00:00:00.100 - 00:00:11.620

Kelly: Sure story. I found filling that thing out when I filled it out and I thought of things later, "Oh, I forgot to put this in, I forgot to put that in." So I went back and did it over again.

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Litz: No, it looks very thorough and that is going to be a big help. And that is a database that people can go to if, for example, they want to know something about the B-26, what it was used for. they can just pull up B26 and there's your name and they can go to wherever you have

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said about that for example. So that's what that database is really. >> Well, wait till I wipe my eye. >> And I should make Dory feel right at home and say, "We have speed. We're rolling." Okay. >> Ready? Uh-huh. Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America.

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Today we are interviewing Dori Martin. She was a WASP class 43-8. We are in her home in Sun City, West Arizona. Today is the 15th of November, 2001.

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The videographer is Nancy Parrish. Okay, Dori, if you will begin by giving us your name, your full name, when and where you were born, and we'll go from there. Doree Marie Martin My full name is Doree Marie Martin.

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I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in the 1920s. Tell me about your mom and dad. My father was in the mining machinery business when we had moved to Colorado, and my mother was a homemaker.

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How long did you live in Pennsylvania before you moved to Colorado? Well, we went back and forth. We lived in Pennsylvania about three years, then we moved to Denver, lived there a few years, then back to Pennsylvania, then back to Denver, then to Chicago.

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Just traveled around quite a bit. Right. Was he with a company that moved him? No, it was his own company, Mining Machinery.

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As a young child, recall for me about your grandparents. Where did your grandparents live? Well I only had one grandparent, a grandmother, my mother's mother. And my father's parents lived in Germany and I never knew them. And I barely knew my mother's father because he

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passed on before I was old enough to know him. And then where did your grandmother, that grandmother live? She lived with my mother's sister. Were you able to visit her occasionally?

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family. And she would come and visit us in Denver too. Right. What do you recall about her that would be special? Well she was always wonderful, understanding. She would take time with me, play little games with me. We used to play poker together. And she just was just wonderful with me all the

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time. I adored her. Where did you start school? That was in Denver. Do you recall starting school?

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How far did you live from the school? Just a few blocks. We walked. In those days, they didn't have school buses.

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I skipped grades all the way through high school. I skipped the second grade, then I went to another school because we had moved again. Then I skipped a grade there. Then we went to Pennsylvania and I skipped a grade there.

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Let me ask you about elementary school. Do you remember any of your teachers that might have made an impression on you in grade school? Not in grade school.

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As you were growing up as a child, what was a Christmas like in your home? It was very nice. It was wonderful. We always had a big celebration and I usually got almost everything I wanted.

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Did you make a list for Santa? Oh yes. We got everything that, or I got everything that my parents could afford. I was an only child.

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And Christmas dinner? My mother always cooked Christmas dinner and my mother was a wonderful cook. Anything she cooked was absolutely delicious. I wish I was the same way, but I'm not.

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Right. And when your grandmother lived with you, would she get involved with the cooking? Oh yes, yes. Okay. Where were you then when you went to junior high? Well in junior high I went to one grade in Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania. Then we moved back

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to Denver and I went to two different schools there. Kent School with Ruth Humphreys, that is where I knew her for two years. And then we moved to Chicago and that is where I graduated from high school. Dori, what effect do you think moving so many times did you have lasting friendships?

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No, that was the real problem. I didn't have any lifetime friends or growing up with the same people all the time. It was always an adjustment. I was always the new kid. As children will do, I was always teased everywhere I went, but I got used to it. Academically, it didn't seem to bother you.

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No, it didn't bother me because I would keep skipping grades because I knew all the work. And they said it's the best they could do at the time instead of letting me go on and finish early was, well, keep her out of school for a year until she grows up emotionally with the rest of the children.

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And so I was kept out a year here and a year there and a year over there and skipped probably about three grades. Do you recall in junior high, for example, what your social life would be like? Lane: Yes, at Kent School.

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We had small classes. It was a private girls' school. They would invite the whole class to the country club for dances. I wasn't the least bit interested.

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I didn't want to go. I wasn't interested in little school boys. All I wanted was a horse, and I finally got a horse. I was so thrilled, and she took up my whole time. She was my psychiatrist. I'd talk to her, and she'd talk to me. We'd

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go on long rides, and I showed her she was a thoroughbred jumper, hunter. I never had any trouble. I just didn't socialize too much except with people who rode horses. Did you enter competition with her? Oh yes, national competition. I was the champion, the Colorado State Champion under 18 years

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of age for three years in all kinds of riding, hunting and jumping, western, bareback, English, in the national shows, things like that. And then when you moved to Chicago, what did you do with your horse? We left her in Denver. She was in pasture. Took care of her there. But I did get to ride

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with the Chicago, the Long Meadow Hunt Club. They gave me a horse. My father said, "Give her a real tough horse." They said, "Well, this horse is going to refuse jumps. He's really bad." So, I talked to him a while. I gave him a few carrots, and we chatted. He was perfect. He was beautiful. We had a wonderful ride.

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Growing up, who were your role models? I really don't know that I had any. I really can't think of any. Your parents, perhaps? Well, I didn't want to get married and settle down in a rose-covered cottage.

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I thought that would be dull as could be. So, growing up, mostly I stayed with my horse and shoulder and everything, trained horses, rode horses for other people in the shows. Then in Chicago I swam in a water ballet.

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That was kind of fun. Was that a part of your school activity? No. No.

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So, in high school, how many years of high school did you spend in one school? Two years in Denver, that was probably the most. Do you recall any outside activities associated with school, anything other than academics? Speech, drama, music, sports?

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I enjoyed the sports, but that was about all. I was more interested in riding my horse than going to school. I enjoyed the languages, French and Spanish, things like that. In high school, do you recall any teachers that were influential on you?

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Yes, my Spanish teacher was very nice, very compassionate, and my French teacher, and those were about the only ones. As a student, what were your dreams? I couldn't decide what I wanted to do.

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When I was younger, I was going to go join the circus, and I got over that. Then I was going to be a horse trainer forever and ever, and I got over that. And of course, the WASP came along, and I wanted to fly, which was absolutely wonderful. I wanted to be an airline pilot when I was all through.

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And at that time, of course, they wouldn't even consider a woman, even though we were qualified. Kelly: Okay. In high school, did you go to a high school prom?

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Landsberg: No. I was in Chicago at the time. I didn't know anyone, and I wasn't interested in anyone there anyway. Kelly: Okay.

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Tell me about your high school graduation. Landsberg: Well, I wasn't there. I don't know where I was. I did something else.

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Maybe I was swimming. so they just sent me my diploma. It was a big public high school, hundreds of people, and I don't think anybody missed me and I didn't miss it. Kelly: What kind of a student were you?

00:11:00.470 - 00:11:21.980

Lowry: I was a good student if I wanted to be. The trouble with school with me at that time was that the teacher would say something and I would get it the first time. Then she She would go over and over and over again for somebody asking another question until I got so bored I couldn't stand it.

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But I was a good student if I wanted to be. Right. Before you graduated from high school, what were your plans? Did you know what you were going to do when you graduated?

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No, I didn't know. They wanted me to—the principal of the school said that, "Oh, this girl must go to Vassar. She absolutely has to go to Vassar, get a good education." My father was against that.

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After that, after high school, I won a beautiful figure contest, most beautiful figure in the United States and Canada. They gave me a trip to California with all the trimmings and visiting the studios and showed us around and all that.

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So from high school then I went to Pasadena Playhouse to study dramatics. Do you know who sponsored that contest? Yes, Catalina Swimsuits. So we appeared in swimsuits everywhere.

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And did your mom and dad approve of your doing that? Oh yes, they didn't mind. So you went to Pasadena. Did you enroll in school at Pasadena?

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Pasadena Playhouse, yes. Tell me about some of the courses that you took there. Well there were some acting courses, of course, and behind the scenes courses, directing stage sets and things like that. We would put on shows regularly for an audience.

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And who was in charge of that playhouse at the time? I'm trying to think of his name. I think it was Gilmore, but I couldn't be sure. Did any of the students that you were with at that school go on to become famous? This Eleanor Parker, I do not know if you have heard of her.

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Marilyn Maxwell, she was quite a star, lovely girl. She wanted me to teach her how to ride. George Reeves, who was Superman, finally committed suicide. Kelly: When you went to Pasadena, where did you live?

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I lived at a dorm. They had a large house that—oh, I don't know how many girls were there, but we all roomed together in different rooms. There must have been twenty of us or so with a house mother.

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When you were doing these courses, were you more interested behind the camera or in front of the camera? In front. Can I wipe my eyes?

00:14:20.850 - 00:14:30.480

Absolutely. Alright, rolling again. Okay. At Pasadena, do you recall any specific play that stands out in your mind that you participated

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in? Stage Door. That had a large cast. And that's about the one I remember most.

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There were several very funny things that happened. Of course, we had all the history of theater and everything like that. I had this one scene with this young man, very handsome, and he was supposed to hold my hands and tell me how much he loved me. We were sitting across from each other and he took my hands and he was sweating like the devil. His hands were

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shaking like this. I couldn't help but laugh. I couldn't get through that scene. So, it Ruffet times. When you would perform in these plays, were they always at the university or did you take them on the road? Rose: No, they were at the playhouse there. They had a theater there.

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Kelly: At that point in your life, what were your goals? Rose: Well, I was thinking about being an actress and I did a little of that at that time for Paramount Pictures. I really didnít know what I wanted to do. I knew that maybe this is, I donít want to brag, but I felt I could do anything I wanted to do. But I

00:15:51.280 - 00:16:02.440

didnít know what I wanted to do. How long did you stay at that playhouse? Was that a two-year college? Two year. Were they having the Rose Bowl Parade then?

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Oh yes. And, wasn't that college involved? Rose: I don't think they were, as I remember. No.

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Varney: Because now they have the Rose Bowl Queen each year. Rose: Oh, they had that, yes. But the Pasadena Playhouse itself wasn't involved. Varney: Right.

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When you were at the Pasadena Playhouse, what was your social life like? Rose: It was fun. We were busy all day long. It was eight hours a day.

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And we didn't really do much in the evenings, sit around and talk, and talk about the plays, what we were doing. Right. During the summer, how did you spend your summer?

