Yes, yes. I know I could have done better, but I enjoyed the swimming and the band and other social

00:25:40.400 - 00:25:54.600

things. So I was a B student. Were your mom and dad involved in any of your children's activities in high school? No.

00:25:55.480 - 00:26:05.900

Did they come to your concerts? Oh, yes. They were not Brownie leaders or anything like that, like I was. So...

00:26:06.040 - 00:26:23.220

Right. In school, did you belong to any other clubs, any of the clubs, except the band? No, I did not. We practiced, the band practiced almost every night after school, or every afternoon after

00:26:23.380 - 00:26:33.180

school. And we practiced marching plus playing. Do you still have your horn? No, my mother and dad sold it after I left for the WASPs.

00:26:34.670 - 00:26:59.480

So. Once you were in junior college, when did you actually start being involved with airplanes? Well, the second year I was in college, all of a sudden I found out that the principal had this CPT program, civilian pilot training.

00:27:00.620 - 00:27:23.520

And Bill, that's where I met my husband, and he and I had planned to take the course the next semester, which was in the fall, because we didn't know about it and the time to take the one in the spring. So we had both planned to take it, and in the meantime, in the summer, he had an appointment

00:27:23.520 - 00:27:39.800

to the Naval Academy, so he left. So that left me to take care of the flying. So when we started in the fall, they had two classes, two classes of ten, and they allowed one woman for each class.

00:27:40.140 - 00:28:00.840

So there were two gals and eighteen fellas. And the other gal didn't even know how to drive a car, but she learned to fly an airplane. And she became a nurse and she joined the Army as a nurse. Let me go back and ask you when you met Bill.

00:28:01.020 - 00:28:20.240

Was that after high school? Yes, it was in junior college. His family lived in the Detroit area and his mother moved into an apartment in Highland Park so that Bill could go to Highland Park Junior College.

00:28:21.400 - 00:28:33.380

So you started dating him in junior college. What attracted you to him? Well, I do not know. Neither one of us had any money, so we did not go very far.

00:28:37.480 - 00:28:54.800

But we got along nicely together, and he says I set it up so I would have a locker with him. So I guess maybe I did. In the civilian pilot training program, did you have to pay for that extra?

00:28:56.360 - 00:29:17.180

Yes. The extra was $25, if you can believe. We had to pay $10 for insurance and I think $10 for ground school. The teachers at junior college taught the ground school at night so that we could have

00:29:17.180 - 00:29:26.660

it right there. And, the other five dollars, I don't remember, but it was twenty-five dollars that we had to pay. And, I don't know what I was thinking about.

00:29:27.320 - 00:29:42.140

I guess I thought my dad would let me have the car, because the airport was about twenty-five miles. It was out towards Mount Clements. I thought, "Now, how am I going to get there?"

00:29:42.140 - 00:29:57.960

When he said, "No, you're not going to take the car." Well fortunately, all the fellows let me ride with them. So I would go out early while they flew and then maybe somebody else would take me home. So I managed.

00:29:58.620 - 00:30:22.100

But when it came to the final flight test, they had it out at where the Detroit Municipal Airport is now, and no one else was going. I told my mother, "Mom, I've got to get out there. I've got the appointment, and I'm the only one going."

00:30:22.240 - 00:30:39.120

Trying to talk my mother into something was really something. Finally, she said, "Okay, but you be careful." So I drove very carefully out and took my test, and I passed it. I was so thrilled that I'd passed my test.

00:30:39.700 - 00:30:53.640

I came home, and in the meantime, my dad had come home from work. I put the car in the garage and went in the kitchen, and my mother said, "Go tell him." Not even, "Did you pass?" You know, nothing.

00:30:54.180 - 00:31:12.720

She said, "Go tell him." So I went in and I said, "Dad, I had the car." And he said, "I kind of thought you did." So that was my final, and I was so tickled that I had passed.

00:31:15.120 - 00:31:30.400

What did your mom and dad think about your learning to fly? Well, there again, I came home with the application. Boy, I was thrilled to death that I could get in. All I needed was this application.

00:31:31.010 - 00:31:43.800

I was not twenty-one yet. And I came home at lunch and I talked to my mother and talked to her and talked to her and talked to her and talked to her. Finally, she signed it.

00:31:44.740 - 00:31:57.720

And I took it back and I was so happy. My dad came home that day and night and I guess he ripped into my mother and my mother said, "You get that paper back." And I said, "Uh-uh."

00:31:58.380 - 00:32:19.200

I said, "I'm going to go flying." So, when I went to the WASP, they took me down to the train. My boss came down to see me off, too, from Chrysler's. My dad told him that I was the only one in the family that had guts enough to do anything

00:32:19.280 - 00:32:31.900

like that. So they were both proud of me. Did you know any other girls who were flying? I joined the Civil Air Patrol after I finished with the CPT.

00:32:32.940 - 00:33:02.540

I did not have an airplane, but we met. She was a laboratory technician, so she had flown quite a bit. Just before we were to go to the WASP, she quit her job and moved out of her apartment. She moved in with us for the few days before we left.

00:33:03.340 - 00:33:24.180

But let me tell you about how I got my orders. When we heard about the WASP, we inquired and they told us to go to Chicago to talk to Ethel Sheehy for an interview, which this girl and I did. We took the train and went to Chicago.

00:33:26.780 - 00:33:49.200

So we had that over and they told us to get a physical at an Army base. Well, the closest one to us was Mount Clemens, and that is Suffrage Field. So this gal fortunately had a car, and we both went out and had our physical. Well, she got her orders, I didn't.

00:33:50.120 - 00:33:56.780

And I called Washington. They hadn't received my physical. I called Mount Clemens. Oh yes, they sent it.

00:33:57.300 - 00:34:20.640

And I think this went on for a couple of weeks. And I was getting panicky because my girlfriend was going to leave. So she took me out to Selfridge Field and I got a copy of my physical. I came back and got on a bus and went downtown and got on a train and took a coach train

00:34:20.800 - 00:34:41.280

to Washington, D.C. I got in in the morning and I took a cab to the Pentagon. I took my physical and I handed it to them and they handed me my orders. I left and came back and went back on the train, and I came back to Detroit.

00:34:42.100 - 00:34:57.900

So I had my orders. I was determined. That's determination. Let me back up and ask you, what was the first airplane that you flew?

00:34:58.180 - 00:35:07.000

Piper Cub. Do you recall your solo? Oh, yes. I told you that there were eighteen fellows and two girls.

00:35:07.700 - 00:35:26.320

Well, we had a couple of instructors, not just one. But the fellow that lived across the street from me, I don't know, we were kind of competition. I told my instructor that I wanted to solo first. I wanted to beat him.

00:35:27.480 - 00:35:43.740

Well, I didn't. He let him solo first. But my instructor weighed 220 pounds, and he rode in the front of the cub. The adjustment for the cub was in the front seat.

00:35:44.560 - 00:36:00.360

Well, he got out of the front seat and said, "Go ahead." So I took off, and of course, the nose popped up like this. I came around like I had before, and I went to land, and the nose was popped up, and I was floating all the way across the field.

00:36:01.100 - 00:36:17.480

So I pulled up and went around again and I went way back and came in and landed. And after I landed, then I got up and changed the settings so that the nose wouldn't fly up. But I always thought, "Why didn't he do that?"

00:36:17.480 - 00:36:34.900

Because he was sitting in the front seat. But anyway, I soloed and I was really pleased. After I got my license, Bill came home on leave and his mother told him, "Don't you dare fly with her."

00:36:35.580 - 00:36:52.920

He already had. I had taken him up and he was my first passenger. It really kind of frightened me because I wanted to make sure everything went all right. But they took the stick out in the front seat where he was, so he couldn't help me if

00:36:52.920 - 00:37:09.140

I needed him, but we went. In the meantime, had he gotten interested in flying? Well, he was interested in flying, but at the Naval Academy at that point, they did not have any program until you graduated.

00:37:12.480 - 00:37:31.480

When he graduated, he was sent to the Mediterranean to a ship, and it had been hit before he got to it. They brought it back to Philadelphia. In the meantime, I had gone into WASP.

00:37:33.660 - 00:37:55.180

He came down on Christmas, and we became engaged. He came down to see me. Then he went back to Philadelphia and he got orders to the Pacific. He came down on the first of February, and he was on travel time to the West Coast.

00:37:57.040 - 00:38:06.300

We were having dinner. I got time off to go and have dinner with him. And he said, "Let's get married tonight." My eyebrows went up.

00:38:08.960 - 00:38:28.680

This lady in Sweetwater, Texas, Mrs. Wetzel, was a jewel. She kind of adopted a few of us at the USO. So I called her, and she got the county clerk to come back to the city hall and give us a license.