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I went back to Denver, back to my horse. Okay. And at that point, what was your dad doing? He was semi-retired then.

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Okay. And when you graduated from the Pasadena Playhouse, what did you do? Let me see from there. Well for one summer I was a riding instructor at a girls camp in Wisconsin.

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Did you have any unusual experiences there? Well I could not get along with the management because they had this small corral for the horses and the poor horses did not have enough to eat. And every single night they would break out of their corral so they could get something

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to eat. And I told them this and I would have to go and round them up and bring them back so the girls could ride, almost every morning. I told them this and I said, "You'll have to give those horses more to eat or they're

00:17:43.000 - 00:17:54.140

going to break out every night." But they didn't do it. So right after that I got the notice that I had won this contest, this beautiful figure contest.

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I was much slimmer at the time. So I left that. Let me see, then after that, that's when I learned to fly to join the WASP. Kelly: What made you want to learn to fly?

00:18:13.320 - 00:18:31.840

Beall: Well, I had several boyfriends who were airline captains, and I wanted to be with them, so I wanted to learn to fly. Could I ask you when you became interested in boys? I would say about 17.

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I wasn't interested in high school boys. I was interested in real men who had good jobs, who were real men and had done something in life. So that's when I was going with the airline pilots and test pilots and things like that. When is the first time that you realized that you wanted to learn to fly?

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When I first heard about it. And I knew these pilots and they said they would teach me, which they did and I think I had excellent instruction. Where did you go for your first, for your lessons?

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Denver. Do you recall your first instructor? Yes, he was one of my special boyfriends. He was a captain on Continental Airlines and his friend was also a good friend who was also a captain on Continental Airlines. The

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two of them taught me to fly. What kind of airplane? A Luscombe. Do you recall your solo?

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Oh yes, it went very well. Kelly: When did you first hear about a training program for the WASP? Lowry: My father told me about it when I was out in California, and that is why I came back to Denver to learn to fly.

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Kelly: Where were you and how did it make you feel when you heard about Pearl Harbor? Oh, I was just horrified. When I was in California, I wanted to do something in the war. I didn't know what, but I wanted to do something. I tried to donate blood and they said, "Well, you're not old enough. You have to be, I think, twenty-one at the time or something."

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I couldn't do that. Then I heard about the flying and I thought, "Well, that's perfect. That would be perfect." How did you contact someone with the WASP organization? They were coming through Denver giving interviews.

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I met with this woman, who I later became great friends with, my second husband. This woman's husband were friends, and he was a pilot. This was his wife. She was a friend, too.

00:21:03.360 - 00:21:26.820

Her name was Mike Howard, and she interviewed me, and I passed, evidently. What did your mom and dad think about your flying? My father was thrilled to pieces, and my mother worried. After your interview, did you know any other girls who were taking flying lessons?

00:21:28.380 - 00:21:49.520

Lowdermilk Honstein No. I had very few girlfriends. I usually just dated the men. Kelly: Smart. Once you had your interview with this person, then what was the next step? Did you have to take a physical? Lowdermilk Honstein Yes.

00:21:50.100 - 00:22:16.920

Kelly: Do you recall that physical? Lowry Field in Denver. I suppose they sent me papers or something to sign, I do not remember. I reported to Sweetwater right after the Fourth of July in '43. How did you get from Denver down to Sweetwater? I do not recall.

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What was your feeling about what this program was for? Did you have an understanding of why they were going to train women to fly? Steele: Oh, yes. So that we could replace the men who didn't want to do these dull flying jobs, and they

00:22:40.360 - 00:22:56.480

could go on to combat or do something else. While we could do testing, you know, after engine replacements and things like that. Okay. What was the attitude of those airline pilots when they found out that you were going to

00:22:57.260 - 00:23:08.440

really be a pilot? Oh, they were happy about it. They were all for it. So when you got to Avenger Field, what was your first impression of that airbase?

00:23:09.060 - 00:23:28.360

Well, he looked kind of barren and dusty and windy. Who were your bay mates? Peg McNamara was my special friend. They've all passed away by now.

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There were six of us in each bay and alphabetically we were grouped. I had a lot of good friends. I had Frankie McNamara, or McInerney her name was, Peggy McNamara, Helen Trigg, Betty Wright, Doris Williams.

00:23:54.580 - 00:24:13.500

They would move the girls around. As some of them washed out, they would move to a different bay. Until finally our class filled one string of bays. There were eight bays and we slept on army cots.

00:24:14.980 - 00:24:34.460

And there were six girls to a bay so there were 48 bays, 48 girls, excuse me. And we were quite a small class. When you first started training, what did you fly? The Fairchild PT-19, and I remember this very well.

00:24:35.160 - 00:24:49.320

The instructor got in and showed us—there were about five of us to each instructor. He got in and showed us how to start it. Then he got out of the seat again and said, "Now, one of you girls get in and start it."

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He pointed to me and said, "You get in and do it." I went in and turned the switch. I was so thrilled at all that power in that engine. I think it was 175 horsepower.

00:25:00.760 - 00:25:12.700

It seemed just tremendous. It was a big thrill. Kelly: Do you recall your first solo in that aircraft? Steele: Yes, about the same.

00:25:14.090 - 00:25:36.340

Kelly: What was training like? What constituted your training at Avenger Field? We had primary training, which at that time was in the PT-19 single-engine Fairchild. I think it was 175 horsepower. And then of course we had, we would

00:25:36.480 - 00:26:04.240

fly half of the day and then we would have ground school, learning all the systems, the fuel systems, all the systems, the mechanical systems. And everyone, of course, would rather fly, but we had to take the ground school, too. And then we had basic training in a BT-13 or 15, something like that.

00:26:05.180 - 00:26:29.860

I think that was 450 horsepower. And it used to be called the "Vaulty Vibrator" because it was always shaking and everything rattling around and just making an awful racket. And then we had the AT-6, which was North American—what did they call it?

00:26:34.400 - 00:26:45.420

Anyway, it was a single engine. Everybody all the WASPs loved the Six. It had 650 horsepower. You could do all sorts of acrobatics with it, and you could do everything in the world,

00:26:46.060 - 00:27:06.180

slow rolls, snap rolls, any kind of acrobatics. Everybody loved that airplane. That was the final training in single engine. Then we had twin-engine training in the UC-78, which they called the "Bamboo Bomber."

00:27:06.320 - 00:27:22.760

All made out of fabric of some kind, rattled too. That was alright. I like single-engine, but twin-engine was fun too. Kelly: Of all those airplanes, what was your favorite?

00:27:22.820 - 00:27:26.980

Of the training planes? The A-26. Okay. Okay.

00:27:28.700 - 00:27:48.920

What was the biggest adjustment you had to make when you went into training? Living in the heat. I was there in July and August with the sandstorms and the heat and we would take our cots outside of the bay at night and sleep outside because it was a little cool.

00:27:50.260 - 00:28:08.520

And for air conditioning, there was no air conditioning of course, we would get sheets and dampen them in the shower and put them over ourselves to keep cool. And it really helped, it helped us go to sleep. And what were your uniforms like in training?

00:28:09.640 - 00:28:30.900

Well we didn't really have a uniform, we had khaki slacks and a white shirt. And then for flying we wore the zoot suits, which the men—were all men's sizes. They were all way too big for us. Kelly: While you were in training, did you have any time off on weekends or anything?

00:28:31.280 - 00:28:43.100

What did you do? Lowry: Yes, once in a while. I had a—I guess I had my little car there. Once in a while we would drive to Dallas and go shopping, things like that, or we would

00:28:42.980 - 00:29:04.560

go downtown. And they had a special room upstairs from somewhere, I can't remember where, where we could congregate and maybe have a drink. Because Sweetwater was dry at the time. I guess it still is, I don't know. Of all the ground school courses, was there any one particular subject that gave you problems?

00:29:05.180 - 00:29:16.480

No, no. We learned all about the engines and the mechanical things and all that. Van Buren: Morse code, was that a— Steele: Yes, we had Morse code.

00:29:16.640 - 00:29:36.340

Van Buren: Okay. And why was it important to have Morse code, do you recall? Steele: Well, of course, in those days when you were flying on the beam on the airways, You had your N and your A to tell whether you were on the beam or to the right of the

00:29:36.440 - 00:29:47.600

beam or to the left of the beam. So it was really navigational. Navigational, yes. Do you recall auxiliary fields where you might have trained some also?

00:29:48.080 - 00:30:01.040

Yes, they were scattered around the desert. And how would you get out to that auxiliary field? You'd fly out there. But there would be some students that would need to get there another way, right?

00:30:02.070 - 00:30:22.620

Well, some of the planes had two people, or I guess they would drive out in an old truck. Cattle truck? Yes, a real old truck. When you finished primary, did you have some time off there to go home or anything?

00:30:22.940 - 00:30:38.020

No, we went right on to basic. Did any of your bay wash out in primary? Yes, several did. In fact, of our whole class, we started with 96 girls and when we graduated we had just

00:30:38.100 - 00:30:45.780

half, 48. How did it make you feel when somebody washed out? I felt very sorry for them. I really did.

00:30:45.880 - 00:31:02.080

They felt so bad and they were unhappy about it, but it probably was for the best because they could have hurt themselves. While you were there, did Ms. Cochran come to visit? Yes, briefly.

00:31:03.220 - 00:31:13.620

I didn't get to know her at the time. Can we stop while I wipe my eye? We're back. I'm not getting too confused. Do you recall where you ate and about the food?

00:31:14.420 - 00:31:30.320

In training? Yes, we had a mess hall, which was very aptly named. And it's all I can remember is we had a lot of macaroni and cheese all the time. Macaroni and cheese.

00:31:31.620 - 00:31:48.120

I guess there was plenty of food, but it wasn't very good. As far as personnel on the air base that were in charge of the air base and the instructors, what was the makeup as far as civilians or Army, Air Force? Who was in charge?

00:31:49.480 - 00:32:12.280

With the flying, the civilians would instruct us, the men would instruct us, but for the check rides and to see if you passed the course, the Army, we would have an Army check. Kelly: As far as the commanding officer and others? Lowry: The commanding officer was Major Urban.

00:32:12.380 - 00:32:27.860

I remember him. He was a very, very nice man, very pleasant. Did you ever, during your training, get enough pink slips that you had to take an Army check ride?

00:32:29.610 - 00:32:42.380

I don't think I ever got any pink slips. You mean an extra check ride? No. During your training, did you get some cross country time?

00:32:43.000 - 00:32:56.460

Yes. Can you recall any of those flights? Yes, we would, a whole bunch of us, maybe ten at a time, would take off practically at the same time, right after each other.

00:32:57.000 - 00:33:13.380

And it always amazed me, they all disappeared and we would all wind up at the same place. I never could figure that out. And they were very good to us in Texas. They put their name in the town on the water tower.

00:33:14.400 - 00:33:33.680

So if we didn't know where we were, we could circle the water tower and find out. We went to San Angelo and Big Springs and Amarillo, all around in that area. Eventually, it became winter. How did your flying gear change?

00:33:34.980 - 00:33:46.060

Well, it wasn't that cold when I was there. It was about the same. We just wore a leather jacket. But it wasn't fleece-lined or anything like that.

00:33:48.360 - 00:33:57.720

Tell me about instrument flying. What do you do to learn instruments? Oh, I love instrument flying. I went back for a special course at Sweetwater.

00:33:59.120 - 00:34:14.600

I think it was, well, it was the next year in August, another hot month. And I learned to always trust your instruments, which is hard to do. You find yourself leaning this way because you think you're not straight and level or leaning the other way.

00:34:15.860 - 00:34:37.620

My instructor said, "Always trust your instruments. Even if you think that you're flying sideways, look at the instruments." I love flying instruments. When I had my instrument check ride, I got on the airways beam and flew a little bit

00:34:37.700 - 00:34:44.020

on that. We got all through, went through the whole thing. In fact, I think I even landed under instruments. He talked me down.

00:34:45.460 - 00:34:59.000

And he said, "Well, I only have one thing to say." He said, "You didn't check out from the beam often enough, whether you were an A or N." And I said, "Well, I knew where I was, so why should I check out?" And he said, "Well, that's not the point.

00:34:59.230 - 00:35:17.120

You should check out regardless." But I loved instrument flying. What was the difference in your training and that of the male cadets who were in flight training? So far as I know there was no difference, except the girls didn't get combat training of course,

00:35:17.940 - 00:35:37.580

and they didn't get formation flying, although we did a little of that ourselves. On your own? On our own. In advanced training, what was your goal as far as what you wanted to do when you graduated?

00:35:38.290 - 00:35:49.760

Steele I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Kelly And were some of the girls who had already graduated flying fighters at that time? Steele Yes, some of the previous classes.

00:35:50.140 - 00:36:12.460

Kelly Is there anything about your training that I have left out that you would like to tell us about? Well, some rather funny things sometimes in primary training when we first started. Sometimes the girls would forget to fasten their seatbelts, and they would do a slow

00:36:12.580 - 00:36:30.600

roll and fall right out. Sometimes even the instructors did that, which was a big joke then. Outside of that, it was just wonderful going on to more powerful airplanes and doing more maneuvers and more takeoffs and landings and things.

00:36:33.820 - 00:36:53.000

Were there any fatalities while you were there? Yes. The girls in, I think it was W5 or 6, were flying a UC-78, and it just fell apart, I guess.

00:36:54.820 - 00:37:26.740

heard about that, I didn't know about it. And then one of the girls in my class, it was very, very unfortunate. It was in primary training with the Fairchild open cockpit. And the night before, we had our cots outside sleeping, and we were talking. She said, "Dorrie, I'm afraid to do this tomorrow. She said, I have to go up and do solo spins. I said,

00:37:26.800 - 00:37:47.180

well, don't be afraid. You've trained. You've done it with your instructor. You can do it. She went up and did it, and she spun right into the ground. She was killed. Do you remember her name? Catherine, oh, I know it as well as I know my own name. Can we stop?

00:37:47.820 - 00:37:52.980

Uh-huh. I think it's good. Kelly: And the girl that was killed was? Lowry: Catherine Lawrence.

00:37:53.300 - 00:38:14.860

Kelly: How did that affect you and the others in your bay? Lowry: We were terribly sad. Everybody was crying and they played taps that night. We were all weeping. She had just told me the night before that she was afraid. And being afraid possibly she shouldn't have gone up and done it.

00:38:17.120 - 00:38:32.920

Did you wonder, have you wondered why she was afraid? I wondered, I didn't know why she could be afraid. Because she had been through all that training with her instructor and there was no reason to be afraid, she knew the procedure, what to do.

00:38:34.340 - 00:38:50.160

And I don't know why she was afraid. Are you aware of any benefits her family received when she was killed? I don't know. I understand none of the girls' families received any benefits of any sort.

00:38:51.820 - 00:39:05.940

Did one of your classmates accompany her body home, are you aware? I really do not know. Did they have any kind of a service at Avenger, any memorial service? No.

00:39:08.360 - 00:39:26.700

Before you graduated, were you given a choice of what your assignment would be after graduation? Lane: We were given a choice. I did not get mine, but we were given a choice. Kelly: What did you request?

00:39:27.100 - 00:39:46.800

Lane: I requested fighter pilot, single-engine fighters, P-51s or something like that, P-47s. Can you describe your graduation? Well, it was very brief and very quick. It was inside, it was so close to Christmas and we weren't sure we were going to be home

00:39:46.880 - 00:39:57.640

for Christmas. And so, as I remember, it was just very quick. We all got our wings and that was it. Were there any celebrities or big generals who attended?

00:39:58.500 - 00:40:04.000

No, not that I remember. But Miss Cochran? No. She was not at your graduation?

00:40:05.200 - 00:40:27.000

Kelly: Okay. So you had your orders. Did you have some time off then and what did you do? Reed: Yes, we had I think a week, maybe two weeks off. So I went back to Denver and attended all the Christmas parties and had a wonderful time. Kelly: What was that Christmas like in your home?

00:40:27.260 - 00:40:44.720

Reed: Oh, it was a lot of fun. Everybody was celebrating. My parents were always giving parties and going to parties. I didn't see too many of my own friends, but I went to all their parties and it was fun. And at the end of your leave time, where did you report?

00:40:45.760 - 00:41:12.300

To Douglas, Arizona. And what was your assignment at Douglas? My assignment there, it was the, I believe, the largest twin-engine advanced training base in the country for cadets. My assignment was testing, cross-country ferrying, going

00:41:12.760 - 00:41:27.460

places and bringing planes that were wrecked or just barely making it, bringing them back to Douglas to be repaired, and administrative flying, flying generals around, wanting to see things. Where did you live?

00:41:28.780 - 00:41:40.360

We lived right on the field in the civilian quarters. They did not know where to put us. Kelly: Okay, I think we are going to stop. Change the tape?

00:41:41.500 - 00:41:48.500

Fresh tape. Okay. Good. Moving right along.

00:41:52.960 - 00:42:03.900

If you were in hell, how often did you go across the floor? Okay, I'm old. But I don't think that's of historical importance. I don't know.

00:42:04.150 - 00:42:20.680

Kelly: When you arrived at Douglas, were there already WASP stationed there? Litz: There was one WASP, and then one other girl from my class was there, too, went with me. On these engineering test flights, tell me what you would do.

00:42:21.960 - 00:42:48.500

Well, we would check out all the movements of the airplane, all the controls, stalling speeds, takeoff and landings, the instruments, just the whole thing to see that it was airworthy. Do you recall any outstanding things that might have happened at Douglas, perhaps on on a cross-country flight when you were transporting officers someplace else?

00:42:48.840 - 00:43:11.420

Laney: No, in transporting people they usually would fly over to Fort Huachuca, which was a radar station, intelligence station, over the hill. And I remember one very interesting thing. I had one UC-78 that I was taking up after two engine changes.

00:43:12.940 - 00:43:30.720

Of course, we always had a mechanic with us, a crew chief. I sat in the pilot seat and he sat in the right seat. We had just taken off and gotten up just about high enough I got to pulling the wheels up, and the right engine quit.

00:43:33.020 - 00:43:49.800

I don't know how high it was, maybe 300 feet. I was doing my single-engine procedures, and I looked over at him. I said, "Don't touch anything." I was afraid he'd grab the wheel or something, and then we would spin in.

00:43:50.540 - 00:43:58.820

So he didn't. He sat there, and his feet were braced like this. He was terrified. After that, the left engine quit.

00:43:59.640 - 00:44:15.780

Both of them quit like that. So I could not do much, there was nothing I could do, I could not get back to the airport. So I just went straight ahead, did the best I could, landed wheels up in a sort of softish field, not too much cactus or anything.

00:44:17.100 - 00:44:38.920

We had a fine landing. He looked, he was absolutely terrible, a great big sergeant, about six foot three. We were sitting there and I said, "Well, I guess we better get out because it might catch on fire. The UC-78, he had to run around back of my seat. He ran around there. I saw

00:44:39.000 - 00:44:57.600

those big Army boots go past me, just like a flash. It was very funny, really. So then I got out and we stood there and waited for the ambulance and the people who come to pick us up. And what damage was there to the aircraft?

00:44:58.260 - 00:45:08.380

Well the two props were ruined, of course, and the engine nacelle was ruined. And that was about all. There was not much damage. I suppose underneath there was something.

00:45:08.410 - 00:45:35.600

I have a special report on it that they wrote up. They said what happened was that when they changed the engines, whoever did that had bent the fuel lines inside the wheel nacelle and bent it into the wheel nacelle too far. When the wheels came up, it broke both the fuel lines. Instead of bending it around so

00:45:35.660 - 00:45:49.060

there would be room for the wheels, it just broke both the fuel lines and both engines quit. It was quite a surprise. Did you have to go before a board and explain? I just told them what happened and they looked into it and found out what it was.

00:45:51.560 - 00:46:00.140

I wanted to go back and get my next plane and they wouldn't let me. They said, "Well, you have to go to the hospital and be checked out." I said, "I'm fine. I don't want to go to the hospital."

00:46:01.200 - 00:46:10.260

"Oh, yes, you have to go." So we argued that for a while. So finally he said, "Okay, you don't have to go. You just take the rest of the afternoon off."

00:46:10.260 - 00:46:24.780

Did they ever consider that might have been sabotage? Lane: People have mentioned that, yes. And I've heard there was some sabotage back east with some of the planes and pilots. But I hadn't thought of it.