00:38:30.960 - 00:38:48.080

The only one that needed a health certificate was Bill. And, of course, he had all of his health forms with him with the changing station. So that worked out good. And then we went back to the—I called the Presbyterian Church, and both the minister

00:38:48.240 - 00:39:06.040

and his wife were in bed with the flu. So I told this Mrs. Wetzel, who called her church, the Methodist Church, and the minister "Well, we're having a duck dinner in the basement right now, and all the people want to come."

00:39:06.280 - 00:39:33.460

So Bill and I went out to Avenger Field, and I got changed and got all set. I asked permission for my flight to come to the wedding, and they gave the permission. So all the gals were flurrying around. But I had a hat on, I do not know who it belonged to, a little white hat, and I had a fur coat.

00:39:33.560 - 00:39:54.060

I had no idea who that belonged to. And I had some flowers, and a gal had been married that day, and she was having dinner in the mess hall, so she gave me her flowers. So I had everything I needed, and we went back and we had a church full of people.

00:39:56.840 - 00:40:01.300

We were married about nine o'clock. Who gave you a wake? Well, nobody, I guess. Nobody, okay.

00:40:01.680 - 00:40:13.420

But, it was nine o'clock at night, we were married. And then where did you spend your honeymoon that night? Well, Blue Bonnet Hotel. He stayed in the hotel while I went out and flew.

00:40:14.020 - 00:40:25.960

He was able to stay three days, and I went out and flew and had ground school and PE and the whole thing. And then I could spend the nights in the Blue Bonnet. Then he left and went to the Pacific.

00:40:26.850 - 00:40:32.180

You didn't get any demerits, huh? No. Okay. Nancy's got a changed tape.

00:40:32.360 - 00:40:38.100

Oh, that's a wonderful story. Wow. Well, I'll tell you a little more. Okay, yeah.

00:40:38.660 - 00:40:42.440

Wait until she gets it. I've got a changed tape. It's a tape changed. Are you okay?

00:40:42.560 - 00:40:55.280

Do you need some water? Do you know Wanda Langley? She is an author of a book about the WASP, and in fact about our class. But she lives in San Angelo, Texas.

00:40:57.920 - 00:41:18.460

She wrote an article about our wedding, and I took it up to the Sweetwater paper. So the lady who was the editor of the paper asked me to send her some photographs of both when I was flying and now. So I did.

00:41:19.840 - 00:41:41.140

It was published, I think, last Sunday. Wanda is sending me some copies. I was hoping I would be here for you when you came. Mrs. Wetzel's son I met, he was in the Navy at that point when we were in the WASP.

00:41:42.640 - 00:42:03.600

He was home on leave, so I met him just that one time. So when we were in Sweetwater for the convention reunion, I called him and he did not remember me. But Wanda said that he has sugar diabetes and he is blind.

00:42:05.500 - 00:42:10.720

So that is a shame. Kelly: Right. Do you recall the pastor's name that married you? Reed: No.

00:42:11.800 - 00:42:38.240

I would probably have it someplace, but I do not remember. Let me go back then and ask you about when you got your orders to go to Sweetwater. How did you get from Michigan to Sweetwater? By train, and we paid our own way, as you probably know.

00:42:39.150 - 00:42:53.100

We all paid our own way. I went coach, which meant that I slept sitting up. In fact, I did not even have a seat. I had my suitcase, which I sat on, backed by the lavatories.

00:42:53.880 - 00:43:10.580

That is where I was sitting for quite a ways on the trip. But when we got on the train at Dallas, it seemed like it took forever to get across Texas. Kelly: So you came from Michigan down to Dallas and then went across.

00:43:11.240 - 00:43:29.420

They stopped at every crossroads, and we had the windows up because there was no air conditioning, and it was hot. I met a couple of other gals who were coming for the same purpose, so that was good. Kelly: That was September?

00:43:29.680 - 00:43:44.360

McKenna: Yes, first part of September, 1943. Kelly: What did your mom and dad think about you going into the WAA? They were proud. I think they were worried, but still proud.

00:43:45.620 - 00:43:59.300

What, did any of your siblings go into the service? My youngest brother did. I think I told you a few nights ago that he was in a bad accident where his best friend was killed.

00:44:00.380 - 00:44:16.600

So, the Air Force let him resign. When you got to Sweetwater, what was your first impression of Sweetwater and Avenger Field? Well, I grew up in a big city, so a small city was something different for me.

00:44:18.740 - 00:44:39.600

Avenger Field seemed to be raised up from the bus level, wherever we were. It went on forever. I mean, there were no trees or anything. And of course, we were all—right immediately, Mrs. Deaton put us all on the defensive kind

00:44:39.700 - 00:45:06.520

of—but we adjusted. Kelly: What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make? Well, I still don't understand how twelve girls from two bays, or six from each bay, can share a bathroom with two showers, two johns, and two washbasins.

00:45:07.080 - 00:45:20.580

I still don't know how we ever got ready in time. Kelly: When you first got to Sweetwater, was Miss Cochran there? Lowry: No. Kelly: Who gave you your instructions about—

00:45:20.400 - 00:45:29.700

Ms. Deaton. Do you recall some of the rules? No. I think mostly we weren't supposed to do anything.

00:45:32.280 - 00:45:53.000

We could fly and we could go to ground school. Other than that, we couldn't do anything. And at that point, what did you think the purpose of training female pilots was? Well, we had been told not to talk to reporters, and from what I gathered, that we were kind

00:45:53.060 - 00:46:05.500

of a secret organization. And that surprised me. I think it was because they did not think women could do it, and I knew women could do it.

00:46:07.260 - 00:46:25.220

So I could not see any point in me. Tell me about your bay mates. Ruth: I had some really nice ones. I had Twyla Edwards, Ginny Delaney, Virginia Flugel.

00:46:28.100 - 00:46:54.780

Were their backgrounds similar to yours? Some were and some weren't, but we all felt like we were in this together. We only had one of our bay mates wash out, which we all hated to have her leave. We all were in it together.

00:46:55.360 - 00:47:06.200

Do you know why she washed out? No. We came back one afternoon and she was packing her gear, and she was crying, so we did not want to ask her any questions.

00:47:07.560 - 00:47:25.420

She packed up her gear and left. My friend that came down with me also washed out in primary. Being a laboratory technician, she went into the Army and became a lab technician for the Army, became an officer.

00:47:26.650 - 00:47:34.240

Do you recall talking to her? Was she bitter about it, or do you know how she felt? No. In fact, that was another thing.

00:47:34.710 - 00:47:48.160

We were so busy all the time. She just packed up and left. Kelly: Doris, describe for me a typical day in training. Doris: Let me tell you about shoes first, okay?

00:47:49.000 - 00:48:14.260

Shoes were rationed. So whatever shoes we had brought with us were what we had. And fortunately, I had some brown and white Oxfords with low heels. But I was looking at a picture recently of all of us marching, and I looked and I saw

00:48:14.280 - 00:48:30.100

one girl in Cuban heels. And I thought, "Oh, she must be in pain." But we did not get any shoes until we got our uniforms when we graduated. So we had to do with what we had.

00:48:33.080 - 00:48:52.680

Kelly: On a typical day? Well, we would be rousted out of our bed with the flight leader yelling, "Come on, girls, please come on." We would get up and get out into the cold morning and line up and march to Mess, the

00:48:52.540 - 00:49:17.820

Messaw and come back and get ourselves ready to go to flight line or ground school, either one. And if we went to flight line, we'd spend the time there until noon. And each instructor had four students, so you didn't just fly every day or every time.

00:49:20.100 - 00:49:37.620

But when it came your turn, you had to be ready and have your parachute all ready to go. I had a fine instructor for primary. He was really a nice one, and he came to one of our reunions here in Orlando.

00:49:39.920 - 00:49:52.420

So I talked to him and I had sent a Christmas card to him, and his daughter wrote back and said he was quite ill and was in a nursing home. What was his name? Smith, J.R. Smith.

00:49:55.160 - 00:50:24.320

But all of us passed primary with him being the instructor. My roommate Delaney had an instructor that, out of the four students, she was the only one that passed primary. He would swear at them, and I think that belittled them. She would not let anything happen to her, so she made it fine.

00:50:25.760 - 00:50:47.920

What kind of airplanes did you first start flying? We flew PT-19s, which were Fairchilds, an open cockpit. Tell me about the weather. We had snow once, and it was remarkable because it would come out and it was snow.

00:50:48.800 - 00:51:08.340

I think that was the morning I started out from the flight line to out to my airplane, PT-19. I had these leather sheep-lined pants and boots and a sheep-lined jacket and my helmet and my parachute.