00:46:24.900 - 00:46:36.480

I thought it was just the mechanics weren't too well trained. I don't think it was sabotage, no. Kelly: At Douglas, what was your social life like? Lane: Well, it was pretty dull.

00:46:39.780 - 00:46:55.440

This wasn't much of a town. We didn't do much. We'd swim a lot. It got so dull that finally a few nights I'd say, "I want to take an AT-9," which I liked,

00:46:55.560 - 00:47:08.140

another nice airplane. It was an all-metal twin-engine airplane, beautiful, a little more difficult to fly. It wasn't as forgiving as a UC-78. You had to really fly it.

00:47:09.100 - 00:47:31.480

why I liked it. And I'd check out an AT-9 at night and shoot night landings because it gave me something to do. And I enjoyed flying it. I think they all thought I was crazy because some people didn't want to fly the plane at all. But I liked it. Do you recall, were you, was there a rule about dating cadets, for example?

00:47:32.340 - 00:47:50.320

In training? No, when you were at Douglas. Yeah, the cadets in training. No, not in training, no dating. So other than the night flying, did you visit the officers club and fraternize with the

00:47:50.360 - 00:48:04.640

officers on the base? Well not too much because I was in love with a colonel who was in combat in the CBI theater. Okay, let's go back and find out where you met the colonel. I met him at a party at home at Christmas.

00:48:06.820 - 00:48:25.640

And I really thought I was in love, so I wasn't much interested in any of the other men around, just socially talking, having a drink or something. Kelly: While you were at Douglas, did you get temporary orders then to go to Sweetwater? Is that when you went to instrument school?

00:48:26.020 - 00:48:33.080

Lane: No, from Douglas. First I went to officer training school. That was the first orders I had. That was in?

00:48:33.480 - 00:48:38.880

Orlando, Florida. Okay. Describe that training. Well, it was quite interesting.

00:48:40.230 - 00:49:04.500

They told us all things that were supposed to be secret things because it was important. We had to identify an aircraft by silhouettes, things like that. They showed us the Norton bomb site, which was very secret at the time, and how to behave like an officer, how to salute, and how to march.

00:49:07.140 - 00:49:24.220

What was the purpose of that training? Well, I think they believed we were going to be taken into the Air Force, militarized, and so we would know how to act. Were these courses, did you also have male pilots in some of those classes, or was it

00:49:24.280 - 00:49:34.560

just WASPs? Let me think. No, they were just WASPs. At that time also, did you have the high altitude chamber?

00:49:34.920 - 00:49:40.240

Did you do that? No, we didn't do that. How long did that course last, do you remember? One month.

00:49:41.560 - 00:49:57.980

How did you get down there, and then how did you get back? I got there by train, met a nice young pilot on the train who took me to dinner in Louisiana to a beautiful restaurant. Then went on down and took the train back again.

00:50:00.200 - 00:50:10.540

When we first got there, we saw these little alligators in the rivers. We said, "Oh, my gosh, those alligators." They were kidding us, of course. They said, "Oh, you can swim in there.

00:50:10.620 - 00:50:23.600

They're just little ones. They won't bother you." Nobody ever did. What did you do for entertainment or leisure time in Orlando?

00:50:24.940 - 00:50:36.660

Not much, just read and study. We had to study a few things. I can't remember what. Then you came back to Arizona?

00:50:37.040 - 00:50:55.180

Back to Arizona. When did you get orders at one point to go someplace else? Yes, I went—let's see where I went next. Well I had a few personal cross-countries where I'd take an AT-6 and fly to Denver

00:50:55.500 - 00:51:04.720

and go around and visit friends and things like that. That was a lot of fun. A lot of harrowing experiences, getting lost. Well, tell us about one of those.

00:51:05.760 - 00:51:22.000

Well, one was in—there was snow on the ground. I can't remember just when it was. And I had an AT-6, and Douglas wasn't on an airway, so I used "Dead Reckoning," which is well-named also.

00:51:24.800 - 00:51:42.460

And I had it all plotted out how I was going to get there, to Denver. And there was a big front moving in, and I thought, "Well, maybe I can fly around it to the west or to the east, rather, get around the front, get to Denver before it hits. So I tried, and there was snow all over the ground.

00:51:43.360 - 00:51:54.300

I flew the time when I was supposed to land in Albuquerque and refuel. No Albuquerque, nothing but snow. I looked all around. I thought, "Oh, my heavens."

00:51:54.300 - 00:52:13.560

Everything looked the same, flat. I did something they told us never to do on a cross country. Never change your direction and go looking for where you're supposed to go. But I saw a little sort of a shadow over to my right in all this snow, and I thought,

00:52:13.640 - 00:52:27.060

"Well, that must be Albuquerque." So I made a 90-degree change of direction, and it was Albuquerque. And so I made that all right. And from there on, this was quite a flight.

00:52:28.180 - 00:52:43.700

From there I was headed for Garden City, Kansas, to try to get around the front, straight up north. I was circling there, and I'm tuned in. I kept calling the tower, no response.

00:52:44.080 - 00:52:54.540

Half the things didn't work half the time, half the instruments weren't working, and I got aggravated. I kept saying, "Garden City Tower, Garden City Tower, do you read me?" Nothing.

00:52:55.420 - 00:53:06.400

Here, all these planes are flying around. So finally I got myself in the pattern on the downwind leg. I said, "Garden City Tower, if you read me, please give me a light and let me know if I'm clear to land.

00:53:06.500 - 00:53:19.400

Give me a green light." So they flashed me a green light and I was clear to land. So I landed. When I got out of the plane, I found out I was in Liberal, Kansas, which was north of

00:53:19.400 - 00:53:26.080

there. The winds had been wrong or picked up or something. Anyway, I was too far up. I was so embarrassed.

00:53:26.080 - 00:53:45.580

Oh, my heavens, I was embarrassed. So from there, this was one of the oddest flights I ever had. So then from there I went to La Junta, Colorado, and landed at the airbase there. Because the front was coming in, I needed refueling again.

00:53:46.780 - 00:54:01.360

And it was starting to rain, and they wouldn't let me take off. They said, "Do you have de-icers on the airplane?" I said, "No, I don't." "Well, then you can't fly," because there was sleet and icing up in the clouds.

00:54:02.320 - 00:54:12.240

So I missed the front. I mean, the front came on. And it just so happened that you couldn't write a better script. I was sitting there and saying, "Well, how am I going to get to Denver?

00:54:12.550 - 00:54:22.680

I want to get there tonight. They're planning on me." Right at that time, they said, "Well, there's a plane coming in, a Continental Airlines plane coming in from Kansas City.

00:54:23.080 - 00:54:40.660

It's going to land here. you can get on that. So the plane landed. It happened to be my boyfriend was flying it. Harry, my boyfriend was flying it, said, "Harry, I got to get on the plane and get home." So I said, "Well, we're all loaded up." But he got me on the plane in the cockpit.

00:54:40.940 - 00:54:54.840

So then I finally got to Denver. Was this the colonel that had gone overseas? No, this was the airline captain. This was another one. But I never had such a time in getting anywhere.

00:54:55.850 - 00:55:03.940

Right. When you were, eventually you did get orders then

00:55:04.800 - 00:55:11.680

to go someplace else? Well I was still in Douglas when, yes, when I got orders to go to the

00:55:11.940 - 00:55:20.180

instrument school in Sweetwater. And that was a month also. And, um. And what was that like? Where did you live

00:55:20.280 - 00:55:31.980

when you went back to Sweetwater? bays again. And the wind and the sand and the rain and all that. And I enjoyed that. Kelly: Was it summer again? Litz: Pardon?

00:55:32.000 - 00:55:45.320

Kelly: Summertime again? Litz: Summertime, August. Kelly: Put your cots outside? Litz: Yep. And the wet sheets over us. So I passed that and got my—I think it was

00:55:45.180 - 00:56:14.420

called a green card at that time, as I remember. I got that, and I had a personal cross-country and went back to Denver. My boyfriend from overseas, the colonel who was in the CBI theater, flew into Denver right when I had a week's leave. Believe it or not, he hadn't written, and I said, "When is Jimmy going to be in Denver?" The Ouija board told me the dates,

00:56:14.460 - 00:56:23.160

and that's when I took my one week's leave. And he was there at that time. >> Wow. Tell us about that week. >> I couldn't believe it.

00:56:23.210 - 00:56:36.320

I mean, nobody believes this, but it was true. And so he had -- he was flying B-25s, flew a lot of combat missions, lots of bombs on the side, you know, very famous squadron.

00:56:36.320 - 00:56:47.600

He was a squadron leader. And he had to go on to California. So he said, "Well, come on, I'll let you fly my plane out there." I said, "Oh, wonderful," because I was on leave anyway.

00:56:48.480 - 00:57:09.760

So I flew his—of course, he was there in the co-pilot seat—flew his B-25 out to California, North American aircraft. We stopped at Douglas so they could see me flying the B-25. The press had been out there to meet him, and by that time they were all gone.

00:57:09.760 - 00:57:23.580

we were about an hour late. Can we stop? I have to do my eye. Okay. You go on out to California in the B-25 and what happened? So we stayed in California a little while. Then he wanted to go to San Francisco for

00:57:23.680 - 00:57:40.280

some reason. I can't remember what. So we flew up there for a while. By that time I had to go back and pick up my AT-6 in Denver and go back to Douglas. So did he bring you back to Denver? in the '25?

00:57:40.280 - 00:58:05.480

Lynn: No, I took the airlines. And then took my AT-6 back to Douglas. And let me see from there. Oh, I finally got some wonderful orders to go to Kingman, Arizona with a B-26s, my very favorite airplane. I love that airplane. Do you know why you were selected to go there?

00:58:05.600 - 00:58:20.420

Lynn: I have no idea. Kelly: How many other girls, or were there others from Douglas who went with you? Lane: I think I was the only one from Douglas. I think they felt I had put in my time and I should get something a little better.

00:58:20.550 - 00:58:34.840

Kelly: Do you recall when this was? Lane: I think it was September, as I remember. Kelly: When you got to Kingman, were there already other girls in training there? Or was it a...

00:58:34.840 - 00:58:47.580

I think we were the first ones. There were about, oh I don't know, five or six of us. And what happened once you got... where did you live? We lived in civilian quarters.

00:58:49.170 - 00:59:00.100

There never was any place for us to live. And this was... started out as a training. You went through training first. How long did the training last?

00:59:01.060 - 00:59:27.980

Well, about a week. And this was a tow target squadron for air-to-air gunnery practice. And we towed the target for the guys to shoot at from another plane. Were you aware of the reputation of that B-26? Oh yes. Yes. Some of the men didn't want to fly it. They wouldn't fly it. But I loved

00:59:27.980 - 00:59:50.400

it. The reason I loved it is because it was a real airplane. You had to fly it. You could not just sit there like somebody's grandmother or something. You know, the UC-78s just sit there. But the B-26 was a wonderful plane. Kelly: Once you finished the training, describe what a mission would be. Take us from the

00:59:50.400 - 01:00:17.320

time you got in the airplane and describe a mission. Well, I would get in and I started out as a co-pilot. Whoever was flying the plane would try to check us out and explain what we were doing. We would fly a two-hour mission at 10,000 feet and a two-hour mission at 20,000 feet.

01:00:17.710 - 01:00:29.440

Kelly: What was the crew made up of? The crew was the pilot, the co-pilot, the tow target operator, and that was it. And a crew chief? I suppose a crew chief, yeah.

01:00:30.100 - 01:00:43.280

I'm sure they would. And when you would get to 10,000 feet, what would happen? Well we'd go on a set course. We would fly to the shooting range, which was down toward Phoenix.

01:00:43.420 - 01:00:55.420

I think it still is a shooting range. And fly on a steady course and the other planes would shoot at our target. Kelly: What were the other airplanes? Beall: B-26s.

01:00:56.300 - 01:01:17.380

Kelly: And the B-26s would have gunners in them? Beall: Yes. And with tracer bullets so they could tell who shot what. Did they also use other types of aircraft to train the gunners?

01:01:19.450 - 01:01:29.320

McMillan: Well, at our base they didn't. At Kingman they didn't. Kelly: Okay. And then you would have a two-hour mission, and then you would go on up to 20,000 for

01:01:29.400 - 01:01:53.760

that same aircraft that was shooting. McMillan: And then to build up our time after we dropped the target, we would fly up over the Grand Canyon and look around a little bit just to build up our time. Kelly: How long did you do that?

01:01:53.760 - 01:02:16.840

Were you there until the WASPs were disbanded? McIntire: Just about. I do not know why they did this, but about two weeks before we disbanded, they transferred me to Luke Field, which was fighter training, single-engine fighters, of course. I like

01:02:16.900 - 01:02:34.840

to think it was so that they could give me some more personal cross-countries. They felt sorry for us, so they let me take an AT-6 and go anywhere I wanted. Dylan: Were some of the other girls transferred with you to Luke? Lowdermilk Horton: No.

01:02:34.840 - 01:02:45.180

Not that I recall. Okay. So, those last two weeks, how did you spend your time? Oh, flying the AT-6 and chatting with people.

01:02:46.940 - 01:02:59.360

There wasn't time to get checked out in any of the fighters. Okay. Let me back up to Kingman and ask what the social life was like there. It was about the same.

01:03:00.600 - 01:03:24.640

You had people you were interested in other places, right? Where were you and how did you hear about the—that the WASPs were going to be deactivated? I was at—let me see, I must have been in Sweetwater. How did that make you feel?

01:03:26.200 - 01:03:59.520

I wasn't too happy about it. I really enjoyed it. I felt that they should have let us continue because we were doing a good job. All the girls were doing a wonderful job. They had a good record compared to accidents, compared to cadets. Like at Douglas, Arizona, we killed a lot of cadets there. They'd lose an engine or something, they'd try to go back to the

01:03:59.540 - 01:04:21.080

field and they'd spin in and be killed. We had a lot of fatalities there. Kelly: Why do you think they did deactivate the WASP? Dyson: Well, they told us that the men were coming back from overseas and could now do the jobs that we were doing, although they didn't want to do them. They wanted us to

01:04:21.140 - 01:04:37.100

do the jobs that they didn't want to do. Somewhere, after you graduated from Avenger and before you were deactivated, did you get new uniforms of some kind? McMillan: I got part of a uniform.

01:04:39.420 - 01:04:57.160

I never did get a flying suit. They were so pretty, I guess they didn't think about us out in the West. But I got a blue uniform, yeah. When you were deactivated, did the airbase at Luke do anything special for the WASP?

01:04:57.680 - 01:05:05.740

No. [Laughter.] There weren't enough of us there. You just hung up your parachute, and who paid for you to go home?

01:05:06.300 - 01:05:18.460

I did. No insurance, no transportation, except if you could hitch a ride while you were a WASP. Did you go back to Denver? I went back to Denver, yeah.

01:05:18.460 - 01:05:42.760

Then tell me what you did next. Then I took a modeling job at one of the fine women's stores there, modeling, designer of fashions, just to be doing something. Then I met my first husband on New Year's Eve.

01:05:44.780 - 01:05:55.380

He was a commanding officer at Casper, Wyoming, which was some kind of a training base. I don't know what it was, some kind of a base. Anyway— This is not the colonel.

01:05:56.300 - 01:06:02.860

This is somebody else. No, this is another colonel. Okay. Anyway, I met him, and he was single.

01:06:04.100 - 01:06:34.080

We started seeing each other and meeting in Colorado Springs with my family. We were all sort of together, and he would come visit and vice versa. Then he was assigned to Clovis, New Mexico, which was the largest B-29 OTU, operational training unit, in the country as commanding officer.

01:06:35.870 - 01:06:54.440

We were married that June. Tell me about your wedding. Well, we were married in Denver at the little chapel at Lowry Field. Sort of a very military wedding with all the officers there. We had a reception at the Brown Palace Hotel.

01:06:56.020 - 01:07:20.060

What was your dress like? Well, it was white. I didn't care whether I had a big wedding or not, but my parents wanted a big wedding. Didnít matter to me. They brought the band up from Clovis to play the music. One of my dear friends, Mary Chase, who was the author of Harvey, I donít know

01:07:20.060 - 01:07:53.500

if youíve heard of Harvey, the play. She was our best friend for years and years. She act once in a while. She played Marlene Dietrich. She really was very good at it, too. Anyway, then we went to Chicago for about a week, I guess, on our honeymoon, and then came back to Clovis to live on the base there with the B-29s.

01:07:53.630 - 01:08:19.740

Kelly: When he was busy flying, how did you spend your time at Clovis? I like to sit around the swimming pool. They wanted me to go wrap bandages for the Red Cross and I did that a few times, but I had my cousin out there who was four years younger than I was and they were visiting at the base there. We wanted to sit and talk and visit

01:08:19.840 - 01:08:37.480

because they lived in Philadelphia and we didn't see each other very often. But, I wrapped some bandages and had some teas for the officers' wives, things like that. But there wasn't much else to do, because Clovis wasn't a very large town. There was nothing to do.

01:08:37.870 - 01:08:45.340

Kelly: Was he the CO of the base? Lowry: Yes. Kelly: Okay. And as the CO's wife, were you involved in the officers' wives club?

01:08:45.350 - 01:08:52.320

Lowry: Yes. Kelly: Play bridge? Lowry: No. No.

01:08:52.320 - 01:09:24.240

Kelly: Then how long did you stay at Clovis? McMillan: We were at Clovis, let me see, it must have been four or five months. He had just gotten back from the CBI. He was General Chenault's aide and went on all Chenault's that he did, meeting with Winston Churchill, things like that. He went on a war bond tour.

01:09:25.180 - 01:09:46.920

You know how they used to send the heroes on the war bond tours? He looked real nice with all his ribbons and all that stuff. He was a command pilot. Kelly: But you didn't get to go with him on those? Litz: Oh, no. I didn't know him then. Then after Clovis, he was assigned to the Pentagon

01:09:46.920 - 01:10:03.660

and we moved to Washington, D.C., got an apartment there, which I didn't like at all. I just didn't like it. Kelly: So how did you spend your time there when he was— Lowry: I went shopping. That's about all there was to do. I really wasn't interested

01:10:03.840 - 01:10:18.960

in anything else. I have to do my eye again. They closed Lowry Field, and I'm surprised— Kelly: She was born in Dimm. Lowry: Oh! Oh, my goodness, I loved Lowry. Kelly: When you left Clovis then, where did you go?

01:10:19.100 - 01:10:29.820

Where was he stationed? Klemski: Washington, D.C. at the Pentagon. Kelly: I guess what I meant to ask was when he finished, then what was his next assignment after the Pentagon?

01:10:30.120 - 01:10:50.720

Klemski: Well, I was not with him that long. We were after a big party one night at the Officers Club. He insisted on driving into town very drunk. I don't know if I should go into this. There were three other officers and my husband,

01:10:50.860 - 01:11:18.840

his name was Butch Morgan, and I was in the passenger seat. He was just speeding. He was going about 60 or 70 miles an hour downtown Washington. It was late at night. I don't know if you know those streetcars in Washington. They're built like a freight car. They're He didn't see the streetcar coming at right angles across our path.

01:11:19.240 - 01:11:33.260

I yelled something at him. He gave a quick turn, and we went crashing into the streetcar. Totaled the car. I slid down to the floor, and I just got in a brand-new beautiful mink coat, gorgeous.

01:11:33.360 - 01:11:46.240

It was covered with blood. I wasn't hurt, except I was cut, you know, all the blood. But I didn't go through the windshield. So they had to decide who was going to be driving the car so it wouldn't ruin his

01:11:46.460 - 01:11:59.820

career. So after that, as soon as I got out of the hospital, I was in the hospital for about four or five days. Nothing was broken, but I was pretty caught up.

01:12:01.740 - 01:12:22.020

One day, we'd been arguing. One day, I just packed up and left him a note, said, "I've had it. called the whole thing off and I got on the train and went up to New York to meet some friends up there. I said, "I'm through. I've had it." After that crash, he was an alcoholic.

01:12:22.220 - 01:12:32.980

That's what he was. Kelly: Was he injured? Jernigan: I didn't care. No, he was just bruised and cut a little bit. He didn't have to go to the hospital.