00:51:09.100 - 00:51:32.580

I was trudging on out, and I got so hot I had to take the pants off, and I carried those. Then I carried the boots, and by the time I got to the airplane, I had shed all of it and put it in the back of the airplane, because I was so hot. But I enjoyed flying that airplane, although when he said, "Let's do some slow rolls,"

00:51:32.580 - 00:51:52.320

I never really appreciated them. How did you communicate with the instructor in the airplane? Well, he had a Gosport that connected to our earpieces on our helmet so that he could speak to us, but we could not speak back except to nod our heads yes or no.

00:51:54.440 - 00:52:07.760

Describe that Gosport. What was it? It was a tube that had some kind of a microphone or something that he spoke into, but it had had to go and then it went to a Y just before it came to your head.

00:52:08.320 - 00:52:23.700

And so when we got in the airplane and connected up our parachute, then we had to connect up the Gosport so that there were little metal tubes on our helmet. So we would fasten that and then we could hear him and he would tell us what he wanted us to do.

00:52:27.640 - 00:52:43.480

So sometimes you'd want to swear at him, but we didn't. They wouldn't hear us if they would. In primary, what did you mainly do in primary? Was it mainly aerobatics?

00:52:43.940 - 00:53:09.620

No, we did some. I think we were mainly taught how to do emergency landings. I was thinking recently about navigation. I have a good head for navigation and I never got lost, but I know a lot of people did.

00:53:10.560 - 00:53:26.600

How did you navigate since radar was not yet going? With my head. And I would know if we went out, if we went out in the west part of the airfield or we went the south or where we went, so I would know the direction to get back to the airfield.

00:53:27.260 - 00:53:48.080

And never missed. What were the auxiliary fields used for? Particularly when we were being tested by the Army, we were tested first by another instructor and then we were tested for an Army flight.

00:53:50.000 - 00:54:11.500

When we were tested for an Army flight, they put us in the bus, a truck, and took us out to an auxiliary field where we sat and waited until our time came to fly. And I remember my first one that we were all deathly afraid of the Army Air Force men because they looked so stern.

00:54:14.200 - 00:54:24.820

And I had done everything that he wanted me to do when I was testing. And then he said, "See that field down there?" And I said, "Yes, sir." I mean, nodded my head, "Yes."

00:54:24.820 - 00:54:37.660

And he said, "Get in it." And so I very carefully turned and made my turns, and I came around. He said, "You still think you're going to get in it?" And I shook my head, "Yes."

00:54:37.760 - 00:54:49.680

And we got closer and he said, "You still think so?" I shook my head, "Yes." And we got over the fence and he said, "What do you think now?" And I said, "Hm-hm-hm."

00:54:49.840 - 00:55:04.740

And I thought, "There goes the test." We got back and he went like this. I was jumping for joy. Kelly: When you finished primary, did you have some time off?

00:55:05.180 - 00:55:11.860

Ruth: No. We went right in. You said you did not go on BT-13s. We did.

00:55:12.420 - 00:55:39.440

We had several hours to learn how to fly the airplane, and then we went into instruments. We had a really tough class in instruments. The instructor flew with us for a while, and then we would fly with each other, so there would always be somebody watching out where we were going.

00:55:43.980 - 00:56:10.140

With us, we had an instructor that checked us on instruments, and we went on to AT-6s. We did not have an Army check, and we all wondered why, but we went on to AT-6s, and I loved that airplane. I had just come down from HOP, and one of my roommates said, "They want you right

00:56:13.480 - 00:56:21.980

now." flight line. And I said, "Where?" He said, "One of the Army pilots is sitting out there in an airplane waiting for you."

00:56:21.980 - 00:56:35.540

And I said, "Why me?" And they said, "Well, they picked one from each flight." And I was the unfortunate one. So I started out there and got out there, and I put my parachute in the back seat.

00:56:36.240 - 00:56:51.380

And then I got back down and I started checking the airplane like we're supposed to. And he says, "Get in." I thought, "Oh boy, I'm starting out right." But there again I got enough, so it all went well.

00:56:52.120 - 00:57:04.080

Let me ask you back in instruments, if you had some other way of learning about instruments and describe what that was. Link trainer, for example. Yes, well, we went to link trainer.

00:57:04.980 - 00:57:19.980

I understand there are wreaths on the wall there of all the people who crashed in the link trainer, which was easy to do. Could you describe what a link trainer is? It's like a cabin on an airplane, small.

00:57:21.560 - 00:57:46.320

You have the same motions, and you have a stick and you have your instruments. The instructor outside of the link trainer tells you what to do, and that is to help you adjust to the instruments. And I think now of how much time we spent on instruments and what they can do now is

00:57:48.620 - 00:58:02.560

phenomenal. Kelly: Right. Tell me about some of the courses that you had for ground school. Well, we had navigation, and gosh, I can't think of any.

00:58:03.420 - 00:58:17.900

I know we had— Kelly: Morse code? Beall: Yes, we had Morse code. That was a little bit difficult to remember, but I think there again, why did we have to

00:58:18.020 - 00:58:30.460

remember that with the way they have it now? we had. I just do not remember. How about PE?

00:58:30.750 - 00:58:45.340

Did you have it? Every day. The PE instructor had a nice sense of humor. That is a good thing because I have one picture with us standing at attention while he was

00:58:45.380 - 00:59:04.760

talking to us. Then we put our hands out and there was one girl that had her hands draped down like that. But he did have a nice sense of humor and he really worked us. When you were in training, did you have weekends off?

00:59:07.020 - 00:59:21.860

Some. We ran behind because of weather. So it got to the point where we were flying on weekends too. One exception to that, if you went to church, they would let you go to church on Sundays.

00:59:22.520 - 00:59:40.020

So a lot of us went to church on Sundays just to get away. Do you recall any of the people in Sweetwater that you might have met? Just the Wetzels. They had a ranch, and they invited us out to the ranch.

00:59:40.560 - 00:59:59.980

We had a lot of fun exploring the ranch. They had some caves, and that frightened me. But some of the gals went crawling through these caves, gypsum caves. What did Mr. Wetzel do?

01:00:00.480 - 01:00:06.680

Was he a rancher? He had this ranch. Did they have children your ages? Just that one that was in the Navy.

01:00:07.980 - 01:00:33.000

She was a beauty operator. She had a beauty salon in her home, and I don't think we gave her much time for that, but she was a lovely person. When you finished basic training and went into the '86, what did you mainly learn in

01:00:33.080 - 01:00:52.000

that phase of training? Well, one thing, it had 650 horsepower. The other thing that was important was the retractable landing gear. When you got up off the ground and had given it the gun and had those wheels up, you felt

01:00:52.080 - 01:01:10.900

like you were really going someplace. I really liked that airplane. What day was it when Bill came to town? the first of February. We were graduating the twelfth of March, so it was shortly before

01:01:11.000 - 01:01:43.720

we graduated. But I still did all the ground school and the flight training while he stayed in the hotel. But he went on to the Pacific to a light carrier, and he was in the Battle of Lady Gulf, and And his carrier was hit, and it had the hangar deck under the flight deck filled with airplanes,

01:01:43.940 - 01:02:01.840

all fueled, ready to go. And the bomb hit right through it and blew up a lot of the airplanes. They tried to save the aircraft carrier and did everything they could. There had been a new captain that came aboard.

01:02:02.640 - 01:02:18.600

The old captain was still aboard, but a new captain came aboard and he lost his foot. They tried to save the carrier and could not. I do not remember how many were killed. Bill was a gunnery officer.

01:02:21.200 - 01:02:41.640

When they gave the word to abandon ship, he went down the line and a destroyer had come up right underneath the carrier. He went down to the fo'c'sle of the destroyer, so he did not even get his feet wet. The thing that got me was that I had sent all my pictures to him.

01:02:42.590 - 01:02:59.600

Of course, they all went down with the ship. Thank goodness he was all right. And the thing about it, they notified the radio, and the radio announced it the next day so that we did not know what had happened.

01:03:00.100 - 01:03:17.440

They said it would have been sunk. It was a week later that I got a postcard from Bill, and it just had checked off, "M. well, we'll write later." And that was such a relief.

01:03:19.950 - 01:03:44.700

While you were in training, what were your uniforms like? Khaki pants, white shirt, and overseas cap, and my brown and white Oxfords. And then at some point before you graduated, did you get new uniforms? Just as we graduated, we got the uniforms and we had slacks and the Eisenhower jacket

01:03:44.780 - 01:04:09.700

and the regular suit coat and the skirt, and a raincoat, and black shoes. We did get some shoes. Kelly: When you graduated, did you have a choice of where you would be stationed? They listed all of where we were going to go, and we could pick and choose if we wanted

01:04:09.820 - 01:04:26.360

to. That didn't mean we were going to get it, but Bill was applying for a flight training, to come back for flight training. So I wanted to be out there in California, as near as possible to where he would come

01:04:26.380 - 01:04:41.360

back. So I put in for Stockton, California. My roommate put in for Merced, and the other roommate put in for Bakersfield. Both of those gals were Californians.