01:12:33.160 - 01:12:59.360

Kelly: When you got up to New York, then what did you do? Well, I met some friends of mine up there that I had known from various show business places. John Daly, who had a talk show at the time, a quiz show, and he was there, an Art Link letter was there. I wanted to stay a few days and visit. I called my cousin to

01:12:59.260 - 01:13:23.840

come over and would, you know, with me visit a bit from Philadelphia. So I stayed there and then after a few days, then another friend, another boyfriend of mine from Denver was there who was another alcoholic. Just, well, there's no point in going there. So then I went back to Denver again.

01:13:24.570 - 01:13:38.420

Kelly: Okay. not knowing what I was going to do next. Did your show business, earlier training motivate you to do anything in show business along the way?

01:13:38.440 - 01:13:58.680

Well that's when I got back to Denver after New York. Mary Chase had written this little play with the villain and the heroines and all that and the booing and the cheering and we took that through the Rocky Mountain region to the different air bases. It was a lot of fun.

01:13:59.120 - 01:14:09.620

What part did you play? I played the ingenue. Of course. And one night, one of the key characters didn't show up, one of the older ladies, so I took

01:14:09.700 - 01:14:34.660

that part. And I had an old wig and wrinkles on my face, and I was just horrified. Nobody looked at me, nobody said hello, none of the boys paid any attention to me. I just was was really horrified. So I never played her again. From there on I stuck with the Injunu. How long did you do that play?

01:14:35.820 - 01:15:07.880

It must have been several months. In the daytime I was modeling at the Newsteaders in Denver. funny thing happened there. Some of the girls that I didn't get along too well with at Kent school, they had all known each other for years and years, and here I was a newcomer. I was walking around beautifully dressed, furs, everything, the ultimate fashion. She

01:15:07.940 - 01:15:23.880

happened to come through the store, and I guess she didn't see all the price tags hanging on everything. She said, "Oh my goodness, Dory, you look so well. You look wonderful." She was just astounded that I looked so good, that here I was wearing all this wonderful expensive clothing, price tags all over the place.

01:15:24.720 - 01:15:40.320

She didn't notice, I guess. What was your favorite thing to model? Cocktail clothes, evening gowns. They wanted to put me in suits a lot of times because I was long-waisted, and the suit looked

01:15:40.400 - 01:15:57.080

better on long-waisted. But I got to pick my hats, my pretty hats, things like that. when I was at I Magnets, that was in California. That was after this time. So from Denver then you went back to California?

01:15:57.180 - 01:16:20.320

Back to California. And that s when I was modeling at I Magnets. And they would have these full page ads. They would have me come in like with the ostrich hats and I d model them and the artists would draw them for the ad and the rest of the time I would do the modeling on the floor, all the floors.

01:16:21.110 - 01:16:38.420

And when you were out there this time, what was your social life like? Did you meet somebody new? Well, I had a friend out there who was a radio announcer, so we were together a lot, went to all the clubs. He was a very good announcer. I don't know why he never became a really

01:16:38.420 - 01:17:00.740

national favorite, but I never heard about him. But there wasn't too much social—well, there was social life, yeah. I went to some of the polo games with some dates and various places through people I knew. Nothing serious. Kelly: And then what did you do next?

01:17:02.640 - 01:17:15.020

Let me see. This is going to be a dull spot because I can't think of what I did next. Well, somewhere you met somebody else. I'm trying to think.

01:17:15.640 - 01:17:24.000

That's what I did next. Got my eye again cut. Then at a party, oh, my father wanted me. They had moved out there, too.

01:17:25.260 - 01:17:36.700

He had a few ideas about me setting speed records like Jacqueline Cochran, land speed records. I said, "Well, that's fine. I'll give it a try."

01:17:36.700 - 01:17:49.800

I said, "Where's the money coming from?" Well, he was going to raise the money. I did a little time in an AT-6 out there. It got ready to fly a P-51 for the records.

01:17:51.740 - 01:18:03.580

Suddenly, there wasn't any more money. I said, "You know, Daddy, maybe you don't realize that Jacqueline Cochran was married to a multimillionaire. It takes a lot of money."

01:18:03.960 - 01:18:25.720

During that time, I happened to meet my second husband, who was chief test pilot at Douglas Aircraft at the time. He did international sales, too. We met just before the air races in '47.

01:18:28.120 - 01:18:43.760

Another friend of mine—this is the colonel that was in CBI—had built an HE-6 for the races in Cleveland, the national air races. He wanted me to fly his plane. I said, "Sure, I'll fly."

01:18:44.240 - 01:18:55.000

He and his friends did all the work. I said, "Now, are you sure this thing is safe?" "Oh, yes, positively." He took all the instruments out, even the compass.

01:18:55.740 - 01:19:18.360

All I had was an airspeed and something else, inches of mercury. I had to follow him in another airplane to get to Cleveland. So we got to Cleveland, and we got there and we had to qualify in laps to get in the race. There were supposed to be eight girls in it.

01:19:21.420 - 01:19:31.740

One of the girls was a WASP. Her name was McGrath, Mickey McGrath. I didn't know her. She had another kind of plane.

01:19:32.580 - 01:19:51.760

One of the girls had a plane that was rebuilt by Ranger Engine Company. They put an inline engine instead of a radial. My friend had put an inline engine in my plane. Of course, hers was in tip-top shape.

01:19:52.540 - 01:20:12.600

We flew qualifying rounds, and I was just at the bottom of the qualifying, 200 and something. I said, "What's the matter with this plane?" I checked it over, his friends, and they found out the carburetor heat was on while I was qualifying.

01:20:13.420 - 01:20:20.700

I had no control over it. I just got in it. So naturally it slowed it down. I said, "The thing seems to be shaking."

01:20:20.700 - 01:20:31.260

And they looked, "Oh, the carburetor heat was on." I said, "Well, isn't that good to find out? I'm damn lucky I got in the race." So anyway, we flew that race.

01:20:31.320 - 01:20:54.120

That was another adventure. I was way on the outside. We went from a standing start. I got some good press on that. They said the plane jumped into the air like a jackrabbit. I did. I got a real good start. I was on the very outside, but I managed to get to the first pylon first. I cut somebody

01:20:54.240 - 01:21:23.960

else out at the first pylon. I cut inside. When I came past the stands, I cut a few more people out at the next pylon, I was leading. This was a closed-course pylon race, and seventy-five miles, three or four pylons. My plane started shaking the second lap, but I thought, "Well, it has been shaking." And third lap, I think it was the third lap, this girl with the other

01:21:24.000 - 01:21:38.220

Ranger engine passed me because her plane was better. There was no way I could catch there was no way I could cut her out. So I was second. And then starting the fourth lap, I got past the stands and started toward the next pylon,

01:21:39.100 - 01:21:47.220

and the engine quit. You know, treetop level. And I switched tanks, that didn't work. I switched back, that didn't work.

01:21:47.320 - 01:22:05.520

Nothing worked. So I thought I could maybe get back to the field and land at the field at the Cleveland—whatever it was where they had the air races. I couldn't make it. I was coming down. So I had to find a place to land and quick. I

01:22:05.680 - 01:22:26.560

remember passing this girl coming the other way in the race and she glared at me because I was coming back the other way toward the field. So I found a place and the last thing I remember, I had some guardian angels or something, they had big tall trees around all their fields there. I was headed right for those trees, right smack for the trees.

01:22:27.340 - 01:22:39.680

I must have pulled it right up and over the trees and, bam, just came down flat, knocked me out unconscious. I had a helmet on, which they insisted I wear. I didn't want to wear it, but they insisted.

01:22:40.640 - 01:22:52.420

I was unconscious for a little while. When I woke up, there were some farmers standing at a distance away. They said, "You want to go back to the field?" I said, "Yes."

01:22:52.420 - 01:23:02.320

So I did. They took me back to the field. All the press, the race was just finishing, all the press rushed over to me instead of the winner of the race.

01:23:03.770 - 01:23:13.300

So you were the star after all? I was the star, even with the crash landing, that was my second one. Okay, we're going to change, change tape. Okay, I'll do my eye again.

01:23:13.560 - 01:23:36.100

Oh yeah, oh I'm sorry. Did you ever enter other air races? No, after that we headed back to Denver. Well, we stopped in Chicago to talk about getting corporate sponsorship. And I thought they had something they used to call Tony Home

01:23:36.200 - 01:23:55.580

Perms. I don't know if you've heard of them. And we talked to those people and they said, "Well, change your name to Tony." I said, "All right, that's all right. And we'll sponsor you and we'll give you $20,000 a year to do that." And I said, "Well, that's not enough." I said, "To fly a racing plane like that, you need more money than that."

01:23:55.840 - 01:24:17.300

They said, "Well, that's all we can do," so I didn't get that. We went back to Denver, and I saw my test pilot from Douglas Aircraft, not Douglas, Arizona. He said, "You are never going to fly in another air race as long as you live, because it's

01:24:17.360 - 01:24:32.820

too dangerous." And I said, "Well, all right." And so then we were married about a month later. And of course we did publicity with the DC-6 airliner, which was new at the time, publicity

01:24:33.020 - 01:24:39.300

shots. And— Did he have been in service? No, he was a test pilot the whole time.

01:24:39.980 - 01:24:53.000

He was with Douglas for thirty years. And— Did you ever fly with him? Oh yes, yes. I wasn't supposed to, but I did.

01:24:53.300 - 01:25:19.220

Okay. So then did you live in California? We lived in California, but he had the contract on a—I don't know if you've ever heard of the Skyrocket. He had the contract to do the testing on that. And Yeager had broken the sound barrier a few months before that. Then Johnny Martin was his name, was to do

01:25:19.300 - 01:25:44.100

the testing on it. We went out to Murrock. It was Murrock Dry Lake then. I think it is some different name now, some field. We lived out there, which was— Kelly: Same as Edwards? Edwards, that's it. Senior Monument. We lived in a little shack out there, which was

01:25:45.060 - 01:26:07.720

almost, well it was about like Sweetwater. The wind blowing every day, but I wanted to be with him. He was my husband, I loved him. Did you become friends with the Yeagers? No, they weren't around there. We went to Poncho's for dinner occasionally. You've

01:26:07.780 - 01:26:13.780

probably heard of Poncho's. Kelly: You can tell us. Lowdermilk Honstein: You what? Kelly: You can tell us. We want to hear about that.

01:26:14.470 - 01:26:40.460

Lowdermilk Honstein: Well, I'm not quite sure what it was, but she had sort of a restaurant and a bar, an aviation place where the pilots would come and drink and have pretty good food. If anyone was killed, any of the pilots, they would have their picture up on the wall. The wall was covered with pictures out at a place like that. I felt a little uncomfortable

01:26:40.640 - 01:27:01.340

because there were quite a few girls sitting around. I wasn't sure why they were there. We didn't go too often, but we did go there occasionally. Dori, can I ask you back, since you lost one husband who was into alcohol, what effect did that have on you?

01:27:01.990 - 01:27:14.680

Dori: It didn't have any effect on me. It didn't really bother me. I think I really didn't want to get married anyway. My parents wanted me to get married, get me out of the house or something.

01:27:17.680 - 01:27:27.440

Did Pancho ever know what you did? Did she know you were a WASP? Yeah, Johnny told her. And all the other pilots, all the other test pilots were sitting around, they all knew.

01:27:28.220 - 01:27:56.540

And of course, he said that he and the Douglas people would fly these planes first and test them to be sure that they were safe for the Air Force to fly, which was one of those things. How did you spend your time when he was flying? Well, at first, I went shopping and went to fashion shows and just enjoyed myself.

01:27:56.780 - 01:28:24.720

We would go to Vegas very often, always for our anniversary. We were married in Las Vegas, Nevada, because we both liked to gamble. When you were married in Vegas, were some friends there with you? Yes. He knew all, well not all, but most of the people who owned the casinos at that time,

01:28:25.940 - 01:28:41.280

which was not the corporate field. What was the big hotel during that time? The Flamingo. It had just opened, and that was about it. There was the El Rancho, and It was called the Last Frontier.

01:28:42.090 - 01:28:58.400

They had a beautiful little chapel, a little—looked like an old-fashioned wooden chapel. That's where we were married. Kelly: Had you met his family? Dyson: His father had died when he was young, and yes, I met his mother.

01:29:01.350 - 01:29:21.120

Kelly: Then how long did you stay at Edwards? We stayed there about five, six months. Then he got sick of it, and of course I was sick of it, too. He said he thought he would turn over the rest of his contract to another pilot.

01:29:22.020 - 01:29:33.360

It was a good contract. I think it was $100,000 for that one airplane, but all the testing, quite a few hours. I said, "Well, you're going to give all this up. "Why go back to Douglas?"

01:29:35.000 - 01:29:48.960

Well, he said, "I have to see what's going on back there." So that was all. He gave that up, and we moved back to Beverly Hills. We had a lot of friends who were agents.

01:29:49.320 - 01:30:06.620

One of them was Lana Turner's agent, and he knew everybody. Johnny used to date all the starlets when they needed a date. We had quite a social life. Macombo and Ciro's and all along the Sunset Strip, which was really nice at that time.

01:30:08.020 - 01:30:43.480

Had wonderful restaurants. It was really classy, shall we say, at that time, before the hippies came. Then after that, I got pregnant. From that time on, I was busy with children, two boys, Den mother, Cub Scout Den mother, Little League baseball, which I did like. I liked that. All that school, all that stuff. Our neighbors, we moved to Rolling Hills, built

01:30:43.540 - 01:31:13.500

a house. It's on the Palos Verdes Peninsula. Each house there, I think it was the first a fenced city in the country that I know of. It was all fenced. We had guards at the gate, and each house had to have an acre, at least one acre. So the reason we moved there was because Mr. Douglas, the old man, Johnny called him Boss, I called him Mr. D. But he and his

01:31:13.520 - 01:31:40.160

wife had five acres on the top of the hill, and they had a beautiful home there, just gorgeous. Our house was down the hill about, oh, a half a mile. We built a house there. We could see all the lights of L.A. every night. The whole city of L.A., all up Redondo Beach, clear up the coastline. That was when all this Earth Mother stuff came in, you know,

01:31:40.280 - 01:32:03.140

the kids. Our neighbors had horses. I used to ride one woman's horse for her because she was afraid of her horse. She had an Arabian horse and she was afraid of it. She really didn't like to ride, but he liked to ride, so I exercised her horse for her. So that's about all we did there. We had a little social life there with the local

01:32:03.260 - 01:32:16.100

people, a lot of nice people. Kelly: As far as school activities with your children, were you into that? Yes, PTA. Danville Room Mothers?

01:32:16.460 - 01:32:32.440

Room Mother, yes. Everything like that, I did that. And Don Jr. and his wife lived up in Cheviot Hills while we were down in Rolling Hills. And she said, "Why don't you come up and join this thing that she belonged to, this

01:32:32.460 - 01:32:50.500

social club?" I said, "Well, I can't drive all that way, and besides, I'm down there with the kids." trips to Acapulco. This was kind of interesting. The president of Mexico at that time, President

01:32:50.580 - 01:33:14.840

Aleman, had converted a PT boat for his own private yacht, and he thought Douglas was going to build a facility in Mexico. He invited Don Jr. and his wife and Johnny and I down there and entertained us. We saw the cliff divers and were entertained on his yacht. Went sail fishing, deep sea fishing, that was fun.

01:33:15.980 - 01:33:34.120

But he never did build a facility there. Kelly: As your children were growing up, how did you spend vacation time with them? Dyson: Oh, we would drive different places, just visit. Kelly: Did you go camping?

01:33:34.480 - 01:33:48.980

Dyson: Yes, we rented a camper and took a camping once. At once was enough. [Laughter] Kelly: Did your mom and dad, did those children get to learn about their grandparents or interact

01:33:49.080 - 01:33:55.860

with them? Dyson: Oh, yes. We would take them to dinner at least once a week, to all the restaurants in L.A., you know, the nice places.

01:33:56.940 - 01:34:30.980

They would come down for barbecues, you know, outdoor barbecues to our place. Kelly: And eventually, your husband retired there? Well, no. We separated. I have a problem. I get bored very quickly. I always have. It wasn't working out, so we separated. Sold the house, and I rented a house in Rolling

01:34:31.180 - 01:34:50.360

Hills so the boys wouldn't have to change schools and could keep their friends and have some degree of solidarity or stability. We would take them to Vegas. They went to Vegas with us.

01:34:51.800 - 01:34:57.900

They enjoyed that. Kelly: When they were growing up, what were they interested in? Were they interested in flying? Reid: No.

01:34:59.480 - 01:35:18.200

Kelly: Were they interested in horses? Dyson: No. I gave them a couple of lessons, and they just sat there like lumps on a log. They didn't like it. They didn't like the horse. So, I thought, "Well, maybe this is something for girls. Girls like horses better than men, evidently." So, they were

01:35:18.280 - 01:35:44.860

doing the Little League baseball and the next league, Pony League, and that was about it. Kelly: And then you lived there until when? Dyson: Well, while I was there, my husband had thirteen heart attacks in five years while we were still at the big house that we built.

01:35:46.880 - 01:36:06.420

I took care of him all that time, couldn't do anything. He did go back to work for international sales. couldn't fly anymore, of course. I think it just got to the point where it just was too much. Maybe if I could have had two or three months by myself or something, it would

01:36:06.480 - 01:36:44.880

have been different. Anyway, from there, I had gotten my real estate broker's license at night just to get out of the house. From there, I went to work for a wagon seller in Durst Securities Corporation, managing a high-rise office building in downtown L.A. We moved to South Pasadena, the boys and I. Then we moved to Glendale to be closer to my work.

01:36:46.050 - 01:37:04.760

Kelly: How close were you to your mom and dad? Where were they living? They lived just on the edge of Beverly Hills. We were pretty close. What were your boys interested in? Well, my one my younger son is

01:37:06.840 - 01:37:21.560

interested in music. Music is his life and he is an absolutely excellent guitar player. He could play with anybody, any style

01:37:21.560 - 01:37:48.000

to anything, anything at all. He's been with several bands. My other son wasn't interested much of anything but having fun, which sort of bugged me because it went against my grain. Their father wasn't too much help. Kelly: And then the third son?

01:37:49.100 - 01:37:53.560

No, the second son, the older one. Did you just have two? Just two, yeah. Oh, okay.

01:37:54.200 - 01:38:08.660

And the one that loves music, what is he doing now? He's still with his music because there's always new equipment. He'll get something and say, "I get this, I have everything I need." Next month, something new comes out.

01:38:10.500 - 01:38:38.260

And now they're doing it with the computers. can play music to the computer and the computer will print out the printed music unbelievably. I can t believe it. But he doesn t have that yet. Thank goodness. Yeah, she does. You do that? Oh my goodness, how exciting. Naftali How long did you work in real estate? Was

01:38:38.320 - 01:38:46.800

that a real love of yours or you just No, I needed the money and I wanted something to do. I got alimony and... Did you meet any interesting people? Pardon?

01:38:47.140 - 01:39:13.020

Meet any interesting people? Oh, yes. Yes. I did the leasing and just the whole managing. They were refurbishing the building. I oversaw all the reconstruction and building and things like that. Went out to get new tenants. I think I went out to every office building in downtown L.A. except

01:39:13.020 - 01:39:45.320

ones, and trying to get tenants for the building, for the man who owned it. It was quite an experience. It was fun. Kelly: How did you end up in Phoenix? Well, after that, let's see. I had an accident there. I fell downstairs and was in the hospital

01:39:45.460 - 01:40:13.360

for a while. And, in that time, he got someone to replace me in the building. So, after that, I went to Europe to visit some of my relatives. Had a wonderful time. They live in Germany and my cousin speaks German and French and English. So we got around very well. You know, it makes a difference when you speak the language. They treat you differently. And she would

01:40:13.360 - 01:40:42.040

come visit over here. Oh, before that, my older son was married to this girl he thought he loved, and they went to live in Seattle. He said, "Oh, Mom, come on. You and Mike come on up here and live here. We can all be a nice big family." So I thought, "Well, all right. Try that." So we went to Seattle, and the rain! I had never been there. I couldn't

01:40:42.140 - 01:41:06.340

stand it. I got so depressed. I said, "I just cannot take this." Two months of the year when I got there, it was wonderful. Beautiful weather, weather perfect, but then from then on it was rain. It rained on the Fourth of July, couldn't have any fireworks, so I said, "I'm not staying here." In the meantime, the younger son had left to see his girlfriend

01:41:06.520 - 01:41:27.960

in L.A. because he hated Seattle, too. I shouldn't say hated, but he didn't like it. I said, I'm not staying here." And that's when I came to Sun City West. Did you have friends here or you just picked it out? Just had one of those trips where they say, "Come and stay with us, see if you like it."