01:04:42.020 - 01:04:56.580

They had lived in California, so they liked it out there. So we thought we would all be together. When we went, Delaney, the one that is from Akron, Ohio, met me in Chicago, and we flew out together.

01:05:00.360 - 01:05:21.060

One of our instructors was the co-pilot on the airplane when we were flying out there, which was surprising. We had a good chat with him. We stayed with some friends of Delaney's in Hollywood overnight, and then we took the

01:05:21.120 - 01:05:53.040

train—the three of us took the train up the valley, to San Joaquin Valley, to Bakersfield, Merced and Stockton. We dropped off each one of the gals in the way. We got to Stockton just about dark, and I have never felt so alone in my life, not knowing anybody and not knowing where I was going or anything, just Stockton. I got in a cab and the hotels

01:05:53.080 - 01:06:23.060

were all full. The cab driver said, "Let's keep going. We'll drive around." Well, I didn't like his attitude much, so I went to this one hotel and they said, "I think if you wait a little bit, we'll have a room." So I did. The next morning, they told me where to go and stand to get a bus out to the field. So

01:06:23.060 - 01:06:37.960

I said, "I certainly would." So I had my B-4 bag and I got in the car. Well, I got out to the base, and not knowing a thing about the base, they told us to report to the adjutant.

01:06:39.220 - 01:07:05.680

I had no idea what the rank of an adjutant was. I walked into this room, and it was a wide-open room with all kinds of desks in there. as I walked in, it went death quiet. Everybody looked up at me. The man who was at the little reception desk, I asked him to see the adjutant. He went off here to my right, and I stood

01:07:05.760 - 01:07:36.300

there and everybody was looking at me. Pretty soon, the man came back and this lieutenant Colonel was with him. I thought, "Well, the adjutant must be a Lieutenant Colonel." Well, of course, he was the exec, but he was very nice and he took me into the Colonel. The Colonel sat me down and gave me a ten-minute lecture on wartime marriages. When he finished,

01:07:36.300 - 01:07:51.140

She said, "You're not married, are you?" And I said, "Yes, sir." So he was a very nice man. His family wasn't out there with him yet, but when his daughter came out with him, he

01:07:51.180 - 01:08:18.380

asked my friend and I to introduce her around, which I thought was a nice compliment. But I tried my very best to be prim and proper and do everything just exactly right, not to make any waves at all. It worked fine until my friend who went to Merced reported in.

01:08:20.040 - 01:08:31.380

The CO said, "I did not ask you here. I do not want you here. Stay out from under my feet." So she was just done in.

01:08:31.860 - 01:08:45.900

She had been there a couple of weeks, and she flew up to Santon. I came down from a flight, and somebody said, "The operations officer wants to see you right away." I thought, "Oh, boy.

01:08:46.440 - 01:08:58.320

What have I done now?" I walked over to the operations officer. Here she was sitting on his desk with her foot flying and having a good time talking to him.

01:09:00.820 - 01:09:17.200

She had flown up to find out if my CO would get her transferred up to Stockton, which he did. So there were the two of us there then, and we flew together all the time. So it worked out very well.

01:09:19.040 - 01:09:41.560

Let me go back and ask you about your graduation, because I think it was special. Tell me what was special about your graduation. We had General Arnold, of course, there, and Jackie Cochran, and I believe Nancy Love. We had a couple of other important men I don't remember.

01:09:44.540 - 01:10:08.120

As we went up to get our wings, the first gal up, General Arnold pinned her wings on. The next gal came up, and I think it was Katelyn Harris, and she said, "Oh, don't stop now." And, Jacqueline Cochran said, "Well, the General will not pin any more wings on."

01:10:08.120 - 01:10:19.160

You know, you had to put your hand in there. He said, "Oh, yes I will." And, he pinned them all on, all of us, which we all thought was real nice. So.

01:10:20.150 - 01:10:29.120

Did you have a band? I think we did. I think we had the local band. Kelly: Okay.

01:10:29.120 - 01:10:38.160

And then, after you graduated, did you have some time off? Did you go home? Reid: Yes. My mother and my sister came for the graduation.

01:10:38.900 - 01:11:03.720

So there were several women in Sweetwater that, for a price, would drive you to Dallas, which was a big help because the trains only went, I do not know, once a day or something like that. So, by hiring one of these women, we drove over to Dallas and then were able to get a

01:11:03.720 - 01:11:19.560

train from there. So, we took a train then on home. Kelly: And then to get to Stockton from home, how did you get? Well, I took the train to Chicago and met my friend from Akron, and we flew out then

01:11:19.740 - 01:11:28.820

from Chicago. Kelly: Okay. There was one other thing I wanted to ask you about training. Tell me what it was like when a sandstorm would come up.

01:11:28.820 - 01:11:47.560

Robinson: Oh, boy. We only had one while I was there that I remember. Delaney, my friend, and I, we were on a cross-country trip. We were on our way back, and we were flying loose formation because we were not allowed

01:11:47.640 - 01:12:00.960

to fly formation flying. So we were flying loose formation, keeping an eye on each other. We got to Big Springs, which is just west of Sweetwater, and we looked ahead, and it looked like a block.

01:12:01.740 - 01:12:11.700

It was square. You could see this side, and you could see that side, and you could see the top, but all the way down to the ground here. And I thought, well, I don't know what that'll do

01:12:11.760 - 01:12:23.720

to the carburetor, so I'm gonna go south. So I start south, and I went south further and further and further, and I still was in it. So I thought, this isn't gonna work, so I climb.

01:12:24.340 - 01:12:33.660

So I start climbing, and same thing. I couldn't get on the top of it. And in the meantime, I had lost my friend. I couldn't find her.

01:12:35.420 - 01:12:56.440

She had lost her engine, and she was on her way down. She said all she could think of was, "It's so cold," and she put the canopy back. She was going to ride it down. She got down quite low, and all of a sudden the engine caught.

01:12:58.500 - 01:13:20.880

She gave it full throttle and she got there just behind me. She was still white and shaking because she did not think she was going to make it. I had never seen anything like that before. It was almost like fog, it was so thick.

01:13:22.140 - 01:13:42.500

It was just really a square. Kelly: It was just sand? sand, just sand. No one had ever told us whether we could fly through them, so I figured it would ruin the carburetor. But we made it.

01:13:42.550 - 01:14:12.980

Kelly: Tell me about a favorite cross-country trip you might have made. Of course, our last one was the best one, the 2,000-mile one. We were all looking forward to it, but just before we were to take it, Mrs. Deaton came around and told us that one of our classmates had been killed and she was in the other flight.

01:14:14.000 - 01:14:35.560

But that really put a damper on all of us. We started out and we had twelve airplanes, twelve students, and one airplane with the instructor and an establishment officer in it. Although we had been there six months and mountains were all to the west of us, we had

01:14:35.600 - 01:14:57.260

never flown in mountains. We knew about updrafts and downdrafts, and of course, this girl that had just been killed, that had something to do with it. We were all a little leery of mountains, and they told us we could clear the pass at El

01:14:57.260 - 01:15:12.820

Paso at 9,000 feet. I looked at it coming up, and I thought, "Well, a little bit more altitude wouldn't hurt." So I climbed a little bit and got a little closer, and I thought, "Well, a little bit more won't hurt."

01:15:12.820 - 01:15:32.120

So I climbed a little more, and all of a sudden I was at 13,000 feet. I looked around, and here were all my classmates right around with me. They had done the same thing. But we got into El Paso, and that was the first time I had been at a big airport with

01:15:32.360 - 01:15:54.000

all kinds of airplanes coming in. I think I was about eighth in the approach leg. Ahead of me were Navy planes and all kinds of aircraft. We flew 150 miles an hour, and we were not very fast, according to these others.

01:15:56.900 - 01:16:20.300

I got down to about six down, and they were still coming in. I thought, "Not for me," so I pulled up and went around. I got into the approach leg again, and the operator was screaming at a Navy plane, "Put down your wheels, put down your wheels."

01:16:21.820 - 01:16:38.460

There was no response, and the fellow came in wheels up. His excuse was that he got tired listening to the radio. He came in and of course he blocked the runway, so they made us go over to another runway, which was exactly crosswind.

01:16:41.540 - 01:16:57.000

I came in and landed there, and there was a little jeep up ahead that said, "Follow me." I followed him, and it just got dark just then, and they turned on the lights. I had not had a bit of night training.

01:16:58.140 - 01:17:05.320

Boy, was I glad to be down. [Laughter] Kelly: Later on, did you get some night flying? Reifel: Oh, yes.