01:41:28.160 - 01:41:58.300

So I came and stayed a week and found I liked it and stayed. Fifteen years. And how do you spend your time now, Dorie? I swim a lot, sit in the jacuzzi, go to Las Vegas a lot. They have gambling here on the Indian reservations, but it's not the kind I like. They have poker clubs here, but it's

01:41:58.380 - 01:42:20.980

penny-handy. I played three hours one evening with this group and won four dollars. Everybody not the way I like to play. So I go to Vegas quite a bit. Are you good at it? Yes, I'm very good at it. I used to play in the blackjack tournaments over there too,

01:42:22.400 - 01:42:52.120

where the big tournaments. The first place prize was $100,000. I never won it though. I got third once, which was only $30,000. I travel a great deal ever since I've been here. I've been everywhere I want to go and I've done just about everything I want to do except write my memoirs. I've been at that for ten years now. I need something to

01:42:52.180 - 01:43:13.640

give me a boost. And now, what makes you happy? Well, seeing my family happy, seeing my friends happy, being able to be with other people and possibly cheer them up if they re depressed. Although everyone around here tries to be

01:43:13.720 - 01:43:34.800

happy. You say, How are you? They don t tell you their troubles. They smile and say, I you know, all right. Because nobody wants to hear your sad story, you know. Dori, as you look back over your life, you've done so many things. What is the one thing that you are most proud of?

01:43:38.620 - 01:44:05.000

I think being a WASP. I really am proud of that. And what brings on that pride? The pride that we were pioneers, certainly, and I don't believe we were out to prove anything. We just liked to fly. And the airplane doesn't know whether a man is flying it or a woman.

01:44:06.900 - 01:44:24.360

And we did a good job. We served our country. And I think we were quite useful. And was serving the country an important? I wanted to do something for the war, yes, because all my boyfriends, everybody I knew was doing something.

01:44:25.220 - 01:44:44.480

I didn't just want to sit home and model or do something like that or be an actress. It was the WASP that I'm most proud of. What is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP organization that she formed?

01:44:45.820 - 01:45:06.000

Well, she certainly was determined. She got it done, whatever it took, she got it done. She made it possible for all of us to fly military aircraft. There were some glitches here and there.

01:45:06.080 - 01:45:28.680

I think some of the assignments were rather ridiculous, but that wasn't her fault. I don't know who made the assignments. some of the girls were assigned to go to B-25 school and they never had any twin-engine flight training, things like that. But that was minor, so they were transferred. I think

01:45:28.760 - 01:45:48.880

she did an excellent job. It's too bad she couldn't have kept it going. Kelly: What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? Well, I think the fact that we were pioneers, we were women doing a job that was considered a man's job.

01:45:56.190 - 01:46:09.360

And it's too bad at the time, of course today they have women captains on the airlines even, but at that time they wouldn't even consider it. They said, "Well, you can be a flight attendant." I said, "No, thank you.

01:46:10.700 - 01:46:31.660

No." But I think we should be in history, because we were pioneers. They had this trip to Russia, or the USSR at the time. This was before Russia fell for some of the girl pilots.

01:46:32.640 - 01:46:50.680

Have you heard about that trip? Well it was put on by this people-to-people organization that General Eisenhower started. He thought if the people from different countries could talk to each other, rather than just the leaders, that maybe there wouldn't be so much fighting and wars.

01:46:51.480 - 01:47:11.080

So anyway, we had this group of about forty girls, and we went to—girls?—older women. We went to Russia and talked to the women pilots over there, because they had women pilots too. Only their women pilots would take their—they looked sort of like a stearman to me, their

01:47:11.120 - 01:47:23.380

little airplanes—at night and drop bombs on the German camps and fortifications and things, keep them awake, make them nervous. They were wonderful gals. Of course, we had a translator.

01:47:24.940 - 01:47:40.520

We had a wonderful time over there. Kelly: Oh, that's great. But it's unfortunate that we didn't have the opportunity that the girls have today, but I think we were the first step toward the opportunity that they have.

01:47:40.700 - 01:48:09.840

Kelly: In your lifetime, there have been happy times, but there must have been some sad times. What got you through the sad times? "Just the thought that I deserved better than that and I was going to do whatever it took to get it." I did have something else. My eye is going again. I did have some bad

01:48:09.920 - 01:48:42.840

times when I was very, very broke. I was no longer getting child support because my boys were old enough to be off that. My husband quit paying me alimony, and he was retired. He wasn't making as much. I could have taken him to court, but it just wasn't worth it. So I got a job at the Post Office, Postal Service. You can imagine such a thing. I couldn't

01:48:42.840 - 01:49:08.940

at the time. But it was computerized mail sorting. You tapped out, you probably maybe seen on TV at the Christmas time, they always bring it on. You tap out a little thing when the letters go by like this, which carrier it goes to. And I sort of enjoyed it. It was sort of fun. I worked the graveyard shift from 11 at night until 7.30 in the morning.

01:49:10.180 - 01:49:27.720

so I didn't have any social life. I did that for six years. Kelly: Where were you then? Lowdermilk Honstein In Pasadena, California. But I managed to build up a little cushion for myself and a little money. I was down to just nothing. I don't

01:49:27.720 - 01:49:55.740

know what happened all of a sudden. Both parents got very ill. I had to take care of them. They had no income. They had no anything. I was having other troubles with one son with drugs. So everything just sort of went down. I thought, "Well, I deserve better than this. I'm not going to take this. I'm going to get myself up again." That's when I

01:49:55.860 - 01:50:19.400

took the post office job and worked my way back. I'd eat lunch at three o'clock in the morning in my car in the rain and that was my lowest point. So I got that through with. That was the worst time in my life, yeah. Interviewer And your son came out of that okay?

01:50:19.720 - 01:50:38.260

He, I'm not sure. He's been through rehab several times, but I don't know. I really don't know. He tells me he doesn't, but I'm not sure.

01:50:42.040 - 01:51:06.760

Of course, that was a horrible time. bring these horrible friends on drugs over at the house. They'd steal things from me. I wasn't the only one. Everybody in the Rolling Hills had a son like that. They were all bad and riding motorcycles and all that stuff. That was a bad time for me.

01:51:07.800 - 01:51:27.840

Let me ask you this, as a child growing up and in your later years, were you ever exposed to religion? Not too much, no. We would go to church on Palm Sunday and Easter and Christmas time, but that was about it.

01:51:30.240 - 01:51:54.820

If you could say something to children in the future, generations, that you will never know, that might encourage them to follow their dreams or to do something of some importance or not important, but something they really want to do and they don't have the courage, what would you say to them to encourage them?

01:51:58.380 - 01:52:08.880

I would say if there's something that you really want to do, go ahead and do it. Don't be afraid to take a chance. If you fail, that doesn't matter. At least you tried.

01:52:09.780 - 01:52:21.800

But if you really want to do it, if you try hard enough, you can do it, if you really want to do it. Is there anything that I have left out? I don't think so.

01:52:22.920 - 01:52:57.240

Any stories or anything that you would like to say on camera that I might have overlooked? McMillan: I had another crash landing with a P-51. My father wanted me to get in, as I told you, break these flying records of Jacqueline Cochran's. This agent that we had had a friend who built up his B-51 for a racing plane, and it was

01:52:57.300 - 01:53:05.080

beautiful. I have a picture of it here. He drew it for me, and he wanted me to fly it. I thought it was fine.

01:53:05.140 - 01:53:17.360

It's like this other one that's built up. I took it up. I had never flown a 51 before, and I really was a little hesitant, because I hadn't flown an air-cooled engine before.

01:53:17.730 - 01:53:31.560

I thought, "If something breaks, what do you do?" With radial, I know what you can do, but with air-cooled engines—anyway, I came down and got on the runway. I think I brought it in a little fast.

01:53:31.560 - 01:53:44.680

I brought it in like a B-26. Not quite like that. You know about that. 150 miles an hour on final approach. I was running out of runway, so I jammed on the

01:53:44.800 - 01:54:09.460

brakes. At the other end of the runway—this was Santa Monica Airport, where Douglas had their hangar buildings there—the other end of the runway was about a, oh, I'd say a sixty-foot drop cliff. I wasn't about to go over that with that airplane, so I jammed on the brakes and went right up on its nose. They tell me it went back and forth like this,

01:54:09.700 - 01:54:36.360

not knowing which way to go for a while. Finally, it settled down and settled down, just bent the prop a little. Then the props. He later fixed it up again. It went on to the Cleveland Air Races again and then went into a pylon race, one fellow flew it. Then suddenly there was a bad luck

01:54:36.400 - 01:54:54.940

airplane, something happened to it and he had to jump out, parachute out. The plane crashed and was just demolished. It was too bad he had a lot of money in it, too. Anything else? Any other good stories? Do you have a favorite word?

01:54:55.860 - 01:55:25.100

word? I've thought about that one. Do you have any suggestions? No, I have several. No, I really don't. I'd say horses, airplanes, men, parties. >> In that order? >> Not necessarily.

01:55:27.800 - 01:55:39.920

>> Oh, Dori, we really appreciate it. This is a most unusual life that you've led. >> And we're not done. >> And you're not finished, you bet.

01:55:40.060 - 01:55:48.560

>> Well, I've got to write those memoirs. >> Lots more to go, but thank you so much for taking the time to do this. >> Well, you're so nice to do this.

01:55:48.630 - 01:56:00.240

I mean, it's certainly wonderful that you're doing it. I think it's absolutely great. And I think somebody should definitely give you a grant. If you find somebody, send them our way.

01:56:00.240 - 01:56:06.980

Oh, no. Tony, should we go to Tony, her home firm? Yeah. I don't think they exist anymore.

01:56:07.500 - 01:56:11.460

So many years ago. That was a wonderful idea, though. It was. It was a good idea.

01:56:13.200 - 01:56:15.140

I wrote down, Bick, Bick, Bick, Bick.