01:17:05.780 - 01:17:28.560

When we came back, we had night flying. I never really liked it because west of Sweetwater are all the oil wells in Big Spring and west of there. and they have all these gas-lit, gas flames. From an airplane from sixty, seventy miles

01:17:28.600 - 01:17:55.400

away, it looks like an airplane coming towards you. I thought everybody in the whole state of Texas was coming for me. They had us stack our airplanes on each of the four corners. They stacked them three deep at different altitudes, so they would tell you to go to the southwest corner and go to the different altitude.

01:17:56.380 - 01:18:22.800

That kind of frightened me too, because at night, and solo, I knew there were two airplanes under me, and I did not want to run into them, that is for sure. But it all worked out, and I passed the solar test. I did not do much night flying at Stockton.

01:18:24.460 - 01:18:45.000

Is there anything else about your training that you would like to tell us about? Was that one girl the only one that was killed while you were there? Yes, yes. What happened to her was her plane caught fire out of Blythe, California, and she parachuted

01:18:45.600 - 01:19:07.720

and she landed on the side of a mountain and the wind blew her over and killed her. Fortunately, there was a miner there who was mining and saw her. So he got to her right away, but she was gone. So that really, really hurt all of us.

01:19:08.090 - 01:19:28.320

What was her name? Betty Stein. Do you know then what happened to her body? The Army did not pay for any insurance for us, so we had none, unless we had it with

01:19:28.360 - 01:19:42.160

our own family. We had none to take her home. One of the other girls, one of her roommates, would go with her on the train to take her body home.

01:19:46.120 - 01:20:07.780

That really made us sad, too. We were lucky, I think, that we only had lost one. There is a wishing well still at Venture Field. What did that wishing well, what was that all about?

01:20:07.780 - 01:20:36.740

Well, the first person in each flight that soloed in each one of the phases got thrown into the wishing well. I guess they threw money in there too to wish to pass a test, but Kate Lee Harris went in. I think I have a picture of her being thrown in there, because she sold it first.

01:20:38.860 - 01:20:59.580

Kelly: You were at Avenger during the Christmas season at Christmas. Do you recall what you did at Christmas? Well, we had a program that different people acted. I sang, and it was a nice program. Did you sing in a group or did you have a solo?

01:20:59.600 - 01:21:20.940

No, I sang a solo, and I don't remember what I sang now. But you didn't bring your horn? No, I didn't have my horn. But it was a nice program they had for us. I think we were home for two weeks, I'm not sure of that, in March when we graduated.

01:21:24.420 - 01:21:47.660

Then I was at Stockton, and they checked me out into AT-17. I think she needs to change the tape before we start. I didn't ask her who her bridesmaid was. Did you have a bridesmaid?

01:21:48.180 - 01:21:56.240

No. No, she didn't have one. Are you hot? No, we turned it off.

01:21:56.500 - 01:22:10.560

Kelly: When you arrived at Stockton, where did you live? Reese: I lived in the nurses' quarters. Kelly: How were you received? Reese: With the nurses kind of coolly.

01:22:12.800 - 01:22:37.080

When Delaney came and joined me up there, the head nurse came and really chewed us out this one day because there were some dents in the floor. Ginny looked at her shoes and she had lost part of her heel. The nails from her shoe were hitting the floor and the nurse did not like that at all.

01:22:38.040 - 01:22:51.020

So we got her shoes fixed so she was all right. Kelly: Where did you have your meals? at the Army, officers mess hall. They had good food.

01:22:53.920 - 01:23:22.280

Speaking of food, let me go back to Sweetwater. The mess hall there was not anything to brag about, but they had lima beans that they got gotten these great big cans that had been cooked in water. The food had been cooked in water. They served lima beans about every meal. We got sick of lima beans. Well, we

01:23:22.300 - 01:23:41.100

marched over there one day, and the gal who was our flight leader marched us into the mess hall. She went down the line and she looked and she said, "Lima beans again." So she straightened up and said, "About face." And so we all turned around and we marched out of there, and we went into the canteen.

01:23:42.040 - 01:24:01.960

And of course we had to pay for our food there, but we all had something to eat there. So from then on, the canteen was closed for all the mess at times. But we all got a big laugh out of that. The food at Stockton was good.

01:24:04.940 - 01:24:17.740

Kelly: Describe what the canteen was like. Reifelt: Well, in Sweetwater, it was very small. I was surprised. There was no barbershop, no PX, or anything there.

01:24:18.080 - 01:24:43.420

All there was was a small canteen. I think that is the only time I ever went in it, was with our group. Let me tell you something else. Before I went in the WASP, I was making $80 a month at Chrysler's as a secretary. I thought I was doing pretty well, but I did not have much to spend. But

01:24:44.560 - 01:25:01.620

looking at the WASP, I thought, "Boy, I am going to start getting $150 a month. I am going to be on the gravy train." So the first month came, and they handed out the checks, and mine said nine dollars. And I could not believe it.

01:25:02.360 - 01:25:12.940

I thought, "Well, they took out for room and board and laundry and for our uniforms, for khaki pants." So I had nine dollars. I think the most I ever got is eleven.

01:25:15.220 - 01:25:20.660

Big hundred and fifties. Kelly: You worked for Chrysler? Reifelt: Yes. Kelly: And your dad worked for Ford?

01:25:20.660 - 01:25:32.220

Reifelt: Ford, yes. Well, Detroit area is automobile. My sister worked for Chrysler, too. Kelly: When you were stationed at Stockton, what was your job?

01:25:32.520 - 01:25:46.300

What were you assigned to do? Reifelt: Test engineering. Kelly: Explain what that is. Reifelt: When the planes went in for overhaul, or if they had an accident, or any way they

01:25:46.120 - 01:26:26.240

were in for repair. When they came out, they were to be tested before the cadets could fly them. When I first started, they checked me out in the AT-17 or UC-78. There were three men and myself. The airplane, you had to have two people flying it. A lot of the crew checked chiefs liked to fly, so they did not want to fly when we were two. When just one of

01:26:26.240 - 01:26:51.400

us went, then they were fine because they could fly with us. But when my friend came, she and I flew together all the time, so the crew chiefs did not like that much at all. But it made it so much quicker for us because we both knew what we were doing, and we could They both go ahead and do what we had to do, and be finished with that one, come down and

01:26:51.400 - 01:27:05.820

get another one. Kelly: What was SNOP? Was it a training base? Reid: It was an advanced training for cadets going into multi-engines, because the UC-78

01:27:05.900 - 01:27:21.740

or 8017 was twin-engine. It was a light airplane. They called it the "Bamboo Bomber," but it gave them training for multi-engine. That was the point.

01:27:21.850 - 01:27:36.980

Kelly: Where were you or how did you hear about the fact the WASPs were going to be deactivated? McMillan: Well, you know, like I told you, I was there at Stockton by myself for quite some time.

01:27:38.340 - 01:27:54.560

I never got any news about any other WASP, except I think Delaney called me once or twice from Merced. But, other than that, I heard nothing, nothing from Jacqueline Cochran, nothing from anybody. I felt kind of isolated.

01:27:54.980 - 01:28:26.140

Kelly: Nobody came by to see you? When Delaney came, well, then of course the two of us were there. Somehow, maybe from her, I do not know, but I heard about the rumors about deactivation. I was hoping it was not true, but shortly after Delaney came, they sent me to OCS down

01:28:26.100 - 01:28:40.060

in Orlando by myself. I mean, she did not go with me. Kelly: Right. What is OCS? Reed: Well, that was Officers Training School and Officers Candidate School. Kelly: And what was the purpose, do you think?

01:28:40.100 - 01:29:09.800

Reed: To prepare us to become officers in the Army. And that is what Jacqueline Cochran had worked toward all the way. And it was an interesting course. We had all kinds of things, military law, and went up in the pressure chambers. How did you get from Stockton to Orlando?

01:29:10.480 - 01:29:17.500

I think I flew. And when you got there, were there other girls there also? Oh, yes. Yes.

01:29:18.020 - 01:29:31.380

And was this a course just for girls? Yes, just for WASP. There must have been thirty, thirty-five, maybe forty people, forty Washington barracks. Kelly: Where did you live there?

01:29:31.380 - 01:29:45.400

Reed: We lived in the barracks there on the field. We had all our classes right there. They had an officers' club that we went to occasionally. Kelly: Who taught these courses?

01:29:45.870 - 01:29:55.280

Reed: Army officers. Most of them were extremely good. Kelly: Did you do any flying while you were there? Reid: No, none.

01:29:55.560 - 01:30:13.400

Kelly: Okay. How long did that course last? Reid: Just about a month, I think. I think I was gone a month. But, it was interesting. Kelly: And, do you know why the Wasps were never militarized since you had been through the course?

01:30:16.900 - 01:30:45.140

I can't help but remember that one representative said that we didn't want a bunch of glamor girls in the Army. And I thought, with our GI coveralls and all, we were really glamor girls. But the men who were teaching the CPT programs around the country, they closed that program

01:30:45.700 - 01:31:07.940

so that all those men were out of work. They were so afraid they were going to be drafted, so they really put on a campaign to block us from militarization, because we were taking their jobs. They won.

01:31:08.980 - 01:31:22.740

And, of course, by that time, some of the men were coming back from overseas, too, which is understandable. Kelly: Right. Did the air base at Stockton do anything special for you girls when you were deactivated?

01:31:23.300 - 01:31:43.380

No, I did not stay for deactivation. Bill had written me and said that he had orders to come back for flight training. So I had orders to go, I believe it was, to B-25 school in Victorville. And I thought, "Well, now is a good time to resign, because I am not starting something

01:31:43.480 - 01:32:05.560

new and I will be able to stay here in San Francisco." He had a cousin living in San Francisco, so I went over and stayed with her for a while. When I ran out of money, I went home, because the captain would not let him off the ship. They were fighting, and Lady Golf was a big battle.

01:32:08.500 - 01:32:30.700

So he did not get off the ship until the ship was sunk, and that was in October. When he got home, it took him a long time to get home, but when he got home, they gave him thirty-day survivor leave. So we were home in Detroit, and then we reported for his flight school in the Tummel, Iowa,

01:32:31.980 - 01:32:41.700

in the middle of winter. It was about ten below when we first went there, and he was the fly stearman with their open cockpit. But—

01:32:41.700 - 01:32:55.040

At that point, couldn't you teach him? Well, let me tell you about that. He would come home, and we had a small apartment. I did not do much because it was so darn cold.

01:32:57.260 - 01:33:14.240

First of all, we had a room, and I had to go out for all my meals. I had to ride a bus downtown in the town to go for meals. Then we got an apartment. He would go out and fly, and then he would come home at night, and I would say, "What

01:33:14.120 - 01:33:30.840

you do today? What did you do today? Did you do this?" And he would say, "I've had it all day. I don't want any more tonight." The first time he got it down, I was telling him, "Now you have to do it this way." And I was showing him. He didn't like that a bit.

01:33:33.480 - 01:33:54.060

Kelly: Did he take just primary there, and then did you move somewhere else? Yes, we moved to Corpus Christi, and then he went to Beeville, Texas, and then we went to Norfolk for operational. And you can see in the thing I wrote up how many different addresses we had.

01:33:56.220 - 01:34:11.560

And comparing as he went through training, was it pretty much what you had gone through? Yes and no. Of course, we didn't do any combat flying. And being a Navy pilot, you have to be a carrier pilot—I mean a fighter pilot.

01:34:12.730 - 01:34:25.840

You have to be a carrier pilot. And of course we never had any of that, short field landings, and they had to really practice that. So that was different.

01:34:27.220 - 01:34:42.740

And the demands on him were severe, I mean, to do things. We had to do it. So, you were at Beeville, Texas when he graduated? Yes, yes.

01:34:44.740 - 01:35:10.600

That was pre-operational, I think. I had one of the fellows in his class, his wife, we were friends, and she had found an elderly man that lived in Beeville that had horses, and they were the type that you rode. And so we would go out riding.

01:35:12.960 - 01:35:35.840

He had been a missionary, and in his house—it leaked all through the center of the house, but he had all those good things pushed aside. But he would offer us a coffee cake and coffee, and he had a safe, you know, the old type of bakery safe where they put things inside.

01:35:36.640 - 01:35:54.360

And he said he kept it in there for the varmints who wouldn't get it. And we had an awfully nice time with him riding his horses. So we had a good time there. So when Bill graduated from flying school, where was he assigned?

01:35:55.020 - 01:36:14.580

I think we went to Norfolk to operational. It's been so long ago that... He got out of the Navy when our first child was born. We were in Norfolk.

01:36:15.540 - 01:36:35.420

He got out of the Navy and we went back to Detroit. We stayed a couple of years, I guess. He liked the Navy better than what he was doing, and so we went back in the Navy. We traveled from there.

01:36:36.040 - 01:36:51.700

Kelly: Okay. Just kind of take me through your duty stations after that. Did you get to go with him everywhere? Rose: Except when he went on med cruises, Mediterranean cruises.

01:36:52.140 - 01:37:16.220

He'd go on those for six months at a time, and I didn't go with him there. I usually had a small child. We had four children, and I usually had a small child that I was taking care of. I didn't go with him, but he had two tours in Italy, one in Rome where he was an assistant

01:37:16.440 - 01:37:33.220

naval attache, and one in Naples where he was with the NATO staff. And did you get to go and live there? And stayed both times. They sent him to language school in Washington before we left, and he sent me to language

01:37:33.340 - 01:37:53.680

school at night. He arranged to have a woman teach the wives of his classmates in the Navy Language School. The professor let us use his classroom, so we just met there in the evenings and had our class.

01:37:55.700 - 01:38:14.720

I had fifty hours of Italian training, which did not make me an Italian speaker, but I managed. And then where did you live? Well, when we went to Rome, I had to find an apartment.

01:38:15.480 - 01:38:39.600

My poor Italian, I managed. We had a lovely apartment, and I had a maid and I had a cook. It's hard to get along with a maid and a cook, I'll tell you. They both loved the girls, and we just had the girls when we were in Rome.

01:38:41.800 - 01:38:58.060

So I could go and do what I had to with Bill, and they stayed home. One night I was talking to the youngest one, and she said, "But you go out and have fun every night." I thought, "That's fun?"

01:38:58.060 - 01:39:18.500

As usual in a cocktail party, the men all congregate over here. Most of the men, no matter what country they were from, spoke English. Bill spoke Italian very well, so he could speak that too. But the women over here, almost none of them spoke English.

01:39:19.720 - 01:39:31.100

And so I found if I could lead the conversation, like, "Is this your home? Where do you live? How many children do you have? And how old are they?"

01:39:31.100 - 01:39:46.820

When I could lead the conversation like that, I was fine. But as soon as I finished, then they would go, "She knows how to speak Italian." And my ears were standing on end. Where did the children go to school?

01:39:47.000 - 01:40:05.920

They went to a Catholic school there. They could have gone to a Protestant school, but I thought maybe the Catholic school, if we are not Catholic, would be good training for them, which I think it was. I became the Girl Scout leader.

01:40:06.340 - 01:40:22.120

I had forty-two Girl Scouts from all over the country, or all over the world, and we had a good time. Did they learn to speak English? The other girls?

01:40:22.260 - 01:40:48.260

Most of them spoke English, and this school was Marymount, so it was taught in English. The girls did very well. In fact, they gave a medal to the best student in each class. The first year, on the final day, they came to the door and rang the doorbell.

01:40:48.680 - 01:41:04.100

They had a key, but they rang the doorbell. And when I opened it, they said, "Look." And they all had the medal, each and every one of them. And the next year when they did that, they said, "Look, we did it again."

01:41:04.120 - 01:41:17.000

And so they got all the medals each year. So they were really pleased, and they were all good students. So that was really nice. Kelly: And you had two tours in Italy.

01:41:18.680 - 01:41:29.600

Where did you go after the first tour? Did you have a tour of the States? Lowdermilk Honstein: Yes, we were back for five years. I went to Army War College.

01:41:30.570 - 01:41:48.780

He was in the Navy, but he went to Army War College. And we went to Washington, where we had a three-year tour, I believe. He was in the Pentagon. Then we got orders back to Italy, which surprised both of us.

01:41:49.420 - 01:42:06.760

But he could speak the language, so I think that was—they said you'd never go back with that many children, but we did. He would go back in the same attaché job? No, we went to Naples and he was with the NATO group there.

01:42:09.440 - 01:42:30.720

When ships would come in the Mediterranean, Bill would go and meet them at the port and he would translate for them or interpret for them when they made their calls on the local mayors or whatever, so he would do that. So he'd be gone different times.

01:42:31.340 - 01:42:46.360

Were there a lot of other Navy wives there? Yes. Did you get involved with the club? Yes, it was interesting because they were all different nationalities.

01:42:48.280 - 01:43:09.980

The little Italian I knew—well, I sat between the Italian wife and the Turkish wife. She didn't speak—she taught herself Italian, so she didn't speak it real well. And the Italian wife spoke a little English, but not a lot. So when they're talking, it's hard to understand another language.

01:43:10.500 - 01:43:27.400

So I would interpret here and then to here. So it was fun. On the second tour, how many children did you have? Well, all together we had five children.

01:43:28.220 - 01:43:56.080

Our last two were twins, but we lost one of them when he was fifteen, so we have four. But we had five there in Naples, and the boys were just small. Kelly: Were you involved with their activities also? Reed: There was a school across the street, it was an Italian school across the street

01:43:56.160 - 01:44:17.740

from where we lived. We saw the man who, I guess he was just a portieri for that school, which is the janitor. But he talked and said, "Why don't you bring the boys to school over here?" And I said, "But they don't speak any Italian."

01:44:17.740 - 01:44:31.240

He said, "That's all right." So I sent them over there for a while, and I think they were kind of—well, they didn't speak any language. Of course, they were only about four years old, two, four, five years old.

01:44:34.060 - 01:44:55.160

But they were very nice to them and very nice to me. After the boys stopped going there, they invited us over for Coke and ice cream or something. So it was nice. Kelly: Let me ask you, evidently you think it's important for parents to be involved

01:44:55.260 - 01:45:09.580

with children. Why was it important to you? Let me tell you this. Before we moved here, the last thirteen years, I worked in the school.

01:45:12.180 - 01:45:36.900

I had the boys at home at that point. I found it was good to know what they were doing and what I could do to help. As a bookkeeper, I knew what was going on in the whole school, and that way I could help them.

01:45:38.560 - 01:45:50.300

The girls were very good at school. They did not have any problems. The boys were not as acclimated as that. So I thought it was important.

01:45:51.200 - 01:46:03.680

I was a Girl Scout troop leader, and I was the boys' leader for a while. What is it called? Kelly: Scoutmaster? Ruth: No, Cub Scouts.

01:46:09.200 - 01:46:31.180

I just felt like they knew I was part of the program. A lot of times Bill was gone, so it helped me and helped them. CF: Were the children ever around their grandparents very much? Your mom and dad?

01:46:31.230 - 01:46:36.840

JB: No, no. My dad— CF: In the summertime, would you visit? JB: No, they would come to visit us.

01:46:38.120 - 01:46:58.380

I had to have a list of all the jobs that I needed my dad to do, so he would do them. When he finished, he said, "Well, Mom, I think we better go." They had a house trailer down in St. Petersburg, so they spent the winters there and then they spent the summers traveling.

01:46:59.520 - 01:47:14.060

So they would come around and see all of us. After you got home from that second tour of duty in Italy, where did you live then? Well, Bill got out of the Navy then. For the second time?

01:47:14.180 - 01:47:32.000

Yes, right. We came to Jacksonville because he had flown home and had gotten a job at Thompson & McKinnon stockbrokers. We came back and found a place there in Jacksonville, and then he went right to work.

01:47:33.240 - 01:47:52.320

He stayed with them quite some time, and then he decided that wasn't really what he wanted, and he got his Master's in teaching. So he went back to teaching, and then he became a headmaster of a private school. What was he teaching?

01:47:54.500 - 01:48:19.680

Math, and he was teaching junior high school in the public schools. He said that's the worst place to teach because they're not grown up and they're not children. But he managed it, and then, like I said, he was headmaster for a few years at a private

01:48:19.840 - 01:48:29.580

school. Kelly: Then how long did you live in Jacksonville? Ruth: For about twenty years. And that's when I went to work.

01:48:30.680 - 01:48:43.580

We had three girls in college at the same time up in Florida State, so that meant Mother had to go to work. Kelly: And what did Mother do? I was secretary and bookkeeper at the elementary schools in Clay County.

01:48:47.120 - 01:49:17.480

I enjoyed it and I liked some of the principals, they're still my friends. I formed a union while I was there. I found that they had a raise for all the people in the school system, and they gave the bus drivers a dollar a day raise, and they gave us, the clerical people, fifty cents.

01:49:18.780 - 01:49:39.260

And I figured that wasn't fair. So I decided to form an association, because the bus drivers did. They had speakers and they had everything. So I sent a letter to all the people in my group, and then I went down to tell the superintendent

01:49:39.440 - 01:49:52.300

what I was doing. I made an appointment and went down after school to him. His wife was a clerical. She worked as a library aide in one of the schools I had worked with her.

01:49:54.660 - 01:50:10.420

He said, "That pays enough for my wife." And I said, "I will have to ask her." And he kind of looked kind of stunned. But the next morning, the school where I was, he came to the school.

01:50:11.600 - 01:50:23.780

And I said, I took him into the principal's office and I said, "If you wait here, I'll find the principal." He was out in one of the classrooms. So I went and found him and brought him back, and he went in with the superintendent.

01:50:27.260 - 01:50:50.100

They were only in there for a few minutes, and they came out. The superintendent said, "Mrs. Hamacher, you go ahead with that." He left, and the principal said, "He did not want to see me, he wanted to see you." And then he told me I was the head of a union, not an association.

01:50:52.680 - 01:51:03.340

So it was interesting. How long did you work at that job? Thirteen years. And I worked at several different schools.

01:51:04.540 - 01:51:17.920

I was—several different principals, when they got a new school, asked if I would come with them. So that was a compliment. And I enjoyed it.

01:51:18.600 - 01:51:27.800

I enjoyed the children. I enjoyed the people I worked with. So. What made you decide to move where you're living now?

01:51:27.960 - 01:51:38.160

Was that your next move? Yes. Bill read about this place in one of the Navy magazines. There was an ad.

01:51:39.100 - 01:51:57.640

And he said, "Let's go down and see it." So it is about 156 miles down here. He was retired at that point, so we would come down and take a look at it. I told him he was buying a pig and a poke, because there was nothing here.

01:51:58.280 - 01:52:16.900

There was no street, Mirror Road was not even built. They had an office downtown. And then we had to come around back and walk in to get in here. I told him it was not something I was interested in, but he insisted.

01:52:17.500 - 01:52:36.920

So every week we'd come down and see how they were doing. And finally we went ahead and put down our money, so it's worked out very nicely. In the meantime, what are your children doing? Our oldest daughter is a superintendent of schools up in New York State.

01:52:38.380 - 01:53:03.760

Our second daughter works for USAA in Norfolk. Our third daughter works for the Department of Transportation in the state of Wisconsin. Our son is a flight attendant, so he is in airplanes. But right now he's on a—what do they call it?

01:53:05.720 - 01:53:28.340

Anyway, he's not working for United right now. He volunteered to take a—well, what's the word I want? Anyway, he's off for fifteen months. But he and a friend of his have been doing parties of flowers for parties, big parties.

01:53:28.420 - 01:53:47.760

I mean weddings and big parties in downtown Jacksonville. So that's what they're doing now. And United still pays his health insurance, and also he keeps his seniority, and also mother and dad can still travel.

01:53:51.580 - 01:54:06.080

So that's nice. But, as far as flying, with a mother that was a pilot and a father that was a pilot, none of your children? Redmond: I'll tell you, all of them have been so proud of us, both of us.

01:54:07.920 - 01:54:31.600

We've been in Navy town, so having a father that flew was not anything exceptional. But when they told my mother flew, that was exceptional. They were all proud of us. Kelly: Tell me, what have you done to keep up with the WASP friends?

01:54:31.600 - 01:54:57.700

Reed: Well, like I think I told you before, I was a treasurer from 2000 to 2002. Right now, I am doing all the computer work for Helen Snap, who is the present treasurer. So we keep up to date pretty much. Kelly: Were you involved in any of the things when the Wasps were given veteran status?

01:54:57.870 - 01:55:19.340

Ruth: No, because I was too far away. I was here in the yonder, but never in Washington at that point. We did have duty in Washington at one time, but not at the time. Bruce Arnold, though, was in my husband's Army War College class, so I thought that

01:55:19.380 - 01:55:26.000

was interesting. Doris: Right. Do you suppose your husband told him what you did? Ruth: I do not think he did.

01:55:26.800 - 01:55:37.540

Doris: Right. How do you spend your time now, Doris? Ruth: I quilt and I go to Aqua Science. I have Aqua Science classes three times a week.

01:55:40.060 - 01:56:00.040

Our next luncheon I'm going to talk about the WASPs. What do you and Bill do together? Another gal and I started a dinner club here. Once a month we get together and have dinner at the club.

01:56:02.120 - 01:56:21.700

We started out with twenty-seven or twenty-eight, I think, and we've kind of lost quite a But my girlfriend has Alzheimer's, so she is out of it completely. So it's left up to me. So I'm trying to keep it going.

01:56:22.580 - 01:56:39.460

And we enjoy each other. We have the Army, Air Force, and it's not any one service. And we have a good time. Do you have your own clubhouse here?

01:56:40.060 - 01:56:49.980

Yes, we do. We meet there. Each one of us pays for our own drinks and our own dinner, so nobody's involved with that.

01:56:50.500 - 01:57:06.420

We just all pay our own on our own chit. We order what we want. That's my commitment for Saturday night. I told you that I had a commitment, and Bill and I are going to be hosts this month.

01:57:09.560 - 01:57:28.640

As far as your children go, how often do you have family reunion type things? Not often, because they are too stretched out. Judy was just here for a few days, and Bonnie, our youngest one, was here just overnight. She was down in Pensacola with a group.

01:57:30.280 - 01:57:48.040

Jeff, we do not see much of Jeff, and he is the closest one, but he calls. He calls us regularly, he calls us once a week anyway. Holly calls us, she is the one up in New York State. So we communicate by cell phone usually.

01:57:51.820 - 01:58:08.420

What is a Christmas like now for you? For the two of us. My grandson is going to be married on the 10th of May up in Jacksonville, Sawgrass. Most of the family is coming, so that will be nice.

01:58:09.090 - 01:58:14.440

The cousins. Kelly: Tell me about your grandchildren. Rist? Rist: Okay, I have eight.

01:58:15.980 - 01:58:31.340

One of them is married. She was married on Valentine's Day this year. She works in the Justice Department over in Pensacola with troubled youth, and so does her husband.

01:58:34.100 - 01:58:48.400

The other oldest one is single. She is a chemical engineer. She does consulting work up in Washington. Brent who is the next one, he is the one that is getting married over in May, the 10th of

01:58:48.520 - 01:59:07.700

May. He works for a cemetery company up in Jacksonville, but he is a financial wizard. When he was little, he was not five yet, he came over to my birthday and he said, "Grandma, how old are you?"

01:59:07.700 - 01:59:29.900

And I said, "Sixteen." And he said, "Grandma, you were sixteen last year." But he has been really good at math, so I think he has a CPA. And then his brother was married a couple of years ago, and he is up in Delaware.

01:59:30.000 - 01:59:50.320

He works for the state of Delaware. He graduated in computer engineering. And the fourth child of Holly, she has another semester, I think, to go to college to finish. And Judy has one child, she is the chemical engineer, and Bonnie has three, she has two

01:59:50.320 - 02:00:08.140

in college. The oldest one has been in computers since he was young. His father is a research meteorologist at the University of Wisconsin, so he has had computers at home since the kids were little.

02:00:09.060 - 02:00:25.960

So Ben, the oldest one, went to the University of Wisconsin up in Eau Claire, and the university hired him to take care of all their computers. So he's taken care of all their computers. So that's him.

02:00:26.140 - 02:00:38.680

The second one is going to the University of Wisconsin in Madison next semester. He's going to be a mechanical engineer. And the third one is a tenth grader. So that's eight of them.

02:00:40.680 - 02:00:59.420

As you look back, is there anything in your life that if you had it to do over, you would do differently? Well, a lot of things I'd do better. But I told Bill just recently that I'm glad that we moved like we did.

02:01:01.140 - 02:01:20.320

I found that I could be acclimated to a new situation easily and made a lot of friends. It was a good life to have. I would not change that. What makes you happy now?

02:01:21.300 - 02:01:30.060

Quilting. I like to quilt. In fact, I just bought some material to start a new one. What are you going to do with these quilts?

02:01:30.220 - 02:02:01.480

I give them away to my kids. A couple years ago, my husband said, "You make quilts for everybody except me." So, I found a pattern I like, and I made it. They look like bombers to me. Do you remember, well you would, do you remember D-Day when the sky was black with airplanes. You know, it's never going to be like that again. And so I'll show you

02:02:01.540 - 02:02:17.100

my quilt. It's a D-Day quilt. That's what I call it, D-Day Armada. Do you piece together the tops? By hand. By hand. And then how long does it take you from the time you start a quilt until you

02:02:17.120 - 02:02:26.840

get it quilted? If it's a big one, it takes me a year. Do you have frames for it? I have a little hoop like this and it's great because I can sit it right on my lap.

02:02:30.080 - 02:02:51.100

I said when we're through, come on out here, okay? We'll call you. Let me ask you Doris, as you look back over your life, of all the things that you have done, aside from having your children, what is the one thing that you have done that you

02:02:50.980 - 02:03:04.140

are most proud of? What else but WASP? I feel like I put myself through something that, well, so many washed out, and I made it.

02:03:05.440 - 02:03:25.060

I am just so pleased with myself. When somebody tells me I am one of an elite, like this Marine fellow told me, that kind of surprised me. I didn't feel like an elite person, but he said, "You know you are one."

02:03:25.060 - 02:03:48.880

I feel like we did something good. We made it understood that women are not dummies, that we can do what we want. I'm so glad that we did, that proved that we could do it. These gals that are flying now, I envy them.

02:03:51.060 - 02:04:14.220

I told this one gal that I met that I envied her, and she said, "I envy you." So that surprised me, because we started out. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? Well, I think it's like this Navy pilot woman who wears our miniature wings on her

02:04:14.000 - 02:04:44.720

her finger that she knows where we came from, that we were there. It was important, not only to us but to our country. I think so many of us felt like, well, one, nothing can ever happen to me, but two, we're doing something for our country, which at that point, there glad I did it.

02:04:46.500 - 02:05:14.980

Let me ask you, throughout life we all have good times and bad, and happy times and sad times, and you must have had some of those. What has gotten you through those sad times? I guess love of family and having some great children and a great husband.

02:05:20.980 - 02:05:43.160

We struggled, and I'm glad we did. I'm glad we didn't have everything handed to us, because I don't think he appreciated within. If you want to know what I think about to tell kids is to dream and don't ever give

02:05:43.260 - 02:05:54.840

up on your dreams. That's the way I feel about it. Let me ask you this last question. What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP program itself?

02:05:55.300 - 02:06:12.460

Well, I know a lot of people don't like her. She was abrasive at times, but I think she was a gung-ho person and one that we wouldn't have done it without her. It couldn't have been done without her.

02:06:14.640 - 02:06:38.780

I think where she came from, you've heard the story of her youth, I think she was a marvelous person. So I am glad I was associated with her. Is there anything that I have left out, any of your life that you would like to tell us

02:06:38.900 - 02:06:50.920

about, to share? I have one little story to tell you. When we were in Stockton, the only two WASPs on the field were my girlfriend Delaney and myself, and we always flew together.

02:06:51.940 - 02:07:05.080

Well we went up one day and we lost an engine. Well that airplane does not fly on one engine. So we were not too far from the field so we called in and asked for a straight in approach to the field.

02:07:05.480 - 02:07:23.900

Yet they had a mat. It wasn't runways, it was a mat. So Delaney's the one that called and she was very calm and soft about it. I swear the tower went berserk.

02:07:24.240 - 02:07:44.700

They called the CO, the OD, the ambulance, the nurse, everybody. Then it went very quiet on the radio after they had called everybody and they were watching us come in. All of a sudden on the radio came this little voice that said, "A woman's place is in

02:07:44.700 - 02:08:03.840

the home." I don't know who said it, but somebody up in the air. So we had a big laugh on that, and we came in just fine. So we enjoyed our time there.

02:08:04.780 - 02:08:29.840

Do you have anything, Nancy, you want to ask? Used up your book? No, but it just helps. No, didn't use it all up. Only the really good stuff. There's a lot of good stuff. There's a lot of great stuff. I can't tell you how much we appreciate it.

02:08:30.560 - 02:08:50.720

Let me ask you this. Inasmuch as you know what we're trying to do, what is your opinion of what we're trying to do? You mean having the museum in Sweetwater? And getting all of these histories before it is too late. I think that is fantastic to get them, because we are dropping off so fast.

02:08:52.840 - 02:09:14.460

I think there are, well when we came back from the last reunion, I think I counted there were eighteen of us out of forty-nine. And this gal from the Air Force that came to visit us here, I took my little blue book and I showed her my class.

02:09:15.100 - 02:09:29.080

And I have written "D" after the ones that are deceased. And she said, "Are they all gone?" And I said, "Yes, they are." And I do not know how we are so lucky.

02:09:30.680 - 02:09:44.320

We are blessed. Well and every story is important. Yes, yes. Everyone has a different approach.

02:09:48.460 - 02:10:01.920

Did I tell you about the hairnets? Did you have to wear hairnets? Well, when we first came, they told us we had to have hairnets because they did not hair blowing in the instructor's face.

02:10:03.220 - 02:10:16.660

So we got these big hair nuts and put on. The gals with short hair decided that was a great place for their cigarettes and lighter and lipstick and comb, and they put it all in the back there. Well, that lasted about two days.

02:10:17.460 - 02:10:45.680

And then they ordered white turbans for all of us, and they were hot and dirty. But that tickled me because some of these gals with real boyish bobs would have all these things tucked in the back of their hairnets. But I still think—Glamour Girls we were not, but I think some really great girls were

02:10:45.720 - 02:10:58.900

in the group. Did you have anything? I want to show you my quilts before you go. You don't have to do that.